Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-11-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:36 meppl good night
00:37 pugs_svn r22853 | lwall++ | [Cursor] some prep work for matching against NFG integer arrays
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10:02 pugs_svn r22854 | pmurias++ | [smop] native capture returns less nulls
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13:32 riffraff hi
13:36 pmurias riffraff: hello
13:36 pmurias riffraff: what brings you here on a quiet misty weekend? ;)
13:37 riffraff actually, a sunny weekend here in rome :)
13:37 riffraff so instead of going out for a walk I slack on irc ;)
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14:06 pmurias riffraff: why do people on irc always have better weather? ;)
14:09 riffraff ahah
14:17 masak pmurias: statistical bias due to people not tending to brag about their bad weather? :)
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14:27 masak @tell rindolf Don't know if you ever got help with the "No handler to delete" error, but at least half of the cause is that you're using the Rakudo REPL. See http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=58258
14:28 masak hello? lambdabot?
14:28 masak :/
14:37 masak @tell rindolf The other half of your problem is a bug in Rakudo, one which I've now reported as [perl #60304]. Thank you for spotting it.
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18:05 rindolf So who should I talk to about adding a test to Rakudo?
18:08 masak rindolf: have you backlogged? did you see my messages to you?
18:08 masak rindolf: adding a test to Rakudo consists of adding a test to the Perl test suite in the Pugs repo
18:08 rindolf masak: your messages to me?
18:09 masak rindolf: I'll get the for you from the past.
18:09 rindolf masak: what?
18:09 rindolf masak: do you have a different nick?
18:09 masak rindolf: no.
18:09 masak but you weren't online at that time
18:10 masak and lambdabot was absent too
18:10 rindolf masak: ah.
18:10 rindolf masak: ah, then how am I supposed to see your messages?
18:10 masak I'll post them here for you
18:10 masak
18:10 masak (there's also an archive for this channel)
18:10 masak here's the first message:
18:10 masak Don't know if you ever got help with the "No handler to delete" error, but at least half of the cause is that you're using the Rakudo REPL. See http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=58258
18:10 masak here's the second:
18:11 masak The other half of your problem is a bug in Rakudo, one which I've now reported as [perl #60304]. Thank you for spotting it.
18:11 masak for future reference, the IRC archives for this channel are at http://irc.pugscode.org/
18:11 masak ...for easy backlogging :)
18:13 moritz_ re
18:13 masak moritz_: OH HAI
18:28 moritz_ @tell DarkAkorn I'm back now... do you still need help with the IRC logs?
18:29 masak lambdabot's down... we miss her :/
18:29 moritz_ I noticed, yes ;)
18:33 masak & # food
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19:46 rindolf masak: here?
19:50 masak rindolf: more or less, yes.
19:50 rindolf masak: I'd like to implement the @$array_ref feature in Rakudo - how do I go on?
19:50 rindolf I wrote a test file.
19:51 rindolf But where do I put it?
19:51 moritz_ where is it specced?
19:51 rindolf moritz_: I don't know.
19:51 masak rindolf: meet moritz_, our test suite pumpking
19:51 masak you're in good hands.
19:52 rindolf masak: :-)
19:52 moritz_ rindolf: try to grep in the spces where @() is mentioned...
19:52 moritz_ for example S03 mentions it sever times
19:53 moritz_ so it should go in t/spec/S03-operators/ somewhere
19:53 moritz_ either t/spec/S03-operators/context-forcers.t or a new file
19:54 masak context-forcers.t sounds right to me.
19:55 rindolf Where are the spec/synopses repos? http://perlcabal.org/syn/
19:55 moritz_ http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn/
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19:57 rindolf What is the difference between context-forcers.t and context-forcers.rakudo ?
19:57 literal moritz_: that doesn't look up-to-date
19:58 literal e.g. S17 there is just a placeholder while the one on perlcabal.org has lots of stuff in it
19:58 mncharity It would be nice of Perl 6 had an active planet.  It would provide greater visibility to the work which is happening.
