Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-04-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 cspencer i'm trying to move the shift method over from Range.pir -> Range.pm, but i'm getting a "shift_pmc() not implemented in class 'Range'" error when i do
00:05 cspencer is there any way of associating the P6 shift method with the shift_pmc vtable method?
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00:27 brunoV pdc, this is a personal suggestion. Before coding *anything* in perl, ask first if it's already been done. Most of the time, it has, and you only have to glue CPAN modules together.
00:30 pdc that sounds like it would ruin the fun!
00:31 brunoV pdc, the fun is in looking at your non-trivial program working after 15 minutes of CPAN shopping
00:31 literal "and if you must reinvent the wheel, try to invent a better one"
00:31 pdc I take your point though, and reinventing the wheel is something I should eventually stop doing. But in C at least, I quite like coding stuff which I could just import if I wanted
00:32 pdc good point brunoV. developing apps quicker would be great and is one reason I plan to learn a scripting lang
00:34 pdc but I use reinvention as learning experiences. Doing a lot of work yourself is (imo) a great way to really get to grips with a language. That's important in C and I should think it is even more so in Perl
00:36 pdc although I keep reading how you don't need to learn all of Perl to start writing useful code, just a small subset with what you need
00:40 brunoV pdc, also, I don't know if they've suggested this to you yet, but www.perlmonks.org is a great place to join, ask question and look to from time to time
00:41 pdc I've read about and briefly visited it, thanks
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02:03 pasteling "ZuLu" at 193.140.225.206 pasted "Gives "too few arguments passed"" (5 lines, 97B) at http://sial.org/pbot/35865
02:03 ZuLuuuuuu Hi, why this code gives "too few arguments passed"? http://sial.org/pbot/35865
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03:11 pugs_svn r26098 | diakopter++ | hgis
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03:33 szabgab on http://perlcabal.org/ shouldn't the links to feather point to perlcabal (shall I remove the hostname from those links?)
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04:20 mberends @tell masak 1) I like Configure.p6 because it resembles rakudo/Configure.pl and proto/lib/Configure.pm. 2) Copying Configure.pm into $project/lib is good 3) PERL6LIB->RAKUDO_DIR iffy, might lead to Rakudo abuse. 4) agree Configure->make autorun off by default, but prefer a prompt asking preference instead of editing Configure.pm (git pull clobbers). 5) PERL6LIB good idea, but 'export' is often preferred to 'env', must find out why.
04:20 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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05:09 s1n frioux|home: ping
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05:24 pasteling "mibbit" at 192.117.127.193 pasted "just trying" (1 line, 12B) at http://sial.org/pbot/35869
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06:51 masak howdy, #perl6
06:51 lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:51 masak @massage
06:51 lambdabot mberends said 2h 30m 49s ago: 1) I like Configure.p6 because it resembles rakudo/Configure.pl and proto/lib/Configure.pm. 2) Copying Configure.pm into $project/lib is good 3) PERL6LIB->RAKUDO_DIR
06:51 lambdabot iffy, might lead to Rakudo abuse. 4) agree Configure->make autorun off by default, but prefer a prompt asking preference instead of editing Configure.pm (git pull clobbers). 5) PERL6LIB good idea,
06:51 lambdabot but 'export' is often preferred to 'env', must find out why.
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06:54 mberends masak: good euro-morning!
06:54 masak morn'!
06:54 szabgab mmm
06:54 masak I'm composing a quick answer, but now I can tell you directly instead of via lambdabot :)
06:55 masak mberends: 1) I tend not to like '.p6' endings. executables are executables. 3) Rakudo abuse, in what way? 4) go right ahead; I don't fully understand, but it sounds good. 5) not sure we can use 'export' in this instance. I've tried.
06:57 masak by the way, I'm now dogfooding proto.
06:57 masak should lead to an avalanche of improvements.
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07:02 mberends masak: 1) let's meet in the middle with capitalized Configure 3) a) rakudo/ should not be a library dir in the long term, Test.pm is a homeless exception b) pointing PERL6LIB there establishes the wrong precendent that rakudo/ works as a library dir c) people able to but not understanding a) put more modules into rakudo/ 4) will do soon 5) will research
07:05 masak mberends: 1) deal. 3) agreed. I didn't think of it that way. let's do it your way, and complain loudly for a long-term solution.
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07:12 mberends masak: i've been offline about a week, but read most of the logs. keep up the dogfooding and proto improvements. Pod::Parser v2 passes 1 test ;)
07:13 masak mberends: thanks. yesterday was some short-and-sweet proto work, today will be Web.pm. good luck with Pod::Parser v2.
07:13 masak mberends: oh, and my sekkrit plan right now is to finish the Lobster, and then hook up November with HTTP::Server.
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07:26 mberends masak: now the sekkrit's out ;) that's HTTP::Daemon currently, but nvm. I'll mibbit in and out during $class this week :)
07:29 masak ah, I thought HTTP::Daemon and HTTP::Server were two different entities.
07:29 masak anyway, I'll attempt to tame the daemon today.
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08:19 jnthn morning, all(#perl6)
08:19 masak jnthn: marnin'.
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08:22 moritz_ OMG JUNCTIONS, wont't that autothread in some totally unpredictable way? :-)
08:24 masak moritz_: no, it won't compile due to the mismatched parenthesis :P
08:25 masak so we're safe, for now.
08:25 moritz_ :-)
08:27 masak mberends: I have a good mind to write a 'Perl 6 project Well-Thought-Out Practices' somewhere. but it's a bit of work to put everything into words, and I'm not sure it belongs in proto. it's more of a blog post.
