Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-06-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 snarkyboojum joined #perl6
00:00 TimToady and so you end up wanting your own event loop that can translate external events to a consistent form, and then, of course, you've introduced yet another form of events into the world :/
00:01 sjohnson sounds a bit complicated.. best if i just don't hit the array key
00:01 TimToady it may be turtles all the way down, but it's events all the way back up...
00:01 StephenPollei Null PMC access in get_string() -- you guys were interested in those kinds of things errors?
00:01 sjohnson in the beginning, was Perl hard to write?
00:01 TimToady for some definition of "you" that tends not to include me
00:02 sjohnson back in the NASA days
00:02 TimToady well, Perl was pre-NASA, actually
00:02 TimToady it wasn't rocket science, if that's what you're asking :)
00:02 TimToady but it was hard enough that nobody else did it
00:03 TimToady it's the sort of thing that's easy if you're insane, and impossible otherwise... :)
00:04 StephenPollei {my Role $cino; isa_ok($cino, Role );} that's what caused the Null PMC access
00:04 StephenPollei nobody sane would do that
00:05 sjohnson well you seem to really know C well, with those skills under your belt, i'm curious as to how difficult it was, in general, to implement
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00:05 sjohnson i only know how to do a hello world program in C, and with my skillset, me imagining how to undertake the task is very baffling for my puny brain
00:08 sjohnson but i would be curious to know what 'you' thought about it at the time
00:09 sjohnson if it was fun, east/difficult, rewarding, frustrating at times, etc
00:09 TimToady all of the above
00:09 sjohnson actually, 'hello world' was a bit too much for my C level, i think i wrote a "hello city" program
00:10 TimToady it's about the same difficult as raising children
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00:13 sjohnson was integrated regex technology implemented / thought of right from Square One?
00:13 sjohnson cause it is my favourite feature
00:13 TimToady sure, that's the E of PEARL, extraction
00:14 sjohnson heh
00:15 sjohnson i thought it was Eclectic
00:16 pugs_svn r27053 | stephenpollei++ | added more built-in types to check for existence
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00:43 FurnaceBoy sjohnson, there are at least 2 expansions
00:44 FurnaceBoy Pray Everything Runs Legitimately
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00:49 takadonet hey everyone
00:50 sjohnson heh
00:53 sjohnson hey taka
00:56 takadonet how are you doing sjohnson?
00:57 sjohnson i bit worried, hoping i didn't forget my VISA card at a bar
00:58 takadonet ouch
01:01 sjohnson not concerned about someone taking it, just that my buddy threw a beer bottle in the parknig lot of the place
01:01 sjohnson and hoping they didnt think it was me
01:01 TimToady maybe you need new buddies
01:01 rhr_ joined #perl6
01:05 sjohnson yeah definitely
01:05 sjohnson need guys i can talk about Perl with
01:06 sjohnson for real tho!
01:06 sjohnson i'd rather talk about "geek stuff" than what they talk about
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01:16 sjohnson rakudo:  say my $*DUMMY.WHAT
01:16 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ".WHAT"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
01:16 sjohnson rakudo:  my $*DUMMY; say $*DUMMY.WHAT
01:16 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
01:16 sjohnson rakudo:  my $DUMMY; say $DUMMY.WHAT
01:16 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
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01:18 sjohnson well rakudo thinks i'm a failure
01:19 * sjohnson hangs his head in shame
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01:27 jdv79 everyone fails
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01:28 StephenPollei rakudo: my KeySet $pamu
01:28 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "KeySet $pa"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
01:56 payload joined #perl6
02:17 JDlugosz Hey, what's this about "identify" on this server?  I did what it asked, but it tells me "... not a registered nickname."
02:22 Infinoid If you didn't already have a nickserv account, it doesn't affect you
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05:48 mycelium hello. how relevant the book "Perl 6 and Parrot essentials" (A.Randal, D.Sugalski, L.Totsch, o'reilly, 2004) now?
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06:18 araujo mycelium, it wouldn't hurt to read i think, but things keep changing yet
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07:35 moritz_ mycelium: things like the language design prinicples discussed in the book are still very intersting, but much of the language has changed since...
07:36 moritz_ mycelium: but the book has been open-sourced since then, and kept reasonably up to date. The Perl 6 part now lives in pugs repo, in doos/tutorial iirc
07:39 * masak wonders if we're entering a period of relative stability now
07:40 moritz_ TimToady's and pmichaud's recent discussions about list and captures make me believe otherwise :-)
07:40 Matt-W Morning
07:42 masak Matt-W: o/
07:42 masak moritz_: I truly, fundamentally, don't grok Captures yet.
07:44 * Matt-W doesn't either
07:44 mycelium thanks to all (for answers to my question about perl book)
07:46 moritz_ masak: sometimes I think I do... and then I look at old test cases, or hear TimToady talking... and then it's all gone
07:48 masak the evanescence of Capture. :)
07:51 moritz_ std: sub binary (0|1 $n) { $n }
07:51 p6eval std 27053: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at /tmp/6qtIIliCh8 line 1:␤------> [32msub binary (0[31m|1 $n) { $n }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        param_sep␤        parameter␤        post_constraint␤  trait␤  type_constraint␤    whitespace␤FAILED
07:51 p6eval ..00:02 38m␤»
07:51 moritz_ ouch, I'm sitting at a keyboard that has no dollar sign :/
07:52 Molaf joined #perl6
07:52 masak such is the tyrrany of the Eurozone...
07:54 Matt-W ouch
07:54 Matt-W kind of essential on a programmer keyboard
07:54 Matt-W in any language
07:54 Matt-W except for C programmers
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08:05 DanielC Out of curiosity, why is it that #perl an #perl6 are not in irc.perl.org ?
08:05 xinming joined #perl6
08:06 moritz_ @historical_reasons
08:06 moritz_ and the fact that you shouldn't have to join a perl server just to chat about perl
08:06 moritz_ we don't want to encapsulate our community too much
08:07 DanielC not encapsulating++
08:08 Matt-W encapsulating++ # other things
08:08 pugs_svn r27054 | lwall++ | [S12] dwim on things like: say "Foo = $foo.";
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08:09 pugs_svn r27055 | lwall++ | [STD] say "$foo."; should not be a ."" method call
08:09 pugs_svn r27055 | lwall++ | [CORE] add some missing types found by examples testing
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08:22 DanielC Parrot question: I'm using "substr" to step through every byte in an array (which is represented as a string). Is there a faster way to step through every byte in a byte stream?
08:23 DanielC I wrote a checksum function in PIR and about 70% of the time is spent on "substr".
08:23 snarkyboojum joined #perl6
08:34 Matt-W split it into a list of characters and step over those
08:34 Matt-W and remember that you'll be needing to use something that's actually a collection of bytes when it's implemented
08:36 DanielC The program is already implemented, and currently I use "ord".
08:36 DanielC I don't know how to split a string into a list of characters in PIR.
08:40 DanielC $P0 = split '', $S0
08:41 moritz_ DanielC: I'm sure there's some way to access the bytes, but I don't know if it's available from PIR. But if you write it in C (as a PMC) it will surely work
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08:43 DanielC Someone at #parrot just offered an alternative. Parrot already has an md5 function, and the test file shows how to use it.
08:43 DanielC So I think I'll just go for that.
08:43 DanielC (I'm assuming that that'll be fast)
08:45 moritz_ and if not, you can blame someone else :-)
08:46 DanielC :-)
08:46 DanielC It uses OpenSSL, so it really should be fast.
08:50 masak I've been wanting to use that in November, too. so, DanielC, if you figure out how to call it from Rakudo, please blog about it or nopaste code here, or something. :)
08:51 DanielC sure
08:53 jnthn o/
08:53 DanielC o/
08:54 masak o/
08:56 Matt-W masak: can't you write a module which provides a sub md5 and uses inline PIR?
