Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-01-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 mncharity re Tene's git and graphviz, am I the only one accumulating a *really big list* of "once p6 is working, I can finally do X" items?
00:02 mncharity :)
00:02 Tene mncharity: Perl 6 wouldn't make this problem much simpler.  It's already almost trivial in Perl 5.
00:06 Tene mncharity: http://pleasedieinafire.net/cgi-bin/graphviz
00:06 Tene I'd just need to add a little bit of user tracking or whatever.
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00:13 jnthn Tene: That's a pleasant domain name. :-)
00:14 Tene jnthn: I bought it originally so that I could give out my email address as 'ihateyou@pleasedieinafire.net'
00:14 Tene It's now the domain pointing to my tiny underpowered server at home.
00:14 mncharity re "add a little bit of user tracking or whatever"...  "Ruby on Rails (on Perl 6)" ;)
00:16 mncharity though I don't know if rubinius can run rails yet.  and ruby on p6 would likely be rubinius.
00:16 s1n what's up with the integration folder in the test suite?
00:20 jnthn mncharity: Alternatively, Cardinal is the Ruby on Parrot implementation, which may be another path to this some day.
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00:21 Tene I really need to give cardinal a big rewrite.
00:21 Tene lots of issues.
00:21 Tene And absurdly slow
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00:23 jnthn Tene: Is that partly because of parsing speed?
00:24 mncharity jnthn: nod
00:25 mncharity re another path some day
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00:26 GitHub197 perl6-examples: 3mberends master0 SHA1-3df922d
00:26 GitHub197 re-spelled collaborates as collaborators
00:26 GitHub197 http://is.gd/eE2z
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00:33 s1n [particle]: was there a specific reason why negated options were needed?
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01:12 pugs_svn r24783 | putter++ | [elfparse] STD_green_run: started work on --format=p5 dumping.  STD_blue_run: honor --start=RULE.  nodes_create.pl: bugfix, now tagged executable.
01:15 mncharity but... the version in svn is doing ./STD_green_run --start=integer -e 3, but not --start=number. :/  Sigh.  Debugging for another day.
01:15 mncharity good night all &
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01:56 Tene jnthn: it's all parsing speed
01:57 Tene jnthn: precompiled cardinal runs about the same as rakudo
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10:15 pugs_svn r24784 | moritz++ | [S29] typos, thinkos and wording improvements, Brandon++, Tim++
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10:44 ruoso Hello!
10:45 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { }
10:45 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«[SMOP_LOWLEVEL_MEM_TRACE] Leaking variable in global destruction: 0x8053610 (lowlevel io)␤[SMOP_LOWLEVEL_MEM_TRACE] Leaking variable in global destruction: 0x8053720 (lexical scope)␤[SMOP_LOWLEVEL_MEM_TRACE] Leaking variable in global destruction: 0x8053fc0 (S1P Package)␤[SMOP_LO...
10:45 ruoso cool... it's fixed... now we just need to get rid from the warnings in evalbot
10:46 Matt-W Hello ruoso
10:46 ruoso hello Matt-W
10:52 moritz_ ruoso: just introduce a switch or env var that supresses these warnings
10:53 ruoso there's a compile-time switch
10:53 moritz_ (I had to rm -rf the build dir, wrong permissions...)
10:53 masak greetings, Perl 6 buckaneers.
10:53 ruoso moritz_, you can disable it in SConstruct
10:54 moritz_ @tell azawawi I've updated all debian packages on feather; re screenshot: very cool ;-)
10:54 lambdabot Consider it noted.
10:54 moritz_ ruoso: how?
10:54 ruoso moritz_, just remove -DSMOP_LOWLEVEL_MEM_TRACE
10:54 ruoso from SConstruct
10:57 moritz_ mildew: knowhow Foo { }
10:57 p6eval mildew: RESULT«unimplemented:  at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 108␤   AST::Helpers::XXX() called at src/VAST/noun.pm line 31␤   VAST::noun::emit_m0ld('VAS​T::noun=HASH(0xd145080)') called at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 131␤        AST::Helpers::EXPR('VAST::EXPR=HASH(0xd142fb0)') called at src/VAST/EXPR.pm
10:57 p6eval ..line 8␤       V...
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10:57 moritz_ that's probably because it didn't produce any output...
10:58 moritz_ so evalbot wrapped it in ( do { ... }).perl.priint
10:59 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { ... }
10:59 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«unimplemented:  at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 108␤   AST::Helpers::XXX() called at src/VAST/term.pm line 48␤   VAST::term::emit_m0ld('VAS​T::term=HASH(0x91fbdc0)') called at src/VAST/noun.pm line 9␤    VAST::noun::emit_m0ld('VAS​T::noun=HASH(0xd1400b0)') called at src/AST/Helpers.pm line
10:59 p6eval ..131...
11:00 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo {  };
11:00 moritz_ mildew: knowhow Foo { }; $*OUT.say("alive");
11:00 ruoso mildew?
11:01 moritz_ does mildew invoke gcc?
11:01 p6eval mildew: RESULT«unimplemented:  at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 108␤   AST::Helpers::XXX() called at src/VAST/noun.pm line 31␤   VAST::noun::emit_m0ld('VAS​T::noun=HASH(0xd1450f8)') called at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 131␤        AST::Helpers::EXPR('VAST::EXPR=HASH(0xd143028)') called at src/VAST/EXPR.pm
11:01 p6eval ..line 8␤       V...
11:01 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Could not find variable $*OUT in the lexical scope.␤»
11:01 moritz_ perl6: say "alive"
11:01 p6eval elf 24784, pugs, rakudo 35016: OUTPUT«alive␤»
11:01 ruoso it does...
