Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-05-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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04:10 s1n moritz_: i'll have to respond tomorrow :/
04:31 frew can I do given $foo; to set $foo for the topic of the rest of the current scope?
04:31 frew rakudo: given 1; .say
04:31 p6eval rakudo 3412a2: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub given␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 60 (EVAL_18:47)␤»
04:31 frew well, it could be nice
04:34 TimToady no, that's not currently supported
04:34 TimToady but why wouldn't you just say $_ = 1?
04:35 TimToady (we do reserve the semicolon syntax for that sort of end-of-block semantics, but most of the time it would not contribute to readability)
04:35 frew that's true
04:37 frew I'd forgotten about manually setting it
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05:36 pugs_svn r26817 | lwall++ | [Cursor] remove accidental whitespace in :< x > macro
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08:12 Tene Ooo... when did rakudo spectest learn to run multiple in parallel?
08:12 moritz_ Tene: about a month (or two) ago
08:13 moritz_ commit ea9417560bd818e31419b6fcbdf3d265a93f186a
08:13 moritz_ Date:   Tue Apr 7 16:59:43 2009 +0200
08:13 moritz_ re-enable parallel testing in t/harness again
08:14 Tene Heh.
08:14 Tene OK
08:14 Tene Man, so many tests...
08:14 Tene la la la waiting for spectests...
08:16 Tene ♪ spectests song... ♪
08:16 moritz_ 15min with parrot configured with --optimize and parallel harness
08:16 Tene I didn't think to run it under time... :(
08:17 moritz_ the harness prints the "wallclock secs" at the end
08:17 Tene ah nice
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08:25 mberends Tene: be happy. spectest takes 2235 secs (~37min) on this dual AMD64
08:28 Tene Files=388, Tests=13826, 1105 wallclock secs ( 7.01 usr  1.73 sys + 1937.50 cusr 99.34 csys = 2045.58 CPU)
08:29 moritz_ mberends: but in serial mode, right?
08:29 moritz_ Tene: more importantly, did it PASS? :-)
08:29 moritz_ (except the known segfault in slice.t)
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08:30 Tene Oops, didn't mean to also push to the hll branch.
08:30 Tene moritz_:
08:30 Tene Test Summary Report
08:30 Tene -------------------
08:30 Tene t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t                               (Wstat: 0 Tests: 3 Failed: 2) Failed tests:  2-3
08:32 moritz_ Tene: could you re-run that test?
08:32 moritz_ it sometimes fails, seemingly randomly
08:32 moritz_ (but usually only the third fails)
08:32 dalek rakudo: 1064529 | tene++ |  (4 files):
08:32 dalek rakudo: Make everything actually compile under a different HLL.
08:32 dalek rakudo: Not completely right, but nothing too wrong either.
08:32 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​06452996dfcd185c24550bc3fb4a7b44a54de8f
08:33 Tene moritz_: yes, it passes all three
08:37 moritz_ Tene: in that commit one comment says "MUST BE LOWERCASE", but then you use get_hll_namespace ['Perl6';'Grammar']
08:37 moritz_ Tene: does that mean we have both 'perl6' and 'Perl6'?
08:39 Tene moritz_: get_hll_namespace [ ... ] == get_root_namespace [ 'perl6' ; ... ]
08:39 Tene so, yes.
08:39 Tene moritz_: the issue is that Parrot lowercases whatever HLL name we use
08:39 Tene so if we set 'Perl6' as the HLL name, the namespace would be get_root_whatever [ 'perl6' ]
08:40 moritz_ Tene: ah
08:40 Tene so in the case where we need to look at the hll namespace directly, it fails
08:40 moritz_ Tene: is that lower casing a parrot bug?
08:40 Tene which we do in src/parrot/Protoobject.pir
08:40 moritz_ and if yes, is there a ticket for it?
08:40 Tene it's a design issue.  I asked for feedback from it on the list, and I don't remember the overall response.
08:41 Tene It's currently working as specced.
08:41 Tene So, not an impl. bug, but maybe a design bug.
08:43 Tene no, I don't think there's a ticket for it.
08:43 Tene At least, I didn' tmake one.
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08:44 masak good beforenoon, perl 6 people.
08:44 lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:44 masak @messages
08:44 lambdabot eternaleye said 2h 59m 20s ago: (re set operations) something like this? -- multi sub infix:<⊂>( Any @subset_candidate, Any @superset_candidate --> Bool ) { return Bool::True if ( all( @subset_
08:44 lambdabot candidate ) ~~ any(@superset_candidate) ); }; say ([ 1, 3 ] ⊂ [ 1, 2, 3 ]).perl # Works in Pugs!
08:44 masak eternaleye: aye, something like that. :)
08:45 Tene there's a Set.pm in pugs that defines those.
08:45 masak eternaleye: there's also a Set.pm somewhere in the Pugs repo that defines... aye.
08:45 Tene :) masak++
08:46 masak thing is, I don't think anyone has the big picture on how Sets and Bags will play into the rest of the language.
08:46 masak as far as I see it, we don't want to introduce too much new syntax.
08:46 masak it would be best if the new features could just "blend in" somehow.
08:54 moritz_ masak: maybe ask TimToady, he often has a quite concrete (albeit not complete) idea in the back of his mind
08:55 masak yes. I expect to have plenty of discussions with TimToady (and the rest of #perl6) about Sets and Bags in the near future.
09:02 Tene hmm... decent number of failures in .HLL 'perl6'
09:02 Tene I have a vague idea about most of them.
09:02 Tene spectest still running, though... :(
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09:10 Tene Files=388, Tests=13422, 1563 wallclock secs ( 7.11 usr  1.41 sys + 2653.90 cusr 97.25 csys = 2759.67 CPU)
09:10 Tene spectests actually do run slower in .HLL 'perl6'
09:10 Tene they also fail a lot
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09:17 masak after backlogging, I just have one question:
09:17 masak "how  do u make your own chanle" :)
09:17 masak oh, and also how is babby formed.
09:19 masak mberends: it might be a good idea to start making a list of things that proto does not do, but that its successor ("pro-II"?) might.
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09:22 mberends does u rly want 2 get me started?
09:23 masak well... thinking about features has never hurt, I think.
09:23 masak it's still important not to overdesign, of course, but just listing features seems fairly harmless.
09:24 mberends mainly integrating with the 'use' command to be designed in August.
09:25 masak yes, absolutely.
09:25 masak also with the whole package idea championed by frettled++.
09:26 jnthn H H
09:26 mberends O   AI!
09:27 masak jnthn: o/
09:27 mberends it would be best to minimize dependencies, and avoid config files, environment variables and so on if possible.
09:27 masak aye.
09:27 masak make Perl 6 monolithic, in a sense.
09:28 masak one problem with CPAN is that it's very postmodern. it shows all the pipes sticking out, making me answer all these questions the first time, and then spewing out kilometer upon kilometer of make output.
09:29 masak proto was designed partly as a reaction against that.
09:29 moritz_ I think that proto could very well rely on some config file parsing module, but should simply include a copy of it
09:30 mberends that's when PERL6LIB should be phased out. There is a similar background and reasoning behind P5's PERLLIB, but the goals this time are a bit more ambitious. Yes, I think proto's config file idea is much better so far.
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09:30 masak the comments are out-of-date in config.proto, by the way. :/
09:30 masak I'll see if I'll have time to fix that.
09:30 Matt-W Fix them!
09:31 Matt-W Out of date comments are the source of much evil
09:31 masak Matt-W: aye, sir.
09:31 mberends I would not mind if ./perl6 also had a config file in /etc or wherever Windows should do similar.
09:31 masak mberends: sounds like a sane idea.
09:31 mberends just like bash etc
09:32 mberends TimToady was very against that in P5 though
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09:32 masak mberends: I'm sensing a disfactoring of Installer.pm coming up.
09:32 mberends and with good reason
09:32 masak mberends: thinking of creating a separate class Ecosystem.pm -- name still up for discussion.
09:33 masak likely a separate class Project will fall out of that, too.
09:33 mberends yes, you mentioned that yesterday, probably one part to do Ecosystem and another part for Install.
09:34 masak yes.
09:34 masak Install makes use of (and haz) Ecosystem.
09:34 mberends that Ecosystem part might overlap ~/.perl6.conf or /etc/perl6.conf
09:35 masak sure, but this is proto. :)
09:37 mberends proto per se AGNI except to beautify a class design. a big monolithic mess is simpler and also does the job.
