Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-09-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:57 asciiville tene: The original issue was when passing Pointer PMCs vi Parrot NCI to libsqlite3. It appears that libsqlite3 was stepping on the pointer itself when trying to get either a database or statement handle.
00:58 Tene asciiville: what libsqlite functions stomped like that?
00:58 asciiville open, prepare
00:58 Tene Huh.
00:58 Tene They seem to work fine for me.
00:58 asciiville out of the box?
00:58 Tene Yes.
00:59 asciiville from the Parrot source tree?
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00:59 Tene Yes.
01:00 asciiville I'm bewildered then. :)
01:00 Tene I had to change the namespace of src/SQLite3/SQLite3.pir, but I can use it fine from rakudo now.
01:00 Tene I'm investigating a problem when trying to bind_text, though.
01:00 asciiville I think I found that one. SQLITE_TRANSIENT instead of SQLITE_STATIC
01:01 lisppaste3 tene pasted "Use SQLite3 from Rakudo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86684
01:02 asciiville Ah. "SQLite3" for the namespace instead of "SQLite"?
01:02 Tene Yes.
01:02 Tene The filename needs to match the namespace to be loaded from any other HLL.
01:03 asciiville That is awesome.
01:03 Tene Can you test it in ext/SQLite3/ on an up-to-date parrot for me?
01:03 asciiville Let me try.
01:04 Tene I need to add several more functions to that library and move it to runtime/parrot/library/ so that it gets installed...
01:04 asciiville Cool. Then I can pull stuff off github that I've been working on... :)
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01:13 asciiville tene: it worked after I changed the namespace in SQLite3.pir. I wasn't familiar with the use SQLite3:from<parrot>; notation.
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01:15 Tene asciiville: That actually works for any parrot-hosted language (that supports library loading), so you can use Foo:from<cardinal>, for example.
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01:15 Tene The fact that it works without the :from<parrot> is kind of an accident, and not to be relied on.
01:16 asciiville tene: an easter egg then?
01:16 Tene Kinda.
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01:19 asciiville ":from<parrot>" is my new friend
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02:14 TimToady ruoso: yes, nextsame et al. are supposed to be handled by exception, and as usual, this might be optimized away in specific cases
02:15 TimToady but you'll note that the original formulation of that concept was "next METHOD", and next is certainly exception based
02:17 TimToady moritz_: yada is supposed to work in class defs, which is probably a good argument for executing class bodies at composition time
02:18 ruoso TimToady, thanks... that clarifies a lot... which means nextsame is a simple function that works the same way in methods or routines... and the dispatcher is the one responsible for doing the right thing
02:21 TimToady and there can be a methodical form that specifies the scope to 'next', though that's unspecced
02:23 ruoso TimToady, the other question was if we have a special variable containing the capture sent to the current invocation
02:24 TimToady frettled: your Camelia is kinda 1st-gen, and points to perl6-projects.org
02:24 ruoso or if that should be resolved by the dispatcher internally
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02:24 TimToady I'm inclined to think that it would be inefficient to mandate such a variable
02:25 TimToady a given dispatcher can always choose to make more info available
02:26 TimToady but part of the reason for special nextsame verbs was to hide the actual mechanism, instead of assuming a particular loop label, for instance
02:32 ruoso TimToady, right.. I think the dispatcher has means of doing it anyway
02:33 ruoso it would only be really necessary to have such variable if nextsame wasn't implemented in terms of exceptinos
02:33 TimToady exceptinos are the supersymmetric partners of exceptions, I suppose
02:34 ruoso they are probably related to neutrinos... or maybe centrinos...
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05:53 Tene lambdabot: msg masak update parrot and then look at http://gist.github.com/182167
05:53 Tene @msg masak update parrot and then look at http://gist.github.com/182167
05:54 Tene I hope that worked...
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06:20 moritz_ phenny, tell masak 07:53 < Tene> @msg masak update parrot and then look at http://gist.github.com/182167
06:20 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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06:48 pugs_svn r28196 | moritz++ | [S12] spec behaviour of stubbed classes
06:48 pugs_svn r28196 |
06:48 pugs_svn r28196 | This is a bit more general than what I had in mind first. If the implementors
06:48 pugs_svn r28196 | say this is too hard to do it this way, we can degrade it to allow only a single
06:48 pugs_svn r28196 | '...' term in the body of a stubbed class.
06:54 Tene oh, we have a phenny!
06:54 Tene I forgot!
06:55 moritz_ phenny++
06:58 Tene .ie phenny++
06:59 Tene hey wait a sec... masak said he'd be here like an hour ago!  Where is he?
07:07 Tene phenny: summon masak
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07:25 frettled TimToady: whoops, thank you, will rectify.
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08:05 moritz_ rakudo: say (* * *).(3)
08:05 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«9␤»
08:05 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b>.perl # with non-breaking spaces
08:06 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«["a", "b"]␤»
08:10 moritz_ phenny: tell masak past weekend I stumbled upon the SVG.pm "feature" that arrays are ignored where a tag is expected, ie svg => [ [ $stuff ] ] ignores $stuff
08:10 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
08:11 moritz_ phenny: tell masak a general solution might be to flatten the array in-place. An SVG specific solution to replace it automatically with a <g>...</g> element, which is generic grouping in SVG
08:11 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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08:32 kent\n ack. where is the rakudo channel?
08:32 * kent\n has looked on magnet/freenode and not found it
08:33 Matt-W This is the channel where we discuss Rakudo
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08:33 Matt-W and other Perl 6 related things
08:33 kent\n as in, the distribution / compilation of rakudo itself?
08:33 moritz_ kent\n: all aspects of rakudo development and usage
08:33 kent\n awesome.
08:34 kent\n I'm trying to write a rakudo, build for gentoo, against an existing parrot, but when I pass it --parrot-config=/usr/bin/parrot_config its complaining its 'r0'
08:34 kent\n even though its not.
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08:35 kent\n ( parrot is also build from latest svn )
08:36 kent\n I'm assuming I'm use using it wrong, but I cant see how
08:36 kent\n ( edocumentationlacking )
08:36 moritz_ kent\n: what does '/usr/bin/parrot_config revision' say?
08:36 kent\n 0  :/
08:37 kent\n so I guess rakudo's not lying
08:37 moritz_ aye :-)
08:37 kent\n just parrot_config doesn't know what r'v it is
08:37 moritz_ in the build tree of parrot, what happens when you run ./parrot_config revision?
08:37 kent\n I'll have to check, ( build tree is rm'd after installation )
08:39 moritz_ if I can't help you, there's also #parrot on the irc.perl.org network
08:40 kent\n yeah, noted, will be asking them :)
08:40 * kent\n had just thought it was more rakudo related and was wrong :)
08:40 moritz_ well, it was a good start
08:41 moritz_ and there is a good deal of overlap between here and #parrot
08:42 * kent\n still isnt entirely sure why parrot dumps droppings into /usr/src but you cant make everyone happy
08:43 * kent\n thinks he sees the problem though
08:44 kent\n when its building parrot there is no longer a .svn dir, and I guess it kinda needs that to work out the rv
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09:03 kent\n screw it, I'll just tell it not to exclude .svn in the rsync. less difficult. ;P
09:03 moritz_ :-)
09:04 masak olá, camelionauts.
09:04 phenny masak: 06 Sep 22:32Z <mberends> tell masak web-druid runs ok on Linux but web/make.log says "no rule to make target 'lib/Handler/HTTPDaemon.pir'": there is no Handler directory
09:04 phenny masak: 06:20Z <moritz_> tell masak 07:53 < Tene> @msg masak update parrot and then look at http://gist.github.com/182167
09:04 phenny masak: 08:10Z <moritz_> tell masak past weekend I stumbled upon the SVG.pm "feature" that arrays are ignored where a tag is expected, ie svg => [ [ $stuff ] ] ignores $stuff
09:04 phenny masak: 08:11Z <moritz_> tell masak a general solution might be to flatten the array in-place. An SVG specific solution to replace it automatically with a <g>...</g> element, which is generic grouping in SVG
09:04 * masak feels sought after
09:05 moritz_ kent\n: you can also put the revision number into the .parrot_current_rev on the server, and rsync that to the client
09:06 moritz_ svn info | grep ^Revision: | cut -d ' ' -f 2 > .parrot_current_rev
09:06 kent\n its not really client server, its just how gentoo buildsystem works, the "source fetch" phase mirrors upstream into $DIR1, and then the contents of $DIR1 are copied over to $BUILDDIR during "source prepare"
09:07 kent\n its generally fine, and makes things nice and atomic, but just in this case its a bit of a burn
09:07 masak phenny: tell mberends fixed, thanks. strange that the bug is not reproduced, though. I might have to to a full reinstall of those modules.
09:07 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when mberends is around.
09:08 masak moritz_: apart from not seeing how the <g>...</g> idea would work in practice, it sounds like a neat opportunity for some syntactic sugar.
09:11 moritz_ masak: I on the other hand don't see what the problem is, but I haven't tried to implement it yet
09:12 masak moritz_: another, perhaps shorter-term solution would be to simply disallow arrays of arrays.
