Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-08-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:56 carlin rakudo: try { 1/0 }; say $!.WHAT;
01:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
02:02 carlin rakudo: try { 1/0 }; $!.WHAT.say;
02:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
02:02 carlin rakudo: try { 1/0 }; $!.WHAT.perl.say;
02:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Exception␤»
02:03 carlin pugs: try { 1/0 }; say $!.WHAT;
02:03 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Str␤»
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03:52 KyleHa rakudo: class Foo { }; my $x = "Foo"; my $y = $x.new; say $y.WHAT;
03:52 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Foo()␤»
03:59 pugs_svn r28000 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #65132
03:59 pugs_svn r28001 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Tests for RT #65164
04:00 pugs_svn r28002 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Additional tests for RT #65170
04:01 dukeleto kyle++
04:02 KyleHa dukeleto: Know how to troubleshoot git svn?  My connection dropped in the middle of dcommit, and now it's acting as if a couple commits never happened.
04:02 dukeleto KyleHa: git reflog
04:03 KyleHa Oh, neat!
04:03 dukeleto git reflog keeps track of every tip that you traverse, even if it is not on a branch or gets lost via resetting. you should be able to "git reset" to a sha1 in their that meets your fancy
04:04 dukeleto git reflog is normally cleaned out every 2 months or so automagically, and that is configurable as well
04:04 pugs_svn r28003 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #65172
04:04 pugs_svn r28004 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #65212
04:04 KyleHa Amazing, dukeleto++, thank you!
04:05 dukeleto KyleHa: no worries, enjoy!
04:05 KyleHa From 'git reflog' I got the sha1 of the last local commit I did.  Then 'git reset' to that.  Then I had to 'git svn rebase' before 'git svn dcommit' would work.
04:06 dukeleto KyleHa: yeah, you have to "git svn rebase" a lot with git svn, basically whenever you change branches
04:06 dukeleto KyleHa: basically, you can't rebase too much :)
04:07 KyleHa That's good to know.
04:07 dukeleto KyleHa: which version of git are you using?
04:07 KyleHa I'd been thinking of it as the same as a 'pull', but I guess it does more than that.
04:07 dukeleto newer version of git svn will do the git svn rebase for you if they sense that you need it
04:07 KyleHa It's 1.6.0.4
04:08 dukeleto KyleHa: 1.6.4rc3 is out, may as well get the released 1.6.3 or just run whatever is on master on git.git like me :)
04:09 dukeleto KyleHa: you may not have colored git log --graph support yet in your version, and git svn has gotten lots of bugfixes
04:09 KyleHa I may do that, then.  Normally I just stick with whatever's in Debian stable.
04:09 KyleHa Er, it's Ubuntu in this case, actually.
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04:13 dukeleto KyleHa: actually, 1.6.4 is out, I am behind the times :)
04:14 dukeleto lots of git svn features, even from 1.6.3
04:15 KyleHa OK, I'm sold.
04:16 dukeleto KyleHa: http://www.kernel.org/pub/softwar​e/scm/git/docs/RelNotes-1.6.4.txt
04:17 KyleHa Thanks again dukeleto++  Have a good night!
04:21 * tak11 is away: Eating a Banana, gtfo
04:43 * tak11 is back (gone 00:21:42)
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05:56 adhoc =P
05:56 adhoc oops
06:04 ewilhelm rakudo: eval("sub {say 'hello'}");
06:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«hello␤»
06:07 ewilhelm is that a bug in eval string?
06:08 ewilhelm pugs: eval("sub {say 'hello'}");
06:08 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«hello␤»
06:08 ewilhelm err eval-string is supposed to execute the sub?
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06:13 ewilhelm pugs: eval(q<sub {say 'hello'}>);
06:13 p6eval pugs:  ( no output )
06:13 ewilhelm rakudo: my $x = eval(q<sub {say 'hello'}>); say $x; $x.();
06:13 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«_block69␤hello␤»
06:14 ewilhelm I'm missing something about "" strings?
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07:05 cj TimToady: you've got mails
07:05 cj why am I up at midnight?
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07:32 * dukeleto doesn't know
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10:09 yath_ heya
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11:14 masak rakudo: sub foo($positional, :$named) {}; foo(:named)
11:14 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«invalid arg type in named portion of args␤in sub foo (/tmp/qYe83bQwFF:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/qYe83bQwFF:2)␤»
11:15 masak this error message is less-than-awesome for two reasons:
11:15 masak (1) it doesn't say the name of the arg that cause the error, or the name of the arg that it expected
11:15 masak (2) it doesn't say the name of the called sub
11:15 * masak submits rakudobug
11:16 masak rakudo: ((Temporal::DateTime.new(:date(​Temporal::Date.new(:year(2010), :month(4))), :time(Temporal::Time.new)).epoch - time) / 86400).ceiling.fmt("%d days left until April!").say
11:16 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«228 days left until April!␤»
11:16 masak (locally in a branch, I now have DateTime.new('2010-04') working)
11:29 masak oh wait. strike the (2) above. I'm blind, apparently.
11:32 pmurias masak: it should also print out the (type of the) thing supplied
11:32 masak pmurias: aye, good idea. and perhaps of the thing expected.
11:33 pmurias that for sure
11:34 * masak adds this to the RT ticket
11:42 colomon Can you guys explain to me why that error says anything about type at all?  It seems like the real problem is a parameter is missing?
11:43 masak colomon: I think that it might be a Parrot error, and that 'arg type' here refers to the positional/named distinction.
