Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-03-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 s1n moritz_: ping
00:16 skids joined #perl6
00:32 wayland76 In response to diakopter's question about reference material for Context...
00:33 wayland76 There's a section on them in S29 that I'm hoping will someday (soon?) move to S32
00:33 wayland76 @tell diakopter There's a section on Contexts in S29 that I'm hoping will someday (soon?) move to S32
00:34 lambdabot Consider it noted.
00:53 diakopter k..
00:53 lambdabot diakopter: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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01:32 diakopter E2MANYWTDI
01:34 skids Well, I got that but for 3 seconds I was thinking of the hazards involved in accidentally typing your password into IRC :-)
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01:34 diakopter ESUCKYPASSWORD
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01:48 diakopter (The Paradox of Choice)
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01:50 pugs_svn r25719 | wayland++ | Made Basics contain Object, Any, Pattern, and Scalar
01:52 pugs_svn r25720 | wayland++ | Any + Scalar -> Basics (along with Object and Pattern)
01:59 * wayland76 votes for S08, and hopes someone has the Capture-foo to do it :)
02:03 wayland76 (i'm backlogging :) )
02:03 wayland76 Notes to those keen to expand beyond Latin-1 -- Perl6 can be extended to do this fairly easily, I believe
02:05 wayland76 I predict World War 3 around 2020-2025.  I hope I'm wrong :)
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02:07 wayland76 If we're worried about the hashy component of slice, maybe we could call the slice/capture things "cookies".  As in "hash cookies" :)
02:08 wayland76 (in Australia at least, a "slice" is what some Americans would call a "tray bake"; the same form factor as brownies, but different ingredients, depending on the slice recipe -- lemon slice can be good :) )
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02:28 * skids never heard of a "tray bake"
02:28 skids In my house we'd call that "what were you too lazy to roll individual cookies?"  :-)
02:29 wayland76 Well, you can have multi-layered things too
02:29 wayland76 For example, a layer of biscuit-crumbs in butter
02:30 wayland76 and a layer of opaque white lemon-flavoured jelly-like stuff (or maybe you'd say jello-like)
02:30 wayland76 and then a layer of semi-transparent jelly/jello
02:31 wayland76 Well, when I explained the Australian use of the word "slice" to Americans and Canadians, the only alternative anyone was able to offer was "tray bake"
02:32 wayland76 Oh, and when I said "biscuit crumbs", all Americans should read it as "cookie crumbs" :)
02:32 diakopter "____ bars"
02:32 diakopter lemon, river, etc
02:32 wayland76 Oh, good point diakopter :)
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02:34 skids "homemade pop tarts?"  I dunno
02:35 wayland76 A bit like that, I guess (at least, judging by the Wikipedia page on pop tarts :) )
02:37 skids I think I'll stick with "giant square cookie"
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02:38 wayland76 Feel free to, but if you also understand how I use "slice", you'll get the joke above about hash cookies :)
02:39 wayland76 Incidentally, skids, we usually cut them into pieces about the size of your index finger after they're all cooked
02:39 wayland76 as per diakopter's suggestion of ___ bars
02:40 skids being that we are particularly unimaginative, we'd probably call them "sticks"
02:40 diakopter river bars will be the death of me.
02:42 diakopter I like the idea, in general, of breaking up the S__ into smaller portions... has anyone else commented on that?
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02:43 skids as long as it is done in moderation, though I suspect there will be places where there was some good "flow" that will be lost.  But they are unwieldy unless they get split.
02:44 skids then again a huge index might be intimidating
02:44 diakopter that's my opinion, too.... it'll need a *lot* more consensus though.....
02:44 skids put it this way -- they can always be glued back end to end.
02:45 wayland76 I presume S__ means the synopses
02:45 wayland76 If so, thanks (I did that :) )
02:46 wayland76 My thought is that, to increase manageability, parts of the unwieldy synopses could be moved into S32
02:46 wayland76 Of course, there's a lot of things that won't go, but there are probably also some that will :)
02:47 skids given the corresponding apocolypses etc stay with there numbers, it might be good to have a way to figure out how to find the relevant pairs of sections.
02:48 wayland76 ?
02:48 wayland76 I presume you mean "their numbers", but I still don't understand
02:49 wayland76 Quick question -- are you aware that the synopses are based on the chapters in the Camel book?
02:49 skids each synopsis in the original set was paired with the apocolyse "justification" that gets into rationale.
02:49 wayland76 (Programming Perl, 3rd edition is the one that I have)
02:49 skids of that I was not aware.
02:51 wayland76 skids: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A01.html (Apocalypse 1) talks about the chapter correspondance
02:52 wayland76 By "pairs of sections", you don't by any chance mean the way that http://perlcabal.org/syn/ matches each Spec with its corresponding Apocalypse, do you?
02:52 skids ok, now how does someone who just clicks on a "perl documentation" pick up on that?
02:52 skids yes, that's what I meant
02:53 wayland76 pick up on the chapter arrangement?
02:53 wayland76 Btw, the long term plan is that the Specs (I really should stop calling them synopses) are supposed to specify the language for implementors, not document it for users
02:54 wayland76 ...and when the specs and at least one implementation have settled down a little, some user documentation will be written
02:54 wayland76 Actually, some people are starting now.  That's what U4X (Userdocs for Christmas) is all about.
02:55 skids I think the perlcabal page explanatory text might be improved a shade, is all.
02:56 wayland76 You mean the one in /syn/ , or the one at / ?
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02:56 skids syn
02:57 wayland76 In what way?
02:57 wayland76 Do you want them to declare that they're not user documentation?
02:57 skids hold on fingers covered in mango
02:59 wayland76 holding on (to my horses, but not to your fingers :) )
02:59 s1n wayland76: get any other responses for that rakudo newbie email?
03:01 wayland76 s1n: No, but there was a thread on IRC where pmichaud et. al. were discussing the fact that they really want some good doco on how a developer can become a Rakudo contributor
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03:04 skids phew.  Mangos: delecious, but very messy.
