Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-08-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:45 stu42j Anyone here involved with perl6.org?
00:49 s1n pmichaud: what does set_integer_keyed mean?
00:50 s1n pmichaud: that is, i was looking at rt #68714, and i suspect i will be looking in gut.pir, but i'm not sure what the error is telling me
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00:52 carlin stu42j: most of the people here have access to modify it, what do you need to know?
00:53 stu42j I was just reading on use.perl - some people complaining about the colors...
00:53 stu42j I wanted to volunteer to help, just don't want to step on any toes.
00:57 carlin Su-Shee (who isn't here right now) did the current design
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02:36 wayland76 stu42j: Have you got a link to the use.perl article?
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02:42 stu42j wayland76: http://use.perl.org/~sigzero/journal/39552
02:43 wayland76 stu42j: Su-shee is in Germany, IIRC, so you'll need to be on during an appropriate timezone.  For me, that's evening, but I'm in Australia
02:44 wayland76 Also, allow me to mention that the butterfly was personally designed by Larry Wall, and was significantly better than some of the alternatives :)
02:49 wayland76 TimToady: If you're around, you may also be interested in commenting :)
02:50 wayland76 Btw, stu42j actually has a suggested alternative: http://saj.thecommune.net/perl6.org/index.html
02:51 wayland76 If that's the suggested alternative, then we need to speak to Su-Shee, and TimToady doesn't need to comment -- instead he can hack on the specs, or whatever it is that he does :)
02:52 wayland76 phenny: Tell Su-Shee There were some complaints about he colour scheme on perl6.org.  Complaints were not from p6 people, but posted at http://use.perl.org/~sigzero/journal/39552
02:53 wayland76 phenny: tell Su-Shee There were some complaints about he colour scheme on perl6.org.  Complaints were not from p6 people, but posted at http://use.perl.org/~sigzero/journal/39552
02:53 phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when Su-Shee is around.
02:53 wayland76 phenny: tell Su-Shee The most constructive suggestion came from stu42j who proposed this alternative: http://saj.thecommune.net/perl6.org/index.html
02:53 phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when Su-Shee is around.
02:54 wayland76 phenny: tell Su-Shee I don't mind either way myself, but I thought you might like to know.  Also, stu42j is on the IRC channel when I'm writing this.
02:54 phenny wayland76: I'll pass that on when Su-Shee is around.
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03:03 spinclad rakudo: say 3 ne 4
03:03 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
03:04 spinclad (( ok then; parsed 'say (3 ne 4)' not '(say 3) ne 4' ))
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03:07 carlin those paler colours are a nice improvement
03:10 colomon Post-pub, Rakudo re-build, and spectest, too tired to work on Rat.  In the morning before $work, maybe...
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04:43 pmichaud http://use.perl.org/comments​.pl?sid=43716&cid=70336  # latest (and probably last) reply to ank
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04:51 pyrimidine pmichaud++ (for the response)
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05:33 mberends pmichaud++ indeed, says exactly the right things
05:38 pmichaud woops, I ended up making one more response :)
05:38 pmichaud http://use.perl.org/comments​.pl?sid=43716&cid=70339
05:39 pmichaud I think I did enough troll feeding for one day; I did try to "troll hug" a bit with the invitation for helping us figure out a threading model, but I'm not nearly as skilled at it as audreyt++  :)
05:42 pmichaud oh dear, it might have worked :)
05:42 pmichaud http://use.perl.org/comments​.pl?sid=43716&cid=70340
05:52 wayland76 Are you going to tell him where he should he send the info?  Or should I do it?
05:53 pmichaud Just did.
05:53 pmichaud http://use.perl.org/comments​.pl?sid=43716&cid=70342
05:58 dalek rakudo: 9a37314 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
05:58 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 433 files, 12465 (72.9% of 17100) pass, 0 fail
05:58 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9​a37314d0186217770ee895e780390c2b4616e20
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06:11 JimmyZ_ glad to see it.
06:11 spinclad (troll hugging)++ !
06:12 carlin @karma (troll hugging)
06:12 lambdabot (troll has a karma of 0
06:13 carlin aww :(
06:13 spinclad @karma hugging)
06:13 lambdabot hugging) has a karma of 1
06:14 KatrinaTheLamia @karma hugging
06:14 lambdabot hugging has a karma of 0
06:15 KatrinaTheLamia Eris damnit! That is truly an injustice!
06:18 spinclad i think that's as well played as i've seen.  turning antagonism into the prospect of synergy really changed ank's picture of the perl world, me thinks.
06:19 carlin looking at that, it seems like he changed his tune after pm explained that p6 folk are volunteers and if they weren't doing P6 they probably wouldn't be doing p5.
06:19 spinclad may this bear good, thready fruit.
06:21 KatrinaTheLamia heh... which reminds me... I need to get back into this MMO... my level 1 Perl Knave appears to have been under appreciated.
06:21 spinclad carlin: yes, i think that was an effective step 1.
06:21 KatrinaTheLamia well... time to kill some Rabbits (ie: RTFM)
06:23 moritz_ good localtime() fellow Perl 6 hackers and lurkers
06:24 sharada :)
06:25 KatrinaTheLamia hai moritz_
06:26 moritz_ nothingmuch++ # http://blog.woobling.org/200​9/05/your-openid-sucks.html
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06:46 spinclad good verylate(), all.  i'll see if i can lurk in my dreams, like audrey.
06:49 wayland76 Incidentally, I've noticed on the topic of threading that there seem to be two basic opinions floating around.
06:50 wayland76 One is to do what is briefly mentioned in S17 at the moment, and have an events-underlying-threads model (which is the one I favour)
06:50 wayland76 But the other model seems to be advocated by people who think POSIX threads are where it's at
06:51 wayland76 My understanding is that the POSIX-threads people say that the events-threads stuff requires that the threads co-operate somehow
06:51 wayland76 @karma KatrinaTheLamia
06:51 lambdabot KatrinaTheLamia has a karma of 1
06:56 moritz_ rakudo: printf "%.2f", 12465 / 17100
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06:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.73»
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06:58 moritz_ colomon: please use 'plan *' only sparingly in the test suite, it detoriates our statistics about how many tests we have in the test suite
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07:07 dalek rakudo: d2cc61c | moritz++ | tools/progress-graph.pl:
07:07 dalek rakudo: [tools] avoid overlapping labels in progress graph
07:07 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​2cc61cf7acc4515a5440cb889c12af07a331b80
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07:29 pmichaud we should probably find some way to be able to work with 'plan *'
07:29 pmichaud or perhaps we need to get rid of the notion of computing the size of the suite (either altogether, or based on the 'plan' statements)
07:34 alester hugging++
07:35 alester pmichaud: I went for brevity http://perlbuzz.com/2009/08/perl-6-devel​opment-does-not-detract-from-perl-5.html
07:35 alester and now I go to bed.
07:35 moritz_ pmichaud: maybe we can re-use the test counting logic from fudge
07:35 wayland76 I'm reminded of the Englishman who said that the verse "Greet one another with a holy kiss" should be translated "Greet one another with a hearty handshake"
07:38 Su-Shee joined #perl6
07:38 Su-Shee good morning. :)
07:38 phenny Su-Shee: 02:53Z <wayland76> tell Su-Shee There were some complaints about he colour scheme on perl6.org.  Complaints were not from p6 people, but posted at http://use.perl.org/~sigzero/journal/39552
07:38 phenny Su-Shee: 02:53Z <wayland76> tell Su-Shee The most constructive suggestion came from stu42j who proposed this alternative: http://saj.thecommune.net/perl6.org/index.html
07:38 phenny Su-Shee: 02:54Z <wayland76> tell Su-Shee I don't mind either way myself, but I thought you might like to know.  Also, stu42j is on the IRC channel when I'm writing this.
07:38 sjohnson hi Su-Shee and wayland, and others
07:39 * KatrinaTheLamia huggles sjohnson
07:39 Tene japhb: Sorry for the delay.  I finally added eval to nqp.  It's pretty basic, and the language you're evaling needs to follow HLL interop conventions.
07:39 pmichaud Tene: is eval implemented as a keyword?
07:39 japhb Tene, Thank you!
07:40 pmichaud or as a library?
07:40 Tene pmichaud: compilers/nqp/src/builtins.pir
07:40 japhb Hopefully will be able to do more Plumage hacking next week, $day_job permitting
07:40 pmichaud oh.
07:40 KatrinaTheLamia hmm.. I could see it being used as a library as being useful.
07:41 pmichaud I'm trying to keep the number of builtin functions really small.  But I might be able to accept eval for now.
07:41 pmichaud (no, I'm not about to back it out... just thinking what I would like instead, if anything)
07:41 * sjohnson hugs KatrinaTheLamia back :3
07:41 KatrinaTheLamia particularly is eval had more object behaviour than keyword behaviour... seriously, I could think of some interesting ideas for an eval object.
07:41 Tene pmichaud: I have no attachment to it whatsoever.  Just the simplest thing that could possibly work.  I'll re-do it to comply with whatever feedback you give me.
07:42 japhb Su-Shee, one thing I noticed is that the less saturated mockup of the perl6.org front page also didn't wrap weirdly like perl6.org (used?) to.
07:42 pmichaud okay.
07:42 pmichaud I hadn't thought about it as builtins.pir, but I think that's likely okay for now.
07:42 Tene I don't really understand the layout of nqp very well anyway, but I didn't want to delay any longer. :)
07:43 wayland76 hugme: hug KatrinaTheLamia and sjohnson
07:43 * hugme hugs KatrinaTheLamia
07:43 japhb pmichaud, seems best to minimize the keyword count in NQP, I would think.
07:43 wayland76 hugme: hug  sjohnson
07:43 pmichaud Tene++  # excellent job, btw
07:43 wayland76 Hugs by proxy :)
07:43 pmichaud yes, I want to keep the keyword count low in NQP
07:43 moritz_ japhb: there were tweeks to the other (non-color) parts of the perl6.org layout recently. Maybe the decoloured version doesn't have these fixes yet
07:43 Tene japhb: you talked about json... is there a json compiler that exists as a language?
07:43 pmichaud well, more to the point, I don't want NQP to have keywords that aren't also keywords in Perl 6 :)
07:43 cognominal jnthn, are your around?
07:43 KatrinaTheLamia wayland76: you made a bot specifically for the purpose of hugging? BRAVO!
07:44 Tene I see compilers/json/, but that doesn't get installed as a language.
07:44 wayland76 No, I didn't.  But it's there
07:44 wayland76 But I might've just broken it :/
07:44 moritz_ KatrinaTheLamia: no. The primary purpose is of hugme is to add contributors to projects
07:44 KatrinaTheLamia bad wayland76... no cookie for you.
07:44 japhb Tene, yes, I believe that the existing JSON reader is implemented as a language.  But I hadn't tried to use it yet.  I don't know why it's not installed ....
07:44 moritz_ hugme: list projects
07:44 hugme moritz_: I know about these projects: json, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tufte
07:45 moritz_ hugme: help
07:45 hugme moritz_: 'hugme: (add $who to $project | list projects | hug $nickname)'
07:45 KatrinaTheLamia moritz_: ah... okay...
07:45 KatrinaTheLamia hugme add KatrinaTheLamia to SSBZ
07:45 hugme KatrinaTheLamia: sorry, I don't know anything about project 'SSBZ'
07:45 wayland76 hugme: hug sjohnson
07:45 * hugme hugs sjohnson
07:45 Tene japhb: compilers/json certainly doesn't get installed as a language.
07:45 wayland76 ok, it works now :)
07:46 KatrinaTheLamia hmmm... well, I suppose I need to register SSBZ somewhere >.>
07:46 japhb Tene, I was agreeing with you.  I was just saying I didn't happen to know *why* that was the case.  :-)
07:46 Tene Ah. :)
07:47 Tene japhb: likely because there are few people that know anything about hll interop, and json doesn't look like it's seen work in ages, so has been inherited from a time before that mattered.
07:47 japhb ah so.
07:48 KatrinaTheLamia moritz_: where do I go to add a project... I mean, I won't be listing SSBZ for a little bit (due to procrastination), but it would be nice to have people interested in it.. apart from "that crazy fan game Katrina is doing"
07:48 moritz_ KatrinaTheLamia: where do you want to list it? is a Perl 6 project?
07:51 KatrinaTheLamia Well, SSBZ was originally a Ruby project that I really got no where on (I don't think I got any actual coding done on it). Then I read up on Perl 6, and figured, that it would do nice on Perl 6. Especially since I don't expect it to be really mature any time soon. I mostly got the idea from the Iron Man blogs that Perl5 and Perl6 need more games for them. For Perl5 I am working on KREPES (Kid Radd Engine Project Existance System, I
07:52 kidd joined #perl6
07:52 moritz_ (truncated after "System, I")
07:53 KatrinaTheLamia I think the acronym ended up as..) and for Perl6 I decided to have house SSBZ.
07:53 KatrinaTheLamia heh... I really hate it when clients do that >.>
07:53 moritz_ anyway, if you want to add your project to the "proto" installer, just tell me or masak the URL of the project, and one of us will add it
07:53 moritz_ (or anyone of the 100 other proto comitters :-)
07:54 KatrinaTheLamia proto installer? Okay... is that the base distribution of Perl6... or is that some sort of package management system for Perl 6?
07:55 moritz_ it's the prototype of a package management in Perl 6
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07:55 moritz_ http://github.com/masak/proto/tree/master for more details
07:56 KatrinaTheLamia ah, okay ^.^
07:56 * KatrinaTheLamia still needs to start working her way around github btw >.>
07:57 moritz_ don't work your way around it - embrace it :-)
07:57 moritz_ anyway, you can also use gitorious if you prefer that over github
07:57 KatrinaTheLamia well, I am still new to most of you gits ~.^
08:00 japhb Who was going to work on private attribute declaration in NQP?  Was that Tene or jnthn?
08:00 Tene It wasn't me.
08:00 japhb All right, jnthn then.
08:01 Tene japhb: does that eval look sufficient for your purposes for now?
08:01 japhb Hopefully I'll cross paths with him tomorrow; in the mean time, I need to get to bed nowish.  Thanks again, Tene++
08:01 Tene kk 'night
08:02 pmichaud omg itz 3am
08:02 japhb Tene, only had time to pull parrot, don't have time or brains to really look at it now, sorry.  Will try tomorrow afternoon, if the planets align.
08:02 pmichaud I should get to sleep also
08:02 Tene japhb: just leave me a moose eventually.
08:02 pmichaud spent too much time working on Rats and writing use.perl comments :-|
08:03 Tene Rats?
08:03 pmichaud rakudo:  say Rat.new(3,4)
08:03 Tene Ah.
08:03 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub Rat␤»
08:03 pmichaud rakudo isn't updating?
08:03 Tene The gf has been talking about the rodent kind of Rat recently. >.>
08:04 KatrinaTheLamia reading through the Perl6 op chart and I could see the code `something orelse die` appear a lot >.>
08:05 pmichaud we tend to think in terms of 'fail' more than 'die'
08:06 KatrinaTheLamia I was thinking more of "GIVE ME THIS OR PERISH!" for that type of usage.
08:06 pmichaud but yes, 'orelse' fills that testing niche
08:06 sjohnson hugme: hug wayland
08:06 * hugme hugs wayland
08:06 sjohnson :)
08:06 sjohnson hugme: hug wayland76
08:06 * hugme hugs wayland76
08:06 sjohnson that's better
08:06 Tene pmichaud: what tasks are on your list for this week?
08:06 KatrinaTheLamia well... orelse works better than what a lot of people do in other languages for that sort of thing... strikes me as cleaner.
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08:07 * Tene starts looking into db access from rakudo
08:07 pmichaud Tene: I'm still working out the details, but mostly I expect to be cleaning up a bit more operator stuff and then diving into nqp issues
08:07 pmichaud (mainly grammar and regex related stuff)
08:08 Tene Okay, thanks.
08:08 pmichaud if you're wanting to do db access from rakudo, I'll definitely want to follow along :)
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08:08 pmichaud I'm interested in some NCI stuff.
08:08 Tene pmichaud: You have interest in that too?  I was doing it for masak.
08:09 pmichaud I'm more interested in the NCI aspects than the db ones
08:09 Tene If you have any specific interest, please express it.
08:09 Tene Okay.
08:09 Tene Will commits be sufficient for your curiosity, or do you want blog posts too?
08:09 pmichaud I always prefer blog posts, because (1) publicity is good and (2) others will read blogs
08:10 pmichaud but that's a "do as I say not as I do" sort of thing, so I happily take whatever I get :)
08:10 pmichaud because I'm notoriously bad about blog posting my own work.  I even failed on IronMan last week, so I'm back to paperman status :(
08:10 moritz_ so am I
08:10 pmichaud (in my weak defense, I did have to go out of town and entertain family a lot during that week)
08:10 moritz_ masak++ is bronze
08:12 pmichaud at YAPC::EU there was a "Space Invaders" demo written in Perl 5 SDL.  I've been wondering what it would take to make a Perl 6 version of it :)
08:13 Tene Someone posted a breakout clone in rakudo sdl recently
08:13 moritz_ tuits, mostly
08:13 Tene it ran very very slowly.
08:13 pmichaud yeah, I saw that it was done, and that it was really slow
08:13 pmichaud that's something we could probably work on over time :)
08:13 pmichaud http://github.com/domm/Game-PerlInvaders/
08:16 Tene He used some custom patches to parrot's SDL, iirc.  I'll see about merging those back into the appropriate place.
08:18 pmichaud also, on the topic of db access from rakudo:  http://www.asciiville.com/2009/08/t​opm-perl-6-hackathon-afterhack.html
08:20 Tene okay, the existing mysql client library works from Parrot (but segfaults on exit?)
08:21 Tene ah, segfaults off somewhere in libmysqlclient.
08:21 Tene the existing mysqltest.p6 just segfaults.
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08:27 pmichaud okay, I definitely need to get to sleep.  be back in a few hours
08:27 Tene Yay, segfault in get_pmc_proxy!
08:27 colomon pmichaud: is the div operator hooked up to Rat yet?
08:27 Tene I still don't really understand the pmc_proxy stuff. :)
08:29 moritz_ rakudo: say (1 div 3).WHAT
08:29 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«infix:<div> not yet implemented in Rakudo, sorry␤in sub infix:div (src/gen_setting.pm:1592)␤called from Main (/tmp/YB7i2N0cvD:2)␤»
08:29 moritz_ that should be an easy fix.