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08:33 masak hm. I'm considering adding an 'all' pseudopackage to proto, which would expand to mean all Perl 6 projects. but do I want it to expand to all installed projects when updating, or do I want a separate 'installed' pseudopackage for that?
08:33 moritz_ the former
08:33 masak oki, good.
08:34 masak that one was my favourite.
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08:42 masak make some coffee, grab the newspaper, run './proto update all'... http://gist.github.com/90672
08:42 masak only works locally on my box right now.
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09:08 masak there, pushed.
09:09 masak now you can do './proto install all' as well. :)
09:09 szabgab OT, have any of you created screencast on linux ? I cannot manage to do it
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09:37 * Matt-W is getting twitchy, having not done anything on Form for a while
09:37 Matt-W I have plans, just... a lack of time
09:37 masak I know the feeling.
09:40 jnthn There exist people who don't have that feeling?
09:40 pugs_svn r26099 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fixed bug in interpreter
09:41 literal mberends: I believe export is preferred to env because export is the bash way while env is the csh (or some such) way
09:43 masak literal: no, I think that env is the sh-agnostic way.
09:43 literal could be
09:44 masak literal: but export does not work in this case.
09:44 masak because each &run call makes its own subshell.
09:45 masak hm. maybe if the export and the actual command were put in the same &run call...
09:45 masak that might actually work.
09:45 masak but I'd like a resource saying that export trumps env before changing anything. :)
09:46 moritz_ if it starts a new subshell anyway, can't you just do 'VAR=VALUE command'?
09:47 masak moritz_: that's what we currently do.
09:47 masak except I've been told that doing that _without_ putting an 'env' before is bash-specific, so I stick an 'env' before.
09:48 moritz_ ok
09:48 masak shell scripting is gnarly.
09:48 moritz_ which is why we love perl :-)
09:48 eiro hello guies
09:49 masak eiro: oh hai!
09:49 Matt-W Indeed there's a reason why we have Makefile.pl instead of Makefile.sh
09:49 Matt-W hi eiro
09:50 masak Matt-W: but the current well-thought-out practice is to have a Configure, written in Perl 6. :P
09:50 Matt-W yeah but the principle's the same :)
09:50 masak not many projects do that right now, though.
09:50 masak aye, same principle.
09:50 Matt-W I see it as more of a mid-term goal
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09:53 masak rakudo: print chr($_) for <20013 25991 65281>
09:53 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«中文!»
09:53 masak Rakudo++
09:54 jnthn .oO ( middle woman? )
09:54 masak the Perl 5 executable gives the same result, but complains about "Wide character" thrice.
09:54 Matt-W incomplete unicode fonts --
09:54 moritz_ Unicode++ UTF-8++ (I have no idea what these characters mean ;-)
09:55 moritz_ masak: start with the -CS option
09:55 literal masak: -CO :)
09:55 literal or that
09:55 literal Perl 5 likes to assume Latin 1
09:55 moritz_ perl -CS -wE 'print chr($_) for <20013 25991 65281>'
09:55 moritz_ (-E is a perl 5.10-ism)
09:55 masak jnthn: no, "Chinese (language)". 中 does indeed mean middle, and you understandably confused 文 with 女
09:56 literal moritz_: you're missing a qw there
09:56 moritz_ literal: no
09:56 moritz_ literal: <...> works in Perl 5 as well, for obscure reasons
09:56 literal oh right, as lons as you don't add some * and stuff
09:56 jnthn masak: Well, both look a bit like an ironing board....
09:56 literal long
09:56 moritz_ literal: actually it's a glob, but if you don't use meta characters like *, ?, {} etc it works
09:56 * moritz_ too slow ;-)
09:56 masak jnthn: the reason China names itself "the middle kingdoms" goes back to early times when the country was a small kingdom among many.
09:57 rgs perl -CS -wE 'say chr for <2{0013,5991} 65281>' # golf !
09:57 masak jnthn: I'm past the point where I see such visual similarities between different sinographs.
09:57 moritz_ rgs++
09:58 masak jnthn: the first has four strokes, the second has only three.
09:58 moritz_ if you want to golf, you can omit the -w and a space, obviously ;-)
09:58 literal rgs: "20013 25591" is actually shorter than "2{0013,5991}" :)
09:58 masak rgs++
09:58 masak literal: still, the idea is cool! :)
09:58 rgs well
09:58 moritz_ but it feels much more golfy ;-)
09:59 literal true
10:01 masak jnthn: will there be a Rakudo day this week?
10:01 jnthn masak: Samozrejme.
10:01 masak :)
10:01 * masak thought so
10:01 jnthn Probably Thu or Fri.
10:01 * Matt-W likes Rakudo Day
10:01 * Matt-W thinks everyone should have a Rakudo Day
10:02 Matt-W Or maybe a Perl 6 Day
10:02 masak every day is Perl 6 day!
10:04 jnthn Planning on typed arrays and hashes - or at least a good bit of progress towards them - for Tue or Wed.
10:04 masak nice.
10:05 masak Rakudo Whatever-we'll-call it will be the best release ever!
10:05 masak s:2nd/' '/-/;
10:06 moritz_ masak: so far every rakudo release was the best release ever, at that time ;-)
10:06 masak of course.
10:06 masak nothing says propaganda needs to be logical.
10:06 masak :P
10:07 moritz_ jnthn: cool. I just submitted an article which mentions them as not yet implemented; if you do it this week, I might still be able to remove that notice ;-)
10:08 masak http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/tidings-2009-04.html  # for those who want to read it
10:08 Matt-W typed arrays and hashes
10:08 Matt-W I thought that already worked...
