Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-09-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:17 pugs_svn r28188 | lwall++ | [S04] clarify semantics of break for masak++
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03:24 carlin rakudo: IO.lines
03:24 p6eval rakudo eefd95: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method()␤in method IO::eof (src/gen_setting.pm:1176)␤called from method IO::lines (src/gen_setting.pm:1193)␤called from Main (/tmp/eUjZjPyItD:2)␤»
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04:08 dalek rakudo: 2276af9 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
04:08 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 435 files, 13401 pass, 1 fail
04:08 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
04:08 dalek rakudo: S32-temporal/Temporal.t 7 - gmtime defaults to current time
04:08 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​276af9bc0e5c6df695608ed12db9e206eaca9aa
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04:46 jrtayloriv I'm experiencing the following failures during 'make spectest' on x86_64 Linux: http://pastebin.com/d759611fb
04:47 jrtayloriv (with latest git rakudo sources)
04:49 jrtayloriv ahhh ... when I do './perl6 t/spec/S12-attributes/class.rakudo', I get this: src/call/pcc.c:608: failed assertion 'PObj_is_PMC_TEST(sig_pmc)'
04:50 jrtayloriv oops -- looks like that was already in the backtraces I pastebin'd ... :)
05:10 pmichaud S12-attributes/class.rakudo is known, assuming that it reports 0 failures
05:10 * pmichaud looks at the pastebin
05:11 pmichaud yes, those are known failures
05:11 pugs_svn r28189 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Fudge/regress a spectest (mis)using contextuals.
05:26 jrtayloriv pmichaud, ok thanks
05:46 dalek rakudo: 7734f9b | pmichaud++ |  (3 files):
05:46 dalek rakudo: Enable contextual variable definitions and dynamic lookups.
05:46 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​734f9b38ebb82e50637880c07eb943a35fe7a3b
05:49 pugs_svn r28190 | mberends++ | [Temporal.t] improve stability of test 7, replace some floor() with div
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07:08 moritz_ OH HAI, I CAN HAZ KONTETKSHUAL VARS IN RADAUKU?
07:16 pugs_svn r28191 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Add some tests for contextual variables.
07:20 pmichaud rakudo:  sub foo() { say $*VAR; };   { my $*VAR = 'yes'; foo(); }
07:21 p6eval rakudo 7734f9: OUTPUT«yes␤»
07:21 dalek rakudo: 86a9268 | pmichaud++ | src/classes/Failure.pir:
07:21 dalek rakudo: Update Failure objects to output to contextual $*ERR.
07:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​6a9268c8db1a43f9c08e4b11ef753ff5b5de0e7
07:21 dalek rakudo: a746af0 | pmichaud++ | Test.pm:
07:21 dalek rakudo: Adjust Test.pir $WARNINGS flag.
07:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a​746af0bebe5f98f8ad7de5dc1c31eff8c77fdff
07:21 dalek rakudo: 8566a62 | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/globals.pir:
07:21 dalek rakudo: Add ability for contextuals to also search  %*ENV.
07:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​566a62a491b72e6fef9e23918ae4ce5e3c7db77
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07:26 pmichaud rakudo:  say $*TERM;
07:26 p6eval rakudo 7734f9:  ( no output )
07:26 pmichaud rakudo:  say $*PATH;
07:26 p6eval rakudo 7734f9:  ( no output )
07:26 pmichaud (not updated yet)
07:26 moritz_ not yet updated
07:27 moritz_ updating now
07:27 pmichaud oh well, I'll catch it in the morning and write my blog post then
07:27 pmichaud too tired now to write coherently :)
07:27 moritz_ sleep well
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07:44 moritz_ rakudo: say $*TERM
07:44 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«screen␤»
07:44 moritz_ rakudo: say $*SHELL
07:44 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«/bin/bash␤»
07:45 mikehh rakudo (7734f9b) builds on parrot r40989 - make test / make spectest (up to r28191) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc)
07:46 mikehh re-testing with latest stuff
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07:48 mikehh rakudo (8566a62) builds on parrot r40989 - make test / make spectest (up to r28191) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc)
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08:26 jnthn oh hai oh
08:27 jnthn I made it to Tokyo in one piece. :-)
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08:31 mikehh jnthn: I suppose congratulations are in order no CATastrophy :-}
08:34 mberends jnthn: made it to the intertubes in Tokyo, even better :-)
08:35 jnthn The hotel have an interesting approach to wifi in room.
08:36 jnthn Seems they have a cable style thing throughout the building, so they supply anyone who wants net in the room with a cable modem or some such. :-/
08:36 jnthn Anyway, after I figured out where on earth to plug the thing, it seems to work pretty nicely. :-)
08:40 jnthn I'm too jet-lagged to do anything useful with the intertubes though.
08:40 jnthn Unless lolcats are useful... ;-)
09:11 pmichaud jnthn: hurray for safe arrival :)
09:13 jnthn pmichaud: hurray for contextuals too :)
09:15 * jnthn ponders that this is a curious time for pm to be awake.
09:17 pmichaud it is... can't sleep for some reason
09:17 pmichaud so I decided to hack another feature in :)
09:17 jnthn .oO( protoregexes )
09:17 jnthn ;-)
09:17 pmichaud a working %*ENV
09:17 jnthn ooh
09:18 jnthn shiny
09:18 jnthn Plus will make some folks hapy.
