Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-01-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:20 jnthn Limbic_Region: Yes, there are issues with NaN and Inf floating point numbers that cause a bunch to fail. :-(
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00:39 * jnthn -> sleep
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02:57 shinobi-cl hi all
02:58 shinobi-cl i want to know all u ppl opinion, if you care :)
02:58 shinobi-cl i have some old perl code to read some doom files...
02:58 shinobi-cl and im looking for a rather large project where to spend my time..
02:59 shinobi-cl so, the thing is... if i wanted to do a doom port in perl (i?ve seen even Delphi ports!)
02:59 shinobi-cl do u think is a good idea starting on perl6?
03:01 shinobi-cl i dont care for 3d rendering, in fact i like software rendenring much more
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03:01 shinobi-cl so 3d libraries are not an issue, timers are more an issue in fact (as old doom uses 35hz for timing)
03:07 shinobi-cl now tht perl5 has a decent and usable oop implementation i?m tempted to start it on perl5
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03:20 shinobi-cl lalala
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03:37 buu Haha
03:37 buu "now that perl5 has oop"
03:43 shinobi-cl well
03:43 shinobi-cl not NOW really
03:43 shinobi-cl by now i mean SINCE MOOSE
03:44 shinobi-cl that lib alone makes oop in perl an enjoyable thing
03:47 buu Wow.
03:47 shinobi-cl :/
03:48 shinobi-cl so, now a project like a computer game is feasible in perl5
03:49 shinobi-cl but... im still not decided if making something in perl5 would be a waste of time, being that p6 seems ?close? by now
03:54 shinobi-cl ahh fuck it, i?ll do it in perl6
03:54 shinobi-cl night all
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04:07 mdxi that was pretty awesome
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05:26 mberends masak: OH HAI
05:26 masak mberends: OH HAI
05:26 mberends U HAZ DO SVG?
05:27 masak IS DO IT NAO.
05:28 mberends U HAZ C MI SVG? http://autoexec.demon.nl:8888/svg/
05:28 masak O, I C!
05:29 masak mberends++
05:29 mberends SIZ SVG IS BIG & SMAL
05:29 masak YA -- IZ BIG & SMAL & SLICES
05:30 mberends SLICES = CROP R CLIP R SUMTIN
05:31 nek joined #perl6
05:31 masak IZ VRY GOOD. I CAN HAZ MORE CODING SVG NAO.
05:32 masak mberends++
05:33 mberends U C SVG TINY? IZ BETR 4 U & LIL SYS. http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/
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05:37 masak YA -- I CAN HAZ C.
05:37 mberends OK I GOAZ 2 WRK BAI
05:37 masak BAI!
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05:49 masak mtnviewmark: hi!
05:49 masak how's it going?
05:49 mtnviewmark good!
05:49 mtnviewmark I've made my way through most of STD.pm
05:50 mtnviewmark there are lots of discrepancies between STD.pm and Syn03
05:50 masak mtnviewmark: that's something we need to address.
05:50 mtnviewmark I'm making a list -- which do you think is considered more authoritative?
05:50 masak STD, but I also guess it depends.
05:51 mtnviewmark oh - really?  fie I was hoping the Synop
05:51 masak STD.pm is newer, in a sense.
05:51 masak it's what $larry has been working on lately.
05:51 mtnviewmark hmmm... okay, though some of the issues seem like clear STD.pm errors -- mostly associativity declarations
05:52 masak also, there's something to be said for an executable specification :)
05:52 masak IIRC, it passes the whole test suite... OTOH, that doesn't mean it's correct.
05:52 mtnviewmark if I assemble a list of differences - and posted it to the perl6-dev mailing list, would that be likely to get a response from $larry or others involved in adjudicating such differences?
05:53 mtnviewmark hmmm.... I wonder if there is really a postfix:<i> operator!
05:53 mtnviewmark I'm not even sure how you'd write such a thing!
05:53 masak moritz_: p6l.
05:53 masak sorry, mtnviewmark: p6l.
05:53 mtnviewmark p6l?
05:53 masak mtnviewmark: and I think you will get a response within a few days.
05:53 masak perl6-language.
05:54 masak and yes, there is a postfix:<i>
05:54 masak rakudo: say 4 + 5i
05:54 mtnviewmark ah - okay, I'll subscribe and send my findings when I've gotten through the end -- (currently at %conditional)
05:54 p6eval rakudo 35576: OUTPUT«4+5i␤»
05:54 mtnviewmark oy!
05:54 masak :)
05:54 masak clear omission from S03, yes.
05:54 masak rakudo: say (1 + 2i) * (4 - 5i)
05:54 mtnviewmark and one wonders how you apply it to a varaible, say $t
05:54 p6eval rakudo 35576: OUTPUT«14+3i␤»
05:55 masak mtnviewmark: you don't, I guess.
05:55 mtnviewmark std: my $t; ($t)i;
05:55 p6eval std 24912: OUTPUT«00:05 83m␤»
05:55 masak rakudo: my $t = 5; say ($t)i;
05:55 p6eval rakudo 35576: OUTPUT«0+5i␤»
05:55 masak huh! :)
05:55 mtnviewmark by the way - what is that supposed to mean? the output format from std: ???
05:56 masak mtnviewmark: I think it's the number of seconds. I don't know what 83m means.
05:57 TimToady 83 megabytes
05:58 masak ah.
05:58 TimToady rakudo: my $t = 5; say $t.i
05:58 p6eval rakudo 35576: OUTPUT«Method 'i' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 80 (EVAL_17:44)␤»
05:58 masak TimToady: should that work?
05:58 TimToady think so
05:58 * masak submits rakudobug
05:59 TimToady pugs: my $t = 5; say $t.i
05:59 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&i"␤    at /tmp/DFnrL3cinP line 1, column 16 - line 2, column 1␤»
05:59 TimToady hmm
06:00 TimToady rakudo: my $t = 5; say $t\i
06:00 masak well, it's only fair -- if [] and {} have dot forms, why not i?
