Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-02-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 shinobi-cl left #perl6
00:07 wayland hi
00:08 skids OK, so if I have the STD stuff working, how does one usefully get it to show you something other than "ok" or not ok?  Like a syntax tree, maybe?  I see Dump via YAML but have no clue what to jam in there.
00:10 * skids only ever gets a few -'s and a ~
00:11 * wayland offers skids a #, a %, and a |
00:30 wayland (btw, I don't know the answer to your questions, skids)
00:30 gravity joined #perl6
00:34 skids wayland: don't worry I wasn't trying to feed YAML::Syck::Dump a bunch of #'s %'s and |'s
00:38 zophy joined #perl6
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00:49 wayland just as well :)
00:51 zophy joined #perl6
01:02 pugs_svn r25486 | wayland++ | Added something to generate HTML for the S32 libs
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01:40 skids wayland: is there a way to put unrendered-but-named tags in the SXX HTML via a pod directive?  The line numbers are handy but I might want to go through and give some of those important paragraphs anchors.
01:40 skids (for linking to from the WITCH)
01:58 dukeleto perl6: say (-1)**(1/2)
01:58 p6eval pugs, rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
01:58 p6eval ..elf 25486: OUTPUT«nan␤»
02:00 wayland Not that I know of, but I'm no big expert on the whole thing.  If moritz turns up, he might know.
02:00 dukeleto perl6: say (-1)**(1/2.0)
02:00 p6eval pugs, rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
02:00 p6eval ..elf 25486: OUTPUT«nan␤»
02:06 dukeleto perl6: say (-1+0i)**(1/2)
02:06 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«1␤»
02:06 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«6.123031769111886e-17 + 1i␤»
02:06 p6eval ..elf 25486: OUTPUT«nan␤»
02:22 pugs_svn r25487 | putter++ | [elfparse] Start porting EXPR to elf.
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03:07 pugs_svn r25488 | wayland++ | Moved stuff from S16-io to S32-setting-library/IO
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03:30 pugs_svn r25489 | wayland++ | Did some updates, and added a uri() method
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03:47 pugs_svn r25490 | wayland++ | Created the draft spec here.  It's very drafty, but no more than some.
03:47 pugs_svn r25490 | wayland++ |
03:47 pugs_svn r25490 | wayland++ | Also added the $*DEFIN, etc, as per S16.
03:47 s1n wayland: man, you are very active on the mailing list!
03:48 s1n i'm looking at my inbox an almost every one of my unread list emails you have participated in :)
03:50 wayland Yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm writing the specs, thus my need for frequent guidance :)
03:51 wayland Actually, I know how to rework a document quite well, I just don't know enough perl6
03:51 wayland Also, I've had commit conflicts before, so I commit early, commit often :)
03:53 s1n wayland: i've almost had to stop reading the ml, there's just too much for me to even try to comprehend
03:53 s1n 10 threads a week is about all i can earnestly digest, it's like 10 a day now
03:54 wayland Well, my recommendation is that DateTime has Dave Rolsky on it now, and I'm just going to trust him to do the right thing :)
03:54 wayland Which eliminates more than half the e-mail that I picked up this morning after the weekend.
03:55 s1n well, i've had to start just focusing on topics that interest me
03:55 wayland Another problem is that in the middle of the day, there aren't so many people on IRC to answer my questions, so I tend to go for the mailing list
03:55 s1n because there's too much activity to try and comprehend everything
03:55 wayland Hopefully it will cool off soon when the specs are a bit more sorted out
03:55 s1n i'm not complaining, it means good work is being done
03:55 s1n just an observation
03:55 alester in the spectests, what are the .rakduo and .t files?  How do they differ?
03:56 s1n alester: the .t files are the official unmodified files
03:56 alester huh
03:56 s1n the .<impl> files are the fudged files for a specific implementation
03:56 wayland My understanding is that the spectests are for *all* variants of perl6
03:56 s1n alester: ever notice the #?rakudo comments? those are skipped (fudged out) for rakudo
03:56 wayland not just rakudo; the .t files are for real perl6, the others are as s1n says
03:57 wayland (ie. the .t files should work on rakudo, pugs, elf, smop/mildew/whatever)
03:57 alester Eventually the .rakudo files will disappear as their corresponding .t passes.
03:57 s1n wayland: that's what i said, .t are the official unmodified files, .<impl> are the fudged implementation specific files
03:57 alester is what I'm assuming
03:57 s1n alester: that is, let's say there's a bug in rakudo or a missing feature, it'll be fudged out for the time being
03:57 alester right.
03:58 alester and eventually the .rakudo files will fall away
03:58 wayland s1n: I agree -- I just thought a different perspective might shed some additional light :)
03:58 s1n alester: that's correct, a complete implementation will not fudge the spec and will pass all tests
03:58 alester so the harness runs the .rakudo instead of the .t if there is one?
03:58 s1n not if there is one, if it needs to be fudged
03:59 alester also, s1n, why aren't your commits getting folded back to the main?  Your commits in my FQ are huge.
03:59 s1n that is, if during processing it finds that fudging is needed, the .<impl> is creating and ran instead
03:59 s1n alester: that's a good question :) i've been pestering jnthn and pmichaud all week
04:00 s1n i have ranges working very nicely now and only sort of got jnthn's attention earlier, but i had to make some changes and had trouble with git
04:00 s1n had to do a fast-forward because i modified Makefile.in and it was a pain in the but
04:01 s1n that is, you can do the same by doing a git pull --rebase upstream master, then git pull --rebase origin rt_work (if you have my fork cloned)...
04:02 s1n it was a pita managing that fork, i think i might have to hose it and start over if it's going to be that much dang work merging with git
04:02 s1n alester: btw, what's FQ?
04:02 alester Fork queue
04:02 s1n how big are they?
04:02 s1n should be in mostly Range.pir and Range.pm (few other really small patches)
04:06 alester Dunno
04:07 alester Crud, who's in charge of pugscode.org?
