Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-11-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 wayland_ Yeah, I tried preferences, but I think you have to have something somewhere if you actually want to override the document's fonts :)
00:02 wayland_ (Seamonkey on Linux)
00:02 wayland_ But I found a better way
00:02 wayland_ Google image search on "korean" :)
00:02 ruoso joined #perl6
00:02 masak yeah, was going to suggest that.
00:02 wayland_ Reminds me of Tolkien's Elvish :)
00:03 masak really? :)
00:03 wayland_ Korean
00:04 wayland_ Because the shapes for similar sounds are similar to each other
00:04 masak aye.
00:04 wayland_ Although that violates George Bernard Shaw's principles for alphabet design :)
00:05 masak true. though I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who writes in Shavian.
00:05 wayland_ :)
00:06 wayland_ I wonder if these sorts of things happen on non-Perl channels :)
00:07 masak probably.
00:07 wayland_ Mongolian is kinda cool :)
00:07 masak ...but I find that #perl6 has some of the most interesting and knowledgeable people
00:07 masak wayland_: aye, it is.
00:07 masak you gotta hand it to anyone who still does it vertically.
00:08 wayland_ well, yes, of course!  We're here, aren't we? :)
00:08 masak no comment :)
00:08 wayland_ s/:)/:-p/
00:09 wayland_ (ie. I'm being silly :) )
00:09 masak aye.
00:09 bacek joined #perl6
00:09 * masak yawns
00:09 masak time to hit the sack, methinks.
00:10 masak wayland_: been nice talking writing systems with ya.
00:11 wayland_ bye :)
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06:41 azawawi rakudo: say "good morning";
06:41 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[good morning␤]
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09:25 masak reading STD_syntax_highlight. what does "redspans traversal" mean?
09:31 masak @tell azawawi For some reason, ETOOMUCHTIME aborts on the first test file for me. Any idea why? http://nopaste.snit.ch/14441
09:31 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:37 * masak suddenly understands that the .contains method ins't quite identical to :exists after all
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10:20 meppl good morning
10:27 masak y0
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11:03 * DarkAkorn pokes moritz_
11:04 DarkAkorn don't suppose anyone else in here knows a lot about the Irc log bot and feels like helping a newb?
11:08 masak DarkAkorn: I'd say I have slightly-above-newb knowledge of the IRC log bot.
11:09 jauaor joined #perl6
11:09 masak DarkAkorn: moritz_ is usually offline during the weekends, either explicitly or implicitly
11:09 jauaor hello
11:09 DarkAkorn ah
11:09 masak jauaor: hi
11:09 jauaor Hi masak
11:09 jauaor :-)
11:09 masak :)
11:09 DarkAkorn well, dependancies are installed, files uploaded, and .conf files I'm pretty sure edited correctly
11:09 masak jauaor: happy November!
11:09 DarkAkorn and... well, what from there?
11:09 DarkAkorn this is my first time manually installing anything
11:09 jauaor Happy November to you too masak !!!
11:09 jauaor :-D
11:09 masak DarkAkorn: you're trying to get it running?
11:10 masak jauaor: :D
11:10 DarkAkorn yes
11:10 * jauaor thinks it's a good moment to start with perl6
11:10 masak jauaor: you bet!
11:10 masak DarkAkorn: you haven't had any errors or anything?
11:10 jauaor masak: I got all the weekend free!!!
11:10 Alias_ Do sockets work yet?
11:10 * jauaor happy
11:10 masak jauaor: you could dedicate it to doing good for the Perl 6 community. :)
11:11 DarkAkorn masak: no, Alias_: how do I tell?
11:11 Alias_ I wasn't asking you :)
11:11 * masak leaves helping DarkAkorn into the competent hands of Alias_
11:11 masak oh.
11:11 masak or not.
11:11 DarkAkorn lol
11:12 jauaor masak: On my way .. and I do hope so ... :-)
11:12 masak DarkAkorn: well, from my vantage point, seems you'd want to start something.
11:12 * jauaor needs to get updated first
11:12 DarkAkorn aye
11:13 DarkAkorn I imagine I need to run perl (something) from ssh, just not sure what
11:13 masak jauaor: I was planning to write an MD5 sum calculator in Literate Perl 5 today, and then port it to Perl 6. maybe you'll want to help.
11:13 masak DarkAkorn: me neither, unfortunately.
11:13 jauaor masak: awesome!.....