06:00 p6eval rakudo 35576: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "\\i"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
06:00 TimToady rakudo: my $t = 5; say $t\ i
06:00 p6eval rakudo 35576: OUTPUT«0+5i␤»
06:00 masak heh!
06:00 masak I'll submit that $t\i one as well.
06:01 mtnviewmark just noticed that STD has .= forms at same precedence as =
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06:02 TimToady indeed, syntactically it's just an assignop
06:02 mtnviewmark okay, Syn03 has it with the other . ops, down at %methodcall
06:02 masak mtnviewmark: no, that's another .=
06:02 TimToady that means the postfix, not the infix
06:02 mtnviewmark oh - there are two?
06:03 masak :)
06:03 TimToady $x.=foo is parsed as postfix
06:03 TimToady $x .= foo is parsed as (weird) infix
06:03 mtnviewmark 'k - then that one is missing from Syn03
06:03 mtnviewmark (I think)
06:03 TimToady S03 isn't particularly complete
06:04 TimToady esp. the table is not intended to be exhaustive
06:04 mtnviewmark hmmm... well, so much for basing my updated chart on it.... ;-O
06:04 mtnviewmark no, I scoured the text...
06:04 mtnviewmark but now I'm reading STD.pm
06:04 TimToady as mentioned, STD is more recent thinking
06:04 TimToady S03 hasn't caught up in every respect
06:05 mtnviewmark is that true for associativity?  There are many discrepencies there
06:05 TimToady would have to see the individual cases
06:05 mtnviewmark Okay -
06:05 mtnviewmark %autoincrement isn't :assoc<left>
06:05 mtnviewmark %symbolic_unary isn't :assoc<left> or :assoc<right> as needed
06:05 mtnviewmark %concatenation is :assoc<left>, not list as in Syn03
06:05 mtnviewmark %named_unary isn't :assoc<left>
06:05 mtnviewmark %tight_and is :assoc<left>, not list as in Syn03
06:05 mtnviewmark (token infix:sym<^^> is hand set to list)
06:05 mtnviewmark %conditional is :assoc<right>, not left as in Syn03
06:05 mtnviewmark (heh!)
06:06 TimToady but while STD can parse all of t/, it doesn't necessarily do it right :)
06:07 TimToady well, default is left
06:07 mtnviewmark oh - I couldn't find that - is that just implicit in the code for EXPR?
06:07 TimToady and for some things it doesn't really matter if left or list
06:07 TimToady yes, EXPR
06:08 TimToady assuming I recall it correctly, it's been a while
06:08 mtnviewmark doesn't left or list kind of imply whether it is a chain of calls, or one call with many args (to some conceptual, underlying function?)
06:09 TimToady yes, but where the op would end up with the same semantics, list is just an optimization, like for concatenation
06:09 TimToady but it should probably be list in STD
06:09 TimToady (for that reason)
06:10 mtnviewmark hmmmm... I thought && being :assoc<list> was nice and clear, though I understand how it is the same as :assoc<left>
06:10 TimToady hmm, is conditional really left in S03?  that'd be an oopsie
06:10 mtnviewmark the chart currently has it as Infix, List
06:10 mtnviewmark yes - it is
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06:10 mtnviewmark er, infix, List was for && that is
06:11 TimToady understood
06:11 mtnviewmark did \ cease to be an operator?
06:11 mtnviewmark seems so
06:11 TimToady prefix:<\\> is kind of an operator
06:12 mtnviewmark and <== and friends seem to have become operators (they aren't in Syn03)
06:12 TimToady but it requires an absence of whitespace after it
06:12 TimToady go back and forth about feed ops, but it's easier to treat them as ops, I think
06:12 mtnviewmark okay, but the grammer in STD.pm doesn't seem to parse prefix:<\\> as an operator
06:13 TimToady and anyone who mixes foo ==> bar if $baz is just asking for it anyway
06:13 TimToady hmm
06:13 mtnviewmark at least not at the precedence level of prefix:<|>, prefix:<^> and prefix<=>
06:13 TimToady it's a <capterm> looks like
06:13 mtnviewmark yes - even though I was basing on Syn03, I put them on the chart anyway - they felt far too much like operators
06:14 mtnviewmark but, based on STD.pm today, I'll put them in the main area
06:14 TimToady anyway, STD is close to right
06:15 TimToady *closer
06:15 TimToady I'll try to glare at it all tomorrow and align it
06:15 mtnviewmark good - now I just have to plow my way through the twisty maze of meta-op parsing and dottyop parsing
06:15 TimToady mtnviewmark++
06:16 mtnviewmark I'll produce a list of differences as I found them and post to perl6-language
06:16 TimToady have the appropriate amount of fun :)
06:16 TimToady thanks
06:16 mtnviewmark I'm sure it'll drive me dotty....
06:16 * TimToady sniggers
06:17 TimToady I don't recall, did you treat metaops like actines/lathinides before?
06:17 TimToady *actinides
06:18 TimToady there's no way to draw a chart with them all nowadays, however
06:18 TimToady the metaops in STD aren't even generating all the ones there ought to be yet
06:19 masak Perl 6 operators have finally passed the barrier of tractability :)
06:20 TimToady @a X>>=:=<<X @b
06:20 lambdabot Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask . ? @ v
06:20 TimToady maybe I did at that
06:20 masak lambdabot++
06:20 masak lambdabot: you're much nicer than that purl girl.
06:21 TimToady hello masak, you fantastic person you!
