Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-02-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:33 shinobi_cl i know that might be too early..
00:34 shinobi_cl but are there plans for a parrot widget library yet?
00:35 diakopter is a widget something a parrot eats?
00:36 shinobi_cl i've seen some SDL code for parrot somewhere. If parrot can digest that, probably can digest a widget too. i guess
00:45 shinobi_cl but, im not sure if it has to be done... If i make, for example, a simple library that allows to show windows, labels and buttons on perl6....
00:46 shinobi_cl That would allow any language that parrot supports to make use of it?
00:47 pugs_svn r25239 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] handle =END/=for END/=begin END correctly
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04:43 gravity rakudo's Makefile's spectest target has a minor bug. The URL for pugscode is missing the second slash after http
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10:07 samlh I was just bit by the spectest target bug myself
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14:26 masak mberends: hiya.
14:26 mberends HAI
14:26 masak :)
14:27 masak right now, my goal is simply a no-design-up-front packager that handles dependencies.
14:28 masak it's being built at exactly the right moment, because I'm planning to add my first dependency shortly.
14:28 masak and after that, more will arise.
14:28 masak for example Druid -> SVG.
14:29 masak szabgab is doing something which depends on HTML::Template. so far he's content with modding @INC at BEGIN time, so he doesn't feel the need for proto. yet. :)
14:29 szabgab I can hear you !
14:29 masak szabgab: :)
14:30 masak I don't mind.
14:30 ascent_ joined #perl6
14:30 masak szabgab: thanks for the nice emails on the november-wiki list, btw.
14:30 masak and szabgab++ for the CPAN module.
14:30 szabgab have you seen my mail ? it seems that the release to CPAN and install via CPAN.pm works
14:30 masak haven't looked at it yet, but its mere existence is really good news.
14:30 masak szabgab: will try it shortly.
14:30 szabgab yeah and Andreas fixed PAUSE so it was now indexed
14:31 masak that's good.
14:32 szabgab there are a few thing we need to formalize to make it easier for everyone else to upload modules
14:32 masak indeed.
14:32 masak I can enumerate the things I will expect of a module in proto:
14:32 szabgab one thing Ihave not touched yet is how CPAN.pm will be able to check if the prereqs of a package are met?
14:32 szabgab brb
14:32 masak 1. a Makefile.PL
14:33 masak 2. a lib/ directory (so November is currently disqualified)
14:33 masak ...and that's it.
14:34 mberends is that @INC at BEGIN time a short term hack or an official technique? Perl 5 had a reason to disallow it and force 'use lib' instead.
14:34 masak if a project wants to declare dependencies, it has to have a file 'deps.proto' in the same dir that contains the above files.
14:34 masak mberends: I don't mind it, but it only works if you don't publish stuff.
14:34 szabgab which BEGIN block do you mean ?, in which file?
14:34 masak (because the path to the thing depended on is hard-coded)
14:34 masak szabgab: I don't know, it's your trick. :)
14:35 szabgab oh you don't need that any more assuming you have PERL6LIB configured correctly
14:35 masak that's right.
14:36 masak but even setting PERL6LIB manually is a chore when you have many projects.
14:36 mberends the drawback of PERL6LIB is that your program's parent process needs to set it
14:36 masak proto will set it for you.
14:36 masak mberends: I know. it's a pity.
14:36 masak I've been thinking a lot about that in the last few days.
14:36 masak here's my current solution:
14:36 masak (not yet implemented)
14:37 szabgab I have PERL6LIB set in my .bashrc to the @INC of my perl5
14:37 szabgab actually not even that, as I am installing all my modules in a private directory
14:37 masak stop the script, print out a message to STDERR saying "hey, I need you to set these environment variables for me, here's how you do it". next time the script starts, check if they've been set. otherwise, explain again what needs to be done.
14:38 masak I plan to use this procedure for PARROT_DIR as well as PERL6LIB. it feels like a reasonable compromise between safety and convenience.
14:38 szabgab and right now I still assume PARROT_DIR point to trunk and rakudo being in languages/rakudo
14:39 masak me too. will have to look at that.
14:39 masak proto needs to be able to handle all such setups.
14:39 masak also, it needs to be able to respect that some things are checked out from github with the commit bit set.
14:40 mberends moritz and I have switched to Parrot inside Rakudo. Second option in http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/pe​rl-6/where-rakudo-lives.html
14:40 szabgab yeah it will be nice if we can easily mix installed packages with development packages from git
14:40 masak mberends: makes sense for Rakudo devs, I guess.
14:41 masak szabgab: how do you mean?
14:41 mberends also make sense for Rakudo users who are not interested in Parrot
14:41 masak aye.
14:41 szabgab masak, I dont know :-)
14:42 masak mberends: makes me wonder if I shouldn't make that installation method the default in proto...
14:42 szabgab mberends, so the rakudo in languages/rakudo limitations was lifted
14:42 mberends yes
14:43 mberends pmichaud++ made that second case possible, I do not think the two trees can be at any arbitrary locations.
14:43 masak that's my understanding too.
14:44 masak and moritz_ reported problem with 'make spectest' with his setup.
14:44 szabgab anyway I think the best might be to require a PARROT_DIR and a RAKUDO_DIR variable now
14:44 masak szabgab: aye.
14:45 szabgab yeah, so I'll update mu code accordingly
14:45 masak with the latter defaulting to $PARROT_DIR/languages/rakudo or perhaps $PARROT_DIR/..
14:46 szabgab I am not sure I want that default
14:46 masak hm, maybe not.
