Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-08-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:26 masak Matt-W: (re towers of hanoi) sacrilege! how dare you speak bad of our only opportunity in CS courses to play with differently-sized rings on sticks?
00:26 cognominal masak, do you know weblift?  I like their use of pattern matching for routing.
00:27 masak cognominal: it sounds familiar, but I don't know what it is.
00:27 masak cognominal: do you have an URL?
00:27 masak cognominal: also, consider joining #november-wiki, where most of the Web.pm discussion takes place.
00:27 justatheory joined #perl6
00:27 cognominal I meant lifteb : http://liftweb.net/
00:27 masak ah.
00:28 cognominal I don't see anything like pattern mathing in Perl 6.
00:28 masak sure there is.
00:28 masak I added it. :)
00:28 cognominal smart match seems a hack compared to pattern matching. or I am misunderstanding
00:29 cognominal masak, I am just discovering routing in Web.pm. so my questions
00:29 masak std: multi fib(0) { 0 }; multi fib(1) { 1 }; multi fib(Int $n) { fib($n-1) + fib($n-2) }
00:29 p6eval std 27864:  ( no output )
00:29 masak bah, STD.pm is being a coward today.
00:29 cognominal so multimethod is pattern matching
00:29 masak cognominal: ok. well, thanks for the liftweb reference. I'll digest it.
00:29 masak cognominal: aye.
00:30 cognominal there is a pdf that explains it in detail
00:32 cognominal http://groups.google.com/group/the-lift-book
00:32 masak nice.
00:32 masak it's written in Scala, I see.
00:33 masak Scala seems nice.
00:33 cognominal a little verbose...
00:34 cognominal I have trouble with lift because I don't know anything related to java, but it seems a great framework so it may interest you
00:34 masak it does. thank you.
00:34 cognominal they break the url into a list and do pattern matching on it to do routing
00:34 masak we've been having such thoughts for Perl 6.
00:35 masak ruoso, among other people, has talked about it.
00:35 masak hm. it's late here. I'll likely go to sleep now.
00:35 cognominal I have learnt haskell and scala to learn about types
00:36 cognominal masak, good night
00:36 masak cognominal: 'night
00:36 missingthepoint night masak :)
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00:45 cognominal masak :  somei interesting ressources about lifweb :  http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/ar​chives/16-Web-Framework-Manifesto.html  (a manifesto by the future author of liftweb)  http://wiki.liftweb.net/index.php/Lift_View_First (what makes it different from rail),  http://blog.getintheloop.eu/ (a blog with lifweb entries),
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01:16 wayland76 lambdabot: @seen mas
01:16 lambdabot I haven't seen mas.
01:16 wayland76 lambdabot: @seen masak
01:16 lambdabot I saw masak leaving #perl6 39m 34s ago, and .
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01:20 Juerd There are some really scary things in http://blog.lostlake.org/index.php?/ar​chives/16-Web-Framework-Manifesto.html
01:20 Juerd Also some very good points.
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01:20 Juerd This makes it a hard read. For every bullet point I search myself for an opinion. I can't just go "probably a good idea, because the previous points were good too."
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01:23 Juerd It doesn't read like a manifesto. I'd expect broad and abstract statements...
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01:44 wayland76 I always try to think of an opinion :)
01:44 wayland76 missingthepoint: Australia?
01:46 missingthepoint wayland76: (backlogs quickly)
01:47 missingthepoint wayland76: yes, i live here :)
01:47 missingthepoint what else are you asking?
01:47 wayland76 missingthepoint: I'm near Geelong.  Whereabouts are you?
01:47 missingthepoint adelaide
01:47 wayland76 Sorry, the "opinion" comment was directed at Juerd
01:48 missingthepoint ah, ok :)
01:48 wayland76 Hmm.  So I'm near Melbourne, bacek is in Sydney, and you're in Adelaide :)
01:48 missingthepoint yep... i think skud is in melbourne too
01:48 missingthepoint and pjf
01:49 wayland76 It clicked with me because I'm on Internode
01:49 wayland76 I've met pjf
01:49 wayland76 But I don't see those people in P6 circles :)
01:58 tann rakudo: sub f($n where $ > 0) { say "ok" }; f(0);
01:58 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "where $ > "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3363)␤»
02:00 wayland76 tann: Where are you getting that syntax from?
02:01 tann my imaginary mind :)
02:01 tann vaguely remember p6 has where clause for params
02:01 wayland76 rakudo: sub f($n where $_ > 0) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:01 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "> 0) { say"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3363)␤»
02:01 wayland76 std: sub f($n where $_ > 0) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:02 p6eval std 27864: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse signature; couldn't find final ')' at /tmp/4mL6x4WyTF line 1:␤------> [32msub f($n where $_ [33m⏏[31m> 0) { say "ok" }; f(0);[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     bracketed infix␤  constraint␤       infix or meta-infix (with precedence
02:02 p6eval ..tighter than …
02:02 tann i think s06 used to have it or something
02:02 wayland76 std: sub f(Int $n where { $_ > 0 }) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:02 p6eval std 27864:  ( no output )
02:02 tann oh
02:02 wayland76 There's something like it in S12
02:02 wayland76 std: sub f(Int $n where { $_ > 0 }) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:02 tann so there must be type
02:02 p6eval std 27864:  ( no output )
02:02 wayland76 Or curlies; not sure :)
02:02 wayland76 std: sub f($n where { $_ > 0 }) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:03 p6eval std 27864:  ( no output )
02:03 tann ah
02:03 tann there it is
02:03 wayland76 Curlies are the key
02:03 wayland76 rakudo: sub f($n where { $_ > 0 }) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:03 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected [Any, { ... }], but got Int for $n in call to f␤in sub f (/tmp/A8nNMPgtqk:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/A8nNMPgtqk:2)␤»
02:03 wayland76 rakudo: sub f($n where { $_ > 0 }) { say "ok" }; f(1);
02:03 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«ok␤»
02:03 wayland76 Ok, it works :)
02:04 wayland76 Although the error message could be a little more informative :)
02:05 tann that's nice
02:05 tann just masak mentioned about tower of hanoi earlier
02:05 tann so thought i would play with the where clause in params
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02:07 tann rakudo:  sub hanoi($n where { $n > 0 }, $to, $from, $user) { hanoi($n - 1, $using, $from, $to); say "move $from -> $to"; hanoi($n - 1, $to, $using, $from); }; hanoi(4, 3, 1, 2);
02:07 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Symbol '$using' not predeclared in hanoi (/tmp/axXaT0y97V:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3363)␤»
02:08 tann rakudo:  sub hanoi($n where { $n > 0 }, $to, $from, $using) { hanoi($n - 1, $using, $from, $to); say "move $from -> $to"; hanoi($n - 1, $to, $using, $from); }; hanoi(4, 3, 1, 2);
02:08 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected [Any, { ... }], but got Int for $n in call to hanoi␤in sub hanoi (/tmp/XFLLBYlRus:2)␤called from sub hanoi (/tmp/XFLLBYlRus:2)␤called from sub hanoi (/tmp/XFLLBYlRus:2)␤called from sub hanoi (/tmp/XFLLBYlRus:2)␤called from sub hanoi
02:08 p6eval ..(/tmp/XFLLB…
02:09 tann hmm..
02:12 tann rakudo:  sub hanoi($n where { $_ > 0 }, $to, $from, $using) { hanoi($n - 1, $using, $from, $to); say "move $from -> $to"; hanoi($n - 1, $to, $using, $from); }; hanoi(4, 3, 1, 2);
02:12 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected [Any, { ... }], but got Int for $n in call to hanoi␤in sub hanoi (/tmp/rFrZcNeSau:2)␤called from sub hanoi (/tmp/rFrZcNeSau:2)␤called from sub hanoi (/tmp/rFrZcNeSau:2)␤called from sub hanoi (/tmp/rFrZcNeSau:2)␤called from sub hanoi
02:12 p6eval ..(/tmp/rFrZc…
02:13 tann rakudo: sub f($n where { $_ > 0 }, $x) { say "ok" }; f(1);
02:13 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 2 params expected␤in sub f (/tmp/o3GzuCDT3c:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/o3GzuCDT3c:2)␤»
02:19 tann rakudo: multi sub f { }; multi sub f($n where { $_ > 0 }) { say "ok" }; f(0);
02:19 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'f'␤in Main (/tmp/JKtxq3do57:2)␤»
02:19 tann ^^^ segfault on my osx :)
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03:05 wayland76 Hmm.  Submitted a rakudobug?
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03:19 azawawi std: 'hi';
03:19 p6eval std 27864: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 36m␤»
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03:34 eternaleye cognominal: If you're looking for pattern-based web routing, check out masak++ 's doc on Astaire: http://feather.perl6.nl/~m​asak/web-spec/Astaire.html
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03:51 pugs_svn r27865 | azawawi++ | [STD] Removed unused YAML::XS dependency
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03:56 wayland76 Does anyone know if closures in rules (regexes) are working yet?
04:07 cognominal apparently not.
04:09 cognominal The work around I use is to break a rule on two and used an action objet that contains methods
04:10 cognominal see http://www.google.com/search?client=safar​i&rls=fr-fr&q=perl6+%22pass+an+ac​tion+object%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 for action objects
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04:16 azawawi std: sub sub($foo) { }; sub(1);
04:16 p6eval std 27865: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Missing block at /tmp/re9yxCX0l1 line 1:␤------> [32msub sub($foo) { }; sub(1)[33m⏏[31m;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  block␤  routine_def␤        terminator␤     trait␤    whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 39m␤»
04:17 azawawi std: sub if($foo) { }; if(1);
04:17 p6eval std 27865: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
04:18 azawawi TimToady: 'sub sub($foo) { }; sub(1);' fails to parse.
04:18 azawawi rakudo: sub sub($foo) { }; sub(1);
04:18 p6eval rakudo 18598d:  ( no output )
04:19 azawawi rakudo: sub sub($foo) { say 'Hello from $foo"; }; sub(1);
04:19 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " 'Hello fr"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2467)␤»
04:19 azawawi rakudo: sub sub($foo) { say "Hello from $foo"; }; sub(1);
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04:19 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«Hello from 1␤»
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04:43 pugs_svn r27866 | wayland++ | [S32/IO] Stopped referring to IO::Endable, as its functionality seems to be currently
04:43 pugs_svn r27866 | wayland++ | subsumed into IO::Seekable.  If I've done it wrong, feel free to change it.