10:09 moritz_ rakudo: my Int @a = <foo bar>; say @a[0]
10:09 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«get_iter() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 59 (EVAL_17:41)␤»
10:09 Matt-W oh dear
10:09 Matt-W that is bad
10:10 jnthn masak: BTW, on Chinese, I didn't study any of it at all for over a year and a half. :-( And I was quite depressed during the month I did spend trying to learn some, so little stuck.
10:10 jnthn Would like to have another shot at it sometime though. :-)
10:11 masak jnthn: Chinese is a big undertaking. needs virtually undivided attention. at least from me.
10:11 masak it's not that it's very hard, it's just... a complete, internally consistent set of Other Stuff. a bit like Haskell.
10:12 Matt-W I suspect it's slightly harder than Haskell
10:12 Matt-W Haskell doesn't have hundreds of different characters to learn to read :)
10:12 jnthn masak: Yeah, I don't see me being able to give it the time it'd need for serious progress for a while.
10:13 masak jnthn: I barely have the time to keep it fresh.
10:13 masak ...while also working half-time and studying other things.
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10:14 masak Matt-W: I think you're right; to the extent they are comparable, Haskell is easier. then again, I'd say _all_ programming languages are easier to learn than _all_ spoken languages.
10:14 Matt-W masak: I would agree
10:14 masak perhaps with some rare exceptions, like Dis and Toki Pona. :)
10:15 Matt-W languages for human communication are generally vastly more complicated
10:15 masak aye. even Esperanto is jarringly complex.
10:16 moritz_ so we'll invent a vastly more complex programming language, just to disprove the "natural languages are more cmplex" theory ;-)
10:16 jnthn I fear the complexity may be a required element of any natural language that's going to be successful in the mainstream.
10:16 jnthn (Constructed language, that is...)
10:16 Matt-W I think you need complexity in order to express the range of meanings which we use in everyday speech
10:17 jnthn Otherwise it may well lack the expressivity to make it good to use.
10:17 Matt-W Let alone in literature
10:17 masak jnthn: necessary, but not sufficient. exhibit A: all conlangs out there. :P
10:17 Matt-W There is a reason why so many synonyms survive in languages like English - because they don't mean *exactly* the same thing
10:17 masak Matt-W: and because people have one brain each.
10:17 sbp Toki Pona is no exception
10:17 moritz_ and because different people want to see different synonyms die ;-)
10:18 sbp the words are easy to learn
10:18 sbp but most things are not expressed with single words
10:18 sbp and in some of the larger units that you construct with them you can almost think of them as random phonemes, quite frankly
10:18 masak sbp: you have a point. Toki Pona does not express things more easily than other languages.
10:18 sbp right. like you need five or six words to say "duck"
10:18 Matt-W The concepts you want to express are just as complicated
10:18 sbp and even then it's not entirely distinguishable from swan, say
10:19 sbp (it's something like: bird which sits above water)
10:19 Matt-W Could you cast an analogy there between languages which use the Latin alphabet to construct words, and languages which use a much wider range of characters to represent entire syllables or words?
10:20 sbp yeah. there's a good page about this, hang on
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10:20 sbp Matt-W: http://www.zompist.com/yingzi/yingzi.htm
10:25 Matt-W sbp: that's really interesting, thanks
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10:52 masak rakudo: role Foo {}; role Bar {}; sub baz(Foo Bar $a) {}; say "should not be alive here before 6.0.0"
10:52 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«should not be alive here before 6.0.0␤»
10:52 * masak submits rakudobug
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10:59 jnthn masak++ # thanks, that's on my to deal with list
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11:01 masak with pleasure.
11:01 masak moritz_++ for blogging about it. I didn't have a complete overview of the situation before.
11:14 masak rakudo: $*IN.readline # should this one wait for user input?
11:14 p6eval rakudo 0310a3:  ( no output )
11:14 masak because it doesn't.
11:15 masak rakudo: my IO $a; $a.readline # mwhahaha.
11:15 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_bool()␤current instr.: 'parrot;IOIterator;' pc 6971 (src/classes/IO.pir:162)␤»
11:15 * masak submits rakudobug
11:17 masak rakudo: IO.readline # golf FTW
11:17 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_bool()␤current instr.: 'parrot;IOIterator;' pc 6971 (src/classes/IO.pir:162)␤»
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11:46 dalek rakudo: a04f610 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | build/Makefile.in:
11:46 dalek rakudo: insert newline in Makefile.in, as suggested on p6c
11:46 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a04f610fb3f6f77429bb7a35ed1613eda8900951
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11:48 jeremiah_ rakudo: say "Hello, my name is foo"
11:48 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«Hello, my name is foo␤»
11:48 jeremiah_ ^^ Gabor told me to say that.
11:50 masak rakudo: my $name = "jeremiah_"; say "hello, my name is $name"
11:50 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«hello, my name is jeremiah_␤»
11:52 jeremiah_ But my name really is foo.
11:52 masak oh, sorry.
11:52 masak rakudo: my $name = "foo"; say "hello, my name is $name"
11:52 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«hello, my name is foo␤»
11:53 jeremiah_ I am going to heckel you during your talk in Oslo masak
11:53 jeremiah_ :)
11:53 masak is that so?
11:53 jeremiah_ Although I think it is spelled heckle.
11:54 masak as long as you behave, I don't mind heckling.
11:54 jeremiah_ :)
11:54 jnthn Oh awesome does that apply to me too? ;-0
11:54 masak jnthn: er.
