Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-01-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady std: [R!===] 1,2
00:00 p6eval std 25114: OUTPUT«can't create lex/STD/prefix_circumfix_meta_o​perator__S_081reduce_03.store: Permission denied at Cursor.pm line 534␤00:02 33m␤»
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00:13 s1n pmichaud: decide on a vcs yet?
00:20 pugs_svn r25115 | lwall++ | [STD] more infix whackage to fix non-HASH error, simplify some of the cases
00:22 TimToady std: [R!===] 1,2
00:22 p6eval std 25114: OUTPUT«00:02 35m␤»
00:22 TimToady std: $a X+ $b
00:23 p6eval std 25114: OUTPUT«Not a HASH reference at STD.pm line 12278.␤00:02 33m␤»
00:23 TimToady well, gotta wait again...
00:25 * [particle] *yawns*
00:25 [particle] (with squeaky-clean teeth)
00:37 shinobi-cl the perl6 wiki at wikia.com now has 47 articles! Some good, some not so good :) All worth a look
00:37 pugs_svn r25116 | lwall++ | [STD] prev patch was malformed...
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00:45 TimToady std: $a X+ $b
00:45 p6eval std 25116: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
00:45 TimToady std: $a X>>+<< $b
00:46 p6eval std 25116: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Can't understand next input--giving up at /tmp/oqJjcUHUGW line 1:␤------> [32m$a X>>[31m+<< $b[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ infix␤   infix or meta-infix␤       infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ terminator␤00:02 33m␤»
00:46 TimToady wait again...sigh
00:47 mtnviewmark by the by --- I got STD.pm to all work on Macintosh... if that is why you're executing here
00:47 diakopter s1n: yeah... see http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo
00:48 diakopter moritz_: how to update p6eval to rebuild rakudo from git?
00:49 diakopter (not to mention parrot from the new subversion)
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00:57 TimToady std: $a X>>+<< $b
00:57 p6eval std 25116: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
00:58 TimToady std: $a X«[+]»X $b
00:58 p6eval std 25116: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
00:59 TimToady std: $a RX«[XR/]»= $b
01:00 p6eval std 25116: OUTPUT«00:02 34m␤»
01:01 diakopter TimToady: /me asks to ask about try5... what is it?
01:04 TimToady something ancient to run STD--dunno if it even still works
01:04 diakopter ohh... ok.
01:04 TimToady I just use tryfile or viv mostly these days
01:05 diakopter is there a way to feed the parser only a bit of input at a time from another prog?
01:06 diakopter that is, can the parser digest a 'partial' bit of syntax?
01:06 diakopter and return the tree
01:06 diakopter (created thus far)
01:07 diakopter (esp. if the parser is still inside some node(s))
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01:10 frew can anyone tell my why this perl5 is wrong: perl -E "$frew //= 'frew'"
01:10 frew I've never been able to get //= to work
01:10 frew (note: this is 5.10)
01:13 diakopter frew: works for me?
01:14 frew weird
01:14 diakopter what's your error message?
01:14 frew I get: can't modify pattern match (m//) in scalar assignment at -e line 1
01:14 frew but I am typing perl -E
01:14 diakopter what about perl -v
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01:15 frew v5.10.0
01:15 diakopter frew: which shell/OS
01:15 TimToady you can call the .parse method, but that doesn't let you continue a compilation unit
01:15 TimToady frew: probably the shell is interpolating $frew
01:15 frew zsh
01:15 frew mmm
01:15 frew good call
01:15 frew ubuntu
01:15 diakopter frew: works for me (on windows/cmd.exe!)
01:15 frew backslashing the $ gives no errors
01:15 [particle]1 or using single quotes
01:16 frew yep
01:16 frew thanks friends!
01:17 diakopter TimToady: any suggestions for creating callbacks/hooks?