03:05 wayland76 That's why I've been eating dried pears :)
03:05 wayland76 I bought a bag of cheap pears, and put them through the dehydrator :)
03:08 skids Anyway just to say stuff like: Synopsis are updated, Apocolypses and Exegeneseseseses are historical, the document set is aimed at developers but can be useful for when the user docs do not go into enough detail.  Draft means really really draft.  SXX above a certain number are overflow from the originals or additions, changed stuff has usually been discussed on p6l or IRC, and STD.pm supersedes everything.
03:10 skids enough to get people oriented.  The stuff people who have been around take for granted.
03:11 wayland76 s1n: The comments are somewhere in the discussion at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-03-04 from 00:30 to 01:21 (yes, that's a lot of discussion, but I think it's mostly the early section that will interest you)
03:11 skids (And really as an aside other than p6l summaries changes and clarifications have not been well documented.)
03:12 skids (So if you go on vacation and come back 3 weeks later, you might be in for some surprises unless you sit down and read a LOT of material to catch up)
03:13 wayland76 skids: I agree -- it's hard for an outsider to keep up with things.  I was one for about 7 years, so I know :)
03:14 skids Anyway that's enough complaints from me, back to trying to grok Parrot internals.  More constructive use of time :-)
03:14 wayland76 It also looks like, according to the current /syn/ I'm wrong about the current docs not being user documentation for Perl 6.
03:14 s1n well, i've tried very unsuccessfully to devote 4-6 hours a week to contributing and haven't really gotten anywhere
03:14 wayland76 skids: Enjoy :)
03:15 s1n so i've been an outsider looking in for a year now
03:15 wayland76 s1n: Yeah, that'd be difficult.  Hopefully it will improve in the next month or two, as a few of the current things settle down.
03:16 s1n wayland76: i'm always looking for work, solid work, so if you want, feel free to throw things my way
03:16 skids Oh by the way do we have a word for code that is both valid (and same-functional) P5 and P6 at the same time?
03:16 s1n otherwise i'm left to my unimaginitive devices
03:17 wayland76 s1n: Well, we need some developer documentation
03:17 wayland76 Or a spec for Captures
03:18 s1n i don't think i'd be any good at writing a spec yet
03:18 wayland76 But as for actual coding, I'm afraid I personally am waiting on calls to external languages to be working
03:18 s1n but i have dug around rakudo enough to at least keep my head afloat
03:18 skids Or I think with "is export" fixed up (?) more setting work is now possible.
03:18 wayland76 s1n: Well, the information for a spec on captures is mostly there in other documents, and just needs to be collected in one place and written up friendly-like :)
03:19 wayland76 skids: I don't understand your question about the word for "code" being valid
03:19 wayland76 s1n: Skids has a point about working on the setting, too
03:20 s1n yeah, i thought that sounded most interesting, but for non-contributors, where do i start?
03:21 s1n i mean, if i code something, how am i going to get it into master?
03:21 skids I was just wondering if there's a word for code that parses in two different languages and does the same thing.
03:21 wayland76 s1n: Are you familiar with git?
03:21 s1n wayland76: only minimally
03:21 s1n i tried to manage my own fork on github
03:22 s1n it's not easy, especially for beginners, to manage 2 remotes
03:22 wayland76 skids: I don't know if we have a word for that.
03:22 wayland76 s1n: You're ahead of me, then
03:22 s1n especially when pmichaud stopped paying attention to the fork queue
03:23 wayland76 Judging by the IRC backlog, they're trying to get the hang of git, just like we are
03:23 wayland76 And are hoping that they'll be able to get back to the fork queue
03:24 s1n well, i just joined p6c, so i think i'll pop off an email later
03:24 wayland76 Am I right in presuming you've seen this?  http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/​rakudo/steps-to-create-a-patch
03:27 diakopter no. way.
03:27 diakopter (sorry, not in reference to any other previous msg)
03:28 s1n wayland76: yes, i even appended the last bit about the rebase
03:28 s1n though i think the rebase might night have been right, dunno, it seemed to work :)
03:29 wayland76 Ok.  Have you seen http://www.rakudo.org/node/23 ? (the todo list for rakudo.org )
03:29 skids rebase worked wonders for me.
03:29 wayland76 diakopter: In reference to what?
03:31 wayland76 s1n: Actually, have you considered helping with November?
03:31 diakopter erm. you'll see in a day or two. :)
03:31 wayland76 diakopter: Ok.  That sounds ominous :)
03:31 diakopter mruhaha
03:32 wayland76 s1n: The devs were just saying how wonderful it was to have people working on November, because it meant that the November team was discovering real bugs in Perl 6
03:32 skids Hrm... found a good DNS name?
03:32 skids (wrt "no. way.")
03:32 wayland76 Or, you could go through the bug list, and write tests for them :)
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03:34 diakopter no, I just stumbled upon (no, not using StumbleUpon) a project that will make IronPerl in weeks not years.
03:34 s1n wayland76: no i haven't thought of helping with november
03:35 s1n i'm actually mostly interested in getting rakudo working more completely
03:35 s1n but it's been real hard trying to become a contributor
03:36 s1n i've only had like 1 actual patch accepted, and that was written last summer
03:37 s1n it's frustrating to say the least
03:37 wayland76 diakopter: Hooray :)
03:39 * diakopter is flabbergasted
03:39 wayland76 s1n: I agree, and feel pretty much the same myself
03:40 wayland76 s1n: Try your message to p6c then.  That's probably your best bet :)
03:44 s1n wayland76: yes, i need to work on my thesis, but i'll get an email out tonight or tomorrow
03:46 wayland76 s1n: Ok, great :)
03:46 pugs_svn r25721 | wayland++ | Added more comments and things, as per suggestions by skids.
03:47 wayland76 skids: Try that on for size :)
03:47 wayland76 Go to http://perlcabal.org/syn/ and click "refresh".
03:47 wayland76 I think I covered everything you wanted except the part about these not being user docs
03:48 skids Thanks!
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03:56 skids So here's an idea -- after the heavy lifting reorganizing the Synopsis is done, whenever a change happens to one of the more solid Synopsis, the people who would dare do that should take care to link relevent IRC logs and/or p6l threads.
03:57 skids At that point, we finally have a record of design changes, in the SVN log.
03:57 skids (or git if that ever happens)
03:58 skids (of course not applicable to grammar tweaks)
03:58 skids Erm I meant, English grammar tweaks, that is :-)
04:00 wayland76 skids: Well, I like the idea, but people will forget.  It's really one for TimToady to decide
04:00 s1n here's another idea, rather than getting spammed by pugs-commits to the spec, why not just use an RSS feed with links to the diff?