08:30 colomon rakudo: say new.Rat(1,3)
08:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub new␤»
08:31 colomon rakudo: say Rat.new(1,3)
08:31 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub Rat␤»
08:32 pmichaud p6eval isn't up-to-date
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08:35 pmichaud and afaict,  commit 0d4fe0 is from 2009-08-13
08:35 hah joined #perl6
08:36 pmichaud on another topic, it might be nice for there to be some sort of link from perl6.org to
08:36 moritz_ maybe I didn't start cron in the chroot after reboot
08:36 pmichaud http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/camelia.txt
08:36 pmichaud or some other page that explains the butterfly a bit more :)
08:37 agentzh joined #perl6
08:37 carlin make camelia clickable and link to there
08:37 pmichaud it might be worth writing a page that describes camelia
08:38 moritz_ aye
08:38 moritz_ as soon as we have a layout that supports subpages
08:38 moritz_ Su-Shee++ is working on that
08:40 Su-Shee she does. yesterday I wasted 5 hours on a broken gtk to get a recent inkscape to do shiny things.... very productive.
08:42 moritz_ well, Perl 6 development is optimized for fun, and so is the development of the accompanying websites
08:42 jaffa8 joined #perl6
08:42 jaffa8 hi
08:43 jaffa8 In Perl 6 regular expressions, how do I negate the effect of i
08:43 jaffa8 ?
08:43 pmichaud :i(0)
08:43 pmichaud :!i should also work, but it may be NYI in Rakudo
08:43 jaffa8 what is NYI?
08:43 pmichaud "Not Yet Implemented"
08:44 jaffa8 rakudo: /:!i do it/
08:44 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Quantifier follows nothing in regex at offset 11, found ':'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
08:44 pmichaud nyi
08:44 jaffa8 rakudo: /:i(0) do it/
08:44 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:45 jaffa8 rakudo: "DO IT"~~/:i(0) do it/; print $()
08:45 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:45 jaffa8 rakudo: "DO IT"~~/:i(1) do it/; print $()
08:45 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:45 Tene jaffa8: you want $/
08:45 pmichaud rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(0) do it/;  print $/;
08:45 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:45 Tene rakudo: "DO IT"~~/:i(1) do it/; print $/
08:45 pmichaud rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) 'do it'/;  print $/;
08:45 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:45 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«DO IT»
08:46 pmichaud rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(0) 'do it'/;  print $/;
08:46 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:46 jaffa8 ok
08:46 pmichaud okay, I'm really leaving now.  Computer shutting down, even :)
08:46 Tene 'night pm
08:46 jaffa8 SHould not $() work?
08:47 Tene I've never seen $().
08:47 Tene Is it new?
08:47 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) 'do it'/;  print ();
08:47 moritz_ no, it's old
08:47 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) 'do it'/;  print $();
08:47 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:47 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«DO IT»
08:47 Tene Oh.
08:47 moritz_ what used to be $() is now spelled $/.ast
08:47 moritz_ afaict
08:48 Tene ah
08:48 moritz_ but it seems to still work
08:48 moritz_ don't know if it's specced that way
08:48 jaffa8 ast?
08:48 moritz_ abstract syntax tree
08:48 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) ('do it')/;  print $();
08:48 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:49 jaffa8 So $() should print ast.
08:49 moritz_ currently p6eval is being borked
08:49 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) ('do it')/;  print $/;
08:49 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«DO IT»
08:49 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) ('do it')/;  print $0;
08:49 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«DO IT»
08:49 jaffa8 borked?
08:49 moritz_ it's not reliable atm
08:50 jaffa8 What does it have to do with this?
08:50 moritz_ jaffa8: that if you write 'rakudo: $program' and you get no output, that might be the cause
08:50 jaffa8 I did not write that.
08:51 moritz_ anyway, I have a patch locally here that implements infix:<div> for ints
08:51 moritz_ spectesting now
08:52 jaffa8 $() did not print anything
08:52 jaffa8 That is a bug I guess
08:52 moritz_ I just explained that if p6eval doesn't print anything, it might not be rakudo's fault.
08:53 jaffa8 ok
08:53 moritz_ rakudo: say 1
08:53 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:53 jaffa8 rakudo : say 4/4
08:53 jaffa8 rakudo: say 4/4
08:54 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
08:56 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i (1) ('do it')/;  print $0;
08:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:56 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) ('do it')/;  print $0;
08:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:56 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) 'do it'/;  print $0;
08:56 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
08:56 zamolxes joined #perl6
08:56 jaffa8 rakudo:  "DO IT" ~~ /:i(1) 'do it'/;  print $/;
08:57 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
09:00 jaffa8 rakudo:  "dddd" ~~ /d ** 3../;  print $/;
09:00 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
09:00 jaffa8 rakudo:  "dddd" ~~ /d ** 3.. /;  print $/;
09:00 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
09:00 moritz_ rakudo: say "basic sanity"
09:01 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
09:01 moritz_ p6eval's brokenness should be fixed in a few minutes
09:02 sjohnson rakudo: say 1+1
09:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
09:02 KatrinaTheLamia rakudo: say "I hear wayland76 loves having tea parties with his dollies and talking about all the latest gossip"
09:02 jaffa8 do you know that d ** 3.. is not implemented?
09:02 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
09:02 moritz_ jaffa8: why don't you just install rakudo locally and try it out?
09:02 carlin it's not broken, it's pining for the fjords
09:02 sjohnson wayland76, is this... *gasp*... true?
09:02 sjohnson ( `ー´)
09:03 jaffa8 Are you aware of the fact that of d**3 not implemented?
09:03 KatrinaTheLamia oh yes, wayland76 wears a really fetching hat. It is most becoming of him ^.^ </cutethulhu_reference>
09:04 Tene Hmm.  /me is not familiar with cutethulu.
09:05 jaffa8 moritz_,I have rakudo on my machine.
09:05 jaffa8 moritz_,Are you aware of the fact that of d**3 not implemented?
09:05 KatrinaTheLamia Tene: I'll find the video
09:05 cotto joined #perl6
09:06 moritz_ jaffa8: so, what does your local test tell you, is it implemented?
09:06 Tene looks like google knows where it is.
09:06 wayland76 That's right, talk about me behind my back.  Admittedly I have tea parties, but they usually involve me wearing a top hat and sitting next to a dormouse
09:06 moritz_ rakudo: say 'dddd' ~~ / d ** 3 / && say $/
09:06 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ddd␤1␤»
09:06 moritz_ rakudo: 'dddd' ~~ / d ** 3 / && say $/
09:06 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«ddd␤»
09:06 jaffa8 moritz_,not.
09:07 jaffa8 rakudo: say 'dddd' ~~ / d ** 3.. / && say $/
09:07 KatrinaTheLamia Tene: well for those too lazy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP-33XI4frs << it is a fairly old clip on the web.
09:07 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Error in closure quantifier at offset 34, found ' '␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
09:07 jaffa8 Can you see it now?
09:08 jaffa8 rakudo: say 'dddd' ~~ / d ** ..3 / && say $/
09:08 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
09:08 moritz_ jaffa8: you asked about **3 being implemented or not. That's not quite the same
09:08 Tene KatrinaTheLamia: I consider myself enlightened. :)
09:08 jaffa8 it was a typo
09:08 jaffa8 if you read my earlier questions , they are right.
09:09 wayland76 So do I.  Enlightenment++ window manager (e17) :)
09:09 moritz_ ok, I am aware of it
09:09 moritz_ but the RT is not
09:09 moritz_ jaffa8: would you care to write a ticket for that?
09:09 jaffa8 rakudo: say 'dddd' ~~ / d ** ..3 / && say $/
09:09 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
09:09 jaffa8 there seem to be a problem with .. 3 as well.
09:10 moritz_ aye, it's probably parsed as $term ** $term
09:10 xinming joined #perl6
09:10 moritz_ rakudo: say 'dAA3d' ~~ /d ** ..3/
09:10 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
09:11 moritz_ rakudo: say 'dAd' ~~ /d ** ..3/
09:11 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«␤»
09:11 moritz_ rakudo: say 'dAd 3' ~~ /d ** ..3/
09:11 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«dAd 3␤»
09:11 moritz_ so it's parsed as [ d ** . ] .3
09:12 jnthn morning #perl6
09:12 moritz_ oh hai jaffa8
09:12 jnthn tab completion fail
09:13 moritz_ oh right
09:13 moritz_ jnthn hai oh
09:13 KatrinaTheLamia hai jnthn
09:13 jnthn ;-)
09:13 Tene morning jnthn
09:13 kst joined #perl6
09:13 dalek rakudo: 17bcd58 | moritz++ | :
09:13 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
09:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​7bcd58e3f7938afd685be3f565399f2c0f846f7
09:13 dalek rakudo: a378770 | moritz++ | src/setting/ (2 files):
09:13 dalek rakudo: implement infix:<div>(Int, Int)
09:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a​378770d5ba2ff8171c29189102341de89db1e51
09:14 * jnthn wonders what excitement has been happening over the last few days while he's not been paying so much attention...
09:14 jaffa8 nothing?
09:15 Tene jnthn: I'm getting segfaults from sql stuff
09:15 Tene jnthn: I just committed 'eval' for nqp.
09:16 casiano joined #perl6
09:17 jnthn oh wow...
09:17 jnthn nice flame war...
09:17 jnthn Tene: eval for NQP - nice. :-) Did you get anywhere with library loading there yet too? :-)
09:19 jaffa8 jnthn, what flame war?
09:20 jaffa8 jnthn, Do you have plans to compile rakudo on regular bases as you did with pgs?
09:20 jaffa8 pugs
09:21 cognominal jnthn, can you help me with my blizkost patch?
09:22 cognominal whatever the kost?
09:22 cognominal :)
09:23 moritz_ jaffa8: fperrad has win32 builds of parrot and rakudo
09:24 Tene jnthn: Oh, right, I forgot that you wanted that.
09:24 Tene although, I'd like to hear back from pm on how he wants it implemented.
09:24 Tene He had some concerns about where I added eval.
09:25 jnthn Tene: I think japhb++ wanted it for working on the library installer stuff...
09:25 Tene pmichaud: Any concerns about 'use' in NQP?
09:25 jnthn jaffa8: No - Francois Perrad already doing a fine job of those, so no need to duplicate effort.
09:25 Tene jnthn: That's what I thought too, but then it turned out he wanted 'eval' more, or something.
09:25 Tene I dunno.  That was like a week ago.
09:26 jnthn Tene: Ah, OK.
09:26 Tene Much longer than my attention span.
09:26 jnthn I've not had time to follow things too closely of late.
09:26 jnthn cognominal: Thanks for the patch - I didn't have time to look at it just yet.
09:26 Tene it looks like I need to finally learn the pmc_proxy stuff in parrot.
09:26 Tene I've been avoiding it for a while.
09:26 jaffa8 they are not built on daily basis as they are used to.
09:26 Tene but, now for bed.
09:26 Tene 'night
09:27 ejs2 joined #perl6
09:28 jnthn Tene: 'night
09:28 jnthn jaffa8: Ah, OK
09:29 moritz_ well, if you want pre-built versions, stick to the releases (just my opinion)
09:30 jnthn Aye, once a month ain't bad.
09:30 jnthn If somebody wants to set something more frequent up, it's probably not so bad.
09:30 maerzhase joined #perl6
09:30 moritz_ but it requires more thought
09:30 jnthn There's a makefile target in Parrot and Rakudo to make a Windows installer, IIRC.
09:31 jnthn So it may not be so much effort. I don't have a Windows box that is on every day (e.g. when I'm not at home) though.
09:32 jaffa8 How did you do last time
09:32 jaffa8 ?
09:33 jnthn jaffa8: Had some Perl script that mostly automated it
09:33 jnthn But this was way back, before Parrot had make install for example.
09:38 jnthn cognominal: Your patch - it appears to be against some earlier version of the PMCs, rather than being a complete patch to add them?
09:38 jnthn cognominal: That is, I don't see them at all in the git repo.
09:39 mikehh joined #perl6
09:40 pugs_svn r28127 | moritz++ | [t/spec] some small unfudging and fudge changes
09:41 agentzh1 joined #perl6
09:42 cognominal jnthn, I will check that
09:43 fridim_ joined #perl6
09:43 jnthn cognominal: ok
09:43 jnthn cognominal: would you like a commit bit, or prefer to send patches?
09:44 cognominal jnthn, anyway my problem is only with perl5.pir, I corrected one mistake, then I hit the problem
09:44 dakkar joined #perl6
09:44 cognominal A commit bit will be nice.
09:44 cognominal s/will/would/
09:45 moritz_ hugme: list projects
09:45 hugme moritz_: I know about these projects: json, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tufte
09:45 moritz_ no blizkost yet :-)
09:45 jnthn hugme?
09:45 jnthn hugme please
09:45 moritz_ jnthn: hugme is a bot that hands out commit bits to github projects
09:45 jnthn ...meh, as responsive as my admiree.
09:45 * wayland76 pays attention to comments about commit bits, and commits to biting people :)
09:45 moritz_ hugme: hug jnthn
09:45 * hugme hugs jnthn
09:45 wayland76 hugme: hug jnthn
09:45 * hugme hugs jnthn
09:46 jnthn :-D
09:46 wayland76 hugme: help
09:46 hugme wayland76: 'hugme: (add $who to $project | list projects | hug $nickname)'
09:46 moritz_ jnthn: the only glitch is that the project own has to give me his github API key to do so
09:46 moritz_ but so far it works for me, the 'perl6' user and masak++
09:47 moritz_ s/own/owner/
09:47 jnthn cognominal: Your gh ID?
09:47 moritz_ (btw "blitzkost" in german is a (IMHO bad) translation of "fast food" :-)
09:48 jnthn moritz_: lol
09:48 cognominal jnthn,  cognominal
09:48 moritz_ lunch&
09:48 jnthn moritz_: At least nobody yet found a language wehre it means something really offensive. :-)
09:48 jnthn cognominal: added
09:49 jnthn cognominal: Thanks for hacking on Blizkost. :-)
09:49 cognominal I know some of the internal of Perl 5 and reading you code about roles. Seems to be a goodmatch for Blizkost
09:50 jnthn cognominal: Aye, well, we need to just get some of the basics working first. :-)
09:52 ruoso hugme, list projects
09:52 hugme ruoso: I know about these projects: json, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tufte
09:53 ruoso hugme, add ruoso to smop
09:53 hugme ruoso: sorry, I don't know anything about project 'smop'
09:53 mikehh rakudo (a378770) builds on parrot r40887, make test / make spectest (up to r28126) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 i386 (g++)
09:53 ruoso hugme, ad project smop
09:53 ruoso hugme, add project smop
09:55 ruoso hugme, hug ruoso
09:55 * hugme hugs ruoso
09:55 cognominal jnthn, I just don't get this error of not finding the pmc
09:56 jnthn cognominal: Me either, I know you're not the only person to run into it though
09:56 jnthn cognominal: Will try and spend some time on Blizkost in the next few days
09:57 kst joined #perl6
09:57 cognominal jnthn, no hurry
09:58 cognominal jnthn, you should create a google group
09:58 jnthn cognominal: Google group?
09:59 Ryan52 joined #perl6
10:00 svarg so no more haskell questions entertained in here?
10:01 cognominal jnthn,  http://groups.google.com/     so as to have the searchable mail list
10:03 jnthn cognominal: May be an idea, so there's at least some official place for people to post build problems / ask questions other than having to hunt down somebody on IRC.
10:03 jnthn OTOH there's already the GitHub Issues tracker.
10:11 cognominal I don't know Github that well. Anyway, that's your call :)
10:11 jnthn cognominal: Will ponder it, thanks for suggesting. :-)
10:12 jnthn OK, taking visitor out to see a castle, bbl
10:26 donaldh joined #perl6
10:29 pmurias joined #perl6
10:31 pugs_svn r28128 | daxim++ | [perl6.org] muted colours by stu42j
10:31 pugs_svn r28128 |
10:31 pugs_svn r28128 | http://use.perl.org/comments​.pl?sid=43716&amp;cid=70315
10:34 pmurias ruoso: hi
10:34 moritz_ ruoso: hugme only knows about github repos
10:34 sri_kraih joined #perl6
10:35 * ruoso commute &
10:35 mikehh joined #perl6
10:41 masak joined #perl6
10:42 masak greetings, #perl6
10:42 * masak backlogs
10:42 moritz_ oh hai masak
10:42 masak o/
10:44 moritz_ now that we have muted colors on perl6.org, can we go back to a white background?
10:46 masak we can try.
10:46 wayland76 ...and <blink> tags? :)
10:46 masak @slap wayland76
10:46 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps wayland76
10:46 moritz_ wayland76: hush
10:46 wayland76 hugme: hug everyone
10:46 * hugme hugs everyone
10:47 masak a long-time proponent of milder colours on that page, I must say I like this colour scheme much better than the previous.
10:47 carlin joined #perl6
10:48 pugs_svn r28129 | moritz++ | [perl6.org] now that we have muted colors, use white background again
10:48 pugs_svn r28129 |
10:48 pugs_svn r28129 | If you think this screams at you too much, feel free to revert this commit.
10:49 moritz_ ok, site updated
10:49 sharada hey it's got round rectangles!!
10:49 sharada this is really Perl 6.0
10:50 masak there's something wrong with the Ironman Part of the twitter feed perlnews. it keeps repeating mst's early ironman posts.
10:51 masak s/P/p/
10:51 moritz_ so does the ironman website, no?
10:55 masak dunno.
10:56 masak yes.
10:56 masak maybe something wrong with mst's feed?
10:56 svarg whats with the camelia spokesbug
10:57 masak what about it?
10:57 moritz_ it's our logo
10:57 svarg logo for perl6?
10:57 moritz_ aye
10:57 svarg erm
10:57 moritz_ "erm", it's not macho enough?
10:57 svarg is that the final logo?
10:58 * masak thinks it's macho enough
10:58 moritz_ svarg: nothing in Perl 6 is really final yet
10:58 masak svarg: I think no-one would complain if you tried your hand at making a logo to your liking.
10:59 svarg ok
10:59 svarg let's see what i can come up with
10:59 svarg the page looks nice, straight to the point
11:00 carlin an alternative logo would be nice (not to replace camelia but as an alternative)
11:00 svarg an alteernative? no, that'd be of no use
11:01 svarg camelia is not the final piece right so why not try something else?
11:01 wayland76 svarg: No-one may complain, but there will be bikeshedding :)
11:01 moritz_ svarg: we have multiple implementations - why not multiple logos? :-)
11:02 svarg ok what do you need logos for?
11:02 carlin Camelia is nice from a fun and friendly perspective, one from a clean and professional perspective would be good
11:02 moritz_ svarg: to put it up on websites, mostly
11:02 moritz_ or on books, if you write them
11:02 svarg camelia is friendly and fun but this is perl, you want to keep it a lil more reserved?
11:03 svarg moritz_: yeah but i mean what kinda logos do you require
11:03 moritz_ svarg: we have a logo. The question is what kind of logo *you* want
11:03 moritz_ for Perl 6
11:03 svarg ok
11:04 svarg camelia is the only perl6 logo you have now righ?
11:04 svarg i'll work on an alternative
11:04 moritz_ rakudo has a logo, but it's only for rakudo itself, not for Perl 6
11:05 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/sites/default/files/logo.png
11:05 svarg you want an alternative for rakudo as well?
