Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-08-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:14 pyrimidine jnthn: around?
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01:40 pyrimidine can we compose multiple traits into attributes yet with rakudo?
01:40 pyrimidine something like 'has $.foo is rw is aliased<bar>'
01:45 pyrimidine this popped up from looking at jonathan's example from his last post (maybe in response to takadonet's question a couple of days ago here)
01:45 pyrimidine http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-08-18#i_1403903
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01:56 missingthepoint morning #perl'ers :)
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02:05 pyrimidine missingthepoint: morning
02:07 missingthepoint morning. :)
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02:26 carlin how do I throw an exception?
02:30 carlin rakudo: sub a { return Exception; }; try { say a; CATCH { say 'foo'; } };
02:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
02:30 carlin ^ seg faults
02:30 carlin but I think that's wrong anyway
02:37 missingthepoint carlin: i think you just 'die'
02:38 missingthepoint rakudo: { die 'exception. :*(' CATCH { say "caught exception: $!" }}
02:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "CATCH { sa"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
02:38 missingthepoint oh hmm.
02:38 missingthepoint rakudo: do { die 'exception. :*(' CATCH { say "caught exception: $!" }}
02:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "CATCH { sa"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
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02:42 missingthepoint oh my goodness. i need caffeine. :O
02:42 missingthepoint rakudo: do { die 'exception. :*('; CATCH { say "caught exception: $!" }}
02:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«caught exception: exception. :*(␤exception. :*(␤in Main (/tmp/5wqVgzZrOz:2)␤»
02:44 missingthepoint that's probably more confusing (or just foolish) than helpful. :*(
02:45 missingthepoint FWIW, i was wondering the exact same thing the other day.
02:52 missingthepoint you might be right, but it might not be implemented in Rakudo.
02:58 missingthepoint but how would we know if it's not implemented? :/
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03:01 azawawi moritz_: ping
03:02 carlin rakudo: sub a { die 'test'; }; try { say a; CATCH { say 'foo'; } };
03:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«foo␤»
03:02 azawawi moritz_: Could you please add #padre @ irc.perl.org to http://irclog.perlgeek.de/  ?
03:02 carlin missingthepoint++ # thanks, die is right :)
03:04 carlin rakudo: say Exception;
03:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
03:04 carlin Hm, I wonder if that's known
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03:07 pyrimidine jnthn: nm, 'has Str $.description is rw is aliased<desc>;' works partially (desc is ro, description is rw). Just need to work out how to create the mutator for rw aliases.
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03:36 s1n is it still not possible to set environment variables (%*ENV) in rakudo yet?
03:45 pyrimidine joined #perl6
03:48 pyrimidine rakudo: %*ENV.keys.join(',').say
03:48 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«PERL6LIB,TERM,SHELL,USER,LD_LIBRARY_PATH,LS_COLORS,PATH,MAIL,PWD,EDITOR,LANG,HISTCONTROL,HOME,SHLVL,LOGNAME,LESSOPEN,LESSCLOSE,_␤»
03:52 pyrimidine s1n: just testing on p6eval and locally, doesn't look as if you can set %*ENV yet
03:53 pyrimidine rakudo: %*ENV<THIS_NEVER_EXISTS> = 123; say %*ENV<THIS_NEVER_EXISTS>
03:53 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
03:54 carlin rakudo: %*ENV = { 'a' => 'b' }; say %*ENV;
03:54 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«a  b␤»
03:55 missingthepoint is rakudo.org being updated?
03:56 missingthepoint (i can't load it.)
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04:10 pyrimidine missingthepoint: rakudo.org is working for me
04:13 missingthepoint pyrimidine: oh noes, teh DNS iz broked! :*(
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04:16 pyrimidine missingthepoint: THE DEE-ENN-ESS ES BORKEN, RUN FOR TEH HILLZ
04:22 missingthepoint actually, it's just "broked"... 'www.rakudo.org' works, but 'rakudo.org' doesn't. that's not so bad... unless the first page google results for 'rakudo' link to is 'rakudo.org'
04:30 pyrimidine missingthepoint: rakudo.org is working for me as well.  maybe someone is watching?
04:30 * pyrimidine queueing the spooky music...
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04:42 carlin rakudo: say $?LINE;
04:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Symbol '$?LINE' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/hJIrcUzgwq:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
04:42 carlin :(
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05:08 missingthepoint translate.google.com says someone is watching. ;)
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05:30 missingthepoint rakudo: use LWP::Simple; my $l = LWP::Simple.new; say ?($l.get('http://rakudo.org') ~~ /'Get Rakudo'/)
05:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Can't find ./LWP/Simple in @*INC␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:445)␤»
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08:01 jaffa8 hi
08:01 jaffa8 where can I see what tests have been passed?
08:02 moritz_ jaffa8: download rakudo, run 'make spectest' and see
08:03 jaffa8 ok
08:03 jaffa8 where can I download a pugs binary?
08:04 moritz_ I don't know of any up-to-date binaries
08:05 jaffa8 Can I see the pugs test results somewhere?
08:06 moritz_ it used to be smoke.pugscode.org. No idea if that still works.
08:10 jaffa8 it does not seem to.
08:10 carlin it doesn't, there is http://perlcabal.org/smoke.html but it's rather out of date
08:13 jaffa8 I guess rakudo inherited the test of pugs
08:16 jaffa8 Why was rakudo started?
08:17 jaffa8 What was not pugs continued?
08:24 moritz_ well, pugs is written in haskell, and most people in the perl community don't speak that all too well
08:24 moritz_ and it's not something you learn on a whim
08:26 carlin rakudo: say Exception;
08:26 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:26 carlin is that known?
08:27 moritz_ carlin: no; please report.
08:32 * carlin filed bug
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08:56 duke_leto I’ve been wondering: A year (or more) ago, I was really hot for perl 6, because it was going to have all those nifty UTF-8 operators like ¥ and ← and ⇒ and stuff… I’ve tried some of them and rakudo never liked it :-(
08:56 duke_leto Are they going to come or has that idea been dropped?
09:03 mberends duke_leto: the ability to define your own Unicode operators has now come :-)
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09:24 duke_leto mberends: :-) yay! That’s a step forwards ;-)
09:25 duke_leto Because I’d really love to read code like if $a ≤ $b {…}
09:31 duke_leto (and write it)
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09:41 masak o/
09:42 mberends o/ masak
09:43 mberends rakudo: sub infix:<≤>($a,$b){$a<=$b}; if 4 ≤ 5 { "lessorequal".say} # see duke_leto
09:43 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«lessorequal␤»
09:43 masak mberends: oh hai. whenever it's convenient for you, I'd like to pair up around proto, which has a number of pending refactors/fixes.
09:43 masak mberends: oh, and by the way, still enjoying your condiments on my bread. mberends++
09:44 mberends heh, well apart from unpredictable distractions, now would be good :)
09:45 masak I'm fairly available too. ok, here's the outline:
09:46 masak (1) the sources-as-classes refactor, (2) the independent-priority-graph refactor, (3) adapting proto for an installed Rakudo.
09:46 masak the two former I mentioned in a nice restaurant in Lisbon. the latter is perhaps the more urgent. anyone of these is up for grabs.
09:48 mberends I'm up for (3) first.
09:49 masak good. we should probably discuss that one a bit.
09:49 mberends (1) should be fairly simple, (2) depends on more abstraction redesign first
09:49 masak proto has never needed 'sudo' privs before. now that it does, I think that entails some other reconsideration.
09:49 masak maybe it's time to try that "central lib/" idea, for example...
09:51 masak the simplest thing that could possibly work with a central lib/ directory would be to have a directory somewhere, such as /usr/share/perl6-proto/lib (just a suggestion)
09:51 masak and then "install" the PIR files there -- or, if there is no make step, the .pm files.
09:52 masak slightly large rewrite, but it means our PERL6LIB worries are over, once and for all.
09:52 masak it also means people have to play nice(r) with module names.
09:53 mberends agreed. the dirname is a bikeshed topic, but we should try to avoid future upheavals
09:54 mberends later today japhb++ planned to discuss similar issues for Parrot modules
09:55 masak I threw in '-proto' in the dirname because I still consider proto to be a very unofficial, under-the-radar phenomenon. thus, it shouldn't take an "official" path like /usr/share/perl6/lib
09:56 mberends masak++: yes, that's fine, if people agree with the proto defaults down the line, we can remove 6 characters from the dirname easily
09:57 masak sure, but remember that this solution _cannot_ be the final solution.
09:57 masak it doesn't do authorities and version.
09:57 masak s/version/versions/
09:57 mberends that's what the database-y alternative plans to handle
09:58 masak aye.
09:59 masak but does that mean that up in the filesystem, one can only have one module of a given name installed?
09:59 mberends that's "the simplest thing that could possibly work" ;)
10:00 masak it is indeed.
10:00 masak let's do that now, too.
10:01 mberends putting :ver and :auth into the filesystem is a bad idea imho
10:01 masak hm, changing the installation path is a pretty large change to proto.
10:01 M_o_C Is it intended that the parrot sources must be located in <parrot path>/src? And does "sources", i. e. the parrot source directory as specified in the makefile, refer to the svn co of trunk or is this something else?
10:01 masak I was thinking first about upgrading the config file and making it backwards-compatible, but that feels like a lot of work, to be honest.
10:02 masak instead, I'll just let proto self-deprecate if it notices it has been upgraded but has an old config file.
10:02 masak I'll start with that commit.
10:03 mberends most other installers (including CPAN) do everything apart from the final install step without su privileges. proto should also work in stages, if possible. That's a considerable change.
10:04 masak I can see the need for that. how would it work in practice? invoking proto several times?
10:05 masak I think I would deplore that slightly.
10:06 jaffa8 Does anyone know about cabal install Pugs?
10:06 jaffa8 How should it work?
10:06 mberends masak: unfortunately, that's probably the common solution. OTOH, shelling to a 'sudo' might prompt for a password.
10:08 masak mberends: I'd be more comfortable with. "the module and all its dependencies have been built and tested. we're now ready to install" -- user gets put into a shell either inside or outside of proto, and is told what to write.
10:09 masak something in the order of 'sudo ./proto finish-install'
10:09 masak speaking of './proto', it's probably time to put proto in the path, too.
10:11 mberends M_o_C: yes, although Parrot experts can override numerous settings. The Rakudo Configure.pl finds out about your Parrot from <parrot>/bin/parrot_config
10:12 mberends masak: shell inside proto if possible, that way proto has a bit more control
10:12 masak good.
10:13 mberends masak: putting proto in the path will hinder its main design objective, which was to become obsolete ;)
10:14 masak perhaps a full-blown shell is overkill, though. perhaps it should be "do you want to install this module globally? (will require sudo password) [Y/n]"
10:14 * mberends likes that
10:14 masak mberends: true, and then the config file would have to go somewhere more global as well. so I'll stand down on that idea.
10:15 mberends are we ever going to port proto to Windows?
10:16 mberends jnthn++ was reading create_new_project recently and snickering
10:16 masak aye. I saw that.
10:16 masak things in proto are made on an as-needed basis. often the needs are mine.
10:17 mberends the simplest thing... is Unix-y right now
10:17 masak the Windows compat is no different -- if someone comes along and wants it badly enough, it'll happen.
10:17 M_o_C Thanks, mberends.
10:18 masak jaffa8: it's been a long time since I used 'cabal install Pugs', but I got it to work then. "how should it work?" is difficult to answer sensibly... it should install Pugs. it did for me, after some persuasion.
10:19 mberends masak: if we can count on $HOME existing, we can base proto's lib there
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10:19 masak instead of globally, you mean? yes, perhaps that's prederable.
10:19 jaffa8 masak, i am trying on windows
10:19 jaffa8 I get an error
10:19 masak jaffa8: oh, that might make things less... straightforward.
10:20 jaffa8 missing dependency on foreign librarz
10:20 masak jaffa8: that's pretty clear, at least.
10:20 mberends jaffa8: which library name?
10:20 masak jaffa8: your quest, should you choose to accept it, is to find and install this library.
10:20 jaffa8 perl5/p5embed.h
10:20 jaffa8 I set the include path
10:21 mberends jaffa8: that's from the Perl 5 source code
10:21 jaffa8 masak, I started that "quest
10:21 jaffa8 I found the files in the pug distribution
10:21 jaffa8 I set the path
10:21 jaffa8 cabal install Pugs --extra-lib-dirs=D:\standalone\pugs\src
10:22 jaffa8 but it has no effect
10:22 jnthn dobry den :-)
10:22 mberends jaffa8: have you tried also installing Strawberry Perl 5?
10:23 jaffa8 what for?
10:23 mberends jnthn: dobor dan :)
10:24 mberends jaffa8: I think Strawberry Perl includes the file you are lacking
10:24 masak jnthn: добрый день :)
10:25 Su-Shee joined #perl6
10:25 Su-Shee heyho.
10:25 jaffa8 jnthn, can you tell me how to install pugs?
10:26 jaffa8 mberends, I have the header file
10:26 mberends jaffa8: cool! one step closer...
10:28 jnthn jaffa8: No.
10:28 jaffa8 How come? You must have done many times
10:28 jnthn jaffa8: Not for (literally) years.
10:29 jaffa8 jnthn, do you have a version of pugs?
10:29 jnthn jaffa8: And even then I didn't install it; I built from source.
10:29 jnthn no, I use the evalbot here in channel if I want to check something
10:29 jaffa8 Does that use pugs?
10:30 mberends jaffa8: dunno if this helps, http://perl6.cz/wiki/Pugs_on_MS_Windows (it's old)
10:30 jnthn jaffa8: It can
10:30 jnthn pugs: say 42
10:30 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«42␤»
10:31 jnthn jaffa8: Normally I'm only interested in the output of Pugs in certain specific cases.