04:02 wayland76 s1n: Interesting.  I don't think I'm the one to answer that.
04:02 wayland76 Maybe because replies need to go to the mailing list?
04:03 s1n i'm sure we could do something, maybe reply links in the feed message
04:04 s1n i mean, email updates, really? throwback to the early decade for sure
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04:12 wayland76 s1n: All I know is they had a similar discussion on the xorg list a few months ago, and couldn't agree on what was noise, and what was signal
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04:14 bacek_ hi there
04:15 s1n wayland76: not trying to say it's noise or not, just saying it's easier to read in a feed than in a million email updates
04:15 wayland76 hi where?  Oh, here!  Hi :)
04:16 s1n plus the diff in the email is hard to use when very minor changes occur
04:16 wayland76 s1n: Well, there's been talk about moving the spec stuff to a different repo, and maybe into git :)
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04:31 meppuru good night
04:36 wayland76 Does anyone know who wrote the parrot .spec file?
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04:42 wayland76 Don't worry about the spec file question.  But does anyone know how the install target is going?
04:42 wayland76 (ie. "make install" for Rakudo?)
05:00 skids Jeez I start to finally get into comprehending the Parrot core and then suddenly from out of nowhere I have a social life for a change.  Awesome, but bad timing.
05:07 wayland76 Well, I know the cure for that.  Explain the Parrot core to those in your social life :)
05:26 pugs_svn r25722 | wayland++ | Assuming .^methods returns an array of Method objects, I'mve documented things
05:26 pugs_svn r25722 | wayland++ | appropriately.  Now we just have to decide what the attribute descriptors are.
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06:35 wayland76 masak: hi :)
06:36 masak wayland76: good morning to you, sir.
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07:08 wayland76 Anyone here vaguely familiar with Configure.pl?
07:09 wayland76 I'm trying to put it in better shape so it works with a pre-installed parrot
07:09 wayland76 rather than having to build its own
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07:13 masak TimToady: for what it's worth, I think 'self' in a sub should be caught at compile time when possible and disallowed, even if (as you wrote) there's no practical barrier to calling the first argument 'self' even in a sub. every time I've written 'self' in a sub so far (and it has happened three or four times), it was because I demoted a method to a sub and overlooked the 'self'.
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07:36 masak http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38601
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08:12 masak http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38602
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08:17 masak a blog post about not having the time to blog. how postmodern.
08:17 * masak rolls eyes
08:17 wayland76 Enabled by Perl 6.  The first... you know what I mean :)
08:17 masak indeed.
08:20 moritz_ "Traversing the AST of a Perl 6 program from inside Perl 6 is, like, awesome."
08:20 moritz_ how do you do that?
08:20 masak I call STD.
08:20 masak and parse the result.
08:20 moritz_ ah
08:21 masak I wish I had something to show, but I don't, yet.
08:21 masak that item was the only one which was a bit premature.
08:21 masak the other ones have already happened.
08:21 moritz_ ;-)
08:22 masak I was hoping no-one would call me out on it. :P
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08:22 * moritz_ is not going to $work today, has a bit of a flu
08:22 moritz_ maybe I'll get around to blogging
08:22 masak or writing Perl 6 code.
08:22 riffraff joined #perl6
08:23 moritz_ are there any builtins yet to be written in Perl 6?
08:25 moritz_ (I mean new ones, not those that could be ported from PIR)
08:25 wayland76 rakudo: Any.^methods.say
08:26 p6eval rakudo e47c34: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class 'P6metaclass'␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;!.^' pc 1600 (src/classes/Object.pir:685)␤»
08:26 wayland76 Ah well :)
08:27 moritz_ well, introspection is a bit beyond my scope
08:27 masak rakudo: class A { method !bar() { say "OH HAI" }; method foo() { self.bar } }; A.foo
08:27 p6eval rakudo e47c34: OUTPUT«Could not locate a method 'bar' to invoke on class 'A'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 16351 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
08:29 masak rakudo: my %h; say %h<nosuch>.defined; say %*ENV<nosuch>.defined
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08:29 p6eval rakudo e47c34: OUTPUT«0␤1␤»
08:29 masak another strange thing about %*ENV.
08:29 moritz_ it's a known bug that accessing a hash element autovivifies it
08:30 moritz_ and a quite emberassing one, if you ask me
08:30 literal I thought that was a feature
08:30 masak moritz_: but look at the output.
08:30 masak moritz_: it's different for %h and %*ENV
08:31 masak literal: it was in Perl 5, I guess.
08:31 moritz_ not even there.
08:31 masak literal: but even there, there's an apology about it in perldoc.
08:31 masak moritz_: well, it isn't a bug in Perl 5.
08:31 moritz_ in Perl 5 when you access $a{foo}{bar} autovivifies $a{foo}
08:32 moritz_ but never the last indexed key
08:32 masak oh, right.
08:32 literal I can see how "say %hash<a><b><c>;" creating 'a' and 'b' would be bad, but creating them when doing "%hash<a><b><c> = 1" would be convenient
08:32 masak oh, of course.
08:32 moritz_ literal: that's how it specced in Perl 6
08:32 masak that's another matter entirely.
08:32 literal ok
08:32 masak it's the difference between reading and writing.
08:33 literal but if you do "if exists %hash<a><b><c>", when 'a' and 'b' don't exist, will it return false or throw an exception?
08:34 moritz_ I guess it'll be false
08:35 literal that would also be convenient
08:41 Matt-W false, surely
08:42 Matt-W because <a><b><c> obviously doesn't exist if <a> doesn't
08:42 masak new slogan: "When Perl 6 becomes endemic, everyone will have STD!"
08:42 Matt-W masak: might want to keep that one under wraps
08:42 masak Matt-W: perhaps you're right. :)
08:43 wayland76 Problems parsing Perl 6?  STD will give you AIDS :)
08:43 masak ouch. :P
08:43 masak std: say 42
08:43 p6eval std 25722: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 34m␤»
08:44 masak if I get non-ok results from STD locally on that one, what should I do?
