Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-07-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:59 TimToady well, I finally figured out that the problem with / \# foo / is that it thinks it's an unspace; likewise for backslashed space character
00:59 TimToady not sure what to do about that...
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01:37 misssingthepoint pmichaud et al: ->> http://use.perl.org/~missingthepoint/journal/39359 <<-
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02:11 TimToady misssingthepoint: have you got a pugs commit bit yet?
02:13 TimToady if not, /msg me your email and preferred svn nick, and I can send you a commit bit
02:13 TimToady then you can fiddle with anything in the pugs repo, including tests, webpages, specs, etc.
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02:29 misssingthepoint yes, i have one :)
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02:29 KyleHa mtp:  Did you read my meditation on how I got involved?
02:29 misssingthepoint no, where?
02:30 KyleHa http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=780001
02:30 KyleHa That's just how I did it, not how you have to do it.  8-)
02:34 misssingthepoint KyleHa: that's very helpful.
02:34 KyleHa I'm glad you found it so.
02:37 TimToady one thing you can do right off the bat is monitor this channel when nobody else seems to be active, and be ready to make visitors from perl6-projects feel welcome (since that page points here)
02:38 misssingthepoint ok
02:38 TimToady have you done any webpage hacking?
02:38 misssingthepoint yeah
02:39 misssingthepoint the filtering thingy for moritz_'s irc logs (new version svn'd soon)
02:39 s1n pmichaud: i had an idea for the august dallas.p6m meeting
02:39 TimToady someone needs to make the boxes on perl6-projects behave when the window is either too narrow or too wide; don't know if that appeals
02:39 misssingthepoint actually that's been my on-and-off job for a few years
02:39 misssingthepoint TimToady: i'll do it.
02:40 TimToady cool.  not sure how much refactoring is involved with that though...
02:40 misssingthepoint TimToady: a little... maybe need JS
02:41 KyleHa std: sub foo { return 1,2 }; foo()
02:41 p6eval std 27764: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
02:41 KyleHa std: sub foo($x, $y) { return $x,$y }; foo();
02:41 p6eval std 27764: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 40m␤»
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02:45 KyleHa rakudo: sub foo { return 1,2 }; foo();
02:45 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (2) - at most 1 param expected␤in sub foo (/tmp/iL0LejZj4w:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/iL0LejZj4w:2)␤»
02:46 KyleHa That ought to work, right?
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02:47 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return 1,2 }; foo()
02:47 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (2) - at most 1 param expected␤in sub foo (/tmp/ByU2XymtDT:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/ByU2XymtDT:2)␤»
02:48 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return 1 }; foo()
02:48 p6eval rakudo ea667e:  ( no output )
02:48 KyleHa rakudo: sub foo { return (1,2) }; foo();
02:48 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return 1 }; say foo()
02:48 p6eval rakudo ea667e:  ( no output )
02:48 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«1␤»
02:48 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return 1,2 }; say foo()
02:48 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (2) - at most 1 param expected␤in sub foo (/tmp/mlxUPanqjl:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/mlxUPanqjl:2)␤»
02:48 TimToady looks pretty buggy to me
02:49 KyleHa Thanks.
02:49 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return 1,2 }; say foo().perl
02:49 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (2) - at most 1 param expected␤in sub foo (/tmp/5qYLHEjtTx:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/5qYLHEjtTx:2)␤»
02:49 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return (1,2) }; say foo().perl
02:49 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«[1, 2]␤»
02:50 TimToady rakudo: sub foo() { return(1,2) }; say foo().perl
02:50 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (2) - at most 1 param expected␤in sub foo (/tmp/Y03E4eR82n:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/Y03E4eR82n:2)␤»
02:50 TimToady looks like return wants exactly one argument
02:50 KyleHa Yes.  That's why I'm sticking the test in S06-blah blah/return.t
02:55 pugs_svn r27765 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #63912
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03:02 pugs_svn r27766 | bpetering++ | [perl6-projects.org] add a TODO list
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03:05 pugs_svn r27767 | bpetering++ | [perl6-projects.org] Add note about liberal commit bits
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03:06 KyleHa rakudo: my $c = { say $_; say @_.perl }; $c(2, 3, 4, 5)
03:06 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«2␤[3, 4, 5]␤»
03:07 KyleHa It seems a little odd that '2' would be in both $_ and @_, but that's what the ticket says.
03:08 KyleHa I guess I ought to gawk at S06.
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03:10 mtp2 rakudo: say 'hi'
03:10 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«hi␤»
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03:14 pugs_svn r27768 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #63974
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04:02 pugs_svn r27769 | bpetering++ | [perl6-projects.org] Add actual links to IRC channels for friendliness' sake
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04:26 cj TimToady: did you get my note about reading the intro to the camel book while playing in the pit for The Music Man?  You coincidentally cleared up a bit of confusion I was having there ;)
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04:31 pugs_svn r27770 | lwall++ | [STD] disallow unspace in regex
04:31 pugs_svn r27770 | lwall++ | [STD] don't backtrack out of failed rx// and such
04:31 pugs_svn r27770 | lwall++ | [STD] rename rxinfix to regex_infix
04:31 pugs_svn r27770 | lwall++ | [STD] handle ; recognition in regex more robustly
04:31 pugs_svn r27770 | lwall++ | [STD] fix up messages related to ${...}
04:35 TimToady cj: was that an IRC note?  my server blew up in the middle of the night...
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04:55 Tene rakudo: say (gather for 1..3 { take 'a',1,'b',5 }).perl
04:55 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«too many arguments passed (4) - 1 param expected␤in Main (/tmp/ihT29ca5FP:2)␤»
04:55 Tene rakudo: say (gather for 1..3 { take ('a',1,'b',5) }).perl
04:56 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«["a", 1, "b", 5, "a", 1, "b", 5, "a", 1, "b", 5]␤»
04:56 Tene Is that right?  Should it really flatten like that?
04:56 Tene That seems wrong to me.
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05:09 pugs_svn r27771 | bpetering++ | [perl6-projects.org] Update TODO - stuff fixed in following commit
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05:35 TimToady Tene: that's okay, lists flatten.  slice context will preserve structure
05:35 Tene Okay.
05:36 TimToady std: rx/ x \# y /
05:36 p6eval std 27771: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤No unspace allowed in regex (for literal please quote with single quotes) at /tmp/8MrK8FTway line 1:␤------> [32mrx/ x \[33m⏏[31m# y /[0m␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
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05:37 TimToady someone will need to fix t/spec/S05-mass/rx.t
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05:58 schwern Any November developers on?
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06:39 pugs_svn r27772 | bpetering++ | [perl6-projects.org] fix box layout + clean up HTML
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06:48 moritz_ misssingthepoint: why do you think the width shouldn't be given in units of font size?
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06:52 pugs_svn r27773 | moritz++ | [perl6-projects.org] link to the more canonical vim highlighting repo
06:54 misssingthepoint moritz_: mainly because it's cognitively dissonant.
06:54 moritz_ ok
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06:57 Su-Shee good morning. :)
06:57 misssingthepoint good morning Su-Shee, you usually show up smiling :)
06:58 Su-Shee well usally I'm in a good mood in the morning :)
06:59 Su-Shee I drink my coffee while staring outside the window and that usally leads to nice ideas. today, I though about a GtkPerl Weather Widget Set, Cairo Easy Shapes, a candy button factory based on Image Magick.. :)
07:00 misssingthepoint Su-Shee: i can so relate to that. Morning + coffee + ideas is a good combination for me too. :)
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07:01 misssingthepoint moritz_: kinda like having an iterator, but reading all its data into an array, then using it?
07:02 moritz_ that's cognitively dissonant, yes
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07:07 misssingthepoint :-(=
07:08 misssingthepoint IE exists to make life difficult for people.
07:09 moritz_ otoh in Perl 6 the arrays are lazy, so 'for $file.lines { ... }' is just fine ;-)
07:09 moritz_ indeed
07:09 moritz_ IE--
07:09 misssingthepoint rakudo: say("IE-- " xx 10)
07:09 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- IE-- ␤»
07:10 misssingthepoint moritz_: best analogy i had :)
07:10 moritz_ ;-)
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07:37 Matt-W Good morning
07:38 moritz_ oh hai
07:43 Matt-W What magic have you been up to
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07:44 moritz_ no magic;
07:45 misssingthepoint use magic;
07:45 misssingthepoint fix_everything();
07:45 misssingthepoint ;o)
07:46 misssingthepoint Matt-W: hi
07:46 Matt-W hi misssingthepoint
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07:56 cosimo szabgab: hi, i just recovered source for LWP::Simple
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08:04 moritz_ github it!
08:04 moritz_ improper use of noun where verb was expected, I know :-)
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08:04 Su-Shee well, googling was made a verb either..
08:04 Su-Shee I prefer "git it!"
08:05 cosimo any quick & dirty instructions? ...
08:06 moritz_ git init .
08:06 moritz_ git add *
08:06 moritz_ git commit -m 'initial commit'
08:06 Su-Shee cosimo: github leads you through it nicely if you click a new repository.
08:06 moritz_ then follow... what Su-Shee said :-)
08:06 Su-Shee cosimo: you'll need an ssh key.
08:07 cosimo ok, np
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08:10 cosimo it's really simple :)
08:13 Su-Shee having a blog again is nice. a rant a day keeps the doctor away. ;)
08:14 szabgab Su-Shee, in german only ?
08:14 Su-Shee szabgab: no, I switched to english entirely.
08:15 szabgab I see only this http://sushee.schreibsturm.org/
08:16 Su-Shee szabgab: and that's not a new movable type in light green with english in it?
08:16 szabgab cache
08:17 szabgab now it is in English
08:18 szabgab do you also write about Perl or coding ?
08:18 Su-Shee yes. but not exclusively.
08:18 szabgab for now I see 2 out of 2 political rants :-)
08:18 Su-Shee I also post pictures sometimes. ;)
08:18 Su-Shee szabgab: I installed MT yesterday. ;)
08:19 szabgab so that 1 post per day rate, nice
08:20 Su-Shee let's see how annoying readers get this time. blogging is nice as long as you stay under a certain radar.
08:21 Matt-W get known too much you start getting trolls
08:21 Matt-W not something I've ever had to worry about
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08:22 szabgab reddit has a few of them, you just need to find a way to ignore them
08:23 Su-Shee Matt-W: yeah. and "interesting" emails of you're female. ;)
08:23 szabgab I for example talk about them on a friendly IRC channel and usuall I get a few good words from my fellow hackers , then it is a lot easier to get over the trolls
08:24 moritz_ Su-Shee: you could publish some of the "interesting" mails and publicly ridicule them (but I don't know if that might actually encourage them...)
08:25 Su-Shee moritz_: it does usally.
08:25 Su-Shee moritz_: and you really don't want to fight publicly in a blog. ;)
08:25 szabgab Su-Shee, you should certainly talk about those on channels where you know you have friends
08:26 Matt-W Here is definitely a channel of friends
08:26 moritz_ Su-Shee: unless you're called fefe and disable comments
08:26 Su-Shee he never had any. ;)
08:27 Su-Shee well let's see. blogging good is a certain amount of work..
08:27 moritz_ yeah, but you know what I mean
08:27 szabgab this one is really a friendly channel but in case you cannot connect to freenode you can always drop by on #padre on irc.perl.org ;-)
08:28 Su-Shee moritz_: I do. ;)
08:28 Su-Shee szabgab: I'm not worried after two postings. :)
08:29 Su-Shee and urxvt manages to somehow break my font display.. :/
08:29 cosimo here it is, http://github.com/cosimo/pe​rl6-lwp-simple/tree/master
08:29 szabgab cosimo, great, let me try to add it to proto
08:31 moritz_ cosimo++
08:32 cosimo it's just a quick hack, nothing more
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08:32 cosimo my p6 skills are 0.00
08:33 szabgab added to proto project list
08:33 szabgab cosimo, do you plan to hand out commits on it or shall I fork it if I have changes ?
08:35 cosimo szabgab: of course i can hand out commits :)
08:35 cosimo do as you please
08:35 szabgab then please add szabgab on github to it
08:36 moritz_ and moritz :-)
08:36 moritz_ I don't have anything to commit yet, but it certainly looks interesting enough to change that soon
08:36 szabgab afaik it should use URI module instead of hand processing the given URL
08:37 cosimo here you go,
08:37 szabgab ty
08:38 misssingthepoint moritz_: i have something to show you
08:38 moritz_ misssingthepoint: go right ahead
08:40 szabgab misssingthepoint,  20 hours per week is plenty of time :-)
08:40 misssingthepoint szabgab: that's the idea :)
08:41 Su-Shee (now I'm blogging something perl. ;)
08:41 misssingthepoint http://fts.petering.net/irclog/irclog.html
08:41 misssingthepoint moritz_: that's what i was aiming for initially, but you've got to start somewhere :)
08:41 misssingthepoint (and 'special' is broken)
08:42 misssingthepoint (and there are rough edges, 1 bug i know about)
08:42 moritz_ misssingthepoint: that's way cool
08:43 moritz_ (I don't know if that's the bug you know, but actions have a bogus  in there)
08:43 misssingthepoint (that's just a side effect of taking a snapshot; the encoding gets borked)
08:44 misssingthepoint the bugs are: 1. special (quits/joins) NYI
08:44 misssingthepoint 2. turn filtering on, add some, turn off, see what happens :)
08:44 misssingthepoint but you get the idea :)
08:44 szabgab Su-Shee, and the next step down the road would be to get you added to http://ironman.enlightenedperl.org/
08:44 moritz_ misssingthepoint: works here
08:45 misssingthepoint oh.
08:45 misssingthepoint that's no bug... it's a feature!
08:45 dakkar misssingthepoint: the page is encoded in utf-8, but does not declare it
08:46 misssingthepoint dakkar: yep, if moritz_ approves i'll commit it and his lovely Perl will send the correct encoding for you at http://irclog.perlgeek.de
08:46 Su-Shee szabgab: I'm not blogging perl only, I'm really usally a mixed shop of everything from graphics to movies to open source and so on.
08:46 szabgab they filter on the perl keyword
08:46 misssingthepoint dakkar: (i.e. do the right-encoding-thing)
08:46 moritz_ Su-Shee: you can filter by tag or so
08:46 dakkar good!
08:50 moritz_ Su-Shee: if MT supports an rss feed by tag, just submit that to the ironman
08:51 moritz_ misssingthepoint: anyway, you have my approval to commit that, even if not perfect yet
08:52 misssingthepoint moritz_: ta
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09:17 pugs_svn r27774 | bpetering++ | [misc/irclog] Cooler nick filtering
09:19 misssingthepoint moritz_: little bit to fix, but hope you like
09:19 misssingthepoint moritz_: and thanks for the compliment before :)
09:19 misssingthepoint afk food
09:21 moritz_ misssingthepoint: I updated the page, and when I click on "Turn on filtering by nick" I get an empty list of nicks - any idea why?
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09:47 pugs_svn r27775 | kyle++ | [t/spec] fix S05-mass/rx.t in light of r27770
09:48 KyleHa Is there anyone awake who can sanity that?