09:00 Matt-W oooh
09:00 masak I suppose I could. I didn't say it's difficult, just that I haven't bothered to find out how to do it. :)
09:00 Matt-W "Allison committed her remaining local changes to the pcc_rewiring branch, and I'm hoping that a few eyes looking over it will help resolve the remaining problems."
09:00 * masak pictures free-running helpful eyes
09:08 DanielC Yay! It works!
09:09 DanielC And it runs much faster :-D
09:10 masak DanielC++ # show us the code!
09:10 DanielC This is all PIR, no Rakudo. Doy you still want it?
09:11 masak yes, I think so.
09:11 Matt-W oh yes
09:11 DanielC Hmm... is the paste URL working?
09:13 DanielC http://pastebin.com/m51548a6a
09:13 buubot DanielC: The paste m51548a6a has been copied to http://erxz.com/pb/18189
09:14 masak DanielC: thanks!
09:14 DanielC masak: This is for the parrot-module-lib project.
09:15 masak cool.
09:15 DanielC It is light years faster than the Fletcher algorithm I wrote.
09:15 DanielC I'll just document a little before I commit.
09:18 Matt-W light years is not a measurement of time!
09:18 DanielC :-)
09:21 masak neither is it a unit of speed.
09:26 jnthn And anyway, I reckon it's only 100km faster.
09:26 * jnthn yawns
09:31 Matt-W morning jnthn
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09:33 jnthn Matt-W: morning
09:38 Matt-W I had an interesting thing this morning
09:38 Matt-W switched my laptop from Fedora over to Ubuntu 9.04 last night
09:39 Matt-W got all the stuff for building rakudo installed this morning
09:39 Matt-W the arguments to the 'prove' that ships with Ubuntu are different
09:39 Matt-W I had to change my Makefile
09:39 Matt-W Form's is now prove --perl '$(RAKUDO)' -r t/
09:40 Matt-W Found that quite surprising
09:47 DanielC masak:  I uploaded the new checksum program.
09:55 mberends joined #perl6
09:55 DanielC o/ mberends
09:56 mberends o/ backlogging... I see you had some news :)
09:56 DanielC md5 rulez!
09:57 Gothmog_ but br0ken
09:57 Gothmog_ ;-)
09:58 DanielC Gothmog_: Depends on what you want it for.
09:58 DanielC Gothmog_: Too many people throw around the "broken" thing without really understanding it.
09:59 mberends there won't be an exploit for md5 that affects our use case. ever.
09:59 Gothmog_ Yeah, i was just kidding. I understand the issue quite well.
09:59 DanielC We are not using md5 for cryptographic/security purposes. We are only using it as a checksum (aka. to detect accidental error).
09:59 * mberends stumbled over the parrot md5 while reading docs offline this morning :)
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10:09 DanielC On my computer the new checksum.pir takes 1min 34s to hash a 4 GiB file.
10:09 mberends and how long would it take to copy to /dev/null instead?
10:10 * DanielC tries
10:11 mberends disk reading accounts for most of the time
10:11 DanielC I'm sure.
10:11 Matt-W that is quite a lot of data :)
10:12 Matt-W can't throw 4GB files around with impunity quite yet
10:12 DanielC Matt-W: "Genome::Human"? :-)
10:12 Matt-W :)
10:12 Matt-W that'd be fairly large
10:12 DanielC I wonder how large the human genome is in GiB.
10:12 viklund_ Or, "Genome::Wheat" <- several factors larger
10:12 DanielC really?
10:13 viklund_ yes, plants have larger genomes than animals in general
10:13 viklund_ The wheat genome is very tricky
10:13 DanielC That is fascinating.
10:13 viklund_ the human genome is 3 giga basepairs, so about 3GIB
10:13 Matt-W the whole area is extremely odd
10:13 DanielC Is there any reason why? Is it because plants have been around longer maybe?
10:14 viklund_ DanielC: No, on land, animals were first
10:14 mberends afk &
10:14 Matt-W some plants have multiple copies of each chromosome
10:14 DanielC So you can put the human genome on a DVD :)
10:15 Matt-W DanielC: well, somebody's... a description of all the possibilities might be a bit bigger
10:15 viklund_ one hypothesis I heard is that plants can't run away, so they need more elaborate defenses (but I don't know if that's still a likely hypothesis, I don't keep up with plant research)
10:15 DanielC viklund_: ???  Maybe we are not agreeing on the word "plant" but in the Carboniferous period the world was all forest an insects but there were no animals.
10:16 viklund_ DanielC: Ehm, the first things on land out of water were not plants (maybe they weren't animals either)
10:16 DanielC mberends: Copying to /dev/null took 5 minutes (!!!)
10:16 viklund_ single celled protists and stuff probably...
10:17 viklund_ but I don't have any extensive knowledge here either (I do bacteria)
10:17 DanielC What do you do for a living?
10:17 viklund_ PhD student in Molecular Evolution
10:18 DanielC ok
10:18 masak viklund_: interesting. I would at least have thought plants made it out of the water long before animals did.
10:18 masak this is just a feeling, though. I haven't checked.
10:18 viklund_ masak: Yes, that's the intuition
10:19 DanielC We might be disagreeing on the word "plant" because a lot of the things that people often think of as plants, are not, but I don't know what to call the more general type.
10:19 DanielC e.g. algae is not a plant.
10:20 viklund_ DanielC: This question came up on a JC we had half a year ago, one of the younger lecturers said it, and we said "interesting", and that was basically it
10:21 masak Wikipedia puts the oldest land plant fossils at late Silurian. I haven't found a corresponding time point for land animals.
10:21 viklund_ I guess I should check up on it in more detail, so I know what I'm talking about...
10:21 DanielC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous  <-- Says that in the Carboniferous periods there were already plants and insects and this is the time when the first tetrapods (all amphibians at the time) went into land.
10:22 masak ah. good.
10:22 viklund_ kv bj
10:22 viklund_ daughter touching keyboard...
10:22 masak she's showing early talent.
10:23 jnthn std: kv bj
10:23 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤   bj used at 1 ␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
10:23 jnthn Well, she wrote a valid Perl 6 program.
10:23 DanielC heh
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10:26 DanielC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian  <--  The first "plants".
10:26 DanielC According to wikipedia, the first fish to evolve legs are in the Devonian.
10:26 lichtkind mberends: i did C yesterday night
10:26 DanielC The Devonian also has the first "seed bearing plants"
10:27 DanielC But in the Silurian we have moss and "the first fossil records of vascular plants".
10:27 masak DanielC: and insects? did they come after the plants, too?
10:27 DanielC masak: I always imagined so, but I don't know.
10:27 * DanielC keeps reading Wikipedia
10:27 masak I also imagine they did.
10:28 DanielC "the first possible fossils of insects appeared around 416 Ma in the Early Devonian."
10:28 DanielC Yes, that's after plants.
10:29 DanielC "the first fish evolved legs and started to walk on land as tetrapods around 365 Ma"
10:30 DanielC So insects come about 60 million years before tetrapods.
10:30 masak though the 'fish evolved legs' is a bit of an oversimplification, I'd say.
10:30 DanielC Well, that's from the introductory paragraph.
10:30 masak it has been successfully popularized by images from the 60's, IIRC. :)
10:30 DanielC It is supposed to be a simplification. I guess if I read the whole article I'll find details.
10:31 masak DanielC: no, I mean the whole 'animals getting up on land' business. it's fascinating when you start to think of the motives the early water-dwelling creatures could have really had.
10:32 viklund_ That "fish evolved legs" after plants on land doesn't really contradict that there were animals on land before plants, they might have went extinct though, but as I said I'm going to do a check-up on this, going to work later today.
10:32 masak DanielC: for example, crawling over a low embankment from one shallow pool to another.