08:44 masak I've done an svn up and a make, but I still get errors.
08:44 Matt-W wonder if your build is more recent than the one std is using
08:44 * moritz_ tries at home
08:45 masak I have a feeling it's just a dirty cache or something.
08:45 masak but I don't know what to do about it.
08:45 moritz_ 'make clean'
08:45 Matt-W rm -rf, then svn co :)
08:46 * masak makes clean
08:47 masak nope, still error.
08:47 masak Can't locate object method "term__S_390identifier" via package "STD" at /Users/masak/work/hobbies/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm line 1369.
08:47 * masak ponders the rm -rf alternative
08:50 moritz_ it's all fine here
08:50 masak vewy, vewy stwange.
08:50 * masak checks out Pugs anew
08:51 wayland76 My theory is the problem is you're on an S/390 :)
08:53 masak yes, why didn't I think of that?
08:53 wayland76 (sorry, couldn't resist :) )
08:53 masak :)
08:56 masak clean checkout, same problem.
08:56 masak is it possible that a bug in the automatic translation of STD.pm to Perl 5 manifests only on my computer?
08:57 Matt-W yes
08:57 masak oh, good.
08:58 masak and a serviceman from the STD corporation is on the way to my house as we speak, right?
08:59 Matt-W umm
08:59 Matt-W if they are, it's nothing to do with me
09:01 masak Matt-W: by the way: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-03-05#i_959401
09:03 moritz_ (line-linkable irc logs)++
09:04 masak moritz_++
09:04 Matt-W hmmmm
09:04 moritz_ I stole that idea from the previous logger
09:04 masak nevertheless. good theft.
09:05 Matt-W gargh
09:05 Matt-W so how do you spell it?
09:05 masak Damian.
09:05 Matt-W oh right
09:05 Matt-W yes I fixed the readme
09:06 masak but not the summary.
09:06 Matt-W yeah
09:06 Matt-W fixed by removing the reference, I'm not directly porting his method
09:06 masak goodie.
09:06 masak now, about those tests...
09:06 masak I got the impression that you said that some tests were failing.
09:07 Matt-W oh it parses fine
09:07 Matt-W but the action methods don't trigger
09:07 masak Matt-W: so your tests don't fail enough, is that what you're saying? :)
09:07 Matt-W yes
09:07 masak make them fail, then.
09:08 masak shouldn't be that hard.
09:08 Matt-W I will
09:08 masak good. when you do, I'll look at them again.
09:08 Matt-W I should test $field ~~ Form::Field
09:08 Matt-W or whatever it needs to be
09:08 Matt-W I'm very, very confused with match objects and result objects and action methods and make
09:09 masak it'll pass.
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09:14 mberends happy morning to all
09:15 Matt-W happy morning to you
09:16 moritz_ moinon, god of the greeting, be with you!
09:17 masak mberends: felicitations on the fine morning, sir.
09:20 mberends the old laptop is successfully repaired, but I balked at GBP 140 for a 60GB OCZ SSD. The Asus Eee PC has persuaded me of the merits of flash memory, so it will use LiveUSB henceforth. There are some nice case hacks documented to mount a hub and multiple pendrives inside the laptop.
09:20 literal LiveUSB?
09:21 mberends similar to LiveCD as in Knoppix, but in a USB flash drive
09:25 wayland76 I remember reading something where Linus (Torvalds) said that he only trusted one kind of flash memory, and he had some argument that made sense
09:25 wayland76 But I've forgotten it
09:25 wayland76 His argument, though, was that for standard-type disk usage, it would fail after a while
09:25 wayland76 Unless it was the special kind
09:26 mberends all disks fail, it's just a matter of how soon.
09:27 mberends all storage should be backed up, or replicated
09:27 wayland76 Agreed
09:27 wayland76 RAID USB hub?
09:28 mberends if the laptop chipset allows (near) concurrent I/O, then yes
09:40 wayland76 Looks like I might be wrong -- http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2008​/10/so-i-got-one-of-new-intel-ssds.html
09:49 mberends Nice review, Intel probably does cacheing in CMOS to speed the writes. SSD is at the start of the learning curve, there will be huge improvements in hardware and filesystems during the next few years. I plan to change all my hard drives to flash memory as they come up for replacement.
09:49 moritz_ http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?rakudo_feature_status "handles handle only String and List of String, Tepy and Regex not work yet" - what does this mean? FTW is Tepy?
09:50 masak :)
09:50 Matt-W Tepy??
09:51 masak and so, the FUD campaign begins.
09:51 masak soon, people will say, "what!? Perl 6 doesn't have a Tepy built in?"
09:51 masak people will blog about shunning Perl 6 when they discovered the lack of Tepy.
09:52 masak Guido van Rossum will come out saying that Python has had a Tepy since 2.3.
09:53 Matt-W rofl
09:53 masak TimToady will conjecturally add a Tepy to one of the synopses, but it'll be too late.
09:53 Matt-W all the while dodging the question of what a Tepy actually is
09:53 masak the damage is already done.
09:53 mberends it's a topy^H^H^Hypo
09:53 masak I think it should have been "Typo" in the article.
09:54 mberends :)
09:54 masak moritz_: btw, you misspelled "WTF" above. "FTW" is almost the opposite.
09:55 moritz_ right
09:55 masak Tepy FTW!
09:55 masak maybe I will name my next Perl 6 project Tepy.pm.
09:55 moritz_ it was Ilya how introduced that
09:56 masak his English is under construction.
09:56 moritz_ :)
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10:06 wayland76 FTW has two meanings that are diametrically opposite.  ]
10:07 literal wayland76: huh? how so?
10:08 literal "what the fuck" and "fuck the world" or something?
10:08 literal "for the win" and "fuck the world" or something?
10:08 literal even
10:09 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/status
10:09 moritz_ seems the chart is a bit too broad for the page
10:10 mberends Re: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl​6/index.cgi?rakudo_feature_status , the sequence of headings 1. "Common things that are known to have problems or not work in Rakudo" 2."Things that do (mostly?) work in Rakudo" should be reversed, then the cup would be half full instead of half empty.
10:10 rkendall moritz_ that depends on your screen size (it's a flexible layout)
10:11 moritz_ rkendall: ah, good. then it'll display fine for most people, I hope ;-)
10:11 moritz_ mberends: I'm moving that over to rakudo.org anyway, I can change the order
10:11 masak looks ok here.
