Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-04-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:02 Casan btw.. the property feature of C# is maybe already supported in another way through roles, say you could apply a does something to a $.attribute is rw, and in there write something similar to a property method that supports the encapsulation. just an idea.
00:03 skids could be.
00:05 Casan roles is an intriguing concept... pictured it once as a very dynamic include system.
00:09 skids pugs: my $b; my $a = Proxy.new(:for($b), :FETCH{"OH".say}, :STORE{"HAI".say}); $a = 1;
00:09 p6eval pugs:  ( no output )
00:10 skids pugs: my $b; my $a is Proxy(:for($b), :FETCH{"OH".say}, :STORE{"HAI".say}); $a = 1;
00:10 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ");"␤    expecting term postfix or operator␤    at /tmp/ebeb47mBZv line 1, column 68␤»
00:11 skids pugs: my $b; my $a is Proxy(:for($b), :FETCH{"OH".say}, :STORE{"HAI".say},); $a = 1;
00:11 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ");"␤    expecting "," or operator␤    at /tmp/tHvXOYNtwu line 1, column 69␤»
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04:41 jaldhar quick question.  How do you split up a string into unicode codepoints?  $string.comb gives back characters not codepoints
04:48 literal .ord for "foo".split ?
04:49 literal perl6: print .ord for "foo".split
04:49 p6eval elf 26187: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ./elf_h line 5105.␤syntax error at (eval 125) line 4, near "(->ord"␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
04:49 p6eval ..rakudo 679e48: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 4 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;Any;split' pc 34525 (src/gen_setting.pir:3295)␤»
04:49 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«102»
04:50 literal oh well
04:55 jaldhar ok.  I Will try again the next time I recompile rakudo.
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05:12 * jnthn likes airports with free wifi
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05:26 mberends jnthn: and that airport would be ... ?
05:26 lambdabot mberends: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:27 mberends @massage
05:27 lambdabot Casan said 6h 7m 19s ago: regarding p6 mutators, C# properties: afaics the C# properties offer the encapsulation by allowing a private attribute in the class to be given a value from the class using
05:27 lambdabot it through $classinstance.attritbute=value; and it will go through a mutator process before the value is stored. the example provided at http://xrl.us/gnxp is just using the mutator concept also
05:27 lambdabot used by java where you have to specify eg a set_Attribute() and there
05:29 mberends @tell Casan oh yes, I see, and also saw the lvalue sub discussion :)
05:29 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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05:39 jnthn mberends: Vienna.
05:39 mberends :)
05:39 jnthn mberends: Though my other local airport - Bratislava - has it too. :-)
05:40 mberends enjoy :) and happy landings
05:48 * jnthn -> coffeeeeee
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07:51 masak greetings, flip-camels
07:59 mberends masak: good @greeting[day-part::before-noon]
08:01 masak mberends: oh hai.
08:01 masak today is the day I start writing my slides in earnest.
08:01 masak that means less of the usual hacking. oh well.
08:02 mberends the tuits do get rounder as deadlines approach :)
08:02 masak 哈哈
08:02 mberends yeah, whatever
08:03 * masak dives into slidemaking
08:06 masak mberends: have you tried pun?
08:07 mberends I read the book, so I wasn't in a great hurry to see the movie. sry ;)
08:07 mberends I grokked it tho'
08:08 masak ah, but the three-part play is awesome.
08:08 masak mberends: it contains a bug.
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08:08 mberends easter buggy?
08:08 masak or rather, Rakudo does.
08:08 masak or maybe Parrot.
08:08 masak yah, probably Parrot.
08:08 masak it reads a line too much. :/
08:08 * mberends will see the matinee performance
08:09 masak hm, maybe I should just find the appropriate RT ticket and prioritize it...
08:09 mberends yah I noes parrot reds 2 much.
08:09 * masak does so
08:09 masak it sucks.
08:09 masak how are we supposed to do precision engineering under such circumstances? :P
08:10 mberends Parrot appends a \n after a slurp, I was going to RT it and forgot, because I had hoped to include a proof and test.