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09:28 masak something I've been mulling over now and then... in Perl 5, I can process files line-by-line using the /FROM_HERE/.../TO_HERE/ pattern. it works well with the -ne flags, for example.
09:29 moritz_ I think that's done with ff in Perl 6
09:29 masak yes, but ff is woefully underspecced.
09:29 masak and I doubt it does the trick with $. which Perl 5 does.
09:29 Matt-W Well, you'll just have to spec it :)
09:29 masak that's what I wanted to talk about.
09:30 Matt-W Well there's no $. in Perl 6, so...
09:30 masak Matt-W: it's spelled $*IN.ins
09:31 frettled moritz_: tsk tsk, not using perl for that svn info thingy!  What were you thinking?  :D
09:31 moritz_ of bootstrapping :-)
09:32 frettled masak: I think krunen is thinking about a proposal for generalized tree handling in Perl 6, that might make things easier, too.
09:32 masak frettled: sorry, I don't see the connection.
09:33 frettled masak: since essentially all XML is a tree form, you'd get generalized tree handling routines instead of having to roll your own, might reduce code.  It's not _directly_ related to your problem, just thought it was worth mentioning.  (Also to get krunen started, muahaha.)
09:34 masak I wish krunen luck. wayland has been thinking along these lines, too.
09:35 masak I wouldn't mind a good library to manage trees in Perl 6, but I honestly don't think it belongs in core.
09:35 Matt-W I want to see it before I decide that :)
09:35 Juerd I remember the time when TimToady wasn't on IRC and now he even uses Twitter! :)
09:35 frettled I'm not sure that it's intended to be in the core.
09:35 masak frettled: ah. wayland did, I think.
09:38 frettled Is the distinction between «core» and «modules distributed with the core» meaningful in this regard, BTW?
09:39 Juerd For Perl5 I once suggested that there be "core" and "standard"
09:41 frettled Mm.
09:41 frettled The core would contain core _language_ features, and the standard lib would contain additional, modular functionality?
09:41 Juerd Yes
09:42 frettled With Perl 6, this may make even more sense.
09:42 frettled Core language features could be implementation dependent code.  Standard library features would be coded in Perl 6.
09:43 Juerd In p5, strict.pm would be a core module, CGI.pm would be called standard.
09:43 frettled So, in essence, things would be tidier in the bike shed if all the hand-held tools hung on the wall.
09:44 Juerd I've never bothered to write a precise definition, though
09:44 Juerd I'm not so good at real world metaphors for programming :)
09:44 frettled I managed to stay serious for more than 12 minutes, I needed a break.  ;)
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09:45 frettled Juerd: see also http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding :)
09:46 Juerd I know what bikeshedding is
09:46 * masak imagines that page being full of opinions about how the word should be defined
09:46 frettled hee-hee
09:46 Juerd Just can't see how you would need tools to do that :)
09:46 frettled aha
09:47 * frettled was probably too obscure, again.
09:47 frettled But look over there, isn't that a diversion?!
09:47 * frettled lunches.
09:47 carlin top of the bikeshedding article: "Vote on a logo for Wiktionary"
09:48 masak uh oh.
09:49 carlin Wonder if they have any butterflies we can vote for ...
09:50 Juerd Wictionary... isn't that the game where you have to draw something and people have to recognise the policy?
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09:50 Juerd s/c/k/
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09:51 carlin I can't immagine Wiktionary's policies being anywhere near as bad as Wikipedia's
09:53 Juerd bikeshedding[citation needed]
09:53 Juerd {{NPOV}}
09:54 carlin Some people[who?] claim[citation needed] that bikeshedding[jargon] ...
09:54 Juerd :)
09:57 masak lunch &
09:57 carlin there's a few [citation needed]s in the Perl 6 article
09:59 frettled Ooh.
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10:21 mikehh forgot to post this here - rakudo (205733f) builds on parrot r41105 - make test / make spectest (up to r28196) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
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10:33 cognominal is STD an acronym? besides being the STandDard Perl 6 grammar?
10:33 moritz_ I'm looking at the wikipedia article on Perl 6
10:33 moritz_ the example about macros look wrong to me
10:34 moritz_ no need for {{{ ... }}} unless you're inside a quasi... oh, we are. never mind.
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10:39 carlin rakudo: my @a = < ♣ ♢ >; say @a.splice(0, 1).perl;
10:39 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«["♣"]␤»
10:40 carlin it outputs gibberish from the CLI from a file I'm getting "no ICU lib loaded"
10:40 carlin s/from/but from/
10:41 moritz_ carlin: the REPL  is known to have lots of troubles with Unicode
10:41 moritz_ so you need to install libicu before configuring parrot
10:51 carlin ah, now it works. Thanks moritz_
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11:47 moritz_ http://github.com/languages/Perl Rakudo is the "most watched" and "most forked" perl project overall
11:48 frettled nice
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11:55 masak it's working! Tene++ \o/ !!!
11:55 masak so, people. time to dig down and write a Perl 6 web app with a database backend.
11:56 masak what do we do first? Druid? a simple weblog? something entirely different?
11:56 masak this is big, I tell you. a new landscape opening up.
11:58 moritz_ a DB backend for Novemeber?
11:58 masak yes, that too.
11:59 masak November already has a bit of infrastructure, so I envision a kind of ORM-like thing being better for it than just directly fiddling with SQL.
12:00 masak mst suggested Sequel as a good role model for that: http://sequel.rubyforge.org/
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12:02 masak but I was looking for something which makes a bit of a splash. Druid or a blog engine would do that, I think.
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12:26 masak phenny: tell Tene um, it's kinda crippling that one has to sit in the same directory as SQLite3.pir... any plans to change that?
12:26 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when Tene is around.
12:27 masak in the meantime, I think I'll peruse the Sequel source.
12:28 frettled That's very IBM-ish of you.  :D
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12:28 masak what is? perusing?
12:29 frettled «Sequel» :D
12:29 masak do elaborate.
12:29 frettled See the «History» section for SQL in Wikipedia, it should be very early.
12:30 moritz_ isn't 'sequel' how some people pronounce SQL?
12:30 frettled Yes.
12:30 frettled «SQL» was coined as a term/initial abbreviation because of patents or something.
12:32 frettled «It's pronounced «sequel»!  No, «ess-cue-el»!» - one of the great flame wars of the nineties.  Oh, the humanity.  :D
12:32 Matt-W not always
12:32 Matt-W I've met people who say 'sequel' (rare), 'ess cue el' (common) and 'squirrel' (very rare)
12:33 masak squirrel!
12:33 masak very rare -- I should bloody well hope so!
12:33 moritz_ squirrels++
12:33 hanekomu I say "ess cue el" if I want to be picky, but normally "sequel" is much easier. For example, "ess cue el server" is a mouthful, but "sequel server" just flows.
12:33 hanekomu not that i recommend that particular product, of course
12:33 carlin I think people would look at them funny whe nthey start talking about "my squirrel"
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12:34 kent\n "im going to install my squirrel"
12:34 frettled Or «mysqueal»
12:34 kent\n "riiiiigh"
12:34 Patterner I use "SubeQuaL"
12:34 hanekomu "and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry…"
12:34 kent\n postgresquirrel
12:35 masak actually, the 'y' in MySQL, it could be argued, should be pronounced in the way only us Swedes can successfully pronounce it -- since MySQL was originally a Swedish enterprise.
12:35 huf this isnt a rare occurrence tho, think about libc functions or c types
12:35 huf is there a standard way of saying "char"?
12:35 frettled yes, at least two.
12:35 huf ;)
12:35 hanekomu :)
12:35 moritz_ oh, and there's the possible confusion with "squirrelmail"
12:35 hanekomu the "jar" way of saying it encourages bad habits though
12:36 kent\n the one that sounds like an automotive vehicle I'd argue is the wrong one
12:36 masak chARRR! btw, TLaPD is coming up.
12:36 hanekomu people here (in Austria) often (always?) say "arjive" when they mean "archive". makes me cringe everytime.
12:36 huf and then add to this mix coders whose first language isnt english... you get query pronounced as qw-ayer-ee
12:36 hanekomu a bit like "two times", when they mean "twice"
12:37 kent\n hanekomu: wht? you're joking ?
12:37 kent\n Arjive?!?
12:37 hanekomu well, English isn't our native language, so when they see "archive", they think of "arch-enemy" and such
12:37 frettled kent\n: it could be worse, it could be a Flemish-speaker with a very bad accent.
12:37 kent\n it could be worse, it could be a german, with a cold.
12:38 * kent\n is somewhat a bit of both at present
12:38 * masak reads README.pod in http://github.com/jeremyevans/sequel/ ... liking Sequel already...
12:38 huf hanekomu: i've heard at least "kar", "char" and "ts-har with a hard h"
12:39 kent\n every time people say "sequel" the initail thought is "the sequel to what exactly?"
12:39 masak I propose we standardize the pronunciation of 'char' to "Krakken!".
