Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-04-21

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 skids std: my @a; @a = do for 1..3 { 1;}; @a.perl.say
00:03 p6eval std 26342: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
00:03 skids rakudo: my @a; @a = do for 1..3 { 1;}; @a.perl.say
00:03 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«[Perl6Iterator.new()]␤»
00:04 skids rakudo: my $a; $a = do for 1..3 { 1;}; $a.perl.say; $a.get.say;
00:04 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«Perl6Iterator.new()␤Could not locate a method 'get' to invoke on class 'Perl6Iterator'.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 17453 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
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00:06 skids rakudo: my @a; @a = do for 1..3 { 1;}; @a.perl.say; @a[0].say
00:06 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«[Perl6Iterator.new()]␤-1␤»
00:06 skids (which comes from a stopped iterator, I know because in my own tree I have $a.get implemented)
00:07 skids So if the Iterator stopped, where'd the data it produced go to?
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00:24 * skids ponders .iterator versus .Iterator
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00:36 hudnix perl6: if(1) {say "hello";}
00:37 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "{say \"hell"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
00:37 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«hello␤»
00:37 p6eval ..elf 26342: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/BpPKUqa7Bi␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: if(1) {say "hello";}␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤  STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤
00:37 p6eval ..STD_red/std.rb:...
00:38 hudnix rakudo: if(1) {say "hello";}
00:39 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "{say \"hell"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
00:39 hudnix rakudo doesn't even have "if" yet? or has the syntax changed?
00:40 mikehh hudnix: yes
00:40 hudnix yes to which? :)
00:40 skids ditch the parens
00:41 hudnix rakudo: if 1 {say "hello"}
00:41 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«hello␤»
00:41 hudnix ah ok
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00:43 skids (actually you can use the parens, but you'd be asking for the truth value of a "list 1" not of "1" -- it's the lack of space after "if" that really killed your first try.
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01:30 s1n hudnix: if(1) is a method call, you'll either need a space before the () or remove them altogether
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02:01 cspencer good evening all
02:05 skids oh hai
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02:46 coppro I'm sure you've heard this a lot, and I apologise for being a broken record, but is there a link to a development roadmap or the like somewhere?
02:48 cspencer_ there should be one distributed in the docs/ directory
02:48 cspencer_ though i'm not sure of how often it's updated
02:48 cspencer_ http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/cea34fd8​7f5d302bbe3a7fc78c08b9cbe9caf436/docs/ROADMAP
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02:51 wayland Not very often.  It says it was in August last year, but I think they actually updated it in November
02:52 wayland But most of the stuff in section 1 hasn't been completed (with the exception that we've got the beginning of the Setting, which they called the Prelude back then)
02:52 coppro Ah
02:53 coppro What about Parrot?
02:53 wayland Parrot's a different kettle of fish :)
02:53 wayland They're already at version 1.0
02:53 wayland And while work continues they have a recent ROADMAP somewhere
02:56 wayland Don't get the impression that there's no progress on Rakudo, though
02:56 coppro yeah, I don't
02:56 wayland They've been getting a fair bit done, but not following the ROADMAP
02:56 coppro Although I'm a bit confused how the eventual deployment of Perl 6 is going to go
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02:56 coppro Pugs => initial Perl 6 => runs on Parrot => Rakudo => self-boostraps?
02:57 wayland Pugs is mothballed
02:57 coppro oh
02:57 wayland Rakudo = Perl6 on Parrot
02:57 coppro yeah
02:57 cspencer_ coppro: there're multiple implementations of perl6 in various states of completion
02:57 wayland But Perl6 is a spec, and Rakudo is an implementation of that spec
02:57 coppro right
02:57 wayland SMOP is another one
02:58 coppro What's Rakudo written in?
02:58 skids PIR
02:58 cspencer_ PIR and some Perl 6
02:58 wayland SMOP is in C, and is intended to integrate well with Perl5
02:58 coppro ah, I get it now, you're writing directly in Parrot
02:58 coppro okay
02:58 wayland But also Perl6 now
02:59 wayland They've got to the point where parts of Perl6 can be implemented in Perl6
02:59 cspencer_ and writing perl6 in perl6 is so much nicer than PIR
02:59 wayland That's called the Setting
02:59 cspencer_ :)
02:59 skids Also as Parrot adds stuff the PIR becomes smaller, because there are more features to use.
02:59 wayland Parrot Roadmap: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotRoadmap
02:59 coppro neat
02:59 coppro anyways, I have to go, but thanks!
02:59 wayland ok :)
02:59 wayland bye
03:00 skids Eventually, rakudo will also integrate STD.pm, which is the self-parsing grammar, and is both a standard and code.
03:01 coppro my head is starting to spin
03:01 * skids remonds self not to scare newbies with acronyms
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03:30 wayland skids: remond yourself all you want, but don't redmond yourself :)
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03:36 perlooooooooo helllo
03:37 perlooooooooo i am trying to develop a email extractor and i get an odd error
03:37 perlooooooooo can anyone help me?
03:43 orafu joined #perl6
03:43 skids in perl6?
03:44 skids wayland: I never redmond anything :-)
03:57 wayland skids: Me either, if I can help it.
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04:03 perlooooooooo thank you guys
04:04 perlooooooooo do you want to see my code?
04:06 wayland perlooooooooo: Yes, but in a pastebin.
04:06 wayland http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
04:06 perlooooooooo ok
04:06 wayland Got to that website, and paste your code in.  A message should automatically appear in this channel saying that it's there
04:08 perlooooooooo http://pastebin.com/m6e6b4bb1
04:08 buubot perlooooooooo: The paste m6e6b4bb1 has been copied to http://erxz.com/pb/17149
04:08 perlooooooooo so
04:08 perlooooooooo i have a function that should extcrat all the first email of a url from craiglist
04:08 c9s oooooooooo
04:09 perlooooooooo when i dont use it as a function it works perfectly
04:09 perlooooooooo i dont undestand where is the problem
04:17 perlooooooooo Missing base argument at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/HTTP/Response.pm line 91
04:17 perlooooooooo i have this error
04:17 perlooooooooo Missing base argument at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.8/HTTP/Response.pm line 91
04:18 perlooooooooo what is it?
04:18 perlooooooooo pleaaaaaaaaase
04:26 skids I haven't worked with HTTP:: in quite some time.
04:26 skids there would be more people who work with it on the main perl channel.
04:26 wayland perlooooooooo: Note that this is a Perl 5 problem.  If you join #perl, I'll try to help you there.
04:27 perlooooooooo ok
04:27 wayland This is a channel for Perl 6, not perl 5 :)
04:27 perlooooooooo thanks
04:27 eternaleye_ joined #perl6
04:41 wayland Turns out perloooooo was probably a spammer.  No more help for him.
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05:29 wayland76 moritz_++ # ARGH e-mail :)
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06:34 moritz_ ;)
06:34 pugs_svn r26343 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix some svn props
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07:21 Matt-W Morning
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07:32 wayland76 Not here it's not :)
07:33 wayland76 rakudo: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ? "guilty" : "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:33 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "? \"guilty\""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
07:34 wayland76 rakudo: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" :: "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:34 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;OPTable;parse' pc 1809 (compilers/pge/PGE/OPTable.pir:504)␤»
07:34 wayland76 That looks like a bug.  Is it a known bug?
07:35 moritz_ I think so
07:35 moritz_ it should complain about :: vs. !!
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07:48 wayland76 rakudo: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" !! "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:48 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«guiltyhave you seen my toothbrush␤»
07:49 wayland76 rakudo: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" !! "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:49 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«guiltyhave you seen my toothbrush␤»
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07:49 wayland76 rakudo: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" !! "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:49 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«guiltyhave you seen my toothbrush␤»
07:49 wayland76 rakudo: say rand
07:49 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«0.291138380141096␤»
07:49 wayland76 rakudo: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" !! "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:49 p6eval rakudo cea34f: OUTPUT«not guiltyhave you seen my toothbrush␤»
07:49 wayland76 Good :)
07:49 wayland76 std: sub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" :: "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you seen my toothbrush";
07:50 p6eval std 26343: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed routine␤Found ?? but no !!; possible precedence problem␤Please use !! rather than :: at /tmp/I5HYeKHWiG line 1:␤------> [32msub judge { rand > 0.5 ?? "guilty" [31m:: "not guilty"; }; say judge, "have you[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      infix or
07:50 p6eval ..met...
07:50 wayland76 Well, not a bug worth submitting, then, I think :)
07:52 masak wayland76: there's one about ?? :: already in RT.
07:52 lambdabot masak: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
07:52 masak @massage
07:52 lambdabot moritz_ asked 15h 9m 39s ago: do you know if there were any tests for RT #61128?
07:52 lambdabot moritz_ said 14h 32m 37s ago: never mind, I just added one
07:52 masak moritz_++
07:52 * masak backlogs
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08:06 Matt-W yay more tests
08:07 masak Matt-W: morning, sir.
08:07 Matt-W Good morning!
08:07 Matt-W If you see me this evening, please nag
08:07 Matt-W I must do some more Form.pm
08:08 Matt-W got to figure out why it's crashing Rakudo and file a bug
08:08 masak Matt-W: was just going to ask about that.
08:08 masak Matt-W: oh, it's crashing Rakudo?
08:08 Matt-W Yeah
08:08 * masak suddenly gets curious
08:08 * masak does './proto update form'
08:08 Matt-W I wrote a fairly primitive full justification method, and the first time I called it it crashed Rakudo
08:08 Matt-W it's not in github yet
08:08 Matt-W I was feeling fairly ill at the time so I didn't follow it up straight away
08:08 masak Matt-W: please upload a branch or something.
08:09 Matt-W I can do it later, can't get at the code from my office
08:09 masak ah, ok.
08:09 Matt-W IT's on the laptop at home, which is asleep
08:09 masak I see.
08:09 Matt-W I used quite a few things in that method that I've not used before, so I currently have numerous candidates for the cause of the crash
08:10 Matt-W I used [+] and map :)
08:10 Matt-W and Z
08:10 Matt-W or did I use Z in the end
08:10 pmichaud grrrr...
08:10 Matt-W can't remember now
08:11 pmichaud who removed prefix:<=> from Rakudo?
08:11 Matt-W I think I did
08:11 Matt-W pmichaud: not me!
08:11 pmichaud I'd prefer not to break existing scripts and slides so abruptly.
08:11 moritz_ pmichaud: it was me
08:11 moritz_ pmichaud: I can add it back in if you want
08:12 pmichaud Until people have time to update their modules, tutorial slides, etc., I'd prefer to keep things working.
08:12 pmichaud I.e., given that more people are using rakudo now, we need to start thinking in terms of deprecation cycles.
08:13 masak phenny: ah, new bot. welcome.
08:13 masak .u smiley
08:13 phenny masak: Sorry, no results for 'smiley'.
08:13 pmichaud or, if we don't honor prefix:<=>, we need to at least provide a useful error message that tells someone why the information on the slide they just read isn't working properly, instead of making them guess.
08:14 masak .u white smiling
08:14 phenny U+263A WHITE SMILING FACE (☺)
08:15 moritz_ what's the currently recommend method of dying from PIR in rakudo?
08:18 pmichaud 'die'
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08:18 pmichaud 'die'('message')
08:19 moritz_ ok, I have a patch, let me test that...
08:23 moritz_ pmichaud: http://nopaste.snit.ch/16355 feel free to push that, I can't push from $here :/
08:24 pmichaud okay
08:25 masak literal: congrats on being accepted for gsoc. :)
08:25 frettled pmichaud: BTW, how far did you guys get on the roadmap?