10:32 masak DanielC: and no legs were needed for that, just the ability to crawl and shuffle around.
10:32 DanielC I documentary I saw said that it began with fish going to shallower and shallower waters to escape predators.
10:33 viklund_ masak: Laying eggs on land will protect them from predators
10:33 masak sure, sure.
10:33 viklund_ and so on...
10:33 viklund_ that might have happened before plants even
10:33 * masak likes the 'and so on...' part
10:34 viklund_ so I guess it's also a question of what we mean with "land animals"
10:34 viklund_ anyway, I'm speculating wildly here
10:34 DanielC viklund_: What land animal came before legs?
10:34 viklund_ something crawling up, laying eggs in the sand, and the crawling back?
10:35 viklund_ a bony fish should be able to do that I think
10:35 DanielC fish with legs == crawling ?
10:35 viklund_ no
10:35 DanielC I don't think that they mean that the fish were walking around.
10:35 viklund_ snakes don't have legs
10:35 * DanielC considers getting pedantic about snakes, but decides not to :)
10:35 viklund_ ;)
10:37 DanielC Well, anyways, you are right that it depends on what we mean by "land animals". I was thinking of amphibians. But I would be interested to know if there were fish who would crawl on land and "hold their breath".
10:37 viklund_ when did crabs and such evolve?
10:37 DanielC similar to tetrapods
10:37 viklund_ DanielC: yes
10:37 viklund_ ok
10:40 DanielC At least, a documentary I saw seemed to say so. The documentary also painted the picture of athropods and vertebrates/tetrapods fighting for dominance for millenia.
10:40 DanielC Some times one group dominates, and some times the other. It was very interesting.
10:50 mberends DanielC, the /dev/null copy must have been bytewise, maybe that's a cp thing. maybe try this instead: dd if=MyBigFile of=/dev/null bs=65536 count=65536
11:00 * DanielC tries dd
11:01 * Matt-W tries to figure out how perl 5's unpack actually works
11:02 DanielC Matt-W: I have never understood pack/unpack.
11:02 Matt-W me neither
11:02 Matt-W but I need it now
11:03 masak unpack is wonderful. and no, I don't grok it either.
11:03 DanielC mberends: dd took 3min.
11:03 DanielC mberends: Oh wait...
11:03 DanielC The file is bigger than 4GiB.
11:03 DanielC mberends: How do you make dd read only the first 4GiB?
11:04 DanielC The file is 7.6 GiB
11:04 DanielC actually, 7.6G
11:05 Matt-W okay, I think i figured out unpack
11:05 masak that was quick!
11:06 Matt-W okay
11:06 Matt-W no I didn't
11:07 Matt-W argh
11:08 Matt-W the documentation just bounces off me
11:08 Matt-W I'm going to have some lunch
11:08 DanielC mberends: So let's see... 7.6G is 7.07GiB. If 7.08GiB takes 3min to read, then 4GiB should take 1min 42sec. But the md5 program ran in 1min 34sec. So the cost of the md5 is clearly negligible.
11:08 DanielC s/7.07/7.08/
11:10 antiphase bytes read = bs*count or the file size, whichever smaller
11:23 masak rakudo: my $anthem = $*IN.slurp; say $anthem.chars; say $anthem.bytes;
11:23 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«616␤639␤»
11:24 sjohnson hey masak how's it going
11:24 eternaleye joined #perl6
11:25 masak sjohnson: hey sjohnson! it's going well, I think. too little time for Perl 6 lately, but I really shouldn't complain. :)
11:25 masak sjohnson: how are you?
11:26 masak rakudo: my @anthem = $*IN.slurp.comb; say @anthem.grep({ .bytes > 1 }).perl
11:26 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["Ä", "ä", "ß", "ö", "ü", "ö", "ü", "Ö", "ü", "Ö", "ß", "ü", "ü", "Ö", "ü", "Ö", "ä", "ß", "ü", "ö", "ö", "Ö", "Ö"]␤»
11:26 masak :)
11:26 jnthn \o/
11:26 sjohnson could be better
11:27 masak sjohnson: sorry to hear that.
11:28 jnthn my @anthem = $*IN.slurp.comb; say @anthem.grep({ .bytes > 1 })>>.lc.uniq.perl
11:28 masak rakudo: say $*IN.slurp.comb.grep({ .bytes > 1 }).join
11:28 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«ÄäßöüöüÖüÖßüüÖüÖäßüööÖÖ␤»
11:28 jnthn rakudo: my @anthem = $*IN.slurp.comb; say @anthem.grep({ .bytes > 1 })>>.lc.uniq.perl
11:28 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«["ä", "ß", "ö", "ü"]␤»
11:28 masak oh, the endless hours of fun to be had with the Austrian national anthem...
11:29 * jnthn is happy to sneak paralell dispatch into another example
11:29 sjohnson what do you guys use as your favourite console irc client?
11:29 jnthn irssi
11:29 masak rakudo: say $*IN.slurp.comb.grep({ .bytes > 1 })>>.lc.uniq.sort.join
11:29 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«ßäöü␤»
11:29 sjohnson i use weechat but am thinking to switch back to irssi because it won't save a chat conversation with a command by default
11:29 masak sjohnson: ERC.
11:30 masak it rocks.
11:30 sjohnson and everywhere in that channel is making fun of me for suggesting this
11:30 sjohnson such a simple f**king feature
11:30 sjohnson </rant>
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11:31 sjohnson i feel better already
11:31 sjohnson rakudo: say "sjohnson, don't feel so bad about it";
11:31 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«sjohnson, don't feel so bad about it␤»
11:31 masak sjohnson: ERC gives your chat session the flexibility of Emacs. not much beats that. saving chats is just the beginning.
11:33 sjohnson i am listening
11:33 sjohnson and interested
11:34 masak sjohnson: no, that's all. :) use ERC.
11:34 masak the better you know Emacs, the more you'll be able to leverage into your ERC usage, of course.
11:35 masak but knowing that an extensible, programmable, insanely configurable editor sits right behind your chat window is... kinda nice.
11:35 rjh or kinda horrifying
11:35 * jnthn is surprised that the Emacs operating system didn't come with an IRC client built in as well as a text editor. ;-)
11:35 masak :)
11:36 sjohnson to be honest, i'm move of a vi user
11:36 sjohnson would i still like it?
11:36 masak jnthn: I think my Emacs installation came with ERC, actually.
11:36 masak jnthn: but it is a module, just like almost everything else.
11:36 masak sjohnson: that's up to you to decide. I'm a vim user too.
11:36 masak I simply use Emacs and vim for different things.
11:37 sjohnson kind of like how i use Miracle Whip and mayonnaise for different things
11:37 masak yes, kind of like that.
11:37 * jnthn has to look up Miracle Whip
11:39 masak Miracle Whip must be the Emacs isomorph in this analogy. :)
11:39 sjohnson in all honestly i like miracle whip on as much things as mayonnaise
11:39 sjohnson well dudes, i should be going to bed
11:40 sjohnson nice chatting briefly with you guys.  tomorrow, i no longer pledge allegience to my current irc client
11:40 viklund_ jnthn: is it possible to decode a string to utf8 in rakudo (either directly or via some parrot and PIR) right now?
11:41 viklund_ that is, do you know if there is a parrot function to do it?
11:41 jnthn I think maybe the transcode op?
11:42 viklund_ ok, we have problems with encodings in November, and I've realized we need to be able to converr
11:42 viklund_ s/r$/t
11:42 viklund_ s{$}{/}
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11:42 * viklund_ is still in p5regex mode
11:43 jnthn viklund_: Ah, mayve it's trans_encoding
11:43 jnthn http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/src/ops/string.ops.html
11:44 viklund_ jnthn: ok, thanks, I'll check that out tonight and see if I can feed it a Perl6String somehow
11:44 viklund_ c u
11:44 viklund_ o/
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11:52 Matt-W masak: having fun with svn?