14:46 mberends consider how we 'git clone' each other's projects all over the filesystem, every project adds another directory to PERL6LIB. That's unaccaptable. The usual Unix remedy is symbolic directory links, and tell the Windows users to try Cygwin.
14:46 szabgab though we can be nice and guess (or actually check if either of thoes exist)
14:46 masak mberends: why unacceptable?
14:46 szabgab but on the other hand it is not that difficult for the user to configure both
14:47 masak mberends: that's exactly the problem that I want proto to solve.
14:47 masak the managing of PERL6LIB.
14:47 masak szabgab: right. perhaps just require that, then.
14:47 szabgab mberends, I don't think telling the windows users anything is will work
14:47 mberends no, it hasn't up to now.
14:48 mberends unacceptable in that scaling to hundreds of modules (just watch me) will make the design cumbersome.
14:49 mberends how about 'git clone' into a temp area and then proto moves the results to a common lib location. CPAN does that.
14:50 masak mberends: works for me. it's just not a high priority right now.
14:51 masak though I'm getting a bit bothered myself by proto's soiling its own directory. thinking of creating a directory 'projects' or whatever, and .gitignoring it.
14:51 mberends I like it enough to work on it, but not today. SVG::Tiny has a cold, I must cure that first.
14:52 masak mberends++
14:52 masak I might get back to SVG today. I have some plans.
14:52 mberends and Pod::Parser risks bitrot through lack of love
14:52 masak but November also has a cold.
14:53 mberends achoo!
14:53 masak and before that, I need to write a small essay on Chinese Literature.
14:53 mberends ok, off to work everyone, chat again later!
14:54 masak aye aye, sir!
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15:01 Nom- joined #perl6
15:03 Nom- Hi all :)
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15:07 Nom- Can anyone suggest a good guide for getting started?  I haven't kept up with perl6, but want to catch up now that we're weeks from a stable (so i hear) :)
15:08 masak Nom-: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/
15:09 masak Nom-: there have been stable releases of Parrot and Rakudo for a year and a half now.
15:11 masak s/stable releases/stable monthly releases/
15:12 masak however, the next release of Parrot will have a reasonably stable API.
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15:13 szabgab Nom-, http://szabgab.com/perl6.html
15:14 szabgab have to go now, bye
15:14 masak szabgab: see you around.
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15:21 masak Nom-: it might also be good to know that we have a number of tools here on the channel that help elucidating the current state of the implementations.
15:21 masak perl6: say "hello Perl 6!"
15:21 p6eval elf 25239, pugs, rakudo 13f677: OUTPUT«hello Perl 6!␤»
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15:22 masak that's three of our implementations replying.
15:22 masak std: class Lolipop {}; my Lolipop %hash; # a hash where the values are lolipops
15:22 p6eval std 25239: OUTPUT«00:02 33m␤»
15:23 masak Nom-: STD knows whether things are legal Perl 6 or not.
15:23 masak Nom-: using either of these tools is usually a good way to strike up a conversation on the channel, because then people see what it is you're trying to acheive.
15:26 Nom- Fair enough :)
15:26 Nom- What would you recommend to start playing with ?
15:26 masak Nom-: among the implementations? Rakudo, and possibly Pugs.
15:27 masak Nom-: http://www.parrot.org/download
15:27 masak I recommend you to use Subversion to download Parrot.
15:27 Nom- I've actually fetched the 0.9.0 binary from there... would that come with Raduko ?
15:28 masak Nom-: it does, but not the very latest one.
15:28 masak however, nothing revolutionary has happened since the 0.9.0 release, so I guess that'll do.
15:29 masak if you do want the latest Rakudo, it's on github. but it requires the latest Parrot, not just 0.9.0.
15:29 Nom- I see... should I be seeing output errors for compile problems too?
15:29 masak Nom-: I'm not sure I understand the question. yes, I think so.
15:31 Nom- hmm... i've got a simple example from that blod you linked earlier, and it's not throwing any output...
15:31 Nom- I am pretty sure it's a compile problem, but something saying that would be nice :)
15:31 masak Nom-: sounds fishy.
15:31 masak Nom-: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
15:32 masak you could paste the output here so that I can see what it is you're doing.
15:33 masak like this: http://sial.org/pbot/34936
15:33 Nom- http://sial.org/pbot/34937
15:33 masak gracias.
15:34 masak works for me.
15:34 Nom- hmm
15:34 masak might this be a Windows-related bug?
15:34 Nom- Entirely possible...
15:34 Nom- I'll build it for a real OS and see how I go :P
15:35 masak hey, anyone else on this channel run Windows? :)
15:35 masak care to confirm this bug for us?
15:35 masak I get this: http://sial.org/pbot/34938
15:36 Nom- right, which is what i'd expect
15:37 masak Nom-: at this point I would usually ask you to send the contents of your paste to rakudobug@perl.org, along with Parrot version information and a note that you're running Windows...
15:38 masak but this bug sounds very unlikely. someone else should have caught this already.
15:38 masak Nom-: there's a possibility that this is fixed in Parrot/Rakudo HEAD.
15:38 Nom- Certainly could be
15:39 Nom- I'm about to fire up a Ubuntu VM I should have lying around here... i'll try that out
15:39 masak Nom-: goodie.
15:39 masak but IMHO, it's bad enough if the latest Parrot release contains a Rakudo that doesn't print anything on Windows.
15:39 Nom- I only installed it on Windows because it was convenient :)
15:39 masak Nom-: thank you for your feedback so far.
15:39 masak it helps.
15:40 Nom- hmm i don't think I can get away with installing it on this VM... only 80MB memory free :P
15:41 masak that sounds a bit tight, yes.