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11:49 colomon rakudo: sub foo($positional, :$named) {}; foo(:named("hello"))
11:49 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«invalid arg type in named portion of args␤in sub foo (/tmp/76c3KpjILv:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/76c3KpjILv:2)␤»
11:50 colomon rakudo: sub foo($positional, :$named) {}; foo("pos", :named)
11:50 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
11:54 jnthn Heh. Yet more reasons we really need to re-do signature binding.
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12:17 masak rakudo: role Maybe[::T] { role Just[T] {} }; say Maybe[Int].new()
12:17 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Potential internal error: bindability check may have done more than just binding.␤()<0xb69c7be8>␤»
12:17 masak what does that error mean?
12:19 jnthn First off, nesting roles inside roles is probably wrong unless they're lexically scoped...
12:19 jnthn Well, the inner one is...
12:20 jnthn The error is an internals check that I put in to detect certain things going awry.
12:21 jnthn Because it's a lot better than something silently going wrong, and just causing oddness later on that would take ages to unpick and debug.
12:22 ascent joined #perl6
12:22 jnthn Feel free to file a rakudobug anyway.
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12:23 jnthn Since it's in theory something that should never occur.
12:24 jnthn rakudo: role Maybe[::T] { }; say Maybe[Int].new()
12:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«()<0xb69cc438>␤»
12:24 jnthn rakudo: role Maybe[::T] { role Foo { } }; say Maybe[Int].new()
12:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«()<0xb69a62f8>␤»
12:24 jnthn rakudo: role Maybe[::T] { role Foo[T $] { } }; say Maybe[Int].new()
12:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Potential internal error: bindability check may have done more than just binding.␤()<0xb696cea8>␤»
12:24 jnthn heh
12:25 jnthn Anyway, I suspect Rakudo * may well just forbid nesting other packages inside roles.
12:25 synth joined #perl6
12:29 masak fair enough.
12:29 * masak submits rakudobug
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12:39 guest_007 rakudo: say ((localtime)[3..5]).perl;
12:39 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub localtime␤»
12:40 guest_007 rakudo: bless me some time object
12:40 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "object"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
12:41 masak rakudo: say time
12:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1250426510.23988␤»
12:42 masak rakudo: say Time.gmtime
12:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«2009-08-16T12:42:50+0000␤»
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14:11 takadonet1 hey all
14:11 jaldhar joined #perl6
14:12 bpetering hey takadonet1 :)
14:12 phenny bpetering: 12 Aug 09:13Z <moritz_> tell bpetering there are no really urgent tasks in the test suite right now. Anything mentioned in the t/spec/TODO file is worth doing...
14:12 phenny bpetering: 12 Aug 09:15Z <moritz_> tell bpetering if you understand regexes (partly) there are many things in S05 that need better coverage and aren't all that complicated
14:12 takadonet1 shit, looks like I left my irc on at work....
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14:19 colomon rakudo: my Int $a = 1; $a.perl.say;
14:19 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:19 colomon rakudo: my Int $a = 1; $a.perl.eval.say;
14:19 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Method 'eval' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤»
14:20 colomon rakudo: my Int $a = 1; eval($a.perl).say;
14:20 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:24 KyleHa Colomon: You might be interested in http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/t/s​pec/S02-names_and_variables/perl.t
14:27 colomon KyleHa: I was just experimenting to see how to use eval and perl together, so I could write a proper test for a .perl method I wanted to write.
14:27 takadonet1 left #perl6
14:27 colomon But thank you for a pointer to the proper spot in the docs so I can double check I am I doing it correctly.  KyleHa++
14:28 colomon Actually, is .perl intended to work automatically for classes in the future?  Or will each class have to implement its own?
14:28 masak colomon: that's a good question.
14:29 masak colomon: what do you think?
14:29 masak rakudo: sub foo($n) { say $n; return if !$n; eval("foo({$n-1})") }; foo(1000)
14:29 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1000␤999␤998␤997␤996␤995␤994␤993␤992␤991␤99​0␤989␤988␤987␤986␤985␤984␤983␤982␤981␤980␤979␤978␤​977␤976␤975␤974␤973␤972␤971␤970␤969␤968␤967␤966␤96​5␤964␤963␤962␤961␤960␤959␤958␤957␤956␤955␤954␤953␤​952␤951␤950␤949␤948␤947␤946␤945␤944␤943␤942␤941␤»
14:29 colomon It's not much work to implement on your own.
14:29 masak colomon: true.
14:29 masak colomon: then again, providing a sensible default sounds kinda neat, too.
14:29 colomon But it seems like it would also be pretty easy to automatically dump the member variables in a default-style new call.
14:30 masak right.
14:30 KyleHa I wonder what .perl does with a socket or file handle.
14:30 masak rakudo: say open('README', :r).perl
14:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (lib/Safe.pm:25)␤»
14:30 masak dang. :)
14:30 colomon I wonder if it would be possible to code a role which uses introspection to the do the right thing for straightforward classes...
14:31 KyleHa Says "IO.new()" here.
14:32 colomon So it's the default class behavior.
14:33 colomon Filehandles seem like something for which this can't possibly work (in general)?
14:33 KyleHa Right.
14:34 KyleHa I can serialize a straight struct, shove it over the network to the other side of the world, and reconstitute it just as it started out, but you'll never do that with an open file handle.
14:35 KyleHa Now that I've said that, I'm trying to figure out how to do it.
14:39 jnthn rakudo: say $*IN.perl
14:39 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«IO.new()␤»
14:41 bpetering KyleHa: what kind of state do filehandles keep currently? would there be a way to make them keep (i.e., store) all mutating method calls and their args in order?
