Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-01-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 diakopter gee whiz, that's what the README said!
00:00 diakopter :D
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00:06 lergo so who does haskelll
00:09 ruoso lergo, some people do around here... but not many of them this days
00:09 lergo oh ok
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00:13 diakopter <sigh> cabal.exe   cabal: getHostByName: does not exist (no such host entry)
00:17 ruoso hmmm
00:17 * diakopter downloads and extracts the .tar.gz manually :|
00:18 ruoso it sure makes sense to port m0ld to p5
00:20 lergo erm an unsigned int can hold up to 4,294,967,295
00:20 * lergo just learnt something
00:21 diakopter m0ld built and installed
00:21 diakopter now to the second line of the .sh
00:21 diakopter er, Makefile
00:22 ruoso cool... now comes the hard part
00:22 * diakopter goes afk for a bit
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00:59 * diakopter returns from afk
01:01 diakopter ruoso: ok, how to do this ri step
01:02 diakopter I mean, scons step
01:04 diakopter hmm
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01:41 diakopter ruoso: after lots of SConstruct tweaking, the first .ri->.c file gets partially complete
01:42 diakopter ruoso: the last two lines are:
01:42 diakopter void control_exception_return_mold_init() { SMOP__Object* interpreter = SMOP__GlobalInterpreter;
01:42 diakopter line break after {
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07:54 pmurias diakopter: one thing you should check before trying to compile the .ri files is that m0ld is working properly
07:54 lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:56 pmurias diakopter: if ./m0ld_exe < m0ld/hello_world.m0ld prints out some C code it is
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09:10 rakudo_svn r35667 | cotto++ | [pod] add a =cut, noticed by jimmy++
09:32 pasteling "ejs" at 77.109.30.215 pasted "parrot compile error" (13 lines, 797B) at http://sial.org/pbot/34522
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09:33 ejs I'm getting the following compile error while making perl6 on my macbook: http://sial.org/pbot/34522
09:35 ejs anyone knows what does this error means?
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10:31 mj41 ejs: fixed in r35670 http://tt.ro.vutbr.cz/report/pr-Parrot/rp-trunk
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10:38 pugs_svn r24936 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] Updated to jquery 1.3, latest STD.pm and perl6.vim
10:38 pugs_svn r24936 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] Bumped version to 0.034 for CPAN
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11:58 ruoso pmurias, I think there's a good reason to port m0ld to p5 now
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12:24 ejs mj41: thanks
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14:45 pmurias ruoso: hi
15:00 rakudo_svn r35692 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 286 files, 0 passing, 6288 failing
15:00 rakudo_svn r35692 | pmichaud++ | * r35664 broke the Parrot build, so no passing tests :-(
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15:08 pbuetow should be -- :)
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17:43 meppl good night
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18:23 ruoso hi pmurias
18:32 pmurias re rewrite, you want installing smop to be easier?
18:36 pmurias ruoso: bundling stuff in a installer might be a better solution to make the windows folk happy
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18:44 ruoso pmurias, I'm not able to make such a bundle
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18:47 pmurias ruoso,diaktoper: how hard is it to get m0ld to compile on windows?
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18:53 ruoso pmurias, m0ld was compiled
18:53 ruoso but the .ri file was not compiled as expected
18:58 pmurias ruoso: it might be a problem with the tools/ri m0ld integration
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20:38 diakopter pmurias: only at the keyboard for this message... yes, ri produced some stuff... but I'll try the m0ld hello world now.
20:39 masak rakudo: my @a = '--size=7', '--size=8'; if any(@a) ~~ / '--size=' (\d+) / { say $/.WHAT; }
20:39 p6eval rakudo 35706: OUTPUT«Invalid namespace key of type 'Object' in get_pointer_keyed␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;get_parrotclass' pc 1213 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:594)␤»
20:39 masak I might be biting off more than I can chew here, trying to do junctions and regex matching at the same time...
20:40 masak ...but is there any way I could do the above and have it DWIM, or should I use a for loop instead?
20:40 jnthn That'd be the obvious way to write it...
20:40 masak yes.
20:40 * masak does it that way
20:41 diakopter pmurias: http://perl6.pastebin.com/fae769c5
20:41 buubot diakopter: The paste fae769c5 has been copied to http://erxz.com/pb/14901
20:41 jnthn But above should work.