09:50 sjohnson "sanity it" ?
09:50 KyleHa Check for sanity.
09:51 KyleHa A code review, one might say.
09:51 * moritz_ will take a look, perhaps after lunch
09:52 KyleHa Thanks moritz.
09:52 sjohnson oh, i see
09:52 KyleHa Now I can rest easier when I go back to bed.
09:53 moritz_ std: rx/ a \# b /
09:53 p6eval std 27774: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤No unspace allowed in regex (for literal please quote with single quotes) at /tmp/S9ux4Vshrt line 1:␤------> [32mrx/ a \[33m⏏[31m# b /[0m␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
09:55 misssingthepoint moritz_: no, gimme5
09:56 moritz_ misssingthepoint: no hurry
09:56 moritz_ KyleHa: looks good, thanks
09:57 KyleHa Thank YOU.
10:01 Su-Shee szabgab: now I blogged massive perl.
10:04 szabgab Su-Shee, I just read the first paragraph - I am a slow reader - but we certainly need you in #padre :-)
10:05 Su-Shee I haven't even got to a threaded perl yet. :)
10:06 szabgab one step at a time, we can help you with that but I think the people here would prefer if we discussed this on #padre
10:06 Su-Shee first, I need some - any - breakfast.
10:06 szabgab if you are interested I can try to help you through the installation
10:07 szabgab I already had 3
10:08 Su-Shee I would just have to build a new perl with threads, i plainly didn't build perl with threads, because "wth do I need threaded perl for?!" ;)
10:08 szabgab Su-Shee, oh and I think it is better to link to http://search.cpan.org/dist/Wx   as that link is stable
10:09 misssingthepoint moritz_: i suspect it's because i'm emptying a section of the DOM hackily
10:18 jnthn hi all
10:18 moritz_ moin jnthn
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10:20 masak greetings, futurologists!
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10:24 masak I have found a glaring bug in Rakudo that I should have found months ago.
10:25 masak I'm a bit surprised no-onw has caught it in the meantime.
10:25 misssingthepoint do tell.
10:25 masak yep -- gist coming up.
10:27 masak http://gist.github.com/157074
10:27 masak it's affecting Druid since June 8, and I haven't picked up on it since now. :/
10:27 masak s:2nd/since/until/
10:29 masak an interesting question is whether it affects STD.pm too, since I know Rakudo's mechanism for allowing statement-form declarations was copied more or less verbatim from STD.pm.
10:29 * masak tests locally
10:30 |Jedai| joined #perl6
10:34 masak STD.pm seemingly doesn't have the same problem.
10:34 * masak reports rakudobug
10:41 wayland76 joined #perl6
10:43 masak seems you had fun last night. I'll need to backlog. :)
10:44 wayland76 ping bots
10:44 * masak is a bot
10:48 araujo lwiz,org
10:48 araujo lwiz.org
10:48 araujo :D
10:48 * araujo just got it up
10:49 araujo morning all
10:49 masak y0
10:50 masak araujo: one can tell from your blog content that you're one of the old lambdacamel crew. :)
10:50 araujo masak, :)
10:53 wayland76 Lets see if masakbot has a pester command.. :)
10:53 wayland76 masak: pester pmichaud about wayland76's patches to ins2 branch
10:53 wayland76 :)
10:53 wayland76 Hmm, no response.  I guess not :)
10:54 masak wayland76: you can pester pmichaud yourself!
10:54 masak ;)
10:54 wayland76 Yeah, I will, if I'm ever on at the same time
10:54 masak you just need to rise early enough.
10:54 wayland76 it's only 9pm here, but I think I'd like to do some reading before I go to bed
10:54 wayland76 Well, the problem is, my computer crashes when it gets cold....
10:55 * masak failed utterly at going to sleep last night
10:55 wayland76 ...and the earlier I get up, the longer I have to sit around waiting for the room to warm up before my computer will boot
10:55 wayland76 masak: Are you a student or something? :)
10:55 wayland76 Oh, wait, sleep, or failed to go to bed?
10:56 masak wayland76: sleep.
10:56 masak wayland76: and yes, I am a student.
10:56 * jnthn hates failsleep
10:57 wayland76 I found one thing that helps failsleep
10:57 masak failsleep leads to failwake. failwake leads to general unhappiness.
10:57 wayland76 Go for a walk during the day
10:57 jnthn Me too, but it gives me a hangover the next day.
10:57 jnthn ;-)
10:57 wayland76 Oh, mine helps me get up early the next day :)
10:57 wayland76 Only problem is, you usually have to go for a walk a while before you go to bed
10:58 masak wayland76: I'll try that. yesterday I swam 2.5 km, so it wasn't that I hadn't got enough physical exercise...
10:58 wayland76 I sometimes to 8pm, and occasionally first thing in the morning
10:58 wayland76 masak: I should think not.  It has to be cardio, but swimming is that
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10:59 wayland76 I know quite a bit about sleep, but I'm not very good at it :)
10:59 wayland76 "Did you sleep well?"  ... "No, I made a few mistakes"  -- Steve Wright :)
10:59 masak jnthn: for the first time in a while, I have a blocker bug. http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=67976
10:59 masak wayland76: I _so_ know the feeling.
11:15 masak szabgab: ping.
11:16 szabgab masak, pong
11:16 szabgab did I break proto ?
11:16 masak szabgab: reviewing your 'proto help' patch. :) no, I don't think you broke it.
11:16 masak testing it now.
11:17 szabgab WORKSFORME :-)
11:17 masak I had a comment or two about the code, that's all.
11:17 szabgab wow, 1-2 comments for my 3 lines of code :-)
11:17 szabgab listening
11:17 masak yes, I have exacting standards. :)
11:17 masak but I try to do it as constructive criticism...
11:18 masak ok, first: the `when 'help' { self.help() }` block is redundant.
11:18 masak you'll note that the method itself is a dispatcher. its purpose is to dispatch to the right method.
11:19 masak none of the other methods are explicitly mentioned, so neither should 'help'.
11:19 wayland76 Construction criticism: You did a bad job of CEMENTing your code together.  Were you PLASTERed when you wrote it?  You WOOD do better if you tried to NAIL one problem at a time! :)
11:19 wayland76 (excuse the joke :) )
11:19 masak wayland76: :P
11:20 masak szabgab: the second tiny comment is about whitespace. try to avoid \s at the end of lines.
11:20 masak making a commit to fix both those issues now. on balance, though, thanks for the patch; it clearly made proto better.
11:21 wayland76 'night all :)
11:21 masak wayland76: 'night
11:21 szabgab masak, I wonder if the firts comment really works well
11:21 szabgab what if the user types ./proto help me
11:21 szabgab she will get a message
11:21 szabgab me
11:22 * masak tries
11:22 szabgab and if the users types ./proto help install   it will blow up
11:22 masak hm, you're right.
11:22 donaldh joined #perl6
11:23 szabgab at least the way I wrote help with a single ($msg) argument
11:23 masak 'help' really is a new kind of subcommand.
11:23 masak I'll have to think a bit more about this, it seems.
11:23 szabgab and regarding the trailing whitespaces, well I think i have to teach my editor to strip them :-)
11:23 masak aye.
11:24 masak they are easy to spot in 'git diff', where they show up as big red blotches.
11:24 masak rakudo: 0 but True
11:24 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«The but operator can only be used with a role or enum value on the right hand side␤in Main (/tmp/1yCN0sNUvg:2)␤»
11:24 masak o_O
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11:26 masak szabgab: right now, I'm leaning towards removing the $msg parameter, and having the 'help' method simply take a slurpy array and ignore it.
11:26 masak I think I prefer all subcommands to use the same calling style.
11:26 szabgab if I wan to catch any character except closing square bracket, is this the nicest way ?    <-[\]]>  ?
11:27 szabgab masak, you are the boss :-)
11:27 masak gotta go offline for lunch now.
11:27 masak see y'all later.
11:45 pugs_svn r27776 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] change {...}.() to {...}
11:54 ruoso joined #perl6
11:55 ruoso Hello!
11:58 pmurias ruoso: hi
11:58 ruoso pmurias, hi
12:00 pmurias ruoso: i'm trying to remove all the deviations from perl6 like using {...}.()
12:01 pugs_svn r27777 | bpetering++ | [misc/irclog] Bugfixes in nickfilter.js + 'spoken to' feature
12:03 pmurias ruoso: if i want to experiment with a tracing gc branch how should i check it in?
12:04 moritz_ phenny: tell masak a blocker? in the auld days you have just worked around it :-)
12:04 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
12:06 jnthn Indeed. Glancing at it, looks like using the block form of classes would work around it...
12:06 pugs_svn r27778 | moritz++ | [irclog] remove left-over debugging alert()
12:07 ruoso pmurias, hmm... maybe it would be a good idea to merge re-smop and re-mildew back to smop and mildew before starting other branch
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12:13 ruoso pmurias, and probably re-sync with current STD
12:19 pmurias merging with re-smop and re-mildew is likely a good idea
12:21 pugs_svn r27779 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] change $code.(...) to $code(...)
12:24 pmurias ruoso: re-syncing with STD, that depends if the current STD emits AST with full info
12:25 pmurias ruoso: what would be a intresting thing to try out would be to use viv as our rule engine
12:42 ruoso pmurias, aren't we using it already?
12:48 abra joined #perl6
12:50 pmurias ruoso: what i mean using it for rules in the user supplied programs
12:53 pugs_svn r27780 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] change $array.[...] $array[...]
12:59 pmurias ruoso: that is compiling rules to perl 5 using viv and then using perl5 interop to call them from perl6
13:00 moritz_ mildew: say 'a' ~~ /a/
13:00 p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Could not find variable &infix:~~ in the lexical scope.␤»
13:02 pmurias moritz_: mildew doesn't have rules yet
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13:14 pmurias ruoso: what other work arounds do we use? (fixing $hash.{...} atm)
13:15 hoelzro joined #perl6
13:17 pugs_svn r27781 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] change $hash.{...} to $hash{...}
13:17 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
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13:45 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
13:46 masak oh hai pmichaud
13:46 phenny masak: 12:04Z <moritz_> tell masak a blocker? in the auld days you have just worked around it :-)
13:46 masak moritz_: oh, hush. :P
13:47 masak pmichaud: yes, a blocker.
13:47 hoelzro_ joined #perl6
13:47 masak pmichaud: one due to things that you patched two months ago. I'm amazed that no-one else has picked up on this in the meantime.
13:48 pmichaud details?
13:48 masak http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=67976
13:48 jnthn masak: The workaround is to use the block form, no? :-P
13:48 masak jnthn: yes, I guess it is.
13:48 huf_ joined #perl6
13:48 masak now, if the fix is complicated, I'll do just that.
13:49 * jnthn has no idea
13:49 masak and I'll rescue my Pod comments to the end of their respective files.
13:49 pmichaud that doesn't seem too hard to fix.
13:49 masak \o/
13:50 ruoso pmurias, hmm... maybe that will be better at the moment we have proper implementation of the interopr
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14:16 misssingthepoint here's a quickie: how would i go about generating graphs of all sort using Perl 6, today?
14:16 misssingthepoint I can think of a few things:
14:16 misssingthepoint 1. generate GraphViz DOT manually
14:17 masak another question similar to 'what would need to be present in a 1.0-like release?' is 'what would it take for Perl 6 to make the Slashdot frontpage?'
14:17 misssingthepoint 2. generate SVG a la masak++ thingo on use.perl
14:17 misssingthepoint 3. interface to something in Parrot that can do it?
14:17 masak misssingthepoint: I've been thinking of creating some sort of graph module on top of SVG. maybe one could use existing cool modules out there as inspiration.
14:17 masak I think I bookmarked one a while ago, let me have a look.
14:18 masak yep, http://scruffy.rubyforge.org/
14:18 masak misssingthepoint: if you'd like to get started porting that, I'm willing to give you a helping hand.
14:19 misssingthepoint masak: sure :)
14:19 masak misssingthepoint: in fact, I might have an incentive to get parts of it done in one week, so that I can use it in my YAPC::EU presentation :P
14:20 masak misssingthepoint: excellent. let me know where I can send patches.
14:20 jnthn YAPC::EU presentation? What's that? ;-)
14:20 masak jnthn: I have no idea. :)
14:20 jnthn Meh. I'll worry about it next week then.
14:20 jnthn ;-)
14:20 masak it's somerhing that's been in the back of my mind in the last few days, that's all.
14:20 masak probably nothing to worry about.
14:22 misssingthepoint masak: thanks ;)
14:22 * jnthn breathes easily
14:23 masak misssingthepoint: thank _you_ for letting me delegate tuit sinks. :P
14:23 masak I'll be following the work on that port with true interest.
14:25 szabgab ppl, how can I debug a grammar ?
14:26 szabgab it does not match something that I thought it should, how can I find out why ?
14:26 masak szabgab: Match.perl is a life-saver.
14:26 masak szabgab: other than that, the trick is to not write the whole grammar at once.
14:26 szabgab what do you mean by Match.perl ?
14:26 masak there's not good introspection tool for "now how come grammar G doesn't match string S?" situations.
14:26 szabgab I don't have a match
14:26 szabgab $/ is empty
14:27 masak szabgab: yes, I realize that. so it doesn't help in the exact situation you're in.
14:27 PerlJam szabgab: you could post the input and the grammar and let #perl6 take a look at it. :)
14:27 masak but genreally, it's really useful.
14:27 szabgab that's nice but I cannot teach that in a class :-)
14:27 szabgab or I can but, well, you know
14:27 jnthn ;-)
14:28 jnthn szabgab: If it's a grammar made up of various rules, testing the various rules in a bottom-up kinda way can help.
14:28 pmichaud misssingthepoint: I'm also interested in having a CSV parser, if you're looking for things to do :-)
14:28 masak szabgab: fwiw, I want to build an Ajax-based tool with two textareas, one for the grammar and one for the string, showing exactly how far things match.
14:28 masak szabgab: mberends++ and I talked about it once.
14:28 jnthn Loading the grammar module in at the REPL (use MyGrammar;) and then playing from there could be a quick-ish way to do that.
14:29 misssingthepoint pmichaud: sure :)
14:29 masak szabgab: write tests for the grammar, using jnthn's tip.
14:29 masak szabgab: you do have tests, right? :)
14:29 szabgab yes yes
14:29 pmichaud misssingthepoint: in my "Hacking Rakudo Perl" talk (where I tell people how they can help develop Rakudo Perl), suggestion #1 is to write applications and modules in Perl 6 :-)
14:29 jnthn There is that. Tests for a grammar probably would check the various rules.
14:29 szabgab and I have my own repl
14:29 szabgab sort of
14:29 masak szabgab: nice! is it better than the Rakudo REPL? :)
14:29 misssingthepoint pmichaud: i was just going through that before. it's good :)
14:30 szabgab masak, it is is a full IDE :-)
14:30 masak misssingthepoint: so, do you have a repo yet?
14:30 * jnthn should also get on to writing Grammar::Generative, which would maybe help in terms of letting you see what a grammar could match...
14:30 masak szabgab: amazing!
14:30 jnthn Or producing examples thereof.