11:54 masak Matt-W: it's like, I know updating with SVN on the terminal window is easy. it's not trivial, but I can get around the errors that SVN, in its infantile stubbornness, throws at me. but to get those same errors as dialog windows, and then have to resolve them by navigating window menus... that's just sadism.
11:56 payload joined #perl6
11:57 Matt-W heh
11:58 Matt-W well I'm going quietly mad over here
11:58 masak I'm actually at a point in my life where the assertion that doing things on a CLI is easier than using a GUI seems not only obviously true, but impossible to question.
11:58 masak and I'm a Mac OS X user!
11:58 Matt-W I think it depends on the CLI and the GUI
11:58 Matt-W I do prefer a GUI web browser
11:58 masak oh, right. hum.
11:58 Matt-W I hybridise
11:59 Matt-W some things are easier on the CLI, definitely
11:59 Matt-W I use GNOME Do (rather like Quicksilver) to launch GUI apps though
11:59 Matt-W it's much easier to just do super-space pid<Enter> than trying to find the pidgin launcher and click on it
11:59 Matt-W argh
12:00 Matt-W why do we have to encrypt passwords before sending them over the wire
12:00 Matt-W it's just causing me pain :(
12:02 payload well humans tend to talk to each other instead of expressing themself with a bunch of fingers pointing at stuff. i think a cli and a gui relates much the same
12:03 Matt-W it's nice to be able to talk to the computer
12:03 Matt-W argh
12:03 Matt-W must stop writing Perl 6 things
12:03 Matt-W this'd be so much less ugly in Perl 6
12:03 masak :)
12:04 masak Matt-W: that's how we reel people in, with the allure of beautiful code.
12:05 Matt-W unfortunately I have to write perl 5 today
12:05 Matt-W I'm not sure even if what I'm trying to do is correct
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12:14 DanielC rakudo: class Foo { method bar() { return self } }; my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar()
12:14 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf:  ( no output )
12:14 DanielC rakudo: class Foo { method bar() { return self } }; my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar().perl.say
12:14 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Foo.new()␤»
12:14 DanielC Ok. I guess that this means that "return self" does what I think it does.
12:15 masak DanielC: what do you think it does?
12:16 DanielC $foo2 = $foo.bar() would be another link to the same object.
12:17 DanielC $foo2 and $foo are the same guy.
12:19 jnthn That's what it does.
12:19 DanielC thanks
12:19 jnthn rakudo: class Foo { method bar() { return self } }; my $foo = Foo.new(); say $foo.WHERE; say $foo.bar().WHERE
12:19 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«-1229318128␤-1229318128»
12:19 jnthn Same memory address for both.
12:20 DanielC .WHERE++
12:20 DanielC I've noticed that Perl 6 has a lot of useful introspection features.
12:21 masak rakudo: say 1.WHERE
12:21 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«-1230127720␤»
12:21 masak rakudo: say 1.WHERE; 2.WHERE
12:21 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«-1229658184␤»
12:21 masak rakudo: say 1.WHERE; say 2.WHERE
12:21 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«-1229717120␤-1229732936␤»
12:21 Matt-W WOOOHOO! Success!
12:21 Matt-W ahem
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12:23 jnthn DanielC: Rakudo is implementing more and more of 'em too.
12:23 jnthn rakudo: say Any.^methods(:local).elems # how many methods does Any have
12:23 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«66␤»
12:24 DanielC rakudo: 1.^methods.perl.say
12:24 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«[{ ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ...
12:24 p6eval ..}, { …
12:24 DanielC ?
12:24 jnthn .perl on a code isn't so useful yet.
12:24 masak :)
12:24 DanielC ok
12:24 jnthn rakudo: Any.^methods>>.name>>.say
12:24 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«can␤isa␤does␤Complex␤elems␤end␤keys␤kv␤pick␤sort␤values␤abs␤int␤log␤polar␤sqrt␤»
12:25 DanielC cool....
12:25 ruoso joined #perl6
12:25 jnthn ...that wasn't 66 of em, p6eval!
12:25 DanielC I really like all the introspection.
12:25 jnthn I metamodel and liked it.
12:26 DanielC I also love how everything is an object, so you can do 1.foo() and something.perl.say and so on.
12:26 Matt-W I've loved that idea ever since I saw Ruby do 10.times { }
12:26 ruoso Hello!
12:26 Matt-W which I thought was pretty cool
12:26 ruoso mildew: say 'Good Morning, #perl6'
12:26 DanielC These are all things that I've always found very attractive about Ruby, and I'm very glad Perl 6 is copying them.
12:26 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Good Morning, #perl6␤»
12:26 Matt-W calling a method on a literal, and then giving it a closure
12:26 DanielC Matt-W: Ruby++
12:27 Matt-W apple's new multicore programming thing seems to be based on closures, by the way
12:27 Matt-W they've added something very closure-like to C, C++ and Objective-C
12:27 DanielC I'm glad that Perl 6 is copying so many great things from Ruby.
12:27 Matt-W and they pass them around to different threads
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12:27 Matt-W I suspect it's something we could do very easily :)
12:27 Matt-W DanielC: it's copying great things from all over, and then doing great things of its own
12:28 DanielC Yes, it is.
12:28 Matt-W Writing in Perl 5 seems primitive and clunky to me now, even with rakudo in the state it's in
12:28 DanielC Perl 6 is also copying a lot of great things from Haskell, and things like hyperoperaors and junctions are brand new.
12:29 DanielC Perl 6 seems like a mixture of my previous three favourite languages: Perl 5, Ruby and Haskell.
12:29 Matt-W well I love Haskell
12:29 Matt-W so I have no complaints
12:29 DanielC y
12:29 DanielC Perl 6 = Perl 5 + Ruby + Haskell + new stuff.
12:30 DanielC I love that.
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12:32 Matt-W Perl 6 == AWESOME
12:32 DanielC Question: I define class Foo and $foo is an instance. How do I tell Perl what it should do when I write "say $foo" ?
12:32 Matt-W define method Str
12:32 Matt-W which tells it what to do when it's asked to stringify
12:33 DanielC class Foo { method Str { ... } }  <-- like that?
12:33 Matt-W and return a suitable string to represent the instance
12:33 Matt-W yes
12:33 DanielC thanks
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12:33 Matt-W rakudo: class A { method Str { say "Hello!" } }; say A.new;
12:33 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Hello!␤1␤»
12:34 Matt-W hmm
12:34 Matt-W where did that 1 come from?
12:34 DanielC rakudo: class A { method Str { "Hello!" } }; say A.new;
12:34 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Hello!␤»
12:34 Matt-W oh
12:34 Matt-W silly me :)
12:34 DanielC :-)
12:34 Matt-W that's what I meant to write
12:34 Matt-W DanielC++
12:35 DanielC rakudo: 1 == 1 ? say "y" : say "n"
12:35 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "? say \"y\" "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
12:35 DanielC rakudo: 1 == 1 ?? say "y" !! say "n"
12:36 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«y␤»
12:36 DanielC hm
12:36 Matt-W you'll get used to that :)
12:36 DanielC p6eval took some time to figure that out.
12:37 rjh out of interest why are we using ?? !! now
12:37 DanielC rakudo: say "ans " ~ 1 == 1 ?? "y" !! "n"
12:37 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«n␤»
12:37 DanielC rjh: Because ? : is too easy.  :-(
12:37 DanielC rakudo: say "ans " ~ (1 == 1 ?? "y" !! "n")
12:38 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«ans y␤»
12:38 rjh They do stand out more, which is better
12:39 DanielC I don't like ?? because it makes my text editor's syntax highlighting go beserk.
12:39 DanielC rjh: Nice rationalization.
