Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2008-12-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:33 pugs_svn r24382 | hinrik++ | [examples/euler] adjust the characters allowed in an identifer, support all variants of «»/<<>> hyperops, don't allow nonsensical sigil combinations
00:36 literal er...that was supposed to be [util/perl6.vim] ....oh well
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02:10 rakudo_svn r33907 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Merge associative branch into trunk.
02:10 rakudo_svn r33907 | pmichaud++ | Rakudo now supports slicing on hashes.
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03:00 mpeter does perl 6 work yet
03:02 Hinrik some of it does
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03:13 alester mpeter: Check out rakudo.org to check the key Perl 6 implementation, Rakudo Perl.
03:30 mpeter you guys have any example scripts yet?
03:30 mpeter can we do functional code :)
03:32 Hinrik mpeter: here's an application -> http://github.com/viklund/november/tree/master/p6w
03:36 Hinrik mpeter: there's also the Perl 6 test suite -> http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/
03:36 mpeter wikis are a fad ;)
03:36 mpeter or at least wikipedia is
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03:38 mpeter wikipedia sucks
03:43 mpeter is pugs named after hugs
03:43 Hinrik yeah
03:45 mpeter i like haskell
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04:07 pugs_svn r24383 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] add more keywords, improve matching of reduce, hyperoperators, and angles, fix problem with package scope in some variables
04:14 alester mpeter: Whehter wikis are fads or not, it's still good, working code.
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04:32 pugs_svn r24384 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] highlight separators in Pod formatting codes such as | in L<>, (this is is now the second largest vim syntax file ever, yay)
04:35 Eevee what's the largest?
04:36 Hinrik baan.vim which is distributed with vim
04:37 Hinrik no idea what baan is though
04:37 Hinrik but I must say that it cheats by putting only one keyword per line, which takes up a lot of lines :)
04:41 pugs_svn r24385 | leto++ | Tests for hyperbolic trig functions
04:47 meppl good night
05:11 pugs_svn r24386 | leto++ | Add tests for sec(), cosech() and cotanh()
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05:21 pugs_svn r24387 | leto++ | Unfudge passing hash slice tests
05:24 pugs_svn r24388 | leto++ | Unfudge passing hash reference tests
05:30 pugs_svn r24389 | leto++ | Unfudge passing hash subscript tests in S02
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06:02 pugs_svn r24390 | azawawi++ | [Syntax::Highlight::Perl6] Fixed a typo
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06:06 azawawi good morning
06:11 Hinrik hi
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06:20 rakudo_svn r33913 | tene++ | [rakudo]: Update warn() to use an exception.
06:30 rakudo_svn r33915 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 249 files, 5101 passing, 0 failing
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10:19 baest moritz_: ping, I just saw your tests in ws.t, and should the 'implicit <.ws> is overridden' capture 'axb'?
10:20 baest moritz_: I thought the capture should contain 'ab'
10:22 moritz_ baest: $/ itself captures the whole matched string, not only those parts that were captured by a capturing subrule
10:25 baest moritz_: ok, then I misunderstood it then. Then it work for me and my ticket describes the wrong problem as you said. But isn't it possible then to match something and throw it away again?
10:26 moritz_ baest: I still think that your problem is related to ws overriding, even though my test case happens to work...
10:27 baest moritz_: well, it matches correctly, but I just thought that I could have it remove the comments from the capture so I didn't have to bother with that
10:28 moritz_ baest: I haven't worked through your example yet ... (more)
10:29 moritz_ baest: but if you don't want to bother about whitespaces, walk through all the captured subrules instead
10:29 baest moritz_: it works like your test cases, so no need. Your example puzzles me :)
10:30 moritz_ baest: so if you have rule foo { <bar> <baz> }, just walk through $<bar> and $<baz>
10:33 baest moritz_: yes, you're right, I could do that, but that would also mean that I would have to have a sub rule for each "element", a bit annoying, but I guess that's the way to go
10:37 moritz_ baest: actually that's an open problem in the matching/capturing process, and TimToady is still thinking about it
10:39 baest moritz_: good, that is good news, it didn't seem very perl6ish that I had to bother with that :) Maybe a flag that throws away everything matched in non capturing subrules
10:41 moritz_ baest: my proposed solution was more like an iterator over $/ that iterates over all captured elements in the order in which they appeared in the string
10:41 pugs_svn r24391 | pmurias++ | [mildew]
10:41 pugs_svn r24391 | pmurias++ | the last thing in a sub is returned
10:41 pugs_svn r24391 | pmurias++ | removed clean from the default target
10:41 baest moritz_: that would also work for me
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13:00 pmichaud ....here's a question based on things I saw in the test suite last night.