09:18 jnthn *happy
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09:19 JimmyZ rakudo: '小白'.say;
09:19 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«小白␤»
09:20 JimmyZ Malformed UTF-8 string? Does it need ICU?
09:20 pmichaud usually it gives "ICU not found" exception if it needs ICU
09:22 JimmyZ I ran '小白'.say; but it is  output 'Malformed UTF-8 string'
09:23 JimmyZ It's on windows.
09:23 pmichaud are you doing this from a file, command line, or the interactive prompt ?
09:23 JimmyZ interactive prompt
09:23 pmichaud ah, that's the problem.
09:23 pmichaud the interactive prompt doesn't always understand utf-8
09:23 pmichaud I thought I fixed that already, but apparently not
09:23 pmichaud try it from a file and see if it works
09:24 JimmyZ command line is the same.
09:24 pmichaud right
09:24 pmichaud has to be from a file
09:26 JimmyZ if it is a ansi file, it is the same too. and if it is saved as utf8, it outputs Syntax error at line 1, near "\ufeff'\u5c0f\u767d'.say;" in Main (src\gen_setting.pm:3470)
09:27 pmichaud it doesn't know what to do with the bom
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09:29 JimmyZ It can't work.
09:29 jnthn Well that's a bommer.
09:30 pmichaud I'm pretty sure people have been able to make it work under windows.  Anyway, worth filing a ticket.
09:30 pmichaud I wonder if we should get rakudo to skip an optional bom at the beginning
09:30 pmichaud .oO( "Someone set up us the bom" )
09:31 JimmyZ pmichaud: parrot has the same problem too. I removed some code from parrot, so that I can compile it.
09:31 pmichaud JimmyZ: yes, that's likely.
09:31 pmichaud worth filing two tickets then :)
09:31 jnthn pmichaud: I had to rip the bom out a couple of times an editor decided to stick it in for me.
09:32 JimmyZ but, it is works well on irc.
09:33 JimmyZ pmichaud: see TT #888
09:33 Patterner ./perl6 -e "'小白'.say"  # works fine on my linux system
09:33 sharada perl6: sub { "hello" # test }.()
09:34 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3470)␤»
09:34 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting operator or "}"␤    at /tmp/dTw330rqKz line 2, column 1␤»
09:34 p6eval ..elf 28191: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/z97kcbaNcB␤panic at line 1 column 25 (pos 25): Missing right brace␤WHERE: sub { "hello" # test }.()␤WHERE:                         /\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:255:in `_block_rest'␤  STD_red/std.rb:242:in `block in block'␤
09:34 p6eval ..STD…
09:34 JimmyZ perl6: sub { "hello" #`(test) }.()
09:34 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    expecting operator or "}"␤    at /tmp/RRYxSFjDYY line 2, column 1␤»
09:34 p6eval ..rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near ".()"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3470)␤»
09:34 p6eval ..elf 28191: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/ao0rJwy1GQ␤panic at line 1 column 27 (pos 27): Missing right brace␤WHERE: sub { "hello" #`(test) }.()␤WHERE:                           /\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:255:in `_block_rest'␤  STD_red/std.rb:242:in `block in
09:34 p6eval ..block'␤ …
09:35 JimmyZ Patterner: Yes, also here.
09:38 JimmyZ rakudo: ({ "hello" #`(test) })()
09:38 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'␤in Main (/tmp/watm6zLKqp:2)␤»
09:39 JimmyZ rakudo: ( * * * )(5);
09:39 p6eval rakudo 8566a6:  ( no output )
09:39 JimmyZ rakudo: ( * * * )(5).say;
09:39 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«25␤»
09:39 JimmyZ rakudo: ({$_ * $_})(5).say;
09:39 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Float'␤in Main (/tmp/CUW8p4FISH:2)␤»
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09:50 masak hello, #perl6, you fantastic channel you.
09:51 sharada JimmyZ woah!!
09:51 sharada hi masak
09:51 sharada that what how does it work
09:51 sharada * is $_ in that context?
09:52 pmichaud http://news.perlfoundation.org/2009/0​9/hague_grant_application_rakudo.html  # jnthn++'s latest Hague Grant application, if anyone wishes to comment
09:53 masak sharada: yes. and it creates a closure around the expression, as well, so that the resulting object can be invoked.
09:53 masak wohoo, a jnthn grant application! \o/
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09:57 masak I have a feeling I'll get a lot of Perl 6 work done today.
09:57 masak question is, what should I focus on?
10:01 * jnthn is going to focus on sleep in a moment
10:02 jnthn And yes, comments on the rant app most welcome.
10:02 jnthn erm,
10:02 jnthn grant
10:02 masak :)
10:02 masak jnthn: how's Asia?
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10:03 jnthn masak: It's cool to be here, and I enjoyed hanging about in a busy market and a nice park for a while this afternoon (morning was mostly finding the hotel etc)
10:04 jnthn Now though just too tired tot hink...only holding out on sleep so I can do it and not too bad a time and make the jetlag even worse.
10:04 masak sounds reasonable.
10:04 jnthn (well, morning was also immigration, and customs, and the train ride into the center, etc...)
10:05 cognominal jnthn, good sleep, and enjoy japan
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10:05 jnthn Yeah, but I'm really struggling to stay awake. I can't do anything usefl.
10:05 jnthn ah well, I'll try and make it 30 mins more or so, then I'll probably let myself sleep, and hope I don't wake up at too insane a time.
