Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-07-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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02:43 colomon I love Perl6!
02:50 sjohnson me too
02:52 TimToady it's okay in spots
02:52 colomon Did what feels like my first real programming in it today -- modifying a Perl 5 program to be Perl 6ish.
02:52 colomon It's beautiful.
02:52 TimToady I'll settle for cute and adorable...
02:53 colomon I'm not sure cute really fits, actually.
02:53 colomon It's all elegant and such.
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02:54 azawawi hi
02:56 sjohnson some cute things about Perl
02:56 colomon Time for bed.  Just had to get that out of my system.  Thanks, all.
02:57 sjohnson $_ is cute
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03:09 pugs_svn r27588 | lwall++ | [camelia] put back TM
03:14 sjohnson ( `ー´)
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05:15 szabgab ironcamel1, why 1 ?
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05:16 szabgab can't you use the same nick on two channels with the freenode web interface ?
05:16 ironcamel1 this account is view the web client... my ironcamel account i use a client that i wrote
05:16 ironcamel1 as a plugin for vim
05:16 szabgab oh I see
05:16 ironcamel1 i keep 2 clients running for error checking/debugging etc
05:17 szabgab I have enough errors in one client :-)
05:18 ironcamel1 szabgab, one suggestion for your website is don't make users have to register to leave a comment.  just my opinion.
05:18 szabgab anyway we still have to see if the Perl 6 regexes are going to become ugly because of the extensive escaping or not
05:18 ironcamel1 well, of course they will be
05:19 ironcamel1 they will be full of backslashes everywhere
05:19 szabgab regarding the comment system, if that can be done with the disqus thhing then I can try to do that
05:19 ironcamel1 unless you can do something clever with the literal q{} strings in the regexes
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05:50 Khisanth I guess parsing html will look ugly ...
05:57 ironcamel1 yes indeed
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06:15 Khisanth well at least it matches
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06:30 Su-Shee good morning.
06:31 tann 'moring, pretty pirl
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06:53 moritz_ std: sub a { }; say a ~~ 4
06:53 p6eval std 27588: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Preceding operator expects term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/CpslxfakGq line 1:␤------> [32msub a { }; say a ~~[31m 4[0m␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
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07:07 Matt-W Morning
07:07 sjohnson hello
07:08 moritz_ oh hai
07:10 sjohnson does anyone here hate programming in Javascript, PHP, CSS, and HTML all in one?
07:10 Su-Shee sjohnson: I don't besides PHP.
07:10 moritz_ sjohnson: yes ;-)
07:11 Su-Shee actually, I really like the combi js, css and html/xul :)
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07:11 sjohnson moritz_: me too
07:11 sjohnson i think i'm gonna have to quit my job
07:11 sjohnson this is getting far too boring and painstaking
07:12 Su-Shee sjohnson: you forgot the additional window with the database/sql stuff. ;)
07:13 sjohnson yes, i did forget that :)
07:13 sjohnson i become very happy programming Perl scripts at work to do routine things
07:14 sjohnson i almost jump at the opportunity
07:14 sjohnson contrasted with the unbelievable pain of coding in PHP
07:14 sjohnson ... PHP and friends, i mean
07:14 Su-Shee sjohnson: until today I managed to avoid to get any php job but the one I've tried once and hated.
07:15 sjohnson Su-Shee: this may seem like a no brainer, but you like Perl, right?
07:15 Su-Shee sjohnson: totally.
07:16 sjohnson me too
07:17 Su-Shee sjohnson: I had a perl crisis a few years ago and let myself be seduced by python and a little ruby, but went back.
07:17 sjohnson please tell me how that went
07:17 sjohnson as i also had a crisis
07:17 sjohnson but came back once i found that Perl 6 does all that Perl 5 didn't do
07:18 jeekobu I'm in the middle of such a crisis I guess
07:18 jeekobu For my research scripts anyway.  Python has easy memoization and built-in big int support, P5 doesn't
07:18 Su-Shee well, from the outside it looked like perl wouldn't make it into more contemporary programming, so I checked other things out. then came a) perl6 and b) cool new shiny things in perl5 and I jumped back immediately.