11:01 ruoso it compiles the m0ld code to C, then compiles the C code and run it
11:02 moritz_ that explains why it's so freakin' slow
11:02 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { }; $OUT.print("Hello from mildew!");
11:02 ruoso moritz_, that and STD
11:02 ruoso std: knowhow Foo { }; $OUT.print("Hello from mildew!");
11:02 moritz_ and it also explains why there might be problems: p6eval doesn't have write privileges by default
11:02 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Hello from mildew!»
11:02 p6eval std 24784: OUTPUT«00:06 84m␤»
11:02 moritz_ I should just fuck security, and change that
11:02 ruoso it opens a tmpfile
11:03 moritz_ if it's in /tmp/, that's no problem
11:03 ruoso yes, it is a tmpfile
11:04 ruoso std: knowhow Foo { has $.bar}; Foo.bar = 1; $OUT.print(Foo.bar.FETCH);
11:04 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { has $.bar}; Foo.bar = 1; $OUT.print(Foo.bar.FETCH);
11:04 p6eval std 24784: OUTPUT«00:05 86m␤»
11:04 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«1»
11:04 ruoso STD takes forever to parse that...
11:05 ruoso btw... I'm aware that the code above wasn't supposed to work...
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11:06 ruoso but I'm still unsure on how to implement return without it beign "is ref"
11:06 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { has $.bar}; my $a = 1; Foo.bar := $a; my $a = 2; $OUT.print(Foo.bar.FETCH);
11:06 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«2»
11:14 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { has $.bar }; Foo.^dispatch('bar', (1,2,3));
11:14 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Can't call method "emit" without a package or object reference at src/AST.pm line 247.␤»
11:15 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { method bar { $OUT.print("Hello!") }; Foo.^dispatch('bar');
11:15 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Unable to parse knowhow definition␤Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at /tmp/m58i3kD7f1 line 1:␤------> [32mprint("Hello!") }; Foo.^dispatch('bar');[31m[0m␤    expecting whitespace␤»
11:15 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { method bar { $OUT.print("Hello!") } }; Foo.^dispatch('bar');
11:15 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Could not find method dispatch.␤»
11:16 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { method bar { $OUT.print("Hello!") } }; Foo.^!how.dispatch(Foo, 'bar');
11:16 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«reading empty register 16␤»
11:16 ruoso hm
11:16 ruoso ok
11:17 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { method bar { $OUT.print("Hello!") } }; Foo.^!how.dispatch(Foo, 'bar', 1);
11:17 p6eval mildew: RESULT«unimplemented:  at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 108␤   AST::Helpers::XXX() called at src/VAST/noun.pm line 31␤   VAST::noun::emit_m0ld('VAS​T::noun=HASH(0xd145310)') called at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 131␤        AST::Helpers::EXPR('VAST::EXPR=HASH(0xd144520)') called at src/VAST/EXPR.pm
11:17 p6eval ..line 8␤       V...
11:17 ruoso hmpf
11:17 ruoso mildew: knowhow Foo { method bar { $OUT.print("Hello!") } }; Foo.^!how.dispatch(Foo, "bar", 1);
11:18 p6eval mildew: RESULT«unimplemented:  at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 108␤   AST::Helpers::XXX() called at src/VAST/noun.pm line 31␤   VAST::noun::emit_m0ld('VAS​T::noun=HASH(0xd145310)') called at src/AST/Helpers.pm line 131␤        AST::Helpers::EXPR('VAST::EXPR=HASH(0xd144520)') called at src/VAST/EXPR.pm
11:18 p6eval ..line 8␤       V...
11:18 ruoso meh...
11:19 moritz_ rakudo now passes 6170 tests on my machine ;)
11:21 masak I thought we might have passed 6k after that last flood of new tests ;)
11:25 masak TimToady: what do you think about providing default format strings to .fmt() ? That way, it can be called without any arguments at all sometimes.
11:25 masak rakudo: say [1,2,3].fmt('%s')
11:25 p6eval rakudo 35017: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
11:25 Matt-W moritz_: woooo!
11:25 masak rakudo: say [1,2,3].fmt()
11:25 p6eval rakudo 35017: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 4 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;fmt' pc 4155 (src/classes/List.pir:322)␤»
11:25 avar how many tests does mildew pass?
11:26 moritz_ masak: it doesn't make sense to call .fmt explicitly (saying "I want it in a particular format") without specifying a format
11:26 moritz_ masak: then you'd just stringify it
11:26 masak hm.
11:26 masak true.
11:27 moritz_ use.perl.org-- # down
11:27 masak rakudo: say ~[1,2,3]
11:27 p6eval rakudo 35017: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
11:27 masak rakudo: say ~{1 => 2, 3 => 4}
11:27 p6eval rakudo 35017: OUTPUT«1   2␤3      4␤␤»
11:28 masak rakudo: say {1 => 2, 3 => 4}.fmt("%s\t%s")
11:28 p6eval rakudo 35017: OUTPUT«1   2␤3      4␤»
11:28 masak oy! what with the extra newline in the stringification case?
11:28 * masak submits rakudobug
11:29 moritz_ where is the bug?
11:29 masak moritz_: it might be considered a bug that the last two results differ.
11:31 moritz_ so what does "%s\t%s" mean on hash?
11:31 masak moritz_: key, tab char, value
11:31 moritz_ masak: and how should they the separated?
11:32 masak by newlines, that's the default.
11:32 masak but the operative word is 'separated'
11:32 masak there shouldn't be a final newline
11:32 masak (apart from the one that 'say' outputs)
11:35 masak moritz_: re use.prgl.org down: aye, fail. however, RT is fast today. :)
11:35 moritz_ .oO( <use.perl.org rt parrot-svn>.pick(2) )
11:36 masak some kind of cosmic law, aye.
