Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-06-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:11 meppl good night
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01:28 azawawi hi
01:31 azawawi std: my $line = prompt "should i be loaded in another.pad?";
01:31 p6eval std 27113: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 36m␤»
01:35 azawawi TimToady: thanks for the prompt() fix. szabgab will be happier now :)
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01:49 pugs_svn r27114 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] version 0.60 has the latest STD which fixes undeclared prompt() among other fixes. TimToady++
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02:19 twigil rakudo: say "hi twigil".perl;
02:20 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«"hi twigil"␤»
02:20 twigil rakudo: say "hi".WHAT;
02:20 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
02:25 twigil lambdabot: compare 2 3
02:26 twigil mildew: say "hi"
02:26 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 4, near "$LANG is"␤  (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 5, near "$PKGDECL is"␤   (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected
02:26 p6eval ..at…
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02:30 twigil @compare 2 3
02:30 lambdabot Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "2"
02:30 twigil @type 2
02:31 lambdabot forall t. (Num t) => t
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02:39 Minimiscience How do I create an IO object in Rakudo that supports the .lines method?
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02:57 twigil Minimiscience: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/5f73ca8ce128a71c8264dff7327beb82116c8ea1/src/classes/IO.pir
02:57 twigil maybe this can help you
03:02 Minimiscience How do I create one of those?
03:07 Minimiscience Let me rephrase: How do I instantiate an object of the IO class described in the given link?  It doesn't say.
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03:14 Minimiscience It really does not bode well that this channel gets less traffic than #lojban.
03:18 twigil Minimiscience: as far as I understood, we have $*IN, $*OUT and $*ERR in rakudo
03:18 Minimiscience How do I create an IO object for a file?
03:19 twigil my $fh = open(@*ARGS[0], :r); # :r = read mode
03:19 twigil my $line = 1;
03:19 twigil for =$fh {
03:19 twigil say $line++ ~ " $_";
03:19 twigil }
03:19 twigil $fh.close();
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04:31 TimToady twigil: BTW, =$fh has changed to $fh.lines
04:32 twigil TimToady: thanks. is it written in some doc?
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04:35 TimToady http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/IO.html
04:37 TimToady bbl &
04:40 pugs_svn r27115 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] Removed obsolete method
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05:06 azawawi TimToady: redspans is not working as expected since revision 26975, please see http://pastebin.com/m30b2d582
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06:33 moritz_ rakudo: say [+] 1..5
06:34 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«15␤»
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06:40 moritz_ nqp: say(chars("abc"))
06:40 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub chars␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 3 (EVAL_4:5)␤»
06:40 moritz_ nqp: say("abc".chars)
06:40 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'chars' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 12 (EVAL_4:7)␤»
06:41 moritz_ nqp: say("abc".bytes)
06:41 p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'bytes' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 12 (EVAL_4:7)␤»
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06:49 azawawi moritz_: hi
06:50 pugs_svn r27116 | azawawi++ | [redspans] it is working again with STD
06:51 moritz_ hi azawawi
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07:19 azawawi std:
07:19 azawawi std:
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07:28 azawawi moritz_: ping
07:28 moritz_ azawawi: pong
07:28 azawawi moritz_: STD->parse does not return a parser when the source text has only spaces, see http://pastebin.com/m655d072d
07:29 moritz_ azawawi: and why do you tell me? ;-)
07:29 azawawi moritz_: thought you had an idea why is that happening :)
07:30 azawawi TimToady: STD->parse does not return a parser when the string is empty, see http://pastebin.com/m655d072d
07:30 azawawi moritz: :)
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07:37 pugs_svn r27117 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] version 0.61 fixes a redspans bug that caused output to be invalid
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08:00 DanielC @seen mberends
08:00 lambdabot Last time I saw mberends was when I left ##english, ##freebsd, ##hrg, ##logic, #arch-haskell, #concatenative, #darcs, #dreamlinux-es, #friendly-coders, #functionaljava, #gentoo-haskell, #gentoo-uy, #
08:00 lambdabot ghc, #haskell, #haskell-blah, #haskell-books, #haskell-freebsd, #haskell-in-depth, #haskell-overflow, #haskell-soc, #haskell.cz, #haskell.de, #haskell.dut, #haskell.es, #haskell.fi, #haskell.fr, #
08:00 lambdabot haskell.hr, #haskell.it, #haskell.jp, #haskell.no, #haskell.ru, #haskell.se, #haskell_ru, #jhc, #jtiger, #macosx, #macosxdev, #novalang, #perl6, #rosettacode, #scala, #scannedinavian, #unicycling, #
08:00 lambdabot xmonad and #yi 14d 3h 9m 27s ago.
08:00 DanielC wow
08:00 masak lambdabot: showoff!
08:00 masak howdy, buffercamels.
08:00 DanielC I wanted to speak with mberends about the module-lib project.
08:01 DanielC I won't be around next week, starting Saturday, and I didn't want him to think that I've disappeared.
08:01 masak I'm given to understand that he is, or has been, moving house lately.
08:01 meppl if mberends speaks all these languages .cz .de .dut .es .fu .fr .hr .it .jp .no .ru .se .ru
08:01 DanielC yeah
08:01 masak DanielC: you can leave a message with phenny.
08:02 DanielC I think I might do that. How do you do that? Just "phenny: tell meberends ..." ?
08:02 masak aye.
08:02 masak phenny++
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08:02 moritz_ or write an email
08:02 moritz_ such a retarded technique ;-)
08:03 DanielC moritz_: I'd prefer email. Can you give me his address?
08:03 masak in South Korea, only old people use email.
08:03 meppl do they like jabber?
08:04 masak I would think so, yes.
08:04 moritz_ DanielC: mberends@flashmail.com
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08:04 DanielC moriz_: thanks
08:10 masak moritz_++ # uploading JSON::Tiny to CPAN
08:11 moritz_ masak: we're having hot discussions about it on #toolchain
08:12 * masak goes there
08:12 masak care to give a summary?
08:12 DanielC Where is #toolchain ?
08:12 masak DanielC: on irc.perl.org
08:12 DanielC Is JSON::Tiny based on Parrot?
08:12 DanielC thanks
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08:13 moritz_ masak: 1) "you suck, how dare you poison the Perl 5 namespace JSON::Tiny"
08:13 masak moritz_: that's ridiculous.
08:13 moritz_ masak: not quite
08:13 masak Perl 6 is Perl. CPAN is for Perl.
08:14 moritz_ masak: people now can't upload a Perl 5 module named JSON::Tiny to CPAN
08:14 masak so what?
08:14 moritz_ Alias++ suggested to upload it as a dev release
08:14 masak neither can they upload a Perl 4 module where a Perl 5 one already exists.
08:14 moritz_ so it won't clobber any Perl 5 namespace
08:14 masak why is that even an issue?
08:15 masak why should Perl 6 modules take care not to "clobber" namespaces?
08:15 masak sounds like subservience to me.
08:15 moritz_ because the CPAN indexer can't deal with Perl 6 yet
08:15 masak oh, tosh.
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08:17 moritz_ making that obvious was kind of the point of my action
08:18 masak yes, I understand that. kudos.
08:18 masak (soft revolution)++
08:18 masak this came out a bit strange: http://search.cpan.org/~moritz/JSON-Tiny-0.1.1/lib/JSON/Tiny.pm
08:19 moritz_ that's the problem with cpan6, it tries to be a hard/full revolution all at once
08:19 moritz_ masak: I know
08:19 masak looking at it, I feel a bit like the guy on the right, with a question mark in his head. :)
08:19 masak moritz_: exactly.
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08:30 DanielC Fudge...  I think my disk is dying.
08:30 DanielC This is the second time I have to run fsck on it in the last 7 days.
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08:57 viklund Good Morning!
08:57 moritz_ oh hai viklund
08:58 viklund is rakudo broken?
08:58 viklund sry
08:58 viklund misspelled PERL6LIB
08:58 azawawi moritz_: std says 'panic: unexpected package name &JSON::Tiny' (neither an error nor warning) and continues...
08:59 azawawi std: module JSON::Tiny { }
08:59 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«panic: unexpected package name &JSON::Tiny␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
09:02 azawawi std: module JSON { };
09:02 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
09:02 azawawi std: module JSON::T { };
09:02 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«panic: unexpected package name &JSON::T␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
09:03 azawawi # an STD bug :)
09:03 azawawi std: module JSON-T { }
09:03 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
09:03 azawawi std: module Foo::Bar;
09:03 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«panic: unexpected package name &Foo::Bar␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
09:07 azawawi TimToady: 'module Foo::Bar;' causes a "panic: unexpected package name &Foo::Bar". 'module Foo' and 'module Foo-Bar' works. maybe it should be a stderr warning?
