Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-08-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:16 pmichaud rakudo:  class A { };  multi sub infix:<+>(A $a, $b) { 5 };   say A + 1;
00:16 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
00:16 pmichaud \o/
00:18 pmichaud rakudo:  class A { };  multi sub infix:<+>(A $a, $b) { 5 };   say (* + 1).(A);
00:18 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
00:18 pmichaud \o/!
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00:32 dalek rakudo: 81d6216 | pmichaud++ |  (6 files):
00:32 dalek rakudo: Move prefix:<-> into the setting.
00:32 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/81d6216f5681a0ada0f6bc4eb0419950e030b486
00:40 pmichaud rakudo: say -(3|4)
00:40 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
00:43 quietfanatic Is there a way to make a tail call in p6?
00:43 quietfanatic like goto &sub in p5?
00:43 pmichaud yes
00:43 pmichaud (looking it up again in S06)
00:44 pmichaud nextsame and nextwith
00:45 quietfanatic But that just calls the next multi, doesn't it?
00:45 pmichaud right
00:45 pmichaud I guess not, then.
00:45 pmichaud (I was probably mis-remembering the 'tail call' bit.)  Although perhaps S04 has something.
00:45 quietfanatic Oh wait, there may be a method form
00:45 cognominal I suppose that's up to the compiler to decide
00:46 quietfanatic rakudo: sub a {say 1}; sub b {&a.nextsame; say 2}; a()
00:46 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
00:46 quietfanatic rakudo: sub a {say 1}; sub b {&a.nextsame; say 2}; b()
00:46 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
00:46 quietfanatic huh
00:49 quietfanatic nextsame and nextwith do make tail calls, but apparently not to an arbitrary routine.
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01:21 dalek rakudo: d0b88cf | pmichaud++ | Configure.pl:
01:21 dalek rakudo: Check for some more needed Parrot files during Configure.pl .
01:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d0b88cf04a18714c1bbf7b2ad625e6d01ba4bc69
01:21 dalek rakudo: 586076e | pmichaud++ |  (5 files):
01:21 dalek rakudo: Move prefix:<~> into setting.
01:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/586076e86a1dd9d7a593342d86efdd5105db7b91
01:23 jnthn pmichaud++ # nice work on operating overloading!
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01:43 cognominal jnthn++ : blizkost now compiles on Mac OS X
01:44 pmichaud jnthn: thanks :-)
01:45 pmichaud jnthn: even nicer, I ended up just doing it all in p6 settings instead of any special PIR-to-Rakudo conversions
01:46 pmichaud jnthn: even more bizarre:  on many of my spectest runs, the p6 versions end up being _faster_ than the PIR versions.  Which means you've either done a great job on dispatch speed for Perl6MultiSubs, or we don't do so well at dispatch of Parrot MultiSubs, or both :-)
01:46 pmichaud (not much faster, just slightly faster.  More importantly:  NOT SLOWER)
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01:54 pmichaud I know that  infix:<==>  is defined as   +$a === +$b    and infix:<eq>   is defined as ~$a === ~$b
01:54 pmichaud how about the other relational ops -- are they defined similarly in terms of infix:<===> or infix:<cmp> ?
01:55 pmichaud in particular,  infix:<le>, infix:«<=», etc?
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02:04 TimToady depends on where you use the circularity saw
02:04 pmichaud so, implementation-dependent?
02:05 pmichaud (for now, if nothing else?)
02:05 TimToady code that depends on where the circularity saw cuts is probably erroneous
02:05 TimToady or at least non-portable
02:06 pmichaud yeah.
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02:14 pugs_svn r28091 | carlin++ | Fixed XHTML validation error
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02:46 dalek rakudo: aab4bf9 | pmichaud++ | src/classes/ (3 files):
02:46 dalek rakudo: infix:<===> should not be defined in terms of infix:<==> or infix:<eq>.
02:46 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/aab4bf9ad6dcd1aa10ae5faa13855c44b00951f1
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03:13 s1n pmichaud: will you be there on saturday?
03:13 pmichaud I plan to be there, yes.
03:13 s1n did you see the tentative plan?
03:13 s1n i scraped it right from your last talk
03:13 pmichaud I didn't see it yet, no.
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03:21 pugs_svn r28092 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec] Fudge some now-failing tests that don't quite make sense to me
03:21 pugs_svn r28092 | (exactly what Perl 6 feature is being tested?)
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03:23 * frew__ looks forward to getting rakudo compiling again
03:23 frew__ I haven't had it working since the changes to allow it to build from an installed parrot
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03:24 pugs_svn r28093 | lwall++ | [irclog/camelia] unbox the bug, quietfanatic++
03:28 dalek rakudo: f351f60 | pmichaud++ |  (4 files):
03:28 dalek rakudo: Move infix:<ne>, infix:<!eq>, infix:<!=>, and infix:<!==> into setting.
03:28 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f351f6099c2b0b83a9a8ef70d0fe5bf940125b29
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03:50 dukeleto quietfanatic: parrot has something called ".tailcall"
03:51 * dukeleto is taking blizkost out for a drive
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03:57 mikehh rakudo (f351f60) builds on parrot r40835, make test / make spectest (up to r28093) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
03:57 mikehh rakudo (f351f60) - t/spec/S05-match/capturing-contexts.rakudo - TODO passed: 14
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04:07 dukeleto "blizkost fails to compile on darwin/perl 5.10.0" (97 lines) at http://nopaste.snit.ch/17710
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04:37 pmichaud frew__: rakudo doesn't build for you?
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04:50 dukeleto jonathan: ping
04:52 quietfanatic dukeleto: Ah, that yields it possible, though it'd take a Q:PIR.
04:52 quietfanatic And of course it can't be delegated to a sub.  (Unless it's a macro)
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05:20 pugs_svn r28094 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge a passing test for RT #64946.
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05:38 pmichaud http://use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39543  # latest Rakudo day report
05:43 JimmyZ pmichaud++
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05:46 pugs_svn r28095 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge passing test for RT #68680.
05:48 dukeleto pmichaud: latest parrot installs the files that you wanted with "make install" instead of "make install-dev"
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07:16 pugs_svn r28096 | carlin++ | [Differences.pod] Removing what I think is a superfluous =head1 and possibly the cause of the double-bullets on the HTML converted page
07:24 azawawi joined #perl6
07:24 azawawi hi
07:24 dukeleto seen jonahtan
07:24 dukeleto azawawi: howdy
07:25 wayland76 @seen jnthn
07:25 lambdabot jnthn is in #perl6. I last heard jnthn speak 6h 2m 1s ago.
