Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-04-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 bacek_ joined #perl6
00:18 skids A where {...} would seem the appropriate perl6 syntax for Contextual::Return
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03:42 meppuru good night
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04:13 s1n how does submethod differ from using 'my method'?
04:15 dukeleto can someone point me in the right direction regarding NCI with Rakudo/Parrot? Is there a document describing how to add bindings to a third-party library via NCI ?
04:23 bacek_ dukeleto: docs/pdds/draft/pdd16_native_call.pod in parrot
04:23 bacek_ dukeleto: also examples/nci in parrot can give some... erm.. examples :)
04:26 dukeleto bacek: thanks, I didn't look in examples for some dumb reason ...
04:29 bacek_ dukeleto: what you are trying to bind?
04:32 dukeleto bacek: Oh, I have lots of things in mind, but GSL is the first. It is a fairly large library, but I already have a large test suite in Perl 5 for Math::GSL that could be hijacked
04:34 bacek_ dukeleto: looks great.
04:34 dukeleto i have made a new trac ticket at https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/531 to decide on a pilot/co-pilot for Parrot-related affairs this summer
04:36 * bacek_ will never apply for this :)
04:36 dukeleto bacek: thanks. if parrot had GSL bindings, than there is the possibility for any language using Parrot to get GSL bindings "for free.
04:36 bacek_ I've got enough manager's responsibility at $work...
04:36 dukeleto bacek: yeah, just a general notice for the channel, wasn't directed at you or anything :)
04:37 dukeleto that is pretty cool, since every dynamic language I know of that has GSL bindings put a lot of sweat, blood and tears into making it happen.
04:38 bacek_ ...one ring to bind them all... :)
04:38 dukeleto exactly
04:46 s1n frioux|home: ping
04:47 s1n frew|work: ping
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05:11 s1n if i wanted to lock a method, i.e. make it closed, is there any such way for allowing subclasses from inheriting but not augmenting?
05:11 s1n that is, a method in a class
05:12 s1n i see the closed/nonfinal pragmas, but i'd really like perl method control
05:12 s1n s/perl/per/
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06:41 moritz_ rakudo: say {$^a + $^b}.arity
06:41 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«2␤»
06:49 moritz_ rakudo: say {$^a + $^b}.(2, 3, 4)
06:49 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 2 params expected␤current instr.: '_block20' pc 104 (EVAL_19:55)␤»
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07:30 Matt-W Morning
07:30 moritz_ good morning
07:30 mikehh Matt-W: good morning
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09:31 bacek good evening
09:32 * bacek just used last century technology.
09:32 bacek I've faxed CLA :)
09:39 Matt-W wow
09:39 Matt-W fax
09:39 Matt-W I remember thinking fax machines were really cool
09:43 bacek I'm just was too bored to understand how to scan-to-pdf...
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10:54 ihrd hi there
10:54 ihrd rakudo: say /./ ~~ Regex
10:54 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«0␤»
10:54 ihrd rakudo say /./ ~~ Code
10:55 ihrd rakudo: say /./ ~~ Code
10:55 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«1␤»
10:56 ihrd why /./ ~~ Regex fail? this is bug or I miss something?
10:57 jnthn ihrd: Waiting on some (probably coming soon) PGE changes to be able to fix that.
10:58 ihrd do you need ticket?
10:59 jnthn I *think* we already have one.
11:03 bacek moritz_: why you marked http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=62730 as "stalled", not "closed"?
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11:08 moritz_ bacek: my mistake
11:10 bacek moritz_: np. I closed it :)
11:13 * bacek sometimes hates masak...
11:13 bacek It was less than 250 tickets couple of weeks ago. Now it 289!
11:16 jnthn masak++
11:18 jnthn I'll try and cut that down by a few tomorrow.
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11:37 moritz_ bacek++
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11:58 ruoso Hello!
12:01 * moritz_ moans because he can't write closures in C++
12:05 sbp anybody work on rakudo.org here?