09:11 azawawi so what's the difference between a perl 6 module and a perl 6 package?
09:15 viklund I'm thinking about profiling perl6
09:16 viklund since the pir-files get annotated
09:16 viklund do you think that a ballpark estimate would be possible by post-processing the pir-files
09:16 viklund and adding some kind of print statement with linenumber and timestamp for each .annotate
09:17 viklund would give an output that is usable for profiling?
09:19 viklund I'm thinking it's the simplest thing that can possibly work (would of course be nice to see the call-stack as well)
09:20 viklund the advantage of this approach is that I can do it ;)
09:20 viklund one program to post-process the pir-files and one to analyze the output
09:28 viklund phenny: tell pmichaud could you just tell me if there is any point in doing this: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-06-18#i_1248789
09:28 phenny viklund: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
09:28 viklund thx phenny
09:30 viklund phenny: tell viklund something
09:30 phenny You can tell yourself that.
09:30 viklund ok
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09:35 masak phenny++
09:35 viklund indeed
09:36 viklund masak: do you think it could work for profiling
09:37 masak viklund: possibly.
09:37 masak the print statements will affect the timings, though.
09:37 viklund of course they will
09:37 masak would be nice to do something less invasive.
09:37 viklund hopefully it's a constant factor for each line
09:37 masak yes.
09:37 viklund running perl5 under dprofpp makes the program slower as well
09:38 viklund you can't get away from that I believe
09:38 azawawi viklund: do u mean you're going to inject timing code between annotated lines?
09:39 viklund I would guess that I would add a print statement right after the .annotate line
09:39 viklund smth like
09:39 viklund say "$timestamp $linenumber"
09:40 viklund (but in PIR of course)
09:40 viklund then I'll write a script to analyze the output
09:40 azawawi viklun: ofcourse, how about between subs invocations; that would be more useful
09:41 viklund azawawi: yes, but that would be more difficult ;)
09:41 masak viklund: my general comment is simply 'kudos, and good luck'.
09:41 azawawi viklund: let me see
09:41 viklund i'm not sure wheter it's any point though
09:42 masak only one way to find out. :)
09:43 azawawi viklund: i was thinking of doing PIR/Perl6 annotation in Padre; maybe i could help
09:43 azawawi viklund: i already started by adding a "Generate PIR" from Perl 6
09:43 viklund I don't really know what these .annotate lines do
09:43 viklund nice
09:46 viklund azawawi: to put a timing between sub invocations you need to analyze both the perl-file and the pir-file (if it's a postprocessing step)
09:46 viklund line-numbers only needs the pir-file
09:46 viklund hence very simple
09:47 azawawi viklund: i was thinking of 'invoke_method foo()' in PIR or something like that...
09:48 viklund azawawi: ?
09:48 * azawawi examines some PIR output
09:49 azawawi viklund: when you call foo() on a annotated line; it can surround it with timing code.
09:50 viklund yes, but how do you detect foo()?
09:50 twigil rakudo: say $*IN.lines
09:50 azawawi viklund: .annotate "line", 7\n$P35 = "foo"()
09:50 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich!Heimat bist du großer Söhne,Volk, begnadet für das Schöne,vielgerühmtes Österreich,vielgerühmtes Österreich!Heiß umfehdet, wild umstrittenliegst dem Erdteil du inmitten,einem starken
09:50 p6eval ..Herzen …
09:50 twigil oh
09:51 viklund azawawi: yes, but you need to check the perl-file to find all the methods/subs
09:51 masak twigil: it's the Austrian national anthem.
09:51 viklund right?
09:52 viklund I mean, the method/sub-names
09:52 azawawi viklund: actually that would be easy with STD->parse() and finding the method-call
09:52 viklund ye
09:53 azawawi viklund: a sub foo { } is a routine_def.+?ident
09:53 viklund yes
09:53 viklund I've never checked out STD though
09:53 viklund maybe I should
09:53 azawawi viklund: you can access it through my module Syntax::Highlight::Perl6
09:53 azawawi viklund: in plain p5
09:54 viklund my point was merely that just adding the info that looking for .annotate lines in the PIR is trivial
09:54 azawawi viklund: and then call ->tokens to get the array of parsed tree strings...
09:54 azawawi viklund: yeah, what about starting with that and then we can extend it to this..
09:54 viklund oh noes, programming in perl5 when not at work ;p
09:55 viklund azawawi: sounds like a good plan, I'll wait for pmichaud comment first though
09:56 azawawi viklund: see this http://pastebin.com/m443db834
09:58 viklund azawawi: yes, some PIR, what should I look at
09:59 lichtkind joined #perl6
09:59 azawawi viklund: take a look at line 63
09:59 viklund yes, the call to foo
10:00 azawawi viklund: it is annotated to line 7 where foo is called and line 2 where foo is declared
10:00 viklund which in this case happens to have an .annotate just before and just after
10:01 viklund I think it always is an .annotate just after
10:01 viklund but I have examples without .annotate on the line before
10:01 viklund if you have a sub with arguments for example
10:02 * azawawi goes back to hacking Perl6 & Padre then :)
10:03 viklund ;)
10:03 viklund a cal to say is also always followed by .annotate
10:04 viklund call*
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10:09 lichtkind szabgab: ping
10:10 szabgab pong
10:13 lichtkind szabgab: i just read http://szabgab.com/blog/2009/06/1245228625.html and think you have an mistake in there
10:14 lichtkind szabgab: say "joe@names.org"; doeas interpolate because ":qq         :double         Interpolate with :s, :a, :h, :f, :c, :b"
10:14 sri_kraih_ joined #perl6
10:14 szabgab it should say does NOT ...
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10:15 szabgab sorry what ?
10:16 viklund rakudo: my @names = <as df>; say "@names"
10:16 szabgab rakudo: say "joe@names.org"
10:16 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«@names␤»
10:16 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«joe@names.org␤»
10:16 viklund rakudo: my @names = <as df>; say "{@names}"
10:16 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«as df␤»
10:16 lichtkind szabgab: double quote does interpolate arrays
10:16 szabgab in perl 5 yes
10:16 szabgab not in perl 6
10:16 szabgab at least not in rakudo
10:18 lichtkind szabgab: right how you demonstrated, but synopses demand otherwise if i read themm correctly
10:18 szabgab I donno, anyone ?
10:19 viklund lichtkind: From S02: "Bare array, hash, and subroutine variables may I<never> be interpolated."
10:20 viklund line 2860
10:20 viklund that's in double-quotish strings
10:21 lichtkind viklund: so ":qq         :double         Interpolate with :s, :a, :h, :f, :c, :b" means only if there surrounded by {} ?
10:22 viklund I don't know, where is that quote from?
10:22 lichtkind viklund: from S02 search for : Generalized quotes may now take adverbs
10:22 viklund I saw it, line 2772
10:23 lichtkind i dont have line numbers here
10:24 viklund the way I read that is that qq:"@array" should interpolate the array
10:24 twigil what does the undescore after a nick mean?
10:24 viklund perhaps qq"@array"
10:24 viklund I'm not sure about the adverb usage
10:24 moritz_ viklund: qq"@array[]"
10:25 viklund rakudo: say qq"test"
10:25 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«test␤»
10:25 viklund rakudo: my @t = <a b>; say qq"@t"
10:25 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«@t␤»
10:25 viklund rakudo: my @t = <a b>; say qq"@t[]"
10:25 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«@t[]␤»
10:25 moritz_ but rakudo doesn't do array interpolation yet anyway
10:25 viklund NYI?
10:25 viklund ah
10:26 viklund but that call should interpolate, right?
10:26 moritz_ right.
10:26 lichtkind moritz_: i remember arrays where interpolated only with final []
10:27 lichtkind moritz_: right? :)
10:27 viklund rakudo: my @array=< lichtkind viklund >; say "hello @array[0]"
10:27 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«hello @array[0]␤»
10:27 viklund I think that should work though
10:27 lichtkind viklund: yes should :)
10:27 lichtkind szabgab: so truth was in the middle of our initial statements :)
10:27 moritz_ lichtkind: right
10:28 moritz_ anything except scalars is only interpolated if it ends in a postcircumfix
10:28 * lichtkind have that correct in p6tut part 3
10:28 moritz_ ie my $x = a; "$x.uc" will give "a.uc", while "$x.uc()" will give "A"
10:28 lichtkind i mean
10:28 * lichtkind has to correct in p6tut part 3
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10:57 masak rakudo: class Failure is also { method foo {say "OH HAI"} }; .foo
10:57 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
11:00 moritz_ new in Perl 6: extensinble undef!
