Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-01-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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10:56 mberends masak, nice post you wrote at PlanetSix! this dogfood is quite edible!
10:56 masak mberends: which post? :)
10:57 mberends December 30 - Scripters, now is the time! I'm eating as much dogfood as possible.
10:57 * masak visits Planet Perl Six for the first time in ages
10:57 masak mberends: sounds very good.
10:57 masak I'm very happy on the effect that has on rakudobug
10:58 masak mberends++
10:58 mberends masak++ ;)
10:59 masak mberends: you just entered us into "THe Club of Self-Praise" :P
10:59 mberends oops!
10:59 * masak wonders if there's a karma bot out there that detects cycles
10:59 mberends ebay has those
10:59 masak ah. of course.
11:00 mberends a question that bothers me is side by side deployment (soon) of Perl 5 and Perl 6
11:01 masak mberends: bothers you in which way?
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11:05 masak mberends: I can assure you that it's been on my mind too, by the way. not having access to CPAN is a surefire way to realize its worth.
11:07 mberends looking at how perl4 lingered on after perl5 came out, there will be a *very* long period of coexistence. But as soon as possible, we should stop calling Rakudo perl6 and just call it perl. I expect numerous name collisions. It's ugly to have extensions like .p6 as well. My current project is a perldoc for pod6, but it will name collide with the inevitable 5.x that will also be there.
11:08 mberends yes, the Perl 6 section in CPAN has only some Perl 5 emulations of Perl 6 features.
11:09 masak mberends: I don't think the transition to Perl 6 will be so bad. It will take time, that's all.
11:09 masak mberends: have you tried writing 'use v6' into newer versions of Perl 5.x?
11:10 masak mberends: (btw, that's why you should prefix all your Perl 6 scripts with 'use v6')
11:11 masak mberends: we've had thoughts of putting November on CPAN. so far we haven't.
11:11 dtr2 I need some help with ilbot install, http://www.orderofatlas.com/​cgi-bin/ilbot_test2/index.pl - notice how the #ilbot - Today links are messed up? I can't seem to fix it
11:12 masak dtr2: is that a Perl 6 question? doesn't sound like one.
11:12 dtr2 ilbot readme says to come here for help.
11:12 masak dtr2: ah. sorry.
11:12 dtr2 it was created by an op here
11:12 masak who wrote ilbot?
11:12 dtr2 moritz_, was hoping he'd be here
11:12 masak he is, usually.
11:13 masak @tell moritz ping from dtr2 who has trouble installing ilbot.
11:13 lambdabot Consider it noted.
11:14 dtr2 thanks
11:14 masak good luck.
11:14 masak speaking of bots...
11:15 masak maybe I should take a crack at writing that spec-ack bot today.
11:16 mberends my approach has been more spartan: just stop writing perl5 code and do whatever is possible with rakudo. as you wrote, it shakes the language harder than 6000 tests, and is the only way to learn. consider me an eager early adopter.
11:16 dtr2 i would rather make my own but my client wants ilbot installed, so i can't argue
11:16 masak mberends: I'm 100% with you on that. although I still need Perl 5 occasionally.
11:16 masak dtr2: :)
11:21 buu What is spec-ack?
11:21 masak buu: a common thing we Perl 6 devs do is to run 'ack' (a relative to 'grep') on the Perl 6 specification directory.
11:22 masak moritz_++ recently suggested that we could turn that task into a bot, somewhat like perl6eval
11:22 buu Ah.
11:23 buu What would the output look like?
11:24 masak buu: minimally, a set of references of the form Sxx:llll
11:24 masak buu: but perhaps also a few words before and after.
11:26 buu Where do they live?
11:27 masak docs/Perl6/Spec/*.pod in the Pugs repo.
11:27 buu Ah.
11:27 masak buu: you have a bot, don't you?
11:28 buu Yes.
11:28 * mberends quickly does 'sudo apt-get install ack-grep'
11:28 masak buu: any beginner tips? what's the fastest route to putting a bot in this channel?
11:28 * masak wishes there were a bot toolkit
11:29 buu Well
11:29 buu You could make a buubot plugin extremely simply.
11:29 masak \o/
11:30 masak buubot: who's a cure little bot? who's a cute little bot? YOU are! yes, you are.
11:30 dtr2 i don't know much about perl, but from reading source of ilbot(many times) there's a simple bot mod
11:30 masak dtr2: aye, there is. several, even.
11:31 masak buu: does buubot run from feather?
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11:32 * ruoso just suggested supporting routine_def:<coro> in STD ;)
11:32 mberends buu: 378/9 # Turing test for bots
11:33 buu masak: No..
11:34 masak I'm thinking of just making something small from POE::Component::IRC and putting it on feather.
11:37 masak Juerd: is there a central, regularly svn upped Pugs directory on feather?
11:39 masak mberends: re extensions: generally, I prefer having no extension at all on my scripts. that solves the .pl/.p6 issue. extension don't work anyway (as sufficient clues for programs who want to process the file). I use a shebang line instead.
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11:48 buu Ok, that was way too much effort.
11:49 buu buubot: ackspec control
11:49 buubot buu: S01-overview.pod:0 S02-bits.pod:15 S03-operators.pod:7 S04-control.pod:38 S05-regex.pod:20 S06-routines.pod:12 S07-iterators.pod:0 S09-data.pod:0 S10-packages.pod:1 S11-modules.pod:0 S12-objects.pod:2 S13-overloading.pod:1 S16-io.pod:3 S17-concurrency.pod:4 S19-commandline.pod:0 S22-package-format.pod:1 S26-documentation.pod:1 S29-functions.pod:5
11:49 masak buu: nice.
11:50 buu buubot: ackspec continuation
11:50 buubot buu: S01-overview.pod:0 S02-bits.pod:0 S03-operators.pod:0 S04-control.pod:4 S05-regex.pod:0 S06-routines.pod:0 S07-iterators.pod:0 S09-data.pod:0 S10-packages.pod:0 S11-modules.pod:0 S12-objects.pod:0 S13-overloading.pod:0 S16-io.pod:0 S17-concurrency.pod:1 S19-commandline.pod:0 S22-package-format.pod:0 S26-documentation.pod:0 S29-functions.pod:0
11:50 masak do you think you could filter away those with 0 hits?
11:50 buu Hrm, yeah
11:50 buu Stupid grep.
11:50 masak also, a synonym 'spack' would be much appreciated :)
11:51 masak buu++
11:53 buu buubot: spack continuation
11:53 buubot buu: S04-control.pod:4 S17-concurrency.pod:1
11:53 masak excellent.
11:53 ruoso cool
11:53 ruoso buubot: spack coroutine
11:53 masak buubot++
11:53 buubot masak:  To be  or not to be, that's what the question is! or not to be, that's what the question is or not to be, that's what the question is or not to be, that's what the question is. Ain't that so, GumbyBRAIN? I think it is: that's what some smart dude said. or not to be, that's what the question is. Ain't that so, GumbyBRAIN? I think it is: that's what
11:53 buu haha
11:53 buu what
11:53 ruoso buubot: spack coro
11:53 masak :D
11:54 ruoso buubot doesn't like e
11:54 ruoso s/e/me/
11:54 buu I think I broke it.
