Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-06-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:42 wayland76 bots: ping
00:47 wayland76 pmichaud: ping?
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02:52 KyleHa I'm looking at [perl #66868] Zero-arg sub params interpreted as parameterless sub...
02:52 KyleHa I came up with this to put in S06-signature/arity.t:   dies_ok { a_zero( 'hello', 'world' ) }, 'no matching sub signature';
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02:54 KyleHa That seems right, if this is a run time error, but I'm not sure that it is.  Anyone have an opinion?
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03:05 wayland76 perl6: a_zero( 'hello', 'world' )
03:05 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&a_zero"␤    at /tmp/628bzGrqTY line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
03:05 p6eval ..rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub a_zero␤»
03:05 p6eval ..elf 27178: OUTPUT«Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::a_zero called at (eval 124) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
03:05 wayland76 std: a_zero( 'hello', 'world' )
03:05 p6eval std 27178: OUTPUT«Undeclared routine:␤   a_zero used at 1 ␤ok 00:02 37m␤»
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03:06 KyleHa The test file I'm working in defines:  sub a_zero () {};
03:06 wayland76 KyleHa: Well, STD errors on it, and, while my compilers-fu is somewhat sketchy, it seems to me that that indicates a parser error
03:06 wayland76 ok, let me try again :)
03:06 wayland76 std: sub a_zero () {}; a_zero( 'hello', 'world' )
03:06 p6eval std 27178: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
03:07 wayland76 perl6: sub a_zero () {}; a_zero( 'hello', 'world' )
03:07 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No compatible multi variant found: "&a_zero"␤    at /tmp/R4WRwR6UpN line 1, column 19 - line 2, column 1␤»
03:07 p6eval ..elf 27178, rakudo 10f223:  ( no output )
03:07 wayland76 rakudo: sub a_zero () {}; a_zero( 'hello', 'world' )
03:07 p6eval rakudo 10f223:  ( no output )
03:07 azawawi hi
03:08 KyleHa The bug report says the TimToady says it should error out with "no matching sub signature."
03:08 wayland76 Well, STD likes it, and pugs fails
03:08 wayland76 Yeah, I'd say that's run time, but I'm pretty much randomly guessing
03:09 KyleHa I'm glad I'm not the only one guessing!
03:09 wayland76 We're approaching the time of day when it's hard to get answers, because many of the appropriate people are asleep.  But sometimes TimToady is still around at this time
03:11 KyleHa That's good to know.
03:11 KyleHa This is about the time I'm most free since the kids are in bed, but I haven't passed out myself yet.
03:16 wayland76 Well, it's 1pm here (Australia), and I find that from about 2pm to about 4pm, it's not a good time to ask questions
03:16 wayland76 Which timezone are you in?
03:17 azawawi wayland76: good morning from +2 timezone :)
03:18 KyleHa I'm in central time (Chicago).  It's 10pm here.
03:18 azawawi 6:18am here
03:18 wayland76 azawawi: Yes, I know you're around at this time.  bacek often is too.  But jnthn and pmichaud and moritz_ and masak and TimToady and the like seem to not be available as much
03:19 wayland76 Oh, and ruoso and pmurias
03:19 wayland76 And it seems to me like they're the people with the best handle on the situation
03:21 wayland76 (nothing personal against the rest of us, of course)
03:22 wayland76 KyleHa: Anyway, my guess is that you'll have to just make assumptions, and ask for forgiveness if you're wrong :)
03:22 wayland76 (forgiveness rather than permission)
03:23 KyleHa wayland76: Yeah, I'm going that route now.
03:23 KyleHa I'll commit the tests I think are right and answer the bug emails with notes about that and pleas for assistance.
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03:24 KyleHa (Stop me before I screw up your test suite even more!)
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03:36 pugs_svn r27179 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Add a test to show bug #66868
03:40 pugs_svn r27180 | kyle++ | [t/spec] add test to show bug #66854
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04:00 azawawi std: '';
04:00 p6eval std 27180: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
04:02 azawawi std: module Foo::Bar { }; module Moo::Bar;
04:02 p6eval std 27180: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
04:04 azawawi std:
04:04 azawawi std: ;
04:04 p6eval std 27180: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 35m␤»
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04:12 azawawi TimToady: thanks for the fix; for STD->parse(''), im getting "Not a reference at lib/Cursor.pm line 203". It seems related re-init setting on re-parse.
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05:02 amoc rakudo: enum Color <foo bar>; sub foo { 'sub' }; say foo; #63650
05:02 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Redefinition of routine foo␤0␤»
05:06 amoc rakudo: class A { ... };
05:06 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/9k1eH40Qly:2)␤»
05:16 amoc rakudo: enum Color <black white pink>; sub pink { 'sub' }; say pink; #63650
05:16 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Redefinition of routine pink␤2␤»
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05:17 amoc rakudo: enum Color <black white pink>; sub pink { 'sub' }; say pink(); #63650
05:17 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Redefinition of routine pink␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤in Main (/tmp/cgkJudknVS:2)␤»
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05:57 pugs_svn r27181 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Add Greek tests to autoincrement
06:04 wayland76 Yay kyle :)
06:04 KyleHa Don't cheer too loud.
06:05 KyleHa I quit playing chess an hour ago because I was feeling too dumb, but that didn't stop me from going into the pugs repo...
06:05 amoc non-loud-yay kyle :D
06:06 KyleHa Heh, thanks.
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06:15 moritz_ good morning
06:15 azawawi moritz_: good morning
06:15 azawawi where can i find TimToady's 'Perl 6 errors' talk at YAPC? is there any video/slides?
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06:38 amoc moritz_: good morning!
06:39 moritz_ oh hai
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06:50 moritz_ phenny, tell KyleHa, yes, it should be a runtime error
06:50 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when KyleHa is around.
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07:10 sw1sh1 hi, i just started to read wiki to learn perl6, and already found at least four things that dont work in pugs, is it still so incomplete or what?
07:11 moritz_ yes
07:11 moritz_ and it's not developed anymore
07:11 moritz_ we mostly use rakudo these days
07:12 sw1sh1 ok, i'll try rakudo then
07:12 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
07:13 sw1sh1 thanks
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08:01 Matt-W Morning
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08:04 amoc morning!
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08:30 masak morning, lurkers!
08:31 huf lurkers, morning!
08:34 Matt-W o/
08:34 azawawi masak: yeah it is a good morning :)
08:35 Matt-W No it's not
08:35 Matt-W It was only good once I got into somewhere with air conditioning
08:35 moritz_ http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=773757 # the yapc seems to spawn some interest in Perl 6
08:35 Matt-W The air outside feels like someone's been boiling slugs in it
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08:36 Matt-W moritz_: cool
08:37 masak it's a good morning, albeit a slightly late one.
08:38 masak wohoo! a hurkle!
08:39 Matt-W also my car's been written off
08:39 Matt-W so now I have to trawl through the used car market to find a suitable replacement
08:39 masak still, that sounds like good news.
08:40 Matt-W well it's news
08:40 Matt-W which is a good start
08:41 masak rakudo: say [?^] 1, 1, 1
08:41 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:42 azawawi masak: another attempt at picture blogging, http://ahmadzawawi.blogspot.com/2009/06/​padres-perl-6-quick-fixes-in-action.html :)
08:42 * masak likes picture blogging
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08:43 masak azawawi++ # nice!
08:44 azawawi thx and that's just the beginning; p6 var/sub/method refactoring is next :)
08:52 Matt-W Hmm
08:52 Matt-W Ctrl+~ is not an easy keystroke on a UK keyboard
08:52 moritz_ easier than on a German keyboard :-)
08:52 Matt-W (poking around the entries about Padre)
08:52 huf how do you code on anything but the US layout anyway? :)
08:53 Matt-W moritz_: is it?
08:53 azawawi Matt-W: really?