11:05 masak rakudo: class Failure is also { method defined { True } }; say .defined
11:05 p6eval rakudo 9dc941:  ( no output )
11:05 * masak snickers
11:06 masak that one gives a bus error on my box.
11:06 rindolf masak: bus error?
11:06 masak rindolf: bus error.
11:06 rindolf masak: isn't it a kind of hardware failure?
11:07 masak rindolf: no, it's another term for 'segmentation fault'.
11:07 rindolf masak: ah, OK.
11:14 moritz_ it's what happens when a program tries to use memory outside of its address range
11:14 masak and what's 'segmentation fault'?
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11:15 DanielC masak: The program tried to write to a chunk of memory where it wasn't supposed to.
11:15 DanielC masak: It wrote to a memory segment where it shouldn't have.
11:16 DanielC masak: Do you know C ?
11:16 masak DanielC: to a point.
11:16 DanielC In C, if you use malloc wrong, you'll probably get a segmentation fault.
11:16 masak ok, so it seems to me that a bus error and a segmentation fault are at least in the same ballpark.
11:17 moritz_ aye
11:17 pmurias both being roughly eqivalent to "something went wrong"
11:17 moritz_ both are errors on memory access
11:19 masak rakudo: class Failure is also { method perl { "HOLA!" } }; say .perl
11:19 p6eval rakudo 9dc941:  ( no output )
11:19 masak seems the problem is in overriding methods that were defined already.
11:20 moritz_ "no output" is wrong though
11:20 masak moritz_: yes. that's what I mean.
11:20 moritz_ ah yes, it's a segfault
11:20 masak "no output" here means that a bus error occurred.
11:20 masak rakudo: class A { method foo { 1 } }; class A is also { method foo { 2 } }; A.new.foo
11:20 p6eval rakudo 9dc941:  ( no output )
11:20 masak ah.
11:20 masak and it's not just PIR methods.
11:20 moritz_ which, for whatever reasons, is printed to the console, not to IRC
11:20 * masak submits rakudobug
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11:21 moritz_ the latter doesn't cause any errors
11:23 moritz_ viklund: if you haven't noticed yet: JSON::Tiny is on CPAN, http://search.cpan.org/~moritz/JSON-Tiny-0.1.2_1/ ;-)
11:25 moritz_ when is rakudo release day? today? tomorrow?
11:26 masak on a pmichaud Thursday, I'd guess.
11:41 masak I'm still suffering from #66450. I regret that I haven't taken the time to investigate/complaing about that one more before the release.
11:42 masak s/complaing/complain/
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11:47 masak hm, I can no longer reproduce #66450... that's good news.
11:47 masak but I still have a variant of the problem on feather.
11:47 masak oh well, closing this one and possibly opening a new one for the feather problem.
11:56 viklund moritz_: yes, i saw
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11:59 Matt-W Hello, wonderful Perl6ers
11:59 rindolf Hello wonderful Matt-W
12:00 jnthn oh hai
12:00 viklund rakudo: "olleh".reverse.say
12:00 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«olleh␤»
12:00 * jnthn is at a net cafe in Rome but not for long.
12:00 viklund greeting jnthn
12:00 moritz_ rakudo: "hello".flip.say
12:00 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«olleh␤»
12:00 viklund moritz_: thx
12:00 viklund ??
12:01 jnthn So, whas news?
12:01 viklund rakudo: <o l l e h >.reverse.say
12:01 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«hello␤»
12:01 viklund rakudo: <o l l e h >.flip.say
12:01 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«h e l l o␤»
12:02 moritz_ wtf?
12:02 moritz_ rakudo: say "ab".flip
12:02 Matt-W viklund: reverse is now for lists, flip is for strings
12:02 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«ba␤»
12:02 moritz_ ah
12:02 moritz_ I know, but I mis-read my own first example
12:03 viklund yes
12:03 Matt-W jnthn: During a boring meeting, I thought how much more fun I could be having writing something in Perl 6. Does that count as news?
12:04 viklund why doesn't "ba".flip.say print "ab"?
12:04 jnthn Not news, just nice to hear. :-)
12:04 viklund rakudo: "ba".flip.say
12:04 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«ab␤»
12:04 viklund it does
12:04 viklund I'm also a bit slow
12:04 viklund ;p
12:04 viklund oh, well
12:04 viklund lunch &
12:05 moritz_ jnthn: not much news in terms of rakudo
12:05 Matt-W jnthn: Unfortunately I would've been having more fun if I was writing something in COBOL, I think
12:05 jnthn epic boredom
12:05 moritz_ jnthn: I uploaded a Perl 6 package to CPAN and watched the people shout
12:05 jnthn fun!
12:06 jnthn Did they shout loudly?
12:06 moritz_ yes, on #toolchain
12:07 moritz_ I'll write a mail to modules@perl.org soon, and see how they react
12:07 Matt-W Did you shout back?
12:07 moritz_ no, I stayed friendly ;-)
12:07 moritz_ actually they were also polite
12:09 jnthn Hopefully a good solution can be worked out.
12:10 moritz_ I hope so too
12:11 Matt-W yes
12:17 ascent_ moritz_: got any answer from Mark Overmeer (cpan6.org) ?
12:17 jnthn OK. Seems like things are bubbling along nicely. I will be back to work a week on Monday.
12:18 moritz_ ascent_: yes
12:19 moritz_ there are basically three problems with cpan6
12:19 moritz_ 1) it doesn't work yet
12:19 moritz_ 2) it's not evolutionary. If you implement 30% of it, you still can't use it
12:19 Matt-W jnthn: Have fun!
12:20 moritz_ 3) it doesn't solve some of the problems that cpan solves (indexing, extracting Pod etc)
12:21 jnthn Matt-W: thanks!
12:23 jnthn o/
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12:23 ascent_ moritz_: maybe we should discuss it on some mailing list, grouping ideas and trying to write project basics? or maybe there was that discussion and I missed it.
12:23 moritz_ ascent_: there was a discussion on p6l
12:23 ruoso joined #perl6
12:24 ascent_ moritz_: ok, I'll search for it and read.
12:25 moritz_ actually I didn't read all of it, because much was also focused on different problems
12:25 moritz_ like, how to create binary distributions
12:26 ruoso Hello
12:39 masak hi, jnthn!
12:39 masak how's the vacation going?
12:39 rfordinal joined #perl6
12:47 Matt-W masak o/
12:48 masak Matt-W: OH HAI
12:53 skids joined #perl6
12:54 masak Matt-W: what's new with Form?
12:55 Matt-W masak: Nothing, unfortunately
12:55 Matt-W I am a bad man
12:55 masak non sequitur, but fair enough. :_
12:55 masak :P
12:55 Matt-W Maybe I will do some tonight
12:55 synth joined #perl6
12:55 masak yes, please do!
12:55 Matt-W Wish I could get work to fund some Perl 6 work for me to do
12:55 Matt-W I'm always in the mood for it when I'm at work
12:56 masak maybe I'll do some Druid SVG tonight.
12:56 masak I saw a projection of a cube today, and started fantasizing about Druid in real SVG.
12:56 Matt-W I should stop being afraid of the complexity of number formatting and just make some of it work
12:57 masak aye.
12:57 masak don't get crippled by Design Dread.
12:59 Matt-W If I can just get some simple decimals up and running that'd be a nice step forward
12:59 Matt-W lining themselves up into neat columns
12:59 PerlJam greets #perl6
12:59 Matt-W hi PerlJam
13:00 masak ahoj PerlJam
13:01 PerlJam Matt-W: where's the code for Form?
13:01 Matt-W github.com/mattw/form
13:03 PerlJam Matt-W: have you blogged about it?
13:03 Matt-W no
13:03 Matt-W I blogged about some grammar things which I learned while writing it
13:03 Matt-W but not about it in particular
13:03 Matt-W not yet, anyway. I will do.
13:03 PerlJam Seems like a good way to get other people  to help you hack on it if you write a blog that shows where it's at and how to start using it (or where it needs hacking)
13:04 masak indeed.
13:04 Matt-W Yes
13:04 Matt-W And get it on Planet Perl 6, too
13:05 PerlJam btw, anyone know of an updated perl6 syntax file for vim that understands $foo-bar-baz  ?
13:05 Matt-W Mine seems to
13:05 PerlJam All my identifiers stop at the first -
13:05 Matt-W hmm
13:05 PerlJam (well, the coloration does  :)
13:06 Matt-W don't think mine do
13:06 Matt-W But I don't use many variable identifiers that long
13:06 Matt-W and method names don't highlight, so...
