Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-11-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:17 pugs_svn r22986 | lwall++ | [Cursor] factor out fate linked list generation from "ch2" code so we can
02:17 pugs_svn r22986 | lwall++ |     refer to fates by number later when we are more dfa-ish.
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03:02 lizsac does lwall ever come in here?
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03:32 TimToady beats me
03:33 alester Q: Why do you stay with your husband, Mrs. de Sade?
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03:39 johnjohn101 is perl6 supposed to fix the perl threading model currently in use?
03:40 TimToady in spots
03:40 johnjohn101 what about the memory usage for threads?
03:42 TimToady there's much less global state, so probably less
03:44 meppuru good night
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07:41 moritz_ TimToady: STD.pm dies with "Out of memory" on ../../t/spec/S06-traits/precedence.t (more than 2G available)
07:44 masak perl6: say log(0)
07:44 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[-Inf␤]
07:44 p6eval ..rakudo 32569: OUTPUT[-inf␤]
07:44 p6eval ..elf 22847: OUTPUT[Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::log called at (eval 119) line 3.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
07:45 masak S29 says calling with 0 is an error.
07:45 moritz_ is elf_f still the things to execute, or should I use elf_g or something instead?
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08:49 masak arrgh, we need to start using Perl 6 on a massive scale before all these well-meaning self-proclaimed web journalists succeed in convincing the world that it's vapourware!
08:58 pugs_svn r22987 | audreyt++ | * Support Cabal 1.6.0 (comes with GHC 6.10.1) in Makefile.PL.
09:00 pugs_svn r22988 | audreyt++ | * GHC 6.10 support, part 1 of 3: Adjust for Map.lookup's new signature.
09:00 pugs_svn r22989 | audreyt++ | * GHC 6.10 support, part 2 of 3: Adjust for extensible exceptions.
09:01 pugs_svn r22990 | audreyt++ | * GHC 6.10 support, part 3 of 3: Adjust for GADT's "rigid types" restriction.
09:03 fullermd Well, until it's released, it IS vapourware  :p
09:04 moritz_ fullermd: that statement gives definition power to the release process. So if I release it today, does it stop being vapourware?
09:04 fullermd Yes.
09:04 fullermd (it may be completely broken crap non-vapourware, but it's non-vaprous at least ;)
09:05 moritz_ well, parrot+rakudo has monthly releases
09:05 moritz_ so by your definition it's not vapourware anymore
09:05 * fullermd suspects you're reading way too much semantic rigor into offhand flip statements...
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09:06 masak fullermd: the point is, words are powerful, and spreading lies can be harmful.
09:06 fullermd But still.  Are those rakudo releases "perl 6", or "steps toward perl 6"?  It's a definitional issue to be sure, but...
09:06 masak fullermd: stop discussing and start trying out Perl 6 for yourself instead. :)
09:07 masak fullermd: then you don't need to exactly define your terms.
09:07 fullermd Right, 'cuz perl 5 doesn't make me cranky ENOUGH with PHP   :p
09:07 masak fullermd: I didn't understand that last part. what does Perl 5 have to do with PHP?
09:07 moritz_ fullermd: without semantic rigour discussions are pointless, and just contribute to FUD.
09:08 masak my sentiments exactly.
09:08 moritz_ anyway, I should focus on that freakin' tight binding hamiltonian now...
09:09 * fullermd shrugs.
09:09 fullermd I don't intend to spend paragraphs on precise term delineation when I'm explicitly blurring terms to have fun with language.
09:10 masak fullermd: well, if enough people think it's "fun" to go around calling Perl 6 vapourware when it actually isn't, it won't matter much that Perl 6 exists today and can be used to write code. people simply won't try it out, because they've been misinformed.
09:10 fullermd Whistling in the dark isn't meant to be the same as 'discussion'.
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09:11 fullermd Don't worry.  It won't happen again.
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09:11 masak another happy acolyte! yay!