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05:31 ex_spam_convict Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Time Capsule  Reply with quote
05:31 ex_spam_convict Shame on you Apple for again screwing your customers over. First you say you can plug in an external HD to the Airport Extreme and use it with Time Machine, and then you remove that feature before Leopard's launch. Only to release "Time Capsule" a few months later. Are you trying to milk money out of your customers or something?
05:33 wayland76 ex_spam_convict: What has that got to do with Perl 6?
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05:40 tann wayland76: it has everything to do with perl 6...looking at his nick :D
05:41 wayland76 What, you mean that spamming programs will be even easier to write in P6?
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06:08 cognominal STD:   sub swap (*@_ is rw, *%_ is rw) { @_[0,1] = @_[1,0]; %_<status> = "Q:S"; }; say eval( &swap.signature.perl).perl
06:09 cognominal std:   sub swap (*@_ is rw, *%_ is rw) { @_[0,1] = @_[1,0]; %_<status> = "Q:S"; }; say eval( &swap.signature.perl).perl
06:09 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:05 58m␤»
06:09 cognominal WTF?
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06:16 wayland76 What sort of error were you expecting?
06:19 cognominal here, I got :
06:19 cognominal sub swap (*@_ is rw, *%_ is rw) { }; my $s=&swap.signature.perl; say $s; say eval( $s ).perl
06:19 cognominal :(Object *@_, Object *%_)
06:19 cognominal {}
06:20 moritz_ rakudo: sub swap (*@_ is rw, *%_ is rw) { }; my  $s=&swap.signature.perl; say $s; say eval( $s ).perl
06:20 cognominal the "is rw" are lost.
06:20 p6eval rakudo 18598d: OUTPUT«:(Object *@_, Object *%_)␤{}␤»
06:21 cognominal and the second line should be identical to the first.
06:21 moritz_ cognominal: feel free to submit a bug report
06:21 cognominal ho, I called the wrong interpreter
06:22 cognominal I suppose that jnthn knows all that already
06:22 cognominal probably the "is rw" is not handled today.
06:22 moritz_ still it would be good to have it in rt
06:23 cognominal better write a test if it is not already done.
06:24 moritz_ sure, that's also welcome
06:35 wayland76 Looks like frederico is at YAPC::EU :)
06:36 frederico wayland76: yes :)
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06:57 Su-Shee good morning future. :)
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07:06 wayland76 o/ Su-Shee
07:08 dalek rakudo: 24b26a0 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
07:08 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 426 files, 12179 passing, 8 failing
07:08 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
07:08 dalek rakudo:     S12-enums/basic.rakudo aborted 2 test(s)
07:08 dalek rakudo:     S12-introspection/walk.t aborted 6 test(s)
07:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​4b26a0e5319646877f9cdfa5976062e1a02b95a
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07:14 Matt-W Morning
07:18 eternaleye The nice thing about global projects is that no matter how late you stay up in your timezone, there are people who are just showing up. And thw whole thing of there always being people making improvements ;D
07:20 * Su-Shee just had her morning dose of perl blogs and read chromatic's entry about PMC and now my head hurts. ;)
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07:33 Matt-W Su-Shee: This happens to me a lot
07:36 Su-Shee a daily dose of feeling stupid is the first step on the path to enlightenment. ;)
07:41 sdgvf what, exactly, is a 'null PMC access'
07:42 moritz_ sdgvf: it's an internal error in parrot or rakudo
07:43 moritz_ it means that a program tried to access a data structured called "PolyMorphic Container" (or "Parrot Magical Cookie"), but found a Null pointer instead
07:45 Su-Shee moritz_: I've always wanted to ask - are you doing your diplom about p6?
07:53 Matt-W sdgvf: it's like the Parrot VM's version of a segmentation fault
07:54 moritz_ Su-Shee: no :(
07:54 Matt-W That would be very cool
07:54 moritz_ aye
07:54 Matt-W I should've done that
07:55 Matt-W But then my attempt at a PhD was full of mistakes
07:55 Matt-W Considering going Open University... but doing creative writing and literature, this time. I'm done with computer science qualifications
07:56 Su-Shee a friend of mine just got her degree in linguistics and creative writing from the OU.
07:56 Matt-W One of my superiors at work is doing a BSc in Psychology with them
07:57 Matt-W and one of my colleagues is doing an MSc in Mathematics
07:57 Matt-W although I think he might be with a more conventional university, come to think of it
07:58 Su-Shee well one degree is good enough for me. :)
07:58 sdgvf http://gist.github.com/159435 <- the grammar (and test data) that causes said implosion
07:59 Su-Shee Matt-W: sadly, some subjects aren't really suitable for remote studying. how to learn bio-tech without a lab?
07:59 Matt-W Su-Shee: yeah I'm only looking at a diploma for this, there's no way to get an entire degree without doing far more literature courses than I want to do
08:00 Matt-W Su-Shee: in fact, it appears to be possible to get the diploma in literature and creative writing by doing only creative writing modules, which is exactly what I want to do
08:00 Su-Shee my friend was very satisfied with the lectures/lessons in CW.
08:00 Matt-W excellent
08:01 Matt-W as it stands, it looks like it would take me three years, because of when the courses start...
08:01 Su-Shee and she's already got a broad background of humanities/writing/lit'n'stuff.
08:01 Matt-W but hey, no rush
08:01 moritz_ sdgvf: it works here, at least I get a match tree and no Null PMC access
08:01 Su-Shee well writing is something to learn within a few weeks :)
08:01 moritz_ sdgvf: what version of rakudo are you using?
08:02 Su-Shee "isn't"
08:03 moritz_ "isn't" makes more sense :-)
08:04 sdgvf I was running the latest from github a few days ago, I did a git pull && Configure --gen-parrot && make about a half an hour ago
08:05 moritz_ hm
08:05 Matt-W Su-Shee: 'isn't' makes a lot more sense, I've been trying to learn how to do it for 15 years, so I think it's about time I had some help
08:06 moritz_ sdgvf: that's wierd, such errors are usually rather platform independent - but maybe you found an exception :/
08:06 moritz_ sdgvf: when you run 'make spectest', is that mostly clean?
08:07 moritz_ (as in, 4 failures or so are expected at the moment)
08:07 Su-Shee Matt-W: it starts with reading a lot.
08:10 moritz_ and it goes on with praticing, and structured learning
08:10 moritz_ like any skill you want to acquire efficiently
08:10 moritz_ (though many skip the "structured" part, and try it the hard way)
08:10 Su-Shee moritz_: the skills for creative writing aren't that easy to aquire in a "structured" way. the crafts & trades of writing are.
08:11 moritz_ Su-Shee: still there are courses, and books, and whatnot
08:11 moritz_ Su-Shee: just like for learning programming, and learning good programming
08:11 moritz_ but somehow many people think that either they are creative, or not
08:11 moritz_ or that creativity can't be learned
08:11 Su-Shee moritz_: well it plainly starts with "reading good stuff". the corpus of literature of your native tongue, the main philosphers and the best of journalism.
08:12 Su-Shee which are "the books" :)
08:12 moritz_ I never disputed that :-)
08:12 Su-Shee me neither, I'm not argueing. :)
08:14 Su-Shee the nice thing about lit skills is: you can aquire them sitting in a cafe or on the couch or while lying in bed :)
08:15 moritz_ right, I enjoy that regularly :-)
08:18 Su-Shee I'd love to write code as fluently as I write text.
08:18 moritz_ it's the other way round for me, sometimes :-)
08:18 Matt-W I think it helps to just have a structure in that the course says 'write this'
08:18 Matt-W and you have to try
08:18 Matt-W it makes you do different things
08:19 Matt-W it's like how I never really programmed properly until I went to university and they made me write things I would never have tried because I didn't think I knew how
08:19 moritz_ Su-Shee: one thing I like about programming is that it's so easy to get feedback on what you write
08:19 Matt-W but when you have to do it, you just figure out how and get on with it
08:19 moritz_ the compiler/interpreter and test suite tell you if something's right or wrong
08:19 moritz_ and you can easily see if code is beautiful
08:19 moritz_ it's not that easy with literature
08:19 Matt-W to a certain extent
08:20 Matt-W sometimes code can look fine, but hide something horrible underneath
08:20 Matt-W especially when you start throwing threads into the mix
08:20 moritz_ I haven't done much concurrent programming yet
08:20 Matt-W threaded code typically looks awful
08:20 moritz_ but I guess that's true
08:20 Su-Shee moritz_: that is as easy with text as with code. there are universal rules of "what is good writing"
08:21 Su-Shee which you learn to recognize first and later you learn to apply it.
08:21 moritz_ Su-Shee: then I should narrow my statement to "it's not easy for /me/"
08:21 Su-Shee moritz_: that's actually a skill not that difficult to aquire up to a certain level.
08:21 moritz_ but there you go - if I had some structured eduction regarding literature, I'd know about those rules
08:22 Su-Shee you would.
08:22 moritz_ why don't they teach such things in school? I mean I had way too many useless German classes
08:22 Su-Shee Matt-W: yes, plainly "having to write this now" helps a lot.
08:23 Su-Shee moritz_: I have really _no_ idea.
08:23 Su-Shee moritz_: it isn't even part of university education in humanities unless you go ahead and learn it by yourself.
08:24 moritz_ Su-Shee: any good resources where I could learn it from?
08:26 Su-Shee moritz_: for german it's the books of wolf schneider, the duden "gutes und richtiges deutsch" is a must-have. also helpful: journalism of the weimarer republic - sternstunden des deutschen. in english you start with "elements of style" (strunk/white, it's online).
08:26 moritz_ Su-Shee: thanks
08:27 * moritz_ bookmarks http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-08-04#i_1364628
08:28 sdgvf three centuries later, there are a grand total of five test errors
08:28 Su-Shee moritz_: and as a shortcut, read this http://chaosradio.ccc.de/media/ds/ds081.pdf ;)
08:30 moritz_ sdgvf: then your local copy is not hosed, and I have no idea what's wrong
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09:18 * ancients is away (4[O.F.F.L.I.N.E])
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09:41 ruoso cognominal, Faz is an attempt to implement just that in Perl 6, heavily influenced by Catalyst... http://github.com/ruoso/faz/tree -- take a look in the example code
09:41 * ruoso commute &
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10:34 JimmyZ rakudo: HOW(x).methods.perl.say
10:34 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub x␤»
10:34 JimmyZ rakudo: HOW(1).methods.perl.say
10:34 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
10:34 JimmyZ rakudo: HOW(Str).methods.perl.say
10:34 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
10:35 JimmyZ rakudo: HOW(Str).perl.say
10:35 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Str␤»
10:35 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.perl.say
10:35 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Str␤»
10:35 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.HOW.perl.say
10:35 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Str.new()␤»
10:36 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.HOW.methods.perl.say
10:36 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 3 params expected␤in Main (/tmp/6qA1gaFtVi:2)␤»
10:36 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.HOW.methods('').perl.say
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10:36 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«[{ ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ...