20:41 diakopter ruoso: see above
20:41 jnthn I can guess why it doesn't.
20:41 masak jnthn: on my bow (some revisions back), I get Failure.
20:41 masak rakudo: push my @a, "a" xx 5; @a[1] = "b"; say @a
20:41 p6eval rakudo 35706: OUTPUT«Invalid namespace key of type 'Object' in get_pointer_keyed␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;get_parrotclass' pc 1213 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:594)␤»
20:42 masak jnthn: seems to be endemic.
20:42 diakopter afk
20:45 jnthn oh, ouch
20:45 * jnthn knows Whiteknight modified that method recently...
20:45 Whiteknight who did what now?
20:45 masak quick, hit the undo button!
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20:46 Whiteknight shit, that's something that should have been in the test suite if we're relying on it in Rakudo
20:46 * Whiteknight goes to fix it
20:46 masak Whiteknight: also known as 'what!? we don't have a test for this?'
20:47 masak I know the feeling.
20:48 Whiteknight okay, I have a hack solution building now
20:49 Whiteknight Eventually we're going to need a comprehensive list of things that people want to be able to pass to the get_class opcode, because everytime I think I've accounted for the all another comes through and breaks everything.
21:01 Whiteknight it doesn't help that the svn server appears to be acting up, and what I have on my machine doesn't appear to be in sync with whats on the server
21:02 Whiteknight okat, committed. Try r35707
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22:09 masak rakudo: if 5 > my $a = 4 { say $a }
22:09 p6eval rakudo 35707: OUTPUT«Unable to set lvalue on PAST::Val node␤current instr.: 'parrot;PAST;Val;lvalue' pc 566 (src/PAST/Node.pir:161)␤»
22:09 masak it works if I use parens, but what does that error mean?
22:11 jnthn Hmm.
22:11 jnthn masak: What's the next line down in the backtrace?
22:12 masak called from Sub 'parrot;PAST;Compiler;as_post' pc 4013 (src/PAST/Compiler.pir:986)
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22:12 jnthn Ah, damm. It's failed in the PAST->POST.
22:12 * masak submits rakudobug
22:12 jnthn masak: Off hand, I don't know. I'd have to see what PAST tree it's producing to have a good idea.
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22:16 szabgab rakudo: for (my $i = 1; $i <= 3; $i++) { say $i; }
22:16 p6eval rakudo 35707: OUTPUT«2␤»
22:16 szabgab is c-style for loop not  supported any more, am I making a mistake or just it is not yet implemented in rakudo ?
22:16 masak szabgab: that's loop nowadays.
22:17 masak C<loop>.
22:17 szabgab ok, so why did that print 2 ?
22:17 masak szabgab: either because it's legal, or it's a bug in Rakudo. :)
22:17 masak rakudo: loop (my $i = 1; $i <= 3; $i++) { say $i; }
22:17 p6eval rakudo 35707: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
22:18 masak but for most cases, I'd say it's a punishable offense to use C-style loops nowadays.
22:18 szabgab btw STD.pm or more correctly the one in Padre does not like the loop syntax eiteher
22:19 masak szabgab: ok.
22:19 szabgab sure, I am translating the Cookbook
22:19 masak std: loop (my $i = 1; $i <= 3; $i++) { say $i; }
22:19 p6eval std 24936: OUTPUT«00:05 86m␤»
22:19 masak szabgab: it's fine.
22:19 szabgab what was that output from std ?
22:20 masak szabgab: that it's fine.
22:20 masak 5 seconds, 86 megabytes.
22:20 szabgab nice way of saying it :-)
22:20 szabgab ah
22:20 masak szabgab: if you're translating to Perl 6, please translate to idiomatic Perl 6, unless the example is meant to be quaint. :)
22:20 szabgab I am writing sg like "the c-stule way is now this though the perl 6 recommended way is the for loop
22:21 szabgab besides I am just playing with it
22:21 masak sure, sure.
22:21 masak anyway, both std and Rakudo like the 'loop' three-part loop.
22:22 szabgab maybe I  have an old std or sg is broken in the padre connection, I ask azawawi
22:23 masak STD.pm gets old very quickly, I think.
22:23 masak it's changed slightly in the last few days... but not in that area, AFAIK.