04:08 wayland Dunno, but that's the sort of question I put to moritz_
04:08 alester 'cause I don't know my pw on it.
04:08 s1n alester: lemme see if i can help
04:09 alester ok
04:09 s1n alester: wait, which sub-site? pugs repo itself?
04:09 alester y
04:10 alester http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs
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04:11 s1n alester: i'm trying to remember the login page address...
04:13 s1n alester: http://commitbit.pugscode.org?
04:13 alester yeah, it's not responding
04:13 s1n oops, s/\?/ \?/
04:14 s1n ahh, yeah, looks like it's not, i think i have feather access but i've never used it
04:15 s1n i'm gonna go to bed
04:16 s1n alester: if you want that FQ cleared up, pester jnthn and pmichaud (like how i just name dropped them so their IRC client will pester them)   :)
04:17 alester I don't care particularly.  Just wondering.
04:17 s1n i know, just trying to get their attention :)
04:18 s1n bed&
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06:15 wayland Hi all :)
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06:51 cspencer_ is anyone familiar with generating patches from git? :)  i'm having no end of troubles in getting my patch pulled together
07:05 dukeleto have you tried git format-patch ?
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07:11 cspencer_ should that generate the patch without any additional arguments provided?
07:15 dukeleto cspencer: it generates a different patch for each commit by default, but it has a bajillion setting to customize that
07:17 cspencer_ hmmmm...it's not producing any output for me, though i've got two modified files and one new one that i added
07:17 cspencer_ i must have done something to my local repo
07:18 cspencer_ i'll figure it out tomorrow :)
07:41 pugs_svn r25491 | leto++ | Add test for (-1+0i)**(1/2)
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08:07 pugs_svn r25492 | leto++ | Various exp(x) tests
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08:26 pugs_svn r25493 | leto++ | Various sqrt(x) tests
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08:31 pugs_svn r25494 | leto++ | Tests for abs(x) with Inf and NaN
08:32 moritz_ rakudo: say (1..3).perl
08:32 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«1..3␤»
08:33 moritz_ s1n: re your git pull request - you add class Range to settings with new functionality, but don't remove the old one in PIR, and you don't add it to Makefile.in (I'm looking at 3cfc0f2514f0e60dfdf148050f899a21c834cf27)
08:41 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $x = 3; method get { say $x }}; A.new.get(); A.new(x => 5).get();
08:41 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«3␤5␤»
08:42 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $x = 3; method get { say $x }}; A.new.get(); A.new(x => 5).get(); say A.x;
08:42 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«3␤5␤Could not locate a method 'x' to invoke on class 'A'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16659 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
08:43 pugs_svn r25495 | wayland++ | More S28 updates, including turning things into references to elsewhere, and better
08:43 pugs_svn r25495 | wayland++ | documenting the standard/default IO handles.
08:44 ejs joined #perl6
08:44 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $x = 3; method get { say $x }}; A.new.get(); A.new(x => 5).get(); say A.x
08:44 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«3␤5␤Could not locate a method 'x' to invoke on class 'A'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16659 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
08:44 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $x = 3; method get { say $!x }}; A.new.get();
08:44 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«3␤»
08:50 Matt-W Morning
08:51 moritz_ good morning
08:52 Matt-W I have a plan for how to tackle Form.pm
08:52 Matt-W Now I just need the time in which to write some code
08:52 pugs_svn r25496 | wayland++ | Fixed a few things based on advice from chrisdolan++
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08:53 dukeleto how would I import the Inf and NaN symbols into src/builtins/any-num.pir ?
08:53 * araujo wonders what the '!' means in '$!x'
08:54 masak joined #perl6
08:54 moritz_ araujo: it means "private attribute"
08:55 araujo moritz_, aah ... mmm.. interesting ... I guess the 'has' defines it as such?
08:55 masak araujo: it defines it as an attribute.
08:55 masak an instance attribute, even.
08:56 Matt-W has $!x is a private one, has $.x is public
08:56 masak but the '!' defines it as private.
08:56 masak araujo: what Matt-W said.
08:56 araujo aaah
08:56 krunen joined #perl6
08:56 araujo Thanks all :)
08:57 Matt-W well, actually $.x just has auto-generated setter/getter accessor, rather than being exposed as itself...
08:57 masak right.
08:57 masak but it still makes sense to call it a 'public attribute'.
08:57 wayland moritz_: How do I debug feather/script/update-syn ?
08:58 Matt-W yes, but I'm feeling moderately pedantic this morning
08:58 moritz_ wayland: with patience :/
08:58 wayland I added a new html-building line and it created the location http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/ but didn't put any files in it
08:58 bacek good evening
08:58 wayland And I don't have any output or anything :)
08:58 wayland Ah, an evening to be good on :)
08:58 moritz_ wayland: do you know which user runs that script  on feather?
08:59 wayland not off the top of my head, but I'd guess agentzh :)
08:59 moritz_ do you have root privs?
08:59 wayland Not that I know of :)
08:59 wayland (probably not :) )
08:59 moritz_ what's your user name?
08:59 wayland I don't even know whether I can log in
08:59 wayland wayland, I think
09:00 wayland that's my SVN id, anyway
09:00 moritz_ there's no /home/wayland on feather
09:00 wayland Ok
09:00 moritz_ wayland: contact juerd to give you a new account - instructions are on feather.perl6.nl
09:01 wayland ok, will do
09:01 moritz_ wayland: and then I can add you to sudoers.conf so that you can su - agentzh and run the script yourself, and see what it does
09:01 wayland sounds good to me (unless someone else wants to do it for me :) )
09:02 agentzh oh...sorry for putting that script under my home...
09:03 moritz_ araujo: no problem, it has to run under some user
09:03 pugs_svn r25497 | leto++ | Tests for sign(x) with Inf and NaN
09:03 moritz_ erm, I meant agentzh
09:03 abra joined #perl6
09:03 * agentzh goes back to $work.