12:39 hanekomu huf: in german? because i can't imagine an English speaker saying "ts-har", and it don't know what the different in English between "kar" and "char" is anyway
12:40 huf hanekomu: hungarian, so pronounced with the hungarian ortography ;)
12:40 hanekomu other differences: whatever they call #, !, @, *
12:40 huf hanekomu: well, one is with a k and the other with the ch in chair and words like that
12:40 kent\n # <-- hash
12:40 kent\n not sharp
12:40 hanekomu should be "hash, bang, at, star," right
12:40 frettled octothorpe
12:40 kent\n thats a different character
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12:41 hanekomu i've heard octothorpe for # (well, "raute" is what some people call in German)
12:41 kent\n ♯ <-- ;)
12:41 hanekomu no one here says "bang", always "rufzeichen" = "exclamation mark"
12:41 kent\n C♯ is "C-Sharp" , C# is "C-Hash" , imho.
12:42 kent\n s/h//
12:42 hanekomu but for "@" some people say (not so much anymore since email addresses became ubiquitous) "klammeraffe" = "spider monkey"
12:42 hanekomu go figure
12:42 huf here it's "worm"
12:43 kent\n whut
12:43 frettled kanelbulle
12:43 frettled dog turd
12:43 carlin so there isn't one you can't bikeshed over the name of?
12:43 huf ;)
12:43 frettled carlin: of course not
12:44 frettled we are geeks.
12:44 masak snabel-a "(elephant's) trunk A"
12:44 kent\n ~ <-- what about that?
12:44 frettled alfakrøll/krøllalfa (alpha, curled/curly alpha)
12:44 frettled tilde, squiggle, …
12:44 hanekomu on a related note, I love the norwegian word for "cache": "hurtigbuffer" because "hurtig" is a quaint, almost childlike way of saying "fast" in german
12:44 kent\n "squiggle" is not a legitamate name imo
12:44 kent\n too ambiguous
12:45 kent\n { could be squiggle
12:45 kent\n & could be squiggle
12:45 kent\n ~ is imo, only tilda
12:45 kent\n tilde*
12:46 kent\n what about '=' ?
12:46 carlin wave
12:50 kent\n this explains why they use greek letters for everything -_-
12:51 frettled –­-
12:57 masak I kinda like the example code on http://sequel.rubyforge.org/ -- I think a good first step would be to translate it to Perl 6 and make it run.
12:59 * ruoso watching the google tech talk on the natural programming project
13:03 frettled masak: That example code reminds me of one of the pet peeves about many database scripting frameworks (I'm not saying that it's true of this Ruby framework): they focus too much on table creation and too little on data extraction, to the extent that it becomes unclear how to best extract data.
13:03 masak frettled: oh, then you should go read the README.pod immediately.
13:03 masak I did, and I was happily surprised.
13:04 masak (to the point that I now wonder "how the heck am I supposed to implement that?")
13:04 masak it would seem that it uses chained method calls, and somehow creates the SQL query lazily when needed.
13:05 masak so
13:05 masak DB[:countries].filter(:region => 'Middle East').reverse_order(:area).limit(5).avg(:GDP)
13:05 masak becomes
13:05 masak SELECT avg(GDP) FROM countries WHERE region = 'Middle East' ORDER BY area DESC LIMIT 5
13:06 masak that's not "focusing too little on data extraction" in my book. :)
13:06 frettled yes, it is.
13:07 frettled (in my book)
13:07 masak then you have different demands on such a layer than I currently have.
13:07 frettled Compare the example for creating a table as a class with, er, the missing similar example for accessing the table as a class.
13:09 masak I see a few examples of accessing the table as a class.
13:10 frettled Yes, but in order to grasp how to handle the table as a class, you need to read almost all the documentation, while table creation is extremely simple.
13:10 frettled However, table creation is a rare event; table access is frequent.
13:11 masak if that's your strongest complaint about the framework, I think they're onto something. :)
13:11 frettled no, that's the immediately obvious complaint regarding the _documentation_ of the framework.
13:12 masak frettled: I'm sure they'd be happy to receive suggestions.
13:12 frettled I'm not a Ruby programmer, so I haven't used this framework.
13:12 frettled masak: I'd much rather be involved in how this is solved for a new Perl-ish database framework.  :D
13:12 masak help willingly accepted. :)
13:12 frettled :)
13:24 cognominal rakudo :  say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[0].^methods >>~>> ', '
13:24 cognominal rakudo:  say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[0].^methods >>~>> ', '
13:24 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«accessor, readonly, build, rw, name, type, ceiling, p5chomp, 1, pairs, 1, 1, comb, unpolar, ord, chop, 1, 1, roots, uc, reverse, keys, isa, ucfirst, 1, cos, fmt, bytes, pick, 1, join, trim, chr, floor, rand, 1, 1, round, 1, 1, split, 1, grep, words, values, can, lcfirst, 1,
13:24 p6eval ..srand, …
13:24 cognominal rakudo:  say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[0].^methods
13:24 p6eval rakudo 09b954:
13:24 p6eval ..OUTPUT«readonlybuildrwnametypeaccessorroundchop​splitmatchwordscanlcfirstucsrandComplexkeysmappol​arcislogsubstrminmaxpickfirstevalfiletranssinIntj​oinsubstabselemsendchompindexceilingtrimp5chomppa​irsunpolarordrandtruncatesortsqrtrindexintgrepval​uescharsrootsreverseisaucfirstkvsamecasecoscap…
13:25 cognominal where the 1 are commong from?
13:25 frettled rakudo: say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[0].^methods.perl
13:25 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«[{ ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ...
13:25 p6eval ..}, { …
13:27 JimmyZ rakudo: ( * * * * * * * / * % * * * - * - * + * * * * * * * * * )(25).say;
13:27 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«9765575␤»
13:28 cognominal it seems they are from the methods specific to attributes
13:28 frettled hmm
13:28 cognominal nope
13:29 kidd_ joined #perl6
13:30 frettled Later in the sequence I get:
13:30 frettled Array, , hash, Iterator, new, print, say, WALK, defined, Str, bless, WHENCE, WHERE, eigenstates, , true, Hash
13:30 frettled and a bit earlier:
13:30 frettled join, 2, 1, 1, 1, end, 1, ceiling, trim, p5chomp
13:32 masak it's just the methods on Any, no?
13:33 cognominal how to do symetric difference on the keys of hash
13:37 masak cognominal: like this:
13:37 masak rakudo: my %a = foo => 1, bar => 2; my %b = bar => 3, baz => 4; my @sym-diff = grep { %a.exists($_) xor %b.exists($_) }, %a.keys, %b.keys; say @sym-diff.perl
13:37 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«["foo", "baz"]␤»
13:37 masak voila, a legitimate use of 'xor'. :)
13:42 cognominal no way to golf that?
13:43 masak cognominal: define an operator?
13:46 masak rakudo: my %a = foo => 1, bar => 2; my %b = bar => 3, baz => 4; say (%a.keys.grep({%b.exists($_)}), %b.keys.grep({%a.exists($_)})).perl
13:46 p6eval rakudo 09b954:  ( no output )
13:46 masak that works too. but not as elegant, if you ask me.
13:46 cognominal indeed
13:46 masak bit of a structural repetition.
13:46 jnthn lolitsmasak
13:46 jnthn :-)
13:47 masak jnthn! \o/
13:47 jnthn oh hai...oh gozimas.
13:47 masak jnthn: so, when's the nearest Rakudo Day?
13:47 jnthn ouch :-)
13:47 frettled hihi
13:48 masak or are you strictly on vacation?
13:48 frettled masak: perhaps we should start requesting Rakudo Week and Rakudo Month!
13:48 masak April will be Rakudo month, I think. :)
13:48 cognominal say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[*].^methods.sort()
13:48 cognominal rakudo: say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[*].^methods.sort()
13:48 jnthn Strictly as in, I'll happily check in on #perl6, may even make the odd commit, but I don't expect I'll make a straight day of hacking time.
13:48 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'␤in Main (/tmp/4AccdZOLAN:2)␤»
13:49 jnthn Provided the grant gets the go-ahead though, I'll be back with a vengence in October. :-)
13:49 masak sounds like a plan.
13:49 cognominal I can't way for full signatures :)
13:50 jnthn I usually spend a month in autumn wandering around somewhere. Last year it was Russia.
13:50 jnthn Was kinda funny flying here, watching on the map and seeing all the places dotted along the trans-sib than I'd been do...apart from the distance between them flying was an hour, rather than a day on the train. ;-)
13:50 jnthn s/than/that/
13:50 PacoLinux joined #perl6
13:51 cognominal jnthn, have fun in japan
13:51 payload joined #perl6
13:51 jnthn cognominal: Thanks, it's not hard to. ;-)
13:52 jnthn Tokyo is a pretty cool city. Discovered the bay area today. Really nice area to relax and walk by the sa.
13:52 jnthn *sea
13:53 pmurias joined #perl6
13:54 jnthn masak: Were you asking about Rakudo day because there was a specific thingy needing attention, btw?