09:37 mberends lurkers: Ain't Gonna Need It ;)
09:40 mberends back to that 'use' command, versioning and disambiguating authors/authorities should be based on filesystem hierarchy as much as possible, but not obsessively so if sensible configuration data helps.
09:41 mberends s/disambiguating/distinguishing/
09:42 mberends Ecosystem should support that, but the results *may* not depend on proto, ever.
09:44 mberends the .NET Global Assembly Cache is could almost work for P6
09:44 mberends s/is // #gah
09:45 masak mberends: well, I'm going to resist any Functional Additions to proto as long as it seems sensible.
09:45 masak people are welcome to fork off, though. :)
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09:48 mberends would you prefer a clean break / fork between proto and pro-II, or a gradual morph?
09:48 masak mberends: that would depend on the reqs for pro-II, I think.
09:48 * mberends votes for morph
09:48 masak morph is usually easier, yes.
09:49 masak it's the "from fail to work < from work to fail" rule all over again.
09:50 mberends an excellent way of putting it
09:51 masak mberends: well, it was you who said it the first time. :)
09:51 mberends that's what forks usually do too, and Darwinism finishes the job
09:51 masak it resonates well with me though, because it reminds me of Dawkins' "There are a lot more ways of being dead than of being alive."
09:52 masak believe it or not, that amounts to the same thing. :)
09:52 mberends :) life is precious, and rare
09:52 masak that, too.
09:52 masak but the point is, I think, that once you've got something going (life, sockets, proto, etc), it's a good idea to keep builing from that...
09:53 masak ...instead of starting over with something that doesn't work yet.
09:53 mberends to a point. the state of P5 guts are the reason for P6.
09:54 masak oh, to be sure.
09:54 masak but note that we're not throwing out all of P5 either.
09:57 mberends proto's guts are nice IMNSHO, hence morph, into multiple classes if that is justified. After the 'use' case, I think popularity-contest would be the next feature I'd like to add.
09:57 masak "what's popularity-contest, precious?"
09:59 mberends the Debian term for statistics about number of installations, kind of deployment feedback. It's done via email.
10:00 masak ok, I can think rationally about that as long as I don't think of it as an addition to proto. :P
10:00 mberends Another feature idea would be wtop-stubber-kwalitee enhancement
10:01 masak oh, yes.
10:01 masak but I see that as a separate project, if for no other reason than the fact that deps already point from that towards proto.
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10:02 mberends ?? that's a reason _not_ to separate, surely?
10:02 lambdabot Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
10:03 masak lambdabot: ssh.
10:03 masak grownups talking.
10:03 masak mberends: I guess it depends.
10:03 masak mberends: if I do the Ecosystem disfactor, I can have WTOP depend on proto.
10:04 masak the former simply asks the latter for all known projects, whether they're installed, etc.
10:04 masak oh, and their locations on disk.
10:05 mberends the similarities to debian packaging are everywhere
10:06 masak oh, I would love to see an installer that piggy-backed on the APT system.
10:06 masak but I'm not the person to start such a project.
10:07 mberends if support for gzip and ar could be built in (ie no external lib or exe dependency) then I would look no further. I'm still wondering about whether those two could be written in PIR.
10:08 masak I don't see why not.
10:08 masak lurkers: ^^ projects for you!
10:09 mberends it's a task bigger than 1 hackathon.
10:10 masak indeed.
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10:12 mberends you're right, there is no reason why not. how about this approach: they're both written in C, so try the C to Parrot compiler on them? I don't know the status of C on parrot, though.
10:13 masak sounds like a fun experiment.
10:14 mberends the experiment is hackathon sized :)
10:15 mberends afk &
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10:17 masak lunch &
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12:44 ruoso Hello!
12:52 Matt-W hi ruoso
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13:50 * mberends groks gregorian, julian and other date representations
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14:22 masak I wouldn't dare say I *grok* gregorian. I've heard of it, that's all. :)
14:27 mberends excellent Calendar FAQ http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html
14:28 mberends you could call some of it "applied numerology"
14:29 moritz_ there's not even one calendar I grok :)
14:30 masak calendars are serious business.
14:30 arnsholt masak: Gregorian is the calendar we're using today, so I'd say you probably grok it reasonably well =)
14:30 Infinoid calendars have always seemed arbitrary and a bit ... "un-round" to me
14:30 * Infinoid just hates divisors that aren't powers of 2 :)
14:30 masak arnsholt: oh, yeah, right. Gregorian is that calendar. :P
14:31 masak arnsholt: but still, "grok" is a strong word.
14:31 masak "grok reasonably well feels" like a half-oxymoron.
14:31 arnsholt Julian is the predecessor, which is still used by the orthodox church to compute the date for Easter
14:33 masak it's interesting to follow the evolution of the concepts of time and money. as society deepends, these two concepts become more abstract and removed from reality.
14:33 masak time used to be related to the movements of the sun.
14:33 masak money used to be related to the physical posession of real things.
14:33 arnsholt Infinoid: Calendars are as arbitrary as they are because the Earth's orbital period isn't an integer (and even the integer part of it is kinda nasty to work with)
14:34 mberends so when I transcribe one algorithm, today is 2009-05-26 :P hopefully just a topy.
14:34 masak nowadays, time is vibrations of atoms, and money is numbers created by banks.
14:34 arnsholt masak: Just as an aside, calendars don't have to be solar. They can be lunar as well, like the Muslim and Jewish ones
14:35 masak arnsholt: oh, right. and the Chinese one.
14:35 arnsholt Yeah
14:35 masak would be fun to base a calendar on the movements of Venus or something. :)
14:35 moritz_ the curious thing about time is that I haven't seen a good definition of it
14:36 moritz_ it seems it's one the things that are too fundamental to define (what a horror for a mathematician)
14:36 mberends "it's just there to prevent everything happening simultaneously"
14:36 Infinoid arnsholt: Yeah, I'm submitting a ticket for that (Earth's orbital period being non-integer)
14:36 masak I always liked this Jack Handey quote: 'I wish I lived on a planet that had two suns---regular sun and "rogue" sun. That way, when somebody asked me what time it was, I'd say, "Regular time?" And they'd say, "Yeah." And I'd say, "Sorry, all I have is rogue time." It'd be fun to be a stuck-up rogue-time guy.'
14:37 moritz_ and how do you define "simultaneously"? "happining at the same time"?
14:37 mberends together
14:37 moritz_ bah, recursive defintions are even more evil than eval :-)
14:37 masak moritz_: pfesh, semantics. :)
14:37 arnsholt No! Semantics are fun! =D
14:38 arnsholt Says the linguist
14:38 moritz_ mberends: "together" isn't very precise
14:38 mberends mumble
14:44 TimToady I'm not together yet...
14:47 TimToady the reason I'm opposed to .conf files for both p5 and p6 is that it leads to invisible monkey patching, as if people can modify your setting without telling you they're changing the language you start in.
14:47 TimToady I'm fine with redefining the language as long as it's done declaratively.
14:48 TimToady I don't even mind using a configuration file as long as the *use* of it is declared.
14:49 TimToady but every Perl 6 program using CORE for the setting had better start out being the same language at the top of the file, or we're screwed before we start
14:49 mberends TimToady: that's a very useful possibility
14:49 * moritz_ still doesn't see how a module database can work reasonably without config files
14:49 TimToady this is language policy, not database policy :)
14:50 TimToady for a database, the configuration files *are* the declaration
14:50 mberends moritz_: there would be files, including database files. all is fair if you predeclare (the files).
14:51 masak let's take Rakudo as a concrete example. where would it put its module database?
14:51 masak in a subdir of the Rakudo installation, or in a fixed dir on the disk somewhere?
14:52 moritz_ if installed, probably under /usr/lib/perl/6.0/
14:52 masak for the former, the problem is that we have to have something like a RAKUDO_DIR env variable.
14:52 moritz_ or /usr/lib/rakudo/
14:52 mberends that's implementation detail, either is allowed. Look at Samba to compare.
14:52 [particle]- TimToady: that should be codified, so it's clear that modifying the setting *must* be declared and cannot happen automagically to meet the perl 6 spec
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14:52 [particle]- sorry for dangling that modifier, ETOOEARLY still
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14:53 masak mberends: I don't think it's that easy to dismiss as "implementation detail". underdesign might mean that bad compromises have to be struck later.
14:53 masak cf proto. :)
14:53 TimToady well, it's already implied by the notion that once a module is registered as official, it's immutable
14:53 TimToady and you must version or auth it to change it
14:54 [particle]- modules are closed but classes are open?