15:41 Nom- It doesn't do much
15:41 Nom- Keeps my IRC idle time going, and receives email
15:41 Nom- That's about it
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15:59 Nom- 0.9.0 linux works perfectly for me
15:59 Nom- So it does appear to be Windows specific
16:00 masak Nom-: ok. if you want to, you can submit that bug report.
16:01 masak I don't know what else to do at this point.
16:01 masak I don't have Windows myself.
16:01 Nom- No probs, will do
16:01 masak Nom-++
16:02 ascent_ syntax error! =P
16:02 masak :) right, should be (Nom-)++
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16:08 Nom- Hmm... does a database toolkit exist in parrot ?
16:10 masak Nom-: there have been experiments with sqlite bindings, but last I heard they were in their early stages.
16:10 masak Nom-: a few of us are writing a wiki engine in Rakudo Perl 6, and we're using plain files as out db backend right now.
16:11 Nom- I see...
16:12 Nom- I see a couple of blog posts about DBI 2.0 being based around the JDBC standard (when it eventually gets kicked off)
16:12 Nom- I think that's a bloody good idea :)
16:13 masak Nom-: it's a bit quiet here today. usually, we have more activity on #perl6.
16:13 masak Nom-: if you want to try an application written on top of Rakudo, do check out Druid.
16:13 masak https://github.com/masak/druid/
16:17 ascent_ what about CPAN? Something new planned?
16:17 masak ascent_: yes, but that was a long time ago. you can find some documents about it in the Pugs repository.
16:17 Nom- I was wondering that... where's CPAN6 :P
16:17 masak you're not the only one asking that question.
16:18 masak it's like with the mice. they all would like that bell to be hung around the cat, but...
16:18 masak ...so far, nobody has actually gone ahead and done it.
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16:23 ascent_ masak: so what are the requirements? I'll probably can do it.
16:23 ascent_ masak: there was any longer discussion about it?
16:23 masak ascent_: kudos to you if you do it. it's a large project.
16:23 masak ascent_: I recommend reading up on that old docuement in the Pugs repo first.
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16:28 masak I think this is it: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/sixpan/
16:28 masak someone correct me if I'n wrong.
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16:31 ascent_ masak: thanks, greping pugs for cpan is a lot of... ;)
16:32 ascent_ masak: I will look into it and check if I can handle it.
16:32 ascent_ btw, what about threads in perl6?
16:35 masak ascent_: what about them?
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16:38 ascent_ masak: I found that: "they've cut STM, and I suspect other threads related features may also be on the chopping block in the interest of delivering a GA language implementation in the next 18 months"
16:38 masak indeed.
16:38 masak that sounds like what jnthn said recently.
16:39 masak I don't recall why STM was cut; I kinda liked it.
16:42 ascent_ who cut that? I think threads are very important thing and it will be more and more important in future... my quadcore like 'em :)
16:43 masak ascent_: you know, junction autothreading is still in the language.
16:43 Nom- eep... so they actually did do STM and pulled it out? :(
16:43 masak Nom-: no, I don't think so.
16:46 Nom- awww, async NYI :(
16:52 Nom- Is a Java style threading system on the books for perl6 ?
16:52 Nom- I'm very much looking forward to it, if it is
16:53 masak Nom-: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/doc​s/Perl6/Spec/S17-concurrency.pod
16:53 masak that's the latest, I think.
16:54 masak but even that should be outdated if STM was scrapped.
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17:03 Nom- Well looks like none of that is implemented in rakudo
17:03 masak right.
17:04 masak however, a lot of other good stuff is.
17:04 masak http://perlgeek.de/blog-en​/perl-6/rakudo-rocks.html :)
17:06 Nom- ooo.... perl 5.8.9 end of life :/
17:06 Nom- We're only just about to make it off 5.6 @ work!
17:06 ascent_ masak: looks like someone is doing cpan already: http://cpan6.org ;)
17:07 masak well, I'll be.
17:08 masak nice page layout. too bad about the big table, though.
17:08 * masak wonders how difficult it would be to do that the CSS way
17:09 Nom- Not difficult
17:09 Nom- CSS is never as hard as people make it out to be :P
17:10 * masak likes CSS
17:10 masak one of the few standards in the world that actually hurts less the more you lean on it. :)
17:10 Nom- I do too.... CSS and XSLT are my two best friends
17:11 Nom- If XML wasn't so painful in Perl, i'd use XSLT more :)
17:12 masak I'm not sure what you mean by XML being painful in Perl. I don't think I know of any language where it's less painful.
17:12 Nom- It's painful NOT to use it in Java and .NET
17:13 Nom- Depends how you do it, but using Object Serialization is the easiest way to do XML
17:15 masak XPath is another wonderful standard, by the way.
17:15 Nom- Absolutely
17:15 masak I'm not sure I like XSLT so much. it's a bit too verbose and ambitious.
17:16 masak a lot of the shortcomings were fixed in XSLT 2.0, with the result that the spec is no longer readable by mortals. :/
17:16 Nom- XSLT used in conjunction with object serialization in Java is the easiest way i've ever found to put a 'web interface' in front of an application
17:16 Nom- I use it all the time... have a java app spit some object out in XML format, and use XSLT to turn it into a human readable page
17:16 masak Nom-: I was a heavy Apache Cocoon user a few years back. XSLT does have its place, no doubt.
17:17 Nom- hmm i wonder if someone has made a perl 5.10 backport for Ubuntu Hardy ytet
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17:23 Nom- we've got like 1,000,000 lines of perl code which we're about to validate against Ubuntu Hardy, so if I could get Perl 5.10 for that, it's one less validation run when we go to the next LTS
17:23 masak sounds fun.