10:31 jaffa8 pugs:while ( $u ~~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:31 jaffa8 pugs:my $u;( $u ~~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:31 jaffa8 it is not working
10:32 jaffa8 pugs: y $u;( $u ~~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:32 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";("␤    expecting "::"␤    Variable "$u" requires predeclaration or explicit package name␤    at /tmp/xEydusvUpt line 1, column 5␤»
10:32 jaffa8 pugs: m $u;( $u ~~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:32 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "u"␤    expecting term postfix or operator␤    at /tmp/6j2JJ1gdAz line 1, column 9␤»
10:32 jaffa8 pugs: my u; if ($u ~~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:32 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected ";"␤    expecting word character, ":" or "("␤    at /tmp/dc0uhEgh98 line 1, column 5␤»
10:32 jaffa8 pugs: my $u; if ($u ~~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:32 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib';␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/third-party/Parse-Yapp/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime…
10:33 jaffa8 jnthn, Is this the most recent pugs?
10:33 mberends jaffa8: unless you have a good reason, rather use Rakudo
10:33 jaffa8 I have a good reason.
10:33 mberends ok�
10:34 jnthn jaffa8: Probably...remember Pugs hasn't really seen active development for a couple of years.
10:34 jaffa8 Is that supposed to be an error message?
10:35 jaffa8 pugs: my $u; if ($u =~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:35 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "m"␤    There is no =~ operator in Perl 6 -- did you mean ~~ (match) or ~= (concat-assign)?␤    at /tmp/pT9kJTEbZn line 1, column 18␤»
10:35 jaffa8 pugs: my $u; if ($u ~~ /a/ ) {}
10:35 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib';␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/third-party/Parse-Yapp/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime…
10:36 jaffa8 pugs: my $u; if ($u ~~ m/a/ ) {}
10:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib';␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/third-party/Parse-Yapp/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime…
10:36 jnthn jaffa8: I think it's just something broken in the regex handling.
10:36 mberends pugs: my $u = "yay"; if ($u ~~ m:p5/a/ ) { "matched".say }
10:36 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib';␤    unshift @INC, '/home/evalenv/pugs/third-party/Parse-Yapp/lib';␤    eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime…
10:37 carlin jaffa8: why do you need to use pugs instead of rakudo?
10:37 jaffa8 rakudo did not handle the perl6 statement I used
10:38 jaffa8 this-->>> my $u; if ($u =~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:38 masak jaffa8: it's ~~
10:38 jaffa8 even then
10:38 mberends rakudo: my $u = "yay"; if ($u ~~ m/a/ ) { "matched".say }
10:38 masak and it might work if you put the :p inside the //
10:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«matched␤»
10:38 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u; if ($u =~ m:p/a/ ) {}
10:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Colons cannot be used as delimiters in quoting constructs at line 2, near ":p/a/ ) {}"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
10:39 reqamst Is AUTOLOAD implemented currently?
10:39 masak jaffa8: you know, it occurs to me that it might be more effective to ask about such things here, rather than try a whole different implementation. :)
10:39 mberends the :p is the problem
10:39 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u; if ($u =~ /:p a/ ) {}
10:39 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
10:39 masak see? :)
10:40 jaffa8 Can some try this: my $u="�  a  a"; while ($u =~ /:p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:40 M_o_C rakudo: my $u; if ($u =~ :p/ a/ ) {}
10:40 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "/ ) {}"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
10:40 jaffa8 Can some try this: my $u="�  a  a"; while ($u ~~ /:p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:41 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u="�  a  a"; while ($u ~~ /:p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got
10:41 p6eval ..got go…
10:41 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u="�  a  a"; while ($u ~~ m:g /:p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Colons cannot be used as delimiters in quoting constructs at line 2, near ":g /:p a/ "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
10:42 masak jaffa8: I'm sorry, you have a strange byte in your $u string.
10:42 masak neither my client nor the IRC logs can see what it is.
10:42 jaffa8 How would you parse a string for matches repeatedly?
10:42 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u="a  a  a"; while ($u ~~ m:g /:p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Colons cannot be used as delimiters in quoting constructs at line 2, near ":g /:p a/ "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
10:42 masak jaffa8: I think I'd just use .comb
10:43 jaffa8 what is .comb?
10:43 masak rakudo: say "foo foooo foooo fo".comb(/fo+/).perl
10:43 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«["foo", "foooo", "foooo", "fo"]␤»
10:43 masak that's .comb
10:44 masak S32/Str contains the details.
10:44 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u="a  a  a"; while ($u ~~ m:g /:g :p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:44 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Colons cannot be used as delimiters in quoting constructs at line 2, near ":g /:g :p "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
10:44 jaffa8 rakudo: my $u="a  a  a"; while ($u ~~ /:g :p a/ ) {print "got "}
10:44 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got got
10:44 p6eval ..got go…
10:44 jaffa8 masak,ok
10:44 jaffa8 it is quite a weird name
10:44 masak jaffa8: my approach has the advantage of actually working. :)
10:44 M_o_C Is there a difference between http://perlcabal.org/syn/ and http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/?
10:44 jaffa8 it does not remind me of anything
10:45 masak jaffa8: no, 'comb' is a verb meaning 'pick out the things you're interested in'.
10:45 masak it's the figure-ground opposite of 'split'.
10:46 jaffa8 what is that .perl at the end?
10:47 mberends jaffa8: it's a built in Data::Dumper
10:47 carlin M_o_C: No, http://feather.perl6.nl/ and http://perlcabal.org/ look like they're just different domains pointed to the same server
10:47 * jnthn -> bbq, bakc later
10:48 M_o_C Ok, thanks
10:48 jaffa8 ok
10:50 jaffa8 rakudo: say "foo foooo foooo fo".comb(/(f)o+/).perl
10:50 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«[Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this is not working perl code␤ # and for debugging purposes only␤ ast  => "foo",␤ Str => "foo",␤ from => 0,␤ to   => 3,␤ positional => [␤  Match.new(␤    ast  => "f",␤    Str => "f",␤    from => 0,␤    to   => 1,␤   ),␤ ],␤), Match.new(␤ # WARNING: this
10:50 p6eval ..is n…
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10:51 mberends jaffa8: don't worry about the warning, .perl for pattern matches is under construction
10:52 jaffa8 I wonder if I use brackets, then how do I get the value of those?
10:52 jaffa8 in comb?
10:54 mberends rakudo: "foo foooo foooo fo" ~~ /(f)o+/; say $/[0]
10:55 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«f␤»
10:56 jaffa8 rakudo: "foo foooo foooo fo" ~~ /(f)o+/; say $/[1]
10:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
10:56 mberends rakudo: "foo foooo foooo fo" ~~ /(fo+)o/; say $/[0]; say $/[1]
10:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«fo␤Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
10:59 reqamst rakudo: my num $number
10:59 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "num $numbe"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
10:59 reqamst Why I can't use native types? Is it a bug?
11:00 carlin rakudo: my Num $number;
11:00 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
11:00 reqamst yes, there is no problem with immutable types
11:01 mberends reqamst: native types are not yet implemented
11:02 reqamst mberends: I see, thanks.
11:04 reqamst gdzie ten TBH?
11:04 reqamst oops, wrong channel
11:06 masak Polish, right?
11:07 reqamst right
11:07 masak mberends: I just pushed a deprecation message for proto. could you run it and see that it works?
11:07 masak (at present, if you follow the instructions, you'll just get the deprecation message again. but that's next on the agenda.)
11:09 rafl joined #perl6
11:09 masak & # hunting for food
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11:14 azawawi moritz_: Thanks a lot for adding it. That really help with searching IRC logs. cool :)
11:15 azawawi moritz_: s/help/helps
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11:24 M_o_C Win32 Problem: I have a SVN CO in .\Parrot\src and Parrot is installed in .\Parrot. Rakudo git-clone resides in .\rakudo-git-clone. When I try to mingw32-make Rakudo I get the following error:
11:26 lisppaste3 MoC pasted "Win32 make fails" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85891
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11:49 DarkWolf84 hi all
11:49 DarkWolf84 :)
11:49 masak DarkWolf84: o/
11:50 DarkWolf84 I have strange problem with installed rakudo and unicode
11:50 masak let's hear it.
11:52 DarkWolf84 when i try to print some unicode chars it writes a jubberish
11:52 moritz_ M_o_C: did you do a 'make install-dev' in parrot?
11:52 DarkWolf84 like
11:52 DarkWolf84 no
11:53 hanekomu joined #perl6
11:53 masak rakudo: say 'ʀɐƙʊðɵ'
11:53 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ʀɐƙʊðɵ␤»
11:53 moritz_ DarkWolf84: rakudo does input and output in UTF-8. If you use a diferent character encoding on your console you'll only see rubbish
11:53 masak works here.
11:53 DarkWolf84 yeah
11:53 DarkWolf84 rakudo: say "�������"
11:53 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«�������␤»
11:54 masak DarkWolf84: what you entered there was not UTF-8.
11:54 M_o_C Ah, there's the problem, I only did make install. Thanks moritz_
11:54 DarkWolf84 strange
11:54 masak DarkWolf84: it might have been some latin-* encoding, perhaps.
11:54 DarkWolf84 why is that
11:55 masak DarkWolf84: here on IRC, it's probably because of the way your IRC client is set up.
11:56 masak for the Rakudo execution, it's probably the way your shell or your filesystem is set up.
11:56 DarkWolf84 i have to check the web logs
11:56 masak s/filesystem/editor/
11:56 DarkWolf84 my client should use utf8
11:57 phenny joined #perl6
11:59 masak phenny: welcome back.
11:59 phenny masak: 22 Aug 19:32Z <s1n> tell masak i noticed there was no longer a Web.pm. am i mistaken or is that an ironic name for the project now
11:59 phenny masak: 22 Aug 19:36Z <s1n> tell masak LolDispatch doesn't compile, rakudo thinks it's missing an =end, might be bug worthy
11:59 phenny masak: 22 Aug 23:33Z <s1n> tell masak i can't seem to clone november, it keeps timing out... any idea what's up with that?
12:00 masak phenny: tell s1n not an ironic name. but I wouldn't say that the use case is very clear either right now. Web.pm is a set of modules at different levels. maybe it'll make sense to load them through 'use Web;' at the top, maybe not.
12:00 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when s1n is around.
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12:02 DarkWolf84 rakudo: say "Здрасти"
12:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Здрасти␤»
12:02 DarkWolf84 works
12:03 masak aye, much better.
12:03 DarkWolf84 that was "hi" in Bulgarian :)
12:04 masak ah, pretty similar to Russian, then.
12:04 DarkWolf84 yeah
12:04 masak is there a singular and a plural form, as in Russian?
12:04 masak phenny: tell s1n cloning from git://github.com/viklund/november.git works fine here.
12:04 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when s1n is around.
12:04 DarkWolf84 yeah
12:05 DarkWolf84 most of the plural forms in Russian end with и
12:06 masak да.
12:06 DarkWolf84 in Bulgarian too
12:07 masak like пироги.
12:07 DarkWolf84 да
12:10 DarkWolf84 is the evalbot here installed or just from source dir
12:11 DarkWolf84 i tried perl6 in the rakudo source dir and utf8 works
12:11 DarkWolf84 but installed version is not
12:12 masak that's pretty interesting.
12:13 masak I could imagine that the evalbot runs Rakudo in the current directory.
12:14 DarkWolf84 maybe that is related to icu linking
12:15 moritz_ masak: it does not
12:15 moritz_ masak: it installs rakudo
12:15 masak I sit corrected.
12:15 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><prefix>
12:16 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«/home/evalenv/p2␤»
12:18 DarkWolf84 ok I'll make it again
12:23 DarkWolf84 is something needed for the parrot lib directory
12:23 moritz_ disc space
12:23 moritz_ or what do you mean?
12:24 DarkWolf84 like ld path
12:24 DarkWolf84 or something like that
12:24 moritz_ if libicu is installed normally on your system everything should be fine.
12:24 DarkWolf84 ok
12:25 * moritz_ tried to visualize object creation and initialization in Perl 6:  http://moritz.faui2k3.org/files/build.svg
12:31 masak moritz_: nice.
12:31 moritz_ masak: thanks
12:31 * moritz_ is quite fond of SVG these days...
12:31 * masak too
12:33 mberends moritz_++
12:33 phenny mberends: 22 Aug 16:11Z <masak> tell mberends TimToady would like you to rewrite create-new-project in TECO for greater platform independence...
12:34 moritz_ TECO?
12:34 duke_leto left #perl6
12:34 mberends :) pull the other one, it haz bells on
12:34 masak moritz_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector
12:37 mberends "TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise" sounds familiar ;)
12:40 masak $TECO is readonly
12:40 DarkWolf84 oh I got it it is the interactive shell
12:41 DarkWolf84 oneliners write corect utf8 and the normal programs
12:42 masak DarkWolf84: I can confirm that.
12:43 * moritz_ too
12:43 moritz_ DarkWolf84: would you please submit a bug report to rakudobug@perl.org?
12:45 mberends masak: proto's deprecation notice is a good start. It would be nice to save the list of existing projects somewhere, because once we move to a different base dir we cannot expect to find the old projects any more.
12:46 masak nod.
12:47 mberends perhaps just keep the old basedir in the proto config file
12:47 jaffa8 hi, the rakudo does not give good error messages
12:47 moritz_ jaffa8: in what cases?
12:47 masak another thought I had: if we put proto itself through it installation process, it would be antisocial to keep the module names Installer and Ecosystem. they would have to be renamed to App::Proto::Installer and Perl6::Ecosystem, or the like.
12:47 jaffa8 for bad regular expression
12:47 jaffa8 it does not give a line number
12:48 moritz_ rakudo: /,/
12:48 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Syntax error at line 2, near "/,/"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
12:48 moritz_ well, in this case it gives a line number.