11:54 buu One sec.
11:54 masak the people shouts 'we demand our buubot'
11:54 masak s/s//
11:55 masak today seems to be a day when wishes come true :) so, may I also wish for a resurrection of run.pugscode.org, but for Rakudo? I think that'd be great for people who'd like to play with Rakudo, but are too lazy/hesitant to download it just yet.
11:56 buu buubot: spack continuation
11:56 buubot buu: S04-control.pod:4 S17-concurrency.pod:1
11:56 ruoso buubot: spack coroutine
11:56 buubot ruoso: Sorry, I couldn't find any matches for: coroutine
11:56 ruoso buubot: spack coro
11:56 buubot ruoso: S17-concurrency.pod:6
11:56 ruoso :P
11:56 masak now who put that there, I ask. :)
11:57 buu I'm just searching over a svn co out of uh
11:57 buu Perl6/spec
11:57 masak right.
11:57 ruoso masak, I think someone who also thought that routine_declarator:<coro> is a nice thing to support
11:57 masak ruoso: I think you might be right.
11:58 masak Pugs has coro, methinks.
11:58 buu I could make the plugin try to svn up
11:58 buu I'll have to think about it.
11:58 masak buu: that might be a good idea.
11:59 masak buu: perhaps put in a 'last-updated' check, so it doesn't update every time.
11:59 buu I don't want to do it too often.
11:59 ruoso pugs: coro foo { yields 1; yields 2 }; say foo(); say foo();
11:59 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&yields"␤    at /tmp/4MDhPIDoL1 line 1, column 12-20␤»
11:59 ruoso pugs: coro foo { yield 1; yield 2 }; say foo(); say foo();
11:59 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
11:59 ruoso indeed
11:59 masak ruoso: just 'yield', I think.
11:59 buu http://erxz.com/pb/14490
11:59 buu spack.pm ^
12:00 ruoso TimToady, can I have a ponie^W^Wcoro in STD?
12:00 masak buu: nice.
12:01 masak buu: I understand that you've also reached the ideal of 'no bot restart'.
12:02 buu Sure.
12:02 masak impressive.
12:03 buu bb2 is pretty cool, but I'm currently in the middle of bb3
12:03 buu Which is Moar Better.
12:03 masak I should do that with my bot. need modularization first, though.
12:03 masak buu: ok, what's the big difference?
12:03 masak lunch &
12:04 buu Like every other rewrite it's essentially a giant refactor, I drop code I don't need, I modularize code I do need, and I've fairly radically changed the interface.
12:04 buu bb2 has a bunch of design decisions that nobody but me understands.
12:04 * ruoso needs to focus on other projects...
12:04 masak :)
12:05 buu For example..
12:05 * ruoso is too much addicted to Perl 6 development
12:05 buu buubot: echo 2+2
12:05 buubot buu: 2+2
12:05 buu buubot: echo 2+2 | eval
12:05 buubot buu:  4
12:05 buu buubot: echo: 2+2 | eval
12:05 buubot buu: 2+2 | eval
12:05 buu Nobody in the entire world has ever understood that particular feature.
12:06 mberends buubot: echo 378/9 | eval
12:06 buubot mberends:  42
12:07 mberends buubot++
12:07 buubot mberends:  To be  or not to be, that's what the question is! or not to be, that's what the question is or not to be, that's what the question is or not to be, that's what the question is. Ain't that so, GumbyBRAIN? I think it is: that's what some smart dude said. or not to be, that's what the question is. Ain't that so, GumbyBRAIN? I think it is: that's what
12:08 buu I think you can also do..
12:08 buu buubot: eval $(echo 2+2)
12:08 buubot buu:  4
12:09 mberends handy
12:09 ruoso buu, can this to be or not to be message be shorter? people here is used to add karma to everything....
12:10 buu buubot: forget++
12:10 buu buubot: forget ++
12:10 buubot buu: I forgot
12:10 buu buubot++
12:11 ruoso cool
12:11 buu It's a bit of a flaw.
12:25 * ruoso logs off from irc, so he can focus on other projects... (Perl 6 development can be very addictive)
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12:48 masak ruoso: tell me about it.
12:51 * clintongormley wishes he had time to get addicted to p6 :(
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13:00 Juerd masak: There's the svk repository itself...
13:01 Juerd masak: http://feather.perl6.nl/svk.html
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13:10 rakudo_svn r34804 | masak++ | [rakudo] corrected documentation -- C<eval> is not to be found in
13:10 rakudo_svn r34804 | masak++ | src/builtins/eval.pir, but src/builtins/control.pir
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13:37 pugs_svn r24732 | particle++ | [spec] get rid of ugly and confusing C<+option> syntax (bad unix memes)--
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13:46 pugs_svn r24733 | pmurias++ | [smop]
13:46 pugs_svn r24733 | pmurias++ | fix memory leakage from p5 interop
13:46 pugs_svn r24733 | pmurias++ | t/p5.t still suffers from memory leakage cause by a knowhow
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14:15 masak pmurias: : a memory leakage caused by a knowhow?
14:15 pugs_svn r24734 | particle++ | [spec] options must appear before script name; update version/date metadata
14:17 pmurias knowhows leak memory in smop
14:17 masak pmurias: what are they?
14:17 pmurias knowhows are primitive classes used for bootstraping the metamodel
14:18 masak aha.
14:18 pmurias s/primitive/simplified
14:18 * masak has to go
14:20 rakudo_svn r34808 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 264 files, 5911 passing, 0 failing
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15:10 masak there's a pir script examples/library/ncurses_life.pir in the Parrot repo. I'm interested in ways to get ncurses to work from inside of Rakudo.
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15:11 masak that, along with the reading of single characters, would make realtime ASCII games such as nibbles possible.
15:12 pmichaud I'm really focused on getting the rvar branch finished today, but can look at it when I need a break or when I'mdone
15:12 pmichaud (tickets are stacking up in the rt queue, and the rvar branch resolves many of them)
15:13 masak pmichaud: woot. good luck with the branch.
15:13 pmichaud it's going very well.
15:13 [particle] when a hash autovivifies a key, what's the value?
15:13 lambdabot [particle]: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:13 masak rwar!
15:13 [particle] @messages
15:13 lambdabot moritz_ said 18d 19h 43m 3s ago: I've glanced over S19 and I think there should be an --encoding option to specify the encoding of the source file
15:13 [particle] @messages erase
15:13 lambdabot You don't have any new messages.
15:13 pmichaud particle:  depends on the value type of the hash, I suspect
15:13 [particle] grr. how do i erase that message?
15:14 masak [particle]: it's erased.