09:13 * wayland lambdabot @tell TimToady What would you think of the idea of moving all the special variable stuff from S02 to S28?
09:14 wayland Whoops, confused /me with /msg
09:14 * wayland is embarrased :)
09:14 moritz_ m<tab> is a bad idea in here anyway
09:16 wayland My client refuses to tab unless there's a unique hit
09:16 Matt-W mine cycles through
09:17 Matt-W but doesn't indicate it's a non-unique result
09:17 Matt-W you have to figure that out for yourself
09:17 wayland Ouch :)
09:17 Matt-W so I've done that wrong a few times
09:17 moritz_ wayland: that's actually a good idea for such crowded channels as here
09:17 wayland Actually, correction, mine does a drop-down list
09:17 Matt-W at least when I do m<tab> it puts me as the final alternative so I don't start talking to myself :)
09:18 wayland It was Xchat, from my last computer, that didn't complete unless unique
09:18 wayland Well, someone (Dumbledore?  Gandalf?) said that they often talked to themselves, and that it came from their old habit of always addressing the wisest person present :)
09:19 moritz_ that sounds more like Gandalf, not Dumbledore
09:20 wayland It does, but now that I think about it, I have a feeling it wasn't Gandalf
09:20 wayland Maybe some other book
09:20 moritz_ but I think I also dimly remeber a quote like this
09:20 moritz_ but I've read lots of fantasy, and sometimes mix up the different books :/
09:21 Matt-W don't think that was Dumbledore
09:21 wayland Hmm.  Google may be about to help me :)
09:21 Matt-W although he did have a few moments of complete immodesty
09:22 Matt-W I do seem to recall that he once told Harry he was rather cleverer than most people and therefore did indeed understand a great deal
09:23 wayland Someone in a forum attributes this to Gandalf: "A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to"
09:23 wayland Matt-W: I suspect most people on this channel are rather cleverer than most people :)
09:24 pugs_svn r25498 | leto++ | Various tests for Trig functions relating to Inf and NaN
09:24 Matt-W wayland: It seems to be the case
09:24 Matt-W wayland: certainly several people in this channel are rather cleverer than me...
09:24 wayland And cleverer than me, and I'm above average
09:25 wayland So the quuestion is, is Dumbledore being inherently immodest, or does the truth compel him in this case?
09:25 wayland A book on Google Books cites the Gandalf quote as being "2:127", so it must be LOTR
09:27 Matt-W It would be a fairly Gandalfy sort of thing to say
09:27 Matt-W A bit like a wizard never being late
09:28 moritz_ Matt-W: I think that only appears in the movie
09:29 wayland I disagree with a lot of things in the movie, but that one always sounded very Gandalfy to me :)
09:29 Matt-W moritz_: ah k. It's a good line, anyway
09:31 wayland moritz_: Is there anything special that needs to be done to rename files in SVN?
09:31 moritz_ wayland: svn mv from to
09:31 wayland Or do we just move the file, then svn delete/svn add?
09:31 wayland Oh, ok, thanks :)
09:33 pugs_svn r25499 | wayland++ | Moved String.pod to Str.pod
09:55 szabgab anyone knows why I cannot fetch the git repository of rakudo ?  after some cloning I get:
09:55 szabgab error: Unable to find ab75eb126432d1b91188073d637782b15f1a6f9e under http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git
09:59 moritz_ szabgab: don't use the http:// protocol
09:59 moritz_ szabgab: use git:// instead
10:00 szabgab git clone git://github.com/rakudo/rakudo.git
10:05 DemoFreak joined #perl6
10:05 szabgab moritz_, that worked, thanks
10:05 elmex joined #perl6
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10:08 masak I look forward to the day when I can just update all my downloaded Perl 6 projects through proto.
10:09 masak not too far away, I think.
10:19 szabgab I just notice there is a perl6 executable!
10:20 szabgab can I now remove my small shell script and use this?
10:20 masak szabgab: sorry, what do you mean?
10:21 szabgab rakudo/perl6
10:21 wayland szabgab: Yes, that's right :)
10:21 wayland If it's in your path
10:21 szabgab I used to have a stupid shell script called perl6
10:21 * masak doesn't prefer the perl6 executable for various reasons
10:21 szabgab running parrot perl6.pbc
10:21 wayland It's been there for quite a while
10:22 masak since Christmas 2007, I believe.
10:22 szabgab wow, I have not noticed it earlier when I built rakudo
10:22 masak szabgab: you have to build Rakudo in a certain way.
10:23 szabgab so why were people helping me fix the shell script instead of telling me to use the executable ?
10:23 szabgab ah, that explains, and now the default became that certain way ?
10:23 masak szabgab: because everyone does not like the executable.
10:23 masak szabgab: that's why you shouldn't distribute Perl 6 projects that assume the executable is there.
10:23 masak szabgab: I don't know about the default changing. it's possible, though.
10:23 moritz_ we should make the fake executable the default target
10:24 masak why, oh why?
10:24 masak :/
10:24 szabgab hmm, on one machine I got the executable, on the other one I did not
10:24 szabgab what did I do differently ?
10:24 moritz_ 'make' builds it, 'make spectest' doesn't
10:25 szabgab I use 'make' on both machines
10:26 szabgab the only difference I can see now is that on the one I did not get the thing I ran make languages  before that
10:26 moritz_ does 'make languages' even affect rakudo?
10:27 szabgab wait, the build crashed for me
10:28 masak moritz_: why should we target the fakecutable?
10:29 szabgab that's what I get if I don't check exit codes...
10:31 moritz_ masak: because we then have a uniform, platform independent way to invoke rakudo
10:32 masak ...which crashes all the time.
10:32 moritz_ it doesn't crash here.
10:32 masak sorry if I'm not overjoyed about the prospect of providing a crappy user experience to my users.