12:48 masak mberends: yes, keeping the old basedir is fine, but I think I plan to remove all PERL6LIB handling for those...
12:48 jaffa8 rakudo: while ( $filenamelist =~ /\G(.+?),|\G(.+)/g ) {}
12:48 DarkWolf84 masak, I'll try but I've never pasted bug before
12:48 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Alphanumeric metacharacters are reserved at offset 38, found '('␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
12:48 moritz_ oh.
12:48 jaffa8 here you are
12:48 masak DarkWolf84: you meant moritz_. :) it's not that hard.
12:48 DarkWolf84 I'm not shure what to do
12:48 DarkWolf84 ok
12:48 moritz_ jaffa8: care to submit a bug report?
12:49 masak DarkWolf84: paste enough information to reproduce the problem.
12:49 DarkWolf84 ok
12:49 jaffa8 where is it?
12:49 moritz_ jaffa8: just write an email to rakudobug@perl.org includiing this example and the complaint that it gives no line number.
12:49 DarkWolf84 ok
12:49 DarkWolf84 I'll do it
12:51 masak DarkWolf84++
12:51 jaffa8 I have done it
12:53 mberends masak: yes, the old basedir must not exist in PERL6LIB. Would you be happy to ask the user for permission to wipe the old config.proto and automatically create a new one?
12:53 masak jaffa8++
12:54 moritz_ do you really have enough users alreay to care about migration/backward compatibility?
12:54 masak mberends: that's even better. we'll go with that.
12:54 mberends @karma jaffa8
12:54 lambdabot jaffa8 has a karma of 1
12:54 masak moritz_: (1) yes, (2) what we're doing is the next simplest thing from not caring at all.
12:55 moritz_ masak: ok
12:55 moritz_ masak: do you happen to know how many users you have, roughly?
12:55 masak if the user upgrades, she will need a new version of the config file anyhow.
12:55 mberends moritz_: all of Austria for starters
12:55 masak moritz_: that's hard to tell. we don't phone home or anything.
12:55 moritz_ mberends: oh, I forgot :)
12:56 masak moritz_: but I'm sometimes pleasantly surprised at seeing projects created by mberends' script.
12:56 masak so people seem to tend to use it.
12:56 masak & # commuting
12:57 mberends the main reason proto doesn't phone home is the hardware and bandwidth it would cost us
12:57 moritz_ ;-)
13:00 DarkWolf84 oops
13:01 DarkWolf84 i've pasted the bug too
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13:09 jaffa8 I have this in my code
13:09 jaffa8 print <<eof;
13:10 jaffa8 What can I use in Perl 6?
13:22 masak joined #perl6
13:25 colomon jaffa8: that's not implemented in Rakudo yet.
13:26 mberends jaffa8: print "
13:26 mberends jaffa8:  hello
13:26 mberends jaffa8: "; # multiline string
13:28 pmichaud there's also:
13:28 pmichaud print qq{
13:28 pmichaud hello
13:28 pmichaud };
13:29 jaffa8 ok
13:29 mberends hi ^
13:29 pmichaud (good morning, #perl6)
13:29 mberends oops hi pmichaud
13:29 jaffa8 rakudo: $b=qq<wewewewe>;
13:29 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Symbol '$b' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/Cx4nd5be0U:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
13:30 jaffa8 rakudo: my $b=qq<wewewewe>;
13:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
13:30 jaffa8 where can I get and std parser?
13:31 pmichaud if you want to build the std parser for yourself, it's in the pugs repository
13:31 pmichaud if you just want something online, use  "std: " on this channel
13:31 pmichaud std:  my $b=qq<wewewewe>;
13:31 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 39m␤»
13:32 pmichaud see also perl6-projects.org for links to the std parser
13:32 s1n morning all
13:32 phenny s1n: 12:00Z <masak> tell s1n not an ironic name. but I wouldn't say that the use case is very clear either right now. Web.pm is a set of modules at different levels. maybe it'll make sense to load them through 'use Web;' at the top, maybe not.
13:32 phenny s1n: 12:04Z <masak> tell s1n cloning from git://github.com/viklund/november.git works fine here.
13:35 masak s1n: the 'Web.pm' brand is important, but I don't know yet whether it'll be part of use statements. it's first and foremost a social project, an incubator for web projects that we need. I'm pretty sure that the MVC framework will not be called 'Web'. that's why I removed those stubbed module files.
13:36 masak mornin', pmichaud.
13:36 s1n masak: it's gathered attention as Web.pm, not Web, you've built a brand around a non-existant module...
13:36 s1n masak: i understand where you're coming from, but newcomers wishing to use it may not
13:37 masak s1n: that's a valid point.
13:37 masak s1n: if there's a simple mechanism by which Web.pm can pull in those other 'endorsed' modules, I think that'd be a good use for it.
13:37 s1n pmichaud: do hll_globals have any mechanism for callback when being assigned? i want to perform an action in C/PIR when one is set
13:40 s1n masak: sure, it doesn't sound like an easy fix, but you should look into it, i was rather surprised to see there was no Web.pm, maybe rebuild the brand or come up with a sort of component loading module named Web.pm...
13:40 masak s1n: it could be an easy fix. I'm sure it'll come back before week 20.
13:40 mberends pmichaud: after using rakudo/tools/test_summary.pl rather a lot, there seems little reason for both 'test' and 'plan' counts per script, so I've posted a deprecation notice on line 132. Do you sometimes need the separate figures or can one be dropped, and if so, when?
13:41 s1n masak: okay, it's your project, i just wanted to give you an outsider's perspective
13:41 masak s1n: much appreciated. thanks.
13:42 pmichaud mberends: looking
13:43 mberends pmichaud: the polite timing would be after the September release
13:44 mberends btw, the planless testing discussed recently would wreck our spectest statistics :-(
13:45 moritz_ mberends: I know, which is why I use it only sparingly
13:45 pmichaud mberends: all that I really need/use personally at the moment are the statistics at the end
13:46 mberends ok, I reformatted them a little as well for you :)
13:46 braceta joined #perl6
13:47 masak I've come to really like planless testing. but I see the argument for not using it in the Perl 6 spectests.
13:49 icwiener joined #perl6
13:50 pmichaud mberends:  I'll run my daily tests with the revised test-summary.pl script and can give better feedback then
13:50 pmichaud (running them now, will take an hour or two)
13:50 mberends the 'test' column can be dropped because (1) it's the sum of several other columns (2) it should match 'plan' (3) it doesn't occur in the subtotals at the end
13:50 pmichaud I think I'm fine with dropping the 'test' column, yes.
13:50 pmichaud we can go ahead and do that now, and if it's a problem for someone we'll put it back
13:50 pmichaud (or come up with some other answer)
13:51 mberends pmichaud++
13:53 moritz_ as long as the format of spectest-progress.csv doesn't change I'm fine with that
13:53 mberends moritz_: yes, that's staying the same
13:58 pmichaud afk # one last trip to the airport
14:00 jaffa8 rakudo: ">${filename}.dbg"
14:00 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Can't use $ as non-variable in interpolated string at line 2, near "${filename"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
14:00 jaffa8 std: ">${filename}.dbg"
14:01 p6eval std 28050:  ( no output )
14:01 jaffa8 how would you do this in rakudo: "${fn}"?
14:02 masak rakudoÖ sub foo { "OH HAI" }; say "like this: {foo}"
14:02 masak rakudo: sub foo { "OH HAI" }; say "like this: {foo}"
14:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«like this: OH HAI␤»
14:03 jaffa8 I mean a variable
14:03 jaffa8 how would you do this in rakudo: "${thisisavar}thisisnotavariablename"?
14:04 masak rakudo: my $variable = "OH HAI"; say "{$variable}likethis"
14:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«OH HAIlikethis␤»
14:04 masak rakudo: class Austria { BEGIN { say self } }
14:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Lexical 'self' not found␤»
14:04 masak pmichaud: do you know if this has been ticketed?
14:10 nihiliad joined #perl6
14:12 jaffa8 std: if ( $l ~~ /^(.+?);(.+?);(.+?);(.+?)(?=\s)/ ) {}
14:12 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Semicolon must be quoted at /tmp/0GlqyoJKBH line 1:␤------> [32mif ( $l ~~ /^(.+?);[33m⏏[31m(.+?);(.+?);(.+?)(?=\s)/ ) {}[0m␤Other potential difficulties:␤  Variable $l is not predeclared at /tmp/0GlqyoJKBH line 1:␤------> [32mif ( $l[33m⏏[31m
14:12 p6eval ..…
14:17 masak jaffa8: so, the rule is: if it's an alphanumeric, you don't need to escape of quote it. if it's not, you do. (if you mean it literally and not as an operator)
14:18 jaffa8 ok, $1 is $0 no
14:18 jaffa8 w
14:19 masak aye.
14:19 masak ok, my latest Rakudo doesn't build.
14:20 masak p6opaque.c:275: error: 'struct PMC' has no member named 'pmc_ext'
14:21 masak no activity today 'sides mberends++' patch, so it's probably something Parrot did.
14:23 jaffa8 How would you do something like this?
14:23 jaffa8 push @{ $table{ lc "$1.$2" } }, lc $3;
14:23 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/object-construction-and-initialization.html there you go, corrections very welcome
14:23 moritz_ jaffa8: %table{ lc "$0.$1" }.push: lc $2;
14:24 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><revision>
14:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«40556␤»
14:24 jaffa8 rakudo: %table{ lc "$0.$1" }.push: lc $2;
14:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Symbol '%table' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/d85m6y719M:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
14:24 masak rakudo: my %table = "foo.bar" => []; "foo bar baz" ~~ / (\w+) \s* (\w+) \s* (\w+) /; %table{ lc "$0.$1" }.push: lc $2; say %table.perl
14:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«{"foo.bar" => ["baz"]}␤»
14:25 jaffa8 moritz_, Did you use :
14:25 jaffa8 rakudo: %table{ lc "$0.$1" }.push(lc $2);
14:25 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Symbol '%table' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/VkUhvxwpad:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3390)␤»
14:25 moritz_ jaffa8: you have to declare variables with 'my' before you can use them.
14:25 moritz_ like masak++ did
14:25 jaffa8 that I understand
14:25 jaffa8 What about >>:<<?
14:26 moritz_ that's a syntax for a method call
14:26 moritz_ $foo.method: a, b, c
14:26 masak 'invocant colon'
14:26 moritz_ is the same as $foo.method(a, b, c)
14:26 jaffa8 you mean this is alternative syntax
14:26 moritz_ yes
14:27 masak artificial sweetener.
14:27 jaffa8 funny
14:27 moritz_ convenient.
14:27 Psyche^ joined #perl6
14:27 masak unnecessary.
14:27 moritz_ like perl ;-)
14:27 jaffa8 faster
14:27 masak error-prone.
14:28 moritz_ don't we all love listops? ;-)
14:28 masak no.
14:28 jaffa8 Why is it error-prone?
14:28 carlin masak: rakudo builds alright for me after git pull and svn up'ing parrot
14:28 masak jaffa8: I guess it's a matter of taste, but I find the parentheses clearer.
14:28 masak carlin: that's interesting.
14:28 * moritz_ tries
14:30 masak carlin: I did realclean on Parrot, and install-dev. then I did make clean on Rakudo and tried to build it. did you do the same?
14:30 moritz_ p6opaque.c: In function ‘Parrot_P6opaque_clone’:
14:30 moritz_ p6opaque.c:275: error: ‘PMC’ has no member named ‘pmc_ext’
14:30 moritz_ that's what I get with latest rakudo+parrot
14:30 jaffa8 �s it possible to change the character set of the source?
14:31 jaffa8 What if I do not want utf8?
14:32 masak moritz_: yup, same as mine.
14:33 masak jaffa8: Rakudo is a bit weak on encodings at present. it's one of the things being worked on. contributions are welcome.
14:34 moritz_ jaffa8: implementations should auto-detect character encodings on their BOM if present. In other cases you have to pass an option to the compiler
14:34 moritz_ something like perl6 --encoding=UTF-16 script.pl
14:34 moritz_ don't know what the exact syntax is, but it's not yet supported
14:35 japhb urgle.  The problem with having kids on a school day schedule is that they stay on it on the weekends, even when you need more sleep ....
14:36 moritz_ ouch.
14:36 moritz_ japhb: I think it was you who asked about the various object initialization methods in Perl 6. I wrote something up here: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/object-construction-and-initialization.html
14:37 carlin after make realclean on parrot it still wfm ... so I must be doing something different
14:37 carlin or wrong
14:37 mberends moritz_++: nice article. spello: initiliaztions
14:38 jaffa8 what is this in Perl 6: $l = <dic>?
14:38 japhb moritz_, Ah, thank you.  I'll look at that in a bit, as soon as I start some rebuilds.
14:38 mberends jaffa8: <a b c> is the new qw{a b c}
14:39 jaffa8 Is it now readline?
14:39 moritz_ japhb: thanks
14:39 jaffa8 Is qw throuwn out?
14:40 moritz_ it's spelled <...> now
14:40 mberends jaffa8: it's quote words. yes, afair qw{} is gone.
14:40 moritz_ of or q:w{...}
14:40 moritz_ which can be shortened to qw{...} I think
14:40 moritz_ std: qw{a b}
14:40 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 37m␤»
14:40 moritz_ yes
14:41 mberends timtowtdi
14:41 jaffa8 std: print qw{a b}
14:41 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
14:41 DarkWolf84 I made a executable with pbc_to_exe but it ends with "Class '[ 'parrot' ; 'Perl6MultiSub' ]' not found"
14:41 moritz_ but notice that you can't use qw() with round parenthesis, that's a sub call
14:41 japhb So what's the canonical Parrot / Rakudo build sequence now that the "builds against installed Parrot" thing happened?  I'm guessing 'cd <parrot_build_dir>; perl Configure.pl; make install; cd <rakudo_build_dir>; perl Configure.pl; make install'?