11:05 moritz_ I have no idea; if one falls out of the other efforts, it might be nice. But in the end that's pmichaud's decision
11:06 svarg alright i'll work on something, show it you in a day or two
11:06 wayland76 Well, there was an alternative to the Perl 6 logo, but it was a nightmare
11:07 masak svarg: the question 'you want an alternative for rakudo as well?' presupposes the (false) image of one single coherent group of people all wanting the same thing. :)
11:07 wayland76 IIRC, it had a couple of lion pictures stolen from the 'Net, with the slogan "Parallel lions never meet" or something :)
11:07 masak wayland76: you're just making that up. :P
11:07 flip913 joined #perl6
11:07 wayland76 masak: No, this is true -- I made it myself :)
11:07 masak ah :)
11:08 flip913 If I've got a class with (eg) an array of somethings in it, can I pass its Iterator role as the one of the class? Ie. so that iterating over the class object does iterate over the array in it.
11:08 flip913 Without re-defining all the methods needed for the Iterator role, that is.
11:08 wayland76 Yes
11:09 wayland76 I don't know if it's implemented
11:09 moritz_ http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-b​in/bugreport.cgi?bug=544399 # ITP: rakudo -- implementation of Perl 6 for Parrot
11:09 masak probably not implemented, no.
11:09 wayland76 But you do class Bar does Iterator {} class foo { has $!Bar handles ??? }
11:09 wayland76 I think
11:10 wayland76 But not ???
11:10 wayland76 That's me forgetting what goes there
11:11 wayland76 Try S12 for more info
11:11 moritz_ or S07
11:11 moritz_ but most of that really isn't implemented in Rakudo right now
11:11 svarg masak: heh, im sure there's going to be a difference in opinion but let me get started on it and show it to you
11:11 wayland76 But you do class Bar does Iterator {} class foo { has $!Bar handles Iterator; }
11:11 wayland76 That's how it goes
11:12 flip913 wayland76: that's it? 'handles' ... I'll have to look at that.
11:12 masak svarg: there's always a difference in opinion. that just means people care. that's a good thing.
11:12 wayland76 It can do methods or roles or regexes that match methods :)
11:12 * wayland76 loves handles
11:12 svarg masak: exactly, criticism might ask me to do more of them
11:13 svarg ask/force
11:13 moritz_ in scruffy (ruby) I found this curious piece of code:
11:13 moritz_ rendertime_renderer.instance_eval { before_render if respond_to?(:before_render) }
11:14 moritz_ can I translate that to $rendertime_renderer.?before_render ?
11:18 svarg whats the caption for perl 6?
11:19 svarg does it have one?
11:19 moritz_ I don't think there's one
11:19 svarg do you need one?
11:19 moritz_ so far I haven't found one that does Perl 6 justice
11:20 svarg ok you wont be needing then? :P
11:20 svarg if you guys need it let me know
11:21 donaldh joined #perl6
11:21 carlin Perl 6: Now with more ways to do it
11:21 moritz_ well, having one wouldn't be bad
11:21 moritz_ I was recently looking for something to put in perl6.org's <title> tag
11:21 moritz_ and I ended up just writing 'Perl 6'
11:21 svarg ok
11:22 svarg k will work something out
11:22 moritz_ hey, what about "Perl 6 - your friendly programming language"?
11:23 moritz_ now let the bikeshedding begin!
11:23 svarg for the title tag i guess just perl6 will do:)
11:23 wayland76 svarg: If you want ideas, there was a long discussion about logos on the perl6-language mailing list
11:23 wayland76 moritz_: Goes well with the Camelia theme :)
11:24 svarg yeah wanted to see some examples of logos previously done and rejected
11:25 moritz_ I think I have link somewhere in one of my tidings posts
11:25 moritz_ let me see if I can find it
11:25 svarg yeah please
11:25 svarg thanks
11:26 moritz_ http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.​perl6.language/2009/03/msg31263.html
11:26 moritz_ the rest of the thread might also be of interest to you
11:28 svarg wxactly what i wa slooking for
11:28 svarg thx
11:28 moritz_ you're welcome
11:32 svarg oh you will need to duplicate this in ascii as well?
11:32 svarg challenging
11:32 svarg heh
11:33 moritz_ I think the ASCII-part is not so essential
11:33 svarg from that perspective camelia looks nice
11:33 svarg thats cool makes it more interesting, i'll do an ascii version
11:34 svarg for rakudo whats your ascii version? just the japanese fonts?
11:34 szabgab joined #perl6
11:34 Su-Shee .oO(still camelia not manly enough..? ;)
11:34 moritz_ s/ASCII/Unicode/ but yes :-)
11:34 svarg ok
11:38 zamolxes joined #perl6
11:38 wayland76 Hmm.  I tried making a version of camelia-in-a-suit
11:39 moritz_ http://slashdot.org/submission/10​63859/Perl-6-gets-a-new-homepage somebody tried to /. me
11:39 moritz_ now I'm truly impressed
11:40 carlin moritz_: :) I think it's been skipped over though :(
11:41 moritz_ aye, thankfully. I don't think my server could have handled that.
11:41 wayland76 I tried to slashdot myself once.  It didn't work :)
11:42 Su-Shee well at least I won't be famous on slashdot for candy-pink and gay web style. ;)
11:42 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
11:44 moritz_ there are worse things to become famous for
11:45 * wayland76 thinks of Michael Jackson
11:45 Su-Shee hence the ;) - in 5 days noone cares anymore anyway.
11:46 moritz_ but the 5 days of traffic are enough to throw you out of google adsense :-)
11:46 hami joined #perl6
11:49 moritz_ Su-Shee: he, somebody found my page by searching for "flow charts of cold process in making soap" on google images - somehow I'd expect your page to turn up instead :-)
11:50 Su-Shee moritz_: aeh, ooookeyyyy. :)) I would have thought so too. :)
11:51 Su-Shee I could change my meta to a better connection of "soap making" and "perl 6"...
11:53 Su-Shee (whenever I read certain thread I really get the impression that people see perl 6 as a personal affront...)
11:56 carlin the same thing happened with Python 2 vs 3. PHP 4 vs 5.
11:56 carlin It's the internet :) You could find people who see kittens as a personal affront if you tried hard enough :/
11:57 Su-Shee that's true.. but I really don't get not being able to laissez faire..
12:04 diakopter did someone mention an ascii edition of Camelia?
12:04 masak s/ascii/Unicode/ :)
12:05 diakopter oh
12:05 masak »ö« (see topic)
12:05 Su-Shee :)
12:05 pmurias moritz_: why will traffic get you thrown out of google adsense?
12:05 diakopter at one time I was able to see such things in putty/screen/irssi... but I broke it.
12:05 Su-Shee why do I have a @ and you lot don't ...
12:06 masak gracias.
12:06 takadonet joined #perl6
12:06 takadonet morning all
12:07 moritz_ pmurias: extreme spikes in traffic make google suspicious, they think that fraud is involved
12:08 moritz_ pmurias: I've heard multiple times that being slashdotted resulted in being excluded from adsense
12:10 frettled OT: does anyone know where I can find Jesse Vincent's monospace Klingon font?  Google is not helping.  :(
12:11 moritz_ just ask him :-) obra_: feel hilighted (see above)
12:12 agentzh joined #perl6
12:12 frettled moritz_: aha!  I didn't know the nick/name mapping for him.
12:13 frettled moritz_: (thanks)
12:14 takadonet who got slashdotted?
12:14 Su-Shee noone (yet) :)
12:14 Su-Shee mayme moritz_ will. ;)
12:15 moritz_ but I think it's unlikely
12:19 pugs_svn r28130 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Update power.t to have real plan, un-todo stuff that now works in Rakudo, todo test that doesn't work (and may be incorrect, IMO).
12:21 colomon moritz_: How do you add test files to make spectest?  I don't think I ever got power.t properly included...
12:21 moritz_ colomon: that can only be done in the rakudo repo
12:22 colomon moritz_: Where?  I need to add the new rat.t i just created too, I'll make a patch with both...
12:23 moritz_ colomon: t/spectest.data
12:24 colomon moritz_++
12:25 moritz_ colomon++ # actually doing stuff
12:27 colomon BTW, on the plan * stuff -- agree that it shouldn't be long term, but it's super handy when making a lot of changes on a test file.
12:27 colomon I'd be willing to help try to toughen the test-counting code to deal with it, too.
12:28 moritz_ colomon: writing a simple Perl 5 script that counts the tests and add that to the test suite would be a help
12:29 moritz_ I agree that 'plan *' is handy, and we shouldn't let minor toolchain problems prevent us from using it
12:31 colomon Is there a reason you can't just run the .t script and get the number of tests reported?  plan * still gives that info...
12:31 moritz_ well, that works only if the test can actually be run
12:32 colomon Actually, it would have to be the make test equiv, wouldn't it?
12:32 colomon But I would think checking tests that don't run in is a much bigger sin....
12:34 moritz_ most tests that aren't run are actually wrong anway
12:34 moritz_ I tried it a few times, but it's nearly impossible to write more than a handful of trivial patches for NYI-features
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12:39 masak rakudo: say 360.0.sin
12:39 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.958915723414307␤»
12:39 masak rakudo: say 360.sin
12:39 reqamst joined #perl6
12:39 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Method 'sin' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
12:40 masak that'll confuse the "Int is a kind of Num" people.
12:40 colomon I've been pondering whether Int ought to have .sin.
12:40 moritz_ aye, I think it's a bug
12:41 moritz_ rakudo: say (1/2).WHAT
12:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
12:41 moritz_ rakudo: say (1 div 2).WHAT
12:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
12:41 wayland76 rakudo: say 1.sin(mortal)
12:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub mortal␤»
12:41 wayland76 rakudo: say 1.sin($mortal)
12:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Symbol '$mortal' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/DuLGNI9Eyj:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
12:41 wayland76 rakudo: say 1.sin(my $mortal)
12:41 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Method 'sin' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤»
12:42 colomon moritz_, masak: Int.sin is not in the spec.  But then, neither is Complex.sin, and I've already started working on that.  :)
12:42 masak rakudo: say Int ~~ Num
12:42 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:42 iblechbot joined #perl6
12:42 masak colomon: thing is, it shouldn't have to be...
12:42 masak ...in the spec.
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12:44 colomon I can trivially add it to the test suite if that is your guys opinion.
12:44 colomon (I mean, I have the trig.t file opened in the exact right spot and everything.)
12:44 masak that's my guys' opinion, at least.
12:47 moritz_ go for it
12:48 masak rakudo: class Foo { method bar { my @a = 1; undefine @a; } }; say Foo.bar
12:48 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤in Main (/tmp/ApxK0UzQAZ:2)␤»
12:49 masak carlin: nice catch. did you report that one?
12:50 carlin doh, no. still got the started bug report saved in my drafts
12:50 colomon moritz_: Back on modifying the list of spec tests -- now I'm getting a failure in 99problems-31-to-40.rakudo that I didn't get before?!?
12:50 * carlin finishes it
12:50 masak carlin++
12:50 moritz_ colomon: that shouldn't happen :/
12:50 moritz_ colomon: what kind of failure?
12:50 moritz_ colomon: oh, and send the patch anyway :-)
12:50 colomon "No plan found in TAP output
12:50 colomon "
12:51 colomon Will try to send patches along as soon as I've finished my cereal.
12:51 diakopter ? Perl6 backend for http://incubator.apache.org/thrift/
12:52 moritz_ sounds like a rather neat idea
12:52 diakopter would certainly get attention from the Ks of fb devs
12:54 wayland76 I wonder if it could be integrated with Web.pm :)
12:55 diakopter @karma @karma
12:55 lambdabot @karma has a karma of 0
12:55 diakopter @karma--
12:55 lambdabot usage @karma(+|-) nick
12:55 pugs_svn r28131 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Introduce rat.t file to test Rat type, with a few first simple tests.
12:55 diakopter @karma- @karma
12:55 lambdabot @karma's karma lowered to -1.
13:02 masak er, not quite 100 committers to proto yet, though that would be kinda cool. somewhere between 20 and 30, though.
13:03 masak I'm bronze? \o/ how can you tell?
13:04 abra joined #perl6
13:05 moritz_ masak: by reading the ironman feed :-)
13:06 masak so it doesn't actually say "bronze" anywhere? you just calculated it manually?
13:06 colomon You can ask it to show your icon, and that will be bronze (if you are bronze).
13:06 masak how? where?
13:07 DanielC joined #perl6
13:07 colomon I saw it last night, give me a minute.
13:07 * masak sits tight
13:07 moritz_ masak: http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/blo​g/matt-s-trout/iron-munger-up/
13:08 masak moritz_: cool, thank!
13:08 colomon moritz_++
13:08 masak I'll be blogging tonight, by the way. it'll be about efficient labyrinth-making, and it'll be kinda nice.
13:08 moritz_ http://ironman.enlightenedperl.o​rg/munger/mybadge/male/masak.png
13:08 masak I'll be experimenting with the form of the post, and will try to make it "literal Perl 6"
13:08 moritz_ masak: I hope with cool SVG charts along the way? :-)
13:08 masak moritz_: hm, that's an idea :)
13:09 masak yayimbronze
13:10 PerlJam good morning
13:11 Su-Shee hi PerlJam
13:11 * carlin finally sent bug report
13:11 carlin Couldn't think of a way to word the subject properly
13:12 colomon rakudo: say 360.0.sin('degrees')
13:12 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«-2.44921270764475e-16␤»
13:15 masak maybe I should write a 'how to word subject lines in bug reports' blog post, too...
13:15 colomon rakudo: say "360".Num;
13:15 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
13:15 masak my algorithm is something like this: (1) start with '[BUG]' (or '[TODO]'), (2) ???, (3) end with 'in Rakudo'.
13:16 colomon Funny, I assumed the 'in Rakudo' part was assumed if you were sending the e-mail to rakudobugs.
13:16 * moritz_ too
13:16 * carlin didn't use "in Rakudo"
13:17 moritz_ my magic incantation is something along the lines of [TODO] implement $feature | [BUG] doing $thing gives me $bad_error_message
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13:19 colomon rakudo: say (+"360").Num
13:19 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Float'␤»
13:19 moritz_ from the initial ironman announcement: "There will be a post of the month competition: a committee of good Perl writers and bloggers, who will look over the posts and pick one out to be honoured each month. The winner will get a limited edition T-shirt, and possibly other prizes from sponsors."
13:19 masak carlin: I think I'm pretty alone in doing "in Rakudo". it's almost useless, since Rakudo is the only implementation that uses RT.
13:20 carlin I should probably report the segfault too
13:20 carlin but I'm not sure what's going on there
13:20 colomon say Num("360")
13:21 colomon rakudo: say Num("360")
13:21 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Float'␤in Main (/tmp/uStjiDgG99:2)␤»
13:24 jaffa8 rakudo: m'hello'
13:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "'"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
13:24 jaffa8 rakudo: m'hello';
13:24 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "';"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
13:25 jaffa8 rakudo: m?hello?;
13:25 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0:  ( no output )
13:25 jaffa8 rakudo: "hello"~~m?hello?; print $/;
13:26 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«hello»
13:26 jaffa8 rakudo: "hello"~~m(hello); print $/;
13:26 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub hello␤»
13:26 jaffa8 rakudo: "hello"~~m&hello&; print $/;
13:26 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«hello»
13:26 ruoso joined #perl6
13:31 pugs_svn r28132 | colomon++ | [t/spec] A number of additional sin tests, including a batch of Num.sin($base) tests which do not work for mysterious reasons, and Int.sin and Complex.sin tests which do not work because they are not yet implemented.
13:32 meppl joined #perl6
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13:43 masak rakudo: module A::B; A::B::foo
13:43 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (/tmp/cq9feKAC4R:2)␤»
13:43 masak I know I haven't declared my 'foo', but why the 'Undef'?
13:45 moritz_ buubot: eval: package A::B; A::B::foo
13:45 buubot moritz_: A::B::foo
13:45 moritz_ buubot: eval: package A::B; A::B::foo()
13:45 buubot moritz_: ERROR: Undefined subroutine &A::B::foo called at (eval 36) line 1.
13:45 masak much more awesome error message, by me.
13:45 moritz_ masak: apparently A::B::foo autovivifies to Undef
13:46 masak but shouldn't undeclared things be not-found subroutines?
13:46 moritz_ they should, IMHO
13:46 * masak submits his first rakudobug in a while
13:46 frettled yay
13:47 moritz_ masak: welcome back to the living
13:47 masak oh, I've been alive alright. :)
13:47 masak but thanks. :)
13:47 moritz_ :-)
13:48 pmurias ruoso: how are we going to handle the situation in smopp5 when a interpreter.goto is called from within an XS subroutine
13:50 M_o_C joined #perl6
13:51 masak rakudo: sub foo() { "OH HAI" }; say foo("one argument, not zero")
13:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
13:51 masak o_O
13:51 moritz_ that's known and reported.
13:51 masak oki.
13:51 masak still very unsettling. :)
13:51 moritz_ rakudo: multi sub foo() { "OH HAI" }; say foo("one argument, not zero")
13:51 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'foo'␤in Main (/tmp/ru1RMaNdsv:2)␤»
13:58 _jaldhar_ joined #perl6
14:00 pugs_svn r28133 | colomon++ | [spec/t] Add a few more simple Rat tests.
14:02 ruoso joined #perl6
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14:14 mberends rakudo: "��� rulez!".print
14:14 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«��� rulez!»
14:15 masak botched latin-1 rulez?
14:16 mberends masak: hi, and yes
14:16 masak mberends: o/, and :P
14:16 masak I guess that should have been »ö«. and yes, I kinda like her too.
14:17 mberends masak: :-) meeting about proto-ng in a few minutes?
14:17 masak sure.
14:17 moritz_ just call it 'proton', drop the -g :-)
14:17 KyleHa joined #perl6
14:18 masak ...or pro-2...
14:18 mberends moritz_: nice one :)
14:19 masak perl6: my $a = 5; given $a { $a = 42; say $_ }
14:20 p6eval elf 28133: OUTPUT«5␤»
14:20 p6eval ..pugs, rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«42␤»
14:20 masak I'm with elf on that one.
14:20 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:20 moritz_ hrmpf
14:20 masak given should have for-loop semantics, and so it should copy.
14:21 moritz_ given and for both do bindings, no?
14:21 masak how could for do a binding?
14:21 masak (we've discussed this before)
14:21 moritz_ rakudo: my $a = 5; for $a { $a = 42; say $_ }
14:21 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«42␤»
14:22 moritz_ masak: both 'for' and 'given' simply pass a variable to the block
14:22 moritz_ masak: and during the call the parameter is bound
14:22 masak rakudo: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5; for @a, @b { @b = 42; .say }
14:22 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤»
14:22 M_o_C mberends: I'd just like to point out that there's already an HTML editor called proton, however I don't know wether it's trademarked.