12:05 sbp "documentation" on the home page body text links to how-to-get-rakudo
12:05 sbp rather than the documentation
12:05 ruoso moritz_, there is a library that provides closures in C
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12:07 moritz_ sbp: thanks, fixed
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13:47 sbp "pointy blocks ( -> $foo { ... } )" (implemented)
13:47 sbp http://rakudo.org/status
13:47 sbp well, with -> $a or $^a, certainly, but:
13:48 sbp rakudo: for ('abc', 'def', 'ghi') -> { say $_ }
13:48 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
13:48 sbp is that a known bug? I tried here:
13:48 sbp http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Sea​rch/Simple.html?q=-%3E+%24_+rakudo
13:48 sbp but no apparent report of it
13:48 sbp (or is my code simply wrong?)
13:48 moritz_ what's wrong with it?
13:48 moritz_ you declare explicitly that your block doesn't want a parameter
13:49 sbp well, as I understand it -> { ... } means that $_ can be used much like $^a would be
13:49 moritz_ so it gets none
13:49 sbp hmm
13:49 moritz_ no, that would be { ... } without the arrow in front
13:49 sbp oh, hmm. I could've sworn I read about -> { $_ } for this somewhere...
13:49 sbp thanks
13:50 sbp rakudo: for ('abc', 'def', 'ghi') { say $_ }
13:50 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«abc␤def␤ghi␤»
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13:52 sbp moritz_: if '-> { }' explicitly decares that the block doesn't want a parameter, how come $^a can be used therein? does $^a override the explicit declaration that you don't want parameters?
13:52 moritz_ sbp: it can't
13:53 moritz_ rakudo: for <abc def ghi> -> { say $^a }
13:53 sbp oh, you're right. sorry; I'd used for (...) { ... } in my test without even realising
13:53 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«Cannot use placeholder var in block with signature. at line 1, near " }"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:83)␤»
13:56 sbp moritz_: so is this wrong? 'while something() -> { ... $^thing ... }' - S04
13:56 moritz_ sbp: I'd say so
13:57 moritz_ @ask TimToady S04: while something() -> { ... $^thing ... } # should the arrow be removed here?
13:57 lambdabot Consider it noted.
13:57 moritz_ but I'm never quite sure
13:57 sbp heh, thanks
13:57 moritz_ because the synopsis are a large and complex beast
13:58 ruoso std: for 1,2,3 -> { say $^a }
13:58 sbp aye. I can only find one other example for -> { ... }:
13:58 sbp lives_ok -> { $foo.x[0] = 3 }, "Array initialized in auto-constructor is not unwritable...";
13:58 p6eval std 26041: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed block␤Placeholder variable $^a cannot override existing signature ( ) at /tmp/YXtWE3F5tP line 1:␤------> [32mfor 1,2,3 -> { say $^[31ma }[0m␤    expecting desigilname␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
13:58 sbp — t/spec/S12-construction/construction.t lines 7–67
13:59 ruoso moritz_, I think that answers your question ;)
13:59 sbp not entirely sure what's going on there. what is the use case in general for declaring that you *don't* want parameters?
13:59 moritz_ ok
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14:00 ruoso sbp, to fail if anyone tries to send one?
14:00 ruoso rakudo: -> { say 'live' }.(123);
14:00 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«live␤»
14:00 ruoso oops
14:00 ruoso hmm
14:00 ruoso rakudo: -> { say $_ }.(123);
14:00 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
14:01 ruoso hmm... for sure a rakudobug
14:01 moritz_ ruoso: care to submit?
14:01 ruoso sure...
14:02 ruoso rakudo: sub foo() {}; foo(123);
14:03 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c:  ( no output )
14:03 ruoso hmm
14:03 ruoso the bug is more generic than that
14:03 pugs_svn r26042 | moritz++ | [S04] fixed illegal construct, sbp++
14:04 ruoso rakudo: sub foo() { say @_[0] }; foo(123)
14:04 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«123␤»
14:04 ruoso rakudo: -> { say @_[0] }.(123);
14:04 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«123␤»
14:06 ruoso am I right to think that both cases above should mean an empty signature instead of the default signature?