19:58 moritz_ rindolf: the .rakudo file is generated from .t, and some tests might be TODOed or skipped
19:58 rindolf moritz_: ah.
19:59 moritz_ literal: some specs also live in the pugs repo, in docs/Perl6/Spec/ - that's a bit confusing :/
20:00 mncharity http://planetsix.perl.org/ exists, but it (1) currently is only showing a single recent post, with apparently no way to get previous ones.  So it's either broken, or badly misconfigured.  (2) it's missing blogs.  Eg http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/ .
20:00 mncharity I'd create an Elf blog as well, if there were a place to put it.
20:01 mncharity Perhaps a smop blog as well?
20:01 masak mncharit++ # ideas
20:02 mncharity So, any thoughts on who maintains/has access to http://planetsix.perl.org/ ?  With objectives of get moritz's blog added, and have some history accessible?
20:03 moritz_ mncharity: since it's perl.org, ask webmaster@perl.org
20:03 moritz_ mncharity: I think I suggested a blog once, and it got accepted immediately
20:03 moritz_ (but I won't suggest my own blog, it doesn't feel right ;)
20:03 mncharity masak: :)
20:04 masak TimToady: S02 says: "If you wish to supply a C<Pair> as a key, you must compose an outer C<Pair> in which the key is the inner C<Pair>: %hash = (($keykey => $keyval) => $value);". But Rakudo doesn't require the parens to produce such a hash. Are the parens superfluous and just for clarification, or does Rakudo take liberties with the precedence?
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20:04 mncharity moritz_: will do.  I've your permission to suggest your blog?   Suggested name?
20:05 moritz_ mncharity: sure you have. Just use my name (Moritz Lenz), since all others seem to use their name as well ;)
20:06 mncharity ok.  in progress.
20:07 moritz_ mncharity++ # taking action
20:09 masak rindolf++ # writing tests
20:10 mncharity moritz_: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/ seems to have p6 content as well.  and which doesnt appear in perl-6/.  what's the right thing?
20:10 TimToady masak: => is supposed to be right associative, not left
20:10 masak TimToady: i.e. Rakudo has it wrong.
20:10 TimToady yes
20:10 * masak files rakudobug mail
20:10 moritz_ mncharity: both ;) perl-5-to-6 is more tutorial and feature show-off, perl-6/ is news.
20:11 moritz_ mncharity: perl-5-to-6 needs dupe filtering, because the rss feed sometimes has dupes
20:12 rindolf masak: http://www.shlomifish.org/File​s/files/code/p6-spec-test.diff
20:13 rindolf masak: thanks. :-)
20:13 masak rindolf: the tests themselves look good, but since Rakudo doesn't yet implement @$x...
20:13 masak ...they will not only not pass, but fail to parse.
20:13 rindolf masak: I'm trying to implement it.
20:13 moritz_ uhm, I don't know if @$x[1] does what you mean, because [] has tighter precedence
20:14 masak moritz_: good point.
20:14 moritz_ and in general that's not wrong, because you can just say $x[1]
20:14 moritz_ so you'd neet to write that as @($x)[1] instead
20:14 moritz_ s/neet/need/
20:14 masak rindolf: do you think you could add a fudge directive? if you do, I can commit your patch. (unless you already have commit rights to the Pugs repo)
20:15 rindolf masak: actually, I used to have a commit bit on the Pugs repos.
20:15 masak rindolf: moritz_ is right. there's no need in p6 to convert to array before indexing
20:15 masak rindolf: did you misplace it?
20:15 rindolf masak: OK.
20:15 rindolf masak: no, I don't think I did.
20:16 masak rindolf: why then "used to"?
20:16 rindolf masak: well, maybe it was removed or something.
20:16 masak I've never heard of anyone being deprived of his commit bit.
20:16 rindolf It should be still active.
20:16 masak aye.