01:17 TimToady viv demonstrates one way to get callbacks at reduction points
01:17 diakopter or, setting 'breakpoints' or something
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01:29 TimToady all right, finally back to 100% passing for make testt
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01:29 TimToady feel free to break STD :)
01:30 TimToady you'll note, btw, that it uses considerably less memory now
01:30 diakopter TimToady: if you're available/willing/eager, a walkthrough of viv?
01:30 diakopter or just more POD?
01:30 diakopter or comments?
01:30 diakopter :)
01:32 TimToady well, have to leave for an airplane shortly, but basically $::ACTIONS tells what package to call methods in, and the AUTOLOAD is what gets the callback.  you can ignore everything else, more or less
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01:33 TimToady just cp tryfile, set $::ACTIONS, and you'll get callbacks
01:33 TimToady what you do with 'em is up to you
01:33 diakopter TimToady: thanks :) safe travels
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01:34 TimToady or use viv as a base, to get something more like AST
01:35 TimToady with nodes blessed by type
01:35 diakopter whither reduction points?
01:36 TimToady end of any rule, implicitly, plus any explicit {*} point
01:36 TimToady grep for REDUCE in any of the pmc files to see the mechanism
01:37 diakopter so when the parser reaches a {*} it assumes its current hypothesis parse is correct..?
01:37 TimToady it doesn't really assume anything much yet
01:38 TimToady if your reduction actions have side effects outside the match tree, then you could have problems if it backtracks
01:38 pugs_svn r25117 | frew++ | [t] added named arg tests for join
01:38 TimToady viv pretty much keeps the AST as element '' of the current match node though
01:40 * diakopter thinks **
01:40 frew the is export in a method sig is what makes a method become a function right?
01:41 diakopter TimToady: what's next on viv's plate
01:41 TimToady was gonna write a gimme5 replacement
01:42 diakopter emit_p5
01:42 TimToady nod
01:42 diakopter just for STD, or truly vi->v
01:43 TimToady for anything coreish that we want for a bootstrap
01:43 diakopter ohh
01:43 TimToady so eventually Cursor.pm maybe
01:43 TimToady which is why it's currently .pmc :)
01:44 frew rakudo: my @f = 1,2,3; join(',', @f);
01:44 p6eval rakudo 36153: RESULT«"1,2,3"»
01:44 diakopter so, the bootstrapped will be vivi? or vivivi? ;)
01:46 TimToady vivaldi maybe :)
01:47 TimToady but if one of the other implementations starts running STD.pm correctly, it would be unnecessary
01:50 * diakopter tinkers with lli(.exe)
01:50 diakopter thinking about toying an llvm front-end
01:50 frew Hey guys, sorry to ask again, but I don't want to miss some tests, the is export in a method sig is what makes a method become a function right?
01:51 frew and without the "is export" I don't need to add the named arg test to the function?
01:57 TimToady unless someone defines the function separately.  the is export is merely a way to alias a function sig to a method body
01:58 frew ok, so like, for example, join is not listed as is export, but I still need to add the named arg test to that right?
02:01 TimToady yes
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02:02 frew alright
02:05 pugs_svn r25118 | frew++ | [t] added named arg tests for reverse
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02:17 TimToady afk &
02:38 s1n diakopter: is rakudo still in the parrot repo? i relocated and it's still there...
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02:54 diakopter s1n: I presume someone will remove 'perl6' at some point...
02:54 diakopter but regardless, I think pmichaud renamed it 'rakudo' anyway
02:56 s1n the configure step doesn't work since pmichaud changed the language to rakudo
02:56 diakopter which configure step
02:56 s1n there's only 1 heh
02:57 s1n still looks for and makes the makefile in parrot/languages/perl6
02:57 s1n i don't know enough about parrot build tools to know how to better sever that link
02:57 diakopter Configure.pl ? and where did you get it
02:58 s1n out of the rakudo github
02:58 diakopter oh ok; just checking.