10:06 cognominal what time is it, there?
10:08 drbean joined #perl6
10:08 jnthn 7:08 pm
10:10 pmichaud wow, +15h from here
10:10 pmichaud wait, does this mean..... jnthn++ is now from the future too?!?
10:10 masak it does indeed.
10:14 masak by the way, "someone set up us the BOM" should be someone's blog post title.
10:17 dalek rakudo: e8b631c | mberends++ | src/builtins/globals.pir:
10:17 dalek rakudo: [builtins/globals.pir] preload $HOME/.perl6lib and languages/perl6/lib in @*INC
10:17 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​8b631cd86ffeaeae8cf930c72ffd4a449e5d521
10:17 masak whoa! :)
10:18 mberends masak: proto is driving Rakudo development ;)
10:18 masak scary :)
10:19 moritz_ that's the way it should be - the ecosystem evolves, and Rakudo adapts as needed
10:19 pmichaud I think it was druid before that.  And November before that.
10:20 pmichaud it's a bit breathtaking to see what has happened the year since November's announcement :)
10:20 masak indeed.
10:24 jnthn Aye, we've come quite a way.
10:24 jnthn By December it'll be about 2 years since I first started hacking on Rakudo. :-)
10:25 jnthn And Rakudo two years ago had a very different feature set. :-)
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10:26 cognominal what is druid? it is missing from perl6.org
10:26 drbean joined #perl6
10:27 pmichaud github.com/masak/druid
10:28 masak cognominal: it's a game I wrote nearly a year ago. it stands apart from other connection games in that it shoots up into the third dimension.
10:29 dalek rakudo: 825074a | pmichaud++ | src/ (4 files):
10:29 dalek rakudo: Revise %*ENV processing to resolve RT #57400.
10:29 dalek rakudo: Fix a bug in initialization of contextual variables.
10:29 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​25074a837fb646e6a6dda8366f6983506a20c25
10:29 dalek rakudo: 6e2104a | pmichaud++ | :
10:29 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
10:29 masak cognominal: for quite some time now, it has been waiting to simultaneously burst out into SVG-hood and Web-hood.
10:29 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​e2104a9ee97bc95941b206c63d5edb28cf4f3f3
10:29 pmichaud rakudo:  say %*ENV.perl;  # this should work when updated
10:29 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«{"PERL6LIB" => "", "TERM" => "", "SHELL" => "", "USER" => "", "LD_LIBRARY_PATH" => "", "LS_COLORS" => "", "PATH" => "", "MAIL" => "", "PWD" => "", "EDITOR" => "", "LANG" => "", "HISTCONTROL" => "", "HOME" => "", "SHLVL" => "", "LOGNAME" => "", "LESSOPEN" => "", "LESSCLOSE" =>
10:29 p6eval .."", "…
10:30 pmichaud rakudo:  %*ENV<XYZ> = 'hello';   run('say $XYZ');   # so should this
10:30 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (lib/Safe.pm:25)␤»
10:30 cognominal masak, I like all these block grames, pentominoes, tangrams, sliding blocks and the like
10:31 masak cognominal: this is at least slightly related.
10:31 pmichaud I wonder if we could get 'safe mode' to not be enabled for nicks that are deemed to be 'safe' already :-)
10:31 cognominal masak, i think I know a two dimensional version of druid
10:31 masak cognominal: what's it called?
10:32 drbean joined #perl6
10:32 cognominal I forgot
10:32 masak heh.
10:33 pmichaud > %*ENV<XYZ> = 'hello';   run('echo $XYZ');
10:33 pmichaud hello
10:33 lambdabot <no location info>: parse error on input `%*'
10:33 masak the ones I know about are Hex, Gonnect, Quax, Y, Havannah and a few other minor ones.
10:35 mberends pmichaud++ # %*ENV eliminates another ugly hack in Proto
10:35 cognominal That's a impressive game list : http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/
10:36 masak aye, gamerz.net is one of those quietly astonishing phenomena.
10:36 cognominal masak, that was probably hex
10:36 masak Hex! \o/
10:36 masak I won't say I'm any good at it, but I've been playing it for seven years now.
10:36 masak it's a very deep and interesting game.
10:36 colomon \
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10:39 pugs_svn r28192 | pmichaud++ | [t/spec]:  Unfudge some %*ENV and contextual related tests for Rakudo.
10:39 cognominal masak, right now, I am addicted to  many combinatory games on my iPhone: Kitten escape,  theseus, subway, unblock me, tanzen, zentomino to name a few
10:39 masak pmichaud++ # fixing RT #57400, a long-standing irritation
10:40 masak the latter two sound familiar, the others don't...
10:40 pmichaud if someone can verify that the issues in that ticket are indeed fixed (and properly tested), I'd be gratified to see that ticket close :)
10:40 pmichaud okay, I'm going to see if I can get a couple of hours sleep before the kids awake
10:40 masak if I were to enter the business as an iPhone app developer, I'd probably be writing connection games.
10:40 pmichaud rakudo:  say %*ENV.perl;  # this should work when updated
10:40 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«{"PERL6LIB" => "", "TERM" => "", "SHELL" => "", "USER" => "", "LD_LIBRARY_PATH" => "", "LS_COLORS" => "", "PATH" => "", "MAIL" => "", "PWD" => "", "EDITOR" => "", "LANG" => "", "HISTCONTROL" => "", "HOME" => "", "SHLVL" => "", "LOGNAME" => "", "LESSOPEN" => "", "LESSCLOSE" =>
10:40 p6eval .."", "…
10:40 cognominal masak:  http://www.logicmazes.com/theseus.html
10:40 pmichaud hmmm, not yet
10:41 pmichaud afk # sleep
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10:43 masak colomon: ah. nice realization of a simple game mechanics. cool.