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09:21 masak is there a way to ask people not to call Perl 6 bad names without intimidating them?
09:21 literal ask nicely? :)
09:22 masak literal: I don't think I was rude in the discussion above, but I do think that fullermd got a bit scared anyway.
09:23 literal I guess he was miffed because he wasn't really being serious when he called it vapourware
09:23 masak aye.
09:24 masak the discussion was more serious than he was.
09:26 masak but then again, his claims to not being too serious were in response to moritz_ rigourously proving him wrong. I don't think he would have claimed to be unserious if we hadn't objected.
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10:00 szabgab where is this vaporware article?
10:02 moritz_ http://21cdb.wordpress.com/2008/10​/23/perl-6-isnt-vaporware-really/ I think
10:02 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 isn’t vaporware? Really? « 21st Century Digital Boy, http://tinyurl.com/6chbgf
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10:16 szabgab lovely
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11:11 ruoso @tell pmurias I've been thinking about the AdhocSignature, and I think we can move on with it, even with the need to compare signatures. I realized that Signature is not a native-type, therefore, at most the AdhocSignature will need to be expanded to provide all the API of the standard Signature type, but it can still be completely ad-hoc...
11:11 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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12:31 masak rakudo: sign(0+1i)
12:31 p6eval rakudo 32570: RESULT[1]
12:32 masak it might possibly be considered a bug that &sign accepts Complex instances
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13:09 Lorn ppl, someone ask at perlmonks about Perl6::Form
13:09 masak Lorn: url?
13:11 masak this one? http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=723128
13:11 lambdabot Title: Perl6::Form verbatim won't do what I want
13:11 Lorn masak: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=723128
13:11 lambdabot Title: Perl6::Form verbatim won't do what I want
13:11 Lorn masak: yes
13:11 masak :)
13:11 masak Lorn: Perl6::Form is written in Perl 5, though.
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14:00 pmichaud std: my $a; @$a;
14:00 p6eval std 22847: OUTPUT[cp: cannot create regular file `lex/STD/EXPR': Permission denied␤parsed␤]
14:01 masak std: my @a[10]; my @b.[10];
14:01 p6eval std 22847: OUTPUT[parsed␤]
14:01 masak I think that's wrong.
14:01 masak the second form is not allowed.
14:02 moritz_ please check it locally as well, p6eval's std: target isn't 100% reliable
14:02 masak moritz_: oki, how do I check it locally?
14:02 masak moritz_: PS: I don't have Perl 5.10.
14:03 moritz_ masak: then you need to check somewhere that has perl 5.10
14:03 moritz_ or I can do, wait a sec
14:03 masak moritz_: thanks.
14:03 masak I'd like to have 5.10, but so far I haven't found any way to install it. Maybe other Mac OS X 10.5 users know how.
14:04 moritz_ yes, it parses
14:04 masak and do you agree that it shouldn't?
14:05 pmichaud I don't see where  @$a  gets parsed.
14:05 moritz_ masak: aye
14:05 masak @tell TimToady STD gives a false positive on `my @a.[10];`
14:05 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:05 masak .oO( false parsitive )
14:06 pmichaud it might be parsing as    (my @a).[10]
14:06 masak is @%$a correct Perl 6?
14:06 masak pmichaud: still worthy of reporting, in that case.
14:07 pmichaud there are a _bunch_ of instances of @$foo  in the synopses.
14:07 moritz_ std: @$a
14:07 p6eval std 22847: OUTPUT[parsed␤]
14:07 masak std: @%$a
14:07 pmichaud but I can't see where STD parses that.