02:58 s1n i'd have to move that checkout within the languages folder
02:58 diakopter your rakudo github repo is in languages/ as 'rakudo', right?
02:59 s1n it is now
02:59 s1n it wasn't before, i was overly optimistic about the move
03:00 diakopter s1n: ah... I would suspect it will/should remain as 'rakudo'
03:02 PerlJam eventually rakudo's configure script will be smart enough to find an installed parrot or download a parrot, etc. and ask the user which parrot they want to use.
03:02 s1n PerlJam: yeah i know eventually it should be self-hoisting almost, but i'm wanting to play with it now :)
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03:40 alester I do believe I'm going to try some rakudo.org updating
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03:56 pugs_svn r25119 | frew++ | [t] added named arg tests for Lists, exists, and abs
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04:28 s1n pmichaud: ping
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05:01 pugs_svn r25120 | s1n++ | [spec] added a test for empty enums
05:07 s1n std: class A is also { method foo() { say "OH HAI" } }; my $t = A.new; $t.foo();
05:07 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:04 34m␤»
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05:50 mtnviewmark std: $a !% $b
05:51 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
05:51 mtnviewmark std: $a !* $b
05:51 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Only boolean infix operators may be negated at /tmp/6ZH6SqlSzw line 1:␤------> [32m$a !*[31m $b[0m␤00:02 33m␤»
05:51 mtnviewmark hmmmm.....
05:51 mtnviewmark wonders how % got to be boolean infix!
05:53 araujo I bet we should blame TimToady
05:53 araujo :-P
05:54 mtnviewmark I noticed that he updated the S03 to point out that !% was allowed
05:54 mtnviewmark but I didn't see how it was in STD.pm
05:59 mtnviewmark oh!
05:59 mtnviewmark token infix:sym<%> ( --> Multiplicative)
05:59 mtnviewmark { <sym> <?{ $<O><returns> = 'Bool'; }> }   # Allow !% operator
05:59 mtnviewmark special cased -- but lying about the return type of %
06:00 mtnviewmark fie- now I'm back to having to indicate which metaops can apply to which other ops...
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06:17 mtnviewmark std: $a R<= $b
06:17 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
06:17 mtnviewmark std: $a R== $b
06:17 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/IPvOnNSdJs line 1:␤------> [32m$a [31mR== $b[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    infix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤ statement modifier
06:17 p6eval ..loop␤  terminator␤00:0...
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06:23 Tene So, what's the motivation for this "reverse a binary op" metaop?
06:23 mtnviewmark so that you can pass just an operator to sort to get a sort in the other order
06:24 mtnviewmark sort &[cmp] (3, 1, 4, 5, 9)
06:24 mtnviewmark sort &[Rcmp] (3, 1, 4, 5, 9)
06:25 mtnviewmark std: 'a' Rp5=> 'b'
06:25 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
06:25 mtnviewmark std: 'a' R=> 'b'
06:25 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/9LRXxFCP5d line 1:␤------> [32m'a' [31mR=> 'b'[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    infix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤ statement modifier
06:25 p6eval ..loop␤  terminator␤00...
06:26 mtnviewmark okay - that's pretty silly!
06:26 mtnviewmark there is a restriction that R can't apply to operators that start with '='
06:26 mtnviewmark mind you -- R==, R=:=, R=== and such aren't really useful
06:27 mtnviewmark std: $a R:= $b
06:27 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
06:27 mtnviewmark okay, so the restriction on = is silly
06:50 mtnviewmark std: [&&] ($a, $b, $c)
06:50 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:02 35m␤»
06:50 mtnviewmark std: [=] ($a, $b, $c)
06:50 p6eval std 25120: OUTPUT«00:02 35m␤»
06:57 TimToady the restriction on = was not to prevent those operators from working, but to stop infix from parsing a shorter op followed by an assignop =, which it was doing for some reason.
06:57 TimToady but it looks like the fix is buggy
06:58 mtnviewmark oh - hello!