14:55 [particle]- ^^ re: immutable
14:55 moritz_ so basically we need a mapping from long name (including unicode short name, version and author) to file name
14:55 TimToady no, what you get out of the library API is immutable; you can modify them after that with monkey patching
14:55 moritz_ and a mechanism to avoid that for local testing
14:55 TimToady but everyone who pulls Foo out of the official library should be getting the same Foo
14:56 [particle]- ok. got it. and agreed, that is implied and makes sense.
14:56 TimToady (implying ver and auth in Foo)
14:56 masak moritz_: yes, the mapping thing worries me somewhat.
14:56 masak moritz_: it's nontrivial.
14:56 [particle]- we need CPANfs
14:56 mberends masak: details was not meant to be dismissive, sorry. But implementations will vary in what they need...
14:57 TimToady or to put it another way, language mutation must be fully named, either with module:ver:auth or by a pedigree of lexically scoped declarations
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14:58 TimToady what would happen to the Web if we had multiple roots to http:// that went different places?
14:58 [particle]- ask china
14:58 TimToady that's what mutatable configuration files would do to the languge
14:58 TimToady and it's to be construed as deeply suboptimal
14:59 TimToady the U is supposed to mean "universal"
14:59 masak mberends: yes, naturally. I'm just implying that the details around modules aren't yet implemented enough to have been proven practical. there may well be one or two impossibilities in there that we don't notice yet. things like "we cannot have any config files or env vars, and the location of the Rakudo install is variable. d'oh!"
14:59 [particle]- indeed.  this way lies madness.
14:59 TimToady but essentially locales are the same kind of madness
15:00 masak TimToady: the "U" used to mean "Universal". nowadays it mean "Uniform". :/
15:00 TimToady you're choosing to be in an ambiguous language based on someone else's external definition
15:00 [particle]- but locales are declared
15:00 TimToady it's fine to use locales as long as you declare that you want to be in such an ambiguous situation
15:01 mberends the predeclare config route look fruitful - some kind of 'use thisconfig' above the remaining 'use' lines.
15:01 TimToady but we try not to make Perl 6 ambiguous that way except by express declaration
15:01 TimToady so if you want to use locales in Perl 6, you must declare that.
15:01 * moritz_ likes that
15:01 TimToady otherwise you get flat Unicode semantics
15:02 TimToady which tries to do the right thing for everyone to the extent possible without local assumptions
15:02 mib_2gjite joined #perl6
15:02 TimToady anyway, yes, I still feel strongly about that.  :)
15:03 mib_2gjite i need help
15:03 masak mib_2gjite: with Perl 6?
15:03 mib_2gjite whoz op ?
15:03 masak mib_2gjite: do you have a Perl 6 question?
15:03 was kicked by TimToady: TimToady
15:04 masak I think "whoz op?" will be my new greeting in #perl6. :)
15:04 TimToady I think anything from mibbit is likely in need of kicking and/or banning these days
15:04 TimToady I cleaned out some ban slots last night just for that purpose :)
15:04 masak aww, not so sure. some of my best friends use mibbit.
15:04 mberends :)
15:05 TimToady yes, but I recognize the style here from the past several days
15:05 TimToady haven't decided whether it's an irritating bot or non-bot
15:06 moritz_ we don't have to decide
15:06 masak not sure the difference is essential. :)
15:06 moritz_ the "irritating" part is important, not the botness
15:07 TimToady anyway, anyone coming in from mibbit and being semi-incoherent should be assumed to be the same person, for now
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15:07 TimToady you see
15:07 * mberends ducks
15:07 masak what could a Perl 6 bot do in here to come across as pleasant, besides doing eval tasks, conversions, messages or karma?
15:08 moritz_ masak: being silent
15:08 masak moritz_: that's an important criterion, yes. :)
15:08 masak moritz_: but in terms of impressiveness...
15:08 moritz_ maybe hand out ops
15:08 masak good one.
15:08 moritz_ have some lookup for project homepages
15:08 moritz_ (but not as annoying as purl, please)
15:09 masak maybe hand out a prize every evening, based on some unknown rule.
15:09 masak moritz_: not being as annoying as purl is the easy part.
15:09 moritz_ "the most active lurker"
15:09 masak :D
15:10 masak "most polite committer"
15:10 mhsparks joined #perl6
15:10 masak "happiest-sounding debater"
15:10 M_o_C joined #perl6
15:10 masak "most talked-to person"
15:10 moritz_ lowest smiley-to-quotes ratio
15:11 [particle]- cutest network packet
15:11 masak awwww. <3
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15:25 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:26 sbp hey pmichaud
15:27 masak whoz op, pmichaud.
15:27 sbp (translation: masak is a secret mibbit user)
15:28 pmichaud /kick masak
15:28 masak :P
15:28 pmichaud I already read the backlog :-P
15:28 masak I just wanted to know how  do u make your own chanle...
15:30 sbp masak: obviously a perl6 bot should implement a game of perl6 syntax nomic
15:30 pmichaud In your case, you start by writing your own IRC server in Perl 6.
15:30 sbp where people compete to convolute perl6 into the most egregious areas of syntaxitude
15:30 TimToady it isn't already?
15:30 sbp heh, heh
15:31 masak sbp: problem with programming-lang nomics is that they're so different from the original version...
15:32 sbp just thought that as well as being a ripe source of entertainment, it might also have the unwanted side-effect of producing ideas that may actually be useful; sort of how Damien's Quantum Superpositions joke, which everybody thought hilarious, became junctions, which everybody thinks even more hilarious
15:33 sbp *Damian
15:33 sbp might not work on IRC so well given the limited space
15:34 jan_ joined #perl6
15:34 TimToady but I can see a line of daily recursive Setting files being installed in *PAN to define the new language of the day based on earlier ones :)
15:35 masak rakudo: multi sub infix:<!+> { $^a + $^b }
15:35 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 1, near "infix:<!+>"␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:86)␤»
15:35 pmichaud masak:  not yet... working on that now :-)
15:35 TimToady take a while to compile after it's nested several thousand settings deep though...
15:35 masak pmichaud: cool.
15:36 TimToady I guess the new game would be called cpanic, or some such...
15:36 sbp someone could make a GA for syntax evolution whose fitness function is based on how much people chuckle at the results. though I have a feeling that it'd just turn out like $insert-your-most-hated-programming-language-here
15:37 register72 joined #perl6
15:39 jnthn hi register72, welcome to #perl6 :-)
15:39 register72 hi everybody
15:39 register72 how may I help?
15:39 sbp give us the spec for perl7
15:39 masak register72: a very good question, sir!
15:39 mberends finish perl6?
15:40 jnthn register72 has just been asking me in private message about getting involved in Perl 6, so I suggested he joined here to get more ideas. :-)
15:40 masak register72: you can help with the test suite.
15:40 masak register72: or with one of the implementations. or with documentation.
15:40 jnthn mberends: :-P
15:40 masak register72: or you can write programs in Perl 6, dragging out bugs.
15:40 * sbp still isn't used to people coming to tech channels askign *to* help rather than *for* help...
15:41 masak jnthn: "suggested he join". an excellent time to use the subjunctive. :P
15:41 register72 I know that there is some development about a perl6 web framework going on right?
15:41 * masak admires his own grammar nazi hat
15:42 masak register72: yes.
15:42 jnthn masak: My English not the good, sorry.
15:42 jnthn masak: btw how is chanel formed?
15:42 masak jnthn: *lol*
15:42 masak jnthn: "chanle" :)
15:43 jnthn register72: See http://github.com/masak/web/ for more on the web stuff
15:43 mberends jnthn: as in Mandlebrot ;)
15:43 jnthn register72: Or ask masak ;-)
15:44 * masak looks skywards and whistles
15:44 Kisu joined #perl6
15:44 * sbp squinteth at http://feather.perl6.nl/~masak/november-smoke.html
15:44 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:44 masak no, actually, questions are fine.
15:44 sbp masak: how come it's showing 100% for all these?
15:44 sbp and then some are marked as not ok and browned out
15:44 masak sbp: those are called TODO tests.
15:45 sbp more like RFEs than Bugs?
15:45 masak aye.
15:45 sbp okay, thanks
15:45 masak np.
15:45 masak patches welcome. :)
15:45 masak also, that smoke is against Oslo, not Bratislava or bleeding.