14:31 misssingthepoint masak: no, i'm in the class of developers who don't know version control... guess i have to git learning.
14:31 PerlJam having something like YAPE::Regex::Explain for grammars would be nice.
14:31 masak jnthn: sounds a bit like that Haskell test module, whatchamagoogle.
14:31 KyleHa joined #perl6
14:32 masak QuickCheck!
14:33 masak http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~rjmh/QuickCheck/
14:33 hoelzro masak++ for QuickCheck reference =)
14:33 misssingthepoint masak: http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​007/10/a-graphical-tra.html might be interesting :)
14:34 szabgab can I embed print statements in the grammar to see what does it do ?
14:34 masak misssingthepoint: yes, that's a good part of the way to what I want.
14:34 masak szabgab: maybe you should check misssingthepoint's link out too.
14:34 masak szabgab: yes, but they have to be PIR for the time being.
14:35 masak szabgab: but it's definitely doable.
14:35 szabgab can you give an example ?
14:35 misssingthepoint jnthn: i'd love something like Grammar::Generative. :)
14:35 jnthn misssingthepoint: I keep planning to write it.
14:36 jnthn misssingthepoint: But keep getting distracted working on Rakudo. ;-)
14:36 misssingthepoint jnthn: feel free to indulge in that distraction :)
14:37 misssingthepoint jnthn: is there any way i could help something like G::G happen?
14:38 abra joined #perl6
14:38 jnthn misssingthepoint: Well, actually, pmichaud++ is about to work on PGE refactors shortly...
14:39 jnthn misssingthepoint: So I was pondering holding off until then.
14:39 jnthn misssingthepoint: But really it's not *so* hard to write.
14:39 jnthn Just multi-dispatching over the PGE AST nodes.
14:39 masak szabgab: http://gist.github.com/157392
14:39 jnthn Recursively.
14:39 jnthn And building up output.
14:40 misssingthepoint jnthn: *winces* think a newbie could do it, given some pointers, and help from #perl6?
14:40 jnthn I was figuring the process could be given some "direction" as desribed by supplying a tree of nested captures.
14:40 szabgab masak, ty
14:41 masak szabgab: code immediately becomes Parrot-specific (and probably self-deprecating), of course.
14:41 pmichaud I've been thinking about adding a trace mode to PGE
14:41 jnthn misssingthepoint: Oh, another blocker...Regex.perl needs to work also.
14:41 pmichaud (based on seeing Damian's debugging output from Parse::Grammar)
14:42 jnthn http://gist.github.com/157394 # this is the tiny bit of code I'd scribbled so far...but more playing than anything serious.
14:42 PerlJam masak: parrot has say these days BTW
14:42 masak pmichaud: that would be nice, I think.
14:42 masak PerlJam: thanks for the tip.
14:42 masak and Parrot++
14:42 szabgab masak, any help is a good help
14:43 moritz_ rakudo: Q:PIR{ say "foo" }
14:43 szabgab you'll see this trick display :-)
14:43 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«foo␤»
14:43 rfordinal joined #perl6
14:46 moritz_ bah, regexes don't seem to set their outer scope properly
14:46 moritz_ ie a find_lex embedded in a regex will never succeed in finding Perl 6 variables
14:47 jnthn moritz_: Think that's known issue.
14:47 jnthn moritz_: PGE pre-dates lexicals refactor in Parrot...
14:47 jnthn :-(
14:49 misssingthepoint RFC: Parsing CSV is a (completely?) solved problem. Port Text::CSV?
14:50 masak sounds like a good idea.
14:50 moritz_ sure, why not?
14:50 misssingthepoint ok.
14:52 pmichaud (regexes don't see lexicals)    This is the primary reason that     regex { $a }    doesn't work
14:53 moritz_ and let me guess, parrot doesn't easily allow something along the lines of $outer_lexpad = $caller.lexpad?
14:54 jnthn Heh, actually you can do a set_outer now
14:54 jnthn But it's not really the ideal fix I guess.
14:54 pmichaud setting the caller as the outer lexical is actually wrong
14:54 pmichaud (in many cases)
14:54 jnthn Aye. Thus not ideal. :-)
14:54 moritz_ erm, yes
14:54 jnthn pmichaud: This may get fixed in upcoming PGE refactors?
14:55 pmichaud on the plus side, I'm working on PGE this week, and making it lexically aware is high on the list
14:55 moritz_ the outer pad where it was compiled, actually
14:55 moritz_ pmichaud++
14:55 pmichaud jnthn: sure, it has to be fixed in order for us to get contextuals
14:56 jnthn Ah, yes.
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15:07 jimmy_ what is »ö« ?
15:07 jimmy_ it's in the topic.
15:08 masak jimmy_: it's a character version of a butterfly.
15:08 pmichaud that's the ASCII representation for Camelia
15:08 pmichaud (except it's not ASCII :-)
15:09 jimmy_ I thought it was Unrecognizable Code :(
15:09 masak er, a 蝴蝶. :)
15:09 jimmy_ masak++, for improving chinese.
15:09 masak Wikipedia++
15:10 jimmy_ masak: where is the rakudo logo from?
15:11 TimToady in japanese usually just 蝶蝶, which might be fossilized babytalk
15:11 masak jimmy_: I'm not sure who made the Rakudo logo, actually. TimToady++ made the Camelia Perl 6 logo.
15:12 pmichaud I had a friend of mine who studies Japanese calligraphy make the logo
15:12 justatheory joined #perl6
15:12 jimmy_ It likes chinese character
15:13 jimmy_ pmichaud++
15:13 masak jimmy_: japanese kanji tend to look like hanzi. :)
15:14 TimToady though the tendency is toward traditional over simplified
15:14 jimmy_ masak: yes, that was why i am curious
15:14 hoelzro that's because simplified is horrible =P
15:14 masak hoelzro: I wish it were that simple.
15:15 hoelzro I know that simplified increases literacy, but to me, it's so ugly compared to traditional
15:15 jimmy_ It is traditional Chinese
15:15 jimmy_ Simplified it is 乐土
15:16 TimToady yes, I was just about to type that :)
15:16 jimmy_ the tone sounds rakudo
15:17 masak hoelzro: we all have our own tastes, of course. I also feel some simplified characters are strange choices or ugly simplifications, but mostly I think they did a decent job. I'm definitely impressed that the whole project of simplifying worked as well as it did.
15:17 jimmy_ I think it is transliteration。
15:17 TimToady le4 tu3 by my dictionary
15:18 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/157434    <-- masak
15:18 jimmy_ hoelzro: yes, you're right.
15:18 masak 'happy soil'?
15:18 masak pmichaud++
15:18 pmichaud just need to run a spectest
15:18 jimmy_ masak: no, it is transliteration.
15:18 pmichaud that took far longer than it should have.
15:18 TimToady masak: "paradise"
15:18 hoelzro masak: I agree with the "working as well as it did" part =P
15:18 masak TimToady: ah, of course!
15:19 masak TimToady: I've heard it before, but doing the understanding with my own brain was much nicer. :)
15:19 jimmy_ reading 乐土, it sounds like rakudo
15:20 TimToady they're historically related
15:20 TimToady but chinese and japanese have diverged since the borrowings
15:21 donaldh joined #perl6
15:21 masak divergence happens.
15:22 TimToady trouble is that nobody bothers to declare it in natural languages :)
15:22 masak here in Europe, we have both that, and simultaneously heave inter-lingual borrowing.
15:22 masak s/heave/heavy/
15:22 jimmy_ anyway, good logo, i love it.
15:22 TimToady Camelia is intended to brainwash all the little children into loving Perl
15:23 pmurias ruoso: what do you mean by "a proper implementation"
15:23 pmurias ?
15:25 pmurias masak: re slashdot front page, if 1.0 was really bad is propable it would make it to the slashdot frontpage
15:26 masak pmurias: I think a 1.0 release would make the frontpage regardless, actually.
15:26 masak just by virtue of its version number.
15:26 jimmy_ masak: does Camelia mean 蝴蝶,I can't find it in my dictionary
15:27 masak jimmy_: no 'butteryfly' means 蝴蝶.
15:27 pmichaud jimmy_: Camelia is the Perl 6 logo.  See the upper-right of perl6-projects.org for a picture
15:27 masak ugh, 'butterfly'.
15:27 jimmy_ but what does Camelia mean? Camellia?
15:28 Su-Shee camellia is the tea plant.
15:28 moritz_ jimmy_: I think it's a name.
15:28 masak jimmy_: 'Camelia' sounds like a girl's name.
15:28 PerlJam Why are butterflies so called?
15:28 masak jimmy_: it's a word play on 'camel'.
15:28 moritz_ and names don't have to have meanings :-)
15:28 PerlJam flying butter doesn't sound descriptive
15:29 jimmy_ masak: Wikipedia++ again.
15:29 Su-Shee PerlJam: I've got a visual though :)
15:29 nihiliad joined #perl6
15:29 Su-Shee well actually "camelia" is a world famous sanitary pad brand. ;)
15:30 mberends Re: "Rakudo 1.0" release name, how about "Preview.0", "Preview.1" etc?
15:30 PerlJam Su-Shee: never heard of it.
15:30 masak mberends: gut reaction: I like.
15:31 jimmy_ Camelia (born June 20, 1974 as Dayang Noor Camelia Abang Khalid) is a Malaysian singer and model. She was the first Malaysian to be signed to Universal Music :)
15:33 PerlJam masak: tell me how you like it when we're at Preview.157   :)
15:34 jnthn Preview might be a name that puts people of playing with it who wouldn't have done so already.
15:34 masak PerlJam: yes, that's an argument for postponing any 'special' release indefinitely.
15:34 jnthn "It's not ready yet. Just a preview. Only for the really interested."
15:34 jnthn That's not really the goal, as I understand it.
15:35 masak so, we're looking for something more positive.
15:35 masak AlmostDone.0
15:35 masak Interesting.0
15:35 PerlJam something that doesn't only pique the interest of early adopters.
15:35 masak README.0
15:36 moritz_ perl-5.12
15:36 * moritz_ ducks
15:36 PerlJam moritz++
15:36 masak :D
15:36 pmichaud I'm looking for a term that means "you can really use this for real stuff" while also indicating "it's not everything in Perl 6 yet"
15:36 Su-Shee rakudo beta.
15:36 moritz_ prakudo, where 'p' stands for 'partial'
15:36 PerlJam pmichaud: perl 5i   (already been done though :)
15:36 Su-Shee moritz_: pre-kudo?
15:37 mberends PartridgeInAPearTree.1 # 12 step scale
15:37 masak fracudo, f for 'fractures easily'
15:37 moritz_ Su-Shee: "beta" suggests near feture completenes
15:37 moritz_ Su-Shee: I like pre-kudo :-)
15:37 masak mberends: :)
15:37 pmichaud hopefully by the time of the release we're not fracturing as much
15:37 jnthn Perl6-- ;-)
15:37 Su-Shee moritz_: won't it be "near feature complete"?
15:37 masak jnthn: do you realize what that would do for the karma of Perl6 on this channel? :O
15:38 pmichaud Su-Shee: given that the Perl 6 spec would likely not be complete by the time of the release, it's hard to imagine that the implementation would be :-)
15:38 jnthn OMFG I RETRACT MY SUGGESTION!
15:38 jnthn ;-)
15:38 moritz_ Su-Shee: depends on what "near" is for you
15:38 PerlJam Isn't the name more about branding than advertising?  Pick a brand (name) and advertise it well and it doesn't matter so much what the name is (as long as it isn't unfortunate)
15:38 pmichaud PerlJam: names matter
15:39 TimToady well, the Perl 5 spec isn't complete yet either
15:39 moritz_ I suspect it won't have substantial concurrency, macros, speed and other stuff that we don't have yet (although I'd love to be proven wrong)
15:39 pmichaud PerlJam: calling it "Perl 6.0.0" would undoubtedly be a mistake :-)
15:39 PerlJam pmichaud: sure they matter, but they don't have to bring any kind of message along with them.  They just have to be "nice"
15:39 Su-Shee how about one of those cute naming schemas like rakudo riveting ranger? ;)
15:39 jimmy_ perl 5++?
15:39 TimToady Perl 6.-1.0
15:39 moritz_ oh noez
15:40 pmichaud PerlJam: the point is that some names bring a message along with them, whether we like it or not
15:40 jnthn It'd probably be good if the name actually included "Rakudo".
15:40 Su-Shee well if it is something which one can actually use, I really would call it plainly rakudo beta.
15:40 PerlJam what message does "rakduo 1.0" bring?
15:40 PerlJam er, spelt correctly
15:40 TimToady rakudo 1.-1.0
15:40 jnthn "use me"
15:40 pmichaud PerlJam: for some people, it would bring the message "Perl 6 is finished"
15:41 masak PerlJam: 'sharp release'
15:41 jimmy_ rakudo 1.0 preview
15:41 pmurias if the current release of rakudo is 19 wouln't 1.0 be a very old one?
15:41 lumi_ joined #perl6
15:41 masak Rakudo 35.0
15:41 moritz_ pmurias: Num !~~ Int
15:41 TimToady make it a website and you can keep it beta for five years
15:41 jimmy_ rakudo 1.0 alpha1 ?
15:41 Su-Shee rakudo "early adopter" ;)
15:41 PerlJam pmichaud: how many are "those people"?
15:41 pmichaud PerlJam: I suspect a great many (more)
15:41 Su-Shee TimToady: exactly my thinking. ;) it works for google. ;)
15:42 jimmy_ perl6 preview
15:42 pmichaud PerlJam: in some sense, I don't want to provide too much ammunition for the crowd that wants to say "see, you've been working on Perl 6 for ten years and all you're able to produce is a very incomplete implementation"
15:42 jnthn masak: Well in that case, clearly Rakudo 42 is the answer. ;-)
15:42 masak jnthn: that does have some appeal.
15:42 pmichaud I recognize we can't silence that crowd entirely
15:42 jimmy_ Perl 6 preview
15:42 moritz_ that'll be in 5 months...
15:42 moritz_ around .... *drummrolls*.... christmas!
15:42 PerlJam "preview" doesn't say "use me" at all.
15:43 molaf joined #perl6
15:43 masak right, 'Preview' says 'wait a while'.
15:43 pmichaud but at the same time, we don't want people thinking "Perl 6 is done!" and being disappointed by the un-done parts
15:43 masak "we'll be stable soon"
15:43 jimmy_ Perl 6 please use me
15:43 PerlJam "rakudo 1.0" says "use me"  Whether that's a complete perl 6 or not it doesn't say (IMHO)
15:43 pmichaud PerlJam: I agree -- I'm not totally against "Rakudo 1.0" as a name, as long as we can come up with a good way to say what it is/isn't
15:44 Su-Shee how about rakudo advent :) that's really, really short before christmas and leads directly to it. :)
15:44 PerlJam Su-Shee++  :)
15:44 hoelzro Rakudo 0.99(repeating) titled "Christmas is Here"
15:44 hoelzro Su-Shee: damn, that's even better
15:45 PerlJam Su-Shee: and advent is much better than "Rakudo 1.0 - Christmas Eve" too  :)
15:45 jimmy_ Rakudo 1.0 the Christms Gift
15:45 jnthn It does have the benefit that releases don't get caleld "Advent" normally so people will have to read what it means rather than make assumptions like they might on seeing 1.0 or preview.