10:32 masak I prefer as few crashes as possible.
10:32 masak moritz_: it crashes on Mac OS X.
10:33 moritz_ masak: I think the best user experience would be to fix the crashes, and then use the fake exe
10:33 masak moritz_: ACK
10:33 masak but until that happens...
10:34 moritz_ how do I resolve a merge conflict in git?
10:34 moritz_ it says "Automatic merge failed; fix conflicts and then commit the result."
10:34 moritz_ so I resolved the conflict
10:35 moritz_ and tried a svn-commit
10:35 moritz_ and it says "fatal: cannot do a partial commit during a merge."
10:35 moritz_ s/svn/git/
10:35 moritz_ ah, I need to git-commit -a
10:37 szabgab ok, so now on both of my machines I have the perl6 executable, strange I have not seen it built earlier
10:37 szabgab I think it is good to have even if crashes now and then, someone will come along and fix it
10:40 jnthn hi all
10:41 moritz_ hi jnthn ;-)
10:43 mberends joined #perl6
10:44 masak hi jnthn, mberends.
10:45 moritz_ anyway, I'm keeping the fakexecutable branch on github up to date
10:46 moritz_ and when it passes on all platforms, we can merge it into master
10:46 mberends hi, masak! proto bash->perl5 is going a little slowly, because off distractions, but it is taking shape.
10:46 mberends *of
10:47 masak mberends: cool. if you push an intermediate step, make sure you push to a branch, not to master.
10:47 mberends right.
10:57 Matt-W oh hai jnthn
11:01 moritz_ perl6: 2**30
11:01 p6eval elf 25499: RESULT«1073741824␤»
11:01 p6eval ..rakudo 2a9382: RESULT«1073741824»
11:01 p6eval ..pugs: RESULT«1073741824/1»
11:02 moritz_ elf: print 1;
11:02 p6eval elf 25499: OUTPUT«1»
11:02 moritz_ elf: print 1.perl
11:02 p6eval elf 25499: OUTPUT«1»
11:02 moritz_ where does the \n come from in elf's output
11:02 moritz_ not from print, and not from .perl
11:02 bacek perl6: sub bar { 1;;}; say bar
11:02 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤current instr.: 'parrot;List;!flatten' pc 5830 (src/classes/List.pir:253)␤»
11:02 p6eval ..elf 25499, pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
11:03 bacek moritz_: this is much interesting :)
11:20 masak so, first independent Rakudo release tomorrow?
11:20 bacek joined #perl6
11:58 moritz_ TimToady++ "time_t must die.  This is non-negotiable.
11:58 moritz_ 2
11:58 moritz_ erm
11:58 moritz_ "
11:59 moritz_ is what I meant ;-)
11:59 Matt-W woo
11:59 * Matt-W can get behind that assertion
12:10 masak assert(:woo)
12:11 mib_amxadj joined #perl6
12:11 mib_amxadj Hi everybody,
12:11 moritz_ hi
12:12 masak mib_amxadj: hi. welcome.
12:12 moritz_ another m\w+ ;-)
12:12 mib_amxadj Is there any official Perl6 grammar specification, mebbe an ANTLR or YACC grammar?
12:12 masak mib_amxadj: there's STD.
12:12 moritz_ it's written in Perl 6 rules
12:13 masak but quite approachable, if you ask me.
12:13 moritz_ http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm
12:16 mib_amxadj moritz_: Is the Perl6 grammer final?
12:16 masak mib_amxadj: it's still changing now and then, if that's what you're asking.
12:16 moritz_ mib_amxadj: nothing in Perl 6 is final
12:17 masak ...and that's a good thing.
12:17 mib_amxadj Well ok.
12:17 masak if it's to be by the community, then it'll have to change until it and the community converge.
12:17 moritz_ but it's pretty stable in what it accepts
12:17 masak and it's runnable.
12:18 masak std: say "OH HAI"
12:18 p6eval std 25499: OUTPUT«ok 00:05 37m␤»
12:18 Maghnus- joined #perl6
12:19 masak another M\w+ :)
12:27 jnthn masak: Yeah, it's getting quite a pain to tab-complete your handle now. :-P
12:27 moritz_ we finally need mind reading software
12:28 moritz_ (or type a bit more on our own ;-)
12:28 masak jnthn: I think it's a conspiracy, which the other M people forgot to tell me about.
12:30 * jnthn so does *not* want mind reading software attached to an IRC client...
12:32 masak historically, DWIM was a bad term.
12:32 masak the Perl community uses it in a good sense.
12:32 masak but I think that it's bad in many cases, and that Perl 6 even retreats in some cases where Perl 5 DWIM-med.
12:34 mib_amxadj masak: Do you think, say in a year, Perl 6 will be finalised?
12:34 masak mib_amxadj: that's the million dollar question.
12:35 moritz_ I'm quite sure it won't
12:35 moritz_ there's just too much to do
12:35 masak mib_amxadj: what I think you should ask yourself is this: what's the difference if it's "finished" or not?
12:35 moritz_ all this concurrency and unicode level stuff will turn out to be rather quickly
12:35 masak I mean, it's usable today.
12:36 mib_amxadj masak: I am developing Perl plugin for Netbeans, Thought if Perl 6 grammer is finalised, I could add support for Perl 6 too
12:37 jnthn Aye, I think while the core language is now pretty solid/stable, and we're getting increasingly close to a good and stable implementation of it, there's plenty of other topics like concurrency and IO etc that are currently underspec'd (though IO looks more encouraging of late...)
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12:40 masak the question is where in the process we'll call it 6.0.0.
12:40 masak like it or not, 6.0.0 is important to people, especially to outsiders.
12:41 moritz_ I think we should avoid the parrot-1.0 mistake
12:41 jnthn moritz_: Which part of it? ;-)
12:41 moritz_ where people just call it 1.0 because they expect other people to like it better when it's 1.0, even if it doesn't contain the things we want in it
12:42 masak I think that's only partly a mistake.