13:55 jnthn masak: If so, I can surely squeeze in some hacking time during YAPC::Asia.
13:56 cognominal hum, is it possible to hyperoperate on a method? like :
13:56 cognominal rakudo ( 0, 1 ) >> .WHAT
13:56 cognominal rakudo: ( 0, 1 ) >> .WHAT
13:56 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near ">> .WHAT"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
13:57 jnthn yes
13:57 jnthn though .WHAT is a macro so bad example. ;-)
13:57 jnthn rakudo: (-1, -2, -3)>>.abs.perl.say
13:58 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤»
14:03 cognominal hum, what about the failing sort?
14:04 jnthn .oO( fail sort wasn't in Knuth's algo book )
14:04 jnthn cognominal: Failing sort?
14:04 jnthn oh, I see it
14:04 jnthn heh
14:05 jnthn I'm not sure what trying to sort objects generally means.
14:05 pmurias OT: what's a good large font supporting terminal?
14:05 Matt-W for?
14:06 jnthn say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[*].^methods.sort(*.name)
14:06 jnthn rakudo: say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[*].^methods.sort(*.name)
14:06 ruoso pmurias, xterm huge fonts are quite  big
14:06 p6eval rakudo 09b954:
14:06 p6eval ..OUTPUT«:d:e:fACCEPTSArrayBUILDBUILDALLCREATECom​plexHashIntIteratorIteratorPARROTREJECTSScalarSca​larStrStrWALKWHENCEWHEREWHICHabsblessbytescancapi​talizeceilingcharschompchopchrcisclonecombcosdefi​neddoeseigenstateselemselemsendevalfilefirstflipf​loorfmtfmtgrephashindexintisaitemitemiteratori…
14:06 vmbrasseur_ left #perl6
14:08 cognominal say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[*].^methods.sort(*.name)  >>~>> ', '
14:08 cognominal rakudo: say (class { has $.a }).new.^attributes[*].^methods.sort(*.name)  >>~>> ', '
14:08 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«, , 1, 1, 1, ACCEPTS, Array, BUILD, BUILDALL, CREATE, 1, Hash, 1, Iterator, Iterator, PARROT, REJECTS, Scalar, Scalar, Str, Str, WALK, WHENCE, WHERE, WHICH, 1, bless, bytes, can, capitalize, ceiling, 1, 1, chop, chr, cis, clone, comb, cos, defined, does, eigenstates, elems, 1,
14:08 p6eval ..end,…
14:16 ejs joined #perl6
14:20 jnthn rakudo: say 3 ~~ 1..10;
14:20 p6eval rakudo 09b954: OUTPUT«1␤»
14:20 azawawi joined #perl6
14:24 azawawi moritz_: ping
14:24 phenny azawawi: 30 Aug 18:43Z <moritz_> tell azawawi I installed sbcl on feather
14:24 moritz_ azawawi: pong
14:25 azawawi moritz_: what files are needed for a minimal rakudo PDX build?
14:25 sharada joined #perl6
14:26 moritz_ azawawi: bascially all of the rakudo repo, except docs/, README, LICENSE etc.
14:26 moritz_ maybe you can also leave out tools/
14:28 azawawi moritz_: what about the stuff in parrot directory?
14:29 azawawi moritz_: or parrot_install i.e.
14:29 M_o_C joined #perl6
14:29 moritz_ azawawi: it needs an installed parrot.
14:29 moritz_ (including install-dev, as documented in the README)
14:34 azawawi moritz_: so i tried this... http://gist.github.com/182392
14:35 moritz_ well, you can easily test if it builds
14:38 azawawi moritz_: thx :)
14:38 moritz_ azawawi: and it makes sense to include Test.pm and lib/Safe.pm
14:39 azawawi moritz_: will do...
14:40 moritz_ is there a good reason to strive for such minimalism?
14:41 moritz_ (also note that it's illegal to distribute such a copy without the LICENSE file)
14:41 avar what people are working on the sbcl bootstrapping now?
14:41 moritz_ (iirc)
14:41 moritz_ avar: flavio glock bootstrapped mp6 on sbcl
14:42 avar ah
14:42 avar Yeah I read that. I was just wondering because when I last checked he was working on bootstrapping kp6
14:43 pmurias kp6 was bootstraped on p5 but it turned too slow
14:43 moritz_ which is why smop started, no?
14:44 pmurias yes
14:45 azawawi moritz_: the idea is include a minimal six in "almost six" strawberry
14:46 azawawi moritz_: but i agree with you that minimalism does make sense a lot. I will investigate it keeping most of the stuff...
14:48 azawawi moritz_: s/does/does not/
14:51 masak jnthn: I was asking about Rakudo Day because I like Rakudo Days. :)
14:51 masak I have no current pressing issue that needs fixing.
14:52 pmurias azawawi: what does a PDX build mean?
14:52 moritz_ PDX = code name of last release of Rakudo
14:52 TimToady PDX is the Portland release
14:52 pmurias ruoso: where should we keep C smopp5 tests?
14:53 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:53 Psyche^ joined #perl6
14:55 avar pmurias: Does bootstrapping mp6 help with that? Won't it be as slow as kp6 once it has the same featureset?
14:56 jnthn masak: Ah, cool. :-)
14:56 avar And wasn't the reason it was slow due to it not having any optimization at all and not something to do with the bootstrap process as such?
14:56 sevvie joined #perl6
14:57 pmichaud Good morning, #perl6
14:57 masak though I suddenly feel like traversing RT and putting together a list of bugs that absolutely, definitely must be fixed by Q2 2010.
14:57 masak pmichaud: o/
14:57 pmurias avar: the reason kp6 was slow was because it layered an object system on top of perl5
14:57 sevvie joined #perl6
14:57 jnthn oh hai pmichaud
14:57 jnthn masak: That wouldn't be a bad idea.
14:58 TimToady _____________ <- puddle of morning TimToady greets pmichaud++
14:58 masak so we're seeing the puddle sideways on?
14:59 TimToady ___
14:59 masak :P
14:59 pmurias avar: lisp is supposed to be much faster then perl5 isn't it?
14:59 TimToady lisp is supposed to be much better than every other language in every way
15:00 hanekomu ostensibly, yes
15:00 pmichaud lisp is even better than lisp :)
15:00 moritz_ except when you could low number of parenthesis as a plus
15:00 TimToady you can say that again
15:00 carlin http://xkcd.com/224/
15:00 hanekomu http://xkcd.com/224/
15:00 hanekomu jinx :)
15:00 moritz_ you can call that URL a buzzword :-)
15:00 * pmichaud reads backscroll
15:01 hanekomu moritz_: is that like communicating jokes in numbers?
15:01 hanekomu A: "224" B: erupts in laughter.
15:01 * TimToady attempts to backlog, wondering if it will take all day as usual
15:02 * moritz_ would be happy if pmichaud and/or TimToady could review his last S12 change for sanity
15:02 moritz_ or jnthn, if he's about
15:02 TimToady C: "224" <silence>
15:02 hanekomu A: "you didn't tell it right"
15:02 TimToady D: "some people can tell 'em, and some people can't"
15:02 hanekomu :)
15:02 patspam joined #perl6
15:02 frew__ joined #perl6
15:03 hanekomu I'm sure you could work that into one of your talks about shared culture
15:03 carlin C: 224  D: Sorry, net is down
15:03 avar pmurias: Yes Common Lisp implementations have C-like speeds. But when I last looked at (and worked on) mp6/kp6 compiler output it had a bunch of things that made it fantastically slow compared to native code that does the same thing
15:04 avar pmurias: You end up loading and compiling 5000 lines of generated code, constructing Str objects and IO stuff just to do the equivalent of (format t "hello world")
15:04 avar The workaround is an optimizing compiler, but those are hard :)
15:05 patspam joined #perl6
15:05 avar But yes, all other things being equal generating craptastic code in Common Lisp is probably going to be faster than generated Perl code for the same reason that generated C code is faster than generated Perl code.
15:06 jnthn moritz_: Hmm.
15:07 jnthn I guess that means a "..." in a class body implies an augment the next time we see the class.
15:07 moritz_ yes
15:07 pmichaud would it have to be within the same scope ?
15:08 pmichaud (fsvo "scope")
15:08 cmv joined #perl6
15:08 TimToady augment must be able to see the existing name
15:09 TimToady one of the reasons it's a different declarator, since name search can go outside current scope
15:09 pmichaud class A { has $.x; ... };  module B {  class A { has $.y; } }
15:09 azawawi TimToady: I noticed a couple of duplicated 'our' variables in STD.pmc. http://gist.github.com/182405
15:09 TimToady well, there's a problem there, I think
15:09 TimToady std: class A { has $.x; ... };  module B {  class A { has $.y; } }
15:10 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
15:10 moritz_ pmichaud: wouldn't that declare B::A in the secodn case?
15:10 pmichaud moritz_: I'm fine with that, I'm illustrating my question about "scope"
15:10 pmichaud also, since it's exception based, could we end up with...