14:43 bpetering because you can't just store internal state, you have to have a way to reconstitute state within the surrounding environment
14:44 bpetering a filehandle is somewhat like a closure in that regard - it has state it gets from its surroundings
14:45 colomon rakudo: my Code $a = -> $a { $a * $a }; say $a.perl;
14:45 KyleHa joined #perl6
14:46 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
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14:46 colomon rakudo: my Code $a = -> $a { $a * $a }; (1..4).map($a).perl.say;
14:46 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«[1, 4, 9, 16]␤»
14:47 colomon rakudo: my Code $a = -> $a { $a * $a }; say $a.perl;
14:47 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
14:47 KyleHa I think the ultimate barrier to serializing a file handle is if it's reading from a pipe that's essentially infinite.
14:47 masak or potentially infinite.
14:48 KyleHa Other than that, you can basically read the file and wrap it up in something that will pretend the file is still there whether it is or not.
14:48 bpetering What if you require it to be there?
14:48 colomon yow, I hadn't thought of just including the entire file in the string.  crazy.
14:49 KyleHa bpetering: Then there are some filehandles you can .perl and some you can't.  8-)
14:49 KyleHa ...which is the same as what I was describing, more or less.
14:49 bpetering (Does it make sense to deserialize a filehandle in an environment which hasn't the file the handle has?)
14:50 bpetering Wow, that was obtuse. "Which doesn't have the required file"
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14:52 bpetering (And i don't think "obtuse" is the right word. I've just moved my machine and setup into a freshly painted room. Beware.)
14:53 masak "Perl 6: developed by people who sniffed paint!"
14:54 bpetering KyleHa: is that such a bad thing? (Sometimes can .perl, sometimes can't)
14:54 bpetering I think .perl on closures doesn't currently give you anything useful *all* the time.
14:54 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:55 bpetering masak: Congratulations, you just won the slogan contest! :)
14:55 colomon bpetering: does it *ever* give you anything useful on closures?
14:55 KyleHa bpetering: It's fine with me.  I think .perl will have to have limits.  I just want them to be not surprising.
14:55 masak bpetering: I sincerely hope I didn't. :)
14:56 colomon KyleHa: And hopefully have the limits be as generous as reasonably possible.
14:56 KyleHa colomon: Agreed.
14:56 jnthn colomon: I expect .perl on closures will become more useful.
14:56 jnthn I think what we can dow ith .perl on file handles is probably a little more limited.
14:57 bpetering colomon: Agreed (2nd), that's what I'm saying (1st)
14:58 bpetering jnthn: I would love something useful from .perl on closures, but have no idea how hard that is in implementation terms.
14:59 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:59 jnthn bpetering: Naive impl is not so hard.
15:00 bpetering As always, it's the edge cases which are hard?
15:01 jan_ joined #perl6
15:02 colomon bpetering: Sure -- like the closure that references a filehandle, I'm presuming....  ;)
15:03 jnthn bpetering: Well, more that doing it efficiently may be harder.
15:04 KyleHa my $a = 1; my $c_str = { $a + 1 }.perl; $a++; # is $c_str.perl.() 2 or 3?
15:04 jnthn I mean, we know from the type if it's a method/sub/submethod/block, we can .perl its signature object, we know it's .name, and so forth. But there's probably nothing better to do with the stuff inside the block than just stash away a copy of the original source.
15:04 KyleHa Oops, I wrote that wrong.
15:05 jnthn Which we can easily get hold of, but it'd be more efficient to store the lot in one blob and index into it, I suspect.
15:06 KyleHa The question I was asking was whether a stringified closure would do what it would have done when it was stringified or whether it does what it would do upon eval.
15:06 jnthn Heh, I'd never seen .perl on a closure as giving you captures of the actual lexical state...
15:06 bpetering colomon: i grasp your point ;)
15:06 jnthn That *is* harder. :-)
15:06 KyleHa A stringy thunk or a stringy closure, I guess.
15:07 jnthn But anyway, what comes out of .perl should be feedable to eval in general.
15:08 jnthn For stateless things, they'll be equivalent. For things with state, well, that's kinda more interesting. :-)
15:09 bpetering jnthn: that makes sense to newbie-me, to maintain the definition of .perl's retval as "an eval()able piece of code"
15:12 bpetering doesn't the discussion of serializing filehandles have implications for/play into that ("things with state")?
15:13 jnthn Yes.
15:13 bpetering To be clearer, I think the question of "how much lexical state" is central, because the filehandle question is a sub-question of that
15:14 bpetering (i.e., if minimal lexical state, one can get away with a naive impl :)
15:14 jnthn In a sense, .perl is just a serializer, along the lines of Data::Dumper in Perl 5, with the deserialization function being eval.
15:16 jnthn I haven't see anything in the spec to make me think that .perl'ing a closure should give you anything more than just the source of the closure.
15:16 jnthn And if you try and go beyond that it's a huge kettle of fish.
15:16 bpetering jnthn: so "just a serializer" lets us avoid the question of lexical state? (to an extent)?
15:16 jnthn I think so, yes.
15:16 jnthn Otherwise you start having to ponder just how far we go.
15:17 colomon Is there anything in the spec to make you think .perl a closure gives you more than {...}?  I wasn't able to find much on .perl this morning (which is how this conversation started...)
15:18 bpetering jnthn: maybe it's not specced, but is there a good reason we shouldn't do anything with lexical state if it's a) possible and b) useful?
15:19 bpetering (I'm not big on computational theory yet, so I don't know if it's possible.)
15:19 jnthn Well, here's spec:
15:19 jnthn Returns a perlish representation of the object, so that calling C<eval>
15:19 jnthn on the returned string reproduces the object as accurately as possible.