11:54 jeremiah_ Yes, I will heckle you too.\
11:54 jeremiah_ So sure, it applies.
11:54 jnthn jeremiah_: No no I meant could I heckel masak too.. ;-)
11:54 jnthn erm, however you spell it
11:54 masak :)
11:54 jnthn <- not a native English speaker, honest ;-)
11:55 masak allright, you can all heckle me. I'm sure I deserve it for some reason. :P
11:55 jeremiah_ What is your mother tongue? i386?
11:55 jnthn BBC Micro BASIC. ;-)
11:55 moritz_ so what does "heckle" mean?
11:55 jeremiah_ My mother tongue is cat.
11:56 jeremiah_ heckle means to harass
11:56 jnthn Did that make learning lolspeak easier? ;-)
11:56 jeremiah_ Usually performers on the stage get heckled by people in the audience.
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11:56 ihrd hi there
11:56 jeremiah_ jnthn: Well, yes. But my real accomplishment is translating Ulysses into cat.
11:56 jeremiah_ That was hard.
11:57 masak ihrd: OH HAI
11:57 moritz_ that's easy. `cat Ulysses.txt'
11:57 jeremiah_ heh
11:58 ihrd masak, HAI
11:59 masak ihrd: как дела?
12:00 jeremiah_ rakudo: use v6;
12:00 p6eval rakudo 0310a3:  ( no output )
12:01 jeremiah_ rakudo: use v6; say '1..2'; say 'ok 1';
12:01 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1..2␤ok 1␤»
12:08 moritz_ rakudo: say (:foo).value.perl
12:09 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:09 moritz_ rakudo: say (:!foo).value.perl
12:09 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«0␤»
12:09 ihrd masak, fine, I am working on me first patch for rakudo and this is make me happy :)
12:09 masak :)
12:09 * masak is patching Rakudo too
12:09 moritz_ ihrd++
12:14 * Matt-W likes to see happy people
12:14 masak happiness is like the GNU GPL: infectious.
12:16 moritz_ isn't it the other way round? ;-)
12:16 jnthn Yeah but so is flu. :-)
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12:22 stevenhirsch rakudo: say "hello world"
12:22 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«hello world␤»
12:25 masak hello, stevenhirsch.
12:25 stevenhirsch hi masak
12:25 * masak tips hat
12:25 stevenhirsch how are you today?
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12:27 masak stevenhirsch: sun is shining, I'm hacking Rakudo and coding Perl 6. I'd say pretty good. :)
12:27 masak stevenhirsch: and you?
12:27 stevenhirsch cool!  raining here in ny
12:27 Matt-W masak: ooh what are you hacking on?
12:28 masak Matt-W: sekkrit. :P
12:28 masak um, and don't backlog.
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12:34 masak for those who don't want to wait until NPW to heckle me, here's a patch that implements IO.ins: http://gist.github.com/90740
12:34 masak it passes all spectests, and produces the right results.
12:34 masak but I feel it's not very good PIR, so I post it here, waiting for some kind soul to review.
12:35 Matt-W masak: why does it have =item readline and then implement a method called 'ins'
12:35 masak Matt-W: fixed. :)
12:35 masak I saw that one too after posting.
12:36 masak the gist has been corrected, and the patch as well.
12:38 literal .ins ?
12:38 literal oh, a method, not a file extension
12:39 masak aye.
12:39 masak one that I feel I need now and then.
12:40 masak walk &
12:41 Matt-W masak: I can't comment on the PIR as my own PIR is dreadful
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12:41 moritz_ ah, is that Perl 6's $. ?
12:43 moritz_ the patch isn't very nice, but I don't know how to improve it ;-)
12:43 moritz_ except writing it in Perl 6, of course
12:43 moritz_ and have a private method inc_ins or so, and call that from pir
12:43 literal what does "ins" stand for? I read the Pod and I still don't get the name
12:44 moritz_ Industrial-strength Numeric counting-Solution
12:44 moritz_ short INS, or ins
12:44 moritz_ ;-)
12:45 literal if only the past tense of read were more distinguishable from its present tense in English
12:46 literal .recorded works, though
12:46 literal but that sounds more like something that's been written
12:47 moritz_ .read-past-tense ;-)
12:47 * moritz_ isn't up for serious discussions today
12:47 literal .has-read
12:48 moritz_ .I-HAS-READ
12:48 literal that would be the Perl6::LOLCAT grammar version
12:49 literal or...lolcat Setting
12:52 literal damn, github has cool graphs
12:55 jeremiah_ literal: URL?
12:55 jeremiah_ I likes me pretty graphs. :)
12:55 literal http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/graphs/impact
12:55 literal this for example
12:55 literal and other graphs there under the "Graphs" tab
12:55 jeremiah_ Whoah. That is cool.
12:58 moritz_ somehow I feel that overrepresents my impact
12:59 * masak back from walk
12:59 masak ok, so we agree that my patch is bad. :)
13:00 masak and I was wrong about the spectests -- it actually makes a few of them fail.
13:00 * masak investigates
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13:07 masak whoa... my patch introduces a really strange bug. :/
13:08 masak I do 'perl6 t/spec/S16-filehandles/io.rakudo', and after the last line '# FUDGED!', Rakudo re-prints the plan, '1..58'.
13:08 masak if I add an 'exit 0' at the end of the test file, it stops doing that.
13:08 * masak compiles to PIR and diffs
13:09 moritz_ rakudo: use Test; plan 1; isa_ok True, Bool::True
13:09 p6eval rakudo 0310a3:  ( no output )
13:10 jnthn masak: Show me the patch?