11:37 masak is there someone we should share our righteous ire with about use.perl.org, btw? someone who holds the keys to the webapp.
11:38 moritz_ I don't know who runs it
11:40 moritz_ I have another blog post coming, "Perl 6 Tidings 2009-01", but the server is very slow atm, it might take another 30min until the post shows up
11:40 masak moritz_++
11:40 moritz_ (actually it's perl6.vim that's slow - I'm re-generating some pages that use Text::VimColor + perl6.vim for hilighting)
11:41 masak ooh, gotta try that.
11:41 moritz_ and as soon as I started to write about its slowness, it's finished ;-)
11:41 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/​perl-6/tidings-2009-01.html
11:42 masak what's the state of Perl 6 syntax highlighting for Emacs?
11:43 moritz_ it's probably "whatever the file in util/ looks like"
11:43 moritz_ aka cperl-mode.el
11:44 Matt-W perl6.vim is very very slow :(
11:44 Matt-W It's a shame
11:45 moritz_ hinrik improved it very much, but used so many look-arounds in the regexes that it became abyssimal slow
11:45 Matt-W Does anybody know if it's because of fundamental things about Perl 6 and vim's language, or can it be overcome with a brain-meltingly clever rework?
11:46 moritz_ it probably needs some re-thinking
11:46 moritz_ Perl 6 needs predictive parsing; you can't emulate that with lookarounds
11:49 masak moritz_: typo in tidings: s/my last updated/my laste update/
11:50 masak uh, but 'last', not 'laste', of course.
11:51 * masak is mentioned twice! o/
11:51 moritz_ thanks, fixed
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11:53 literal Matt-W: it's very slow because of predictive parsing and some dynamic things like Q//, for example, Q allows a lot of adverbs to come after it, in any order, which can affect the highlighting. Handling that with regexes is very hard/slow
11:53 literal perl6.vim currently only pays attention to the first adverb, and it still needs a lot of regexes to do it
11:54 Matt-W so
11:54 Matt-W ouch
11:55 literal Perl 6 is exactly the kind of language that vim's highlighting was not designed for :P
11:55 Matt-W clearly the solution is to get vim to use perl 6 as a scripting system for syntax highlighting :P
11:55 literal you'd need to patch vim for that
11:56 Matt-W yeah I didn't say it'd be easy
11:56 masak it's not impossible either.
11:57 Matt-W Nice posts on planet perl 6 lately by the way. It's all very encouraging. I need to polish off what I've been working on and blog about it I think
11:58 literal Matt-W: Padre (http://padre.perlide.org/) uses STD.pm for highlighting, which is more accurate and (I think) faster. You might want to try it
11:58 Matt-W it's my list of things to do
11:58 Matt-W err
11:58 Matt-W it's ON my list
11:58 Matt-W the list obviously has other things on it
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11:59 masak I had the idea yesterday to write a blogging system that wraps use.perl.org to make it useable.
11:59 Matt-W in Perl 6?
11:59 masak aye.
11:59 Matt-W Excellent
11:59 masak Grammars FTW.
11:59 Matt-W I still haven't got my grammar thing working
11:59 Matt-W need to poke that again
12:00 Matt-W but first, some lunch
12:00 masak Matt-W: do that. they do work very well. pmichaud++
12:00 Matt-W yeah I think I'm just misunderstanding some concepts maybe
12:00 Matt-W I need to sit down and read the appropriate synopsis very carefully
12:00 masak Matt-W: S05.
12:00 Matt-W and then once I've got it working, write something about it
12:00 masak aye, lunch. that's a good idea.
12:01 masak Matt-W: sounds excellent.
12:01 Matt-W because there cannot be too much information about Perl 6's awesomeness out there
12:01 Matt-W since a lot of people think it's vapourware still
12:01 masak Matt-W: where do they get that idea?
12:01 Matt-W I may not be able to understand bits of the compiler that I want to improve, but I can do advocacy :)
12:01 Matt-W masak: because they're not paying attention, I suspect
12:02 masak Matt-W: this whole vapourware discussion has made me more wary about saying things about projects that I don't pay attention to.
12:02 Matt-W I've learned to say 'I think' and 'I believe' and 'I'm not sure' a lot more
12:03 masak that helps a little, but not very much.
12:03 masak better to say "I don't know" when appropriate.
12:03 Matt-W yes
12:03 Matt-W I say that a lot too
12:03 Matt-W unless I'm talking about java, in which case it's 'I don't like' :)
12:04 Matt-W anyway
12:04 Matt-W lunch &
12:04 * masak likes Java
12:04 masak it's not good for everything, mind you. but all in all it's a quite pleasant language.
12:05 Matt-W I might hate it less if it wasn't for the rule-breaking around String
12:05 masak heh :)
12:05 Matt-W why does String get overloaded operators but nobody else can have them?
12:05 masak yah, unfair. :)
12:05 Matt-W I'm of the C++ school of thought, where you make your user-defined types look like builtin ones
12:05 masak you should use a JVM scripting language, that'll soothe you.
12:05 Matt-W like Perl 6 does :)
12:05 Matt-W I wish
12:05 Matt-W I only do Java at work
12:06 Matt-W where it's Java
12:06 Matt-W no Groovy or anything like that :(
12:06 masak too bad.
12:06 Matt-W yeah and until recently it was java 1.1
12:06 Matt-W too terrible to contemplate
12:06 Matt-W really really really & now
12:07 masak :)
12:07 masak I won't tempt you with more replies.
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12:09 * ruoso later &
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14:18 mbaro would it be right to call perl just a scripting language?
14:18 mbaro or a programming language?
14:18 PerlJam sure, whatever.
14:19 mbaro just semantics?