06:21 masak haha
06:24 mtnviewmark No - i didn't treat them as auxiliary series - those were the no lost file text operators
06:24 mtnviewmark the only meta op back then (2004) was hyper, and it was it's own
06:25 mtnviewmark the new metas have a special place above the table now (and have crowns and royal sashes)
06:25 mtnviewmark (!)
06:25 mtnviewmark alas, the loss of the file operators meant my great joke of the "Filinis" at precendence 8-1/2 is gone
06:26 masak mtnviewmark: I realize that TimToady didn't get a copy of the new table. maybe one of us should send him one?
06:27 masak he does have some inside knowledge in these matters, after all.
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06:27 mtnviewmark well - you could send him the "Almost the Third Edition"... but I'm getting close to "Breath from the Third Edition"
06:28 mtnviewmark and now STD.pm is going to have me do some arranging.
06:28 masak :)
06:28 masak I'll let you decide.
06:28 mtnviewmark I could send it to him too.... though my message might get lost in his inbox
06:28 TimToady I'm pretty busy at work, so take your time
06:29 * mtnviewmark thought TimToady got to do this for work....
06:29 mtnviewmark :-)
06:29 TimToady some of the time
06:29 TimToady and some of the rest of the time too :)
06:29 TimToady but not all of the time
06:30 * mtnviewmark wonders about temporal junctives....
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07:29 moritz_ good morning
07:30 masak guten morgen!
07:32 * masak wishes he had clones who could do more work for him
07:32 Patterner masak's clones probably wish the same...
07:33 masak I've got November, Druid, u4x, two secret projects that might not amount to anything... and that's just the Perl 6 stuff
07:33 masak then there's Real Life: work and uni.
07:33 masak oh, and S29, and diverse Rakudo improvements.
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07:39 masak does anyone want to help me figure out why November p6w doesn't build?
07:39 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.45.242 pasted "November p6w build failure" (40 lines, 3.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/34489
07:40 masak that 'line 3, near ";\n\nUse Con"' makes me suspect that the error is in Tags.pm
07:41 masak but building Tags.pm individually works fine.
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07:48 moritz_ November.pm also uses Config
07:49 masak aye, but not on line 3.
07:49 masak a lot of the modules use Config.
07:49 masak (which should really be named November::Config, by the way)
07:49 moritz_ if I precompile Config.pm,, it takes much more time before the same error appears
07:50 masak what might that mean?
07:50 masak moritz_++ # for investigating
07:50 moritz_ dunno
07:51 masak if I precompile Config.pm, I get another error when making November.pm
07:51 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.45.242 pasted "another error" (23 lines, 1.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/34490
07:52 moritz_ after 'make Config.pir' I still get the "parse role" error
07:53 * moritz_ tries  'make -k'
07:53 masak what's '-k', precious?
07:54 moritz_ the same as --keep-going
07:54 moritz_ ie don't abort on error, but build what you can
07:54 masak cool.
07:54 moritz_ makes no difference here
07:55 masak huh -- just made clean, then Config, then November -- now I get a _third_ error!
07:55 masak "Could not find non-existent sub Config"
07:55 masak :(
07:55 moritz_ weird
07:56 masak the order clean, Tags, Config, November again produces the Null PMC access.
07:56 masak there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.
07:57 * Khisanth didn't know there were than many Danish developers
07:57 masak Khisanth: have you read Hamlet?
07:57 Khisanth yes :)
07:58 masak ok.
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07:59 * moritz_ did not, but still knows the qutoe
07:59 moritz_ *quote
07:59 masak I've a good mind to submit all of this as a rakudobug, even though I know that it's not the most helpful approach.
08:00 masak November is not meant to be a sieve for all this brokenness, the test suite is.
08:00 * masak grumbles
08:00 moritz_ what we ought to have in the test suite are a few modules that actually *do* something, and that include one another etc.
08:01 masak yes, of course.
08:01 masak moritz_: and I'm not blaming you specifically for that. it's just something that's not there yet, but ought to be.
08:02 moritz_ i know
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08:02 moritz_ ideally I'd like to have a small application sitting in the test suite
08:03 Matt-W Morning
08:03 masak Matt-W: \o
08:03 Matt-W Sounds like we need to put some more stuff in the test suite
08:04 masak November has been exceedingly unlucky the past week. after I got it out of its half-month bit rot, the rvar branch merged. after I fixed _that_, jnthn's branch merged. :/
08:04 masak Matt-W: oh yes.
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08:06 masak if someone with the tuits and enthusiasm wishes to reduce the current November build failures to a minimal case, I'd be very grateful.
08:06 masak I could do it, but I've been going at it for a week now, and I feel like the Red Queen.
08:07 masak actually, forget about the clones. I need volunteers.
08:10 masak volunteers, here's how you volunteer: (1) acquire November. (2) cd november/p6w. (3) make. (4) observe the error. (5) fiddle with things (comment out and remove code, make names shorter and re-order stuff) until the error is isolated. (6) profit!
08:10 masak kthxbai.
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08:11 masak it's actually fun work, like being Sherlock Holmes for a day. I usually find it mentally rewarding.
08:11 moritz_ (7) send bug report
08:12 masak aye, or paste it here. whatever.
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08:12 mberends masak: POD HAZ BITROT 2
08:12 masak mberends: OIC.
08:12 masak IT SUX
08:13 masak but that's what being an early adopter means. I'm not surprised or disappointed or anything. in general, this is a fun ride.
08:13 mberends tip: s/perl6 --target=pir/parrot perl6.pbc --target=pir/
08:14 masak mberends: aye, good idea.
08:14 masak ihrd did the inverse subst some time ago. I guess he thought it was a good idea.
08:15 masak reverting that now.
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08:16 masak pushed.
08:17 jimmy_ 测试
08:17 masak the error persists.
08:18 jimmy_ Test
08:18 jimmy_ mibbit++
08:18 masak indeed.
08:19 jimmy_ it can tranlate languages.