13:06 PerlJam and it's starting to get annoying as I look at more and more code that uses -
13:06 moritz_ PerlJam: the one from literal++ works fine here
13:06 masak dang, I should start using that one.
13:07 masak I do most of my Perl 6 coding in vim.
13:07 PerlJam moritz_: where's it at?
13:07 moritz_ PerlJam: http://github.com/hinrik/vim-perl
13:07 PerlJam gracias
13:08 PerlJam github is like the new CPAN :)
13:09 Matt-W no not really
13:09 Matt-W it's just a good git service
13:09 Matt-W the new CPAN will be rather different :)
13:10 moritz_ I hope that the new CPAN will be just the old CPAN, but improved
13:10 masak I'm very skeptical to the concept of a 'new CPAN'.
13:11 Matt-W I'd like a new CPAN.pm
13:11 Matt-W CPAN itself is in fairly reasonable shape
13:11 PerlJam masak: why is that?
13:11 moritz_ masak: speaking of which, having proto installing Perl 6 modules from cpan.org would be great ;-)
13:11 PerlJam Matt-W: CPAN needs more meta-data for perl6, but I agree :)
13:12 Matt-W PerlJam: Obviously some extensions needed for Perl 6 support
13:12 masak PerlJam: it seems to me that many people think that tearing down everything and starting over is a good idea, and that calling it 'the new CPAN' would somehow make it just as successful as the old one.
13:12 Matt-W Pod, for starters
13:12 masak moritz_: that could be arranged. :)
13:12 Matt-W moritz_: sure, you could write that :P
13:12 * Matt-W hides
13:13 masak moritz_: I'll make some attempts soonish.
13:13 PerlJam masak: perhaps. Or you could look at it as the existing CPAN was the "one to throw away" and that the new CPAN will build on lessons learned  (I'm optimistic regarding my fellow humans :)
13:14 moritz_ PerlJam: problem is that *we* didn't build CPAN, so *we* didn't learn the lessons. Maybe Jarkko could build a new, better CPAN, but I bet he's either too busy or not convinced that we need a new one
13:17 Matt-W I don't see a problem with extending CPAN to have the idea of modules being in Perl 6 or Perl 5, and learning to handle Pod. I don't see why that wouldn't be sufficient.
13:17 DanielC Matt-W: You mean it won't?  ;-)
13:17 Matt-W No
13:17 Matt-W I mean as far as I can see, it would be
13:18 PerlJam Matt-W: you mean, Perl 5, Perl 6, or Parrot right?
13:18 FurnaceBoy joined #perl6
13:19 DanielC As long as you can add additional metadata, I don't see why CPAN could not hold Perl 5, Perl 6 and Parrot modules. Then again, what do I know?
13:19 PerlJam DanielC: or PHP or Ruby or Haskell or C or ...
13:20 * PerlJam tests everyones hot button  :)
13:20 DanielC PerlJam: There are those who might object (personally *I* don't care).
13:22 masak me neither. but there's a "What CPAN is not" document out there that does.
13:22 DanielC yes
13:23 alester joined #perl6
13:23 DanielC So it's better to assume that "CPAN 6" or whatever, will not carry PHP and Ruby modules.
13:23 masak depends on who builds the CPAN 6 or whatever.
13:23 PerlJam indeed
13:23 lichtkind moritz_: things like infix and quote are they called macro adverbs or how?
13:26 skids Not sure there's a name for the "infix" in "infix:<...>".  It's just an identifier, albiet one that has reserved meaning.
13:26 masak skids: S02 calls them 'category'.
13:26 PerlJam I get the feeling (and I could be completely wrong) that if TimToady were revamping CPAN for perl 6 that he would pun it to be the "comprehensive programmer's archive network" so that it could work for any language.
13:27 masak PerlJam: thing is, again, that neither we nor TimToady are running CPAN.
13:27 PerlJam yep.
13:28 PerlJam (I just wish more people had the TimToady nature :)
13:28 DanielC And the best way to kill a volunteer effort is to start telling them what to do.
13:28 skids masask: cool.  The whole "infix:<...>" construct does have a name.... "extended identifier"
13:28 lichtkind skids , masak or operator scope?
13:28 masak skids: oh, I didn't know that.
13:28 masak lichtkind: sorry?
13:29 lichtkind masak: you said category, but s02 calles them also operator scope
13:29 masak lichtkind: I took 'category' from S02:3752.
13:30 lichtkind masak: how you find linenumbers?
13:30 masak lichtkind: if you read the .pod files, it's easy.
13:30 masak lichtkind: if you read the HTML, View Source and look for anchors.
13:30 skids The anchors have been removed.
13:30 masak really? why?
13:31 skids I think because they were really hosing up browsers?
13:31 PerlJam crazy
13:31 skids POD needs an explicit invisible anchor directive, really.
13:32 masak why in the would would anchors hose up browsers?
13:33 skids I don't know if that was why.  I do know they made text searching the HTML even worse than it is now.
13:34 masak too bad. it was convenient to be able to link to the line number anchors.
13:34 Matt-W PerlJam: once you extend to two languages, I would expect it to be easier to add the third if one would wish to. I'm not sure it's the place for Parrot things though.
13:35 skids Line numbers really aren't the best way to do it anyway, so I'm not really broken up about it.  If someone were to provide a way to name paragraphs in pod, I'd personally go through and put anchors in by hand.
13:35 skids (We do need a replacement,)
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14:04 masak rakudo: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s, @i) { my $res = ""; for @i { $res ~= substr($s, $_, 1) }; $res }; say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7,2,9,4,-1]
14:04 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«WOW RAD␤»
14:05 moritz_ ???
14:05 masak :)
14:06 moritz_ rakudo: sub postcirumfix:<[ ]>() { }; my @a = 1, 2, 3; say @a[0]
14:06 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:06 moritz_ so it's a sub that's used as fallback if the method dispatch fails?
14:06 masak I have no idea.
14:06 moritz_ rakudo: sub postcirumfix:<[ ]>() { }; "foo"[3]
14:06 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
14:06 masak I didn't even reflect on the fact that I didn't write 'multi'.
14:07 [particle] isn't it multi by default?
14:08 masak I don't know.
14:08 moritz_ [particle]: only if there's a proto declared
14:08 [particle] right.
14:08 [particle] so, the question is: are all builtin ops proto by default?
14:08 moritz_ yes
14:09 [particle] then there you go, multi not needed.
14:09 moritz_ but still postcircumfix should be a method, no?
14:10 [particle] rakudo: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s: @i) { my $res = ""; for @i { $res ~= substr($s, $_, 1) }; $res }; say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7,2,9,4,-1]
14:10 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected IDENTIFIER ('self')␤   in file 'EVAL_24' line 102␤too many arguments passed (2) - 1 params expected␤in sub postcircumfix:[ ] (/tmp/4NJRkuTmfe:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/4NJRkuTmfe:2)␤»
14:10 [particle] rakudo: method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s: @i) { my $res = ""; for @i { $res ~= substr($s, $_, 1) }; $res }; say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7,2,9,4,-1]
14:10 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«WOW RAD␤»
14:10 [particle] oops...
14:11 Matt-W I think perhaps rakudo could have a better error message there
14:11 [particle] it must be a method when defined with an invocant
14:11 [particle] yes, indeed.
14:11 moritz_ rakudo: class Str is also { method postcircumfix:<[ ]>() { say self } }; "foo"[]
14:11 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«foo␤»
14:11 [particle] better error messages wanted, and we'll have them when we move to STD.pm
14:11 * Matt-W waits for masak to say he's filing a bug
14:12 [particle] 'is also' still works?
14:12 moritz_ aye
14:12 moritz_ rakudo doesn't do 'augment' yet
14:12 masak Matt-W: sorry, a bit distracted by $work.
14:12 * masak files rakudobug
14:12 [particle] std: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s: @i) { my $res = ""; for @i { $res ~= substr($s, $_, 1) }; $res }; say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7,2,9,4,-1]
14:13 p6eval std 27117:  ( no output )
14:13 PerlJam Matt-W: we should follow masak's example and submit more rakudo bugs ourselves.