10:43 masak s/cs/c/
10:45 jnthn OK, rest time....can't stay awake...
10:46 jnthn o/
10:46 masak jnthn: 'night
10:47 masak the latest spec change says 'break' outside of a topicalizer block is a compile-time error.
10:47 masak rakudo: break
10:47 p6eval rakudo 8566a6: OUTPUT«␤»
10:47 * masak submits rakudobug
10:47 masak std: break
10:48 p6eval std 28191: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
10:48 masak TimToady: ^
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11:11 colomon masak: I can't take credit for that last one... my one-year-old decided to hit some keys when I wasn't looking.
11:12 masak smart one-year-old.
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11:12 masak anyway, I like Theseus. I suddenly had the urge to write a Theseus maze generator in Perl 6.
11:18 cognominal masak, indead many of these games are representable by a graph and it is probably some interesting challenge to generate such graphs
11:19 masak cognominal: with Theseus it seems entirely feasible to automate the whole process.
11:19 cognominal http://www.kiragames.com/games/unblockme-free
11:20 masak let's say the shape of the outer walls of the labyrinth is given, for simplicity's sake.
11:20 masak then the only thing left to fix is the exact layout of the walls.
11:20 cognominal "only thing"  :)
11:20 masak yes, well, hold on. there's more. :)
11:21 masak we can rule out walls which entirely shut off parts of the maze.
11:21 masak since those effectively change the shape of the outer walls, or even make the level trivial or impossible.
11:22 cognominal btw speaking of cocoa, with snow leopard they have closure in C and objective C block.  I hope it will make to the iPhone.
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11:22 masak then, we start moving Theseus around, making the Minotaur make his moves according to the rules. just make every move possible on that level, depth-first. collect every unique game position in a hash.
11:23 masak when the search is done, compare the number of successful paths through the level to the number of deaths.
11:24 masak an interesting level will be one where 0% < p <= 10% of probability of success.
11:24 masak all this can be automated. it might take a very long time, but it can be left running. and it will churn out interesting Theseus levels with a given shape.
11:27 cognominal with all this games, for generating or solving them, one needs some insight to avoid a combinatorial explosion that makes the search too long.
11:27 masak I'll have to try it, but to me the search tree doesn't seem very wide in this case.
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11:32 masak of course, the combinatorial explosion might arise on the level of selecting the right combination of walls... hm, 2^N... yes, that's probably the tricky part... :)
11:32 cognominal Indeed there is not so many positions possibles
11:37 moritz_ exponents kill ;-)
11:37 masak factorials, too.
11:38 moritz_ factorials are just mean exponents in disguise
11:38 moritz_ log(N!) ~ N * log(N) + O(N)
11:39 masak true, true.
11:39 masak a bit meaner, even.
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11:40 moritz_ hacking the build/Makefile.in and then forgetting to run Configure.pl is annoying ;-)
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11:41 cognominal masak : probably a complex theseus game can be generated by the composition of simpler ones by removing/adding any wall that is irrelevant
11:42 masak pardon, but that sounds like wishful thinking to me.
11:43 masak of course, I'm speculating as much as you are when I say that. working code trumps guesses. :)
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11:58 moritz_ now that we have context varialbes in place, we can switch to 'augment class', I think
11:58 moritz_ (at least I think that was the blocker)
12:01 Hammit hi guys :)
12:01 moritz_ hello Hammit
12:01 Hammit how will perl6 handle using other languages libraries?
12:01 Hammit like XS in perl5
12:01 moritz_ no
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12:02 moritz_ Rakudo supports loading of foreign libraries without writing any C glue code
12:02 Hammit :o execellent
12:02 moritz_ at least for libraries which are written in another language that is implemented on top of parrot
12:02 Hammit ok
12:02 moritz_ so lua, TCL and a bit of ruby work
12:02 Hammit so its got nothing to do with perl6 then?
12:03 Hammit to do more with parrot
12:03 moritz_ yes
12:03 Hammit ok
12:03 moritz_ the Perl 6 semantics of foreign language interaction are still a bit unclear (at least to me :)
12:04 Hammit do you think that will get fleshed out more later?
12:04 Hammit or do you think it'll be avoided?
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12:05 moritz_ it will get fleshed out
12:05 Hammit :)
12:05 moritz_ the syntax is pretty clear
12:05 moritz_ use SomeModule :from<language>;
12:05 Hammit oh
12:05 Hammit goodie :)
12:05 moritz_ and eval($foreign_code, :lang<language>);
12:05 Hammit thaht's quite nice
12:06 moritz_ but I don't know if every Perl 6 implementation must support that, and to which extend
12:06 Hammit yeah, ok
12:07 Hammit so in some cases, where a c library already exists, it might be better to go perl5 path than re-implement the library on parrot to use in perl6
12:07 moritz_ well, parrot can call C libraries just fine
12:07 Hammit oh hehehe
12:07 moritz_ so it's mostly a matter of plumbing
12:08 Hammit ok, kewl
12:08 moritz_ actually parrot as a compiler that parses .h files and writes NCI signature files for you
12:08 Hammit ok. ta. never heard of the NCI files before
12:08 moritz_ it's not complete yet, but it worked for an initial binding of mysql, postgres and sqlite (iirc)
12:09 moritz_ NCI = native call interface
12:09 Hammit v.good
12:09 Hammit same for c++ then right
12:09 cognominal I suppose that Perl 6 will be unacceptably slow for a while, but it can gain traction if we can write scripts in Perl 6 that access perl 5 libraries
12:09 moritz_ no idea
12:09 Hammit ok
12:10 Hammit so we just write a perl script as per normal in p6, and before we use our p5 module, we turn on p5 compatibility more?