14:07 p6eval std 22847: OUTPUT[parse failure␤]
14:09 moritz_ DumpMatch.pm needs updates wrt recent Cursor changes, I think
14:09 pmichaud perhaps someone could get the parse tree from std for me?  (I don't have STD available on this system -- still stuck at perl 5.8)
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14:30 rakudo_svn r32571 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 216 files, 4528 passing, 8 failing
14:30 rakudo_svn r32571 | pmichaud++ | Failure summary:
14:30 rakudo_svn r32571 | pmichaud++ |     S02-literals/radix.rakudo aborted 8 test(s)
14:30 rakudo_svn r32572 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: update test_summary.pl to report failures, output < 80 cols
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14:38 pmurias ruoso: why do you use $/ instead of newline
14:38 lambdabot pmurias: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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15:00 rakudo_svn r32573 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Fix .list method on arrays (and arrayrefs).
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15:05 ruoso @tell pmurias I use $/ just because it's easier to write than "\n" considering I'm using single-quote most of the time...
15:05 lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:05 masak :)
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15:42 masak rakudo: say sin(0)
15:42 p6eval rakudo 32573: OUTPUT[0␤]
15:42 masak sin shouldn't be exported by default, according to S29.
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15:49 Alias_ masak: So there should only be the original sin?
15:49 Alias_ (ducks)
15:49 masak er.
15:56 masak Alias_: more like, there should only be the :Trig sin. which can then be exported using something like `use Num :Trig;`
15:57 Alias_ I think your pun detector has malfunctioned slightly :)
15:58 masak Alias_: it's just a tendency I have to try to think up serious answers to people who are obviously joking.
15:58 masak Alias_: it's fun, you should try it. :)
15:59 Alias_ I do, but in my case it's my sarcasm detector
15:59 masak Alias_: (besides, it's only a pun if something has two interpretations. I could only deduce the punny one.)
15:59 rindolf Hi Alias_
15:59 Alias_ \o
16:00 rakudo_svn r32574 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Make log(0) return a Failure (RT #60490, masak++)
16:00 masak pmichaud++
16:02 masak though I find the non-local exception throwing mechanism a bit disconcerting, to be honest.
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16:20 * ruoso later &
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16:35 pmichaud (non-local)    I think that's so that things like     my $b = any(0..5);   my $c = log($b);    doesn't always blow up in your face.
16:36 masak oh. makes sense.
16:36 pmichaud and eventually the exception will report the location where it was created -- we just don't have that in Parrot yet.
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16:40 pmichaud (sin)  since we don't have a good import mechanism yet, we should probably leave it global by default for now.  That will likely change soon.
16:44 TimToady it remains to be seen exactly what gets imported into the prelude by default
16:44 lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:45 TimToady but we're just going with a conservative approach, since it's much harder to undo later
16:47 TimToady masak: my @a.[10] is equivalent to my @a[10] which is is a shaped array declaration
16:47 masak TimToady: then I must have misunderstood S09
16:48 masak "Note that the square brackets are a compile-time declarator, not a run-time operator, so you can't use the "dotted" form either"
16:48 TimToady well, it could be that S09 is wrong
16:48 masak certainly.
16:48 pmichaud ...the synopses can be wrong?  *shudder*  :-)
16:49 masak pmichaud: according to the authority hierarchy, it can.
16:49 masak :)
16:49 pmichaud TimToady: (quick question, I hope)   -   what parses the leading @  in something like  @$foo
16:49 TimToady "Can Larry create a synopsis he cannot implement?"
16:49 pmichaud "No, but Damian probably can."
16:50 moritz_ it's not so hard. halt(&f) yields 1 if f() ever stops, 0 otherwise. Now implement....
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16:51 masak moritz_: sssh! don't give him ideas! :)
16:51 TimToady pmichaud: desigilname
16:52 TimToady or rather, desigilname is what parses everything after the @
16:53 TimToady note that variable calls desigilname, which can call variable
16:53 pmichaud okay, that's what I missed.  THanks.
16:54 pmichaud I was thinking of "desigilname" as "name without any sigil", but it really means "name with one less sigil" I guess.
16:54 pmichaud or, "take away a sigil"
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17:03 masak also, from S09: `@@shape = (4;2);` -- how does this work? what variable has been declared beforehand? @shape, right? can one write `my @@shape = (4;2);` ?