10:11 rkendall although I do think the site could loose one of the sidebars, that would make it work better on smaller screens
10:12 moritz_ I thought about it also, but I didn't have the motivation to change it yet
10:12 masak though the search box covers the graph a bit.
10:12 literal yeah, the stuff in the right sidebar could be moved to the left one
10:12 moritz_ rkendall: aye. The right bar is mostly useless, its content could be stuffed into the left one
10:12 rkendall or the other way
10:12 * moritz_ likes navigation left
10:12 masak move it to the left.
10:14 mberends the rightmost part of a page is truncated on small displays, so put the important stuff on the left
10:15 moritz_ anyway, regexes++ # let me convert from one wiki markup to another quite fast
10:17 masak though recent experiences have taught me that they are not always enough. I cannot say this with total certainty, of course, since it might be my fault. but I believe that regexes can only get you so far.
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10:18 wayland76 literal: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FTW
10:18 wayland76 (oh, you got them in a later comment)
10:18 wayland76 (I was referring to "For the Win" and "The world")
10:18 moritz_ masak: they worked in my case, that was enough to safe me 15 minutes for boring and error-prone hand edits
10:19 Matt-W masak: you're correct, they can only do so much by themselves
10:19 masak moritz_: well, for one-off things, sure, they work.
10:21 moritz_ masak: for parsing Perl 6, they also work ;-)
10:21 moritz_ at least some regexes do ,-)
10:21 masak heh.
10:22 masak I think the futility of doing it with regexes is a bit more apparent in the Perl 6 case.
10:23 moritz_ I don't think STD.pm is futile ;-)
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10:26 * mberends wonders whether the PCRE library will eventually be superceded by P6RE
10:26 masak moritz_: I didn't say STD.pm was futile. you know what I mean. :)
10:26 masak by the way, STD.pm works for me if I call it standing in src/perl6/.
10:27 masak it doesn't work for me when I call it from elsewhere.
10:27 masak I believe that is a recently introduced bug.
10:28 moritz_ I never tried it from anywhere else
10:29 masak well, I could cd into the directory, but it's nice if it works from elsewhere.
10:29 * masak worksaround for now
10:29 masak you need to set PERLLIB to the src/perl6 dir, and that used to work. doesn't anymore.
10:29 masak that's the problem I was experiencing earlier.
10:33 mberends *PERL6LIB
10:34 masak mberends: no, PERLLIB.
10:34 masak STD is Perl 5.
10:34 masak that is, the translated version is.
10:34 * mberends retreats
10:35 masak by the way, is there a convenient opposite of slurp($file) in Perl 6?
10:36 Matt-W opposite?
10:36 Matt-W vomit($file)?
10:36 masak something like barf($file, $contents)
10:36 moritz_ lol
10:36 Matt-W print?
10:36 masak Perl 6 -- the disgusting language.
10:36 mberends i wrote one called squirt()
10:36 masak mberends: reminds me of the Zune.
10:36 Matt-W what would it do that print can't?
10:36 masak Matt-W: open/close the file.
10:37 Matt-W ah
10:37 Matt-W write one!
10:37 mberends i did
10:37 Matt-W then sneak it into the spec
10:37 Matt-W and try to convince larry he wrote it
10:37 Matt-W and that it's a great idea
10:37 masak Tepy.barf
10:37 mberends Python surely has it
10:41 mberends see lines 65-70 in http://github.com/eric256/perl6-exa​mples/blob/c4eb7dcc8012f996bcd642b8​09c0a4a72e1ee3a4/lib/Configure.pm
10:42 masak mberends: overwrites old files. bug or feature? :)
10:42 mberends "feature"
10:43 masak very well.
10:43 Matt-W failure case
10:43 masak rakudo: say slurp("nonexistent")
10:43 p6eval rakudo e47c34: OUTPUT«Unable to open filehandle␤current instr.: 'open' pc -90764 ((unknown file):-1)␤»
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12:30 rkendall Hi, had a logo idea which I just posted to perl6-users
12:32 moritz_ nice idea
12:33 rkendall (to add speach bubble to Parrot logo as a way to combine it with other logos - such as Rakudo's)
12:36 moritz_ I did read the mail before I commented here ;-)
12:37 rkendall was just in case someone else was listening too.
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12:48 ruoso Hello!
12:49 rindolf Hi ruoso
12:51 moritz_ rkendall: do you know how to change a redirection link in drupal with command line tools?
12:51 rkendall do you mean the URL alias?
12:51 moritz_ yes
12:51 moritz_ dunno
12:51 moritz_ we have 'lastest_release' link for parrot
12:52 moritz_ I think it's a redirect, not an URL alias
12:52 rkendall where is the link, just in a page on the site?
12:53 moritz_ yes
12:53 moritz_ on http://www.parrot.org/download
12:53 moritz_ the "urrent development Release"
12:53 moritz_ we'd like to automate that it actually follows the latest release
12:54 moritz_ if it can't be made easily, we'll just make a symoblic link latest/ on the ftp server
12:54 rkendall don't think that would be managed by drupal, rather by apache
12:54 rkendall or like that
12:56 rkendall would also be handy to have a 'latest' ftp URL
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13:09 pmurias ruoso: hi
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13:40 ruoso hi pmurias
13:42 ruoso pmurias, have you seen that we need to rewrite SMOP?
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13:55 pmurias ruoso: we extract the invocant using a macro in most places so it shouldn't be that big a problem
13:56 pmurias got to catch a train&
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14:42 pugs_svn r25723 | putter++ | [elf_h] EmitSimpleP5.pm: lt,gt added to fastpath operator handling (for elfparse).  Some cleanup of same.  PrimitivesP5.pm: Added infix:<+&>.
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14:48 pugs_svn r25724 | putter++ | [elfparse] EXPR now appears[1] to be running.  comp_unit accepts '3'.  [1]:devEXPR.pm is currently separately compiled so STD lexicals aren't linked up.