15:14 [particle] no, it's not, it keeps coming back
15:14 pmichaud my Int %h;    #  keys autovivify to Int protoobject
15:14 masak [particle]: oh.
15:14 [particle] pmichaud: i'm thinking of command-line options here
15:14 pmichaud [particle]: example?
15:14 [particle] :name=val1,val2,val3
15:14 [particle] :name has an @ sig, so accepts a list
15:15 [particle] if i provide an empty list, like :name
15:15 [particle] what happens?
15:15 pmichaud why does :name get an @sig ?
15:15 [particle] hang on...
15:15 pmichaud (haven't read S19, so I'm behind)
15:15 [particle] here's some text i'm working on:
15:16 [particle] it's not in S19 yet
15:16 [particle] Option signatures determine how many values the option may take.
15:16 [particle] Options with a C<Bool> signature are boolean flags, which do not take a value.
15:16 [particle] Options with a C<$> signature accept a single value, which B<must> be provided (there is no default).
15:16 [particle] Options with a C<@> signature accept a list of values.
15:16 [particle] something like: "If no values are passed, and empty list is generated."
15:17 [particle] or, "At least one value must be passed."
15:17 [particle] are the possibilities i see atm
15:17 pmichaud where do the signatures come from?
15:17 [particle] they'll be defined per-option
15:17 [particle] -e is $, -c is Bool
15:18 pmichaud do they need to be?
15:18 [particle] i don't think any perl6 options will be @, but these rules apply to Perl 6 scripts as well
15:19 [particle] this affects MAIN
15:20 pmichaud why isn't it just:
15:20 pmichaud multi sub MAIN(:$e, Bool :$c, :@foo)
15:22 [particle] well, i need to somehow specify long and short names, for one
15:23 pmichaud multi sub MAIN( :e($exec), Bool :c($compile), :f(@foo) )
15:23 pmichaud (S06 already has this.)
15:23 [particle] ah, thanks, forgot that syntax.
15:24 [particle] still, what happens with :f(@foo) when it's passed with no list?
15:24 pmichaud it should be an empty list, yes?
15:24 [particle] the hash exists, but has no key/value pairs, i suppose
15:25 pmichaud what "hash"?
15:25 pmichaud I see no hash there.
15:25 [particle] er, array with no values
15:25 pmichaud right, it's an array with no values.
15:25 [particle] sorry, i'm sleep- and food-deprived atm
15:25 pmichaud and if the list is required, then one would do   :f(@foo)!
15:26 pmichaud but note that (imo)   :f($foo)   should still accept a list option
15:26 [particle] right-o. so i'll write out the signature for perl6 and be done with it. is that only or multi? hrmm
15:27 [particle] pmichaud: you mean like -e "$_ = 'hello';",".say"
15:27 pmichaud i.e., if I have  :f($foo),  then I should still get a list as a result of   --foo=val1,val2,val3
15:28 pmichaud if the option syntax supports that mechanicm of passing arguments, then yes.
15:28 pmichaud I didn't see that in S06, though.
15:28 [particle] :name=val1,'val 2',etc     :name«val1 'val 2' etc»
15:28 [particle] On command line...         $*ARGS capture gets...
15:28 [particle] i should have prefaced that
15:29 pmichaud yes, I'm looking at the same table.
15:29 pmichaud --name val1 'val 2' etc    :name«val1 'val 2' etc» # only if declared @
15:29 pmichaud how would --name know when to stop processing arguments?
15:30 [particle] when it runs across another option, i gather
15:30 [particle] i'm not 100% on that one yet, it's timtoady's from long ago, and needs some testing imo
15:31 pmichaud how do we do the "only if declared @" part?
15:31 s1n [particle]: i like how s19 is turning out
15:31 [particle] s1n: thanks!
15:31 pmichaud looks like it has to introspect MAIN
15:31 s1n i've been watching the commits, it's looking cleaner
15:32 s1n i'm still on the fence about the {} block thing though
15:32 xinming joined #perl6
15:33 pmichaud introspecting MAIN as a set of multis is going to be .... interesting.
15:33 [particle] yeah, i know. :(
15:33 s1n [particle]: wait, is --n=value shorthand for --name=value?
15:33 [particle] s1n: yes
15:33 [particle] er, no
15:33 pmichaud s1n: it is if 'n' is the shortname for 'name'
15:33 [particle] -n=value is short name for --name=value (note single -)
15:34 s1n okay
15:34 pmichaud oh, right.
15:34 s1n that email you sent said otherwise
15:34 [particle] no, the email says if you want to set 'n' to 'value', use --n=value
15:35 pmichaud ('n' can be a longname also)
15:35 [particle] -n=value will set name to value (assuming...)
15:35 s1n i'm confused
15:36 [particle] multi sub MAIN(:n($name), :$n);
15:36 s1n so is -n or --n shorthand?
15:36 [particle] myprog --name=value1 -n=value2 --n=value3
15:36 s1n what's the difference between --n=value and -n=value?
15:37 [particle] sets :name to value2, and :n to value3
15:37 [particle] they're different variables
15:37 s1n oh..
15:37 [particle] -n is short name for --name
15:37 [particle] --n is its own variable
15:37 s1n okay, that's... where do you draw the line on the shortening of those variables?
15:37 * masak sees possible occasions for confusion there
15:37 s1n is --na shorthand for --name?
15:37 [particle] no
15:37 * s1n agrees with masak
15:38 [particle] -\w never -\w+
15:38 s1n i think that'll be a sore spot
15:38 pmichaud I'm not sure that Perl 6 allows   :n($name) :$n
15:38 s1n in most, if not all, unix commands, shorthanding options uses only 1 -
15:38 s1n --pretend equals -p
15:38 s1n not --p
15:39 [particle] s1n. that's the same here
15:39 masak [particle]: what's the advantage of having both -n and --n?
15:39 pmichaud s1n:  --p isn't a shorthand
15:39 s1n what?
15:39 smtms joined #perl6
15:39 [particle] -p is short for --pretend
15:39 s1n you just said --n would set --name
15:39 [particle] --p is the long name for --p
15:39 [particle] -n sets --name
15:39 pmichaud but particle, this might all be moot
15:39 [particle] --n sets --n
15:39 pmichaud sub MAIN( :n($name), :$n )    #  might be illegal
15:40 [particle] pmichaud: yes, i'll have to raise that as a question, i suppose
15:40 s1n oh, okay, well, that'll be fun
15:40 [particle] ...enough rope...
15:40 pmichaud I don't think we can have two named parameters with the same name.
15:40 s1n imho (which may not be worth anything), that's going to confuse people
15:40 pmichaud s1n: I don't think it's going to work that way in practice.
15:41 pmichaud normally someone would do
15:41 [particle] it'd work out better for me to implement it if you can't have -p and --p
15:41 pmichaud sub MAIN( :p($pretend) )
15:41 [particle] maybe outlaw single-letter long names?