06:58 mtnviewmark just about to send a bunch of thoughts
06:58 mtnviewmark there - sent
06:59 mtnviewmark is that also why you couldn't just defined infix:sym<!%>, rather than fudge it's return type decl
06:59 mtnviewmark (and where *did* the idea for !% come from?)
07:03 TimToady I just got tired of seeing $x % 3 == 0 forever and ever
07:04 TimToady and in theory, since any value can be treated as a boolean, we can afford to relax the constraint a bit
07:04 TimToady esp now that we don't do LTM on complete metaops
07:04 mtnviewmark it is a little sad that !% reads as "not-mod"
07:04 TimToady yes, but you can think of it as no-remainder
07:05 mtnviewmark so, let's see.... $a !* $b  means ($a == 0) | ($b == 0)
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07:05 mtnviewmark and $a !+ $b means ($a == - $b)
07:06 TimToady yes, well, it's not clear how much of that we want to encourage either :)
07:06 mtnviewmark is % defined as remainder or as modulo?
07:06 Avada modulo
07:06 mtnviewmark perl: say -1 % 5
07:07 TimToady but rather than marking operators with "returns Bool" and such, I think we can mark them for whether they respond to a given metaop, like :assign
07:07 TimToady so those ops would be :not or some such
07:07 mtnviewmark :assign :negate :reduce
07:07 TimToady negate has a problem
07:07 mtnviewmark :assignable :negatable :reducable
07:07 TimToady still a problem, since -$x is a negation too
07:08 mtnviewmark perl6: say -1 % 5
07:08 p6eval pugs, rakudo 36153: OUTPUT«4␤»
07:08 p6eval ..elf 25120: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::infix__37 called at (eval 120) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 4333␤»
07:09 mtnviewmark oh - did the perl5 bot notice that pugs and rakudo gave the same output and coalesced them?
07:09 TimToady *nod*
07:09 mtnviewmark cool!
07:10 TimToady well, sometimes I wish it would just line them all up better though, but this is fewer irc lines anyway
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07:10 mtnviewmark but we are only defining the adverbs that describe the characteristics of operators --- so that -$x is a negation has nothing to do with the concept here
07:11 mtnviewmark :assign-form :negate-form :invert-form :reduce-form
07:11 pugs_svn r25121 | lwall++ | [S19] more comments
07:12 pugs_svn r25122 | lwall++ | [S02] random clarifications
07:12 mtnviewmark or :workswithmeta<assign invert reduce>
07:12 mtnviewmark though I suppose that could be just
07:12 mtnviewmark :metable<asign invert reduce>
07:12 TimToady :meta<R ! =>
07:13 mtnviewmark there ya go
07:13 TimToady but how do you spell hyper?
07:13 mtnviewmark well - some meta ops seem like they can always apply to EVERYTHING
07:14 mtnviewmark since they aren't really about the op, but about how to use the op
07:14 mtnviewmark cross and hyper seem like that
07:14 mtnviewmark (though I don't understand how X of an assignment op could work...)
07:15 TimToady yeah, and X= unfortunately parses the wrong way
07:15 mtnviewmark ($a, $b, $c) X[*=] (3, 5, 7)
07:15 TimToady [X]= is potentially useful though
07:15 mtnviewmark yes - that I understand
07:16 mtnviewmark I'm just wondering if the above is the same as
07:16 mtnviewmark ($a, $b, $c) »* 105
07:16 TimToady probably
07:16 mtnviewmark but returning some odd matrix
07:18 TimToady well, it's definitely enough rope to shoot everyone in the room's foot
07:18 mtnviewmark for that matter why put restrictions on R or ! at all? If you can get it through the parser, then why not?
07:19 mtnviewmark for example, if !op means "apply the op, then interpret the result in Boolean context, and then invert" --
07:19 mtnviewmark let it work on everything
07:20 mtnviewmark Rop seems similarly reasonably unencumberable (is that a word?)