08:25 masak literal: how long do I have to implement P2T1A before you dig into your stuff?
08:25 pmichaud frettled: you mean on creating the updated one?
08:26 frettled pmichaud: yup
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08:28 pmichaud we got the basic pieces in place.  I expect to be updating the ROADMAP on the airplane.
08:28 dalek rakudo: 0e73267 | pmichaud++ | docs/ChangeLog:
08:28 dalek rakudo: Update ChangeLog.
08:28 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​e73267078a0f9a2bde0ecf15cde2a857c09c55a
08:28 dalek rakudo: 69b3180 | pmichaud++ | src/ (2 files):
08:28 dalek rakudo: Restore prefix:<=> to provide a useful error message (moritz++)
08:28 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​9b31808f41b41ed34dc273500faccc7cd5fb8cb
08:28 pmichaud (i.e., turning it into something more readable/useful)
08:29 moritz_ pmichaud: if you apply such patches with 'git-am' you automatically preserve meta data
08:29 pmichaud moritz_: oh yeah.
08:29 frettled Ah, that's excellent. I was worrying that you might have been out of time yesterday. :)
08:30 moritz_ (I have no problem with this kind of attribution, just think it's nicer to our contributors)
08:30 moritz_ and git-am -s adds a signed-off-by lines
08:30 pmichaud yes, but git's "patch" isn't quite as robust as the standard "patch"
08:30 moritz_ yes, ti seems to have problems with cr/lf issues
08:31 pmichaud also it doesn't seem to work well whenever there's an offset
08:35 jnthn morning folks
08:35 pmichaud good morning, jnthn
08:35 pmichaud wireless working at the hotel again?
08:35 jnthn yeah
08:35 pmichaud or are you someplace else now?
08:35 jnthn though I gotta check out in not so long
08:35 jnthn Plan to walk around Oslo for a bit.
08:35 jnthn Then gotta head for airport at 4pm-ish.
08:36 pmichaud svn.pugscode.org is down?
08:36 aff Thank you guys for coming to Oslo and for making NPW an interesting event!
08:36 pmichaud I can't seem to update t/spec here.
08:36 pmichaud aff:  Oslo and NPW have been great.
08:37 jnthn I can reach it...
08:37 moritz_ seems to work here
08:37 jnthn Yes, NPW was excellent.
08:37 pmichaud svn: PROPFIND of '/pugs/t/spec': Could not read status line: connection was closed by server (http://svn.pugscode.org)
08:37 pmichaud maybe it's some weird airport network issue.
08:37 aff pmichaud and jnthn: I enjoyed your talks very much.
08:38 pmichaud I can reach svn.pugcode.org via http
08:38 frettled ditto, I learned lots from you guys.
08:39 aff I am porting my first application to p6 :)
08:39 pmichaud aff:  excellent!  That's exactly what helps us most.
08:39 wayland76 Matt-W needs Wake-on-LAN on his laptop :)
08:40 Matt-W it's on wifi
08:40 Matt-W I don't think you can do it on wifi
08:40 Matt-W what I should do is have the code mirrored on my LAN server
08:40 Matt-W and set that up for remote login
08:40 moritz_ wake-on-air? :-)
08:41 pmichaud my laptop has "wake on power button".
08:41 pmichaud ahhhh, svn up works now.
08:41 pmichaud Good.
08:41 wayland76 Yay ROADMAP updates :)
08:41 moritz_ usually wake != boot
08:42 wayland76 Someone was asking about the Perl6 ROADMAP earlier today, and We pointed him at the one that claims not to have been updated since August last year :)
08:42 pmichaud Would like to have up-to-date spectests before getting on plane
08:42 Matt-W mine does wake on open lid :)
08:42 pmichaud the file hasn't been updated much since August of last year.
08:42 Matt-W I'll have to build a robot which I can get to open the lid over the internet
08:42 wayland76 Just don't control the robot from your laptop :)
08:43 frettled heh
08:43 moritz_ that somehow reminds me of a nice little story... http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Open-Sesame.aspx
08:43 kane__ joined #perl6
08:44 moritz_ probably the ssh solutions was much safer than any card reader (unless they used a broken random number generator :)
08:45 frettled heh
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08:55 masak rakudo: multi method dispatch(@chunks, %param?) { say defined %param }; dispatch([1,2,3]); dispatch([1,2,3], { "OH" => "HAI" })
08:55 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'dispatch'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 106 (EVAL_17:52)␤»
08:55 masak bug in Rakudo or in masak?
08:55 moritz_ s/method/sub/?
08:55 masak moritz_: ah, thank you.
08:55 frettled and where do we post masak bugs, anyway?
08:56 moritz_ frettled: rakudobug@perl.org
08:56 moritz_ oh wait
08:56 masak frettled: masakbug@masak.org :P
08:56 frettled :)
08:56 frettled masak: \o/
08:56 masak frettled: you can't submit them through the web interface, only mail.
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08:57 frettled masak: and I suppose patches are submitted via BK instead of svn or git ;)
08:58 moritz_ BK?
08:58 masak Burger King?
08:58 frettled BitKeeper
08:58 jnthn I CAN HAZ CHEEZBURGER!
08:59 frettled ohnoes
08:59 masak rakudo: class A { multi method dispatch(@chunks, %param?) { say %param.perl, defined %param } }; A.new.dispatch([1,2,3]); A.new.dispatch([1,2,3], { "OH" => "HAI" })
08:59 jnthn ohnoes now I can't
08:59 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«{}1␤{"OH" => "HAI"}1␤»
08:59 masak I'm slightly surprised that the former is defined.
08:59 masak but maybe it has to be that way.
08:59 moritz_ masak: that's because %param is an instance
08:59 masak an instance?
09:00 * Matt-W writes some Perl 5 and finds it very strange
09:00 moritz_ objects
09:00 jnthn An instance of Hash
09:00 moritz_ objects of normal classes are always defined
09:00 jnthn ohnoes I have to check out
09:00 masak ok, you two don't seem to think this is an error, so I guess it isn't :)
09:00 jnthn catch y'all later :-)
09:00 masak jnthn: o/
09:01 masak Matt-W: I find the more frequently you switch, the easier it becomes.
09:01 wayland76 bye :)
09:05 masak rakudo: my %h = { foo => "1" }; %h<foo bar baz> //= 2,3,4; say %h.perl
09:05 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«{"foo" => "1", "bar" => undef, "baz" => undef}␤»
09:05 frettled masak: I think I grokked the code in your previous example now, and yes, I think it makes sense that it works the way it did.
09:06 masak frettled: with the instantiated hash?
09:06 moritz_ but the last one is... weird
09:06 frettled masak: yep
09:06 masak frettled: well, I just want a simple way to test if the parameter was passed.
09:06 masak moritz_: submit a rakudo/
09:06 masak ...bug?
09:07 masak I was thinking maybe some interaction between list assignment and defined-or disallows that.
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09:09 moritz_ masak: I think it's a manifestation of a different bug
09:09 masak which one?
09:09 moritz_ it's ok that the //= does nothing
09:09 moritz_ but mentioing %foo<bar> autovivifies it
09:10 frettled argh, I forgot that Firefox is _very_ unhappy about searching through any of perlcabal.org/syn/S*.html.
09:10 moritz_ rakudo: my %h; %h<foo>; say %h.perl
09:10 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«{"foo" => undef}␤»
09:10 moritz_ masak: that's long known and ugly
09:11 masak moritz_: still, assigning with //= should overwrite the undef value.
09:11 frettled masak: Anyway, S06/Optional parameters/ - "Missing optional arguments default to their default values, or to an undefined value if they have no default."
09:11 masak moritz_: or do the autovivification and the assignment happen in the wrong order?
09:11 frettled masak: so it appears that there is a bug, then, since you haven't specified a default for %param
09:11 moritz_ masak: does //= dwim over lists values?
09:11 moritz_ masak: if so, where's that specced?
09:11 masak frettled: or maybe {} is the default for Hash...
09:12 masak moritz_: that's part of what I'm wondering.
09:12 masak moritz_: and if not, how does one write what I meant?
09:12 moritz_ masak: maybe you need a hyper
09:12 frettled masak: the way I read the spec, the default values are the ones you specify in the sub declaration.
09:13 Matt-W masak: I think you might be right - it works for musical instruments, anyway.
09:13 moritz_ for <a b c> Z 1, 2, 3 -> $k, $v { %h{$k} //= $v }
09:14 * masak 's head explodes from three conversations at once
09:14 wayland76 masak: Let's talk about having multiple conversations too :)
09:14 masak :)
09:14 frettled :)
09:14 moritz_ frettled: if %h were undef, you couldn't assign values to it
09:15 masak ack. it's more dwimmy that it's {}.
09:15 wayland76 rakudo: for <a b c> Z 1, 2, 3 -> $k, $v { %h{$k} //= $v }
09:15 frettled moritz_: hrm, that's breaking the principle of least surprise.
09:15 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«Scope not found for PAST::Var '%h' in ␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:104)␤»
09:15 masak but... I just want a nice way to see if the hash was passed or not.
09:15 moritz_ frettled: maybe tye spect needs to be updated to only refer to scalar optional parameters
09:15 moritz_ s/tye/the/
09:16 moritz_ rakudo: my %h = a => 5; for <a b c> Z 1, 2, 3 -> $k, $v { %h{$k} //= $v }; say %h.perl
09:16 frettled moritz_: or to allow assignment to undefined non-scalars ;)
09:16 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«{"a" => 5, "b" => 2, "c" => 3}␤»
09:16 moritz_ frettled: that would be much weirder, overall
09:16 frettled moritz_: would it?
09:17 moritz_ frettled: yes.
09:17 frettled moritz_: I don't see how, though.
09:17 moritz_ frettled: if you have an undef value, it's usually not a "normal" object, but a proto object
09:18 moritz_ frettled: so if a default value is such a proto object, a %h<a> = 3 would call the postcircumfix:<< < > >> method as a class method
09:18 moritz_ frettled: which doesn't have access to attributes - so it's going to barf
09:18 masak moritz_: what does 'my %h;' do?
09:19 moritz_ masak: it calls Hash.new under the hood, I assume
09:19 masak then it can be argued that '%h?' should, too.
09:19 frettled moritz_: so essentially, it's been designed into a corner where you can't get out of without getting hacks all over your feet ;)
09:19 moritz_ frettled: right
09:19 frettled moritz_: $expletive
09:19 moritz_ frettled: of course there are other options...
09:20 frettled moritz_: yes, _is rw_, for instance, seems like it would help.
09:20 * frettled is a Perl 6 spec n00b, though.
09:20 moritz_ frettled: like having %h? defaulting to a Hash.new(defined => 0) or so
09:20 frettled moritz_: no, that's the wrong solution, becaus it still means you can't say whether you got passed an empty hash or not.
09:21 frettled s/caus /cause/
09:21 moritz_ frettled: you could, because an empty hash defaults to being defined
09:21 frettled ah, I misunderstood the magic
09:21 * frettled <- stupid.
09:22 moritz_ but there's a drawback... every modifying call to a hash would have to set its defined flag
09:22 frettled mm
09:22 frettled I think this is a design weakness.
09:23 moritz_ the problem is that we're doing in-band communication
09:23 moritz_ instead of asking the hash parameter if it was defined, we should ask the capture if that hash was given
09:24 masak aye.