14:19 masak mbaro: aye.
14:19 masak different people mean different things by 'scripting'.
14:19 PerlJam There's no clear concensus on what a "scripting language" is.
14:19 avar PerlJam: A language you write scripts in
14:19 Matt-W Some people use 'scripting' to talk about anything that doesn't have a separate compilation step
14:19 Matt-W avar: sure, but what's a script?
14:19 avar :)
14:20 PerlJam Some use is as a derogatory term, others use it simply as descriptive.
14:20 masak mbaro: as long as you think that scripting is cool, feel free to call Perl a scripting language. :)
14:20 [particle] perl 6 *can* have a separate compilation step
14:20 [particle] depends on the implementation
14:20 masak 'cept for eval.
14:20 mbaro masak yeah
14:20 mberends 'There Is More Than One Way To Define It' - TIMTOWTDI
14:20 Matt-W well, you'd still have to carry the compiler around
14:20 PerlJam avar: Oh ... so actors can read and understand scripting languages quite well then  :)
14:20 mbaro but perl6 is not quite scripting anymore
14:21 mbaro more programmaable
14:21 masak mbaro: "programmable"? :)
14:21 [particle] is javascript "just a scripting language"? i use it (rhino) to write command-line utilities.
14:21 Matt-W Perl 6 definitely goes more towards the unambiguous area of a programming language
14:21 PerlJam "more programmable" is equally meaningless or vague as "scripting"
14:21 Matt-W But I'm sure people will still use it as a scripting sort of tool, gluing other things together
14:22 Matt-W While other people will still moan about line noise
14:23 mbaro also perl scraped the topaz project way back.
14:23 mbaro didn't they?
14:23 literal manipulexity and whipuptitude!
14:23 PerlJam like 10 years ago.
14:23 masak it's OO noise now, which is kinda cool.
14:23 Matt-W Perl 6 does look a lot cleaner
14:23 masak mbaro: topaz is a long time ago. think Rakudo nowadays.
14:24 PerlJam "scripting" in the common vernacular is more an attribute of an implementation rather than a language (at least that's how people use it)
14:24 Matt-W not having brackets around if conditions is quite liberating, and the for @list -> $thing syntax is really nice
14:24 mbaro ah
14:24 masak Matt-W: that's because you haven't seen a lot of Perl 6 golf, I wager :P
14:24 Matt-W masak: I'm thinking mostly of the Perl 6 I've written - I'm not interested in the edge cases where people are deliberately pushing things
14:24 PerlJam I mean, I wrote a C interpreter a long time ago that doesn't have the separate compilation step.  Does that mean C is a "scripting language"?
14:24 mbaro masak: rakudo?
14:24 Matt-W Because that's not a typical pattern
14:24 * mbaro looks it up
14:24 masak mbaro: ...which isn't C++, btw, but instead a whole set of tools on top of Pattor, which is written in C.
14:25 masak Matt-W: ack.
14:25 masak [particle]: how soon will I be able to send flags to my Perl 6 programs?
14:25 mbaro and you're right perl 6 yes it is in fact whole oo addition in Perl is that way in my personal view.
14:26 masak mbaro: that did not parse.
14:26 masak but sure, yes.
14:26 [particle] masak: hopefully before parrot 1.0
14:26 masak [particle]: oki, nice.
14:26 masak [particle]: thinking of faking it in Druid for the time being.
14:26 mbaro its got a lot of oo now is what i meant
14:26 masak mbaro: yes, we drenched it in OO :)
14:27 [particle] druid?
14:27 Matt-W roles are nice
14:27 masak [particle]: http://github.com/masak/druid/
14:27 mbaro "drenched"
14:27 mbaro heh
14:27 masak Perl 6 has more OO than OO itself!
14:27 Matt-W hmm
14:27 Matt-W no it doesn't
14:28 masak it doesn't?
14:28 Matt-W well you can still say close($filehandle);
14:28 masak Matt-W: that's just syntactic sugar, honey.
14:29 Matt-W sort of the diet version
14:29 Matt-W since $filehandle.close; is shorter :)
14:29 masak .oO( "cancer of the semicolon" joke )
14:30 Matt-W yes! Let's get rid of semicolons! We'll use newlines and | as statement separators
14:30 rakudo_svn r35037 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 279 files, 6170 passing, 0 failing
14:30 masak Matt-W: write a pragma. :)
14:31 Matt-W no if I did that I'd replace all the $ with £ and call it "use British;"
14:31 masak Matt-W: I'd use that. :)
14:31 masak or, more likely, an Euro version.
14:31 Matt-W they'd be almost identical
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14:58 masak Perl 6 has a Set class, right?
14:58 [particle] yes
14:58 masak buubot: spack Set
14:58 buubot masak: S02-bits.pod:12 S03-operators.pod:17 S12-objects.pod:1 S17-concurrency.pod:1 S19-commandline.pod:1 S29-functions.pod:1
14:58 PerlJam spack?
14:58 masak how do I create a Set object? what are the names of the common operators?
14:59 literal synopsis pod ack (ack is a replacement for grep)
14:59 masak PerlJam: 'spack', or 'spec-ack', acks the spec.
14:59 literal or that
14:59 PerlJam ah
14:59 [particle] spack seems short for spec-ack
14:59 PerlJam I was trying to acronym the "sp" part for some reason.
15:00 PerlJam (but I guess "syn pod" is good enough for that too)
15:00 masak sure, whatever makes you happy. :)
15:01 masak back to the question. say I want the intersection between two sets. how do I write it in Perl 6?
15:01 masak do I have to import a module to do intersections?
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15:10 mberends eric256, on perl6-examples is it ok if I add a /lib directory for modules and a /bin for scripts, both to contain utilities?