15:10 TimToady seems like it should have conflicted in GLOBAL::A, but I guess the second is GLOBAL::B::A
15:11 nihiliad joined #perl6
15:11 pmichaud class A { has $.x; { ... } };   class A { has $.y; }
15:11 TimToady std: class A { has $.x; ... };  module B { augment class A { has $.y; } }
15:11 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
15:12 TimToady in this case we're augmenting the outer class A
15:12 pmichaud also, what happens with something like:
15:13 pmichaud class A { has $.x;  ...;   has $.y; };   class A { has $.z; }    # :-)
15:13 jnthn :-P
15:13 TimToady std: class A { has $.x;  ...;   has $.y; };   class A { has $.z; }    # :-)
15:13 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of package symbol A at /tmp/OBUoDLint3 line 1:␤------> [32m{ has $.x;  ...;   has $.y; };   class A[33m⏏[31m { has $.z; }    # :-)[0m␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
15:14 pmichaud hmmm
15:14 pmichaud that might in itself be an argument against an exception-based model.... a parser can only correctly parse by executing the class blocks
15:15 TimToady std: multi class A { has $.x; has $.y; };  multi class A { has $.z; }
15:15 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Malformed block at /tmp/y2RcIGTnOG line 1:␤------> [32mmulti class [33m⏏[31mA { has $.x; has $.y; };  multi class A [0m␤    expecting any of:␤      block␤  routine_def␤        terminator␤     trait␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
15:16 jnthn .
15:16 * jnthn is tired
15:16 jnthn sleep time for me
15:18 jnthn o/
15:18 TimToady g'night
15:19 pmurias avar: if you have a bootstrapped compiler you are forced to keep the speed vaguely decent
15:19 TimToady pmichaud: how the the parse depend on execution?
15:20 * moritz_ also doesn't see the problem
15:20 TimToady STD parses without execution currently
15:20 avar pmurias: just execute and go for tea!
15:20 pmichaud (long answer)
15:21 moritz_ TDD - tea driven development
15:21 TimToady and I'd argue that the 'class {...}' form means that class bodies shouldn't execute till composition time anyway, maybe
15:21 masak I think I can close this one http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=57336
15:21 pmichaud in general, we're trying to allow a partial definition of a class
15:21 masak does anyone else agree?
15:22 TimToady not sure ... is the right tool for partial definition
15:22 pmichaud i.e., we want to be able to do:     class A { ... };   class B { #`(code that depends on A being a class) };   class A { #`(full definition of class A) };
15:22 TimToady I'd say 'replacement definition of class A' there
15:22 pmichaud however, as STD.pm just showed,  the second "class A" thinks it's an illegal class redeclaration
15:23 pmichaud and according to what was checked in to S12, the way that the compiler knows that the second class A is not illegal is because the first class A threw an exception
15:23 TimToady STD doesn't handle ... yet
15:23 masak doesn't handle what yet? :P
15:23 pmichaud from S12:
15:23 pmichaud +If the class body throws an exception from a literal C<...> (yada) term,
15:23 pmichaud +the class defintion is considered incomplete, and a second definition of
15:23 pmichaud +that class does not complain, so you can write
15:23 TimToady yes, but I didn't write that part :)
15:24 pmichaud right; I'm commenting with respect to moritz++'s commit
15:24 moritz_ pmichaud: I still don't see where the problem is - the first class defintion of A is executed at compile time
15:24 pmichaud as written, it would imply (to me) that a parser could only correctly parse by executing the class block to see if the class body throws an exception
15:24 moritz_ pmichaud: ie before class B is even parsed
15:24 pmichaud that's fine with me
15:24 moritz_ pmichaud: it's specced that way anyway
15:25 justatheory joined #perl6
15:25 pmichaud moritz_: I'm not complaining about the fact that class A is executed; I know that.
15:25 TimToady we're trying to avoid unnecessary execution at compile time; the necessary execution is bad enough
15:25 pmichaud moritz_: my point is simply that this definition makes it difficult for STD to do an accurate parse
15:26 TimToady you've basicaly just turned all class defs into BEGIN blocks
15:26 moritz_ TimToady: no, it was like that before
15:26 moritz_ "In either case, the code represented by ... executes at compile time as the body of a method of the metaclass, which is responsible for interpreting the keywords of the class definition."
15:26 moritz_ that's been in there for ages.
15:26 TimToady hmm
15:26 pmichaud this is correct.... I'd *love* to get rid of that, fwiw
15:26 moritz_ and which is what gave me this stupid idea :-)
15:26 TimToady yes, that's a very ancient fossil
15:27 moritz_ anyway, as I noted in the commit message, I'm fine be de-generalizing my last commit
15:27 pmichaud there was also a discussion at NPW as to whether the body of a class should execute at BEGIN, CHECK, or INIT
15:27 moritz_ to just allow class A { ... LIST }
15:27 TimToady or COMPOSE
15:27 moritz_ and nothing else in there
15:28 pmichaud hadn't noticed COMPOSE before :)
15:28 TimToady just naming the time, not proposing a block :)
15:29 masak rakudo: my @a; @a[0] := @a
15:29 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«rtype not set␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
15:30 TimToady we could go so far as to generalize a different direction, and say a statement list ending in a ... statement is appendable to by replacing the ... statement
15:30 pmichaud anyway, moritz's immediate issue is that we'd like to be able to split our settings into separately compiled files, but there are some cross-dependencies whereby we need to be able to tell the compiler e.g. "Rat" is a class without its full definition needing to be available
15:31 TimToady well, either we make 'class Rat {...}' work, or we make 'proto class Rat {}' work
15:32 moritz_ right. And one possible solution is stubbing classes, which was IMHO insufficiently specced
15:32 TimToady it needs a parse def though, not involving execution
15:32 pmichaud I'm fine with either approach; I was expecting 'class Rat {...}' to be largely syntactic-based and not execution based.
15:33 TimToady YACV
15:33 TimToady (context var)
15:33 TimToady ((is one approach))
15:34 TimToady (((doubtless with its own evilness)))
15:34 masak rakudo: grammar A { token ws { 'a' }; rule b {x y}; }; say 'xab' ~~ m/ ^ <a::b> $ /
15:34 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_string()␤in regex PGE::Grammar::_block59 (/tmp/DOwfZrm1dZ:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/DOwfZrm1dZ:2)␤»
15:34 pmichaud A::b, perhaps?
15:34 masak heh, a ticket whose phenotype has actually gotten _worse_ since it was created. :P
15:34 masak hm.
15:35 masak the ticket says a::b.
15:35 masak apparently that's the bug. :)
15:35 pmichaud well since there's no grammar named 'a'....
15:35 TimToady std: grammar A { token ws { 'a' }; rule b {x y}; }; say 'xab' ~~ m/ ^ <a::b> $ /
15:35 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 38m␤»
15:35 TimToady hmm
15:35 eiro T/wg #soul9
15:35 eiro oops sorry
15:35 masak eiro: irssi?
15:35 eiro and hello world
15:35 eiro masak, yes :)
15:36 masak eiro: consider switching to one which induces better habits. :P
15:36 masak those commands doesn't seem nearly out-of-band enough to me.
15:36 TimToady or rewriting irssi to have a sane interface :)
15:36 eiro masak, i'd love to but i failed finding a decent irc client
15:36 moritz_ masak: re RT #57336, I think is OK to close
15:36 masak and it's more or less only irssi (and vim) users who inadvertently contribute to channel noise. :)
15:36 masak moritz_: already did.
15:37 moritz_ TimToady, pmichaud: if we go for a syntax-only solution for stubbing classes, 'proto class A { }' seems cleaner
15:37 azawawi moritz_: perl6.exe (PDX release) failed when run from outside its working directory, please see http://gist.github.com/182416
15:38 moritz_ azawawi: yes, you need to 'make install' it - again please see the README
15:38 eiro masak, how does vim users polute this chan ? (and do you guys have a suggestion about a cool irc client)
15:38 masak eiro: I've been known to do :q on the channel. :)
15:38 masak eiro: ERC is nice, if you like Emacs. which I do.
15:38 moritz_ because it makes it very clear up front that this is a proto definition
15:39 * moritz_ is reasonably happy with vim, enough not to look for alternatives
15:39 azawawi moritz_: :)
15:40 eiro never used emacs as i'm a modal edition addict. thanks anyway
15:40 pmichaud 'proto class A { }' can work, although Rakudo will have difficulty implementing it until we get contextuals in NQP and PGE
15:40 pmichaud (same problem as 'is also'/'augment')
15:41 TimToady except 'proto' implies *multiple* extra definitions
15:41 pmichaud there is that.
15:41 TimToady but ... only implies one
15:41 TimToady and people will expecte ... to work anyway
15:42 TimToady *expect
15:42 avar eiro: Let me get this right. You don't want to use Emacs because you prefer to work in many different modes ?:) (slight troll)
15:42 avar (the joke being that emacs has like 2000 modes by default and you can make it modal 'ala vi if you want)
15:43 TimToady I don't use emacs because it gives me arthritis in me pinky
15:43 avar TimToady: Have you setxkbmap -option ctrl:swapcaps ?