09:24 moritz_ especially since objects can respond with False to .defined at will anyway
09:24 frettled the way you put it, it seems like there is a straight-forward way of doing so, and that would be good.
09:24 frettled Conceptually, that's much cleaner than asking the variable.
09:25 moritz_ the simplest solution that works with the current spec is to split it into two multis
09:25 moritz_ but that's not always convenient
09:26 frettled I was considering to suggest that, but I thought it would be neater to use the optional argument as, well, optional.
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09:26 frettled In more complex cases it would make more sense to create multiple methods.
09:27 frettled (going Java)
09:29 frettled There doesn't appear to be a test for this in S06, though.  Unless I'm misreading the tests or missing a test, only scalars are tested.  But my test-fu is weak.
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09:30 moritz_ frettled: it might well be missing... but let's try to get clarification on the spec first, and then write tests :-)
09:30 frettled moritz_: yep.
09:30 frettled moritz_: though the spec is pretty clear about it, really, I just had to read the right part of it.
09:31 frettled It's right there in the intro of S06/Parameters and arguments/
09:31 frettled It speaks of "container argument" as opposed to a scalar.
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09:37 frettled so if anyone has the test-fu to write a test for testing whether optional hash and array parameters are 1) immutable, 2) defined with their correct default value, and 3) handles correctly with is rw, is copy, etc.
09:37 frettled ...that would be nice. Then I can leech on and see how that's tested.  :D
09:41 frettled Lunch in T-19 minutes
09:43 masak frettled: that's mixing of two constructs. :) it's either just "T minus 19" or "lunch in 19 minutes"...
09:44 Matt-W my lunch today will include arguments
09:44 antiphase t(lunch) = NOW() + 19;
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09:57 frettled masak: Ah, but I didn't tell you what T was.  *waves arms desperately*
09:57 masak :P
09:57 masak you'd probably need to redefine infix:<-> as well.
10:03 patmat joined #perl6
10:04 wayland76 class T { return -NOW() };
10:04 pugs_svn r26344 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] LOST compiles (the MESSAGE is still empty)
10:05 masak wayland76: a slight nit: you can't return from a class body.
10:06 wayland76 That's why I didn't send it to rakudo :)
10:06 wayland76 Ah, I know...
10:06 masak rakudo: class A { method closure() { return { say $!greeting } } }; class B { has $!greeting; method run-code(Callable $c) { $c() } }; B.new().run-code( A.new().closure() )
10:06 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«No such attribute '$!greeting'␤current instr.: 'parrot;A;_block29' pc 347 (EVAL_22:129)␤»
10:06 wayland76 class T { new { return -NOW() } };
10:06 masak that works.
10:06 masak 'method new', though.
10:07 wayland76 masak is a fully-implemented perl6 compiler :)
10:07 wayland76 rakudo: class T { method new { return -NOW() } };
10:07 p6eval rakudo 69b318:  ( no output )
10:08 masak rakudo: class A { has $!greeting = "I'm guessing this is actually the specced behaviour"; method closure() { return { say $!greeting } } }; class B { has $!greeting; method run-code(Callable $c) { $c() } }; B.new().run-code( A.new().closure() )
10:08 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«I'm guessing this is actually the specced behaviour␤»
10:08 masak Rakudo++
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10:26 aff Is hash:delete not implemented yet?
10:27 masak aff: correct. only %h.delete($key)
10:27 aff masak: Thanks
10:29 pugs_svn r26345 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] SMOP__NAGC__RI__create takes a WEAKREF argument
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11:49 moritz_ masak: yes, it's specced like that... $!greeting is not a lexical, so a block won't close over it
11:50 masak but note that the block did in effect close over it.
11:50 moritz_ how so?
11:51 moritz_ it's a method, so it has access to the attributes
11:51 moritz_ I don't see any closing.
11:56 masak the closure uses the 'self' defined in the closure() method, even though it's called in the run-code($c) method.
11:58 pugs_svn r26346 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] LOST passes tests
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12:20 masak class A { has Callable $.c; method foo() { say defined $.c } }; A.new.foo
12:20 masak I must say this is highly counterintuitive.
12:20 masak rakudo: class A { has Callable $.c; method foo() { say defined $.c } }; A.new.foo
12:20 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:21 masak if that one is defined, what in the world is it defined to be?
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12:23 masak I feel both this case and the case with the default parameters undermines the whole concept of definedness.
12:24 masak to me, 'defined' should be able to show whether the variable in question has been assigned to, initialized etc.
12:27 masak moreover...
12:28 masak rakudo: class A { has $.c; method foo() { say defined $.c } }; A.new.foo
12:28 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«0␤»
12:28 masak now it works as we all expect it to!
12:28 masak so the current behaviour is actually a kind of punishment for adding types!
12:28 frettled muahaha
12:29 * masak mutters inaudibly
12:29 frettled masak: it's a shame that you never got to hear sjn and I practice our evil laughter.
12:30 masak frettled: looking forward to hearing it next time we meet.
12:30 frettled masak: that's a deal!
12:31 baest masak: I think it's only Roles
12:31 frettled yes, we play them as best we can.
12:32 baest rakudo: class B { }; class A { has B $.c; method foo() { say defined $.c;} }; A.new.foo'
12:32 LylePerl pmichaud: The issue I was having on Vista turned out to be an issue with Rakudo's realclean and not the code itself.
12:32 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "'"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
12:32 baest rakudo: class B { }; class A { has B $.c; method foo() { say defined $.c;} }; A.new.foo';
12:32 LylePerl pmichaud: Maybe that's the same issue on Darwin?
12:32 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 1, near "';"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:85)␤»
12:32 baest rakudo: class B { }; class A { has B $.c; method foo() { say defined $.c;} }; A.new.foo;
12:32 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«0␤»
12:32 baest sorry for the noise
12:32 masak baest: I think you're right.
12:32 masak but I don't think roles should behave like this either.
12:32 baest indeed
12:33 baest would be _very_ weird
12:34 frettled And the guys who can answer conclusively are either having a good walk in the sunshine or on their way to/from an airport.
12:34 masak moritz_ seemed to argue earlier that the optional-params case was correct.
12:37 frettled Yes, at least correct according to spec, and as far as I could tell, it was.
12:38 masak right.
12:38 masak that's why I'm not submitting it as a rakudobug, because it's really a spec issue.
12:39 masak by the way, what's a way to write an empty code block in Perl 6?
12:39 frettled But Someone� should probably write new tests.  I don't know how yet. :)
12:39 masak i.e. 'my Callable $c = ...'
12:40 frettled oh, an empty anonymous/implicit sub?
12:40 masak rakudo: my Callable $c = -> {}
12:40 p6eval rakudo 69b318:  ( no output )
12:40 masak ah, that's the way.
12:40 frettled That was almost too easy.
12:41 frettled no black candles or goats necessary.  But then again, it's not SCSI.
12:42 masak frettled: the important point being that the 'obvious' solution is wrong here.
12:42 masak rakudo: my Callable $c = {}
12:42 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«Type mismatch in assignment.␤current instr.: 'die' pc 17466 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
12:42 masak because {} is an empty Hash.
12:42 masak rakudo: say Hash ~~ Callable
12:42 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«0␤»
12:44 frettled masak: Yes, and I don't think I quite got an answer to how to check whether an argument was used in any other way than doing multiple dispatch to eliminate the alternatives.
12:44 masak frettled: indeed.
12:45 masak this discussion is not-yet-resolved.
12:45 frettled Since defined() obviously isn't the correct way to do it, an alternative method is necessary, e.g. another property for each parameter that's specified in the sub/method definition.
12:46 frettled That would be quite useful, since it allows us to separate between the following cases:
12:46 frettled 1) The parameter was not used.
12:46 frettled 2) The parameter was used, but was undefined.
12:47 frettled I'm not eager to fight for this, since I'm not sure where the snowball will stop rolling.
12:47 masak whoa, "obviously isn't the correct way"? please explain -- I didn't know it was obvious that it isn't the correct way, let alone that it isn't the correct way...
12:48 masak frettled: for a typed variable, the case 2) will never occur.
12:48 masak s/variable/parameter/
12:48 frettled masak: ah, right, that was mentioned earlier as well.
12:49 frettled I used "obviously" loosely; it's not quite obvious to me that this is the way it _ought_ to be, but it's obvious that it's the way it _is_.
12:49 masak ah. :)
12:50 masak I think 'defined' should be used to test whether a variable, parameter or attribute has been initialized.
12:50 masak I think that typing shouldn't affect this maxim.
12:53 frettled Yup.
12:53 frettled As I said before, it breaks with the principle of least surprise, and it also breaks with the principle of not having special exceptions for common cases.
12:54 masak mm.
12:54 masak I think I'm ready to submit a rakudobug after all.
12:54 masak but it'll be one helluva rakudobug... :)
12:54 * masak submits
12:59 aff In a function call, must the argument list follow a function name without whitespace in between?
12:59 aff E.g. ok(sum (1,2,3) == 6);
13:00 aff use Test; plan 2; sub sum (*@numbers) { return [+] @numbers; }; ok(sum(1,2,3) == 6); ok(sum (1,2,3) == 6);
13:00 aff I get not ok 2
13:01 masak rakudo: say +(sum (1,2,3))
13:01 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub sum␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 85 (EVAL_16:49)␤»
13:01 masak rakudo: sub sum (*@numbers) { return [+] @numbers; }; say +(sum (1,2,3))
13:01 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«6␤»
13:01 masak rakudo: sub sum (*@numbers) { return [+] @numbers; }; say +(sum (1,2,3) == 6)
13:01 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:07 masak aff: the expression (1,2,3) == 6 is treated as one value and sent as a param to sum.
13:08 aff Not a bug then?
13:08 masak don't think so.
13:08 aff Ok thanks
13:08 masak use parentheses. :)
13:10 frettled hmm.
13:10 frettled rakudo: sub sum (*@numbers) { return [+] @numbers; }; say +(sum <1 2 3> == 6)
13:10 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:10 frettled just curious :)
13:13 masak I guess the answer can be formulated like this, too: infix:<==> has higher precedence than listop function calls.
13:15 frettled mm
13:16 frettled Just use the periodic table of operators (GIYF).  Caveat: there are two syntax changes since it was updated in February.
13:18 aff Ok thanks guys
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13:20 frettled masak: Emacs? Jolly good!
13:21 masak frettled: I'm sorry? :)
13:21 aff left #perl6
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13:22 frettled masak: I just asked for your IRC client's version, it responded with ERC 5.2, which runs under Emacs.  So, does that mean you have syntax hilighting for Perl 6 in Emacs?  :D
13:23 masak frettled: I don't use Emacs much to write Perl 6 code.
13:23 frettled I was wondering why people us e.g. <==> to quote == instead of using bold, underline or inverse.
13:23 masak I prefer vim for coding.
13:25 patmat is there an actual, really good ebook/tutorial for Perl6 in the net?
13:25 patmat i mean for programming newbies
13:26 * frettled guesses "no".
13:26 masak patmat: unfortunately not, only bits and pieces.
13:26 patmat :(
13:26 masak patmat: on the other hand, the current implementations are equally fractured and incomplete, so you'd need a high quotient of patience and research anyway.
13:27 patmat ok so i let it be :P
13:27 patmat at the moment
13:27 masak patmat: I have a bunch of recommended reading for you though, if you plan to stay long enough to let me remember it.
13:27 masak especially moritz_++'s perl5-to-perl6 blog posts.