13:00 pmichaud Let's start with a simple case:
13:00 pmichaud @array = [1, 2, 3];    #  @array has how many elements?
13:00 lambdabot I'll crush ye barnacles!
13:03 jnthn 1?
13:03 pmichaud that's what I think also.  Now then:
13:03 pmichaud @array = { a=>1, b=>2 };   #  @array has how many elements ?
13:03 lambdabot Yo ho ho, and a bottle of rum!
13:04 moritz_ pmichaud: 1
13:04 pmichaud okay, and with
13:04 jnthn 1.
13:04 moritz_ funny number guessing :-)
13:04 pmichaud %hash = { a => 1, b => 2 };   #  error?
13:04 jnthn Uneven number of elements.
13:05 moritz_ I think so, yess
13:05 moritz_ jnthn: that's called "odd" :-)
13:05 pmichaud okay.  Test suite says otherwise in many places.
13:05 pmichaud lots of places say   my %hash = { ... };
13:05 jnthn moritz_: OH YEAH!
13:05 moritz_ however there's a special case, iirc
13:05 jnthn :-)
13:05 moritz_ my %hash = hash{ ... }
13:05 moritz_ there is a hash constructor somewhere that uses curlies
13:06 moritz_ uhm..
13:06 moritz_ pmichaud: see S03, search for "hash composer"
13:06 pmichaud I think that's actually the same issue:
13:06 moritz_ it lists '{ a => 42 }' as a hash composer
13:07 pmichaud hash { ... }    # odd number of elements
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13:07 pmichaud sure, I have no problem with { a => 42 }  being a hash composer
13:07 pmichaud my question is whether it creates a hash or a hashref
13:08 moritz_ perl6: my $x = 0; $x++ for { a => 1, b => 2 }; say $x
13:08 jnthn In @a = { a => 42 }
13:08 p6eval elf 24391: OUTPUT[Can't call method "flatten" on unblessed reference at (eval 117) line 4.␤ at ./elf_f line 3861␤]
13:08 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[2␤]
13:08 p6eval ..rakudo 33915: OUTPUT[1␤]
13:08 jnthn I would expect it to have an array of one hash element.
13:08 jnthn Which implies hashref, as a hash would flatten there when put in list context, IIRC?
13:08 pmichaud flattening hash produces a single pair
13:08 pmichaud (iirc)
13:09 pmichaud I mean, flattening hash produces list of pairs
13:10 pmichaud still, the question is whether the { ... } produce a hashref or no.
13:11 moritz_ pugs seems to think it's not a reference
13:12 moritz_ (and although it did many things wrong, the ref/nonref distinction was astongishly right most of the time)
13:12 moritz_ maybe ask p6l?
13:13 pmichaud okay, I don't have a problem with "not a ref".  That's consistent with most of the existing test suite.
13:14 pmichaud it does mean that  @array = { a=>1, b=>2 }  gives @array two elements and not one.
13:14 moritz_ it will feel very weird for many perl 5 programmers :-)
13:15 pmichaud I have to get kids to school -- will post message when I get back
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13:52 pmichaud I've been under the impression that a hash in list context produces a list of pairs... but I can't find confirmation of that in the synopses.  Can anyone else confirm somehow?  (e.g., synopsis reference or test?)
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14:10 pmichaud aha, I see why rakudo has been working okay til now.  It's been giving hashref special treatment in the hash contextualizer.
14:12 pmichaud that kinda makes sense, so maybe we'll stick with that for now.
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14:33 ruoso Hello!
14:36 moritz_ so maybe the hardest part of "implementing Perl 6" is "understanding Perl 6" :-)
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14:42 pmichaud 20:33
14:42 pmichaud TimToady
14:42 pmichaud after all, Perl Philosphy is simply to torment the implementors on behalf of the user
14:42 pmichaud grr, that didn't paste well.
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15:10 rakudo_svn r33916 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Refactor Array assignment.