11:13 DarkAkorn damn
11:13 masak DarkAkorn: you could find a README file or something, perhaps.
11:13 jauaor masak: Sure ... mmm.. but .... mm... remember I don't know much about perl6 :-P
11:13 masak DarkAkorn: otherwise, just wait for the return of moritz_
11:13 jauaor just poked through a few examples
11:14 DarkAkorn hehe, readme gives no help at all
11:14 masak jauaor: I'm going to lunch now. be back in an hour. read up on Perl 6 in the meantime. :)
11:14 DarkAkorn says to come here and ask moritz_ if I have trouble :P
11:14 jauaor masak: Great!
11:14 jauaor masak: enjoy
11:14 masak DarkAkorn: then the README needs to be updated. fill it with insights from your trials :)
11:14 masak lunch &
11:14 DarkAkorn oh well, my ssh access is unfortunately unavailable atm due to forgetting my pw to this particular server :(
11:15 DarkAkorn lol, if I get the chance I will, I guess I'll check back later though, thanks masak
11:15 DarkAkorn later ya'll
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11:50 jauaor mm.. basic question
11:51 jauaor =<> eq <STDIN> ?
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12:32 * masak back
12:32 masak jauaor: aye, it does.
12:39 masak jauaor: in case you haven't found them already: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/do​cs/Perl6/Perl5/Differences.pod and http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/
12:45 jauaor oh, no, will check
12:45 jauaor hanks masak
12:45 jauaor thanks*
12:45 jauaor brb
12:45 masak np
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12:45 masak I'll be starting my Perl 5 MD5 implementation now.
12:51 araujo masak, go :-D
12:51 * araujo updating the firmware of his other box
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12:58 jauaor :-)
13:06 * jauaor checks these links carefully
13:07 jauaor masak: I know perl ... intermediate I'd say ...
13:07 jauaor but I don't like many things of it, that I see are fixed/improved in perl6
13:07 masak jauaor: sounds good.
13:08 masak I must admit that my infatuation with Perl 5 is still pretty solid. but Perl 6 (in its idealized goal state) is indeed great.
13:09 jauaor masak: I am mainly a Haskell programmer ... and I can see Perl 6 is taking quite a lot from it
13:09 masak aye.
13:10 masak though the two are still fairly different.
13:12 jauaor well, .... I guess nobody expects to get something similar to Haskell :-P
13:12 jauaor But I personally been looking for a nice scripting language to extend Haskell apps
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13:12 jauaor So a language with similar features would be great
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14:05 masak one thing about going back to coding Perl 5 is that Perl 5 feels like it has fairly small number of operators :)
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14:13 jauaor haha , I can see perl6 increases that number
14:14 literal Perl 6 is the kingdom of operators
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14:18 masak Perl 6 is often called an operator-oriented language.
14:18 * jauaor has noticed so
14:19 masak jauaor: I now have a running Perl 5 implementation of md5 digesting
14:19 masak wanna see?
14:19 jauaor masak: yes!
14:19 pugs_svn r22845 | masak++ | [ext/MD5-Digest] initial Perl 5 implementation, to be ported
14:20 masak it runs, but it doesn't produce the same result as `echo -n | md5`
14:20 masak I don't know why.
14:21 masak oh, and the algorithm is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5#Pseudocode
14:21 lambdabot Title: MD5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
14:24 jauaor haha nice masak
14:25 masak can it be that I still haven't grokked big-endian and little-endian?
14:25 * jauaor can see some perl6 changes
14:26 masak indeed
14:26 masak aye, seems I don't yet understand what little-endian means
14:27 masak rule of thumb from now on: "big-endian" = "big end first"
14:27 masak I'll have to reverse some strings in the program :)
14:28 * jauaor trying to get a perl6 implementation on this box
14:28 jauaor masak: the links for pugscode.org don't work?
14:29 masak does here.
14:29 jauaor mm...
14:30 jauaor The Download link doesn't work
14:30 jauaor for me ...
14:30 masak jauaor: which one, http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs ?
14:30 lambdabot Title: pugs - Revision 22845: /
14:31 masak lambdabot thinks it works, too :)
14:31 jauaor http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?download_perl_6
14:31 jauaor mm..
14:34 jauaor anyway ... going through svn
14:35 masak yes, you should anyway.
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14:52 masak jauaor: I don't know why that link you used is down, but it probably whould have given you Rakudo, not Pugs.
14:53 masak note that my commit was to the Pugs repo :)
14:53 * jauaor nods
14:53 jauaor masak: it's the Download link from pugscode.org
14:53 masak that's a shame.
14:53 masak someone should update that.
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15:01 pugs_svn r22846 | masak++ | [ext/MD5-Digest] understood term "little-endian" and made appropriate changes
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15:28 jauaor :-)
15:29 masak still doesn't work, though
15:29 * masak sulks
15:55 masak when the pseudocode talks about 'append "1" bit to message", does it mean to the start or to the end of the message, do you think?
15:56 * masak is clutching for straws
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16:45 jauaor masak: .... do you use cabal-install for pugs?
16:45 masak jauaor: I think I did last time, yes.
16:45 masak but that's just for the binary. I still pull down the svn, and work on that.
16:45 jauaor masak: it fetches the code from svn?
16:45 jauaor aaah
16:45 masak dunno.
16:46 masak I don't target Pugs a lot, mostly Rakudo.
16:46 masak but the Pugs repo contains other goodies, such as the Perl 6 test suite
16:53 masak moritz_++ # the 'tidings' post
17:10 masak std: elems (1,2,3)
17:10 p6eval std 22846: OUTPUT[parsed␤]
17:10 masak OIC
17:18 jauaor masak: Rakudo is languages/perl right?
17:19 masak languages/perl6, yes
17:20 TimToady looks like svn is down on feather
17:20 lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:20 jauaor Hi TimToady
17:21 TimToady anyone here know offhand how to restart svn.pugscode.org on feather?
17:36 pugs_svnbot joined #perl6
17:41 avar restart apache?
17:41 avar if it's using http it's running through an apache module
17:42 TimToady just restarted it
17:42 TimToady doesn't help
17:42 avar what's the http url to the svn repo?
17:42 TimToady it's using https, at least from my machine
17:43 TimToady I wonder if bare http works?
17:43 masak http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ is up
17:43 lambdabot Title: pugs - Revision 22846: /
17:43 avar yes http works
17:43 masak and I have my repo checked out through http
17:43 masak not https
17:44 avar Interesting ports on feather.perl6.nl (193.200.132.135):
17:44 avar PORT    STATE  SERVICE
17:44 avar 80/tcp  open   http
17:44 avar 443/tcp closed https
17:44 avar but yes, https down
17:44 TimToady yeah, http works, but not https :/
17:44 TimToady I only switched to https because of a temporary firewall restriction, so I guess it's time to switch back...
17:47 TimToady @msg juerd http to svn.pugscode.org works, but not https for some reason; restarting apache didn't help
17:47 lambdabot Not enough privileges
17:48 TimToady @tell juerd http to svn.pugscode.org works, but not https for some reason; restarting apache didn't help
17:48 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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18:01 pugs_svn r22847 | lwall++ | [STD_syntax_highlight] convert text to utf8 so that we don't get mojibake on
18:01 pugs_svn r22847 | lwall++ |     t/spec/S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.t
18:01 pugs_svnbot r22847 | lwall++ | [STD_syntax_highlight] convert text to utf8 so that we don't get mojibake on
18:01 pugs_svnbot r22847 | lwall++ |     t/spec/S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.t
18:01 TimToady er, oops
18:03 pugs_svnbot joined #perl6
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18:06 pugs_svn r22848 | lwall++ | [STD] allow parsing of multiple *.t files in one process (works, but leaks badly)
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18:44 rindolf TimToady: teach me ancient Greek.
18:59 nacho_ hi
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19:03 nacho_ I want to  get involved with rakudo testing
19:04 nacho_ but i'm lost
19:09 rindolf nacho_: last time I tried Rakudo failed its tests here.
19:13 rindolf Trying again now.
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19:17 TimToady πτυω
19:19 rindolf Pi-Tau-something-omega?
19:23 Patterner upsilon?
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19:27 rindolf Hi Patterner
19:27 rindolf perlbot: utf8 υ
19:27 perlbot υ U+03C5 "GREEK SMALL LETTER UPSILON", category: "Greek and Coptic", utf8 bytes: CF 85, upper-case: U+03A5 (Υ)
19:27 rindolf Patterner: right.
19:27 rindolf I gather it's not the same as epsilon
19:28 rindolf Hmmm... Rakudo doesn't compile.
19:30 rindolf OK - now it works after make clean.