13:27 frettled I suspect that programming newbies might be better off learning another language, as the situation is right now.
13:27 masak (assuming you have prior Perl 5 experience)
13:28 frettled I'd even go so far as to suggest that programming newbies don't look at Perl 5 either.
13:28 masak frettled: well, it's theoretically possible to learn programming by learning Perl 6.
13:28 masak frettled: but it'll be a tough ride. :)
13:28 frettled masak: it's also _practically_ possible to learn programming without learning a programming language.  :)
13:28 masak frettled: I'd tend to agree.
13:28 frettled (though it's not very practical, ha ha)
13:29 frettled I appreciated learning Simula and then LPC (Lars Pensj�'s C, object-oriented C for MUD programming), but YMMV.
13:32 wayland76 patmat: The advice I tend to give people is that Perl is a good last language to learn.
13:33 wayland76 After you've learned one or two others that can only do some things, then learn Perl, because it can do all of them :)
13:33 wayland76 The disadvantage to perl is that, because it can do everything, it tends to be big
13:33 patmat i wouldnt look to Perl 5 :)
13:33 patmat better Python/Perl
13:35 wayland76 patmat: You say "Programming Newbie", but you seem to have some background.  Do you mind if we ask what languages you've already tried?
13:35 masak patmat: here's why Perl 6 might be interesting to learn. let's say you have a file with a number on every line, and you want to sum those numbers. now, in most languages that would be a lot of trickery with opening files and for loops.
13:35 frettled Python is also pretty far down on the list of languages for newbies, since it tends to be confusing for the next language.
13:36 masak patmat: in Perl 6, it's 'say [+] lines("myfile.txt")'
13:36 frettled In awk, it's: awk '{ n+=$1 } END { print n }' myfile.txt
13:37 frettled >:->
13:38 masak what I like about the Perl 6 version is that it aligns very well with the problem specification. it contains the primitives "say" "addition" "lines" and the file.
13:38 masak that's much the same as was used to describe the problem.
13:38 baest frettled: shorter in p5: perl -n -e ' $n+=$_; END { print $n }' myfile.txt
13:39 frettled baest: perl -ne >:->
13:39 patmat wayland76: i learned a bit of Ruby, and Python
13:39 patmat and in eaaarly days, QBasic :P
13:39 frettled yow
13:39 frettled well, there are worse things to learn than QBasic.
13:40 masak indeed.
13:40 wayland76 I did GWBASIC, followed by QBasic, followed by QuickPascal, all before I got to Uni
13:40 wayland76 Oh, and Assembly, and had a look at ForTran :)
13:41 wayland76 Anyway, patmat, it sounds like you're not quite a newbie
13:41 masak I did GWBASIC, Turbo Basic, QBasic, Turbo Pascal, 386 Assembly, Visual Basic and a smattering of C before I got to Uni.
13:42 wayland76 I'd say stick with Ruby until Perl 6 is readier -- check back in about 6 months :)
13:42 * frettled did assembly, MS BASIC(A), Logo, then had a few years' worth of recess before going to the University and discovering that I was supposed to do informatics.
13:42 * frettled will not recommend assembly as the starting point.
13:43 wayland76 I had BASICA too, and a little Logo at school
13:43 wayland76 oh, and apple basic (as in Apple ][ )
13:43 masak patmat: I'd add to wayland76's suggestion that looking at Perl 6 at the current stage is quite awesome too, but at times frustrating.
13:43 frettled As opposed to masak, I don't recall _which_ assembly, because I think I was only 8 or 9 at the time and only wanted to use the beeper to create music with loops and conditionals.
13:44 masak ah, the beeper.
13:44 frettled or "speaker", as it would be called in the IBM PC.
13:44 wayland76 Who remembers what the GW in GWBASIC stood for?  (I do, I'm just testing... :) )
13:44 masak aye.
13:44 * moritz_ does not
13:44 wayland76 Well, it was a fine speaker, but had lame circuitry leading to it
13:45 * masak doesn't either
13:45 frettled but it wasn't a PC, it was a loose board with 1 or 2 KiB memory and a 5- or 6-digit calculator-type display.
13:45 frettled I didn't know, but it was apparently "Graphics and Windows".
13:46 * frettled cuddles his uni's local acronym/initial database.
13:46 wayland76 frettled: I was told "Gee-Whiz" :)
13:46 frettled hehe
13:46 masak seems the name question is disputed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW-BASIC#Name
13:47 wayland76 masak: I was just looking at that to check if I was right :)
13:47 masak hm. today is not a productive day, $WORK-wise.
13:48 yahooooo6 joined #perl6
13:49 moritz_ same here
13:49 wayland76 Lets make that anonyous!
13:50 wayland76 (anonymous = clown version of unanimous)
13:52 * frettled mumbles something about $expletive script kiddies and $expletive customers and @expletive.
13:53 wayland76 Is it just me, or are we mostly sysadmins here?
13:53 Matt-W I'm not a sysadmin
13:54 Matt-W I run my home network sloppily, but that's just so I can get stuff done
13:54 moritz_ wayland76: I'm one, though only part time
13:54 frettled I fled consulting to become a sysadmin.  I'm not sure that's a wise choice, but at least I'm not earning loads of money coding Java, which of course would be awful.
13:54 masak I'm decidedly not a sysadmin.
13:54 masak I'm a regular code monkey.
13:54 frettled ooh, a code monkey!
13:54 Matt-W I'm a code monkey too
13:54 wayland76 ok :)
13:54 frettled I need one or two of those!
13:54 * frettled holds on to masak tightly.
13:55 Matt-W C++ mostly, bits of Perl and some Java when I can't avoid it
13:55 * frettled holds on to Matt-W tightly.
13:55 masak frettled: let go of my tail!
13:55 Matt-W Plus a lot of Perl 6 evangelism
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13:56 wayland76 ok, only about half sysadmins then
13:56 frettled I like solving problems, but when I've done so, I don't like implementing the solution.  That's the boring part.
13:56 Matt-W I like making things
13:56 wayland76 frettled: tell me about it :)
13:56 Matt-W Preferably flying by the seat of my pants, experimental stuff
13:56 wayland76 I think we're all exhibiting the virtue of laziness :)
13:57 frettled This is outrageous, by the way: I printed the periodic table of elements and showed it to one of my co-workers, and he called me "very nerdy".
13:58 Matt-W Try the table of perl 6 operators
13:58 frettled That's theone.
13:58 frettled s/eo/e o/
13:58 Matt-W it's beautiful
13:58 Matt-W tempted to print it out at work
13:58 frettled Yes, especially after it got antlers, signatures and hand-written corrections.
13:58 moritz_ where is it btw? we should link to it from perl6-projects.org
13:58 Matt-W we can do A3 on the colour laser
13:59 frettled moritz_: http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/
14:00 moritz_ frettled: thanks
14:03 frettled np
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14:03 pugs_svn r26347 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] started adding .m0ld tests to s1p
14:03 pugs_svn r26347 | pmurias++ | even this simple one uncovers a memory leak
14:09 pugs_svn r26348 | moritz++ | [perl6-projects.org] add link to periodic table
14:12 patmat masak ok i stick to it, that it could be awesome.. but i'd need a good documentation or better say ebook/tutorial for it
14:12 literal moritz_: the "Perl 6 highlighting for vim" link can be changed to http://github.com/hinrik/vim-perl
14:12 masak patmat: did you check out moritz_'s perl5-to-perl6 blog?
14:13 patmat whats the page again? sorry im in work
14:13 patmat i hate it to be a Supporter... even for Windows stuff
14:13 masak patmat: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-5-to-6/
14:13 patmat its my first job, i want to be a coder once
14:13 patmat thanks
14:13 masak should be enough to get your feet wet.
14:14 patmat so is there an easy way to install perl6 on a windows machine? cause for work...
14:14 patmat private i like to use linux/bsd
14:14 literal moritz_: never mind, I'll update :)
14:15 pugs_svn r26349 | hinrik++ | [perl6-projects.org] update perl6.vim link
14:15 moritz_ literal++ # JFDI :-)
14:15 masak moritz_: the order of the index in your blog linked above doesn't correspond to the order of the posts. just thought you'd like to know.
14:17 moritz_ masak: that's intional. One is alphabetic, the other is by date
14:17 patmat so is there a way to install it on Windows?
14:17 masak moritz_: oh, ok.
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14:18 masak patmat: http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
14:18 pugs_svn r26350 | hinrik++ | [perl6-projects.org] link to Perl 6 Programming on Wikibooks
14:19 frettled Now all we need is that syntax hilighter for Emacs.
14:19 masak patmat: I'd recommend the tarball approach mentioned in the "If you don't have git installed..." paragraph.
14:19 masak frettled: I've found that cperl-mode does a decent job.
14:20 masak s/\./ highlighting Perl 6./
14:20 literal there is an old modified cperl-mode.el in the pugs repo
14:21 literal don't know how much it supports
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14:22 masak literal: do you know when you'll be starting your GSoC work? I'd like to have P2T1A implemented by then.
14:22 literal P2T1A ?
14:23 masak yes, a throwaway prototype.
14:23 masak actually, not even that.
14:23 masak it's enough documentation to be able to say something sensible about the documentation data format.
14:23 moritz_ May 23:
14:23 moritz_ * Students begin coding for their GSoC projects
14:23 masak oh, good.
14:23 moritz_ http://socghop.appspot.com/document/s​how/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
14:24 literal yeah, may 23rd officially
14:24 moritz_ of course nobody can prevent literal from starting earlier :)
14:24 literal http://nix.is/gsoc/gsoc-u4x.html
14:24 literal there's a schedule there
14:25 masak seems my deadline can still be May 23, given that schedule.
14:25 frettled masak: cperl-mode is okay, except that it does different parsing mistakes than perl-mode.  :)
14:25 masak the 'start prototyping grok' will ideally be helped by my musings.
14:25 frettled I suspect that Perl 6 may be easier to hilight.
14:26 masak frettled: I've always found cperl-mode much, much more stable than perl-mode. don't know why.
14:26 cosimo joined #perl6
14:26 masak I think it might have been implemented with failure robustness in mind, whatever that means for Perl code parsing.
14:26 moritz_ frettled: I don't think so - the ambiguty between terms and operators is more present in Perl 6
14:26 literal frettled: Perl 6 has more orderly syntax yeah, but it also has much more of it...
14:27 literal and yeah, the predictive parsing thing
14:27 pugs_svn r26351 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] removed surplus REFERENCE from capture
14:28 literal frettled: though emacs has much better support for external processes so one could probably use STD.pm to highlight it
14:28 frettled yup, that was suggested this weekend.
14:29 moritz_ that said, the grammar for Perl 6 is much shorter than perly.{c,y} and toke.c
14:29 cosimo left #perl6
14:29 masak moritz_: that's because it's written in a much more high-level language. :)
14:29 literal moritz_: any reason your perl-5-to-6 isn't mentioned on perl6-projects.org ?
14:31 moritz_ literal: the blog is assembled on planetsix, which is already there... but we could add it anyway
14:31 literal ok
14:32 moritz_ just don't add the normal perl 6 part of my blog, that would be a duplicate
14:32 literal yeah
14:36 pugs_svn r26352 | hinrik++ | [perl6-projects.org] add link to Perl 5 to 6 lessons
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14:48 * skids backlogging -- wifi wake on lan is called WOWLAN, and theres a smattering of support on various adaptors.
14:49 * moritz_ knows WOW without the LAN part :-)
15:01 patmat i think i choose PUGS
15:02 patmat for the work here
15:02 mofino joined #perl6
15:04 literal what work?