15:45 jimmy_ s/Christms/Christmas/
15:45 Su-Shee well it's a little off if rakudo is actually released around easter the first time. ;)
15:45 PerlJam pmichaud: what do you expect to be unimplemented (or mostly so) in Rakudo 1.0 ?
15:46 pmichaud PerlJam: well, that's also what needs to be decided.  But I'd be doubtful of concurrency features
15:46 pmichaud I also don't know how much of S09 would be present
15:46 kst joined #perl6
15:46 Su-Shee pmichaud: well there has to be some room for future releases and completing features. look what other programming languages release as their version 1.0
15:47 PerlJam Su-Shee: ruby 1.0 was crap, only no one knew hardly anything about ruby at the time so it didn't matter so much.
15:48 PerlJam Everybody knows about Perl though
15:48 TimToady heh, "ADVENT" was what you typed on a PDP-11 running RSTS to run adventure, since filenames were limited to 6 letters
15:48 masak yes, the problem is the high expectations.
15:48 [particle]1 pmichaud: is there a nazareth.pm group?
15:48 Su-Shee ah. and all advents have names, btw. so there could be a rakudo gaudete and a rakudo at te levavi and so on :))
15:48 pmichaud There is a part of me that says for us to do what's natural for us and not worry too much about expectations.
15:48 PerlJam Then maybe it's time for a rebranding  (as much as I hate to say it, stop calling the language "perl")
15:49 pmichaud PerlJam: "Rakudo" is a useful rebranding for this purpose, I think.
15:49 masak PerlJam: but it is Perl.
15:49 PerlJam masak: that's beside the point :)
15:49 TimToady we're not going to waste a perfectly good four-letter word
15:49 KyleHa You could say it's Rakudo 1.0 without saying it's "Perl 6" 1.0
15:49 masak PerlJam: that's an interesting opinion. :)
15:49 pmichaud I like the "adventure" side of "advent".  I'd be a little concerned that calling it "Advent" (with the biblical connotations) might offend non-christians.
15:50 masak Rakudo-1.0-but-not-Perl-6.0
15:50 Su-Shee I've always thought of it as a "rakudo perl implementation"
15:50 dakkar «Rakudo Advent — it's Perl 6-ε»
15:50 PerlJam masak: read something about how GTE figured it would  take over 25 years of perfect customer service and marketing for them to overcome the negative impressions that  their current customer base had.  So what did they do?  The changed names.
15:50 moritz_ KyleHa: people already confuse Perl 6 and Parrot. I don't think we should give them more room for confusion
15:50 Su-Shee pmichaud: well the "before christmas" pun already was christian anyway.
15:50 masak pmichaud: why would 'Advent' offent non-Christians?
15:50 PerlJam masak: in some sense Perl has a boat load of negative press to voercome
15:50 PerlJam er, overcome
15:50 mberends while TimToady++ is right that specs continue to evolve, it would be a big plus if changes to the Synopses could be restrained somehow after Advent.
15:50 hoelzro Rakudo "Winter Solstice"?
15:51 [particle] pmichaud: consider naming 'stable' releases differently from 'developer' releases
15:51 masak PerlJam: true. it also has a couple of good connotations.
15:51 pmichaud Su-Shee: sure, I recognize that "christmas" is christian already (and I have no problem with that), continuing the same theme might tend to enshrine it
15:51 Su-Shee pmichaud: you could wear red and a white beard and do a ho ho ho while releasing rakudo :)
15:51 masak mberends: why would it be a big plus to stop improving the specs?
15:52 PerlJam Su-Shee++  I like the way you think!
15:52 PerlJam :-)
15:52 masak me too!
15:52 Su-Shee PerlJam: you just wanna see pmichaud as santa ;)
15:52 pmichaud [particle]: I really want to excise the term "stable release" from anything we do.
15:52 masak well, who doesn't?
15:52 TimToady how am I supposed to backlog when y'all type so fast?
15:52 [particle] yeah, i don't really mean stable, anyway
15:52 [particle] i mean milestone or something
15:52 PerlJam Su-Shee: I still see him as a Willy Wonka mostly, so that would be a change  :)
15:52 pmurias the point of a 1.0 is to mark a stable release
15:53 Su-Shee pmichaud: considering the name rakudo one could develop an international name scheme of hildays of all religions
15:53 pmichaud pmurias: except "stable" means different things to different people.  See p5.
15:53 PerlJam Su-Shee: The Gene Wilder version of course
15:53 TimToady you mean stable like parrot 1.0 is stable :P
15:53 awwaiid Rakudo Solstice -- From the depth of winter comes the light
15:53 [particle] /kick TimToady
15:54 pmichaud although going with the Willy Wonka theme, perhaps Rakudo 1.0 is the "Candy Store" release.  :-)
15:54 [particle] :)
15:54 pmichaud and everyone who uses it will be like children in a candy store.
15:54 hoelzro Rakudo "Golden Ticket"?
15:54 Su-Shee rakudo eid (end of ramadan) for example.
15:54 [particle] android is using candy names, well, bakery item names
15:54 pmichaud (Golden Ticket)++
15:54 TimToady I want the world, I want the whole world, I want it now!!!
15:54 pmichaud this is your ticket to paradise.  :-)
15:55 Su-Shee rakudo golden ticket sounds like a drug lord release. ;)
15:55 hoelzro pmichaud: that sounds like something a cult leader would say
15:55 pmichaud well, we do hope that Perl 6 is addictive.
15:55 TimToady call it Gateway.  oh wait...
15:55 masak hoelzro: I like "Golden Ticket"!
15:55 Su-Shee pmichaud: and being filtered by every parental control on the planet? ;)
15:55 pmichaud me, it appears I'm addicted to oxygen.
15:56 hoelzro masak: me too, especially Charlie hasn't arrived at the factory just yet =)
15:56 snearch joined #perl6
15:56 TimToady every now and then I hold my breath to prove I'm not really addicted to oxygen.
15:56 pmichaud TimToady: and you manage to avoid the withdrawal symptoms?
15:56 masak you guys should be careful. oxygen is poisonous.
15:56 masak and very reactive.
15:57 [particle] i'm addicted to nitrogen
15:57 * pmichaud wonders where he could get a Willy Wonka outfit.
15:57 TimToady [particle]: you have Rapture of the Deep?
15:57 pmichaud (and yes, the Gene Wilder version)
15:57 Su-Shee the release cycle of rakudo stays with this monthly releases?
15:58 pmichaud Rakudo will likely continue to have monthly releases for a while
15:58 pmichaud at some point in the future we might move to quarterly releases
15:58 Su-Shee pmichaud: let's ask johnny depp if he's doing the release! :)
15:58 TimToady speaking of Camelia products...
15:59 Su-Shee pmichaud: I was thinking calling it plainly rakudo january, february and so on and later something like easter, vacation, halloween and christmas.
15:59 TimToady I like that
15:59 Su-Shee isn't there something in summer..
16:00 * [particle] turns deep purple
16:00 TimToady apparently nobody has revolutions in August
16:00 Su-Shee easter, revolution, halloween, christmas. ;)
16:00 Su-Shee TimToady: well napoleon and lawrence of arabia are born in august. ;)
16:01 pmurias TimToady: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Revolution
16:01 dukeleto joined #perl6
16:01 TimToady maybe we should start with romulus and remus, and then we'll have more names to use up
16:01 masak :)
16:01 pmichaud Su-Shee: Rakudo already does month names for its releases
16:01 masak it can only go downhill after romulus and remus.
16:02 TimToady but it can only do it seven times
16:02 Su-Shee pmichaud: I thought it perl mongers chapters?
16:02 pmichaud Su-Shee: that also.
16:02 TimToady is there a rome.pm?
16:02 [particle] until you get to the sisyphus release...
16:03 misssingthepoint rofl @ TimToady
16:03 TimToady "rome wasn't built in a day" and all that...
16:03 [particle] too bad the plumbing was lead
16:03 pmichaud Rakudo 1.0 -- "Not built in a day"
16:03 hoelzro pmichaud: I like that a lot
16:04 Su-Shee pmichaud: *hihi* this is pretty funny :)
16:04 [particle] can't wait for the NVTS release
16:04 dakkar yes, there is a Rome.pm
16:05 kane_ joined #perl6
16:06 PerlJam Rakudo 1.0 - vini vidi vici   :-)
16:06 * TimToady backlogs desperately while everyone is panting
16:06 Su-Shee and then we're going to have a cesarian release, a decadence release, a stoic release.. ;)
16:06 hoelzro PerlJam: s/vini/veni/?
16:06 KyleHa Rakudo one point oh hai!
16:06 hoelzro Su-Shee++
16:07 PerlJam hoelzro: yeah, htat
16:07 misssingthepoint s/vini/vino/
16:07 hoelzro misssingthepoint: nice
16:07 TimToady s/vino/veritas/
16:07 Su-Shee .oO(make it a toga instead of a red dress and a white beard ;)
16:07 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
16:07 hoelzro TimToady: veritas ~~ truth, right?
16:08 hoelzro my Latin's terrible
16:08 Su-Shee misssingthepoint: rakudo burgundy, rakudo champagne, rakudo...? ;)
16:08 Su-Shee ("monthly release party!)
16:08 misssingthepoint how about the world's wine regions? I live near Jacob's Creek.
16:08 misssingthepoint Rakudo Napa Valley?
16:09 Su-Shee misssingthepoint: this will lead to many, many french releases. ;)
16:09 misssingthepoint um, yess....
16:10 jimmy_ Perl 6 times coming
16:11 misssingthepoint Rakudo Irresistible?
16:12 Su-Shee rakudo seduction ;)
16:13 TimToady now if I said that, it'd be sexist. :)
16:13 moritz_ as long as we don't name it "rakudo porn star" ;-) ...
16:13 mberends the Rakudo eXPerience :/
16:13 misssingthepoint mberends: sacrilege!
16:13 mberends sry ;-)
16:13 jnthn moritz_: No, no, we need Rakudo to perform like a porn star first. ;-)
16:13 TimToady or at least sixist
16:14 Su-Shee moritz_: *haehae* :)
16:14 misssingthepoint Su-Shee: like you were saying, many many French releases.
16:14 jnthn <ducks>
16:14 Su-Shee jnthn: would you show us..? ;)
16:14 TimToady Perl 6 times coming?!?
16:14 [particle] we could go the musical route, using words like harmony, staccato, and my favorite for a 1.0 release, cadence
16:15 mdxi i'd rather have cheeses than wines. Rakudo Double Gloucester
16:15 Su-Shee TimToady: *ouch* :))
16:15 jnthn eww!!
16:15 * araujo votes for jnthn recommendation
16:15 [particle] there's a cheese local to me named camelia
16:15 TimToady ducking?
16:16 [particle] actually, camellia.
16:16 araujo TimToady, haha, before his duck :D
16:17 jimmy_ Rakudo 1.0 Camellia
16:18 [particle] http://www.redwoodhill.com/cheese.htm :)
16:18 * [particle] could provide many, many, many cheese names for releases
16:19 Su-Shee cheese will probably make half of asia feel nauseous ;)
16:19 Su-Shee (I vote against a rakudo natto release ;)
16:19 [particle] those names might be more fitting for mold/mildew/slime/smop releases
16:20 araujo Rakudo 1.0 Anchovies
16:20 moritz_ rakudo 1.0 "extra cheezburger"
16:20 TimToady there are a lot of STDes
16:20 pmichaud okay, here are a few thoughts
16:20 pmichaud oh wait, brb
16:20 Su-Shee [particle]: rakudo rotten release ;)
16:20 araujo Rakudo 1.0 Milkshake
16:20 [particle] pmichaud needs to be alone with his though
16:20 [particle] *thought
16:21 misssingthepoint Rakudo 1.0: <STD>: Parse it along...
16:22 * misssingthepoint shudders at badness of that.
16:22 [particle] it's catchy.
16:22 TimToady you aren't allowed to shudder at your own bad puns
16:22 pmichaud b
16:22 araujo hahaha
16:22 pmichaud the names here are all excellent ideas, and we might even use some (more)
16:23 pmichaud the point of this is not to come up with a naming scheme (rakudo already has one -- we use .pm groups), but rather to figure out how we can indicate to the wider world that we're beyond development and into "useful product"
16:24 [particle] well, then with cheese names you start with ricotta
16:24 TimToady then name it "Useful" :)
16:24 pmichaud TimToady: yes, I just now thought of that.
16:24 pmichaud But more to the point, the idea I had (possibly bad idea) is that instead of figuring out the name, perhaps we should be drafting the release announcement we'd like to use when we get to that point
16:24 [particle] sounds like you could use a lot of smurf/dwarf names like that
16:24 pmichaud perhaps the release announcement would then tell us the appropriate terms to use
16:26 pmichaud (I knew I could clear a room quickly, but ...)
16:27 PerlJam pmichaud: sounds good to me  :)
16:27 jimmy_ When will come to 1.0?
16:27 * PerlJam wanders off again to help a student with ldap auth issues
16:27 pmichaud jimmy_: is it necessary that we have a 1.0?  (honest question)
16:28 jimmy_ maybe
16:28 misssingthepoint pmichaud: you just have us all thinking :)
16:29 pmichaud I suspect we're all thinking "is that a good idea, or not?"  ;-)
16:29 pmichaud and we're afraid to say either "yes" or "no"  :-P
16:29 cj TimToady: yeah, I asked someone to @tell yo
16:29 Su-Shee pmichaud: if you're concerned with all this "after 10 years" stuff I think it should be an 1.0
16:30 pmichaud Su-Shee: that strikes a chord with me, yes.
16:30 jnthn I think part of working this out is working out the priorities for this Bigger Release, whatever we're going to call it.
16:30 TimToady call it "Ten" then :)
16:30 jnthn And what'll be in it.
16:30 [particle] "Perfect Ten"
16:31 TimToady
16:31 jnthn Or, what must be in it for us to declare "we've reached that point"
16:31 pmichaud jnthn: yes, that's one of our primary tasks at yapc::eu
16:31 jnthn TimToady: Isn't that sky/heaven/imperial?
16:31 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:31 moritz_ if we do release something called "1.0", then please first stress-test rakudo.org if it can stand a slashdot "attack"
16:32 jnthn pmichaud: Right, but I suspect that needs to come before working out names/announcements. Much fun as naming is. ;-)
16:32 pmichaud jnthn: s/come before/as part of/
16:32 pmichaud in many ways, the announcement is "what we want to be announcing"
16:32 pmichaud that tells us what we have to implement
16:33 pmichaud phrased differently, the announcement is our goal
16:33 rfordinal joined #perl6
16:33 jnthn Yes, to some degree I can see that.
16:33 jnthn Though I suspect the path towards the goal - something else we'll want to work out a bit - will be more detailed than that.
16:34 pmichaud certainly
16:34 pmichaud there will be many features that must be present that won't be mentioned in the announcement
16:34 jnthn Right.
