Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-09-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 ruoso I'm actually not sure it's worth splitting the two objecsts
00:01 TimToady Num is narrower than Rat
00:01 TimToady in terms of precision
00:02 ruoso I was meaning in terms of signature match
00:04 TimToady pragmatically, they should probably be considered equivalent, but useful as tiebreakers
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00:05 * ruoso uses Rat then
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00:29 frew__ pmichaud: ping?
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01:15 pmichaud frew__: pong
01:15 pmichaud oops, I forgot tonight was meeting night (I couldn't have made it anyway -- too many things going on around the house)
01:15 frew__ yeah, I figured that
01:19 zaphar_ps has anyone been able to build recent rakudo on Mac OSX?
01:20 zaphar_ps actually rakudo might build just fine but the parrot revision it has as a dependency is broken
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01:29 colomon zaphar_ps: Yes
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01:29 zaphar_ps yes you have built it or yes it's broken on OSX right now?
01:30 colomon I took this afternoon's Rakudo from github, changed build/PARROT_REVISION to 41159, and then did the standard perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot build process.
01:30 colomon It fails a few spectests, but other than that works okay.
01:30 zaphar_ps ok so that revision builds just fine then?
01:31 colomon Yes, that was the latest Parrot as of earlier today, and it builds just fine.
01:32 zaphar_ps thanks
01:32 colomon You're welcome.
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02:27 pugs_svn r28208 | ruoso++ | [spec-S32-Temporal] Complete rewrite of Temporal.pod taking into account today IRC talks, TAI time, alternative calendars, time-zone information and, most importantly, the perl 5 DateTime API
02:27 ruoso TimToady, ^^
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02:32 pugs_svn r28209 | ruoso++ | [spec-S32-Temporal] minor pod fixes
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02:41 pugs_svn r28210 | ruoso++ | [spec-S32-Temporal] Gregorian::Duration doesnt have a time-zone.
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02:48 PerlJam "most importantly"?
02:48 PerlJam :-)
02:49 jnthn heh
02:51 ruoso PerlJam, ok... maybe I over-stated that ;)
02:52 frew__ wayland76: my roommate says you have a queen
02:52 frew__ that's false right?
02:53 frew__ also there is no Australian SS in charge of books....right?
02:53 PerlJam frew__: The queen of england is Australia's queen too.
02:53 PerlJam (but what do I know?  I'm just an american)
02:53 frew__ srsly?
02:53 PerlJam frew__: last time I checked
02:53 frew__ weird..
02:59 jnthn All your Australia are belong to uk.
02:59 jnthn ;-)
03:00 akl canada's, too
03:00 akl yay for the commonwealth
03:00 mrsaturn http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_Queen_of_England_rule_over_Australia
03:00 mrsaturn is true
03:01 akl I feel like 'kind of' is a better answer to that, but that's nowhere near as conclusive :)
03:02 ruoso as true as any contemporary monarchy can be... at least they share the costs of the people doing nothing ;)
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03:49 wayland76 Yes, the queen is our head of state.  She appoints the governor-general (who is usually recommended by the prime minister at the time)
03:50 wayland76 But just because we have the same queen doesn't mean that the British parliament rules us or anything
03:51 wayland76 Just out of interest, I'm under the impression that the Queen officially becomes a Presbyterian when she crosses into Scotland (could be wrong about this, but it was true at one time)
03:53 wayland76 As for SS in charge of books, that probably depends what SS stands for :)
04:05 wayland76 ruoso / TimToady: I haven't been following the calendar stuff, but I'm hoping it's been discussed with autarch -- his original plan was to make the basic Temporal stuff quite simple, and to leave the more complex stuff up to non-core modules.
04:06 wayland76 Personally, I don't care, but I think he's a good person to have on board for this kind of stuff
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04:12 wayland76 ruoso: The "multi calendartime" etc don't declare a return value -- maybe  multi calendartime($epoch = time(), $calendar = $*CALENDAR, *%options --> DateTimeWhatever)
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04:22 avuserow Hi guys. I'm trying to read in binary data using Rakudo's latest release. lines() says that the :bin flag isn't supported. Do I have any other options?