12:10 Hammit mode*
12:11 moritz_ in an ideal world we just load the Perl 5 module
12:11 moritz_ use DBI :from<perl5>;
12:12 moritz_ my $handle = DBI.connect(....);
12:12 Hammit oh...hehehehe of course :)
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12:12 cognominal Hammit,  what blizkost will probably do is to wrap  perl 5 values into perl 6 values
12:12 moritz_ my $sth = $handle.prepare_cached('SELECT ...');
12:12 cognominal s/values/containers/
12:13 Hammit ok
12:13 cognominal blizkost is the binding between Perl 6 and Perl 5. It is in its very early stage : less than 2 weeks old
12:13 Hammit oh
12:14 Hammit wow
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12:14 moritz_ $ perl6 -e 'say eval("3+4", :lang<perl5>)'
12:14 moritz_ 7
12:14 moritz_ that works locally here
12:14 moritz_ rakudo: say eval("3+4", :lang<perl5>)
12:14 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«7␤»
12:14 Hammit hehehe
12:14 moritz_ hey, it even works on the server
12:14 moritz_ rakudo: say eval("[1, 2]", :lang<perl5>) # no idea if arrays work already
12:15 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«ARRAY(0x9659900)␤»
12:15 moritz_ rakudo: say eval("[1, 2]", :lang<perl5>).[0]
12:15 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'P5Scalar'␤in Main (/tmp/IoxQhO4ObC:2)␤»
12:15 moritz_ seems like not ;-)
12:15 Hammit :(
12:15 Hammit ah well...worth a try
12:15 cognominal moritz_,  I am working on it, but I have a lot to learn...
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12:16 cognominal so far the hash and array pmc wrappers exist but they don't contain any method.
12:17 cognominal also, there is currently no way to wrap a perl 5 reference to some perl 6 equivalent.  a capture?
12:18 moritz_ or maybe a Parcel?
12:19 moritz_ probably both aren't properly implemented in Rakudo yet
12:19 cognominal moritz_, I don't know. I am reading a lot to figure out what's needed. I think, right now a capture would be a good start.
12:19 masak I was present when the Parcel type was invented, but I never really grokked the need for it.
12:20 cognominal I am confused with the commonalites and differences of Parcel, Signature, Capture...
12:21 moritz_ well, Signatures and Captures go together...
12:21 cognominal probably things will get clearer when parrot will get there so that jnthn will be able to code them
12:22 moritz_ a Signature is something like a template, which contains variables
12:22 masak is there a way to ask a Callable, "hey, if I give you this Capture, would your Signature match it?"
12:22 moritz_ and a Capture is a collection of values, and binding that to a signature binds the values to the variables
12:22 moritz_ masak: yes, smart matching
12:22 moritz_ (but probably NYI)
12:22 cognominal A capture contains values while signature contains types?
12:23 moritz_ $capture ~~  &thing.signature
12:23 moritz_ cognominal: roughly like that, yes
12:23 masak moritz_: ah, yes. thanks.
12:24 cognominal types being classes/roles with constraints
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12:36 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/pg.svg rakudo spectest chart, generated by a Perl 6 module.
12:38 masak \o/
12:38 moritz_ working on SVG::Plot has been very much -Ofun
12:39 masak I wish I knew a way to eliminate those thin white lines between the bars...
12:39 moritz_ I keep telling myself that it's just a "throw-one-away" prototype for Tufte
12:39 moritz_ masak: it's a common rendering bug in various SVG rendering engines
12:39 masak ok.
12:40 moritz_ I just multiplied all bar widths by (1 + $small_number)
12:40 moritz_ so there are no spaces in between if rendered correctly
12:40 moritz_ and still they did not disappear
12:41 moritz_ so I'm pretty sure it's a rendering bug
12:43 masak I've had similar rendering problems with a generated SVG graph of mine.
12:44 masak it's for my Druid OO refactoring blog post... which I still haven't posted. amazing!
12:44 masak it's been in the queue since, I don't know, February.
12:44 moritz_ I've been asking myself if I'm sufficiently pissed off by this bug to use SVG paths instead of rects
12:44 moritz_ and decided the answer was "no"
12:44 masak oh, the rects cause the problem, do they?
12:45 moritz_ because bar charts are just the wrong typo of chart for this set of data
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12:45 masak anyway, the graph looks much better than the old one. moritz_++
12:46 moritz_ well, I'm pretty sure that if I used a closed path and then fill it it won't have such artifacts
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12:48 masak good to know.