07:19 sjohnson jeekobu: do you know if Perl 6 can handle it?
07:19 Su-Shee jeekobu: check higher order perl, there's plenty about memoization.
07:19 sjohnson Su-Shee: i checked out ruby too
07:19 sjohnson i think David Flanagan's book is confusing as hell
07:19 sjohnson obviously will get 5 stars on amazon, but an example of the worst kind of technical manual i have ever read
07:19 sjohnson the Camel book is so much nicer
07:19 sjohnson and a hell of a lot funnier to read
07:19 Su-Shee sjohnson: it's mostly that I read many amazing details about perl 5 (like HOP) which convinced me even more. I got in touch with perl's sexiness again.
07:20 Su-Shee sjohnson: and if you check out projects like moose for example - it's a-ma-zing how flexible perl is.
07:20 jeekobu sjohnson: You mean the current implementations?  I don't know
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07:20 jeekobu sjohnson: Sort of why I drifted back to checking out P6; it's been a few years
07:20 Su-Shee sjohnson: and there's nothing like CPAN.
07:21 jeekobu sjohnson: OTOH I'm vary wary of jumping on a still-rapidly-evolving platform.  That's been a huge part of Python's problem.  (And various other software platforms.)
07:22 sjohnson righto
07:22 sjohnson my biggest gripe in Perl 5 is no trim function
07:22 Su-Shee trim?
07:22 bionoid sjohnson: for real? it's like a 0,2 liner
07:23 Su-Shee *hihi* 0.2 liner :))
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07:23 sjohnson yeah, having to reinvent the wheel for the 50 perl scripts i have that use it
07:23 sjohnson gets annoying fast
07:23 Matt-W yeah that bugs me too
07:23 Matt-W It's so common it just feels like it should be a builtin
07:24 sjohnson Matt-W, i couldn't agree more
07:24 sjohnson having to refine my own trim function every single time i write a script that uses it, or install String::Strip with CPAN...
07:25 sjohnson on every system I migrate to..
07:25 moritz_ maybe you could sneak it into Scalar::Util, which is a core module?
07:25 sjohnson i would like to, but how sneaky would i have to be?
07:25 sjohnson i want to do whatever it takes to get it backported into Perl 5
07:26 sjohnson i could live with a core module
07:26 moritz_ no idea really
07:26 sjohnson until Perl 6 comes out
07:27 Su-Shee (oooh, please let me get the job where the ceo says "oh, yes, let's have an eye on perl 6, we're commited to use perl the next decade..")
07:27 sjohnson moritz_: maybe i could get in touch with the Core Module author?
07:28 sjohnson i convinced the ANSIColor author to inclide a stripColors function
07:28 sjohnson so maybe it might be all that is needed
07:28 sjohnson include*
07:28 moritz_ Su-Shee: when will that be decided?
07:28 moritz_ sjohnson: it's dual lived, so you'll find the author by a quick CPAN search
07:28 Su-Shee moritz_: they said, they'll contact me "end of the week - monday the latest.."
07:29 moritz_ Su-Shee: then I wish you the best of luck
07:29 sjohnson moritz_: i am wondering if you think it might work, not so much who the author is
07:29 sjohnson if you have faith, then i will give it my best
07:29 moritz_ sjohnson: it's worth a try.
07:29 moritz_ I've never tried to get something into a core module (except documentation), so I really can't tell
07:29 sjohnson perhaps if i make a good case for it
07:30 sjohnson about how frustarting it is getting an @INC error
07:30 sjohnson on migrating systems
07:30 sjohnson when emergencies happen
07:30 sjohnson ... based on a true story!
07:31 sjohnson perhaps matt-w might be kind enough to let me use his quote
07:31 sjohnson :3
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07:33 sjohnson *puppy dog eyes*
07:34 Su-Shee sjohnson: just find 2 good arguments why it's missing and offer the already written code.
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07:43 Matt-W My quote?
07:44 Su-Shee It's so common it just feels like it should be a builtin
07:44 Su-Shee that one.