08:53 moritz_ Matt-W: on the German keyboard you need AltGr + another key to create the ~
08:53 Matt-W azawawi: ~ requires shift on the UK layout
08:53 azawawi Matt-W: what about Ctrl-1?
08:53 moritz_ Matt-W: so you'd need Crtl+AltGr+Q or so
08:53 Matt-W moritz_: sounds about the same as Ctrl+Shift+#
08:54 Matt-W which is what it is here
08:55 azawawi Matt-W, moritz_: so is Ctrl + 1 easier to use on a uk, german keywords?
08:55 moritz_ azawawi: it sure is
08:55 azawawi s/keywords/keyboard/ :)
08:55 Matt-W definitely
08:56 Matt-W huf: coding on a UK keyboard is easy, because the punctuation is mostly in the same place as the US layout so we don't have quite so many insane key combinations as some of the other european layouts have to suffer
08:56 azawawi then i should 'borrow' it from Padre's core since it is using it :)
08:57 huf Matt-W: ah
08:57 szabgab that's the brace jumper!
08:57 huf i took one look at our national layout and forever said no... :)
08:57 azawawi szabgab: lol
08:57 moritz_ speaking of weird keyboards... writing perl on a keyboard without a dollar sign is a real pain
08:58 Matt-W I bet
08:58 Matt-W fortunately we have one of those
08:58 Matt-W although it'd be easier if it wasn't shift-4, I suppose
08:58 szabgab huf, whz that kezboard lazout is really nice
08:58 moritz_ at least I couldn't find it on the Norwegian layout
08:59 szabgab reallz
08:59 szabgab sorrz, that was a tzpo
08:59 huf szabgab: altgr to get ';'? *real* nice ;)
08:59 masak moritz_: I've been doing most of my computer work with a US layout for over two years now. not going back. I say this as someone whose mother tongue has a strange alphabet. it's a matter of having good software to compensate.
08:59 Matt-W German keyboards seem pretty horrible for coding to me
09:00 huf isnt german the one that has the "paired" chars "unpaired"?
09:00 Matt-W the extra letter keys do nasty things to the availability of your punctuation
09:00 moritz_ masak: agreed
09:00 huf as in, [] and {} are not next to each other... or was it <>?
09:00 moritz_ Matt-W: right
09:00 moritz_ huf: [] and {} are next to each other, but you need AltGr to reach it
09:00 masak moritz_: I can still switch, but the Swedish layout now seems quaint and slightly unnatural.
09:01 moritz_ < and > are on the same key, separated by shift
09:01 moritz_ (sigh)
09:01 huf oh yeah, that was it ;)
09:02 moritz_ you get used to it, but it makes switching between US and German layout a real pain.
09:03 masak so don't. that's my point.
09:03 masak use US, and emulate the rest.
09:03 masak Emacs is your friend. even vim helps.
09:04 moritz_ well, I also use other programs than vim
09:05 moritz_ like icew{weasel,dove}, the shell etc.
09:05 masak aye, Firfox/Gmail is about the only time I switch, too.
09:05 moritz_ so I really need an input method that's handled either by X or the OS
09:05 masak for longer emails, I simply type things out in Emacs and copy/paste.
09:06 moritz_ plus, I have a job as an administrator, and have to cope with whatever keyboard the poeple I work with use
09:06 moritz_ so I can't get around switching anyway
09:08 masak no, it's probably not possible to get around it altogether.
09:08 masak I just try to minimize it, and to make my default as pleasant as possible.
09:08 huf i just dont use the extra chars, so the US layout is fine
09:09 masak huf: and you're... from the US?
09:09 huf hungary
09:10 masak which means you skip some accents and the like?
09:10 huf we've got a few accented chars, but it's perfectly legible without them
09:10 huf plus, code is in english anyway
09:10 masak huf: that's not an acceptable solution for Germans and Swedes, I'd say.
09:10 masak huf: plus, it feels like a bad compromise.
09:10 moritz_ I just find it impolite to transliterate other people's names
09:10 masak that, too.
09:11 moritz_ in emails or so it's fine to substitute &auml; with ae, but for example not in websites I write
09:13 moritz_ or æ with ae
09:16 moritz_ .øØ( thought bubbles for wrong thoughts )
09:17 moritz_ maybe I should use capslock as the compose key
09:18 wayland76 moritz_: But do you have to type non-English on the keyboards of people you administer?
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09:19 krunen I use US-International with no-dead-keys for norwegian. AltGr-[ZLW] is [ÆØÅ]. That also has «» and some other snacks.
09:19 moritz_ wayland76: usually not
09:19 wayland76 That's what I thought
09:19 wayland76 I have two keyboards
09:19 wayland76 One is US-ASCII or something
09:20 wayland76 The other is US-International + Greek + Hebrew + APL
09:20 wayland76 (although it doesn't have all those symbols printed on it)
09:20 moritz_ sounds pretty scary :-)
09:20 wayland76 And I use Scroll lock to switch layouts
09:21 wayland76 And the scroll lock led lights up when I'm not in US-International :)
09:21 moritz_ what kind of tool do you use for the switching?
09:22 wayland76 I press Scroll lock :)
09:22 moritz_ on the backend, I mean
09:22 wayland76 (just in case I didn't make myself clear, I have two physical keyboards)
09:23 moritz_ but the switching between Greek and US-International, for example, is handled in software, no?
09:23 Matt-W I wish I had a compose key on windows
09:23 Matt-W on linux I can type virtually anything from a latin-ish european language easily
09:23 wayland76 setxkbmap
09:23 moritz_ wayland76: thanks
09:23 wayland76 I have a perl script that finds the second keyboard, and runs setxkbmap on it
09:24 wayland76 setxkbmap is configured with a bunch of undocumented but moderately straightforward config files in /usr/share/X11/xkb with all the combining being done by the files in /usr/share/X11/locale/<locale>/Compose and the like
09:25 wayland76 I'm also planning to make a keyboard that I might be able to sell that does US-International + Greek + Maths/APL
09:26 moritz_ locales. gah.
09:26 moritz_ I try to avoid those like hell
09:26 wayland76 Well, yes, but the compose sequences are kinda cool :)
09:27 moritz_ right
09:27 moritz_ and perl5 doesn't handle Unicode correctly if the wronge locale is set.
09:28 wayland76 Well, this isn't the generic locale stuff, it's X-specific stuff, which pretty much means a huge list of compose sequences mapping to characters
09:28 wayland76 Unfortunately my second keyboard doesn't have a right windows key
09:28 moritz_ a different locales system.
09:28 moritz_ oh wow
09:29 moritz_ well, off to lunch
09:29 wayland76 But it does have keys that produce no scancodes :(
09:29 Matt-W hah
09:29 wayland76 well, not a different locales system
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09:29 Matt-W PuTTY has compose key support built in
09:29 Matt-W that'll do for me :)
09:29 Matt-W %hash«key» :D
09:29 Matt-W (did that render right?)
09:30 wayland76 But just that the locale stuff in XWindows doesn't do a lot of the stuff that's done by other software
09:30 wayland76 ie. a different set of config files that do different things.
09:30 wayland76 Matt-W: French rather than Texan :)
09:30 wayland76 PuTTY++ ++ ++
09:31 wayland76 I avoid Windows as much as possible, but PuTTY is a good bit of software for which I have been thankful often enough
09:31 huf yeah, frustrating movie. the end is nice tho
09:32 wayland76 For those wondering about the locale files, but too lazy to look, I'll paste one line from them
09:32 wayland76 <Multi_key> <o> <r>                     : "®"   registered # REGISTERED SIGN
09:32 bionoid Also there is a google code mod called "puttycyg" that allows you to use putty as a local cygwin terminal if you _have_ to do some actual work on Windows ;)
09:32 wayland76 I haven't seen "PuTTY: the movie" yet :)
09:32 huf i meant windows the movie :)
09:33 wayland76 I take it by "nice", then, than you mean that Windows dies a violent death, but somewhere offscreen where we don't have to watch?