17:25 Nom- Perl 5.6.1 => Perl 5.10.0 ... I'd love to make that happen :)
17:25 dalek rakudo: 6aaec33 | (Patrick R. Michaud)++ |  (2 files):
17:25 dalek rakudo: Temporarily fix makefile construction to still work with Parrot.
17:25 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​aaec3322ad8d4e16066b0d68f127cf4978be4e1
17:33 pmichaud anyone around who can do commitbit magic?
17:46 diakopter pmichaud: me
17:46 diakopter for pugscode?
17:46 diakopter pmichaud: wait, what do you need
17:48 diakopter pmichaud: I SIGHUPed jifty on feather; commitbit.pugscode.org responds now...
17:49 pmichaud diakopter: thanks.
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17:58 pugs_svn r25240 | chrisdolan++ | Add CDOLAN to author list
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18:10 moritz_ re
18:11 dalek rakudo: fb66ff6 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | t/harness:
18:11 dalek rakudo: [t/harness] fix testing if not checked out as languages/rakudo
18:11 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​b66ff636f186a82814d3cab65ae542c45dcfd62
18:18 masak http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38430
18:20 nihiliad moritz_: re your t/harness commit: I'm sitting next to pmichaud at the Frozen Perl hackathon, and he asked me to fix the test harness so the tests will run as Perl 6 and not Perl 5.
18:20 nihiliad moritz_: Are you already working on that?
18:21 moritz_ nihiliad: "make spectest" now works as it should - does that answer your question?
18:22 pmichaud I'm thinking we should completely rewrite t/harness
18:22 moritz_ that wouldn't be bad at all
18:22 moritz_ it's historically grown, as the saying goes ;-)
18:23 moritz_ but whatever you do to the harness, please preserve its ability of parallel testing - that's increadibly useful to me
18:23 pmichaud well, currently t/harness tries to use Parrot's  Parrot::Test::Harness, which in turn does a bunch of other things important to parrot testing.
18:24 pmichaud I'm thinking we don't need Parrot::Test::Harness at all -- we should be just driving Test::Harness (from Perl 5) directly.
18:24 moritz_ aye
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18:24 pmichaud I'm also thinking that we need to put a 'parrot' symlink somewhere in the rakudo tree, so we aren't having to "guess" the version of Parrot that was used to build rakudo.
18:24 moritz_ nihiliad: sorry for stealing your task :/
18:25 s1n hey, pmichaud is back!
18:25 pmichaud well, the task of "fix current t/harness" is really different from "rewrite t/harness"  :-)
18:25 moritz_ pmichaud: remember that some platfroms don't have good symlinks
18:25 moritz_ (windows comes to mind)
18:26 Topic for #perl6is now http://pugscode.org/ http://planetsix.perl.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: perl6: say 3; (or rakudo:, pugs:, elf:, etc) | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/ | ~315 days 'til Xmas
18:26 moritz_ pmichaud: I thought about having a file  in the rakudo repo that told us which parrot revision to use...
18:26 moritz_ pmichaud: and a 'make parrot' target that updates parrot/ to that revision, and runs a 'make realclean; perl Configure.pl; make' there
18:27 nihiliad moritz_: No worries. I'm a total n00b and will do whatever pmichaud tells me to.
18:27 pmichaud moritz_: there's already a file in the rakudo repo to do this  (build/PARROTREV)
18:27 jnthn Windows sure doesn't do (good|any) symlinks...
18:27 s1n moritz_: why not just use parrot -V?
18:27 pmichaud I've thought about having a make target, but we have a chicken-and-egg problem there
18:28 pmichaud i.e., we can't really build the Makefile until we know the parrot details
18:28 moritz_ pmichaud: we can have a bootstrapping makefile that gets overridden
18:28 pmichaud either that or we have to make the Makefile smart enough to work on .... yeah, something like that
18:28 moritz_ pmichaud: or offer that only as a convenience after the first run of Configure.pl
18:29 jnthn I guess I'm missing something but - why can't the Configure script work out where Parrot is and stick that location into the Makefile?
18:29 pmichaud moritz_: yes, I've been thinking about that also.
18:29 pmichaud jnthn: that's what it does now.
18:29 pmichaud jnthn: but we also need to know the location of parrot for other things, such as t/harness
18:29 jnthn OK. Is that a problem?
18:30 jnthn So make test just invokes t/harness with --parrot /path/to/parrot ?
18:30 s1n is it too much to assume it's on the user's $PATH?
18:30 moritz_ s1n: yes
18:30 s1n too soon? i mean, it's not like they can't install it
18:30 s1n even from the repo
18:31 pmichaud "make install" doesn't work for Parrot right now.
18:31 pmichaud jnthn: we're not always doing t/harness
18:31 pmichaud sorry
18:31 pmichaud we're not always invoking perl6 from 'make'
18:31 mncharity @tell TimToady Sorry I lost sync on STD.  It turned out too costly.  Staying with it would have preempted all other elf progress.  I'll stick with rWhatever for now, and sync after bootstrap.  Perhaps piecemeal syncs before then, not sure.
18:31 lambdabot Consider it noted.
18:31 jnthn Ah, true.
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18:32 pmichaud e.g., if we run t/harness directly, or run tools/test_summary.pl -- they need to know the location of parrot
18:32 jdv79 szabgab: around?
18:32 szabgab jdv79, sorta, for a short time
18:32 jnthn Yes, it's rather burdensome to make the user pass Parrot's path whenever running those.
18:32 masak (Frozen Perl)++ # apparently, there's Rakudo hacking happening there!