14:07 * ruoso just submitted rakudobug
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14:11 ruoso moritz_, #64344 if you want to add something
14:12 moritz_ ruoso: thanks
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14:20 ruoso rakudo: sub foo() {}; say &foo.signature.perl
14:20 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«:()␤»
14:20 pmichaud Parrot isn't able to throw an exception for zero-parameter functions.
14:20 pmichaud I.e., if a sub is declared as having zero arguments, Parrot silently accepts multiple arguments.
14:20 ruoso but where is @_ coming from?
14:21 pmichaud ah, that's likely a bug, yes.
14:21 pmichaud I'd have to check.
14:21 ruoso PhatEddy has pointed me in pvt that this looks similar to 56366
14:22 ruoso but I thought it would be different because it's not just failing to check empty signatures
14:22 ruoso it's implying the default signature in empty signatures...
14:22 pmichaud right -- in a couple of places we've added code to explicitly check for arguments passed to zero-arg subs.
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14:22 pmichaud as far as default signature in empty signatures... I'll have to check.
14:23 ruoso I mean... considering :(*@_, *%_) is the default signature
14:23 pmichaud right now it appears that Rakudo treats any use of @_ as meaning "add a slurpy param"
14:23 ruoso hmm... is that spec?
14:24 pmichaud Yes.
14:24 pmichaud S06:154
14:25 pmichaud oh wait, that's for placeholders.
14:27 pmichaud okay, we'll have to add some code for fixups.
14:28 pmichaud that's likely to be a bit challenging
14:28 pmichaud { @_ }     # uses outer @_
14:28 pmichaud { $^a; @_ }    # has @_ as a parameter
14:29 pmichaud { @_;  $^a }   # has @_ as a parameter.... but we can't determine that until we see the $^a placeholder.
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14:30 ruoso { $^a; @_ } must use outer @_ as well
14:30 pmichaud no, that's not what S06 says.
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14:31 pmichaud (S06:154)
14:31 ruoso ouch
14:31 ruoso hmm
14:31 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { say $^a; say @_ }; say &foo.signature.perl
14:31 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«:(Any $a)␤»
14:32 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { say $^a; say @_ }; say &foo.signature.arity # most important, actually
14:32 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«Could not locate a method 'arity' to invoke on class 'Signature'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15621 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
14:33 pmichaud rakudo:  sub foo { say $^a; say @_ };  say &foo.arity;
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14:33 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:34 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { say $^a; say @_ }; foo(1,2,3);
14:34 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«1␤23␤»
14:34 ruoso hmmm
14:34 ruoso that sounds weird
14:35 sbp rakudo: sub foo { say @_; say $^a }; foo(1,2,3);
14:35 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«23␤1␤»
14:36 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { say $^a;  }; foo(1,2,3);
14:36 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'foo' pc 91 (EVAL_17:52)␤»
14:36 ruoso ok...
14:36 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { say $^a; say @_ }; say &foo.signature.perl;
14:36 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { say $^a; }; say &foo.signature.perl;
14:36 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«:(Any $a)␤»
14:36 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«:(Any $a)␤»
14:37 ruoso these two were supposed to have different signatures...
14:37 ruoso as per S06:154
14:38 skids hrm should .arity return a range?
14:38 moritz_ no, .arity is only for required
14:38 moritz_ .count is for optional
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14:41 PhatEddy So if 64344 stands as a bug it would seem to be distinguished from 56366 by its use of @_ which might be worth a comment and perhaps even a subject change for the former?
14:43 ruoso well... the bug 64344 points is the generation of *@_ even without any other placeholder parameters...
14:44 ruoso 56366 is about the innability to check empty signatures...
14:44 PhatEddy rakudo: say rand(999)
14:44 p6eval rakudo 78cb4c: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed - 0 params expected␤current instr.: 'die' pc 15621 (src/builtins/control.pir:204)␤»
14:45 PhatEddy isn't the @_ the cause of the innability to check empty signatures?