15:41 s1n [particle]: i would agree, --p _and_ -p would not be a good idea
15:41 pmichaud and then --p  would result in a "parameter 'p' not found"
15:41 masak [particle]: I was just going to say that :)
15:41 s1n [particle]: yes
15:41 pmichaud no need to outlaw single-letter long names
15:42 s1n single letter long names greatly confuses matters
15:42 pmichaud only because you all are likely starting from a false premise
15:42 pmichaud if I write
15:42 pmichaud sub MAIN( :$q )
15:42 s1n pmichaud: that premise being that they're generally not accepted anywhere else?
15:42 pmichaud then I would expect --q to work
15:42 pugs_svn r24735 | particle++ | [S19] explain how script passed on command-line or via STDIN works
15:43 [particle] pmichaud: and you'd also expect -q to work
15:43 pmichaud [particle]: yes.
15:43 pmichaud so "outlawing single letter names" isn't the write answer here.
15:43 s1n that's enough rope to not only hang yourself but also the guy next to you
15:43 [particle] *right. yeah.
15:43 pmichaud s1n: the false premise being that a single-letter name can serve as both a shortcut for a different long name and a long name in its own right
15:44 s1n well, pmichaud may have more authority than i, but my vote is to disambiguate the two
15:44 pmichaud I did.
15:44 pmichaud (disambiguate the two)
15:44 s1n by allowing --p as a long name?
15:45 pmichaud s1n: by saying that if --p is a long name there can't be a separate -p short name.
15:46 s1n oh i didn't catch where you said that
15:46 s1n well, if you have one, then you can't have the other, that's fine too
15:46 [particle] yep, i'll work up some text on that, after i finish writing the signature for perl6
15:46 [particle] ut oh.
15:47 [particle] perl6 -e "foo()" -e6 "bar()"
15:47 [particle] hrmm, i guess that could work
15:47 [particle] as long as -e and -e6 contain full statements
15:47 pmichaud -e6 is short for -e=6, yes?
15:47 s1n [particle]: why the 6?
15:47 jhorwitz joined #perl6
15:47 [particle] Execute in lax mode, without strictures and warnings enabled.
15:48 pmichaud is that -e -6   or -e=6 ?
15:48 [particle] ah, right, good catch
15:48 pmichaud seems to me we can't have a single '-' with a long name
15:48 s1n or maybe just -6 or -x
15:49 [particle] i'm thinking -6
15:49 pmichaud also, there doesn't seem to be a way to do -6
15:49 s1n are there any plans for something like -l in perl5?
15:49 pmichaud sub MAIN( :6($six) )   # not legal, afaik
15:49 pmichaud I suppose one could get -6 via the slurpy hash
15:49 s1n oh, i guess that's -F
15:49 [particle] that's problematic
15:50 masak oh, we're >200 perl6 bugs.
15:50 pmichaud masak: many of those are duplicates
15:50 pugs_svn r24736 | pmurias++ | [smop] method calls on p5 objects use Coro
15:50 s1n masak: that means we're getting attention now :)
15:50 masak ok.
15:50 pmichaud and about a dozen or so are fixed in the rvar branch already
15:52 s1n [particle]: are ++ options able to be abbreviated as well? it doesn't look like it to my untrained eye heh
15:52 [particle] no
15:52 s1n bummer
15:53 [particle] they're meant to stand out because they're special
15:53 s1n that's why they're shouted heh
15:53 [particle] so they're long name only, and uppercase
15:53 s1n [particle]: what about a shorthand for --doc?
15:54 hercynium joined #perl6
15:54 [particle] i don't think it needs it, but it might be -d
15:54 s1n it's the only long name without
15:57 [particle] pmichaud: how do i specify 0 or one values for a named param? use a where clause?
15:57 [particle] ah, i can use default, nevermind.
15:57 pmichaud how do you mean "0 or one values"?
15:57 [particle] :O($output-format), # 0 or 1 values
15:58 [particle] it defaults to 'exe'
15:58 pmichaud so, you mean   :O($output-format) = 'exe'     ?
15:58 [particle] yep
15:58 pmichaud right
15:58 pmichaud named parameters are already optional (0 or 1 values)
15:59 [particle] right, but it can be specified without a value and accepts the default
15:59 pmichaud yes.
15:59 [particle] so, done.
16:00 pmichaud do we really expect all perl6's to be able to produce an executable?
16:01 [particle] what do we expect, an ast? parse tree?
16:01 pmichaud what if someone wrote a perl 6 interpreter?
16:01 pmichaud it just seems weird.
16:02 [particle] so, no default, every value is impl-specific?
16:02 pmichaud but yes, I suppose we could say "if an implementation does this, this is how it should do it"
16:02 pmichaud I wonder what Parrot would do if we didn't have the pbctoexe option.
16:03 [particle] cry.
16:03 estrabd joined #perl6
16:03 pmichaud and is an implementation allowed to "cheat" by simply writing the source to a file with the executable bit set?  ;-)
16:04 pmurias mildew atm produces an executable by default when passed an -o
16:05 simcop2387 joined #perl6
16:06 [particle] s1n: the reason i don't use -d, -o, or -c for a short name for --doc is that two of them are used, and -d will confuse perl 5 programmers
16:06 pmichaud keep huffman in mind when doing short names also
16:06 [particle] of course
16:08 pugs_svn r24737 | particle++ | [spec] add signature for perl6, and make --output-format entirely implementation-specific
16:13 [particle] >perl -e "my $x = 0;" -e "print $x" -e "if $x"
16:13 [particle] >perl -e "my $x = 1;" -e "print $x" -e "if $x"
16:13 [particle] 1
16:13 [particle] this will be a problem with -e6
16:13 [particle] i mean, mixing -e and -e6
16:13 kisu__ joined #perl6
16:17 pugs_svn r24738 | particle++ | [spec] add note about dangers of mixing -e and -e6
16:17 s1n [particle]: can i request a section describing ++CMD, i'd like to see more about that
16:18 [particle] yep, will do. need to replace ++RTS section with one describing all ++ metasyntax
16:18 s1n that sounds good
16:19 s1n is -e6 still a good idea?
16:24 eric256 joined #perl6
16:24 eric256 perlmonks has a post about perl6 development at http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=733639 if someone wants to go say hi ;)
16:27 stephens joined #perl6
16:27 masak eric256: interesting. I might add something to that one.
16:28 s1n why is everyone intent on bringing up the fact that there hasn't been a 1.0 release of perl6? i'd rather wait 20 years for a language/compiler that does everything i want than get something like python 3000
16:28 masak s1n: fwiw, I don't think Python 3000 is all bad.
16:29 eric256 s1n: because then there would be something and not nothing ;) flame wars aside an nice release of even a limited version of specs would be nice.  as it is they can pretty much all still change completly
16:29 eric256 i don't fault anyone for wanting something now rather than later. thats just human nature
16:30 s1n eric256: there is something, the spec, parrot, rakudo, smop
16:30 masak eric256: there are monthly releases of Parrot.