14:13 [particle] std: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s: @i) { my $res = ""; for @i { $res ~= substr($s, $_, 1) }; $res }; say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7,2,9,4,-1]
14:13 p6eval std 27117:  ( no output )
14:13 [particle] std: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s: @i) { my $res = ""; for @i { $res ~= substr($s, $_, 1) }; $res }; say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7,2,9,4,-1]
14:13 Matt-W PerlJam: I submit my own, I just don't find very many first
14:13 p6eval std 27117:  ( no output )
14:13 [particle] std: 1
14:13 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
14:13 pmichaud rakudo: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s, Int $i) { substr($s, $i, 1) };  say "OH HAI WORLD"[7];
14:13 phenny pmichaud: 09:28Z <viklund> tell pmichaud could you just tell me if there is any point in doing this: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-06-18#i_1248789
14:13 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«W␤»
14:13 pmichaud rakudo: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s, Int $i) { substr($s, $i, 1) };  say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7];
14:13 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching Int() but got something of type List() for $i in call to postcircumfix:[ ]␤in sub postcircumfix:[ ] (/tmp/TiTRhq4Zyz:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/TiTRhq4Zyz:2)␤»
14:14 pmichaud rakudo: class Str is also { method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Str $s: Int $i) { substr($s, $i, 1) }; };  say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7];
14:14 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching Int() but got something of type List() for $i in call to postcircumfix:[ ]␤in method Str::postcircumfix:[ ] (/tmp/OX2A0MvYU5:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/OX2A0MvYU5:2)␤»
14:15 pmichaud rakudo: class Str is also { method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Int $i) { substr(self, $i, 1) }; };  say "OH HAI WORLD"[7,0,7];
14:15 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching Int() but got something of type List() for $i in call to postcircumfix:[ ]␤in method Str::postcircumfix:[ ] (/tmp/odBNU2a4TB:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/odBNU2a4TB:2)␤»
14:15 pmichaud hmmpf.
14:15 Matt-W shouldn't it be Int @i?
14:15 [particle] (Int $i) ... [7,0,7]
14:15 pmichaud Yes, I know.
14:16 pmichaud I'm wanting it to fall back to the default postcircumfix case that accepts a list.
14:16 [particle] does Str have that?
14:16 moritz_ no
14:16 [particle] so it can't fall back.
14:17 pmichaud no, but in Rakudo atm postcircumfix:<[ ]> is a multisub, not strictly a method.
14:17 Matt-W But would the multi match against a string?
14:17 * PerlJam impatiently waits for a diff of two very large files
14:17 pmichaud so   "OH HAI"[1,0,1]  is really   postcircumfix:<[ ]>("OH HAI", 1, 0, 1)
14:18 [particle] PerlJam: try diff -j9 ;)
14:18 pmichaud and *that* version of postcircumfix should be breaking down the list into individual Int method calls.
14:18 PerlJam :)
14:19 pmichaud it might be that I really need Str to "does Positional" in order for that to work, though.
14:19 [particle] yeah, right.
14:19 [particle] how do you mix in that role to an existing type?
14:19 [particle] class string is also does Positional?
14:20 masak [particle]: augment Str { does Positional }
14:20 [particle] augment class Str { does Positional }
14:20 [particle] ok.
14:20 ruoso hmm... that would be intesting...
14:20 pmichaud I don't know.  At any rate, I'll look at it some other time.
14:20 [particle] why do my fingers keep typing 'class' there? sigh.
14:23 rjh joined #perl6
14:23 masak [particle]: in 'augment class Str'. I think that might be right.
14:24 moritz_ std: augment class Str { ... }
14:24 pmurias pmichaud: Str can't do Positional as the unit for the indexes isn't defined by default
14:24 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
14:24 moritz_ aye, you can also augment slangs
14:26 AzureStone joined #perl6
14:26 pmurias the chars/bytes/graphs/codes return the number of the given thing how do i split a string into an array of that things?
14:27 goksie joined #perl6
14:28 masak std: augment slang Regex {}
14:28 p6eval std 27117: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
14:28 bejuryu joined #perl6
14:28 masak pmurias: do you want the things as numbers, or as something else?
14:28 moritz_ pmurias: with substr
14:29 moritz_ something like $str.substr(Codes(3))
14:30 PerlJam I was thinking he could use comb
14:30 pmurias moritz_: substr returns a string
14:30 PerlJam But I don't know if you can actually twiddle the meaning of . in a regex in rakudo.
14:30 moritz_ PerlJam: not in rakudo, but it's specced that way
14:31 moritz_ $str.comb(rx:codes/./)
14:31 pmurias masak: that's a hard question, maybe strings
14:32 masak pmurias: I'm here to ask the hard questions. :)
14:32 masak pmurias: it seems to me not everything on those levels can be returned as strings.
14:33 pmurias i was just wondering if those methods could do spliting in list context
14:33 moritz_ right, a collection of bytes would be a Buf
14:33 PerlJam pmurias: that would seem reasonable to me.  :)
14:34 moritz_ not to me, because the method doesn't know its context
14:34 pmurias why not?
14:35 moritz_ pmurias: for the same reasons we want to abolish want()
14:35 PerlJam Hmm.
14:35 moritz_ multi a(Int $x) { ... }; multi a (*@x) { ... }; a($str.bytes) # which multi does it call? which context is it in?
14:35 PerlJam what about an adverb on Str?   $s:chars
14:36 moritz_ adverbs are defined on operators, not on nouns
14:36 moritz_ $str.to('codes')
14:36 PerlJam $str.as('codes')  maybe?
14:37 PerlJam doesn't "as" already do something?
14:37 moritz_ right, that's better
14:37 moritz_ PerlJam: not as a method
14:37 moritz_ sub($x as Str) { ... } # coerces $x to Str
14:39 PerlJam I never know where to draw the line on context sensitivity.  It still seems that using "as" for two different things (even though in different contexts) could cause confusion.
14:40 moritz_ maybe the solution is really to introduce a new Str type for every unicode level
14:40 moritz_ we have Buf for the byte level already
14:40 PerlJam my only reaction to that is "yuck"  :)
14:40 moritz_ we could have Codes and Graphs, and they can do Str
14:41 PerlJam and Words and Sentences too!
14:41 moritz_ Perl 5 showed how bad it was two have two different levels (bytes vs. codes) in one type (SV)
14:42 jan_ joined #perl6
14:43 PerlJam I still look at it as you have one thing that has many potential representations.  I don't care what the underlying implementation does as long as I can get the representation I want.
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14:47 PerlJam anyway, what makes the most sense to me is that $string.chars returns a list of characters and $string.bytes returns a list of bytes and that to actually get a count, you evaluate in a numeric context.
14:48 moritz_ think about performance for a moment... :/
14:48 PerlJam I'll leave that to an optimizer  :)
14:51 masak moritz_: is it a much heavier operation to collect the bytes/codes/chars than to count them?
14:52 masak for what it's worth, there have been times when I've been thinking PerlJam's thought too.
14:52 PerlJam unless someone comes up with something wonderful, the other way makes less sense.   why have all of these ways to count the number of bytes,chars,graphemes,etc. in a string with a less-than-obvious way to get the actual bytes, chars, graphemes, etc.
14:52 moritz_ masak: at least it needs much more memory
14:52 masak moritz_: true.
14:52 moritz_ O(n) vs. O(1)
14:55 masak 对对对
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15:08 payload i try to get the example/adventure running in rakudo
15:08 payload the error messages are no help ^^
15:09 masak no, they often aren't.
15:10 xinming_ masak: LOL at 对对对
15:10 masak xinming_: sometimes I think in Mandarin. :)
15:11 xinming_ masak: I really suggest people who use perl learn Chinese. :-)
15:11 payload even no line numbers... :-/
15:11 masak I think the closest translation to English would be 'nodnodnod' or 'rightrightright'...
15:11 xinming_ masak: yeayeayea~~~~
15:11 xinming_ Or, Oh-Yea~~~
15:12 Chillance joined #perl6
15:12 xinming_ BTW, the reason I laugh at 对对对 is because, Who are you talking to. :-)
15:12 TimToady us
15:12 masak :)
15:13 masak we're polyglots in here. Mandarin, Slovak, Lolspeak... it's all the same.
15:13 TimToady or should I say
15:13 TimToady 我們
15:13 pugs_svn r27118 | moritz++ | [examples] fix small error in adventure.pl
15:14 masak TimToady: not if you're speaking to a mainlander.
15:14 masak then it's 我们
15:14 TimToady 我们 then
15:15 * PerlJam is just an american who has picked up bits and pieces of other languages.
15:15 xinming_ masak: I can read that, traditional Chinese and Simpleified chinese is easy for Chinese people to read.
15:15 pugs_svn r27119 | moritz++ | [examples] use input method that Rakudo understands
15:15 PerlJam (I have no clue about Chinese though)
15:15 masak TimToady: 对了 :)
15:15 moritz_ wtf?
15:15 moritz_ positional inside named args at position 2
15:15 moritz_ in regex Adventure::command (adventure.pl:9)
15:16 TimToady masak: :)
15:16 masak xinming_: yes, you're right. I kinda envy you that -- I have to work a lot to get the traditional ones right.