15:46 masak (because Oslo is all that builds on feather presently)
15:47 sbp =item A URI module based on RFC 3986, using Perl 6 grammars.
15:47 sbp http://github.com/masak/web/blob/d42596a457ebe15​115a7ea07ae96bdc9034231a7/doc/GRANT-PROPOSAL.pod
15:47 sbp masak: and IRIs?
15:47 register72 masak is your framework a template like system for html rendering?
15:47 register72 anyway
15:47 register72 to come back to the point
15:47 register72 I would like to contribute some C code
15:47 register72 but could be also interested in writing some general framework in perl6
15:47 register72 so I am open to suggestions
15:47 sbp register72: do you know CGI.pm from ye olde perl5 days?
15:48 sbp it's kinda meant to be a replacement of that
15:48 register72 yes
15:48 register72 ah ok
15:48 sbp so yeah, some templating
15:48 sbp cf. this:
15:48 sbp =item A slightly more advanced XML-aware templating system, similar to
15:48 sbp Python's Genshi.
15:48 masak register72: it's not a template-like system, but it has one or two of those. (or "endorses" them, or whatever the relation turns out to be)
15:48 register72 ok
15:48 jnthn register72: There's (intentionally) not that much C in Rakudo. On the other hand, if you want to help rakudo along, I'm sure there's some Parrot issues that you could work on that would directly help Rakudo.
15:48 jnthn And that'd involve C.
15:49 register72 ok
15:49 jnthn Rakudo is mostly written in Perl 6 or subsets of Perl 6, plus PIR.
15:49 jnthn With just a small sprinkling of C.
15:49 masak sbp: sorry, IRIs?
15:49 register72 jnthn could you provide me some pointers?
15:49 TimToady C already has pointers
15:49 jnthn register72: int *foo;
15:50 jnthn char *bar;
15:50 jnthn ;-)
15:50 register72 emh
15:50 register72 better initialize them
15:50 register72 ;)
15:50 register72 char* bar=NULL;
15:50 sbp masak: RFC 3987. basically URIs that allow unicode in them
15:50 jnthn pmichaud: Do we have anywhere a list of Parrot issues that'd really help Rakudo along?
15:50 sbp for example, an actualy U+0020 space is allowed in an IRI
15:51 register72 int* foo=&perl6_parrot_pointers;
15:51 pmichaud jnthn: we have trac tickets, but I don't know that they're organized by "helps rakudo"
15:51 sbp whereas it's not allowed in a URI; you have to encode it as %20 (or some servers interpret + as a space in certain contexts; well, just query strings)
15:51 mberends wouldn't Q:C{ printf "hello, world"; } be cool?
15:51 pmichaud I might be able to tag them.
15:51 masak sbp: a guy wrote to ihrd and me the other day, saying he'd implemented URI.pm using RFC 2396 as a basis.
15:51 sbp masak: browsers are sorta flipping back and forward between IRIs and URIs these days
15:52 sbp heh, poor guy
15:52 masak sbp: ok. I don't know much about URIs; so far that has been ihrd++'s department.
15:52 masak an unresolved question for me is how much URI handling should be built into Web.pm.
15:53 sbp m'kay. I can't even find URI.pm in Web.pm
15:53 jnthn register72: If you wanted to take on something bigger that would help Rakudo but also Parrot in general, we're very much in need of a PIR-level profiler.
15:53 register72 ok
15:53 masak sbp: no, there's no such class yet.
15:54 jnthn register72: We currently don't have a good way of knowing about performance bottlenecks 'cus we just don't have the tools to tell us.
15:54 sbp ah. I thought you wrote somewhere you were just incorporating November's URI.pm?
15:54 masak sbp: there's a project called uri, though.
15:54 jnthn Or not really easily anyway.
15:54 sbp hmm, okay
15:54 masak sbp: aye, that project is just November's URI.pm pulled out.
15:54 sbp ah!
15:54 masak (AFAIU)
15:55 register72 that's pretty tough
15:55 sbp masak: Got Link™? having trouble finding it on the intergoogles
15:55 masak sbp: hold on.
15:56 register72 I am not so confident that I can make it since I know pretty well how to code in C but I don't know almost nothing about parrot internals
15:56 PhatEddy joined #perl6
15:56 register72 but I can try to have a look
15:56 register72 ok
15:56 moritz_ register72: then maybe start with smaller features, or bug fixes
15:56 moritz_ register72: also join #parrot on irc.perl.org
15:56 masak sbp: http://github.com/ihrd/uri http://github.com/ronaldxs/uri
15:57 masak second one's the one I heard about yesterday.
15:57 sbp cool, thanks
15:57 register72 jnthn are you into parrot?
15:57 jnthn register72: A ticket that directly affect Rakudo: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/536
15:57 jnthn register72: yeah, as "jonathan" there
16:00 PhatEddy Yesterday jnthn was having trouble with "make t/spec/sometest" under windows - if it involved mingw32-make I may have a fix
16:01 PhatEddy If one replaces "t\\*.t t\\*\\*.t t\\*\\*\\*.t: all Test.pir" with "$(shell $(PERL) -e "print join(' ', (<t\\*.t>, <t\\*\\*.t>, <t\\*\\*\\*.t>))"): all Test.pir" (more)
16:01 PhatEddy it seems a bit ugly to me but it seems to work
16:01 jnthn register72: Also this one is a real pain for Rakudo - we could pass more tests with this fixed: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/24
16:02 PhatEddy any interest in a patch like this?
16:02 register72 jnthn: saw the ticket and I see also that parrot has a "trace" core. "Tracing" has some  connection with profiling so I guess that know I have some material
16:02 jnthn register72: Yes, that'd be a place to start looking.
16:03 register72 thanks guys
16:03 sbp hmm. URI ~ URI could join the two URIs according to normal resolution, and URI ~ Str could just bung the string onto the end of the URI, utf-8 and %HH encoded...
16:03 jnthn register72: A profiling runcore sounds like an interesting idea.
16:03 masak sbp: in other words, you want operator overloading too :)
16:04 [particle]- PhatEddy: did you try that with msvc? i don't think $(shell ...) will do anything useful in cmd/nmake
16:04 sbp YES!!@
16:04 sbp heh
16:04 masak sbp: coming soon, accoring to pmichaud.
16:04 jnthn register72: chromatic who is on #parrot now and then was talking about refactoring runcores a bit to make things more pluggable as something to help with implementing another runcore for profiling too.
16:04 masak sbp: by the way, what do you mean by "join the two URIs according to normal resolution"?
16:04 register72 ok
16:04 jnthn Anyway, if you want to look into any of the issues I've mentioned, that'd be awesome. :-)
16:05 sbp masak: so joining http://example.org/test/ and ../filename gives http://example.org/filename
16:05 sbp and *not* http://example.org/test/../filename
16:05 sbp standard uri join
16:05 masak sbp: that's quite a nice idea.
16:06 mizioumt joined #perl6
16:06 PhatEddy [particle]-: sorry I don't work with msvc.  I just got it to work with mingw32-make ... but the make program should be identifiable in the configuration/Configure.pl ...
16:06 * jnthn away for a bit
16:06 masak sbp: I was going to object that that isn't close enough to real concatenation, but I think I like it, so... :)
16:06 [particle]- PhatEddy: ok, well i'm a bit distracted (on phone) so i may be missing something and you may be spot on
16:07 sbp masak: it can chain like concatenation too because a ~ b ~ c just means join(join(a, b), c)
16:08 masak sbp: aye, that's quite nice.
16:08 sbp the head of the chain would have to be absolute though, I think (a URI with a ':' in it)
16:08 sbp can't remember the rules precisely
16:08 masak sbp: I was going to say something like that.
16:09 PerlJam sbp: is using .. in that manner part of the URI/URL spec?
16:10 PhatEddy [particle]-: bbiab - and hopefully you'll be less distracted.  I do have nmake and will try to experiment with that as well ..
16:10 sbp PerlJam: yeah
16:10 sbp § 5 in RFC RFC 3986
16:10 ejs joined #perl6
16:10 PerlJam sbp: thanks
16:11 sbp (spot the point where I had to look up the number and forgot what I'd typed already)
16:11 moritz_ maybe my IRC logs should recognize RFC 3986 and turn it into a link...
16:13 sbp masak: actually, despite what you've put in GRANT-PROPOSAL.pod, I guess it does make sense for URI.pm to be separate, because an HTTP client library is bound to want to use it, but isn't going to want to use anything else in Web.pm really
16:13 sbp it's one of the few shared aspects between the client and server architectures I suppose
16:14 moritz_ ah, be careful here... a HTTP server that automatically transforms /foo/../ into / could be very dangerous ;-)
16:14 moritz_ that aside, I agree
16:17 masak sbp: indeed.