09:33 wayland76 (afk for a bit, but will backlog)
09:33 huf ;)
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09:52 masak I have a Model M keyboard here at work. I have to bribe my co-workers constantly so they won't complain about the clattering too much -- but it's well worth it.
10:01 wayland76 masak: I just got an Avant Stellar :)
10:01 wayland76 Buckled spring, but the keyboard can be reprogrammed from the keyboard, without software :)
10:01 masak (springs)++
10:02 wayland76 My only gripes are that it doean't have n-key rollover, and that I haven't figured out a way to make it send any keycode that isn't already on one of the keys
10:03 wayland76 I wonder if the Optimus Maximus has n-key rollover :)
10:03 masak rakudo: enum A <b>; say A::c
10:03 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤in Main (/tmp/eZqi9x5plT:2)␤»
10:03 * masak submits rakudobug
10:04 masak rakudo: say q<< <<woot>> >>
10:04 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ">>"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
10:04 * masak submits rakudobug
10:05 masak rakudo: say (map -> $a, $b { $a }, 1..5).perl; for 1..5 -> $a, $b {}
10:05 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«[1, 3]␤StopIteration␤in Main (/tmp/2qZBAsxsOE:2)␤»
10:05 * masak submits rakudobug
10:05 masak rakudo: sub foo(--> Array of Str) { my Str @a = <foo bar baz>; @a }; foo
10:05 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤Type check failed on return value␤in sub foo (/tmp/gJcBE0Ht4P:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/gJcBE0Ht4P:2)␤»
10:05 * masak submits rakudobug
10:06 masak what? I had a few lying around. :)
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10:14 masak lunch &
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11:05 moritz_ is there a cheap test somehow to figure out if an integer is a square number, without calculating sqrt($x)?
11:08 last moritz_: I don't think so.
11:08 barney only test positive integers
11:11 last moritz_: There are certainly pretty good first-pass filters you could use.  Like if it's even, it has to be divisible by four.
11:13 last moritz_: http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath265.htm
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11:16 huf btw, will rakudo be self-hosting eventually?
11:16 s1n2 joined #perl6
11:17 moritz_ last: thanks, that looks pretty interesting
11:18 moritz_ huf: well, it'll always need parrot, presumably.
11:18 huf self-hosting on parrot is what i mean
11:18 huf entirely written in perl6 and able to compile itself
11:19 moritz_ some of the runtime will probably always remain in PIR, for speed reasons
11:19 moritz_ but it's pretty much written in Perl 6 already (the parser, the action methods (ie transforming the parse tree into a syntax tree, and the setting (ie builtins))
11:20 moritz_ it might become self-hosting if there's something to gain from it
11:20 moritz_ but at some point we'll surely get rid of the Perl 5 dependency for building and testing
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11:21 moritz_ last: if it were a pressing problem I'd probably invent something along these lines for binary numbers, but it doesn't seem to warrant the effort for project euler :-)
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11:25 last mortiz_: I believe a quick (?) binary filter is to count the number of zero digits at the end of the number.  That number has to be even for a square.
11:27 last moritz_: Seems like there ought to be a fast hex equivalent to the sort of tests on that page, but I should probably do paying work rather than try to figure it out.  :)
11:28 moritz_ last: :-)
11:28 masak moritz_: you could calculate [+} 1, 3, 5 ... $n until you go above your number. :)
11:30 moritz_ masak: :/
11:30 masak no good? :)
11:31 moritz_ not particularl efficient
11:31 moritz_ *particularly
11:31 masak no, definitely not.
11:31 masak but it avoids sqrt.
11:32 moritz_ I should've asked for something *faster* than sqrt() :-)
11:32 masak yes...
11:32 last How are bignums stored internally?
11:32 masak ok, I'd like to talk about StrPos, one of those nice ideas, which so far hasn't seen an implementation anywhere (AFAIK).
11:33 masak in my opinion, the substr multi in S32/Str.pod is missing a variant whete $start is an Int.
11:33 masak same with index and rindex.
11:33 masak I'll willingly add those; just seeking confirmation first that I'm not insane.
11:34 masak um, that what I'm proposing is not insane. :P
11:35 moritz_ last: dunno, I just use them :-)
11:36 moritz_ masak: I think the only one how maybe has a faint idea of how StrPos works is TimToady
11:36 masak moritz_: it's described fairly well in S02.
11:36 masak the important point is that StrPos is _not_ and Int.
11:36 masak nor does an Int coerce into a StrPos.
11:37 moritz_ in my mind they are multi-valued objects
11:37 moritz_ ie a StrPos could know "I'm 5 graphs, or 8 codes, from the start"
11:38 masak moritz_: not sure you're seeing my point. the way substr works now (with Ints) will still be supported in Perl 6.0.0.
11:38 masak the current signatures in S32/Str don't allow for that.
11:38 masak (same with index and rindex)
11:38 moritz_ masak: I didn't even get to your point yet :-)
11:39 masak Rakudo and the spec are at odds on that point right now.
11:39 masak moritz_: ok, I'm too eager. :) go on.
11:39 masak (I do agree about the multivaluedness)
11:39 moritz_ the point is, if you have an integer and want it to be interpreted as a StrPos (like when using it with substr) you have to be very clear about your units, again
11:39 masak moritz_: S02 mentions that, too.
11:40 masak an Int defaults to the current scope's string abstraction level.
11:40 moritz_ maybe that's what's controlled by 'use codes;' etc.
11:40 masak aye.
11:41 moritz_ though I don't quite understand the talk about a StrLen knowing its length also in bytes
11:42 moritz_ because I thought that Str's don't have a byte level, only Buf's
11:42 masak arguably the spec is self-contradictory in places.
11:42 masak there are geological layers of insight involved.
11:43 moritz_ masak: but IMHO you can go ahead and add the Int candidates of these multis
11:43 * masak goes ahead
11:43 masak as far as I can see, that's one Int variant for every StrPos variant.
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11:44 moritz_ be careful for example with substr
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11:45 moritz_ given substr(Str $s, StrPos $start = 0, StrLen $len = *, Str $replacement?)
11:45 masak the defaults? yes.
11:45 masak just realized that.
11:45 moritz_ will you allow (Str, Int, StrLen)?
11:45 masak I think so.
11:45 moritz_ so you need Int|StrPos and Int|StrLen?
11:46 masak ah, I can write it like that? great.
11:46 moritz_ I'm not sure.
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11:46 moritz_ we had so much back and forth on that one
11:47 azawawi yellow
11:47 masak rakudo: sub foo(Int|Str $a = "foo") { say $a }; foo(); foo(5); foo("bar")
11:47 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤»
11:47 masak not supported in Rakudo, at least.
11:48 masak I'll write it the long way for the time being.
11:49 moritz_ std: foo(Int|Str $a = "foo") { say $a }; foo(); foo(5); foo("bar")
11:49 p6eval std 27181: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Unable to parse argument list; couldn't find final ')' at /tmp/yijaDp463J line 1:␤------> [32mfoo(Int|Str [31m$a = "foo") { say $a }; foo(); foo(5); f[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤
11:49 p6eval ..terminator␤FAILED 00:02…
11:50 masak same error as Rakudo, incidentally.
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11:51 masak oh! and won't the signatures (Str $string: StrPos $start, StrLen $length?) and (Str $string: StrPos $start, StrPos $end?) tie if no third argument is provided?
11:52 masak should I remove one of the question marks?
11:53 last moritz_: Reason I ask about bignums is because that is going to determine how to efficiently look for large squares.  If your potential squares fit into a 32-bit Int, you're probably better off just building a table of all the 32-bit squares (should take 256K of memory) and doing a binary search into it.  (At least, assuming you're doing a enough lookups to make it worth optimizing.)  (Hey, I'm compiling in another window.)