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14:51 pmichaud No, @_ isn't the cause.  It's a Parrot bug.
14:52 pmichaud (for those functions that have been written in PIR)
14:52 pmichaud actually, it's a Parrot bug in general.
14:52 PhatEddy the subject of 64344 is "empty signatures"
14:53 ruoso PhatEddy, well... the bug is related to empty signatures ;)
14:53 ruoso maybe that can be narrowed down a bit more
14:53 dalek rakudo: e5f4a34 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
14:53 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 340 files, 8049 passing, 0 failing
14:53 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​5f4a34b273511f5c3c5a0ad650943fcccc4827f
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15:02 PhatEddy rakudo: sub foo() { }; foo("abc")
15:02 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3:  ( no output )
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15:02 PhatEddy rakudo: class A { method foo() { } }; A.foo("abc")
15:02 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;A;foo' pc 117 (EVAL_21:61)␤»
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15:28 diakopter pugs: say "TECO reborn"
15:28 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«TECO reborn␤»
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15:34 * ruoso later &
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16:41 PhatEddy rakudo: class A {method foo() {say "hello"}}; A.new.foo()
16:41 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:41 PhatEddy rakudo: class A {method foo() {say "hello"}}; A.new.foo("abc")
16:41 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (3) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;A;foo' pc 129 (EVAL_21:62)␤»
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19:23 zev rakudo: sqrt(9) + 1
19:23 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3:  ( no output )
19:23 zev rakudo: say sqrt(9) + 1
19:23 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3: OUTPUT«4␤»
19:23 zev rakudo: say sqrt (9) + 1
19:23 p6eval rakudo e5f4a3: OUTPUT«3.16227766016838␤»
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19:31 moritz_ why am I sick of junction discussions on p6l?
19:34 literal heh
19:35 literal maybe because there's no clear resolution to the questions yet?
19:37 jnthn It feels to me more like, there's a clear design, but people don't like it.
19:37 jnthn erm
19:37 jnthn *some* people don't like it
19:38 diakopter I think this squeaky wheel might need some grease.
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20:09 zev if anyone out there wants to watch the talk that Larry is giving at MIT this afternoon, you can follow a link from http://sipb.mit.edu/projec​ts/talks/2009/larry_wall/ in about 10 minutes
20:10 zev I believe there will also be a recording afterwards
20:11 literal cool
20:11 jnthn nice
20:12 brunoV zev++
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20:30 pmichaud alas, can't see the MIT video :-|
20:30 pmichaud oh well, I'm probably too busy anyway.
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20:31 dukeleto can anybody add some meat to which parts of the Perl 6 test suite need to be worked on at http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl5/index.cgi?gsoc_2009_projects ?
20:31 dukeleto it would be much appreciated
20:32 dukeleto or a few links to mailing list discussions which talk about it
20:32 zev it just got better
20:32 zev direct link: rtsp://ten-streaming.mit.edu:554/2009/04/wall.sdp
20:33 moritz_ dukeleto: I can do that
20:34 dukeleto moriz: that would be awesome, i will then tweet it
20:34 moritz_ zev: I get the video, but no audio
20:35 zev interesting
20:35 moritz_ Audio: no sound
20:35 PerlJam I got sound
20:35 PerlJam Uri's talking now.
20:36 * jnthn has sound
20:36 pmichaud oh.  my Firefox doesn't understand rtsp:
20:36 moritz_ oh, I get audio with vlc, and video with mplayer
20:36 PerlJam yeah, I'm using mplayer.  FF is buggy for me.
20:36 pmichaud yes, I get it now.
20:36 pmichaud thanks.
20:36 pmichaud (mplayer++ ftw)
20:36 zev cool
20:37 pmichaud I wonder if #perl is on a screen somewhere.  Hi, Larry!
20:37 pmichaud nice hat.