16:30 s1n saying there's nothing is just lazy whining
16:30 s1n the work the guys in here put into perl6 is like a full-time job
16:31 s1n just because there aren't hordes of developers like python doesn't mean it doesn't exist
16:32 masak eric256: I understand your comment, but there are regular releases of something. I don't think that the Rakudo devs are holding anyu
16:32 masak ...holding anything back.
16:33 masak that's what makes me so enthusiastic about current Perl 6 development.
16:33 masak and that's what I want to make known in my blog posts.
16:34 s1n how many releases of parrot have there been? remember, each one of them includes a release of perl6 (now)...
16:34 masak s1n: I don't know. at least one each month during 2008.
16:34 s1n so that's at least 12
16:34 masak and the history of Rakudo doesn't go back much further than that.
16:34 masak (I think.)
16:35 s1n so there have been at least 1 year of perl6 releases
16:35 s1n whether you like the implementation in there or not is not the point
16:35 s1n it's still there
16:35 masak aye
16:35 masak the trick is to let the right target group find that out at the right moment :)
16:36 masak early adopters, etc
16:36 s1n i wish people would stop citing the "8 years of development" thing and just check the svn history already
16:36 masak s1n: some people, yes.
16:36 masak Rakudo is not for everyone, yet.
16:36 s1n yet
16:37 s1n at the very least it could be a toy for them
16:37 s1n something to dip their toes into
16:37 s1n so what if it doesn't toast your bread yet, it's there
16:37 masak I'm acutely aware of that. I can make Rakudo segfault consistently on only slightly advanced stuff.
16:37 eric256 s1n:  thats fine for people who are in the know. but for a regular perl5 developer looking at it all you have are specs that contsantly change. so its not lazy whining
16:37 s1n so, how many bugs are reported against various other compilers though?
16:38 eric256 and i'm not saying that all the work contributed is nothing
16:38 masak s1n: the point is that some target groups don't care about Rakudo in its current state. and they're totally in their right to do so.
16:38 s1n posts like that suggest that much though
16:38 eric256 but there is no perl6 yet, parrot isn't perl6
16:38 masak eric256: what do you mean 'there is no perl6 yet'?
16:38 s1n they don't have to care, implying there's nothing because there's no concrete compiler is just writing off all the hard work these people do
16:39 s1n see
16:39 s1n that's what i'm talking about
16:39 eric256 perl6 specs can change at a moments notice right? so there is no perl6 as gospel yet
16:39 masak eric256: I think saying that like it's true can be a dangerous thing. I know you know Rakudo exists.
16:39 masak eric256: that's a feature, not a bug.
16:39 eric256 masak: maybe ;)
16:39 s1n "there is no perl6 yet" ~~ "you guys don't have anything even remotely stable or useful, thus there is nothing yet"
16:39 eric256 but it means that people can't right perl6 code and expect it to keep working in 6 months cause the spec could change
16:39 pmurias eric256: that perl6 spec have to change as things are uncovered during implementation
16:40 s1n that's just a slap in the face to everyone's hard work
16:40 masak eric256: no, not maybe. note "the community's rewrite of the community". that's what's happening right now with the specs.
16:40 eric256 s1n: you can read it that way, but thats not the same thing
16:40 pmichaud the spec doesn't change in its fundamentals anymore.
16:40 eric256 pmurias: definitly i'm not saying they shouldn't change
16:40 pmichaud the changes to the spec tend to be very esoteric things that matter to implementors more than end users.
16:40 eric256 or that this isn't the right process, i just want to put there comments in perpective
16:40 pmichaud or refinements to the spec.
16:40 eric256 perspective...err however you spell that
16:40 pmichaud on another topic, for those who would like to help spread another resource:  http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?rakudo_feature_status
16:41 masak s1n: Rakudo is remotely stable, just not stable :)
16:41 pmichaud I figure a wiki page might be easier to search than RT.
16:41 pmichaud (also, feel free to add comments and other items to that page)
16:41 eric256 pmichaud++ i was thinking about goint through RT and doing something similar. mind if i make those links to the actual bugs?
16:42 s1n i personally think that rakudo is looking great
16:42 pmichaud eric256: I don't mind, no.  And the idea came from someone via priv msg.
16:42 eric256 s1n: it definitly is
16:42 s1n the work these guys have done is amazing
16:42 pmichaud (and I thought:  gee, we really need that list now.)
16:42 pmichaud actually, the original question was "what does work"?   :-)
16:42 s1n how pmichaud and [particle] et. all can do this work and still have a job/family is amazing
16:42 pmurias eric256: and most of the things that work in rakudo won't change
16:43 masak Rakudo can be used for more things already than people perhaps realize.
16:43 eric256 pmurias: i hope so ;)
16:43 s1n eric256: the real question is not "what works?" it should be "what doesn't work?"
16:44 s1n people don't say it enough, but i am personally very thankful these guys bust their hump in the name of perl6
16:44 s1n just because they're not fast, is no reason to write it off as "no release"
16:45 s1n (fast as in as fast as the hordes of python devs)
16:45 s1n in fact, pmichaud, i owe you a beer (since you actually live in my town) heh
16:47 eric256 s1n: couldn't agree with you more
16:47 eric256 i'm looking forward to line numbers in errors so we can get a good smoke report of rakudo going
16:47 masak s1n: where does the idea that Python devs are faster than Perl 6 devs come from? the Python devs are not trying to implement Perl 6 :)
16:48 kisu joined #perl6
16:48 eric256 now we just need to get masak to update the wiki with all his bugs ;)
16:48 s1n masak: i agree, but there are many more of them than us
16:48 masak eric256: hey! I'm busy finding bugs.
16:48 pmichaud I don't need a list of all bugs -- that's what RT is for.  I just want to get the "common" ones that tend to trip people up.
16:48 masak why would I want to do double work?
16:48 eric256 masak++
16:48 eric256 pmichaud: definitly
16:48 pmichaud e.g., the problems with parameter passing, and with autovivification, laziness,e tc.
16:49 masak seriously. don't reinvent RT.
16:49 masak describing things is ok, I guess.
16:49 masak sort of a FAQ for common bugs, as pmichaud says.
16:49 s1n pmichaud: i agree, get the fundamentals working, and while people start playing with that you can get the more esoteric and fringe features working
16:49 rindolf joined #perl6
16:51 s1n i think while all these guys fight the good fight, there's still 2 jobs that kinda need to be filled: bug wranglers and implementors/evangelists
16:52 eric256 are all perl6 bugs on RT for rakudo? or are there still pugs bugs in there?
16:53 xinming_ joined #perl6
16:53 pmichaud pugs never used RT
16:53 eric256 oh good. could have swarn i saw a bug for pugs in there. odd musta misread
16:54 * pmichaud goes back to rvar branch.
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17:11 eric256 particle++ excellent reply to the above perlmonks link
17:11 masak eric256, s1n: I've had the "Perl 6 doesn't exist yet" discussion before on the channel. it didn't end well. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2008-11-12#i_683777
17:12 masak there's always the tradeoff between correcting people and keeping them around.