11:54 jdv79 joined #perl6
11:57 pugs_svn r27182 | masak++ | [S32/Str] Added Int variants to index/rindex/substr
11:57 pugs_svn r27182 | masak++ |
11:57 pugs_svn r27182 | masak++ | There has to be a way to send in an Int to these Str methods. Arguably,
11:57 pugs_svn r27182 | masak++ | StrPos and StrLen are not Ints -- that's their point. Also, removed
11:57 pugs_svn r27182 | masak++ | optionality from the $end param in substr, because IMO that would lead
11:57 pugs_svn r27182 | masak++ | to MMD ties when no third argument is provided.
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12:04 masak like this:
12:04 masak rakudo: multi foo(Str $a, Str $b?) {}; multi foo(Str $a, Int $b?) {}; foo("bar")
12:04 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'foo'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures:␤:(Str $a, Str $b?)␤:(Str $a, Int $b?)␤in Main (/tmp/kKYhDPWV05:2)␤»
12:05 masak you don't know if it's a Str or an Int that wasn't provided. :)
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12:14 moritz_ last: I expect them to be 64bit ints, but I also estimated the current run time is sufficient. It's not a program I have to run often :-)
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12:22 last moritz_: Ah, obviously building a 16GB table to speed up your calculations is probably a bit impractical.
12:25 last moritz_: I mean 32GB -- 4 GB 64-bit numbers.
12:25 skids joined #perl6
12:26 wayland76 ...unless he can keep it on disk and it's still faster
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12:58 pmichaud Good morning, #perl6
12:59 wayland76 Good morning
12:59 wayland76 Did you get my message asking about the branch with the make files?
13:00 masak mornin'.
13:00 pmichaud I'm way behind on email
13:00 pmichaud (and other messaging environments)
13:00 pmichaud today's the first "free" day I've had since last Thursday
13:03 pmichaud wayland76: was the message sent via email, irc, rt, or ... ?
13:03 wayland76 ok.  The basic question was, can you give me a link to a diff (or the branch) that has the changed makefiles in it?
13:03 wayland76 (sent via lambdabot and phenny)
13:04 pmichaud branch is the "ins" branch in github
13:04 wayland76 Ok, thanks.
13:04 pmichaud it's out of date already, but the basic issues are addressed there
13:05 wayland76 Ok
13:05 pmichaud current problem is that pbc_to_exe still depends on the build tree
13:05 wayland76 Ok.  I´m going to need to make my RPM patches follow it, that´s all :)
13:06 pmichaud sounds good.  :-)
13:06 pmichaud But I really hope the whole install process gets a good refactor rather than us just plastering more slop on top of it to make things work.
13:07 pmichaud (It's a hope, not an expectation, alas.)
13:07 wayland76 Well, I´ve been talking to kid51
13:08 pmichaud excellent
13:08 wayland76 My hope all along has been to make the Rakudo install process use any relevant and useful bits from the parrot install process
13:08 pmichaud Please, no.
13:08 wayland76 And he said that you said that the Parrot install process needs reworking
13:08 pmichaud In some ways I think that's the wrong direction.
13:09 pmichaud should we switch this discussion to #parrot ?
13:09 wayland76 Ok, although I´ll need to go to bed sometime soon.  I´ll be there in a minute
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13:19 pmurias wayland76: re keep on disk, doing two multiplications is likely (way) faster then doing a disk lookup
13:19 wayland76 pmurias: Yes, I wasn´t following the thread closely enough :)
13:23 stDavid joined #perl6
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13:32 Util What is Perl 6 equiv of Perl 5's $::foo and &::bar? Is the bare :: shortcut for main:: still around?
13:33 mizioumt joined #perl6
13:34 masak Util: I don't believe so, but safest bet is to check the synopses.
13:34 moritz_ maybe the $*foo thing?
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13:37 masak surely not an exact equivalent?
13:37 moritz_ no
13:37 moritz_ but it used to mean "look in the global namespace"
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13:42 pmichaud GLOBAL::
13:44 masak THERMONUCLEAR::
13:44 Util PEACE::
13:44 masak :)
13:44 pmichaud I don't think there's a shortcut for GLOBAL::  .
13:45 pmichaud and GLOBAL:: is really CORE::GLOBAL
13:47 Util Maybe binding (:=) symbols in the current package to the same-named symbols in GLOBAL:: at the top of a module will be a good equivalent Perl 6 idiom?
13:48 azawawi joined #perl6
13:49 azawawi hi, is ctrl-shift-1 an easy shortcut to use on uk/german keyboards?
13:49 moritz_ better than Ctrl+~ in any case
13:50 azawawi moritz_: thx
13:51 alester joined #perl6
13:51 alester Anyone know who texted me about admin access for pmichaud from 201 area code?
13:52 stDavid_ joined #perl6
13:54 pmichaud alester: particle
13:55 alester aha
13:55 alester I have never seen his phone #
13:55 pmurias azawawi: ctrl-shift-1 is ctrl-! ?
13:56 azawawi pmurias: yeah..
13:56 Gothmog_ joined #perl6
13:57 rgs on french keyboards you need a shift to type 1, so shift-1 isn't possible. (or hit both shift keys ?)
13:57 pmurias azawawi: re quick fix animated gifs, $foo = -1 should be changed into my $foo = -1; and if(1) {...} into if 1 { }
13:57 pmurias rgs: what's more important then 1?
13:58 moritz_ 0
13:59 azawawi pmurias: sure but what if you had $foo == 1... it is a bit generic i know.
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14:03 masak perldoc.perl.org is one of the nicest-layouted Perl pages on the Web.
14:03 masak but what happened to the bullet list here? http://perldoc.perl.org/per​lsyn.html#Switch-statements
14:04 moritz_ =item o
14:04 moritz_ ...
14:04 rgs fixed in bleda
14:04 rgs blead
14:04 jaldhar joined #perl6
14:04 rgs (with =item *)
14:05 pmurias azawawi: fixing $foo == 1 is hard as it's need some value in $foo for the comparision to be usefull
14:05 masak oh, good.
14:08 moritz_ rgs: btw I found your post on the future of perl 5 very interesting, thank you
14:08 rgs thanks
14:09 masak URL?
14:10 moritz_ http://consttype.blogspot.com/​2009/06/future-of-perl-5.html
14:10 masak dz
14:12 wayland76 'night all
14:19 azawawi pmurias: here is the new try { } quick fix which only appears when you have no std errors - http://feather.perl6.nl/~azawa​wi/quick_fix/quick_fix_ani.gif
14:26 moritz_ azawawi: $foo is a variable, not an attribute (in your animation)
14:27 azawawi moritz_: i know. :)
14:27 azawawi moritz_: but im lazy :)
14:30 pmurias use !!! instead of #XXX-implement
14:32 azawawi pmurias: for # (TODO|XXX...etc) - implement; i think we can have that configurable in Padre somewhere
14:32 pmurias rakudo: !!!
14:32 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 2, near "!!!"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
14:33 pmurias pugs: sub foo {!!!};foo();
14:33 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Unimplemented stub called␤    at /tmp/BxPjH9moyb line 1, column 15-20␤       /tmp/BxPjH9moyb line 1, column 10-13␤»
14:34 azawawi pmurias: what's !!! ?
14:34 pmurias azawawi: die, as this thing is not implemented yet
14:34 moritz_ it's the "this is a stub" marker
14:34 pmurias the lethal variant
14:34 moritz_ right
14:35 moritz_ ... is fail()
14:35 moritz_ !!! is die()
14:35 moritz_ and ??? is warn()
14:35 moritz_ or so.
14:35 azawawi really? :)
14:35 * azawawi learnt a lot of Perl 6 while doing implementing quick fixes...
14:36 azawawi s/learnt/learned/
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14:58 jaldhar take a look at this code:  repeat { state $count = 0; } until ++$count == 5;
14:58 jaldhar rakudo gives: Symbol '$count' not predeclared in <anonymous>
14:59 jaldhar is that right?
14:59 sri_kraih_ joined #perl6
14:59 moritz_ that's right
15:00 moritz_ because the scope of $count is limited to the block it's declared in
15:00 spx2 ~
15:00 s1n1 am i reading that snippet right, an infinite loop? or are state variables only assigned like that once?
15:00 moritz_ s1n1: it's a compile time error, nothing else.
15:01 s1n_yapc moritz_: but i was referring to the intent of the repeat {} loop
15:01 moritz_ rakudo: while 1 { state $x = 0; last if $x++ > 5 }; say $x
15:01 s1n_yapc in that it does it repeatedly reassign $count to 0?
15:01 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/zvUygAeK4O:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3225)␤»
15:01 jaldhar moritz_: so the repeat...until is not "part" of the block?  but why is for or while different?  (or is it?)
15:01 moritz_ rakudo: while 1 { state $x = 0; say $x; last if $x++ > 5 };
15:01 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤»
15:01 moritz_ jaldhar: it's not different
15:02 jaldhar s1n_yapc: no only the first time
15:02 s1n_yapc moritz_: okay
15:02 moritz_ jaldhar: a block extends from its opening brace to its closing brace
15:02 moritz_ no Perl 5-like exceptions
15:03 jaldhar moritz_: ok.  I was thinking about things like for < 1 2 3 4 5 > -> $count { say $count; }
15:05 moritz_ jaldhar: that's something else
15:05 moritz_ there -> $count is a signature
15:05 moritz_ which introduces $count as a formal parameter for that block
15:06 jaldhar I see
15:08 pmichaud (the arrow is part of the block, not part of the 'for')
15:09 moritz_ right
15:09 huf how do blocks differ from anonymous subs?
15:09 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = -> $a { $a * $a }; say $x.WHAT
15:09 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Block()␤»
15:09 moritz_ huf: return() stops at sub boundaries, but not at block boundaries
15:10 pmichaud rakudo: my $x = sub ($a) { $a * $a };  say $x.WHAT;
15:10 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Sub()␤»
15:10 huf so you cant do for @list sub { .. } ?
15:10 moritz_ huf: no
15:10 pmichaud std:  for @list sub ($_) { ... }
15:10 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Missing block at /tmp/GGe2qS4QtC line 1:␤------> [32mfor @list [31msub ($_) { ... }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    parameterized block␤      standard stopper␤ terminator␤Other potential difficulties:␤  Variable
15:10 p6eval ..@list is not pred…
15:11 moritz_ huf: 'for' has a grammar rule that expects a block afterwards
15:11 huf mhm
15:11 pmichaud it wants a block, not a sub declaration.
15:11 moritz_ you can do it with map, though
15:11 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b c>.map: sub ($x) { uc $x }
15:11 TimToady rehi
15:11 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«ABC␤»
15:11 * TimToady is in despair at the backlog...
15:12 huf but $a = -> {}; and the you can do $a(); correct?
15:12 moritz_ huf: correct
15:12 TimToady correct
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15:33 masak rakudo: given 42 -> $foo { say $foo }
15:33 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«42␤»
15:34 masak rakudo: my @a = 1..3; given @a -> $a, $b, $c { say $a }
15:34 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 3 params expected␤in Main (/tmp/mYGyO3r5rL:1)␤»
15:35 TimToady rakudo: my @a = 1..3; given @a -> [$a,$b,$c] { say $a }
15:35 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "-> [$a,$b,"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
15:35 TimToady that one should work
15:35 masak std: my @a = 1..3; given @a -> [$a,$b,$c] { say $a }
15:35 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
15:35 moritz_ well, rakudo doesn't do any parameter unpacking yet
15:36 * masak looks forward to parameter unpacking
15:36 TimToady parameter unpacking is the road to tree matching
15:36 masak std: my [$a,$b,$c] = [1..3];
15:36 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed my at /tmp/MYGV8rIMyu line 1:␤------> [32mmy [31m[$a,$b,$c] = [1..3];[0m␤    expecting scoped declarator␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
15:37 TimToady [] is not a signatre
15:37 TimToady *ture
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15:43 masak TimToady: so the thing between '->' and '{' is not a signature?
15:45 TimToady it is a signature, by context
15:45 TimToady it wouldn't be a signature without the -> in front
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15:52 PerlJam TimToady: so, how do you do the array unpacking as masak intended?
15:53 TimToady basically you bind the inside of [] or () as a subsignature
15:53 TimToady they're really much the same
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15:53 TimToady the [] is more like documentation that you only expect a list
15:54 masak that's all very well, but how to write it?
15:54 TimToady you already have signature binding, how hard can it be to call itself recursively?
15:56 * masak follows not
15:57 PerlJam yeah, I think I need some syntax or something.
15:58 masak yes, my thought exactly.
15:58 masak we're syntax-deprived simpletons, here. :)
15:59 moritz_ Perl 6: syntax driven development
16:02 PerlJam at a guess,  :([$a,$b,$c]) = [1..3];    # not sure if I need := though
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16:02 PerlJam (not sure of anything really, this is just what my memory tells me right now)
16:03 * PerlJam checks the synopsis
16:03 huf can you do something like erlang and its ilk have?
16:03 huf take apart a complex data structure in one line
16:06 moritz_ like haskell's pattern matching?
16:06 PerlJam huf: probably.  That sounds like what we're talking about now.
16:07 masak yes. it's especially attractive in for loops, I think.
16:07 masak std: my @a = [[1, 2], [3, 4]]; for @a -> [$a, $b] { say ($a => $b).fmt }
16:07 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 39m␤»
16:08 masak \o/
16:08 PerlJam std: :([$a,$b,$c]) = [1..3]
16:08 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
16:08 masak std: my :([$a,$b,$c]) = [1..3]
16:08 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Malformed my at /tmp/KJ7D9vzRZq line 1:␤------> [32mmy [31m:([$a,$b,$c]) = [1..3][0m␤    expecting scoped declarator␤FAILED 00:02 35m␤»
16:08 masak :(
16:08 moritz_ my ($a, $b, $c) = 1..3;
16:09 PerlJam moritz_: he wants the more complicated version of that though :)
16:10 PerlJam masak: I think :($a,$b,$c) doesn't need the my
16:10 masak moritz_: given @a = [[1,2],[3,4]], how do I assign directly from @a into four new variables?
16:11 masak PerlJam: oh. that's good news, in that case.
16:11 masak PerlJam: if they don't need the my, how do I express an 'our' equivalent? :)
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16:11 PerlJam masak: can you do that in subroutine signatures?
16:12 huf is this just in sub signatures?
16:12 viklund o/
16:14 * PerlJam doesn't know if :() can be used in an lvalue context though
16:14 jaldhar come on guys you need to implement :-) somehow
16:15 PerlJam all of the examples in the synopses I've found have :() as rvalue
16:15 masak jaldhar: write a module!
16:15 amoc std:  sub foo ([$a, $b]) { ... }
16:15 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
16:17 azawawi joined #perl6
16:17 azawawi home sweet home :)
16:18 PerlJam rakudo: sub postfix:< :-) >($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" :-)
16:18 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«jaldhar : happy?␤»
16:19 masak huh, don't postfix ops require unspace nowadays?
16:19 PerlJam oh .. maybe.  If so, bug.
16:19 masak an already-reported one, I suspect.
16:20 masak std: sub postfix:< :-) >($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" :-)
16:20 p6eval std 27182:  ( no output )
16:20 PerlJam rakudo++
16:20 masak note that STD.pm chickened out on that one.
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16:20 masak it didn't say "ok".
16:21 PerlJam it didn't complain either.  That makes rakudo right  ;)
16:21 masak I'm not saying you're right. :P
16:22 jaldhar PerlJam: awesome!
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16:23 PerlJam btw, when I was writing that example for jaldhar, I wanted to write "suffix" rather than "postfix".  Am I the only one who thinks that way?
16:24 masak PerlJam: yes. :P
16:24 amoc rakudo: sub postfix:< PFIX >($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" PFIX
16:24 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«jaldhar : happy?␤»
16:25 TimToady that's no good
16:25 jaldhar fwiw postfix sounds better to me
16:25 jaldhar suffix means eg -ing -ed etc.
16:25 TimToady std: sub postfix:< PFIX >($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" PFIX
16:25 huf you could impement those too :D
16:25 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/5Z3yTfkubI line 1:␤------> [32m>($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" [31mPFIX[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤
16:25 p6eval ..terminator␤FAILED 00:05 45…
16:25 PerlJam jaldhar: prefix/suffix make a natural pair for me.
16:26 TimToady std: sub postfix:< :-) >($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" :-)
16:26 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/cOYifZWMBl line 1:␤------> [32m>($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar" [31m:-)[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤
16:26 p6eval ..terminator␤FAILED 00:05 45m…
16:26 last moritz_: I'm too lazy to prove this, but it appears that just as there are only 22 possible last two digits (base 10) for squares, there are 44 possible last two hex digits for a square.  That should provide a very fast test to filter out 82% of all positive integers as  non-squares (presuming you can easily get at the binary representation of your number).
16:26 TimToady std: sub postfix:< :-) >($x) { say "$x : happy?" };  "jaldhar"\ :-)
16:26 p6eval std 27182: OUTPUT«ok 00:05 45m␤»
16:26 PerlJam okay, two bugs then
16:26 TimToady lunch &
16:27 masak I'm not submitting, because I believe both are known/submitted.
16:27 PerlJam yeah, I was going to look just in case
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16:30 masak PerlJam: good idea.
16:31 masak rakudo: "foo" ~~ /foo/; sub bar() { say $/ }; bar
16:31 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
16:32 masak what if I want $/ to be $OUTER::/ in a sub?
16:33 PerlJam isn't OUTER for lexical scopes anyway?  I thought $/ was dynamically scoped.
16:34 PerlJam (well, supposed to be dynamically scoped even if rakudo doesn't think so)
16:42 PerlJam oh no, looks like $/ is lexically scoped.
16:42 * PerlJam really needs to use perl 6 more
16:42 moritz_ isn't it context<rw>?
16:42 masak in the interests of release-early, let me announce Grampa, an XPath matcher for Match objects: http://github.com/masak/grampa
16:43 masak s/me/us/, viklund++ is in it too.
16:43 azawawi masak: hi
16:43 moritz_ grampa = grammar paths?
16:43 masak azawawi: greetings.
16:43 masak moritz_: aye.
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16:44 azawawi masak: I am looking for Larry's recent YAPC speech. Any links/slides/video would be appreciated.
16:45 acajou me would also be interested...
16:45 masak azawawi: I'm as in the dark as you about that.
16:45 masak I'm not on YAPC|NA.
16:45 acajou s#me#/me# :)
16:45 moritz_ usually they take much more time to appear somewhere
16:45 azawawi masak: so we're in the same ship; cool :)
16:45 acajou I wish some were Webcast...
16:46 masak azawawi: yes, so let me know if you find something... :)
16:46 * acajou too!
16:46 * azawawi will do for sure
16:47 masak afk # food
16:47 azawawi hmmm... PerlCritic quick fixes or Perl 6 rename var / extract method :)
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16:49 masak azawawi: the totally unbiased answer of this channel is "Perl 6 rename var". :)
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17:21 pmichaud azawawi/masak:  Larry's talk did not have slides this year.
17:21 pmichaud It was completely live demo.
17:22 azawawi pmichaud: thx
17:24 azawawi pmichaud: who wrote the 'padre' dumper for PGE highlighter?
17:24 perlmongo joined #perl6
17:24 pmichaud azawawi: some hacker called "pmichaud"
17:24 pmichaud s/called/nicknamed/
17:24 pugs_svn r27183 | lwall++ | [CORE] add Cat type
17:25 pmichaud TimToady: is the "Cat" type meant to chase down the Rats?
17:26 TimToady it's meant to be a virtual string
17:26 pmichaud forgot my smiley :-|
17:26 TimToady cats play with string, after all
17:26 azawawi pmichaud: after enabling it in Padre Perl 6; i found that it does not generate any 'pod_comment' or 'hash_comment' records.
17:27 pmichaud I think we're not currently capturing pod_comments
17:27 azawawi pmichaud: it is really super-fast... pmichaud++
17:28 nErVe joined #perl6
17:31 masak what's a virtual string? I thought we had enough issues with our physical strings... :P
17:31 pmichaud The physical strings had insufficient virtuality.
17:31 pmichaud :-P
17:32 pmichaud which is yet another issue with physical strings, which is why the virtual strings are addressing that issue....
17:32 pmichaud obviously I have been too long at yapc|10 and my brain is now tapioca.
17:34 moritz_ and you learned about all these new layers of indirection that you have to implement? ;-)
17:34 pmichaud it's abstraction levels, all the way down.
17:34 masak what's wrong with this picture? http://news.perlfoundation.org/2009/06/
17:34 PerlJam it's not a picture at all?  :)
17:35 masak PerlJam: well, the thing that hits your retinas is. but s/picture/page/, if that makes you see it.
17:35 PerlJam But the word "no" appears far too often in regards to progress.
17:36 masak I was referring to the posts numbering.
17:36 PerlJam oh, yeah
17:36 PerlJam that too
17:36 masak OTOH, this explains why I thought posts IX and X were missing last time.
17:42 szabgab azawawi, do you think the parrot based syntax highlighter is fast enough for use ?
17:44 pugs_svn r27184 | moritz++ | [t] simplify a test to not use outer lexicals in classes
17:44 pugs_svn r27185 | moritz++ | [t] move oo/class_inheritance_become_infinite_loop.t to spec/
17:44 moritz_ the file that I just moved also causes errors in rakudo
17:44 azawawi szabgab: yeah it is very fast; but ofcourse we lose STD's error reporting if we use it.
17:44 moritz_ with an error I haven't seen before
17:44 s1n1 joined #perl6
17:44 moritz_ "Null PMC access in get_string()
17:44 moritz_ current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;register' pc 654 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:434)
17:45 moritz_ "
17:45 szabgab azawawi, then we should try to generalize it to be able to highlight any parrot based syntax
17:45 szabgab and we are on the right track to world domination
17:46 azawawi szabgab: sure once we get p6 refactoring working first...
17:46 szabgab ok, so tomorrow?
17:46 szabgab or next week ?
17:46 azawawi szabgab: no idea really :)
17:48 explorer joined #perl6
17:50 huf is anyone working on p6 vim integration?
17:50 viklund huf: how do you mean?
17:50 moritz_ huf: literal++ did some very good work
17:51 moritz_ huf: I don't know what else you'd need
17:51 masak huf: there's a perl6.vim in the Pugs repository.
17:51 moritz_ http://github.com/hinrik/vim-perl is the up-to-date location
17:51 huf hmm.. padre has its own editor, right? no way to embed vim/emacs?
17:52 szabgab huf, not likely but we have plugins for both vi and emacs mode
17:52 huf eh :*
17:52 huf :( i mean
17:52 szabgab just neither of them really for production use
17:52 moritz_ but perl6.vim is pretty good for syntax hilighting
17:53 szabgab yeah, I guess it is better for the vim addicts among us :-)
17:53 moritz_ rakudo: say (-8) % 5
17:53 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«2␤»
17:53 huf i just dont see why we need another editor when there are two that can do everything :D
17:53 pugs_svn r27186 | lwall++ | [CORE] add Test::EXPORT::DEFAULT entries
17:53 pugs_svn r27186 | lwall++ | [Cursor] import from DEFAULT to fix 'use Foo::Bar; use Foo;' problem
17:54 s1n1 joined #perl6
17:54 PerlJam if padre were more vim-like, I'd probably use it more.
17:54 moritz_ huf: they don't make coffee.
17:54 huf moritz_: is that a challenge? :D
17:54 jaldhar joined #perl6
17:54 masak huf: writing your own plugins in Perl is quite an incentive.
17:54 barney joined #perl6
17:54 moritz_ huf: no, but you're surely invited to view it as such ;-)
17:54 huf :))))
17:54 szabgab huf, the simple answer is that neither vim nor emacs fits most of the people out there
17:54 huf odd people
17:54 huf ;)
17:55 justatheory joined #perl6
17:55 huf o well, that means no padre and automatic refactoring and whatnot for me
17:55 szabgab yeah, but that's about 99.37% of the (potential) user
17:55 szabgab =-
17:55 szabgab +-
17:56 masak "szabgab turned to speak entirely in symbols"
17:56 szabgab but we would welcome someone to fix the vi plugin to make it really awesome
17:56 huf oh, i understand the need for a full-featured IDE by the time p6 is ocmplete
17:56 PerlJam szabgab: it sounds like you just said padre isn't for power users as they all use vim/emacs anyway
17:56 huf i just dont like to use more than one program for one purpose
17:57 huf editing text -> vim
17:57 szabgab power users can use Padre but I think most of them can also use vimacs
17:57 huf yeah, we'll probably cope
17:57 szabgab huf, funny I used to use similar  explanation why I am using gvim on windows
17:58 PerlJam szabgab: I was just thinking that many of padre's cool features are geared towards power users, but maybe they're geared more towards making "ordinary" people power users.
17:58 szabgab but then I decided I can try to stop using it in order to build padre
17:58 pmichaud a thought:  perhaps the purpose of an ide should be to help people become more powerful :-)
17:59 PerlJam unix is still my ide of choice :)
17:59 szabgab I think my primary intention is to make Padre really good for beginners. As I am not good enough to build such a tool, the way to do that is to make Padre interesting for power users who in turn will make Padre really awesome for everyone
17:59 PerlJam szabgab++
18:00 huf nah. they'll make another vim :D
18:00 szabgab huf, in a way yes I guess
18:00 Molaf joined #perl6
18:00 szabgab but with a default editing mode similar to notepad and co
18:00 PerlJam huf: vim is nice, but there are some things I wish it had that it does not.
18:00 huf PerlJam: yep
18:00 PerlJam huf: If textmate and vim had a kid, that would be the perfect editor.
18:01 pugs_svn r27187 | moritz++ | [t] merge syntax/decl_vs_assign_prec.t into spec/
18:01 moritz_ Q: how do you know you're in a geek channel? A: the people around you talk about text editors having kids
18:02 szabgab PerlJam, I'd really like to see a list of all the awesome features of Textmate,  preferably in the form of open tickets on http://padre.perlide.org/
18:02 PerlJam szabgab: padre seems to have all of the awesome features I care about (except that it's not enough like vim :)
18:02 szabgab and/or we have a page listing features of padre that are linked to tickets
18:03 szabgab oh, nice to hear that
18:03 huf just make it an option to embed vim instead of padre's own editor
18:03 huf there's a simple ide that does that, dunno if it could be done in this case
18:03 szabgab huf, rindolf shopped around for embedding vim but did not come up with any solution
18:04 szabgab so for now the Padre::Plugin::Vi is the best bet
18:04 szabgab it has serious missing features but it does have the two modes of vim
18:05 bacek joined #perl6
18:07 jferrero joined #perl6
18:08 moritz_ 621 files in t/spec/, 30 left to be moved.
18:09 masak moritz_: I just want to take this opportunity to say that I think your work on the test suite has been amazing.
18:09 explorer joined #perl6
18:09 moritz_ thanks
18:09 * moritz_ happy
18:09 dalek rakudo: 0e0671a | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
18:09 dalek rakudo: another passing integration test
18:09 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​e0671a13c6f2f21613eb18a458222febd4c7146
18:10 pugs_svn r27188 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Fix the Greek autoincrement test I wrote past my bed time
18:10 KyleHa joined #perl6
18:11 masak KyleHa: yes, never autoincrement Greeks past your bedtime. :)
18:11 fdgkldgjfg joined #perl6
18:11 KyleHa "x" means "hex", folks.
18:11 phenny KyleHa: 06:50Z <moritz_> tell KyleHa yes, it should be a runtime error
18:12 fdgkldgjfg where is perl 6?
18:12 KyleHa phenny: Thank you!!
18:12 moritz_ fdgkldgjfg: wherever you install it ;-)
18:12 PerlJam rakudo: "Perl 6 is right here!".say
18:12 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Perl 6 is right here!␤»
18:12 masak rakudo: say "fdgkldgjfg: I'm right here!"
18:12 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«fdgkldgjfg: I'm right here!␤»
18:12 masak PerlJam: great minds think alike.
18:12 fdgkldgjfg rakudo fails, i want a perl6 that can pass spec
18:12 PerlJam indeed :)
18:13 masak fdgkldgjfg: yeah, know the feeling.
18:13 * moritz_ too
18:13 huf o/
18:13 masak \o
18:13 fdgkldgjfg i know, i'll make my own
18:13 huf i want a time-machine
18:13 masak yes, you do that.
18:13 masak I want a cat.
18:13 huf among other problems, it'd solve this
18:13 PerlJam fdgkldgjfg: just wait in a cryogenic chamber for a while.
18:13 huf altho it'd stifle p6 development
18:13 huf if we could just bring back future versions
18:13 fdgkldgjfg freeze myself up in the mountains?
18:13 moritz_ fdgkldgjfg: feel free, and tell us where your project lives
18:14 fdgkldgjfg i will call it perlthon.
18:14 masak fdgkldgjfg: I'd love to have another Perl 6 implementation.
18:14 huf masak: get a cat. seriously. they are better than a million hotdogs.
18:14 masak huf: I know!
18:14 fdgkldgjfg masak: why, is rakudo bad iyo?
18:14 KyleHa Spec says "Decrement of 'A00' should fail".  What does that mean?  How do I test for that "fail"?
18:14 masak fdgkldgjfg: "bad" is a strong word.
18:14 PerlJam fdgkldgjfg: we just don't have enough of them.  There's only 3 (I think)
18:14 fdgkldgjfg make a motivational post out of it?
18:15 fdgkldgjfg masak: explain (i'm interested)
18:15 moritz_ KyleHa: I assume it will return some undef value
18:15 huf dont more implementations mean more implementation-dependent clusterfucks? like we have with c/c++ compilers?
18:15 huf ;)))
18:15 moritz_ fdgkldgjfg: read masak's blog, he often points out some weaknesses
18:15 masak fdgkldgjfg: Rakudo keeps getting more and more great with every day. for real.
18:15 moritz_ fdgkldgjfg: as do I on my blog
18:15 masak fdgkldgjfg: but there are times when it still really sucks.
18:15 fdgkldgjfg please post a link, i'm bored at work
18:15 xinming joined #perl6
18:15 moritz_ http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/
18:16 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/
18:16 masak why, thanks. :)
18:16 fdgkldgjfg sweet. i tried reading yegge's blog earlier... it actually made me go back to working
18:20 masak fdgkldgjfg: we'll get you un-bored at work in no time!
18:20 pmichaud moritz_: (RT #66826)   the patch contains some executable code at the bottom... is that intentional, or is it to be stripped out when applying the patch?
18:20 moritz_ fdgkldgjfg: also http://planetsix.perl.org/ is a nice blog aggregator, covering most Perl 6 blogs out there
18:21 fdgkldgjfg a king among men, you are
18:21 fdgkldgjfg and when my boss catches me i am merely researching
18:21 moritz_ pmichaud: to be stipped (actually forgot to remove it)
18:21 KyleHa fdgkldgjfg: How do you pronounce your nick?
18:21 masak fdgkldgjfg: yes, "future technologies in computing". :)
18:21 pmichaud moritz_: okay, thanks.