20:37 PerlJam heh, I was just thinking that
20:37 moritz_ well, now I have two applications open
20:37 PerlJam makes him look swash-buckling.
20:38 PerlJam I expect indiana jones type music to be playing
20:38 jnthn hat win!
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20:39 dukeleto where are the slides?
20:39 pmichaud on his laptop?
20:39 pmichaud :-)
20:39 dukeleto and who is humping the speaker?
20:39 PerlJam ah, someone heard us
20:40 dukeleto yay, slides!
20:40 moritz_ someone++
20:40 PerlJam but now where's the Larry?  :)
20:41 PerlJam This presentation is very takahshi it seems.
20:41 gravity joined #perl6
20:47 moritz_ dukeleto: I've added a few bullet points - is that a good start?
20:47 OuLouFu joined #perl6
20:50 dukeleto will check it out
20:51 moritz_ do you have specific candidates who are interested?
20:51 moritz_ if you have, they should contact me ;-)
20:52 ruoso joined #perl6
20:54 ruoso Heya
20:58 PerlJam heh!  Camelia makes an appearance!
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22:13 pmichaud note to people watching larry's talk (in real time):  to help perl 6 development, write perl 6 applications!  :-)
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22:14 jnthn :-)
22:15 jnthn pmichaud: Great to see you're digging back into PGE!
22:15 pmichaud yes, these are all things that have been on my back burner for a while as I dealt with other "more immediate" issues.
22:15 pmichaud I'm glad it's back on the front burner.
22:15 jnthn Same.
22:18 moritz_ write perl 6 applications - I fully agree :-)
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22:19 * jnthn will be Rakudo-daying tom^Wtoday :-)
22:19 pmichaud excellent.  Although I can't believe it's Wednesday already.  :-)
22:20 Tene where's larry talking?
22:20 jnthn I can't believe it's *April* already.
22:20 pmichaud Tene: MIT
22:20 * jnthn needs to start prepping for NPW.
22:20 pmichaud Tene: just finished (at least my stream of it did)
22:22 dukeleto yep, i enjoyed it very much
22:23 Tene Aw.
22:25 jnthn Yes, was good to watch.
22:25 jnthn Tene: I think video will be posted later also.
22:27 moritz_ it would be nice to have always the latest release announcement somewhere on rakudo.org
22:27 dukeleto indeed
22:29 Tene so, jnthn and pmichaud, any consensus on leave?
22:29 jnthn Tene: Did you read the discussion I think yesterday on that?
22:30 Tene For the past few days I've been offline.
22:30 Tene So, no.
22:31 Tene I've read it now.
22:31 jnthn http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-03-31#i_1028123
22:31 jnthn ah
22:31 jnthn :-)
22:34 jnthn It felt consensus-ish.
22:34 Tene Yes, I asked Larry whether you could catch leave exceptions, and he waffled for a bit, and then trailed off.
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22:37 Tene If Parrot is going to have block-exit stuff that we can use, then yes, that would be better.
22:38 Tene I was expecting to implement all of that myself.
22:38 Tene And if we're doing it ourselves, exceptions looks like the way to do it (when you have a hammer...)
22:40 pmichaud (latest release announcement)  I've asked how we can get news items to appear on the front page, but no response yet.
22:40 moritz_ :(
22:41 pmichaud I'll ask again and we'll give it a week and if no response we'll look into something more drastic.
22:41 jnthn pmichaud: I asked too about that.
22:44 pmichaud afk # kid soccer practice (I got called to coach today's practice at last minute)
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22:46 moritz_ I've sorta finished my next tidings post, but I'm so tired i'd better re-read it tomorrow morning before publishing it ;-)
22:46 Tene argh $realjob calls
22:46 Tene 'night moritz
22:47 jnthn Aye, I'll probably call it a night for now too... See you all tomorrow :-)
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23:48 cspencer if i'm writing a Perl 6 class and I wanted to be able to numify it (with the + prefix op), am i supposed to just defined a multi method called Num?

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