08:11 mberends just chomp it
08:11 masak that would be a fine solution (except it sucks to have to adapt code to bugs), but here I'm reading line-by-line.
08:11 mberends there are 4 places where Parrot slurps, making the bug a bit harder to find.
08:12 masak that's part of the nice thing about -n and -p
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08:13 mberends basically if the last line in a file does _not_ end in \n, Parrot adds one for you, trying to be consistent presumably.
08:14 masak mm.
08:14 mberends and you get an extra line for free :/
08:14 masak parrot--
08:15 mberends mberends-- # not flagging this earlier
08:16 masak well, it's in RT since many months back: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=60142
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08:19 masak rakudo: class A; use Test
08:19 p6eval rakudo 679e48:  ( no output )
08:19 masak that one Null-PMCs on my box.
08:20 masak rakudo: class A::C {}; A::B.foo
08:20 p6eval rakudo 679e48: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 60 (EVAL_20:41)␤»
08:20 * masak submits rakudobug
08:21 mberends masak, these are not slides ;)
08:21 masak erm.
08:21 masak research. :)
08:22 masak (actually they're offline finds since yesterday.)
08:23 mberends that's allowed :)
08:24 masak phew. :)
08:24 * masak wipes brow
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11:06 masak proto keeps leaving those make.log files in all my repos...
11:06 masak I wish it'd stop doing that.
11:13 * mberends CAN HAZ FLIP LOBSTR o/
11:14 masak \o/
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11:15 masak mberends: oh, and I just successfully worked around the one-line-too-many parrotbug in pun.
11:15 masak (yeah, yeah. slides. :) )
11:16 mberends :)
11:16 mberends and well done :)
11:17 masak 谢谢
11:17 * masak uses cat(1) for its original purpose
11:19 mberends and after the slides, suggestion: for the hordes who will want their own Lobster, include a PERL6LIB= somewhere in the README.
11:19 masak the README of Web.pm? aye, it's way behind the times.
11:19 mberends aye
11:19 masak "after the slides" would be sometime tomorrow, by the current time plan.
11:20 mberends :)
11:25 masak perl6n and perl6p now accept input files after the script, too.
11:25 masak hacking in bash hurts. :/
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11:28 masak but the scripts are already quite useful to me. I doogfood them a lot.
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11:44 ingy au
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11:49 wayland76 The time is 9:46 in au
11:55 masak Au is also the chemical symbol for gold.
11:56 wayland76 Yes.  "We've golden soil, and wealth for toil..." (a quote from our national anthem) :)
11:58 masak maybe not a coincidence.
11:59 wayland76 Maybe not, but I suspect it is :)
11:59 wayland76 Or rather, was providential, rather than with any human intent :)
12:00 masak good enough for me. :)
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15:12 LylePerl I've finished the first part of my "helping with Perl 6 Development" guide
15:12 LylePerl http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index​.cgi?roadmap_to_helping_with_development
15:12 * masak reads
15:13 LylePerl I've managed to document everything I've learned so far
15:13 masak amazing.
15:13 LylePerl Now I'm (finally) up to the bit of writing spec for a new feature (chdir)
15:14 masak LylePerl++
15:14 LylePerl And I'm a bit stuck :/
15:14 masak just ask.
15:14 masak LylePerl: a nit: Pugs is usually written like a normal word, even though it's technically an acronym.
15:15 LylePerl masak: ok, I'll fix that next time I update :)
15:15 masak on the other hand, SVN is usually written with all-caps, unless you mean the CLI command.
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15:16 LylePerl Damnd conventions :)
15:16 masak indeed.
15:16 LylePerl I've read through s32 IO
15:17 LylePerl There is section IO::DirectoryNode that has rmdir
15:17 LylePerl So I'm guessing chdir would go there?
15:18 LylePerl I'm really not sure what I'm doing :s
15:18 masak I think you're right.
15:19 LylePerl So do I make changes to the file then upload by svn?
15:19 masak aye.
15:19 LylePerl Do I need to get commit access?
15:19 LylePerl Also TimToady was saying about a $CD object...