12:42 moritz_ and to throw away things like deprecation cycles just to make it in time
12:42 jnthn I think Parrot is not going to get a decent mass of people writing compilers for it until it calls itself 1.0.
12:42 jnthn And it's not going to be so applicable to end users until it has working, complete compilers...
12:43 wayland moritz_: your concurrency/unicode comment didn't grok for me -- did you leave a word out?
12:43 masak there's a tendency in FOSS software to have low (<1.0) version numbers. that sometimes scares people away, I think.
12:43 moritz_ well, let's say we ship a very good, usable nearly-perl6 rakudo, but with Unicode support still only very basic - I don't want to be the one who tells the people out there "we call it 6.0, but it's still not the final stuff"
12:44 jnthn Aye, for Perl 6 I think it's kinda different.
12:44 jnthn The target audience for a 6.0.0 is rather large.
12:44 masak moritz_: for some feature X that'll always be the case.
12:44 jnthn For Parrot 1.0, it's much smaller.
12:44 jnthn (e.g. compiler writers)
12:44 moritz_ wayland: s/quickly/dirty/
12:44 moritz_ wayland: then it somehow makes sense ;-)
12:44 wayland Yup :)
12:45 wayland I was looking at undefined specs earlier today
12:45 wayland They both scare me
12:45 wayland :)
12:45 wayland My best bet, I think, would be to find people who know something, and ask them for help :)
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12:46 masak wayland: something like that.
12:47 moritz_ I think for Unicode Larry has a mental piccture in his head of how it should work
12:47 moritz_ I've got the book "Unicode explained" for christmas, it cleared up some things for me
12:47 moritz_ (but mostly it was too verbose, and too little technical)
12:49 wayland I guess we need to get some kind of brain dump from him then :)
12:49 s1n moritz_: lemme send you a new pull request
12:49 moritz_ s1n: or just tell me which other commits to cherry-pick
12:49 s1n moritz_: basically, i've been having trouble with git
12:49 wayland I have a vague impression of UTF-8, a skim through some of the fonts in OOo's character map, and that's about it :)
12:49 s1n moritz_: okay, shall i send you a pull request?
12:50 moritz_ s1n: I don't think that's going to help me
12:50 moritz_ s1n: just tell me the SHA1s of the commits that make what you want
12:52 s1n ef8bb8a9bbc102a2aa96af93b81ee513eb8f4158 - that one fixes Range.pir and Range.pm (but Range.pm is not new at that point)
12:53 s1n moritz_: 3cfc0f2514f0e60dfdf148050f899a21c834cf27 adds Range.pm
12:53 s1n moritz_: 9aaa705962b1f5183b5e35d14acd69184665ff55 fixes the Makefile
12:54 s1n moritz_: you'll probably want to play those back in the reverse of what i said :)
12:54 s1n moritz_: that is, update Makefile.in, add Range.pm, update Range.pm and Range.pir
12:56 moritz_ meh, I get some conflicts on picking ef8bb8a9bbc102a2aa96af93b81ee513eb8f4158
12:58 s1n hmm, well branch/fork management with git is difficult...
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12:58 s1n gotta go to work, lemme know if you have any questions about it
12:58 moritz_ I'm trying that out now
12:59 moritz_ actually it's not hard ;-)
13:02 masak indeed not.
13:02 masak just different.
13:03 wayland bed.  Night all.
13:07 moritz_ how do I move the last three commmits off to branch?
13:08 krunen 'What? In riddles?' said Gandalf. 'No! For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying.' He laughed, but the sound now seemed warm and kindly as a gleam of sunshine.
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13:08 masak moritz_: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/364925/is-it-possible-to-retroactively-turn-a-set-of-commits-into-a-branch
13:09 moritz_ I found a better methods
13:09 masak ok, good.
13:09 moritz_ git-checkout -b new_branch
13:09 moritz_ git-checkout old_branch
13:09 moritz_ git-reset --hard HEAD~3
13:09 masak that works.
13:09 masak git++
13:10 moritz_ that works in my case (but not in that question) because the commits are linear
13:10 masak aye.
13:12 moritz_ s1n: I've applied your changes to the public branch range_to_settings - I must have screwed up something because 'make spectest' isn't clean, it says "Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'Range'"
13:23 jnthn moritz_: You did re-configure?
13:25 moritz_ jnthn: don't think so, trying now...
13:27 moritz_ it could actually work if I wrote valid Perl 6 code ;-)
13:29 masak harder than it seems.
13:30 jnthn Yeah, we so shoulda stuck with doing it all in PIR.
13:30 jnthn ;-)
13:31 moritz_ what I'm doing is only hard when I'm not concentrated ;-)
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13:41 moritz_ s1n: your code simply doesn't work. $topic isn't guarantueed to have .from and .to methods (it's self that has these methods), and for string ranges you can't use < or <= for comparison
13:42 moritz_ s1n: I'm trying it now with cmp instead
13:43 masak that 'self.method vs .method' error is one I often make myself.
13:43 masak it seems my brain wants two mutually exclusive things with the .method syntax.
13:46 Matt-W I started off under the assumption that the default topic in a method is always self
13:47 Matt-W But it seems that isn't the case
13:47 masak no.
13:47 Matt-W so I've been writing self.this and self.that
13:47 masak aye.
13:48 masak what you can do is rename the invocant in the params list.
13:48 Matt-W you can say method foo($_:)
13:48 Matt-W I'm not sure why you'd want anything else when self is always available
13:48 Matt-W but maybe I just haven't imagined a weird enough situation yet
13:51 masak Matt-W: well, renaming the invocant to $_ is the way to be able to say .method, so there's your situation.
13:51 masak the question still is whether it's worth it for readability, though.