07:25 dukeleto msg jnthn i have created some issues for blizkost at http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues
07:26 dukeleto @msg jnthn i have created some issues for blizkost at http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues
07:26 lambdabot Not enough privileges
07:26 dukeleto darn
07:26 azawawi shouldnt rakudo's "perl6.exe --version" report the actual release and date instead of "This is Rakudo Perl 6."?
07:26 wayland76 phenny: tell dukeleto to use you
07:26 phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when dukeleto is around.
07:26 dukeleto ?
07:26 phenny dukeleto: 07:26Z <wayland76> tell dukeleto to use you
07:27 azawawi moritz_: pingo
07:27 wayland76 dukeleto: You have to specifically tell things to phenny, or he doesn't respond
07:28 wayland76 phenny: tell pmichaud azawawi thinks that perl6 --version should report the actual version too :)
07:28 phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
07:29 dukeleto phenny: tell jnthn to check his messages in #parrot
07:29 phenny dukeleto: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
07:29 Su-Shee joined #perl6
07:29 Su-Shee good morning!
07:29 dukeleto Su-Shee: hola
07:30 * wayland76 consider's Gandalf's respnse to "Good morning", and keeps his mouth shut :)
07:30 azawawi wayland76: im thinking of releasing a Six upgrade installer for strawberry's "Almost Six" on a weekly and release-based timeline...that's why i may need perl6 --version
07:31 Su-Shee wayland76: :))
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07:52 carlin There is an open ticket about --version
07:52 carlin rt #68752
07:58 sjohnson carlin thanks for the bot a few days ago
07:59 carlin sjohnson: that's alright :)
07:59 sjohnson is it okay if i saw the bot was cute?
08:00 carlin why was that?
08:01 ihrd hi there
08:02 ihrd I created Perl6 modules list on the perl6 wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl6_modules_list
08:02 rbaumer joined #perl6
08:03 sjohnson oops, say*
08:03 ihrd Just as first approach
08:04 ihrd I think page on the perl6.org will be better one
08:05 Su-Shee ihrd: cool, I've wanted to put something like this in the redesign anyway.
08:05 carlin sjohnson: depends why you think it was cute
08:07 ihrd Su-Shee: very good, do you have redesign drafts?
08:07 ihrd I can help with markup if your need any help
08:08 sjohnson carlin: for good reasons, it's oaky
08:08 sjohnson okay*
08:08 ihrd and I am dreaming about RSS feed with new perl6 modules
08:10 sjohnson i just liked your initiative, carlin
08:14 carlin heh, wasn't that hard
08:14 carlin I'm surprised no one did it before me
08:15 carlin correction: wasn't that hard with only getting rakudo to work
08:17 Su-Shee ihrd: drafts are here: http://sushee.no-ip.org/p6p/ will do some stuff this weekend.
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08:24 ihrd Su-Shee: ok, so let me know how can I help :)
08:24 ihrd left #perl6
08:25 Su-Shee ok :)
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08:37 carlin someone should update the /topic to point to perl6.org
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08:42 Topic for #perl6is now »ö« | http://perl6.org/ | nopaste: http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
08:43 Juerd carlin: You can also do this yourself. The topic is not locked (channel mode +t). :)
08:44 carlin oh
08:44 * carlin doesn't understand IRC flags :p
08:52 szbalint :)
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09:33 jnthn o/
09:33 phenny jnthn: 07:29Z <dukeleto> tell jnthn to check his messages in #parrot
09:34 dukeleto jnthn: hola
09:34 jnthn dukeleto: hi
09:35 cotto joined #perl6
09:35 dukeleto jnthn: i made a bunch of commits and created some issues on blizkost's github
09:37 jnthn dukeleto: nice
09:37 dukeleto jnthn: i can get the repl to start up, but I get $ ./blizkost  > print "I am blizkost!\n";Class 'P5Interpreter' not found
09:37 jnthn dukeleto: See, you're fulfilling this dream that I'd write the first bit of this, and then @other would write the test. ;-)
09:38 dukeleto jnthn: yes, I got the test actually working and failing quite hard :)
09:38 jnthn dukeleto: :-)
09:38 jnthn dukeleto: I'm guessing it must somehow be failing to load the PMC library.
09:39 jnthn I'm not sure why it would fail there, but work otherwise though.
09:39 dukeleto i very much dislike that load_bytecode in parrot fails silently
09:39 dukeleto jnthn: the harness gets further
09:40 jnthn Yeah, it rather sucks that it fails without telling what/why.
09:40 dukeleto jnthn: $P1 = $P0.'command_line'(args) is what kills the harness
09:40 dukeleto jnthn: positional inside named args at position 3
09:40 jnthn That's odd...
09:41 dukeleto jnthn: can you make sense of that?
09:41 jnthn OK, I'll have to dig in to that, but I'm kinda tied up right now.
09:41 jnthn No, that sounds...odd.
09:42 dukeleto jnthn: full output at http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues#issue/2
09:43 jnthn oh hmm, it looks like it's something about the signature of compile...
09:43 jnthn If it doesn't already take a slurpy parameter, you could try adding one.
09:43 jnthn To see if that makes the problem go away.
09:45 dukeleto jnthn: i tried every permutation of named and slurpy params :(
09:45 jnthn aww
09:45 * jnthn wonders if eval looked sane
09:47 dukeleto jnthn: coke told me about dumper.pbc in the parrot runtime, but I can't get that to work either
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09:50 dukeleto i am going to run against that wall a few more times
09:52 jnthn dukeleto: OK - I'll look too when I get a spare moment (things are kinda crazy here for next couple of days).