22:25 szabgab oh, now the syntax error message is gone :-)
22:26 szabgab its a bit slow on my end, you know
22:26 masak sometimes talking about it helps. :)
22:28 szabgab oh I am telling the same to my patients
22:29 szabgab err, students
22:30 araujo hah
22:33 szabgab rakudo for 1..3 -> $i { say $i }
22:33 szabgab rakudo: for 1..3 -> $i { say $i }
22:33 p6eval rakudo 35707: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
22:33 szabgab rakudo: for 1..3:by(2) -> $i { say $i }
22:33 p6eval rakudo 35707: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near ":by(2) -> "␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
22:33 szabgab std: for 1..3:by(2) -> $i { say $i }
22:33 p6eval std 24936: OUTPUT«00:05 87m␤»
22:34 masak for Range.new(:from(1), :to(3), :by(2)) -> $i { say $i }
22:34 masak rakudo: for Range.new(:from(1), :to(3), :by(2)) -> $i { say $i }
22:34 p6eval rakudo 35707: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
22:34 masak hm.
22:34 * masak reads source
22:35 masak szabgab: ISTR someone implementing :by in the Range constructor. but that code is not there, so either I was dreaming or it never reached trunk.
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22:37 szabgab so shall I now mail rakudobug?
22:37 masak szabgab: for a TODO thing? yes, if you like.
22:37 masak it's not a bug, just a missing feature.
22:38 szabgab ok so  I put TODO in the subject?
22:38 masak or do you mean the Rakudo error? that might be because adverbs aren't parsed correctly, now that I think about it.
22:39 masak szabgab: depends on what you're reporting.
22:39 szabgab as I could not fall asleep I wanted to implement one of the entries in the cookbook and blog about it
22:39 masak ok.
22:40 szabgab but it is not implemented yet :-(
22:40 masak nope.
22:40 szabgab btw you'll be at NPW, right ?
22:40 masak aye.
22:40 masak talking about November.
22:40 masak (I hope.)
22:40 szabgab do you know if the Perl 6 workshop is still on ?
22:40 szabgab it is gone from the website
22:40 masak last I heard, it's still on.
22:40 masak but I didn't know it was gone from the website.
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22:45 masak jnthn: your two comments just got turned into Druid improvements. thanks. :)
22:46 jnthn masak: Two comments?
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22:47 masak jnthn: yes, one about the human-vs-computer menu at the start, and one about the paucity of syntax explanation.
22:48 masak you just made them in passing, but they were important feedback to me.
22:49 jnthn Ah, great. :-)
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22:50 szabgab what is the name of the :by(2) part ?
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22:50 jnthn Adverb.
22:51 szabgab tx
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22:54 ekole so guys Haskell is more of a specialise language?
22:55 masak ekole: no, I think it's a generalise language.
22:55 masak ekole: what do you mean?
22:55 ekole in comparison to say java
22:55 ekole java generics? haskell-type classes?
22:55 jnthn No. You just have to be more special to be able to write Haskell than Java.
22:55 jnthn ;-)
22:55 * jnthn isn't special enough
22:56 ekole :D
22:56 jnthn Both do parametric polymorphism, yes.
22:56 masak I find writing Haskell a bit meditative. until I actually try to run the thing.
22:57 ekole i agree
22:57 ekole bit meditative
22:57 masak speaking of that, time to sleep...
22:57 * masak waves
22:57 ekole i must ask though
22:58 ekole why do universities ask you to write parsers?
22:59 szabgab http://szabgab.com/blog/2009/01/1232232861.html  it is not much, but now I hope I can go to sleep :-)
22:59 jnthn ekole: Probably because parsing data is a fairly common/useful thing to do.
23:00 jnthn Plus it's a bit of a computer-sciency-ish thingy. :-)
23:00 ekole Agreed
23:00 ekole Another thing Haskell is the originator of all the ideas that are stolen by Java/C# and made completely useless?
23:01 jnthn I think the ideas you're probably referring to come from functional programming more widely than Haskell.
23:01 jnthn I didn't know Java really had taken many of them.
23:02 jnthn C# took lambda expressions and gave them a pretty decent syntax. I've used them plenty, it's far from useless.
23:02 ekole yes it is useless
23:03 jnthn How so?
23:03 ekole since their implementation is already inferior
23:03 jnthn Erm.
23:04 jnthn Details?
23:04 jnthn Examples?
23:04 ekole of it being useless?
23:04 jnthn Yes.