15:43 eiro avar, i'm too lazy to explore but i would be happy to see any demo/screencast
15:43 masak I'm confused by http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=61566
15:43 masak the error is gone, but the issue should remain.
15:44 TimToady avar: not exactly
15:44 avar It's recommended if you use Emacs so that every command doesn't require some sort of vulcan death grip
15:44 pmichaud masak: I'm not sure what's confusing you there
15:44 avar Keyboards used to have control where caps lock is now until MSFT screwed things up.
15:44 masak pmichaud: that the binding of the 1 to the @a succeeds.
15:45 pmichaud that's a rakudobug, yes.
15:45 masak pmichaud: we argue in the bug report that it shouldn't.
15:45 masak oh, good.
15:45 pmichaud I didn't read it that way
15:45 TimToady avar: I don't swap 'em--I destroy CAPSLOCK entirely and make 'em both control
15:45 pmichaud <pmichaud> you should get a "Int does not do Positional role"
15:45 pmichaud exception or something like that.
15:45 pmichaud (from the ticket)
15:45 masak right.
15:45 masak I'm reading sloppily. :/
15:46 pmichaud I suspect I can even fix that bug today.  :)
15:46 avar TimToady: I WOULD DO THAT EXCEPT I FIND CAPS LOCK HELPFUL FOR YELLING
15:46 TimToady but there are still far too many ^X thingies
15:46 azawawi moritz_: Thanks for your help :)
15:46 pmichaud I wonder how many times I've intentionally hit the "caps lock" key on this keyboard.  I suspect the number is surprisingly close to zero.
15:47 pmurias TimToady: that's the better way of doing things ;)
15:47 pmurias btw shouldn't you remap caps lock to escape?
15:47 TimToady hey, I used to *hack* on Gosling's emacs, so it's not like I'm unaware of the interface :)
15:48 moritz_ pmichaud: which is why I bound my capslock key to ESC, which is nice for vim users :-)
15:49 TimToady I've used so many different keyboards with strange ESC keys that I've learned to type ^[ instead
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15:53 masak rakudo: my $t = 5; say $t\i
15:53 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "\\i"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
15:53 pmichaud std: my $t = 5;  say $t\i   # checking
15:53 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
15:56 TimToady yes, there is no .i method anymore
15:56 masak the ticket said as much.
15:57 masak hm, looking at http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=62900 , I don't actually know what "doing it right" would entail.
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15:57 pmichaud rakudo:  my $t = 5;  say $t\++;  say $t;
15:57 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near "\\++;  say "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
15:57 pmichaud std:  my $t = 5;  say $t\++;  say $t; # checking
15:57 p6eval std 28196: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 38m␤»
15:58 TimToady just considered a degenerate case of unspace
15:58 pmichaud right
15:59 moritz_ rakudo: say %*ENV\ <PATH>
15:59 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games␤»
15:59 moritz_ rakudo: say %*ENV\<PATH>
15:59 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games␤»
15:59 * moritz_ suspects that the i is just not parsed as a postfix, but as part of term
16:00 TimToady STD has in its POST rule: [ <.unsp> | '\\' ]?
16:00 pmichaud rakudo has that also
16:00 masak rakudo: sub s {}; s
16:00 pmichaud but part of the difference is that rakudo's postfix is handled differently
16:01 p6eval rakudo 205733: OUTPUT«s/// not implemented, try .subst as workaround at line 2, near ""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
16:01 masak o_0
16:01 masak moritz_: what's the meaning of this? :P
16:01 TimToady he wants you to translate to Sweutch, I guess
16:02 pmichaud anyway, we probably can't fix the postfix handling in rakudo until we have protoregexes
16:02 moritz_ masak: of what? bug!
16:02 * masak zubmitz ze bug
16:02 moritz_ std: sub s { }; s
16:02 p6eval std 28196:  ( no output )
16:03 moritz_ rakudo: sub s-expr { }; s-expr
16:03 p6eval rakudo 205733:  ( no output )
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16:10 masak heading to the store now. I'm on page 3 of 10 in RT, and have already built up quite a list. this will be interesting.
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17:20 azawawi hi
17:30 pugs_svn r28197 | moritz++ | [S12] undo '...' semantics in class bodies.
17:30 pugs_svn r28197 |
17:30 pugs_svn r28197 | Now only a single ... term in the classes marks that class as a forward
17:30 pugs_svn r28197 | declaration, making it a declaration.
17:30 pmichaud moritz++
17:31 pmichaud I might be able to add this a bit later
17:32 moritz_ that would really be great
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17:38 moritz_ masak++ # Cheese speleology
17:38 dalek rakudo: e2eaf33 | pmichaud++ | src/builtins/globals.pir:
17:38 dalek rakudo: Remove contextual fallback to %*ENV (as per r28193).
17:38 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​2eaf3371e93abd20c1a7b82bba6b3410eb128b8
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17:39 moritz_ pmichaud: should I remove that from the spectests too?
17:39 moritz_ or did you already do that?
17:42 pmichaud I did a spectest run after removing it and everything passed
17:42 pmichaud so I guess it's already been done
17:43 moritz_ not quite ;-)
17:43 pugs_svn r28198 | moritz++ | [t/spec] remove %*ENV fallback from contextual variables (as per r28193)
17:44 pmichaud oh!  that file isn't in spectest.data
17:44 pmichaud it probably should be, now :)
17:44 moritz_ it was passing before, too (I think)
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17:45 pmichaud I'll let you add it to spectest.data :)
17:45 moritz_ ok
17:47 moritz_ done
17:48 pmichaud git push
17:48 pmichaud perl tools/progress-graph.pl
17:48 pmichaud rsync -auv rakudo-tests-* pmichaud.com:www/perl6
17:48 pmichaud oops, wrong window
17:49 pmichaud we need to come up with a better mechanism for estimating the size of the spectest suite.... or we need to stop generating reports that depend on knowing the size of the suite
17:49 pmichaud (or we need to get rid of the 'plan *' lines)
17:50 dalek rakudo: 8d5a40a | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
17:50 dalek rakudo: add contextual.t to spectest.data, pmichaud++
17:50 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​d5a40adf46e318490e4bec6ffa4bb16f70e9931
17:50 dalek rakudo: c1d96ce | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
17:50 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 435 files, 14255 pass, 0 fail
17:50 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​1d96ceeb33539be5f007431d3e396040135e7af
17:50 moritz_ pmichaud: a good approach would be to only estimate them with ack when rakudo can't run them
17:52 pmichaud where 'estimate them' is a sequence of (1) check for a plan line with a numeric value, (2) if no such plan line exists, count the number of calls to is/ok/isa_ok/etc. ?
17:52 moritz_ (1) would be a very good start already
17:52 pmichaud well, that's what currently happens
17:52 moritz_ the number of test files that rakudo can't and that uses 'plan *' is not large
17:52 pmichaud we're running into issues with the 'plan *' lines
17:53 pugs_svn r28199 | lwall++ | [S10] specify time of execution of package blocks and module (non)mainline code
17:53 pugs_svn r28199 | [S12] give example of use of yada classes
17:53 moritz_ pmichaud: aren't we always using (1) right now, even if rakudo can run it?
17:54 pmichaud moritz_: we might be, although my test_summary.pl script was also counting the number of tests rakudo actually ran.  I think mberends++ might've removed that, though
17:55 Tene phenny: tell masak I very much plan to change that.  I'm very much not done with it yet.
17:55 phenny Tene: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
17:55 phenny Tene: 12:26Z <masak> tell Tene um, it's kinda crippling that one has to sit in the same directory as SQLite3.pir... any plans to change that?
17:56 Tene .u €
17:56 phenny U+20AC EURO SIGN (€)
17:56 Tene Whiteknight: you can ask phenny in here
17:57 moritz_ phenny++
17:57 moritz_ I like here more with each day
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17:58 TimToady rakudo: BEGIN our $answer = 42; say $answer
17:58 p6eval rakudo 8d5a40: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub BEGIN␤»
17:59 TimToady std: BEGIN our $answer = 42; say $answer
17:59 p6eval std 28199: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
17:59 Matt-W Does that BEGIN only affect the 'our $answer = 42' ?
18:00 azawawi moritz_: is perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-prefix=myfolder a supported way of installing parrot/perl6 to myfolder?
18:00 pmichaud azawawi: yes.
18:01 azawawi pmichaud: it dies here
18:01 azawawi pmichaud: on PDX
18:01 pmichaud dies with what?
18:01 azawawi pmichaud: let me clean and try again...
18:02 pmichaud it might want a full path for --gen-parrot-prefix
18:02 pmichaud actually, I suspect that's the issue
18:02 TimToady Matt-W: yes, it's a statement_prefix in STD
18:03 azawawi pmichaud: in my case we used to install six on c:\strawberry\six
18:03 TimToady but what I'm really wondering about right now if the fact that 'our' defines its init to run at INIT
18:03 TimToady time
18:03 Matt-W TimToady: I didn't know about that, that's cool.