08:20 jimmy_ s/tranlate/translate/
08:21 Patterner 失败
08:21 jimmy_ perl6 has been in development, progress a bit slow
08:22 masak jimmy_: fell free to help.
08:22 masak s/fell/feel/
08:23 jimmy_ I played out in Chinese characters, was mibbit automatically translated into English to irc
08:23 masak well, that's close, I guess. 'played out' should have been 'typed'.
08:24 jimmy_ Yes, automatic translation is not very accurate
08:24 masak we're not quite there yet, no. :)
08:25 jimmy_ just I typed : 是的,自动翻译不是很准确
08:25 Matt-W I like this stage, it's like back at the start of the process on perl6-language when I used to venture obvious opinions
08:25 Matt-W There's a feeling like you can shape where this amazing thing is going
08:25 masak aye.
08:26 Matt-W Except at the moment, seeing part of the language implemented and actually being able to write code in it, I can see that it's a far better language than I imagined it would be back then
08:26 masak I like the distance Rakudo has come already.
08:27 masak pmichaud++ and jnthn++ do impressive things with their bare hands.
08:27 jimmy_ seems that mibbit used google Translation
08:27 masak jimmy_: not that surprising :)
08:28 jimmy_ masak: a little
08:29 Matt-W masak: I remain in awe of their work. The whole thing just makes my head spin, which is why I'm so keen to look at documentation. It's something I can comprehend, and yet it's also very helpful to people.
08:30 jimmy_ freenode servers will be restarted?
08:30 masak Matt-W: same here. I can do small things on Rakudo, but that's all.
08:35 Matt-W masak: I basically understand PIR and I thought I understood how Rakudo was put together, but whenever I look at seeing about fixing something in RT, I can't find the code responsible for it
08:35 masak that happened to me a lot during the summer. it's sort of the head-against-wall phase.
08:36 masak it passes, to a certain degree at least.
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08:37 Matt-W At some point I'm going to have to see if someone can guide me through some of it, that would probably be hugely helpful
08:37 masak Matt-W: sure. we should take and afternoon some day.
08:37 masak s/and/an/
08:37 Matt-W yes
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10:12 masak rakudo: say * ~~ Whatever
10:12 p6eval rakudo 35577: OUTPUT«1␤»
10:19 Matt-W Is Whatever a special thing
10:20 moritz_ either a special, or a very normal thing, depending on your point of view :-)
10:31 masak whatever...
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11:26 jnthn hi all
11:31 Matt-W hi
11:32 * jnthn gets back to parametric roles
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12:25 jnthn moritz_: ping
12:26 moritz_ jnthn: pong
12:26 jnthn OH HAI
12:26 jnthn I'm looking through parameterized.t
12:26 jnthn It seems to muchly test mixins of parameterized roles, so I may rename it appropriately.
12:26 jnthn However, I spotted this:
12:27 jnthn lives_ok {$a does InitialAttribVal[42]},
12:27 jnthn and later
12:27 ruoso Hello!
12:27 jnthn ok !$a.HOW.does($a, InitialAttribVal[42]), ".HOW.does gives correct information (1-2)";
12:27 jnthn hi ruoso
12:27 jnthn Why would this be expected to hand back false?
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12:31 moritz_ jnthn: probably the test is wrong
12:32 moritz_ jnthn: I just updated it synactically, I haven't reviewed its semantics
12:32 moritz_ jnthn: since you understand the topic much better than I, feel free to change the tests as you see fit
12:32 jnthn moritz_: OK, if you've not reason to believe it really should work that way, then I'll happily change it.
12:33 jnthn Just wanted to check you didn't have spec-based reasons for writing it like that. :-)
12:33 moritz_ http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Humo​r/Docs/ShootYourselfInTheFoot.html # old, but still very good
12:35 jnthn haha!
12:35 moritz_ I particularly liked the ones about assembly and modula-2
12:37 masak yes, that one's a classic.
12:39 masak what would be a worthy Perl 6 analog of the items in that list?
12:40 rakudo_svn r35586 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Get parametric roles working with mixins via the does operator.
12:40 moritz_ what's the difference between does and but?
12:40 jnthn but does a copy first
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12:41 jnthn And then does it to the copy
12:41 jnthn (literally, it is defined in terms of infix:<does>)
12:41 ruoso masak, "when Perl 6 is out you find out that your specie evolved and no longer carry a foot"
12:41 * ruoso hides
12:41 moritz_ so does modifies in-place?
12:41 jnthn moritz_: aye. which was...painful...to make work. :-)
12:41 ruoso moritz_, the operator does, not the method
12:41 masak ruoso: boo :) no more of that meme.
12:42 masak ruoso: I want something that highlights the beauty of Perl 6, but still points out its weaknesses. being late is not a weakness in this case.
12:43 pmichaud "Perl 6 gives you even more ways to shoot yourself in the foot.  You can even shoot both feet at the same time, as well as any permutation of your feet and others' feet that you wish.  Fortunately, you soon wake up and discover that it's all just a dream, since Perl 6 doesn't exist anyway."
12:43 ruoso masak, readibility problems in Perl 5 is FUD, IMNSHO
12:43 masak ruoso: I agree.
12:44 masak ruoso: that doesn't mean we have to make FUD jokes ourselves.
12:44 moritz_ but it's fun, sometimes :-)
12:44 masak moritz_: of course. :)
12:44 ruoso "you might have shot or not your foot,  but you have to wait for the possibilities to collapse"
12:45 masak pmichaud: my colleague always teases me about Perl 6 being 'vapourware', since he knows it makes me steam inside. he liked your description above.
12:46 masak ruoso: I like the direction that one is going.