18:32 masak food &
18:32 pmichaud yes, a lot.
18:33 jnthn I know it violates DRY, but Configure.pl could both put the path in the makefile and into a file, which t/harness etc can grab it from?
18:33 moritz_ well, for now Configure.pl could just write a file which contains the path to parrot
18:33 moritz_ ah, jnthn had the same idea, and typed faster than me ;-)
18:33 jdv79 you realize Perl6::Conf is not straightforward to install, right?
18:33 szabgab jdv79, what do you mean ?
18:34 * jnthn read outline of alester's talk
18:34 jnthn Sounds like we're in for a busy 2009! ;-)
18:34 szabgab for now I assumed PARROT_DIR and that rakudo is inside parrot
18:34 szabgab next version will require PARROT_DIR and RAKUDO_DIR
18:34 jdv79 yeah, that's a big piece
18:35 dalek rakudo: 3d92f3f | (Francois Perrad)++ |  (3 files):
18:35 dalek rakudo: improve .gitignore files
18:35 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​d92f3f7fea34a05540339ed08269bba3d129ae2
18:35 dalek rakudo: 37e1492 | (Francois Perrad)++ | .gitignore:
18:35 dalek rakudo: ignore *.patch
18:35 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​7e1492d185ac81ff2fd11bc9ee0c9ab29652482
18:35 pmichaud I thought about having a file with path to parrot, but I'd really like to come up with something cleaner
18:35 jdv79 can't we just use cpan versions of those so the deps can be done as usual?
18:35 pmichaud i.e., so that parrot can be run directly
18:35 szabgab jdv79, so what is the problem with Perl6::Conf installation ?
18:36 pmichaud instead of having all of the scripts read a file that says "where is parrot?"
18:36 s1n having a file with the path to parrot is no more easier or difficult than requiring parrot in their path
18:36 jdv79 its just a lot of work.  it'd be nice if it "just worked"
18:36 jnthn pmichaud: To me, it's not perfect, but seems workable for now. Depends if you want a "works" kinda solution for a "beautiful" solution. :-)
18:36 mncharity moritz_/anyone: Could comment on a strawman concept?   I'm thinking of creating a  misc/elfish/gimme_elf/  with an  elfg5  perl file.  Where elfg5 is a standalone elf (basically elfblue with inlined src/perl6/STD.pmc for parsing - so no external parser).  "Just download the one file (don't even have to svn co), install its cpan dependencies, and... instant taste of elf",
18:36 s1n i have parrot and perl6 in my repo builds already in my path to do just taht
18:36 pmichaud I need a solution that is easy to explain to others.
18:36 jnthn Nothing a lot better comes to mind rither off...
18:36 jdv79 i didn't know that rakudo moved out of languages/perl6 and to its own repo
18:37 mncharity Do you think that would excite folks?
18:37 pmichaud I can tell you that the number one problem right now at the hackathan is that people are completely unable to build parrot+rakudo and run perl6 without a _lot_ of explanation.
18:37 jnthn pmichaud: Easy to make others like, or easy to explain? ;-)
18:37 jnthn Ah.
18:37 szabgab pmichaud, I think you should remove languages/perl6 if that is not the place of rakudo any more
18:37 moritz_ mncharity: I think it's a very good idea (if it can be achieved with reasonable effort)
18:37 jdv79 pmichaud: i'm not even there and i just experienced that:(
18:38 Psyche^ joined #perl6
18:38 pmichaud szabgab: that's my intent -- we need to have a README there that says the new location and how to get the correct information
18:38 szabgab pmichaud, maybe replace with a README file that explains where ...
18:38 szabgab so I wont' finish my sentence :-)
18:38 s1n i just have scripts do the grunt work for me
18:38 jnthn Ah, sorry, gotta go now - back later.
18:38 moritz_ pmichaud: for now you can point to my blog at http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl​-6/where-rakudo-lives.writeback, or copy its information
18:38 mncharity moritz_: thanks...  anyone else?
18:38 pmichaud the problem I'm having now is everyone says "we need this" but I'm too busy answering "then let's do XYZ" and not enough time to "do XYZ"
18:38 jnthn Happy hackathoning!
18:38 s1n maybe platform specific scripts or have the configure do something more
18:38 jdv79 szabgab: plus the POD doesn't render.  it looks like p6 pod.
18:39 moritz_ pmichaud: or should I do it?
18:39 pmichaud moritz_: yes, I saw the blog post -- excellent.
18:39 pmichaud moritz_: please do it.
18:39 pmichaud anything that anyone can do such that I don't have to do it will save us all a ton of time.  :-|
18:39 szabgab jdv79, well, yes it is p6 pod,
18:39 pmichaud right now I'm thrashing on "answering questions" and not getting any useful work done.
18:39 pmichaud (not that answering questions isn't useful... :-)
18:39 szabgab I don't understand what did you expect from the AFAIK first real Perl 6 module on CPAN ?
18:40 s1n what does the Configure.pl script do now anyways?
18:40 szabgab pmichaud, that's the sign of success
18:40 jdv79 nothing much really.  i was hoping to be able to show it off but its not ready.
18:41 s1n it sounds like the job of the configure script to try and locate parrot
18:41 jdv79 nice work though
18:41 s1n at the very least, it could look in ../../, then in $PATH, then fall back on something else
18:42 pmichaud s1n: looking in $PATH isn't very useful at the moment.
18:42 pmichaud currently Configure.pl looks at ../.. and parrot/
18:42 pmichaud but a lot of the scripts and modules all assume ../..
18:42 s1n it's better than nothing
18:42 pmichaud and so we have to get them to not do that.