16:17 masak sbp: and Web.pm is HTTP-engine-agnostic.
16:23 sbp what's the perl6 state of the art for HTTP client side operations?
16:23 moritz_ nothingmuch, I fear
16:24 moritz_ there was a basic LWP::Simple implementation at a hackathon (or so I've been told), but the code was never published
16:24 moritz_ rakudo: say "\r".ord
16:24 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«13␤»
16:24 sbp thanks
16:26 kane__ joined #perl6
16:31 nbrown_ joined #perl6
16:34 masak interesting PerlMonks thread from the past about the Perl 6 future: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=404127
16:35 ruoso pmichaud, were you able to take a look at the problem I mentioned yesterday?
16:35 Tene sbp: I can give you something tonight if you want.
16:35 masak Tene++
16:36 PerlJam masak: unfortunately perl 6 won't be out in 2012  ;)
16:36 moritz_ not "out", but "in" (use)
16:36 Tene masak: web.pm *should* be http engine agnostic, but now isn't
16:37 masak Tene: well, it's more like we're using it wrong right now.
16:37 masak HTTP::Daemon shouldn't really be a part of Web.pm
16:37 masak just the middleware to accommodate it.
16:38 Tene exactly
16:38 eMaX joined #perl6
16:38 masak PerlJam: you're probably right, but I've realized I don't care about the "out" property of Perl 6, so...
16:38 PerlJam yeah, as long as it's useful (and it is now)
16:39 masak Tene: I promise to remedy that before the situation grows too silly.
16:39 PerlJam (rakudo is anyway :-)
16:39 masak and Pugs too, to some degree.
16:39 sbp Tene: oh, cool
16:39 ruoso rakudo: class Foo { method bar($a) { say $a }; method foo { $.bar('ok') } }; Foo.new.foo;
16:39 sbp Tene: I was kinda thinking about various things connected with it
16:39 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 2 params expected␤current instr.: 'parrot;Foo;bar' pc 136 (EVAL_21:74)␤»
16:39 PerlJam pugs is too frozen in time to be useful enough
16:39 ruoso is that a known bug?
16:39 sbp Tene: a) using such a thing, b) checking such a thing does encoding right, c) checking that the general architecture is sound
16:40 sbp especially encoding, because it's always tricky
16:40 moritz_ ruoso: the $.method abbreviatioin doesn't always work in rakudo
16:40 masak ruoso: wtf?
16:40 * masak submits rakudobug
16:40 moritz_ ruoso: but self.method should work
16:40 ruoso it does...
16:40 ruoso I was just wondering if that was already a known issue
16:41 moritz_ known to me and pmichaud, at least ;-)
16:41 [1]nbrown joined #perl6
16:41 pmichaud it's a known issue.
16:41 moritz_ dunno if known to RT
16:41 pmichaud there's even a ticket for it.
16:41 moritz_ ok
16:41 * masak suspects it's in RT...
16:41 ruoso hi pmichaud
16:42 pmichaud RT #61988
16:43 * masak hits the undo button
16:43 Tene sbp: Yes, I am encoding-stupid... would love help getting it right in http stuff I'm working on.
16:44 * masak is encoding-stupid too, but on the learning curve
16:44 cognominal joined #perl6
16:44 * moritz_ is pretty encoding-aware
16:44 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { return { "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a();
16:44 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤OH HAI␤»
16:45 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { { "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a();
16:45 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤1␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 122 (EVAL_20:61)␤»
16:45 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { { $^f; "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a();
16:45 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: '_block27' pc 291 (EVAL_20:122)␤»
16:45 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { { $^f; "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a(1);
16:45 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: '_block27' pc 298 (EVAL_20:124)␤»
16:45 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { return { $^f; "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a(1);
16:45 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤OH HAI␤»
16:45 pmichaud skids:  note that your nested block is an immediate block
16:46 moritz_ rakudo++ # getting all of tese right so far
16:46 skids If it is an immediate block, then is the code in S04 lift wrong?
16:46 pmichaud checking
16:46 pmichaud no, those are pointy subs
16:47 pmichaud (or pointy blocks)
16:47 pmichaud so they aren't immediate
16:47 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { -> $f { $^f; "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a(1);
16:47 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a; my sub b { -> { "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a();
16:47 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«Cannot use placeholder var in block with signature. at line 1, near "; \"OH HAI\""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:86)␤»
16:47 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤OH HAI␤»
16:47 pmichaud rakudo++
16:48 skids rakudo: my $a; my sub b { -> $f { $f; "OH HAI".say } }; $a = b(); $a.perl.say; $a(1);
16:48 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤OH HAI␤»
16:48 skids OK, good then.
16:48 skids Though that's probably going to end up being a FAQ.
16:50 ruoso skids, what was the behavior you expected?
16:50 cdarroch joined #perl6
16:50 moritz_ there can be no language with a FAQ
16:50 moritz_ if there were one, people would ask "why isn't there a FAQ?", which would be a FAQ
16:50 moritz_ (proof by contradiction)++
16:51 skids My mind was open :-)  I just hadn't remembered reading anything about pointies not being immediate.
16:51 pmichaud iirc, only bare blocks can be immediate
16:51 Tene moritz_: but would they ask it *frequentlyz?
16:51 skids Even if there's a topic?
16:52 ruoso yes... bare blocks have a .() implied
16:52 moritz_ Tene: sufficiently frequently to qualify as FAQ (compared to all other questions, at least ;-)
16:52 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { { say 'hello' } }; foo();
16:52 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:53 moritz_ without it much of the test suite wouldn't work
16:53 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { { say 'hello' }.() }; foo(); # this would be the implied call\
16:53 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:53 skids It's probably the most FAQ-free behavior, mind you (makes sense)
16:54 ruoso skids, it only looks weird while it is in a single line
16:54 ruoso if you put it into a long file
16:54 ruoso the other way around would be a FAQ
16:54 skids Though maybe the placeholder case might be a bit iffy.
16:55 ruoso on the other hand....
16:55 skids (non pointy with placeholders)
16:55 ruoso I'm not sure a block that is being returned is really "bare"
16:55 skids note the return case worked as a closure, just the fall-off-end didn't.
16:55 ruoso rakudo: sub foo { { say 'hello' } }; my $a = foo;  say 1; $a.(); say 2;
16:56 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«hello␤1␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 103 (EVAL_22:57)␤»
16:56 ruoso it's important to realize that "for" has this same semantics applied
16:56 ruoso a 'bare for' is executed immediatly
16:56 ruoso but a 'for' being used as the return of a sub, even if implicit, is lazy...
16:56 REPLeffect joined #perl6
16:57 * [particle]- has spectest failures with msvc
16:57 skids And to make things more confusing, there's the caveat about for returning a value :-)
16:57 skids (which newbies won't expect)
16:57 TimToady sub postfix:< km>($n) { }; 4 km;
16:58 TimToady std: sub postfix:< km>($n) { }; 4 km;
16:58 ruoso TimToady, is a block that is being implicitly returned in a sub considered a 'bare block'?
16:58 p6eval std 26817: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/iQg9PIMmJw line 1:␤------> [32msub postfix:< km>($n) { }; 4 [31mkm;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤FAILED 00:04
16:58 p6eval ..44m␤»
16:58 skids sub foo { { say $^d ~ 'hello' } }; my $a = foo;  say 1; $a.(1); say 2;
16:58 TimToady std: sub postfix:[' km']($n) { }; 4 km;
16:58 p6eval std 26817: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 44m␤»
16:58 TimToady that's better
16:58 skids rakudo: sub foo { { say $^d ~ 'hello' } }; my $a = foo;  say 1; $a.(1); say 2;
16:58 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 params expected␤current instr.: '_block26' pc 296 (EVAL_22:123)␤»
16:58 skids ...that's the only case that's iffy in my mind but could go either way.
16:59 TimToady ruoso: you can't implicitly return a block
16:59 ruoso you can implicitly return a closure
16:59 [particle]- what happens to placeholders in a bare block? warning?
16:59 [particle]- use values from outer scope?
16:59 TimToady a bare block as the last statement will not be taken as a return value
17:00 riffraff joined #perl6
17:00 ruoso TimToady, isn't it a bit inconsistent with the way 'for' is handled?