23:04 jnthn Given I've used it and found the complete opposite, you'll have to do pretty well to convince me. :-)
23:05 ekole ok it's the blub paradox:)
23:05 ayrnieu no, this is not the blub paradox.
23:06 ayrnieu (unless you're talking about your own view of C#)
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23:07 ekole ayrnieu: yes, it clearly is - I don't think jnthn or you're lying
23:07 ekole but
23:08 ekole jnthn: well, as for the details, , so I'll start with the easiest: C# 3.0's lambda expression do not permit point-free expression
23:08 ekole (not completely true, but if you try, you will hit a barrier pretty early on)
23:08 ayrnieu ekole, first of all, blub applies when there are interlingual comparisons.  "Some feature of C# is of use to me." is what jnthn has said, and is what you dispute.
23:09 ekole also, the type inferencer is pathetic
23:09 ayrnieu jnthn did not for instance say "Some corresponding feature of Haskell's is not as good."
23:09 ekole blub applies
23:09 ekole "is of use to jnthn" is an infection of the mind called pragmatism
23:10 ekole but anyhow can we go back to the details he askedf for? :)
23:11 jnthn Interesting points.
23:11 jnthn I agree the type inferencer could be improved.
23:11 jnthn At the same time, I don't blame the languae designers not wanting to box themselves in.
23:12 jnthn The line between decidable and undecidable is rather easy to cross when it comes to type inference.
23:12 szabgab pragmatism++
23:13 jnthn The type inferencer may have the limitations it does either because other aspects of the language already prohibit it from being smarter, because they want to leave the door open to doing such things in the future, or because they want to avoid "too much magic".
23:14 ekole jnthn: no the limitations exist because the language is more of a marketing tool than a useful language
23:15 jnthn Just because a language has reasonable market share doesn't make it a marketting tool.
23:15 ekole the MSR guys admit that when not on record
23:15 ekole I didn't say that - straw man
23:15 ekole :)
23:15 jnthn If we were talking C# 1.0 here, sure, I was skeptical too.
23:16 jnthn But by C# 3.0 it's evovled into a multi-paradigm language that doesn't get in my way too much.
23:16 ekole C# is inferior, the programming language researchers at MSR *know this* because I talk to them and it is so obvious that it needn't even be stated all that much
23:17 ekole their influence on C# is filtered through marketing, since C# is mostly about marketing, not usefulness
23:17 jnthn If we s/marketting/a language the average joe programming is capable of using/ I'd agree with you...
23:17 jnthn *programmer
23:18 ekole F# is waiting in the pipeline for the right time for marketing
23:18 jnthn Sure, we can talk all day about the wonders of Haskell/ML and their type inference and purity and a bunch of other things.
23:18 jnthn And I'm sure we can list a bunch of ways in which they are superior.
23:18 ekole it can do everything C# can do, but better but it is also inferior
23:19 ekole C# is inferior in *every* way
23:19 jnthn To Haskell?
23:19 ayrnieu ekole can't see uses for 'inferior' languages through his blub, jnthn, and he can't see his blub because he's ripped the term out of its context and taken it as a way to call you an unwashed heathen.
23:19 ekole I needn't even go that far
23:19 ekole F# exists -- QED
23:20 ayrnieu so this is one of those cases where you should just ask your pastor for help finding appropriate apologia.
23:21 jnthn "C# is inferior" and such views are a lot of what put me off doing a computer science PhD in the programming languages field.
23:22 ekole yes you have already displayed a hint of pragmatism
23:22 jnthn Because wax as many I met did about how what they had was superior to what everyone else was using, I preferred to instead work on things that were actually *useful*.
23:22 jnthn ekole: Yeah, and the world could do with a lot more of it.
23:22 * jnthn afk for a bit
23:23 ayrnieu ekole, "X is superior" is meaningless outside of "X is superior for these ends".  And 'ends' for programming languages, oddly enough, are *bodies of code* that *do things*.  There is therefore an ineradicable pragmatism in language use.
23:23 ekole jnthn: can you conceive two languages right now where one is inferior to the other?
23:24 ekole wait he did that,  C# 1.0 to C# 3.0
23:24 ekole erm why are you so afraid of such suggestions then?
23:26 s1n1 my hammer smashes things better than your hammer
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23:40 mberends masak: ping
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23:58 diakopter ruoso: ping

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