17:10 TimToady yes, @@shape always stores as @shape, but gives slice context instead of list context
17:11 TimToady and slice context pays attention to ; while list context doesn't
17:11 masak aha, ok.
17:11 TimToady at least, that's the theory--remains to be seen how it works out in practice
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17:15 pmichaud ....this is all still theoretical?  ;-)
17:16 pmichaud can't we find someone who can reduce it to pra.... oh.  Never mind.
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17:17 pmurias ruoso: hi
17:17 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:19 ruoso hi pmurias
17:19 pmurias ruoso: i find $/ a bit strange, as the input record separator isn't always a newline
17:19 pmurias * doesn't have to be a newline
17:19 ruoso I know I know... it's just lazyness...
17:19 ruoso :P
17:20 pmurias you could make vim insert "\n" easily
17:20 ruoso but we could have a local $/ = "\n" at the beggining of mildew :P
17:20 pmurias or i could just fix $/ to "\n"
17:20 ruoso heh
17:20 ruoso no problem...
17:21 pmurias ruoso: we have memory leaks in smop again?
17:22 ruoso yes, we do... I don't know when it did start...
17:24 TimToady on my keyboard $/ is harder to type than \n, plus it's obfuscational
17:26 [particle] $/ is easier to type than "\n"
17:26 [particle] print $_,$/ for @a; # i prefer that over "$_\n"
17:27 TimToady I prefer .say
17:27 TimToady :)
17:27 TimToady but say $_ works in p5
17:27 TimToady .10
17:28 TimToady but in 5.8 I'd write print "$_\n"
17:28 ruoso [particle], it gets even more annoying when you're using single quotes before the newline...
17:28 ruoso 'something'."\n"
17:29 * ruoso .oO( note that we're talking about a long string concatenation, not a single call to print
17:29 TimToady anyway, you really want to get out of the habit of using $/ for that or you'll get confused in p6 :)
17:29 ruoso TimToady, how does 4 strokes can be easier than 2 strokes?
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17:30 TimToady I'm just saying I usually prefer interpolation anyway, so I usually already have quotes
17:30 ruoso ok... ok... I usually only use $/ when it's after a single-quote
17:31 TimToady but $/ *is* obfuscational to the casual reader
17:31 * ruoso wonders if ␤ can be a core function in Perl 6 ;P
17:31 TimToady and anything in your dynamic scope can change $/, so if you call out and back in to foreign code, you could be hosed
17:32 TimToady ␤  is even harder to type...
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17:34 ruoso but it's pretty ;)
17:34 [particle] not in my font
17:34 TimToady unfortunately, isn't a word character, so it'd have to be an operator
17:35 TimToady or a term:<␤ >
17:35 ruoso in my environment I just have to type Ctrl+Shift+U, 2424
17:36 pmurias_ 5 strokes
17:36 TimToady 7 keystorks, whatever a keystork is
17:36 ruoso yeah... but it's pretty ;)
17:36 pmurias_ it's strange
17:37 jnthn So...it's pretty strange? ;-)
17:39 TimToady so if we have that we should also have ones like ␇ and ␚
17:39 pugs_svn r22991 | pmurias++ | [mildew] added suport for block in item context my $foo = {say 5} and for .()
17:39 pugs_svn r22991 | pmurias++ | also added a &capturize helper for creating captures
17:41 pugs_svn r22992 | pmurias++ | [mildew] replaced $/ by "\n"
17:44 * ruoso votes for unicode subs
17:44 ruoso :)
17:44 * pmurias votes for ASCII
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17:46 pmurias ruoso: if we had a :(@*_,%*_) in m0ld+C we could have realish signatures in p6
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17:47 pmurias later&
17:47 ruoso pmurias, I think you mean *@_, *%_...