13:53 Matt-W mmm
13:53 Matt-W I see it for $_
13:53 Matt-W but calling it $this or whatever, when there's always a self keyword...
13:53 Matt-W seems a bit pointless
13:54 masak Matt-W: well... don't do that, then.
13:54 masak Perl 6 just gives you a lot of rope.
13:54 Matt-W I wasn't planning to do it
13:54 Matt-W :)
13:56 masak sometimes it helps to give variables informative names. maybe one could rename the invocant into $file or $target or whatever to increase readability in some cases.
13:57 masak but that's all a question for a growing Perl 6 community to collectively figure out.
14:24 aindilis` jrockway, ping
14:28 Matt-W Indeed, and us, as members of that community, as we write things... things like Form.pm
14:28 masak :)
14:30 * jnthn wonders if anyone fancies taking on From.pm
14:30 * Matt-W already started
14:31 PerlJam Matt-W: What are you using as a spec?
14:31 Matt-W E07 and Perl6::Form
14:31 Matt-W I'm not currently aware of any other sources
14:32 PerlJam well, you could see about tapping Damian's brain too  :)
14:33 Matt-W yes I probably will
14:33 Matt-W to have produced Perl6::Form he must've thought about it a lot :)
14:34 PerlJam indeed.  Perl6::Form is quite cool.
14:37 Matt-W I've found the code quite hard to get my head around
14:37 Matt-W But some of the hardest bits I think will be done differently in Perl 6 anyway
14:37 PerlJam Matt-W: I think everyone has that same experience when reading Damian's code.
14:37 Matt-W he could do with a few comments here and there
14:37 Matt-W so that the comment count is >0
14:38 masak Matt-W: comment it and send him a patch. :)
14:38 Matt-W well I have been commenting my copy
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14:38 Matt-W but I'll be embarking on the Perl 6 implementation soon, which will work differently in some areas
14:38 Matt-W not necessarily just because it's in Perl 6, but also because I'm writing it
14:41 PerlJam Hardly anyone writes idiomatic Perl 6 yet, so the more people writing it, the better we get at idioms.  :)
14:41 Matt-W :)
14:41 Matt-W Well we'll see how mine looks when I push some code into the git branch
14:42 Matt-W hopefully later this week I'll have time to write something useful
14:42 Matt-W only out three nights...
14:45 masak PerlJam: how does one know whether one writes idiomatic Perl 6? :) I've been writing Perl 6 code almost every day for over half a year now, so I think I'm eligible.
14:45 PerlJam masak: you are.
14:45 masak yay \o/
14:46 masak I've always wanted to write idiomatic Perl 6 code. :)
14:46 PerlJam :-)
14:49 moritz_ masak: if you think "I'm repeating myself" or "this looks ugly" then you're not writing idiomatic Perl 6 code ;-)
14:49 masak that still happens to me sometimes, though.
14:49 PerlJam it happens to everybody.
14:49 masak of course, when it happens, I try to refactor. :P
14:49 PerlJam exactly!
14:49 moritz_ that's where the test suite kicks in
14:50 moritz_ welcome to XP
14:51 masak I guess.
14:51 masak or TDD, more precisely.
14:51 moritz_ yes
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14:54 masak cspencer: hi... twice. :)
14:54 cspencer masak: hey...once! :)
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15:08 masak is there any equivalent of $/.from in Perl 5?
15:08 * masak increasingly finds himeself forgetting such things
15:09 moritz_ masak: pos($str)
15:09 masak moritz_: thank you.
15:09 masak eew, that's gross. :P
15:09 Matt-W can you say $str.pos instead?
15:09 PerlJam Matt-W: not in perl 5
15:09 moritz_ no
15:10 masak Matt-W: not in Perl 5.
15:10 Matt-W oh sorry
15:10 Matt-W wrong way round
15:10 Matt-W visual studio is rotting my brain this afternoon
15:11 cspencer is anybody here semi-proficient with git?
15:11 cspencer i'm still in the early stages of figuring it out and i'm particularly baffled at the moment
15:11 PerlJam cspencer: what's up?
15:12 moritz_ I can answer simple questions, and for harder I can point to #git
15:12 cspencer well, i'd like to generate a patch against rakudo HEAD that invovles changes to two files and the addition of a new file
15:12 cspencer though every time i do a "git diff", it fails to include the newly added file in the patch
15:13 moritz_ cspencer: make a 'git-add $file; git-commit -a; git-format-patch HEAD^'
15:14 cspencer thank you!
15:15 cspencer i was missing the "HEAD^" on the end of "git format-patch"
15:17 * PerlJam realizes that he hasn't really looked at rakudo since the repo move.
15:19 cspencer hmmm...i imagine it's bad form to submit a patch that end up breaking some of the tests :)
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15:21 moritz_ it is indeed
15:22 cspencer heh, i'll rework it then until it doesn't
15:23 cspencer i'd rewritten some of the methods in src/builtins/any-list.pir into a perl 6 Any.pm class, and it seems some of the cases weren't quite handled
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15:30 moritz_ cspencer: you have to take care with methods that are "exported" as subs
15:32 Matt-W yes please don't submit patches that pass fewer tests than the pre-patch code :)
15:32 Matt-W it's okay if it passes more though
15:32 Matt-W I think everyone likes that
15:34 cspencer hah, yes, that's understandable :)
15:35 * moritz_ thinks of re-writing Str.split(Regex) in Perl 6
15:35 Matt-W ooh yes
15:35 Matt-W I'd like to see the code for that :)
15:36 * moritz_ too. If somebody showed me, I wouldn't have to write it myself ;-)
15:38 Matt-W lol
15:39 Matt-W hey I'm writing Form.pm
15:39 Matt-W you can manage split
15:39 Matt-W :P
15:39 moritz_ ;-)
15:40 PerlJam just implement it in terms of comb  :-)
15:40 jnthn Matt-W: Are you writing it such that Rakudo can run it and testing it with that along the way?