14:23 masak if we're changing the name of proto, we could call it 'neutro'. or 'electro'. :)
14:23 jaffa8 template
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14:24 REPLeffect joined #perl6
14:24 carlin just call it bikeshedo and be done with it ;)
14:24 moritz_ masak: or neutrin :-)
14:24 moritz_ carlin++
14:24 masak :)
14:25 mberends I'd like to thank everyone for attending the bikeshed meeting and officially declared it closed.
14:25 masak we're not changing the name. we're just bikeshedding for the fun of it.
14:25 mberends xactly
14:25 jaffa8 bikeshedding
14:26 jaffa8 ?
14:26 jaffa8 I feel on the Moon.
14:26 sharada joined #perl6
14:26 * Su-Shee suggest a butterfly-like logo for proto.
14:26 masak jaffa8: it's a term for discussing details endlessly.
14:26 masak jaffa8: without actually producing anything of substance.
14:27 mberends jaffa8: especially pointless details such as what colour to make it.
14:29 kst joined #perl6
14:30 jaffa8 ok
14:31 carlin bikeshedding isn't a very intuitive name for it, we should change that
14:31 * masak rolls eyes
14:32 mberends masak: during our last discussion we were toying with whether sudo would be required for installs, and istr you were warm to the idea of a modules directory somewhere under $HOME
14:32 masak yes.
14:32 masak that seems to be the proto way to me, after some pondering.
14:32 * mberends is warm to that too
14:32 DanielC jaffa8: It comes from the saying that it is easier to agree on the design of a nuclear power plant than on how to make the bike shed.
14:33 DanielC jaffa8: For the power plant people will just nod their heads and agree with whatever you put down. But a bike shed is an easy project so everyone wants to have their say.
14:34 mberends masak: re-using a previous design guideline, the module directory should survive even if proto is removed
14:34 masak dang, I could use a LAST block right now.
14:35 Juerd At Hacking At Random 2009 the workshop building was called "the bikeshed" and had four rooms: yellow, green, red, blue.
14:35 masak mberends: yes. definitely.
14:35 masak mberends: so maybe we shouldn't name it something-with-proto.
14:35 moritz_ $PREFIX/lib/
14:36 masak aye.
14:36 mberends some people are discussing Perl 6 modules only (eg Rakudo, Pugs) and others are thinking Parrot modules.
14:36 mberends moritz_: yes
14:36 moritz_ so the question is what is $PREFIX?
14:36 mberends masak++ decides
14:37 mberends something after $HOME
14:37 jaffa8 can anyone modify pugs?
14:37 moritz_ jaffa8: anyone with a commit bit can
14:37 masak $HOME/.ecosystem/lib, perhaps?
14:37 jaffa8 Does anyone understand it code?
14:37 masak both Perl 6 and Parrot use 'ecosystem'.
14:38 masak jaffa8: I understand a little.
14:38 moritz_ jaffa8: probably audreyt does, mostly
14:38 moritz_ and others to various degrees
14:38 jaffa8 Is pugs faster than Rakudo?
14:39 moritz_ dunno
14:39 jaffa8 I mean compilation speed
14:39 masak jaffa8: try both of them and compare. :)
14:39 jaffa8 I could not compile pugs
14:39 masak in that case, Rakudo is faster :)
14:39 moritz_ :-)
14:40 jaffa8 I got stuck with ridicolous problem
14:40 mberends masak: .ecosystem resonates well with Plumage (security certificate expired) https://trac.parrot.org/pa​rrot/wiki/ModuleEcosystem
14:40 jaffa8 the setup could not find a header file
14:40 masak mberends: exactly.
14:41 masak and it probably doesn't collide with anything else.
14:41 jaffa8 I specified the path of the header file with -I switch but it had no effect
14:41 jaffa8 Is anyone familiar with this?
14:41 masak jaffa8: sorry to hear that. were audreyt here, she could probably help you.
14:42 jaffa8 it is a dream.
14:42 jaffa8 what is the chance of that?
14:45 mberends jaffa8: only a tiny chance. the -I option is probably not being passed to the subcommand that needs it. how about copying the header file to another directory that _is_ being used for header files?
14:45 jaffa8 I wonder what directories are used.
14:46 jaffa8 I do not know what directories are used.
14:46 mberends dunno, it might take you an interesting while to find it in the sources.
14:47 jaffa8 pugs seems to have a better design
14:47 jaffa8 it can produce all kind of output.
14:47 jaffa8 javascript.
14:47 mberends masak: .ecosystem it is then
14:47 masak jaffa8: pugs has been in development for some time.
14:48 jaffa8 but I guess rakudo can only output PIR
14:48 masak mberends: I half-fear the tuits needed to do the shift. I suppose fear is the wrong type of anticipation, but that's how it feels. any ideas how to lessen the blow?
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14:50 mberends masak: it doesn't intimidate me a much. I'll work on it first, you can repair my damage afterwards ;)
14:50 mberends *as much
14:50 masak sounds splendid.
14:51 masak I had to remove the comment about config.proto deprecation, because I started receiving bug reports (!) about it.
14:51 masak but I still think that's a good idea, since much of the config.proto file will likely change.
14:51 masak so, feel free to cherry-pick that commit.
14:51 araujo joined #perl6
14:52 jaldhar joined #perl6
14:52 mberends ah, some git-learn required here :)
14:52 masak git-cherry-pick means 'git, I want the commit that was made over there made over here' :)
14:54 mberends bash: git-cherry-pick: command not found # this is not your Mac
14:55 masak git cherry-pick --help # brings up the man page for me
14:56 * mberends reads the help now
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15:03 alester joined #perl6
15:07 jaffa8 what is the difference between c modifier in p6 and p5?
15:07 jaffa8 Is there any?
15:08 jaffa8 and what is the difference between g modifier in p6 and p5?
15:09 alester OK, everyone stop all your Perl 6 work!
15:09 alester Perl 5 needs threads!
15:10 * masak hugs alester
15:10 alester :-)
15:10 alester Sometimes I just have to get on my 3000-strong soapbox and set shit straight.
15:10 [particle]1 all your complaining about perl 5 threads won't make christmas come any sooner.
15:11 jaffa8 perl 5 has threads, to my knowledge
15:11 alester jaffa8: Yes, I know, we're kidding.
15:11 alester jaffa8: See top story on Perlbuzz.com
15:11 [particle] jaffa8 needs a link for context
15:12 [particle] http://perlbuzz.com/
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15:13 pmichaud Good morning, #perl6
15:13 alester pmichaud: Please exit this channel immediately and begin work on perl 5 threads.
15:13 DanielC o/ pmichaud
15:13 alester Also, let's surreptitiously talk about the things that we wnat to start PRing about.
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15:15 masak pmichaud: oh hai o/
15:15 DanielC alester: Perhaps not everyone in this channel is interested in perl 5 threads. I know that I'm not.
15:17 masak I'm simultaneously interested and not interested in Perl 5 threads.
15:18 DanielC I'm interested in the design of cool programming languages.
15:18 jaffa8 What does that mean?
15:19 masak languages from temperate zones, perhaps?
15:19 DanielC :-)
15:19 jaffa8 Why are you interested?
15:19 alester DanielC: It was a facetious comment.
15:20 alester I'm actually 100% uninterested in Perl 5 threads
15:20 alester and prob'ly 95% uninterested in new Perl 5 features
15:20 DanielC I'm not sure I can tell you what I am interested in anything... I'm interested in math, physics, open source and space colonization, but I could not really tell you why.
15:20 sri_kraih joined #perl6
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15:22 jaffa8 DanielC, you cannot tell... that is interestng.
15:22 DanielC jaffa8: I could try to rationalize and guess, but that's all it would be, rationalization.
15:24 DanielC There are a lot of interesting subjects. I studied astrophysics because the subject is fascinating to me. What more reason do I need?
15:24 jaffa8 you do not want to tell..
15:24 jaffa8 that is my guess.
15:25 masak hugme: hug jaffa8
15:25 * hugme hugs jaffa8
15:26 * DanielC is bewildered that some people expect one to rationalize one's personal likes and dislikes.
15:27 alester How can I get a make target to always rerun?  I can't make it a .PHONY because the file does exist.
15:27 frettled DanielC: perhaps you're one of us «ooh, SHINY!»-people :D
15:27 alester DanielC: I don't think anyone is expecting you to rationalize anythign.
15:27 masak can I get the PID of the current process from Rakudo?
15:28 alester $$?
15:28 DanielC rakudo: echo $$
15:28 pmichaud maybe from the $*OS object, if there is one
15:28 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near "$$"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
15:28 frettled rakudo: say $*PID
15:28 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
15:28 frettled hmm
15:28 pmichaud looks like the spec defines $*PID but Rakudo doesn't implement it
15:29 frettled rakudo: say $PROCESS::PID
15:29 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
15:29 frettled yup
15:29 frettled It's in S28.
15:30 alester That doesn't seem like it would be too hard to implement.
15:30 frettled rakudo: say $*PROGRAM_NAME
15:30 alester assuming that Parrot will give it to us.
15:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«/tmp/93niH7BmAH␤»
15:30 frettled Hmm, does rakudo implement system()?
15:30 frettled rakudo: say system("lsof $*PROGRAM_NAME")
15:30 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub system␤»
15:31 DanielC rakudo: say system('ls')
15:31 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub system␤»
15:31 frettled rakudo: say exec('echo OH HAI')
15:31 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub exec␤»
15:31 carlin system is run
15:31 DanielC oh... right
15:31 frettled rakudo: say run('echo OH HAI')
15:31 carlin rakudo: run('ls');
15:31 DanielC I forgot.
15:32 carlin Won't work in safe mode
15:32 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (lib/Safe.pm:25)␤»
15:32 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (lib/Safe.pm:25)␤»
15:32 frettled hee-hee
15:32 frettled rakudo: walk('echo slowly!')
15:32 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub walk␤»
15:32 frettled darnit, I thought walking was safer than running.
15:32 * carlin groans
15:32 frettled Is that my coat over there?
15:33 pmichaud rakudo:  say Rat.new(3,6);
15:33 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«3/6␤»
15:33 pmichaud rakudo: say Rat.new(3,6)+Rat.new(1,5);
15:33 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«21/30␤»
15:33 frettled neat.
15:33 pmichaud _o/
15:34 pmichaud rakudo:  say 3/6
15:34 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.5␤»
15:34 pmichaud that part needs fixing.
15:34 jaffa8 DanielC: All it means to me you do not know yourself.
15:34 frettled rakudo: say Num.new(Rat.new(3,6)+Rat.new(1,5));
15:34 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:35 DanielC @ignore jaffa8
15:35 lambdabot Not enough privileges
15:35 pmichaud rakudo:  say (Rat.new(3,6)+Rat.new(1,5)).Num
15:35 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«21␤»
15:35 frettled que?
15:35 pmichaud wt...?
15:35 pmichaud rakudo:  say (Rat.new(3,6)+Rat.new(1,5)).numerator
15:35 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«21␤»
15:35 frettled It interpreted it as a string and stopped at the slash?
15:35 pmichaud rakudo:  say (Rat.new(3,6)+Rat.new(1,5)).denominator
15:35 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«30␤»
15:35 pmichaud something else must've happened there
15:35 pmichaud checking
15:36 pmichaud rakudo:  say Rat.new(3,6).Num
15:36 masak in the interests of release-early: http://github.com/masak/perl6-literate/
15:36 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«3␤»
15:36 pmichaud rakudo: my $a = Rat.new(3,6); say $a;
15:36 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«3/6␤»
15:37 pmichaud rakudo: my $a = Rat.new(3,6); say $a.numerator + 0.0
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«3␤»
15:37 mikehh rakudo (a378770) builds on parrot r40892 - make test / make spectest (up to r28133) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc)
15:37 pmichaud rakudo: my $a = Rat.new(3,6); say $a.numerator + 0.0 / $a.denominator
15:37 pmichaud ohhhhh
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«3␤»
15:37 pmichaud oops
15:37 pmichaud my fault
15:37 pmichaud rakudo:  say 3.Num
15:37 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«3␤»
15:38 pmichaud fixing.
15:38 frettled \o/
15:38 frettled masak: I'm not sure whether that code is neat, scary, or both.
15:38 masak jaffa8: do you have an overwhelming need to inform people that they do not know themselves?
15:39 masak frettled: thank you. it's just a state machine. :)
15:39 masak I pondered whether to make it a grammar instead. it should be possible.
15:39 masak especially with variables thrown into the mix somehow.
15:39 jaffa8 masak: I was suprised that this had scared him so much.
15:39 abra joined #perl6
15:39 jaffa8 masak: to go as far as to ignore me.
15:40 masak jaffa8: I think it could be taken as an insult.
15:40 jaffa8 masak: Are you not surprised yourself?
15:40 masak jaffa8: no. though you do not indend it, you sometimes come off as slightly trollish.
15:40 baest joined #perl6
15:40 jaffa8 masak: it is hard to know where the limit of the other person are.
15:40 masak jaffa8: now, I know you have good intentions, but not everyone knows that.
15:41 frettled masak: Making it a grammar seems like a neat challenge.
15:41 masak frettled: sir, I challenge thee.
15:41 awwaiid joined #perl6
15:41 frettled masak: Oh, look over there, isn't that a diversion?
15:41 masak where? where?
15:41 frettled masak: right behind that B+ tree!
15:42 * masak turns head
15:42 masak I don't see anything behind that B+ tree.
15:42 * frettled sneaks away stealthily.
15:42 frettled Run today, and live to run another day!
15:42 * masak shouts "btw, you have commit access to perl6-literate now!" after frettled
15:43 * frettled mutters an expletive that would make mst proud.
15:43 pmichaud frettled: he'd probably curse you for it.
15:43 frettled haha :D
15:43 masak my advice would be to run the test suite while refactoring. then it should be a piece of cake.
15:43 frettled mm
15:43 * frettled places the idea on the ToDo list of learning :D
15:44 diakopter can p6eval pull/use a .pm from a url?
15:45 frettled that looks like something that shouldn't be permitted, and definitely not in safe mode
15:45 DanielC masak: I very much doubt that jaffa8 is anything but a troll. It is absurd to take one comment on IRC and declare that someone doesn't know himself. In my case the claim is particularly absurd, but you'd have to know me well to know that (I spend a lot of time in introspection).
15:46 DanielC masak: I *can* talk at great length about myself, my motivations and my inner mind, but I will not waste my time with a random troll on IRC.
15:48 justatheory joined #perl6
15:48 masak DanielC: you'll have to excuse me for intruding into the situation. events lately have made me interested in social IRC/blog dynamics. I personally don't believe that jaffa8 is a troll, but I'm still open to new impressions.
15:48 dalek rakudo: dd7587a | pmichaud++ | src/setting/Rat.pm:
15:48 dalek rakudo: Fix Rat.Num.
15:48 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​d7587a49cda3bb3e728cee5c6f260b7d6879903
15:48 masak DanielC: I do, however, believe that he managed (unwittingly) to insult you, and I do understand why.
15:49 sjohnson morning all
15:49 jaffa8 DanielC: My statement were inaccurate. there seem to be a lack of knowledge about yourself in certain area. Sometimes I forget about distances that separate people. I could also noticed that I stopped talking to you before this.
15:49 DanielC masak: It's not so much about insult. I just have better things to do with my time than justify my motivations to a random person on IRC.
15:50 masak DanielC: aye, that too.
15:50 jaffa8 DanielC: why did not you just say so?
15:50 masak jaffa8: I think it's all about protocol and context. there are some things you can say to strangers, and some things you can't.
15:51 frettled jaffa8: it should not be necessary to say so.  This is an IRC channel about Perl 6, and when people don't want to discuss themselves here, they certainly shouldn't be pressured into doing so.
15:51 masak jaffa8: "I think you do not know yourself" would be one of the things you can't.
15:51 frettled Can we get back to being cozy and cuddly regarding Perl 6, Rakudo, Parrot etc. now?  :D
15:51 masak oki! \o/
15:51 * masak cozes, cuddles
15:51 pmichaud No!  We need psychedelic attack butterflies!
15:51 moritz_ hugme: cuddle pmichaud
15:51 * hugme cuddles pmichaud
15:52 jaffa8 frettled: who is pressured? noone is forced to answer a question.
15:52 DanielC jaffa8: Rather, you have seem to have a very naive and narrow-minded view. It takes a certain amount of maturity and knowledge to know the limits of understanding. When I was young I was naive like you, and I thought I knew myself better than I do. With time I learned to be more humble about what I think I know.
15:53 kst joined #perl6
15:53 cotto joined #perl6
15:53 DanielC jaffa8: You don't know many of the things you think you know. For example, your memory is a lot more fragile and fallible than you think. Likewise it is with your understanding of the roots for your likes and dislikes.
15:53 DanielC jaffa8: It is then really absurd that you would then come and tell me that I don't know myself.
15:55 masak DanielC: are you sure this fellow did not insult you?
15:55 masak seems to me he hit a nerve.
15:55 DanielC masak: Oh, he did. What I meant earlier is that the insult is not the main point.
15:55 masak ah.
15:55 masak point taken.
15:55 DanielC masak: But he did hit a bit of a nerve.
15:56 masak DanielC: I know the feeling.
15:56 DanielC I hope that what I wrote above didn't come out too angry. It was meant to be an explanation.
15:57 moritz_ alester: hm, you can use .PHONY even though the file exists, no?
15:57 DanielC But human as I am, it's hard to be dispassionate in my reply.
15:57 alester but not if I don't know which
15:57 jaffa8 DanielC: I would be eager to answer something, I was told not to. if you want pm me.
15:57 moritz_ alester: ok
15:58 pmichaud rakudo:  say Rat.new(3,4).Num;
15:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.75␤»
15:58 DanielC jaffa8: Not particularly. My wife and I are going to the gym now.
15:58 pmichaud \o/
15:58 cdarroch joined #perl6
15:58 pmichaud rakudo:  say (Rat.new(3,6)+Rat.new(1,5)).Num
15:58 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0.7␤»
15:58 pmichaud \o/
15:59 jaffa8 Danielc: then that is it.. you know I do not want to be kicked out.
15:59 frettled pmichaud++
15:59 moritz_ pmichaud: but I think the revision number at the start of p6eval's output is wrong, I have to investigate which paths are wrong on the server
15:59 pmichaud moritz_: it undoubtedly is wrong.  0d4fe0 was an August 13 commit
16:00 masak pmichaud++
16:00 frettled Where does p6eval find its revision number from?
16:00 moritz_ frettled: from an outdated file
16:01 frettled moritz_: aha
16:01 frettled I thought the version number might be compiled in.
16:01 pmichaud I haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.
16:02 frettled Hmm.
16:02 carlin rakudo: say 10i;
16:03 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«0+10i␤»
16:03 carlin rakudo: say 10i.perl;
16:03 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ".perl;"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
16:04 carlin rakudo: say 10i.WHAT;
16:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Statement not terminated properly at line 2, near ".WHAT;"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
16:04 carlin rakudo: say WHAT 10i;
16:04 p6eval rakudo 0d4fe0: OUTPUT«Complex()␤»
16:05 frettled pmichaud: where's the code for the p6eval thingy?