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18:32 ruoso @tell pmurias the thing is that Signature is not a native-type, therefore anything that .^does(Signature) is a valid signature. I think it will be even better for the ACCEPTS and BIND code to be compiled directly than have to traverse the Signature object to do that... I could even argue that Signature is a Role, not a Class
18:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
18:32 ruoso TimToady, what do you think about Signature being a role instead of a class?
18:37 ruoso and actually being only an interface, not even providing any implementation...
18:46 TimToady seems like it might be sane
18:52 ruoso I'm quite convinced the compiler generating ad-hoc signature objects is pretty much a good idea not only for bootstrap, but as the actual way it works
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19:17 TimToady demos welcome :)
19:28 TimToady wow, my trie implementation inspired 5.10 to say
19:28 TimToady Attempt to free unreferenced scalar: SV 0xaaaa058 at STD.pm line 9180.
19:29 moritz_ TimToady: try with the 5.10-maint branch, it fixed several such bugs
19:29 TimToady well, I think if my implementation were right it wouldn't trigger that...
19:30 TimToady it was trying to recover from calling a non-existent sub, after all
19:31 TimToady actually, I'm quite sure it was from feeding trash to YAML::XS :)
19:37 pugs_svn r22993 | ruoso++ | [mildew] doing s{\$/}{"\n"}g might not be a good idea if you have regexes using slashes as terminators and trying to get the end of the string
19:38 TimToady see, even the p5 lexer thinks $/ is obfuscated. :)
19:38 pugs_svn r22994 | ruoso++ | [mildew] adding a test for a signature with two positional arguments, this is going to be the initial test bed for ad-hoc signatures
19:40 ruoso TimToady, it would be nice if the VAST returned already placed the implicit "our"s in the declarations...
19:40 * ruoso bbiab &
19:44 TimToady I'm a bit leary of compilers that lie to themselves...
19:45 TimToady I'm also leary of YAML implementations that are stupid about unicode
19:46 TimToady YAML::XS Error: Emit scalar '�', error: expected SCALAR, SEQUENCE-START, MAPPING-START, or ALIAS
19:48 TimToady and that exit without throwing a catchable Perl error
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20:22 pugs_svn r22995 | moritz++ | [t/spec] clean up of S29-num/rounders.t
20:22 pugs_svn r22995 | moritz++ |  * remove rakudo cludge, it now handles nested arrays sufficiently well
20:22 pugs_svn r22995 | moritz++ |  * replace "$array[0]" interpolation by "{$array[0]}" for poor compilers
20:22 pugs_svn r22995 | moritz++ |    that don't do one-pass-parsing yet
20:22 pugs_svn r22995 | moritz++ |  * use numeric comparison for numeric values
20:39 diakopter TimToady: leery?
20:39 diakopter x2
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20:55 [particle] TimToady: how about coersion with *('file.foo') for strings to io objects? ;)
21:00 * moritz_ wonders if [particle] had much exposure to fortran formats ;-)
21:11 [particle] i still find myself reviewing algorithms in "numerical recipies in fortran" from time to time
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21:20 TimToady I'd much prefer io() or .io
21:21 TimToady though perhaps not *quite* as dwimmy as inginess would suggest
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22:20 pugs_svn r22996 | masak++ | [t/spec/integration/substr-af​ter-match-in-gather-in-for.t]
22:20 pugs_svn r22996 | masak++ | * added this one test from a bug discovered in November development
22:36 moritz_ pugs: say %*ENV[0]
22:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at /tmp/C8C8rDERe5 line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤       /tmp/C8C8rDERe5 line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤]
22:36 moritz_ pugs: say %*ENV<PATH>
22:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤    at /tmp/LYvDSpZgem line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤       /tmp/LYvDSpZgem line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤]
22:37 moritz_ maybe related to evalbot's server not having ghc 6.10.1 yet
22:50 rakudo_svn r32580 | moritz++ | [rakudo] more test files for spectest, and restored alphabetical order.
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