17:01 TimToady S04: 560
17:02 TimToady people's expectations of bare blocks are inconsistent
17:02 * sbp gets confused by "Yes, Byte is both a string and a number." in S29:95; Byte derives from AnyChar, which derives from Str... so it's also deriving from Num?
17:02 moritz_ "a".sqrt
17:03 sbp rakudo: "a".sqrt
17:03 p6eval rakudo 106452:  ( no output )
17:03 sbp rakudo: say "a".sqrt
17:03 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«0␤»
17:03 Infinoid rakudo: say "a"+1
17:03 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«1␤»
17:03 sbp rakudo: say "a".ord.sqrt
17:03 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«9.8488578017961␤»
17:04 skids sbp: "a" isn't a byte, though.
17:04 sbp nope. and "a".ord is just a Num, not a Str
17:04 ruoso rakudo: say 'a' ~~ AnyChar
17:04 p6eval rakudo 106452: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub AnyChar␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 59 (EVAL_17:47)␤»
17:05 ruoso sbp, rakudo doesn't seem to implement that part of the spec yet
17:05 ruoso pugs: say 'a' ~~ AnyChar
17:05 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&AnyChar"␤    at /tmp/3XjdvyREaC line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
17:05 ruoso nor does pug
17:05 cognominal joined #perl6
17:09 * sbp finds the C<open> implementation in rakudo/src/builtins/io.pir
17:09 sbp couldn't find anything about encoding of files in the Synopses
17:09 sbp and the only thing I found about encoding in general was in http://rakudo.org/2009/01/perl-​6-design-minutes-for-31-d.html which seems to indicate that encoding and decoding within I/O operations hasn't really been thought about yet?
17:11 skids so basically rakudo has everything right functionally but the placeholder bare block should be a syntax error not a dispatch error, and could be more specific.
17:11 jnthn [particle]-: (fails in msvc) I get a handful too.
17:11 jnthn 4ish.
17:11 [particle]- 2 in S02-magicals/env.t
17:11 jnthn (2 about numeric stuff, one weird, one slice.t segv that is know)
17:11 [particle]- and the slice.t segv.
17:11 jnthn [particle]-: Oh, I thought I pushed a patch yesterday to fix env.t
17:12 jnthn Yeah, slice.t segv I investigated a bit and wrote a ticket about.
17:12 [particle]- i recall that segv. env.t surprised me a bit
17:12 jnthn It's almost certainly GC related.
17:12 jnthn (the segv, not env.t)
17:12 TimToady ruoso: and I wouldn't describe for as caring about its context in that sense.  It's only that void context happens to be considered eager.
17:12 [particle]- yep
17:14 pmichaud skids:  (placeholder bare block as syntax error)  -- I'm not sure it's a syntax error.  It _might_ be a semantic error, or it could be that placeholder blocks should not be treated as immediate blocks.
17:14 TimToady though perhaps void must be considered strictly eager, or "for 1..*" won't work
17:15 dalek rakudo: cf98479 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
17:15 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 388 files, 11257 passing, 0 failing
17:15 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​f98479eeebb2176267698eb1589e511abcc92e0
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17:16 TimToady I suspect a placeholder block should be supported as "non-bare" but disrecommended as devious
17:17 pmichaud how much disrecommended?  Generate a warning?  ;-)
17:17 pmichaud "Devious use of placeholder block at ..."
17:17 TimToady I'm thinking of posting the culprit's name in the town square, more like...
17:17 sbp hmm. p6eval gives me 13025 (i.e. 0x32E1) for "\c[CIRCLED KATAKANA TU]".ord, which is right, but when I read a file from disc with an actual "\c[CIRCLED KATAKANA TU]\n" line in it and then ord what it read, it gives me 227, which is the first byte of CIRCLED KATAKANA TU utf-8 encoded...
17:18 sbp so it seems it's just reading bytes and converting them to codepoints...
17:19 sbp and it also seems to do the same the other way round, so "say" just bungs out the unicode characters as bytes (which means you can see the character fine if your locale settings are set to UTF-8)
17:20 moritz_ so there's a decoding step missing on reading.
17:20 pmichaud sbp: You're correct that rakudo doesn't impose any encoding semantics on things read from files yet.
17:20 TimToady I absolve in advance anyone who breaks rakudo to fix this :)
17:20 TimToady or parrot :)
17:21 pmichaud TimToady: The "fix" is that files should assume utf8 ?
17:21 TimToady files are assumed to be "text", and that means Unicode
17:21 * pmichaud works for absolution.
17:21 pmichaud No problem.
17:21 pmichaud That's easily fixed.  :-)
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17:23 sbp rakudo: say "\c[CIRCLED KATAKANA TU]\n".chars();
17:23 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«2␤»
17:23 TimToady files that aren't text should generally have their own open-like methods anyway
17:23 sbp rakudo: say "\c[CIRCLED KATAKANA TU]\n".bytes();
17:23 pmichaud Seems reasonable.
17:23 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«Method 'bytes' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;dispatch' pc 252042 (src/gen_actions.pir:0)␤»
17:24 sbp sorry if I'm being thick, but what does it mean for a file to be text/Unicode?
17:24 sbp all files are sequences of bytes, which means that there must be a decoding stage to interpret them correctly as Unicode, i.e. as sequences of Unicode characters
17:24 TimToady one of UTF-8, UTF-16LE, UTF-16BE, UTF-32LE, or UTF-32BE
17:24 sbp aha, thanks
17:25 sbp hmm, I like the idea of referring to files encoded in any of those encodings as text files
17:25 pmichaud for the time being, Rakudo will assume utf8.  I'm not sure Parrot supports any of those other encodings yet.
17:26 TimToady with a bias towards UTF-8, but if there are nulls, intuiting one of the others is okay, I think
17:26 TimToady since I hate BOMs with a passion
17:26 TimToady (but recognize BOMs too, of course)
17:26 ruoso rakudo: my @a = (/ a /, / b /, / c /); my @b = map -> &rx { token { <rx> u } }, @a; my &subrx = sub ($/) { for @b -> &eachrx { my $match = Match.new($/); my $result = eachrx($match); if $result {return $result;}; }; return Match.new($/);  }; say 'au' ~~ token { <subrx> }; say 'bu' ~~ token { <subrx> }; say 'cu' ~~ token { <subrx> }
17:26 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«␤␤cu␤»
17:27 ruoso pmichaud, that's the problem I'm facing... maybe it can be narrowed down a bit more...
17:27 sbp moritz_: Str.bytes is mentioned in your Perl6-Str-0.0.3/lib/Perl6/Str.pm but doesn't seem to be implemented in rakudo yet (see test above). what's the status with that?
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17:32 pmichaud rakudo:  rx()
17:32 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub rx␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 53 (EVAL_17:43)␤»
17:33 ruoso pmichaud, note the signature
17:33 pmichaud rakudo: my @a = /a/, /b/, /c/; my @b = map -> &rx { token { <rx> u } }, @a;   for @b { .WHICH.say }
17:33 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«146001524␤146001524␤146001524␤»
17:34 ruoso hah
17:34 ruoso there it is
17:34 pmichaud well, maybe.
17:34 pmichaud there are some odd things that happen with subs in rakudo.
17:34 pmichaud that might cause them to report odd .WHICH values
17:35 ruoso the actual problem is consistent with the WHICH behavior
17:35 pmichaud agreed.
17:35 pmichaud I wonder if the token isn't being cloned properly.
17:36 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { sub { $rx.say } }, @a;   for @b { $_(); }
17:36 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«3␤3␤3␤»
17:36 ruoso hmm... now that was unexpected
17:38 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { $rx }, @a;   for @b { $_.say; }
17:38 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
17:38 TimToady I suspect we could also recognize SCSU and BOKU compressions of unicode when indicated by BOM
17:38 ruoso pmichaud, ok... now *that*'s just weird
17:39 pmichaud why is that?
17:39 ruoso ah
17:39 ruoso sorry...