16:05 pmichaud frettled: I have no idea.  :-|
16:05 frettled pmichaud: ack :(
16:05 carlin the pugs repo
16:06 frettled hmm!
16:06 carlin misc/evalbot
16:06 moritz_ aye
16:07 moritz_ I should add the build script too
16:08 bionoid joined #perl6
16:09 frettled Hmm, I see.
16:10 frettled It tries to fetch from /home/evalenv/rakudo/rakudo_revision.
16:11 frettled I also see the difficulty in changing the behaviour.
16:12 frettled An ugly hack could be to have a special command line syntax for rakudo that printed the revision at the beginning of each line, but, urgh.
16:13 frettled Also, that will mess up everything.  Hrms.
16:14 * frettled envisions: rakudo OUTPUT«0d4fe0 OH␤0d4fe0 HAI␤0d4fe0 IDJOT␤»
16:15 Karthz joined #perl6
16:15 carlin there is .git/ORIG_HEAD
16:16 masak how do I die() in Rakudo without generating a stack trace?
16:16 frettled masak: with honor?
16:16 frettled :)
16:17 frettled carlin: that's a bit long, though, isn't it?
16:17 frettled carlin: or is the revision printed by p6eval just the first six chars?
16:17 mberends masak: is perl6-literate the same as inside out pod?
16:17 masak mberends: I think so.
16:18 masak mberends: http://www.haskell.org/haske​llwiki/Literate_programming
16:19 dalek rakudo: 87f1a27 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
16:19 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 433 files, 12478 (72.9% of 17110) pass, 0 fail
16:19 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​7f1a27f8430470ac96c98931f84957d831d9a6f
16:19 masak 72.9%!
16:20 carlin frettled: it could be made to only do that
16:20 carlin I guess
16:20 takadonet come on 73%!
16:21 carlin almost 3/4 of the way there
16:21 frettled carlin: should be a simple substring extraction, yes
16:21 pugs_svn r28134 | moritz++ | [evalbot] add build script for rakudo and parrot
16:21 masak oh, and I just pushed a script that runs a literate Perl 6 script.
16:22 frettled scaryneat.
16:22 masak & # going out for a run
16:23 pmichaud the percentages being reported are actually off -- we need to fix that
16:23 Su-Shee joined #perl6
16:23 pmichaud it's not that Rakudo is passing a larger percentage of the test suite, it's that our methods for computing the size of the test suite are starting to produce smaller numbers
16:23 carlin evalbot must already do it, looking at the build script
16:24 pmichaud i.e.,  we can no longer look at "plan" statements for a rough estimate of the number of tests in the suite.
16:25 pugs_svn r28135 | moritz++ | [evalbot] hopefully fix the location of the rakudo_revision file
16:25 frettled \o/
16:26 cognominal_ joined #perl6
16:26 p6eval joined #perl6
16:26 moritz_ rakudo: say "OH HAI"
16:26 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
16:26 frettled hm.
16:26 moritz_ Can't open file '/home/evalenv/p/rakudo_revision': No such file or directory at evalbot.pl line 179.
16:28 pugs_svn r28136 | moritz++ | [evalbot] not only the location, also the name of the file has changed. moritz--
16:28 moritz_ rakudo: say "OH HAI"
16:28 p6eval joined #perl6
16:28 p6eval rakudo : OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
16:28 pugs_svn r28137 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge some more Rat-related tests.
16:29 * moritz_ goes home and will fix that later
16:29 pmichaud "Perl 6 -- Rats, Cats, and butterflies."
16:30 Su-Shee pmichaud: you forgot the parrot.
16:31 pmichaud You're correct, I did.
16:31 carlin the cat got there first
16:33 carlin Night all
16:38 ejs joined #perl6
16:41 jnthn rehi (for 30 mins or so)
16:43 pugs_svn r28138 | moritz++ | [evalbot] typo in file name + shorten revision number
16:44 jnthn pmichaud++: Looks like you've been doing some nice work on Rats. :-)
16:44 pugs_svn r28139 | moritz++ | [evalbot] remove double pipe
16:44 moritz_ moritz--
16:45 pmichaud jnthn: Thanks.  Mostly I decided it was low-hanging fruit and if I just got something started, others could quickly pick it up and run with it for a while.  :)
16:45 pmichaud (came out of our local hackathon here on Saturday)
16:46 pmichaud btw, from the hackathon we started tagging some rt tickets as "[LHF]"  ("low hanging fruit")
16:46 pmichaud these are things that someone might be able to resolve quickly with just a bit of effort
16:46 jnthn pmichaud: Ah, nice idea. :-)
16:46 jnthn I'll keep that in mind when going through RT in the future.
16:47 jnthn (e.g. to tag those that I think would be LHF)
16:47 pmichaud we also decided that tickets assigned to jnthn@jnthn.net aren't likely to be LHF  :)
16:47 jnthn :-P
16:47 pmichaud (except maybe for jnthn@jnthn.net :)
16:47 jnthn So long as you didn't decide assigning to jnthn@jnthn.net is the way to tag High Hanging Fruit. ;-)
16:49 jnthn I'll probably be around some more during the next few days.
16:49 jnthn Will try and get a Rakudo day in.
16:49 pmichaud excellent
16:49 jnthn Flying to Tokyo on Fri.
16:49 pmichaud me too -- my schedule is looking quite nice now that kids are back in school
16:50 jnthn Cool. :-)
16:50 Su-Shee jnthn: ooooh, how nice.
16:50 jnthn Su-Shee: Aye, I hope so. :-)
16:51 jnthn Su-Shee: Well, being in Tokyo will probably be the nice part rather than the 12 hours of flying. ;-)
16:51 Su-Shee jnthn: I see delicious noodle soup in your future.. :)
16:51 jnthn Mmmmm. :-)
16:52 moritz_ rakudo: say "hi"
16:52 p6eval rakudo 87f1a2: OUTPUT«hi␤»
16:53 * moritz_ looks if 87f1a2 makes any sense
16:53 moritz_ lo' and behold, it does!
16:55 rjh joined #perl6
16:57 moritz_ after only 5 comitts to fix two stupid thinkos/typos...
16:59 pmichaud afk # lunch
17:05 masak joined #perl6
17:06 hercynium joined #perl6
17:07 szabgab joined #perl6
17:11 jnthn moritz++ # persistence :-)
17:11 jnthn erm
17:11 jnthn perseverance
17:11 jnthn ...damm, my English sucks.
17:11 moritz_ self.write_to('moritz-state.txt')
17:11 jnthn ;-)
17:13 masak jnthn: oh hai!
17:14 jnthn lolitsmasak! :-D
17:14 jnthn masak: How's things?
17:14 masak jnthn: wonderful. I'm back from a very pleasant weekend in Härnösand.
17:14 masak jnthn: how's your things?
17:15 * moritz_ closely escaped capsizing on Friday ;-)
17:15 moritz_ the other boat was not so fortunate
17:16 jnthn masak: Had a friend visiting for a long weekend, which has given me excuses to wander around nice places and go to some nice food places. :-)
17:16 moritz_ (but that's not so tragic with small dinghies)
17:16 masak \o/
17:16 jnthn Ah, and for a little beer too. ;-)
17:16 moritz_ beer. Why did we expect that? ;-)
17:17 * jnthn looks up where Härnösand is
17:17 jnthn masak: ooooh...that's north. :-)
17:17 masak looking back at my weekend, I think I mostly consumed hugs. I have a whole month's worth with me back home. :)
17:18 masak jnthn: yes. it's the northernmost I've ever been.
17:18 masak thrice, now.
17:18 jnthn hugs++
17:18 masak we have a yearly get-together there.
17:18 * jnthn was happy his source of those is back in town
17:19 jnthn Even though I'm about to leave here for a month.
17:19 jnthn I changed train at Sundsvald - that's the closest I got to there. But I was in Ostersund for a bit.
17:19 jnthn I mostly remember it raining my entire time there. ;-)
17:19 masak we had fairly nice weather, I'd say.
17:19 masak some rain, but quite a bit of sun too.
17:19 jnthn Aye. I'd enjoyed good weather up at Abisko the couple of days before I went there.
17:20 jnthn And I had quite nice weather in Stockholm the days after Ostersund.
17:20 jnthn So on balance, I did well...I just didn't really get to see the city at its nicest.
17:20 jnthn The regional history museum there was thankfully good though.
17:21 * jnthn needs to give Blizkost some attention on this week's Rakudo day
17:21 masak jnthn: I'm still slightly puzzled that there's a place called Abisko in my country. one where you've been and I haven't, at that. :)
17:21 jnthn masak: If there's wifi, it'd be an epic place for a Perl 6 hackathon. ;-)
17:22 masak wow.
17:22 jnthn If we do it in summer, then the sun never sets, so we'd never have to sleep.
17:22 jnthn So it'd be like, really productive.
17:22 jnthn ;-)
17:22 masak :D
17:23 colomon Doing a C++ build in one window and running make spectest in another (with a virtual Windows box running in the background) really slows down my Mac.
17:24 jnthn I'm surprised and very happy to have already given out three commit bits to Blizkost, and that @other have already way out-stripped my patch count. :-)
17:24 moritz_ TEST_JOBS=1 make spectest # just one parallel test job
17:27 jnthn On $rakudo_day I hope I can at least get some basic support for being able to use a return value from eval'ing Perl 5 code back in Rakudo.
17:34 masak that would be extremely nice.
17:35 jnthn I think it's probably the simplest thing that pushes it from "just a little toy" to "maybe useful for something"
17:35 rfordinal left #perl6
17:38 dalek rakudo: 5c1bc83 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
17:38 dalek rakudo: Add S32-num/power.t and S32-num/rat.t.
17:38 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
17:38 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​c1bc83d7fa7a882a88b1bc2f5978a539d3340ab
17:38 masak jnthn: nod.
17:39 jnthn masak: Of course, that's dangerous, 'cus that's the stage where you'll also start submitting bug reports on it. :-)
17:40 masak very likely, yes.
17:41 jnthn \o/
17:41 jnthn masak++
17:41 jnthn OK, dinner time :-)
17:42 jnthn back later perhaps :-)
17:44 colomon Any advice for adding a sub in class namespace?  I've coded a simple GCD calculation function for Rat, but I'd rather not pollute the global namespace with it.
17:47 moritz_ my sub gcd ...
17:47 moritz_ although I had troubles with lexical subs in the setting
17:47 moritz_ colomon: you can also put it in Rat.new
17:48 colomon local subs can be defined in methods?
17:48 moritz_ that's not what I meant
17:48 moritz_ I meant that you just can put the logic into the new() method
17:49 colomon moritz_: sure, but that strikes me as inelegant.  :)
17:49 colomon let me try my sub first and see how that works.
17:49 moritz_ colomon: why? Rat is defined to be immutable
17:50 moritz_ so whenever you change something, you have to create a new Rat
17:50 colomon Good point.
17:50 moritz_ so you can put the simplification logic in there anyway
17:50 colomon Still, I think I just like simple functions.  :)
17:50 colomon Think I just discovered that Rat - doesn't work yet.
17:51 colomon (Adding tests while I wait for my C++ code to compile.)
17:51 moritz_ colomon: anyway, your next patch should add yourself to CREDITS
17:51 colomon I haven't done that anywhere yet.  ;)
17:51 moritz_ (rakudo patch, I mean)
17:52 colomon I think pmichaud++ got a little carried away with the cutting and pasting in Rat -- subtraction operator is just the addition operator again with a different name.
17:52 colomon :)
17:53 moritz_ patches + tests welcome!
17:53 kst joined #perl6
17:54 ejs joined #perl6
17:54 colomon They will be coming soon.
17:55 colomon Huh.  So actually, the easiest way to get this right might be to commit the rakudo-change in git, then roll it back locally, then get the spectest working without it, then commit that to svn?
17:56 moritz_ colomon: or just skip any new tests brutally
17:57 sevvie joined #perl6
17:57 masak rakudo: say Rat.new(1,2)
17:57 p6eval rakudo 5c1bc8: OUTPUT«1/2␤»
17:57 masak rakudo: say Rat.new(1,2) - Rat.new(1,2)
17:57 p6eval rakudo 5c1bc8: OUTPUT«4/4␤»
17:57 masak o_O
17:58 pmichaud yeah, I might've missed a sign change
17:58 colomon I've got it fixed locally here, will push patch in a few minutes.
17:58 masak \o/
17:58 masak then I'll stand down the bug alert.
17:58 moritz_ pmichaud++ # laying the foundations so that the rest of the Rat work ist mostly LHF
17:58 TimToady I think the page now looks drab; maybe we should have two top-level pages: the Kansas version, and the Oz version, and people can bookmark whichever one they want
17:59 TimToady .5 * :-)
17:59 colomon moritz_: Amen.
18:00 colomon Okay, got my sub gcd working.  Give me a minute or two to sort things out and then check them in.
18:00 masak TimToady: that might be a wise idea. to me, it doesn't look drab, it looks like someone who knows which colors can go together picked the colors.
18:00 TimToady I know, we'll tweek the colors depending on whether they say perl6.org, perl6.com, perl.info, etc :)
18:01 masak :)
18:01 moritz_ perl6.biz is black and white, then
18:01 frettled perl6.name is what?  :D
18:01 masak perl6.info will have a fixed-width green font on black background, and no graphics.
18:01 frettled perl6.com will have Flash?
18:01 masak no please no
18:02 TimToady well, Camelia can change the colors of her wings at will
18:02 Su-Shee I take the Oz-version though I doubt that those colors are possible on computers. ;)
18:03 TimToady also, one other quibble I have is that people keep using the "patches welcome" meme, but this is true only to a certain extent
18:03 TimToady Camelia is fairly non-negotiable by now
18:03 moritz_ TimToady: patches welcome to fix that ;-)
18:03 moritz_ SCNR
18:03 pmichaud we do need a link to a page that describes Camelia a bit better
18:03 moritz_ aye
18:03 pmichaud just a sec
18:03 pmichaud (fixing)
18:04 TimToady Editorial policy can't easily be decided by committee
18:04 pmichaud ...but it can be published, which makes discussions on the topic a bit easier
18:04 TimToady troo
18:04 frettled Groo's clever twin?
18:05 pmichaud right now there's no published policy, so it's easy to say "anything goes" even though it really doesn't
18:05 TimToady any twin of Groo's would be clever by comparison
18:06 frettled pmichaud: Yep.  A published policy would be nice to point towards.
18:06 TimToady pugs/misc/camelia.txt was a start on that
18:07 pmichaud hmm.  I tried making "Camelia" (in the header text) a link to camelia.txt, but it doesn't visually look right.
18:07 pmichaud maybe a link from "butterflies" instead
18:08 moritz_ or or just the first Camelia
18:08 TimToady another thing that should be pointed out is that this is just the Perl 6 logo, not necessarily the logo of any distribution of Perl 6.
18:09 TimToady Red Hat and Ubuntu don't use Tux.
18:09 colomon Rat patch sent.
18:09 pmichaud I'll push what I just did, others can patch
18:09 pugs_svn r28140 | pmichaud++ | [perl6.org] Create some links to camelia.txt .
18:09 TimToady also, the complaint that it looks juvenile is quite accurate, because it's *intended* to look that way as a sign of renewed youth
18:10 * moritz_ is sorry for brining such pulitic discussion to #perl6
18:10 pmichaud http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/do​cs/feather/perl6.org/index.html
18:10 moritz_ pmichaud: looks good
18:10 moritz_ s/good/fine/
18:10 pmichaud oh, here's another fix
18:11 pmichaud (working)
18:11 frettled :)
18:13 [particle] the download link should explicitly mention rakudo, because right now it looks like rakudo *is* perl 6
18:13 TimToady someone needs to start Perl6 University so we can get perl6.edu.  :)
18:13 pugs_svn r28141 | pmichaud++ | [perl6.org]:  Revise link for Camelia in "Specification"
18:13 cognominal_ jnthn, I added blizkost to ohloh :  https://www.ohloh.net/p/blizkost/
18:13 TimToady [particle]: I was thinking that would likely be part of Su-Shee's redesign
18:13 pmichaud http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/do​cs/feather/perl6.org/index.html  # reload
18:13 pmichaud I changed the entry for "Camelia" in the Specification
18:13 moritz_ what about perl6.mmil? :/
18:13 pmichaud it used to be "camelia.pdf"
18:14 pmichaud now it talks more directly about Camelia herself, with a link to the PDF
18:14 frettled pmichaud++
18:14 moritz_ colomon: spectesting your patch
18:14 TimToady the text still says PDF
18:14 moritz_ (and I removed some trailing spaces)
18:14 pmichaud ...text still says PDF?
18:15 frettled I think the change is only in svn right now.
18:15 pmichaud it hasn't pushed to perl6.org yet -- there's a delay
18:15 frettled It will happily migrate to the front page when the winds are right, some butterfly has to flap its wings a bit first.
18:15 moritz_ TimToady: there are two links - one says PDF and goes to a PDF
18:15 TimToady ah, I see
18:16 frettled Let's overexplain it once more, just for -Ofun ;)
18:16 * ruoso gives up trying to make the perl6.org site work for people with larger fonts
18:16 ruoso it's broken again
18:16 TimToady hopefully that can also be dealt with in Su-Shee's redesign
18:16 [particle] maybe we need some ruby folks.
18:16 Woody2143 joined #perl6
18:16 pugs_svn r28142 | colomon++ | [t/spec] More simple Rat tests.
18:17 moritz_ ruoso: since the design will be replaced soonish there's not really a point
18:18 pmichaud I also made a link from the logo itself to the camelia.txt page
18:18 Su-Shee I log everything.
18:18 * frettled panics
18:18 moritz_ Su-Shee: so do;  I see /topic :-)
18:18 masak on my screen, the design always looked wonky due to my browser window not being wide enough. instead of three boxes per line, I have two. :/
18:18 * sri_kraih is thinking about drawing a "badass" version of camelia :)
18:19 ruoso masak, that's my case as well, because of the larger fonts
18:19 TimToady for all their problems, tables do a better job of keeping the text in the boxes
18:19 frettled strangely enough, the width is no problem on my netbook
18:19 frettled it's the height :)
18:19 masak ruoso: we're both suffering from widebrowserism, then.
18:20 ruoso TimToady, tables break accessibility
18:20 frettled mobile browsers (earlier known as "phones") and netbooks are "forcing" web designers to rethink their web pages
18:20 moritz_ ruoso: not true
18:20 TimToady then make perl6.info accessible :)
18:20 moritz_ ruoso: I know blind people, and in general they don't have problems with tabled layouts
18:21 masak http://giveupandusetables.com/
18:21 frettled Su-Shee: One wish for the redesign: please place a download link near the top of the page, where people will see it quickly :)
18:21 pmichaud within the PmWiki community we went through very long and heated discussions about the merits of table versus non-table layouts
18:21 frettled pmichaud: and ended up doing plaintext?  :D
18:21 TimToady let's throw 361 RFCs at Su-Shee and see if she takes six months to recover like I did :)
18:21 pmichaud the final answer was that tables weren't ideal, but they were often less evil than the alternatives (more)
18:22 frettled TimToady: point taken :D
18:22 pmichaud of course, it's quite different in a wiki context because the content isn't static
18:22 pmichaud most approaches to making layouts table-less also assume that the relative sizes of the components are known and/or fixed
18:22 frettled I like floating elements, but there are still differences in rendering that are less than trivial to fix.