09:53 dukeleto jnthn: at your leisure :)
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11:12 nothingmuch moritz_: your openid sucks: http://blog.woobling.org/2009/05/your-openid-sucks.html
11:17 M_o_C nothingmuch: Cool :)
11:18 nothingmuch spread the love =)
11:18 nothingmuch OpenID is misunderstood. it's a shame, it's really well thought out
11:18 nothingmuch i want to cry every time I see a Yahoo OpenID in use
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11:21 M_o_C Can't exactly comment on that, it seems like I should learn more about OpenID first :)
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12:17 pugs_svn r28097 | ruoso++ | [perl6.org] revert r28089, since it made the layout break in systems with bigger fonts
12:19 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:19 phenny pmichaud: 07:28Z <wayland76> tell pmichaud azawawi thinks that perl6 --version should report the actual version too :)
12:20 pmichaud phenny: tell wayland76  I think perl6 --version should report the actual version.  But I don't know of a clean way to do that yet... patches welcome.
12:20 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when wayland76 is around.
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12:20 takadonet morning all
12:21 pmichaud good morning, takadonet
12:22 takadonet how are you doing pmichaud?
12:22 pmichaud doing well today
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12:36 takadonet pretty quiet in here today....
12:36 pmichaud It is.
12:39 takadonet Hopefully that means people are hacking with or on rakudo :)
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12:49 smuj rakudo: my $x=10; ++$x; say $x;
12:49 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«11␤»
12:50 smuj rakudo: my $x=10; --++$x; say $x;
12:50 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
12:50 smuj rakudo: my $x=10; ++--++--++$x; say $x;
12:50 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«11␤»
12:50 smuj rakudo: my $x=10; +-+-+-+$x; say $x;
12:50 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
12:51 smuj rakudo: my $x=10; $x+-+-+-+$x; say $x;
12:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
12:52 smuj perl6: my $x=10; $x+-+-+-+$x; say $x;
12:52 p6eval elf 28097: OUTPUT«Useless use of addition (+) in void context at (eval 129) line 4.␤10␤»
12:52 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«10␤»
13:06 smuj rakudo: say "5"..8
13:06 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5678␤»
13:06 smuj rakudo: say "5"..9
13:06 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950515253545556575859606162636465666768697071727374757677787980818283848586878889␤»
13:06 smuj rakudo: say "-5"..9
13:07 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
13:07 smuj perl6: say "-5"..9
13:07 p6eval elf 28097: OUTPUT«-5-4-3-2-10123456789␤»
13:07 p6eval ..rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
13:07 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
13:12 smuj perl6: say "-5"..50
13:12 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
13:12 p6eval ..elf 28097: OUTPUT«-5-4-3-2-101234567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950␤»
13:12 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«-5-6-7-8-9.0.1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9/0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9000102030405060708091011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950␤»
13:12 smuj rakudo: say "-5"..50
13:12 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
13:13 smuj rakudo: say "hello"
13:13 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«hello␤»
13:13 pmichaud "-5"..50 is considered an empty range
13:14 pmichaud rakudo:  say "-5" gt 50
13:14 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:14 smuj gives me 5 here!
13:14 pmichaud rakudo:  say "-5" gt "50"
13:14 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
13:14 pmichaud checking.
13:15 pmichaud oh, it's timing out
13:15 smuj oops, nope, "5"..50 gives me 5 here
13:16 smuj "-5"..50 just loops - ^C required
13:16 pmichaud well, I'll see about cleaning up the range implementation a bit, but some things are just weird in the Perl 6 spec with respect to ranges
13:16 smuj yeah, so I've found out :)
13:17 smuj not a problem, just playing!
13:18 pmichaud I'm guessing that "-5"..50  should produce (according to the spec):   "-5", "-6", "-7", "-8", "-9"
13:18 pmichaud (five elements)
13:19 smuj it's the number 9 which confuses me (and maybe Rakudo)
13:19 smuj rakudo: say "5"..8
13:19 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5678␤»
13:19 smuj rakudo: say "5"..9
13:19 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950515253545556575859606162636465666768697071727374757677787980818283848586878889␤»
13:19 pmichaud rakudo:  say "5".."9"
13:20 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«56789␤»
13:20 pmichaud rakudo:  say ~9.chars
13:20 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
13:20 pmichaud rakudo say (~9).chars
13:20 pmichaud rakudo: say (~9).chars
13:20 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
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13:20 pmichaud for some reason the ..9 is producing a string with 2 characters
13:21 pmichaud rakudo:  say ("5"..9).perl
13:21 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«"5"..9␤»
13:21 smuj yeah, 99 produces 3 etc
13:21 pmichaud or there might be a problem with computing the endpoint in string ranges
13:21 PerlJam good morning #perl6
13:21 PerlJam "5"..9 looks like it's going 5..90 to me.
13:22 pmichaud well, "90" is the first string that is gt "9"
13:23 pmichaud all of the others are le
13:24 smuj in $x..$y should $y try to transform into the same type as $x?
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13:26 pmichaud smuj: I don't know.
13:26 smuj k
13:26 smuj I'll leave ya in peace now! :)
13:26 PerlJam maybe it should fial
13:26 PerlJam er, fail
13:27 PerlJam (not dwimmy, I know)
13:27 pmichaud also, the use of the word "longer" in S03:2962 bugs me a bi
13:27 pmichaud *bit
13:29 PerlJam pmichaud: why?
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14:09 carlin rakudo: sub foo() {}; multi sub foo() {};
14:09 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Redefinition of routine foo␤push_pmc() not implemented in class 'Sub'␤»
14:09 PerlJam carlin: that only works if you've got a proto in place before hand.
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14:14 carlin PerlJam: I know, I don't think the push_pmc bit is right
14:14 carlin and if you do that twice from the command line ...
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14:49 colomon rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; subset Positive of Integer where { $_.n > 0 }; my Integer $i = Positive.new(n => 5); say $i.WHAT;
14:49 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«()␤»
14:54 colomon rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; subset Positive of Integer where { $_.n > 0 }; my Integer $i = Positive.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
14:54 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«set_integer_native() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤in Main (/tmp/XrlwGqCvJc:2)␤»
14:54 colomon Okay, that I had not expected.
14:54 carlin I get that if I run it twice in a row in the CLI
14:55 colomon : rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; my Integer $i = Integer.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
14:55 carlin I didn't think the evalbot could show those types of errors though
14:56 carlin rakudo: sub foo;
14:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Malformed routine definition at line 2, near "foo;"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
14:56 carlin rakudo: foo
14:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
14:56 carlin hrm
14:58 colomon rakudo: class Integer { has $.n; }; my Integer $i = Integer.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
14:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«set_integer_native() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤in Main (/tmp/MFJd1dgG0Q:2)␤»
14:59 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; my Frobozz $i = Frobozz.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
14:59 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
14:59 colomon Ah, Integer may be a reserved word of some sort?