15:20 bpetering (And I was about to write those last 2 points as a ludicrously parenthetical statement, so I'm going to get some fresh air :D
15:20 bpetering (2 mins)
15:20 wolverian is the cperl-mode.el in util/ maintained by someone nowadays?
15:21 lucs joined #perl6
15:25 jnthn bpetering: Well, I guess maintaining lexical state really properly somewhat implies re-attatching the block to the outer scope it was capturing before we .perl'd it. And not just the outer scope at a block level, but at an invocation record level. That's just kinda...well...full of issues. :-) You could try and instead save copies of all the state as it was, but that'd make the .perl output kinda non-trivial to follow...possibly a useful debugging aid tho
15:25 jnthn But once we get into this kind of realm, part of me always feels it's time to say "OK, that's for a module".
15:26 jnthn I'd rather the default was something where it's fairly easy to draw a line and say "that is what you can expect".
15:27 masak aye.
15:28 wolverian it doesn't run on my emacs 23, but I don't have enough elisp-fu to fix it. :(
15:29 jnthn Gah, it's too hot here to be bothered to do *anything*.
15:32 colomon jnthn: Where is that "as accurately as possible" language found?  I don't see it in S02 "Names and Variables".
15:34 masak rakudo: sub foo(Callable &app) { say &app({ greeting => "OH HAI" }) }; foo( sub (%env) { %env<greeting> } )
15:34 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
15:34 masak brain-wringingly convoluted. :)
15:35 jnthn colomon: S32
15:36 jnthn I'm surprised that got past a type check.
15:36 colomon jnthn++ Don't know how I missed that, I was that close to it back when I started this...
15:36 wolverian say app greeting => ...; and foo(-> *%env { ... }) might work too, I think, and looks a bit nicer
15:37 jnthn rakudo: sub foo(&x) { say "ok" }; foo({ say "lol" })
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ok␤»
15:37 jnthn rakudo: sub foo(Int &x) { say "ok" }; foo({ say "lol" })
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected Callable[Int], but got Block for x in call to foo␤in sub foo (/tmp/mAvBVqmkYz:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/mAvBVqmkYz:2)␤»
15:37 jnthn rakudo: sub foo( &x) { say "ok" }; foo({ say "lol" })
15:37 jnthn rakudo: sub foo(Callable &x) { say "ok" }; foo({ say "lol" })
15:37 masak wolverian: correct. I'm optimizing for other things than niceness right now. :)
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ok␤»
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ok␤»
15:38 jnthn wtf
15:38 jnthn rakudo: sub foo(&x) { }; say &foo.signature;
15:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Signature()<0xb5640ba8>␤»
15:38 jnthn rakudo: sub foo(&x) { }; say &foo.signature.perl;
15:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«:(x)␤»
15:38 masak something wrong?
15:38 jnthn rakudo: sub foo(Callable &x) { }; say &foo.signature.perl;
15:39 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«:(x where all(Callable))␤»
15:39 jnthn :-/
15:39 masak please state the nature of your medical emergency.
15:39 jnthn masak: Callable &x should mean I can only pass something that does Callable[Callable]
15:39 * masak submits rakudobug
15:40 jnthn Damm, just when I think I've got something right.
15:40 wolverian is the type parameter the return type?
15:40 jnthn wolverian: :(&x) is equivalent to :(Callable $x)
15:40 wolverian right, I mean what does Callable[Foo] mean
15:41 jnthn wolverian: :(Callable &x) should thus be equivalent to :(Callable[Callable] $x)
15:41 jnthn The type parameter indicates the return type constraint.
15:41 wolverian as I said, then. thanks. :)
15:42 jnthn rakudo: sub foo returns Int { }; sub bar returns Str { }; multi m(Int &x) { say 1 }; multi m(Str &x) { say 2 }; m(&foo); m(&bar);
15:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
15:42 jnthn So you can multi-dispatch like that. :-)
15:42 jnthn rakudo: sub foo returns Int { }; sub bar returns Callable { }; multi m(Int &x) { say 1 }; multi m(Callable &x) { say 2 }; m(&foo); m(&bar);
15:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
15:43 jnthn meh, well, at lesat the multi-dispatcher cares... :-)
15:44 jnthn Oh...I bet there's something in the signature binder for HLL interop that says "if this thingy came from outside of Perl 6 and we're looking for a Callable and it's a Parrot-level sub then it'll do", and it doesn't bother looking to see that we're just looking for Callable[], not Callable[SomeT].
15:45 jnthn So thankfully, that can probably be fixed without too much trouble.
15:46 * jnthn was dreading some deep nastiness in nestings parametric roles...
15:46 jnthn ...nestings of...
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16:28 shinobi-cl hi
16:29 masak shinobi-cl: o/
16:30 masak shinobi-cl: does the 'cl' in your nick stand for "Common Lisp"?
16:30 shinobi-cl i was following the following thread : http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/​index.php?option=com_kunena&amp;Itemid=9999​9&amp;func=view&amp;catid=244&amp;id=165373
16:30 shinobi-cl no, is ChiLe :)
16:30 masak ah.
16:30 shinobi-cl well, the thing is, they are talking about modelling materials. i.e.: gold, lead, wood... any industrial material
16:31 shinobi-cl and some guy mentioned perl6, specifically ROLES
16:31 masak yah, I see. impressive.
16:31 shinobi-cl butm the thing is, they want to store the roles in some database, and i was wondering.. is the is any way to create roles based on stored data
16:31 masak people know about Perl 6.
16:32 masak the state of the art in databases in the Perl 6 world is not very far evolved, I'm afraid.