07:20 TimToady though people may get into trouble with 1,2,3 R= @foo
07:20 mtnviewmark [cmp], does, admittedly, seem not very useful... but
07:21 mtnviewmark not to mention $a [[*=]=]= 7
07:21 TimToady well, cmp isn't associative, and we currently disallow it
07:21 mtnviewmark does [op] imply left to right order?
07:22 mtnviewmark if so, then while odd, [cmp] would have a clear meaning
07:22 TimToady and since $a cmp $b cmp $c would blow up, so should [cmp], seems like
07:23 mtnviewmark hmmmm... which leads me to realize that Xff probably is actually not workable at all -- though legal at present
07:23 mtnviewmark or... [ff]
07:23 TimToady all the thunky ones are a bit problematic
07:24 mtnviewmark well, okay, so if you do something like :meta<R ! => and such
07:24 mtnviewmark then you just need to decide if you need to declare crossable and hyperable too
07:24 TimToady maybe it'd be better to mark the ones that don't work
07:25 mtnviewmark :nometa<=>
07:25 mtnviewmark :nometa<!>
07:25 TimToady on the presumed innocent principle
07:25 mtnviewmark ah - and that would incline user defined operators to be meta'able
07:26 * mtnviewmark has no idea how to write that in English!
07:26 TimToady well, most would be anyway, if they equiv an existing operator prec
07:26 mtnviewmark or the "presumed meta'able" priniciple
07:26 mtnviewmark "presumed meatball" principle?
07:27 mtnviewmark I like :nometa  !
07:27 mtnviewmark the full set would be:
07:27 mtnviewmark :nometa<= ! R X [] «»>
07:28 mtnviewmark I suppose that isn't going to work for prefix and postfix hyper -- given how they are parsed....
07:28 TimToady mostly I want to be able to catch common errors and tell the user what they really meant to do...
07:29 TimToady I'm not too worried about unary metas
07:29 mtnviewmark no - they are just free loops!
07:30 mtnviewmark fruitloops!
07:30 TimToady well, they cost one character at least
07:30 mtnviewmark okay - see - now you can see that it is late and I'm puncy.... time for bed
07:30 TimToady I actually just arrive in Seattle...
07:30 TimToady *arrived
07:31 mtnviewmark I'm sorry - late flight!
07:31 TimToady we got in 20 min early, and then parked in the taxiway for 25 :/
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07:31 mtnviewmark funny scheduler, bizarre pipeline management
07:31 TimToady well 'night
07:31 mtnviewmark night!
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07:54 pugs_svn r25123 | lwall++ | [STD] remove fossil that targeted -=
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08:53 dduncan what's with the NFG / Normal Form G mentioned in the latest p6l post?  I don't see any mention of that in http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ ... did you mean NFC?
08:55 dduncan is it possible for all realistic combinations of diacritics and base letters to be represented by a single Unicode codepoint, including all language-dependent graphemes?
08:55 dduncan I thought NFC sort of did one codepoint per grapheme but there were a few exceptions ... I could be wrong on that point
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11:28 mberends masak: mibbit.com++
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11:38 masak mberends: yes, I should have told you earlier. :)
11:38 masak mberends: I'm here for 10 more minutes, then I'm off to town.
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11:43 mberends ah, 5 world minutes == 10 masak minutes
11:45 Matt-W well nobody was talking...
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11:56 mberends I'm @work, and sneaking some #perl6 time now and then ;) masak's Druid installation instructions work well on Debian: http://github.com/masak/druid/
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13:59 moritz_ re
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14:02 mberends Does anyone feel like trying some new Perl 6 code and giving your feedback?
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14:11 pugs_svn r25124 | moritz++ | [t] delete rest of p6regex, richard++
14:12 moritz_ mberends: yes, in a few minutes (or hours)
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14:17 finanalyst moritz_: continuing discussion about t/examples/* I suggest moving them to the perl6 wiki as problems to be solved by those who want to get involved.