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16:01 pugs_svn r25725 | lwall++ | [Cursor] add :actions option to parse and parsefile
16:01 pugs_svn r25725 | lwall++ | [viv] use new :actions option
16:02 TimToady moritz_: you've got a formato on the $<?>, which eats the "tag"
16:03 TimToady @tell masak you've got what appears to be a typo, or perhaps you really meant Just Ducking Foo It
16:03 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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16:04 moritz_ TimToady: ah, I should fix that
16:05 * moritz_ is so used to perlmonks.org markup...
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16:11 rodi should the methods in rakudo/src/setting/Str.pm be largely synyonymous with the ones in S32/Str.pod?
16:12 alester Man, there was this Italian place in the city that made the best formato.
16:13 moritz_ rodi: yes
16:13 moritz_ rodi: although Str.pod uses more advanced Perl 6 than it's available for Rakudo yet
16:15 rodi moritz_: yeah, just trying to find a reasonable place to start a little hacking.
16:15 rodi I think I have a pretty good feel for the limits of which parts of P6 I can use in Rakudo.
16:16 moritz_ that's good
16:16 moritz_ many of the builtins are still written in PIR
16:17 moritz_ so if something isn't in src/setting/ it doesn't mean it's not implemented
16:18 rodi right- in src/classes/Str.pir, for example?
16:19 moritz_ for example
16:19 moritz_ there's also src/builtins/any-str.pir
16:20 * diakopter looks at :actions
16:22 rodi moritz_: if you can forgive my ignorance of how things fit together, do these PIR classes eventually merge with the P6 classes in some meaningful way- e.g. is this largely because of bootstrapping, or is it the architectural intent?
16:23 moritz_ rodi: in the end most or all builtins will be written in Perl 6...
16:24 moritz_ rodi: though to achieve higher efficiency, maybe with embedded PIR
16:24 rodi makes sense.
16:24 [particle]1 or where it's not possible to write in p6
16:25 [particle]1 like infix:<+>
16:25 rodi also makes sense.
16:25 moritz_ [particle]1: you can, with embedded PIR
16:25 rodi Now that rakudo supports embedded PIR,
16:25 [particle]1 right, sorry, i meant pure perl 6 of course
16:25 rodi is there any notion that these should start merging soon?
16:25 [particle]1 yes
16:26 [particle]1 you're welcome to try :)
16:26 rodi heh
16:26 * rodi forks
16:26 rodi what the hell.
16:26 [particle]1 i've written some Str builtins in p6, but they're not handy atm for commit
16:26 [particle]1 oh, right. Str.perl
16:27 [particle]1 wait, maybe it was Int.perl.
16:27 [particle]1 yeah, that's what it was.
16:27 [particle]1 wanna write Str.printf soon
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16:36 diakopter I don't understand what assigning to $::ACTIONS does
16:37 diakopter oh, a package global?
16:37 alester moritz++ !!! http://rakudo.org/status
16:38 diakopter I'd be curious to see another metric on that graph
16:39 diakopter the green/red/blue/yellow measures adjusted for increases in the gray measure
16:41 diakopter (since that would show when and how many items move from fail/todo/regr to pass
16:41 diakopter )
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16:42 dalek rakudo: f6cdf9b | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
16:42 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 317 files, 7121 passing, 0 failing
16:42 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​6cdf9bd3af2e27b574a0f1727cfc15fe14e1a08
16:43 diakopter (assuming that no tests are ever removed from spec)
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16:46 TimToady diakopter: it should be thought of as a context variable, but Perl 5 can only emulate context vars with local currently
16:47 diakopter if I didn't know any better, I'd suspect STD/Cursor is about to get action callbacks :P
16:52 moritz_ alester: do you think we should link to it from the front page?
16:52 alester you mean up in the menu?
16:53 moritz_ yes
16:53 alester done
17:15 TimToady diakopter: it already had callbacks, which is how viv works.  this is just an interface change
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17:25 diakopter ok. I guess I was hinting that lwall++ might be committing actions for an interpreter soon. ;)
17:30 TimToady I'm not actually much interested in doing that.  If I did anything with it near term, it would be to translate gimme5 to viv.
17:30 TimToady there are plenty of other interpreters in the works, and I don't care to compete, if only because would be perceived as the automatic winner :)
17:31 diakopter lol
17:31 TimToady bad enough that I'm claiming the standard parser
17:32 TimToady and might have to claim standard Setting if the various current efforts don't converge
17:32 diakopter well, the Setting becomes the bootstrapped compiler eventually anyway
17:33 TimToady just trying to get other people to do my work :)
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17:51 pugs_svn r25726 | putter++ | [elfparse] Move EXPR into std.pm.
18:08 pugs_svn r25727 | pmichaud++ | Fix a couple of typos, redirect "mailing lists" link to perl6-specific lists.
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18:10 pugs_svn r25728 | pmichaud++ | Add a link to the Rakudo wiki (on github).
18:12 pmichaud good afternoon, folks.
18:12 PerlJam buenos tardes pmichaud
18:12 diakopter howdy
18:13 pmichaud yes, it seems I'm often tardy.
18:13 pmichaud Good work to everyone who's been updating rakudo.org, perl6-projects.org, etc.  Exciting stuff.
18:15 moritz_ thanks ;-)
18:15 pmichaud anyone know how to create a "permanent top-posted page" on rakudo.org?
18:16 pmichaud i.e., some content that always remains at the top regardless of later posts or edits?
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18:34 diakopter pmichaud: check "Promoted to front page" and "Static on front page"
18:36 pmichaud diakopter: thanks!
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18:51 pmichaud I'm guessing I don't have those privileges.
18:51 pmichaud or I don't know where to look.
18:52 pmichaud I'll go ahead and create the page first, though.
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18:57 mncharity ooooo, spiffy http://perl6-projects.org/ and /topic.
18:58 Topic for #perl6is now http://perl6-projects.org/ | nopaste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | evalbot: 'perl6: say 3;' | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/ | ~290 days 'til Xmas
18:58 [particle]1 pmichaud: how about a git.rakudo.org with a redirect?
19:00 literal how is augment different from monkey patching? is the augmented version only visible in its surrounding lexical scope?
19:12 pugs_svn r25729 | putter++ | [elfparse] Discarded Match variants.  rx { } code blocks emitted inline.
19:12 pmichaud [particle]: sounds great to me -- andy controls the domain, though.