15:12 masak perl6: Set.new
15:13 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Set"␤    at /tmp/Y9pqcOpKNT line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
15:13 p6eval ..rakudo 35038: RESULT«undef»
15:13 p6eval ..elf 24784: RESULT«Set.new(!!!)␤»
15:16 PerlJam rakudo:  my $a = Set.new; say $a;  my $b = SomeRandomThing.new;  say $b;
15:16 p6eval rakudo 35041: RESULT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤1»
15:16 masak aye.
15:17 masak no such thing as Set in Rakudo yet.
15:17 masak and there are no hints in the Synopses on how to construct a Set object, or what methods/operators are defined on them.
15:18 PerlJam yeah.  I didn't realize it was so forgiving about parsing and executing Foo.new where Foo hasn't been previously declared.
15:18 masak so, uncharted terrotory.
15:18 masak PerlJam: feels a bit dangerous, aye.
15:19 Matt-W I would have thought Rakudo should complain if you try and make an object from a class it doesn't know...
15:19 PerlJam there was some talk about Set on p6l language a while back, but that's all I remember about it.  Maybe there's some good proto-spec info in the p6l archives.
15:19 PerlJam Matt-W: me too
15:19 Matt-W Wonder how hard it would be to fix that
15:19 masak I'll go have a look.
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15:21 eric256 mberends: definitly
15:22 mberends thanks, will get a round tuit in about 30 mins
15:23 masak by the time user-defined operators are implemented in Rakudo, someone could propose a decent Set syntax/semantics just by writing a Set.pm module
15:23 Matt-W That might be the way to go about it actually
15:23 Matt-W It's not like Set needs to be core compiler code is it - it's just a core library module I guess
15:24 PerlJam Matt-W: I think that's what ended the Set talk on p6l last time :)
15:24 masak Matt-W: sure. except for the parts of Set that participate in smartmatching.
15:25 PerlJam though I think someone was arguing that Set needs to be first-class citizenry because of their relation to databases
15:25 eric256 masak: i've been kidna surprised thats not more of how perl6 has been approached. get a base going then write the rest qas perl6 modules that eventualy get compiled into the core language....dunno probably some downside to that speed wise though
15:25 * eric256 spills hot cocoa down the front of hisself
15:25 masak eric256: Hofstadter's Law.
15:26 masak that's the whole secret, I think.
15:26 PerlJam eric256: that *is* how it's being approached actually.  :-)
15:26 Matt-W masak: I would hope that smartmatching can be handled for additional types in libraries as and when... Set shouldn't have to do special things for it
15:26 masak Matt-W: sure, sure. it's just that it's specced already :)
15:27 masak that's why 'spack Set' turned up so many hits on S03.
15:29 Matt-W yeah, but if Set can be a standard module rather than a bit of core language, and do smartmatching and all the other clever things we like, it bodes very well for the content of future CPAN :)
15:29 masak I think this might be the p6l thread in question: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.​perl6.language/2007/02/msg27171.html
15:30 PerlJam could be
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15:31 eric256 Tene++
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15:32 eric256 http://pleasedieinafire.net/cgi-bin/graphviz thats pretty cool.... i wonder if the wiki has something that could handle that. that would be perfect
15:33 masak no, that's not the right thread. this is more recent, however, and asks how to write literals for Set, among other Perl 6 types: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.​perl6.language/2008/12/msg30028.html
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15:34 pmichaud ...can I ask for a moratorium on rakudobugs involving sub/method parameters?
15:34 pmichaud (an informal one, at least)
15:34 ejs joined #perl6
15:34 masak pmichaud: hokay.
15:34 pmichaud we know that parameters don't work in trunk, and it's just giving a lot more to clean up.
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15:35 Matt-W They don't? I hadn't noticed...
15:35 pmichaud they work *if* you're only using scalars.
15:35 Matt-W But I shall remember not to file a bug if I do
15:35 Matt-W Aaaah
15:35 Matt-W That makes sense then
15:36 pmichaud but things like 'is rw' and 'is copy' and passing scalar arguments to array parameters are all known to have issues.
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15:36 pmichaud (they're largely fixed in the rvar branch, but it's still going to be a day or so at least before I can finish it and merge to trunk)
15:36 Matt-W I'm sure I've passed an ordinary array without any trouble, but I wasn't doing anything particularly fancy
15:43 masak pmichaud: re a temporary ".perl" method: the only thing I can think of is a string of some sort. though that will surely disappoint anyone who tries to feed the result through an eval. on the gripping hand, I can't think of anything that won't.
15:44 jnthn masak: What about a TheClass.new(...) which sets up attributes to their current values?
15:45 masak jnthn: you know, that's actually not half bad. :)
15:45 masak (why didn't I think of that?)
15:47 masak it will work as long as the 'new' method isn't custom-made.
15:47 masak which is goodenuf in most cases.
15:48 PerlJam anyone defining their own new is probably doing something wrong anyway  :)
15:49 masak PerlJam: I'm glad you put that smiley there at the end.
15:49 eric256 if they make their own new they should make there own .perl too ;)
15:49 jnthn masak: It'll fall apart fro anonymous classes too.
15:49 masak oh, right. yes.
15:52 eric256 is there a way in svn to tell which files in a directory you've updated?
15:52 Matt-W svn status
15:52 Matt-W or do you mean updated in the repo
15:53 eric256 yea i realized i phrased that wrong. lol. i mean which files i've updated ever. i tried svn log | grep eric256
15:53 Matt-W ah
15:53 eric256 but i'm not sure its giving me the full log
15:53 Matt-W trickier
15:53 masak eric256: svn log -v
15:53 PerlJam eric256: if you "svn up" prior to "svn log", it should give you the full log.