12:47 masak 'you try to shoot both feet using MMD and junctions, but it turns out that you've misunderstood the syntax, and you car explodes instead'
12:47 moritz_ "Perl 6 makes you shoot your (and everbody else's) feet from at least eight angles at the same time, but you discover that two directions aren't implemented yet, and the other six are bullets are too slow to hurt you:
12:47 ruoso you know, every time I see the "Perl is dead" or "Perl 6 is vapor" I think: If perl were dead and perl 6 irrelevant we wouldn't see so much fuz about it... it would simply disappear...
12:47 moritz_ s/:/"/
12:48 jnthn try { shoot_foot and die } or fail
12:48 masak ruoso: I wish it worked like that. people calling a thing dead can help kill that thing.
12:48 moritz_ jnthn: NULL PMC access in type()
12:48 moritz_ :-)
12:48 masak moritz_: :D
12:48 jnthn # at least make it *compile* guys...we didn't cargo-cault English into Perl 6 for nothing ;-)
12:49 jnthn Well, half of English.
12:49 masak jnthn: sure, but as moritz_ pointed out, it doesn't run.
12:49 jnthn rakudo: try { shoot_foot and die } or fail
12:49 p6eval rakudo 35586: RESULT«{ ... }»
12:49 jnthn It's fine.
12:49 masak oh good.
12:49 masak what's that result?
12:50 jnthn rakudo: try { shoot_foot and die } or epic fail
12:50 p6eval rakudo 35586: RESULT«{ ... }»
12:50 masak !
12:50 moritz_ jnthn: fail() should return some kind of undefined value
12:50 jnthn rakudo: try { shoot_foot and die } or omg anything here I will do a lightning talk on this fail
12:50 p6eval rakudo 35586: RESULT«{ ... }»
12:50 masak :)
12:50 * pmichaud snickers.
12:50 jnthn (or course, we never invoke any of the preceding listops because fail throws a return exception...)
12:51 jnthn It's great for documentation though.
12:51 masak makes for more English-like code.
12:51 jnthn could not be bothered fail()
12:51 masak haha
12:51 jnthn weird fail()
12:51 ruoso masak, but I also have a strong belief that Perl 6 will be as revolutionaire as Perl itself was. So I just keep working and thinking "you'll come back and ask for forgiveness" ;) ;)
12:51 masak rakudo: I can write anything before fail
12:51 p6eval rakudo 35586: OUTPUT«No exception handler and no message␤current instr.: 'return' pc 15582 (src/builtins/control.pir:39)␤»
12:51 pmichaud rakudo:  try { shoot_foot and die }
12:51 p6eval rakudo 35586: RESULT«Null PMC access in find_method()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 74 (EVAL_16:43)␤»
12:51 * masak submits rakudobug
12:52 moritz_ ok, it's find_method, not type that Null's out
12:52 moritz_ :-)
12:52 moritz_ that sure looks like progress
12:52 masak ruoso: trolls don't ask forgiveness. but helping release a great product can be rewarding, yes.
12:52 ruoso masak, not everyone that buys FUD is a troll
12:53 ruoso most of them are inocent bystanders
12:53 masak ruoso: point.
12:53 masak I sure has taught me not to make judgments laregly based on rumours.
12:53 masak s/I/it/
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12:59 masak Concurrent Euclid: You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot.
12:59 masak I've always liked that one.
13:23 pmichaud rakudo: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map({ ; .key => .value + 1}).perl;
13:23 p6eval rakudo 35589: OUTPUT«["a" => 6]␤»
13:23 pmichaud rakudo: my $x = :a<5>; say $x.map({ .key => .value + 1; }).perl;
13:23 p6eval rakudo 35589: OUTPUT«Method 'key' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 101 (EVAL_16:49)␤»
13:25 masak pmichaud: should the former one work, or are my expectations wrong?
13:25 moritz_ pmichaud: that's because it's parsed as hash, I think
13:25 masak s/former/latter/
13:25 moritz_ pmichaud: and it could very well be what the spec says, but I'm not sure
13:25 * masak either
13:25 pmichaud I'm not clear on the spec here either.
13:25 pmichaud Rakudo sees the "block" as a hash composer, because it consists of a single Pair.
13:26 pmichaud so it executes it "immediately", per the spec.
13:26 moritz_ so it's "works as designed"?
13:26 pmichaud depending on how one interprets "designed", yes :-)
13:27 Matt-W Hmm I like the one about CSS: "You shoot your right foot with one hand, then switch hands to shoot your left foot but you realize that the gun has turned into a banana."
13:27 Matt-W even though CSS is not a programming language
13:27 moritz_ there's a lot of truth in that page
13:27 pmichaud anyway, I think we'll need some spec clarification before Rakudo can do anything about that one.
13:28 Matt-W I wonder if Haskell would be "You give your foot to the gun, which returns you a different foot with a bullet hole in it"
13:29 moritz_ probably :-)
13:30 moritz_ ... but only after studying typ^Wballistic theory for two years
13:30 Matt-W Although I'm sure there's potential to bring Monads into it, there's always potential for Monads in a Haskell joke
13:30 Matt-W Or maybe arrows or applicative functors
13:30 masak Matt-W: 'you read a tutorial about the Gun monad, try to shoot yourself in the foot for a few hours, and after a few hours emerge with a beautiful two line program for shooting yourself in the foot ... that the compiler won't accept.'
13:30 moritz_ Matt-W: especially about writing a Monads tutorial
13:31 Matt-W I got my head around Monads pretty easily actually
13:31 jnthn "Then somebody gives you a kick in the monads"
13:31 Matt-W The problem was, then I tried to deal with arrows
13:31 masak Matt-W: :)
13:31 Matt-W and when I finally figured out what they were (or so I thought), they started throwing applicative functors at me
13:31 moritz_ Matt-W: I thought I understood Monads at one point conceptually, but I still lost the war against the type checker
13:31 masak there's always one more level.