10:36 p6eval ..}, { …
10:39 JimmyZ perl6 needs to more test cases...
10:40 Matt-W always
10:40 Matt-W feel free to write some
10:44 wayland76 lambdabot: @seen masak jnthn
10:44 lambdabot I saw masak leaving #perl6 10h 7m 39s ago, and .
10:44 wayland76 lambdabot: @seen jnthn
10:44 lambdabot jnthn is in #perl6. I last heard jnthn speak 1d 23h 2m 3s ago.
10:47 Matt-W wayland76: they'll be busy with YAPC::EU at the moment I expect
10:48 missingthepoint is that just the Str.HOW methods deparsing - no serialization yet, so it uses yada to fill in?
10:48 Matt-W missingthepoint: it can't render out code blocks, so it just says yada, yes
10:48 missingthepoint ah, thanks Matt-W
10:48 Matt-W rakudo: sub a { say "a" }; say &a.perl;
10:48 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
10:49 Matt-W not sure if it's ever supposed to be able to do it
10:49 Matt-W it's not exactly an easy thing...
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10:49 Matt-W at least, not without keeping a string copy of the code that went into a routine around in memory with it, which seems a bit pointless
10:51 missingthepoint But isn't that the only way to get proper deserialization?
10:51 JimmyZ How did http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html embed the spectests?
10:52 missingthepoint JimmyZ: see util/smartlinks.pl in pugs repo
10:54 JimmyZ I can't understand it. :(
10:55 wayland76 Matt-W: Yeah, I figured, but I thought I'd check anyway
10:55 wayland76 They were online in the middle of Nordic Perl Workshop after all :)
10:56 JimmyZ missingthepoint: Is it smartlinks.pl's job?
10:57 missingthepoint JimmyZ: smartlinks.pl uses Text::SmartLinks, which is in util/ as well...
10:57 missingthepoint (more)
10:58 JimmyZ thanks
10:58 missingthepoint if you look in util/Text-Smartlinks/lib/Text/Smartlinks.pm it has a big explanation of how it works :)
11:01 JimmyZ missingthepoint: I don't love it, It has no benefit for printing it to papers.
11:01 JimmyZ ;)
11:03 missingthepoint JimmyZ: do you want to print out the embedded tests with the spec?
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11:10 wayland76 Ooh, network split
11:10 wayland76 Network split/merge :)
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11:15 JimmyZ rakudo: 'x'.HOW.methods.perl.say;
11:15 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (1) - 3 params expected␤in Main (/tmp/3i64vodxcG:2)␤»
11:15 JimmyZ rakudo: 'x'.HOW.methods('').perl.say;
11:15 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«[{ ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ...
11:15 p6eval ..}, { …
11:15 JimmyZ rakudo: 'x'.HOW.methods('').say;
11:15 p6eval rakudo 24b26a:
11:15 p6eval ..OUTPUT«WHICHACCEPTSperlsprintfScalarpredencodes​uccwordsvaluescanlcfirstsrandComplexmappolarciskv​samecaselogmincapitalizemaxfirsttransflipIntdoesp​5choplcsubstelemsabsendchompreduceindexceilingp5c​homp:dpairs:e:fcombunpolarordchopintcharsrootsuck​eysreverseisaucfirstsubstrfmtbytespickevalfile…
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11:16 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.HOW.methods('').say;
11:16 p6eval rakudo 24b26a:
11:16 p6eval ..OUTPUT«WHICHperlACCEPTSsprintfScalarpredencodes​uccmincapitalizemaxfirsttransflipIntdoesp5choplcs​ubstelemsabschompendreduceindexceilingp5chomp:dpa​irs:e:fcombunpolarordchopintcharsrootsucreverseke​ysisaucfirstsubstrfmtbytespickevalfilejointrimchr​floorrandtruncatesortroundsqrtrindexsplitmatch…
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11:16 JimmyZ rakudo: HOW(Str).methods('').say;
11:16 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
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11:23 JimmyZ missingthepoint: Help, how do I write this tests?
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11:26 JimmyZ s/no/not
11:27 missingthepoint JimmyZ: to judge whether the result is right, you need to read the right part of the spec (http://perlcabal.org/syn/)
11:27 missingthepoint in this case, here: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S12.html#Introspection
11:27 missingthepoint but sometimes things won't be completely specced (i.e. @Larry, the Perl 6 design team) needs to think through things more and actually WRITE the spec
11:28 missingthepoint so if things in the spec are unclear, ask here. asking when you find the spec unclear is helpful.
11:28 missingthepoint does that help?
11:30 JimmyZ missingthepoint++, that's very helpful.
11:34 JimmyZ missingthepoint: HOW function and method are referred to at S02 and S12, I don't know where there are to be added.
11:34 missingthepoint JimmyZ: I could be wrong, but I don't think "HOW(Str).methods" is meant to work.
11:35 JimmyZ missingthepoint: It's from S02.
11:35 missingthepoint ah, you are right :)
11:36 JimmyZ Every object supports a HOW function/method that returns the metaclass instance managing it, regardless of whether the object is defined:
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11:37 JimmyZ missingthepoint: And it lost tests.
11:37 JimmyZ rakudo: WHICH(Str).say;
11:37 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub WHICH␤»
11:37 JimmyZ rakudo: HOW(Str).say;
11:37 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
11:38 JimmyZ rakudo: WHO(Str).say;
11:38 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub WHO␤»
11:39 JimmyZ seems that there is only HOW supported by S02.
11:40 missingthepoint JimmyZ: i'd put tests in S12-introspection/meta-class.t
11:41 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.methods('').say;
11:41 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
11:41 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.methods().say;
11:41 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'methods' not found for invocant of class ''␤»
11:41 JimmyZ missingthepoint++
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11:58 Su-Shee *hihi* obviously, the whole bunch met in szagabs perl 6 workshop ;) http://szabgab.com/blog/2009/08/1249362072.html
12:01 moritz_ I'd also love it if somebody explained Perl 6 to me
12:02 Su-Shee moritz_: because this is really necessary and not the least bit redundant. :)
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12:04 moritz_ Su-Shee: even if I understand it some way already, it's always good to see another perspective on it
12:04 missingthepoint rakudo: BEGIN { if 1 { say 'begin at the beginning.' } }
12:04 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«begin at the beginning.␤»
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12:05 Su-Shee moritz_: well let's infiltrate germany, manipulate the press, take over the software industry and we'll have plenty of workshops attend to. ;)
12:06 moritz_ where do you beegin in Perl 6?
12:06 moritz_ Su-Shee: good idea :-)
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12:07 Matt-W Su-Shee: so, an afternoon's work then? :P
12:07 Su-Shee moritz_: well if it's for developers: make a little application containing at least a handful of features of perl 6 in a sensible way.
12:08 moritz_ Su-Shee: I should do that; I think my introductions normally are too bottom-up
12:08 wayland76 Well, there was this hoopy frood, see, named Perl.  She grew an extra head, and numbered her heads 5 and 6.  When she goes out, she puts a cage over head 6 and disguises it as a Parrot :)
12:08 Su-Shee Matt-W: well moritz wrote _the_ german perl 6 article series and I write for the same publisher for 10 years now, so the press manipulation thingie is actually for real (it press that is.. :)
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12:09 moritz_ but writing theses articles was not a matter of an afternoon :-)
12:09 Su-Shee moritz_: typical thing would be really something like "look, a blog based on Web.pm"
12:09 Su-Shee moritz_: the next will be. or the next after that.
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12:10 Su-Shee moritz_: I usally do something which at least does file i/o, contains some reg ex and manipulates some data in some data structures and has preferably some network connection.
12:10 moritz_ Su-Shee: if it were, I'd dump my current studies and become a writer :-)
12:10 Su-Shee moritz_: no you won't, because you can't pay your rent from writing. ;)
12:11 moritz_ Su-Shee: if I can write such an article series in one afternoon, I can :-)
12:11 Su-Shee moritz_: heise is the only one paying that well. and only in print.
12:11 Su-Shee moritz_: all others pay for 4 pages what heise does for one. ;)
12:12 moritz_ even if the others pay only 1/4, it's enough money for half a days work
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12:13 Su-Shee moritz_: writing is more of a karma payment in "recognition" currency. ;)
12:14 moritz_ :-)
12:14 Su-Shee back to perl 6 workshops and examples: please please please make examples real world programming examples. not some "funny" metaphor of animal classes or cartoon characters or something like that.
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12:16 moritz_ It would be cool if there was some kind of theme that most of the documentation adheres to
12:16 wayland76 rakudo: take "drugs"
12:16 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«take without gather␤»
12:16 moritz_ something like "writing a mail user agent"
12:16 wayland76 rakudo: gather { take "drugs" }
12:16 p6eval rakudo 24b26a:  ( no output )
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12:16 Su-Shee moritz_: yeah, I'd love that. and if you go for a new programming language, you'd have a nice comparison of the differences in styles and "how to actually do it"
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12:17 Su-Shee moritz_: I think mvc web frameworks are right now the common example. ;))
12:17 ruoso g'morning!
12:17 wayland76 ruoso: o/
12:18 * ruoso waits anxiously for being able to use custom grammars in rakudo, so Faz can have a syntax sugar...
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12:19 takadonet morning all
12:19 moritz_ Su-Shee: I think an MVC framework is too web centric, and we don't want the impression that perl 6 is "just a web language"
12:19 wayland76 takadonet: Good evening (I'm in Australia :) )
12:20 ruoso moritz_, MVC is not web-centric at all
12:20 ruoso moritz_, most mvc frameworks only work in the web... but frameworks like Catalyst can be used to a large variety of things
12:21 ruoso I, for instance, have used it to write a command-line application, a XMPP client and a Gtk app
12:22 Su-Shee moritz_: it's one example of many possible. mr shee for example doesn't care for web even though he's a heavy perl user - he uses still CGI.pm. BUT: he does Perl stuff like the filesystem written in perl by the Movable Type fellows and stuff like that. so, essentially you can take your pick as long as it's a usable project
12:23 Su-Shee moritz_: make it a spam filter with grammars. or "DNS server in perl in 20 lines" or something.
12:23 * wayland76 waits for grammars too :)
12:24 Matt-W grammars! grammars!