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15:14 pmurias ruoso: hi
15:14 lambdabot pmurias: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:17 ruoso hi pmichaud
15:17 ruoso hi pmurias
15:19 pmurias ruoso: we have the autovivifaction stuff nicely specced somwhere?
15:20 pmurias .^!private_storage{$?CLASS} needs to be autovivified
15:20 ruoso pmurias, well... after we have hash bvalue
15:20 ruoso it's kinda ready to work
15:21 ruoso the hard part now is the universal undef that becomes anythign
15:22 pmurias we need to decide if we want to allow mutable RI's
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15:33 ruoso pmurias, what do you mean?
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15:34 pmurias_ ruoso: can objects "morph" into a different RI?
15:34 ruoso well... conceptually the runtime is not aware of that...
15:35 ruoso meaning that if you can handle it, it can be done
15:35 ruoso but it could require a realloc
15:35 ruoso which could lead to undesired effects
15:35 ruoso i.e. the pointer being moved
15:36 pmurias if the RI pointer was constant the optimiser could rely on it
15:37 ruoso the RI pointer for most types currently implemented are constant
15:38 ruoso but...
15:38 ruoso it's important to realize that the way autovivification work doesn't require changing RI
15:38 ruoso it requires a OO-capable RI
15:38 ruoso i.e.: p6opaque
15:38 ruoso so it can be blessed to something else
15:39 ruoso but...
15:39 ruoso we probably can get away because of the bvalue object
15:40 ruoso if the bvalue returns itself on FETCH (if the target hash doesn't have the key)
15:40 ruoso and it also support .{} and .[]
15:40 ruoso you can have Perl 6 autovivification semantics in SMOP rather easy
15:40 ruoso actually, I think that's all you nee
15:41 ruoso pmurias, make hash bvalue return itself if the actual hash doesn't contain the desired key on FETCH
15:42 ruoso pmurias, then implement .{} and .[] returning a bvalue-of-bvalue object
15:43 ruoso pmurias, and also implement .{} and .[] in bvalue-of-bvalue, returning another bvalue-of-bvalue...
15:43 ruoso when someone does %a{b}{c}[0][1] you'll get a chain of bvalue-of-bvalue objects
15:44 ruoso and if then that is used as a target to STORE
15:44 pmurias that would mean a non-bvalue object couldn't autovifiy
15:45 ruoso hmm... it actually means that autovivifcation of hashes and arrays is special cased
15:45 ruoso it doesn't change the use of WHENCE
15:46 pmurias WHENCE is a bit different
15:46 ruoso yes
15:46 ruoso it's the higher-level version of the thing I just described
15:49 ruoso pmurias, but did you understand how that works as a lazy lookup mechanism
15:49 ruoso ?
15:49 ruoso and how it is collapsed in the end?
15:49 pmurias pmurias: yes
15:51 * ruoso .oO ( is pmurias trying to convince himself that he understood? )
15:51 pmurias heh
15:51 pmurias ruoso: yes
15:53 ruoso the only thing blurred about that
15:53 ruoso is how that chain is notified that it was a target of a bind
15:53 ruoso my $a := %a{1}[2]{4}[5];
15:53 ruoso or of a capture
15:53 * ruoso going to re-re-read S09 on that matter
15:53 pmichaud I think binding vivifies.  I seem to recall some tests that indicate that.
15:55 pmurias the bvalue autovivifies it's container when it is a target of a .BIND or .STORE
15:56 ruoso sure... that's when it's a lvalue
15:56 ruoso but it also autovivifies if it's a rvalue of a BIND
15:57 ruoso but that probably is done by the bind code, not by the bvalue itself
15:58 pmurias &
16:00 rakudo_svn r33917 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]:  Refactor Scalar coercions.
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16:50 rakudo_svn r33920 | infinoid++ | [cage] Fix the following codetest failures:
16:50 rakudo_svn r33920 | infinoid++ | * t/codingstd/c_cppcomments.t
16:50 rakudo_svn r33920 | infinoid++ | * t/codingstd/c_operator.t
16:50 rakudo_svn r33920 | infinoid++ | * t/codingstd/trailing_space.t
17:00 rakudo_svn r33922 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: Refactor hash construction and assignment.
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17:21 azawawi hi there
17:22 pmurias &
17:27 azawawi moritz_: Syntax::Highlight::Perl6 is going into Bundle::Perl6. The owner (Marcel Gr�nauer) promised me that he will do it soon.