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15:01 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz { where $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
15:01 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "{ where $_"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
15:01 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.n;
15:01 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«5␤»
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15:02 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i ~~ Frobozz;
15:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:02 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i ~~ Baz;
15:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:03 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.isa(Frobozz);
15:03 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:04 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Frobozz $i = Baz.new(n => 5); say $i.isa(Baz);
15:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:05 colomon rakudo: class Frobozz { has $.n; }; subset Baz of Frobozz where { $_.n > 0 }; my Baz $i = Frobozz.new(n => 5); say $i.isa(Baz);
15:05 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:05 colomon aha!  That's finally got it.
15:06 colomon in the August release that returned true.  In the current build, it returns false.
15:06 colomon Not sure what the right answer should be.
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15:29 yath hm. would be cool to have something like B::Deparse for rakudo that adds a comment to the statement in which synopsis i'd have to look ;)
15:32 hobbsc joined #perl6
15:32 hobbsc anyone have issues/reservations about perl6 in production environments?
15:34 KyleHa That may depend on what you're producing.
15:34 sjn hobbsc: like as in aeroplanes or nuclear power plants?
15:35 KyleHa Do lives hang in the balance, or just your own patience?
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15:40 hobbsc hobbsc: nah, municipal stuff
15:40 hobbsc just using it for system glue/automation
15:40 carlin "Approaching turbulence, raise the Aircraft set_integer_native() not implemented ft"
15:41 pugs_svn r28098 | lwall++ | [S03] qualify "longer" to mean graphemes for pmichaud++
15:41 carlin hobbsc: for most tasks it's just as ready as Perl 5
15:44 hobbsc thanks for the input
15:50 Tene hobbsc: Perl 6 in theory?  No.  Rakudo running on Parrot today?  Yes, I'd have reservations.
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15:55 hobbsc 5.10 seems to be working well, i considered upgrading across the board
15:55 hobbsc may be too early yet
16:04 TimToady the design is not entirely stable yet either; we've made no backward compatibility guarantees to the current spec
16:07 yath what's the state of ponie, btw? or is there a successor?
16:08 TimToady the ponie effort was premature and was declared dead at one point
16:08 yath hm
16:08 pmichaud I think the current successor (just started) is http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/39530
16:08 TimToady there will certainly be some kind of successor, but I don't know if it will be called ponie
16:08 TimToady there are actually several approaches to p5 interop, and we'll probably try them all at some point
16:09 yath i wonder if it's possible to embed perl5 inside rakudo and use O.pm for creating PIR or so.
16:09 yath ah
16:09 mrsaturn_ joined #perl6
16:09 yath blizkost apparently does that 8-)
16:10 mrsaturn g'morning everyone
16:10 pmichaud good morning, mrsaturn
16:11 hudnix joined #perl6
16:12 yath hm, blizkost looks cool.
16:13 TimToady mrsaturn: we're looking forward to your rings disappearing in November :)
16:15 mrsaturn :(
16:15 TimToady temporarily
16:17 pmichaud -O-
16:17 lucs http://geology.com/news/2009/saturns-rings-to-disappear-on-811.shtml
16:20 TimToady ah, someone messed the data around
16:20 TimToady I was reading an article from the other side of the pond, and they thought 8/11 meant 11/8
16:21 TimToady interesting
16:21 mrsaturn I knew 18 days ago wasn't november
16:21 TimToady well, mrsaturn, you're off the hook for another 23 years or so.
16:21 TimToady 'course, it's also possible that someone changed the spec
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16:38 quietfanatic Are multi subs supposed to be able to take constant named arguments?
16:38 quietfanatic multi doit (type<a>, *@args) {...}
16:38 quietfanatic that's :type<a>
16:39 ruoso quietfanatic, I guess they can... the same way as they can take constant positional argumetns
16:40 quietfanatic Just Rakudo hasn't implemented them yet.  I can work around that for now.
16:40 ruoso std: multi (:type<a>, *@args) {... }
16:40 ruoso oops
16:40 p6eval std 28098: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Malformed parameter at /tmp/LvZHWTfOfI line 1:␤------> [32mmulti ([33m⏏[31m:type<a>, *@args) {... }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤       name␤   parameter␤ signature␤       whitespace␤FAILED 00:03 40m␤»
16:40 ruoso std: multi a (:type<a>, *@args) {... }
16:40 p6eval std 28098: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Malformed parameter at /tmp/wSGsrKdEka line 1:␤------> [32mmulti a ([33m⏏[31m:type<a>, *@args) {... }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     name␤   parameter␤ signature␤       whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 39m␤»
16:41 quietfanatic Oh, ruoso.  I saw you reverted my change.   I don't mind, but would it be better if we shrank the header to line it up with the boxes?
16:41 ruoso quietfanatic, the problem is that the difference scales when the fonts are bigger
16:41 quietfanatic ...looks like that doesn't work.
16:42 quietfanatic Yeah.  I made it scale larger depending on font size, but there's screen size limitations too.
16:42 quietfanatic What would be ideal is to make the boxes never have to squeeze to two columns.
16:42 ruoso yeah.. 50 em or so requires a huge screen for bigger fonts
16:43 ruoso quietfanatic, that could be made by making their size in %
16:43 Su-Shee joined #perl6
16:43 quietfanatic Yes, but their statically-determined height means the text could conceivable overflow below them.
16:44 Su-Shee yeah. weekend. my perl instead of office perl. :)
16:44 quietfanatic On a small font size/large screen, the header looks crooked on top right now.
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17:27 TimToady there are no good synonyms for 'context'; thinking about changing 'my $FOO is context' to 'your $*FOO'
17:28 TimToady (can't use 'context' as declarator because it looks too much like 'constant')
17:30 ruoso TimToady, your is not a bad idea at all
17:31 TimToady it should really probably be 'our', but that one's taken, and probably can't be swiped
17:31 * ruoso keeps voting for the death of the globals
17:32 TimToady well, I'm close to at least having more things default to 'my' rather than 'our'
17:32 TimToady list subs
17:32 TimToady *like
17:32 TimToady goodness, neural programming from BASIC...