13:32 Matt-W I used state monads extensively in my compiler project
13:34 Matt-W the trick I found was understanding what the monad syntax is sugar for, and then what the real syntax means, and then it all fell into place
13:35 masak yes, something similar for me with monads. and with git.
13:39 jnthn OK, slovak class
13:39 * jnthn is still fighting a weird bug
13:39 jnthn with parametric roles and mixins
13:40 jnthn back later
13:41 * Matt-W envisages jnthn jumping up in the middle of his class and shouting "I've got it! That's the problem!" and running for a computer to fix the bug
13:49 masak except he shouts it in slovak.
13:53 Matt-W Well of course, but I don't speak any Slovak so I can't provide an accurate quote
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14:17 pmichaud eval("I've got it!  That's the problem!", :lang<slovak>)
14:21 masak :)
14:23 Matt-W umm
14:23 Matt-W wouldn't that try and interpret it as written in Slovak?
14:23 pmichaud Sure, thus solving the problem.  :-)
14:24 Matt-W or causing a parse error
14:24 pmichaud what Rakudo will really want is:   eval("...", :target<lolcode>)   which runs the "..." source through the compiler to produce LOLCODE output :-)
14:25 Matt-W heh
14:25 Matt-W why would you want to produce LOLCODE? :P
14:25 pmichaud CHEEZBURGERS
14:26 Matt-W Although I think I actually understand the LOLCODE compiler in the Parrot repository, so it does have a purpose :)
14:26 maerzhase joined #perl6
14:26 pmichaud understanding being one of its purposes :-)
14:26 pmichaud er, "promoting understanding" being one of its purposes.
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14:30 Matt-W yes, and it's serving it quite well really
14:30 Matt-W maybe I should redo my dissertation compiler using PCT
14:30 Matt-W Would be really easy I think
14:40 rakudo_svn r35592 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 284 files, 6254 passing, 0 failing
14:41 Matt-W hurrah!
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15:42 * jnthn is back
15:43 jnthn Sadly, I didn't have any flashes of insight about the bug during Slovak class. :-(
15:43 jnthn Hmmm...a Perl 6 grammar to parse Slovak. :-)
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15:52 pmichaud std:  my $t = 5; $t\i
15:52 p6eval std 24912: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error at /tmp/7zlQrv1NB3 line 1:␤------> [32mmy $t = 5; $t[31m\i[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        POST␤   infix or meta-infix␤        infix stopper␤    postfix␤        postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤
15:52 p6eval ..statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤     wh...
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15:57 masak hm, did I remember to report that to the ticket about postfix:<i>? don't remember.
15:57 pmichaud you reported that it didn't parse in Rakudo.
15:58 pmichaud I'm replying now to report that it doesn't parse in STD.pm either (duplicate of RT #60148, for that part)
15:58 pmichaud (replied.)
16:00 |jedai| joined #perl6
16:00 masak ok. good.
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16:13 * jnthn does a spectest run, hoping his changes don't cause epic fail
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16:20 rakudo_svn r35593 | infinoid++ | [codingstd] Fix a trailing_space.t failure in rakudo.
16:21 masak ok, I found the parsing error in November from this morning.
16:22 masak November builds now.
16:23 masak \o/
16:28 moritz_ what was the problem?
16:34 masak a line 'role Session;' that wasn't the first line.
16:34 masak the error message wasn't very helpful.
16:40 masak 'make test' still gives errors, but it does it faster now that building works. :)
16:40 masak moritz_: maybe I will follow your idea now and make the test target depend on all
16:41 masak I also have an idea of how to temporarily fix the test failures.
16:46 TimToady do you ever try parsing November with STD?  It might find certain errors quicker, and future proof you against rakudo convergence with STD
16:46 TimToady it might have found the role problem, for instance
16:46 masak TimToady: it's an interesting suggestion.
16:46 masak I don't currently have Perl 5.10.
16:47 masak but if I get it, I will try.
16:47 TimToady it's also quite likely to find places where rakudo is giving you more slack than STD allows :)
16:47 masak TimToady: can STD hand me an AST with interesting info too? I want to graph the growth of November :)
16:48 masak TimToady: yes, that might be good to know, too.
16:48 TimToady well, viv can give you a rudimentary AST
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16:48 masak TimToady: that might be enough. will try that.
16:48 masak slightly OT: what's the easiest way to install 5.10 on Mac OS X nowadays?
16:49 * masak tries from source
16:49 pasteling "moritz_" at 132.187.31.74 pasted "November + STD.pm - nearly happy marriage" (38 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/34494
16:50 |jedai| joined #perl6
16:51 masak moritz_++
16:51 masak will look at the things it found.
16:51 moritz_ masak: it parses /^ \w+ $/ as variable $/
16:51 masak moritz_: yes, I had that problem in Druid for a while too. but that was in an interpolated eval string :)
16:52 TimToady hh
16:52 TimToady huh
16:53 TimToady I guess that's the right answer from the viewpoint of LTM, but...
16:53 masak TimToady: I can change it, but it'll be a common pitfall :)
16:54 moritz_ at least it's green up to the $, and read starting from /]
16:54 TimToady does the problem go away with a space between $ and /?
16:54 * moritz_ tries
16:55 masak I would guess so.
16:55 TimToady strange, bare /^ \w+ $/ doesn't fail
16:55 moritz_ uhm, it also fails with ws
16:55 TimToady then it's not the $/ var
16:56 moritz_ right
16:56 TimToady runaway / from earlier, maybe?
16:56 moritz_ but I wonder where it found the suffix regex modifier
16:56 TimToady but then why that error
16:56 TimToady right
16:56 moritz_ no /\w in sight
16:57 TimToady where can I find a copy of the file?
16:59 TimToady I see a bug in STD, I think.  is there any /] anywhere?