16:34 jnthn Thus why I think an announcement would come out of this process, but only be one thing that would come out of it.
16:35 pmichaud right, agreed.
16:35 pmichaud My feeling is that if we're going to be setting expectations, we have to understand that now and can't wait until next Spring to start addressing it.
16:35 jnthn But I do like the notioin that we figure out in advance what we'd like to be announcing.
16:35 jnthn Right.
16:36 Whiteknight joined #perl6
16:36 pmichaud going off on another set of thoughts for a bit
16:37 [particle] The Rakudo development team is proud to announce a future release of Rakudo 1.0: a useful, working, subset of Perl 6.  Contents and Release Date TBD.
16:37 PerlJam [particle]: ship it!
16:37 [particle] :)
16:37 pmichaud [particle]: I like that.
16:37 [particle] wikify it and start adding content.
16:37 pmichaud (I'll leave my other thoughts alone for now, actually.  They have to do with "stable" versus "predictable")
16:37 Su-Shee the "subset" is a little turn-off.
16:38 pmichaud Su-Shee: I'm open for other terms, but "subset" is honest.
16:38 [particle] subset is the goal, we should be clear about that
16:38 PerlJam Su-Shee: for me, after reading that, I'd just want to know what works and what doesn't
16:39 misssingthepoint s/useful/highly useful/ and keep 'subset'?
16:39 Su-Shee pmichaud: subset sounds to me like "it can't do sockets" or something essential like this. main set? I don't know the right english term.
16:39 [particle] to the wiki, please!
16:39 PerlJam Su-Shee: sockets are essential?!?
16:39 Su-Shee misssingthepoint: "highly" usally implies otherwise
16:39 misssingthepoint Su-Shee: true :(
16:39 Su-Shee PerlJam: uhm, networking..? :)
16:40 pmichaud "Rakudo 1.0:  a substantial implementation of Perl 6"
16:40 PerlJam Su-Shee: I use perl all the time without needing networking  :)
16:41 Su-Shee PerlJam: was just an example. make it "can't do file IO" :)
16:41 [particle] how on earth do i create a new documentation page on rakudo.org?
16:41 PerlJam that one would be a showstopper for me  :)
16:41 pmichaud [particle]: if you want it to be wiki, use github
16:42 [particle] ok then
16:42 cdarroch joined #perl6
16:42 pmichaud http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/rakudo
16:42 Su-Shee pmichaud: if I understand you correctly, rakudo release can do the rakudo version of what "today every programming language can do" in terms of features - the fancy stuff like concurrency excluded?
16:42 pmichaud Su-Shee: that seems like a very good approximation, yes.
16:43 pmichaud (and I like this approach)
16:43 Su-Shee pmichaud: then how about "a base implementation of Perl 6"?
16:43 pmichaud or "an implementation of basic Perl 6"
16:44 PerlJam Su-Shee:  for some people concurrency is essential.
16:44 Su-Shee basic was what I wanted to avoid. :)
16:44 pmichaud PerlJam: we can always come up with some feature X that some group will deem "essential"
16:44 jnthn Some of the stuff Rakudo can do is not basic. ;-)
16:44 Su-Shee PerlJam: yes, but it's in comparison not something which I would call "standard feature"
16:44 jan_ joined #perl6
16:44 TimToady concurrency means many different things, but if we do laziness, we'll have most of concurrency already
16:45 [particle] http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/rakudo/​rakudo-10-release-announcement-draft
16:45 pmichaud My purpose is not to say "we fit your requirements" for any value of "your".  Rather it's to say "we fit the requirements for a lot of people, and you might be in that group"
16:45 PerlJam pm: indeed, I think we should just be wary of calling features "fancy"  :)
16:45 pmichaud ...why is that?
16:45 TimToady but then there's also "underpromise and overperform"
16:46 [particle] http://rakudo.org/documentation
16:46 Su-Shee pmichaud: hence my comparison. you probably want to say honestly "you can do with perl 6 what you can do with any other programming language on the market now"
16:46 [particle] ok, folks, edit away.
16:46 PerlJam it kind of trivializes them to those that think them essential.
16:47 [particle] Su-Shee: including segfault occasionally ;)
16:47 * PerlJam is wary of generalizations.
16:47 pmichaud PerlJam: I think that many features of Perl 5 are both "fancy" and "essential to my purposes".
16:47 pmichaud PDL comes to mind.
16:47 PerlJam Su-Shee: lua?  erlang?  ;)
16:48 Su-Shee on the other hand: how many people really "get" perl 6's feature at a glance and in comparison without taking a detailed, very knowledgable look at it? and if so: wouldn't the very first remark everybody is doing "well, nice language - but there's no environment right now" and not really care so much wether or not it has feature x or y?
16:48 pmichaud "scripting language"
16:48 PerlJam pmichaud: haskell?
16:48 pmichaud Su-Shee: ...no environment?
16:48 Su-Shee pmichaud: I mean stuff like DBI, SSL, Gtk, foo, bar..
16:48 PerlJam padre!
16:49 PerlJam :)
16:49 PerlJam Su-Shee: that sounds like "no CPAN"
16:49 pmichaud Su-Shee: I'm hoping that by the time of the release we'll actually have some of those things in place as well.
16:49 Su-Shee pmichaud: I still got the interesting discussion of reddit's switch from lisp to python in my mind.
16:49 pmichaud We certainly should be able to handle standard modules of various forms.  To me that's essential to the release as well -- if we can't do modules, then we're not at "useful" status.
16:50 Su-Shee pmichaud: but it won't be today's CPAN then and I'm sure each and every nitpicker will rub exactly that in. :)
16:50 pmichaud Su-Shee: I'm not aiming at the nitpickers.  We have to be aware of them, but we don't have to convince them.
16:51 misssingthepoint joined #perl6
16:51 pmichaud I'm aiming at the folks who are thinking that maybe they'd like to use Perl 6 but they're not sure it's ready for them yet.
16:52 pmichaud This release is to say "we think we're about ready for you"
16:52 misssingthepoint ... by which i mean it's late. i would love to stay here all night. bye! D/ :)
16:52 Su-Shee but if more or less everything need is already there - then it really isn't a subset anymore, isn't it?
16:52 Su-Shee needed.
16:52 * PerlJam wonders where those people are ...
16:52 pmichaud PerlJam: they exist.  I meet them all the time at conferences.
16:53 PerlJam mostly I tend to hear "Perl 6 rocks!" or "Perl 6 sucks!" and never do I hear/see "Perl 6 sounds interesting ... when will it be read"
16:53 PerlJam er, ready?"
16:53 sri_kraih joined #perl6
16:53 pmichaud "I'd really like to use Perl 6, but I have a difficult time convincing myself (or my managers) to start using it."
16:53 moritz_ PerlJam: I do hear that from fellow perl mongers.
16:53 [particle] database bindings will make perl 6 useful for many
16:54 pmichaud PerlJam: this is classic "early adopter chasm" stuff (see "Crossing the chasm")
16:54 pmichaud People are afraid to jump in until they see others like them jumping in
16:54 Su-Shee pmichaud: actually, I didn't. :) I just got a job exactly with selling "Perl 6 is the future of Perl and we want smoothly change into it, because we commit to perl for another decade"
16:54 pmichaud Su-Shee: excellent!
16:55 PerlJam Su-Shee: and they didn't ask "why?"  or "why not <some other language> instead?"
16:55 Su-Shee well let's see if they really mean it, but they certainly were more then just "interested".
16:55 hoelzro I'd like to write the backend for Try Rakudo! in Perl6, but I want things like chroot and fork =(
16:55 pmichaud hoelzro: I think we might be able to get those for you.
16:55 hoelzro also, given my certain security ideas, I'd need two versions of Rakudo and Parrot on my machine
16:56 hoelzro pmichaud: yay
16:56 pmichaud Maybe not chroot, but fork we should be able to do.
16:56 Su-Shee PerlJam: they've tried a couple of years ago in the era what I call the "perl crisis" ;) but everything else wasn't convincing so they stuck with Perl. Now they like it anyway and don't want to change anymore.
16:56 PerlJam Su-Shee: them++
16:56 hoelzro pmichaud: binding Rakudo to native functions is still a moving target, yes?
16:56 pmichaud hoelzro: yes, but it should be no longer moving by next January
16:57 pmichaud Otherwise Parrot will have missed some major milestones.
16:57 hoelzro pmichaud: is it Parrot we're waiting on?
16:57 PerlJam pmichaud: and parrot has never done that  </sarcasm>
16:57 pmichaud for fork and chroot, I suspect so.
16:57 * PerlJam is in a weird mood today
16:57 hoelzro I was reading up on Parrot opcodes, and it seems like they have dlopen and friends
16:58 pmichaud If parrot already supports fork/chroot at the PIR level, then it should be straightforward to add them to Rakudo.
16:58 pmichaud hoelzro: yes, dlopen exists.
16:58 pmichaud But the interface to calling the native functions is the moving target.
16:58 hoelzro ah I see
16:58 PerlJam hoelzro: yes, the NCI is good, but still a tad clunky (at least last time I looked at it)
16:59 Su-Shee (what I need desperately with a reakudo for real release is a real book..)
16:59 hoelzro I understand if Parrot needs to do special things for fork, but I'd think chroot would be relatively simple
16:59 pmichaud Su-Shee: (stuck with perl)  That sounds like a good article in there somewhere.
16:59 hoelzro unless you need to find/hang on to certain files
16:59 lucs joined #perl6
17:00 Su-Shee pmichaud: they also plainly had no reason to change after perl got back on the track again.
17:00 PerlJam Who have perl 6 books in the works and will they be  ready by Spring 2010?
17:00 pmichaud I don't know that big-publisher perl 6 books will be ready by Spring 2010
17:00 Su-Shee I thought, there was a grant for a book?
17:01 Su-Shee apress got one announced.
17:01 PerlJam Stonehenge -> Learning Perl 6 and TimToady + Damian -> Programming Perl 6 ?  right?
17:01 Su-Shee since 2008 ;)
17:01 pmichaud I'm wondering if we can put something together that's print-on-demand-ish, though.
17:01 * moritz_ would love to do such a thing
17:01 * araujo remember watching a Perl6 book in amazon
17:01 moritz_ who else would contribute?
17:01 PerlJam I'd volunteer for book writing/editing/etc
17:02 Su-Shee me gladly. or at least do some editorial work.
17:02 pmichaud A prominent Perl person (I don't know if he wants to be known yet) already started on one this past weekend.  :-)
17:02 araujo moritz_, I can help testing code and stuff
17:02 araujo :P
17:02 [particle] Whiteknight has experience doing this
17:02 pmichaud but we were discussing it as an online book, with lots of authors
17:02 Su-Shee pmichaud: well we got an ebook reader anyway. ;)
17:03 moritz_ pmichaud: if he wants a contributor, feel free to point him/her in my direction
17:03 Su-Shee book == a real documentation with examples.
17:03 araujo http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_​gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&amp;fiel​d-keywords=perl+6&amp;x=0&amp;y=0
17:03 pmichaud moritz_: I will do that today.
17:03 hoelzro if you ask me, any such book should have a "migration/differences from Perl5 chapter"
17:03 hoelzro or there should a separate book entirely
17:03 Su-Shee moritz_: at least we know that the german it press is sympathizing. ;)
17:04 moritz_ Su-Shee: we do know ;-)
17:04 pmichaud hoelzro: I think that's a separate book, personally.
17:04 Su-Shee I think so too.
17:04 hoelzro pmichaud: there's definitely enough content for it
17:04 hoelzro also, your target audience would be different
17:04 pmichaud The book I'm really interested in is  "Perl 6 for new programmers"   and "Perl 6 for Python/Ruby/Java/JavaScript programmers"
17:05 araujo and Haskell programmers? :P
17:05 hoelzro pmichaud: the latter sounds interesting
17:05 * araujo can help with that part
17:05 moritz_ araujo: I have to admit that I find that book a bit suspicious - to the best of my knowledge, neither of the authors came here or to the mailing lists and asked for clarifications or so
17:05 moritz_ araujo: IMHO that's a bad sign
17:05 araujo moritz_, that's what seems weird to me , really
17:05 araujo moritz_, I find it weird that even nobody here seems to know the authors or even the books
17:05 araujo I don't get it
17:06 Su-Shee araujo: that's the apress perl 6 book I'm talking about.
17:06 moritz_ It's hard for me to imagine that there are people who really grok Perl 6 and don't have questions
17:06 PerlJam araujo: rdice is known
17:06 moritz_ araujo: I know richard dice from his TPF work a bit
17:06 justatheory joined #perl6
17:06 PerlJam I have no clue who James Lee is  though
17:06 araujo ok, but it seems like more people have worked on these books
17:07 Su-Shee we could start with a perl 6 pocket reference. that would be a great help.
17:07 araujo weird that none of them even gets connected to this channel
17:07 PerlJam Su-Shee: I was contemplating writing a Perl 6 Regex quick ref
17:07 araujo considering plenty of development goes on here
17:07 hoelzro PerlJam: that'd be welcome to many, myself included
17:07 Su-Shee PerlJam: I personally need more. I really love those pocket references.
17:08 PerlJam Su-Shee:  sure, but that's a niche  that should be filled at some point though
17:08 Su-Shee PerlJam: but of course: I'll order one! :)
17:08 pmichaud the idea of a "Perl 6 Pocket Reference" also came up at OSCON.  That could possibly be done by Spring 2010
17:08 pmichaud (not just regexes
17:08 araujo Perl 6 in Nutshell ?
17:08 Su-Shee araujo: even better.
17:08 * araujo would like to see that one too
17:09 moritz_ araujo: that would bring us dangerously close to an O'Reilly brand, I think
17:09 PerlJam I've come to dislike nutshell books as they have started to seem like "second tier" books  to me.
17:09 araujo moritz_, well, O'Reilly is a cool guy right?
17:09 araujo :P
17:09 moritz_ araujo: I doubt his laywers are as cool ;-)
17:09 Su-Shee PerlJam: I think you underestimate how difficult it is to actually get a grasp of what Perl 6 already does and contains.
17:09 pmichaud I think the context of "Perl 6 in a Nutshell" was that O'Reilly would publish it, I think.
17:10 araujo moritz_, hah, right, cool except when it is about money
17:10 araujo :P
17:10 PerlJam Su-Shee: I don't think so.  :)
17:10 araujo pmichaud, what I meant ....
17:10 Su-Shee PerlJam: but you already know all this stuff! :)
17:10 hoelzro pmichaud: that reminds me, did you read my thoughts on security for Try Rakudo?
17:11 pmichaud hoelzro: where are they?
17:11 * araujo thinks other successful name would be "Perl 6 From Moritz"
17:11 PerlJam Su-Shee: no, I only know the parts well that intersect useful and interesting *for me*.
17:11 pmichaud hoelzro: (no, I don't think I read them)
17:11 hoelzro in Sunday's log =(
17:11 hoelzro pmichaud: I can send you an e-mail if you'd like
17:11 araujo moritz_, considering you have plenty of doc about it :P
17:11 pmichaud hoelzro: I'll go back and read them.  I've not had a good chance to backlog yet.