16:32 shinobi-cl hehe, yes, the good thing is that they have found an application for those features... or at least are thinking in terms of things most languages dont provide yet
16:32 alester joined #perl6
16:32 shinobi-cl yes, but, it should be possible to construct the roles based on stored data?
16:33 jnthn Yes
16:33 shinobi-cl or, if the want to change "gold" role, for example, they will have to edit the source code?
16:33 jnthn This is what the meta-model in Perl 6 provides for.
16:33 jnthn At the moment though, Rakudo's support for this is weak.
16:34 jnthn But we're getting closer.
16:34 shinobi-cl ahh, could you direct me to the docs for that?
16:34 jnthn Well, the spec is kinda hazy... The best we really have at the moment is the HOW API section in http://www.perlfoundation.org​/perl6/index.cgi?smop_oo_api
16:35 jnthn You can see there's things like add_method, add_attribute...
16:36 jnthn I'm expecting these will enter S12 at some point.
16:36 shinobi-cl mmmm i see.... great, thanks :) That, together with RDF could b
16:36 shinobi-cl ...could make a very interesting application
16:36 shinobi-cl well.. gotta read some docs now... thanks, and bye
16:36 jnthn welcome, have fun :-)
16:37 jnthn Phew, it's cooling down a bit here.
16:37 jnthn masak: BTW, a while back you mentioned that Korean has a very logical and well designed writing system.
16:37 jnthn masak: I'm learning to read it now, and I have to say I agree. :-)
16:37 masak jnthn: yes, it's amazing.
16:38 masak kudos on learning to read it. I've made one half-hearted attempt a few months back.
16:38 masak even a half-hearted attempt had some pretty good results. :)
16:38 jnthn Well, the fact that I'm actually going to Korea is a good motivator. :-)
16:38 masak when're you going?
16:40 jnthn Late September.
16:41 jnthn I'm tacking a week and a half in South Korea onto the end of my trip to Japan.
16:41 jnthn The "excuse" for which is to attend YAPC::Asia, but actually I mostly just want to go wander around some new places. :-)
16:42 masak that's a reason as good as any. :)
16:42 jnthn I'm giving a couple of talks at YAPC::Asia...they're on the schedule. :-)
16:42 jnthn One is on Rakudo *.
16:43 masak nice.
16:44 jnthn "What on earth is paradise whatever?" ;-)
16:46 masak nice symmetry to that sentence :)
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17:07 moritz_ rehi
17:09 neusse joined #perl6
17:09 masak lolitsmoritz
17:11 moritz_ it is, indeed
17:13 moritz_ did you feel the sudden weight of total dominion sometime this weekend?
17:13 masak no, why?
17:14 moritz_ then you know that my prototype for world domination didn't work :/
17:14 moritz_ but I did code up something nice, give me a few minutes to push to github and publish the blog entry...
17:14 * masak almost can't contain himself with excitement
17:16 * moritz_ can't find the button for creating a new repo on github
17:17 masak moritz_: go to your profile page.
17:17 masak it's on the top right.
17:17 BinGOs There is a link next to the Your Repositories on your dashboard
17:18 masak right. that's a better way to say it. what BinGOs said.
17:18 * moritz_ found it, thanks
17:18 alester joined #perl6
17:19 BinGOs Or you could use Net::Github or POE::Component::Github to create one >:)
17:25 moritz_ repo pushed, but the svn server which stores the file for my blog gives me a 403 :(
17:27 colomon Is there a way to define operator precedence for new operators yet?
17:27 moritz_ colomon: only by patching src/parser/grammar-oper.pg
17:28 colomon Ah.  That's a bit more than I want to do this afternoon.  :)  moritz_++
17:33 masak Web.pm week 13 progress post: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39475
17:42 jnthn yay a masakblog
17:43 masak those Web.pm posts seem to grow increasingly marathon-like. :/
17:45 jnthn he swears! he swears!
17:47 jnthn masak++ # awesome post
17:47 masak thank you. :) did I swear?
17:48 masak oh! I forgot a Lolcat bible quote! I had a feeling I had missed something! o_O
17:48 * masak runs to find one
17:48 jnthn Yes, you did, you cheating bastard. ;-0
17:49 jnthn oh noes! i needz mi kwote!
17:49 jnthn Especially as my alarm clock was in the wrong time zone and thus woke me up for church this morning an hour later than I needed to be up to make it...
17:53 masak I think I have a sufficiently pious quote, then.
17:53 tux_rocker joined #perl6
17:54 masak here, short but sweet: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39475
17:54 jnthn :-D
17:58 spinclad .oO{ but doznt kittehs haetz baffsez? }
18:00 shinobi-cl joined #perl6
18:03 masak spinclad: oh, so now you're going to try and find holes in the story? :)
18:03 kane_ joined #perl6
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18:11 * spinclad just doesn't get how john the bapstical d00d could ever have got popular with the galil kittehs back then.  i mean, we got josephus' word for it, but it seems pretty weird -- kittehs should have been avoid him in droves
18:11 spinclad gettin wet -- yukk!!1!
18:13 masak :)
18:13 masak times change, mores change.
18:14 spinclad .oO {U iz mai kittn. I lieks u an u iz so kyoot!} LOLOL
18:14 masak speaking of which, time to go hunt for food. &
18:15 simcop2387 joined #perl6
18:18 * jnthn is a little disturbed that masak relates kittens and food.
18:26 tux_rocker left #perl6
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18:32 moritz_ rakudo doesn't build with latest parrot
18:33 moritz_ because the Random PMC is gone
18:33 Matt-W doh
18:33 Matt-W that's slightly irritating
18:33 jnthn dukeleto++ was working on a fix, I'm not sure what its status is
18:33 jnthn Random PMC apparently got replaced by dynops.