18:23 pmichaud but the conclusion that we came to as a group was that making good-quality layouts using tables was far easier than doing table-less layouts
18:23 moritz_ they don't have to be rendered identical; they just have to be rendered all OK
18:23 frettled I did some work on this as part of my master studies in 2000-ish, and things haven't improved much regarding floating elements since then.
18:23 frettled (but they have improved)
18:23 pmichaud in particular, table-based layouts are much easier to maintain over time
18:23 frettled yes, except for vertical placement
18:24 pmichaud anyway, that's my experience on the topic
18:24 moritz_ anyway, I'll leave that decision to th(os)e who actually implement it
18:24 TimToady it would be nice to have context-sensitive floating elements that know how they got floated and change things that don't influence how the float was calculated, such as color
18:24 frettled mm
18:24 pmichaud TimToady: maybe we should throw some cups and work on redesigning CSS :)
18:25 frettled Recent CSS and AJAX can help there.
18:25 kst joined #perl6
18:25 TimToady I wouldn't mind the 3-blocks to 2-blocks problem nearly so much if the blocks could change their color
18:25 Su-Shee frettled: the download link was placed right in the middle of the page, but since more links were added, the layout started to scroll.
18:25 TimToady frettled: I remind myself that CSS also could stand for Cross Site Scripting
18:26 frettled TimToady: we use XSS for that these days :)
18:26 [particle] blocks can change their color, if js in enabled
18:26 pmichaud I've alw.... what frettled++ said
18:26 [particle] we can determine browser width, and load the proper css file
18:26 pugs_svn r28143 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge Rat test that colomon++ has fixed in Rakudo
18:26 TimToady well, js is okay by me, but flash is too far
18:27 * moritz_ votes against JS
18:27 frettled I couldn't agree more regarding Flash.
18:27 frettled moritz_: JS is nice if the site works without it.
18:27 pmichaud (couldn't agree more)  perhaps you're just not trying hard enough
18:27 pmichaud :)
18:27 frettled That is, menus etc. should continue to work if JS is disabled.
18:27 [particle] right
18:27 dalek rakudo: 4fc254d | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/setting/Rat.pm:
18:27 dalek rakudo: Add gcd function and use it to reduce Rats to simplest form. Also fix - operator.
18:27 dalek rakudo: Signed-off-by: Moritz Lenz <moritz@faui2k3.org>
18:27 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​fc254d8194e7b03cae630f97a995110a09e3456
18:27 frettled pmichaud:  :)
18:28 [particle] and the site should work if css is disabled, too
18:28 pmichaud 0
18:28 pmichaud +        $numerator /= $gcd;
18:28 pmichaud 0
18:28 pmichaud +        $denominator /= $gcd;
18:28 pmichaud won't work.
18:28 moritz_ uhm, why?
18:28 pmichaud because infix:</> of two Ints produces a Rat
18:28 TimToady you need div
18:29 moritz_ oh.
18:29 colomon Errr... I thought infix / produced a Num, and infix div produced a Rat?
18:29 colomon that certainly seems to be how things work today?
18:29 TimToady see most recent change to S03
18:29 colomon rakudo: say (1 / 3).WHAT
18:30 p6eval rakudo 5c1bc8: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
18:30 TimToady I decided Rats pretending to be Nums was probably a bad idea
18:30 colomon rakudo: say (1 div 3).WHAT
18:30 p6eval rakudo 5c1bc8: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
18:30 TimToady just last week
18:30 pmichaud S03:698
18:30 pmichaud C<< infix:</> >>
18:30 pmichaud If both operands are of integer type, the operator returns the
18:30 pmichaud corresponding C<Rat> value.
18:31 TimToady is more consistent with the use of 3/7 as a Rat literal too.
18:31 japhb joined #perl6
18:31 * ruoso still unconfortable about the idea that Num doesn't include all types of numbers
18:31 TimToady and we didn't have a way to get at the integer division primitive
18:32 TimToady "include" is ill defined
18:32 colomon Errr... does that imply that everything we've done with Rat has div and / backwards?
18:32 pmichaud colomon: it might.
18:32 * ruoso means the "Complex ~~ Num" sense of "include"
18:32 pmichaud I hadn't been looking at infix:<div> much
18:32 colomon Boy, it sure does.
18:32 TimToady we need to come up with a set of roles that describe behaviors, but I think those are a higher level than Int, Num, and Rat
18:33 colomon Any objections to me taking ten minutes to swap those usages, then?
18:33 colomon (It sounds much more appealing than my $work at the moment.)
18:33 pmichaud no objections
18:33 ruoso why can't we use the math definition?
18:33 moritz_ colomon: no, you even get 15 ;-)
18:34 pmichaud TimToady:  possible fossil  at S02:636
18:34 moritz_ pmichaud++ # reviewing commits
18:35 TimToady fixing
18:37 pmichaud my interpretation  "Complex ~~ Num" being true would be that everywhere that one could use a Num argument, a Complex argument would be handled as well.  I think this would tend to confuse a lot of end-programmers.
18:37 masak nod.
18:37 pmichaud if I write    sub foo(Num $x) { ... }    I wouldn't expect $x to be able to be a Complex
18:37 pmichaud or, if Num "includes Complex", then I want a type that excludes them.
18:38 moritz_ like, Real
18:38 pmichaud (and it would probably have to be called "Float")
18:38 pmichaud I wouldn't want "Real" because floating-point representations aren't really Real :)
18:38 ruoso Real is the math name
18:38 TimToady Flt
18:38 ruoso and it does make a lot of sense
18:38 moritz_ the problem with "Float" is that people will ask where the Doubles are
18:38 pmichaud I always read "Flt" as "flight", though.
18:38 ruoso pmichaud, that's the point where I think we need to split conceptual types from storage types
18:39 ruoso Float is a storage types
18:39 ruoso *type
18:39 TimToady Int, Num, and Rat are Storage Types (abstract)
18:39 ruoso Real is a conceptual type
18:39 TimToady I repeat, define the math roles at a higher level than that, please
18:39 ruoso TimToady, I'd replace Num by Float in that case
18:39 TimToady Imaginary ~~ Numeric is fine
18:39 TimToady Float is ugly
18:40 TimToady that's why it's Num
18:40 pmichaud Numeric++
18:40 ruoso I'm fine if the Math types have long names
18:40 colomon Okay, I've just gotten div for Rat out of the spectests, as far as I can tell.  Of course, this will break the world until Rakudo catches up (which I will attempt next).  Should I check it in now?  Seems unwise...
18:40 TimToady and Real can be Rat|Num
18:40 ruoso Numeric, Complex, Imaginary, Real, Integer, Natural
18:40 TimToady that is, both Rat and Num does Real
18:41 pmichaud colomon: you can always temporarily fudge the tests
18:41 ruoso TimToady, that's what I mean, yes
18:41 colomon pmichaud: True.  Suppose I should go ahead, do that, check things in, and then look at fixing the operators themselves?
18:42 ruoso in fact we have both Rational and Irrational as subsets of Real
18:42 ruoso and Integer is a subset of Rational
18:42 pmichaud colomon: the other approach would be to submit the test changes along with the rakudo patch :)
18:42 TimToady Int, Num, and Rat are like the intermediate layer of a neural net that crossbars the inputs to the outputs
18:42 pmichaud colomon: still another approach would be to get you a Rakudo commitbit :)
18:42 colomon pmichaud: You mean at the same time, via the two different methods of patching?  Or generating a patch file for pugs as well.
18:43 pmichaud colomon: generate a patch for pugs as well
18:43 pmichaud it's just "svn diff"
18:43 colomon Sure, but I have a commit bit there!  ;)
18:43 ruoso http://www.mathsisfun.com/s​ets/images/number-sets.gif
18:43 TimToady that is, pragmatic abstractions like Rat are mediating between the mathematical abstractions and the machine types
18:43 pmichaud yes, but by submitting them together you can make sure the tests get updated the same time as rakudo
18:44 TimToady so the third layer is appropriate
18:44 ruoso TimToady, agreed... so we have three sets of types
18:44 pmichaud anyway, I'd personally go with the fudge approach if it were me
18:44 ruoso Numeric, Complex, Imaginary, Real, Irrational, Rational, Integer, Natural
18:45 pmichaud maybe we should just call the types   N, Z, Q, R, I, and C  :-P
18:45 ruoso pmichaud, we could use the proper unicode symbosl
18:45 pmichaud even .... exactly :)
18:45 jeekobu Transcendental, Algebraic
18:45 colomon ruoso++ for a good kind of insanity
18:46 pmichaud rakudo:  say "\c[DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL R]"
18:46 p6eval rakudo 5c1bc8: OUTPUT«ℝ␤»
18:46 TimToady just keep your mits off my TLTs
18:46 jeekobu Computable
18:47 pmurias please don't make perl 6 use silly letters
18:47 TimToady define "silly letter"
18:47 ruoso TimToady, TLT?
18:47 TimToady Three Letter Types
18:47 pmichaud afk for a bit
18:48 ruoso pmurias, the math roles are going to have specific uses, I think it's pretty much ok to have them with the unicode symbols
18:48 ruoso I even think the mathematicians will thank us
18:49 ruoso there isn't a symbol for Numeric, I guess
18:50 moritz_ is there any numeric type more general than Complex?
18:50 molaf joined #perl6
18:51 TimToady the roles should be spelled out, but we can make it easy to get the symbols, as with Sets
18:51 Zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
18:51 TimToady I think this should probably be general policy
18:51 pmurias molaf: surreal numbers
18:51 pmurias sorry moritz_
18:51 colomon moritz_: Yes, but it's sort of orthogonal to the divisions you guys have been looking at.
18:51 TimToady maybe a pragma saying "whenever you have the choice of importing Unicode symbols, do so"
18:51 pmurias moritz_: i was wrong sorry
18:52 colomon Basically you define really abstract concepts and see what fits.
18:52 pmurias use i-have-a-fancy-keyboard;
18:52 payload joined #perl6
18:52 colomon Like "groups" and "rings".
18:52 moritz_ you mean like groups, rings, vector spaces, hilbert spaces
18:52 moritz_ allright
18:52 ruoso ℂ, 𝕀, ℝ, ℚ, ℤ, ℕ
18:53 pmurias are those distinct letters or just a traditional way of writing them
18:53 ruoso pmurias, they are specific to the math use
18:53 colomon I guess I'd like to see a more formal proposal for this.  The geek part of me loves getting the unicode symbols in there, but it's not at all clear to me how you can usefully program using this information.
18:53 sharada what about H
18:53 kst joined #perl6
18:54 ruoso TimToady, what about Complex? are you going to define a TLT for it?
18:54 TimToady it's been considered in the past
18:54 sharada
18:54 TimToady but none of them look very good
18:55 pmichaud colomon: for most programs I suspect one wouldn't need to use these higher-level types
18:55 ruoso TimToady, because there isn't another name for the conceptual set\
18:55 masak joined #perl6
18:56 TimToady R_I  :)
18:58 ruoso RnI
18:58 alester OK, who has the serious psychological issues/  Fess up!
18:59 colomon pmichaud: I guess what I'm trying to say is that for most things, it seems like the knowledge that this numeric type forms a ring is much more useful than the knowledge it is a complex number.
19:00 colomon and it seems like a lot of work "just" to give yourself the ability to have, say, complex numbers defined using Rats rather than Nums.
19:00 ruoso N2D
19:00 ruoso Number with 2 Dimensions
19:00 colomon Actually, maybe that's not the greatest example, because I can see room for a "complex" role no matter what.
19:01 TimToady ruoso: no, the dimensions are wonky :)
19:01 TimToady from a vector-space point of view
19:01 literal alester: I'm working on automated testing for vim-perl, will commit it to my fork soon, just so you know
19:01 alester AWESOME
19:01 alester you saw my ticket?
19:01 literal yeah
19:02 alester literal: That is SO SO SO SO SO KICKASS THANK YOU
19:02 alester I mean, assuming you do it. :-)
19:02 colomon Hey, I've got the rat.t spectest running again.
19:02 alester Otherwise it's just SO KICKASS for trying.
19:02 colomon Now let's see how badly I blew up the rest of the world.
19:02 literal I've only got a few small kinks to work out, but I have to go play some pool, so I thought I'd let you know I've got something
19:02 alester But if you can pull it off, you get four extra SO
19:03 TimToady I have enough trouble with one
19:03 literal :)
19:04 ezra joined #perl6
19:04 ruoso TimToady, C99 does define a complex type, but I'm not sure there is platform specific native support for math with complex numbers...
19:05 ruoso maybe there isn't a point in a non-high-level Complex type
19:05 colomon Hmmm... maybe the right way to state my objection is, what functions make sense to define on Int that one should not define on Rat?  In other words, why would the abstract roles be different?
19:05 |Ryan52 joined #perl6
19:05 ruoso hmm... no... I'm wrong...
19:05 ruoso every number ~~ Complex
19:05 ruoso but not every number ~~ R_I
19:06 ruoso because R_I would mean it actually has two slots (one for the real part, other for the imaginary)
19:07 TimToady yes, the pragmatic types imply something about slots, without overspecifying the slots
19:07 TimToady that seems like a good way to look at it
19:09 TimToady but I do think the math folk would rather write Complex and have it pun into a class with a default implementation of R_I, as it were
19:09 ruoso hmm
19:09 colomon sharada: Ah, yes, you were pointing out the obvious set of numbers that contains Complex.  I forgot that H was Hamilton numbers (quaternions).
19:09 ruoso it does make a lot of sense...
19:09 * PerlJam wonders if he's a "math folk" then
19:09 ruoso because Rat is simply a number with two slots as well
19:10 ruoso and so is Float
19:10 M_o_C joined #perl6
19:10 TimToady but also a relationship between the slots
19:10 ruoso sure... the type defines how many slots and what they mean
19:11 ruoso then you have the actual implementation types (native?)
19:12 TimToady some of them are considered native
19:12 TimToady but there are potentially many implementation types that look more like objects
19:12 TimToady gets fuzzy
19:13 TimToady native more or less means the hardware will get upset if you try to add slots to this
19:13 zamolxes joined #perl6
19:14 ruoso TimToady, native to Perl 6, I mean, not to the hardware
19:14 TimToady derivation is constrained not to change representation
19:14 RonOreck joined #perl6
19:14 ruoso yeah... that's the point... the vm needs to be able to do calculations with them
19:15 TimToady augment int32 { has $.foo } # kaboom
19:15 ruoso I think it's quite sane to constrain the changes in representation of number implementation types
19:16 ruoso so we leave some room for optimization
19:16 ruoso you can customize the other two layers already
19:17 * ruoso .oO( thinking about slots, it makes even less sense to call Float as Num, because it's actually two numbers.. )
19:19 colomon Errr... if Float is two, then the standard Complex implementation is four, no?
19:20 ruoso colomon, 2 slots that *might* hold 2 slots each
19:20 ruoso colomon, it's not that Complex itself holds 4 slots
19:20 ruoso after all, you can have a Complex built with two Integers
19:20 ruoso 1 + 1i
19:20 donaldh joined #perl6
19:22 ruoso but Complex as the conceptual type doesn't imply the number of slots
19:22 ruoso since 1 ~~ Complex
19:22 ruoso R_I does
19:23 ruoso (I think that name will stick)
19:23 * moritz_ still doesn't know what R_I is supposed to mean
19:24 ruoso Real and Imaginaryh
19:36 colomon moritz_: When I said ten minutes, I wasn't factoring in the fact that the spectests take longer than that to run by themselves on my machine.  Sigh....
19:37 moritz_ colomon: no hurry.
19:38 colomon Well, I should be doing $work at some point here...
19:39 ruoso TimToady, do you think we have a spec-candidate definition already?
19:40 moritz_ rakudo: 3 % *
19:40 p6eval rakudo 4fc254: OUTPUT«Ambiguous dispatch to multi 'infix:%'. Ambiguous candidates had signatures:␤:(Any $a, Whatever $b)␤:(Any $a, Whatever $b)␤in Main (/tmp/zLrp2K91Qt:2)␤»
19:40 moritz_ OH HAI; SOMEBODY BROKE MY SVG::PLOT MODULE
19:40 moritz_ or something ;-)
19:44 moritz_ dammit, I should include every feature I use in the test suite somewhere
19:45 colomon Wow, running make spectest has generated two rakudo's both of which are currently using 1+ GB of real memory (2+ GB of virtual memory) and  almost all my CPU cycles.
19:45 colomon And hey, core dump!
19:46 colomon Parrot VM: PANIC: out of mem!
19:47 colomon Looks like that was arith.t.
19:47 moritz_ that's usually an indication for an infinite loop
19:47 * ruoso decommute &
19:49 pugs_svn r28144 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test for RT #68894, $number % *
19:50 pmichaud looks like there's lots of copy-paste errors in Whatever.pm
19:50 pmichaud fixing
19:50 colomon I'm guessing the entire section of Int / in arith.t is probably wrong with the current spec?
19:51 moritz_ colomon: that could very well be the case
19:54 masak joined #perl6
19:54 pmichaud my @a = <a b>;
19:54 pmichaud my $t = join '', map { @a[$_ % *] }, 1..5;
19:54 pmichaud is $t, 'ababa', '$_ % * works';
19:54 pmichaud ...shouldn't that be 'babab' ?
19:54 moritz_ ah, Whatever.pm line 65 should be s/Whatever/WhateverCode/
19:54 moritz_ pmichaud: or 0..4, right
19:55 pmichaud anyway, I have Whatever.pm fixed locally, spectesting now
19:55 pugs_svn r28145 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix $_ % * test, pmichaud++
19:56 moritz_ pmichaud: did you try if my starry obfu works after the operator changes?
19:57 pugs_svn r28146 | lwall++ | [S02] remove fossil noticed by pmichaud++
19:57 pmichaud moritz_: I meant to do so, but didn't get a chance to do it.
19:57 pmichaud I hope it still works :|
19:57 moritz_ pmichaud: I just tried, still works
19:57 pmichaud \o/
19:57 moritz_ it's a nice stress test
19:57 pmichaud and "whew!"
19:58 pmichaud bbiab
20:00 colomon Wow, that's a lot of failing tests.
20:02 colomon Is Inf an Int?
20:03 colomon rakudo: say Inf.WHAT
20:03 p6eval rakudo 4fc254: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
20:03 Hashwolf joined #perl6
20:04 colomon rakudo: say NaN.WHAT
20:05 p6eval rakudo 4fc254: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
20:11 pugs_svn r28147 | moritz++ | [perl6.org] (permissive) robots.txt
20:12 cotto joined #perl6
20:13 moritz_ oh wow, on Saturday we had 2.4k visitors on perl6.org
20:17 pmichaud is there a google analytics tag on that site?