18:03 TimToady which is after the BEGIN, which is a problem
18:03 Matt-W oh
18:03 pugs_svn r28200 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test context vars in private and public class and instance methods
18:04 azawawi TimToady: any idea why we have a $DEBUG, $endsym and $SCOPE defined twice in STD.pmc?
18:04 TimToady It might have to be modified to 'at INIT time, but no later than execution time of the 'our'
18:04 Matt-W can BEGIN blocks have their own INIT blocks and their own INIT time? or would that just be too confusing?
18:05 TimToady azawawi: probably to keep perl 5 from getting confused, since it's emulating context vars with local
18:05 TimToady or there's an extra declaration in there to keep someone from complaining about somethign undefined somewhere :)
18:05 moritz_ Matt-W: I think they can
18:05 TimToady is my recollection
18:05 pmichaud azawawi: yes, --gen-parrot-prefix wants a full pathname, or at least something that isn't ambiguous (more)
18:06 pmichaud if one just does  --gen-parrot-prefix=myfolder it gets installed to parrot/myfolder on my system
18:07 azawawi pmichaud: http://gist.github.com/182488
18:07 TimToady moritz_: in fact, in your blog yesterday you had: BEGIN { @*INC.push: 'src/svg/lib' }
18:07 TimToady and that could lose the {} someday
18:07 TimToady well, if you add ; at the end
18:07 pmichaud azawawi: yes, that's exactly what I got
18:07 moritz_ TimToady: I know, but I currently like to blog about code that actually runs ;-)
18:07 TimToady std: BEGIN @*INC.push: 'src/svg/lib';
18:07 p6eval std 28199: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 37m␤»
18:07 pmichaud parrot installed to parrot/myfolder/, but rakudo is looking in myfolder/
18:08 TimToady nodnod, wasn't suggesting otherwise
18:08 Matt-W TimToady: that is nice
18:08 TimToady why I said "someday" :)
18:08 moritz_ sure
18:11 azawawi pmichaud: failed again with full path (win32)
18:12 pmichaud azawawi: oh, I see the problem.  Configure.pl doesn't understand its own prefix
18:12 pmichaud looks like it would have to be --gen-parrot-prefix=<path>  --parrot-config=<path>/bin/parrot_config
18:12 pmichaud Configure.pl:40 should be fixed to be smarter about that
18:13 M_o_C Configure.pl doesn't understand its own prefix <-- Configure.pl prefix = Perl 6 prefix which is not neccessary Parrot prefix...
18:13 M_o_C So it shouldn't be fixed but improved :)
18:13 moritz_ pmichaud: I can take a look at that iin a few minutes
18:14 pmichaud moritz_: that would be great.  For now, I'd simply say that if --gen-parrot-prefix is supplied we use use it instead of parrot_install/bin/parrot_config
18:14 pmichaud (on line 41)
18:15 M_o_C Meh, sorry, I just realised I typed quicker than I could think.
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18:16 * azawawi tries it
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18:21 moritz_ I think I have a fix for --gen-parrot-prefix, testing it now
18:26 finanalyst pmichaud: two questions, please. why does the total number of tests on the rakudo page fall? And how much of the do-not-work will be resolved by rakudo star?
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18:26 pmichaud finanalyst: total number of tests fall because (1) the spec has changed such that some tests are eliminated, and (2) we don't have an accurate mechanism for counting tests
18:26 moritz_ (2) is a much larger effect than (1) at the moment, though
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18:27 pmichaud in the case of #2, some of the tests' "plan 123;"  lines have changed to read "plan *;", and the script that calculates the total number of spectests doesn't know what to do with "plan *;"
18:27 finanalyst ah
18:27 pmichaud as far as how much of the do-not-work will be resolved by Rakudo star, I can't definitively answer that until it's actually released :)
18:27 azawawi TimToady: Can u please take a look at this http://gist.github.com/182503 ?
18:28 pmichaud however, the items tagged with "1" at the bottom of docs/ROADMAP are all intended to be fixed by the Rakudo Star release.
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18:28 finanalyst what is the point of plan *? Isnt part of having a plan to do with a testable number of tests?
18:29 pmichaud my overall intention at this point is that Rakudo Star gets released in April 2010 "no matter what".  If that means that some features aren't quite implemented, I think we can still have a "usable release".
18:30 pmichaud i.e., I'm becoming more and more a believer that it's better to say "we're releasing on date YYYY-MM" than to say "the next release will absolutely have features A, B, C, ..., and Z"
18:30 pmichaud especially if we adopt a "release often" philosophy
18:31 pmichaud (all of this sounds worthy of a blog post, I guess)
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18:32 moritz_ while writing my commit message I figured that what I planned to do was not what I had done. Back to hacking and testing...
18:32 moritz_ I love writing of commit messages
18:32 masak writing of commit messages loves you!
18:32 phenny masak: 17:55Z <Tene> tell masak I very much plan to change that.  I'm very much not done with it yet.
18:32 moritz_ it forces you to recap what you did
18:32 masak Tene: nod.
18:33 pugs_svn r28201 | lwall++ | [S06] remove the slightly non-sensical 'use GLOBAL' in favor of 'defines'
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18:33 azawawi pmichaud: it worked with C:\strawberry\six>perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-prefix=c:\strawberry\six\myfolder --parrot-config=c:\strawberry\si​x\myfolder\bin\parrot_config.exe
18:34 pmichaud azawawi: excellent.  That will continue to work, but we'll also fix it so that the --parrot-config option isn't necessary if --gen-parrot-prefix is specified.
18:34 moritz_ aye, I have a patch for that
18:34 moritz_ testing as we speak
18:35 pmichaud afk, errands
18:35 M_o_C Hm... So it seems like RT#68746 only occurs on my system...
18:35 finanalyst pmichaud: what governs the priorities of features, viz. which bits of rakudo get implimented first?
18:36 pmichaud finanalyst: bigger itches get scratched first :)
18:36 pmichaud finanalyst: if you're looking for a definitive formula, there isn't one.
18:37 finanalyst no not a formula. just i've been waiting for variables in regexen for a while
18:37 finanalyst and its been on the todo
18:37 finanalyst just trying to work out when it'll get done
18:37 * moritz_ hops that this will fall out of the PGE refactors pretty easily
18:37 finanalyst without annoying anyone
18:37 azawawi pmichaud: thanks... building PDX as we speak... wonderful job on separating them, pmichaud++, moritz_++
18:38 dalek rakudo: 6b22b9d | moritz++ | Configure.pl:
18:38 dalek rakudo: when --gen-parrot-prefix is passed along, we should also search in that path for parrot_config
18:38 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​b22b9dfb9e31e72845f2c68af6a9356d019e721
18:38 dalek rakudo: 446d49f | moritz++ | :
18:38 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
18:38 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​46d49f4cae7d88b84c42d5c83df75bc0e3edde8
18:38 pmichaud finanalyst: that will happen sooner rather than later
18:38 M_o_C Plus it probably would make more sense to say "which bits of Perl 6 will be implemented soon" as you can already use Rakudo.
18:38 pmichaud being able to get variables to work in regexes was blocking on getting lexicals to work in parrot
18:39 pmichaud and that didn't really happen until last November
18:39 pmichaud but it also requires a significant PGE refactor
18:39 pmichaud because PGE doesn't really understand regexes embedded in lexical scopes just yet
18:40 pmichaud anyway, I would expect variables to work in regexes by about the October 2009 release.
18:40 pmichaud (it might happen for the September 2009 release, but that's a little less likely)
18:40 finanalyst how easy would it be to create a gantt graph, showing which features are dependent on which?
18:41 pmichaud we already have that
18:41 finanalyst oh where?
18:41 pmichaud not as a graph, but a description of what features are blocking on what components
18:41 pmichaud in the ROADMAP
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18:41 pmichaud each item in the roadmap identifies the pieces it's blocking on
18:42 pmichaud 1  * lexical variable lookups in regexes (A)
18:42 pmichaud the (A) indicates it's blocking on the PGE refactor
18:43 finanalyst i am re-reading ROADMAP and can see that now
18:44 pmichaud afk, lunch and then errands
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18:48 pugs_svn r28202 | lwall++ | [gimme5] remove dup our declarations for azawawi++
18:48 pugs_svn r28202 | [Test] add testing_done
18:48 TimToady er, done_testing...
18:52 azawawi TimToady: thanks :)
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19:30 pugs_svn r28203 | azawawi++ | [STD] removed duplicated our $DEBUG
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19:42 Tene Aw, ' is only valid in the inside of an identifier.
19:42 Tene not at the end
19:42 Tene so I can't say $a' = f($a);
19:43 moritz_ correct
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19:48 sharada :(
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20:02 PhatEddy buubot: print "test\n"
20:02 buubot PhatEddy: Couldn't match input.
20:03 sharada buubot: print "Couldn't match input."
20:03 buubot sharada: Couldn't match input.