18:34 jnthn But then there's some issue in that it seems said dynops were not getting installed.
18:36 moritz_ rakudo: say 1
18:36 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:36 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
18:36 Matt-W I do look forward to the day when we really do just track release parrots
18:39 * jnthn finds it slightly unfortunate that comment was made while he's currenlty listening to "The Day That Never Comes" by Metallica...
18:39 moritz_ even when we do, somebody has to use svn HEAD to make sure that we find such things
18:40 dukeleto dynops are not properly being installed by parrot
18:40 jnthn dukeleto: Ouch. Did adding to MANIFEST.generated not help?
18:40 moritz_ dukeleto: can we get that fixed for the release? if not I'd suggest to temporarily re-add the Random PMC
18:41 jnthn Really need to fix it for the release.
18:41 dukeleto jnthn: that is next on my list, but something more basic may need fixin' as well
18:41 moritz_ currently rakudo is hosed.
18:42 dukeleto https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/925 tracks this issue
18:47 moritz_ I bumped the priority to "critical", FWIW
18:47 moritz_ uhm, at least I tried :)
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19:16 pugs_svn r28005 | benmorrow++ | [Spec] Clarify behaviour of closure traits when an exception is thrown.
19:19 pugs_svn r28006 | benmorrow++ | [t/spec] Tests for r28005 (closure traits and exceptions).
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19:24 wolverian renormalist: hey, do you know why cperl-mode.el in util/ doesn't workforme on emacs 23? I get 'File mode specification error: (void-function compilation-build-compilation-error-regexp-alist)'
19:30 renormalist wolverian: I have seen such warnings too, but only in the last weeks, not sure yet
19:30 renormalist wolverian: I got it to work usually by rebooting emacs
19:37 wolverian renormalist: okay. another question. is it synced against the latest cperl-mode? (no idea if it's still developed, actually.)
19:39 wolverian renormalist: how do you load the file in .emacs? (load "...")? that *does* give me the same error.
19:39 renormalist no it is not synced, and I suspect that the version I used is not the greatest. Unfortunately, keeping it in sync is a real mess for several reasons, all leading to merging monster diffs
19:39 wolverian yeah, that's nasty.
19:39 renormalist current version I used is 5.20, current upstream is 5.23 I AFAIR
19:40 renormalist anyway, I had discussions on YAPC::EU that motivated me to restart it again, this time with a plan and some git help for maintaining Ilyaz' versions in branches, etc.
19:40 wolverian sounds great.
19:40 renormalist I load it via, erm, wait ....
19:41 wolverian my elisp-fu is really weak, but I suppose I should learn it.
19:43 lisppaste3 renormalist pasted "how I load cperl mode" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85487
19:44 renormalist I have never met someone yet, who had a chance in this particular elisp code
19:45 renormalist I had to converge everytime by starting with the low hanging fruits, then some cut'n'pate, and last some intuition
19:45 wolverian nope, that loading method gives the same error if I C-x C-f foo.pl
19:46 renormalist every time I think about it, like just now, I think it might be best to fork and refactor it, but then I would lose Ilyaz' stuff
19:46 renormalist hm, damn
19:46 wolverian GNU Emacs 23.1.50.1 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.16.1) of 2009-07-31 on lansones, modified by Debian
19:46 renormalist let me have a look, brb
19:46 wolverian thanks :) renormalist++
19:56 renormalist wolverian: damn, I'm soo behind, I just have 23.0.91.1, I try to get a newer emacs, it's for sure something there, and, waaah, cperl-mode upstream even made a jump from 5.x to 6.x,
19:56 * renormalist read the changelog there
19:58 wolverian renormalist: ouch.
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20:01 wolverian that was the wrong button.
20:08 pugs_svn r28007 | moritz++ | [irclog] use camelia as logo
20:17 moritz_ KyleHa++ # amazing test work over the weekend
20:21 dukeleto moritz_: i may have made progess on the dynop issue
20:22 tak11 joined #perl6
20:22 * dukeleto crosses fingers
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20:40 jnthn woo...new S26! :-)
20:40 dukeleto moritz: i think i got rakudo compiling against the latest parrot
20:40 dukeleto let see if any tests fail :)
20:43 * dukeleto does a dance for passing tests
20:43 moritz_ dukeleto++
20:46 lisppaste3 renormalist pasted "the important changelog in cperl-mode 5.24" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85489
20:47 renormalist wolverian: It's probably the fixes around those changelog entries, anyway I do not know which diff they mean
20:48 renormalist Syncing it will solve it probably, I will try to do it during the next days, not sure about my tuits ...
20:49 dukeleto moritz_: http://github.com/leto/rakudo/commit/92​56dae590a1f0e54139bdf34732d910c386f516
20:50 dukeleto moritz: that commit requires the latest parrot rev (r40598)
20:51 moritz_ dukeleto: I'll cherry-pick it and bump build/PARROT_REVISION accordingly
20:51 dukeleto moritz_: sweet!
20:52 wolverian renormalist: hm, okay. could just look at the current HEAD too for that particular issue.
20:55 moritz_ it builds...
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20:57 moritz_ dukeleto: when I run ./perl6 -e 'srand 0; say rand()' it gives me "Null PMC access in get_number()"
20:57 moritz_ in method Any::rand (src/gen_setting.pm:359)
20:57 dukeleto moritz: that sucks
20:57 moritz_ aye
20:57 dukeleto moritz: obviously you guys don't have a test for that :)
20:57 moritz_ dukeleto: did you run 'make spectest'?
20:57 dukeleto moritz: nope :(
20:57 moritz_ I'd be surprised if we had no tests at all
20:58 * dukeleto slaps self
20:58 renormalist wolverian: I will take the next minutes too try if I see some obvious diff...