17:32 ruoso that is certainly going to be a shock for p5 programmers, but I do support the idea
17:32 TimToady but the fact is, we're already saying that multi dispatch only looks in lexical scopes
17:33 TimToady so there's not much point in having subs with package aliases at all
17:33 TimToady unless you really want one
17:33 TimToady in which case you can always say 'our sub'
17:33 ruoso I wonder if that is really a declarator
17:33 ruoso since it's just "declare a my with an alias in the package"
17:34 TimToady well, other way around, really
17:34 TimToady you don't get it cloned
17:34 ruoso not cloned, aliased
17:35 TimToady talking about cloned closures
17:35 TimToady they get separate my vars
17:35 TimToady whereas our vars all point to the same var
17:35 TimToady so the alias is in the lexical pad, not in the package
17:36 ruoso TimToady, hmmm... alright...
17:36 ruoso but defaulting subs to my have another side
17:36 TimToady but yes, I'd like the default to be right, and 'our' doesn't feel like the right default for subs
17:37 TimToady classes maybe
17:37 rfordinal3643asd left #perl6
17:37 ruoso people is used to be able to call Package::foo() even without importing the symbol
17:37 ruoso in fact, sometimes I only "require" instead of "using" some module to avoid the clutter in my lexical scope
17:37 ruoso (in p5 I mean)
17:38 TimToady yes, we have a similar problem with constants that are 'my', which is why (for the moment) they are 'our'
17:38 TimToady but I don't like it
17:39 ruoso it makes a lot of sense for infra-estructural multi-subs to be "my" and "is export"
17:39 TimToady for instance, if enum Bool <False True> is 'my', you can't (currently) say Bool::True
17:39 ruoso but if we think in plain "structured programming", having them our by default is sane
17:39 TimToady so I think that exported things need to be lookupable
17:39 TimToady as if they were packagey
17:40 TimToady even if they're really 'my'
17:40 ruoso TimToady, you mean having they as I was thinking "our" worked
17:40 ruoso just aliased in the package?
17:41 TimToady which is presumably not a problem for constants, since they don't need cloning
17:41 TimToady but then that's pretty much the same as saying that constants default to 'our'
17:41 * ruoso .oO ( "multi foo is export is global {...}" )
17:42 ruoso where "is global" installs an alias in the package, in contrast to "our" that declares in the package and alias locally
17:43 TimToady seems relatively useless to me
17:44 ruoso it's indeed a minor semantic thing
17:44 TimToady and also rather opaque to newbies
17:44 ruoso but maybe just saying "if you want regular structured-programming package routines, use 'our multi foo'"
17:45 TimToady you have a very strange definition of structured programming
17:45 ruoso I mean in the sense that people who does structured programming expect the language to look like
17:46 TimToady stuctured programming looks like Pascal
17:46 ruoso routines in namespaces
17:46 TimToady not in Pascal
17:46 * ruoso tries to remember how namespaces were in non-object pascal
17:46 mrsaturn joined #perl6
17:47 TimToady routines were essentially lexically scoped
17:47 mrsaturn joined #perl6
17:47 TimToady but structured programming historically means, mostly, avoiding goto
17:48 TimToady blocks should only have only one entry point (and one exit in the strict form)
17:48 ruoso well.. I mean it as opposed to OO programming (inside the imperative-programming universe)
17:48 TimToady okay, the no-dispatcher universe, maybe
17:49 TimToady I don't know of a good term for that, really
17:49 * ruoso usually hear "structured" ;)
17:50 TimToady I fear the term has come to mean something approaching "dark ages"
17:50 ruoso hahaehae
17:50 TimToady they didn't seem dark at the time :)
17:51 ruoso anyway... people working with without-OO-imperative-programing expect namespaces to behave like "our"
17:53 ruoso although Pascal doesn't have namespaces apparently... and php only got proper namespaces when it got OO...
17:53 ruoso but in p5, people uses the namespaces a lot, I think...
17:53 ruoso when doing non-OO-imperative-programmign (NOOIP)
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18:02 JimmyZ Good before-dawn, #perl6
18:04 Su-Shee JimmyZ: a good before-dusk to you. :)
18:06 JimmyZ Su-Shee: thanks
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18:41 pugs_svn r28099 | fglock++ | svn-commit.2.tmp
18:43 TimToady er...
18:44 jaldhar joined #perl6
18:44 ruoso now *that's* an unusual commit message
18:44 smuj_ joined #perl6
18:45 ruoso TimToady, anyway... what do you think about the idea of splitting the "Conceptual Types" from the "Storage Types" when dealing with numbers?
18:47 TimToady that's more or less how it's already split up; Num is supposed to represent what normal people think numbers are
18:47 TimToady normal != mathematician
18:48 TimToady however, certain subset types are privileged in indicating promises about storability
18:48 TimToady such as Int
18:48 sjohnson common man == Num?
18:48 Tene Apparently Boeing is currently debating about whether or not to migrate their support scripts from perl.
18:48 TimToady s/man/people/ :)
18:49 sjohnson how about something to represent numbers as imagined by toddlers too :)
18:49 Tene Also whether to migrate them, if they do, to python or Perl 6
18:50 ruoso TimToady, er... you don't need to be a mathematician to know that about imaginary numbers
18:50 PerlJam Tene: are they planning on migrating 2 years from now if they do?
18:50 Tene Apparently.
18:51 ruoso I mean... Complex ~~ Num being false is very much weird... and I'm a social scientist
18:51 PerlJam Tene: That's one of those business decisions I have trouble understanding sometimes.  If they have something that works in perl, why change?   (unless they honestly believe perl is dead)
18:52 TimToady well, maybe they're having trouble finding programmers
18:52 Su-Shee PerlJam: the main reason I heard over the last year here in germany: trouble finding developers
18:52 TimToady also Boeing's perl probably includes a fair bit of JPL
18:52 sjohnson nietzsche python users would say that
18:52 Tene They're having a lot of trouble finding new hires that know perl.
18:52 PerlJam If they're having trouble finding perl programmers, then perl is dead in their area.
18:53 sjohnson i would love to work fulltime with perl 5 / 6
18:53 Tene The majority of new college grads that apply know and use python.
18:53 PerlJam Tene: but see,  that's the weird thing ... so what? If they know python, then perl shouldn't be too difficult to pick up.
18:53 Su-Shee Tene: here java.