12:24 * Matt-W wants Damian to be able to do Perligata for Perl 6
12:24 wayland76 Both my grammas are dead :)
12:25 moritz_ ok... so how do write a source filter in Perl 6? *g*
12:25 * moritz_ runs
12:25 Su-Shee (is there something like a pun tip jar in english? ;)
12:26 Matt-W moritz_: you replace the grammar!
12:26 moritz_ are you referring to the "schlechte-wortspiel-kasse"? :-)
12:26 moritz_ (that was to Su-Shee)
12:26 Su-Shee kalauer kasse :)
12:26 moritz_ :)
12:26 moritz_ Matt-W: can I do that with s///?
12:27 wayland76 I always ignore pun tip jars
12:27 Su-Shee wayland76: well, for the grammas: PAY UP :)
12:27 Matt-W moritz_: yes, you s/.*/$newgrammar/
12:27 Matt-W and then run make
12:27 moritz_ that makes me run
12:27 moritz_ or so
12:27 Matt-W :P
12:27 Matt-W well you did ask if you could do it with s///
12:28 moritz_ :)
12:28 * Su-Shee infiltrates perl 6 into germans 2nd largest isp.
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12:30 moritz_ I guess t-online is the largest?
12:32 Su-Shee it's a little difficult to count - t-online has the largest dialip customer base ( I think ), but not the largest number of domains or web hosting foobars or dedicated servers or something like that.
12:32 Su-Shee dialup.
12:33 moritz_ why can't anything be easy? :)
12:34 Matt-W because then the world would be boring
12:34 wayland76 And people wouldn
12:34 wayland76 't pay us to do things
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12:36 Su-Shee yesterday I was thinking that one should start with hooking the image magick folks on perl 6.
12:50 moritz_ it might make sense to wait a bit until the parrot NCI is better documented
12:50 wayland76 Or ncigen is completed
12:50 moritz_ "completed" - there is that nasty word again :)
12:50 wayland76 Well, maybe mo' bettah instead
12:51 Su-Shee my thinking was more along the lines of realizing how many projects have to be convinced over the next 2 years to port their stuff to p6.
12:51 missingthepoint (sorry to butt in: is there a version of Test.pm that has three-arg is()?)
12:51 moritz_ rakudo: use Test; plan 1; is 1, 1, "yes, Sir";
12:51 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«1..1␤ok 1 - yes, Sir␤»
12:51 missingthepoint moritz_: sorry, it's been a long day :)
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12:51 moritz_ missingthepoint: did you mean those three args?
12:51 missingthepoint yep
12:51 moritz_ good.
12:51 moritz_ I thought maybe you meant cmp_ok instead (implemented in pugs' Test.pm at least) which takes three args for comparison, and an optional description
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12:51 moritz_ pugs: use Test; plan 1; cmp_ok 1, &infix:<==>, 1, 'descr';
12:51 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«pugs: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/IJbC6FJyAK line 1, column 1␤»
12:51 missingthepoint nope, just blind :)
12:51 missingthepoint but that cmp_ok() looks very cool.
12:51 moritz_ as if 'use' was a function... :-)
12:51 moritz_ it looks even cooler when you know that you can write &infix:<==> as &[==] today
12:51 moritz_ (though NYI in rakudo)
12:51 * missingthepoint is impressed
12:51 wayland76 Question -- is there something to do require_ok in p6?
12:51 missingthepoint Su-Shee: sorry to disrupt your conversation! :|
12:51 moritz_ sub require_ok($module, $descr?) { lives_ok { require $module }, $descr};
12:51 moritz_ missingthepoint: Perl 6 is never off topic here, so no need to apologize
12:51 moritz_ also we're usually multi-threaded in here :-)
12:51 wayland76 Su-Shee: Maybe we have to convice lots, but when I passed through gtk-perl about 6 months ago, they sounded convinced, but waiting for things to be ready :)
12:51 Su-Shee wayland76: maybe you should show up again. :)
12:51 wayland76 Now I'm wondering if an IRC client could be designed that would help keep track of separate threads in a channel :)
12:52 wayland76 Su-Shee: As soon as things are ready :)
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12:52 moritz_ wayland76: I've thought about that a bit, too
12:52 moritz_ wayland76: but I didn't come to a positive conclusion
12:53 wayland76 I think it'd be possible if people were willing to agree on a standard for threading
12:53 wayland76 For example....
12:53 wayland76 thread1& So I think NCI is important
12:53 Su-Shee well with the release of rakudo, I was thinking to open up an perl6-users channel.
12:54 wayland76 thread2& So I also think Test.pm is important
12:54 wayland76 Su-Shee: This *is* the perl6-users channel :)
12:55 moritz_ Su-Shee: I think it doesn't make sense to separate developers from users early
12:55 wayland76 Basically, I think we should keep things here until the devs decide they need a #perl6-dev channel
12:55 Su-Shee wayland76: or that way around. :)
12:55 moritz_ only when the user's traffic becomes too large we should separate
12:56 Su-Shee (you all realize that I totally count on the success ;)
12:56 wayland76 From an Australian point of view, the problem is that it's dead in the middle of the day, not that there's too much traffic :)
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12:58 Su-Shee wayland76: well, infiltrate australia ;)
12:59 wayland76 Well, Australia's pretty empty :)
12:59 wayland76 If I could get a kangaroo to use Perl, we'd have 8 Perl people in Australia instead of 7 :)
12:59 wayland76 (Ok I exaggerate :) )
13:00 wayland76 We seem to have 3 P6 people in Australia now
13:00 missingthepoint night all, I badly need sleep :)
13:00 Su-Shee wayland76: wasn't damian conway australian?
13:00 wayland76 (Assuming we count bacek, who is really a #parrot person, I think)
13:01 wayland76 Yes, Damian is, I gues I mean #perl6 people instead of p6 people :)
13:01 moritz_ hey, he was here, like, once
13:01 wayland76 Actually, I'm very much in agreement with missingthepoint :)
13:02 Su-Shee (that's why australia hasn't more perl 6 people. they all sleep ;)
13:02 wayland76 Yes, but being here once doesn't solve the "dead in the middle of the day" problem :)
13:02 wayland76 I think if I didn't sleep for a long enough period of time, Australia would have one less #perl6 person :)
13:03 wayland76 Anyway, merry Christmas(*) to all, and to all a good night         (*) But we're not saying Christmas which year
13:03 wayland76 afk&
13:04 Su-Shee n8 :)
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13:35 frettled Nice with live rakudo hacking during the talk, hee-hee.
13:36 TimToady anyone want a commit bit? :)
13:37 frettled Sure.
13:37 TimToady you don't have one?
13:37 frettled Nopes, I've managed to keep my soul in merely 41 pieces so far.
13:37 frettled Please take #42.
13:37 TimToady then /msg me your email and preferred nick
13:37 TimToady (svn nick)
13:38 Su-Shee lord frettled voldemort. ;)
13:38 frettled hehe
13:38 moritz_ don't use '-' in nick names, the svn bot doesn't like those
13:38 moritz_ which is why it doesn't report any commits by Su-Shee++, I guess
13:39 TimToady sent
13:39 Su-Shee moritz_: bad nick, bad karma. :)
13:39 frettled thanks!
13:39 TimToady it's customary to add yourself to AUTHORS as a first test commit
13:39 frettled Hmm.  Now I just need to figure out why I can't get to Gmail, haha.
13:40 molaf_x joined #perl6
13:42 frettled Yes, the distinction between "your last programming language" and "the last programming language you ever want to learn" signify different paradigms in optimism.
13:43 Su-Shee *hihi* :))
13:43 moritz_ so, what kind of life rakudo hacking happened?
13:44 TimToady I think he demoed adding a .end method
13:44 TimToady but I was busy adding a commit bit :)
13:44 dakkar yes, Any::end was moved from PIR to Perl 6
13:44 moritz_ so adding things to the setting?
13:45 dakkar yes
13:45 moritz_ nice
13:45 dakkar and the tests passed :)
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13:47 frettled He'll commit in a bit.
13:47 frettled (a ha ha)
13:49 szbalint jonathan++ talking now :)
13:50 moritz_ jnthn++ even :-)
13:52 szbalint heh, I'm too used to irc.perl.org :)
13:53 frettled pmichaud++, btw, and again for having #perl6 open ;)
13:54 TimToady audreyt++ for the original #perl6 bootstrap
13:57 TimToady we still remember, we who dwell / in this dark land beneath the trees, / thy moonlight on the western seas...
13:59 KyleHa How do I do a symbolic reference to a sub?  sub foo { 'x' }; my $s = 'foo';  is ::$s(), 'x', 'works?'
14:00 TimToady &$s()
14:00 TimToady or &($s)()
14:00 TimToady oh, wait, symbolic
14:01 TimToady ::($s)()
14:01 PerlJam KyleHa: pretty sure rakudo doesn't grok it, no matter how it's spelt.
14:01 [particle] &{"$s"}()
14:01 TimToady maybe &::($s)()
14:01 TimToady std: &{"$s"}()
14:01 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Obsolete use of &{"$s"}; in Perl 6 please use &("$s") instead at /tmp/F0KRaAw1QW line 1:␤------> [32m&{"$s"}[33m⏏[31m()[0m␤FAILED 00:03 54m␤»
14:01 [particle] oot!
14:02 [particle] std: &::($s)()
14:02 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $s is not predeclared at /tmp/xIZoBeiTHX line 1:␤------> [32m&::($s[33m⏏[31m)()[0m␤ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:03 KyleHa Looks like &("$s")() is the winner, if STD is to be believed.
14:03 frettled yikes
14:05 TimToady useless use of quotes, actually
14:05 ruoso std: my $s = 'foo'; sub foo { }; ::($s)()
14:05 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 37m␤»
14:05 ruoso I think the prefix & is not really needed if you really want to invoke it
14:05 TimToady but &() won't do symbolic
14:05 TimToady only actual code objects
14:06 TimToady in theory ::($s) 'x' should work
14:06 TimToady std: ::($s) 'x'
14:06 ruoso exactly... you only need to use the contextualizer when you might require a cast
14:06 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/6AdhYAvxAu line 1:␤------> [32m::($s) [33m⏏[31m'x'[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤  infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤Other potential difficulties:␤
14:06 p6eval ..Variable $s i…
14:07 TimToady it's not handling ::($s) like a full-fledged name for some reason
14:07 TimToady well, probably assuming it's a type, I suppose
14:07 ruoso TimToady, last time I checked it was parsing it in a pretty confusing way
14:07 TimToady there were some LTM workarounds in that spot, yes
14:08 KyleHa OK, now I'm going with ::(
14:08 KyleHa Oops.