14:41 moritz_ japhb: you're missing 'make install-dev' for parrot
14:41 japhb moritz_, instead of or in addition to 'make install' for parrot?
14:41 moritz_ japhb: in addition
14:42 mberends japhb: and Rakudo's Configure.pl needs --parrot-config=
14:42 japhb moritz_, ah, so install-dev adds additional files needed for building things?
14:42 mberends japhb: right
14:42 moritz_ japhb: yes
14:43 moritz_ mberends: unless it's installed in rakudo/parrot_install/, which is the default invocation with --gen-parrot
14:43 japhb mberends, --parrot-config= what?  Directory of parrot install, or path to config binary?
14:43 mberends the binary
14:43 japhb mberends, OK, got it.
14:43 jaffa8 is pbc to exe reliable?
14:44 japhb .oO( Why would anyone install parrot except to build stuff on it? )
14:44 moritz_ DarkWolf84: did you install rakudo? ('make install')
14:44 * japhb goes to look at install-dev target
14:44 mberends jaffa8: for making perl6.exe, definitely. for other programs ymmv.
14:45 DarkWolf84 yeah
14:45 jaffa8 ymmv?
14:45 japhb Your Mileage May Vary
14:45 DarkWolf84 but it instals in ./parrot_install
14:46 mberends jaffa8: your success will depend on many other things :)
14:46 jaffa8 SUch as?
14:46 jaffa8 luck?
14:46 jaffa8 What are the known problems?
14:47 mberends jaffa8: there are other ways to make .pbc files, and depending on what goes into them, the result may either work or fail
14:48 jaffa8 that sound pretty cryptic to me.
14:48 jaffa8 What are other ways?
14:48 jaffa8 Hex editor
14:48 jaffa8 ?
14:48 jaffa8 I guess everybody uses parrot.exe to make pbc fies.
14:49 DanielC joined #perl6
14:50 mberends jaffa8: there are lots of examples of .pir source programs that your could compile to .pbc and maybe to .exe
14:50 mberends in the parrot source tree
14:51 jaffa8 How can one deploy files?
14:51 jaffa8 IS there program for that?
14:51 mberends ouch, we're struggling to make that still
14:52 mberends proto (being discussed today) is an early attempt, there are other projects being worked on.
14:52 japhb proto had discussions earlier today?  What time frame?
14:52 japhb I'm working on the parrot module ecosystem today, in fact.
14:53 mberends http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-08-23#i_1420618
14:53 jaffa8 how many files are needed for a simple deployment?
14:53 jaffa8 E.g. hello world
14:54 jaffa8 I guess parrot exe and lib are needed.
14:54 japhb mberends, excellent, thank you
14:54 mberends japhb: I like your plan so far
14:54 * japhb prepares to eat proto's brains
14:55 japhb mberends, you mean https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ModuleEcosystem ?
14:55 mberends japhb++: yes
14:55 japhb mberends, ah, thank you!
14:56 mberends jaffa8:
14:56 mberends jaffa8: yes, and the perl6 executable
15:02 jaffa8 Has anyone seen this:  Pugs can compile Perl 6 programs into Perl 5 source code
15:02 jaffa8 http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:-mnYwDXc8UoJ:www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi%3Ffud+perl+5+perl+6+conversion+table&amp;cd=5&amp;hl=hu&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=hu
15:06 mberends japhb: this project may overlap a small part or yours, for the Rakudo case only: http://gitorious.org/parrot-module-lib/main/blobs/master/ROADMAP
15:06 mberends *of yours
15:07 japhb mberends, reading ....
15:09 japhb mberends, ooh, yeah, all of that looks useful.
15:09 * japhb adds parrot-module-lib to the @eat-these-brains
15:10 carlin freshly cloned rakudo, I ran Configure --gen-parrot, make clean, cd to parrot, make realclean, svn up, Configure, make install-dev, cd to rakudo, Configure, make install. Did I miss anything?
15:20 masak carlin: no, it all looks good. I'm running Rakudo-in-Parrot, though. but that shouldn't make a difference.
15:21 carlin builds fine :s
15:23 molaf joined #perl6
15:27 jnthn oh hai
15:27 masak yayitsjnthn
15:27 jnthn japhb: I'm around for the rest of my $day
15:27 jnthn yayitsmasak!
15:27 jnthn masak: What's cooking today?
15:27 justatheory joined #perl6
15:27 japhb jnthn, Great!  How long will that last?  :-)
15:27 japhb (timezones are one thing, sleeping schedules another ...)
15:28 jnthn japhb: Well, I got up quite early-ish today, but I reckon there's a good 6-7 hours yet. :-)
15:29 simcop2387 joined #perl6
15:29 japhb jnthn, :-)
15:31 jnthn masak: Is the build fail with latest Parrot rather than recommended one?
15:32 Su-Shee is poll and select already implemented?
15:32 masak jnthn: yes. some parrot after 40719 breaks Rakudo.
15:33 masak carlin: ah, and that explains why it runs for you. of course... :/
15:34 jnthn Parrot is really good at breaking the Rakudo build these days.
15:34 jnthn In fact, it's really excelled at it since the last release.
15:34 masak it doesn't bother me much, as long as there's not a recent feature/fix I really need.
15:35 jnthn masak: Sure, but really best is to build the Parrot that Rakudo says it needs.
15:35 masak jnthn: I'm sure it is. I just like it this way. :)
15:35 masak I'm usually among the first to spot this type of error.
15:38 jnthn Aye.
15:38 mberends Su-Shee: no select: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-08-10#i_1379225
15:39 Su-Shee just found another interesting posting on the subject...
15:39 Su-Shee http://perl-yarg.blogspot.com/2009/08/working-with-rakudo-and-parrot.html
15:39 Su-Shee ah. which is the same fellow. :)
15:44 rindolf joined #perl6
15:44 rindolf Hi all.
15:44 rindolf Su-Shee: here?
15:45 Su-Shee yes.
15:45 rindolf Su-Shee: hi.
15:45 rindolf Su-Shee: what's up?
15:45 rindolf Su-Shee: BTW, why aren't you present on #perl no longer?
15:46 Su-Shee rindolf: it's a little too much alphamale-ing sometimes, so I take a break. ;)
15:46 rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
15:47 Su-Shee rindolf: just tested a teenytiny blog engine based on mojo, very nice.
15:48 DarkWolf84 what i need to use executable generated from pbc_to_exe
15:50 jaffa8 std:/^-h|--help$/
15:51 jaffa8 std: /^-h|--help$/
15:51 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find final '/' at /tmp/ZbKfXvUEHo line 1:␤------> [32m/^[33m⏏[31m-h|--help$/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      infix stopper␤    quantifier␤       regex atom␤     regex_infix␤      standard stopper␤   terminator␤
15:51 p6eval ..ws␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
15:51 jaffa8 std: /^\-h|\-\-help$/
15:51 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
15:52 * sri_kraih really hopes rakudo star will have async io
15:53 rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
15:53 rindolf Su-Shee: does it have comments?
15:53 rindolf Su-Shee: Altreus and I are writing our own blog engine. Based on Cat, though.
15:53 Su-Shee rindolf: I know, I'm very much waiting for it. ;)
15:54 rindolf Su-Shee: it will be ready faster if you contribute<tm>.
15:54 sri_kraih rindolf: comments are so 2008...
15:54 sri_kraih in 2009 everybody just tweets
15:54 rindolf sri_kraih: you mean now people post responses as separate blog entries on their blogs?
15:54 Su-Shee rindolf: I focus on gui stuff. I simply can't to everything :/
15:55 Su-Shee ah, THOSE comments :)) I thought comments in the source :))
15:55 jnthn sri_kraih: Was http://perl-yarg.blogspot.com/2009/08/working-with-rakudo-and-parrot.html your post?
15:55 sri_kraih jnthn: nope
15:55 rindolf Su-Shee: yes, blog comments.
15:55 jnthn sri_kraih: Ah, OK.
15:56 sri_kraih but i can relate to it
15:56 jnthn sri_kraih: It's a good post, that's all. :-)
15:56 rindolf sri_kraih: I'm using plurk.com which is a micro-blogging service that has micro-comments.
15:56 sri_kraih would love to port Mojo to Rakudo...
15:56 japhb rindolf, 'micro-comments'?  What are those, 14 chars max?
15:56 rindolf japhb: no. 140
15:57 japhb "Ogg agree."
15:57 japhb rindolf, just teasing.  :-)
15:57 rindolf japhb: ah.
15:57 Confield joined #perl6
15:57 Su-Shee japhb: "OMG!" and "SRY :)" fits in less.
15:57 jnthn sri_kraih: Seeing people saying "we could really use this to do X concrete application" is good to know. :-)
15:57 masak here's a post that audreyt++ just made: http://pugs.blogs.com/audrey/2009/08/why-such-me.html
15:57 sri_kraih i think as soon as rakudo does async io i can have port a full http 1.1 server over
15:57 rindolf Su-Shee: there was a "Noise to Signal" strip about 1-char micro-blogging.
15:57 FCO joined #perl6
15:58 sri_kraih *-have
15:58 jnthn sri_kraih: Since it helps give some focus.
15:58 Confield left #perl6
15:58 masak sri_kraih: let me know when you embark on such a project. I might want to be at least tangentially involved.
15:59 Confield joined #perl6
15:59 rindolf masak: had audrey been sick?
15:59 masak rindolf: yes. hepatitis.
15:59 masak and burnout.
15:59 rindolf masak: ah.
15:59 rblasch_ joined #perl6
15:59 sri_kraih masak: sure
16:00 rindolf masak: yes, I wondered where she has been.
16:01 japhb rindolf, the burnout as I understand it contributed mightily to the hepatitis.
16:01 rindolf japhb: ah.
16:01 jaffa8 Who burnt out?
16:01 rindolf jaffa8: audreyt.
16:01 jaffa8 When?
16:01 masak now that I think about it, the vacuum after audreyt++'s disappearance from this channel, and from Pugs development, hit me just as hard as the _why disappearance seems to hit the Ruby community.
16:01 masak jaffa8: around 2007.
16:02 jaffa8 What has he been doing since then?
16:02 moritz_ she, actually
16:02 jaffa8 that is 2,5 years
16:02 masak jaffa8: recovering, I imagine.
16:02 moritz_ working on other things
16:02 moritz_ not as exposed as before
16:03 japhb masak, yeah, losing audreyt++ was painful.  Kept asking after her, but noone who knew was telling.
16:03 rindolf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis - wow, sounds nasty.
16:03 jaffa8 She was employed
16:03 jaffa8 was not she?
16:04 masak japhb: the news trickled down over the years after that. still, there's a clear hole left after her.
16:04 rindolf http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%93%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%AA_%D7%9B%D7%91%D7%93
16:04 masak jaffa8: yes.
16:04 japhb masak, NODNOD
16:04 moritz_ http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=790671 perl 5.10.1 released! YaY!
16:05 jaffa8 Why are you showing Hebrew webpages?
16:05 japhb YES!
16:05 M_o_C Huh, released on the weekend :o
16:05 rindolf jaffa8: because Hebrew is my native tongue.
16:06 jaffa8 ok
16:06 rindolf jaffa8: I didn't know what Hepatitis was, but I was familiar with the Hebrew term.
16:06 jaffa8 ok
16:06 rindolf jaffa8: there's a link to the English version.
16:06 jaffa8 Are you in Israel?
16:06 rindolf jaffa8: yes, I live in Tel Aviv.
16:07 jaffa8 must be fun
16:08 M_o_C Did someone apply Whiteknights patch to master yet?
16:08 jaffa8 Since when have you lived there?
16:08 rindolf jaffa8: since I was 5 years old.
16:09 rindolf jaffa8: I was born here.
16:09 rindolf But my parents moved to the states when I was 1 y.o.
16:09 jaffa8 Are you Russian?
16:09 rindolf jaffa8: no.
16:09 rindolf jaffa8: I'm Jewish.
16:09 M_o_C nvm, apparently they still test it.
16:09 rindolf jaffa8: and Israeli born.
16:09 * japhb chuckles at lines 99-101 of http://gitorious.org/parrot-module-lib/main/blobs/master/HOWTO
16:10 rindolf jaffa8: I know many Russians though.
16:10 jaffa8 DId you parent come from Russia?
16:10 rindolf jaffa8: no.
16:10 rindolf jaffa8: my mother was born in Iraq.
16:10 rblasch__ joined #perl6
16:10 rindolf jaffa8: and my father is also Israeli born, to Polish and Lithuanian immigrants.
16:10 jaffa8 Is not that unusual?
16:10 rindolf jaffa8: not all Israelis are Russian.
16:10 rindolf jaffa8: or their parents came from Russia.
16:11 jaffa8 that is clear from me
16:11 jaffa8 I heard there were so many Russians there, one can hear Russian speaking everywhere
16:11 jaffa8 on the beach.
16:11 rindolf There are many Moroccans, Romanians, Tunisians, Syrians, Yemenites.
16:12 rindolf jaffa8: hearing Russian spoken is not uncommon.
16:12 rindolf We've received many immigrants from the former USSR.
16:13 jaffa8 Do you practice your religion?
16:14 rindolf jaffa8: no, I'm not religious.
16:14 rindolf jaffa8: I'm a Jew by peopleship - not by faith.
16:14 rindolf jaffa8: I do however, not eat leavened bread on Passover.
16:15 rindolf But I use electricity on Sabbath, etc.
16:15 rindolf And eat non-kosher foods.
16:15 jaffa8 Why do you keep one rule and not another?
16:16 japhb He likes matzoh?
16:16 japhb :-)
16:16 rindolf jaffa8: well, I consider the Passover matzos thing an ethnic custom.