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12:54 moritz_ (mind you, I didn't try it)
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15:00 pmichaud rakudo:  say %*ENV.perl;
15:01 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«{"LS_COLORS" =>
15:01 p6eval .."no=00:fi=00:di=01;34:ln=01;36:pi=40;33:so=​01;35:do=01;35:bd=40;33;01:cd=40;33;01:or=40;​31;01:su=37;41:sg=30;43:tw=30;42:ow=34;42:st=​37;44:ex=01;32:*.tar=01;31:*.tgz=01;31:*.svgz​=01;31:*.arj=01;31:*.taz=01;31:*.lzh=01;31:*.​lzma=01;31:*.zip=01;31:*.z=01;31:*.Z=01;31:…
15:01 pmichaud \o/
15:03 masak 'o-
15:03 masak er, \o/
15:05 moritz_ rakudo: $*ENV<LC_COLORS> = ''; say $*ENV.perl
15:05 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«Method 'postcircumfix:{ }' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤»
15:05 moritz_ rakudo: %*ENV<LC_COLORS> = ''; say $*ENV.perl
15:05 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«undef␤»
15:05 moritz_ rakudo: %*ENV<LC_COLORS> = ''; say %*ENV.perl
15:05 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«{"LESSCLOSE" => "/usr/bin/lesspipe \%s \%s", "PATH" => "/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games", "LS_COLORS" =>
15:05 p6eval .."no=00:fi=00:di=01;34:ln=01;36:pi=40;33:s​o=01;35:do=01;35:bd=40;33;01:cd=40;33;01:or​=40;31;01:su=37;41:sg=30;43:tw=30;42:ow=34;​42:st=37;44:ex=01;32:*.tar=01;31:*.tgz=01;…
15:06 * moritz_ just had a set of perl 5 backflashes
15:07 pmichaud hmmmmm
15:08 moritz_ rakudo: say (-4/5) < 0
15:08 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:09 pmichaud rakudo:  say 4/0;
15:09 p6eval rakudo 6e2104:  ( no output )
15:09 pmichaud rakudo:  say 4/0;
15:09 p6eval rakudo 6e2104:  ( no output )
15:10 pmichaud hmmm
15:10 pmichaud rakudo:  say 4/0;
15:10 p6eval rakudo 6e2104:  ( no output )
15:10 * pmichaud fixes.
15:10 moritz_ pmichaud: if there is Foo.pm and Foo.pir present, currently Rakudo always uses the .pir one - could that be changed to compare the timestamps, and only use the .pir if it's newer than the pm?
15:11 pmichaud it could, yes, but I think there are other issues at play also
15:11 pmichaud for example, what if it finds a .pir in one directory and a .pm in another?
15:12 moritz_ good question
15:12 pmichaud in the larger realm of things, I'm suspecting that file timestamps won't be a real criteria
15:13 mberends let's leave these refinements for the future module database
15:13 pmichaud that's been my approach thus far, yes :)
15:13 moritz_ and its sensible; I just got bitten by that a few times in the last two days
15:14 moritz_ which is why I came up with it now
15:14 pmichaud we could warn or fail if that's the case
15:14 moritz_ another solution would be speed up rakudo sufficiently that module precompilation feels much less necessary ;-)
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15:15 cognominal A question about S05, is there a way to expand a rule within another like in http://gist.github.com/181438
15:17 pmichaud cognominal: I'm not aware of a way to do this at present, no.
15:17 pmichaud although I hope your example means it should expand to
15:17 pmichaud token t { [ <a> | <b> | <c> ] | <d> }
15:18 cognominal yes, I was confused
15:18 cognominal but you got the intent
15:18 pmichaud I think that TheDamian's  Grammar::Parse module has a feature similar to that, so we might see something similar show up in S05
15:19 pmichaud it might get difficult when working with something like
15:19 cognominal you mean : Regexp::Grammars?
15:19 pmichaud yeah, that
15:19 moritz_ when you implement variable interpolation you don't know all the possible captures at compile time anyway, no?
15:19 pmichaud but it might get difficult with something like
15:19 pmichaud token t { <=v> | <b> }
15:20 pmichaud er
15:20 pmichaud token t { <=v> <b> }
15:20 pmichaud because there's not any way to statically determine that <b> results in an array capture
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15:22 pmichaud (variable interpolations are treated as subrules)
15:24 cognominal pmichaud, I don't get the problem with your example
15:25 pmichaud suppose we have
15:25 pmichaud token v { <a> | <b> | <c> }
15:25 pmichaud and then we have
15:25 pmichaud token v { <=v> <d> }
15:25 pmichaud which ought to be the same as
15:26 pmichaud token v { [ <a> | <b> | <c> ] <d> }
15:26 pmichaud $<b> will always be a single match object (if it's the thing that matches)
15:26 pmichaud arggggh
15:26 pmichaud mistypes
15:26 pmichaud let me start over
15:26 pmichaud suppose we have
15:26 pmichaud token v { <a> | <b> | <c> }
15:26 pmichaud and then we have
15:26 pmichaud token t { <=v> <d> }
15:26 pmichaud then this should be the same as
15:27 pmichaud token t { [ <a> | <b> | <c> ] <d> }
15:27 pmichaud however, consider
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15:27 pmichaud token t2 { <=v> <b> }
15:27 pmichaud which would be the same as
15:27 pmichaud token t2 { [ <a> | <b> | <c> ] <b> }
15:27 pmichaud in this case, $<b> would end up being an array of match objects, because it appears twice in the same lexical scope
15:28 cognominal ok, got it
15:28 pmichaud but we can't determine that by looking at the   token t2 { <=v> <b> }  definition
15:29 masak ah, intricate.