14:08 TimToady but it's a good question whether it should assume ::($s) is a type or a function name
14:08 TimToady can't assume both
14:08 KyleHa That's ::($s)() to call.
14:08 TimToady std: ::($s)()
14:08 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $s is not predeclared at /tmp/hnRqzKZqhH line 1:␤------> [32m::($s[33m⏏[31m)()[0m␤ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:08 TimToady well, it liked it, kinda
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14:09 ruoso TimToady, ::($s)() makes the invocation explicit
14:09 ruoso making it easier to the parser, i guess
14:10 KyleHa So, could I use this to turn a name into a code reference?  my $code = &{ ::( $name ) };
14:11 ruoso std: my $s = 'foo'; sub foo {}; my $code = ::($s); $code === &foo; # same object
14:11 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 55m␤»
14:11 ruoso KyleHa, you don't need the outer &{ }
14:11 TimToady it forces initial :: to parse as a term
14:11 KyleHa Cool, thanks ruoso++
14:12 ruoso TimToady, or am I wrong and that would make a call?\
14:12 frettled hmm, I think this answers a question I forgot to ask about regarding one of my blog entries from NPW ...
14:12 TimToady anything following by () is going to try to call the thing
14:12 TimToady even a type
14:12 TimToady that's how we get Str()
14:12 ruoso TimToady, I mean without the () in the end
14:12 TimToady probably not
14:12 ruoso TimToady, look the last snippet I sent to std
14:13 TimToady I would think that would match
14:13 * ruoso too
14:14 frettled So, to do a Schwartzian transform, this would be ...
14:14 ruoso frettled, schwartzian transform is part of Perl 6 core now
14:14 ruoso just use the sort sub with only one parameter
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14:15 frettled @sorted = @unsorted.sort: { ::(  something wonderful ) }
14:15 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
14:15 frettled woops.
14:15 * frettled forgot lambdabot
14:16 literal alester: ping
14:16 frettled ruoso: I've used the specialized example with .uc, but not with a symbolic code reference, which is what the ST is all about.
14:16 alester yes
14:16 alester ?
14:16 * frettled meant to look into this in April, but I forgot
14:16 KyleHa spec tests have &::($name)(), now that I look.
14:17 Juerd ST has nothing to do with symbolic references afaik
14:17 literal alester: made a pull request for you on github regarding vim-perl
14:17 ruoso KyleHa, that's just more explicit
14:17 alester I saw.
14:17 ruoso frettled, is it?
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14:19 JimmyZ Is november wiki any spec or roadmap?
14:19 ruoso TimToady, the ::($s) syntax is only valid for subs and types, right?
14:19 ruoso you still need to use MY::<$foo> in order to access other cariables
14:19 ruoso s/car/var/
14:19 JimmyZ Ts there any roadmap or spec for November?
14:20 JimmyZ s/Ts/Is
14:20 KyleHa std: sub foo { 'I am foo' }; my $name = 'foo'; say ::$name();
14:20 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/YqQM6sgg96 line 1:␤------> [32m{ 'I am foo' }; my $name = 'foo'; say ::[33m⏏[31m$name();[0m␤    expecting any of:␤   POST␤   bracketed infix␤    infix stopper␤    morename␤       postfix␤
14:20 p6eval ..postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standa…
14:20 alester literal: Did you note the changes in the changelog?
14:20 TimToady ::() is supposed to allow any indirect identifiers or even names, reparsing :: in the string
14:20 JimmyZ missingthepoint: hello
14:21 KyleHa std: sub foo { 'I am foo' }; my $name = 'foo'; say ::($name)();
14:21 literal alester: ah, didn't notice there's a changelog
14:21 ruoso TimToady, hmm... so it depends on the compiler environment?
14:21 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:21 alester There might not be one, actually. :-)
14:21 literal alester: I'll add an entry there
14:21 alester Start one if not.
14:21 literal well, there's a Changes file
14:21 alester there ya go.  Thanks.
14:21 literal I see you have stuff about q() ops there
14:22 alester ok
14:22 literal I think that might all be fixed by the change I just made (well, mauke did it)
14:22 alester good.
14:22 alester just note it in there.
14:22 literal will do
14:22 alester and I'll pull it when you've done so.  thanks.
14:22 ruoso std: my $s = '$*foo'; say ::($s); # TimToady, does that work?
14:22 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:23 TimToady probably not
14:24 TimToady MY::{$var} doesn't do any parsing of $var
14:24 ruoso TimToady, ah... so it isn't really "reparsing"
14:24 TimToady it's just a hash key
14:24 TimToady the ::() form is supposed to reparse, but is probably not expecting another sigil
14:24 ruoso right... but the subroutines aren't stored without the &
14:24 frettled Juerd, ruoso: well, yes, as I've understood it, an ST allows for an arbitrary function to be applied as a part of the transform.
14:25 Juerd Arbitrary doesn't have to mean symbolic
14:25 TimToady any unary function
14:25 ruoso std: my $s = '$s'; say ::($s); # TimToady, what about that?
14:25 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:25 TimToady I don't think so
14:26 ruoso right... so ::() is specific to subs and types
14:26 ruoso you need to use MY::{$s} in order to access other variables
14:26 TimToady %::($name)
14:26 TimToady so no
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14:27 ruoso you mean the prefix sigil defines the sigil of the actual variable?
14:27 TimToady most places you can put an identifier, you can put ::()
14:27 TimToady (but not all)
14:28 ruoso so...
14:28 TimToady and substitute one or more identifiers separated with ::
14:28 ruoso my %a; my $s = 'a'; say %::($s).keys
14:28 ruoso TimToady, I really thought about it as a regular prefix, as in %(::($s))
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14:29 TimToady that doesn't make sense to me
14:29 ruoso std: my %a; my $s = 'a'; say %(::($s)).keys
14:29 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:29 TimToady %() requires hard ref, and ::() provides a string to interpolate into a name
14:30 TimToady semantic error
14:30 TimToady like
14:30 TimToady std: %("foo")
14:30 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 36m␤»
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14:31 ruoso TimToady, so %::("foo") is semantically the same as %foo
14:31 TimToady correct
14:32 ruoso so I guess we need the & in &::($s)
14:32 TimToady it's name interpolation rather than string interpolation
14:32 araujo morning
14:32 TimToady probably
14:32 ruoso but the variable name contains the sigil....
14:33 TimToady fine, it's reinterpreting the name after the interpolation
14:33 TimToady unlike MY::{$var}
14:33 ruoso right... so the expression is sigil+"identifier interpolation"
14:34 frettled *confused*  :)
14:34 ruoso which means that a bare ::($s) can only match a type
14:34 TimToady ::("pi")
14:34 TimToady biab &
14:34 ruoso std: my $s = 'foo'; sub foo { }; say &::($s)
14:35 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 37m␤»
14:35 ruoso std: my $s = 'foo'; sub foo { }; say &::($s) 'x'
14:35 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/TFxXE7AVpL line 1:␤------> [32mmy $s = 'foo'; sub foo { }; say &::($s) [33m⏏[31m'x'[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        bracketed infix␤  infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤
14:35 p6eval ..terminator␤FAILED 00:02…
14:35 ruoso TimToady, right... but "pi" in your example is already special, isn't it? I mean... it isn't a regular sub... or is it?
14:38 frettled ah, low battery power, the show stopper of the millennium.
14:38 TimToady values like pi are parsed like types, but are not types
14:38 TimToady and all enums, for example
14:39 TimToady std: True 'x'
14:39 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Confused (two terms in a row?) at /tmp/X8hzn3cjNL line 1:␤------> [32mTrue [33m⏏[31m'x'[0m␤    expecting any of:␤   bracketed infix␤  infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤  terminator␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
14:39 ruoso TimToady, right... it means it is installed in the lexpad without the sigil
14:39 JimmyZ rakudo: '\x[0041,0300]'.say;
14:39 ruoso so it fits
14:39 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«\x[0041,0300]␤»
14:39 JimmyZ rakudo: '\x[0041,0300]'.codes
14:39 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
14:40 ruoso rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".say
14:40 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«À␤»
14:40 ruoso rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".codes
14:40 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
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14:43 JimmyZ rakudo: '\x[0041,0300]'.graphs
14:43 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
14:43 JimmyZ rakudo: '\x[0041,0300]'.graphs
14:43 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
14:43 JimmyZ rakudo: '\x[0041,0300]'.chars
14:43 p6eval rakudo 24b26a:  ( no output )
14:43 JimmyZ rakudo: '\x[0041,0300]'.chars.say
14:43 ruoso JimmyZ, you probably want to use single quotes, anyway
14:43 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«13␤»
14:44 ruoso er... double quotes, I mean
14:44 ruoso rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".chars.say
14:44 JimmyZ rakudo: \x[0041,0300]".chars.say
14:44 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«2␤»
14:44 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6␤Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6␤Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "\".chars.sa"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3363)␤»
14:44 JimmyZ rakudo: \x[0041,0300]".graghs
14:44 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6␤Leading 0 does not indicate octal in Perl 6␤Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "\".graghs"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3363)␤»
14:44 JimmyZ rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".graghs
14:44 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'graghs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
14:45 JimmyZ rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".graphs
14:45 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'graphs' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
14:45 ruoso rakudo: say Str.^methods(:local).map: { ~$_ }
14:45 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«WHICHperlACCEPTSspr​intfScalarpredencodesucc␤»
14:45 JimmyZ ruoso: thanks.
14:46 ruoso rakudo: say join ", ", Str.^methods(:local).map: { ~$_ }
14:46 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«WHICH, ACCEPTS, perl, sprintf, Scalar, pred, encode, succ␤»
14:46 JimmyZ rakudo: say join ", ", Str.^methods(:local)
14:46 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«sprintf, Scalar, pred, encode, succ, ACCEPTS, perl, WHICH␤»
14:48 JimmyZ rakudo: my Int $x = undef;
14:48 p6eval rakudo 24b26a:  ( no output )
14:48 JimmyZ rakudo: my int $x = undef;
14:48 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "int $x = u"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3363)␤»
14:48 Matt-W less than awesome error message
14:49 JimmyZ rakudo: my $x = undef;
14:49 p6eval rakudo 24b26a:  ( no output )
14:49 JimmyZ rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".say;
14:49 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«À␤»
14:50 JimmyZ rakudo: "\x[0041,0300]".perl.say;
14:50 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«"À"␤»
14:51 literal alester: will this do? http://github.com/hinrik/vim-perl/raw/4467e​c9d39583a7b0d36756c0d627f45f75ee73e/Changes
14:51 alester Jeepers, that's fantastic.