13:10 masak http://gist.github.com/90740
13:10 masak the PIR diff says I have an extra 'say' call at the end :/
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13:15 jnthn + $I0 = ins
13:15 jnthn + inc $I0
13:15 jnthn + ins = $I0
13:15 jnthn inc ins # should do it
13:15 masak it didn't.
13:15 jnthn Or even better perhaps
13:15 jnthn 'prefix:++'(ins)
13:15 masak because I didn't find a way to initialize it as 0.
13:16 masak and I got an error 'Undef mumble mumble inc'.
13:16 jnthn 'prefix:++'(ins) # should auto-viv
13:16 masak ok, trying that.
13:17 masak maybe I should follow moritz_++'s advice too, and put ins-inc'ing in a method...
13:17 moritz_ rakudo: say :!foo.value
13:17 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«0␤»
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13:41 masak feh, running the spectests takes a lot of time nowadays...
13:41 moritz_ yes
13:41 moritz_ I should really look into making it parallel again
13:42 masak again? what made it not parallel?
13:42 moritz_ the switch away from parrot's harness
13:42 masak oh.
13:44 PacoLinux for me, making the spectest on saturday took 29 mins, yesterday was nearby 70 mins
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13:45 masak next time I'll time it.
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13:48 jnthn Ouch. That's...quite an increase.
13:48 masak two thirds of the files in t/spec are listed in t/spectest.data.
13:49 moritz_ that's both good and bad
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13:49 moritz_ bad because it means we need many more tests
13:49 masak 348 out of 544.
13:49 * masak idly wonders if he could get a non-GSoC grant for writing S09 tests this summer
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13:50 literal you should apply for a TPF grant
13:50 moritz_ I guess the hague grants are limited to actualy implementation work
13:51 moritz_ but I'm not sure about the policy
13:51 masak moritz_: I think so too.
13:51 masak would be fun to apply for a Hague grant, if I found some niche of Rakudo where I felt I could really make a difference.
13:52 masak literal: maybe a TPF grant is the right answer for that. just going to finish my current one first. ;)
13:53 moritz_ "Grants will be made to projects which obviously and concretely advance the completion of a Perl 6 implementation. Other Perl 6 projects, while potentially very worthwhile, are not the focus of Hague grants."
13:53 moritz_ from http://www.perlfoundation.org/ian_hague_perl_6_development_grants
13:54 moritz_ that still leaves a bit space open for discussion
13:54 moritz_ if some implementors assert that thorough tests are vital for this area of implementation
13:55 masak maybe I could write tests and then help implement them.
13:56 masak jnthn: changing to 'prefix:++'(ins) worked fine, all spectests pass now. do I commit?
13:57 jnthn masak: Can you show me final patch you're about to commit?
13:58 masak certainly. hold on.
13:58 jnthn S09 - I am pondering filing a proposal.
13:58 jnthn To work on some implementation.
13:58 jnthn Once I'm done with my current grant.
13:58 jnthn Having test coverage work going on at the same time would to me at least seem a nice thing.
13:58 masak I think I would like writing those tests.
13:58 masak http://gist.github.com/90763
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14:02 jnthn I think your tests would make a harsh mistress. :-)
14:03 jnthn masak: Patch looks OK to me.
14:03 jnthn You could btw have written method ins in PIR
14:03 jnthn erm
14:03 jnthn in Perl6
14:03 jnthn method ins { $!ins }
14:03 masak I'll do that, and then commit.
14:05 moritz_ would a 'has $.ins' also work?
14:06 jnthn not here
14:06 moritz_ because it's used from PIR before?
14:06 jnthn well, it may if the stage 1 promised to never use them...
14:07 moritz_ which adds unwanted interdepencies, right
14:07 jnthn If we totally pull IO out of the stage 1, OTOH (which would be fine) then yes, that would work then.
14:07 jnthn Yeah, I'm trying to keep the S1 clean of dependencies on the setting.
14:07 jnthn Not entirely sucessfully though. :-(
14:08 moritz_ make spectest takes 23 minutes here
14:08 masak would .ins be 'is export' or not?
14:09 moritz_ masak: don't think so
14:09 jnthn think not
14:10 masak good, then I don't think so either.
14:10 moritz_ democractic coding ;-)
14:11 PerlJam When we we know how many slots TPF has for gsoc?
14:11 masak the tyrrany of the #perl6 majority. :)
14:11 PerlJam (or, if "we" already know, how many slots did TPF get? :)
14:11 literal close to April 20th probably
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14:21 jnthn OK, time for me to go to pm group
14:23 ihrd jnthn: bye!
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14:23 PerlJam jnthn: have fun!
14:23 jnthn Will do! :-)
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14:34 pmichaud good morning #perl6
14:35 PerlJam good morning Pm
14:37 masak hi pm
14:43 dalek rakudo: e83b2b8 | (Carl Masak)++ | src/ (2 files):
14:43 dalek rakudo: implemented IO.ins
14:43 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e83b2b8196eb091fde20ecd06c3b859bf2dfb85a
14:44 pmichaud (hague grants and tests) -- I think a case could be made that S09 tests are on the critical path.
14:47 literal masak: btw, what does "ins" stand for?
14:48 masak literal: the number of records (normally lines) that have been read in.
14:48 literal yes, but "ins" isn't a word :P
14:48 masak literal: neither is sprintf.
14:49 literal but it means something
14:49 moritz_ but it is short for "string print formatted" or so
14:49 literal is "ins" supposed to be a plural of "in" or something?