15:04 wayland76 patmat: That's kind of dangerous -- most of the active developers are working on Rakudo
15:04 * skids backlogging: not a sysadmin.  A net admin.  As in actual network hardware, not PCs/servers, e.g. those sysadmins that call themselves netadmins.
15:08 skids however it would not hurt to keep pugs somewhat in sync with the test suite as the standard changes.
15:08 skids If not the big stuff, at least the simple method renames and such.
15:09 moritz_ skids: feel free
15:09 skids :-)
15:09 skids Was more encouragement to patmat if he really likes haskel
15:12 moritz_ that said there is a Dec 2008 pugs release here: http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-b​in/hackage-scripts/package/Pugs
15:12 skids So last night I was trying to suss whether we need both .iterator and .Iterator, or whether .iterator is now cruft.
15:13 PerlJam skids: what's .Iterator or .iterator?
15:13 PerlJam skids: aren't they all  ['Iterator'] now?
15:13 PerlJam or am I thinking of something completely different?
15:14 moritz_ PerlJam is talking abouth Rakudo, skids about the spec
15:14 skids .Iterator would have to follow the "methods named after a class are for casting/coercing" whereas .iterator might offer more flexibility in semantics.
15:15 skids But I can't think of a situation where the difference would matter.
15:15 PerlJam ah.
15:16 skids Of course as I've often said esoteric CS minutia elude me.
15:18 skids If it is the case that the spec should now exclusively say .Iterator I wouldn't mind doing that, but don't want to if there's some reason for .iterator.
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15:19 [particle] lowercase means it's a base type
15:20 [particle] er, that's too many loaded words.
15:20 moritz_ .true usually returns a Bool
15:20 PerlJam yeah, I was about to ask what a "base type" is  :)
15:20 moritz_ not a native type
15:20 moritz_ if you meant s/base/native/
15:25 skids Yeah rakudo-wise I get that some of the .iterator calls are looking for Parrot 'iterator', but is there a reason for .iterator on the spec level?
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15:35 patmat wayland76: ok pugs doesnt work anyway.. so i need Rakudo for Windows :)
15:36 PerlJam patmat: unless you want to make pugs work.
15:36 patmat literal: i'm at a company, in the IT Support.. sucks a bit, but its my first job.. so.. its ok for the beginning
15:36 patmat PerlJam: nah, the reason that most people work on rakudo is enough :)
15:36 literal why do you need pugs there?
15:37 PerlJam literal: he needs perl6 to do Great and Wonderous Things.
15:37 wayland76 literal: He needs something to learn Perl 6 with
15:38 wayland76 That's why I told him that it's not recommended
15:38 wayland76 (pugs not recommended; perl 6 is :) )
15:38 cognominal joined #perl6
15:38 patmat right
15:38 literal yeah, Rakudo would be a better choice
15:38 patmat i dont need Perl or any other language for work :P but i need it, because i want to learn something!!
15:38 patmat and to be a programmer once :)
15:39 patmat because Support simply sucks.
15:39 moritz_ aye
15:40 literal if you haven't programmed at all, then Perl 5 would probably be a better starting point, I think
15:40 wayland76 patmat: I had a job that involved support once.  You're right that programming is better :)
15:40 patmat no, not Perl 5..
15:41 wayland76 literal: He's done some python and ruby and QBasic, and didn't like Perl 5 for some reason :)
15:41 PerlJam literal: don't discourage him!   How often do you think someone will be able to say "Perl 6 was my first programming language"?
15:41 literal hehe
15:41 baest hehe, that would be cool
15:41 literal PerlJam: too late, if what wayland76  says is true
15:41 PerlJam yeah
15:42 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:42 PerlJam After using python and ruby web frameworks and then using Catalyst, I can see how they win.  Syntax matters and they have less extra stuff you have to type to get work done.
15:43 PerlJam speaking of web frameworks ... how is Web.pm coming along?
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16:03 patmat argh, cant get rakudo running on that windows machine, hrm
16:04 patmat even git port is closed
16:05 [particle] try git clone http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/master
16:05 arnsholt What does the make function/operator/thing do in regexes?
16:06 [particle] 'make' generates the ast
16:07 [particle] which can then be extracted with Match.ast
16:07 patmat soo initializing.. wait wait
16:07 arnsholt [particle]: Aha. Thanks. And I pass anything I want it to have as children as arguments?
16:07 patmat download error- failed connect to github.com:80; No error
16:08 Eimi left #perl6
16:08 [particle] arnsholt: you pass what you want to generate the ast of
16:09 [particle] / (\d+) { make $0 ) / # create the ast for the number matched
16:09 [particle] / (\d+) { make $0.sqrt ) / # create the ast for the square root of the number matched
16:10 arnsholt Righties
16:10 cspencer joined #perl6
16:11 arnsholt Frustratingly enough, { make $0 } causes a syntax error
16:12 [particle] inside a regex, in rakudo?
16:12 arnsholt Yah.
16:12 [particle] yeah, doesn't work yet.
16:12 [particle] you can't embed perl 6 closures in rakudo regexes yet iirc
16:12 arnsholt Damn. That'd be a real relief
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17:01 revdiablo joined #perl6
17:03 revdiablo I just noticed that unary = was killed in favor of .get() and .lines().  Any suggestions on where I can read up on the discussion that lead up to that?
17:04 revdiablo I think it's a nice change, but it seems to have changed suddenly after sitting in the spec for a long time
17:04 azawawi joined #perl6
17:04 azawawi hi
17:04 pmurias_ joined #perl6
17:05 literal azawawi: perl6.vim has moved to https://github.com/hinrik/vim-perl
17:09 sri_kraih_ joined #perl6
17:13 azawawi joined #perl6
17:21 cspencer is there any way of getting at the unicode accent info on a character? (ie. identifying that a character contains an umlaut)
17:21 cspencer (in either PIR or P6)
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17:22 [particle] revdiablo: it's in the irclog over the past few days
17:24 revdiablo [particle]: I've been looking through there, I see discussions about the consequences of the decision... but I still wonder how the decision came in the first place
17:25 revdiablo [particle]: It looks like it's out of the blue, but that's probably because I haven't been following well enough
17:26 [particle] revdiablo: could have been in person at npw, i suppose
17:27 [particle] i didn't see the discussion either, but i don't read scrollback
17:27 revdiablo Would be interesting to know how it came up... though really I'm glad, I like lines() and get() a lot better.
17:30 [particle] i'll miss the standard fish operator =<>
17:31 [particle] but, that's okay.
17:31 skids revdiablo: it's my understanding that it happened at the oslo conference.
17:32 PerlJam =<> went away?
17:32 * skids kinda liked the mnemonic of hotting "=" on a calculator to repeat the last operation.
17:32 [particle] prefix:<=> is dead dead dead
17:32 skids But yeah it was scary in some places, e.g. = =$it
17:32 * Tene also mourns the loss of the fish operator.
17:32 PerlJam oh!  so what takes prefix:<=>'s place?
17:32 skids .get
17:33 Tene PerlJam: .get() and .lines()
17:33 Tene for a single line and all lines
17:34 * skids could have sworn he saw .end mentioned in an svn log but still its .eof and .eoi in spec.
17:34 skids Mustabeen a hllucination
17:35 PerlJam how does one do the while(<>) { ... } idiom in perl 6  then?
17:35 PerlJam I don't know what the iterator is called.
17:35 * skids suggests .eoi also be specced to return Inf for "it is known this will never stop, so don't bother asking anymore"
17:35 revdiablo PerlJam: while (lines()) {}
17:36 PerlJam and lines() knows to work on files from @*ARGS or $*IN ?
17:36 revdiablo PerlJam: From what I understand, yeah.  Let me find the spec patch, it includes that example.
17:36 [particle] for <>.lines {}
17:37 [particle] while is a perl5ism
17:37 PerlJam ah, the "null iterator" still exists though?  It's just prefix:<=> that's died?
17:37 [particle] prefix:<=> is dead dead dead
17:37 PerlJam for ''.lines { ... }   seems weird  :)
17:39 azawawi interesting
17:40 PerlJam I liked prefix:<=>,  why did it die?
17:40 revdiablo PerlJam: That's what I was trying to find out too
17:41 * [particle] doesn't know, but hopes to raise the question in the design meeting tomorrow
17:42 revdiablo PerlJam: btw, http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.​perl6.language/2009/04/msg31458.html
17:42 revdiablo PerlJam: The patch has lots of before-and-after code examples
17:43 PerlJam revdiablo: thanks.  I must've just deleted that message from my inbox without reading.
17:43 revdiablo I started searching because I saw this, http://twitter.com/rakudoperl/status/1564922056
17:44 PerlJam Hmm. for @$handle {...}  makes me think that I could do  $thingy = $$handle; too
17:45 arnsholt Am I right in thinking that the parsing of regexes is defined only in PIR, in quote_expression.pir?
17:46 PerlJam ah,  $*ARGFILES
17:46 PerlJam I hadn't seen that before.
17:47 LadyLunacy joined #perl6
17:47 revdiablo Ah, $*ARGFILES is the replacement for magical <>?
17:48 revdiablo Also I was a tad curious about the rakudo commit that pushed it past 10k passing tests
17:49 PerlJam That's where pmichaud fixed all sort of unicode stuff.
17:50 revdiablo All these mysterious goings-on, pleasant surprises coming out of the blue =)
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18:09 skids arnsholt: I think so, but pmichaud could forklift STD.pm in without much warning there, so don't expend too much effort.
18:12 * skids adds stuff to http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?perl6_tasks just to keep it full after oslo results resolve a bunch of it :-)
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18:36 moritz_ can you guys see the favicon on http://perl6-projects.org/ ?
18:36 moritz_ it shows as a red box on firefox 3, but works with other browser
18:36 PerlJam is it supposed to be camelia?
18:36 Tene red box for me
18:36 cspencer moritz_: i see a red box
18:36 moritz_ PerlJam: it is
18:37 skids red box here.
18:37 literal red box here
18:37 [particle] ff3 red box
18:37 literal firefox 3
18:37 PerlJam red box here too (FF3 on linux)
18:37 * moritz_ lost
18:37 moritz_ ah
18:37 moritz_ opening it in gimp reveals three layers
18:38 moritz_ I didn't know that .icos could have it
18:38 [particle] ie7 camelia
18:39 PhatEddy joined #perl6
18:39 moritz_ epiphany browser: camelia
18:40 PhatEddy rakudo: my @x; print "ok\n" if defined (@x)
18:40 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«ok␤»
18:40 Tene moritz_: maybe they can't (hence the issue)
18:40 skids flattened in gimp and it displays in ff3 now as local file.
18:40 moritz_ skids: care to check that in?
18:40 skids Where's it at?
18:40 PhatEddy Just noticed RT 64928 on definedness and thought my smaller example might be relevant ...
18:40 moritz_ I removed the other locally here, but then I'll loose the background
18:41 PhatEddy You don't see the OK with p5
18:41 moritz_ skids: docs/feather/perl6-projects.org/favicon.ico
18:43 rindolf joined #perl6
18:43 pugs_svn r26353 | skids++ | Flatten favicon.ico for FF3
18:43 moritz_ skids++
18:43 xinming joined #perl6
18:44 PerlJam so ... does perl6-projects.org update automatically?
18:45 PerlJam (i.e., If I reload, will I see the camelia favicon?)