16:59 masak TimToady: http://github.com/viklund/november
16:59 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/November.pm
16:59 moritz_ TimToady: aye
17:00 moritz_ it's [$string, /regex/]
17:00 rakudo_svn r35594 | jkeenan++ | Applying patch submitted by jimmy in TT#175.  POD corrections in two files.
17:00 moritz_ std: [rx/a/]
17:00 p6eval std 24912: OUTPUT«can't create lex/STD/termish.store: Permission denied at Cursor.pm line 532␤00:07 101m␤»
17:02 TimToady patching
17:04 masak November++ # constantly finding new uses
17:05 pugs_svn r24913 | lwall++ | [STD] spurious ] removed from obsolete modifier test
17:05 TimToady okay, Novermber.pm now parses in STD
17:05 masak thank you.
17:05 TimToady obviously a fossil from translating <[abc]> to < a b c >
17:06 masak what about the warnings about unknown routines in the nopaste?
17:06 masak something to be concerned about?
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17:07 TimToady not really, if they come from use calls
17:07 TimToady STD doesn't do "use" yet
17:07 masak TimToady: but 'if' and 'else'?
17:08 TimToady those you need to worry about
17:08 masak ok, pasting that code too, hold on
17:08 TimToady means you have if() somewhere
17:08 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.45.242 pasted "the code with if and else warnings" (102 lines, 3.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/34495
17:09 masak TimToady: I don't think I do.
17:09 moritz_ ack 'if\(' p6w/
17:09 moritz_ no result
17:09 masak lines 80 and 83 which the warnings indicate contain closing braces
17:09 masak (uh oh, gotta go soon)
17:10 moritz_ maybe it's an if that's used as an expression?
17:10 masak I don't see that either.
17:10 alester moritz: Or    ack -Q 'if(' p6w/
17:10 moritz_ std: 1 + if 1 { 2 }
17:10 * alester tires of quoting regexes
17:10 p6eval std 24913: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error at /tmp/O7UD6a1QSy line 1:␤------> [32m1 + if 1 [31m{ 2 }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤00:05 85m␤»
17:11 moritz_ alester: thanks, I didn't know that
17:11 alester -Q = \Q, basically
17:11 masak alester: thanks from me too :)
17:13 TimToady probably a backtracking problem out of statement_control:if
17:13 masak ok. nothing to worry about, then.
17:14 masak see y'all around.
17:15 PerlJam alester++
17:15 alester :-)
17:16 alester you guys oughta run ack --man some time just for fun.
17:17 PerlJam yeah.  I already know enough features to cover 95% of what I use it for, so there is little incentive to read the docs  :-)
17:17 moritz_ alester: or just continue reading #perl6. I learned amazing things here... :-)
17:18 alester and yet, isn't htat -Q handy?
17:18 moritz_ it is indeed
17:18 PerlJam yep
17:19 PerlJam -w is handy too
17:19 TimToady it's parsing Text__Markup__Wiki__Minimal__Syntax::TOP as a listop
17:20 TimToady and eating the block as an argument
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17:28 szabgab I am trying to catch up with the basics again, but I could not find how to read from STDIN
17:28 szabgab I tried    my $input = $*IN.readline;
17:28 szabgab but it segfaulted on Rakudo
17:30 rakudo_svn r35597 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Various (some rather subtle) changes to infix:<does> and infix:<but>, to bring them up to date, fix various bugs and ensure they work in the parametric case too.
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17:41 pugs_svn r24914 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Update perameterized roles test that checks mixins to match how I read S12, and fudge it for Rakudo.
17:42 pugs_svn r24915 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] Rename test.
17:43 pugs_svn r24916 | jnthn++ | [t/spec] What on *earth* was I thinking? Correct the last patch...
17:46 jnthn Enough code! To the pub!!
17:46 * jnthn afk
17:46 pmichaud ("role Session;" error message) -- Rakudo just gives the same error message that STD.pm does for that one, I think.
17:47 pmichaud std:   say 'hello';  role Session;
17:47 p6eval std 24916: OUTPUT«00:05 83m␤»
17:47 pmichaud okay, I'm wrong.
17:47 pmichaud Rakudo just gives the same error message that STD.pm claims to give if reading the STD.pm code.
17:47 pmichaud Either that or I'm misinterpreting what should happen there.
17:48 pmichaud rakudo:  say 'hello';  role Session;
17:48 p6eval rakudo 35597: OUTPUT«Unable to parse role definition at line 1, near ";"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
17:49 pmichaud afk for a while # errands
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17:50 rakudo_svn r35598 | jonathan++ | [rakudo] Add parameterized-mixin.t, which is currently heavily fudged (that should change tomorrow) but tests todays additions.
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18:06 szabgab rakudo: "42".bytes
18:06 p6eval rakudo 35597: OUTPUT«Method 'bytes' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 63 (EVAL_13:40)␤»
18:06 szabgab rakudo: "42".chars
18:06 p6eval rakudo 35597: RESULT«2»
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20:19 diakopter rakudo: Grammar;
20:19 p6eval rakudo 35600: RESULT«Grammar»
20:20 diakopter rakudo: Grammar NQP;
20:20 p6eval rakudo 35600: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "NQP;"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
20:26 pmichaud std:  Grammar NQP;
20:26 p6eval std 24916: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error at /tmp/4bigtXB4cx line 1:␤------> [32mGrammar [31mNQP;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤   infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤00:05 85m␤»
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20:54 diakopter std: Grammar;
20:55 p6eval std 24916: OUTPUT«00:05 82m␤»
20:55 [particle]1 std: grammar NQP;
20:55 p6eval std 24916: OUTPUT«00:05 82m␤»
20:55 diakopter -_-
20:55 diakopter o_o
20:56 diakopter pmurias: ping
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21:11 Su-Shee hi
21:20 pugs_svn r24917 | duff++ | test
21:21 meppl good night
21:22 pugs_svn r24918 | duff++ | untest
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21:34 pugs_svn r24919 | duff++ | retest
21:35 pugs_svn r24920 | duff++ | unretest
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22:22 pmurias diakopter: pong
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22:28 moritz_ rakudo: say "(a)" ~~ m/'(' ~ ')' a*/
22:28 lambdabot moritz_: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:28 p6eval rakudo 35601: OUTPUT«(a)␤»
22:29 moritz_ @clear
22:29 lambdabot Messages cleared.