17:14 eric256 s1n:  you need to add a job to your list to be filled: PR :)
17:14 s1n masak: he was bad mouthing perl5 too, did you expect much out of that?
17:15 s1n eric256: PR is the last resort of failure
17:15 masak s1n: I don't know. I expected him to be reasonable. he seemed a reasonable person.
17:15 eric256 s1n: naw. its getting the public to see it your way
17:15 eric256 thats much different
17:15 s1n no, it's not
17:15 masak s1n: what makes you say that? in the best case, PR is automatic. done by a satisfied community.
17:16 pmichaud particle++  # excellent reply.
17:16 s1n masak: i agree, having to go out and tell other people by that our product actually isn't crap is like admitting there's some validity to their thought
17:16 masak s1n: sure.
17:16 s1n if it isn't crap, everyone will act as PR for us, not the other way around
17:17 masak s1n: that's not what I want to say either.
17:17 eric256 dictionary.com lists it as " The art or science of establishing and promoting a favorable relationship with the public."
17:17 masak s1n: saying "Rakudo isn't crap!" would indeed be counterproductive. :)
17:17 s1n masak: saying it isn't vaporware is the same thing
17:18 masak s1n: no. "crap" is subjective. "vapourware" is fact.
17:18 s1n if we want PR, the best kind are implementations, actual software
17:18 eric256 masak,  s1n: "Rakudo implements perl6" isn't the same as saying "perl6 does exist"
17:18 masak eric256: to me, it is.
17:18 eric256 thats why you need a PR person ;) lol
17:18 eric256 well not you
17:18 eric256 we
17:18 eric256 us
17:18 eric256 them
17:18 s1n telling people that is just semantics
17:18 eric256 it?
17:19 eric256 the world goes round on semantics
17:19 masak this is a very interesting discussion. but I have to go. see you tomorrow.
17:19 eric256 you were just pretty vocal about semantics a minute ago
17:19 eric256 later masak
17:19 s1n my 2 cents? get rakudo in it's own repo on it's own release cycle
17:19 s1n _that's_ PR
17:20 eric256 and fixing the wikis to point to it instead of pugs, or both equally
17:20 s1n people don't see it as existing now because it's bundled with parrot, but being bundled with parrot has really moved things along
17:20 eric256 it is hard to find
17:20 xinming joined #perl6
17:20 s1n all of that could effectively be handled once rakudo is stand-alone
17:20 kst joined #perl6
17:20 eric256 i've been trying to do my part on that as well. working on the wiki etc
17:22 s1n applications like november will do more for perl6 than anything else as well
17:22 s1n when people see actual working software, they'll start playing with it themselves it's all downhill from there
17:26 [particle] people don't use a language for the language, they use it for the libraries
17:27 [particle] don't use a language for the syntax, that is
17:27 [particle] we need DBI, CGI, etc
17:27 s1n [particle]: that's not entirely true
17:27 [particle] no, but basically true
17:28 [particle] i don't use c for syntax
17:28 s1n i was drawn to perl _because_ of the syntax (and the timtowtdi way)
17:28 s1n i use c _in spite_ of the syntax heh
17:28 [particle] yes, so was i, because portable c is hard
17:28 [particle] and now look where i am... designing a perl compiler  written in portable c
17:36 * eric256 wants to right Jabber and IRC modules in perl6, but it seems to be lacking network at the moment ;)
17:38 eric256 would it make sense for smart link references to be compiled into the actualy SYN's instead of just into an HTML representation of them?
17:48 mberends in some discussions the synopsis and pod line numbers are used, eg Sxx:nnn
17:49 pmichaud except line numbers change frequently.
17:51 mberends S26 specifies L<doc:S26#definition>, a handy format similar to HTML
17:54 eric256 mberends: yea, just when editing the S i wonder if it would be usefull to link directly to the tests. i'm just thinking about it from a standpoint of wether it would be good to have the links compiled directly into the documents instead of only showing in rendered versions
17:54 pmichaud eric256: I think the concept is that the tests link to the synopses, and then we do some pre-processing to figure out the reverse links.
17:55 pmichaud as opposed to trying to put the links to the tests directly in the synopses.
17:56 eric256 the problem i have is that i look in the synopsis, then have to go online to the rendered version in order to figure out which tests it applies to.  i suppose that could be handled by making sure the test names/folders match the synopsis though
17:56 eric256 as long as one test file doesn't test multiple synopsis
17:56 pmichaud yes.  I think some test renaming can be a big help here.
17:57 pmichaud sometimes test files cover at least more than one section of a synopsis, yes.
17:57 pmichaud I'm not sure we can/should have a "test file only covers one synopsis" restriction, though.
17:57 eric256 no probably not at all
17:57 s1n isn't there a smartlink util that can link directly to the spec?
17:58 eric256 yea, it generates an HTML file though
17:58 eric256 which is quickly outdated. already had that issue with the online ones numerous times
17:58 eric256 dunno suppose some problems there is no perfect answer to
17:58 s1n well can't it just regenerate the html file?
17:59 s1n maybe mod_perl6 can help out with that some
18:01 eric256 s1n: yea. but everytime i refer to the .html files someone tells me to read the actual pod ;) but the actual pod doesn't have the actual reference
18:02 s1n hmm smells like a good idea for a perl6 implementation :)
18:02 eric256 so i was thinking about making the smarklink compiler put a link directly in the pod. i'm sure there is some way to mark it as generated and remove it later if the link is no longer valid
18:02 SamB maybe the real solution would be to keep the HTML up to date
18:03 eric256 SamB: might be
18:04 eric256 the advantage of putting it in the pod would be that any other pod2anything would be able to make use of it....
18:04 SamB true
18:13 eric256 i think enough perl6 is done that the smartlinks util could be written in it ... maybe i'll rewrite it and add the option to compile links and output pod would make that app nicer to seperate out the HTML crap ;)
18:15 mberends s1n: eric256: within about 1 week I shall have a Rakudo Pod::Parser useable...
18:15 eric256 excellent
18:17 s1n mberends: that's awesome
18:17 mberends eric256: how will uploading to your perl6-examples on github work?
18:19 eric256 mberends: i'm working on the details. currently you can request to be a collaborator and i'll add you
18:19 eric256 you can also fork it and then request to have your changed pulled in
18:19 eric256 we have a couple people using each method and both work fine. i'm hoping to get an automated way to add collaborators setup so you can just put your name in a web form and be added.
18:20 eric256 or request it of a bot in here (my real reason for wanting a perl6 irc bot ;) )
18:20 mberends please add my nick as a contributor (email at flashmail.com)
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18:21 GitHub181 perl6-examples: 3Mark A. Hershberger master0 SHA1-d003e86
18:21 GitHub181 solution to Euler problem #2 -- rakudo bug drove me crazy
18:21 GitHub181 http://is.gd/eqwY
18:21 eric256 mberends: do you have a github account with that name?