14:18 finanalyst Then the t/examples/ directory can be cleaned out - psychologically good to see
14:19 moritz_ finanalyst: ok, approved
14:20 mberends There is a prototype 'perldoc' etc compatible with latest Rakudo, no known bitrot. I'm eager to get feedback. See the 'Try it out' in http://github.com/eric256/perl6-exa​mples/blob/master/lib/Pod/Makefile
14:23 moritz_ I presume Rakudo hasn't moved out of the nest yet?
14:24 mberends the whole nest moved to github, with Rakudo inside ;)
14:24 mberends afaict
14:25 moritz_ no, parrot moved to parrot.org, but stayed svn
14:26 moritz_ (at least that's what parrot.org says)
14:28 mberends is this the master or a slave? http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/master
14:30 PerlJam moritz_: rakudo flew the coup and got a new name.
14:31 PerlJam Well, it got the old name, but not in parrot
14:31 moritz_ so how do I build rakudo now? check it out in languages/rakudo of the parrot source tree?
14:32 PerlJam moritz_: yes.  I don't know if it builds right off though.  The last time I checked it was still in flux.
14:33 PerlJam mberends: with git there are only peers  :)
14:33 moritz_ well, but there can be a master-peer by convention ;-)
14:35 PerlJam github is the master-peer by convention then :)
14:40 mberends PerlJam: thanks. Is there then a git -> svn converter populating languages/perl6 at svn.parrot.org ?
14:43 PerlJam dunno.  I haven't looked at languages/perl6 since the switch.
14:43 PerlJam (I'd doubt it though)
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15:09 ruoso Hello!
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15:24 rindolf Hi ruoso
15:24 ruoso hi rindolf
15:24 Matt-W hello
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16:29 pugs_svn r25125 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] version 0.039 includes the fast STD lwall++ along with perl6.vim
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17:24 TimToady well, it's still not the "fast STD", but it's less slow...
17:24 moritz_ 22min on my machine to parse t/spec/
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17:25 [particle]1 what was it before, moritz?
17:25 moritz_ [particle]: half an eternity :/
17:25 moritz_ aka "don't remember too well"
17:25 moritz_ but I guess it was around 30 or 40 minutes
17:26 TimToady 26 minutes to do all of t/
17:26 TimToady (here)
17:26 TimToady [particle]: checked in some more comments on S19
17:27 TimToady and made some conjectural emendations, see the diff
17:27 [particle] saw them, very nice, thanks!
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17:32 rakudo_svn r36141 | fperrad++ | [codingstd] fix copyright for Makefiles
17:32 rakudo_svn r36145 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 298 files, 6609 passing, 0 failing
17:32 rakudo_svn r36149 | fperrad++ | [codingstd] fix coda of Makefiles
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17:33 pmichaud I need to go review the latest STD changes now
17:33 pmichaud well, not "now", but sometime soon.  :-)
17:34 * [particle] gets 362 failing spectests :(
17:34 moritz_ string branch fallout?
17:34 [particle] i wonder what broke...
17:35 pmichaud okay, time for lunch, then to finish up the details of the repository move.
17:36 TimToady if you make the second X in the old XopX optional, we can change the tests to Xop at some point
17:36 TimToady or I can just go ahead and break 'em all
17:37 [particle] break em
17:37 [particle] it's more important imo that the tests match the spec
17:38 pmichaud we should be able to fix the X meta pretty quickly in rakudo.
17:39 TimToady k
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17:39 [particle] nopaste?
17:39 [particle] pastebot?
17:39 [particle] feh.
17:39 moritz_ see topic
17:40 * [particle] wonders how to do that with pidgin...
17:40 moritz_ type /topic ?