07:47 Matt-W Oh
07:47 Matt-W yes
07:47 Matt-W sure
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09:14 szabgab calling die() now gives me a Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()
09:14 moritz_ rakudo: die('a')
09:14 p6eval rakudo 9a7a1d: OUTPUT«a␤Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Compiler;eval' pc 289208 (src/gen_actions.pir:24161) (src/gen_setting.pm:3340)␤»
09:15 moritz_ bah.
09:15 moritz_ rakudo: 1/0
09:15 p6eval rakudo 9a7a1d: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
09:15 moritz_ bah, no line number
09:23 Matt-W who broked it?
09:23 moritz_ probably the parrot folks
09:25 Matt-W entirely possible
09:25 Matt-W I do look forward to the day when it's a bit more of a stable footing
09:25 Matt-W Although I'm in no rush, because Parrot can become much more awesome before then
09:29 dalek rakudo: 3d5f23c | moritz++ | docs/architecture.svg:
09:29 dalek rakudo: [docs] shiny chart of Rakudo's architecture (svg)
09:29 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​d5f23c88d046fd6dcb6d8c8e2858a72e9765e86
09:31 Matt-W moritz_: I liked that architecture chart
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09:38 spinclad std: 2++4
09:38 p6eval std 27588: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Syntax error (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/TYzGLCkRqI line 1:␤------> [32m2++[31m4[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     POST␤   infix or meta-infix␤        infix stopper␤    postfix␤        postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤ statement
09:38 p6eval ..modifier loop␤  terminator␤     whitespac…
09:39 * spinclad (goes on backlogging)
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09:55 pugs_svn r27589 | hinrik++ | Move perlintro.pod6 to perlintro.pod
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10:06 pugs_svn r27590 | hinrik++ | [docs] Fix some formattting in perlintro.pod, replace Pugs with Rakudo
10:11 pugs_svn r27591 | hinrik++ | [docs] perlintro.pod: Use semantic Pod blocks, move Author section to the end, more reformatting
10:21 pmurias moritz_: re inclusion into Scalar::Util doesn't it contain magical functions?
10:21 moritz_ pmurias: dunno, the name doesn't imply that
10:23 pmurias i just read through the function list and most of the functions seemed deeply tied into the perl5 language/implementation
10:24 moritz_ C<Scalar::Util> contains a selection of subroutines that people have
10:24 moritz_ expressed would be nice to have in the perl core, but the usage would
10:24 moritz_ not really be high enough to warrant the use of a keyword, and the size
10:24 moritz_ so small such that being individual extensions would be wasteful.
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10:25 moritz_ seems to fit, although no black magic is required for trim()
10:25 szabgab std: 1+1
10:25 p6eval std 27591: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
10:26 literal hm, perldoc.perl.org has a new design
10:26 moritz_ wohoo
10:27 literal very neat
10:27 moritz_ imho a bit dark, but very nice
10:31 moritz_ it's a strange irony that the one perl site which a very decent layout already got a new one, while others could use it much more
10:32 literal heh, yeah
10:33 literal perlmonks and use.perl have awful designs
10:34 pugs_svn r27592 | hinrik++ | [docs] perlintro.pod: Use K<> and =input blocks instead of C<> and =code where appropriate
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10:43 pugs_svn r27593 | hinrik++ | [docs] perlintro.pod: Reformat the email L<>inks
10:44 Matt-W oh my
10:44 Matt-W that's weird
10:44 Matt-W going to take a while to get used to the new perldo
10:48 Matt-W although the search engine isn't finding me anything at all
10:48 Matt-W weird
10:49 Matt-W and some nasty scrolling redraw effects too. No, I think I preferred the old perldoc.
10:50 szabgab rakudo: 1+1
10:50 p6eval rakudo 3d5f23:  ( no output )
10:51 szabgab rakudo: 'aab' ~~ m/ a | aa /; say $/
10:51 p6eval rakudo 3d5f23: OUTPUT«a␤»
10:51 moritz_ szabgab: how stand-alone is the stand-alone Padre download? do you still need a strawberry perl installed?
10:51 szabgab shouldn't that be aa ?
10:51 moritz_ longest token matching is NYI
10:51 moritz_ pmichaud is working on it this summer
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10:52 szabgab the stand-alone includes Strawberry
10:52 moritz_ ok, thanks
10:52 szabgab actually it currently installs in c:\strawberry
10:52 moritz_ my girlfriend wants to learn perl
10:52 literal how big is the download?