14:52 literal excellent
14:52 Psyche^ joined #perl6
14:52 alester it's now on my to-do.  Thanks very much.
14:52 literal you can pull, then
14:52 literal ok
14:52 alester I'm thinking of putting it up on CPAN, too.
14:57 MoC` joined #perl6
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15:56 KyleHa rakudo: class A { has $.x; method foo { $!x := 42 } }; my $a = A.new; $a.foo; say A.x;
15:56 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in set_attr_str()␤in method A::foo (/tmp/zzdHd6D5JR:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/zzdHd6D5JR:2)␤»
15:57 KyleHa std: class A { has $.x; method foo { $!x := 42 } }; my $a = A.new; $a.foo; say A.x;
15:57 p6eval std 27866: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
15:58 KyleHa rakudo: class A { has $.x; method foo { $!x = 42 } }; my $a = A.new; $a.foo; say A.x;
15:58 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
15:58 KyleHa rakudo: class A { has $.x; method foo { $.x = 42 } }; my $a = A.new; $a.foo; say A.x;
15:58 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in method A::foo (/tmp/S6o144GLjQ:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/S6o144GLjQ:2)␤»
16:00 KyleHa rakudo: class A { has $.x; method foo { $!x = 42 }; method bar { $!x}; }; my $a = A.new; $a.foo; say A.bar;
16:00 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤in Main (/tmp/1FoRI0PQ0p:2)␤»
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16:20 Su-Shee why is there russian in november's CGI.pm? ;)
16:21 moritz_ Su-Shee: because we believe in diversity, or so ;-)
16:21 moritz_ anyway, all the interesting comments should have an english version, too
16:22 PerlJam Su-Shee: Because we're the starship Enterprise!
16:22 MoC` Should there be any uninteresting comments? :)
16:23 moritz_ no, but that doesn't stop them from being there, usuallz
16:23 moritz_ s/z/y/
16:23 M_o_C hehe
16:23 moritz_ (switching keyboard layouts)--
16:39 Su-Shee i have a rakudo cgi... jippi. :)
16:39 KyleHa moritz: t/syntax/symbol_table.t says it's obsolete and seems to test some of the same stuff as S02-names/symbolic-deref.t  Can it die?
16:39 moritz_ KyleHa: yes
16:40 KyleHa Wow, that was easy.  I was expecting more hemming and hawing for some reason.
16:40 PerlJam KyleHa: we can argue with you if you like
16:40 moritz_ I keep these old tests as inspiration of what the new tests might cover
16:41 moritz_ when the new tests show some substance (or existence at all)
16:41 KyleHa Perljam: That's a generous offer.  Can I take a raincheck?
16:41 moritz_ ... I'm eager with getting rid of the old stuff
16:41 KyleHa Makes sense.
16:42 pugs_svn r27867 | putter++ | [elfparse] Cleanup - unbreak `make check`; use default `perl`; push old std.pm tweaks.
16:42 pugs_svn r27867 | putter++ | Clearing out old directories, I noticed misc/elfish/elfparse's `make check_STD_blue` (build elf using a gimme5 parser) had been left failing in HEAD.  Fixed.
16:42 pugs_svn r27867 | putter++ | IRx1_FromAST2_create.pl: Fixed a staging violation (a literal rx).  `make check` now passes again.
16:42 pugs_svn r27867 | putter++ | pugs_src_perl6/gimme5,pugs_src_perl6/Makefile: Use default perl, not hardwired /usr/local/bin/perl.
16:42 pugs_svn r27867 | putter++ | std.pm,emit5.pm: Old unpushed babysteps towards getting std.pm to run on elf.  Untested but for ./STD_green_run --start=number -e 3 .  ./STD_green_run --start=comp_unit -e 3 fails.
16:43 KyleHa I have a question about the TPF CLA also.  I sent mine in last week.  Will I get an email about that, or what?  How do I know if/when they got it?
16:44 moritz_ KyleHa: you'll probably won't get any feedback
16:44 moritz_ KyleHa: so you have to nag pmichaud to ask the appropriate people if it arrived...
16:44 moritz_ and give you the commit bit if the answer is positive
16:44 KyleHa Can I nag them directly?
16:44 moritz_ that's not quite optimal ;)
16:45 moritz_ if you know how they are, sure
16:45 KyleHa OK.  Thanks.  I'll see if I can find my nagging hat.
16:45 frettled Here: ^
16:45 pugs_svn r27868 | kyle++ | [t] remove old obsolete and redundant t/syntax/symbol_table.t
16:46 moritz_ KyleHa: I just asked in #parrot, maybe they know better
16:46 Su-Shee is there a tar.gz of the exact parrot version the rakudo-chicago release needs?
16:46 KyleHa Thanks, moritz++
16:46 moritz_ Su-Shee: yes, it's the 1.4.0 release of parrot...
16:46 Su-Shee moritz_: the exakt 1.4.0?
16:46 moritz_ (url coming)
16:46 moritz_ yes
16:47 moritz_ ftp://ftp.parrot.org/pub/parrot/relea​ses/stable/1.4.0/parrot-1.4.0.tar.gz
16:47 Su-Shee moritz_: can I plainly stuff it into the rakudo subdir, and do what.. call perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot ./parrot-1.4.0 ?
16:48 moritz_ Su-Shee: either just call 'perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot' and let it download it for you (from svn, but same thing)...
16:48 Su-Shee moritz_: there's no svn available on the target host.
16:48 moritz_ Su-Shee: or extract it into the parrot/ dir, cd parrot; perl Configure.pl && make
16:48 moritz_ then cd ..
16:48 moritz_ and perl Configure.pl; make
16:49 Su-Shee ok, try run.
16:49 Su-Shee will all next rakudo release be in sync with a parrot release? or is it accidental?
16:50 moritz_ it's intentional
16:50 moritz_ planned, even ;-)
16:50 moritz_ that's why rakudo release is usually 2 days after parrot release
16:50 kane_ joined #perl6
16:52 Su-Shee moritz_: I've done it with --gen-parrot the last few times.
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17:03 Su-Shee fine. works as well. nice.
17:06 Su-Shee moritz_: it still has to be a parrot subdir and you still can't remove it?
17:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: correct
17:09 Su-Shee ok. let's see.
17:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: the installable version of the current rakudo is in a branch, and I expect it to be merged before the next release
17:21 Su-Shee where does Configure.pl come from? I usally have Makefile.PL.
17:27 payload joined #perl6
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17:35 colomon Hmmm: http://hanekomu.at/blog/perl6/20090804-1708-​rakudo_star-perl_6_released_spring_2010.html
17:42 Su-Shee sounds official now :)
17:43 PerlJam except that Rakudo == Perl 6 will now forever be entrenched in people's minds.
17:43 Su-Shee PerlJam: I've realized a few days ago, that I usally actually say "rakudo perl".
17:44 Su-Shee and not perl six.
17:44 Juerd I've used "Rakudo Perl 6"
17:45 Su-Shee na, too long :)
17:54 unitxt joined #perl6
18:01 KyleHa I've always thought Rakudo == Perl 6.
18:02 Su-Shee in principle, there could be other Perl 6s. :)
18:02 KyleHa I learned later that "Perl 6" is really the specification, but I still think of Rakudo as "official".
18:03 Su-Shee I started out with pugs.
18:03 KyleHa If something comes along more awesome than Rakudo, I'll adjust my attitude then.  8-)
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18:16 KyleHa perl6: 'say 1' ~~ /<Perl6::Grammar::TOP>/; say $/.perl;
18:17 s1n joined #perl6
18:17 p6eval elf 27868: OUTPUT«Global symbol "$_47" requires explicit package name at (eval 125) line 4.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
18:17 p6eval ..rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method 'item' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6;Grammar'␤»
18:17 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/perl5/​Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib';␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/third-party/Parse-Yapp/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime…
18:18 jan_ joined #perl6
18:19 tann_ colomon: good to see xmas in spring
18:21 tann_ looks like tim bunce and gang are hard at work to get dbdi up and running...would be awesome to interact with dbs in rakudo
18:22 Su-Shee tann_: wow, very cool. that really would be nice. and a great code example.
18:22 arthur-_ dbi <3
18:23 tann_ mehears, tim chose to go with jdbc classes for dbdi :)
18:23 tann_ time to read java docs ;)
18:24 Su-Shee jdbc?
18:24 hercynium joined #perl6
18:24 tann_ yup
18:24 Su-Shee what's that exactly?
18:24 tann_ he decided that in 2004 i hear
18:25 tann_ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/p​erl.dbdi.dev/2009/07/msg52.html
18:27 Su-Shee tann_: I don't get it. what's this about the java stuff in there?
18:28 tann_ apparently, tim thinks jdbc classes/api are sane and would like to adopt 'em for generic db interface on parrot
18:29 tann_ maybe, its should be named pdbc instead of dbdi? :)
18:30 Su-Shee does that mean that java is required to run dbi or that the p6 dbi is just modeled after jdbc?
18:30 tann_ that's just at db driver level...if we write perl 6 using dbi, we probably won't see those classes/api
18:31 tann_ that's just for db driver implementors on parrot/perl 6...we p6 users won't see those things..afaik
18:31 Su-Shee I stupidly expected something similar as today with let's say mysql, postgres, oracle, sqlite drivers and that's it.
18:32 Su-Shee tann_: and people who are not users but install the stuff?
18:32 tann_ those are on top of dbdi, methinks
18:33 Su-Shee well that sounds scary. :)
18:33 tann_ dbdi is meant to be generic enough so that *all* languages targeting parrot will be able to use its api (or classes)
18:34 Su-Shee that I understand and expect.
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18:35 pugs_svn r27869 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Tests for RT #64874
18:35 tann_ dbi api is probably changed as well...  for example, selectall_arrayref ....no refs in p6 anymore :)
18:36 * ruoso was considering re-writing the XML::Grammar as a SAX parser...
18:36 * ruoso is lacking resources...
18:37 * arthur-_ want dbic in rakudo
18:37 tann_ dbic will be much nicer in p6/rakudo ;)
18:39 Su-Shee "are we there yet? can I have it now? is it done already?" :)
18:41 tann_ Su-Shee: contrary to what TimToady's sage words, patience is one of the virtues of a programmer :P
18:43 Su-Shee I know, but with a real release announcement and all, I'm really excited.