16:16 rindolf Which I like to observe.
16:16 M_o_C Hm, so some jews also refuse the use of electricity on Sabbath?
16:17 Su-Shee jaffa8: for the same reasons on fridays in germany many people eat fish and no meat - "custom derived from relegion" :)
16:17 japhb M_o_C, there is a *lot* that is forbidden on the Sabbath, for a strict observer.
16:17 rindolf I think that God, if he exists, cares little for old testament ethics.
16:17 jaffa8 probably
16:17 rindolf M_o_C: yes, some Jews don't use electricity on Sabbath.
16:17 jaffa8 or he may be in another galaxy
16:17 rindolf jaffa8: heh.
16:17 jaffa8 leading another group of people
16:18 japhb obStargateReference
16:18 M_o_C japhb: Well, I'm not really that well informed in regards of the Tora...
16:18 rindolf Su-Shee: is this something related to Christianity?
16:18 rindolf M_o_C: according to the interpretation of the Torah, it was forbidden to light fire.
16:18 rindolf But you could still keep a fire burning.
16:19 rindolf M_o_C: light fire in Sabbath I mean.
16:19 rindolf M_o_C: and Jews concluded that Electricity was fire-like.
16:19 cognominal rindolf, since the old testament, jewish have been in the entertainment business meaning writing and now producing fictions
16:19 M_o_C Yep, I interpreted it that way. Thanks for explaining.
16:19 Su-Shee rindolf: yes, a "fasting on friday" thing.
16:19 rindolf cognominal: :-)
16:19 adam-pwgsc joined #perl6
16:20 rindolf cognominal: "God is my favourite fictional character." -- Homer Simpson.
16:20 Su-Shee rindolf: and fish is/was considered no meat and therefore fasting.
16:20 rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
16:20 rindolf Su-Shee: what about vegetables?
16:20 cognominal rindolf, I suppose that if you are not restricted to kasher, you can eat camels too.
16:21 cognominal I don't remember the exact rule about 2 toed animals...
16:21 rindolf cognominal: Camels may be kosher.
16:21 rindolf cognominal: not sure.
16:21 KatrinaTheLamia rindolf, why is it that Homer Simpson gets all the most intelligent lines... despite being a rather dumb characters
16:21 rindolf cognominal: they should either make a hoof print or recycle their food.
16:21 Su-Shee rindolf: also allowed, I think. several german dishes go back to this "no meat" thing and have meat not visually but hidden included in the dish. ;)
16:21 rindolf KatrinaTheLamia: I don't know.
16:22 rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
16:22 rindolf KatrinaTheLamia: it's been a while since I watched the Simpsons.
16:22 rindolf But I used to like it.
16:23 jaffa8 what is minus in regular expressions?
16:23 rindolf jaffa8: in p6?
16:23 jaffa8 yes
16:24 rindolf why does my spell checker highlights Jaffa? It's a very old city for crying out loud.
16:24 masak rakudo: say "foo" ~~ /<-[bar]>/
16:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«f␤»
16:24 rindolf masak: negation?
16:24 masak jaffa8: it's a negated character class.
16:25 masak rindolf: it's a negated character class.
16:25 rindolf masak: ah.
16:25 rindolf masak: but not negation in general?
16:25 masak rindolf: what would that mean inside a regex?
16:25 rindolf masak: like match anything except "masak"?
16:25 japhb mberends, am I correct in reading http://gitorious.org/parrot-module-lib/main/blobs/master/src/json.pir that the runtime/parrot/library/JSON.pir does to-json only, and not from-json, by design?
16:26 rindolf masak: a lot of people ask us about it.
16:26 masak :)
16:26 masak rindolf: the closest two things I can think about are the !~~ operator and <!after ...> negative lookahead.
16:26 rindolf masak: http://perl.net.au/wiki/Freenode_Sharp_Perl_FAQ#How_can_I_match_anything-except-a-regex_inside_a_Perl_regular_expression.3F
16:26 rindolf masak: I'm not saying implementing it would be a good idea.
16:27 masak rindolf: ISTR regexes can have !~~ inside of them.
16:27 japhb Why doesn't 'perl6 --version' include either a release number or a git rev?
16:27 rindolf masak: ah.
16:27 masak but I don't know if it's implemented in Rakudo/PGE yet.
16:27 mberends japhb: lines 13-21 should do from-json
16:27 masak japhb: you're right, it definitely should, at least the release name.
16:28 masak japhb: care to submit a Rakudobug?
16:28 japhb masak, I can, but it will have to wait.  I'm trying to be head down right now.
16:28 masak ok. later works.
16:29 japhb (Yesterday was my birthday, but I had to go to someone else's party.  So for my birthday I'm getting a day to do nothing but hack on Parrot, and dangit I am making the *most* of it!)
16:29 masak :D
16:30 * Su-Shee got herself a new job for her birthday last week. ;)
16:30 japhb Su-Shee, awesome
16:31 jaffa8 What kind of job?
16:31 DarkWolf84 left #perl6
16:31 Su-Shee japhb: yeah, only the gift wrapping was a little difficult.. ;)
16:31 Su-Shee jaffa8: coding perl. :)
16:31 dalek rakudo: e2b5e8f | moritz++ |  (2 files):
16:31 dalek rakudo: re-enable building on latest parrot. Also bump PARROT_REVISION
16:31 dalek rakudo: Patch courtesy by Andrew Withworth, Whiteknight++
16:31 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e2b5e8fc7172381091159935cde8fc3797276c78
16:31 rindolf Su-Shee: mazal tov!
16:32 rindolf Su-Shee: for your birthday I mean.
16:32 Su-Shee rindolf: that's for birthdays as well?
16:32 rindolf Su-Shee: yes.
16:32 masak Su-Shee: grattis! # sv 'congratulations'
16:32 rindolf masak: slovekian? Slovenian?
16:33 Su-Shee rindolf: ah, ok. :)
16:33 masak Swedish.
16:33 rindolf masak: oh.
16:33 rindolf :-S
16:33 rindolf masak: gratis means costless in English.
16:33 rindolf Must be confusing.
16:33 masak in Swedish too.
16:33 Su-Shee rindolf: in german as well.
16:33 masak it's not confusing, the vowels are different.
16:33 jnthn .oO( gratis is accepted as an English word now? )
16:33 Su-Shee masak: ttis makes the i short and tis is with long i?
16:34 masak Su-Shee: no, the 'a' before the 't' or 'tt'.
16:34 Su-Shee ah. ok.
16:34 Su-Shee jnthn: wasn't everything latin? ;)
16:34 masak Su-Shee: and 'short'/'long' actually changes the kind of vowel, not just the length.
16:35 japhb jnthn, yes, quite
16:35 masak the 'a' in 'gratis' sounds like the one in 'father'. the 'a' in 'grattis' sounds like the one in 'pattern'.
16:35 japhb heck, half of English is Latin by way of French anyway ....
16:35 masak indeed.
16:36 rindolf japhb: some of it is directly from Latin.
16:36 jaffa8 Rakudo is not very fast
16:36 japhb rindolf, sure
16:36 jaffa8 it ran for 45 seconds for me
16:36 Su-Shee rindolf: what isn't in indoeuropean languages.. ;))
16:36 rindolf But it's all lies. Half of English is from Yiddish..
16:36 masak japhb: it hasn't been optimized much.
16:37 rindolf Su-Shee: also in Persian and Indian languages?
16:37 japhb rindolf, the swearing?
16:37 japhb ;-)
16:37 rindolf Su-Shee: they are IE too.
16:37 rindolf Su-Shee: but I imagine they are less influenced than Latin than European IE languages.
16:38 cognominal rindolf, you got some chutzpah to pretend that
16:38 * rindolf got stuck at work today.
16:38 rindolf cognominal: :-)
16:38 Su-Shee .oO(chuzpe..) :)
16:39 rindolf chutzpah is an Hebrew word in origin.
16:39 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
16:39 rindolf I think it appears in the Bible.
16:40 Su-Shee rindolf: I know, we use it in german, but it's writte chuzpe here.
16:40 rindolf I once heard a speech given in Anglo-Saxon.
16:40 cognominal it is unkown in French
16:40 rindolf Su-Shee: how is it pronounced?
16:40 KatrinaTheLamia English? There is no language known as English. English describes a style of syntax for matching words together. The words themselves come almost entirely from other languages.
16:41 Su-Shee rindolf: oh yeah... how do I write that.. :)
16:41 rindolf cognominal: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chutzpah
16:41 huf KatrinaTheLamia: that's true for all languages as far as i know
16:41 japhb KatrinaTheLamia, that makes it no different than any other natural language ....
16:41 huf japhb++
16:41 rindolf japhb++
16:42 rindolf http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Chuzpe#German
16:42 rindolf No pronunciation unfortunately.
16:42 rindolf No wonder you prefer it over Dreistigkeit
16:43 Su-Shee rindolf: the chu a little like in church and then with a sharp sz, short p and the e is like hm...
16:43 * moritz_ prefers Dreistigkeit, actually
16:43 rindolf moritz_: ah.
16:43 KatrinaTheLamia japhb, huf yeah... I've heard all sorts of wild and crazy definitions for what constitutes something as a "natural" language. I dunno, most of what I read makes me just want to learn and use sanskrit instead >.>
16:43 rindolf moritz_: you have some chutzpe to prefer it.
16:43 moritz_ rindolf: no, freedom ;-)
16:43 moritz_ the 'e' is not pronounced at all, I think
16:44 rindolf moritz_: I was joking . :-)
16:44 masak rindolf: my Google-fu cannot help me answer the question whether chutzpah is a word from the Bible or not. :/
16:44 rindolf We pronounce Hutzpah with the stress on the "ah".
16:44 rindolf As opposed to the Yiddish Hooooooooooootzpah
16:44 Su-Shee moritz_: my grandmother used it and she pronounced it like tschuszpe.
16:44 japhb mberends, let me see if I understand ... compilers/json/JSON.pir first does a PGE match against the JSON grammar, then uses JSON::PIR to convert the match to PIR source, then uses PIRC to compile it to bytecode, then tailcalls the bytecode to produce the thawed data structure?
16:45 rindolf Su-Shee: is verboten pronounced as fferboten?
16:45 Su-Shee rindolf: yes, in that case.
16:46 mberends japhb: checking..
16:46 lisppaste3 MoC pasted "Rakudo Makefile" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85906
16:46 moritz_ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.modules/2009/08/msg67299.html # my mail to modules@perl.org
16:46 Su-Shee rindolf: if a word derives from greek/latin and starts with a "v" it's more like "w"
16:46 rindolf http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/verboten - what is its etymology?
16:46 rindolf Su-Shee: ah.
16:46 rindolf Su-Shee: "more like"?
16:46 Su-Shee rindolf: pronounced more like a w.
16:47 rindolf [OE. forbeden, AS. forbeódan; pref. for- + beódan to bid; akin to D. verbieden, G. verbieten, Icel., fyrirbj&omac;&edh;a, forbo&edh;a, Sw. förbjuda, Dan. forbyde. See Bid, v. t.]
16:47 Su-Shee rindolf: verboten comes from "gebote" (10 commentments). if you _have_ to do something, it's a "gebot". if you must NOT do something it's a "verbot"
16:48 rindolf Seems like its Germanic in origin.
16:48 rindolf http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&amp;word=forbid&amp;use1913=on
16:48 cognominal I think american english is not frozen by an academy like french.
16:48 mberends moritz_++ for Perl 6 modules on CPAN email suggestion
16:49 Su-Shee rindolf: yeah, looks like it. the important part is the "bot" in the middle. ;)
16:49 cognominal French evolves thx  to semi-illiterate people like sons of arabic immigration that don't give a shit about the Académie Française.
16:49 Su-Shee cognominal: but the french have extremely cool dictionaries thanks to the academy. :)
16:50 cognominal I don't think you have it on line like the very good Littré
16:50 cognominal There is even a free Littré app on the iPhone.
16:51 rindolf cognominal: there's fr.wiktionary.org
16:51 rindolf It's bigger than en.wiktionary.org
16:51 cognominal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_de_la_langue_française_(Littré)
16:51 Su-Shee cognominal: yeah, but I'm loughing every day about the "petit robert" and its 9cm "petitness" in my shelf. ;)
16:51 rindolf Su-Shee: heh, heh.
16:51 rindolf Su-Shee: lough is a lake, BTW.
16:51 rindolf Like Loch.
16:52 rindolf My spell-checker highlights it.
16:52 rindolf It didn't use to.
16:52 moritz_ except that most English can't pronounce "loch" ;-)
16:52 rindolf Maybe the en_GB one is incopmlete.
16:52 rindolf lokh, no?
16:52 moritz_ no
16:52 rindolf Like Genghis Khan.
16:52 cognominal for an up to date online dictionnary (but not free) there is Antidote RX done by people from Quebec lacks etymology though
16:52 moritz_ that's what most say, and that's what's wrong
16:52 rindolf Or Khalif.
16:52 rindolf moritz_: ah.
16:53 moritz_ rindolf: it's pronounced with soft ch like you find in German
16:53 Su-Shee rindolf: I _think_ our ch is like an arabian h.
16:53 cognominal loughing?
16:54 rindolf Su-Shee: which one? a Kh or a 3? Muhhamad or Khalif/Khan?
16:54 rindolf Su-Shee: two different sounds.
16:55 cognominal I don't think the Larousse or the Petit Robert are available on computers in any useable form. Last time I checked one used to have the CD/DVD in the reader to use it.
16:55 Su-Shee rindolf: the muhammad h.
16:55 masak mberends: I got distracted by some ideas I had for a file-backended mini-ORM, as a precursor to an early MVC for Web.pm.
16:55 cognominal come on. Why not dongles why they are at it.