15:29 pmichaud of course, if one is interested only in the text of <=v>, and not its subtree structure, then we have
15:30 pmichaud token t { <.v> | <d> }
15:30 pmichaud but I suspect that's not what you're looking for :)
15:34 cognominal One can detect the error at execution time though.
15:34 pmichaud it would require a lot of additional knowledge to do that
15:34 cognominal ok
15:35 moritz_ how are captures of interpolated patterns organized
15:36 moritz_ s/$/?/
15:36 pmichaud interpolated patterns don't capture by default
15:36 pmichaud one can explicitly capture them, which then answers your question :-)
15:36 moritz_ ok
15:37 pmichaud $<xyz>=<$var> /   # capture $var into $<xyz>
15:37 TimToady <xyz=$var> more typically
15:38 pmichaud would the $var in that case be treated as $var or as <$var> ?
15:38 TimToady <$var>
15:38 pmichaud okay
15:38 cognominal really, my proposition does not need to authorize interpolated patterns in the expanded rule to be useful
15:39 TimToady any foo= prefix inside <> is just recursive back to <>
15:39 pmichaud TimToady: got it, thanks
15:39 pmichaud TimToady: did you see my comment about $*XYZ automatically looking in %*ENV<XYZ> as potentially being unsafe ?
15:39 TimToady no, haven't bled yet
15:39 pmichaud okay
15:40 TimToady waiting for coffee...
15:40 pmichaud it was just a one-liner
15:40 pmichaud that feature just reminds me a bit of PHP's "register_globals" and/or superglobals, which have been a big security issue
15:43 TimToady but in that sense I suspect all dynamic variables are unsafe, when you don't know who is going to use your module and fail to init them at every entry point
15:43 pmichaud %*ENV takes it a slight step farther, I think, in that the values come from outside the script
15:44 pmichaud one could suppose that taint checks handle that
15:44 TimToady you can get privilege escalation with sandboxen too
15:45 pmichaud anyway, it was just a thought that occurred to me while implementing it (and given that I've just had to deal with a lot of register_global nastiness in $otherjob)
15:45 TimToady nod
15:45 TimToady I've just been trying to break myself of thinking that the Unix process model was forever
15:46 TimToady so I've tended to look at internal feeds as pipes, etc.
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15:47 TimToady and generally think of subprocesses within a program as much as possible like subprocesses outside of programs
15:47 TimToady anyway, will think on it more when the caffeine hits
15:48 pmichaud great.  I don't have a strong opinion, it was more a "minor discomfort that I can easily ignore for a long time"  :)
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16:05 TimToady std: sub { "hello" #`(test) }.()
16:05 p6eval std 28192: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 37m␤»
16:06 sharada cool
16:07 TimToady just doublechecking something that confused rakudo when JimmyZ tried it earlier
16:07 TimToady rakudo: sub { "hello" #`(test) }.()
16:07 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near ".()"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
16:07 moritz_ bug, right?
16:07 TimToady but rakudo will presumably get less confused after converging on STD
16:08 TimToady yes, but not necessarily one I'd expect to be fixed before convergence
16:08 moritz_ what's so hard about it?
16:09 moritz_ I'll open a ticket anyway
16:09 TimToady k
16:12 pmichaud rakudo:   (sub { 'hello' }).()
16:12 p6eval rakudo 6e2104:  ( no output )
16:12 pmichaud rakudo:   (sub { 'hello' }).().say
16:12 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:12 pmichaud rakudo:   (sub { 'hello' #`(test) }).().say
16:12 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:13 moritz_ rakudo:   (sub { "hello" #`(test) }).().say
16:13 pmichaud I think rakudo gets confused by the .() after the "sub block"
16:13 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:13 moritz_ rakudo: sub { 'hello' }.()
16:13 pmichaud I'm curious how std breaks down that particular construct
16:13 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near ".()"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
16:14 TimToady the intent has been that . after {} treats the {} as terminating an arglist, but it might actually be broken at the moment in STD
16:14 pmichaud rakudo:  { 'hello' }.().say
16:14 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:14 pmichaud rakudo:  { 'hello' #`(test) }.().say
16:14 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«hello␤»
16:15 pmichaud rakudo:  ({ 'hello' #`(test) }).().say
16:15 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Perl6Str'␤in Main (/tmp/N0pRy9YbLz:2)␤»
16:15 pmichaud that one looks bogus
16:15 pmichaud afk # library
16:15 TimToady it's a bare block, so executes immediately
16:15 pmichaud oh, yes, of course.
16:15 pmichaud rakudo++  pmichaud--
16:17 TimToady rakudo: <3 1 4 1 5 9 6 2 5>.sort: { +$_ }.say
16:17 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«_block61␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Boolean'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
16:18 TimToady the intent was to support something like that
16:18 TimToady but it might be a bad idea
16:21 TimToady it would be better to have something that turns the entire statement into a term for the .say
16:22 TimToady I have at times ponder introducing a ;. operator
16:22 TimToady *pondered
16:23 moritz_ rakudo: say (-3.3).Int, ' ', (3.3).Int
16:23 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«-3 3␤»
16:25 TimToady used to be that truncation policy was a performance win to avoid doing division, but maybe it isn't so much anymore
16:26 moritz_ rakudo: say (3/4).Int
16:26 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:30 TimToady ooh, I think I might have it.  we can already say $foo\i to disambiguate a postfix, so maybe \\ could do that and whack the precedence back down to term level too
16:31 TimToady that would make it <3 1 4 1 5 9 6 2 5>.sort: { +$_ }\\.say
16:32 TimToady with sort of a visual picture of the .say dominating the left side
16:33 moritz_ don't we have pipes for that already?