15:17 pugs_svn r27120 | moritz++ | [examples] fix grammar usage
15:18 moritz_ uuh, I found another rakudobug
15:18 moritz_ run 'perl6 adventure.pl' and enter "west" at the prompt
15:18 moritz_ it says "Lexical '%map' not found"
15:18 * masak tries
15:19 moritz_ %map is only used in two places
15:19 moritz_ and in both of them it should be lexically visible
15:19 canol joined #perl6
15:19 payload moritz_: cause of the     module main;
15:19 moritz_ payload: ah, yes
15:20 moritz_ then it's a known bug
15:20 payload :-\
15:20 pugs_svn r27121 | moritz++ | [examples] work around rakudo bug
15:20 moritz_ ok, it does very simple operations now
15:20 donaldh joined #perl6
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15:21 xinming_ masak: I envy you that you read technical documentation much easier than me. :-P
15:21 masak xinming: I guess all the envy evens out. :P
15:23 xinming masak: for the tradition -> simplified or vice versa, You just just need to read more and be careful when you meet a radical on one side of a character
15:24 masak xinming: that's certainly true for a large percentage of the characters out there.
15:25 xinming There is no need to write both version of them, You only need to get one portion right. People can read easily, but remember to not to mix them, some people will go crazy.
15:25 masak xinming: I won't mix, I promise.
15:25 masak xinming: but I think I'll need to be able to read both.
15:26 xinming_ joined #perl6
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15:30 TimToady sometimes in Japanese you get yet a third variant
15:31 masak oh?
15:31 TimToady 齊 vs 齐 vs 斉
15:33 payload moritz_: well this workaround doesnt make the adventure compile but not fun ^^ http://pastebin.com/d341b7bb1
15:33 TimToady or 龜 vs 龟 vs 亀
15:33 masak traditional, simplified, and... quirky? :)
15:33 moritz_ payload: I know, I just wanted to give you a head start
15:33 payload allready on it ^^
15:34 moritz_ uhm, why doesn't this error message contain a line number?
15:34 moritz_ rakudo: .[1]
15:34 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤»
15:34 moritz_ masak: care to bugreport it?
15:34 TimToady 單 vs 单 vs 単
15:35 masak moritz_: okie.
15:35 * masak bug-reports
15:36 masak sometimes I think that Failure should really allow itself to be indexed with [] and {}, and just return another Failure.
15:36 TimToady and 壓 vs 压 vs 圧
15:36 masak that would be more in line with Perl 5.
15:36 masak TimToady: did Japan have two waves of simplification?
15:38 TimToady I don't think there are enough examples to call it a wave, quite
15:38 masak then whence the three variants?
15:38 TimToady I only have one other example, which is
15:38 TimToady 爾 vs 尔 vs 尓
15:39 masak the difference between the last two is very slight in my font.
15:39 TimToady I'd guess there were probably already some "abbreviations" in use when they were borrowed
15:41 masak ah. makes sense.
15:41 TimToady the last one could just be a miscopying
15:42 TimToady but by and large Japanese uses the traditional forms
15:43 TimToady as for actual waves of borrowing, I think there were about three
15:43 TimToady with the result that some characters have several different "chinese" pronunciations
15:43 masak that goes for the Hanzi, too.
15:43 TimToady depending on the state of the evolution of chinese when they were borrowed
15:44 TimToady in the case of Hanzi it might be the rediffusion of dialectal differences brought about by rate skew
15:45 TimToady centers of population have much faster language change than the outlying areas
15:45 sri_kraih joined #perl6
15:45 masak might be. and the mutation clock ticks differently for different characters too, it seems.
15:45 TimToady and the closest we have to elizabethan english is actually in appalachia
15:45 eMaX joined #perl6
15:46 [particle] word.
15:46 TimToady well, if I keep gabbing I'll never finish backlogging...
15:47 masak The gabbing is to 阳 as the backlogging is to 阴... :)
15:48 TimToady heh, didn't recognize those since Japanese uses the traditional
15:48 TimToady but they make sense
15:49 masak they do indeed.
15:49 * masak looks up the traditional ones
15:50 TimToady traditional uses radicals I call "sunny" and "murky"
15:50 masak ...which also makes sense.
15:50 masak given the etymology of Yang and Yin.
15:50 CarlJ joined #perl6
15:50 masak "the sunny/shady side of a brook or hill"
15:51 TimToady yes, I call 阝 "mound"
15:52 TimToady (when it's on the left, and "city" on the right)
15:52 masak 对.
15:54 dukeleto joined #perl6
15:54 TimToady murky 侌 has "now" on top and "roil" on the bottom, cf 雲 cloud
15:55 masak clouds are notoriously murky.
15:56 * alester renewed rakudo.org today
15:56 alester I like playing chicken with the registrar.
15:57 TimToady bock bock  # I also speak chicken
15:58 finanalyst joined #perl6
16:00 [particle] yes, but do you use the chicken unicode characters?
16:01 TimToady sure, but they all look like scratches to me
16:03 dukeleto joined #perl6
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16:07 dalek rakudo: 6765def | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
16:07 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 404 files, 11536 passing, 0 failing
16:07 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6765def9568a106f029a8f39d44b739242d20fa0
16:12 DemoFreak joined #perl6
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16:12 * moritz_ does a spectest now with parrot's release version
16:17 moritz_ rakudo: my $b = 2; $b R/= 24; say 2
16:17 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«No applicable methods.␤in Main (/tmp/rtwrpAXhvJ:2)␤»
16:17 moritz_ rakudo: my $b = 2; $b R/= 24; say $b
16:17 p6eval rakudo 9dc941: OUTPUT«No applicable methods.␤in Main (/tmp/g21j0NicpH:2)␤»
16:17 moritz_ should that work (and print out 12)?
16:17 moritz_ std: rakudo: my $b = 2; $b R/= 24; say $b
16:17 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:17 p6eval std 27121: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Can't reverse a multiplicative because it's too fiddly at /tmp/2a9QuoXPOD line 1:␤------> [32mrakudo: my $b = 2; $b R/=[31m 24; say $b[0m␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
16:18 TimToady actually, I think it's complaining about reversing an assignop
16:18 TimToady despte the mention of "multiplicative"
16:18 azawawi hi
16:19 TimToady azawawi: your .parse('') bug is not obvious, but I'll explore further
16:19 TimToady seems to blow up somewhere down in LTM for $
16:20 azawawi std: module JSON::String { }
16:20 p6eval std 27121: OUTPUT«panic: unexpected package name &JSON::String␤ok 00:02 35m␤»
16:21 TimToady look like it's confused about Foo vs &Foo somehow
16:21 TimToady but it does say "ok"
16:22 azawawi TimToady: also that's not neither an error nor a warning
16:23 TimToady yeah, it's just a 'say'
16:23 TimToady basically means that when we generate &Foo from Foo, nobody's bothering to handle :: correctly
16:24 TimToady so the name '&JSON::String' is getting poked into the symbol table directly
16:24 TimToady rather than poking &String into our version of the JSON symbol table
16:25 TimToady which is what ought to happen, I think
16:26 TimToady that is, MY<JSON::><&String>
16:26 azawawi TimToady: i caught it while getting strange Storable thawing version errors in Padre Perl 6 plugin. I call a separate process in a background thread to perform the redspans....
16:27 TimToady :: doesn't automatically mean start in GLOBAL:: as it does in p5
16:28 azawawi i see
16:28 TimToady especially if you're declaring something, it should be rooted in the current lexical space
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17:48 pugs_svn r27122 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Change an isa_ok to use a type instead of a Str.
17:56 pugs_svn r27123 | lwall++ | [Cursor] fix azawawi++'s .parse('') bug
17:58 lichtkind qw translates to Q :w // ?
17:59 Molaf joined #perl6
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17:59 TimToady Q:q:w actually
18:00 lichtkind ah thanks
18:00 lichtkind translates nicely
18:00 lichtkind that elegance i like on perl 6
18:01 PerlJam TimToady: does that make << >> equivalent of Q:qq:w  ?
18:01 pmichaud :ww, I think
18:01 TimToady Q:q:ww I think
18:01 pmichaud Q:qq:ww  I thought
18:01 TimToady yes :qq:ww
18:02 TimToady token quote:sym<« »>   { '«' <nibble($¢.cursor_fresh( %*LANG<Q> ).tweak(:qq).tweak(:ww).balanced('«','»'))> '»' }
18:03 * [particle] checks STD for Q:snowman:comet
18:03 PerlJam heh
18:04 TimToady that's just <quibble($¢.cursor_fresh( %*LANG<Q> ).tweak(:q))>
18:05 PerlJam perl6 is almost onomatopoeic .... nibble tweak tweak
18:05 TimToady well, that's what would parse q☃...☄
18:06 lichtkind [particle]: is there really a snowman in STD ?