15:19 masak you need a Pugs commitbit.
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15:20 [particle]- i can give you one
15:20 LylePerl particle: Thanks
15:20 [particle]- all i need is your email address and preferred svn username
15:21 LylePerl particle: I am new to svn though, it's version controlled so I wont be able to accidentally break anything will I??
15:21 masak LylePerl: my suggestion is to write the smallest thing that works. if we need a $CD object, one will surely be added later. what's important now is that the chdir function is added.
15:21 [particle]- no, don't worry
15:21 masak LylePerl: trust the anarchy.
15:21 [particle]- we have a "forgiveness is better than permission" model
15:21 LylePerl :)
15:21 masak if a bad commit comes in, someone will revert it.
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15:21 masak that's the way it works. :)
15:22 LylePerl ok, my email webmaster@cosmicperl.com and user cosmicnet
15:22 [particle]- invite sent to that email address.
15:22 LylePerl thanks
15:23 masak [particle]-: oh hai, by the way. is there a time plan for some of the lower-hanging flags to perl6?
15:23 [particle]- it may take a few minutes to arrive, depending on server load
15:23 masak [particle]-: you might have seen what I did to fake -n and -p for the time being.
15:23 [particle]- masak:  i've just finished up a consulting gig that should restore a healthy quantity of free time in my life again.
15:23 masak sounds promising.
15:24 [particle]- ...which i will devote to S19.
15:24 masak \o/
15:24 [particle]- i haven't seen the -n/-p work
15:24 [particle]- but, i'll review it soon
15:24 masak http://github.com/masak/pun/
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15:29 [particle]- thanks!
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15:48 rindolf Hi all.
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15:49 diakopter hi
15:51 diakopter etoofewops
15:52 masak most of the ops are in transit.
15:53 masak :)
15:53 diakopter ok better
15:53 masak thanks. I'm one of those who log out, so it won't stick, unfortunately.
15:53 masak but I appreciate the thought.
15:54 diakopter k
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15:58 pmichaud I'm about to log out/in again, as I need to reset my session.
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16:04 pugs_svn r26188 | cosmicnet++ | added spec for chdir
16:05 [particle]- cosmicnet++
16:07 masak LylePerl++
16:09 pmichaud bbiab -- resetting irssi session
16:09 masak LylePerl: might I suggest that it returns some informative value of True, such as a Str with the name of the directory?
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16:10 masak hm, I see now that rmdir is specced to return true on success...
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16:18 pugs_svn r26189 | cosmicnet++ | added spec for chdir
16:19 masak LylePerl: or you could write "touched 'last-modified' and added self as author" as the commit summary. :)
16:20 LylePerl cool changes appear here
16:21 LylePerl masak: your write I probably should have wrote that, can I edit it?
16:21 masak no need. :)
16:21 masak just keep it in mind till next time.
16:21 masak LylePerl: I reviewed both commits, and the look fine.
16:21 LylePerl I wasn't sure if i should update the document version number or not?
16:22 masak I think so, whenever you introduce something new.
16:22 masak but I also think that it doesn't matter very much. I've never understood why we keep with those version numbers.
16:23 LylePerl masak: should I change it now? (and earlier I meant your right...)
16:23 masak perhaps the one instance when it might be important is when some detail actually changes.
16:23 masak LylePerl: you could, if you like.
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16:26 masak going for a run. will be back tonight.
16:27 [particle]- that's a long run! it's 0927 here
16:34 LylePerl Right, now to figure out how to write spec tests
16:38 LylePerl This might sound a bit dumb
16:38 LylePerl But I'm assuming there are Perl 5 spec tests for chdir?
16:38 LylePerl Where are they?
16:39 [particle]- do you have ack installed?