18:42 szabgab jdv79, when you setup CPAN.pm do you need to answer a few questions ?
18:42 pugs_svn r25241 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] allow non-keyword characters in the argument to =config
18:42 szabgab has anyone here managed to install the Perl6::Conf module using CPAN.pm ?
18:43 s1n just because parrot doesn't install properly, doesn't mean we can't add it to our path
18:43 jdv79 szabgab: it just broke cause of the PARROT_DIR req not working out
18:43 s1n i do that (export PATH=~/sandbox/parrot/:$PATH) already in my bashrc, maybe we can start making some assumptions to common setups
18:43 s1n at least until parrot installs correctly
18:44 szabgab what do you mean not working out? you have not set it up or you set it up but it still could not install ?
18:44 s1n otherwise, you're writing a file the user has to modify to signal where to find parrot
18:44 pmichaud but the Configure.pl step can create that file
18:44 jdv79 i didn't retry with CPAN.pm.  after i setup PARROT_DIR i did it by hand.
18:44 pmichaud ooooh, maybe  parrot.pl ?  ;-)
18:44 s1n and how is it going to create it? will it guess at parrot's location?
18:44 jdv79 szabgab: broke meaning the install failed.
18:45 pmichaud but that sounds pretty awful also, I guess.
18:45 s1n all solutions will suck until parrot correctly installs
18:45 szabgab jdv79, sure, there are tons of Perl5 modules with external dependencies that fail to install unless you configure that external dependency
18:45 s1n we can either start guessing where it will be, i.e. for common paths
18:46 s1n or we make the user tell us
18:46 pmichaud even when parrot correctly installs, we still have to have a way to indicate the location of parrot
18:46 s1n no you don't
18:46 s1n how do i know where gcc is?
18:46 s1n my path
18:46 jdv79 szabgab: no doubt.  but there is a parrot cpan dist.  my question is can that be used.
18:46 pmichaud that's different
18:46 pmichaud you only need gcc to build, not to execute
18:46 pmichaud in rakudo's case, we need parrot both to build _and_ execute
18:46 s1n what about bash?
18:47 pmichaud what about bash?
18:47 s1n i think it's implied that it _has_ to be on your path
18:47 s1n i need bash to execute things, it's in my path, so i don't have to say /bin/bash (crappy example, i know)
18:47 pmichaud it's implied that parrot has to be in one's path?  I'm not sure that's a reasonable assumption at the moment.
18:47 s1n not right now it's not
18:47 s1n but eventually
18:47 mncharity :/
18:48 s1n until then we can only guess or make the user tell us
18:48 s1n %perl Configure.pl --parrot /path/to/parrot
18:48 pmichaud s1n:  I already have that.
18:48 s1n or something else equally stupid
18:48 pmichaud you're solving the wrong problem.
18:48 s1n great, that's about as good as it'll get for now
18:48 s1n what's the problem? lol
18:48 szabgab jdv79, AFAIK not yet as it does not really install
18:48 pmichaud or, more precisely, that's not currently sufficient
18:49 s1n care to elaborate?
18:49 pmichaud knowing the path to parrot is fine at build time -- I can do that.
18:49 szabgab as I can see the other chats they are just discussing this
18:49 pmichaud but after perl6.pbc is built, how do we invoke it?
18:49 jdv79 szabgab: i have a /usr/local/bin/parrot.  it seems to not fetch and build rakudo though.
18:49 s1n why not use it to just build the perl6 executable?
18:49 pmichaud you mean the fakecutable?
18:50 pmichaud because the perl6 executable often segfaults improperly.
18:50 s1n otherwise, you'll need a goofy path hack, file that specifies the path that is loaded, or something else
18:50 rakudo_svn r36451 | moritz++ | [rakudo] Rakudo left the nest - so remove most of languages/perl6/ and change
18:50 rakudo_svn r36451 | moritz++ | the README accordingly.
18:50 szabgab jdv79, once there is a perl6 or rakudo executable in your PATH the installation can be straight forward
18:50 s1n okay, then Parrot.pm defines it?
18:50 s1n then all the scripts use Parrot.pm, which defines the configured parrot info
18:50 szabgab till then we have to figure out the other things, eg. to had the pods look good
18:50 pmichaud I agree, the alternative is a goofy path hack.  I'm not liking any of the solutions currently at our disposal, no.
18:51 s1n and we could generate a script that looks like perl6 that launches parrot from Parrot.pm
18:51 jdv79 szabgab: you mean getting search.cpan.org to use a 6 POD lib?
18:51 pmichaud "generate a script"  -- how does that work under Windows?
18:51 jdv79 s/6/p6/
18:51 s1n that would have to be platform specific
18:51 szabgab jdv79, I am sending and e-mail to Graham now
18:51 pmichaud even platform specific -- how does that work under Windows?
18:51 pmichaud you mean a perl6.bat ?
18:52 s1n or better yet, perl6.p6 :)
18:52 szabgab is there a perl6 pod parser written in perl 5 ?
18:52 moritz_ szabgab: yes, Damian wrote one
18:52 s1n perl6.p6 loads Parrot.pm, which defines parrot's location, executes it with the pbc
18:52 pmichaud szabgab: Damian had one at one time, but I don't know that it was ever released.
18:52 moritz_ it's on CPAN
18:52 pmichaud maybe we just should create a perl6 "executable" in C that does the work.
18:53 pmichaud i.e., not the fakecutable approach -- something that just turns around and calls exec()
18:53 s1n naw, i like a perl6 script that executes the pbc :)
18:53 s1n could do that, but that sounds like a p.i.t.a.