15:40 Matt-W jnthn: yes
15:40 jnthn Matt-W: Awesome.
15:40 Matt-W I know no other way to ensure I'm barking in the correct forest when it comes to syntax :)
15:40 Matt-W I'm also going to try and give it a test suite
15:41 jnthn That would be great.
15:41 Matt-W Well it'll help me
15:41 Matt-W there will doubtless be numerous helper functions that all need to be working correctly
15:41 jnthn Is it something we'd expect to test it in the spectests?
15:42 Matt-W I don't know
15:42 Matt-W If it's considered part of the spec, then yes
15:42 Matt-W but I doubt it
15:42 * jnthn ain't sure
15:42 Matt-W well it's not part of the language, it's a core module
15:43 Matt-W I'm not going to worry about it though
15:43 Matt-W Once it actually works, we can discuss where it's going to live and where it should be tested
15:44 Matt-W assuming, that is, that I can get it to such a point :)
15:46 PerlJam What's a "core module"?
15:47 moritz_ a p5ism
15:47 jnthn "is also does" is terrible English... :-)
15:48 moritz_ I know :/
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15:54 PerlJam good reason for using multi instead of is also too.
15:54 PerlJam multi class IO::File does BarkRole { ... }
15:55 Matt-W you can have multi classes???
15:55 moritz_ no
15:55 PerlJam Matt-W: not yet.
15:55 moritz_ but changing the composition of the class later on is just... evil
15:56 Matt-W mmmm
15:56 Matt-W well some people would say reopening a class is evil too
15:56 moritz_ what do you need that for anyway?
15:56 Matt-W I think it should be reserved for special occasions :)
15:56 Matt-W home &
15:56 PerlJam moritz_: easy things easy, hard things possible.  :)
15:56 moritz_ "evil things possible"
15:56 PerlJam moritz_: what do you need goto for anyway?  :)
15:58 PerlJam Perl allows for behaviors that can be used for evil because sometimes evil is good.
15:58 PerlJam :-)
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16:16 dukeleto mornin'
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17:16 masak TSa's explanations, while seemingly very well-written, almost always make me confused.
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17:49 pugs_svn r25500 | autarch++ | Some fixes to make this valid Perl 6 (returns is out, our RETTYPE is in)
17:49 pugs_svn r25500 | autarch++ |
17:49 pugs_svn r25500 | autarch++ | Also some other formatting fixlets
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18:00 * Matt-W scowls at rakudo saying 'syntax error'
18:10 Matt-W can rakudo do the { make Thing.new } inside a rule?
18:16 jnthn Matt-W: I don't think so.
18:16 Matt-W damn
18:16 Matt-W I was hoping I'd just done something wrong
18:16 jnthn I don't think we have embedded (Perl 6) closures inside rules yet...
18:16 Matt-W going to have to do it the other way then :(
18:17 jnthn Note that you can associate a grammar with a class supplying actions.
18:17 Matt-W ooh
18:17 Matt-W how
18:18 Matt-W would that give me a similar effect?
18:18 jnthn You can write {*} in a rule and then call a Perl 6 action in a class where method names match rule names...
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18:18 Matt-W that sounds like it'd do
18:18 Matt-W does it get the match object?
18:20 jnthn Yeah
18:20 Matt-W yay
18:20 Matt-W jnthn++
18:20 jnthn I think you do it by passing a :actions($instnace_of_the_class) to TheGrammar.new
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18:21 jnthn In fact, a patch was submitted for adding "make" recently and I'm pretty sure pmichaud reviewed it, I just can't remember if it was applied or not.
18:21 Matt-W hmm
18:21 Matt-W maybe I need to update
18:21 rcharles_ joined #perl6
18:21 jnthn This was maybe last week, or the week before...
18:21 * jnthn is a tad hazy :-)
18:21 Matt-W heh
18:23 rcharles_ joined #perl6
18:24 * jnthn -> dinner
18:24 rcharles_ hello
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19:52 bacek good morning
19:54 bacek perl6: my ($a,$b,$c)=1..3; $a += $b += $c; say ($a,$b,$c);
19:55 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«623␤»
19:55 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«653␤»
19:55 p6eval ..elf 25500: OUTPUT«Unknown rule: infix_postfix_meta_operator:=␤It needs to be added to ast_handlers.␤ at ./elf_h line 2042␤»
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20:01 pmurias @tell ruoso shouldn't the metaclass be responsible for protoobject creation instead of it being always a p6opaque?
20:01 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:09 bacek @tell jnthn proto infix:<:=>  should be "is assoc('right')"
20:09 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:19 bacek What the current policy for commiting in spec?
20:19 diakopter shoot first, ask questions later?
20:19 bacek diakopter: good answer :)
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20:21 pugs_svn r25501 | bacek++ | [spec] Fix typo in map example.
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21:02 alester does anyone here have admin on pugscode.org?  I need credentials, or rather, my password reset.
21:02 diakopter alester: sure; privmsg
21:03 alester ?
21:03 * PerlJam is mildly shocked that alester does *not* have admin on pugscode.org (since that's just feather.perl.nl)
21:04 neodemi left #perl6
21:04 PerlJam (but, of course, it helps if you know your password ;)
21:06 pugs_svn r25502 | andy++ | fixing some quotes, and testing my commit powers
21:13 alester Now I can go muck with tests. Whoo.
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21:58 wayland Question -- The stuff in Numeric.pod that I copied from S29 indicates that srand and atan2 are exported by default, but no other functions are.  Anyone know why?
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22:35 mikehh Question -- I have been trying to figure out how the .rakudo ext tests are generated when running make spectest
22:36 mikehh I am probably missing something obvious but cannot see how at the moment
22:42 jnthn mikehh: fudgeall is run at the start of make spectest, and it generates them.
22:42 lambdabot jnthn: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:44 wayland jnthn: Are you able to point me at something that explains parametric types and/or roles?