17:39 ruoso I thought there was a closure there also
17:39 pmichaud the problem comes down to something similar with the given/take one we've described earlier
17:39 ruoso rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { my $a = $rx; sub { $a.say } }, @a;   for @b { $_();
17:40 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 1, near ""␤␤current instr.: 'parrot;PGE;Util;die' pc 129 (runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Util.pir:86)␤»
17:40 pmichaud sorry, gather/take
17:40 ruoso rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { my $a = $rx; sub { $a.say } }, @a;   for @b { $_(); }
17:40 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«3␤3␤3␤»
17:40 pmichaud as far as map is concerned, the sub { ... } that is returned is the same sub each time
17:40 pmichaud there's nothing there to indicate that it should be cloned
17:40 ruoso rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { my $a = $rx; my $b = sub { $a.say }; say $b.WHICH; $b }, @a;   for @b { $_(); }
17:40 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«146329000␤146329000␤146329000␤1␤2␤3␤»
17:41 pmichaud yes, we can force a cloning
17:41 ruoso uh?
17:41 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { my $b = sub { $rx.say }; $b }, @a;   for @b { $_(); }
17:42 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
17:42 pmichaud compare with
17:42 pmichaud rakudo:  my @a = 1, 2, 3;   my @b = map -> $rx { sub { $rx.say }; }, @a;   for @b { $_(); }
17:42 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«3␤3␤3␤»
17:42 pmichaud so, going back to the original
17:42 ruoso pmichaud, the fact it is a closure means it needs to be cloned
17:43 pmichaud ruoso: in the general case, if I do      return $x      does $x get cloned?
17:43 pmichaud currently no -- it gets placed into a capture
17:44 pmichaud and then it's "cloned" upon assignment to something else
17:44 ruoso but the closures are different in each iteration
17:44 ruoso by definition
17:44 ruoso they have a different lexical scope as their outer scope
17:44 ruoso rakudo: my @a = (/ a /, / b /, / c /); my @b = map -> &rx { my $t = token { <rx> u }; $t }, @a; my &subrx = sub ($/) { for @b -> &eachrx { my $match = Match.new($/); my $result = eachrx($match); if $result {return $result;}; }; return Match.new($/);  }; say 'au' ~~ token { <subrx> }; say 'bu' ~~ token { <subrx> }; say 'cu' ~~ token { <subrx> }
17:44 p6eval rakudo cf9847: OUTPUT«au␤bu␤cu␤»
17:45 ruoso cool
17:45 ruoso workaround++
17:45 pmichaud ruoso: so, you're saying that    return { ... }    should always force a clone, while   return $some_other_value;   shouldn't.
17:46 ruoso no... when you declare a closure, it is specific to that moment
17:46 ruoso it should be cloned *before* being used in that block
17:46 TimToady in theory {...} is always cloned, but sometimes you can optimize it away
17:46 pmichaud Yes, I'm thinking we just mis-optimize it at the moment.
17:53 pmichaud okay, I think I've found the closure bug.  I suspect I'll try to fix it and the outer lexicals issue in PGE
17:53 pmichaud (the one that currently requires use to use 'token' instead of 'regex')
17:54 pmichaud s/use/us/
17:54 pmichaud spectesting the utf8 IO stuff
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17:58 ruoso YAY! Faz' Yarn version works!
17:59 pmichaud lunchtime.
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19:01 dalek rakudo: 3f8ff62 | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/io.pir:
19:01 dalek rakudo: Default file I/O to utf8 encoding.
19:01 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​f8ff6258e1e6a9a8d3b6c66a7a4d667c85e6bea
19:01 dalek rakudo: 7b56f00 | pmichaud++ | :
19:01 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
19:01 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​b56f00fbbd3ac7cab98c20429051e7cfd2785ca
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19:37 pmurias ruoso: hi
19:38 pugs_svn r26818 | pmurias++ | [re-mildew] pushed method signatures in the right direction -
19:38 pugs_svn r26818 | pmurias++ | t/capture_expansion.t passes
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19:40 pugs_svn r26819 | pmurias++ | [re-mildew] fixed test
19:44 moritz_ rakudo: module Foo { say (1,2,3).map: { $_ } }
19:44 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching  but got something of type Code() for expr in call to map␤current instr.: 'die' pc 17050 (src/builtins/control.pir:225)␤»
19:52 jnthn rakudo: say (1,2,3).map: { $_ }
19:52 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«123␤»
19:53 jnthn rakudo: module Foo { say (1,2,3).WHAT }
19:53 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«List()␤»
19:54 jnthn rakudo: module Foo { say { $_ }.WHAT }
19:54 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
19:54 jnthn rakudo: say { $_ }.WHAT
19:54 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
19:54 jnthn ah ffs
19:54 jnthn that's why
19:57 pugs_svn r26820 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for map inside modules
19:59 moritz_ rakudo: say Block ~~ Code
19:59 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«1␤»
19:59 jnthn moritz_: yeah, it's not quite that straightforward. :-)
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21:04 pugs_svn r26821 | moritz++ | [t/spec] RT #62730
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21:26 moritz_ rakudo: my @a := 1; say @a.WHAT
21:26 p6eval rakudo 7b56f0: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
21:39 masak joined #perl6
21:39 masak oh hai, kittehs.
21:40 masak whoz op?
21:41 moritz_ how to mkae now chanle???
21:41 masak :)
21:42 masak I just blogged about w7 of Web.pm: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/38973
21:43 masak (I hope I didn't forget anything, there was so much happening this week)
21:44 PerlJam masak: do you do the preambles by hand or is there some place you get them from?
21:44 masak PerlJam: http://www.lolcatbible.com​/index.php?title=Matthew_5
21:45 masak PerlJam: crazy, huh? :)
21:45 PerlJam indeed.
21:45 * moritz_ wonders if shlomi finds those offensive ;-)
21:45 PerlJam heh
21:46 masak they translations are not always tasteful, but I try to filter out the interesting bits.
21:46 masak s/y//
21:46 iluvs2pac hi how iz compiler formed?
21:46 iluvs2pac how world get prel6?
21:46 masak iluvs2pac: a Perl 6 compiler?
21:47 masak I think we've just sunk to a new low. :)
21:47 jnthn Delighted to be a part of it. :)
21:47 jnthn Will Rakudo Day on Friday.
21:47 moritz_ ;-)
21:47 masak not that I'm complaining. I love the contrast between exquisite parser discussions and lolspeak.
21:47 masak jnthn: \o/
21:48 jnthn Not had Rakudo time today - dealing with $other_stuff.
21:48 jnthn But hopefully get back to working on other stuffs tomorrow.
21:49 masak I haven't backlogged yet -- any news on those operator overlords?
21:49 jnthn pmichaud is our operator overlord ;-)
21:49 moritz_ masak: no
21:49 jnthn masak: not seen any news though
21:49 masak ok.
21:50 * masak sits tight
21:50 * moritz_ wonders about implementing infix:<ff>
21:50 jnthn I suspect other distraction (like, the one involving grammar.pg and Latin-1) haven't helped...
21:50 pmichaud I'm about this  >  <  close to having operator definitions in Perl 6.
21:50 jnthn moritz_: I'd wondered about that too.
21:50 moritz_ things is, that operator needs state internally
21:50 masak aye.
21:50 pmichaud I've already gotten it to parse   &infix:<+> and the like.
21:50 jnthn pmichaud: The angles go the other direction. ;-)
21:50 moritz_ and it needs to have that state separately for each source code locations it appears in
21:51 pmichaud jnthn: when the angles swap sides, then it'll be done :-)
21:51 jnthn pmichaud: Really happy you got it parsing that bit at least. :-)
21:51 moritz_ I don't see a way to declare such a thing in Perl 6
21:51 pmichaud yes.  Right now I'm just figuring out how to add things to the optable.
21:51 jnthn moritz_: Global is a bit ugly too.
21:52 jnthn moritz_: Consider for 1..$big_number { eval('1 ff 2') }
21:52 masak moritz_: it feels like it should have something to do with closures, just like that canonical incrementer example.
21:53 jnthn masak: It can be attached to the current block but we need to be damm sure we clone it along with the current block.
21:53 moritz_ jnthn: global won't work either, unless infix:<ff> know its caller's source location (including column information)
21:53 jnthn moritz_: True. I think it maybe wants to hang off the enclosing block.
21:53 meppl good night
21:53 moritz_ jnthn: I don't understand what that means
21:53 masak jnthn: you just tipped me off to another evil way to break Rakudo when the time comes. :)
21:54 masak meppl: 'night.
21:54 jnthn moritz_: I mean, maybe we should associate the state of the flip-flop with the block.
21:54 jnthn moritz_: Then we only need a block-unique identifier, and those aren't so hard.
21:54 meppl ;)
21:55 moritz_ jnthn: would that work with two ff ops in a block?
21:55 masak gosh, I sure hope so.