17:40 moritz_ (without the question mark ;)
17:40 [particle] for some reason, i thought that didn't work with this client, but indeed it does :)
17:41 [particle] #perl6 isn't listed at sial :(
17:41 moritz_ it used to be
17:42 [particle] failing rakudo spectests: http://sial.org/pbot/34801
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17:43 pmichaud afk, lunch, errands
17:43 moritz_ pmichaud: could you please point rakudo's post-receive hook to http://timtowtdi.org:3333/ , then we should get IRC feeds here (no hurry though)
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17:46 pmichaud moritz_: done.
17:46 moritz_ pmichaud: thanks
17:46 moritz_ now we just need a push to test it ;)
17:46 pmichaud README is a good candidate :-)
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17:47 moritz_ I don't have commit access I believe :(
17:47 pmichaud yes, you do.
17:47 moritz_ ok
17:47 pmichaud assuming your github id is "moritz"
17:47 moritz_ it is ;)
17:47 moritz_ (what a coincidence)
17:48 pmichaud afk # bank, lunch, errands
17:50 moritz_ can anybody tell me how I can push changes to github? :/
17:52 pugs_svn r25126 | lwall++ | [cross-metaop.t] change XopX to Xop
17:52 * ruoso .oO( farewall $a XXX $b )
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17:53 pugs_svn r25127 | lwall++ | [STD] emit useful error on XopX
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17:58 TimToady there's still XXX
17:58 TimToady and XXXX and XXXXX
17:59 Tene_ moritz_: git push
17:59 TimToady and RXRXRX
17:59 mtnviewmark right - but you probably want to shield your face when enter those places.... :-)
17:59 TimToady add a few more metaops and we could have XERXES
18:00 moritz_ Tene_: not that simple
18:00 Tene_ moritz_: explain?
18:01 moritz_ Tene_: seems I first have to set up some remotes
18:01 Tene_ moritz_: if you cloned from the url that you can push back to, you shouldn't have to do anything.
18:01 moritz_ Tene_: and where do I get that URL?
18:02 TimToady std: $a X*X $b
18:02 Tene_ moritz_: on the project page of the project you want to commit to
18:02 p6eval std 25127: OUTPUT«############# PARSE FAILED #############␤Old form of XopX found at /tmp/TJQj2OCTxT line 1:␤------> [32m$a X*X[31m $b[0m␤00:02 33m␤»
18:02 TimToady std: $a XXXXXXXXXXXX $b
18:03 p6eval std 25127: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
18:03 TimToady for when you're feeling very cross
18:03 * mtnviewmark glaces at his chart that now needs fixing up
18:03 moritz_ Tene_: that says warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout" on cloning
18:03 Tene_ eh?
18:04 TimToady hmm, some metops distribute vertically, and some metaops distribute horizontally, chartwise
18:04 Tene_ moritz_: I'll look at it in a bit.  I'm late to get to work right now.
18:05 mtnviewmark families are vertical, types are horizontal -- with the exception that I put prefix/postfix hyper alongside,not under the four infix hypers
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18:06 TimToady just thinking about which ones are transparent to precedence
18:06 mtnviewmark and they align with their forced, or most likely, precedence levels
18:06 TimToady those are horizontal
18:06 TimToady whereas ones that force precedence are more like normal operators
18:06 mtnviewmark The new chart has a symbol to indicate which meta ops take in the precendence and assoc of the underlying op
18:07 mtnviewmark but I still put R and ! above the "intended" or rather "common" uses of it
18:07 mtnviewmark really, I would have liked to put hyper ops over the math section --- but no room
18:07 mtnviewmark there being so many hyper ops
18:07 TimToady maybe <[]> arrows on the box to indicate sideways mobility?
18:08 TimToady just an idea
18:08 mtnviewmark or "comic quotes" - that indicate an object is in motion... :-)
18:09 moritz_ damn, that git bot doesn't work
18:09 TimToady tail wagging lines :)
18:09 mtnviewmark btw, I might be induced to take up the Unicode synopsis challenge.... Unicode is one of my specialities!