18:45 moritz_ yes, every 10 or 15 minutes or so
18:45 rblasch joined #perl6
18:45 moritz_ but most browsers cache the favicon much longer than normal images
18:46 moritz_ so even if it's updated you might not see it
18:48 moritz_ ok, updated now
18:49 PerlJam cool
18:50 payload joined #perl6
18:52 PhatEddy I am vaguely wondering whether my example is the same bug or a related one requiring a new ticket referencing the existing 64928.  Any thoughts?
18:52 moritz_ (everyone who helped with perl6-projects.org)++ # feedback also counts
18:54 M_o_C also works with opera, btw
18:54 frettled BTW, is Camelia licensed in the public domain, creative commons $foo, or something else?
18:55 M_o_C nevermind my last message, my scrollbar ended up a few lines above...
18:55 moritz_ frettled: you have to ask TimToady, but most stuff in the pugs repo is Artistic 2, so I'd guess that's it
18:56 frettled moritz_: ok.
18:56 * skids hopes TimToady/perlfoundation trademark-lefts "use of the image of a butterfly in conjunction with Perl6"
18:56 alester Is that Official?
18:57 alester That  the butterfly is the P6 animal?
18:57 moritz_ (usually I don't use images before knowning the licence before, but I couldn't imagine TimToady complaining about spreading the logo ;-)
18:57 szabgab joined #perl6
18:57 literal probably unless/until someone comes up with a better suggestion :)
18:57 moritz_ alester: it's an official candidate, and will be the one unless somebody suggests something that Larry likes better ;-)
18:58 literal alester: btw, I forked your vim-perl repo
18:58 frettled moritz_: Oh, I wasn't wondering whether perl6-projects.org had permission, I thought that was given.
18:58 rindolf joined #perl6
18:58 alester literal: Good, if you have stuff to merge back, od let me know.
18:59 alester I just started it, but have done precious little.
18:59 moritz_ frettled: it wasn't, I just hoped I had :)
18:59 frettled moritz_: it's covered by TimToady's policy of �better to ask forgiveness than permission� ;)�
18:59 moritz_ frettled: yes
19:01 meppl good night
19:02 azawawi left #perl6
19:02 cspencer moritz_: i added the "samecase" method to Any.pm last week, and I was wondering if you had any insight as to how I might do "sameaccent"
19:03 moritz_ cspencer: I implemented in perl 5, wait a sec...
19:03 cspencer in particular, i dont know how i might get at the accent data for characters
19:03 cspencer thanks :)
19:03 moritz_ Perl6::Str
19:04 cspencer does that do sameaccent?
19:04 frettled moritz_: http://howcaniexplainthis.blogspot.com/ - I shrunk it to a size suitable for various sidebars and stuff
19:04 moritz_ frettled: there's a svg version in misc/ in the pugs repo
19:05 frettled moritz_: yeah, if I click it, I get the svg version, but svg doesn't work well in all browsers always; PNG is more web friendly.
19:05 pmichaud hello, all
19:06 moritz_ cspencer: http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/MORI​TZ/Perl6-Str-0.0.3/lib/Perl6/Str.pm - it relies on unicode normalization
19:06 cspencer moritz_: found it, it wasn't in the perldocs so i looked at the source :)
19:06 pmichaud the scariest instance of prefix:<=> that we found was reading from an embedded pod section.
19:06 pmichaud my $line = =$=pod;
19:07 PhatEddy rakudo: my @x; say 'ok' if @x.defined
19:07 p6eval rakudo 69b318: OUTPUT«ok␤»
19:07 frettled pmichaud: welcome back, looks like you had a safe trip back home.
19:07 PhatEddy golf
19:07 pmichaud I'm not home yet :-)
19:07 pmichaud my flight in Newark is delayed.
19:08 frettled ah!
19:08 pmichaud The discussion about prefix:<=> that led to its demise took place at the Oslo hackathon, yes.
19:08 pmichaud It was a very interesting discussion.  But when it was over, TimToady++ was extremely eager to get it out of the spec.  And the tests.  :-)
19:08 pmichaud Personally, I'm really glad to see it go.  It was causing implementation issues.
19:08 pmichaud (which is why it came up for discussion in the first place.)
19:08 masak the discussion started as a discussion about laziness.
19:08 frettled I think I walked in just when the decision had been made.
19:09 pmichaud if people are really interested for the details, I could probably summarize the discussions in a blog post.
19:09 frettled That was one of several times I walked by, saw something new and interesting on the whiteboard, and got to learn some more.
19:09 literal do all iterators then have a .get now?
19:09 skids literal: if moritz_ commits my patch :-)
19:10 frettled pmichaud: please do, I think it will help in answering the questions from people who weren't there.
19:10 pmichaud literal: that's not certain yet.  AFAIK iterators still respond more to "shift" than to "get".
19:10 pmichaud Perhaps they're synonymous.
19:10 moritz_ skids: or if somebody else does - I claim insufficient knowledge in that area to decide
19:10 literal oh, that'd be cool
19:11 skids pmichaud: is it still .eoi .eof for end testing?
19:11 pmichaud skids: we didn't discuss those.
19:11 pmichaud (which means no change yet. :-)
19:11 PhatEddy The small example looks a bit like a few other tickets but seems different.  Any objection to my opening a new one?
19:12 moritz_ PhatEddy: go right ahead, we can still merge them
19:12 skids TimToady replaced prefix:<=> with .get in S07 (I think it was him) so if that can be used as an indication...
19:14 skids (I only picked off one straggler there, the rest had all been done before I opened the file)
19:14 orafu joined #perl6
19:15 dalek rakudo: e31a6f8 | pmichaud++ | src/ (2 files):
19:15 dalek rakudo: Remove obsolete fish operator ("=<>").  It didn't work anyway.
19:15 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​31a6f881356f0f5a217d84b39238727a2dc969f
19:15 dalek rakudo: 6ea0aa1 | pmichaud++ | src/classes/ (2 files):
19:15 dalek rakudo: More fixes to Match objects.
19:15 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​ea0aa164d0a6fab90a03974bc06215efb3823c1
19:16 moritz_ pmichaud: what do you mean by "it didn't work anyway"?
19:16 pmichaud the implementation was wrong.
19:16 pmichaud It just iterated over @*ARGS
19:17 moritz_ oh
19:17 pmichaud so, if anyone was using it, they were using it wrongly.  :-)
19:18 * literal looks over the symbols on his keyboard. Looks like backticks and the backslash are the only ones not used by Perl 6, or am I missing something?
19:18 moritz_ literal: backslash is used
19:18 literal what for?
19:18 moritz_ literal: backticks are left out intentionally
19:18 moritz_ literal: for captures
19:18 literal oh
19:19 literal not using backticks is good though, they can be hard to see
19:19 pmichaud backslash is also "unspace"
19:19 moritz_ right
19:19 moritz_ and used iin regexes all over ;-)
19:19 literal oh right, forgt about unspace
19:19 fridim_ joined #perl6
19:19 skids http://www.perlfoundation.or​g/perl6/index.cgi?witch_hack
19:19 moritz_ pmichaud: when we bump PARROT_REVISION we can re-enable autothreading.t
19:20 moritz_ pmichaud: should I do that?
19:20 PhatEddy left #perl6
19:21 pmichaud PARROT_REVISION will bump to the Parrot 1.1.0 release when it's done.
19:21 pmichaud Then it has to remain there until the Rakudo release.
19:21 moritz_ ok
19:21 pmichaud if the tests pass with a current PARROT_REVISIOn bump, it's okay with me.
19:22 pmichaud since the parrot release is expected within the new few hours anyway (barring any problems encountered), it might just be worth waiting.
19:22 pmichaud up to you.  :-)
19:22 moritz_ I can wait for the release
19:22 pmichaud btw, 6ea0aa1 fixes #63616 .
19:22 pmichaud (and quite a few others :-)
19:23 moritz_ half of them by me, probably ;-)
19:24 skids pmichaud: any thoughts on .iterator versus .Iterator on a spec level?
19:25 pmichaud skids:  not at the moment.
19:25 pmichaud (more)
19:26 literal .iter :P
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19:26 moritz_ pmichaud: RT #63616 will be tested indirectly as soon as I unfudge S05-capture/caps.t - is that sufficient for you? (Match.caps and match.chunks both use the fixes)
19:26 pmichaud moritz_: sure.
19:26 pmichaud that's what I was hoping for.
19:27 moritz_ it seems that I have other bugs in .caps that I didn't even reach before, but the basic thing works now
19:27 pmichaud yes, there are a few bugs in .caps
19:28 pmichaud skids:  On one hand, we have .Str for getting a Str and .Num for getting a Num
19:28 skids And that typewise behavior is specced generally, I believe.
19:28 pmichaud skids: On the other hand,  we have  .list and .hash for getting a List or Hash
19:28 moritz_ and .true for Bool
19:29 pmichaud and .match for Match :-)
19:29 skids well, true isn't the downcased name of a type
19:29 moritz_ I haven't seen that
19:29 pmichaud moritz_: much of the smartmatching table is defined in terms of .match :-)
19:29 * skids tries to swallow .match as a coerce.
19:30 moritz_ pmichaud: ah, but that's not coercing to a Match, isn't it?
19:30 pmichaud moritz_: it would be in the same sense that .iterator is coercing to an Iterator :-)
19:31 pmichaud I don't think of getting an Iterator as a coercion.
19:31 moritz_ you've got a point there
19:31 pmichaud beyond that, for any given .iterator we're not guaranteed to get exactly an Iterator.  We get something that "does Iterator".
19:31 pmichaud For example, iterating a Range results in a RangeIterator
19:32 pmichaud so, I totally agree with the notion that we should be consistent... but it's a little difficult to know exactly what that consistency is/should be.
19:33 pmichaud Perhaps TimToady has a rule of thumb he uses to decide these things; if so, I don't know what it is.
19:34 skids OK, well it's on the things to haunt TimToady with list now :-)
19:37 pmichaud oh?  where's that list kept?  ;-)
19:38 moritz_ I started a small list in t/TASKS, but that's not the one skids is refering to, I think
19:38 orafu joined #perl6
19:39 pmichaud well, I kept a list on the Oslo hackathon notes :-)
19:39 skids pmichaud: grep { not is_answer_obvious } @perl6_tasks_wiki_page
19:40 pmichaud I'm wandering off to see if I can grab a snack.
19:41 pmichaud bbiab
19:41 pugs_svn r26354 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix and unfudge caps.t (I wrote half of that with Perl 5 in mind, it seems :/ )
19:42 ejs joined #perl6
19:44 dalek rakudo: a76abb3 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | src/setting/Match.pm:
19:44 dalek rakudo: fix .value confusion in Match.caps
19:44 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a​76abb3e95b45f3604e0ec99218f2c17cb370b45
19:51 skids stronger words than "coerce": extort, pry, gouge   :-)
19:52 orafu joined #perl6
19:53 cspencer is there a .Int for getting an integer value or is that just .int?
19:53 masak is there something like this in Perl 5 or 6? http://docs.python.org/library/time.html#time.strftime
19:53 [particle] isn't it Int(...) ?
19:54 masak I usually do int(...) :)
19:54 moritz_ masak: POSIX::strftime
19:54 moritz_ masak: in Perl 5
19:54 masak moritz_: thanks.