20:58 moritz_ ah well, 'make test' only covers the *very* basics :)
20:59 dukeleto moritz: running make spectest now
21:00 moritz_ ah, there were some left-over accesses to '!random'
21:01 jnthn make test is what I use to know if I've *really* screwed up. ;-)
21:02 dukeleto heh, yeah, stuff is failing all over
21:03 melvoe joined #perl6
21:03 melvoe hi
21:03 moritz_ hi melvoe
21:03 melvoe would this be right "?:" or ":?"
21:04 moritz_ what are you talking about?
21:05 moritz_ dukeleto: ok, I have a fix, just running spectest before committing
21:05 dukeleto moritz: looks like I forgot to modify the method version of srand
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21:07 moritz_ dukeleto: I'll squash our commits to make it easier for bisecting
21:07 dukeleto moritz_: sounds good to me, I would like to take a look at what you did once you push
21:12 jnthn melvoe: In what context?
21:12 melvoe nay its fixed
21:13 melvoe thanks though
21:13 melvoe :LD
21:13 moritz_ ok, pushed. I didn't wait for all of spectest to finish, but rand.t and pick.t pass, which is a very good sign
21:13 moritz_ (the context was perl 5 regexes, it seems)
21:14 melvoe right
21:19 dalek rakudo: 5637208 | (Duke Leto)++ |  (4 files):
21:19 dalek rakudo: Convert any-num to the rand/srand dynops
21:19 dalek rakudo: The Random PMC was deprecated in Parrot 1.1 and is being removed as part
21:19 dalek rakudo: of 1.5 . This fixes the Rakudo build to use the dynamically loadable
21:19 dalek rakudo: math ops instead.
21:19 dalek rakudo: Plus changes by moritz:
21:19 dalek rakudo:  + bump build/PARROT_REVISION to r40598 where dynops installing is fixed
21:19 dalek rakudo:  + remove left-over usages of !random hll_global
21:19 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
21:19 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​6372080883f2204224912b4213b3a0383e0198e
21:19 dalek rakudo: 9959b21 | moritz++ | docs/ChangeLog:
21:19 dalek rakudo: [docs] mentioned installed parrot in ChangeLog
21:19 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9​959b217d1280246a0d18ee65615a5f737f04a45
21:20 dukeleto moritz++
21:20 moritz_ and dukeleto++ of course
21:20 dukeleto nice teamwork :)
21:20 jnthn moritz++ dukeleto++ # thanks! :-)
21:21 moritz_ indeed, some moaning, bitching and polishing by me, and the heavy lifiting by dukeleto++ ;-)
21:22 moritz_ now if only my svn worked again and I could publish my last blog post...
21:22 moritz_ (foreign adminstered servers)--
21:23 * Matt-W reads about the new S26 and boggles
21:23 Matt-W I really, really like some of this
21:23 Matt-W Damian++
21:24 moritz_ I didn't read through it yet...
21:25 moritz_ but I guess throwing away the limitation that POD must be parsable without a full Perl 6 grammar surely allows some cool stuff
21:26 jnthn moritz_: (foreign administered servers)-- indeed. In my experience, especially when managed by the oh so incompetent FastHosts from the UK. *sigh*
21:26 Matt-W I like the idea that you can write output modules which use the normal introspection tools to explore the class heirarchy, look at its associated documentation blocks and output a nice API reference
21:27 * jnthn lost his svn repos for a while thanks to them just before YAPC...and mail access too...
21:27 Matt-W hmm I've heard of FastHosts
21:27 Matt-W I'm... not with them
21:28 jnthn Matt-W: You anywhere good?
21:28 Matt-W got my own server
21:29 jnthn Ah, at home?
21:29 Matt-W no it's hosted in a data centre
21:29 Matt-W a group thing with some friends
21:29 jnthn Ah, OK.
21:29 jnthn Sounds nice.
21:30 Matt-W although I don't do email there now, too much pain
21:30 jnthn I kinda need something that is vaguely looked after.
21:30 Matt-W email is just vastly more complicated than anything ever has any need t obe
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21:34 renormalist wolverian: still awake? yould you please try the fix to cperl-mode that I will just commit in a minute? (I need to git svn rebase first ...) at least it doesnt break my 23.0.x, maybe it even fixes something with your 23.1.x ...
21:34 wolverian renormalist: yes.
21:34 * Matt-W -> bed &
21:35 shinobi-cl joined #perl6
21:37 shinobi-cl hi
21:38 shinobi-cl i keep thinking about a way to model 'materials'. in a thread i saw sometime ago, there was a discussion about it and they mentioned perl6 roles as a solution. but something bugs me a little
21:40 shinobi-cl for example. i want to model 'gold' and 'plastic', for example. and i might model gold as 'does valuable does conductor does maleable' but plastic could be 'does cheap does maleable'
21:42 shinobi-cl the thing is, 'cheap' and 'valuable' are essentially the same thing, but with different magnitudes. So, i wonder, how to face this issue?
21:43 shinobi-cl because it would be useful to ask 'is this material valuable?'
21:44 moritz_ if it's a gradual property (like cheap/valuable) don't make roles for it
21:45 moritz_ a simple attribute will do
21:45 shinobi-cl i could have a single role called price with a magnitude of 1 for plastic or 1000 for gold, but then, it would be the same role.
21:45 moritz_ that's the idea for gradual things
21:45 moritz_ just like you wouldn't want a separate variable for "cold" and "hot" temperatures
21:46 braceta left #perl6
21:46 pugs_svn r28008 | renormalist++ | cperl-mode.el: rx// global(ly)?