14:49 moritz_ that might be it
14:50 masak aye.
14:50 literal I would have gone for .nr (like Perl 5's $NR)
14:50 masak the alternatives were much worse, and then TimToady suggested 'ins'.
14:50 masak I immediately took a liking to it.
14:50 PerlJam literal: you mean like AWK's $NR  *shudder*
14:50 literal I guess
14:52 PerlJam masak: so ... does that mean there's an IO.outs in our futures?
14:53 masak PerlJam: only time will tell. but S32/IO.pod seems to suggest that.
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15:01 mberends ahem: .ins and .outs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-03-14#i_984777
15:01 masak mberends++
15:02 masak but know that that was after throwing about alternatives for quite a while.
15:02 mberends yep
15:02 literal cool
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15:22 dalek rakudo: 8f4dc52 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
15:22 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 349 files, 8436 passing, 0 failing
15:22 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8f4dc52a68fdc38dbd2ca675de00943f8a789998
15:23 * masak accidentally relies on the (nonexistent) laziness of =$*IN
15:28 PacoLinux make spectest  back to  27m38.179s (maybe my machine was cpu busy yesterday :) )
15:30 masak probably.
15:30 [particle] pacolinux: what was it before?
15:30 masak it took 28 minutes here.
15:31 PacoLinux saturday 29 mins, sunday 77 mins
15:31 masak today's short'n'sweet script: one that extracts all TODO comments out of a Perl script. here done for proto's installer: http://gist.github.com/90800
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15:33 PerlJam your length tolerance on one-liners is clearly more than mine.
15:33 masak :P
15:34 masak it can probably be golfed a bit; a one-liner to me is simply a script that can be written on the command line.
15:35 PerlJam Me too, but there's a threshhold at which it becomes an actual file on disk and yours would have reached that threshhold for me.
15:35 literal my $line = $*IN.readline  <-- can't this be written as my $line = =$*IN;  ?
15:35 PerlJam (of course, it would have probably then started gaining features and such)
15:35 masak literal: yes.
15:36 masak PerlJam: the command line has an impressively short feedback loop. at least for me.
15:36 masak it has many disadvantages, too. but I like the short feedback loop.
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15:47 dukeleto|work mornin'
15:47 moritz_ hi there
15:48 masak oh hai
15:53 mofino Can you guys feel that?  IT'S PERL SIX!
15:54 masak mofino: indeed.
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15:54 masak mofino: so, have you written your first module in Rakudo yet? :)
15:55 mofino no sir, I was just thinking about that
15:55 mofino it'
15:55 dukeleto|work mofino: my sigil sense is tingling
15:55 mofino it's time to invest some effort in learning perl6
15:55 masak high time, I'd say.
15:55 mofino high time?!  but it's only noon!
15:55 sitaram what's the best way for a perl5 old hand who's kinda lost touch to do that? (learn perl6.  fast)
15:56 masak mofino: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38184
15:56 masak mofino: and that was in December. :)
15:56 dukeleto|work masak: is there a document describing how to create and package Rakudo modules?
15:56 masak dukeleto|work: don't know exactly what you mean, but we're working on similar things in proto.
15:57 masak dukeleto|work: it's quite similar to the Perl 5 way, I'd say.
15:57 masak sitaram: hanging around here is not a bad idea.
15:57 masak sitaram: otherwise, I can recomment moritz_'s blog, the specs, and Actually Writing Something in Rakudo.
15:57 pmichaud Parrot has its own ideas about how language modules should be packaged.  I haven't quite decided if I agree with Parrot's notions.
15:58 sitaram masak: step 1: I
15:58 sitaram masak: step 1: I'm on it (hanging around here...!)
15:58 dukeleto|work pmichaud: which parrot notions are you not agreeing with?
15:58 brunoV hi all, I want to start playing around with rakudo. I checked out three weeks ago or so, how often do you think I should update?
15:58 sitaram step 2/3 -- I'll google and come back if I can't easily/obviously find them
15:59 sitaram step 4: will do -- thanks masak
15:59 pmichaud the idea that language-specific libraries belong under /usr/lib/parrot, I think.
15:59 masak sitaram: np. good luck!
15:59 masak and do ask, about anything.
16:00 masak brunoV: depends on what you want to do.
16:00 masak brunoV: nowadays, it's enough to take the monthly releases, unless you're VERY cutting-edge.
16:00 dukeleto|work brunoV: it changes every hour, updating once a day is usually enough to get the latest features
16:01 PerlJam brunoV: I update once a day or so just to see what's new.  Many  times I'm pleasantly surprised.  Occasionally I'm bummed that there's nothing new  :)
16:01 dukeleto|work brunoV: but if you are looking for stability, stick with monthly releases
16:01 brunoV masak, dukeleto, PerlJam, thanks! so you pull from github, right?
16:01 PerlJam brunoV: aye
16:02 masak brunoV: I pull from github, but the projects I develop are tested against the monthlies.
16:02 masak (so that other people won't have to pull from github if they don't want to)
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16:03 brunoV thanks all, I'll update then
16:03 dukeleto|work brunoV: yes, I have a fork on github where I add features and then I do a "pull request" to the rakudo github user when I want them to check it out
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16:04 brunoV dukeleto, ooo but I am so far from messing with the source code! I'm barely starting to play with the language
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16:04 pmichaud note that pull requests tend to get lost or ignored right now.
16:04 pmichaud at least, I'm generally not looking at them.
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16:05 dukeleto|work pmichaud: what is the preferred method now? patches and tickets on RT?
16:06 pmichaud Yes.