19:12 alester particle: Add it to the todo list
19:13 alester and what you'd want it to redirect to
19:13 pmichaud probably http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo, I would think.
19:14 alester just add a note, and I'll get to it.
19:14 pmichaud I think we can remove "current test results" from the todo list now.  moritz++
19:14 alester Then do that, and put it at the bottom of the page in the "stuff we did" list.
19:15 pmichaud done.
19:16 pmichaud oh, also "state of rakudo" is done.
19:19 TimToady literal: no, augment changes the existing class.  you can use 'my class is Other' to get the other behavior, after all
19:21 literal so the "use MONKEY_PATCHING;" is gone or is it different somehow?
19:23 [particle]1 lazyweb++ beat me to it :)
19:24 TimToady you still need to "use MONKEY_PATCHING" to enable the use of augment or supersede
19:24 TimToady we try to make it difficult
19:27 TimToady we believe in aping, not monkeying
19:29 ruoso I had just now realized that "Foo::Bar::Baz" makes it really difficult to lexically redefine that name
19:30 TimToady why do you think that?
19:30 ruoso because that means
19:30 TimToady the current lexical scope may also have a Foo::Bar:Baz
19:30 TimToady and it will be found in preference to the global one
19:30 ruoso take package Foo, look for the package Bar inside it, then look for the package Baz inside the later
19:31 TimToady current STD algorithm: find Foo looking outward in lexical scopes, the upward in package scopes.
19:31 TimToady only after you have found Foo do you think about the Bar::Baz part
19:32 TimToady though I suppose I could be argued into the other position
19:32 ruoso yes
19:32 ruoso does that mean "use" needs to create a new full package hierarchy in the lexical scope?
19:33 TimToady but "find me the closest Foo that happens to contain Bar::Baz seems rather perilous
19:33 ruoso hmm
19:33 TimToady not if Foo is just an alias
19:33 ruoso but then you'll get a lot of packages you didn't ask for
19:33 TimToady and nearly all short names will be aliases to long names in any case
19:34 TimToady eh, but they're all in Foo
19:34 ruoso but you didn't ask for Foo
19:34 ruoso you asked for Foo::Bar::Baz
19:35 TimToady but Bar and Baz don't pollute my namespace
19:35 TimToady only the Foo namespacew
19:35 ruoso and you'll get Foo::Boing::Boing without any notice, as long as someone already loaded that module
19:35 TimToady so?
19:35 ruoso I thought that was one of the things we were trying to fix
19:35 TimToady what's to fix?
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19:36 ruoso so I can use a different version of Foo::Boing::Boing
19:36 ruoso lexically speaking
19:36 ruoso then I don't need to monkey patch anything
19:38 TimToady then ask for a different version of Foo::Boing::Bong, and it should install it in your own Foo.  perhaps what we need is a way to pull things in on demand from higher variants of Foo
19:38 TimToady if not found in my Foo
19:39 ruoso hmm...
19:40 ruoso but if Foo is aliased to GLOBAL::Foo
19:40 [particle]1 how do i augment a :auth<cpan> flavor of Foo inside class Foo :auth<mine> ?
19:40 ruoso it will install there
19:40 ruoso [particle]1, same problem I'm trying to deal here
19:41 [particle]1 yeah, i'm trying to put it in perl 6 syntax, to expose the problem
19:41 TimToady my class or our class will create a local Foo
19:41 [particle]1 what is the default :auth?
19:41 TimToady oh, something like http://www.perl.org
19:41 ruoso the problem is not on the declaration side
19:42 ruoso but on the "use" side
19:42 ruoso so I can "use Foo::Boing::Boing :auth<mine>" in a lexical scope
19:42 ruoso the problem is
19:42 ruoso if Foo is an alias to GLOBAL::Foo
19:43 ruoso it will install that in the global namespace
19:43 ruoso which is not the intended here
19:43 TimToady then don't do the use in the GLOBAL package  :P
19:43 ruoso it's nto the use that is there
19:44 ruoso it's the class declaration
19:44 ruoso class Foo { } in a package
19:44 ruoso will cause it to be in GLOBAL::Foo
19:44 ruoso class Foo::Bar::Baz { } in a file
19:44 ruoso s/package/file/
19:44 TimToady only if it's the first declaration in a file
19:44 ruoso which is the case I'm trying to address
19:44 TimToady 'kay
19:45 ruoso so if I "use Foo::Bar::Baz"
19:45 ruoso it will alias Foo
19:45 ruoso to the Foo on that file
19:45 ruoso which happens to be GLOBAL::Foo
19:45 ruoso if I later "use Foo::Boing::Boing :auth<mine>"
19:45 ruoso and that file has a "my class"
19:46 ruoso (which means it don't register itself in GLOBAL::)
19:46 ruoso it will insert into my locally aliased Foo
19:46 ruoso which happens to be GLOBAL::Fo
19:46 ruoso so Foo::Boing::Boing will end up appearing in GLOBAL
19:47 ruoso one solution I can thikn
19:48 ruoso is that "use" always create a new local hierarchy, instead of binding the first package in the name
19:48 ruoso so...
19:48 ruoso "use Foo::Bar::Baz"
19:48 ruoso will create a local Foo, with a local Bar, that has an alias in Baz that points to the actual package there
19:49 ruoso so Foo::Bar::Baz would be the same as GLOBAL::Foo::Bar::Baz, as expected
19:49 ruoso but then Foo::Boing::Boing won't appear in GLOBAL
19:50 ruoso of course that only works if you never "use Foo;"
19:50 ruoso which means it's a bad solution
19:50 TimToady treat package name as single string in lex scope maybe
19:50 ruoso unless..
19:51 ruoso unless we use pmuria's idea
19:51 ruoso and always clone the package when importing
19:51 TimToady MY::<Foo::Bar::Baz> ::= alias
19:52 TimToady well, I need to go to work--will backlog
19:52 diakopter work-- indeed
19:52 ruoso that basically means... namespace is not hierarchical...
19:52 ruoso it's a plain list ?
19:52 ruoso s/list/hash/
19:54 TimToady would also have to search hierarchically, I suspect
19:54 TimToady this may be wrong any way we decide :)
19:54 TimToady bbl &
19:56 ruoso in which case would the hiearchical search be needed?