21:46 pugs_svn r28009 | renormalist++ | cperl-mode.el: cherry picked compilation-error-regexp-alist fix from 5.24
21:46 renormalist wolverian: now. r28009.
21:46 moritz_ shinobi-cl: and you can't meaningfully ask if something is valuable without specifying some kind of reference or context
21:47 shinobi-cl but for any property -lets talk now about electric conductivity- is also gradual. And certainly the behavoir should be different for conductor an not-conductor
21:47 moritz_ well, that depends on the abstraction level
21:48 shinobi-cl in the case i saw, it was 'what is the best material for building something'
21:48 moritz_ well, then an attribute 'price' would be helpful
21:49 moritz_ because then you can calculate the amount of material you need, multiply by price, and search for a minimum
21:50 moritz_ (and as a physicist I wouldn't give insulators, semiconductors and conductors different roles, just a property "conductivity", which might even by tunable)
21:51 shinobi-cl the idea is that the system offers you solutions based on the available materials. For example. If you want a 100 mts of conductor cable, you would be offered, for example, 1mt of gold cable, and 99 mts of copper, OR, 100 mts of copper cable. It was like, it offers you the best solution available based on stock.
21:52 samox joined #perl6
21:52 wolverian renormalist: works! thanks. :)
21:52 shinobi-cl mmm i see.. so, the roles wouldnt be of so mosh use in that case. Well, you should give an conductor role for every material, even if it has a factor of 1 conductivity or a factor of 1000
21:52 wolverian renormalist++
21:52 shinobi-cl s/mosh/much/
21:55 jnthn Parametric roles may just give you a nice way to make the declarations look pretty.
21:56 shinobi-cl or a way to use some alias for those parametric roles?
21:56 renormalist wolverian: ok, nice. thanks for trying this cperl-mode at all
21:56 renormalist wolverian++
21:56 wolverian renormalist: huh. now I have another problem. the cperl array face doesn't seem to update when I configure it from the customization interface.
21:56 wolverian it's pretty weird that it doesn't inherit the font-lock-variable-name-face at all, actually, by default
21:56 renormalist wolverian: what happens if you font-lock-fontify-buffer explicitely?
21:57 wolverian hrm, it works now that I restarted emacs.
21:57 wolverian I'll try that now if it still refuses to update.
21:57 shinobi-cl example not-conductor=role conductor with conduction property <=0.00001 conductor with conduction 0.00001<property<=0.75 and superconductor with conduction property<0.75
21:58 wolverian renormalist: nope, neither the .pl file or the customization buffer update with font-lock-fontify-buffer
21:58 moritz_ shinobi-cl: that's somewhat arbitrary - why make such distinctions at all?
21:58 renormalist did it work without the latest patch from 5min ago?
21:59 wolverian I hadn't tried.
22:00 jnthn shinobi-cl: Well, what you described for not-conductor there is more a subtype.
22:00 wolverian uhh. now it started to work normally.
22:00 renormalist generally I know of some highlighting issues with the 5.20 version that the pugs version is based on
22:00 wolverian after I had called font-lock-fontify-buffer
22:00 shinobi-cl so we can filter materials easily. just by askign if an ojbect supports some role.
22:00 renormalist I know that I have explicit colring of hash/array faces in my custom.el
22:00 jnthn You can do similar syntactically with subtypes too.
22:01 wolverian well, okay, it updated the "cperl nonoverridable face", but _not_ the hash face.
22:01 shinobi-cl oh. goit
22:01 wolverian restarting fixes it, again.
22:01 renormalist wolverian: I also have a key for font-lock-fontify-buffer to refresh some of the "artificialy lazy" highlighting issues
22:01 shinobi-cl got to go now... see ya
22:01 wolverian renormalist: right, but that doesn't help on my emacs for the hash and array faces.
22:02 moritz_ jnthn: akshually subset types are a very good idea here
22:03 moritz_ though I still don't know if all such tests should be made with types
22:03 jnthn Not all, no
22:03 moritz_ I mean types are great and all, but Perl 6 offers other mechanism too
22:03 lisppaste3 renormalist pasted "renormalist's cperl-array-face in custom.el" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85492
22:03 jnthn Well, a subset type really is just a way of giving a name to a bunch of requirements anyway. :-)
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22:04 moritz_ jnthn: now you sound just like TimToady ;-)
22:04 renormalist wolverian: I have the pasted lines in my .custom.el for maybe the same reason, I d only remember problems, not the details
22:05 wolverian yeah, that's probably the same reason.
22:05 renormalist wolverian: does it work "good enough" for now so that I can go to sleep? :-)
22:05 wolverian yes, it does. go to sleep. thanks. :)
22:05 renormalist :-) thanks
22:06 renormalist wolverian: feel free to email all problems you found, bugs will motivate me to restart the lost syncing
22:06 wolverian where to?
22:07 renormalist I already started some git housekeeping
22:07 renormalist wolverian: ss5@renormalist.net
22:07 wolverian thanks, will do
22:07 renormalist wolverian: ok, good night
22:10 pugs_svn r28010 | renormalist++ | cperl-mode.el: (hopefully) minor detail from cherry picking v5.24
22:18 mikehh rakudo (5637208) builds on parrot r40599 - make test/make spectest (up to 28009) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
22:31 moritz_ mikehh++
22:31 * moritz_ -> bed
22:31 mikehh nite moritz_
23:30 MoC` joined #perl6
23:32 _MoC_ joined #perl6
23:45 mikehh rakudo (5637208) builds on parrot r40601 - make test/make spectest (up to 28010) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc)
23:46 M_o_C joined #perl6

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