20:17 rindolf masak: fine, I'll remove the first two tests that I added.
20:17 masak ...and add a fudge directive. kthxbai.
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20:18 rindolf masak: OK.
20:18 rindolf masak: but I'd like to try to implement it in Rakudo now
20:18 masak rindolf: :)
20:19 masak rindolf: I'd advice you to hang out on #parrot on irc.perl.org in that case.
20:19 moritz_ rindolf: I don't want to stop you, but pmichaud is going to re-work the list context stuff anyway
20:19 rindolf moritz_: ah.
20:20 * masak was going to say "aw, pmichaud gets all the good stuff!", but realized that this is actually a good thing. pmichaud++
20:23 masak heh, I wrote a whole bug report about Rakudo's => being left-associative, before I realized that it's right-associative after all...
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20:25 mncharity moritz_: err, where is the feed for  http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/ ?
20:26 moritz_ mncharity: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/index.rss
20:26 moritz_ it's advertised wrongly on the page itself :/
20:31 mncharity sent.  yay progress.
20:42 masak progress++
20:46 mncharity I hope to get back to elf sometime this week.  Perhaps first with a spot check of how STD is coming along.  When gimme5 is doing useably correct parses of elf and STD.pm (perhaps already is?), then I clearly become the elf bootstrap blocker, and I expect I'll allocate some solid days to get it done.  Else perhaps back to low intensity hacking on the rx_on_re->elf merge, in preparation for later STD.
20:47 mncharity May also attempt a Boston.PM hacking evening.  If boston.rb can consistently manage it, why not boston.pm?  Could do an elf night.
20:47 mncharity @tell ruoso Any interest in doing a smop blog?  For http://planetsix.perl.org/ ?
20:48 moritz_ ENOƛBOT
20:48 mncharity lambdabot taking Sunday off?
20:48 masak lambdabot down :(
20:48 mncharity snif
20:49 masak it's a foretaste of how helpless we'll be ten years down the road, when our bots desert us...
20:49 mncharity nifty character between ENO and BOT.
20:49 mncharity lol
20:49 masak mncharity: yes, λ :)
20:49 moritz_ it's lambda + stroke
20:49 mncharity I'm looking forward to getting my first email from someone I kown is already deceased.
20:50 mncharity ahhh
20:50 moritz_ I didn't find the normal lambda in my char map :/
20:50 masak moritz_: why the stroke?
20:50 masak ah.
20:50 moritz_ because somebody stroke down lambdabot? ;-)
20:50 mncharity so much unicode fun to look forward to
20:50 masak I just did 'C-u C-\ greek RET l' :)
20:51 masak emacs++
20:52 mncharity I'm off.  happy hacking.  &
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20:55 rindolf Hmmm.... @($x) works.
20:56 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = [1, 2, 3]; say @($x).elems
20:56 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[3␤]
20:56 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = [1, 2, 3, 0]; .say for @($x);
20:56 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[1 2 3 0␤]
20:56 masak yes, but that's wrong :)
20:57 masak it loops over it as if it were one element
20:57 masak don't worrt, I've reported that to rakudobug :P
20:57 masak s/worrt/worry/
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21:31 masak perl6: my $x = 'a'; die "Something's wrong" if !($x eq 'a' | 'b')
21:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Something's wrong␤    at /tmp/wWuLw0Rc99 line 1, column 14-38␤]
21:31 p6eval ..elf 22847: OUTPUT[Something's wrong at (eval 123) line 4␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
21:31 p6eval ..rakudo 31963: RESULT[Bool::False]
21:32 masak my Rakudo r32280 says "Something's wrong". can anyone confirm?
21:33 moritz_ masak: mine too (+ a backtrace)
21:33 masak yes, sure.
21:33 masak good, then it's not just me.
21:33 masak this is a regression of some sort.
21:34 masak don't we have a test for this?
21:34 * masak runs spectest_regression
21:35 moritz_ masak: that's the "boolean context doesn't collapse junctions" TODO
21:35 masak oh.