19:30 rindolf And noo - to make test.
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19:31 pmurias jauaor: why don't you like using haskell as your scripting language? ;)
19:32 rindolf All tests successful.
19:33 pmurias that's nice
19:38 pmurias ruoso: do we plan on putting a git repository for integrating smop and p5 somewhere?
19:42 jauaor pmurias: Because it lacks the dynamism offered by one .... and one or two line scripts are usually better in such a dynamic languages
19:43 jauaor pmurias: I am one of those who believes in both dynamic and static paradigm as two valid solutions to two different world ;-)
19:47 pmurias having optional (maybe partial) static typing in Perl 6 would be fun
19:48 * jauaor nods
19:49 jauaor Though one language usually inclines more towards one paradigm than other ... it's always nice to have both options at hand
19:51 pmurias propably just preventing things which can be determined to be an error rather than enforcing correctness would be more perlish
19:51 rindolf rakudo: my @x = (5,6,100,333); @x[1]
19:51 p6eval rakudo 31963: RESULT[6]
19:52 rindolf Hmm...
19:52 rindolf Doesn't work for me.
19:52 rindolf I'm getting No handler to delete.
19:53 jauaor pmurias: oh, and I do have tried to use Haskell as a scripting language
19:53 jauaor pmurias: I even wrote a small shell some time ago, haskell.org/hashell
19:57 pmurias i'm a young and noobish haskell coder but IMHO haskell feels much more like a dynamic language than say C
19:57 jauaor And though it's fun and all, it isn't a scripting language ... so, using it like that won't give you as many benefits as one
19:58 jauaor pmurias: what do you mean?
19:59 jauaor it certainly abstracts lot of stuff
20:00 pasteling "rindolf" at 62.219.139.216 pasted "Why am I getting a "No handler to delete."" (4 lines, 138B) at http://sial.org/pbot/32990
20:00 pmurias you have all your types inferred for you and things glue together nicely
20:00 rindolf Any help would be appreciated with http://sial.org/pbot/32990
20:00 lambdabot Title: Paste #32990 from "rindolf" at 62.219.139.216
20:01 jauaor And once you get used to its type system and laziness ... it's hard not to hate other languages :-P
20:02 jauaor pmurias: aah right, from that point of view.. Haskell is by far more advanced than C .... not sure if it is a fair comparison considering the languages nature , but I understand what you say
20:02 jauaor Haskell just spoils you in so many ways
20:02 jauaor type system, laziness, type inference, infinite structures ....
20:03 jauaor So it'd be really nice to have a scripting language inheriting some of this stuff
20:05 allbery_b yopu can run uncompiled code with runhaskell. or one-liners with ghc -e
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20:05 jauaor yes you can
20:05 allbery_b unfortunately, the nature of scripting is more or less opposed to strong typing
20:06 jauaor And certainly ghci has improved greatly lately
20:06 jauaor But at the end Haskell is more of a static language .. and it will be oriented toward it better
20:07 rindolf Hmmm... works if I put it inside a script.
20:07 jauaor For example allbery_b , you can't create data constructors straight from ghci
20:08 allbery_b right
20:08 jauaor So, that gives some kind of example of certain limitations ...
20:08 allbery_b arguably if you get to the point where you need custom data types, you're in runhaskell territory anyway
20:08 jauaor For scripting or dynamic code
20:08 pmurias scripting here being the sort of things you use can use shell scripts for
20:08 pmurias s/use//
20:09 pmurias or writing small plugins for complex applications?
20:09 rindolf pugs: my $x = [5,63001,7]; @$x[1]
20:09 p6eval pugs: RESULT[\63001]
20:10 nacho_ i think i will have to know pir before I get involved with rakudo test suite
20:10 jauaor pmurias: Haskell can be used for shell code .... there have been many efforts to get a proper Haskell shell going on ... but none enough popular it seems
20:11 jauaor pmurias: but you can certainly use it like that
20:11 jauaor ther eis even libraries for shell routines as modules
20:11 jauaor there are*
20:12 jauaor pmurias: I usually care more about scripting languages for extending applications though
20:14 pmurias static typing is create if the thing you're writing takes a while to test
20:17 pmurias s/create/great/
20:18 pmurias is svn.pugscode.org alive?
20:19 pmurias sorry the https url wasn't working
20:22 jauaor the http is working ... well, worked for me a few hours ago
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20:23 pmurias the http works the https doesn't
20:24 rindolf Hi all.