10:52 moritz_ and has no internet connection, and only windows
10:52 moritz_ so I looked around what to download for her
10:53 szabgab so how are the test starting at line 55 in pugs/t/spec/S05-metasyntax/longest-alternative.t passing ?
10:56 * moritz_ takes a look
10:56 szabgab it is still a bit far from being really beginner friendly - the built in help is not that good yet
10:56 szabgab it is about 14 mb
10:56 szabgab oh I guess they are skipped in that external test skipper
10:56 szabgab not by fudge
10:56 szabgab I keep forgetting about that
10:56 moritz_ only a selection of spectests is run, yes
10:56 szabgab rakudo: 'aab' ~~ m/ a || aa /; say $/
10:57 p6eval rakudo 3d5f23: OUTPUT«a␤»
10:57 szabgab evalbot does not have a good day it seems
10:57 moritz_ she just needs an editor with syntax hilighting and a button that runs the script
10:57 moritz_ hm, why?
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10:57 szabgab oh and in the stand-alone padre there still is no icon to launch padre :-(
10:58 szabgab but I hope there will be one by the birthday
10:58 moritz_ but a simple link on the desktop will do for starting it, no?
10:58 szabgab moritz_, why what ?
10:59 moritz_ 12:57 < szabgab> evalbot does not have a good day it seems
10:59 szabgab yes it will do
11:01 szabgab earlier it seemed to be dead and now it took a long time - though eventually answered
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11:42 pmurias mildew: say "alive!?"
11:42 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«alive!?␤»
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11:45 szabgab how do you explain $/   is that a magic variable that is both a scalar and an array ?
11:45 szabgab why is the array part not called @/   ?
11:45 moritz_ it's an object.
11:46 moritz_ and @ really only implies the Positional role, % implies the Mapping role
11:46 moritz_ and $/ does both
11:47 szabgab oh so there is an @/  ?
11:47 moritz_ no
11:47 moritz_ @($/) or $/.list
11:47 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
11:47 moritz_ lambdabot: shut up
11:47 szabgab I think these roles and stuff are still way over my head
11:50 pmurias szabgab: $/ is not really magical
11:50 moritz_ for a Perl 5 programmer it is ;-)
11:50 pmurias it just gets set after you do a match
11:52 pmurias szabgab: when you keep an array in $foo "$foo = [1,2,3]" is $foo both a scalar and an array?
11:52 szabgab I think I have to go back to square one and try to understand why do we need to have arrays that have a $ as a sigil
11:53 szabgab rakudo: my $x = (1, 2, 3); say $x.WHAT; say $x[0];
11:53 p6eval rakudo 3d5f23: OUTPUT«Array()␤1␤»
11:53 moritz_ actually it should be a Capture
11:53 pmurias szabgab: they are array refs from perl5
11:53 szabgab rakudo: my $x = [1, 2, 3]; say $x.WHAT; say $x[0];
11:53 moritz_ but $x = [1, 2, 3]; would create an Array
11:53 p6eval rakudo 3d5f23: OUTPUT«Array()␤1␤»
11:54 szabgab pmurias, yes I think I understand that but why do we need them ?
11:54 pmurias we don't
11:54 szabgab I thought the whole point was automatic reference/dereference
11:55 szabgab and I was hoping to get a good explanation
11:56 szabgab or that they will be removed :-)
11:56 pmurias arrays with the @ sigil could be removed without much harm
11:57 moritz_ .oO( then we'd get PHP )
11:57 szabgab I meant to remove arrays with $
11:57 moritz_ and give up polymorphism?
11:57 szabgab I don't understand how are they consistent with the design
11:58 moritz_ I mean you couldn't create a variable that either holds a hash or an array
11:58 pmurias szabgab: Arrays are objects, you can hold objects in scalars
11:58 pmurias the meaning of a '@' is this container does the Positional role
11:59 szabgab which means ?
11:59 moritz_ that you can call .[] on it
11:59 szabgab that you can say @x[3] ?