17:11 * hoelzro still needs to get on the mailing list
17:11 moritz_ araujo: thanks :)
17:11 hoelzro mkay
17:11 PerlJam Su-Shee: there's tons of stuff in perl 6 that I don't know
17:11 araujo moritz_, pretty much where I have been learning from :)
17:12 hoelzro PerlJam: that's part of the point: it's an adventure!
17:12 hoelzro Rakudo "Adventure Island"
17:12 PerlJam Ah ... James Lee is the guy who took over "Beginning Perl"
17:12 PerlJam hoelzro: I'm all for Rakudo 1.0: Advent  (punning is what we do :)
17:13 hoelzro PerlJam: I'm a big fan of Advent
17:13 pmichaud Once again, I'm not looking for a name.
17:13 pmichaud (Unless we decide that we not use .pm groups for names)
17:15 pmichaud i.e., I'm not looking for   "Rakudo 1.0: Foo", where "Foo" is the name of the Rakudo 1.0 release.  I'm looking for  "Rakudo Foo", where "Foo" describes the classification of the release (beta, developer, production, etc.)
17:15 moritz_ pmichaud: (unrelated) btw I'm available to do the next rakudo release, but I'd prefer it somebody who never did it volunteered
17:15 pmichaud moritz_: Agreed, I want to build up a team of release managers
17:15 pmichaud moritz_: but you'll be the fallback if we FAIL at getting someone else to do it.
17:15 pmichaud I think jnthn++ should do one, though :-)
17:16 moritz_ .oO( I'll be your CATCH block if you fail() )
17:16 Su-Shee ooooh perl 6 romance! ;)
17:16 PerlJam Is there music to go with that song?
17:16 pmichaud I think PerlJam should do one, too.
17:16 moritz_ aye
17:16 PerlJam pmichaud: I will.  As soon as I get over this "I'm not worthy" thing
17:17 PerlJam or "I'll screw something up" or "I suck" or whatever
17:17 pmichaud PerlJam: I hereby dub thee "worthy".
17:17 moritz_ PerlJam: I think you need mst screaming "you're not good enough" at you ;-)
17:17 pmichaud You're now the August release unless you convince me otherwise. :-) :-)
17:17 pmichaud (Or find me another vict...volunteer.)
17:18 PerlJam pmichaud: give me October.  (It's my birthday month so I'm partial to it)
17:18 pmichaud Okay, you get October.
17:18 PerlJam Give masak August
17:18 pmichaud (on phone)
17:19 hoelzro is '...' not yet impl'd, or has that been removed?
17:19 moritz_ PerlJam: did you submit a CLA already?
17:19 PerlJam moritz_: long ago.
17:19 moritz_ hoelzro: which '...' do you mean? the operator? or the term?
17:20 PerlJam moritz_: *that's* the kind of thing that grok should do  :)
17:20 PerlJam grok '...'  #  Which ... do you mean?
17:20 hoelzro moritz_: the yadda yadda yadda operator
17:20 moritz_ rakudo: ...
17:20 hoelzro eg. fail alias
17:20 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/YzpnxMhUz3:2)␤»
17:20 hoelzro it parses ok when I try, but it doesn't puke
17:20 hoelzro when run
17:20 moritz_ hoelzro: fail() is not the same as die()
17:21 kane_ joined #perl6
17:21 moritz_ hoelzro: ie it will give you an undef which contains an unthrown exception (if all works well)
17:21 lisppaste3 mkelly32 pasted "spectest failures on freebsd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84323
17:21 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = { ... }; $x = $x.(); say $x.WHAT
17:21 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/KvwaOHhG8y:2)␤»
17:21 * hoelzro needs to re-read that spec
17:21 mkelly32 lemme know what other info you need from that ^^
17:21 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = sub { ... }; $x = $x.(); say $x.WHAT
17:22 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
17:22 moritz_ mkelly32: is that latest rakudo?
17:22 mkelly32 that's w/ 2009-07-28-gea667e8
17:22 hoelzro moritz_: how's that supposed to propagate?
17:22 hoelzro if someone calls a method on that return value?
17:22 moritz_ for example, yes
17:23 moritz_ but I must admit that I haven't grokked all the details yet
17:24 mkelly32 moritz_: full build log, if that's helpful: http://test.pioto.org/rakudo-​smoke-2009-07-28T10:22:59.log
17:25 PerlJam hoelzro: !!! is die,  ... is fail, and ??? is warn.
17:25 PerlJam (I don't think rakudo does all of those yet)
17:26 hoelzro PerlJam: that's what I thought
17:26 hoelzro I implemented them for Pugs a few years ago, but I don't know if they've changed
17:34 kst joined #perl6
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17:40 payload joined #perl6
17:53 colomon 22222+
17:53 colomon whoops.  never mind.
18:09 arthur-_ joined #perl6
18:14 hoelzro does Perl 6 have a facility to intercept unknown method calls (like AUTOLOAD in Perl 5)?
18:14 moritz_ it does (but NYI in Rakudo)
18:15 moritz_ grep for CANDO
18:15 hoelzro grep the specs?
18:15 s1n left #perl6
18:15 molaf joined #perl6
18:17 moritz_ yes
18:17 hoelzro mkay
18:23 PerlJam o/~ I got the horse right here
18:23 PerlJam The name is Paul Revere
18:23 PerlJam And here's a guy that says that the weather's clear
18:23 PerlJam Can do, can do, this guy says the horse can do
18:23 PerlJam If he says the horse can do, can do, can do.
18:23 PerlJam Oops, that all should have been one line.
18:23 moritz_ it's visually much nicer on multiiple lines ;-)
18:23 Chillance joined #perl6
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18:35 pmichaud I like it on multiple lines.
18:36 pmichaud although I thought it was "if the weather's clear"
18:36 pmurias hoelzro: or better ack the specs ;)
18:36 PerlJam yeah.
18:36 pmichaud buubot:  spack CANDO
18:36 buubot pmichaud: Couldn't match input.
18:36 hoelzro pmurias: I actually did use ack to find it =)
18:36 PerlJam Not enough Guys & Dolls material in Perl 6  :)
18:37 pmichaud PerlJam++   # bringing Broadway to #perl6
18:37 fridim_ joined #perl6
18:42 arthur-_ joined #perl6
18:45 pmurias what would be even better then ack would be an ack using Perl 6 rules
18:45 alester Rewrites welcome. :-)
18:49 PerlJam I even started an ack-a-like for perl6 a while back.  Didn't get very far beyond playing with recursing into dirs though
18:49 alester My first Perl 6 project is going to be writing File::Next in it.
18:50 pugs_svn r27782 | pmurias++ | [re-smop]
18:50 pugs_svn r27782 | pmurias++ | implemented until, infix:< <= >, infix:< >= >
18:50 pugs_svn r27782 | pmurias++ | added ../../t/spec/S04-statements/until.t to TESTS
18:55 moritz_ btw KyleHa has made it into the top 10 test suite committers
19:02 KyleHa Woohoo!!
19:03 KyleHa I been gone for two hours, and I come back to find that.  It's like dessert.
19:04 moritz_ acutually you're top 7 ;-)
19:04 KyleHa Is there a list somewhere?
19:05 moritz_ I can paste one, hold on a sec...
19:05 lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "top contributors to the test suite" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84340
19:06 KyleHa Wow, neat.  Thanks!
19:07 moritz_ it's basically the same script as in rakudo's tool/commit-stats.pl
19:07 moritz_ used on the git-svn clone of t/
19:07 KyleHa I'll have a look at that when I get a chance.
19:07 KyleHa I'm in a big-ish meeting right now, almost participating.
19:08 moritz_ lol
19:08 * jnthn didn't know we have a commit-stats script
19:08 moritz_ 3
19:09 jnthn aww
19:09 jnthn List form of pipe open not implemented at tools\commit-stats.pl line 8.
19:10 moritz_ windows :/
19:11 moritz_ jnthn: you can try open my $c, 'git log --pretty=format:%ae|%ci |'
19:11 moritz_ instead
19:11 moritz_ it's less secure, but probably implemented on windows
19:12 jnthn moritz_: heh, that just gives me a different error ;-)
19:12 jnthn windows :/
19:12 moritz_ jnthn: which one now?
19:13 jnthn '%ci' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
19:13 jnthn operable program or batch file.
19:13 jnthn Died at tools\commit-stats.pl line 20.
19:13 moritz_ ah, that's the close() line
19:13 moritz_ you can comment that out and ignore it, I guess :)
19:13 [particle] it's the pipe in the format
19:14 jnthn ah
19:14 [particle] need double quotes after pretty=
19:14 moritz_ or you use a ':' and change the split in line 13
19:14 jnthn payload: bwa, that complains Can't run git log: Invalid argument. ;-)
19:15 moritz_ should I just nopaste the output for you? ;-)
19:15 jnthn same with colons
19:15 jnthn bleh
19:15 jnthn heh, if you want
19:15 jnthn I'm not that bothered to know if I'm beating pmichaud yet. ;-)
19:15 [particle] you need git installed and in path
19:16 jnthn Just hadn't even realized we had such a script.
19:16 [particle] hrmm,
19:16 [particle] git log --pretty=format:%ae:%ci
19:16 [particle] works for me
19:16 lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "Rakudo top committers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84341
19:16 jnthn [particle]: Works for me too at the momment line. Hmm.
19:17 [particle] nice slip.
19:17 jnthn Awww...I'm still WAY behind.
19:17 PerlJam hey!  I made the top 15.  /me is shocked
19:17 jnthn Gah! s/moment/command/
19:17 [particle] jnthn: you're 70% there
19:19 jnthn [particle]: Yeah, but it's a moving target. ;-)
19:20 jnthn (Which is a *good* thing!)
19:23 mberends jnthn: if your % score is rising, you can extrapolate to the 100% time and beyond ;)
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19:38 pugs_svn r27783 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Refudge test in S32-list/grep.t .
19:39 jnthn pmichaud: I'm going to fix the WALK tests that I somehow missed yesterday later on today.
19:39 pmichaud okay, good.  I was just looking at those.
19:39 jnthn Yeah, it was late, I was tired... :-)
19:39 pmichaud I know that I fixed the grep.t tests yesterday as well,  but apparently the commit got lost somewhere.
19:39 jnthn And a little eager to get the various assorted fixes landed.
19:40 moritz_ pmichaud: "Refudge" - when had it was it unfudged?
19:40 pmichaud moritz_: the test itself needed some refactoring.  Perhaps "refudge" is the wrong word tehre.
19:40 pmichaud For one, it's using $_ as a rw param, and I'm not sure that's correct yet.
19:41 jnthn That is dubious, yes.
19:41 justatheory joined #perl6
19:41 moritz_ $_ defaults to is context<rw> I thought?
19:41 pmichaud that says it's rw to inner contexts
19:41 pmichaud it doesn't say anything about rw-ness of the outer value it's initially bound to
19:41 moritz_ oh.
19:42 pmichaud S04 says it's rw
19:42 pmichaud If you rely on C<$_> as the implicit parameter to a block,
19:42 pmichaud then C<$_> is considered read/write by default.  That is,
19:42 pmichaud the construct:
19:42 pmichaud for @foo {...}
19:42 pmichaud is actually short for:
19:42 pmichaud for @foo <-> $_ {...}
19:42 pmichaud so Rakudo seems to get that wrong.
19:43 pmichaud although earlier in the synopsis we have
19:43 pmichaud $func = { .print if $_ };   # Same as: $func = -> $_ { .print if $_ };
19:43 pmichaud I'm guessing that should be rewritten to be <-> instead of ->
19:44 pmichaud (that last line is what was throwing me off)
19:44 TimToady yes, s/b <->
19:45 pmichaud (fixing)
19:45 jnthn Aha.
19:45 jnthn OK, good to know.
19:45 pmichaud fixed.
19:46 pugs_svn r27784 | pmichaud++ | Fix incorrect specification of implicit $_ in blocks.
19:46 pmichaud when we fix it in rakudo, the grep.t test should pass (and should be unfudge-able)
19:46 pmichaud defudged
19:46 jnthn unfudged
19:46 jnthn ;-)
19:46 pmichaud does anyone else besides me dislike the output format of Test::Harness 3?
19:47 pmichaud I find it much harder to read the summary.
19:47 pmichaud (compared to earlier versions)
19:47 moritz_ it took me a while to get used to it
19:47 pmichaud what's worse, passing TODOs are visually indistinct from FAILS
19:48 jnthn That irks me.
19:48 jnthn I've been confused by that before now.
19:48 moritz_ same here
19:48 moritz_ (speaking of which, I should clean up the new passing TODOs)
19:48 pmichaud I'm doing some now.
19:48 pmichaud So I can get them out of my test output :-)
19:49 moritz_ ok, I'll let you do it then
19:49 pugs_svn r27785 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge passing todo in S02-*/type.t .
19:50 pugs_svn r27786 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge passing todo test in S12-enums/thorough.t .
19:51 jnthn pmichaud: lol, I fudged fails in S12-enums/thorough.t yesterday
19:52 * jnthn wonders if we came out equal on balance.
19:58 donaldh joined #perl6
19:59 jnthn OK, this is The Cool
19:59 jnthn If you look at S12, and exclude the multiple constraints section which is marked as not 6.0.0 anyway
20:00 jnthn There's only "=head1 Class methods" that we don't really have any coverage of at all in Rakudo.
20:00 jnthn And hey, it's in my Hague Grant to do that. :-)
20:00 * jnthn reads and ponders how to do it
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20:02 TimToady moritz_: have answered your p6l
20:02 TimToady but hasn't left my machine yet, sigh
20:02 pmichaud oh
20:02 * pmichaud ran to the mailing list and saw.... nothing.
20:05 jnthn TimToady: "Alternately, you can associate a class method with the current metaclass instance,
20:05 jnthn "
20:05 jnthn TimToady: Would a reasonable implementation of this be to collect such methods into some anonymous role and mix it in to the metaclass instnace?
20:06 jnthn (This is from section I just mentioned in S12)
20:06 jnthn Or does that cry out "OH NOES" to you?
20:08 TimToady nothing OH NOES me, but then few things do offhand.  :)
20:08 jnthn :-)
20:08 jnthn OK, I'll try it that way.
20:10 jnthn std: class Foo { method ^bar() { } }
20:10 p6eval std 27786: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
20:11 TimToady moritz_: okay, went thru
20:15 pmichaud TimToady: your explication matches my understanding of things :-)
20:15 * pmichaud re-reads to make sure.
20:15 moritz_ TimToady: thanks, I'll read it carefully when I'm not on phone anymore ;-)
20:16 pmichaud but yes, the basic idea is that   @a[0] = ...    is a list assignment and not item assignment
20:18 campuscodi joined #perl6
20:19 campuscodi hello. is anybody available to answer me a question ?
20:19 pmichaud "Yes."
20:20 hoelzro campuscodi: you only get one, and that was it.
20:20 campuscodi i'm a news writer for softpedia.com (webmasters section) I would like to write an article about current Perl 6 development. Can you point me at some articles or pages were I could get some knowledge ?