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18:47 ruoso rakudo: say "\xD"
18:47 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«
18:47 ruoso rakudo: say "\xA"
18:47 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«␤␤»
19:00 unitxt I wonder if the older way of doing OOP in Perl 5 or Moose is the better way to learn for someone that has just read 'Learning Perl', but plans on learning Perl 6 as soon as it's released and there's a book for beginners on it? Or maybe I need to learn both ways?
19:01 Tene unitxt: Moose, definitely.
19:01 Tene Moose borrowed a lot from Perl 6
19:02 unitxt Tene: Thank you.
19:03 Su-Shee unitxt: just privately or also job related?
19:05 masak joined #perl6
19:05 masak literal: ping
19:06 masak anyone agree that RT #68158 is invalid? http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=68158
19:07 * moritz_ takes a look
19:07 moritz_ not sure
19:07 masak moritz_: oh hai
19:07 moritz_ one could make a case for a slurpy being not such a tight match as a directly matching signature
19:08 moritz_ don't know how it's specced, though
19:08 KyleHa Looks ambiguous to me.
19:08 masak same here.
19:08 masak moritz_: one could make a case for that, yes.
19:08 moritz_ otherwise you could never win a dispatch against a (*@a, *%a) signature
19:08 moritz_ except by closer types
19:08 masak true.
19:09 KyleHa I'm looking at this one:  http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=65610
19:09 masak so in the precense of a () signature, a (*@a) signature should lose out, when calling foo().
19:10 * masak leaves RT #68158 open for the time being
19:10 moritz_ that's my opinion; don't know what the spec says, if it says something at all
19:10 KyleHa No, I'm confused.
19:10 moritz_ rakudo: my $m = "foo" ~~ /foo/; $m<greeting> = "OH HAI"; say $m.perl
19:10 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Method '!_perl' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
19:13 KyleHa Is the assignment to '$m' legal?
19:13 moritz_ no
19:13 moritz_ unless the regex was matched with an :rw modifier
19:14 KyleHa OK, so I'm not sure I care about this bug.
19:14 KyleHa It's an odd case of RT #64874.
19:14 moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 'foo'; $x ~~ m/.(o)/; $1 = 'bar'; say  $x
19:14 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«foo␤»
19:14 moritz_ KyleHa: add an eval_dies_ok { $m<greeting> = 'something' }, and be done
19:15 KyleHa OK.
19:15 moritz_ the .perl failing is just a fallout of the then corrupted structure of the match object
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19:20 pugs_svn r27870 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Label tests for RT #64880
19:20 pugs_svn r27871 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #65610
19:20 ruoso http://gist.github.com/161467 -- a xml grammar closer to the xml spec
19:20 donaldh joined #perl6
19:21 masak ruoso++
19:22 masak ruoso: maybe add the distinctiveness of that grammar to krunen's XML module?
19:26 ruoso masak, my idea was more to tease...
19:26 payload joined #perl6
19:26 masak ruoso: that's fine, too. :)
19:30 colomon moritz_: Re #68158, as far as I could tell, the spec does not address this case, and the spectests seem to skip it deliberately.
19:30 moritz_ then it's something to bring up to p6l
19:32 KyleHa Does "+$obj" call Num() on the $obj or something else?
19:32 moritz_ .Num, yes
19:32 moritz_ actually...
19:32 moritz_ it calls prefix:<+>($obj)
19:33 moritz_ and we expect that to re-dispatch to $obj.Num()
19:33 KyleHa I have a Num method, but it doesn't work, even with "0 + $obj".
19:33 KyleHa Is that a known bug?
19:34 masak moritz_: it calls prefix:<+>($obj), because that's what the syntax +$obj means.
19:34 KyleHa Oh wait, nevermind.  It's a different problem.
19:34 moritz_ rakudo: class A { method Num() { 3 } }; say +A.new
19:34 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«3␤»
19:36 ruoso masak, I wish I had the time to work on it... and on Faz... and SMOP, rakudo, mildew, catalyst...  ;)
19:37 KyleHa Next commit would benefit from a review.
19:37 pugs_svn r27872 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #64888
19:37 KyleHa Here:  http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/27872
19:37 * moritz_ takes a look
19:37 masak ruoso: I know the feeling. my productivity right now is on hold due to pending presentation tomorrow.
19:38 KyleHa Bug number appears seven times in the tests.  I wonder if that's a record.  8-)
19:38 ruoso wayland76, I just replied your mail with another prospective implementation of the grammar, but making it closer to the XML Spec at the same time as trying to make it compatible with the SAX API
19:39 moritz_ KyleHa: looks good to me
19:39 KyleHa moritz++ # checking my work  (Thanks!)
19:39 ruoso wayland76, if you look at the XML spec you'll see that it basically describes the grammar...
19:44 eternaleye masak: As far as that RT goes, if people want to require a non-empty slurpy, they can just use 'where *.elems > 0'
19:45 masak eternaleye: that is indeed so.
19:45 moritz_ eternaleye: that doesn't help if you want to add a tighter multi later to an existing, general multi
19:46 masak eternaleye: I think the question is more of "what should be the default behaviour, and why?"
19:46 eternaleye Mm, yeah
19:46 moritz_ eternaleye: if that multi is not code you control, that can get ugly quickly
19:46 moritz_ and we want to encourage extensibility, after all
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19:59 alester OK PMICHAUD DO WE HAVE A PLAN YET? HUH HUH?
19:59 masak alester: actually, pmichaud unveiled a plan during the lightning talk session today.
19:59 alester nice
20:00 alester I'm going to be trying to track that for the project
20:00 alester and spreading it to the outside world.
20:01 masak alester: the response of the auditorium was very positive.
20:01 alester Did he say "Spring 2010"?
20:01 masak it seemed that this was what people had been waiting for.
20:01 masak alester: he did.
20:02 masak alester: he also said "Rakudo Star"/
20:02 alester Did he say that I was super-awesome?
20:02 masak ...which is more of a phase than a version name.
20:02 alester Rakudo Star is the sort of "not quite beta not alpha either" thing?
20:02 masak alester: I might have missed the super-awesome part, but no, I don't believe so.
20:02 masak alester: it's a phase.
20:03 alester It is not.  I continue to be super-awesome.
20:03 masak it's the phase where we want the world to see us a little more, so that we get more app devs.
20:03 masak alester: we're talking cross-purposes, but that's fine. :)
20:03 alester Man, I hate that.  Who wants to deal with crabby dolphins?
20:04 PerlJam alester: you're super-awesome.  (does it count if I say it on #perl6?)
20:04 * masak gets "pinky and the brain" vibes
20:04 KyleHa joined #perl6
20:04 payload my t/spec/S32-io/IO-Socket-INET.t fails :(
20:05 moritz_ payload: always? or only sometimes?
20:05 Tene It does?  I touched sockets recently... but that test passed for me.
20:05 Tene Lemme check if I can reproduce.
20:06 payload http://gist.github.com/161489
20:07 moritz_ payload: which OS?
20:07 payload ubuntu 8.10
20:07 * Tene rebuilding rakudo
20:07 payload i rebuild mine too
20:07 payload but i thought i have your commit
20:07 PerlJam payload: did you "make realclean" first?
20:07 Tene my commit shouldn't affect that test at all, one way or another.
20:08 Tene Yes, it passes for me
20:08 payload PerlJam: ^^ now i did... i think i missed it last time
20:09 payload ok, give me some minutes for building
20:09 Tene payload: what platform are you on?
20:09 payload (10:07:23 PM) payload: ubuntu 8.10
20:09 Tene :)
20:10 PerlJam has the test changed?
20:11 PerlJam (I know you said it passed for you Tene, but it may be relevant to payload's problem if the test has changed)
20:11 Tene PerlJam: that test hasn't changed recently.
20:11 moritz_ I added a smartlink on Sunday
20:11 PerlJam Tene: what platform are *you* on?
20:11 moritz_ (which is just a comment to Perl)
20:11 PerlJam :)
20:11 PerlJam moritz_: a POD comment?  ;)
20:11 payload is there a blog software written _and_used_ in perl 6? i am interessted cause i want to microblog with perl6 about perl6
20:11 Tene PerlJam: fedora linux x86_64
20:12 moritz_ the last previous change was 2009-07-23
20:12 Tene payload: I wrote a very basic blog software, but it's not good enough to be used.
20:12 Tene it could be made usable with not too much work, though
20:13 payload i wanted to experiment with IO::Socket::INET to write some XMPP interaction.... maybe i can blog via XMPP posts ^^ that would be nice
20:14 Tene Very nice. :)
20:14 payload omg, my setup of rakudo is wrong.. i need some moar minutes ^^ (doesnt make :/ )
20:15 ancients joined #perl6
20:16 PerlJam once someone has some basic blog software going, the next thing you know someone will write a markdown parser+actions to render it.
20:17 moritz_ PerlJam: masak++ has written parsers for two markup languages already :)
20:17 moritz_ so if you're fine with blogging in mediawiki syntax... ;-)
20:17 moritz_ don't know what the other format is
20:18 payload yes, it's located in the november wiki repo, i think
20:18 masak yes.
20:19 masak moritz_: the other one was a minimal markup, made by us in the early days of November.
20:19 masak we still keep it around, and call it Minimal.
20:20 masak the MediaWiki format hasn't received much love from me lately. but it already does the most basic things, such as bold, italic, and headings.
20:21 * PerlJam now has a perl6 project to work on and blog about :)
20:22 masak PerlJam++
20:23 szbalint joined #perl6
20:23 PerlJam well, I have *another* one to work on and blog about.  I tend to have too many ideas and not enough time, so nothing quite gets done
20:24 masak sounds like the same issue I'm having.
20:24 masak I find that others' enthusiasm is often a strong drive, though.
20:24 masak so (maybe fortunately), the projects being worked on tend to be the ones others care about.
20:24 Su-Shee yeah. and very distracting from own ideas.
20:24 PerlJam yeah, if only we could bottle the enthusiasm!
20:25 japhb payload: You might consider porting bloxsom to Perl 6 ... it's supposed to have a small, clean core (I haven't looked at the code, just quoting the buzz)
20:26 PerlJam what happens to me is that I get the idea, get fired up about it, but then realize that I can't devote enough  time to it right now, so I'll put it off until later and either I'll forget about it later or something else comes up later or if I do start on it, it's usually late at night after the kids (and wife!) go to sleep and by then I'm so tired that I fall asleep
20:26 japhb PerlJam: I think you've just described about 80% of us ....
20:26 masak PerlJam: same here, sans kids+wife.