12:00 moritz_ right
12:00 moritz_ %hash[3] will fail.
12:00 pmurias in $x = [1,2,3] $x is a Scalar which contains an Array, in @x = 1,2,3 @x is an Array
12:00 szabgab but you can do that on $x as well if it holds an array
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12:00 moritz_ right, but only then
12:00 moritz_ think of @ as an abbreviation of a type constraint
12:01 pmurias szabgab: there is a difference between holding and containing
12:01 moritz_ (at lesat for now)
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12:01 szabgab so you mean @x can hold only arrays while $x can hold both scalars, arrays and hashes
12:01 pmurias you need to use VAR($x) to get at the $x variable
12:01 pmurias $x can hold anything
12:02 szabgab ok, what about $y ?
12:02 szabgab ;-)
12:02 pmurias szabgab: do you see the difference between binding and assigment?
12:05 szabgab not really :-)
12:06 pmurias it's obvious once you try to implement binding & assignment ;)
12:07 moritz_ my ($x, $y); $x := $y; # now if you assign to $x, the value is also in $y, and vice versa
12:08 pmurias binding is like *foo = *bar; assignment is like $foo = $bar;
12:10 * Matt-W reads backlog
12:10 Matt-W Ah yes that confused me to start with
12:15 szabgab back later &
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12:43 moritz_ @seen masak
12:43 lambdabot I saw masak leaving #perl6 1d 15h 36m 44s ago, and .
12:46 * moritz_ would like to know how many people follow planetsix.perl.org
12:46 pmurias moritz_: re %hash[3] would fail, wouldn't %hash := \(...);%hash[3] work?
12:47 moritz_ pmurias: maybe
12:48 moritz_ phenny: tell szabgab I notice that all your Perl 6 examples still use parens after 'if', ie 'if ($str ~~ m/\=/) {' - is there a good reason for that? or plain old habit?
12:48 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when szabgab is around.
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12:49 takadonet morning all
12:50 Matt-W moritz_: I follow planetsix.perl.org
12:51 Matt-W takadonet: hi
12:54 moritz_ Matt-W: I guess the number is in the order of 1k or so, an IRC poll won't bring a reasonable result for that :-)
12:55 Matt-W moritz_: no probably not
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14:35 araujo morning
14:35 lambdabot araujo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:37 Matt-W afternoon
15:03 lisppaste3 Lorn pasted "recompiling re-smop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83747
15:03 Lorn pmurias: help ^^
15:03 Lorn pmurias: every 'svn up' i got a new error :P
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15:22 cj [Coke]: enough out of you!
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15:32 pugs_svn r27594 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] unbreak build
15:32 pugs_svn r27595 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] disable SMOP_PROFILE and SMOP_MOLD_DEBUG
15:32 pugs_svn r27596 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] remove debuging statements from mildew
15:33 pugs_svn r27597 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] make tools/ri support %yeast
15:33 pmurias Lorn: there's a bug at runtime which causes smop to loop infitly
15:34 * [Coke] whistles innocently at cj.
15:35 pmurias cycling&
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15:43 pmichaud Good morning, #perl6
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15:46 Lorn pmurias: Good afternoon, from Brazil
15:46 KyleHa1 constant $foo = 22; lives_ok { $foo *= 1 }, 'identity';   # pmichaud, what do you think?
15:46 Lorn pmurias: works fine now, re-smop and re-mildew
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15:49 pmichaud KyleHa1: that looks odd to me
15:49 pmichaud I'd say it's not a valid spectest
15:49 KyleHa1 Okeydoke.
15:52 pugs_svn r27598 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #64522
15:52 pugs_svn r27599 | kyle++ | [t/spec] fix the plan I forgot
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15:53 pugs_svn r27600 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Can one "modify" a constant to its original value?  I assume so here, but maybe s/lives_ok/dies_ok/g
15:53 pugs_svn r27601 | kyle++ | [t/spec] fudge constant.t for Rakudo
15:53 pugs_svn r27602 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Nope, can't assign to a constant, even if it doesn't change it.
15:54 KyleHa1 This concludes the fruits of my train ride.  Time to work...