20:17 moritz_ no
20:17 moritz_ and I won't add one (privacy)
20:18 pugs_svn r28148 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge now-passing RT #68894.
20:18 pmichaud Ticket resolved.
20:18 moritz_ thanks
20:18 dalek rakudo: e005879 | pmichaud++ | src/setting/Whatever.pm:
20:18 dalek rakudo: Fix copy-pasto errors in Whatever.pm .
20:18 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​0058798d202bb972a48b44e035751c61a745a2d
20:20 pmichaud afk again for a while (run to store)
20:23 Zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
20:28 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
20:31 colomon About 1/3 of the way through the swap(div, /) spectest errors...
20:35 colomon Errr... anyone out there know why »div« might work when >>div<< fails with a "ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!" error?
20:39 * frettled just finished glancing at the Wikipedia article for quaternions.  Shame on you, colomon and ruoso, now you got me thinking about how I could write a sensible blog post about it.  ;)
20:41 moritz_ colomon: might be a mis-parse
20:42 colomon Actually, it's weirder than that, I misread the error.
20:42 moritz_ I know this error from unterminated ternary operators
20:42 moritz_ rakudo: 1 ?? 3
20:42 p6eval rakudo 4fc254: OUTPUT«ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
20:42 colomon I switched »/« to »div«, and that seems to have broken >>xx<< twenty lines later.
20:43 frettled Is this what we call involuntary refactoring?
20:43 colomon No, it's >>div<< after all?
20:43 colomon frettled: yes.
20:44 moritz_ colomon: »div« and >>div<< should be identical
20:44 frettled IIRC, all unicodish variants have ASCII equivalents.
20:45 colomon I think >>div<< isn't parsing correctly.
20:45 moritz_ note that it's missing from build/gen_metaop_pir.pl
20:46 moritz_ so the >>div<< hyper op is never generated
20:46 colomon Any hints on how to fix that?
20:47 lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "generate >>div<< etc. for colomon++" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86326
20:48 moritz_ (note that this change might require a reconfigure)
20:48 frettled hmm, it's really that easy to make a new one?
20:49 * moritz_ dearly hopes so
20:50 colomon Okay, cross your fingers...
20:50 mikehh_ joined #perl6
20:50 frettled Then again, it's not _really_ easy, because it makes it slightly awkward for user-defined hyper operators.
20:50 moritz_ frettled: does it?
20:51 moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<foo>($a, $b) { "$a foo $b }; say <a b c> »foo« (1, 2, 3)
20:51 p6eval rakudo 4fc254: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "\"$a foo $b"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
20:51 moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<foo>($a, $b) { "$a foo $b" }; say <a b c> »foo« (1, 2, 3)
20:51 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«a foo 1b foo 2c foo 3␤»
20:51 frettled hmm
20:52 colomon rakudo: sub infix:<foo>($a, $b) { "$a foo $b" }; say <a b c> >>foo<< (1, 2, 3)
20:52 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«a foo 1b foo 2c foo 3␤»
20:52 frettled Okay, then that's not «slightly awkward», it's just awesome.
20:52 moritz_ ;-)
20:53 frettled hmm.
20:53 colomon moritz_++ # >>div<< now works.
20:55 kst joined #perl6
20:58 frettled rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; say <a b c> Z (1, 2, 3) >>fnord<< <x y z> Z (7, 8, 9)
20:58 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected Associative, but got Int for %a in call to infix:fnord␤in sub infix:fnord (/tmp/rixx0Nfi7A:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/rixx0Nfi7A:2)␤»
20:58 frettled Grok error in frettled line 956 234 522.
20:59 moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; say %(<a b c> Z (1, 2, 3))  >>fnord<< %(<x y z> Z (7, 8, 9))
20:59 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«␤»
21:00 moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; say (%(<a b c> Z (1, 2, 3))  >>fnord<< %(<x y z> Z (7, 8, 9))
21:00 p6eval rakudo e00587:  ( no output )
21:00 moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; say (%(<a b c> Z (1, 2, 3))  fnord %(<x y z> Z (7, 8, 9))
21:00 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " (%(<a b c"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2550)␤»
21:01 ruoso joined #perl6
21:01 moritz_ frettled: your >>fnord<< expects a list of hashes on both sides - you don't supply them
21:01 frettled List of hashes, even.  Hrm!  Good point.
21:03 moritz_ rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; say ({ a => 1}, { b => 2 }) >>fnord<< ({ c => 2}, { d => 4 })
21:03 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«a cb d␤»
21:03 moritz_ better? ;-)
21:03 frettled absolutely :)
21:04 * ruoso back
21:04 frettled o/~
21:05 frettled rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; %h=({ a => 1}, { b => 2 }) >>fnord<< ({ c => 2}, { d => 4 }); say %h.perl;
21:05 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«Symbol '%h' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/msOQqWBy94:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
21:06 frettled whooops.
21:06 moritz_ my %h = ... will be just fine
21:06 frettled rakudo: sub infix:<fnord>(%a, %b) { %a.keys Z %b.keys }; my %h=({ a => 1}, { b => 2 }) >>fnord<< ({ c => 2}, { d => 4 }); say %h.perl;
21:06 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«{"a c" => ["b", "d"]}␤»
21:06 frettled moritz_: yes, I keep forgetting that, stupidly.
21:06 pugs_svn r28149 | moritz++ | [irclog] enable default_escape in search template, jrtayloriv++
21:07 frettled I'm too used to writing Perl 5 non-strict one-liners.
21:14 * ruoso considering patching the spec for the three-layered number system... but maybe I should wait for TimToady's approval
21:15 colomon Only one .t file left to patch...
21:15 bioSlayer joined #perl6
21:16 bioSlayer well, hello everybody
21:16 moritz_ hi
21:16 bioSlayer Hey, actually, well, I got to here through the link you put in at PerlMonks.org
21:17 masak bioSlayer: o/
21:17 ruoso colomon, oh... are you doing it already?
21:18 colomon I'm working on the / switch with div.
21:18 bioSlayer I have this question, If Perl 6 is the next big thing happening in Perl, how do you perceive a transition experience from Perl 5 to Perl 6
21:18 moritz_ ruoso: colomon is patching the test suite and rakudo to conform to the current spec
21:18 bioSlayer I hope this can be in context with the ongoing conversation and pard me for the interruption
21:18 colomon Looks like I may have to dig into the Temporal code...
21:18 moritz_ bioSlayer: there are several options; one is embedding Perl 5 code in Perl 6 programs
21:19 moritz_ bioSlayer: jnthn is working on a prototype that enables that, see http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/tree/master
21:19 masak bioSlayer: you're not at all interrupting anything, by the way. we love that kind of question.
21:19 ruoso bioSlayer, additionally, there's a plan on modifying the p5 interpreter so it will be able to run Perl 6
21:20 masak colomon: oh hai. I have an ongoing fork where I work with the Temporal code. wanna collaborate?
21:20 colomon masak: It's just going through and changing / to div repeatedly...
21:20 bioSlayer and how about the syntax structure and the commands, do we really like have to forget about Perl 5 to learn this one, thing is I have just started learning Perl these two months
21:20 masak colomon: ah. never mind, then. :)
21:21 moritz_ bioSlayer: some things are different, but all in all it feels rather similar to Perl 5
21:21 masak bioSlayer: Perl 5 knowledge will keep being useful for many years to come.
21:21 masak bioSlayer: with that said, I know and use both Perl 5 and Perl 6 daily, and I greatly prefer the syntax and semantics of Perl 6.
21:23 bioSlayer ummm, so if I learnt the major things out there in Perl 5, I can still learn or rather "Transit" to Perl 6 on the fly?
21:24 frettled Yes, sortof.
21:24 frettled From my point of view, it helps to have some experience with other programming languages as well.
21:24 [particle] joined #perl6
21:25 bioSlayer this is good news then , I have nothing to worry about :) thanks everybody....
21:25 masak bioSlayer: have the appropriate amount of fun. :)
21:26 bioSlayer for sure I would, and you too :), I will help you all with Perl 9 probably, wait for me everyone :P
21:26 frettled bioSlayer: what masak said.  There is also an increasing amount of documentation about how to learn basic Perl 6 out there, plus quite a few blog entries if that floats your boat.
21:27 frettled bioSlayer: If you start with Perl 6 now, I'm sure you'll be helping out with Perl 6, not perl 9!
21:27 masak I'd recommend checking out Planet Perl 6.
21:27 bioSlayer <frettlet>thanks for the uplift
21:28 bioSlayer masak, I would check planet Perl 6
21:28 masak excellent.
21:28 moritz_ http://planetsix.perl.org/
21:28 bioSlayer @morits thanks :)
21:28 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
21:28 masak we're here if you have any questions or suggestions.
21:28 masak lambdabot: hush, humans talking.
21:28 Whiteknight joined #perl6
21:29 frettled bioSlayer: oh, as you can see, there's a stupid bot here thinking that sentences starting with an @ are meant for it :D
21:29 bioSlayer hahaha
21:30 bioSlayer I am sure you guys are having fun, I woul catch up and see what I can participate with...
21:30 ruoso hugme, hug bioSlayer
21:30 * hugme hugs bioSlayer
21:30 frettled bioSlayer++
21:30 colomon Dang it, I'm down to the very last failing test, and I have no idea what is up with it.
21:30 masak bioSlayer++
21:31 moritz_ colomon: what's the offending test?
21:31 bioSlayer :)
21:31 moritz_ @karma bioSlayer
21:31 lambdabot bioSlayer has a karma of 2
21:31 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "Last failing test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86327
21:32 colomon It appears to go into an infinite loop.
21:33 tak11 joined #perl6
21:33 moritz_ colomon: maybe turn your current rakudo + spectest changes into a big patch each, and put them in RT. It's much easier to look at that when knowing what you changed, and how
21:34 bioSlayer left #perl6
21:36 frettled rakudo: my %AB = {A => { a => 1, c => 3, b => 2 }, B => { y => 8, x => 7, z => 9 }}; %AB = %AB{A}.keys.sort Z %AB{B}.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
21:36 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub A␤»
21:37 frettled uh, fnord.
21:37 moritz_ %AB<A>
21:37 frettled rakudo: my %AB = {A => { a => 1, c => 3, b => 2 }, B => { y => 8, x => 7, z => 9 }}; %AB = %AB<A>.keys.sort Z %AB<B>.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
21:37 moritz_ instead of %AB{A}
21:37 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«{"a" => "x", "b" => "y", "c" => "z"}␤»
21:37 frettled moritz_: yep
21:37 masak frettled: and you don't really need those outermost curlies.
21:37 frettled rakudo: my %AB = A => { a => 1, c => 3, b => 2 }, B => { y => 8, x => 7, z => 9 }; %AB = %AB<A>.keys.sort Z %AB<B>.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
21:37 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«{"b" => "y", "c" => "z", "a" => "x"}␤»
21:37 frettled neatski.
21:37 frettled masak++
21:38 * masak bows
21:38 frettled Now for the better trick: let's say that I want to join the keys of %AB<A> with the values of %AB<B>, by sorted keys.
21:38 masak with happy salutations from the secret society of bracket removal.
21:38 frettled \o/
21:38 frettled I have trouble seeing how I can do that easily.  Any suggestions?
21:39 masak frettled: use a map on the right side of the 'Z'.
21:40 frettled masak: hms?
21:40 masak let me whip up an example.
21:40 kst joined #perl6
21:41 frettled thanks :D
21:41 frettled masak: as a measure of my gratitude, please listen to this youtube clip of a great classic afterwards.  :)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FSHS3DLElE
21:42 frettled (also entertaining for other Scandiwegian-comprehending listeners)
21:42 masak thanks, I will :)
21:42 masak oh, Fingal. :)
21:42 masak isn't that him sitting over there?
21:42 frettled isn't he dead?
21:43 masak no, he's moving about.
21:43 frettled :)
21:44 frettled BTW, I'm using this hash juggling in a new blog entry, because I just realized that I might be able to save quite a bit of work in a refactoring job somewhere.  :)
21:45 masak rakudo: my %AB = A => { a => 1, c => 3, b => 2 }, B => { y => 8, x => 7, z => 9 }; %AB = %AB<A>.keys.sort Z map { %AB<B>{$_} }, %AB<B>.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
21:45 p6eval rakudo e00587:  ( no output )
21:45 moritz_ rakudo: say 1
21:45 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:45 masak well, it workedforme.
21:45 frettled heh :)
21:45 moritz_ oh, at this time of the hour the server recompiles a rakudo
21:46 masak rakudo: my %AB = A => { a => 1, c => 3, b => 2 }, B => { y => 8, x => 7, z => 9 }; %AB = %AB<A>.keys.sort Z map { %AB<B>{$_} }, %AB<B>.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
21:46 frettled ah!
21:46 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«{"a" => 7, "b" => 8, "c" => 9}␤»
21:46 masak there you go.
21:46 frettled thanks!
21:46 moritz_ which means that the load is high, and chances for a timeout are even higher
21:46 masak :)
21:47 masak the intricacies of providing a self-refreshing evalbot.
21:47 frettled yep
21:47 moritz_ aye. *sigh*
21:47 moritz_ why doesn't somebody else take care of it? I'm not that good with sysadmin stuff
21:48 moritz_ http://github.com/moritz/hugme/ # source of hugme, for your inspection :-)
21:48 masak \o/
21:49 frettled moritz_: if someone else took care of it, then we couldn't complain to you :)
21:50 moritz_ frettled: aye; and I'd spent more time on the test suite and cool IRC bots like hugme
21:50 FCO joined #perl6
21:53 frettled moritz_: that's a pretty good point.
21:53 frettled I'm not volunteering right now because of personal issues, but perhaps someone else has a chance of helping out.
21:54 frettled (that is, I'm not _reliable_ now)
21:57 moritz_ if somebody wants to step up, let it be known that it's no magic; I'd make the current server available to that person, and give an introduction, answer questions etc.
22:01 masak http://use.perl.org/~kentnl/journal/39561 # more butterflies
22:01 masak I'm getting conflicting signals from that post.
22:02 masak the point seems to be "hey I tried to re-do the logo, but it still pretty much sucks".
22:02 moritz_ aye
22:02 frettled rakudo: my %A = { a => 1, b => 2 }; my %B = { z => 9, y => 8 }; %AB = %A.keys.sort Z map { %B<$_> }, %B.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
22:03 masak not the most convincing argument, I'd say.
22:03 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«Symbol '%AB' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/kzhQmY8CST:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3454)␤»
22:03 frettled argh!  sigh.
22:03 frettled rakudo: my %A = { a => 1, b => 2 }; my %B = { z => 9, y => 8 }; my %AB = %A.keys.sort Z map { %B<$_> }, %B.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
22:03 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«{"b" => undef, "a" => undef}␤»
22:03 masak frettled: not <$_>
22:03 masak frettled: {$_}
22:03 frettled rakudo: my %A = { a => 1, b => 2 }; my %B = { z => 9, y => 8 }; my %AB = %A.keys.sort Z map { %B{$_} }, %B.keys.sort; say %AB.perl;
22:03 p6eval rakudo e00587: OUTPUT«{"a" => 8, "b" => 9}␤»
22:03 frettled masak: yes, I forgot that <> only works with literals
22:04 masak yeah. that's what it does.
22:05 frettled masak: huh, what's the point of that blog post of kentnl's, anyway?  sigh.
22:05 * moritz_ hates it that JSON doesn't allow trailing commas after lists
22:06 masak kent\n: oh hai. I like the style of the logo. it looks mature.
22:06 frettled Now I just wonder if I've gotten my Perl 5.10.1 code right, haha.
22:07 masak kent\n: it's kinda the antithesis of Camelia.
22:07 kent\n masak: I had hoped at very least it might give somebody a few alternative ideas :)
22:07 masak I think it might.
22:10 pmichaud good evening, #perl6
22:11 kent\n masak: the vibe I was trying to do was "programmers and designers dont do well being the same person, but its plain to see the existing idea is a bit nasty and dated, even for a programmer, heres proof, now go hire somebody who knows what they're doing plz"
22:11 masak kent\n: I half-got that this was what you wanted to say.
22:12 kent\n the existing logo is fine... if your target audience is about 6.
22:12 kent\n years old.
22:12 masak yes.
22:12 masak your point being? :)
22:12 kent\n my point is made earlier :)
22:12 masak oh, ok.
22:13 PerlJam cultural wonkiness is our forte  ;)
22:13 kent\n PerlJam:  with that logic, we should have stuck with goatse for a logo =P
22:14 PerlJam kent\n: except that aesthetics matter and goatse is unappealing to almost everybody.
22:14 kent\n yes. quite.
22:15 kent\n cultural wonkiness is probably fine if you only want to attract existing perl programmers, but like churches, you can't cater explicitly to the inhouse, you have to be prepared to meet the outside world or you'll crust up and die
22:15 frettled kent\n: I think you may be placing a bit too much importance in a logo.
22:15 kent\n possibly.
22:16 kent\n but I'd rather not be giving out low-hanging lambast fruit
22:16 PerlJam kent\n: If it 's fine for 6 year olds, it's fine for you too  :)
22:16 frettled kent\n: PHP's huge userbase doesn't seem to be overly bothered by their completely lackluster logo :)
22:17 PerlJam frettled: PHP has a logo?
22:17 frettled exactly :)
22:17 kent\n that was my next question.
22:17 frettled http://static.php.net/www.php.net/images/php.gif
22:17 frettled and what about Python, or Ruby?
22:17 kent\n yeah, but now imagine if they'd slapped barney the purple dinosaur on their logo
22:18 kent\n it would be amusingly apt
22:18 frettled That might get them some attention.  ;)
22:18 kent\n python: snakes
22:18 kent\n ruby: rubies
22:18 frettled Just one ruby, currently.
22:19 frettled And Python's use of stylized snakes looks like something a 7-year old may have come up with while bored in class.  Yet it doesn't seem important.
22:19 kent\n I'm more familiar with the snake on the front of the books than on their logos
22:20 frettled as we're all probably more familiar with the Camel on the Camel Book than … uh, I don't even _know_.
22:20 KatrinaTheLamia joined #perl6
22:20 moritz_ the onion?
22:20 PerlJam garlic may be more apt in some cases :)
22:20 frettled Isn't that the Perl Foundation's logo?
22:20 kent\n the onion seems to be only known heavily by in-house
22:21 kent\n although, tis the only offical one we can use thats not copyright to Oriely
22:21 frettled perl.org confusingly uses both.
22:21 sjohnson perl => pearls :)
22:21 PerlJam sjohnson: that's the wrong kind of confusion there.
22:22 kent\n even with pearls, big balls of white opaqueness are really hard to make a decent logo out of with only ~6 colours to play with
22:22 pmichaud Perl Foundation == Onion.  Perl 5 == Camel (trademarked by O'Reilly)
22:23 kst joined #perl6
22:23 * kent\n decides Perl's logo should be a fecking great block of cheese
22:24 kent\n why? no reason.