18:06 Tene Now... why is snowman paired with comet?
18:06 TimToady rakudo: say q☃...☄
18:06 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "\u2603...\u2604"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
18:06 PerlJam Tene: because certain #perl6 denizens are insane :)
18:07 TimToady actually, the problem was in ranges
18:07 pmichaud actually, in regexes
18:07 pmichaud RT #66498
18:07 TimToady regexes, they both begin with r
18:07 Tene oh, that's a range.
18:08 pmichaud rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ regex ☃...☄
18:08 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«Malformed regex definition at line 2, near "\u2603...\u2604"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
18:08 pmichaud rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ rx ☃...☄
18:08 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:08 TimToady there you go
18:08 pmichaud rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ m ☃...☄
18:08 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:09 TimToady rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ m ☃...☎
18:09 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:09 TimToady rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ m /...☎
18:09 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:09 TimToady just not very picky, is it...
18:09 PerlJam Is there a white telephone to go with the black one?
18:10 TimToady rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ m /...☏
18:10 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«abc␤»
18:10 PerlJam rakudo say "abc" ~~ m .....
18:10 PerlJam rakudo: say "abc" ~~ m .....
18:10 mj41 http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=772603 Perl 6 and Web Development by jdrago_999
18:10 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ".."␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
18:11 PerlJam It's a little picky
18:11 TimToady std: say "abc" ~~ m .....
18:11 p6eval std 27123: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Can't understand next input--giving up at /tmp/FIiTRKmfYd line 1:␤------> [32m[31m[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     infix or meta-infix (with precedence tighter than list infix)␤    prefix or noun␤Undeclared routine:␤ m used at 1 1 ␤FAILED 00:04 38m␤»
18:11 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:11 sbp rakudo:  say "abc" ~~ m /…☏
18:11 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "/\u2026\u260f"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
18:11 pmichaud hmmm.  I just got an inquiry from sdtimes -- they want to interview me about Perl 6 and Parrot.
18:12 TimToady San Diego?
18:12 pmichaud yes.
18:12 * Tene google sdtimes
18:12 pmichaud the same group that published http://www.sdtimes.com/link/33186
18:12 moritz_ uhm, their homepage is... borked
18:13 pmichaud (but not the same writer/author, it seems)
18:13 moritz_ that links only gives me "Server Error in '/' Application."
18:13 pmichaud moritz_: odd.  It works for me.
18:15 moritz_ both in opera and iceweasel
18:15 Tene WFM
18:16 Tene pmichaud: going to take the interview?
18:16 pmichaud Yes, likely.
18:16 pmichaud I can't think of any good reasons not to.
18:16 pmichaud this inquiry appears to be coming from a "Senior Editor" so
18:17 pmichaud it sounds like a good idea to me.
18:17 PerlJam pmichaud: It's an ambush.  They're going to ask you all sorts of positive sounding questions then write the article in such a way to make  the answers sound horrendous.
18:17 PerlJam How about that ?
18:17 PerlJam :-)
18:18 sbp answer their questions only in PIR
18:18 pmichaud PerlJam: I thought about that possibility, yes.  But that doesn't strike me as a "good reason" yet :-)
18:18 ejs0 joined #perl6
18:18 justatheory joined #perl6
18:20 PerlJam pmichaud: well, at least you'll get a chance to spread the word about perl6 and the community and how people can participate
18:20 pmichaud Exactly.
18:21 dukeleto joined #perl6
18:33 payload how can i take all but the last item of an array?
18:33 payload rakudo: say (1,2,3,4)[0..*-2]
18:33 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«123␤»
18:33 moritz_ it's... magic
18:34 moritz_ rakudo: say (0..*-2).perl
18:34 payload hope so ^^
18:34 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
18:34 payload :-\
18:34 moritz_ rakudo: say (0..*-2).(10).perl
18:34 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«0..8␤»
18:34 moritz_ it's a closure returning a range
18:34 payload 0..*-2    for all but last?!
18:35 payload the -2 strikes me
18:35 moritz_ -1 is the last item
18:35 moritz_ which is what you want when you do @a[*-1]
18:36 pugs_svn r27124 | lwall++ | [STD] Makefile now has 'snap' target for transactional snapshot in snap/
18:36 payload yeah, but i thought there was something shorter to make (1,2,3) out of (1,2,3,4)
18:36 TimToady moritz_: are you on feather?
18:36 payload in python ^^ [:-1]
18:37 moritz_ TimToady: no, on timtowtdi.org ;-)
18:37 moritz_ TimToady: I can give you an account, or do it myself
18:37 TimToady we need to update the cron to do 'make snap'
18:37 TimToady I have an account, just not sure where it runs
18:37 moritz_ ... and run STD.pm in snap/
18:37 TimToady run tryfile in snap
18:37 moritz_ on timtowtdi.org?
18:38 TimToady wherever evalbot runs
18:38 TimToady should prevent the (no output)s
18:38 moritz_ it's in /chroot/home/evalenv/
18:39 TimToady I don't think I have an account on timtowtdi
18:40 moritz_ TimToady: if 'make snap' wouldn't run tryfile STD.pm, the build would be much faster ;-)
18:40 pugs_svn r27125 | moritz++ | [evalbot] run STD.pm in snap/
18:40 p6eval joined #perl6
18:40 TimToady tryfile STD is what builds up most of lex
18:41 moritz_ ah, so it's necessary
18:41 TimToady well, if you want the cache preloaded, which might prevent a few races
18:42 moritz_ test -d snap && mv snap snap.old
18:42 TimToady but since building it is part of the snapshot, it no longer is on the critical path for evalbot
18:42 moritz_ make: *** [snap] Error 1
18:42 TimToady heh
18:42 TimToady I guess it wants a -f then
18:43 * moritz_ tries with -f
18:44 TimToady course, it already moved lex/...
18:44 TimToady so will probably rebuild it again
18:44 TimToady or blow up on the mkdir
18:44 TimToady feel free to Make It Work :)
18:45 TimToady I have verified that once it's happy, you can make new snapshots without clobbering an existing t/ test
18:46 TimToady though the test targets don't make use of the snapshot yet
18:47 TimToady should probably throw an rm -rf snap.new before the mkdir, I suppose
18:47 TimToady but basically, it's doing a poor man's install
18:48 moritz_ I'll play a bit with it
18:49 TimToady thanks
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18:54 pugs_svn r27126 | moritz++ | [STD.pm] make "make snap" work for me.
18:55 moritz_ std: 1
18:55 p6eval std 27126:  ( no output )
18:55 TimToady orz
18:55 TimToady pulling output from wrong dir?
18:57 p6eval joined #perl6
18:57 moritz_ std: 1
18:57 p6eval std 27126:  ( no output )
18:57 moritz_ sh: line 1: 21631 CPU time limit exceeded /usr/bin/perl tryfile /tmp/RnliDbJR3C >> /tmp/0uanAUGeM7 2>&1
18:58 TimToady another reason to prebuild the cache...
18:59 TimToady std: 1
18:59 pugs_svn r27127 | moritz++ | [evalbot] tweak CPU limit a bit
18:59 p6eval std 27126: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
18:59 TimToady maybe rebuilding CORE.pad.store
19:00 p6eval joined #perl6
19:00 TimToady we could copy that down to snap as well to avoid rebuild
19:00 payload i fixed adventure.pl for rakudo http://pastebin.com/m1aaadf3a
19:01 athomason joined #perl6
19:01 moritz_ payload: if you tell me your email address I can give you commit access to the pugs repo
19:01 moritz_ payload: then you can push your fixes
19:01 alester joined #perl6
19:03 pugs_svn r27128 | moritz++ | [STD.pm] also copy CORE.pad.store
19:04 pmichaud rakudo:  say (0,1,2,3)[^*-1]
19:04 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
19:04 pmichaud oh, we don't have prefix:^ handling whatevercode yet.
19:04 moritz_ wouldn't you need ^(*-1) anyway?
19:04 pmichaud probably.
19:05 payload moritz_: s1394474@mail.zih.tu-dresden.de
19:05 pmichaud however
19:05 pmichaud rakudo:  say (0,1,2,3)[0..^*-1]
19:05 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«012␤»
19:05 pmichaud there.
19:05 pmichaud "up to but not including the last element"
19:05 TimToady more readable anyway
19:05 moritz_ payload: you've got mail
19:05 payload rakudo: say (1,2,3,4)[0..^*]
19:05 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«1234␤»
19:06 azawawi joined #perl6
19:06 moritz_ payload: it's a custom to add yourself to AUTHORS in the first commit, to test the commit bit
19:06 TimToady it's also a custom to tell people that on IRC rather than having the email say it :)
19:07 TimToady I think it's a good custom, actually.