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20:05 cspencer i suppose I'm more asking when a class can define an Int method to determine how it int-ifies
20:05 cspencer s/when/whether/
20:05 moritz_ I think it can
20:06 moritz_ rakudo: class A { method Int { 3 } }; say A.new.int()
20:06 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;' pc 2119 (src/classes/Object.pir:719)␤»
20:06 moritz_ lol
20:06 cspencer moritz_: it's probably a similar patch to the get_number one you'd applied to Object.pir the other day
20:06 cspencer i can do it later on this evening
20:07 [particle] rakudo: class A { method int { 3 } }; say A.new.int()
20:07 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«3␤»
20:07 cspencer hmmm
20:07 [particle] Int vs int
20:07 cspencer or there's that method too :)
20:07 Tene rakudo: class A { method int { 3 } }; my A $a .= new(); say +$a;
20:07 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: 'parrot;Perl6Object;' pc 2119 (src/classes/Object.pir:719)␤»
20:07 Tene rakudo: class A { method Num { 3 } }; my A $a .= new(); say +$a;
20:07 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«3␤»
20:08 moritz_ maybe we'll just leave it as-is
20:08 cspencer alright
20:08 cspencer i believe i had a patch to Range.pm that needed something along that lines, though I'll look at that again later too
20:09 Tene pmichaud: can you confirm that the $() syntax for getting the AST is deprecated, and languages should update to .ast() ?
20:10 skids In the case of int here really is both an Int and an int type.
20:11 skids what would put the kibosh on any "lets make lowercase ones have different semantics" ideas.
20:12 masak rakudo: /<[\-] + alpha>/
20:12 p6eval rakudo a76abb:  ( no output )
20:12 masak rakudo: /<alpha + [\-]>/
20:12 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Quantifier follows nothing in regex at offset 9, found ' '␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Perl6Regex;parse_error' pc 10792 (compilers/pge/PGE/Perl6Regex.pir:1367)␤»
20:12 moritz_ uhm
20:12 * masak feels he has not yet reached the bottom of the richness of S05...
20:12 moritz_ is that allowed?
20:12 masak apparently not :P
20:12 moritz_ std:  /<alpha + [\-]>/
20:12 p6eval std 26354: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/IPdcuHMWZz line 1:␤------> [32m/<alpha +[31m [\-]>/[0m␤    expecting quantmod␤FAILED 00:03 35m␤»
20:12 masak oh.
20:13 masak I stand corrected.
20:13 moritz_ masak: I guess whitespaces are only allowed if the beginning identifies it as a character class
20:13 moritz_ std: /<+alpha + [\-]>/
20:13 p6eval std 26354: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
20:13 moritz_ std: /<-alpha + [\-]>/
20:13 p6eval std 26354: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
20:13 masak ah. there you go.
20:14 moritz_ otherwise it's parsed as <rule $args>
20:14 pmichaud Tene: yes, confirm that $(...) becomes .ast()
20:15 pmichaud but .ast also works now (parens not required)
20:15 orafu joined #perl6
20:16 pmichaud it actually ends up being parsed as <rule pattern>
20:16 Tene pmichaud: so should I update rakudo's actions.pm to .ast()?
20:16 pmichaud Tene:  if you want to do that, yes.  But it might also be worthwhile to wait until after April release.
20:17 Tene howso worthwhile?
20:17 pmichaud I dunno -- just don't want little things to delay me :-)
20:17 pmichaud also we'll probably prefer .ast to .ast()
20:17 moritz_ put it into a branch
20:17 Tene pmichaud: will it delay you if I update $() to .ast ?
20:18 pmichaud Tene: if it doesn't work or causes an issue, it might :-)
20:18 pmichaud Tene: anyway, as long as spectests keep passing, I'm okay with it :-)
20:18 pmichaud if it were me doing it, I'd be waiting until after the release (only because I have other things to focus on :-)
20:18 pmichaud argggh, flight delayed even further.
20:18 masak rakudo: "foo" ~~ /<nonesuch>/ # does RT know about this one?
20:19 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«Unable to find regex 'nonesuch'␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Grammar;' pc 259 (EVAL_15:115)␤»
20:19 moritz_ masak: yes.
20:19 masak moritz_: guessed so. thanks.
20:19 pmichaud what did you expect it to do (differently)?
20:20 moritz_ not have a Null PMC access?
20:20 masak aye, that.
20:20 pmichaud but dying would be okay, yes?
20:20 masak sure.
20:20 moritz_ sure
20:20 masak Perl 6 is all about dying.
20:20 pmichaud ...and living to tell the tale.
20:20 Tene okay, looks like I'm done.  Testing a bit before commit.
20:21 pmichaud ..."a bit"?
20:21 Tene ;)
20:21 masak testing if it's 1 or 0...
20:22 moritz_ btw we might have lost some test numbers on the Str.reverse -> flip renaming, and on the .get/.lines thing (because they made stuff easier, hence less to test)
20:23 pmichaud that's okay.
20:23 moritz_ aye
20:23 moritz_ just wanted to explain some possible humps in the plot :)
20:23 pmichaud speaking of which, I haven't updated today's plot.
20:23 * pmichaud starts that.
20:26 pmichaud looks like the Parrot 1.1.0 revision will be 38250 -- running spectests on that now.  If that passes, we can bump PARROT_REVISION to that (and hold it there until tomorrow night).
20:27 moritz_ pmichaud: I'm also running that spectest now ;)
20:27 * masak wants XPath for Match objects
20:27 moritz_ ... with S03-junctions/autothreading.t re-enabled
20:27 jedai joined #perl6
20:27 pmichaud moritz++
20:28 payload joined #perl6
20:28 frettled pmichaud: BTW, do you recall that small discussion regarding representation and presentation of complex number that we had after your talk on hacking Rakudo?  I said I was going to look at that during the hackathon, but I lead myself astray by actually wanting to get an overview first.  I'm not quite there yet, but am I right in thinking that it should be in S02?
20:28 pmichaud frettled: good question.
20:28 * moritz_ thinks that much that's in S02 now should be elsewhere
20:29 masak buubot: spack complex
20:29 buubot masak: S02-bits.pod:5 S09-data.pod:6 S22-package-format.pod:1 S29-functions.pod:8
20:29 pmichaud Since that's where Int/Num/Str/others are listed, it would seem like the immediate place.
20:29 pmichaud OTOH, it might go better in S32
20:29 pmichaud or S03 (operators)
20:30 pmichaud certainly the sqrt() stuff likely belongs in S32
20:30 frettled Yep.
20:30 frettled From my preliminary look-see, I thought I would have to stuff it in two, three, or possibly four different places.
20:31 pmichaud I'd suggest trying to consolidate it into fewer places, not more.
20:31 frettled And I think it would also be beneficial to write something general about data representation, in a separate paragraph, since that seems to be all over the place.
20:31 frettled Yes.
20:49 * masak frowns at the new, improved inability to introspect $/ in Rakudo
20:50 moritz_ masak: hum, what's wrong now?
20:50 frettled masak: you liked the old, worse inability to introspect $/ better?
20:50 masak frettled: I'm just trying to find a way through the current inability.
20:50 moritz_ Match.perl now works in more cases than before, I think
20:50 pmichaud are there cases where it's not working?
20:51 masak hm. maybe I'm running an old Rakudo.
20:51 pmichaud (I can believe that there are... just curious about them)
20:51 moritz_ masak: in which case (except Perl6::Grammar) does it fail?
20:51 moritz_ same here
20:51 masak I'll update and continue complaing afterwards. :)
20:51 pmichaud okay.  I may be boarding a plane by then, though.  ;-|
20:51 masak the specific problems I had were with $/.hash and %($_).keys
20:51 moritz_ I still have some segfaults during make() calls
20:52 moritz_ masak: did you get Null PMC accesses?
20:52 pmichaud %/.hash was previously broken, no question about it.  So was %($_).keys
20:52 masak moritz_: aye, on get_bool() for the former and can() for the latter.
20:52 masak pmichaud: but in bleeding it works?
20:52 pmichaud it works more than it used to, certainly.
20:53 masak Rakudo is all about bleeding.
20:53 Matt-W Evening
20:53 masak Matt-W: o/
20:53 frettled masak: and remember: down, not across
20:53 pmichaud I have a significant update for Regexes in one of my local checkouts
20:53 masak Matt-W: I was told to remind you...
20:53 Matt-W to do some work on Form?
20:53 pmichaud it allows us to distinguish Regex from other types of blocks
20:53 masak Matt-W: I think so, yes.
20:53 pmichaud but it depends on a parrot update, which means it'll have to wait until after the release.
20:54 masak Matt-W: at least push your interesting failures so I can see them :)
20:54 Matt-W [matthew@asymptote rakudo]$ git pull
20:54 Matt-W Updating 7a22e0d..a76abb3
20:54 Matt-W error: Entry 'build/gen_parrot.pl' not uptodate. Cannot merge.
20:54 Matt-W any ideas?
20:54 frettled pmichaud: so we essentially have to bully someone into fixifying parrot soonish, then.
20:54 masak Matt-W: dirty working copy.
20:54 Matt-W I've done make realclean
20:54 masak nonono.
20:54 pmichaud frettled: no, I have the parrot fix in queue also.
20:54 masak Matt-W: git status
20:54 Matt-W oooh
20:54 Matt-W I remember
20:54 Matt-W I played with it
20:55 pmichaud But I didn't want to push my fix to parrot just an hour before its release.
20:55 masak thought so.
20:55 * Matt-W feels stupid now
20:55 frettled pmichaud: ah!
20:55 pmichaud And I don't want to make the April Rakudo release dependent on anything but a Parrot release
20:55 masak Matt-W: that's why it's called "git". :)
20:55 Matt-W I should've remembered
20:55 skids lol
20:55 Matt-W I just assume I never edit the rakudo code, but I did...
20:56 Matt-W now I can't remember how to unmodify it
20:56 masak Matt-W: git stash
20:56 skids Will loops returning Lists be waiting until after a lazy overhaul?
20:56 pmichaud ...anyone have suggestions about dealing with spectests in releases?  should I bundle a copy of the current spectests into the tarball, or should I adjust the makefile to pull the correct revision of spectests?
20:56 Matt-W that puts it off to one side somehow doesn't it
20:56 masak Matt-W: or, if you don't want to keep the change, git checkout
20:57 pmichaud skids: likely as part of lazy overhaul
20:57 Matt-W mmm git stash apply
20:57 Matt-W cunning
20:57 pmichaud skids: or perhaps even more likely as part of implementing NEXT/LAST/REDO blocks
20:57 moritz_ pmichaud: pull a specific version
20:57 masak Matt-W: I see you went with the former method.
20:57 frettled pmichaud: I'd say "both please".
20:58 pmichaud I think I'll go with "pull a specific version"
20:58 Matt-W masak: well the patch is a hack that builds parrot in parallel so I thought I might keep it
20:58 masak ah, nice.
20:58 frettled I like having them in the tarball, because that means they're available offline as well.
20:59 frettled (okay, so you could always unroll the tarball, run the appropriate make command, and reroll it if you plan on being without a connection)
21:00 masak both my problems went away after updating Rakudo. now I have a new one. I get a StopIteration when doing $/.perl
21:00 * masak looks at source
21:00 pmichaud the .perl method has a big bug, yes.
21:00 * source looks innocent
21:00 pmichaud I saw that while looking at Match in general
21:00 pmichaud It doesn't know how to handle quantified captures.
21:00 pmichaud i.e., it assumes that every named/positional entry will be a Match.  But sometimes they're lists of matches.
21:01 masak right.
21:01 moritz_ I'll look into it
21:01 masak I have such a $/.
21:01 masak moritz_++
21:02 masak yup, that's it.