20:21 campuscodi I'm interested in new features, important changes and so on
20:21 pmichaud sdtimes.com recently ran an article about Rakudo Perl 6
20:21 pmichaud but that was more about availability than Perl 6 features
20:22 pmichaud start with perl6-projects.org
20:22 * jnthn didn't see that article
20:22 pmichaud also check  planetsix.perl.org
20:24 pmichaud jnthn: http://www.sdtimes.com/link/33566
20:25 campuscodi ok. thank you very much. if I find enough good information around and I'll get to write about this topic I'll be sure to credit you :P @pmichaud
20:25 pmichaud campuscodi: that would be great.
20:25 moritz_ campuscodi: if you have more specific questions, also feel free to ask here
20:25 pmichaud campuscodi: if you need more information, here's a good place to ask
20:25 [particle] you two beat me to it
20:25 kst joined #perl6
20:26 [particle] pmichaud: are your oscon slides online?
20:26 [particle] they should have details on new features etc
20:26 jnthn pmichaud: nice article
20:27 pmichaud [particle]: my oscon talk wasn't about perl 6 features -- that's normally TheDamian and TimToady's talk
20:27 [particle] ah, right, silly me.
20:27 pmichaud (as was the case again this year)
20:27 pmichaud that said, my slides are online in their usual place:    pmichaud.com/2009/pres
20:28 campuscodi actually this lecture http://en.oreilly.com/oscon200​9/public/schedule/detail/8061 made me wanna write something about the topic
20:28 [particle] wasn't sure if you'd uploaded the latest yet, i'll take a look at your revamped pres
20:28 pmichaud it was substantially reworked for oscon, yes.
20:28 pmichaud I like the new talk much better than the one I gave at yapc::na.
20:28 pmichaud (it's much more focused)
20:29 cbk In perl 6 is there some trailing white space remover like chomp or I think I've seen something like trim...?
20:29 pmichaud cbk:  trim exists.
20:29 pmichaud rakudo:   say "Hello world     ".trim.chars
20:29 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«11␤»
20:29 moritz_ rakudo: say ' Hello World   '.trim.perl
20:29 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«"Hello World"␤»
20:30 cbk so I can do $myVarHasASpaceAtEnd.trim
20:30 cbk what is that .perl
20:30 moritz_ cbk: also .chomp exists, which just removes a trailing newline, and return s the modified string
20:30 moritz_ cbk: .perl is like Data::Dumper
20:30 moritz_ ie it returns perl code that builds the data structure
20:31 cbk is there a consolidated list of all of these .coolFunc (.trim and .perl) out there?
20:32 cbk they are like built in functions
20:32 moritz_ cbk: http://perlcabal.org/syn/ scroll down to S32
20:32 [particle] oh, pmichaud, yesterday i built and tested ins2 with msvc.  all's well.
20:33 cbk thanks :-)
20:33 pmichaud [particle]: \o/
20:33 pmichaud [particle]: that's really good to hear.
20:34 pmichaud I know there's an issue with Solaris builds... have to work on that one a bit.
20:34 [particle] pmichaud: where else do you need coverage?
20:34 pmichaud what is Parrot's list of platforms?
20:35 pmichaud if we cover the Parrot list I'm happy for now.
20:38 campuscodi thank you very much guys. have a good night .... or day :))
20:40 pmichaud rakudo:  enum Color <white gray black>; say ?(Color.pick == any(Color::white, Color::gray, Color::black));
20:40 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
20:40 pmichaud jnthn: ^^^    # I think this is a related fail to changes made yesterday
20:41 pmichaud (t/spec/S12-enums/basic.t)
20:41 jnthn Oh?
20:41 jnthn hmm, it fails here too :-S
20:41 jnthn I was sure that passed :-(
20:42 pmichaud I'm not sure if I introduced the fail or you did.
20:42 szabgab joined #perl6
20:42 jnthn I remember fuding a different test in that file yesterday.
20:42 jnthn I thought I had a clean run on it after that.
20:42 jnthn Though I could easily be mistaken.
20:43 jnthn It involves junctions, which would make what I did feel more likely to be to blame..
20:43 jnthn OTOH, all of the junctions tests passed fine (I didn't fudge any of the S03-junctions/*.t)
20:44 pmichaud I adjusted Code.ACCEPTS and Regex.ACCEPTS, so that seems less likely to be the culprit.
20:44 jnthn Right.
20:46 dalek rakudo: 7700f40 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
20:46 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 423 files, 12033 passing, 14 failing
20:46 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
20:46 dalek rakudo:     S12-enums/basic.rakudo aborted 2 test(s)
20:46 dalek rakudo:     S12-introspection/walk.t aborted 6 test(s)
20:46 dalek rakudo:     S32-list/grep.rakudo aborted 6 test(s)
20:46 limpmsngr joined #perl6
20:46 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​700f40917edc73ca4ef866c0a6b4140da6be1bb
20:48 cbk rakudo: my $textLine2 = "mrGreen 01 02 123 "; say "Patern: $textLine2"; if $textLine2 ~~ /(<[a..zA..Z]>+\s)(\d+\s)(\d+\s)(\d+)/ {say "last match vars are: $0,$1,$2,$3 "; $name = $0.trim; } say "Name is:$name.";
20:48 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "say \"Name "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3343)␤»
20:49 moritz_ cbk: there's a non-printable character in your input, before the 'say'
20:49 moritz_ probably from copy & pasting
20:49 cbk oh ok let me try again...
20:50 cbk my $textLine2 = "mrGreen 01 02 123 "; if $textLine2 ~~ /(<[a..zA..Z]>+\s)(\d+\s)(\d+\s)(\d+)/ {say "last match vars are: $0,$1,$2,$3 "; $name = $0.trim; } say "Name is:$name.";
20:51 cbk rakudo: my $textLine2 = "mrGreen 01 02 123 "; if $textLine2 ~~ /(<[a..zA..Z]>+\s)(\d+\s)(\d+\s)(\d+)/ {say "last match vars are: $0,$1,$2,$3 "; $name = $0.trim; } say "Name is:$name.";
20:51 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "say \"Name "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3343)␤»
20:51 cbk well it works on my perl 6 box
20:51 PerlJam missing semicolon
20:52 PerlJam rakudo:  if 1 { say "hi" } say "bye";
20:52 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "say \"bye\";"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3343)␤»
20:52 PerlJam rakudo:  if 1 { say "hi" }; say "bye";
20:52 p6eval rakudo ea667e: OUTPUT«hi␤bye␤»
20:52 cbk the .trim works just fine. if I do the .trim.perl it put the var in " "'s
20:53 dalek rakudo: 426942a | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/eval.pir:
20:53 dalek rakudo: Correct problem with statement-style package declarators (RT #67976).
20:53 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​26942ad2255572fc3d89aec984ec439f09404de
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21:05 dalek rakudo: 5b477c0 | pmichaud++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:05 dalek rakudo: Note the release manager for each of the previous releases,
21:05 dalek rakudo: and put PerlJam++ (duff) on the hook for the October 2009 release.
21:05 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​b477c0887fb08fbc3aab6d4debdbd88a791ba88
21:06 PerlJam uhoh ... it's "for real" now  :)
21:07 pmichaud OKAY!  WHO ELSE IS GOING TO DO A RELEASE?!?
21:07 pmichaud VOLUNTEERS NEEDED NOW, OR I'LL START PICKING NICKS AT RANDOM!
21:07 pmichaud I've got a commit bit, and I"M NOT AFRAID TO USE IT!!!
21:08 jnthn OMFG
21:08 * jnthn runs away from the mad Texan
21:09 pmichaud You there!  Yes, you with the beers!  When's your release?!?  ;-)
21:09 jnthn Erm.
21:09 jnthn Not September because I'm on vacation.
21:10 jnthn Feel free to put me down for Oct/Nov/Dec.
21:10 pmichaud Oct is taken.
21:10 jnthn Erm
21:10 pmichaud November it is.
21:10 pmichaud although maybe we should give masak++ November :-P
21:10 jnthn that is <oct nov dec>.pick, not .all ;-)
21:10 jnthn Oh yes!
21:10 PerlJam yeah, masak should get November
21:10 * moritz_ wanted to suggest the same thing too
21:10 pmichaud Then he can really be in charge of "the November release"  :-)
21:11 jnthn I think he'll be approving. :-)
21:11 moritz_ and "November.pm" gets a new meaning ;-)
21:11 pmichaud I'll reserve November for masak++, if he'll accept.
21:11 pmichaud jnthn:  you're on the hook for Dec, unless I can get other volunteers
21:11 iblechbot joined #perl6
21:11 jnthn pmichaud: That's fine. I'm happy to step aside to let others get involved though.
21:12 PerlJam no one wants August or September.  :)
21:12 pmichaud (I'm wanting to increase the number of committers/participants; since you already have plenty of commits, we'll save it for another time)
21:12 jnthn pmichaud: Given I'm already plenty involved. ;-)
21:12 pmichaud jnthn: indeed.
21:12 jnthn But if nobody steps up, I'm happy to do it.
21:12 pmichaud well, I think I'll be recruiting folks to do it at yapc::eu :-)
21:12 jnthn Yeah!
21:13 pmichaud "Immortalize your name in Perl 6.  Become a release manager.  Half a days work for immortality."
21:13 * jnthn just wrote some code in actions.pm, looked at it, thought "pm will kick my ass for this" and ended up re-writing it better :-)
21:13 pmichaud jnthn++  # smart move
21:13 moritz_ code review++
21:14 moritz_ .oO( immoralize your name )
21:14 jnthn It gets kinda fun when your code review comes down to, "what would this person say if they looked at my code" :-)
21:14 pmichaud it's nice that the mere threat of code review is enough to get someone to rewrite code :)
21:15 [particle] pm: list me
21:16 moritz_ [particle]: when? August? September?
21:16 pmichaud [particle]: pick your month.  October is taken.
21:16 moritz_ so is November (probably)
21:16 jnthn pmichaud: Was there a way in PAST to say "I want to look up this PAST::Block"?
21:16 pmichaud jnthn: you can give the block a .subid, and then use that .subid in a reference
21:17 pmichaud look for ".subid" in actions.pm for an example
21:17 jnthn Ah, that'll do it.
21:17 [particle] i'm doing parrot in september, might as well do rakudo too
21:17 jnthn Go for the double!
21:17 [particle] and i'd like to name it for seattle.pm
21:17 pmichaud particle: done
21:17 pmichaud jnthn: you can also request a .subid from a PAST::Block, which will bind it at that point
21:17 pmichaud (and generate a unique subid for you)
21:18 jnthn pmichaud: even beter
21:18 jnthn Thanks.
21:19 * jnthn doesn't find .subid anywhere in actions.pm :-S
21:20 pmichaud oh
21:20 pmichaud hmmm
21:20 pmichaud I know there's a way to get a reference to a blockk, yes.
21:20 pmichaud don't remember what it is, then
21:24 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
21:24 dalek rakudo: 2665eef | pmichaud++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:24 dalek rakudo: Add particle++ for the September release.
21:24 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​665eefb68b3b234a4ec2484fb08c987cbf73d6d
21:32 snearch joined #perl6
21:33 zamolxes joined #perl6
21:35 jnthn gah! Parrot's MMD strikes again... :-/
21:36 pmichaud afk, errands
21:37 dukeleto joined #perl6
21:42 maja__ joined #perl6
21:46 jnthn TimToady: Hmm. One curiosity of a method ^count { return $count }
21:46 jnthn Is that when invoked as $instance.^count
21:46 jnthn Then it'll be given $instance as a first parameter
21:47 jnthn I guess that's fine, you just gotta declare it with a signature that's sufficiently permissive.
21:47 jnthn (e.g. that accepts that parameter)
21:47 xomas_ joined #perl6
21:49 jnthn pmichaud: block does have a .subid, we just weren't using it.
21:53 jnthn And it worked just how I wanted. Great. Now it works _and_ the generated code doesn't suck.
21:56 jnthn TimToady: As a minor side-note, I couldn't follow STD.pm in method_def because it doesn't capture the <[ ! ^ ]> in any way, and it needs capturing for the action method.
22:05 jnthn rakudo: enum Color <white gray black>; say Color.pick
22:05 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«Color()␤»
22:07 moritz_ .oO( masak! )
22:07 moritz_ it seems to treat Color as a 1-item list
22:08 PerlJam But it is a 1 item list.
22:08 moritz_ rakudo: enum Color <white gray black>; say white;
22:08 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«0␤»
22:08 moritz_ PerlJam: but .pick is defined for enums too
22:08 moritz_ and that candidate should win
22:08 jnthn Yeah
22:08 jnthn It should.
22:09 jnthn We already have a test fail at the moemnt from this.
22:10 moritz_ then I'm happy
22:10 moritz_ I thought it was another testing FAIL
22:10 jnthn No
22:10 jnthn I think I know what the issue is.
22:10 jnthn But I'm not quite sure how to fix it.
22:11 moritz_ with magic.
22:11 jnthn Basically, we want a role type to be narrower than Any
22:11 jnthn So sigil based dispatch works.
22:11 jnthn But now the dispatch, when punning, will see the pick method from Any and choose that one.
22:12 jnthn Rather than punning the role and calling the .pick
22:12 jnthn rakudo: enum Color <white gray black>; say Color.new.pick
22:12 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«1␤»
22:12 jnthn Aye
22:13 jnthn I think it's an issue with the way we pun.
22:13 moritz_ bad puns? ;-)
22:13 moritz_ would be nothing new in here ;-)
22:14 jnthn Aye, bad puns.
22:14 jnthn Well, lack of puns actually.
22:14 jnthn Which is not a #perl6 problem. ;-0
22:14 [particle] seven days without puns makes one week
22:16 jnthn I haven't got a quick fix that isn't an epic hack.
22:16 jnthn I think the answer is "fix role punning" though.
22:21 masak joined #perl6
22:21 * jnthn decides to sleep on it and look again tomorrow
22:21 masak jnthn: sleep tight.
22:21 jnthn lolizmasak
22:21 masak yes, who cannot sleep.
22:21 jnthn masak: Oh, I'm not going to bed right now.
22:21 masak ok, good.
22:21 jnthn masak: I'd not be able to sleep this early.
22:21 masak because I found a bug for you. :)
22:22 jnthn masak: I just don't have a good answer for something tonight and am hoping sleep will magically make things clear to me. ;-)
22:22 masak it sometimes does.
22:22 jnthn And your bug, sir?
22:23 masak jnthn: well, I'll try and minimize it, but if you're impatient, just do 'perl6 druid'.
22:23 masak it's right there.
22:24 masak I can paste the result of that one right now and then try to minimize.
22:24 masak the error looks like something you did. :)
22:24 moritz_ masak: we discussed prospective Rakudo release mmanagers earlier... would you do the November release?
22:24 jnthn Heh, well, I did stop Rakudo lying to itself in various ways last night.
22:25 jnthn It's entirely possible there were some places the tests didn't catch.
22:25 masak moritz_: that would be very fitting. yes, please.
22:25 masak jnthn: http://gist.github.com/157719
22:25 masak jnthn: don't know when the bug appeared, because apparently another bug has hidden it for two months. pmichaud++ fixed that one today.