22:45 wayland I grepped the specs for "parametric", and the only thing I found that I was able to make sense of was the part about my Hash [of => Array [of => Hash]] %whatever
22:46 jnthn Which is out of date anyway. fail.
22:46 jnthn wayland: I did blog about them not so long ago.
22:47 wayland :).  On the Rakudo site?
22:47 jnthn wayland: http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/38308
22:47 jnthn it's on rakudo.org too
22:47 jnthn See also the applicable test files in t/spec/S12-role/.
22:47 mikehh so basically fudgall looks for rakudo: comments and generates the .rakudo test file if it finds them?
22:48 jnthn mikehh: Pretty much, yes, though rakudo is a parameter to it - it'll take any implementation name in there.
22:49 jnthn wayland: And if you have any more questions, feel free to ask. :-)
22:49 mikehh I gathered that from the humpty stuff in the README which I finally tracked down
22:49 jnthn :-)
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22:52 Ariens_Hyperion hi has anyone tested how long does parrot + perl take to startup?
22:54 mikehh What confused me a bit is I have clean copies of parrot , pugs and rakudo aand copied a new setup of parrot and copied the rakudo and pugs/t/spec in and couldn.t see the files after make perl6
22:55 wayland jnthn: My plan is, if I get some time to dedicate to it, to write S14 :)
22:55 mikehh but they appeared after make spectest - all with the same timestamp
22:56 jnthn wayland: Heh, I've had the same plan for weeks. ;-)
22:56 jnthn wayland: Help very welcome, anyway.
22:57 jnthn Many hands make light work. :-)
22:58 wayland I'll probably be able to do a rough outline, but it will need some work when I'm done with it.
22:59 wayland My method so far has been to produce specs that create enough outrage that someone else will do it (cf. Temporal.pod :) )
22:59 jnthn That's OK, in many ways hacking on something that exists is easier than starting afresh.
22:59 jnthn haha!
22:59 wayland Well, you'll also notice that I haven't started any document from absolutely nothing
22:59 wayland S07 came from a webpage of ruoso
23:00 wayland S32 came from S16 and S29
23:00 jnthn Aye
23:00 jnthn S14 partly should come from S12.
23:00 wayland But now that I have the spectests, that may help some
23:00 wayland Maybe S02 too
23:05 wayland Another question -- should all the stuff about Roles be moved from S12 to S14?
23:05 jnthn Yes.
23:05 jnthn Probably.
23:05 wayland ok :)
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23:30 meppl good night
23:30 wayland g'night :)
23:30 meppl ;)
23:33 Ariens_Hyperion Perl6 takes 0.422 ms to start in my machine, is this going to be improved?
23:33 pugs_svn r25503 | wayland++ | S29: s/Container.pod/Containers.pod/
23:33 pugs_svn r25503 | wayland++ | S14/S12: Extracted S14 from S12, added Jonathan's blog entry, a bit from S02, and a bit
23:33 pugs_svn r25503 | wayland++ | from the spectests
23:34 wayland Ariens_Hyperion: The basic plan is, 1) get it working, 2) get it fast
23:34 Ariens_Hyperion at least there is hope :)
23:34 wayland So yes, we're expecting that to improve, but especially after the 6.0.0 release :)
23:34 jnthn Ariens_Hyperion: Did you test that with a normal or an optimized build of Parrot? :-)
23:34 wayland jnthn: Feel free to shoot holes in S14 :)
23:35 Ariens_Hyperion I asked because I write perl scrips to do simple text manipulation and the program starts a new interpreter process each time a script need to bee ran
23:35 Ariens_Hyperion jnthn: normal
23:36 Ariens_Hyperion program => text editor
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23:37 pugs_svn r25504 | wayland++ | Added S14 links
23:37 jnthn Ariens_Hyperion: You might get better out of optimized, but I'd doubt a massive amount.
23:38 jnthn Ariens_Hyperion: Someone did post on the Parrot dev list a while back a breakdown of what we do at startup.
23:39 wayland jnthn: I feel that the section between "=head1 Parametric Types" and "=head2 Parametric Roles" needs work, but none of the information I saw seems to cover it (ie. unless it works because Hash is both a role and a class or something)
23:40 jnthn wayland: OK, I'll hack on it. :-)
23:43 diakopter rakudo: static IEnumerable<int> Evens() { return Integers().Where(n => { return n % 2 == 0; }); }
23:43 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "Evens() { "␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
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23:45 diakopter rakudo: (from n in Integers() where n % 2 == 0 select n * n).Take(20).ForEach(n => { Console.Write("{0}, ", n); });
23:45 p6eval rakudo 2a9382: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "where n % "␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
23:45 diakopter jnthn: apparently rakudo doesn't know C#3 yet :P
23:50 hercynium joined #perl6
23:50 jnthn diakopter: :-P
23:52 jnthn Integers() ==> grep { $^n % 2 == 0 } ==> map { $^n ** 2 } ==> ...
23:52 jnthn Hmm, we don't ahve a take yet :-)
23:52 jnthn (Plus pipe operators not implemented...yet... ;-))
23:54 jnthn OH NO the Perl 6 spec temporarily has a reference to getting hangovers from Slovak alcohol!
23:54 * jnthn should pick better examples in the future
23:55 wayland Well, we don't want the Spec to be boring, right?
23:55 wayland I mean, this is Perl :)
23:55 wayland I intentionally included that :)
23:56 wayland But feel free to remove it if you want :)
23:56 jnthn It was in your commit, nobody will ever suspect me... ;-)
23:56 wayland ...unless they look at the commit message :)
23:57 jnthn Ssssh... ;-)
23:57 jnthn I'll try and find time to work on it a bit tomorrow.
23:58 wayland No worries.  I've probably done as much with it as I can, unless there are other parts to move from S12 :)
23:59 jnthn wayland++ # motivating others to Do Stuff

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