16:06 pmichaud See the wiki pages that describe the preferred method.
16:06 dukeleto|work pmichaud: good to know
16:07 dukeleto|work pmichaud: I thought that the github-squashed-feature-branch was also one of the submission methods, but I guess that was mortiz's suggestion
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16:10 literal sitaram: this is definitely useful -> http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/
16:10 moritz_ dukeleto|work: after the move to git we were trying different methods; this was one of the attempts
16:10 * PerlJam slowly kills himself with bratwurst
16:10 sitaram literal: I just saw that, and the other 2 categories in it, (perl-6 and perl-tips) -- thanks!
16:11 masak sitaram: found the spec yet?
16:11 * masak is on his way to go swimming
16:11 sitaram not yet; still on one of the other pages + multitasking :(
16:11 literal http://perlcabal.org/syn
16:12 masak literal++
16:12 sitaram thanks...  (found moritz's blog easy enough of course...)
16:12 masak sitaram: read moritz_'s stuff first. the specs are for in-depth study.
16:13 sitaram (and it's the first hit on google for "perl 6 spec")
16:13 sitaram masak: looks like it; thanks
16:14 sitaram actually I did go through the apocalypses a long time ago, but forgot most due to non use, and even my perl 5 is rusty...
16:14 sitaram (looking forward to getting my hands dirty again)
16:14 masak sitaram: the apocalypses are superseded many times over. :)
16:14 literal the apocalypses are interesting reading
16:14 masak literal: they are indeed.
16:14 masak but they also show their age.
16:14 literal more down-to-earth than the specs, though outdated :P
16:15 masak I think a thesis could be written merely on the diffs between the apocalypses and the spec.
16:15 masak and the rationales behind them.
16:16 * sitaram hardly remembers any of the apocalypses so their being superseded doesn't matter :)
16:17 sitaram (except the regex one; since I used Parse::RecDescent a fair bit once)
16:18 masak sitaram: that'd be S05 nowadays. it's changed quite a bit.
16:19 sitaram regexes are what originally hooked me into perl back in the day, so I'll be able to grok them well enough; it's the rest of it that'll be a bit of a challenge :)
16:23 moritz_ IMHO regexes/grammars are one of the killer features of Perl 6, and the one that's best implemented in Rakudo right now
16:24 PerlJam Is it specced somewhere that you can do array-unpacking in pointy blocks?  my @aoa = [ [1,2],[3,4] ];  for @aoa ->  [$a,$b] { ... }
16:25 pmichaud std:  my @aoa;  for @aoa -> [$a, $b] { ... }
16:25 p6eval std 26099: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
16:25 PerlJam Well, that STD likes it is good enough I guess :)
16:26 moritz_ PerlJam: yes, it is. Either in S04 or S06
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16:41 pugs_svn r26100 | lwall++ | Be explicit about design uncertainty wrt semantics of junctional collapse.
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18:37 PhatEddy perl: print "hello\n"
18:39 PhatEddy in perl one can print/stringify a qr// regex, is there anything similar for p6?
18:41 TimToady nothing is specced
18:41 [particle] ohm
18:43 PhatEddy For split() I would like to do some introspection to see if a regex does capturing.  Trying to worry about cases like /(A)|B/.
18:44 PhatEddy Anyone have a thought on how?
18:48 pmichaud my guess would be to see if either list or hash context produces a non-empty list/hash
18:48 pmichaud (of the resulting match)
18:48 pmichaud for the regex itself... not sure how that would work.
18:49 pmichaud I don't think we have that level of introspection yet.
18:51 PhatEddy The problem being that if the 'b' matches then nothing is returned but "perldoc -f split" indicates we should add an undef to the return list.
18:52 PhatEddy Seems like maybe a todo ...
18:53 pmichaud rakudo:  say split(/b/, 'b').perl;
18:53 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«["", ""]␤»
18:53 pmichaud doesn't look like "nothing is returned"
18:54 pmichaud or if you mean from a match
18:54 TimToady rakudo: say split(/(b)/, 'b')
18:54 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«␤»
18:54 TimToady rakudo: say split(/(b)/, 'b').perl
18:54 pmichaud rakudo doesn't know what to do with captures yet, no.
18:54 p6eval rakudo 0310a3: OUTPUT«["", ""]␤»
18:54 pmichaud (in split)
18:54 TimToady should possibly be an :option
18:55 pmichaud I'm not exactly sure what should happen there.
18:55 pmichaud should the split parts be interleaved with the captured match objects?
18:55 PhatEddy I have a patch for the captures (it's an rt) but '1A2B3'.split(/(A)|B/ doesn't work right yet ...
18:55 pmichaud PhatEddy: I'm thinking the spec needs some work.
18:55 pmichaud Perhaps I'm wrong... but I'd want to see a few test cases.
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18:56 pmichaud for example, with  '1A2B3'.split(/(A)|B/)  ..... what should be returned?
18:57 TimToady spec says alternating strings and Match objects, basically
18:57 pmichaud because of the capture, or because of a flag, or ...?
18:58 TimToady that's why I suggested a flag :)
18:58 pmichaud Right.
18:58 pmichaud we also have things like
18:58 pmichaud '1A2B3'.split( / $<a>=(A) | B /)
18:58 pmichaud and
18:58 TimToady and then it doesn't auto-trigger just because you split on /(x)$1/ or some such
18:59 PhatEddy in perl5 the example returns ['1', 'A', '2', undef, '3']
18:59 TimToady right
18:59 pmichaud '1AX2B3'.split( / (A(X)?) | B /)
19:00 TimToady that's why it returns a Match in P6
19:00 TimToady if you want to get fancier, then a comb is probably better
19:01 TimToady but if Match behaves like Capture, then maybe it's responsive to list/slice context in terms of flattening
19:01 TimToady but I still think that argues for an explicit flag if you want the delimiter match
19:02 pmichaud anyway, Rakudo wants a clearer spec.