16:39 [particle]- cpan App::Ack
16:40 [particle]- also, make sure you have the pugs t/ directory checked out
16:40 [particle]- then ack chdir t/
16:41 [particle]- ack is a grep replacement, written in perl, especially useful when working in working copies
16:42 LylePerl hmmm can't find an ActivePerl Ack package, I'll try to build
16:43 [particle]- ppm install App::Ack
16:43 [particle]- it's there
16:43 [particle]- but, it's an easy build from cpan
16:43 LylePerl That's odd it's not coming up for me. I'm on 5.10
16:44 LylePerl I'm showing plain 'ack'
16:47 [particle]- http://nopaste.snit.ch/16260
16:49 dalek rakudo: 2c13d6c | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
16:49 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 359 files, 10298 passing, 5 failing
16:49 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
16:49 dalek rakudo:     S32-hash/reverse.t aborted 5 test(s)
16:49 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​c13d6c19d55e9284ea7f6b74c62551934d319eb
16:50 LylePerl particle: I see. I was using the ppm GUI that wan't showing it. App::Ack is part of the ppm ack
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16:53 [particle]- aha. i've never used the gui
16:53 LylePerl Thanks that's brought up 3 files that try to use chdir
16:53 LylePerl Not as test though... I'll investigate and add that to my guide :)
16:54 [particle]- if they're under t/spec, then they're in spec tests
16:54 [particle]- if they're outside t/spec, they're old pugs tests that should be converted
16:54 LylePerl there in t/builtins
16:55 LylePerl I see perl 5
16:55 LylePerl so there are no chdir tests
16:56 LylePerl as chdir is part of s32/io
16:57 LylePerl do I create the folder t/spec/S32-io?
16:58 LylePerl There is already a t/spec/S16-io, but chdir isn't part of s16...
16:58 LylePerl Would that be correct?
17:00 [particle]- sure
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19:08 TimToady /id
19:09 TimToady not to mention /ego
19:10 [particle]- i was just thinking how glad i am that you're now in immediate gratification mode
19:12 TimToady use Christmas :asap;
19:12 TimToady lunch &
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19:55 LylePerl hi masak, good run?
19:55 masak LylePerl: aye, thank you.
19:55 masak ran for almost an hour.
19:56 masak my body feels very satisfied afterwards.
19:56 LylePerl good for you :)
19:57 masak I'm currently trying not to procrastinate writing my slides too much.
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19:58 LylePerl been looking at the perl5 tests for chdir
19:58 LylePerl It uses File::Spec::Functions
19:59 masak ok.
19:59 LylePerl I don't fully understand the state on Perl 6 modules
20:00 LylePerl So there is no central PAN?
20:00 LylePerl Some Pugs, others in Rakudo, other on Git???
20:02 masak LylePerl: that's right. things are very much spread out and in flux.
20:03 LylePerl That's a pain :/ Maybe a page on the wiki where things can be listed? At least until a new kind of cpan is formed...
20:03 masak LylePerl: to be honest, I don't count the things in Pugs, since they are probably mostly outdated and haven't been tested in Rakudo.
20:04 masak LylePerl: perl6-examples on github was started partly to port things over from the Pugs repo.
20:05 masak LylePerl: Rakudo holds exactly one module: Test.pm. people keep saying that it shouldn't be a module, that it should be integrated into the setting, etc. that keeps not happening. :)
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20:05 LylePerl masak: I came across perl6-examples at one point, I'll have to look again in more detail
20:06 masak it also has new modules not from Pugs, thanks to mberends++
20:06 pmichaud I'm also hoping to get some clarity in modules at NPW
20:07 LylePerl wish I was going to NPW :(
20:07 masak pmichaud: I will re-read the specs looking for things on modules in time for NPW.
20:08 pmichaud masak: that would be great.  Many of the specs are purposefully vague, leaving it to the implementors and module writers to work something out.
20:08 pmichaud TimToady++ will (rightly) point out that we also need to deal with versioned modules; my approach has been to kick that can down the road a bit further.
20:09 masak pmichaud: me too. none of my projects are versioned. :)
20:09 pmichaud I'm wondering if rakudo should include any modules in its releases (more)
20:09 pmichaud and if so, should any of those modules appear in git checkouts
20:10 pmichaud perhaps we need a "make lib" or "make stdmodules" target to check them out of whatever repo is appropriate.