15:54 eric256 thanks that worked.
15:54 eric256 ohh but it only gives me revision numbers not which files. hmph ;)
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15:55 masak eric256: svn log -v
15:55 PerlJam -v will tell you which files
15:55 PerlJam (your grep will ignore those lines however)
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15:56 eric256 yea i'm dumping it into a text file and scanning. looking for anything i did in pugs examples that would be good candidates to move ;)
15:56 eric256 that worked perfect. thanks
15:58 masak eric256: svn log | perl -ne 'print if /\| eric256 \|/ ... /----/'
15:58 masak oh, and '-v' on the 'svn log', too.
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16:12 pugs_svn r24785 | eric256++ | Updating [examples/rules/basic.pl] towards a working condition
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16:20 [particle] can you guarantee TheClass will have a new method that is the constructor?
16:20 [particle] masak?
16:21 masak [particle]: no. you can't.
16:21 [particle] better to inspect the class and ask it
16:21 [particle] (if that's possible)
16:21 masak [particle]: note the words "temporary .perl" :)
16:21 jnthn [particle]: It'd inherit a new from Object, no?
16:22 jnthn So I think it's always have one - it's just what it'd do...
16:22 masak right.
16:23 [particle] ok, then, but i'm not sure how you stop it from becoming permanent :)
16:24 eric256 hmmm looking at my own code from 3 years ago is like looking at a strangers code...odd ;)
16:25 PerlJam eric256: It's always that way.
16:25 PerlJam eric256: that's why you should strive to be kind to the future strangers who may be looking at your code :)
16:26 masak not only for that reason.
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16:29 eric256 Matches don't have .perl yet right?
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16:45 eric256 i took a first pass at adding to the glossary.. can someone check and make sure i didn't do anything stupid and suggest entries for some of the ones i left blank
16:45 eric256 http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?a​ction=revision_compare&amp;page_name=glossary_o​f_perl_6_terms_and_jargon&amp;mode=source&amp;B​utton=Compare+Revisions&amp;new_revision_id=200​90106164432&amp;old_revision_id=20080212211028
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17:12 azawawi hi *
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17:14 azawawi moritz_: ping
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17:22 mberends perl6 -e'say @*ARGS;' a b c # rakudo r35051 says nothing, should say abc
17:23 mberends can anyone verify this?
17:23 azawawi i think those special variables are still not implemented last time i checked
17:24 azawawi rakudo: say $*OS;
17:24 p6eval rakudo 35051: OUTPUT«linux␤»
17:24 azawawi rakudo: say $?OS;
17:24 p6eval rakudo 35051: OUTPUT«Lexical '$?OS' not found␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 46 (EVAL_12:36)␤»
17:24 azawawi rakudo: say @ARGV;
17:24 p6eval rakudo 35051: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '@ARGV'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:102)␤»
17:24 PerlJam azawawi: it's not ARGV anymore
17:25 azawawi oh ;-)
17:25 azawawi hi PerlJam
17:25 mberends rakudo: say @*ARGS
17:25 p6eval rakudo 35051: OUTPUT«␤»
17:27 mberends rakudo: say %*VM<config>
17:27 p6eval rakudo 35051: OUTPUT«mandir      /usr/local/mani_sysin   i_unistd        defineHAS_READLINE      1-Wchar-subscripts      1i_sysioctl     defineosname    linux-Wwrite-strings    1jitosname      LINUXPATCH      2jit_i386       fcomipi_sysndir i_systime       definebigendian 0oldincludedir
17:27 p6eval ../usr/includeinclude_dir /usr/local/includei_stddef      defineVERSION   0.8....
17:29 mberends azawawi, @*ARGS was available a few weeks ago, worked for me quite well
17:29 azawawi then great ;-)
17:29 azawawi i havent used rakudo for a while
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17:30 azawawi can rakudo parse STD.pm?
17:30 PerlJam azawawi: not quite yet AFAIK
17:31 PerlJam @*ARGS doesn't seem to work right from within -e scripts.
17:31 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
17:31 PerlJam It works find in stand alone programs though
17:32 mberends thanks, that fits the symptoms. it used to work in -e, so something broke
17:33 ruoso I wonder if commit messages on spec changes could include the commit message in the subject line...
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17:36 GitHub62 perl6-examples: 3mberends master0 SHA1-9adc812
17:36 GitHub62 added /bin and /lib, prove script and Test::Harness
17:36 GitHub62 http://is.gd/eHQe
17:36 GitHub62 perl6-examples: 3mberends master0 SHA1-a6434cd
17:36 GitHub62 added documentation to prove and Test::Harness
17:36 GitHub62 http://is.gd/eHQi
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17:38 ruoso it would also be nice if GitHub message was shorter
17:39 mberends yes, sorry about that
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17:48 eric256 ruoso: definitly ;)
17:49 eric256 github can send the message to a URL, so i could make some sort of page that recieved the message and then posted a message to irc.. or something
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17:50 ruoso moritz_, I've just realized we would need to return something if the capture is empty (no invocant and no positional arguments)
17:50 ruoso and there's also
17:50 ruoso return a => 1
17:52 ruoso perl6: sub foo { return a => 1 }; my $a = foo(); say $a.perl;
17:52 p6eval elf 24785: OUTPUT«Pair.new(!!!)␤»
17:52 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«\\("a", 1)␤»
17:52 p6eval ..rakudo 35054: OUTPUT«undef␤»
17:54 ruoso should it be Pair or Hash?
17:54 ruoso perl6: sub foo { return a => 1, b => 2 }; my $a = foo(); say $a.perl;
17:54 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«\\(\("a", 1), \("b", 2))␤»
17:54 p6eval ..elf 24785: OUTPUT«Pair.new(!!!)␤»
17:54 p6eval ..rakudo 35054: OUTPUT«undef␤»
17:54 ruoso this should be a hash, for sure...