18:53 ruoso problem is, scripting languages were all obscure for the formal education... then they started being subject of cs graduation in several colleges... but perl was left behind in that respect
18:54 Su-Shee PerlJam: well, I know _very_ few python/java people actually willing to switch. ;)
18:54 PerlJam Knowing a specific language is just a fine skin over the important stuff.
18:54 sjohnson fwiw, i had to learn Perl because someone wrote our book data processor in it
18:54 sjohnson thank Goodness for that
18:54 PerlJam (knowing the concepts and how to design things and how to solve problems is way more important than knowing a specific languag)
18:54 sjohnson otherwise i wouldn't have picked it up
18:55 * ruoso had perl as his first serious language...
18:55 sjohnson PerlJam true, but it is nice if you have that skill, and can program quickly with a language you are versatile in
18:55 Su-Shee perl was my first ever programming language...
18:55 PerlJam I'm certainly a "perl person", but I picked up python and ruby and php with no problems.
18:55 PerlJam and haskell
18:55 PerlJam pugs++  :)
18:56 pugs_svn r28100 | fglock++ | mp6 update
18:56 sjohnson PerlJam, what are your brief thoughts on the Python/Ruby vs Perl debate?  if you don't want to answer here (or at all)... can you plz pm me?
18:56 PerlJam maybe that's a one-way relation though.
18:56 TimToady er...
18:56 PerlJam it only works out if you start as a perl person  :)
18:56 Su-Shee PerlJam: me too - but: here, everybody I know who likes python simply doesn't consider a perl job. (not to mention the java fellows) - so very few (still existing) perl developer apply for a job..
18:57 PerlJam sjohnson: what debate?  It's not a contest.
18:57 takadonet The bioinformatics field uses Perl extensively but for anyone heavily lifting, we use C
18:58 PerlJam Su-Shee: that's like saying .... "I only work on Ford vehicles;  I won't work on Chevy or Chrysler"
18:58 * ruoso today refuses Java jobs
18:58 ruoso after 4 years of heavy suffering
18:58 Su-Shee PerlJam: well as long as it people and developers more or less have free picks what they work...
18:59 sjohnson was just wondering if you could mention if there are things you dislike about Ruby or Python
18:59 Su-Shee free choice? take a pick? I mixed up something..
18:59 PerlJam sjohnson: Implicit lexicals.
19:00 PerlJam There are very few language-level things that I dislike about either ruby or python.
19:00 PerlJam ruby feels more like perl though.
19:00 PerlJam (I guess that's as it should be)
19:00 sjohnson i don't like ruby's english word block start and ends
19:01 Su-Shee sjohnson: that's pretty nice, because {} on a german keyboard suck to type.
19:01 PerlJam sjohnson: Every language has some technical debt.   Perl, for a long time, still used EQ as a synonym for eq (for instance)
19:01 sjohnson Su-Shee... i could mail you a US keyboard if you like :)
19:02 Su-Shee sjohnson: i've tried, drives me crazy to switch - I still have to write german texts.. :)
19:02 TimToady new slogan: Perl 6 pays off your technical debt.
19:02 PerlJam sjohnson: Also, that's kind of part of their perl-nature too.
19:03 pmichaud TimToady: hmmm, does it?  ;-)
19:03 PerlJam sjohnson: I mean, TMTOWTDI works in other languages, albeit differently  :)
19:03 TimToady ...by making you a new technical loan :)
19:03 TimToady technical debt consolidation, yum
19:03 pmichaud Ah, the Federal Reserve approach to fixing the technical economy
19:03 pmichaud other languages have been making subprime loans, we convert them
19:03 sjohnson TimToady: while we're at it, can we make http://eppy7890.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/joe_camel.jpg the Perl 6 camel mascot?
19:04 pmichaud (Perl 6 already has a mascot :-)
19:04 Su-Shee sjohnson: oh god please no
19:05 PerlJam pmichaud: And TimToady controls inflation how?  :)
19:05 pmichaud PerlJam: Perl 6 is all about controlled expansion and extension of the language economy :)
19:05 sjohnson it's my imaginary mascot that is not public, because it reminds me of how cool and tough P6 is
19:06 TimToady joe camel only thinks he's cool
19:06 pmichaud I tend to think of P6 as being "cool and tough" in a more elegant sense than brute strength
19:06 PerlJam sjohnson: tough as in it'll beat you up?  or tough as in it fights for you?
19:06 Su-Shee sjohnson: strange.. I always think of perl 6 as being smooth and fluffy.. :)
19:06 sjohnson tough as in he is a lot more suited for any problem than Python or Ruby will ever be
19:07 pmichaud "the skillful warrior never has to fight"
19:07 TimToady and a camel that is stupid enough to smoke proves this how? :)
19:07 PerlJam sjohnson: That may be true, but it also may be beside the point if we can't get anyone but the echo chamber to use perl 6  ?)
19:07 PerlJam er :)
19:08 sjohnson TimToady: he isn't really inhaling that smoke, he's just trying to get young kids interested in Perl by his badboy image
19:08 PerlJam sjohnson: you're going downhill, fast.
19:08 PerlJam unless you're describing EvilPerl or something
19:09 TimToady I'm planning to win their hearts *before* they get to junior high school
19:09 TimToady Teach Your Baby Perl
19:09 Su-Shee TimToady: I'd say chances are good for winning at least the girls with camelia...
19:10 TimToady that is one of my explicit aims
19:10 sjohnson we could make a Japan-friendly representation of camelia too
19:10 TimToady there's already one in the topic
19:11 sjohnson is it that little thing on the very top left?
19:11 TimToady yes, that's also camelia
19:11 TimToady in supersonic attack mode, I believe
19:12 pmichaud recent twitter post:  http://eppy7890.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/joe_camel.jpg
19:12 pmichaud oops, wrong link
19:12 pmichaud http://eppy7890.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/joe_camel.jpg
19:12 sjohnson see pmichaud? it's working
19:12 pmichaud grrrr
19:12 pmichaud stupid cut-n-paste
19:12 pmichaud http://twitter.com/trodrigues/statuses/3605522918
19:12 pmichaud http://twitter.com/pedrocs/statuses/3605617735
19:13 sjohnson http://twitter.com/stviewonder
19:13 Su-Shee szabgab introduced me to "scratch" (http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Support/Reference_Guide_1.4) - that's something I totally would love based on Perl 6 .. visual programming by moving around items on a tablet pc...