18:21 mberends yes
18:22 eric256 added
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18:23 mberends eric256++ #
18:29 mberends eric256: for a perl6 irc bot, the only blocker is socket(), connect() etc. which are promised as part of a major i/o rewrite. could you make a temporary workaround with inline PIR?
18:29 eric256 i was trying but it looked like PIR at the time was rewriting there network code as well.
18:29 eric256 that was my original plan
18:29 eric256 but i'm a bit slow on the PIR side
18:29 eric256 heh
18:30 mberends maybe next week will give me time to have a go
18:31 pugs_svn r24739 | particle++ | [spec] C<-e6> isn't a separate item, it's a idiom meaning -e '6;'; format perl6 signature, (geoff broadwell)++
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18:43 eric256 6; has special meaning?
18:47 pmurias it turns off strict when passed to -e
18:47 Chillance joined #perl6
18:48 pmurias turns on lax in Perl 6 terms
18:48 pmurias any other literal would do
19:13 japhb_ Does one of the bots know how to convert a revision number to a diff view URL?
19:13 japhb_ (And if so, which one?
19:14 [particle] not that i know of
19:14 [particle] but, the irc log does it
19:14 [particle] irc log?
19:15 [particle] http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-01-02#i_800936
19:23 japhb_ Thank you, [particle], I'd forgotten about that.
19:31 [particle] pmichaud: ping
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19:52 pmichaud [particle]: pong
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20:01 dwhipp thank you, perl6, for my xmas toy: I've had fun playing with it: http://dave.whipp.name/sw/perl6/connect4.html
20:06 [particle] pmichaud: i'm thinking about --version, which wants to pass itself to all of perl6's subsystems (parser, compiler, whatever)
20:07 [particle] if i set a top level %+ARGS entry, will it be visible in BEGIN INIT CHECK etc?
20:07 pmichaud I suspect it depends on where you set it.
20:08 pmichaud beyond that... I dunno.
20:08 [particle] ok, well, i'm wondering if contextual variables can be used like that
20:08 [particle] it'd be set as soon as its parsed on the command line
20:09 pmichaud seems reasonable at first blush
20:09 mberends dwhipp++: wicked!
20:09 pmichaud dwhipp: that is awesome.  I'd be very interested in a writeup of your overall impressions of Perl 6 and/or Rakudo at this point.
20:09 pmichaud even a short one.
20:11 dwhipp I'll try to get to it this weekend -- then it's back to my $job
20:11 * mberends beats connect4 in 9 moves ;)
20:11 pmichaud sure thing.  I really appreciate the tickets and reports you've been sending.... very helpful.
20:13 mberends hopefully this game can go into eric256's perl6-examples on github
20:14 dwhipp I have no problems with that.
20:16 dwhipp BTW, one thing that would be *really* useful before writing anything bigger would be line numbers in runtime error messages.
20:16 dwhipp I had to do a lot of binary searches using "say 'HERE'" to find where things were going wrong
20:16 [particle] they're due to be implemented within three tuesdays
20:17 [particle] (by next parrot release)
20:17 dwhipp ++
20:18 dwhipp rakudo: class A { has $.foo }; class B is A { has $.bar }; B.new( foo => 1, bar => 2)
20:18 p6eval rakudo 34834: OUTPUT«You passed an initialization parameter that does not have a matching attribute.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 14812 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
20:18 dwhipp pugs: class A { has $.foo }; class B is A { has $.bar }; B.new( foo => 1, bar => 2)
20:18 p6eval pugs: RESULT«B.new((\("bar", 2), \("foo", 1))»
20:20 s1n why is -6 for -e6 not legal?
20:22 [particle] Option names follow Perl 6 identifier naming convention, but C<'> is not allowed.
20:22 [particle] you can't start an ident with a number
20:23 s1n that's a bummer, -6 just seems fitting
20:23 [particle] that may be changed for short names
20:23 [particle] -e6 isn't much longer
20:23 [particle] ...and it doesn't need a special rule
20:24 s1n it's not much longer but it's the sore thumb, a 2 character shortname
20:27 [particle] it's not a two-char shortname, it's a one-char shortname, with a value
20:28 [particle] hrmm, wait... do i allow mushing options and values...
20:28 [particle] >perl -eprint -e6
20:28 [particle] 6
20:28 [particle] p5 does, so i do too :)
20:29 [particle] i'm not sure that's the right way to go
20:30 dwhipp rakudo: class A { has $.foo }; my A $a .=new( foo => 42 ); say $a.perl
20:30 p6eval rakudo 34835: OUTPUT«Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 158 (EVAL_13:73)␤»
20:30 dwhipp pugs: class A { has $.foo }; my A $a .=new( foo => 42 ); say $a.perl
20:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«\A.new((\("foo", 42),)␤»
20:40 eric256 linenumbers++++++++ ;)
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21:00 eric256 http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=238031 is that cheat sheet still valid?
21:02 mberends that cheat sheet worked well with pugs, but rakudo lacks stat, localtime and caller
21:02 eric256 okay but its valid, just not implemented.  just came accross it and was curious
21:02 thepler joined #perl6
21:03 * eric256 is looking for the var holding the current file name (or file handle, either would work i think)
21:05 mberends regex result is now $/ not $0
21:05 eric256 rakudo: $?FILE
21:05 p6eval rakudo 34835: OUTPUT«Lexical '$?FILE' not found␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 46 (EVAL_8:36)␤»
21:06 pugs_svn r24740 | pmurias++ | [smop]
21:06 pugs_svn r24740 | pmurias++ | overloaded bool conversion on SMOP::Object in perl5 land which calls .true
21:06 pugs_svn r24740 | pmurias++ | method call on SMOP::Object can return values
21:06 pugs_svn r24740 | pmurias++ | [mildew]
21:06 pugs_svn r24740 | pmurias++ | added t/p5_lowlevel.t which segfaults for reasons i have yet to understand ;)
21:06 mberends rakudo is rather short of special variables. it would be $*FILE for runtime
21:07 eric256 rakudo: $*FILE
21:07 p6eval rakudo 34835: RESULT«undef»
21:07 eric256 well thats better ;)   http://perlcabal.org/syn/Differences.html lists $?FILE
21:08 mberends that's a newer document, and authored by currently active developers
21:10 thepler rakudo: (undef === undef).say
21:10 p6eval rakudo 34835: OUTPUT«0␤»
21:11 thepler I expected that to be true.  Is that a bug?
21:12 eric256 rakudo: say $*GIBBERISH
21:12 p6eval rakudo 34835: OUTPUT«␤»
21:13 eric256 its not too picky on those
21:16 * eric256 finds himself wishing rakudo where in git just for the pretty fork map ;)
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21:35 * eric256 wades through rakudo code looking for where it loads a file to execute.