22:24 pmichaud I think masak++ has the cheese logo rights :)
22:24 Juerd Is Camelia trademarked?
22:24 * PerlJam carves the cheese into something resembling a troll just for kentn :)
22:24 frettled Juerd: yes.
22:24 Juerd It has a small "TM". That's ugly :(
22:24 pmichaud Juerd: trademarked, yes, not registered yet (afaik)
22:25 Juerd I hope it will be like tux, in the sense that you can use it for whatever purpose without having to ask anyone.
22:25 pmichaud Juerd: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/camelia.txt
22:25 masak I hereby cede all cheese logo rights. :)
22:25 kent\n alternatively, a chilli-bean ( if it is not already used, but I bet it is ) would be a good compliment to an onion
22:25 pmichaud The Camelia image is a trademark of Larry Wall, and permission is
22:25 pmichaud granted for non-exclusive use to label anything related to Perl 6,
22:25 pmichaud provided the image is labeled as a trademark when used as a main logo
22:25 pmichaud on a page.
22:26 Juerd pmichaud: That's good enough, as everything in existence is related to Perl 6 somehow :D
22:26 PerlJam kent\n: you should read that page pmichaud just mentioned too
22:26 kent\n we could just revamp the onion logo
22:26 kent\n I've on occasion glossed over it
22:26 Juerd kent\n: Have you seen Camelia? She's *beautiful*
22:27 kent\n I'm sure somebody could retain the beauty, and approach a better degree of reality
22:27 PerlJam "reality"?
22:27 Juerd Reality!
22:27 Juerd Hah! :)
22:27 Juerd Ever since junctions I haven't cared... ;)
22:28 kent\n If you could get the proper metalic sheen of butterfly wings, that'd be ossum
22:28 PerlJam kent\n: have you seen padre's splash screen?
22:28 * kent\n thinks he has
22:28 pmichaud I think TimToady++ wants Camelia to be about as real as Tux is.
22:28 Juerd "It is not necessary to so label icons"... Yay!
22:29 Juerd I have the onion logo *illegally* on juerd.nl, because it doesn't have that exclusion to the requirement.
22:29 Juerd (Haven't asked permission either, though.)
22:29 * kent\n would like to see an onion, complete with glossy brown skin tones and green shoot emerging
22:30 PerlJam kent\n: I'm sure you could find one like that at your local market  ;)
22:30 kent\n but not a photo, sort of cgi-ish
22:30 Juerd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelia  # hmmm
22:31 Juerd Not bad either in terms of prettiness.
22:32 frettled A disambiguation page is clearly needed.
22:32 PerlJam camelia is also some type of flower IIRC
22:32 frettled «Camellia»
22:33 PerlJam ah, two els
22:33 PerlJam However ... http://camelia.sourceforge.net/
22:34 PerlJam We just have to win the meme war.  Given the controversy already, we're sure to do so  ;)
22:34 frettled hee-hee
22:34 frettled Okay, let's fix the Wikipedia article first, and then move the current Camelia article to a new place, and … :D
22:35 kent\n http://www.hallagulla.com/urd​u/photo/data/500/10_Onion.jpg # is nice, but whiter and slightly more toony would be awesome
22:35 frettled …or maybe I should just go get my beauty sleep, I have to pick up my car in 6.5-ish hours.  Bleh.  :(
22:35 Juerd kent\n: There's no use in replacing the onion logo. It's already a well known and recognised logo around the world.
22:35 Juerd (in the community)
22:35 frettled g'night!
22:36 moritz_ 'night
22:36 PerlJam good night frettled
22:36 Juerd Good night
22:36 masak 'night, frettled
22:36 pmichaud A bit of historical perspective on Tux (and that might be relevant to Camelia):  http://gist.github.com/178756
22:36 kent\n yeah.  I just figgured, perl6 is inspired by some of the old with a lot of the new, so I can't see why an revamps for it could be an option. but meh.
22:37 TimToady cultural wonkiness is one of the invariants
22:37 TimToady that makes Perl 6 the same as Perl 5
22:38 TimToady and the fact is, we *are* aiming to impress 6-year-olds
22:39 TimToady and these days, toons are big business :)
22:40 PerlJam Pokemon Camelia should go over well.
22:40 TimToady and so far, I haven't seen anyone jolted by Camelia that couldn't use a little jolting
22:40 PerlJam Anime Camelia for the older crowd
22:41 kent\n man, I can see a rule 34 coming a mile off :(
22:42 TimToady to the pure, all things are pure :)
22:43 kent\n I can smell circular logic the same way
22:43 TimToady it's all circular at some level or other
22:44 masak or axiomatic.
22:45 PerlJam masak++
22:45 TimToady axioms circle themselves
22:45 masak :)
22:45 masak well, if you're using _that_ definition of circular, then sure...
22:46 TimToady almost all cultural fights involve someone assuming something is axiomatic that someone else wants to take a circularity saw to
22:46 TimToady I personally want to take a circularity saw to corporate logo culture
22:47 * kent\n asserts the world really does revolve around himself, and nobody can prove concretely the contrary
22:48 TimToady 'coure not, that's what time is for
22:48 TimToady *course
22:49 moritz_ now if you find a good, non-circular explanation of what time is... the Nobel Price might be yours!
22:49 TimToady well, maybe next time around
22:49 kent\n easy.
22:49 kent\n time isn't.
22:51 pmichaud I'd come up with a good non-circulation explanation of time but it's likely to take me too long to do it.
22:51 TimToady one could probably figure out a sequence of logic from that premise that indicates the world doesn't revolve around you
22:51 pmichaud *non-circular
22:52 kent\n there is no time, I'm just imagining it.
22:52 TimToady since, obviously, revolution cannot occur without time :)
22:52 kent\n not true.
22:52 kent\n I could just be imagining things are revolving
22:52 kent\n they might not exist at all.
22:52 masak that's not a very interesting hypothesis, that's all.
22:53 kent\n say what you will, you've just been unthunk
22:53 kent\n this line of thought is boring
22:53 kent\n NEXT
22:54 sevvie joined #perl6
22:54 masak I've discovered what I think is a very strange bug having to do with Str methods. I think I'm too tired to track it down, however.
22:54 pmichaud it's very likely
22:54 TimToady what color is it?
22:54 pmichaud we're still getting many of the fundamentals in place
22:54 masak my blog post is blocking on it, so it'll have to wait 'til tomorrow.
22:55 masak I can already report that it's a lot of fun to be writing literate Perl 6.
22:55 TimToady I think I've figured out the refactor of 'is context'
22:55 masak if you want, I can gist you a preview of the post.
22:55 pmichaud oh, good timing :)
22:55 pmichaud masak: if you gist me a preview, I might be able to work on the bug a bit tonight
22:55 masak pmichaud: if you want. :) I can say it's quite involved.
22:56 * pmichaud eagerly awaits 'is context' improvements, since that's his next major area of focus
22:56 TimToady in a nutshell, any var declared as $*foo is contextual
22:56 pmichaud so,   my $*foo = 5;   # contextual
22:56 TimToady so my $*answer = 42
22:56 pmichaud I like it
22:56 TimToady yes
22:56 pmichaud I like it _very much_
22:56 TimToady then there's the readonly question
22:56 pmichaud yes, I was about to ask that :)
22:56 TimToady I think there's a new declarator
22:57 TimToady for which I've looked at what seems like several hundred names
22:57 TimToady but for now, call it 'def'
22:57 pmichaud so, what was the several hundred plus one'th name?
22:57 pmichaud 'def'
22:57 pmichaud hmmm.
22:57 TimToady which is a declaration of a readonly of any sort
22:57 TimToady def $x = 42;  $x = 43; # boom
22:57 pmichaud reminds me a bit too much of python
22:57 TimToady too bad :)
22:58 pmichaud you decided against 'constant'?
22:58 TimToady constant evaluates = at compile tim
22:58 TimToady *time
22:58 pmichaud ah.
22:58 TimToady this evaluates at run time
22:58 masak pmichaud: http://gist.github.com/178765
22:58 TimToady so combining, you get def $*answer = 42
22:58 pmichaud hmmm
22:58 masak pmichaud: line 223 causes the Str method to return nothing.
22:58 TimToady and then any subroutine gets $*answer as readonly 42
22:59 Juerd Doesn't "def" want to be the opposite of "undef"?
22:59 TimToady but other threads might be running with different answers
22:59 Juerd Can you undef a def?
22:59 Juerd Can you def something to be undef?
22:59 pmichaud readonly-ness still feels like a trait to me, but that's probably because I still think of "is rw" and "is copy" and "is ref" having similar effects on variables
23:00 pmichaud truly, I'd almost expect read-only to be the default behavior of :=
23:00 pmichaud my $x := 42;  $x = 43;  # boom
23:00 TimToady it represents the same semantics that parameters get by default
23:00 TimToady my $x := 42; $x := 43; # non-boom
23:00 TimToady def $x := 42; $x := 43; # boom
23:00 masak TimToady: then maybe call it 'bind'?
23:01 TimToady that was one of many words I considered
23:01 kst joined #perl6
23:01 * masak is not surprised
23:01 TimToady it might or might not even be the best one
23:01 pmichaud I agree with Juerd that def <-> undef is a bit disconcerting
23:01 pmichaud I don't have any better suggestions at the moment
23:01 pmichaud actually 'readonly' comes to mind :)
23:01 TimToady too ong
23:01 TimToady *long
23:02 pmichaud I suspect it's uncommon enough that length isn't an issue, though.
23:02 Juerd ensure, force, keep, uphold
23:02 pmichaud I agree it's lengthy
23:02 pmichaud sometimes clarity trumps brevity, I think.
23:02 TimToady yes, the thesaurus has many words in those categories
23:02 Juerd uphold $foo = 42;
23:02 TimToady I would really like both
23:02 pmichaud agreed, me too.
23:03 masak 'night, y'all.
23:03 TimToady since this is likely to replace 'my' in single assignment contexts
23:03 Juerd TimToady: That's why I'm providing a filtered view :)
23:03 pmichaud I truly doubt I'll come up with any words that aren't in the hundreds you've considered, but I'll see if any spring to mind
23:03 Juerd TimToady: The whole thesaurus would flood the channel
23:03 TimToady I rather liked 'posit', but even that is a bit long
23:04 pmichaud 'fix' or 'fixed'
23:04 TimToady <-> fixed point
23:04 Juerd pmichaud: Brilliant :)
23:04 pmichaud 'fix' <-> fixed point seems less jarring to me than def <-> undef
23:05 TimToady so $x = 42;  # :-)
23:05 Juerd pmichaud: I'd *love* to say "fix $this for $me;" Is assignment mandatory? :)
23:05 pmichaud Juerd: I suspect not :)
23:05 TimToady there are also lots of possible variants that change the = instead of the declarator
23:05 pmichaud ooooh
23:05 pmichaud that would be useful to
23:06 pmichaud and there's always 'but'
23:06 pmichaud my $x = 42 but readonly
23:06 pmichaud (too long, yes, I know)
23:06 Juerd Can a 'but' avoid future ':='?
23:06 TimToady one could even force 'my $x == 42;' to work
23:06 pmichaud I like changing the '=' because one could have something that is rw for a while and *then* becomes readonly afterwards
23:07 TimToady then == is out :)
23:07 TimToady so what operator means 'posit'?
23:07 TimToady my $x <- 42
23:08 Juerd What does the word posit mean?
23:08 TimToady my $x ≣ 42;
23:09 TimToady it means 'suppose for now'
23:09 pmichaud isn't that "let"  ?
23:09 TimToady yes, but we've used that
23:09 TimToady unless we kill both temp and let
23:09 pmichaud we still have "let"?
23:09 pmichaud ah.
23:09 * Juerd suggests my $x <-> 42 and finds a place to hide
23:09 pmichaud we already have <->  as a lambda :)
23:09 pmichaud it does mean "rw", however :)
23:09 TimToady that's why Juerd is hiding
23:09 pmichaud and -> means "ro"
23:09 Juerd I'm hiding for multiple reasons
23:10 TimToady so <- should ro the $x :)
23:10 Juerd I remember that <- used to be a problem, but that's fixed by the whitespace rules now.
23:11 pmichaud <:=
23:11 TimToady and, of course, there's all sorts of arrows in unicode
23:11 Juerd Still, though, it reads as "write only" because of the way arrows are used with for.
23:12 TimToady of course, CS folks who use arrow to mean assignment will be confused :)
23:12 Juerd Won't CS folks be confused, anyway, by Perl 6?
23:13 pmichaud right along with the math folks :)
23:13 Juerd I know I am :D
23:13 Juerd pmichaud: They have been confused by every programming language so far :)
23:13 TimToady if we made declarations at the end of feed operators readonly, then my $x <== 42 would work
23:14 pmichaud Yes, but I still somewhat like the notion of being able to mark a container as "fixed" at some point other than its declaration.
23:14 Juerd Visually, "is readonly" is lighter than "<==". It's also easier to type...
23:14 pmichaud I don't know why I like that notion, I just do.
23:14 colomon moritz_, pmichaud, masak: RT #68898 is the complete Int / Int swap with div patch, both rakudo and spectest bits.  It's mostly there, and hopefully the e-mail and commit note successfully explain its flaws.
23:14 Juerd pmichaud: That would be wonderful for when you're paranoid about AaaD
23:14 pmichaud Juerd: it also reminds me of the way we do things in other contexts (more)
23:15 TimToady $x <- 42;  assign and set readonly
23:15 pmichaud For example, often a process will start out with superuser privileges, and then it drops those privileges after doing some bit of setup.  This is the same sort of thing for individual containers
23:15 Juerd <- has the same problem that def has. It looks like the opposite of something that's already there but has very little to do with it.
23:16 TimToady it means bind to this with readonly semantics in both cases
23:16 rhr joined #perl6
23:16 TimToady and the ends of <-> just cancel :)
23:16 pmichaud I don't know that "set readonly" has to be an operator; I'd be fine with it being de-huffmanized and there being a short declarator form.
23:16 Juerd pmichaud: I imagine such a fix operater used on configuration. my %foo = eval $config-file's-contents; fix %foo;
23:16 pmichaud Juerd: exactly.
23:17 pmichaud but in that sense it almost sounds like 'final'
23:17 pmichaud (which might be an argument against it)
23:18 Juerd Well, at least "fix" has the antonym "break" ;)
23:18 TimToady why wouldn't you just say fix %foo = eval ...
23:18 Juerd TimToady: Because you want to do something in between too.
23:18 TimToady or my %foo <-- eval...
23:18 TimToady that's what do blocks are for :)
23:18 pmichaud :)
23:18 Juerd TimToady: my %foo = eval ...; %foo.values >>~~ s/.../.../; fix %foo;
23:18 TimToady FP is your friend (sometimes)
23:18 pmichaud and yes, one could always do the building in another variable, then assign to the "fixed" one.
23:19 Juerd TimToady: I can't really answer any "why would you want that" question, though, because I already feel that way about making variables immutable anyway.
23:19 TimToady I have a soft spot in my heart for imperative programming, but I'd rather encourage FP where not inconvenient
23:20 pmichaud The only counter-case I can come up with is that I might want to have a sub or trait that "fixes" one of its parameter arguments.
23:20 pmichaud but it's a weak case.
23:20 TimToady it really is pretty much identical to the semantics we want parameters to default to
23:20 donaldh joined #perl6
23:20 TimToady I suppose we could steal := for this, at some expense
23:21 Juerd I suspect that that expense would not be that large in practice.
23:22 TimToady it would be more of a unification with sig binding
23:22 Juerd my $foo := ...; $foo := ...; feels weird anyway.
23:23 TimToady rebinding would still be possble with an appropriate declarator
23:23 TimToady this is all very Hmm-y
23:23 Juerd TimToady: :dwis
23:23 pmichaud that doesn't feel so weird to me -- it just means I'm re-binding an existing symbol
23:23 pmichaud certainly I'd want   &foo := ...   to work
23:23 Juerd Convincing example.
23:24 TimToady basically, we want a light container bind, and a heavier container/contents bind and make readonly
23:24 * Juerd forgot what ::= meant. Which synopsis is that?
23:24 pmichaud ::= is a compile-time bind
23:25 TimToady could also be stolen
23:25 pmichaud yes.
23:25 KatrinaTheLamia Juerd: ::= is compiler time bind
23:25 Juerd No synopsis where I can read the details? :)
23:25 pmichaud Synopsis 2, I think.
23:25 pmichaud maybe 3.
23:25 Juerd (Thanks for the swift answers though)
23:25 KatrinaTheLamia I dunno, I don't mind doing := over and over again... would be good, actually.. make it so there are less syntax errors of "=" in boolean statements.
23:25 * Juerd used to know all the synopsis numbers. Now there are 42 times as many, and I forgot even the ones I knew.
23:26 wayland76 S03 operators
23:26 pmichaud wayland76 ftw
23:26 wayland76 And S11 modules
23:26 wayland76 ..according to fgrep -c '::=' * | grep -v ':0'
23:27 pmichaud anyway, just going through this discussion I naturally tend to use "fix" as the verb (much more so than I'd want to use "def")
23:27 Juerd Under what circumstances would one prefer compile time binding?
23:27 pmichaud anyway, I'm being called to dinner
23:27 Juerd Bon apetit
23:27 TimToady when one gets tired of writing BEGIN { ... := ... }  :)
23:27 Juerd s/p/pp/
23:28 pmichaud TimToady: Big +2 on the my $*foo  declarations -- it's perfect.
23:28 TimToady my STD is already written that way, and works :)
23:28 TimToady thinking hard about stealing ::= to mean bind and lock
23:28 pmichaud I bet I can add trivially add it to Rakudo as well.
23:28 pmichaud I'd be find with ::= meaning "bind and lock"
23:28 pmichaud *fine
23:28 pmichaud I haven't had a lot of use for :=
23:28 pmichaud er, ::=
23:29 pmichaud (I've had a *lot* of use for :=)
23:29 pmichaud (not to mention that it makes excellent smileys when used at the end of a parenthetical thought :=)
23:29 pmichaud okay, gone for now
23:29 TimToady chow
23:31 jrtayloriv joined #perl6
23:32 Juerd In Rakudo's source, I've acked for ::=, and it appears that it isn't actually used, whereas := is.
23:32 Juerd But maybe this just means that ::= isn't implemented yet. Haven't checked the list. Don't even know if there is one.
23:33 nbrown joined #perl6
23:42 pugs_svn r28150 | lwall++ | [S03] steal ::= for readonly binding ala sigs
23:45 justatheory joined #perl6
23:47 TimToady I think we still have the context trait, but $*foo variables automatically get it set, along with $_, $/, and $!
23:48 Juerd What is "virtually identical" in practice?
23:50 wayland76 "quite different"? :)
23:58 pyrimidine joined #perl6
23:58 pyrimidine left #perl6

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