19:13 Su-Shee (perl 6 for children..)
19:14 PerlJam "Scratch projects are made up of objects called sprites."  boy does that take me back in time.
19:14 sjohnson TimToady: have you ever tried your hand at the japh thing?
19:14 PerlJam (I first encountered sprites on my TI-99/4a  :)
19:14 Su-Shee PerlJam: scroll down to those "visual blocks" - totally love those..
19:15 TimToady I am glad those people find camelia offensive.  That's another one of my explicit aims.  :)
19:15 sjohnson how could they find that cute little Perl 6 bug offensive
19:15 sjohnson if they think that's offensive, what would they say about Joe Camel?
19:16 TimToady I hope they find it so offensive they go and destroy someone else's community, not ours.  :)
19:16 Su-Shee _offensive_?! did I miss yet another internet meme? ;)
19:17 araujo Teaching kids perl ..... now this will indeed become into a religion
19:17 araujo :)
19:17 sjohnson heh araujo
19:17 sjohnson then comes Teach Your Kids Ruby
19:18 sjohnson and the religion wars start in a different form
19:18 sjohnson what I need is "Teach Your Girlfriend Perl"
19:18 sjohnson now THAT would be a great book
19:18 TimToady *tweet* Illegal use of sexist metaphors at line 42.
19:18 pmichaud aha!
19:19 pmichaud that's what we need instead of ===SORRY!===
19:19 pmichaud *tweet!*
19:19 TimToady how tweet it is...
19:19 pmichaud and in addition to displaying the exception on the screen, it automatically posts it to your twitter account so everyone else can see your silly mist^W^W^W that you're struggling as much as they are.  :)
19:23 PerlJam And that's the real reason Perl6 must come with networking support builtin as part of the standard distribution.
19:23 TimToady shh!
19:24 ruoso pmichaud, the portuguese perl mongers are notoriously sexist
19:24 TimToady we'll fix you later
19:24 ruoso 90% of the messages in the lisbom-pm mailing list are about some sexist joke
19:24 PerlJam ruoso: some cultural changes are by accretion, others are by attrition.
19:25 ruoso PerlJam, agreed... I'm very happy about the camelia, I think TimToady was very smart on bringing this issue up... specially on times where sexism is getting worse in some communities (*cough*ruby*cough*)
19:26 PerlJam Is it really getting worse in the ruby community?
19:26 Su-Shee ruoso: you're referring to the "p0rnstar" presentation?
19:26 PerlJam That seemed more like a one-off thing than a community endorsed way of being
19:27 ruoso Su-Shee, not only that... at FISL they had fashion models walking around with shirts that said "we hire ruby"
19:27 PerlJam I mean, perl has its share of obnoxious personas too :)
19:27 Su-Shee ruoso: hm. ok.
19:28 pmichaud afk # kid pickups
19:28 Su-Shee I personally think it has more to do with some hip, unconventional image thing...
19:29 * ruoso might need to notice that he is not portuguese, but brazillian, even if he spent some time in lisbon a while ago
19:30 TimToady the world will be fixed by people who are never entirely comfortable in their own cultures
19:30 TimToady it's a complex process, and there are no simple answers, other than individual effort
19:31 Su-Shee ruoso: I see perl bikini-wear in our future.. ;)
19:31 PerlJam TimToady: awareness is always a good first step  ;)
19:31 TimToady well, it really comes down to humility, I think
19:32 TimToady we need that, as well as hubris
19:32 * PerlJam needs more of both
19:33 * ruoso has a lot of unconfortableness
19:33 PerlJam ruoso: me too!
19:33 TimToady ruoso: good, that's the price of having a wide dynamic range
19:33 PerlJam this one is interesting (if true): http://twitter.com/merbist/statuses/3570996955
19:37 zamolxes joined #perl6
19:49 [particle] oh give me a break!
19:49 [particle] ww
19:51 ruoso [particle], feel free to take it now
19:51 [particle] :P
19:52 [particle] my break starts in 68 minutes, when i finish work and head for the mountains
19:52 PerlJam mountains++
20:00 terje_ joined #perl6
20:08 mikehh rakudo (7666e92) builds on parrot r40842, make test / make spectest (up to r28100) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
20:10 PerlJam mikehh: is that an automated thingy?
20:13 mikehh PerlJam: no
20:14 mikehh just reporting on my testing procedures for parrot
20:15 colomon joined #perl6
20:15 mikehh and I thought that this should be repeated in #perl6
20:34 colomon rakudo: multi sub infix:<**>(Complex $a, Num $b) { exp($b * log($a)) }; say 1i ** 3;
20:34 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«NaNNaNi␤»
20:35 colomon rakudo: multi sub infix:<**>(Complex $a, Num $b) { exp($b * log($a)) }; say 1i ** 3.0;
20:35 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«NaNNaNi␤»
20:36 colomon rakudo: say log(1i);
20:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0+1.5708i␤»
20:37 colomon rakudo: say 3.0 * log(1i);
20:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0+4.71239i␤»
20:38 colomon rakudo: say exp(3.0 * log(1i));
20:38 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«-1.83691e-16-1i␤»
20:40 colomon rakudo: sub iPower($a, $b) { exp($b * log($a)) }; say iPower(1i, 3.0);
20:40 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«NaNNaNi␤»
20:40 colomon Errr... seems like a bug?
20:41 andrewz joined #perl6
20:41 andrewz is 6 rdy for production? can it use perl5 mods?
20:42 PerlJam andrewz: yesish and noish.
20:43 renormalist joined #perl6
20:44 PerlJam andrewz: The Rakudo implementation is quite usable for a variety of tasks.  You could use it in production as long as you realize that are some things that just don't work.
20:45 PerlJam andrewz: however, there will be a release called "Rakudo Star" in the spring of 2010 that aims to be something people outside of the pioneers circle can and should start using.
20:47 andrewz PerlJam: thanks!
20:48 andrewz PerlJam: is there a list of things that dont work ?
20:48 andrewz also what happened to the haskell based version
20:48 andrewz too slow?
20:48 PerlJam andrewz: I'm actually not sure if there's a list of non-working things.
20:48 PerlJam no, pugs just lost momentum.