16:55 mberends japhb: by golly you're right, the JSON data is translated to PIR which is then compiled in line 70 and executed in line 71
16:55 masak mberends: I'd be happy to pick up the proto restructuring at some later time.
16:58 Su-Shee moritz_: let's hope, someone answers..
16:58 mberends masak: yes distracted randomly here too. getting ready for a pretty week ahead too.
16:58 masak mberends: aye. same here.
16:58 mberends *pretty busy
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17:01 japhb mberends, OK, so I'm not entirely insane.
17:02 Su-Shee moritz_: why don't you write a nice perl 6 programming book?
17:02 japhb mberends, are the JSON grammar and emitter fully compliant?  Or are there things in JSON still not handled correctly?
17:02 moritz_ Su-Shee: I'm really thinking about it.
17:03 Su-Shee moritz_: I suggest "contemporary object oriented programming with perl 6"
17:03 mberends japhb: it is a fairly whacky way to convert a data file to a data structure. when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail ;)
17:03 japhb mberends, :-)
17:04 moritz_ Su-Shee: "Perl 6" implies "object oriented" already ;-)
17:05 japhb mberends, question still applies though ... can I assume that the current JSON code is just "correct", and not worry about edge cases?
17:05 Su-Shee moritz_: yeah, but I meant something focussing on architecture and roles and all this stuff contrary to something like "the handbook" or "perl 6 for computer linguists" (which would be probably later be called "the grammar for grammars" or something like this. ;)
17:06 moritz_ Su-Shee: problem is, I don't understand most of Perl 6's OO :)
17:06 Su-Shee moritz_: well if YOU don't - what will the rest of us do? ;)
17:07 mberends japhb: there is meant to be a 'make test' to give some idea of correctness. I just passed all 78 tests here :-)
17:07 Su-Shee I feel bad every day because I don't use all the cool features.
17:07 japhb mberends, all right, I'll call that infrastructure for now then, thx
17:08 moritz_ Su-Shee: jnthn, ruoso and TimToady probably understand it
17:08 Su-Shee oh, that many? ;)
17:08 mberends japhb: agreed
17:08 moritz_ Su-Shee: presumably pmichaud too
17:09 Su-Shee moritz_: "gee, they need a second car soon.." ;)
17:11 rindolf They tell that after Millikan received his Nobel Prize, someone at the news conference asked him "Is it true that only three people understand Einstein's General Theory of Relativity". So he replied: "Really? Who's the third?"
17:12 rindolf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Millikan - him.
17:12 rindolf My spell-checker also highlights Millikan.
17:17 dalek rakudo: e781e94 | mberends++ | tools/test_summary.pl:
17:17 dalek rakudo: tools/test_summary.pl: remove the almost redundant 'test' report column
17:17 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e781e94b57939e41f7322f98b765cacad7a7c7b4
17:17 dalek rakudo: c4c67da | mberends++ | :
17:17 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
17:17 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c4c67daa2468762fa38d7951054036e4316e0d64
17:21 japhb ARG, github failing
17:21 japhb sigh
17:21 Tene github is down?
17:22 japhb Seems to be coming back slowly.
17:22 japhb It was internally timing out tree browsing.  (You got the fail octopus)
17:22 * Tene considers harassing/trolling his friend who works at engineyard.
17:23 Su-Shee "his up until now but not tommorow anymore" friend... ;)
17:24 Su-Shee -m+r
17:26 carlin rakudo: method foo() {}; multi sub foo {};
17:26 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
17:26 carlin anyone know if that is known?
17:27 japhb Tene, feel free to troll.  github is sleeping again.  :-)
17:27 * Tene already did: 11:25 <Tene> OMG GITHUB IS LIKE SLOW TODAY U WORK AT ENYA CANT U FIX IT?????
17:28 japhb heh
17:28 carlin (oh, it's a seg fault not a no-output)
17:30 japhb Frack.  OK, of the git-hosting services, any of them that can be claimed to be stable?  (That's a serious question -- no point in switching to SF or gitorious or what have you only to see same fail level)
17:31 Tene "running your own" has always been pretty stable for me.
17:31 japhb Seriously github?  Failing on front page?
17:31 Tene except for that time when I was traveling for work and the flatmate pulled out the ethernet cable.
17:31 japhb Tene, ouch
17:32 japhb Tene, I'm looking for the social stuff to work as well, not just pure repo hosting
17:32 Tene we could always have mirrors on several of the popular hosting sites.
17:32 japhb True
17:38 mikehh rakudo (c4c67da) builds on parrot r40742 - make test / make spectest (up to 28050) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
17:39 nbrown joined #perl6
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17:57 carlin rakudo: multi sub infix:<~> {}; sub infix:<~> {}; say "a"~"b".perl;
17:57 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
17:57 carlin rakudo: multi sub infix:<~> {}; sub infix:<~> {}; say "a"~"b";
17:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
17:58 carlin rakudo: multi sub foo {}; sub foo {}; foo
17:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
17:59 jnthn std:  multi sub foo {}; sub foo {}; foo
17:59 p6eval std 28050: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of package routine foo at /tmp/sjUNJHro9E line 1:␤------> [32mmulti sub foo {}; sub foo[33m⏏[31m {}; foo[0m␤    expecting new name to be defined␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
17:59 jnthn std++ # we'll steal that check at some point :-)
18:00 carlin atm it's a seg fault
18:00 moritz_ doesn't segfault here.
18:01 carlin > multi sub foo {}; sub foo {}; foo
18:01 carlin Segmentation fault
18:01 carlin Hmm
18:01 lambdabot <no location info>: Empty record update
18:02 moritz_ carlin: it might be different on the REPL
18:02 moritz_ even on the REPL it doesn't segfault here.
18:10 carlin fresh rakudo build with recommended parrot revision still does it
18:10 moritz_ that's bad.
18:11 jnthn If it's a memory corrutpion issue, it's completely feasible that it would manifest itself differently on different platforms.
18:11 jnthn carlin: If you know how to use GDB, then a backtrace would be interesting to see.
18:11 moritz_ no problems with -G and that code
18:12 moritz_ now running with gcdebug
18:22 carlin jnthn: I have gdb how I do I create a backtrace?
18:22 jnthn gdb perl6
18:22 jnthn r
18:22 moritz_ run $yourscript.pl
18:22 jnthn enter the code
18:22 moritz_ watch it die
18:23 moritz_ then
18:23 moritz_ bt
18:23 jnthn then bt
18:23 moritz_ .oO( concurrency gone wrong ;-)
18:23 * jnthn and moritz_ star in the GDB duet!
18:25 davef joined #perl6
18:27 carlin jnthn: http://gist.github.com/173374
18:28 moritz_ oh, that way it also segfaults here
18:28 moritz_ I tried with the multi first
18:29 carlin Ah
18:29 carlin So I'm not insane
18:32 carlin rakudo: multi sub foo {}; sub foo {}; foo; # doesn't die
18:32 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
18:32 carlin rakudo: multi sub foo {}; sub foo {}; foo # does
18:32 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
18:33 nbrown_ joined #perl6
18:33 moritz_ p6eval is bad in showing segfaults or exceeded resource limits
18:33 moritz_ (patches welcome)
18:34 moritz_ carlin: could you please write a bug report (including backtrace)?
18:35 nbrown__ joined #perl6
18:35 moritz_ Su-Shee: just wanted to tell you: I like your idea of a perl6-projects.org with sub pages; if you come up with a neat design for the sub pages, I'll contribute content
18:36 Su-Shee moritz_: is in the making, I'm a little slow behind due to the new job..
18:37 moritz_ Su-Shee: don't need to rush. I'd be fine with having it in a sub folder for a while
18:38 Su-Shee moritz_: I realized on masak's comment on doing work twice that there isn't a perl 6 cms.. ;)
18:38 moritz_ ;-)
18:38 moritz_ Su-Shee: well, SSI exists and is the simplest thing to avoid duplicate work
18:39 moritz_ Su-Shee: we have a virtual host on apache2, and I can configure it to allow anything we need
18:39 Su-Shee SSI like server side includes or...did I miss something yet again?
18:39 moritz_ server side includes, yes
18:40 Su-Shee *pew* :)
18:40 jnthn carlin: Ouch.
18:40 carlin can someone run this twice from the perl6 cli:
18:40 jnthn carlin: Thanks for backtrace
18:40 carlin rakudo: multi sub infix:<~> {}; sub infix:<~> {}; say "a"~"b";
18:40 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
18:41 carlin only segfaults on the second execution here
18:41 jnthn oh
18:41 jnthn it actually looks not so bad...
18:41 jnthn appears we deref a null pointer
18:42 moritz_ that sounds much more debuggable than a classical memory corruption
18:43 jnthn moritz_: indeed
18:45 carlin bug report sent
18:45 moritz_ thanks, carlin++
18:46 * jnthn can probably patch that at some point
18:48 carlin Good luck :) I better go, night all
19:15 nbrown joined #perl6
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19:22 Tene jnthn: My friend was already woken up about the github thing, apparently.  From what he tells me, the app/db aren't sharded at all, so if one person does a big query or downloads a big repo, it sucks for everyone else using the service.
19:22 japhb ouch
19:23 Tene and then he's irritated that they then claim it's a problem with EnYa.
19:23 japhb I can imagine that.
19:27 japhb How does one compile a program written purely in NQP?  (I'm crawling all over the directory tree piecing it together, but if someone knows off hand ...)
19:27 Tene parrot compilers/nqp/nqp.pbc
19:28 Tene --target=pir will generate PIR
19:28 Tene are either of those what you're asking for?
19:29 jnthn Tene: Ouch.
19:30 Tene eh?
19:30 jnthn Tene: The github thing.
19:30 japhb Tene: from an installed parrot?  Wouldn't that have to be parrot <parrot_install_dir>/lib/<ver>-devel/library/nqp/nqp.pbc --target=pir <sourcefile>.nqp?
19:30 jnthn (Was afk...only just noticed it)
19:30 Tene jnthn: I got confused by s/jnthn/japhb/ and thought he was repeating himself.
19:31 jnthn lol
19:31 Tene japhb: from installed, it's $WHATEVER/languages/nqp/nqp.pbc
19:31 jnthn japhb: I think you're right on the installed Parrot case, yes.
19:31 Tene nqp is a language, not a library.
19:31 jnthn Ah, but that.
19:32 Tene also, I really need to add inter-lang support to nqp, so you can eval and load_library and such.
19:32 jnthn That'd be quite cool.
19:32 japhb Tene, oh yes, please
19:32 Tene oh, that would be useful?
19:32 japhb That would probably prove more than just useful.
19:32 Tene I just meant from a standpoint of completeness.
19:33 Tene What would you want to use it for?
19:33 japhb Does NQP do the MAIN magic?
19:33 jnthn japhb: I believe not.
19:33 japhb Tene, I'm writing Parrot Plumage in NQP ... and JSON parsing is implemented as a language.
19:34 japhb jnthn, OK, so does it just start running the file at the top of the mainline code?
19:34 japhb Tene, to be clear: I didn't implement the JSON parser that way -- that's the way it *already* exists.
19:36 japhb .oO( Ah, duh, NQP is based on PCT, so supports --target that way ... )
19:36 Tene japhb: that's how I'd do the JSON stuff, fwiw.
19:37 Tene IMO, the following is at least a very nice way to deal with such formats: my $json = read_whatever(); my $content = eval($json, :lang<JSON>);
19:38 japhb Tene, right.  Which is why I want HLL interop in NQP.  ;-)
19:38 Tene japhb: now, what I originally was talking about, was adding uspport to NQP for other languages to load libraries written in it.
19:38 Tene but... I can certainly do what you want.
19:38 Tene I'll try to get it done in the next day.
19:38 Tene leaving for seattle tonight, though.
19:38 Tene so... travel can get in the way.
19:39 japhb Both will be useful in the long run ... since people will want to use the brains of Parrot Plumage as modules, I'm sure.
19:39 japhb But loading the JSON language from NQP is my priority.  Thank you for putting it on your list.  :-)
19:45 rfordinal3643 left #perl6
19:45 Tene japhb: go ahead and assume that it'll be there the next time I have a chance to spend 30 minutes working on it.
19:46 japhb :-)
19:46 Tene AFK shower/lunch/laundry/packing/travel
19:46 japhb good luck
19:58 moritz_ when rakudo supports pluggable grammars I'll modify the quoting constructs not to take a single quote between n and t as a quote terminator
19:58 moritz_ so that you can write     say 'don't do that'
19:58 japhb heh
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20:12 japhb Oh, very nice.  I'm only just started writing tests to see what NQP provides already and what it doesn't, and have been pleasantly surprised so far.  Good job, guys.
20:14 pugs_svn r28051 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for spec change r27054
20:18 jnthn japhb: I've written a fair amount of it and while it's fairly minimal in terms of feture set, it seems to have got a good balance of small yet enough to not feel annoying.
20:21 Su-Shee left #perl6
20:21 sri_kraih_ joined #perl6
20:24 japhb jnthn, indeed
20:25 jnthn pmichaud++ for that
20:25 * japhb afk for bday lunch ... bbl, same bat channel
20:26 pugs_svn r28052 | moritz++ | [t/spec/TODO] remove two items that I believe are covered now
20:26 pugs_svn r28053 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test that "for" statement modifier temporizes $_ on the thunk
20:28 sri_kraih joined #perl6
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20:38 masak joined #perl6
20:38 Aisling joined #perl6
20:39 masak http://brunorc.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/whats-so-exciting-in-perl-6-fighting-bugs/ # nice YAPC::EU TimToady keynote summary post
20:41 moritz_ btw r28051 contains pretty scary code
20:41 moritz_ that second test I added...
20:42 * moritz_ shudders
20:42 moritz_ one-pass parsing is not for the faint of hearted.