16:33 moritz_ <3 1 4 1 5 9 6 2 5>.sort: { +$_ } ==> &say
16:33 moritz_ or whatever it look like
16:33 TimToady &say is a function, not a method
16:33 moritz_ point taken
16:34 TimToady just trying to make a way to keep a string of methods flowing in a rubyescque way
16:34 TimToady but yeah, maybe it's ==> *.say or some such
16:35 TimToady or @(*).say
16:35 TimToady don't remember offheand
16:35 TimToady *hand
16:35 TimToady kinda klunky though
16:36 moritz_ maybe @* should be a WhateverList term ;-) (just kidding)
16:36 TimToady and strange for single objects
16:36 moritz_ aye
16:38 TimToady otoh it is more visual than <3 1 4 1 5 9 6 2 5>.sort: { +$_ };.say
16:38 TimToady and ;. suffers under golfing out newlines
16:38 TimToady if the intent was $_.say
16:39 TimToady but basically a backwards statement prefix of some sort :)
16:40 TimToady I guess that would be a statement postfix...
16:45 TimToady like "done", "gatethed", "tried", "voided"  :)
16:45 TimToady *gathered
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16:53 TimToady well, parens are usually better, and already there :)
16:59 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/lines-neg.svg # SVG::Plot now understand ranges that don't begin from 0
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17:49 TimToady pmichaud: I don't see your $*XYZ comment anywhere in the log
17:53 TimToady but yeah, we should probably make the user explicitly say our $*XYZ = %*ENV<XYZ> in GLOBAL, which is pretty easy since UNIT starts in GLOBAL
17:55 TimToady or rather our $XYZ, if we drop * in packages
18:03 pugs_svn r28193 | lwall++ | [S02] obliterate fallback from contextuals to %*ENV as a trust issue
18:03 TimToady pmichaud++
18:03 TimToady which reminds me, does rakudo have a story on tainting yet?
18:06 TimToady afk &
18:12 dukeleto it would be super cool if someone added rakudo examples to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch
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18:26 pmichaud <3 1 4 1 5 9 6 2 5>.sort(+*).say
18:26 pmichaud rakudo: <3 1 4 1 5 9 6 2 5>.sort(+*).say
18:26 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«112345569␤»
18:26 pmichaud seems hard to beat that :-)
18:28 pmichaud TimToady: rakudo doesn't have a tainting story yet, but Parrot is supposedly planning to develop a story for that also.
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18:28 pmichaud so I've mainly been waiting to see if/when the Perl 6 and Parrot stories converge :)
18:29 * dukeleto likes stories
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18:53 cognominal I have to get used to think Whatever when an * appear in an operand position. On the other hand it is such a powerful way to dwim when you don't know how to say what you mean that it will not be difficult once supported everywhere.
18:55 cognominal I guess that's what so special about Perl. You think a feature a is just trouble and before you know it you can't live without it.
18:56 cognominal I am sure the camelia logo is no different.
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19:13 dukeleto camelia rocks. we need stickers
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19:39 pmichaud I can put stickers up on the cafepress/zazzle sites :)
19:40 pmichaud draft of Rakudo day posting:  http://pmichaud.com/wiki/Perl6/Context
19:40 pmichaud comments and suggestions welcomed
19:44 pmichaud cognominal: (Whatever, * and dwim)  I think it's a similar story as the smart match operator.  When you first look at it, one thinks "trouble", but after a while it's just so powerful and natural...
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19:57 pmichaud http://use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39585  # rakudo day posting
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20:16 cognominal pmichaud, I have not followed closely contextual variable but I am not sure to grasp the difference with temporary variables. Also, when I grep as see a lot of variables with the * twigil declared as temp.
20:18 cognominal probably contxtual variables have  to do  with the GLOBAL and PROCESS space while temparory variable don't and my grep hits  fossils
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20:53 pmichaud cognominal: yes, I suspect your grep is hitting fossils.  Previously  $*foo meant just 'global'
20:54 pmichaud one of the primary differences between a contextual and a temp is that the outer contextuals are still available
20:54 pmichaud for example,   my $*OUT = ...   still leaves $PROCESS::OUT available
20:55 pmichaud afk, nap
20:55 cognominal thx.  I am tired, see you tomorrow
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22:52 mikehh forgot to report rakudo (6e2104a) builds on parrot r41004 - make test / make spectest (up to r28192) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
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22:55 mikehh rakudo (6e2104a) builds on parrot r41019 - make test / make spectest (up to r28193) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (gcc)
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23:52 masak oh hai. wonky connection, etc.
23:52 masak is the following bug known/reported?
23:52 masak rakudo: my $x = 'foo'; (class { method bar { say $x } }).new.bar
23:52 p6eval rakudo 6e2104: OUTPUT«Lexical '$x' not found␤»
23:56 masak it's no biggie, but it did stop me in the tracks of writing this: http://gist.github.com/181565
23:56 masak using a fluent interface with chained methods felt like a cute thing to do. the workaround would be to have four normal methods. :)

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