21:35 masak I'm pretty sure it used to work.
21:35 masak we had such code in November.
21:35 masak ...which now fails :/
21:36 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 'a'; say perl(!($x eq 'a' | 'b'))
21:36 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[Could not find non-existent sub perl␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 86 (EVAL_12:28)␤]
21:36 masak moritz_: try the method.
21:36 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 'a'; say (!($x eq 'a' | 'b')).perl
21:36 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[Bool::False␤]
21:36 moritz_ uhm.
21:36 masak Something's wrong.
21:36 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 'a'; say "yes" if  (!($x eq 'a' | 'b'))
21:36 p6eval rakudo 31963: RESULT[Bool::False]
21:37 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 'a'; say "yes" if  (!($x eq 'a' | 'b')); say "done"
21:37 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[done␤]
21:37 masak why the outer pair of parens?
21:38 moritz_ historical artifact
21:38 masak rakudo: my $x = 'a'; die "Something's wrong" if !($x eq 'a' | 'b')
21:38 p6eval rakudo 31963: RESULT[Bool::False]
21:38 masak moritz_: perl 5 doesn't need that either.
21:38 masak dang, how come the bug is suddenly gone?!
21:39 masak oh, right. it never showed up here on p6eval...
21:39 masak that must mean that we were fine by r31963.
21:40 masak how come p6eval runs such an old version of Rakudo, btw?
21:40 moritz_ svn.perl.org firewall :/
21:41 masak ach so.
21:41 moritz_ I'm now re-checking the cronjobs
21:41 moritz_ :q
21:41 moritz_ wrong window
21:42 masak you can quit IRC, but you can never leave >:)
21:45 moritz_ "you can checkout any time you like, but you can never leave" - was  it that you were thinking of? ;-)
21:46 masak moritz_: Hotel California, aye.
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21:51 moritz_ very cool song ;)
21:55 masak one of the best.
22:00 masak moritz_: are you sure this regression is part of the TODO you mentioned? even considering that it appeared after r31963?
22:01 moritz_ masak: no, not sure.
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22:02 moritz_ there are now some passing skipped tests in t/spec/S03-operators/precedence.t
22:02 moritz_ but I'm not quite sure that the tests are right :(
22:03 masak moritz_: the symptoms do seem to indicate that junctions aren't coverted to a boolean
22:03 pugs_svn r22855 | moritz++ | [t/spec] some unfudgings for rakudo
22:03 masak $ perl6 -e 'my $x = "a"; say (!($x eq "a" | "b")).perl' gives 'any(Bool::False, Bool::True)' here
22:03 moritz_ that should not happen[tm]
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22:05 mncharity http://planetsix.perl.org/ Robert++
22:09 masak moritz_: but you say it's reported already? what's the ticket number?
22:10 moritz_ masak: dunno, but it's definitively a TODO to implement proper autothreading in the dispatcher.
22:10 moritz_ masak: I don't think there's a TODO for this particular item.
22:10 * masak writes something about it to rakudobug
22:10 moritz_ rakduo: my $x = "a"; say (!($x eq "a" | "b")).perl
22:11 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = "a"; say (!($x eq "a" | "b")).perl
22:11 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[any(Bool::False, Bool::True)␤]
22:11 moritz_ I CAN HAZ NEW RAKUDO ON SRVR
22:12 moritz_ it's just reported as old :/
22:12 moritz_ should say 32288 in a few minutes, though
22:13 masak moritz_++
22:13 moritz_ rakudo: say "hi"
22:13 p6eval rakudo 31963: OUTPUT[hi␤]
22:13 masak now we'll get all the latest regressions, right here in the channel!
22:14 moritz_ how write the perl6 RT queue bot?
22:14 masak sorry, what?
22:14 masak (that didn't parse)
22:15 moritz_ s/how write/who writes/
22:15 * moritz_ should go to bed now
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Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo