Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-07-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:19 azawawi hi
00:19 lambdabot azawawi: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
00:19 azawawi @messages
00:19 lambdabot literal said 3h 47m 31s ago: pong
00:19 lambdabot literal said 3h 33m 21s ago: I'm working on a couple of things, but they're not ready just yet
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01:08 azawawi @tell lichtkind what license are the perl 6 tablets using?
01:08 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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02:40 Util In the S02 table on "generalized adverbial form of Pair notation", the last line reads:
02:40 Util a => %foo<a>        %foo<a>:p
02:40 Util Why `p`? Is it a typo?
02:42 PerlJam I think it means "interpret %foo<a> as a Pair"
02:44 azawawi @tell literal I took the liberty of extending grok (at runtime) in my Padre Perl 6 plugin to support more help from Perl foundation wikis, http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/5994
02:44 lambdabot Consider it noted.
02:55 Util PerlJam: thanks; I will sleep on that.
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03:07 s1n pmichaud: you didn't miss much at dfcuug
03:07 s1n dfwuug
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04:05 azawawi ping
04:07 azawawi moritz_: I added more help from Perl 6 wiki tablets; now you can find help about Perl 6 operators... Not much but better than nothing :) http://feather.perl6.nl/~azawawi/perl6_help_with_tablets.png
04:07 azawawi @tell masak any update on u4x?
04:07 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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07:14 dalek rakudo: 02d0ed2 | pmichaud++ |  (2 files):
07:14 dalek rakudo: Replace string-based typecheck with class-object based typecheck.
07:14 dalek rakudo: This appears to avoid the -G bugs for Rakudo, which appear to occur
07:14 dalek rakudo: due to something going wrong when do_dispatch (written in C) calls
07:14 dalek rakudo: !bindability_checker (PIR) which calls typeof_s_p opcode which
07:14 dalek rakudo: calls the 'name' vtable function which itself happens to be
07:14 dalek rakudo: overridden in PIR via a :vtable flagged sub.  Or something like that.
07:15 dalek rakudo: Anyway, we once again see that using string names as class identifiers
07:15 dalek rakudo: leads to trouble.  (Bad coder!  No biscuit!)
07:15 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/02d0ed20644bfe92a104f32efc7e6a48a8fabfa5
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07:19 moritz_ pmichaud: that makes t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/hash_ref.rakudo fail 7/32
07:19 moritz_ num.t 4/48
07:21 moritz_ lots of fallout, actually
07:21 moritz_ (with parrot r39973)
07:21 moritz_ on amd64 debian
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08:44 pmichaud moritz_: interesting, hash_ref.t works for me
08:44 pmichaud num.t also
08:44 moritz_ pmichaud: I aborted the spectest after seeing lots of fallout... should I restart and give you a complete output?
08:45 pmichaud make sure everything's clean :-)
08:45 pmichaud but yes, complete output is probably worthwhile
08:45 pmichaud no rush -- I'm heading to bed soon
08:45 moritz_ is realclean clean enough=
08:45 moritz_ s/=/?/
08:45 pmichaud usually it's clean enough, but sometimes it isn't.
08:45 pmichaud (in parrot)
08:45 pmichaud maybe remove the parrot/ dir and rebuild with --gen-parrot
08:46 moritz_ I'll do a git-clean -dfx
08:47 moritz_ ok, will take some time, I'll just paste the result later on
08:48 pmichaud I'll be up again in just a few hours
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09:21 moritz_ pmichaud: http://nopaste.snit.ch/17199
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12:01 murbarf hi
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12:01 moritz_ hello
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12:07 moritz_ it's quiet in here today, ENOMASAK ;-)
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12:50 wayland76 http://www.perl6-projects.org/ looks funny at 800x600 on Seamonkey (this is what I'm using).  If someone could pass the message to the appropriate person, that would be great :).  ["Funny looking" means that the boxes aren't side by side, but sort of scattered around the place :) )
12:50 lambdabot wayland76: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:53 pmurias moritz_: my newest GSoC blog post: http://pmurias.livejournal.com
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12:58 masak (and here's the unchanging URL, for the logs: http://pmurias.livejournal.com/1375.html )
12:58 lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:59 masak @messages
12:59 lambdabot azawawi said 8h 51m 12s ago: any update on u4x?
12:59 masak azawawi: yes, see logs of latest perl6-gsoc meeting.
13:08 skids pmurias: oprof is pretty good actually, once you get an arm around it.
13:09 pmurias i seemed pretty good but without a tutorial it's hard to understand all the myriad options
13:09 pmurias and sysprof is just modprobe a module and press two buttons
13:10 skids Well, first tell it you have no kernel image, assuming you don't.
13:10 skids The gui helps a bit, but can be a little confusing.
13:11 skids (Depends on what you want to profile, and what your CPU supports)
13:11 skids Then it's really a matter of telling it to print the call tree when examining the results.
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13:11 pmurias i just wanted to profile CPU usage
13:12 skids But what part of the cpu?
13:12 skids :-)
13:14 pmurias my understaning of lowlevel concepts is very limited
13:14 pmurias isn't the amount of time the cpu evaluated a given piece of code a resonable quality
13:14 pmurias * quantity
13:14 pmurias ?
13:15 skids Not really, because a lot of programs are bound up on L2 cache, not cycles.
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13:18 skids ouch.  my oprofile-gui got kicked because it depends on a versioned libanyevent-perl which conflicts with a custom libcoro-perl :-P
13:18 skids Which of course is SMOP-essential
13:18 skids bollocks!
13:21 skids ah update fixed.
13:24 skids pmurias: so what's a good mildew benchmark to test with?
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13:43 masak wow, seems people are approximating a consensus in the filetest thread. amazing!
13:44 skids pmurias: the SMOP_DISPATCH as a function stuff seems to break a make clean/build.  It's choosing the function in base.h but not compiling a functional version.
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13:57 pugs_svn r27501 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] add missing file
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14:02 skids__ well, it appears SMOP has a knack for crashing kernel while oprofile is running.  Probably due to the locking.
14:04 pmurias skids__: the locking is turned off
14:05 skids__ hrm.  well, something then.  Maybe I'll play with it later, gotta stay up and running at the moment.
14:06 pmurias skids__: what do you think would be a good way to gather profiling for SMOP?
14:07 skids__ I'm not much of a fan of building it in, but with the methods all going through the same "message" function I guess you have to.
14:09 PerlJam std: for 1..* _> @a { }
14:09 p6eval std 27501: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Missing block at /tmp/56pOJ4obBV line 1:␤------> [32mfor 1..* [31m_> @a { }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    parameterized block␤      standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
14:09 PerlJam std: for 1..* -> @a { }
14:09 p6eval std 27501: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
14:09 PerlJam std: for 1..* -> [@a] { }
14:09 p6eval std 27501: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
14:09 PerlJam std: for 1..* -> [@a[50]] { }
14:09 p6eval std 27501: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
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14:10 PerlJam std: for 1..* -> @a[50] { }
14:10 p6eval std 27501: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
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14:10 skids__ (unless there was a way to make a separate "message" sub for every SMOP_DISPATCH message.)
14:13 pmurias skids__: the message sub would have to be unique for every RI and method identifier combination?
14:15 skids__ pmurias: unless you didn't care about aliasing between RIs.
14:16 masak PerlJam: that's syntactically correct, but would fail at runtime.
14:16 skids__ At some point the information is good enough that you can say, "I know which one is the culprit here"
14:17 PerlJam masak: You mean in a particular implementation or in any perl 6 implementation?
14:18 masak PerlJam: you're asking each element to be an array of 50 elements.
14:18 masak but the elements aren't arrays, they're integers.
14:18 masak bam. type fail.
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14:19 PerlJam oh, you're only talking about that last one.
14:19 masak aye.
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14:21 masak moritz_: yes, I've been having sleep challenges lately due to finding way too interesting books close to my bed at night. I'm working to rectify this problem.
14:21 lucs masak: By finishing the books? :)
14:22 masak lucs: partly that, yes.
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14:53 masak I once amused myself by golfing down the 8-queens problem as much as I could in Perl 5. http://masak.org/carl/w/index.php/Perl:Golf -- it would be interesting to see someone do the same for Perl 6.
14:58 last Aiiii!  The last version (no whitespace) makes my brain hurt.
14:59 sbp masak: there's some strange &apos; double encoding at the top there
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15:10 M_o_C you don't have something like smolder for make spectest, do you?
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15:40 Su-Shee hi.
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15:50 sjohnson Su-Shee: hi
15:51 * Su-Shee flees from perl6 bashing. i didn't know how many people don't like it.
15:52 cbk_ Lexical 'self' not found?  What the heck does that mean and how can I fix it (of course I get this in MY perl 6 code)
15:53 masak Su-Shee: people fear the unknown.
15:53 TimToady it means you used syntax that implies a current object when there isn't a current object
15:54 cbk_ like this: if $listObj.checkList( %.petList, $pet) { ...}
15:54 cbk_ ?
15:54 TimToady that won't work outside a method
15:54 Su-Shee masak: it's annoying, but it's no use to get into an argument..
15:55 TimToady because %.petList means %(self.petList)
15:55 cbk_ I'm trying to pass %petList as a pramater
15:55 cbk_ ok
15:55 TimToady why did you put the .?
15:55 masak Su-Shee: agreed. let's concentrate on being unignorably awesome instead.
15:55 cbk_ just saying that I had a question
15:56 Su-Shee masak: gladly.
15:56 cbk_ perl is kinda funny that way, I know I see $_ and think it's a typeO
15:56 cbk_ sorry.
15:58 TimToady masak: -> *@x[50] could conceivably take only the next 50 arguments
15:58 TimToady though it would likely misbehave if there were less than 50
15:58 masak aye.
15:59 cbk_ So what would be the best method (way) to pass a petList to a method?
15:59 TimToady is it in variable %petList already?
15:59 masak cbk_: $obj.method(%petList)
15:59 cbk_ yes thats what I ment %petList
15:59 TimToady p6 doesn't autoflatten like p5 does
16:00 TimToady assuming the signature of .method is ready for a hash object as the first parameter
16:00 TimToady method foo (%pl) {...} would get %petList as %pl
16:01 cbk_ masak: that is what I had did: if $listObj.checkList( %.petList, $pet) { ...}
16:01 cbk_ and the method :  method checkList ( %list, $pet ) {
16:01 TimToady leave out the .
16:01 cbk_ ok
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16:04 TimToady masak: I think it's more than just fear of the unknown, but false Laziness that doesn't want to distinguish What Is from What Ought To Be, and I already learned how Perl 5 does it, which is obviously right, so Perl 6 must be wrong somehow...
16:04 masak hm.
16:05 TimToady sorry for the viewpoint shift in the middle, bad writing style...
16:05 masak I have this pattern.
16:05 masak people don't rationally derive at opinions through arguments.
16:06 masak they try to find arguments that defend their opinions.
16:06 TimToady yes, Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal  --I forget who
16:06 masak nod.
16:06 cbk_ TimToady, masak: I wouldn't worry too much about what perl6 haters say.  Not too many people welcome change(even if it is for the better)
16:07 masak cbk_: word.
16:07 cbk_ Per 6 is going to ROCK!
16:07 masak cbk_: it already does. :)
16:07 * masak doesn't need the future tense for Perl 6
16:07 cbk_ well for me, as soon as a book comes out cuz it's hard learning without one
16:08 TimToady Heinlein, it appears, at least for the 2nd half of it
16:08 masak cbk_: Perl 6 books tend to have short half-lives. :)
16:08 masak Heinlein -- doesn't surprise me.
16:08 cbk_ yah I understand
16:08 TimToady perhaps channeling Russell for the first part
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16:09 TimToady another component of it is simply that Perl 6 promises to obsolete Perl 5 eventually, and some people confuse that with immediately
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16:10 TimToady and then when it doesn't happen immediately, they assume the promise is false
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16:15 cbk_ TimToady, my second computer programming lang (that I tried to learn) was c++.  I loved the OO of it. Then I started (trying) to learn Perl. (OO in old perl was not that fun, too much work) Now comes Perl 6, it's like c++ and old perl had a babby and that babby will be that best OO programming lang to date, with all of the fun and rapid prototyping/development of Perl!
16:15 * sbp remembers seeing an inordinately rude essay recently about auto-flattening in perl5 vs. perl6 — the point apparently being that auto-flattening was only lately and grudgingly removed from perl6
16:16 sbp I don't know about that, but I did check some other things in the essay...
16:17 PerlJam cbk_: please please please don't equate perl's oop to c++
16:17 PerlJam C++ was a good first approximation of an oopy language with C-like syntax, but we've progressed a little since then.
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16:18 cbk_ yah, I know but it was my FIRST exp. in oop, thats why i said that.
16:18 * sbp considers how to do non-chaining prototypicality in perl6 OO
16:19 masak TimToady: the thing about obsoleting, and the eventually/immediately timescale, is eerily reminiscent of the myths surrounding Esperanto.
16:20 sbp hmm. I wonder if there's a design pattern for this
16:20 sbp the problem being that you have a prototype, you derive various things from it, then you modify some junk on the original prototype and then that propagates back down in ways that cause problems
16:22 sbp “Classes are open and non-final by default, but may easily be closed or finalized not by themselves but by the entire application, provided nobody issued an explicit compile-time request that the class stay open or non-final.” — S12
16:22 sbp when a class is finalised, it can still be cloned from though I presume?
16:23 sbp is there any way you can say, “nope, you can't clone from this”?
16:23 sbp I think... hmm, some language had this
16:23 sbp oh yeah, MOO
16:24 sbp ‘An alternative quasi-solution to the problem of clones interfering with the behavior of the parent is to provide a means whereby the potential parent is flagged as being clonable or not. In MOO, this is achieved with the "f" flag.’ — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming
16:24 sbp (clones interfering with the behavior of the parent? eh? shouldn't that be the other way around?)
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16:33 sbp “All classes inherit a default new constructor from Object. It expects all arguments to be named parameters initializing attributes of the same name.” — oh this is clever
16:35 sbp “Whether you write your own BUILD or not, at the end of the BUILD, any default attribute values are implicitly copied into any attributes that haven't otherwise been initialized.” — hmm. what if you don't want that?
16:36 PerlJam sbp: don't supply defaults?
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16:40 sbp PerlJam: well, you say that, but I can imagine writing some spaghetti code somewhere where you get arguments that you want to discard for some reason. "don't do that when it hurts" implies you have control over doing it... :-)
16:41 sbp but yeah, I'm not really thinking it through
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16:49 PerlJam sbp: assign Nil to the items you want to discard.
16:50 sbp oh, undef you mean? hmm
16:50 sbp yeah, thanks. hard to keep all this in mind
16:51 lisppaste3 cbk pasted "passing parameters" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83377
16:52 cbk_ this is the problem that I get now with the %petList passed as a parameter...http://paste.lisp.org/display/83377
16:54 cbk_ of course I have already done this: my $listObj = PetList.new();
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16:55 PerlJam cbk_: but it's complaining about %petlList
16:55 PerlJam er, %petList even
16:58 cbk_ well I'm trying to have one method check ether one of the 2 %hashes I have. Thats why I pass %petList as a parameter I could also have used %perReq the other %
16:59 PerlJam cbk_: but apparently you didn't declare a hash called %petList
17:00 cbk_ I have it in the class: my %petList = (dog => 1, cat => 1, fish =>1, rabbit =>1); and my %petReq; ##pet retuest list (just empty)
17:01 PerlJam cbk_: check your scoping.
17:01 PerlJam cbk_: or paste your code somewhere and let us tear it apart :)
17:02 cbk_ well ok, but be gentle, I don't write much code and I'm just starting to learn perl 6....
17:04 cbk_ here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83380
17:05 PerlJam cbk_: yes,  your %petList is scoped to the class, but you're trying to use it outside of the class in the loop
17:09 cbk_ ok... so could I just pass like a var that says 1 or 2 and have the method put in %petList if it gets a 1 or %petReq if it gets a 2?
17:10 PerlJam cbk_: or just move the declaration for %petList and %petReq to be outside of the class definition.
17:11 cbk_ There has to be more eloquent way to do that, right?
17:11 cbk_ or I could do that i guess.   I was trying to keep everything for the PetClass selfcontained inside the class only :(
17:12 PerlJam cbk_: well, if these are meant to be private data for the class, then you have it scoped correctly, and yes you should use some other mechanism for selecting the one you want to check.
17:13 PerlJam cbk_: or you could just write two methods, one to check %petList and  the other to check %petReq
17:13 cbk_ Ok I'll try it that way....  Thank you for your help. I'll probably be back in an hr or so :)
17:14 PerlJam cbk_: though, I'm curious why you would try to write an abstraction for this rather than just use perl's built-in mechanisms to do this.
17:15 PerlJam I mean, checkList() is just a wrapper around %hash.exists($key), so why not juse use %hash.exists($key)?
17:15 PerlJam (a very thin wrapper)
17:16 cbk_ Well that could only be because... I did know you could do that...
17:16 PerlJam but I guess you'd still end up with two methods to your PetList object for asking about each individual list
17:17 cbk_ Yah thats why I did it! :)
17:18 cbk_ I'll just try the two methods and/or a more complated checkList method....
17:18 cbk_ PerlJam, Thanks
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18:05 cbk_ can I do this with an "if" statement because I'm getting an: "Could not find non-existent sub if" error
18:05 cbk_ if $listObj.checkList1($pet) { ... }
18:05 cbk_ or do have to do it like this.. if ($listObj.checkList1($pet)) {...}
18:07 Tene cbk_: are you sure you have a space between 'if' and the ()s?
18:08 cbk_ Tene: i don't have the ()
18:08 cbk_ 's yet
18:08 cbk_ I'll try that.
18:08 Tene cbk_: you shouldn't be getting that error... can you post the code?
18:08 cbk_ ok
18:10 cbk_ Tene, ok it is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/83387
18:11 Tene and which line gives the error?
18:12 Su-Shee can I do use GrammarA in grammar GrammarB and extend GrammarB with GrammarA that way?
18:12 Tene Su-Shee: the standard way to do it is with inheritance: grammar GrammarA is GrammarB { ... }
18:12 cbk_ does not say.  I think it is inside the main loop on the first if that I use
18:12 Su-Shee Tene: ah, that plain and simple..
18:13 cbk_ I put in a say 'check point' before it and it didn't come up?
18:13 PerlJam cbk_: I'd guess it's your "else if{ ... }" that's really the problem.
18:14 Tene ckoh, I see it...
18:14 Tene cbk_: you have ;s after your if ()s
18:14 Tene so there's no block, so it parses as a sub instead of a control
18:14 M_o_C [17:09:57] <M_o_C> you don't have something like smolder for make spectest, do you?
18:14 Tene if (%petList...);
18:14 PerlJam Tene++ good eye
18:15 Tene cbk_: also, Perl 6 doesn't have a form like that... if you want a one-line without {}s, you have to put the if after the statement:
18:15 Tene return if %petList.exists($pet);
18:15 Tene or
18:15 Tene ir ... { return }
18:15 Tene s/ir/ior/
18:15 Tene ARGH typing fail. :(
18:15 cbk_ :)
18:15 cbk_ ok
18:15 cbk_ brb
18:16 cbk_ thanks...
18:21 cbk_ ok i got it. It now looks like this: if %petList.exists($pet){return;}
18:21 cbk_ thanks!
18:38 TimToady um, that's also wrong
18:39 TimToady std: if %petList.exists($pet){return;}
18:39 p6eval std 27501: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Missing block (apparently gobbled by undeclared routine?) at /tmp/YxGVr4XsYf line 2:␤------> [32m[31m;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ parameterized block␤      standard stopper␤ terminator␤       whitespace␤Other potential difficulties:␤  Variable $pet is
18:39 p6eval ..not predeclare…
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18:41 rindolf Hi all.
18:41 rindolf I'm going to add another Perl 6-related answer to the #perl FAq.
18:42 rindolf About whether it is worthwhile to learn Perl 5 despite the fact that Perl 6 is so different.
18:42 mofino i wouldn't even raise the issue
18:43 mofino the mere fact people think there is another version, they will ignore the current one
18:43 rindolf mofino: someone asked it on #perl today.
18:43 rindolf It was the third time already.
18:43 rindolf This needs to be answered.
18:44 mofino :/
18:45 sbp rindolf: note that I'm trying to learn perl6 with hardly any knowledge of perl5, and trying quite deliberately to maintain that. so far I'm finding it not too difficult, though there are occasional problems
18:45 sbp so from the "is it even possible?" standpoint, I'd say "yes, with a but"
18:45 sbp presumably that but will disappear as perl6 gets better documented and more developed
18:46 Su-Shee and I don't find perl 6 not being perl anymore. but I'm certainly not argueing about that.
18:46 PerlJam sbp: and as implementations mature
18:46 sbp (nothing against perl5, by the way! just don't plan to use it)
18:47 sbp so many languages to learn
18:47 PerlJam sbp: at some point it's just syntax.
18:47 mofino my mistake, i'm being silly, there are incredible reasons to use perl5 despite perl6 being present
18:47 sbp you learn Hindi, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Italian, German, and someone is still bound to ask you why you didn't learn French...
18:47 mofino maturity being a core reason
18:48 lucs Pourquoi, hein, pourquoi!?
18:48 sbp what are you even saying! :-)
18:48 PerlJam mofino: are you saying perl6 programmers are more mature  than perl5 programmers?  ;)
18:48 Su-Shee rindolf: you all don't like perl 6 anyway - so why adressing it? ;)
18:48 mofino :)
18:48 Su-Shee PerlJam: well definetely less alpha male.
18:48 rindolf Su-Shee: some of us like Perl 6.
18:49 mofino really, perl5 and 6 will coexist for a very long time will they not?
18:49 Su-Shee rindolf: the ones remaining silent or the ones drowing in the chorus of the ones not liking it? :)
18:50 mofino perl* is all that matters
18:50 mofino start with the rock that is perl5, and hop to the next rock that will be perl6 in some time
18:50 PerlJam Su-Shee: The ones not liking perl 6 are oddly cozy with Moose, Devel::Declare, perl 5.10 and other technologies that are making Perl 5 more and more like Perl 6
18:50 Su-Shee mofino: well obviously perl 6 is not perl, I learned today. :)
18:51 huf it's worse than that i think
18:51 PerlJam Su-Shee: depends on who you talk to.
18:51 mofino that just sounds wrong
18:51 mofino the spirit of perl remains
18:51 mofino syntax is just taste
18:51 sbp yeah. perl6 is certainly perl, according to the Synopses
18:51 huf i suspect that perl6 has been taken over by the "evil jews" :D
18:51 PerlJam Su-Shee: in here, "Perl" means "Perl 6"
18:51 Su-Shee PerlJam: I personally totally dig perl 5 and perl 6 and I think Perl 6 is extremely smooth to code and will be a very sexy language.
18:51 Su-Shee PerlJam: that's why I flew here.
18:52 huf mofino: arent you the unreliable traitors that abandoned perl5? :D
18:52 mofino oh god no
18:52 huf at least that's the vibe i'm getting from some people on #perl ;)
18:53 mofino most certainly not me
18:53 mofino perl5 shaped my very technical existence, maybe that'
18:53 mofino that's good or bad, heh
18:53 huf i just hope the entire perl universe doesnt fragment itself to death. i'm scared even thinking about it
18:53 Su-Shee huf: and why shouldn't they..
18:54 PerlJam huf: there will always be naysayers and doomsdayers.
18:56 rindolf http://perl.net.au/wiki/Freenode_Sharp_Perl_FAQ#When_is_Perl_6_going_to_be_ready.3F
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18:57 mofino sweet
18:57 Su-Shee biased.
18:57 mofino hehe
18:58 rindolf Su-Shee: biased?
18:58 rindolf Su-Shee: it's the #perl FAQ, BTW.
18:58 rindolf Not the #perl6 FAQ.
18:58 mofino "Furthermore, if you don't know Perl, you are probably lacking essential programming education" ..
18:58 mofino that could be a bit much
18:59 mofino from here: http://perl.net.au/wiki/Why_Learn_Perl
19:00 Su-Shee rindolf: and what are you going to do when the time comes, when people simply use Perl 6, think of it as "that's Perl" and join #perl?
19:00 mofino adapt?
19:02 PerlJam Su-Shee: it's a wiki.
19:04 Su-Shee PerlJam: If I wish a social death, I'll edit #perl's wiki in favor of Perl 6. :)
19:04 rindolf Su-Shee: when the time comes, we will update the page.
19:04 rindolf Su-Shee: but one bird in the hand is better than two in the tree.
19:05 Su-Shee rindolf: I didn't get that?
19:05 rindolf Su-Shee: we need to answer the question now.
19:06 rindolf Su-Shee: naturally, it will grow out-of-date.
19:06 meppl joined #perl6
19:06 rindolf Su-Shee: when it does, we'll update it.
19:06 Su-Shee rindolf: I have nothing against answering it.
19:08 rindolf Su-Shee: then what is your issue with it?
19:09 rindolf I now wrote this too - http://perl.net.au/wiki/Freenode_Sharp_Perl_FAQ#Perl_6_is_going_to_be_so_different_from_Perl_5._Should_I_still_learn_Perl_5.3F
19:10 sbp rindolf: I don't understand this
19:10 sbp why should one learn perl5?
19:11 sbp I've gotten by fine without it
19:11 huf because it's fucking awesome.
19:11 rindolf sbp: don't you know a different dynamic scripting language?
19:11 huf but go ahead and deprive yourself from a ton of joy
19:12 Su-Shee (and this is _exactly_ why I stopped saying anything..)
19:12 huf ... or is that "deprive of"?
19:12 sbp hmm, whether I know any other language isn't really relevant
19:12 rindolf huf: deprive of
19:13 rindolf sbp: well, people keep asking us "Perl 6 is going to be so different. Is it still worthwhile to learn Perl 5?"
19:13 sbp do they really ask that?
19:13 rindolf So I'm answering them.
19:13 rindolf sbp: yes.
19:13 rindolf On #perl
19:13 rindolf It happened at least three time.
19:13 rindolf Probably more.
19:13 huf but that's kinda like "i already know javascript. why should i care about java?"
19:13 sbp yeah, that doesn't make sense to me, as a question to ask
19:14 sbp I can imagine asking: is perl6 ready, and does it have features I might be able to use to my benefit?
19:14 sbp and I can imagine the answer might be "probably not ready enough for you, but some of these things you seek might be in its predecessor"
19:14 huf i can imagine not asking anything much because all of these are already answered in some faq or blogpost
19:14 huf and it's just a google away ;)
19:15 rindolf sbp: well, people ask this question, and I don't have a problem understanding why they do.
19:15 rindolf I think calling Perl 6 "*Perl* 6" was a mistake.
19:15 rindolf Although they probably could not have told in advance, when the Perl 6 process started.
19:16 Su-Shee rindolf: yes. I think you made this pretty clear today. ;)
19:16 rindolf Because Perl 6 is so radically different than Perl 5.
19:16 sbp I think what I'm trying to say is that there are loads of reasons why learning a language might be worthwhile: you might have to learn it for work purposes, or it might increase your hireability, or be an interesting mental exercise, or help you pull chicks
19:16 Su-Shee rindolf: it isn't. it's visibly and in the spirit still perl.
19:16 rindolf Su-Shee: Perl 6 is very different than Perl 5.
19:17 sbp so "is it worthwhile to learn perl5?" can only be answered by another question: "what are your circumstances?" — maybe it is worth it, maybe it's not. and if the context is "should I learn perl6 or perl5?", then that is something which might inform the circumstances
19:17 Su-Shee rindolf: I don't agree.
19:17 rindolf Su-Shee: almost everything is different.
19:17 rindolf You say @myarray[3] instead of $myarray[3]
19:17 rindolf And @myarray[*-1] instead of $myarray[-1]
19:17 Su-Shee rindolf: thank you, rindolf, I do write code in both Perls.
19:18 rindolf Su-Shee: yes.
19:18 rindolf <applied-quote>Perl 6 is going to be a wonderful language. Too bad it won't be Perl.</applied-quote>
19:19 rindolf And you use ~ instead of .
19:19 rindolf And . instead of ->
19:19 Su-Shee rindolf: Ah yes. I have to agree with any existing quote.
19:19 rindolf Su-Shee: it was originally said on Fortan '90.
19:19 lucs I suspect that someone who had never seen Perl 6, but knew Perl 5 and any number of other languages, would, when shown Perl 6 code, think that it looks like Perl more than like anything else.
19:19 athomason joined #perl6
19:19 rindolf "Nice language. Too bad it's not Fortran."
19:19 rindolf lucs: maybe.
19:34 tann joined #perl6
19:37 pugs_svn r27502 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #61108
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20:36 tann rakudo: #[ blah ] say "hah!"
20:36 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«Can't use embedded columns in column 1 at line 2, near "[ blah ] s"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
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21:00 [particle] s/columns/comments/ i think
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22:35 unitxt Hi, I am trying to build Rakudo but it's failing. My guess is that it has something to do with my version of gcc. Here is some of the output:  http://paste.lisp.org/display/83399
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23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | [S03] Reduce power of Pair.ACCEPTS to work only on booleans, moritz++
23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | (but we keep the pair forms for ease-of-use via switches and junctions
23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | as well as for "doesn't look like anything else" readability).
23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | Specify that numeric comparisons must use the method forms (except for == 0).
23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | Filetest methods and pair matching no longer work on Str.
23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | (They do, however work on IO, Statbuf, and will presumably work extensibly
23:12 pugs_svn r27503 | lwall++ | on any other resource handles we care to define in the future.)
23:30 mikehh__ joined #perl6
23:41 tann rakudo: my @a; say @a ?? "y" !! "n"
23:41 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«n␤»
23:42 tann rakudo: my @a; say @a ~~ []
23:42 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«1␤»
23:42 tann rakudo: my @a; say @a ~~ [] ?? 'y' !! 'n'
23:42 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«y␤»
23:43 tann rakudo: my @a; say @a ~~ [0] ?? 'y' !! 'n'
23:43 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«n␤»
23:46 tann rakudo: my @a; say @a.shape
23:46 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«Method 'shape' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Array'␤»
23:47 tann rakudo: my @; say @a.elems
23:47 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "@; say @a."␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
23:47 tann rakudo: my @a; say @a.elems;
23:47 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«0␤»
23:49 cbk_ tann, so i can say perl 6 code to p6eval and it will tell me if it is correct?
23:50 tann you prepend 'rakudo:' to the code
23:50 tann so rakudo  will run the code
23:50 literal to just do a syntax check, you can use "std: "
23:50 lambdabot literal: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:50 literal lambdabot: @messages
23:50 lambdabot azawawi said 1d 11h 44m 14s ago: any pending grok update soon?
23:50 lambdabot azawawi said 21h 5m 38s ago: I took the liberty of extending grok (at runtime) in my Padre Perl 6 plugin to support more help from Perl foundation wikis, http://padre.perlide.org/trac/changeset/
23:50 lambdabot 5994
23:50 cbk_ cool!
23:50 tann not sure if pugs works
23:50 tann pugs: say "yup"
23:50 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«yup␤»
23:51 tann oh it does
23:51 cbk_ well I'm using rakudo anyways.
23:51 tann pugs: say [*} 1..10
23:51 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "[*}"␤    expecting bare or pointy block construct, ":", identifier or operator␤    at /tmp/FuIZw8qDFu line 1, column 5␤»
23:51 tann rakudo: say [*] 1..10
23:51 p6eval rakudo 02d0ed: OUTPUT«3628800␤»
23:52 tann std: 1,1..Inf &[+]
23:52 p6eval std 27503: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
23:53 tann std: 1,1...Inf &[+]
23:53 TimToady note, that's probably parsing much differently than you think...
23:53 p6eval std 27503: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
23:53 TimToady since you've got & in infix position
23:54 TimToady so you've got Inf & [+]
23:54 TimToady which evaluates to Inf & 0, since [+] has no arguments
23:54 TimToady which autothreads the ... over Inf and 0
23:54 tann urhhh
23:55 tann trick..trick
23:55 TimToady the right side of ... never takes Inf
23:55 cbk_ p6eval and std are SO cool!  I can open a private dialog and test my code without begin embarrassed on how bad my perl knowledge is.
23:56 tann cbk_: especially, you're under timtoady's watchful eye, you're in good hands
23:56 TimToady but I'm so mean
23:57 tann all hail gandalf
23:58 cbk_ tann, never mind, p6eval just made me feel like crap anyways.
23:59 timbunce joined #perl6
23:59 tann cbk_: how so?
23:59 tann #perl6 is the land of joy

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