22:29 moritz_ rakudo: say "(a)" ~~ m/:dba("paren expression") '(' ~ ')' a*/
22:29 p6eval rakudo 35601: OUTPUT«(a)␤»
22:29 moritz_ rakudo: say "(a]" ~~ m/:dba("paren expression") '(' ~ ')' a*/
22:29 p6eval rakudo 35601: OUTPUT«Unable to parse "paren expression", couldn't find final ')'␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Match;FAILGOAL' pc 2927 (compilers/pge/PGE/Regex.pir:456)␤»
22:30 TimToady thanks
22:31 moritz_ that's quite nice ;-)
22:31 moritz_ (the :dba stuff)
22:31 TimToady std: say "(a]" ~~ m/:dba("paren expression") '(' ~ ')' a*/
22:31 p6eval std 24920: OUTPUT«00:07 88m␤»
22:32 moritz_ rakudo: sub { 1;
22:32 p6eval rakudo 35603: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 1, near ""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
22:32 moritz_ rakudo: m{
22:32 p6eval rakudo 35603: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "{"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
22:32 TimToady I think rakudo could afford to lose the extra quotes in the message
22:33 TimToady makes it sound like it's not a real paren expression...
22:33 moritz_ just like <block> isn't delimited differently
22:35 moritz_ rakudo: :($a); say 1;
22:35 p6eval rakudo 35603: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 40 (EVAL_15:28)␤»
22:35 moritz_ rakudo: :($); say 1;
22:35 p6eval rakudo 35603: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 1, near ":($); say "␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
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22:41 pmichaud the quotes in the message are actually an artifact of something else going on from the Parrot side.
22:41 pmichaud we can get rid of them at some point, but it was actually more work to get rid of them than leave them there :-|
22:41 pmichaud TimToady: did you see my earlier std parse for   $t\i ?
22:42 pmichaud std:  my $t = 5;  say $t\i;
22:42 p6eval std 24920: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error at /tmp/uYRiu08SdJ line 1:␤------> [32mmy $t = 5;  say $t[31m\i;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  POST␤   infix or meta-infix␤        infix stopper␤    postfix␤        postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤
22:42 p6eval ..statement modifier loop␤  terminat...
22:42 moritz_ pmichaud: I'm currently plugging in some more :dba markers into rakudo's grammar - any objections?
22:42 pmichaud moritz_: only put them where we're currently using ~
22:42 pmichaud STD has more, yes, but PGE/rakudo doesn't have a way to make use of those yet.
22:43 moritz_ pmichaud: ok
22:43 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
22:46 On joined #perl6
22:48 On haaaaptchi...
22:49 On Is Perl dead and Phyton reborn?
22:49 * On does not think so... just hypothetical question :)
22:49 moritz_ On: just reverse your nick name, and you have your answer
22:51 On :)
22:51 On Is Larry saying something sometimes here?
22:52 moritz_ yes
22:52 On Would like to hear what he thinks of this: http://www.web-app.net/?Is_Perl_dead_and_Ph​yton_reborn_/&amp;action=viewnews&amp;id=60
22:52 * On is a Perl fighter, a true partizan.
22:53 moritz_ On: if you want an informed and well-researched article about perl's state, read (and recommend) http://www.heise-online.co.uk/open/Healthche​ck-Perl-The-Perl-Future--/features/112388/0 instead
22:53 On Perl made me getting a job, a wife and kids... so if it dies, I die too!
22:54 On Thanks
22:55 PerlJam On: Perl isn't likely to die any time soon.
22:55 PerlJam (and I fully expect there to be perl-fud 10 years from now just like there is today)
22:56 PerlJam perl is dying!  (along with physics, literature, and bunches of other maturing disciplines)
22:56 moritz_ the mere fact that people are proclaiming its death mean that it's not - if it were, nobody would be talking about it
22:56 namenlos joined #perl6
22:57 On I get this strange feeling that PHP activists been fighting Perl for years now, you can even find them on perlmonks, its tragic.
22:58 moritz_ it's annoying, yes. But tragic? dunno
22:58 On PHP namespaces.... never understood what they were thinking of, certainly not of a language for large applications.
23:01 Southen joined #perl6
23:05 TimToady I just figure it's people who are trying to motivate us :)
23:06 moritz_ I personally prefer positive motivation ;-)
23:07 vixey On, oh PHP is great for large applications you just need to use include($_GET['page']) and stuff :p
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23:16 wolverian hrm, feather's irssi is giving me glib warnings
23:18 TimToady my warnings are always glib
23:20 wolverian are they critical too?
23:20 Limbic_Region TimToady - surgery?
23:21 * jnthn is back from the pub
23:21 |jedai| joined #perl6
23:21 moritz_ wolverian: I'll do an upgrade on feather, dunno if that might help
23:21 [particle]1 joined #perl6
23:22 wolverian I was thinking that perhaps someone is doing an upgrade right now.
23:23 moritz_ I didn't when you reported the warnings
23:23 wolverian weird.
23:24 wolverian the errors are all related to the config file
23:24 wolverian perhaps it got corrupted somehow.
23:33 |jedai| joined #perl6
23:34 diakopter TimToady: lol @ glib pun
23:37 gravity joined #perl6
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