17:58 ruoso perl6: sub foo { return 1, 2, 3, a => 1, b => 2 }; my $a = foo(); say $a.perl;
17:58 p6eval elf 24785: OUTPUT«Pair.new(!!!)␤»
17:58 p6eval ..rakudo 35054: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (7) - at most 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'return' pc 14596 (src/builtins/control.pir:29)␤»
17:58 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«\\(1, 2, 3, \("a", 1), \("b", 2))␤»
18:00 ruoso I think we need a dual container
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18:03 GitHub63 perl6-examples: 3mberends master0 SHA1-57d23fe
18:03 GitHub63 added HTTP_Daemon.pm to /lib, a very simple web server
18:03 GitHub63 http://is.gd/eHY1
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18:04 mberends sorry about the noise again
18:04 ruoso mberends, not a problem...
18:04 ruoso it would just be nicer if it was shorter... but it's not really a burden
18:06 mberends yes, a one liner would be ideal
18:10 eric256 could the svn bot be setup to monitor a twitter feed? i could have it send commit messages to twitter and the svn bot could pick them up
18:10 eric256 i'd even be happy to update the svnbot if the source is accessible
18:12 eric256 is it svnbot in rakudo/pugs/examples/network?
18:12 eric256 oh never mind
18:12 eric256 thats a perl6 one
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18:19 eric256 i set it up at https://twitter.com/perl6examples
18:23 mberends cool. does that mean #perl6 will not get any notification at all?
18:24 eric256 no i left perl6 on till i can contact whoever runs that bot ;)
18:24 eric256 shouldn't be too hard to get it to catch twitter updates along with svn updates. dunno
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18:25 eric256 http://github.com/guides/post-receive-hooks it can send JSON data to a cgi app
18:33 * ruoso later &
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18:48 * eric256 attemts to setup CPAN on feather to install in his own directory...hmm
18:48 [particle] eric: minicpan should do, i'd imagine
18:49 [particle] oh, nm
18:49 [particle] i misparsed that
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20:03 * ruoso fears the path things are taking in the Capture discussion...
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20:22 eric256 where is this capture discussion happening?
20:22 moritz_ eric256: on p6l
20:22 eric256 ahh
20:22 eric256 hey moritz_ do you run the bots?
20:23 moritz_ eric256: most of them
20:24 ruoso eric256, "returning one or several values..." is the subject of the thread
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20:26 PerlJam ruoso: you fear, yet you contribute to the fear of others  :)
20:26 ruoso heh
20:26 ruoso but I think we're pretty much preparing the capture spec
20:27 PerlJam maybe
20:27 PerlJam I'm waiting for one of the laterl-thinking folks to wake up and propose something that's strange and beautiful and right.
20:27 PerlJam s/laterl/lateral/
20:29 ruoso although there are no many possibilities
20:29 * ruoso .oO(the last sentence doesn't look right)
20:45 eric256 captures sound very scary ;)
20:45 PerlJam they aren't really.
20:45 PerlJam Interactions with them are hard to pin down though
20:46 eric256 (1,2,3, a=>4, b=>5), not being a list of three Ints and two Pairs is odd. though i can see the desire to want to access the pairs by name
20:46 eric256 but then what would something like: return (1,2,3,a=>4,a=>5); do?
20:47 moritz_ eric256: a Capture is a collection of things that can be passed to subroutine or method
20:48 ruoso eric256, return (1,2,3,a=>4,b=>5) contains a single positional argument
20:48 PerlJam eric256: wait, that *is* a list of 3 Ints and two Pairs  (You haven't made it a Capture yet)
20:48 ruoso return(1,2,3,a=>4,b=>5) is something else
20:48 ruoso as well as
20:48 ruoso return 1,2,3,a=>4,b=>5
20:50 ruoso you can also use
20:50 |jedai| joined #perl6
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20:50 ruoso (1,2,3,(a=>4),(b=>5))
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20:50 ruoso to make it a list of three ints and 2 pairs
20:51 * ruoso later &
20:52 eric256 like i said, they sound scary ;)
20:52 dwhipp A more pedantic description of a Capture might be that it's the input to a binding operation; invocation of subs/methods are two examples of this, but so is ":=". Not sure about "="
20:54 moritz_ rakudo: say NaN ~~ NaN
20:54 p6eval rakudo 35079: OUTPUT«0␤»
20:54 pugs_svn r24786 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for NaN ~~ NaN
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20:54 PerlJam eric256: a Capture is just a container that can simultaneously hold items of different types.   This is very similar to typeglobs in perl 5; thus you have $a, @a, and %a as separate distinct things.
20:55 eric256 but no clear way to define which parts of your capture are which of those values
20:55 PerlJam eric256: Captures just make that a bit more explicit and  they're objects in their own right that you can pass around and do various things with.
20:55 eric256 why not return Scalar=>5, Array=>(1..10), Hash=>( a=>1, b=>2); ?
20:55 PerlJam eric256: have you read the discussion on p6l?
20:56 eric256 the most recent one yes
20:56 dwhipp is "Capture" a role or a class?
20:57 PerlJam I think of it as a class.
20:57 PerlJam and the counterpart to Signature.
20:57 PerlJam and the basis for Match objects
20:57 eric256 PerlJam: it seems to highlight exactly how confusing the return portion is. it sounds like a case where explicitly defining it is more DWIM than counting on magic
20:58 eric256 but thats a pretty uneducated 2cents
21:00 dwhipp I'm thinking that this really shouldn't be a discussion of the semantics of "return" statements, but of the semantics of assignment.