20:11 masak pmichaud: I've always had the impression that implementations only need ship with the modules necessary for bootstrapping connection with a CPAN equivalent.
20:11 pmichaud sure, but there's also a question of expectations -- what will someone expect upon downloading Rakudo ?
20:11 pmichaud at least until we have specific distributions available as .rpm or .deb or whatever
20:13 LylePerl Some users (like windows ones) will expect everything to be included from the first install
20:13 masak well. what _will_ someone expect upon downloading Rakudo?
20:13 pmichaud that's part of what I hope to explore at NPW :-)
20:13 masak which modules are we talking about, exactly?
20:13 pmichaud a good question would be things like File::Spec
20:13 masak are any of them written yet? :)
20:13 LylePerl I've come across plenty of win32 hosting companies that struggle to use ppm
20:14 pmichaud and there are some in pugs ext/ directory
20:14 pmichaud which might be good candidates to update to recent Perl 6 implementations
20:14 masak hm. I'm afraid I will have to pull the plug to get some slide-making done. the intertubes are too distracting.
20:14 masak will backlog.
20:15 pmichaud okay, see you at NPW, then :-)
20:15 pmichaud (tomorrow is a travel day for me)
20:15 masak pmichaud: yes. looking forward to it.
20:15 masak pmichaud: have a pleasant journey.
20:18 LylePerl Is there a Rakudo version of File::Spec?
20:19 pmichaud not yet.... but there really shouldn't be a "Rakudo version"  or a "Pugs version".  There should just be a File::Spec
20:20 [particle]- and i hope the interface is much more like class::path than file::spec
20:21 [particle]- maybe named IO::Path
20:23 LylePerl for chdir.t I'm thinking I'll just extract the bits I need from the File::Spec at Pugs, rather than depend on the module... Would you agree?
20:23 pmichaud seems reasonable.
20:23 pmichaud If it turns out to be unreasonable, we'll fix it then.  :-)
20:24 LylePerl ok :)
20:32 LylePerl Would anyone mind if I created a page to list the current Perl 6 modules and how to get them? I don't want to step on any toes...
20:33 pmichaud Sounds like a terrific idea.
20:34 pmichaud I have a couple of place to link to it, as well.
20:34 pmichaud There's also perl6-projects.org
20:34 [particle]- perl6-examples
20:34 pmichaud well, I think of perl6-examples as being more example programs than actual modules
20:35 [particle]- er, if perl6-examples is the standard repo for modules, the docs may fit best there
20:35 [particle]- but, perl6-projects.org seems a good fit as well
20:35 pmichaud I'm not sure it'll be the standard repo for modules.  I'm thinking of creating an initial standard repo under github/perl6
20:36 LylePerl pmichaud: I think that'd be a great idea. Having things all over the place is a real pain for any new developers
20:36 pmichaud yes, but like you, I also don't want to step on any toes.  :-)
20:37 pmichaud on the other hand, perhaps "forgiveness" is the better philosophy here.  And JFDI.
20:39 LylePerl I'd say JDI (I don't like to swear) :p
20:39 pmichaud I think JDI might infringe on a trademark :-)
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20:45 [particle]- LylePerl: the f is silent
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21:18 pmichaud http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6​/index.cgi?perl_6_hackathon_targets
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21:45 skids pmichaud: if you run out of "language targets" early, I have put some more stuff on http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?perl6_tasks probably since last you looked.
21:46 pmichaud maybe we link to perl6_tasks from my list
21:46 skids But mostly, best of luck!
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22:00 liufeng ?eval [+] 1..100
22:02 [particle]- rakudo: say [+] 1..100
22:02 p6eval rakudo 2c13d6: OUTPUT«5050␤»
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23:07 ruoso Hello
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23:48 pmurias ruoso: hi
23:48 ruoso hi pmurias
23:49 * ruoso working a lot lately
23:49 ruoso almost no time to be around here
23:51 pmurias the refactored smop is starting to run some code, "1;" with --empty-setting
23:51 ruoso cool
23:52 pmurias shower&
23:56 brunov joined #perl6
23:59 bacek_ joined #perl6

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