12:39 rjh well, they're a conditional construct and they're often lazily used on one line
12:40 rjh still don't like it
12:40 rjh ancient perl dictates that ?? can be used as a symonym for // :)
12:41 jnthn C# uses ?? for null-or
12:42 DanielC If C# jumps off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff   <jk>
12:44 DanielC Oh well. ?? will do.
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12:48 jnthn DanielC: Heh, was just noting another language making use of ??. :-)
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12:49 jnthn C# is in the top four (computer) languages I write in.
12:49 DanielC What are the other three?
12:55 jnthn Perl 5, Perl 6 (or subsets of), C.
12:55 jnthn C I only really write for Rakudo/Parrot though.
13:00 DanielC if you write class F { has $.a, $.b, $c is rw }  does that mean that $.a, $.b, $.c are all read-write or is it just $.c ?
13:01 rjh std: class F { has $.a, $.b, $.c is rw }
13:01 p6eval std 27055:  ( no output )
13:02 DanielC rakudo: class F { has $.a, $.b, $.c is rw }; my $x = F.new(); $x.a = 1;
13:02 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "is rw }; m"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
13:02 jnthn class F { has ($.a, $.b, $.c is rw) }; my $x = F.new(); $x.a = 1;
13:03 jnthn rakudo: class F { has ($.a, $.b, $.c is rw) }; my $x = F.new(); $x.a = 1;
13:03 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in Main (/tmp/JSryPiXZyJ:2)␤»
13:03 DanielC I see.
13:03 rjh weird that you need the brackets
13:03 jnthn I think that's odd that it applied the is rw to $.a there..
13:03 DanielC Is it possible to put the rw before? "has rw $a"
13:03 jnthn no
13:03 DanielC :-(
13:04 rjh it didn't apply rw to $.a ?
13:04 DanielC "Cannot assign to readonly variable"
13:05 jnthn oh yeah!
13:05 jnthn So it's right!
13:05 jnthn duh. :-)
13:05 jnthn rakudo 1, jnthn 0
13:06 rjh jnthn: noticed your comment about MultiSub inheriting from PMCResizableArray
13:06 rjh *RPA even
13:06 rjh Out of curiosity how is that stupid
13:07 jnthn Because a MultiSub has an array of candidates, rather than being an array.
13:08 jnthn The way it is now, it inherits all of the things that arrays get.
13:08 jnthn Which then causes all kinds of problems.
13:08 jnthn Because we expect a multi to be something you can talk about as one thing, rather than being a list.
13:08 DanielC rakudo: class F { has $.a, $.b }
13:08 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Lexical 'self' not found␤»
13:08 DanielC ???
13:08 rjh I see, it doesn't have methods that subs have
13:08 jnthn DanielC: That parses as (has $.a), $.b
13:09 rjh you had to fudge them in
13:09 DanielC rakudo: class F { has ($.a, $.b) }
13:09 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf:  ( no output )
13:09 jnthn rjh: Well, the bigger problem is that on an isa check, it claims to be a list.
13:09 DanielC jnthn: Is that correct or is it a bug?
13:09 jnthn List flattning then tries to flatten out the multi, and then things explode.
13:09 rjh so it should be a 'has' relation, not an 'isa'
13:09 DanielC rakudo: class F { has ($.a, $.b = 1) }
13:09 jnthn rjh: Right.
13:09 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf:  ( no output )
13:09 rjh thanks for explaining
13:10 rjh So that's going to be fixed in the future, then?
13:10 jnthn rjh: The number of workarounds Rakudo has got for this is...irritating.
13:10 DanielC std: class F { has $.a, $.b }
13:10 rjh It doesn't sound like it would be difficult to change.
13:10 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
13:10 jnthn rjh: I hope so. I'm whined about it on #parrot in hope that somebody will take the initiative. :-)
13:10 jnthn rjh: But otherwise I'll probably get to it myself.
13:10 DanielC jnthn: So, this is a bug in Rakkudo?
13:11 jnthn DanielC: std checks syntax, not semantic/runtime issues.
13:11 jnthn Rakudo isn't saying it's a syntax error.
13:11 rjh what is rakudo trying to do with has $.a, $.b
13:11 jnthn std: my $a, $b;
13:11 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $b is not predeclared at /tmp/AfrqhbZrgk line 1:␤------> [32mmy $a, $b[31m;[0m␤ok 00:02 37m␤»
13:11 jnthn It's exactly because of this.
13:11 jnthn std: my ($a, $b);
13:11 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
13:11 jnthn Same difference with has.
13:12 DanielC But std did not have the same complaint about "has".
13:12 rjh it doesn't know if $.b already exists
13:12 jnthn Sure, because $.b would in theory work.
13:12 jnthn erm,
13:12 jnthn *could*
13:13 DanielC ok
13:13 jnthn It's just a method call.
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13:15 rjh confusing... perl 5 allows my $a = 1, $b = 5; (with strict and warnings)
13:15 rjh but not my $a, $b;
13:16 jnthn Really?
13:16 jnthn That surprises me a little.
13:19 rjh i don't get why you'd prohibit my/has $a, $b
13:20 payload joined #perl6
13:22 dakkar rjh: try with different names. $a and $b are special in Perl 5
13:22 dakkar perl -Mstrict -Mwarnings -e 'my $foo=1,$bar=5'
13:22 dakkar Global symbol "$bar" requires explicit package name at -e line 1.
13:22 baest my ($x, $y) would work, though
13:23 dakkar sure
13:23 rjh dakkar: thx
13:24 rjh so the second assignment is to the global $b
13:24 dakkar yep
13:24 * rjh still doesn't get the syntax
13:24 dakkar the comma is the "comma operator", borrowed from C
13:24 rjh $foo = (1, $bar = 5)
13:24 dakkar it takes two expressions, evaluates them in order, and throws away the result of the first one, returing the second one
13:25 rjh that doesn't seem sensible when declaring a variable
13:25 dakkar my $foo=1,$bar=2 ==> my $foo=1;$bar=2;
13:25 dakkar of course not
13:25 rjh i see
13:26 dakkar that's why you need parentheses
13:26 rjh it's rather stupid that my() has such low precedence
13:26 dakkar hmm
13:27 dakkar I'm not sure it's just a matter of precedence
13:27 dakkar when you write (in Perl 6) my ($foo,$bar)=(1,2); you get a signature on the lhs, and the rhs is seen as a capture
13:28 dakkar (please someone stop me if I'm saying wrong things)
13:29 jnthn dakkar: signature on lhs is correct.
13:29 dakkar thanks :)
13:29 pmurias joined #perl6
13:29 pmurias ruoso: hi
13:31 decasm joined #perl6
13:32 ruoso hi pmurias
13:38 pmurias ruoso: one thing i'm worried about is that the mildew with the amount of stuff in Perl 6 will be horribly slow
13:39 ruoso pmurias, all evil is premature optimization squared
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14:41 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:41 Matt-W hi pmichaud
14:42 jnthn hi pmichaud
14:43 buu joined #perl6
14:43 Matt-W my server died :(
14:43 Matt-W something chewed up all the memory
14:43 Matt-W hammering the database in the process
14:44 Matt-W wouldn't it be much easier if these things didn't have to be reachable from the internet
14:46 rjh ...you'd replace your server with a carrier pidgeon? that doesn't sound easier.
14:47 rjh -d
14:48 Matt-W at least all you have to do is feed them
14:48 Matt-W and defend them from birds of prey
14:48 Matt-W and jet engines
14:49 Matt-W maybe two yoghurt pots and some string?
14:49 rjh really, really long string
14:49 sri_kraih joined #perl6
14:49 Matt-W yes
14:49 Matt-W kept nice and tight
14:50 Matt-W but then you're vulnerable to an idiot with a pair of scissors
14:50 rjh and then eventually we'd connect string across all the different computers
14:50 rjh and route vibrations across them
14:50 rjh ahem
14:52 payload i want to use Web.pm. i put it in rakudo/projects/web but maybe it's the wrong place... perl6 rakudo/projects/web/Configure complains that there is no ./Configure in @*INC... perl6 -e '@*INC.say' prints "."