22:25 jnthn Hmm
22:26 masak "November has been released?" -- "Nono, it's the November release of Rakudo!" -- "Ah, Rakudo November?" -- "No, it's called Rakudo Baghdad."
22:26 masak jnthn: I'll try to make the bug Druid-independent.
22:28 moritz_ in method Druid::Game::Subject[]::attach (/Users/masak/gwork/druid/li​b/Druid/Game/Subject.pm:21)
22:28 moritz_ what does the [] mean?
22:29 moritz_ that it's a role?
22:29 masak yes.
22:29 moritz_ or a parameterized role?
22:29 masak it's not.
22:29 masak at least not by me.
22:29 dalek rakudo: e2d6f13 | jnthn++ | src/ (3 files):
22:29 dalek rakudo: Implement declaration of methods on the metaclass (e.g. method ^foo($obj, ... ) { ... }). Also we toss the use of Parrot's MMD in calling !meta_compose; it's less code to not use it anyway.
22:29 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​2d6f13fe553b079279a21140634384c950c88dd
22:29 dalek rakudo: 6999e58 | moritz++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
22:29 dalek rakudo: [docs] masak++ is release manager for November
22:29 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​999e58987ccb4a94d40787ac66064e1b026d230
22:29 moritz_ ok, I clearly haven't written enough in Perl 6 yet ;-)
22:29 masak moritz_: waitwait, I still get to prove myself, right?
22:29 masak I was looking forward to that.
22:30 masak it seemed fun.
22:30 moritz_ masak: yes. But you have more than 3 months, I'm sure you can do it in that time ;-)
22:30 * masak hopes so
22:32 _Jedai_ joined #perl6
22:33 jnthn sorry, net connection had a fail
22:33 masak argh, this bug is slippery. :/
22:33 jnthn what does the [] mean? # that it's a version of the role that takes no parameters
22:33 jnthn All roles are parametric in a sense.
22:34 jnthn role Foo { } is just like role Foo[] { }
22:34 jnthn Since you'd also want having declared either of those to write role Foo[$bar] { } too
22:34 moritz_ I expected something along these lines, thanks
22:34 moritz_ multi role Foo[$bar, $baz] ... :/
22:35 * jnthn is impressed that scp that is backing up a bunch of files from his server was able to resumre without any input after the connection came back to life.
22:35 jnthn moritz_: Well, yeah, but the multi is implicit.
22:36 jferrero joined #perl6
22:36 jnthn But under the hood, it does use the multi-dispatcher.
22:36 moritz_ so it does ordinary multi dispatch under th... wow
22:36 jnthn Yeah, so you have the full power of multiple dispatch available to you when deciding which role you're going to compose.
22:40 moritz_ rakudo: role A[*@b] { method x { say @b.perl } }; class B does A[2, 3, 4] { }; B.new.x
22:40 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«[2, 3, 4]␤»
22:40 moritz_ that *is* scary.
22:40 * masak is scared
22:40 * moritz_ must remember to write some tests for that
22:40 masak :)
22:41 moritz_ but first: sleep.
22:41 masak rakudo: class A is B {}; class B {}
22:41 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'␤in Main (/tmp/iFdZb7lajB:2)␤»
22:41 masak that error message, can it be made slightly more awesome?
22:42 moritz_ rakudo: class A is B {};␤class B {}
22:42 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'␤in Main (/tmp/W987Ujtr2b:2)␤»
22:43 jnthn Well, it's telling you the truth. ;-)
22:43 al23 joined #perl6
22:44 masak jnthn: that's why I didn't say "o_O" or "wtf?" :)
22:44 jnthn masak: Yeah. I guess
22:44 masak just talking about aesthetics.
22:44 * jnthn ponders
22:45 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class A, *%foo) { die "Maybe you did stuff in the wrong order" }; class A is B { }; class B { };
22:45 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "A, *%foo) "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3343)␤»
22:46 jnthn oh
22:46 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class A, *%foo) { }
22:46 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "A, *%foo) "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3343)␤»
22:46 jnthn oh duh
22:46 jnthn i fail
22:46 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class, *%foo) { }
22:46 p6eval rakudo 2665ee:  ( no output )
22:47 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class, *%foo) { die "Maybe you did stuff in the wrong order" }; class A is B { }; class B { };
22:47 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«Maybe you did stuff in the wrong order␤in sub trait_mod:is (/tmp/Nax3qB8JnT:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/Nax3qB8JnT:2)␤»
22:47 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class, *%) { die "No matching trait; did you forget to forward-delcare a class?" }; class A is B { }; class B { };
22:48 p6eval rakudo 2665ee: OUTPUT«No matching trait; did you forget to forward-delcare a class?␤in sub trait_mod:is (/tmp/9otMf9SIEy:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/9otMf9SIEy:2)␤»
22:48 jnthn Guess we could always stick something like that in traits.pm
22:49 masak jnthn: I think that would be an improvement.
22:49 al23 Hi! Can't build pugs. What's wrong here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/84353
22:49 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class $a, *%f) { die "No matching trait { %f.keys[0] } to compose into $a; did you forget to forward-delcare a class?" }; class A is B { }; class B { };
22:49 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«No matching trait B to compose into ClassHOW()<0xb66c0aa0>; did you forget to forward-delcare a class?␤in sub trait_mod:is (/tmp/2vHgf0zryA:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/2vHgf0zryA:2)␤»
22:49 jnthn oh lol
22:50 masak al23: cannot configure time-1.1.4
22:50 jnthn rakudo: multi trait_mod:<is>(Class $a, *%f) { die "No matching trait { %f.keys[0] } to compose into { $a.name }; did you forget to forward-delcare a class?" }; class A is B { }; class B { };
22:50 masak al23: that's what's wrong.
22:50 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'ClassHOW'␤»
22:50 jnthn heh
22:50 jnthn well
22:50 jnthn Close anyway.
22:50 jnthn masak: We can give it a try.
22:51 * jnthn afk for a little bit
22:51 al23 masak: so?
22:51 masak al23: good question. I haven't tried building pugs in months.
22:52 masak al23: it's kind of a dormant project.
22:52 al23 Me too.
22:52 hercynium joined #perl6
22:52 masak al23: you do know of Rakudo and all? just checking.
22:52 al23 I thought Pugs still the most comprehensive...
22:53 al23 Isn't it?
22:53 masak al23: certainly not the most up-to-date.
22:53 masak al23: I find it hard to compare comprehensiveness.
22:53 masak if it's features you want, Rakudo won't disappoint you, though.
22:54 al23 By the amout of implemented stuff?
22:54 masak al23: funny guy. :)
22:54 cj joined #perl6
22:54 al23 Anyway, I'm just want to play with Perl 6.
22:54 jnthn al23: They both implement different subsets of Perl 6, though increasingly Rakudo covers all that Pugs does. Plus Rakudo does a bunch of stuff that Pugs doesn't. Plus it is much more in line with the current spec.
22:54 masak al23: then I suggest you try Rakudo.
22:55 jnthn Rakudo misses, for example, laziness.
22:55 masak we're putting off implementing it. :P
22:59 lumi_ joined #perl6
23:04 al23 Hm. I think I've used only pugs... I thought it is really cool since it was written (a) in Haskell and (b) by Audrey Tang :-)
23:05 masak al23: nod.
23:05 masak I thought that was really cool too.
23:07 al23 Is it completely stuck? I think Audrey wrote that she plans to resume work.
23:10 synth joined #perl6
23:12 masak al23: it's been basically motionless for two years.
23:16 synth joined #perl6
23:16 masak I'm getting close to catching the bug now.
23:16 Whiteknight joined #perl6
23:22 justatheory joined #perl6
23:23 japhb TimToady: could you explain your email statement "I wish we had a way of trapping and testing warnings too so we could see that 3 elements were discarded by the inner list assignment."  To whom is this directed?
23:24 masak ok, here it is:
23:24 masak rakudo: role A { has @!foo; method bar() { @!foo ~~ (1,2); } }; class B does A { has $.baz; }; B.new().bar()
23:24 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in method A[]::bar (/tmp/XG0DKmk8uZ:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/XG0DKmk8uZ:2)␤»
23:24 * masak submits rakudobug
23:27 masak rakudo: role A { has @!foo; method bar() { say @!foo } }; class B does A { has $.baz; }; B.new().bar()
23:27 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in method A[]::bar (/tmp/CfCtQ08n7K:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/CfCtQ08n7K:2)␤»
23:27 TimToady japhb: it's directed at whoever wants to think about how you'd test for proper emission of warnings
23:29 TimToady which is, presumably, related to the question of how you test for proper production of any exception
23:29 japhb TimToady: Ah.  I was wondering if it was a note to yourself, or a gentle reminder to read already-specced behavior, or ....
23:30 TimToady it's just a To Whom It May Concern
23:30 japhb gotcha.
23:31 al23 \o/ GHC 6.10.x builds Pugs.
23:32 jnthn masak: Hmm.
23:32 jnthn Interesting bug...
23:32 masak jnthn: packaged and filed, just for you sir.
23:32 masak fix it, and Druid will run again. :)
23:32 jnthn masak: Is that minimal?
23:33 masak jnthn: very.
23:33 masak see the bug ticket.
23:33 masak RT 67992.
23:33 jnthn rakudo: role A { has @!foo; method bar() { say @!foo } }; class  B does A { }; B.new().bar()
23:33 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«␤»
23:33 jnthn huh? Having another attr in the class is what breaks it?
23:33 jnthn :-/
23:33 masak yes.
23:33 masak that actually seems to be the problem.
23:34 masak rakudo: class A { has @!foo; method bar() { say @!foo } }; class B is A { has $.baz; }; B.new().bar()
23:34 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«␤»
23:34 masak seems to be specific to role composition.
23:34 jnthn Do you know how recently it broke?
23:34 masak jnthn: unfortunately not.
23:34 jnthn I'm pondering it may be to do with that attribute ordering bug.
23:35 jnthn That is, role attr composition doesn't contribute to that list.
23:35 jnthn And then initialization leaves the attr null.
23:35 jnthn That'd nicely explain it.
23:35 masak aye.
23:36 jnthn Yes, looks very much like that.
23:36 jnthn Will patch it tomorrow.
23:37 masak \o/
23:37 masak my work here is done.
23:37 masak see you tomorrow for another glorious day.
23:39 jnthn Optimism. He's doing it right.
23:40 al23 Should <<op<< or >>op>> work, besides >>op<<?
23:40 TimToady that one works better in rakudo than in pugs
23:40 nihiliad joined #perl6
23:40 al23 :-)
23:41 TimToady spec rot
23:41 al23 I see.
23:41 TimToady though I think pugs's >>op<< is really the currently specced <<op>>
23:41 TimToady as in it dwims
23:42 TimToady pugs: say (1,2,3)>>+<<1
23:42 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«234␤»
23:42 TimToady yes
23:42 al23 So, what's "hyper op xs ys = map (\ (x,y) -> x `op` y) $ zip xs ys" in Perl 6?
23:42 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,3)>>+<<1
23:42 TimToady should fail
23:42 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«Non-dwimmy hyperoperator cannot be used on arrays of different sizes or dimensions.␤in Main (/tmp/wOVfrynyA3:2)␤»
23:42 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,3)<<+>>1
23:42 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "1"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3359)␤»
23:42 TimToady rakudo: say (1,2,3) <<+>> 1
23:43 p6eval rakudo 6999e5: OUTPUT«234␤»
23:43 jnthn std: say (1,2,3)<<+>>1
23:43 p6eval std 27786: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/fcG3J9PzNo line 1:␤------> [32msay (1,2,3)<<+>>[33m⏏[31m1[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  POST␤   bracketed infix␤    infix stopper␤    postfix␤        postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤
23:43 p6eval ..statement modifier loop␤    term…
23:43 TimToady that's a subscript
23:43 TimToady needs ws
23:43 jnthn Aha
23:43 jnthn Phew, Rakudo was right. :-)
23:43 TimToady earlier you were using Class as if it were a real one
23:44 al23 Where is the actual spec?
23:44 TimToady despite S02 saying there's a Class class, I don't believe it
23:44 Khisanth_ joined #perl6
23:44 jnthn TimToady: There is no Class class.
23:44 TimToady S02 is actually talking about varieties of packages
23:44 jnthn TimToady: Class is, in liu of you spec'ing what we should have, the "some HOW here" marker.
23:45 TimToady so I think those are really roles for mixing into Package
23:45 jnthn TimToady: Right now it looks like this:
23:45 jnthn subset Class of Object where ClassHOW | RoleHOW;
23:45 TimToady subset Class of Object where { not .defined }
23:45 jnthn No, that's not right.
23:46 jnthn The trait_mod:<is> wants to take a metaclass.
23:46 jnthn Which could well be defined.
23:46 jnthn It's not the proto-object.
23:46 TimToady no, it wants the object being declared
23:46 TimToady it must have the object being declared, or it can't modify it
23:46 jnthn Hang on, which are we talking about?
23:46 jnthn class Foo is Bar { }
23:47 jnthn dispatches with two parameters: the metaclass of Foo, and then also Bar, which would be the proto-object.
23:47 TimToady somewhere there is a type object named "Foo" that is separate from the metaclass
23:47 jnthn It doesn't exist at that point.
23:47 jnthn We're still in the process of declaring the class.
23:47 TimToady it's being created
23:48 jferrero joined #perl6
23:48 jnthn Yes, in the process of creating it.
23:48 TimToady in STD it already exists, and is called the "declarand"
23:48 jnthn Last time we discussed this, you said you'd expect the trait_mod there to receive the metaclass.
23:48 TimToady I don't recall that
23:48 jnthn Well it's not likely I invented it, given it's made me do a refactor.
23:49 jnthn It kinda makes sense you'd want to meta-class in there though.
23:49 jnthn That's the thing you want to ask to add a parent, for example.
23:49 TimToady you can always the the metaclass from the object's .HOW
23:50 TimToady you know the .HOW based on the keyword "class", "role", etc.
23:50 TimToady the name has to be introduced as a valid type name as soon as you see it
23:51 TimToady even before processing the traits
23:51 jnthn The parser knows it's a valid type name.
23:51 jnthn But that's an unrelated issue to having to actually create the proto-object at that point.
23:51 TimToady the parser knows that because the type object is added to the symbol table right then, in STD
23:52 TimToady the symbol table entry *is* the protoobject in sTD
23:52 jnthn Sure, it is in Rakudo *after* the class has been defined.
23:53 jnthn (We create the proto-object after the class has been composed.)
23:54 TimToady what does the symbol table contain, if not the protoobject?
23:55 jnthn The actual namespace entry doesn't get created at that point, it's the parser's symbol table that knows about it, and all it needs to know is "there's something under this name".
23:56 TimToady the parser's namespace *is* the symbol table, for STD
23:57 jnthn OK, but that doesn't really fly for Rakudo.
23:57 jnthn Well
23:57 jnthn I guess it could somehow be made to...
23:59 jnthn TimToady: I knew I wasn't making crap up.
23:59 jnthn http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-05-14#i_1143515

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