18:53 pmichaud all of the answers seem like a p.i.t.a at the moment.
18:53 szabgab Perl6::Perldoc::Parser  thanks
18:53 s1n i actually think i like the idea of the perl6.p6 script that does the exec :)
18:53 pmichaud I don't.
18:54 s1n heh
18:54 pmichaud for one, that script can't be .p6
18:54 s1n well true
18:54 s1n at least perl5
18:54 pmichaud so then running perl6 would mean that we start by invoking p5?
18:54 pmichaud that seems like it'll get even more confusing.
18:55 s1n is there anything else that equates to something less than a pita?
18:56 pmichaud if there were an obvious simple solution it probably would've already been done.
18:56 s1n Parrot.pm is generated with parrot environment settings, perl6.pl (which is in the repo) loads Parrot.pm and does it's magic. all the scripts can then safely use Parrot.pm directly or through perl6.pl...
18:56 s1n true, so we just need to find one that works until we can safely assume parrot is available already, right?
18:57 pmichaud "one that works" -- depends on the definition of "work"
18:57 s1n imho works means it requires the least work for a developer/user to get started
18:57 pmichaud it's not that we're choosing between one solution that works and many that don't -- it's that each solution has some downsides that aren't obvious
18:57 s1n if it's a pita for us, so be it
18:58 pmichaud I don't think perl6.pl is the answer I'm looking for.
18:58 pmichaud I think I'd rather go with the fakecutable approach.  It's more along the lines of what people will expect.
18:58 s1n how will you create that fakexcutable?
18:58 s1n will it need to be compiled somehow?
18:59 pmichaud we currently do it with "make perl6"
18:59 s1n please tell me that won't introduce automake
18:59 s1n oh
18:59 s1n so just require the perl6 target to be executed?
18:59 s1n i mean, that does a pbc_to_exe, which is problematic
19:00 pmichaud why is that problematic?
19:00 rakudo_svn r36453 | moritz++ | [rakudo] remove a left over perl6.pir file
19:01 s1n i thought you said it crashes intermitently and is kinda buggy
19:01 moritz_ it worked quite stable for me most of the time
19:02 pmichaud yes, but I see the perl6.pl as introducing a different set of issues.
19:02 legis left #perl6
19:02 pmichaud and yes, it's stable "most of the time"
19:02 pmichaud maybe if it's a little intermittent we'll be pushed to get things fixed :-)
19:02 pmichaud but it's certainly far easier to say "perl6 ... "  than anything else.
19:02 s1n how can the egg hatch itself without knowing about the chicken... hmmm
19:03 s1n pmichaud: yes, it is, and that's why it's in my path :)
19:03 pmichaud I vote for the fakecutable approach.
19:03 s1n so don't change anything?
19:03 pmichaud well, we still need to fixup the harness
19:04 pmichaud and we should change the default Makefile target to build the fakecutable
19:04 s1n i use the pbc right now, the perl6 segfault spews all kinds of crap
19:04 moritz_ currently 'make spectest' works for me.
19:04 pmichaud as long as 'make spectest' works with the fakecutable i'm reasonably okay with that approach.
19:05 pmichaud I've also decided that I no longer want Parrot to be building Rakudo's Makefile
19:05 s1n good decision
19:05 pmichaud i.e., the "reconfigure.pl" approach.
19:05 pmichaud (i.e., don't use Parrot's 'reconfigure.pl')
19:06 s1n pmichaud: are you at a hackathon right now?
19:06 pmichaud yes.
19:06 cognominal maddingue++
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19:24 pugs_svn r25242 | putter++ | [gimme_elf] Created.  A *very* easy to install, standalone, elfblue variant.  To create interest in elf.
19:24 pugs_svn r25242 | putter++ | Sketched in README and Makefile.
19:25 mncharity moritz_: Thanks for the encouragement. :)
19:25 mncharity hmm, that commit should have been moritz_++.  Wouldn't have happened without it.
19:25 mncharity g'day all &
19:26 moritz_ @tell mncharity now you have to blog about gimme_elf, otherwise the interest won't leave #perl6
19:26 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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19:45 pugs_svn r25243 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] ensure proper nesting of angles inside Pod formatting codes
19:45 pugs_svn r25244 | hinrik++ | [S26] clarify the entry on E<> in the summary
19:46 pugs_svn r25245 | hinrik++ | [util/perl6.vim] update timestamp
19:50 pugs_svn r25246 | moritz++ | [irclog] point r\d+ on #parrot to parrot's trac installation
19:52 dalek rakudo: 46f5a49 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | Configure.pl:
19:52 dalek rakudo: Apply coding style fix by Fran�ois Perrad, fperrad++
19:52 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​6f5a490f24f4977b29acd6cc4303b3e8a977e8f
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20:05 chrisdolan I want to write a test for RT#62898, but I'm not sure where to put it.  Advice?
20:07 dalek rakudo: cb3422f | (Moritz Lenz)++ | .gitignore:
20:07 dalek rakudo: .gitignore `perl6'
20:07 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​b3422fdef15f9a53892a5457475cd76969e419f
20:07 chrisdolan I don't think it's specced behavior, it's just implicit.  Does it go in t/spectests or just t/?
20:07 moritz_ chrisdolan: into t/spec/ for sure
20:08 moritz_ it's implicitly specced by basic sanity, and by "everything that's not specced works like in p5"
20:08 chrisdolan makes sense
20:08 moritz_ chrisdolan: maybe add it to t/spec/S12-class/basic.t
20:08 chrisdolan Cool, thanks
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20:10 moritz_ chrisdolan: do you know how I can easily pull your patch for that issue into the official rakudo tree?