19:57 ruoso hmmm
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19:59 diakopter i'm finding it difficult to follow the scenario w/o test cases
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20:03 pmichaud fwiw, the lexical scoping of namespaces has always been a bit opaque to me... but I figured it was just that I hadn't studied it enough.
20:03 pmichaud looks like you've traversed the same "Huh?" questions that I was having :-|
20:06 ruoso pmichaud, I guess we're going to end with a plain namespace after all
20:06 ruoso the major implication to that seems to be
20:06 ruoso module Foo { module Bar { class Baz  { } } }
20:07 pmichaud where "plain namespace" means "non-hierarchical"?  Or did you mean something else?
20:07 ruoso plain as non-hierarchical, yes
20:08 pmichaud I think I'll hold judgement and hope another answer is found.  A ton of stuff in PCT, PGE, and Parrot has been predicated on hierarchical namespaces.
20:09 pmichaud Sadly, I started out by doing non-hierarchical as an early simplification, then had to go through various evolutions to become hierarchical.
20:10 ruoso but I don't really see other good solution
20:10 ruoso otherwise we loose the lexical meaning of "use"
20:10 ruoso that...
20:10 ruoso or we drop support for globals at all
20:11 pmichaud agreed, the two had never melded well in my head.
20:11 ruoso and every "use" implies in a new clone of the package
20:11 pmichaud that's going to be ugly for pre-compiled stuff.
20:11 ruoso yeah... we would need a lot of cow
20:11 pmichaud at least in Parrot.
20:14 ruoso I think I'm starting to like the idea of dropping support for globals
20:14 ruoso of course GLOBAL:: would still be there
20:15 ruoso and you would still be able to access GLOBAL::Foo::Bar::Baz
20:15 ruoso but without the GLOBAL:: in the front, you would always get a local copy
20:15 pmichaud feels like PHP somehow.  :-)
20:16 ruoso it does?
20:16 pmichaud $GLOBAL['some global value']
20:16 pmichaud the notion of "superglobals"  (special names that are imported into every package)
20:16 pmichaud etc.
20:16 ruoso hmm... I think that goes into the opposite direction
20:17 ruoso nothing GLOBAL gets aliased in your package
20:17 ruoso and every package you "use" is private to you
20:17 ruoso but if you really want to use globals,
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20:17 ruoso the GLOBAL:: namespace is still there for you
20:18 pmichaud did we ever get resolution on captures, return, and the like?  I didn't see it in the scrollback.
20:18 ruoso pmichaud, I saw the scrollback... but we got no resolution
20:19 ruoso but anyway... I think I'm really liking the 'use clones packages' solution
20:26 pmichaud I'm now confused about the meaning of a Capture in item context.  A Capture in item context is... itself?
20:27 pmichaud (going with the "every object in item context is just itself" meme)
20:28 ruoso that was already reverted in IRC
20:29 ruoso not yet reverted in the spec, it seems
20:29 pmichaud so, a Capture in item context is what now?
20:29 ruoso if a capture contains only a single argument (named or positional) it returns that item in item context
20:29 ruoso otherwise it returns itself
20:29 pmichaud okay.
20:29 pmichaud do you know where that is in the irc logs?
20:29 ruoso so "return a => 1" makes it a pair
20:29 ruoso pmichaud, hmm... actually it was in p6l
20:29 ruoso "new Capture behavior"
20:30 ruoso "return 1" makes it a num
20:30 pmichaud I thought I read through that thread... I must've missed that.
20:30 ruoso I think I sent the idea in the first email with the subject
20:30 ruoso and TimToady agreed in his direct reply to that
20:32 pmichaud okay, I see it now.
20:33 pmichaud thanks.
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21:19 pmichaud in what sense are private method calls "private"?
21:19 pmichaud simply by convention of the !, or something else enforcing it also?
21:20 ruoso pmichaud, it doesn't participate in regular dispatch
21:20 ruoso you need to call it with an special syntax...
21:21 ruoso class Foo { method !bar { }; mathod baz { self.bar } } # FAIL
21:21 pmichaud so, there's a private method dispatcher?
21:21 ruoso yes
21:21 pmichaud okay.
21:21 ruoso self!bar
21:21 pmichaud and it doesn't do inheritance or stuff like that, I guess?
21:21 ruoso exactly
21:22 pmichaud so, we have  subroutine dispatch, method dispatch, and private dispatch
21:22 ruoso yse
21:22 pmichaud any others I'm forgetting?
21:23 ruoso hmmm... not that I remember
21:26 [particle]1 since ops are subs, no
21:26 * pmichaud prepares to do some jnthn++ code refactoring again.  :-|
21:32 ruoso I guess meta-ops might have a different dispatch
21:33 [particle]1 can you define your own meta-op?
21:33 pmichaud sure.
21:33 [particle]1 i can't remember that new bit of spec
21:33 ruoso well, you need a custom grammar, I thnk
21:33 ruoso but you still can do it
21:34 * ruoso later &
21:35 pmichaud for example, the 'R' operator is infix_prefix_meta_operator:<R>
21:35 [particle]1 ah, infix_prefix_meta. sweet.
21:35 pmichaud STD says that X is infix_circumfix_meta_operator, but I suspect it's now supposed to be infix_prefix_meta_operator
21:36 [particle]1 i bet you're right
21:36 [particle]1 i heard perl6
21:36 [particle]1 *heart
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21:58 mncharity "happiness is a working operator precedence parser"
21:59 literal haha
22:08 pugs_svn r25730 | putter++ | [elfparse] /<comp_unit>/ parses '2+3*4'.
22:08 pugs_svn r25730 | putter++ | std.pm: unpod infixish.  analysis.pm: bugfix - RxAlt branches get separate "have I seen this subrule multiple times" counters.  emit5.pm: run coerce(Match) during matching instead of afterward.
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22:27 mncharity joys of STD.pm :my-ness next.  code slow or big, choose one.  another day.  then onwards to parsing 'say 3'.
22:27 mncharity g'night all. &
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22:46 pugs_svn r25731 | lwall++ | [STD] infix_circumfix_meta_operator:<X> should be infix_prefix, pmichaud++
22:46 pugs_svn r25731 | lwall++ | [STD] all non-transparent metas have transparent precedence, oops!
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