20:42 masak that's what I keep telling you. :)
20:43 masak sometimes I kinda wish the alternative weren't worse.
20:43 moritz_ aye
20:43 jnthn lolitsmasak :-)
20:44 jnthn masak: I might if you're really unlucky turn your create new project script into Perl.
20:44 jnthn ;-)
20:44 jnthn masak: Because manually creating the project shell based upon what it does will take me a similar amount of time once I've done it a few times. :-)
20:44 masak jnthn: cool!
20:44 masak I went offline to bake bread. but I also accidentally wrote an ORM persistence module.
20:45 jnthn Accidents happen.
20:45 jnthn We'll forgive you.
20:45 jnthn BTW does it have a cool name yet?
20:46 masak aye.
20:46 masak I think I will consider that week 14 of Web.pm and blog about it.
20:46 masak it will take some time to retrace my steps.
20:46 pugs_svn r28054 | moritz++ | [t/spec/TODO] rephrase moving intructions
20:46 pugs_svn r28054 | moritz++ |
20:46 pugs_svn r28054 | moritz++ | I consider the moving of tests from t/ to t/spec/ mostly done. What's left is
20:46 pugs_svn r28054 | moritz++ | some tests for run() of which I'm not sure how portable they are, some rather
20:46 pugs_svn r28054 | moritz++ | obscure tests for which I haven't been able to find out if they are still
20:46 pugs_svn r28054 | moritz++ | conforming to the spec, some regression tests and some disabled tests.
20:47 jnthn moritz++: w00t!
20:47 masak jnthn: I'm using custom traits on attributes!
20:47 masak jnthn: yes. it's called Viper.
20:47 masak and I don't expect it to last too long.
20:47 masak it's just bootsmacking, er bootshackling.
20:47 masak whatever.
20:47 jnthn masak: Oh noes! How many bugs did you find in the custom traits on attributes implementation?
20:48 masak jnthn: none.
20:48 masak jnthn: but I do have a question or two.
20:48 moritz_ masak: try harder, then ;-)
20:49 jnthn masak: No bugs in fresh code?
20:49 masak moritz_: I was baking bread!
20:49 * jnthn checks masak's temperature...
20:49 masak jnthn: maybe you hit the Ballmer peak with that traits implementation... :P
20:50 masak moritz_: btw, that second test is a great obfuscation technique.
20:50 jnthn masak: Oooh, plausible explanation!
20:50 reqamst Masak was baking bread, Su-Shee was backing bread... Huh, bread6 channel?
20:50 jnthn ...wait, did I check it in during evening or afternoon?
20:50 masak oh, and I think 'whitespace' is actually an uncountable.
20:51 masak :)
20:51 jnthn /join #bread6
20:51 masak reqamst: baking bread is simply a very nice thing to do.
20:52 masak it brings a certain sense of control over the chaotic and impersonal forces that rule our universe.
20:52 reqamst masak: I must try. :)
20:52 masak you really should.
20:53 reqamst Yes! Baking bread must be like writing program. Implementing algorithm
20:55 masak reqamst: actually, there are similarities. but baking bread is slightly more fysical. you're building concrete structures instead of abstract ones.
20:55 masak reqamst: if you want some tips, we're discussing them on #bread6 right now. :)
20:56 reqamst masak: Oh, I see.
20:56 jnthn ...the worst thing is that we actually *are*.
20:56 masak no, the worst thing is that I don't have any garlic butter right now.
20:56 braceta joined #perl6
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21:04 colomon No, the worst thing is that now you've got me wanting fresh baked bread, and the only thing I know how to bake takes about 20 hours from start to finish...
21:04 moritz_ fast-forward-bread? ;-)
21:06 masak .oO( ▶▶ bread )
21:13 takadonet joined #perl6
21:13 takadonet hey all
21:13 masak takadonet: o/
21:14 * moritz_ wonders if masak always raises the same hand, or if we sometimes see him from the and front and sometimes from the back
21:14 s1n masak: oddly enough, i still can't clone november, though i can clone other things on github fine
21:15 masak s1n: that is strange. I had no trouble cloning it.
21:16 s1n masak: yes, i have been cloning other github projects all weekend
21:17 moritz_ s1n: do you use http:// or git://?
21:17 s1n masak: git clone git://guthub.com/viklund/november.git
21:19 masak s1n: the git:// one.
21:19 s1n masak: yes, i know :)
21:20 masak oh, sorry. :) not reading nicks correctly.
21:26 takadonet Is http://www.rakudo.org/documentation broken for anyone else?
21:27 moritz_ takadonet: all rakudo.org pages are broken for me as soons as I allow it to set a cookie :(
21:27 jnthn moritz_: Same.
21:27 jnthn moritz_: That's why I haven't posted my last couple of things on there.
21:28 takadonet who runs rakudo.org?
21:28 moritz_ takadonet: alester aka petdance and pmichaud
21:29 justatheory joined #perl6
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21:44 * japhb is back ... Back to the Hack
21:45 japhb What is the qx'' equivalent for NQP?
21:45 japhb Or even system() for that matter?
21:46 moritz_ system is spelled run() in Perl 6. Don't know if NQP supports either.
21:46 jnthn NQP doesn't really have built-ins.
21:46 jnthn Erm, built-in subs.
21:47 jnthn It fully supportings defining and calling subs.
21:47 jnthn But I don't know that it includes anyway.
21:47 jnthn (I'm quite sure it doesn't.)
21:48 moritz_ is ruby's { |foo| ... } the same as Perl 6's -> $foo { ... } ?
21:48 jnthn moritz_: That was my understanding, but I've only really skimmed Ruby.
21:49 moritz_ jnthn: thanks
21:50 moritz_ rakudo: clas A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a».b = 4; say @a[1].b
21:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Attempt to define attribute $!b outside of class, role, or grammar at line 2, near "}; my @a ="␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1789)␤»
21:51 jnthn japhb: Maybe best bet for now is to use inline PIR to do whatever Rakudo's run does, and stick it inside a sub run(...) { ... }
21:51 japhb jnthn, I was thinking that myself.
21:51 moritz_ rakudo: clas A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a»b = 4; say @a[1].b
21:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Attempt to define attribute $!b outside of class, role, or grammar at line 2, near "}; my @a ="␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1789)␤»
21:51 moritz_ rakudo: clas A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a.»b = 4; say @a[1].b
21:51 jnthn ...wtf?
21:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Attempt to define attribute $!b outside of class, role, or grammar at line 2, near "}; my @a ="␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1789)␤»
21:51 moritz_ I mis-spelled "class"
21:51 jnthn rakudo: clas A { has $.b is rw }
21:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Attempt to define attribute $!b outside of class, role, or grammar at line 2, near "}"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1789)␤»
21:51 jnthn moritz_: I know, but...it parses!
21:51 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a».b = 4; say @a[1].b
21:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
21:51 jnthn std: clas A { has $.b is rw }
21:52 p6eval std 28054: OUTPUT«Undeclared name:␤      A used at 1 ␤Undeclared routine:␤   clas used at 1 ␤ok 00:02 38m␤»
21:52 jnthn oh
21:52 jnthn so does STD
21:52 jnthn heh, now I want to know what it parses as. :-)
21:52 moritz_ rakudo: clas A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a.»b = 1..3; say @a[1].b
21:52 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Attempt to define attribute $!b outside of class, role, or grammar at line 2, near "}; my @a ="␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1789)␤»
21:52 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a.»b = 1..3; say @a[1].b
21:52 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ".\x{bb}b = 1..3"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3460)␤»
21:52 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a».b = 1..3; say @a[1].b
21:52 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
21:53 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a».b = 1..3; say @a[0].b
21:53 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
21:53 moritz_ so it's just igoring the assignment?
21:55 jnthn moritz_: Hmm
21:55 jnthn I'm not sure what it's doing tbh.
21:55 jnthn rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; say (@>>.b).perl
21:55 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " (@>>.b).p"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2550)␤»
21:56 jnthn rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; say (@a>>.b).perl
21:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«[undef, undef, undef]␤»
21:57 jnthn rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; say (@a>>.b).PARROT
21:57 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Perl6Array␤»
21:58 jnthn Hmm, I wonder if that wants to be List.
21:58 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a[1].b = 4; say (@a>>.b).PARROT
21:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Perl6Array␤»
21:58 moritz_ rakudo: class A { has $.b is rw }; my @a = map { A.new }, ^3; @a[1].b = 4; say (@a>>.b).perl
21:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«[undef, 4, undef]␤»
22:14 pyrimidine joined #perl6
22:14 nothingmuch where is junction eigenstate extraction best documented?
22:15 masak nothingmuch: S32/Containers
22:15 nothingmuch and the best permalink for that is the pugscode svn repo?
22:16 masak 'permalink' in the sense that you want to link to the current version?
22:16 nothingmuch yeah
22:17 * nothingmuch is writing a blog post comparing McCarthy's amb to junctions for backtracking
22:17 masak yes, probably the SVN repo then.
22:17 masak http://perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Containers.html keeps being regenerated.
22:17 nothingmuch basically you can't really say if ( $x >= $y ) {  } as if it wasa an assertion because you need to collapse the junction yourself
22:17 masak nothingmuch: sounds interesting.
22:17 nothingmuch $x and $y aren't mutated by that
22:18 * nothingmuch is not really sure what to recocomend
22:18 nothingmuch maybe there'sa  better construct for this?
22:19 masak nothingmuch: not built into Perl 6, methinks.
22:20 nothingmuch what's the most idiomatic way to construct junctions for $x and $y that contain the subset of values that pass that expression
22:20 nothingmuch ?
22:20 masak uhm, using all(), perhaps?
22:21 masak or any()...
22:21 nothingmuch ?
22:21 masak I guess you're asking how to extract the values in a good way.
22:22 nothingmuch http://scsys.co.uk:8001/32892
22:22 nothingmuch that's the canonical amb example
22:22 masak since you want to loop over both sets in all combinations, you might want to do 'for $x.eigenstates X $y.eigenstates { ... }'
22:22 masak nothingmuch: ah. so you're actually changing $x and $y as you go.
22:22 nothingmuch if my $x = any(1, 2, 3); my $y = any(1, 2, 3); i don't see a way to keep only the valid values with a single expression
22:23 jnthn nothingmuch: Ah, you're basically added extra conditions that stack up?
22:23 nothingmuch well, not exactly, $x and $y aren't junctions in this example
22:23 nothingmuch amb is an implicit backtracking point
22:24 nothingmuch the first and third assertions are simple
22:24 nothingmuch that's just $x = $x >= 2;
22:24 jnthn Right.
22:24 jnthn The second one is a bit more interesting.
22:24 nothingmuch exactly =)
22:24 japhb It looks like Q:PIR{} syntax was partially implemented in NQP, but it wasn't finished.  Is there a reason for that?
22:25 jnthn japhb: No, that's odd.
22:26 jnthn nothingmuch: I think the issue is that with junctions, you end up computing various permuations of the values in $x + $y, that gives you a new junction, then you see if any of those values == 5
22:26 jnthn But the link to the junctions $x and $y is lost at that point.
22:26 nothingmuch yeah
22:27 nothingmuch any takers for an idiomatic way to write that code with junctions?
22:27 braceta left #perl6
22:27 nothingmuch it doesn't need to be similar, it should just end up with some association of $x to 3 and $y to 2 in the end
22:28 jnthn Hmm.
22:29 jnthn Off hand, I can't think of one.
22:29 jnthn It feels like a related problem to the one junctions solve, but not quite the same one.
22:29 nothingmuch yeah
22:29 frederico_br joined #perl6
22:30 masak nod.
22:30 masak the question has been asked a few times on p6l.
22:30 masak all people seem to agree on is that junctions do not easily bend to solve such problems.
22:30 nothingmuch probably by me as well at some point =)
22:32 jnthn I think it was December/January-ish something like this last came up on p6l.
22:35 jnthn I think the outcome was, Junctions are designed to deal with a certain set of problems, and are more a linguistic device than a mathematical one, and that things that do Junction-alike stuff that doesn't really fit what Junctions do probably wants to be a different data structure.
22:36 masak coincidentally, my journey with junctions has followed the same broad arc.
22:36 masak I feel very confident with using them in conditions.
22:36 nothingmuch <p>That said, although junctions are not truly capable of creating backtracking logic that doesn't mean they are more or less useful than <tt>amb</tt>, their applictions are simply different.They are most useful for collecting permuted results is what really interests you, sort of like <tt>amb-collect</tt>, but when overloading the data (and not the control flow) is really what you want.</p>
22:36 nothingmuch that's how I summarized it
22:37 nothingmuch actually let me post the whole draft
22:37 jnthn nothingmuch: That sounds like a sensible conclusion.
22:37 nothingmuch i was just hoping to provide an additional example that explains how this would be done more idiomatically
22:37 nothingmuch but that's a flawed idea
22:37 jnthn You've thought about it more than I have, of course, but it matches my feeling on this.
22:37 nothingmuch the example doesn't want a permutation, it wants two scalar eigenstates
22:38 jnthn I think it'd be possible to implement such a data structure in Perl 6 without too much effort.
22:38 jnthn Though I suspect it's probably library rather than core language.
22:38 jnthn It is a cool construct.
22:39 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/tmp/amb.html'
22:40 nothingmuch i think the second paragraph is a little bit inaccurate
22:40 * nothingmuch will reword
22:41 masak nothingmuch: suddenly I want 'amb' (or the tools to make it) in Perl 6.
22:42 nothingmuch you have it
22:42 nothingmuch look at the test
22:42 nothingmuch i implemented it in perl 5
22:42 lollan joined #perl6
22:42 nothingmuch (caveat tester, it actually segfaults in its urrent form due to a bug in unwinding subroutine invocation PERL_CONTEXT frames, but if you fiddle it a bit the test passes with Continuation::Delimited)
22:42 jnthn nothingmuch++ # cool write-up :-)
22:42 masak aye, nothingmuch++
22:43 jnthn Thanks for pointing it out. And now you've mentioned hwo it works, it's even more interesting.