19:07 lichtkind whats that quote protection in :ww ?
19:07 TimToady it means "make it work like shell quotes"  :)
19:08 pmichaud lichtkind: my $b = 'foo bar';   say <<$b>>.elems; #(2)  say <<"$b">>.elems;  #(1)
19:08 pmichaud rakudo:  my $b = 'foo bar';   say <<$b>>.elems;
19:08 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«1␤»
19:08 pmichaud argggggh
19:08 pmichaud rakudo--
19:08 TimToady with an emphasis on the "make it work" part :P
19:09 pmichaud getting that to work like shell quotes is fairly tricky, fwiw.
19:09 lichtkind so i can use "" within qw ?
19:09 TimToady or ''
19:09 lichtkind shure
19:09 lichtkind thanks a lot
19:09 TimToady presumably just like sh or maybe bash
19:09 TimToady presumably *not* like csh
19:10 lichtkind my $*OS eq 'XP'
19:10 TimToady and probably not including `cmd`
19:10 pmichaud I need to look at what STD produces for a parse in that case, but in rakudo's quasi-quote-parser it's a bit of a challenge to process the interpolated parts as things stand now.  :-|
19:10 TimToady I suspect STD mostly punts on that one
19:11 pmichaud Then Rakudo is following STD here.  :-P
19:12 sjohnson try not to catch an STD
19:12 pmichaud afk for a while
19:14 pugs_svn r27129 | lwall++ | [STD] s/comb/words/ on 2 fossils
19:16 stephan481 joined #perl6
19:16 lichtkind TimToady++
19:16 lichtkind moritz++
19:17 lichtkind if pmichaud would be here he would also get :)
19:18 TimToady std: rx 𪚥...𪚥
19:18 p6eval std 27129: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 36m␤»
19:19 TimToady that's funny, the log seems to be missing the ...
19:20 TimToady std: rx 𪚥abcde𪚥
19:20 p6eval std 27129: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
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19:21 TimToady oh, looks like my browser has that character as 0-width
19:21 TimToady you'd think it'd know that a chinese character with 64 strokes would have some width...
19:22 TimToady copy/pastes okay though
19:22 TimToady so just a rendering glitch
19:23 TimToady ilbot++
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19:24 stephan481 left #perl6
19:24 lichtkind at least quaoting ops are now cirrect in A
19:24 pyrimidine joined #perl6
19:29 payload joined #perl6
19:30 pugs_svn r27130 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] Added an STD->parse('') test. TimToady++
19:40 solarion joined #perl6
19:40 pugs_svn r27131 | azawawi++ | [S:H:P6] version 0.62 contains the STD->parse(\s*) not undefined fix
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20:33 rindolf Hi all.
20:33 justatheory joined #perl6
20:33 rindolf TimToady: here?
20:36 rjh joined #perl6
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20:57 payload joined #perl6
21:02 pugs_svn r27132 | payload++ | made adventure runnable for rakudo
21:02 payload karma
21:02 moritz_ @karma payload
21:02 lambdabot payload has a karma of 1
21:02 payload @karma moritz_
21:02 lambdabot moritz_ has a karma of 72
21:03 moritz_ @karma moritz
21:03 lambdabot moritz has a karma of 680
21:03 payload :D
21:04 moritz_ my svn user name is moritz, so that's where I get the karma for commits
21:06 pyrimidine I have a grammar question
21:07 pyrimidine I am testing out a few grammars for some bioinformatics stuff (perl6 versions of bioperl)
21:08 pyrimidine Are grammars capable of ratcheting through a file sequentially, a chunk (in this case, a sequence record) at a time?
21:08 pyrimidine something akin to:
21:08 lichtkind joined #perl6
21:08 pyrimidine while Bio::Grammar::Fasta.parsefile('data.fas', :action($action)) {  say $/; }
21:09 pyrimidine but maybe with file handles vs files in this case
21:09 justatheory joined #perl6
21:10 moritz_ not yet
21:10 pyrimidine (the above in Rakudo is an infinite loop printing the first record in the file)
21:10 pyrimidine ok
21:10 moritz_ it's specced to work with "cat" objects
21:10 moritz_ see S05
21:10 moritz_ there's a section about matching non-strings
21:10 pyrimidine got it
21:13 * ruoso later ^
21:13 ejs0 joined #perl6
21:14 lichtkind is there a rx in perl 6?
21:14 pyrimidine moritz_: That seems specific for regexes using ~~.  How would that work with a grammar?  I'm guessing via Bio::Grammar::Fasta.parse($stream, :actions($foo))?
21:14 dukeleto joined #perl6
21:14 moritz_ lichtkind: yes
21:15 moritz_ pyrimidine: not sure, but it might work that way
21:15 pyrimidine moritz_: that would make the most sense, at least to me
21:15 sri_kraih joined #perl6
21:16 lichtkind moritz_: sorry tried to do to much at once i mean qx?
21:16 * pyrimidine just realized how much that simplifies 90% of bioperl...
21:16 moritz_ lichtkind: yes
21:16 lichtkind moritz_: works the same?
21:16 moritz_ lichtkind: it's not interpolating by default
21:16 lichtkind moritz_: like Q :x of course
21:17 moritz_ lichtkind: right
21:18 pyrimidine wow, that gave me the angry scary emoticon on my irc client
21:19 pyrimidine moritz_: I'm guessing that Cat is awaiting some of the lazy implementation issues?
21:21 moritz_ pyrimidine: that, and improvements to the regex engine
21:21 pyrimidine moritz_: LTM (again a guess)
21:22 moritz_ pyrimidine: no, not this time ;-)
21:27 lichtkind moritz_: Q :q :x wouldnt make sanse :)
21:27 lichtkind sense
21:28 moritz_ lichtkind: why not?
21:29 lichtkind moritz_: quote slashes inside the code?
21:29 lichtkind common get real :)
21:29 pmurias lichtkind: what were your smop questions?
21:29 pyrimidine ok, well I can at least get a head start on the simple grammars.  We have a few souls on the bioinformatics side who would like it to be Christmas
21:29 pyrimidine thx
21:30 lichtkind pmurias: right
21:31 lichtkind pmurias: got that msg?
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21:59 lichtkind is there a block modificator called subst
22:00 kst joined #perl6
22:02 moritz_ there's a builtin called subst
22:02 moritz_ rakudo: say 'abc'.subst(/b/, 2)
22:02 p6eval rakudo 6765de: OUTPUT«a2c␤»
22:07 lichtkind moritz_: yes i saw it now on the other page
22:08 lichtkind moritz_: i guess i have spend more hours every day on that to get it all right
22:09 lichtkind complaining suckz
22:10 netfish joined #perl6
22:13 dalek rakudo: 5948c11 | pmichaud++ |  (3 files):
22:13 dalek rakudo: Allow Parrot VERSION to be used in cases when the svn revision
22:13 dalek rakudo: information isn't available (e.g., Parrot built from tarball
22:13 dalek rakudo: or non-svn checkout).
22:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5948c11826b66b8b31e2d0b8027b1c33c74f8100
22:13 dalek rakudo: 99cad48 | pmichaud++ | docs/ (2 files):
22:13 dalek rakudo: Documentation updates for release.
22:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/99cad48b9f2c530e84a743e7c5fe665206c0b80e
22:13 dalek rakudo: 7c981fc | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2009-06:
22:13 dalek rakudo: More announcement updates.
22:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7c981fcfd414c9ec2575f44304a8b6b52b8e142d
22:13 dalek rakudo: c9d76a9 | pmichaud++ | README:
22:13 dalek rakudo: Formatting fix.
22:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c9d76a9458a6ba29828f2421dc8e578e268f6768
22:18 dalek rakudo: 1b06df8 | pmichaud++ | docs/ (2 files):
22:18 dalek rakudo: More news.
22:18 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1b06df80900096dab8a9f74467f504f73a6115dd
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22:49 DanielC Who is Martin D Kealey? He just asked me to explain how to use IRC.
22:50 moritz_ http://markmail.org/message/moke4dfb54r2szq7 apparently a casual p6l reader/writer
22:50 DanielC *click*
22:50 moritz_ http://www.kurahaupo.gen.nz/~martin/cv.cgi
22:51 DanielC From his CV, he seems knowledgeable. I'm surprised he didn't know how to use IRC.
22:52 DanielC No matter. I was happy to help.
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23:02 pugs_svn r27133 | payload++ | added myself
23:04 netfish left #perl6
23:11 lichtkind thanks folks
23:11 lichtkind im out for now
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