14:54 buubot joined #perl6
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15:09 FurnaceBoy rjh++
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15:45 viklund_ is there a guide somewhere on how to use Q:PIR?
15:46 pmichaud right here.
15:46 moritz_ viklund_: Q:PIR{ pir code here }
15:46 pmichaud note that each PIR statement has to be on a line by itself
15:46 moritz_ viklund_: return values can be assigned to %r
15:47 viklund_ moritz_: ok, thx
15:47 pmichaud you're free to safely use $P0...$P9, $S0..$S9, $I0..$I9, $N0..$N9
15:47 viklund_ that is a start
15:47 moritz_ viklund_: and find_lex 'variablename' finds Perl 6 lexicals and parameters
15:47 pmichaud note that the %r must be a PMC
15:47 moritz_ afk again :-)
15:47 viklund_ ok, I start with some simple stuff and then see what I can do
15:47 nihiliad joined #perl6
15:50 pmichaud there are several examples in src/setting
15:50 viklund_ yes, I'm looking at those
15:56 payload joined #perl6
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15:59 viklund_ shouldn't this work: http://pastebin.com/d2478cf78
15:59 viklund_ or have I misunderstood something?
15:59 viklund_ (probably the latter)
15:59 jnthn viklund_: hmm, that doesn't look so wrong
16:00 jnthn rakudo: my $r = Q:PIR { %r = box 1 }; say $r;
16:00 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«1␤»
16:00 viklund_ ok, I'll recompile my rakudo to see
16:01 viklund_ if that's somehow the error
16:03 jnthn Hmm...maybe but I dodn't remember that stuff changing of late.
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16:05 viklund_ oh, well, it can't hurt
16:06 viklund_ but it didn't work
16:06 * jnthn je confusovany
16:06 jnthn viklund_: What error do you get?
16:06 viklund_ Lexical '$r' not found
16:06 viklund_ but I can run it via ./perl6 -e <what jnthn wrote up there>
16:07 viklund_ that works
16:07 viklund_ oh
16:07 viklund_ I didn't paste the hole thing
16:07 viklund_ I had a 'use v6' at the top of that file as well
16:08 viklund_ when I removed that it worked
16:08 jnthn :-|
16:08 jnthn That's...odd;
16:08 viklund_ but it works now, so I'm happy, rakudobug?
16:08 viklund_ I can send one if you want to
16:09 pmichaud I wonder if the 'use v6' was missing a semi.
16:09 viklund_ might
16:09 viklund_ pmichaud: yes, it was :p
16:09 * viklund_ is embarrassed
16:10 jnthn rakudo: use v6 my $foo;
16:10 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf:  ( no output )
16:10 jnthn rakudo: use pimp my $ride;
16:10 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf:  ( no output )
16:10 viklund_ jnthn: LOL
16:10 * jnthn suspects parsing bug.
16:11 jnthn std: use pimp my $ride;
16:11 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
16:11 jnthn oh
16:11 * jnthn is a litle surprised
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16:18 moritz_ rjh: I backlogged a bit... beware: in Perl 5 $a and $b are not subject to "use strict", so if you want to test its behaviour, use different variables ;-)
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16:27 rjh moritz_: yeah, I know they're "special" globals for sort, just forgot :)
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16:48 payload proto doesn't build perl 6 :(
16:51 unitxt joined #perl6
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16:56 payload http://pastebin.com/m29155eb1
16:57 viklund payload: just a moment
16:58 viklund I think its pretty simple to fix
16:59 viklund btw, are you using the default config file?
16:59 viklund or have you changed rakudo to bleeding?
17:00 payload well i changed to bleeding
17:01 viklund did you uncomment self.CREATE in lib/Installer.pm and lib/Ecosystem.pm?
17:01 viklund and additonally are you running proto from the proto dir?
17:01 moritz_ when I see just the title of an RT ticket and know "oh, that's by masak" - then you know that my vacations weren't long enough ;-)
17:02 payload ah it's in two files... i just saw and uncommented in Ecosystem... need a sec
17:02 payload yes, i run from ./proto/
17:02 viklund ok
17:02 payload ah done, thx
17:03 viklund np
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17:37 payload hmm, tests of web.pm fail
17:37 M_o_C joined #perl6
17:37 payload :-\ t/01-web-basics.t ............ Unknown import list expression in use at line 2, near ";\nplan 1;\n"
17:39 payload ah i think it uses the wrong  prove
17:39 payload well no
17:39 payload no idea
17:42 viklund unfourtunatly I dont know anything of Web.pm...
17:42 viklund ask masak, when he shows up
17:43 viklund there are some other ppl in that project too, forgot who now...
17:43 hanekomu joined #perl6
17:46 Tene Me!
17:46 Tene Except I never looked at the tests.
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17:51 payload std: use foo.pm;
17:51 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
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18:22 TimToady payload: yes, it parses, but it doesn't mean what you think it means
18:22 payload well it is used in web.pm test 01 as      use Test.pm;        it fails a line afterwards ^^
18:23 payload i think it must be       use Test;
18:23 payload unless i want only to import    sub pm    in the Test module
18:25 payload is there a way to see all modules which are importable? like in python the  help("modules")  ?
18:26 TimToady not yet, the library API is still in negotiation
18:29 TimToady but it's the sort of thing that I expect will be supported
18:29 TimToady since we're moving toward more of a database-ish view of at least the officially installed modules
18:30 TimToady btw, it's parsing (in STD) as use foo $_.pm
18:31 TimToady perhaps we should require some whitespace after the module name
18:50 payload rakudo:
18:50 payload =begin usage
18:50 payload foo
18:50 payload =end usage
18:50 payload bah
18:50 payload well it would say    =begin without matching =end at line 1, near "\nfoo\n=end "
18:53 payload ah, it needs USAGE :-\
19:03 sjohnson hello Toady
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19:15 Fuad Hello all
19:16 Tene Hi!
19:17 jnthn hi Fuad
19:18 Fuad Long time,jnthn:)
19:19 jnthn Aye. :-)
19:19 jnthn How's things?
19:19 Fuad Fine here(:
19:19 Fuad How are you doing?
19:19 sjohnson 4hello faud
19:19 sjohnson fuad
19:19 jnthn I'm good. Today is last day of work, then I'm having holiday. :-)
19:19 Fuad sjohnson ;)
19:19 Fuad jnthn,thats a great news:P
19:20 Fuad you can breather so easily now
19:20 jnthn :-)
19:21 Fuad i will be in the army:>
19:21 Fuad after 1 month
19:21 Fuad for 1 year
19:21 jnthn Ah, required national service?
19:21 Fuad so no holiday for me;)
19:21 donaldh joined #perl6
19:21 jnthn Yes, army is almost certainly not a holiday.
19:22 Fuad i was studing my masters degree,thats why i didnt go after my university graduation
19:22 jnthn Ah, OK.
19:23 * Fuad waves at mberends
19:23 Fuad where is ,masak?:)
19:24 jnthn He was around earlier today I think, maybe back later tonight.
19:24 Fuad ah nice
19:44 sjohnson jnthn: off topic, but do you use any irssi plugins?
19:45 jnthn sjohnson: no
19:45 jnthn sjohnson: I didn't even know there was such a thing. ;-)
19:46 sjohnson indeed! they are written in.. you guessed it... PERL!
19:46 sjohnson http://scripts.irssi.org/
19:47 jnthn "This script strips the hungarian accents." - but I never speak with one!