21:55 jnthn moritz_: For sure. I'm not being very good at explaining here. :-)
21:56 moritz_ jnthn: is it something that can be (theoretically) written in pure Perl 6?
21:56 jnthn moritz_: I meant that the storage for all of the flip-flops in a block would be associated with that block, and we'd just generate a unique ID for each flip-flop, but it only has to be unique to that block, not globally.
21:57 moritz_ jnthn: ah
21:57 jnthn moritz_: If we implement can do &CALLER::?BLOCK
21:57 jnthn moritz_: Then you can mix in a role with a storage location (e.g. a hash) perhaps.
21:57 jnthn Though then the unique identifier for it is still a bit tricky.
21:57 moritz_ another idea might be a macro
21:58 moritz_ because a macro can have local storage per "call"
21:58 jnthn yeah, but when you do a macro you lose the multi-dispatch.
21:58 jnthn And thus ff becomes not overloadable.
21:58 moritz_ multi macros? ;-)
21:58 jnthn Ssshhh!
21:58 masak :)
21:59 masak protomacros.
21:59 moritz_ the macro could store the state, and re-dispatch to an ordinary multi
21:59 jnthn Yeah, perhaps.
21:59 jnthn It is an interesting question though, how to get the unique identifier for the operator.
22:00 jnthn .oO( caller's bytecode program counter )
22:00 * moritz_ is sufficiently convinced by the macro idea that he doesn't have to write a mail to p6l
22:00 jnthn .oO( oh, that's not really pure Perl 6 :-) )
22:00 masak oh noes, midnight!
22:00 jnthn Welcome to Thursday.
22:01 masak I kinda liked Wednesday... :/
22:01 jnthn You can have another one next week.
22:01 jnthn They're a renewable resource.
22:01 masak yes, but given the rate at which we're consuming them...
22:02 masak I'm not sure how long they'll last.
22:02 moritz_ masak: I'm sure the calendar FAQ that mberends linked to earlier today has an answer to that ;-)
22:02 masak anyway, off to bed with me. I have to at least pretend to be doing something about my wretched sleep habits of late.
22:03 jnthn masak: Enjoy going to bed with you.
22:03 moritz_ good night masak
22:03 jnthn night
22:03 masak good night. it was nice speaking to you.
22:04 jnthn pmichaud: BTW, does this mean that you've got multi trait_auxilliary:is($x, $y) { } parsing too? ;-)
22:04 pmichaud no.
22:04 moritz_ :<is> please ;-)
22:04 pmichaud trait_auxiliary:<is>  would parse, yes.
22:04 jnthn Oh, yes
22:04 jnthn That's the one I meant.
22:04 jnthn :-)
22:04 jnthn OK, I'm happy.
22:05 jnthn We can haz traits.
22:05 pmichaud it doesn't add it into the parser.... but 'is' is already in the parser.
22:05 jnthn The "adding to the parser" bit for traits ahdn't occured to me so much.
22:05 jnthn It's more declaring overloads of existing ones.
22:06 pmichaud sure, that'll work.  I have that part working already also :-)
22:06 pmichaud the "adding into the parser" is the current obstacle -- not huge, just requires a bit of fiddling around at compile-time to make it happen.
22:06 jnthn std: multi trait_auxiliary:<foo>($x, $y) { }; my $x is 42; my $y foo 42;
22:07 p6eval std 26821: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error at /tmp/RObLCBh6VC line 1:␤------> [32mt_auxiliary:<foo>($x, $y) { }; my $x is [31m42; my $y foo 42;[0m␤    expecting name␤FAILED 00:03 38m␤»
22:07 jnthn std: multi trait_auxiliary:<foo>($x, $y) { }; my $x is Int; my $y foo Int;
22:07 p6eval std 26821: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/PvqgrspKv9 line 1:␤------> [32mo>($x, $y) { }; my $x is Int; my $y foo [31mInt;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤
22:07 p6eval ..   trait␤FAILED...
22:07 jnthn Heh, std doesn't allow that either.
22:07 moritz_ jnthn: I think I gave TimToady a bit of a headache with that one
22:07 pmichaud afaict, std only handles infix:, postfix:, prefix:, etc. at the moment
22:07 jnthn Aye.
22:07 pmichaud I might not have seen the code that handles the other.
22:08 jnthn That's quite enough for now. :-)
22:08 pmichaud std also doesn't seem to handle the assoc, equiv, tighter, or looser traits yet.
22:08 jnthn Ooh, does that mean we might be a bit ahead of std? ;-)
22:08 pmichaud i.e., all infix: operators are treaded as equiv(&infix:<+>)
22:08 jnthn (on that issue...)
22:08 pmichaud yes, I'm aiming for supporting at least equiv
22:08 jnthn woo
22:08 jnthn pmichaud++
22:09 pmichaud if I can get that to work, tighter/looser/assoc won't be far behind.
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22:09 moritz_ fwiw, pugs never did the precedence/associativity traits either
22:09 pmichaud we may run into a few issues with postfix: ops, though, dealing with precedence.
22:10 jnthn At the PGE/Rakudo level, or in a wider Perl 6 sense?
22:10 pmichaud PGE/Rakudo level
22:10 pmichaud TimToady++ has already solved it in STD.pm, but that solution doesn't map well to PGE's current operator parser
22:11 pmichaud it would've been a lot nicer to implement PGE after STD.pm was written, instead of before.  :-)
22:12 pugs_svn r26822 | moritz++ | [t/blocks] remove outdated tests
22:12 pugs_svn r26822 | moritz++ |
22:12 pugs_svn r26822 | moritz++ | The recent spec changes imply that it should be re-written in terms of
22:12 pugs_svn r26822 | moritz++ | augment slang MAIN { ... }, which would be quite different from what it looked
22:12 pugs_svn r26822 | moritz++ | like now
22:14 moritz_ 64 test files remaining that needs review wrt moving to spec/
22:14 moritz_ with less than 300 individual tests in total
22:14 jnthn Impressive!
22:14 moritz_ (in contrast: t/spec is 589 files, 16.5k tests)
22:15 pmichaud really?  There are that few tests left to go?
22:15 moritz_ pmichaud: really.
22:15 pmichaud so the total size of t/spec is upper-bound by 16.8k?
22:15 jnthn Once I've got traits and deference in, I plan to go through S12-* and S14-* and see what's left.
22:15 pmichaud (as it exists today, that is)
22:16 moritz_ (the individual test counts are done by grepping for plan \d+, so not too reliable, but right order of magnitude)
22:16 moritz_ jnthn: I leave t/oo/syntax-but.t for you to review ;-)
22:17 jnthn moritz_: OK, pester me if I forget. :-)
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22:17 moritz_ I'm a bit at loss what to do with t/perl5/
22:17 moritz_ it contains Perl 5 code in '{ use v5; ... }' blocks
22:18 moritz_ should I make that S01-Perl-5-integration/ or so?
22:18 jnthn moritz_: Oh, for testing Perl 5 / Perl 6 integration?
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22:18 moritz_ jnthn: right
22:19 jnthn S01-Perl-5-integration sounds like a sane name for it.
22:19 jnthn moritz_: Do you know how much of it Pugs managed to pass, btw?
22:19 moritz_ jnthn: quite a few, at some point
22:20 moritz_ jnthn: I remembered I once loaded a non-XS perl 5 module from within pugs, and it sort of worked
22:20 moritz_ (linked against libperl, and with some internal bridge)
22:21 jnthn Looks like it's ~75 tests.
22:21 moritz_ actually it's all eval($str, :lang<perl5>)
22:21 moritz_ but still
22:22 jnthn aye
22:22 jnthn That's a bit easier to handle.
22:22 jnthn (Doesn't need parser assistance.)
22:22 moritz_ aye
22:22 moritz_ modify_inside_p5_p6.t being an exception
22:22 moritz_ but it uses something that's both valid Perl 5 and Perl 6
22:23 moritz_ (just with different semantics each)
22:23 jnthn *nod*
22:25 pugs_svn r26823 | moritz++ | [t] move perl5/* to spec/S01-perl-5-integration/
22:25 pugs_svn r26823 | moritz++ |
22:25 pugs_svn r26823 | moritz++ | (Didn't review them all, but the ones I looked at were rather sane)
22:26 moritz_ ok, 52 files left ;-)
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22:34 moritz_ bed time for me
22:35 payload joined #perl6
22:35 raiph_ g'night
22:41 raiph_ tene: i'd like to call your attention to http://pleasedieinafire.net:2080/post/9
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