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17:11 pmurias Lorn: re works fine, lucky you re-mildew loops here
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17:17 Lorn pmurias: no, i did not get any re-mildew loops, all tests ran ok in re-mildew
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18:28 dalek rakudo: faf91f9 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
18:28 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 415 files, 11802 passing, 2 failing
18:28 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
18:28 dalek rakudo:     S12-attributes/instance.rakudo 121 - Can initialize one attribute based on another (1)
18:28 dalek rakudo:     S12-attributes/instance.rakudo 122 - Can initialize one attribute based on another (2)
18:28 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​af91f9103926661b7deb2a2e230ae1e9c4f2a10
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18:40 pmichaud TimToady:  STD.pm:4479  has           :my $sigspace    is context<rw> = $*sigspace    // 0;
18:41 pmichaud doesn't that need to be CALLER::<$*sigspace>  or something like that?
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19:04 TimToady those were probably all $+sigspace at the time, which was (at the time) defined to imply one level of caller
19:04 TimToady it currently works because of the stupid translation that gimme5 does, and the resulting support from p5 semantics
19:04 TimToady so yes, but when I fix that I'll also have to fix gimme5 :)
19:04 pmichaud in the final version, is it likely to become CALLER::<$*sigspace>, or will we have a notation that implies one level of caller?
19:05 pmichaud okay.
19:05 pmichaud I guess the notation that implies one level of caller is  CALLER::   :-)
19:05 TimToady I think it's better if it starts looking in this space
19:05 pmichaud oh, I agree
19:06 pmichaud I'm looking to start refactoring PGE to be more STD-like and ran into that.
19:06 TimToady looks like there are a number of places that are wrong that way
19:06 pmichaud yes
19:07 pmichaud it's okay if they're wrong -- perhaps we just want to XXX them for now
19:07 pmichaud I don't mind if STD.pm is wrong in places, as long as we know where they are :-)
19:08 pmichaud migrating PGE to handle some of the new semantics is going to be interesting.  I'm starting to think it's easier to start over than to migrate what I already have.
19:08 pmichaud (because then I don't have to deal with Parrot deprecation issues)
19:09 pmichaud I wonder how hard it would be to write the operator precedence parser in NQP
19:09 TimToady well, Cursor does most of the regex semantics, but not all
19:09 pmichaud right
19:09 TimToady doesn't try to do & or && yet
19:09 pmichaud that's one of the significant differences from what PGE does now
19:09 pmichaud so starting over seems easier
19:10 TimToady and it only fakes LTM with a trie
19:10 pmichaud is the faking not likely to be good enough?
19:10 TimToady oh, it's good enough, unless you mean "fast enoguh"
19:10 TimToady *enough
19:10 pmichaud got it.
19:11 pmichaud grammars are essentially subclasses of Cursor?
19:11 TimToady yes
19:12 pmichaud okay, good.
19:13 TimToady the current cursor encapsulates the current Match state as well as the current language
19:14 TimToady in theory you could freeze a cursor to have everything you need to provide the setting for an eval
19:14 pmichaud okay.  I like this design.
19:14 TimToady but currently the p5 implementation keeps a few things in localized globals just to keep things from getting too slow
19:14 pmichaud it fills in a lot of the "holes" that I've been struggling with for years.
19:15 TimToady and in theory each cursor is immutalbe, and you just continually derive new ones
19:15 TimToady but for ratchet code you can actually reuse them mostly
19:16 pmichaud I hadn't caught that aspect of it.... that's helpful to know.
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19:16 TimToady but immutable cursors plus lazy lists is a brain-dead easy way to do backtracking
19:16 TimToady the interesting thing is to see the translation that gimme5 does to STD.pm5
19:17 TimToady where it needs to do lazymap vs where it can just get away with conditionals
19:17 pmichaud PGE's model had been to compile regexes into explicit subroutines to do the matching.... is that consistent with STD/gimme5's approach?
19:17 TimToady they're always methods in STD
19:17 pmichaud where the methods are a compiled form of the regex?