21:02 masak rakudo: regex f { f }; regex o { o }; "foo" ~~ /<f> <o>/; say $/.perl
21:02 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this is not working perl code␤ # and for debugging purposes only␤ ast  => "fo",␤ text => "fo",␤ from => 0,␤ to   => 2,␤ named => {␤  'f' => Match.new(␤    ast  => "f",␤    text => "f",␤    from => 0,␤    to   => 1,␤   ),␤  'o' => Match.new(␤    ast  =>
21:02 p6eval .."o",...
21:02 masak rakudo: regex f { f }; regex o { o }; "foo" ~~ /<f> <o>+ /; say $/.perl
21:02 p6eval rakudo a76abb: OUTPUT«StopIteration␤current instr.: 'parrot;Match;_block2802' pc 56671 (src/gen_setting.pir:10137)␤»
21:02 * masak submits rakudobug
21:03 wknight8111 joined #perl6
21:03 pmichaud oops, looks like my plane will board soon.
21:04 [particle] safe flight, ttyl
21:04 masak pmichaud: have a safe flight. watch out for snakes!
21:04 frettled I'll sign that one.
21:04 Matt-W remember, the windows on a plane don't open
21:04 Matt-W so no smashing
21:04 pmichaud moritz:  if spectests pass for you using r38250, feel free to bump PARROT_REVISION
21:05 Matt-W right, time to see if I get the same crash with latest rakudo
21:05 pmichaud see you all tomorrow
21:05 pmichaud (unlikely I'll be on tonight -- it's a looooong day today.  Feels like it's about 11p :-)
21:05 dalek rakudo: 7c8346d | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
21:05 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 373 files, 10389 passing, 0 failing
21:05 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​c8346df9fde58fae401d99e81cdc0d6621c3bcb
21:06 dolmen joined #perl6
21:07 Matt-W woohoo, splat
21:09 frettled pmichaud: strange thing, that ;)
21:10 Matt-W hmm, no splat
21:11 fridim_ joined #perl6
21:11 masak does 'given' have any guarantees about only eval'ing its topic once?
21:11 masak say, 'given rand { ... }' or something.
21:11 Matt-W it would be quite nice if it did
21:12 masak Matt-W: sometimes necessary.
21:12 moritz_ masak: what do you mean by "once" - once per call?
21:12 masak moritz_: once per given.
21:13 masak just like 4 < $a < 10 promises only to look at $a once.
21:13 dalek rakudo: ad73895 | (Moritz Lenz)++ |  (2 files):
21:13 dalek rakudo: bump PARROT_REVISION to parrot-1.1 release
21:13 dalek rakudo: Also re-enable a test which was broken before by a parrot change
21:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a​d738953efe34c6c5187498cebc24b621835ef33
21:13 literal what software is dalek running?
21:14 moritz_ masak: so for 1..100 { given rand { ... } } should evaluate rand only once?
21:14 Matt-W masak: form isn't crashing anymore, somoene must have already fixed it
21:14 Matt-W masak: but it doesn't actually *work* right
21:14 masak Matt-W: that's software in a nutshell, sir.
21:15 masak moritz_: no, that's not what I meant.
21:15 Matt-W masak: aye
21:15 masak once per dynamic given, not once per static given.
21:16 * masak grasps for words
21:16 moritz_ masak: for me 'given' is just a normal sub call that sets $_ for the block's caller (but it has a grammar rule)
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21:17 masak moritz_: right, but in the case of 'given rand', it sets $_ to the value of the 'rand' call, and then leaves it alone, right?
21:17 Matt-W oh man now I feel even stupider
21:17 Matt-W the tests were wrong, not the algorithm
21:17 masak that happens sometimes.
21:17 masak that's why we have metatests. :P
21:18 moritz_ masak: sure
21:18 masak good. I'm happy with that.
21:18 * Matt-W pushes the changes
21:18 Matt-W I need to decide on a consistent naming policy
21:18 Matt-W I've got some methods_like_this and some methods-like-this
21:19 masak tell me about it...
21:19 Matt-W the disadvantage of using - is that vim doesn't see them as words
21:19 Matt-W which can be handy when editing
21:19 [particle] -++ _--
21:19 Matt-W but _ is not as nice to read or type on an english keyboard
21:20 masak screw vim. use -
21:21 Matt-W it's a minor inconvenience :)
21:21 [particle] vim can be bent to recognize - as a word char for perl 6 files
21:23 Matt-W good point
21:23 kidd :set isk+=-
21:23 kidd (IIRC)
21:24 moritz_ it's not so easy
21:24 literal that will mess with the highlighting though :P
21:24 literal kidd: that changes \k
21:24 moritz_ - is only part of an identifier if it's between two letters
21:25 kidd oh, so it's not so simple.. :/
21:25 [particle] check the perl6.vim in pugs repo
21:26 moritz_ no, the one on github ;-)
21:26 literal latest version is here now: https://github.com/hinrik/vim-perl
21:26 [particle] ah
21:31 literal Matt-W: how is it a disadvantage though? do you often need to highlight all identifiers or something?
21:31 Matt-W no I just tend to use cw to replace the name of a method or something
21:31 masak my, that's a new one: "Object must be created by a class." from PGE...
21:31 masak what did I do? :)
21:32 Matt-W oh if it's PGE it must be pmichaud's fault...
21:32 masak yep.
21:32 literal Matt-W: hm, but how is a wildcard useful in that case, when you know the name of the method?
21:32 moritz_ literal: another good use is * or # which search the current word forward/backward - it would be nice if that search for the whole sub/method name
21:32 moritz_ I use that a lot
21:32 literal ah
21:33 hercynium joined #perl6
21:33 Matt-W because if I typed the name of the method, I might as well just hit x that many times and switch into insert mode
21:33 literal arguably the method name consists of more than one word if it's got a dash in it :)
21:33 Matt-W yes but what I'm really using as 'word' in programme code is generally 'identifier'
21:34 literal are there no quick movement commands for \i like \w is for words?
21:35 PerlJam literal: <ident>   :)
21:35 literal though \i is sort of useless because vim discourages changing it, it might break stuff
21:35 literal isident, that is
21:35 moritz_ literal: of course you could re-define * and # in a Perl 6 ft plugin... but I fear I lack the vim knowledge
21:37 masak rakudo: regex o { o }; "foo" ~~ /f<o>+/; say $<o>.WHAT; say ~$<o>
21:38 p6eval rakudo ad7389: OUTPUT«List␤2␤»
21:38 * masak was expecting 'oo' there
21:38 * moritz_ too
21:38 * masak submits rakudobug
21:38 Matt-W goodnight!
21:38 masak Matt-W: 'night
21:40 frettled http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/​blog/matt-s-trout/iron-man/ - JFDI
21:44 FurnaceBoy joined #perl6
21:44 masak I really like that.
21:45 moritz_ I've been preparing another blog post about how Perl 6 / Rakudo is great today
21:45 moritz_ but got distracted by Match.perl
21:45 moritz_ which is much more important, arguably
21:52 kate21de joined #perl6
21:52 frettled hehe
21:52 frettled Well, five blog lines don't cost much time.
21:53 frettled masak: I really enjoy mst's talks/rants.
21:53 masak I already blogged on Sunday, so I guess I'm Paper Man now.
21:53 frettled h5!
21:53 masak o/
21:53 frettled \o
21:54 frettled wait, wasn't I going to bed?
21:54 masak whoa! midnight!
21:54 masak that wasn't supposed to happen...
21:55 moritz_ speaking of which... I haven't managed to close in on the Match.perl bug so far :/
21:57 masak rakudo: say %("foo" ~~ /foo/).exists("foo")
21:57 p6eval rakudo ad7389: OUTPUT«Method 'exists' not found for invocant of class 'Hash'␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;dispatch' pc 662 (src/classes/ClassHOW.pir:171)␤»
21:57 masak that one's funny.
21:57 * masak submits rakudobug
21:59 moritz_ debugging a recursive function where I have no idea on which level it fails, and why, and without proper debugging tools is... hard
21:59 frettled g'night!
22:00 moritz_ any idea where a StopIteration comes from?
22:00 masak moritz_: aye.
22:00 moritz_ masak: please share.
22:00 masak just as pmichaud++ said, it occurs when a List is encountered.
22:00 masak the algo expects a Match.
22:00 moritz_ I meant more low-level
22:01 masak oh.
22:01 masak no, no idea. I haven't looked at the algorithm.
22:01 moritz_ like "whenever you try to iterate $something that's not iteratable" or something
22:01 masak well, StopIterations usually occur when elements don't add up in a for loop, so keep a watch out for that.
22:02 masak are there any 'for ... -> $a, $b, ... {' in the code?
22:02 moritz_ no
22:02 moritz_ oh
22:02 masak hm.
22:02 moritz_ wait
22:02 moritz_ sure there is
22:02 masak :)
22:02 moritz_ for %(self).kv
22:02 masak there you go.
22:03 moritz_ if .kv returns and odd sized list it's broken
22:04 masak aye.
22:06 * moritz_ wonders if strings should be represented as trees internally
22:06 * masak has to sleep now
22:06 masak see y'all tomorrow!
22:06 moritz_ so that a string concatenation is a mere pointer operation
22:06 moritz_ good night
22:10 PerlJam moritz_: you're familiar with judy-strings?
22:11 moritz_ PerlJam: no
22:11 [particle] judy++
22:13 PerlJam I don't have a link handy, but google for it.   audrey was incorporating them into pugs at one point.
22:25 majensen joined #perl6
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22:30 ilogger2 joined #perl6
22:30 * moritz_ is close to tackling the Match.perl problem
22:31 ispy_ joined #perl6
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22:42 lumi joined #perl6
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22:48 s1n frew|work: ping
22:50 skids joined #perl6
22:52 frew|work s1n: hey
22:56 moritz_ .say for @('ab' ~~ m/(.)+/)
22:57 moritz_ rakudo: .say for @('ab' ~~ m/(.)+/)
22:57 p6eval rakudo ad7389: OUTPUT«a␤b␤»
22:57 moritz_ rakudo: 'ab' ~~ m/(.)+/; say $0.WHAT
22:57 p6eval rakudo ad7389: OUTPUT«List␤»
22:57 moritz_ rakudo: 'ab' ~~ m/(.)+/; say $0.WHAT; say $1.WHAT
22:57 p6eval rakudo ad7389: OUTPUT«List␤Failure␤»
23:12 dalek rakudo: 50f6111 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | src/setting/Match.pm:
23:12 dalek rakudo: handle quantified captures in Match.perl
23:12 dalek rakudo: Actually this works only decently for named (and not positional) captures
23:12 dalek rakudo: because of another rakudobug (RT #64952).
23:12 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​0f6111550cdf341fee85e3ed0bd04f4dec936bf
23:22 dalek rakudo: 581f573 | (Stephen Weeks)++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
23:22 dalek rakudo: Migrate actions.pm to use .ast instead of $()
23:22 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​81f5735e9271bbac8de8d229c7efbb26677bb55
23:28 [particle]1 joined #perl6
23:30 kate21de1 joined #perl6
23:39 DemoFreak joined #perl6
23:52 s1n is there a perl6 equivalent to require?
23:55 orafu joined #perl6
23:57 skids s1n: require is specced, S11
23:58 dalek rakudo: 2665575 | (Stephen Weeks)++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
23:58 dalek rakudo: Fix actions.pm by replacing .ast() with .ast
23:58 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​66557519b67bd77107992ab0a08543a140141c2

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