20:10 chrisdolan I'm just learning git today...  Let me ask here at the hackathon
20:11 riffraff joined #perl6
20:11 s1n so is pmichaud _the_ admin for the git repo now, or has he issued rights to someone else?
20:11 moritz_ chrisdolan: the patch you submitted contains spurious linebreaks
20:12 chrisdolan Yeah, that was my email client, sorry.  I should have done it as an attachment.  Let me research the git solution
20:12 moritz_ chrisdolan: one way is `git format-patch origin', but it's not the solutions I'm looking for ;-)
20:13 dalek rakudo: 71179f1 | (Patrick R. Michaud)++ |  (5 files):
20:13 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
20:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​1179f123795f536a6af8a77a825c9d1c08afd83
20:13 moritz_ s1n: I don't know - I don't think I can add new committers, but I can push changes for sure
20:14 chrisdolan moritz_: OK, I just used the github.com "pull request" feature to send it to you
20:14 pmichaud so far I'm the admin for the git repo, yes.
20:14 moritz_ chrisdolan: thanks, got the message - but it doesn't contain instructions on how to pull :(
20:14 pmichaud I've generally granted push rights to those who were parrot committers
20:15 chrisdolan moritz_: Hrm...
20:15 moritz_ pmichaud: you seem to have missed fperrad (unless you added him in the last 30 minutes)
20:15 pmichaud probably so.  I wasn't trying to be exhaustive
20:16 s1n what's the review process now to get push access?
20:16 pmichaud basically "if you're already a parrot committer, I'll add w/o question when needed"
20:16 s1n what about those who weren't parrot committers...
20:16 moritz_ chrisdolan: ah, `git-pull git://github.com/chrisdolan/rakudo.git master' seems to work
20:16 pmichaud I have to have some discussions with TPF and the like to see about committer access
20:17 chrisdolan moritz_: No, the patch isn't in my master branch.  I made a branch called "package-redeclaration" for this
20:17 s1n that would be great, i'd like to know what it would take for me to get access
20:17 pmichaud we may still want to have the contributor license agreements in place
20:18 chrisdolan moritz_: so maybe it's just s/master/package-redeclaration/ from your previous command
20:18 moritz_ chrisdolan: I'll try that
20:19 moritz_ chrisdolan: ah, that seems to really work, at least git-log shows your commit plus a merge commit
20:20 moritz_ which is the git way of doing it, if I understand it correctly
20:20 chrisdolan sweet
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20:24 moritz_ rakudo: eval q[BEGIN {class Foo::Bar::Baz {}}; class Foo::Bar {}]; say "alive"; say $! if $!;
20:24 p6eval rakudo 6aaec3: OUTPUT«No arguments found to dispatch on␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Role;!select' pc 2689 (src/classes/Role.pir:108)␤»
20:24 moritz_ rakudo: eval q[BEGIN {class Foo::Bar::Baz {}}; class Foo::Bar {}]; say "alive";
20:24 p6eval rakudo 6aaec3: OUTPUT«No arguments found to dispatch on␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Role;!select' pc 2689 (src/classes/Role.pir:108)␤»
20:25 s1n is that revision the last 6 bytes of the index hash?
20:25 moritz_ chrisdolan: you could add that (with eval_lives_ok instead of eval) to S12-class/basic.t
20:25 moritz_ s1n: it's the first 6 bytes of git-log | head -n 1
20:25 moritz_ s1n: I don't know if that makes any sense :/
20:28 s1n moritz_: yeah sorta, git hashes still don't indicate timeline or anything, so it's as much sense as a sha1 hash can make
20:29 pugs_svn r25247 | chrisdolan++ | Add test for the class portion of:
20:29 pugs_svn r25247 | chrisdolan++ | RT#62898: Rakudo can't handle A declared after A::B was declared in an included module
20:30 chrisdolan Could someone commit the patch from http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Publi​c/Bug/Display.html?id=60164?
20:30 chrisdolan I got approval from pmichaud
20:30 moritz_ chrisdolan: I'm running a 'make spectest' now. If all passes, I'll push.
20:30 chrisdolan moritz_: still adding more tests...
20:33 moritz_ chrisdolan: ok, pushed. Many thanks.
20:34 dalek rakudo: 2c026f7 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | src/parser/ (2 files):
20:34 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'package-redeclaration' of git://github.com/chrisdolan/rakudo
20:34 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​c026f71ea4e5ef8fc22104983db7b5783da0e20
20:34 dalek rakudo: 1861489 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | .gitignore:
20:34 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
20:34 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​861489b0c22c4aa60a8aeed117ded71a18b2f00
20:35 moritz_ chrisdolan++ # since it's nowhere in the commit message
20:37 pugs_svn r25248 | chrisdolan++ | A more specific test for RT#62898
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21:23 dalek rakudo: 577566e | (Patrick R. Michaud)++ |  (2 files):
21:23 dalek rakudo: More fixes to Configure.pl and makefiles
21:23 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​77566ed8620a263d5a77218f22463749350f25f
21:23 dalek rakudo: 7ab01c5 | (Patrick R. Michaud)++ |  (2 files):
21:23 dalek rakudo: Change Configure.pl to use build/Makefile.in.
21:23 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​ab01c54c744cea1d844fd7c47c8bcaf8c6fc109
21:27 moritz_ I'm starting to like the way git works
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21:41 chrisdolan The rakudo portion of the frozen perl hackathon is breaking up now.
21:42 chrisdolan Thanks, moritz
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23:58 pugs_svn r25249 | particle++ | [S19] various minor updates and removal of stale comments

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