20:26 payload japhb: big thx. i will look into it
20:27 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
20:27 japhb payload: sorry, misspelled it, here's the url: http://www.blosxom.com/
20:30 buu Hrm.
20:31 Su-Shee buu: it'll going to be a perl6 class? ;))
20:32 buu Su-Shee: I'm afraid no, no classes fo rme.
20:32 buu I was just trying to figure exactly which principles perl5 is using for the trie optimizations.
20:37 payload i realized some days ago that everything which makes fun in python is expensive... moving repeating code into a method... slow... overloading operators... slower
20:38 payload are there facilities thinkable or planned in rakudo or parrot to make this "fun" (putting code into methods) cheap in performance?
20:39 moritz_ actually method calls aren't all that expensive
20:39 moritz_ thanks to jnthn++
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20:44 payload macros can be used to "inline" code, somewhat right? ^^
20:45 moritz_ yes; but they are there for different reasons
21:04 masak moritz_: another thing I found out today is that STD.pm compatibility might land in Rakudo by the end of the year.
21:05 Whiteknight joined #perl6
21:05 masak and with that, all manner of good things land.
21:05 moritz_ masak: I believe that when we have proto regexes and LTM.
21:05 masak heredocs, adverbs, grammar mods...
21:05 japhb I'm looking forward to NQP/PCT getting optimization.
21:06 masak moritz_: pmichaud said today that they're his plan for the coming months.
21:06 moritz_ masak: I'm not surprised, but pmichaud tends to have too many things to do ;-)
21:06 PerlJam japhb: even if you have to implement the optimization?  :)
21:07 masak moritz_: right, but this time there's a deadline. and, quoting pmichaud, "when there's a deadline, things tend to get done."
21:09 japhb PerlJam: If I had the time to learn the necessary CS, I'd be all over it.  As it is, I think I'm going to be using every bit of my spare cycles just trying to shepherd the Parrot standard library thing.
21:09 holmberg joined #perl6
21:10 PerlJam japhb++ do not deviate from your focus!  :)
21:10 japhb I get a feeling the "standard lib" needs a champion to keep it from bikeshedding to a stand still.
21:10 japhb PerlJam: :-)
21:10 PerlJam What's in the standard lib for parrot anyway?
21:11 moritz_ nothing yet?
21:11 japhb PerlJam: My/pmichaud's current overview proposal: http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail​/parrot-dev/2009-July/002666.html
21:11 japhb Specifics to be laid out when we have more people buy off on the concept.
21:11 japhb I would normally be on that phase already, but I'm cutting everyone some Warnock slack because of YAPC::EU
21:12 masak (Warnock slack)++
21:13 Su-Shee left #perl6
21:13 moritz_ speaking of ol' warnock, I hope somebody's going to give Ben Morrow better answers than I have so far
21:14 holmberg How do I access the Parrot dynpmc MD5 module in perl6 code? Examples somewhere?
21:15 PerlJam japhb: parrot has a module repo?  :)
21:16 japhb holmberg: Don't see any checked in, but I'd start with "use Digest::MD5:from<parrot>;" and work from there, translating the PIR API to Perl 6.
21:16 PerlJam japhb: anyway, It sounds good to me.  I'm all for it.  Parrot releases on Tue, Batteries on Wed, and Rakudo on Thu    ;)
21:16 japhb PerlJam: great, thanks
21:16 PerlJam But that module repository does niggle a little bit.
21:17 japhb PerlJam: and no, there is no module repo yet.  There will be, though, not least because there is a groundswell of unhappiness about runtime/parrot/library/ as dumping ground.
21:17 PerlJam cpaan?
21:17 japhb PerlJam: deciding on the details of that repo is another subtask.
21:18 PerlJam a big'un if you ask me, given the bikeshedding over CP6AN
21:18 PerlJam (unless some enterprising young soul just does it)
21:19 japhb PerlJam: Nod.  That bikeshedding annoyed me.  If I can't get some consensus over on the Parrot side, I may pick a partner and JFDI.
21:19 japhb "Rough consensus and working code."
21:19 PerlJam indeed.
21:20 holmberg japhb: Thanks. I tried the "use" you proposed. Got "Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()". Seems like an error of some kind??
21:21 japhb Wow.  This spam gets right down to it.  The subject line is "Enter new passowrd here".  Phishing for the very direct.
21:22 japhb holmberg: Oy.  Yeah, Null PMC access is always a bug.  Do the PIR tests for the module still work?
21:24 holmberg japhb: I don't know ... I just built rakudo+parrot for the first time. I'll have to learn how to run the tests :)
21:28 cytoplasm joined #perl6
21:36 holmberg japhb: "perl -Ilib t/dynpmc/md5.t" works in Parrot. So the "Null PMC access" problem is in rakudo??
21:37 japhb holmberg: Or in the magic that makes :from<parrot> work.  Tene is the expert on that, I'm just a consumer.
21:38 synth joined #perl6
21:38 Tene >.>
21:39 moritz_ rakudo: use Digest::MD5:from<parrot>;
21:39 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:445)␤»
21:40 Tene I bet it's the same bug where libraries need to be loaded from the 'parrot' HLL
21:40 * Tene looks.
21:41 Tene Oh, NM.
21:41 Tene Digest/MD5.pir is in the Digest namespace
21:41 Tene Not Digest;MD5
21:41 Tene Digest::MD5.pir isn't set up to follow the HLL export conventions.
21:42 japhb holmberg: Time to create a Trac ticket.  ;-)
21:43 maja_ joined #perl6
21:43 payload what i the correct translation from this perl 5 match ?    [0-9A-Fa-f]{2}
21:44 moritz_ payload: <xdigits>**2 or so
21:44 moritz_ rakudo: say '0xAF' ~~ / <xdigits> ** 2 /
21:44 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«Unable to find regex 'xdigits'␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block51 (/tmp/7zeL2KYiRX:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/7zeL2KYiRX:2)␤»
21:44 moritz_ rakudo: say '0xAF' ~~ / <xdigit> ** 2 /
21:44 p6eval rakudo 24b26a: OUTPUT«AF␤»
21:44 moritz_ ok, without the s
21:45 masak oh, and everybody: check out Damian's new Regexp::Grammars: http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Regexp-G​rammars-1.001005/lib/Regexp/Grammars.pm
21:46 payload thx moritz_
21:47 masak it's a module that backports much Perl 6 grammar goodness to Perl 5.
21:47 holmberg japhb: I'll try to do that later. I need to find out what Trac is first :)
21:47 * moritz_ still likes Perl 6 regexes better
21:47 masak it even has a trace function!
21:47 japhb holmberg: trac.parrot.org, our wiki / bug tracker / svn viewer system.
21:48 japhb our == parrot team
21:48 moritz_ %/ looks... ... ... I don't know
21:48 perl7 joined #perl6
21:50 holmberg japhb: Thanks for guiding a newcomer.
21:50 japhb holmberg: You'll find this channel to be pretty friendly.  :-)
21:50 masak holmberg: a newcomer! welcome!
21:53 holmberg What I was actually trying to do, was how to connect a "dynpmc" written in C/C++ to perl6, and use it in plain perl6 code. I guessed the MD5 module was a good example. But maybe there are others?
21:54 holmberg masak: thanks. It's partly your fault I'm looking at perl6 now :)
21:54 masak holmberg: glad to hear it.
21:54 PerlJam someone have a quick link to using "make" in perl6?  or documentation or something ?
21:54 PerlJam s/perl6/rakudo/
21:54 japhb holmberg: beyond my skillset, I'm afraid.  Tene, pmichaud, and jnthn would know, having to deal with the dynpmcs that Rakudo itself uses.
21:55 masak PerlJam: check out the create-new-project in Proto.
21:55 masak s/ct/ct script/
21:55 PerlJam masak: thanks.
21:57 nihiliad joined #perl6
21:57 PerlJam wait ... let me try to be more clean.  I'm talking about using make from the actions in a grammar in rakudo
21:57 PerlJam s/clean/clear/ even
21:57 masak oh.
21:57 PerlJam (ETOOMUCHMAKE)
21:57 masak PerlJam: hm, well, I don't have any code that does that.
21:57 masak but it's pretty straightforward.
21:58 moritz_ and there are even tests for that ;-)
21:58 masak 'make' simply sets an attribute at the relevant location in $/
21:58 masak moritz_++
21:58 PerlJam everythign is straightforward until you do something subtle and it doesn't work and you don't know why
21:58 masak PerlJam: there you go. check the tests. :)
21:58 PerlJam thanks again.
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22:03 holmberg Where is the best place to ask "complex" questions about Rakudo&Parrot that don't fit the IRC format? Is it the "perl6-users" mailing list?
22:04 Tene Probably.
22:04 Tene That's where I'd send it.
22:05 moritz_ aye
22:06 masak but I'd recommend starting on IRC.
22:06 masak we're more used to complexity than it might first seem. :)
22:06 Tene I mostly just ramble on IRC for a while and then tell masak to go figure it out for me.
22:08 masak yeah, that masak guy is one gullible cookie.
22:08 Tene Mmm, cookies.
22:13 holmberg I haven't used IRC before, so I don't know exactly how it works. But isn't a question "lost in space" soon after it is ask asked? (if not answered immediately)
22:14 Tene holmberg: Usually.  Sometimes someone notice sit in the channel history and will answer.  By "start with IRC" he means "Se eif anyone on RIC is avaialable right now to talk about it"
22:14 Tene and if not, then go to the ML.
22:15 moritz_ holmberg: also we have public logs at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today
22:15 moritz_ holmberg: so you can later point people to previous conversations
22:15 masak holmberg: I'd say on #perl6, a relatively high ratio of questions get noticed and answered, even if the answer sometimes is "gee, I have no idea"
22:19 holmberg moritz_: Thanks for the pointer. Good to know that I can go back and re-read things.
22:26 M_o_C joined #perl6
22:27 holmberg Thanks everybody. Will be back with more questions later :)
22:30 payload is there allready a way to translate __DATA__ ? http://gist.github.com/162357
22:32 cognominal joined #perl6
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22:48 eternaleye payload: IIRC, =begin DATA/=end DATA combined with $=DATA (ISTR the = twigil being for Podhandles)
22:52 eternaleye payload: S26 claims S02 contains the spec for inline data, but Firefox just hung when I went there so I can't give you a link to the appropriate section
22:52 icwiener_ joined #perl6
22:55 nihiliad joined #perl6
22:57 payload well it contains something
22:58 literal you find something if you search for '$=' in http://perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html
22:59 payload yes, found t/spec/S02-literals/pod.t
22:59 payload thx
23:02 eternaleye np
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