21:35 azawawi that would be a pir file
21:36 azawawi perl6.pir or something
21:37 eric256 yea i'm looking at .sub 'main' in there...it seems to hand off to command_line..so now its off to find that ;)
21:37 justatheory joined #perl6
21:38 azawawi another pir but in parrot runtime
21:38 azawawi i think [particle] wrote that if i remember correctly...
21:38 eric256 that would explain why i can't find it in rakudo
21:39 azawawi yeah i chased it before... ;-)
21:39 * eric256 needs a road mad
21:39 eric256 map*
21:41 eric256 ohh dear..well i think i found the name of the script running, but i'll be darned if i know anyway to get from there to src/builtins/globals.pir ;(
21:44 buu buubot: spack: continuation
21:44 buubot buu: S04-control.pod:4 S17-concurrency.pod:1
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22:28 GitHub177 joined #perl6
22:28 GitHub177 perl6-examples: 3Eric Hodges master0 SHA1-d6b801f
22:28 GitHub177 Added two windows scripting game challenges.
22:28 GitHub177 http://is.gd/erp8
22:29 buu Haha
22:29 buu what
22:30 eric256 buu: what?
22:31 buu Nothing. Ignore me. Never mind. All is well!
22:31 eric256 lmao okay
22:32 * eric256 is trying to get perl6-examples going
22:32 eric256 so we have some implemented stuff to point at ;) i'm hoping to eventualy get some bigger programs in there, but little scripts are a good start. maybe some modules eventualy
22:35 DemoPhreak joined #perl6
22:39 mberends eric256, did you try dwhipp's connect4 game above? you're allowed to github it.
22:44 eric256 did not, but that sounds good
22:45 mberends the game uses many perl6 idioms, so it's a fine example
22:55 eric256 does rakudo have file operations yet?
22:56 mberends no, but I did kludge is_file() and is_dir() if that helps?
22:57 |newbie| joined #perl6
22:57 eric256 man i can't do hardly any of the scripting games stuff without access to files ;(
22:57 eric256 lol
22:58 eric256 hmm open seems to work
22:58 mberends rakudo natively does open close =$fh unlink slurp say print
22:59 eric256 yea slurp
22:59 eric256 thanks, that will do
22:59 mberends :)
23:11 pugs_svn r24741 | pmurias++ | [smop] overloaded stringification for idconstants, numification for native integers
23:11 pugs_svn r24741 | pmurias++ | P5Coro.has_next checks if a coroutine finished (propably not neccesary)
23:11 pugs_svn r24741 | pmurias++ | overloaded numification for integers and stringification for idconstants in p5 land
23:11 pugs_svn r24741 | pmurias++ | [mildew]
23:11 pugs_svn r24741 | pmurias++ | added a very basic SDL.pm using example
23:15 eric256 wow i just discovered that scoreing bowling is harder than i thought ;)
23:15 eric256 lol
23:21 * mberends chuckles, but cannot remember bowling score rules either
23:29 s1n i bought the old perl6 that o'reilly released but it's now grown outdated
23:29 s1n is anyone working on an opened sourced version of that type of thing?
23:29 slavik scoring bowling is easy ...
23:30 slavik you just look at the scoreboard :P
23:30 eric256 lol
23:30 slavik s1n: moritz_ has a perl5 to 6 tutorial and I started work on a Perl6 tutorials type thing
23:30 eric256 (2,5,7,"/",8,1,"X",9,"/",5,3,7,0,4,5,"X",2,0)  ... i thought i had it, but i got 107 which i'm pretty sure is wrong
23:30 pmurias s1n: i have the previous edition of that book ;)
23:31 slavik s1n: so far, I think I have a good article on grammars: http://bcacm.org/~slavik
23:31 slavik :)
23:32 s1n well, i'd be really cool if we had a book that was written open source style in the same vain as the camel book
23:32 slavik s1n: look at my grammar article and feel free to write it on something else ...
23:33 s1n slavik: that's a start, but i was hoping for something like the camel book, something that's easier to read than the spec
23:33 eric256 hey compared it to an online calculator and it IS 107 ;) hurrah
23:33 slavik s1n: that's what I was aiming for ... just the bare necessities needed to use the particular feature
23:34 GitHub6 joined #perl6
23:34 GitHub6 perl6-examples: 3Eric Hodges master0 SHA1-e2e0ed3
23:34 GitHub6 Adding WSG Beginner #6
23:34 GitHub6 http://is.gd/erDx
23:34 GitHub6 perl6-examples: 3Eric Hodges master0 SHA1-dd22341
23:34 GitHub6 Adding WSG Event 10
23:34 GitHub6 http://is.gd/erDD
23:34 GitHub6 left #perl6
23:35 slavik wsg?
23:35 eric256 Windows Scripting Games
23:35 s1n eric256: took up pmichaud's suggestion?
23:36 slavik windows?!
23:36 slavik windows the os or windows the widget?
23:36 s1n slavik: it's this kinda generic programming challenge they hold
23:36 slavik windows the os or windows the widget?
23:36 eric256 s1n: yes ;)
23:37 eric256 perl ~~ "windows scripting language"....so why not?
23:37 slavik :-\
23:38 pmichaud (it's actually the "microsoft scripting games", not "windows"  :-)
23:38 slavik I see ... kill them :P
23:38 eric256 ohh....opps
23:39 eric256 oh its "Winter Scripting Games" on their site
23:39 s1n pmichaud: see beginner #2, kinda windows specific
23:41 eric256 s1n: yes some are
23:46 s1n eric, i'd love to contribute some solutions
23:46 eric256 s1n: got a github username i'll add you right now
23:46 eric256 rakudo: say any(<a b c>) ~ any(<d e f>) ~~ 'ad';
23:46 s1n s1n :)
23:46 p6eval rakudo 34839: OUTPUT«0␤»
23:47 eric256 done
23:47 s1n sweet
23:47 eric256 you can also fork and submit pull requests if you prefer, doesn't matter to me
23:47 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
23:48 s1n i'm kinda new to git, so bare (is it that or bear?) with me
23:48 eric256 me to
23:48 pmichaud "bear"
23:48 eric256 been using it for...however old that repo is
23:48 pmichaud as in "bear a burden"
23:48 * eric256 guess junctions arn't working fully yet
23:48 pmichaud I thought I had those working, though.  might check precedence of ~ and ~~
23:49 pmichaud say (any(<a b c>) ~ any(<d e f>));
23:49 pmichaud rakudo: say (any(<a b c>) ~ any(<d e f>));
23:49 p6eval rakudo 34839: OUTPUT«Junction<0xb5fca774>Junction<0xb5fc75e8>␤»
23:49 pmichaud rakudo: say (any(<a b c>) ~ any(<d e f>)).perl;
23:49 p6eval rakudo 34839: OUTPUT«"Junction<0xb6012bd​c>Junction<0xb6010348>"␤»
23:49 pmichaud maybe junctions aren't working with infix:<~> yet.
23:49 eric256 looks like it is stringiffying the junction
23:50 eric256 man that was going to make a sweet answer to the telephone number problem ;)
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