17:43 pugs_svn r24392 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Fix one test to use ok() instead of is(), unfudge for rakudo.
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19:38 Tene So, how do I resume from an exception in Perl 6?
19:39 Tene do { die 'omg'; say 'after the exception'; CATCH { say 'caught the exception'; <what goes here?> } }
19:40 ruoso Tene, I don't think there's a spec on that already
19:40 Tene Could it be $_.resume() ?
19:40 Tene I also see no spec on that.
19:40 ruoso I'd presume something like that
19:42 [particle] .resume() looks nicer to me
19:42 lambdabot [particle]: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:43 Tene [particle]: same thing.
19:43 ruoso Tene, please send this question to p6-l
19:43 [particle] of course it is, it's just prettier
19:44 ruoso there are some issues there waiting for TimToady already...
19:44 [particle] however, i find ".resume;" less readable
19:47 Tene Sent to p6l
19:50 rakudo_svn r33930 | infinoid++ | [cage] More codingstd fixes.
19:50 rakudo_svn r33930 | infinoid++ | * t/codingstd/perlcritic.t (ignore perl6 files based on containing "use v6;")
19:50 rakudo_svn r33930 | infinoid++ | * t/codingstd/trailing_space.t (again)
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20:18 rff hi
20:21 Tene Hi.
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21:16 moritz_ re
21:17 azawawi wb
21:18 azawawi moritz_: i talked to szabgab today about Padre-Perl6 highlighting
21:18 azawawi moritz_: the work will be a plug-in called Padre::Plugin::Perl6
21:19 moritz_ azawawi: cool
21:19 azawawi moritz_: but we have some road-blocks ;-)
21:20 azawawi moritz_: STD.pmc is hooked on 5.10 and Moose
21:20 PerlJam azawawi: so ... what's the problem?  :)
21:20 azawawi moritz_: and Padre can work on 5.8.x
21:20 moritz_ azawawi: well, STD.pm can't. So the plugin is only there for 5.10 or better.
21:21 azawawi moritz_: any reason for STD.pm to work only on 5.10?
21:21 [particle] 5.10 regex engine required
21:22 moritz_ azawawi: yes, state variables
21:22 azawawi so 5.8.x compatibility is out of the question or would mean slower performance?
21:22 [particle] out of the question
21:23 azawawi [particle]: cool ;-)
21:23 azawawi [particle]: less work
21:24 * azawawi is communicating that info to #padre folks
21:31 azawawi done, Padre::Plugin::Perl6 is >= 5.10
21:33 azawawi anyway by the time Padre is stable, 5.10 install base will be larger
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21:48 moritz_ perl6: say a => '3'
21:48 p6eval rakudo 33935: OUTPUT[␤]
21:48 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT[*** Named argument found where no matched parameter expected: (a,Ann (Pos (MkPos "/tmp/b0NvBGYy08" 1 10 2 1)) (Val (VStr "3")))␤    at /tmp/b0NvBGYy08 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤]
21:48 p6eval ..elf 24392: OUTPUT[a     3␤]
21:48 moritz_ perl6: say ((a => '3'))
21:48 p6eval elf 24392, pugs, rakudo 33935: OUTPUT[a 3␤]
22:03 Tene My mail to p6l hasn't gone through
22:04 moritz_ Tene: then resend
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22:05 Tene perl6-language@perl.org ?
22:06 moritz_ aye
22:06 Tene sent again
22:07 azawawi mortiz_: fyi, performance of STD.pm on win32 during initial lex cache creation is prettty slow; otherwise it is fast
22:08 * moritz_ doesn't really care about windows, since he doesn't have it available
22:09 azawawi moritz_: and it seems we're using 'cp' inside STD.pm
22:10 pasteling "azawawi" at 212.38.154.37 pasted "warnings from running on strawberry perl win32" (4 lines, 184B) at http://sial.org/pbot/33767
22:10 azawawi you got to love those win32 warnings ;-)
22:11 azawawi ...external command, "operable" program or batch file....
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22:12 [particle] what's wrong with that?
22:12 [particle] foo.pl is an inoperable program unless perl.exe in installed and there's a file association with *.pl
22:14 azawawi the good thing is that it worked on win32 even with that warning, TimToady++ ;-)
22:15 azawawi good night &
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22:17 pmichaud sometimes messages to @perl.org get bottlenecked and take a while to process.  Also, sometimes they get moderated depending on how long it's been since your last post.