19:02 pmichaud (for split)
19:02 TimToady then we don't have to introspect the Regex, which seems evil(ish)
19:02 TimToady not quite as dwimmy as p5, admittedly
19:03 pmichaud well, if it was a flag, then ['1', Match of A, '2', Match of B, '3']  would still do what was generally wanted in string contexts.
19:04 pmichaud i.e.,   for '1A2B3'.split(/(A)|B/, :flag) { .say }    # '1', 'A', '2', 'B', '3'
19:04 TimToady could possibly distinguish flags for the internal context too
19:04 TimToady :str :list :slice or some such
19:04 pmichaud I agree that match can be responsive to list/slice context
19:04 TimToady but interspersed Matches might be good enough
19:05 pmichaud I'm happy to provisionally adopt interspersed Matches for experimentation purposes
19:05 pmichaud we just need a flag :-)
19:05 pmichaud fwiw, in PHP it's   PREG_SPLIT_CAPTURE_DELIM
19:06 PhatEddy pmichaud: should the 'B' really be captued in that last example?
19:06 TimToady :all maybe
19:06 pmichaud and would we want a similar option for comb ?
19:06 TimToady no
19:06 pmichaud okay, good.  :-)
19:06 TimToady you can always write (.*?) to get that in comb
19:07 TimToady or some such
19:07 TimToady comb is really just syntactic sugar for m:g//
19:07 TimToady biab &
19:13 PhatEddy Well the rt is 64062 and I was hoping to update it with the newest patches today or tomorrow.
19:13 PhatEddy For the moment I may note that the spec is in progress and add a delim flag I guess?
19:14 pmichaud yes.
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19:27 TimToady the reason I suggested :all is that :delim (or :delims) seems to suggest returning *only* the delims
19:28 TimToady and the possible abbreviations fo :delims are ambiguous in various ways
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19:32 PhatEddy for the moment then I expect the delim flag will be ':all'
19:33 pmichaud agreed, :all
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19:37 PhatEddy I didn't quite understand the other proposed flags but think I can muddle along until they show up in a spec someplace ...
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19:52 pugs_svn r26101 | lwall++ | [S32/Str] add :all flag to split
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20:11 PhatEddy Sorry but looking now at the spec and rt 64062 the premise of the ticket, in terms of return values seems not quite right (http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=64062)
20:12 PhatEddy Where the initial ticket indicates dashes there should be match objects - no?
20:13 [particle] looks like i'm going to have time to work on S19 again very soon
20:14 [particle] which means i'll be writing tests. yay!
20:19 moritz_ so did the order of arguments to the sub form of split() just change?
20:19 pmichaud PhatEddy: go by the spec.  The ticket has people thinking in terms of p5-split (which is different from p6-split)
20:21 pmichaud moritz_: yes, it looks to me as though someone added 'is export' at some point in the spec's history
20:21 pmichaud moritz_: I think that's probably an error... checking history.
20:23 pmichaud no, that's not it.  Apparently it's been 'is export' for quite some time.
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20:31 pmichaud apparently goes back to 2006:  http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2006-09-24#i_-134460
20:32 pmichaud I'm not sure where we picked up the p5-meme that   split(/rx/, $val)  should work.
20:33 pmichaud maybe the spectests were incorrect and we followed those.
20:34 PhatEddy isn't split(/rx/, $val) the second split prototype in the spec?
20:35 * PhatEddy dawns that the spec might be revised
20:36 pmichaud Note that the first (invocant) argument of both split functions in the current S32 are Str
20:36 pmichaud split(/rx/, $val) would be looking for a function with a Regex as the first arg.
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21:00 moritz_ dukeleto: ping
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21:56 Lyle hi
21:57 PerlJam hello
21:57 Lyle Been playing about with Rakudo for the first time
21:57 PerlJam cool
21:58 Lyle Got it working through CGI with apache, but no luck with IIS
21:58 Lyle Settings are all right by IIS isn't picking up the output for some reason
21:58 meppl joined #perl6
21:58 Lyle I've put a request in IIS.net and emailed Jan (ActiveState) about it, but he's away for a week
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22:03 Lyle Trying to get November to work on Vista as well
22:03 PerlJam awesome.
22:04 Lyle Not much luck yet, but I have managed to come up with 4 patches to help it build already :)
22:04 moritz_ Lyle: ah, that was you... does Rakudo build on vista without modifications now?
22:05 Lyle I haven't downloaded the current tree yet
22:05 Lyle I'll give it a go in a min :) I'm still downloading the zip, I'll have to teach myself git at some point
22:05 moritz_ no hurry; just let me know the result
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22:58 diakopter std: 3**7;0b1
22:58 p6eval std 26101: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
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23:12 ruoso Hello!
23:12 diakopter ruoso: hi
23:13 ruoso so... what's new...
23:18 mikehh joined #perl6
23:20 * diakopter in 'gone dark' mode
23:24 * ruoso trying to get 3g modem to work on linux...
23:25 ruoso is the last change in junctions made to simplify "1 < 1|5 < 5"?
23:29 Whiteknight joined #perl6
23:30 amoc joined #perl6
23:51 Lyle moritz: yes the latest does build on vista without modification. Thanks :)

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