21:00 * eric256 goes to read the syn and edumacate hisself
21:01 eric256 buubot: spack capture
21:01 buubot eric256: S02-bits.pod:6 S03-operators.pod:17 S04-control.pod:7 S05-regex.pod:80 S06-routines.pod:15 S07-iterators.pod:1 S09-data.pod:1 S12-objects.pod:2 S13-overloading.pod:2 S29-functions.pod:3
21:01 PerlJam dwhipp: in what little I've thought about it, I tend to agree.
21:04 dwhipp @a = 1,2,3, b=>4  Vs \( @a, %b ) = 1,2,3, b=>4   --- the backslash is in the wrong place Vs current spec, though
21:04 lambdabot Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask . ? @ v
21:06 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has @.a; method b { @.a = <1 2 3> }; }; A.new.b; say "alive";
21:06 p6eval rakudo 35079: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 14950 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
21:08 eric256 am i missing the clear definition of captures in the syns? a lot of little bits, but it feels like i'm missing the beg section on captures
21:09 dwhipp http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs​/docs/Perl6/FAQ/Capture.pod
21:09 PerlJam eric256: which have you read?
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21:14 pugs_svn r24787 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for writing to array and hash attributes
21:19 pugs_svn r24788 | moritz++ | [t/spec] update a fudge message
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21:42 Matt-W moritz_: much ++ for adding that test, thanks
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22:12 eric256 there we go, one liner...now to figure out the (notice) thingy lol
22:15 perl6examples joined #perl6
22:16 perl6examples [perl6-examples] http://is.gd/eJ7i Eric Hodges - Modify the text some
22:16 perl6examples [perl6-examples] http://is.gd/eJ7f Eric Hodges - Privmsg instead of notice
22:16 perl6examples [perl6-examples] http://is.gd/eJ7i Eric Hodges - Modify the text some
22:17 eric256 ohh dear
22:17 mberends wassup eric256?
22:17 eric256 it sent the same tweet twice ;) lol
22:18 eric256 could call it tweetbot lol
22:18 mberends oh, a re-tweeter
22:19 eric256 yep, could pull in the perl6 or rakudo tweets as well...dunno, i'm not big on twitter but this is a handy way for github and my bot to converse ;)
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22:20 Su-Shee Hi.
22:23 perl6examples Tweet!
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22:25 perl6examples [perl6-examples] http://is.gd/eJ9K Eric Hodges - Moved add_collaborator into bin folder
22:26 mberends your tweetbot is well behaved now
22:28 eric256 hurrah
22:28 eric256 any other good perl6 twitterers? lol
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22:29 spx2 I have a server and it has a dynamic ip connection to the internet,it's changing IP every time it connects,how do I make a dns for it in these conditions ?
22:32 [particle] http://dyndns.org/
22:34 Su-Shee would someone mind explaining to me how perl6 is doing @INC? I have parrot stuff in one hand, perl 6 build from parrot on the other and I just don't get it.
22:35 pmichaud by default @INC is just '.'
22:35 pmichaud you can add more directories to that list, in which case Rakudo will search those additional directories for any modules you might 'use'
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22:35 pmichaud that's about it.
22:37 Su-Shee oh, _that_ difficult... ;) ok.
22:38 Su-Shee if I want to use parrots SQLite3, I don't have to do some additional magic to load the PIR files behind the .pm files, just adding the directory to @INC?
22:39 * eric256 hacks together a DNS protocol using Twitter, lmao
22:43 mberends pmichaud, do you know of an RT concerning perl6 -e not populating @*ARGS from the command line? searching rt.perl.org draws a blank.
22:45 pmichaud mberends: I don't know of one, no.
22:45 pmichaud that sounds like a bug.
22:46 pmichaud Su-Shee: I don't know how SQLite3 is set up.  However, 'use' looks for a .pbc/.pir before loading the .pm.
22:46 |jedai| joined #perl6
22:47 Su-Shee pmichaud: I've just tried and it's use-ed without complaining. seem to work
22:47 Su-Shee seems.
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23:05 eric256 couldn't http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38212 that be written as a grammar?
23:06 eric256 a grammar to find all lines after a certain line and then only capture those lines that meet a certain pattern?
23:06 eric256 grammars are smarter than me, especialy when they don't have a .perl yet ;)
23:07 eric256 well Matches i guess...
23:09 PerlJam yes, that could have been grammarized.
23:14 eric256 could you help me out? i was trying to smart small with a rule that would match either rule item { =item (.*)  or .* }; but i don't think thats right
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23:28 eric256 alright i seem to have it working. but getting the matched value is eluding me...hmm
23:31 mberends eric256, show your rule, maybe I can help
23:31 pasteling "eric256" at 72.1.122.62 pasted "S29 Functions parsing" (16 lines, 309B) at http://sial.org/pbot/34260
23:32 eric256 i've tried $match[0] $match.[0] $match<item_line> $match.<item_line>....it just keeps coming back undef
23:34 * mberends preparing to run the S29 script
23:40 mberends the pattern is multiline, but the data a single line. that can never match.
23:41 mberends there are two ways to go: all multiline, or all single line.
23:42 mberends I usually prefer single line, it's the Unix pipes and streams concept
23:43 mberends but then you have to remember state from previous lines to control what to match on subsequent lines
23:44 mberends a multiline solution would maintain a sliding window over a range of lines and pattern match over those concatenated. probably simpler in this case.
23:45 mberends eric256, do you want to do it or shall I do it in the morning?
23:49 Student joined #perl6
23:51 mberends sorry, looking closer I see that a single line pattern is all that is needed
23:57 pasteling "mberends" at 78.33.161.227 pasted "S29 items grammar solution for eric256" (17 lines, 341B) at http://sial.org/pbot/34261

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