22:24 Tene very long time, if ever
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23:09 eric256 is there somewhere i can get a feel for how complete the perl6 specs are and how complete certain implementations are? like how far along rakudo and pugs are?
23:10 moritz_ eric256: for rakudo's progress please read http://www.rakudo.org/2008/12/rakudo-perl-now-passing-over-5.html
23:10 moritz_ eric256: specs are hard to say... IO, builtins and concurrency need a lot of love...
23:11 moritz_ and there are synopsis that no implementation hasn't tackled yet, so it's nearly impossiblt to tell if they are implementatble, and useful
23:12 eric256 hmmm okay.. been away from the project for a while and was hoping there where some milestones out in the future ;)
23:12 eric256 gonna play with rakudo some for sure
23:12 moritz_ well, there are new spec drafts
23:12 moritz_ S07, iterators and lazyness
23:12 moritz_ and S19, command line
23:13 pugs_svn r24393 | moritz++ | [docs] list S19 in feather/syn_index.html
23:13 pugs_svn r24394 | moritz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl] also generate synopsis that don't have any smartlinks yet
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23:15 moritz_ and I've been collecting ideas for S24, Testing
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23:16 pmichaud eric256: I'm drafting milestones for Rakudo this week.
23:16 pmichaud basically I'm coming up with the plan for 2009.
23:16 eric256 cool and cool ;)
23:16 pmichaud watch rakudo.org for details :-)
23:17 eric256 so i'm just reading about rakudo now, is it written in perl6 itself? or parrot? and whats the comparison of pugs vs rakudo? are they both moving ahead at full speed?
23:17 pmichaud rakudo is part perl 6, part parrot.
23:17 pmichaud we're slowly (more slowly than I like) moving more bits of it to perl 6
23:17 moritz_ pugs is sleeping, for quite some time now
23:17 eric256 lol alright, the haskell stuff in pugs always scared me
23:17 pmichaud the main compiler components are perl 6.
23:18 pmichaud the libraries are still principally PIR (parrot), but we're working on that.
23:18 [particle] eric256: see my entry at http://www.rakudo.org/2008/12/rakudo-spec-test-coverage-char.html
23:18 eric256 oh thats kinda sad on pugs, it would have been interesting to have competeing implementations but probably not a good use of resources
23:18 jnthn We still have that. :-)
23:18 jnthn See elf, smop.
23:19 [particle] and pugs is still competitive
23:19 [particle] it passes more tests than rakudo
23:19 moritz_ and we've got an extensive test suite and much infrastructure out of pugs
23:20 eric256 yea got busy at work at lost track of perlmonks and perl6 so i'm playing some catchup
23:20 eric256 once i get caught up maybe i can help write some code or some tests at least
23:20 pmichaud that would be excellent.
23:20 jnthn Indeed.
23:20 moritz_ that would be great
23:21 [particle] make it a resolution ;)
23:22 moritz_ if you want to contribute to the test suite, we have a file t/TASKS in the pugs repo which contains way too many things that should be done ;-)
23:22 moritz_ (and I'm a mere human with a nearly full-time job and a girlfriend ;-)
23:23 moritz_ anyway, I have to go to bed now
23:25 xuser girlfriends slows humanity
23:28 Tene Who moderates p6l?
23:31 * eric256 adds rakudo.org to his Viigo account ;) there now i can read about it on the bus in the morning ;)
23:32 pmichaud there's also http://twitter.com/rakudoperl, if you follow twitter
23:32 [particle] tene: ask, i believe
23:33 pmichaud I think there's a contact address for the mailing lists.
23:37 [particle] hrmm, where's the index page for spec.pugscode.org?
23:37 [particle] i'd like to add S19 there
23:42 ruoso joined #perl6
23:42 ruoso Hello!
23:45 ruoso is TimToady back already?
23:53 * eric256 watches parrot compile...should warnings during this worry me?
23:53 pmichaud eric256: probably not.
23:58 eric256 hehe running perl6 on the command line
23:58 eric256 that was a lot less painless than 18months ago
23:58 Tene more painful?
23:59 eric256 lmao opps err more painless or less painfull
23:59 eric256 hehe
23:59 eric256 moritz_: my t/ doesn't have a TASKS
23:59 eric256 oh woops you said in the pugs repo

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