20:03 moritz_ sharada++
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20:07 azawawi moritz_: win32's \ in paths confuses mingw32-make when building rakudo with perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot --gen-parrot-prefix=c:\strawberry\six --parrot-config=c:\strawberr​y\six\bin\parrot_config.exe
20:07 azawawi moritz_: it only works when you use / instead of \
20:12 azawawi moritz_: the error is like http://gist.github.com/182542 when you use \ instead of / in paths
20:13 M_o_C azawawi: I already reported that (http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=68746)
20:13 moritz_ it would be nice if one of you windows users could come up with a patch
20:13 moritz_ I can't fix and test it because I have no windows
20:14 azawawi i see...
20:14 azawawi sure i'll give it a try tomorrow
20:15 dukeleto moritz_: do i need to escape colons (:) in pge strings ?
20:15 azawawi moritz_: i see that parrot has its LICENSE included but not rakudo in the final thing
20:15 azawawi moritz_: im going to include parrot/rakudo's CREDITS/LICENSE along with lib/Safe.pm and Test.pm
20:16 azawawi moritz_: it worked! thanks :)
20:16 moritz_ dukeleto: you need to escape everything that's not alphanumeric or an underscore
20:16 moritz_ dukeleto: but you can also quote it with '...' or "..."
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20:16 dukeleto moritz_: touché
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20:18 moritz_ (you could also have a named argument that decides if a matcher should be treated as a string or a regex, and in the former case just use index())
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20:22 mberends phenny, tell pmichaud tools/test_summary.pl now tracks 'plan *;' lines and reports them above the Synopsis subtotals. Currently there are two occurrences (S32-num/rat.t and S32-trig/trig.t) with 740 and 2187 tests in them. All discrepancies between tests planned and run _should_ be logged.
20:22 phenny mberends: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
20:22 phenny mberends: 09:07Z <masak> tell mberends fixed, thanks. strange that the bug is not reproduced, though. I might have to to a full reinstall of those modules.
20:22 mberends oh, good. saw that in backlog :)
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20:23 moritz_ mberends, pmichaud: I have local patches for test_summary.pl that count tests run by rakudo correctly, even if they have a 'plan *'
20:24 moritz_ it just takes ages to test them
20:26 mberends ages have doubled recently. moritz_, we may have done very similar stuff.
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20:29 moritz_ mberends: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86722
20:29 PhatEddy buubot: eval: print "test\n"
20:29 buubot PhatEddy: test 1
20:36 mberends moritz_, our two mods begin the same, then proceed differently, but my way was committed here: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-09-02#i_1456692
20:43 moritz_ mberends: yes, I know that. But unless somebody actually commits these changes they don't correct any statistics
20:43 moritz_ mberends: and I don't think that statistics are good reason to make testing any harder than it needs to be
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20:44 mberends moritz_: I guess colomon++ preferred to stay with 'plan *' until the trig and num tests are closer to stable
20:45 moritz_ mberends: I prefer 'plan *' in a lot of cases. counting tests can be really painful
20:45 mberends *nod
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21:01 pugs_svn r28204 | moritz++ | [t/spec] comment a "plan" inside POD that was confusing some statistics
21:02 moritz_ mberends: turns out my first patch was bogus - the 'plan tests => $numbers' are actually perl 5 left-overs in POD sections
21:03 mberends oh, ok
21:03 moritz_ and one of them was report 16k tests :/
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21:04 mberends moritz_: well caught then!
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21:05 moritz_ it wasn't all that hard, when the number jumped from 17k to 33k - that makes a physicist suspicious ;-)
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21:11 xenoterracide how easy will it be to migrate a perl 5 app to perl6 (generally speaking)? and is there any kind of target date for a full spec implementation of perl6?
21:13 moritz_ if all goes well, you can just leave the application in perl 5, and embed { use v6;  perl 6 code here } blocks
21:13 moritz_ and migrate as gradually as you want
21:13 moritz_ and no, we don't have a fixed date
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21:14 xenoterracide perl6 is supposed to suport perl5 too? or a parrot implemention of perl5 is supposed to be done at the same time? *confused*
21:15 moritz_ xenoterracide: there's a section about that in S01, see http://perlcabal.org/syn/S01.html
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21:20 dalek rakudo: f01875f | moritz++ | tools/test_summary.pl:
21:20 dalek rakudo: [test_summary.pl] if we run a test, use the "plan" information gathered from its output
21:20 dalek rakudo: This should reduce the number of 'plan *' related mis-counts even further.
21:20 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​01875fb6153419f186b167f6c9966bf5c215532
21:21 moritz_ the script now reports 20622 tests in the spectest suite, which seems like a realistic number to me
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21:28 pmichaud agreed, 20622 sounds more correct
21:28 phenny pmichaud: 20:22Z <mberends> tell pmichaud tools/test_summary.pl now tracks 'plan *;' lines and reports them above the Synopsis subtotals. Currently there are two occurrences (S32-num/rat.t and S32-trig/trig.t) with 740 and 2187 tests in them. All discrepancies between tests planned and run _should_ be logged.
21:30 moritz_ I just pushed another proposed release name to github - including an URL of a blog post that tells about a nice hackathon
21:30 moritz_ I think it's a good idea to include some sort of reasons
21:31 pmichaud moritz++  # beat me to it :-)
21:31 moritz_ so that prospective release managers can make a somewhat informed decision and can explain in the release note why they chose it
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21:32 dalek rakudo: 01ae3fa | moritz++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:32 dalek rakudo: [docs] propose ThousandOaks as a release name, in recognition of their cool Perl 6 hackathon
21:32 dalek rakudo: Also remove some trailing whitespaces
21:32 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​1ae3fae981eed2ecd8a75c94a72c119340044cf
21:33 xenoterracide http://rakudo.org/status < so when this page show's green all the way to the top? is the perl 6 spec 100% implemented (in rakudo)?
21:34 pmichaud xenoterracide: no.
21:34 pmichaud xenoterracide: we don't have tests for all of the perl 6 spec yet
21:34 mberends xenoterracide: we still need to write a lot more tests...
21:34 xenoterracide ah
21:34 pmichaud xenoterracide: and the perl 6 spec isn't finished
21:34 xenoterracide ok
21:35 moritz_ oh, and the grey bar is smaller than it should be, because we had problems compiling our data
21:35 pmichaud I think I'll go back and re-run the last month or so with the new test_summary.pl
21:35 pmichaud so we get something a bit more realistic
21:35 pmichaud or I could just do it starting with tonight's run and leave it at that.
21:37 mberends pmichaud: leave it, whoever picks that nit is the volunteer ;)
21:37 moritz_ I'm fine with either approach
21:37 pmichaud well, I might be the one to pick that nit :-)
21:37 pmichaud it's an easy background task for my notebook :)
21:38 * mberends just added Windows 7 next to Ubuntu, to try out Strawberry Perl etc
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21:40 xenoterracide strawberry perl an alternative to ... what is it? active perl?
21:41 moritz_ aye
21:41 xenoterracide hmm... first time hearing about it
21:42 moritz_ it's said to be a bit more friendly if you want to compile and install XS modules
21:43 M_o_C Huh, seems like the test suite was undergoing some refractoring between august and september?
21:44 mberends xenoterracide: the main advantage seems to be built in CPAN support, and a C compiler toolchain. http://strawberryperl.com
21:44 xenoterracide well unfortunately I hadn't heard of it when I had my perl class. and I generally choose not to use windows
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21:46 moritz_ M_o_C: not all that much actually - just colomon adding tons of new trigonometry tests
21:47 M_o_C I was just wondering about that rather big drop.
21:55 moritz_ that was related to the way we declare the number of tests, and aggregate the statistics about it
21:55 moritz_ soon you'll see that number is actually quite a bit higher
21:55 moritz_ (larger then 20k tests)
21:56 moritz_ anyway, bed &
21:56 M_o_C Ah, ok.
21:56 M_o_C Cya
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22:04 japhb pmichaud, NQP request: Can you make it detect use of = instead of := and give a friendly error message?  I keep losing time trying to figure out what's wrong with some complicated statement only to find I just skipped the : .
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22:20 pmichaud japhb: yes, I'd like to add that.
22:20 pmichaud japhb: so will do.
22:20 japhb pmichaud, thanks!
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23:28 zerhash hey TimToady
23:29 zerhash id like to help with perl6
23:30 avar zerhash: what are you interested in working on?
23:32 alester joined #perl6
23:32 zerhash something easyish
23:32 zerhash i am new to this
23:32 zerhash but i do have lots of time on my hands
23:32 zerhash testing may be a good place to start
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23:37 zerhash ya so how do i go about this?
23:39 TimToady first of all, you'll need a pugs commit bit
23:39 TimToady since the tests are stored in the pugs repo
23:40 TimToady if you msg me your email and preferred svn nick, I can send a commit bit
23:40 TimToady use /msg if you don't want to reveal your email to the wide world
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23:42 TimToady a pugs commit bit also gives you the ability to hack on specs, web infrastructure, etc.
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23:59 pugs_svn r28205 | zerhash++ |
23:59 TimToady I see that
23:59 TimToady welcome aboard

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