20:24 pmurias rindolf: hi
20:24 rindolf How do I add a test to the Rakudo test suite to test for @$array_ref[1]?
20:24 rindolf I have the test written, but don't know where to put it.
20:25 pmurias rindolf: why not add the test to the official Perl 6 test suite in pugs/t
20:25 pmurias pugs/t/spec
20:25 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:25 rindolf pmurias: can Rakudo fail initially?
20:26 pmurias rindolf: i'm Rakudo ignorant
20:26 rindolf pmurias: ah.
20:27 pmurias jauor: the haskell->smop bindings in a way i can't understand and i'll have to rewrite them in a ugly OO perl5 way :(
20:27 pmurias s/them/code that depends on them/
20:34 jauaor pmurias: why?
20:35 pmurias argh, i don't type all the words i mean too
20:36 pmurias s/in a way/broke in a way/ ;)
20:36 jauaor aaah ... hah
20:36 nacho_ rindolf, can you share what are you doing? :D
20:36 jauaor pmurias: where are those bindings?
20:36 rindolf nacho_: trying to get @$array_ref[1] to work.
20:36 * jauaor is just getting into perl6 atm
20:37 rindolf nacho_: it's for a script I wrote that works on Pugs.
20:37 pmurias v6/smop/m0ld/M0ld/Eval.hs
20:37 pmurias i encoutered some recent bitrot so i'll have to fix some things before smop compiles again
20:40 jauaor aaah .. mm ...
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20:43 nacho_ so, you are writing tests just for rakudo on pugs or pugs and parrot as well?
20:43 rindolf nacho_: rakudo on pugs?
20:43 rindolf nacho_: I'm trying to fix Rakudo.
20:43 rindolf nacho_: but I like to do in Test-driven-development.
20:44 pmurias jauaor: i used the gimme5 script which STD.pm uses to compile itself as a parser for the assembly language for a depraceated smop backend
20:44 pmurias * deprecated
20:44 nacho_ ok, now I understand
20:44 nacho_ haha
20:44 pmurias and mixing deprecated things with bleading edge stuff tends to break ;)
20:48 jauaor pmurias: hah
21:29 ruoso pmurias, re git branch: I was wondering if I should ask for a remote branch on the official p5 git repo
21:34 * ruoso is dead tired... spent the whole day painting his new house...
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21:46 pmurias ruoso: we could ask i'm not sure if commit bits are branch specific and how official is the stuff in the p5 git repo
21:47 spx2 is there something serious using perl6 running right now ?
21:47 spx2 like some project
21:47 spx2 or something
21:47 spx2 preferably non-web related
21:47 spx2 I mean non-web site cgi that kind of stuff
21:48 ruoso pmurias, I see... maybe we could host a p5 git repo that could be sync'ed with the main repo
21:48 ruoso and we keep our branch there
21:49 pmurias i'm not familiar with git
21:51 ruoso git is like svk, but better
21:51 ruoso it doesn't depend on a master server at al
21:51 pmurias used it for a tiny amount of time
21:53 pugs_svn r22849 | pmurias++ | [smop] removed one use of SLIME
21:53 pmurias ruoso: i'm removing slime/sm0p as it bitrotted and i don't won't to waste time fixing it again
21:54 ruoso pmurias, you just need to support the "free" operator before you can get rid of slime
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22:10 pugs_svn r22850 | ruoso++ | [smop] turn s1p_attribute from .sm0p to .ri... test is still failing with some weirdness;
22:12 ruoso pmurias, note the above commit (just to avoid you doing the same thing)
22:14 pmurias ruoso: more RIness is nice ;)
22:15 pmurias ruoso: btw have you seen SMOP_HUNT_NULLS?
22:15 ruoso no... I haven't... what is it?
22:15 nacho_ joined #perl6
22:17 pmurias it's an cpp flags which adds a test to SMOP_DISPATCH to check if a NULL is being returned
22:19 ruoso cool
22:19 * ruoso dinner &
22:33 meppl joined #perl6
22:34 pmurias ruoso: 01_smop_lowlevel.c casts ints 1,2 to SMOP_Object* :(
22:35 pmurias shower&
22:50 pugs_svn r22851 | ruoso++ | [smop] test/01 no longer casts 1 and 2 to SMOP__Object*
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23:10 pugs_svn r22852 | pmurias++ | [smop] better NULL found messages
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