22:43 nothingmuch http://github.com/nothingmuch/continuation-delimited/blob/master/t/04_amb.t
22:43 nothingmuch comments and everything ;-)
22:43 nothingmuch the p6 impl would be much more elegant
22:44 nothingmuch this is what it needs to pass right now: http://scsys.co.uk:8001/32885
22:44 nothingmuch and this is the output with tracing: http://scsys.co.uk:8001/32884
22:45 masak http://lastofthecarelessmen.blogspot.com/2009/08/vector-joining-perl-6-ecosystem.html # someone blogs about proto :)
22:45 masak http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39513 # lolibloggedtoo
22:47 japhb I love how going to the pub is a todo item
22:47 jnthn It's one of those todo items that doesn't need to get taken off the todo list after it's done.
22:48 ihrd joined #perl6
22:48 jnthn masakpost! :-D
22:48 japhb jnthn, is a leading '!' the Rakudo way of saying "internal subroutine"?
22:49 japhb As in:  .sub '!qx'
22:49 japhb I'm guessing it's by analogy with private class attributes
22:50 jnthn japhb: Yeah, it's a convention that we use.
22:50 masak std: class A { method !private() {} }
22:50 p6eval std 28054: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
22:50 masak japhb: not just internal.
22:50 jnthn Taken from that concention. :-)
22:50 japhb masak, oh?
22:50 jnthn masak: I think japhb was talking about subs rather than methods.
22:50 jnthn masak: For subs it's just a convention.
22:50 masak oh, right. indeed.
22:50 japhb OK, right, we're clear
22:50 nothingmuch is http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/exe/E06.html#The_Wonderful_World_of_Junctions still the most perma link?
22:50 jnthn Whereas method !private() { } is actually Perl 6 syntax. :-)
22:52 jnthn masak: In your post, what are you using the trait for?
22:52 masak jnthn: nothing, yet.
22:53 masak jnthn: but it will provide various convinience methods eventually.
22:53 masak right now it's just a stub.
22:53 jnthn ah, ok
22:53 jnthn nothingmuch: It doesn't immediately look out of date.
22:53 jnthn my Floor::Wax|Dessert::Topping $shimmer; is
22:53 cotto joined #perl6
22:54 jnthn S09 is The Spec that is maintained.
22:54 jnthn Junctions section in http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec/S09-data.pod
22:54 jnthn I forget where it's HTML-ized...
22:54 s1n cabal
22:55 jnthn ah, yes
22:55 jnthn http://perlcabal.org/syn/S09.html#Junctions
22:55 s1n http://perlcabal.org/syn/S09.html#Junctions
22:55 s1n lol
22:55 nothingmuch i was considering using that but it's not good introductory material I think
22:55 jnthn rakudo: say ('great minds think alike', 'all fools are the same').pick
22:55 nothingmuch it's hard to see what you can do with them
22:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«great minds think alike␤»
22:56 jnthn nothingmuch: Aye. The lesser evil may be your original suggestion.
22:56 nothingmuch till you grok the whole thing that is
22:56 jnthn I can't think of a better one off hand.
22:56 nothingmuch exe it is then =)
22:56 nothingmuch ok, now to see if I can make it stop segfaulting
22:56 nothingmuch ^_^
22:56 s1n nothingmuch: the spec is somewhere between spec and chatter
22:57 nothingmuch s1n: i want a link in a blog post where someone who doesn't grok junctions can get an idea of what they are about
22:58 s1n nothingmuch: aside from a few minor things, that first link you posted is more n00b-friendly
22:59 jnthn nothingmuch: Happy debugging.
22:59 s1n nothingmuch: junctions aren't rocket science though, despite their popularity, the n00b can think of them as sets with boolean eval (few other nice things, like pick)
23:00 jnthn Don't let TimToady see you equating junctions and sets. ;-)
23:00 nothingmuch s1n: the exegesis's advantage is that it provides a clear example of the linguistic advantage
23:00 nothingmuch whereas the synopsis does not
23:00 s1n jnthn: just wait until people _abuse_ junctions and make them sets
23:00 nothingmuch been there, done that, that's why we have the Set type (or at least had it back in 2005-2006 when I was last up to date ;-)
23:00 s1n nothingmuch: if you need real examples, i suggest the tests
23:01 nbrown joined #perl6
23:01 jnthn s1n: Yes, the problem is that said people will try and get bitten.
23:01 s1n nothingmuch: more often than not, i give up with the spec and just read the tests
23:01 nothingmuch why not the exegesis?
23:01 s1n jnthn: that's what you think :)
23:01 nothingmuch it's got clear examples and explanatory text
23:01 nothingmuch not just examples that work
23:02 jnthn nothingmuch: The general issue with the exegesis is that they aren't maintained relative to the spec.
23:02 s1n nothingmuch: because the tests are far more complete :)
23:02 jnthn nothingmuch: In thise case however, the two haven't really diverged.
23:02 jnthn So it's a fine thing to link to still.
23:02 s1n the cabal embeds smartlinks
23:02 * jnthn grabs a beer to read masak's blog post with
23:02 nothingmuch yeah, i'm not trying to detail how they should really wokr, just to get a quik handle on them if you haven't been exposed
23:03 nothingmuch s1n: again, not the point of the blog post
23:03 s1n nothingmuch: i know, just telling you how i grok things :)
23:03 s1n nothingmuch: btw, nice talk on haskell at yapc :)
23:04 nothingmuch i'd link to Perl6::Junction, it as a great synopsis, but it doesn't actually support eigenstate extraction
23:04 nothingmuch and Q::SP's synopsis isn't that great either
23:04 nothingmuch thanks =)
23:05 nothingmuch bad delivery though, I thought I was going to faint (saw black spots and everything)
23:06 s1n nothingmuch: no it was fine, you seemed kinda nervous, but content is king :)
23:06 nothingmuch s/nervous/sick/;
23:06 jnthn I imaigne that's kinda distracting when trying to give a talk.
23:06 nothingmuch very very sick
23:06 nothingmuch i thought i was going to cancel
23:06 jnthn nothingmuch: Hope you're feeling much better now.
23:06 nothingmuch yeah, it was just airplane flu
23:07 jnthn eww
23:07 nothingmuch it only ruined pittsburgh
23:07 nothingmuch the other legs of the trip were successful
23:07 nothingmuch most importantly: http://gallery.woobling.org/cathedral_peak, http://gallery.woobling.org/after_six
23:07 nothingmuch also got to go mountain biking in santa cruz
23:08 nothingmuch and the big NP in Maine
23:08 nothingmuch i forget its name
23:08 nothingmuch Acadia
23:08 nothingmuch usaw many friends
23:08 nothingmuch anyway, fun times
23:09 jnthn Wow, looks like awesome fun.
23:10 jnthn nothingmuch: Planning to do YAPC::Asia?
23:11 jnthn masak: "Note that we haven't even bothered to define the trait we're using. Wonder when that'll bite us?" - in the future, it may have to be "sooner than it does now"
23:12 masak jnthn: glad to hear that.
23:12 wayland_ joined #perl6
23:12 masak jnthn: I was actually surprised that I got away with sticking a bareword into the code like that.
23:13 masak jnthn: also, I think you'll have to explain the reasoning behind the parameter list to trait_mod:<is>. I did a double-take on that one.
23:14 jnthn Text::CSV.parse-file($filename, :output($type)); # :output($type) is _so_ cool
23:14 nothingmuch jnthn: yp
23:14 nothingmuch also climbing in .tw and Myogi in Japan: http://i-cjw.com/blog/2009/06/28/where-eagles-darent/
23:14 jnthn If it does what I think it does...
23:14 masak jnthn: I know! I hope to blog about it soon. :)
23:14 masak jnthn: it does.
23:15 masak jnthn: still mulling over how to combine it with typed attributes, though.
23:15 masak that was one of the problems I ran into this evening.
23:15 jnthn Mozes introspect the types of the attributes
23:15 jnthn erm
23:15 jnthn You can ...
23:15 masak true.
23:15 masak maybe that's the solution.
23:15 masak but even then, how do I convert from a Str to... something arbitrary?
23:16 masak there'd have to be an adapter function sent along.
23:18 jnthn masak: Rely on coercion, perhaps.
23:18 jnthn $type($thingy-you-read)
23:18 masak jnthn: aye, that might work.
23:19 jnthn (yes, nyi, but maybe you can talk some Rakudo dev into it ;-))
23:19 masak :)
23:19 jnthn masak: I'd avoid defining your own coercion mechanism without good reason.
23:19 * masak will think a bit more about it
23:20 masak I have a feeling people will like :output(MyType). so it's worth it to make it work in many of the common cases. typed attributes is definitely a common case.
23:21 jnthn *nod*
23:21 jnthn masak++ # awesome post
23:21 jnthn One of my favorites so far.
23:21 masak thanks. :)
23:22 jnthn I'm really excited to see the things people are starting to create in Perl 6.
23:22 masak lately, I've come to focus on showing bare-metal thinking rather than high-level discussion in the Web.pm posts. I think that constitutes an improvement.
23:24 jnthn masak: It can be nice to see the big picture once in a while, but yes, I'm enjoying it.
23:24 * jnthn hasn't actually done a high-level post for ages.
23:24 jnthn I think I may do one in late Nov / early Dec.
23:24 masak I think we'll be building up to the big picture as we approach week 20.
23:24 jnthn Which marks the 2 year point.
23:25 masak wow. 2 years.
23:25 jnthn (2 years of my involvement in Rakudo, that is.)
23:25 jnthn Yes, it scares me too.
23:25 jnthn I really didn't know what I was getting myself into.
23:27 masak :)
23:30 masak I'm glad I got to blogging week 14 today. I think this marks the first Web.pm week that was actually a week long. :P
23:31 jnthn It's OK, I have a liberal definition of "week" for my grant too.
23:31 nbrown joined #perl6
23:31 jnthn Well, "month"
23:31 jnthn :-)
23:32 jnthn I actually did get my current one done closer to on time than the previous one. :-)
23:32 masak I'm not sure how to count with Web.pm.
23:32 masak technically, I'm doing ihrd's weeks now, and my part is finished.
23:33 jnthn Well, to me the important thing is: there's visible progress in the right direction.
23:33 masak nod.
23:33 jnthn And Web.pm certainly feels that way to me.
23:34 masak to me too.
23:34 masak there's just so _much_ to do! :/
23:34 masak and by that, I don't necessarily mean the parts of Web.pm that fall within the grant.
23:34 masak those parts are pretty much wrapped up already.
23:35 * jnthn knows the feeling of so _much_ to do.
23:36 * wayland76 does too, with his 6 or so perl 6 projects :)
23:38 * jnthn tries to plan what on earth to do this week.
23:38 * masak washes up after the baking session
23:38 * wayland76 is glad jnthn is on earth this week
23:38 * wayland76 wonders whether jnthn is planning to do role {...} this week :)
23:38 jnthn Yeah, hacking on the moon last week was a real drag.
23:38 jnthn AWFUL ping times.
23:39 wayland76 ...and the added danger of becoming a ..... lunatic :)
23:39 jnthn wayland76: erm, role Foo { ... }?
23:39 wayland76 jnthn: Yes :)
23:39 jnthn wayland76: Ouch.
23:40 wayland76 I expect it's not ready to be done yet, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask :)
23:40 jnthn wayland76: I'll keep it in mind. Maybe.
23:41 jnthn Hmm. Ideally I'd do a Rakudo day tomorrow. In reality, I probably need to clear up a couple of non-Perl 6 bits.
23:41 wayland76 Btw, is it supposed to tell me what file an error is in, as well as the line #?
23:41 jnthn If it knows it.
23:41 jnthn Well, if it can know it. If you think it should be telling you, it probably should be.
23:42 jnthn File rakudobug if you've got a way to produce a missing one where it should not be missing.
23:42 wayland76 ok, because I had a project that was blocking on that -- I'll revisit it, and see if I can narrow down the bug, and submit a bug :)
23:43 jnthn OK, thanks. :-)
23:44 masak wow. it's very late.
23:45 masak I'd better start trying to sleep now, so that I'll succeed before it's morning...
23:45 masak see y'all tomorrow!
23:47 nothingmuch $x is to addition what factorization is to product
23:47 nothingmuch what's the word I'm looking for?
23:48 japhb nothingmuch, what constraints do you want on the things you're breaking the sum into?
23:49 japhb (factorization has a clear constraint: the factors must be integers)
23:49 nothingmuch <p>The expression <tt>1|2|3 + 1|2|3 == 5</tt> that at least one of the permuted sums is equal to <tt>5</tt>. Although it can't tell you which ____ amount to 5, the ability to do <tt>1|2|3 + 1|2|3</tt> is useful in its own right.</p>
23:49 japhb summands?
23:50 japhb (which is actually a match for 'factors' not 'factorization')
23:50 jnthn *nod*
23:50 jnthn summands fits there.
23:50 nothingmuch yes, thanks =)
23:50 nothingmuch yeah i rephrased it more since I asked ;-)
23:50 jnthn I can't think of something to put in the $x though.
23:50 * nothingmuch neither
23:51 wayland76 Or operands is the general term, if you prefer that
23:51 nothingmuch but if we refactor that we don't need to =)
23:52 jauaor joined #perl6
23:53 japhb jnthn, what is the 'root_new' op?
23:53 * japhb reading src/builtins/globals.pir
23:54 jnthn japhb: Allows you to create an instane of something in a different HLL.
23:54 jnthn Or potentially in a different HLL.
23:54 jnthn Normally new is relative to the current HLL.
23:55 japhb jnthn, OK, gotcha.

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