18:11 mtnviewmark but.. I'm disturbed by the loose use of terms in PDD28 - in particular, NFG isn't really a normal form of Unicode - it is a method of dynamically generating new character sets (per sting!) with their own encodings....
18:11 mtnviewmark for example "An NFG string is a sequence of signed 32-bit Unicode codepoints." is not sensical: there are no 32-bit Unicode codepoints!
18:12 TimToady it's normal inside :)
18:12 mtnviewmark sure - it is a "normal form" just not of Unicode!
18:12 mtnviewmark don't get me wrong, I find the whole construction clever and useful
18:12 TimToady quasi-Unicode then
18:12 TimToady we can write the p6 synopsis differently
18:12 mtnviewmark just if I were to write it up, I'd be more rigorous about use of terms  like codepoint and Unicode and encoding
18:12 TimToady that's cool
18:13 TimToady we invented NFG because there wasn't a standard term for it :)
18:13 TimToady originally I imagined a per-process table, not per string
18:13 mtnviewmark I do worry that NFG is well defined enough... there might be strings in Unicode that may be difficult to decide what to do under NFG
18:14 mtnviewmark well - I would think that aspect would be, well, implementation dependent, yes?
18:14 TimToady well, we're not trying for language-dependent graphemes
18:15 mtnviewmark (oh, "that aspect" meant per-process vs. per-string vs. per-virtual machine, etc...)
18:15 TimToady per domain of some sort
18:15 TimToady just needs a well-defined boundary
18:15 TimToady and probably a DOS strategy
18:16 mtnviewmark (btw I spent a lot of time last Spring developing Unicode guidelines for my company.  There is a huge internal doc on it, and this small, but fun, external doc: http://wiki.secondlife.com​/wiki/Unicode_In_5_Minutes )
18:17 mtnviewmark was NFG to be based on NFC or NFKC compositions?  It isn't clear
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18:19 TimToady NFC, I think
18:19 TimToady if there's an NFC char, you always use it
18:20 TimToady s/char/codepoint
18:20 TimToady negative codepoints reserved for non-NFC mappable
18:20 mtnviewmark so, NFG wouldn't unify the Angstrom symbol with the A and small ring character
18:21 mtnviewmark makes sense - just isn't spelled out in pdd28 - it leaves it unclear
18:21 TimToady don't want to lose that kind of information
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18:21 mtnviewmark silly misclick....
18:24 TimToady we specifically are not worried about round-tripping strings that are inconsistenly NFC/NFDish
18:25 TimToady you can always work at the codepoints level pragmatically if that's what you want
18:26 TimToady but by default we're really only concerned with preserving meaning to the user
18:26 mtnviewmark can you?  If you work with a string at the grapheme level, and the revert to looking at codepoints, won't it be the case that the string will have been normalized in the process of generating the NFG form
18:26 TimToady not if you get ahold of the string before it became "no f*ing good"
18:27 TimToady code that wants to roundtrip at that level needs to control its inputs and outputs
18:27 mtnviewmark right - so conceptually, accessing a string in NFG form is mutating
18:28 TimToady depends on which definition of string you're using
18:28 mtnviewmark sure- if you want to keep the codepoint sequence in tact, DON'T access the graphemes
18:28 TimToady we can do the NFG transformation either eagerly or lazily
18:28 TimToady I think parrot chooses lazy for unicode in general
18:29 TimToady I guess the assumption is that lazy transformaion of some other character set to unicode is not supposed to be lossy, so should throw an exception
18:30 TimToady I'm more inclined to tell open to turn the input into NFG by default as soon as read in, but that's an implementation detail, at least until the exceptions start flying
18:31 TimToady the only exception NFC->NFG might throw that I can see is "I think you're trying to DOS my translation table, so forget it."
18:32 TimToady but given this is unicode we're talking about, I'm sure there will be other strange cases :)
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