19:47 sjohnson yeah i don't need that one
19:47 sjohnson ;)
19:48 sjohnson i wodner if i should whip up a piglatin -> english translator
19:48 spage joined #perl6
19:49 jnthn How long do you it'd take me to get /kick'd if I started using http://scripts.irssi.org/html/dau.pl.html#switch_leet- ? ;-)
19:50 sjohnson considering you are an op here, probably a few years
19:50 sjohnson me, on the other hand
19:51 sjohnson 5 minutes? :)
19:51 jnthn Yeah I'd get all 1337 and kick you and everyone would be like w00t d00d!
19:51 jnthn OK, time for me to go grab someone from the airport...back in a while.
19:52 Tene jnthn: the only problem with that is that the server doesn't understand /|<1ck
19:53 xinming joined #perl6
19:53 Fuad left #perl6
19:53 kane__ joined #perl6
19:56 Meldrake joined #perl6
20:00 sjohnson maybe TimToady wrote some of these irssi plugins :)
20:00 pmichaud phone # be there in 2
20:03 sjohnson pmichaud: are you getting picked up from the airport/
20:12 finanalyst left #perl6
20:13 pmichaud sjohnson: ??
20:16 sjohnson i thought jnthn was picking ya up
20:18 TimToady must have been two other people...
20:18 payload i have following regex: / ^ \/pub\/ $ /
20:19 TimToady Perl 6?
20:19 payload how can i change    /  ...   /  to something where i don't have to escape   /  ?
20:19 payload Perl 6, sure
20:19 TimToady m[ ^ '/pub/' $ ]
20:20 payload ah nice
20:20 TimToady though in that case, / ^ '/pub/' $ / also works
20:20 TimToady or m!! or m<> etc
20:20 TimToady or use rx if you want to defer evaluation
20:21 sjohnson does the same idea work in p5?
20:21 payload well maybe i search some weird unicode ( )
20:21 sjohnson i've been getting around it by putting what i want to check by in separate vars
20:21 TimToady yes, though not internal quotes
20:21 sjohnson probably the cludge way to do it, but it worked
20:23 TimToady rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m『.(.).』
20:23 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
20:23 TimToady rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m『.(.).』[0]
20:23 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Regex'␤»
20:23 TimToady rakudo: say ("abc" ~~ m『.(.).』)[0]
20:23 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«b␤»
20:24 payload rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ⦃.(.).⦄
20:24 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
20:24 sjohnson can we get a Perl5 evaluator on here too?
20:25 payload rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ↪.(.).↩
20:25 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
20:25 TimToady addictive, ain't it?
20:26 payload rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄
20:26 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
20:26 payload omg
20:26 ruoso is that right?
20:26 ruoso (wtf symbols are that?)
20:26 payload is a snowman always closed by a meteor
20:26 payload ?
20:26 TimToady snowman and comet?
20:27 TimToady I think that's bogus
20:27 TimToady std: abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄
20:27 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/XeeIOePMN4 line 1:␤------> [32mabc[31m" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    POST␤   argument list␤      infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤  postfix␤  postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard
20:27 p6eval ..stopper␤       statement modifier…
20:27 TimToady std: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☄
20:27 p6eval std 27055:  ( no output )
20:27 sjohnson TimToady: is a Perl5 evaluator on this chan too radical?
20:28 TimToady no, too conservative
20:28 TimToady std: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☃
20:28 p6eval std 27055: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 37m␤»
20:28 payload a python evaluator to act as a bad example?
20:28 TimToady there you go
20:29 TimToady rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ☃.(.).☃
20:29 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
20:30 TimToady rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m ☄.(.).☃
20:30 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«abc␤»
20:30 TimToady o_O
20:30 TimToady O_o
20:31 icwiener joined #perl6
20:31 sjohnson >_>
20:31 sjohnson <_<
20:32 lichtkind mberends: ping
20:32 TimToady I don't see how both ☄☃ and ☃☄ can work
20:32 sjohnson timtoady:  did you have to customize irssi to behave how you like it?
20:32 TimToady some
20:34 sjohnson did you map ^L to clear the buffer window?
20:34 payload say 'perl6' ~~ m O.*O
20:34 payload rakudo: say 'perl6' ~~ m O.*O
20:34 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«perl6␤»
20:36 payload rakudo: say 'perl6' ~~ m O\O\OO
20:36 payload well :-\
20:36 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf: OUTPUT«pe␤»
20:40 DanielC @seen mberends
20:40 lambdabot mberends is in #perl6. I last heard mberends speak 9h 50m 23s ago.
20:41 DanielC @seen masak
20:41 lambdabot I saw masak leaving #perl6 7h 52m 32s ago, and .
20:42 TimToady sjohnson: no
20:43 TimToady I mapped my page left and page right keys to switch windows
20:43 sjohnson heh
20:44 sjohnson when was that keyboard made?  1912?
20:45 TimToady it's a Lenovo T61
20:45 TimToady it has two extra keys near the arrows
20:46 TimToady I also use them to go left and right in my firefox tabs
20:47 sjohnson imagine you're using Firefox... 10 tabs open, you're on tab 7.  you quickly switch to tab 3, read for a few seconds, then close it.  what tab (ideally) should you be left on?
20:47 sjohnson after tab 3 closes?
20:48 TimToady I almost never close embedded tabs, since my leftward ones are semi-permanent, and the rightmost one the most recent
20:48 TimToady I use the tabs primarily as a stack
20:49 sjohnson i would say in response to my question, ideally you should be left on tab 7, where you started
20:49 sjohnson so you dont have to "click around" to get back to tab 7
20:49 sjohnson (i suppose it would truly be "tab 6")
20:50 TimToady everyone's a UI designer :)
20:50 sjohnson if anyone is reading this and thinking "YES!  I agree!"  then Tab Mix Plus is the extension for you
20:50 sjohnson so far, everytime i show this behaviour to someone in real life, they become a convert
20:51 pmurias joined #perl6
20:51 sjohnson TimToady: what is your main desktop OS of choice?
20:52 sjohnson i like Windows XP the most
20:59 rml` joined #perl6
21:05 TimToady I'm using gnome on ubuntu
21:08 Jedai joined #perl6
21:09 sjohnson thats kind of neet that you can use the OS and have it come bundled with your creation
21:11 d58f37219 joined #perl6
21:14 rml` joined #perl6
21:14 pmurias does ubuntu install perl by default? (they don't even install gcc)
21:17 payload i think its necessary for the boot ^^
21:17 StephenPollei sometimes perl and python get installed due to dependancies even on nondevel machines where gc would never be
21:20 payload python is necessary for gnome-sudoku
21:21 StephenPollei python is needed on fedora redhat for lots of their gui admin tools iirc
21:21 StephenPollei I think perl is needed for lots of other things
21:23 payload kernel for example ^^
21:23 payload find /usr/ -exec grep -H --color '#!.*perl' '{}' ';'
21:24 StephenPollei http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Distro_version_migration_nastiness forked a number of packages to remove unneeded dependencies. totem is the worst (removing gnome-desktop), but we'll also want slimmed down ntp and mtd-utils to remove perl dependency, removing PersonalCopyLite midi patches from SDL_mixer, etc.
21:24 StephenPollei ntp forked to split ntpdate into its own package, removing the perl dependency
21:25 StephenPollei I think the olpc wanted to remove perl, but are having issues doing so
21:25 amoc joined #perl6
21:29 * ruoso decommute &
21:34 Meldrake joined #perl6
21:34 Meldrake whois #Meldrake
21:37 payload is it possible... after snowman operators and snowman and comet braces... is it possible to overload the semicolon ?