20:49 andrewz ah darn
20:50 PerlJam The lead developer (audrey tang) had some life issues that caused her to back off quite a bit and there weren't enough lambda camels to make up for that loss.
21:17 nihiliad joined #perl6
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21:48 diakopter sjohnson: heh.  "Teach your Boyfriend Perl"
21:48 diakopter but that begs the question.. Teach *what* to your boy/girlfriend Perl?
21:49 sjohnson be sure to order my previous bestselling volume: "Teach Your Girlfriend how to Setup a VCR"
21:50 sahadev left #perl6
21:50 diakopter I mean, doesn't Perl already know how to do enough?  why teach it more?
21:51 smuj_ left #perl6
21:51 sjohnson perhaps you misunderstood my intention of the title
21:51 diakopter no; I'm being trollish :P
21:51 diakopter hugme: hug diakopter
21:51 * hugme hugs diakopter
21:52 TimToady willful misinterpretation is the basis of half my humor :)
21:52 diakopter .. and the other half is accidental misinterpretation!
21:52 TimToady er, I wasn't going to say that
21:52 TimToady :)
21:52 diakopter lol.
21:53 diakopter /msg chanserv help
21:53 diakopter ha
21:54 TimToady did you notice we were chidden for maintaining a flock of opers?  :)
21:55 diakopter /msg chanserv quiet #perl6 *!*@*
21:55 diakopter no
21:56 diakopter I count 9
21:57 TimToady it fluctuates, depending on who is on semi-permanently
21:58 diakopter what's the threshold before phrienoad admins gurgle
21:59 TimToady Any, apparently
21:59 TimToady they think we should all be able to oper ourselves up at a moment's notice
22:00 TimToady but historically it always seemed that that was a bit problematic
22:00 diakopter hrm.. sounds like a job for a bot
22:00 TimToady and when we went without operators, we ended up infested
22:01 mikehh rakudo (7666e92) builds on parrot r40846, make test / make spectest (up to r28100) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc)
22:03 sjohnson if people want to keep ops, they should employ GNU screen technology with a remote irc shell
22:06 TimToady diakopter: the incident in question is here: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-08-27#i_1438135
22:08 sjohnson ahh, us / them mentality is subjective
22:08 TimToady it doesn't seem that way to us :)
22:09 pmichaud my irc client doesn't even display chanops
22:09 pmichaud so I have no idea who has ops and who doesn't :)
22:09 sjohnson pmichaud: hit /n
22:10 pmichaud I think my point is that I'd not even be aware if I was a part of "us" or "them".  It's just "all us butterflies" to me.  :)
22:11 TimToady those still in the larval state maybe don't see it that way :)
22:12 TimToady anyhoo, if there was an approved way to handle this that doesn't otherwise suck, I'm certainly not opposed to progress
22:12 sjohnson how bout i wrote a bot to do it
22:13 sjohnson that ops based on all info parameters of the irc mask
22:13 TimToady well, that's how irc.perl.org handles it, but I don't know how that squares with freenode culture
22:14 TimToady researches welcome :)
22:14 sjohnson i didnt realize there was an unspoken culture rule
22:14 TimToady *researchers
22:14 BinGOs This is why there are services
22:14 TimToady most cultures have unspoken rules...
22:15 BinGOs so you don't have to write bots.
22:15 [particle] please have some culture and don't speak any more of them
22:15 mikehh joined #perl6
22:16 sjohnson hmm
22:17 sjohnson says nothing on the motd about bots
22:17 sjohnson Utility Bots and Pseudo Servers
22:17 sjohnson Coming soon!
22:17 sjohnson on the website
22:18 sjohnson pretty sure this culture bot thing is superstition
22:19 sjohnson and lastly, nowhere in the freenode policy does it mention bots
22:23 sjohnson chanserv technology
22:24 diakopter channel title appendix: "beware the bots with ops! They know not what they [can] do."
22:27 sjohnson heheh
22:28 diakopter has anyone mentioned that the colors of the boxes on perl6.org are somewhat close to Camelia's, but not exact?  Would they look better if they matched more closely?
22:28 sjohnson talk to su-shee
22:28 TimToady they used to be closer
22:29 TimToady colors that look good in small quantities don't always look good in large quantities :)
22:31 sjohnson has anyone seen those tiny MicroSDHC things that hold 8 gigs?
22:31 sjohnson my oh my those things are small
22:31 sjohnson http://www.davidgilson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/microsdhc-16gb.jpg
22:31 sjohnson 16 gigs on that little guy
22:32 diakopter I think Camelia should flap her wings (or merely blink or wink) every few minutes.
22:32 diakopter or lay some eggs.
22:34 TimToady go wild
22:34 TimToady but skip the eggs
22:36 sjohnson ... because butterflies don't lay eggs i don't think
22:36 sjohnson if we're going to teach kids Perl, we might as well look credible.
22:36 sjohnson hmm, maybe they do lay eggs
22:36 sjohnson well i'll be
22:37 TimToady yes, well, I think she's a little too young to get in on the B&B action
22:37 diakopter Q:"Perl 6.  that's the language with a BUG as its mascot.  Why would the community want its brand to connote/evoke thoughts of bugs???"  A:"Because having a bug as the mascot signifies that all bugs in Perl 6 programs can be blamed on the language itself."  Q:"Ummm.."
22:37 diakopter many female butterflies mate immediately after emerging from chrysalis
22:38 TimToady a Perl 6 program can never be fully debugged :)
22:38 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
22:39 diakopter Limbic_Region: wb!
22:39 ababo joined #perl6
22:51 TimToady commuting &
23:05 dalek rakudo: 7666e92 | pmichaud++ |  (6 files):
23:05 dalek rakudo: Move infix:<%>, infix:<div>, and infix:<mod> to the setting.
23:05 dalek rakudo: However, we don't actually implement infix:<div> or infix:<mod> yet,
23:05 dalek rakudo: so add dummy versions of those to NYI.pm for now so people know
23:05 dalek rakudo: what's going on.
23:05 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7666e92876576ce0dc9b1f5b8a5f035e78a80e81
23:25 M_o_C joined #perl6
23:26 reqamst joined #perl6
23:33 frew__ joined #perl6
23:34 pioto how do div and mod differ from / and %? float vs. int?
23:41 TimToady div and mod are mostly reserved for user-defined types that don't want the coercive semantics of / and %

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