18:21 fdgkldgjfg fitzkerpatrick
18:21 masak KyleHa: as it sounds, of course. :P
18:21 pmichaud I suspect the problem is that the code for operator overloading tries to adjust the optable
18:22 viklund fdgkldgjfg: :D
18:22 moritz_ I also tried it with an already-parsed op (infix:<eqv>, same result)
18:22 pmichaud right
18:22 pmichaud I think that's the same issue
18:22 PerlJam masak: I just saw your post regarding 3d svg from Jun 19.    Very cool.
18:22 masak fdgkldgjfg: I think I'll call you "Fitz" for short.
18:23 masak PerlJam: thank you! I'm halfway to doing the next level of cool with regards to that. interactive 3d SVG.
18:23 moritz_ masak: do you know if current browsers support that at all?
18:23 masak moritz_: yes, I think most do.
18:24 masak SVG is fairly deployed nowadays.
18:24 masak and screw the rest. :P
18:24 sbp who maintains p6eval again?
18:24 sbp (no information from /whois)
18:24 * moritz_ mostly
18:25 * masak very little
18:25 * viklund not at all
18:25 sbp moritz_, masak, !viklund: would it be possible to have it inhabit another channel?
18:25 * masak thinks so
18:25 moritz_ sbp: sure, if the inhabitants of the other channel don't oppose that
18:25 masak unless all the inhabitants are also bots.
18:25 sbp it's my channel so they'll like it or face the jolly fist of doom
18:26 sbp or both, more than likely. and yes, they're mainly bots
18:26 masak bots don't have a say.
18:27 sbp don't be so sure; they can already form unions
18:27 p6eval joined #perl6
18:27 * masak read 'they can already form unicorns'
18:28 PerlJam masak: that proves it ... you live in a fantasy land.
18:28 PerlJam (or you've done too many drugs ;)
18:28 masak that reminds me. I've forgotten to feed my unicorn today.
18:29 masak also, I hear Perl 6 is very big on the Unicorn standard.
18:30 sbp hehe
18:31 viklund haha, ha, aaa...
18:31 pugs_svn r27189 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Added some more greek autoincrement tests
18:31 * masak slaps viklund
18:31 masak @slap viklund
18:31 * lambdabot pokes viklund  in the eye
18:32 viklund hey!
18:32 * masak hides
18:38 eternaleye joined #perl6
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18:39 stDavid joined #perl6
18:40 moritz_ rakudo: say  "\x[391]\x[3c9]";
18:40 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Αω␤»
18:41 moritz_ rakudo: say "\x[392]\x[3b1]"
18:41 p6eval rakudo 10f223: OUTPUT«Βα␤»
18:42 pugs_svn r27190 | lwall++ | [STD] unbreak the check for do {} while
18:46 athomason joined #perl6
18:58 sbp confusing error message:
18:58 sbp rakudo: my @a = 1...{ $_ >= 3 ?? () !! $_ + 1 }
18:58 p6eval rakudo 0e0671: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Method 'postcircumfix:{ }' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤»
18:58 sbp code from t/spec/S03-operators/series.t
19:00 masak sbp: a very common error message, if you ask me.
19:00 masak it means you're trying to index undef.
19:00 moritz_ sbp: that's because rakudo doesn't parse infix:<...> correctly
19:01 moritz_ sbp: I have a patch here that changes that, but it's not helpful either
19:01 moritz_ because it then says "null PMC access in find_method"
19:01 sbp masak: where does the indexing take place?
19:01 sbp moritz_: ah, fair enough. no problem that ... isn't implemented
19:01 sbp was just entirely baffled by the error
19:02 sbp I'm mainly waiting for the sequence guessing 1, 3, 5 ... and so forth
19:02 sbp just because it's going to be a fun thing to demonstrate to people
19:03 masak sbp: I don't know.
19:03 sbp depending on whether the level of smarts it has exceeds people's boredom limitation... :-)
19:03 sbp which, thinking about it, is probably quite unlikely
19:03 sbp especially due to http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/
19:04 sw1sh left #perl6
19:04 moritz_ sbp: the sequence guessing will be very boring, because it covers only constant differences and factors
19:05 sbp so, not even prime numbers?
19:06 moritz_ no.
19:06 sbp so ... isn't even going to be as powerful as ^1?$|^(11+?)\1+$? :-)
19:06 moritz_ that's a good task for a module
19:06 sbp :-)
19:07 TimToady std: do { s/.// } while $_;
19:07 p6eval std 27190: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Obsolete use of do...while; in Perl 6 please use repeat...while instead at /tmp/8bLJkBM9Ea line 1:␤------> [32mdo { s/.// } while $_[31m;[0m␤FAILED 00:04 37m␤»
19:11 stDavid joined #perl6
19:25 stDavid joined #perl6
19:26 TimToady n
19:27 masak
19:31 lichtkind isnt :M file modification time - script start?
19:32 moritz_ it is, see S32::IO
19:34 TimToady well, that's just how it was copied over from P5; not sure forcing it into that syntax really makes sense in P6
19:36 lichtkind moritz_: i red that Syn but oh wait its numers not timepoints
19:49 ejs joined #perl6
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20:59 masak [particle]: ping
21:07 sjohnson masak: you there?
21:07 masak sjohnson: yes, for a while longer.
21:07 masak then I'm going to bed.
21:08 lichtkind moritz_: cached trait bedeited memoized?
21:09 sjohnson masak: isn't perldoc somewhat close to perls commandline help?
21:09 PerlJam "bedeited"?
21:09 moritz_ lichtkind: ENOPARSE
21:09 masak sjohnson: not sure I understand the question.
21:09 masak perldoc is a command-line tool for getting Perl help, yes.
21:10 masak it's also a subdomain to perl.org
21:10 sjohnson oh, it was the blog i read
21:10 sjohnson about how you thought 1) an irb thing would be nice and 2) a command-line help like ruby
21:10 lichtkind moritz_: eno? I HAz found it now in syn6 now anyway :)
21:10 masak sjohnson: yes, but perldoc is Perl 5 only. I'm talking about Perl 6.
21:10 sjohnson gotcha
21:10 masak sjohnson: and my vision for u4x is only partly overlapping with perldoc.
21:11 sjohnson well, just so you know, i agreed with everything you wrote
21:11 sjohnson i would also like to see those things
21:11 moritz_ lichtkind: that meant "I couldn't parse your sentence"
21:11 masak good. let's build it together.
21:11 sjohnson well, i would offer my services in any way i can
21:12 lichtkind moritz_: understood but i dunno the call ENOPARSE, i asked for meaning of sub trait cached
21:13 masak sjohnson: do you have Pugs commit access?
21:13 sjohnson nope
21:13 masak sjohnson: could you /msg me your email address?
21:13 sjohnson i can't write in Haskell either
21:14 moritz_ there's much more than pugs to the pugs repo
21:14 moritz_ including documentation project(s)
21:14 masak not necessary to know Haskell.
21:17 masak sjohnson: there should be an email in your inbox now.
21:17 masak sjohnson: welcome aboard!
21:17 sjohnson thanks
21:17 sjohnson !
21:17 masak sjohnson: if you're free at 19 UTC tomorrow, there will be an inspirational meeting on #perl6-soc that you could come to.
21:18 masak we'll be talking about grok, the tool that will deliver u4x.
21:18 masak now I've got to dash.
21:46 bacek joined #perl6
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22:09 lichtkind laydies: Appendix A has now 400 entries
22:10 eternaleye joined #perl6
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23:32 tarpsocks joined #perl6
23:32 tarpsocks hey
23:33 sjohnson hi
23:35 pugs_svn r27191 | lwall++ | [STD] more error errors
23:37 TimToady ho
23:37 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
23:39 xomas joined #perl6
23:44 sjohnson so... TimToady, is Perl community suggestions still in the works?
23:44 sjohnson i think string editing via $string[3] type access, would stop the Python-based whiners
23:44 sjohnson also also, the Perl-based whines (me) too ;)
23:46 Whiteknight joined #perl6
23:47 sjohnson using subst to grab 1 char, using s// for 1 char, and split (//, $string) is kind of tedious for certain applications :[

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