19:17 TimToady always methods on the current cursor
19:18 TimToady yes
19:18 pmichaud fantastic
19:18 TimToady again, you can see how they translate to p5 semantics in STD.pm5
19:18 pmichaud for the past week or so I've been having trouble getting motivated to write Rakudo code... perhaps that's an indication I need to be doing regex stuff
19:18 TimToady and note that it's hardly using p5 regexen at all
19:19 TimToady if viv were a bit further along, we could actually emit the rakudo code from it
19:19 pmichaud every time I sit down to make a change in Rakudo, I think "yeah, but I'm going to throw it out once we start doing std-like stuff"
19:19 TimToady but I haven't quite got it to the place where it can replace gimme5
19:19 pmichaud on another topic, while you're here
19:19 pmichaud did you see the discussion yesterday regarding binding?
19:19 TimToady yes, not really sure what to think about it yet
19:20 pmichaud okay.
19:20 pmichaud I'll just re-register the notion that := having semantics similar to signature bind feels more "correct" the more I think of it.
19:20 pmichaud that's the way I'm going to head for now, at any rate :-)
19:21 pmichaud in particular, it matches more closely with the idea that      my @a := $v;   requires that $v does positional
19:21 TimToady yes, proxies enforcing the additional constraints
19:21 pmichaud correct
19:21 TimToady and for unadorned @a you presumably don't need the proxy
19:22 TimToady er
19:22 TimToady unadorned $a
19:22 TimToady since @a is adorned :)
19:22 pmichaud at any rate, that looks dead-simple to implement in rakudo, and resolves several of the binding issues I had asked about at NPW
19:22 pmichaud it also unifies our binding semantics some what, which I think will likely simplify a few other sections of code that are kinda weirdish.
19:23 TimToady so we can get pure ref aliasing still as long as you do it with 'my $a :='
19:23 pmichaud that works for me.
19:23 pmichaud anyway, we'll head that direction in Rakudo, and if things change later I don't think it'll be a killer for us.
19:24 TimToady still think we need a way of telling primitive binding to allow trailing stuff
19:24 TimToady so that for and map don't have to count args
19:24 pmichaud yes, we need that also somehow
19:24 TimToady maybe it's just an out parameter where it can put the remainder
19:25 TimToady basically an implied capture parameter at the end
19:25 TimToady (or parcel)
19:27 pmichaud okay, thanks for the quick tips -- they give me some solid directions to move in
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21:23 payload rakudo: 1.0.atan2(1.0)
21:23 p6eval rakudo faf91f:  ( no output )
21:23 payload rakudo: say atan2(1.0, 1.0)
21:23 p6eval rakudo faf91f: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub atan2␤»
21:24 payload why is atan2 only a method?
21:25 payload rakudo: say 1.atan2(1.0)
21:25 p6eval rakudo faf91f: OUTPUT«Method 'atan2' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
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23:13 TimToady n
23:13 TimToady nm
23:14 sjohnson toady!
23:14 TimToady you were supposed to say np
23:15 sjohnson np
23:26 pugs_svn r27603 | lwall++ | [S06-signature/optional.t] nullterm allowed only after final comma
23:26 pugs_svn r27603 | lwall++ |     also, eval_dies_ok would always have died anyway due to missing {...}
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23:45 tann rakudo: my $x = "\tx\t\n"; $x.trim; say "[$x]";
23:45 p6eval rakudo faf91f: OUTPUT«[  x       ␤]␤»
23:46 TimToady rakudo: my $x = "\tx\t\n"; $x.=trim; say "[$x]";
23:46 p6eval rakudo faf91f: OUTPUT«[x]␤»
23:46 TimToady rakudo: my $x = "\tx\t\n".trim; say "[$x]";
23:47 tann TimToady: will there be a left_trim/right_trim?
23:47 p6eval rakudo faf91f: OUTPUT«[x]␤»
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23:48 TimToady there is none specced currently
23:48 TimToady and the situation doesn't arise very often
23:48 tann neither is trim specced :)
23:48 TimToady and when it does s/\s+$// works
23:48 TimToady is so
23:48 TimToady S32-setting-library/Str.pod
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23:51 tann s32 .t file shows trim_start and trim_end but i guess they won't make it then
23:54 tann methinks, trim_start, trim_end are bad names as people would think the trimming starts and expect the trimming to end :)
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