21:47 Chillance joined #perl6
21:52 TimToady by itself, that is a meaningless question.  you can't overload something without additional information (arguments, longer token, etc.).  All you could do is hide the standard one
22:07 payload well the intention is to run additional code in each line
22:10 payload counting line-numbers... obfuscate code... return value stuff
22:10 TimToady one would likely do that with semantic modifications to the AST
22:11 sjohnson TimToady: i looked at the layout of your laptop with the page left / right keys
22:11 sjohnson now that i have seen that, i wish all keyboards had that technology
22:11 sjohnson now i deem all standard keyboards useless :(
22:13 sjohnson including this one i bought for 5 bucks
22:13 payload you can move left and right with sooo many keys ^^
22:13 payload and combinations of them
22:13 sjohnson but that key
22:13 sjohnson the peace of mind i would receive
22:14 sjohnson if i can quantify it somehow...
22:14 * payload likes Super+W/A/S/D for window/tab related stuff
22:15 sjohnson what's "super"?
22:15 sjohnson shift?
22:16 payload the key which has often a logo of a well known operating system printed on
22:18 sjohnson I call it WinKey
22:18 sjohnson GNU Hurd key you mean?
22:20 payload yes, exactly ^^
22:22 * antiphase clicks away on his Winkey-free IBM M-type
22:24 payload the none gamers could use WinKey+H/J/K/L
22:24 payload sure with additional shift, alt and control for different situations
22:25 sjohnson payload: what do you use?
22:25 sjohnson your version reply said Purple IRC
22:25 sjohnson i don't think there is such a thing :)
22:26 payload pidgin ^^
22:26 sjohnson oh
22:26 sjohnson that makes sense then
22:26 sjohnson libpurple
22:26 payload it is modularized to libpurple
22:26 payload yes
22:26 decasm left #perl6
22:26 sjohnson lol Purple IRC
22:26 sjohnson that's cute
22:26 sjohnson i couldn't get pidgin to do irc.. i will try again now
22:27 skids_ joined #perl6
22:27 payload it's easy. pidgin isn't the best choice for xmpp but the best compromise for using everything imho
22:28 sjohnson i use pidgin for my IMing on Windows XP
22:29 sjohnson_ joined #perl6
22:29 sjohnson_ heh
22:29 sjohnson_ this is kinda cute
22:29 sjohnson_ supports UTF-8 out of the box
22:30 sjohnson_ IRC!
22:30 antiphase
22:31 sjohnson i dont have that unicode character
22:31 payload it's the snowman brace
22:32 payload ☃ foo ☃           foo between snowman braces
22:32 sjohnson_ what do i have to do in Windows XP to get these cool braces you guys use
22:32 sjohnson_ haha i see it
22:32 sjohnson_ that's very cute
22:32 sjohnson_ unicode truly has all
22:46 payload :-\ Tags.pm isn't the most readable code
22:47 payload well, it isn't easy i want to say... readable for sure
22:49 viklund_ payload: are you looking at November?
22:50 payload masak/web/lib/Tags.pm
22:50 viklund_ ah
22:51 justatheory joined #perl6
22:53 viklund_ it's a nice piece of code
22:54 DanielC @seen mberends
22:54 lambdabot mberends is in #perl6. I last heard mberends speak 12h 4m 15s ago.
22:54 DanielC @seen masak
22:54 lambdabot I saw masak leaving #perl6 10h 6m 12s ago, and .
22:54 DanielC :-(
22:55 payload but it's hard to follow for someone who doesn't know some details of perl 6 ^^
22:56 viklund_ is it really that different from perl 5?
22:56 payload well i dont know perl 5
22:57 sjohnson payload: ... learn!
22:57 payload ^^
22:57 viklund_ ahh, then I can see how it can be tricky
22:59 payload what does the _%c?_ in    sub ($c?, *%attrs) {      mean?
22:59 DanielC @karma
22:59 lambdabot You have a karma of 11
22:59 Whiteknight joined #perl6
23:00 viklund_ payload: the questionmark means that it's optional
23:00 viklund_ $c is an optional argument
23:01 viklund_ the * infront of the %attrs makes the %attrs slurp the rest of the parameters.
23:01 viklund_ ouch
23:02 payload joined #perl6
23:02 viklund_ hello again ;)
23:02 payload pidgin is crashy :(
23:03 hercynium joined #perl6
23:05 DanielC Does anyone know how to pass a parameter to inline PIR in Rakudo?
23:05 _Chillance_ joined #perl6
23:05 Tene DanielC: explain?
23:05 viklund_ DanielC: find_lex
23:05 viklund_ ?
23:05 _Chillance_ joined #perl6
23:05 DanielC viklund_: Ok.
23:05 DanielC Tene: You can insert inline PIR in Perl 6 with Rakudo.
23:05 Tene Right.
23:06 DanielC Tene: But that feature is only useful if you can pass a parameter to the PIR code.
23:06 viklund_ I'm grabbing vars from the lexical environment with " $P0 = find_lex "$string""
23:06 DanielC I was trying to figure out how to do that.
23:06 viklund_ DanielC: it's not a parameter as such
23:06 Tene DanielC: explain what you want to do by "pass a parameter"?
23:06 Tene use a lexical variable?  invoke it as a subroutine?
23:06 DanielC Tene: What viklund_ said.
23:06 Tene Okay, yes.
23:06 DanielC :)
23:07 viklund_ rakudo: my $str = 'asdf'; Q:PIR { $P0 = find_lex '$str' }
23:07 p6eval rakudo 86aeaf:  ( no output )
23:07 DanielC viklund_: Thanks. I didn't know what to call it.
23:07 viklund_ but I still wonder if there's anyway to change encoding on a string in PIR...
23:07 DanielC viklund_: So, the input has to go into a PMC variable? How do you get the string out of $P0 ?
23:08 viklund_ $S0 = $P0
23:08 DanielC thanks
23:08 viklund_ it autounboxes ;)
23:08 DanielC cool
23:08 viklund_ are you bringing the md5 to rakudo-land?
23:09 DanielC viklund_: Would that be useful?
23:09 DanielC I was thinking of writing a blog post about Q:PIR. I am happy to make it the md5 function.
23:10 viklund_ DanielC: yes, we need a checksum in November for storing passwords, md5 is better than plaintext ;)
23:10 DanielC viklund_: Ok. No problem!
23:10 viklund_ and later, we can convert it to some other one that parrot has support for
23:11 DanielC Parrot has support for sha1 too.
23:11 viklund_ masak has talked about this for a long time, and when I saw your md5sum code I thought, "yes we got it"!
23:11 DanielC :-)
23:11 viklund_ DanielC: I would guess that it's really simple to just switch
23:11 DanielC Probably.
23:11 snarkyboojum joined #perl6
23:11 DanielC I'll do MD5 first, and we can see about switching afterwards.
23:13 viklund_ sounds good
23:15 DanielC http://pastebin.com/m6626d419  <--  Help
23:15 DanielC Error:  Statement not terminated properly at line 10, near "return $ch"
23:15 viklund_ you need a semi after the closing }
23:15 viklund_ on the Q:PIR
23:16 DanielC thanks
23:16 DanielC It works now.
23:20 donaldh joined #perl6
23:21 viklund_ time for bed
23:21 viklund_ DanielC: If you want to check out how to use Q:PIR, look in src/setting in rakudo
23:21 viklund_ you have several examples there
23:21 DanielC Ok, thanks.
23:22 viklund_ good night
23:22 DanielC night
23:31 kane__ joined #perl6
23:33 DanielC @seen pmichaud
23:33 lambdabot pmichaud is in #perl6. I last heard pmichaud speak 3h 19m 42s ago.
23:36 DanielC pmichaud: ping?
23:41 DanielC @tell pmichaud  sprintf doesn't like being inside Q:PIR {   }  see http://pastebin.com/m40db8f
23:41 lambdabot Consider it noted.
23:43 ihrd joined #perl6
23:44 ihrd left #perl6
23:49 justatheory joined #perl6
23:49 buubot joined #perl6
23:49 sparc joined #perl6
23:52 H1N1 joined #Perl6
23:54 lichtkind night

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