04:23 TimToady .slurp perhaps
04:25 avuserow hm. slurp doesn't even tell me that :bin isn't supported, but it still complains about malformed UTF-8
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06:29 moritz_ good morning
06:30 moritz_ avuserow: reading in binary isn't implemented in Rakudo yet, sorry
06:31 araujo good local time
06:31 lambdabot araujo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:32 moritz_ good global time ;-)
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06:41 dukeleto good localtime()
06:44 pugs_svn r28211 | moritz++ | [perl6.org] include favicon link in the html
06:46 pugs_svn r28212 | moritz++ | [perl6.org] include type= in the favicon link
06:47 moritz_ somehow my firefox refuses to display the favicon of perl6.org correctly
06:47 moritz_ but it could be just caching
06:47 moritz_ I noticed before that firefox caches the favicon more aggressively than other stuff
06:49 arnsholt Works for me with Opera
06:49 arnsholt (Assuming Camelia is what you want as a favicon =)
06:51 moritz_ it is
06:53 moritz_ speaking of opera - I think I finally found something in SVG that firefox renders better than opera ;-)
06:54 arnsholt Heh
06:56 moritz_ (it's something related to <text> elements and the dominant-baseline attribute - I haven't figured out the details yet)
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07:19 moritz_ rakudo:  ( { say $^x } ).(3)
07:19 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 param expected␤in Main (/tmp/7o0izA2nfH:1)␤»
07:20 moritz_ what's wrong with that? is that closure executed immediately?
07:20 moritz_ rakudo:  ( {;  say $^x } ).(3)
07:20 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«too few arguments passed (0) - 1 param expected␤in Main (/tmp/YX0UXvlC6G:1)␤»
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08:37 masak oh hai
08:37 Matt-W o/ masak
08:37 masak does anyone want to help me draft a reply to this tweeter?: http://twitter.com/mhalligan/status/3857343212
08:38 Matt-W Hmm
08:38 ysth should be a one-liner of some sort
08:38 masak I'm looking for something that acknowledges that he was trying to be funny, yet informs him about the state of affairs.
08:39 Matt-W I assume it needs to fit in a tweet
08:39 masak Matt-W: yes.
08:40 dukeleto masak: #trollhug ?
08:41 masak dukeleto: that's fine, but verging on rude, I think.
08:41 masak note that audreyt++'s hugging technique doesn't outright call the trolls trolls.
08:41 Matt-W Maybe we should produce several replies independently :)
08:42 masak sure, go ahead.
08:42 masak but I think there's a combination of tongue-in-cheek and matter-of-fact that anyone replying to would benefit from including in their reply.
08:42 Matt-W Yes
08:42 Matt-W If I think of something appropriate, I'll do it
08:43 dukeleto the guy seems like he is talking past his abilities
08:43 masak yes.
08:43 masak we all do, at times.
08:43 Matt-W Like a lot of statements about Perl 6, it comes from a lack of knowledge
08:43 masak it's like, the joke is floating around out there, free for exploitation.
08:43 dukeleto indeed, but there is doing it in a negative way, and a positive way
08:44 masak one possible answer would be: "you know, that's not very funny". but chances are he won't see why.
08:44 masak it might even be people have already given him positive feedback on that joke. he's already had one retweet.
08:48 masak how about "hello. if you think that's funny, you might want to check out how far Perl 6 has come at this point" ?
08:49 moritz_ "I wonder where I can download a compiler for santa claus?"
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08:49 moritz_ and then a link to http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
08:50 masak moritz_++
08:51 masak I'll do that one.
08:52 Matt-W Something like "@mhalligan We're working hard to make Perl 6 an everyday reality. Unfortunately, even when the increasingly awesome compiler is finished it won't deliver chocolate, presents or money." possibly
08:53 masak but it will! :)
08:53 Matt-W you can write that module
08:55 masak Chocolate::Presents::Money
08:56 Matt-W I told him that
08:56 Matt-W So you're stuck with it now
08:56 Matt-W :P
08:57 masak that's fine.
08:57 masak I'm glad for this discussion. and for the sudden communal interest in micro-PR.
08:58 Matt-W This is the kind of thing Twitter is so good for
08:58 Matt-W Although he's going to suspect we're conspiring with all the mentions he's going to get
08:58 masak well, we are.
08:58 Matt-W This is true
08:58 Matt-W and there's no point hiding that
08:58 Matt-W need to go now
08:58 Matt-W boring meeting time
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09:02 mberends good TAI-morning
09:03 masak mberends: \o/
09:04 mberends hi masak, there's a bit more settled in proto TODO
09:04 masak goodie.
09:04 masak I'm in the middle of writing up a weeb, so I'm afraid I cannot do more than skim it.
09:04 mberends it's enough for me to start coding
09:05 * masak skims
09:09 mikehh rakudo (62879bb) builds on parrot r41171 - make test / make spectest (up to 28212) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 i386 (g++)
09:09 mikehh rakudo - t/spec/S03-operators/arith.rakudo - TODO passed:   131
09:09 mikehh rakudo - t/spec/S06-multi/proto.rakudo, t/spec/S12-attributes/class.rakudo and t/spec/S14-roles/basic.rakudo - Non-zero wait status: 11 (Segfault after passing tests)
09:10 masak aha. refresh/update. I like.
09:11 mberends masak, if we're "breaking whatever needs to be broken", I'd like to rename config.proto
09:11 mberends *gulp*
09:12 masak why?
09:12 mberends it's very non intuitive (to me). the most intuitive would have been proto.conf
09:13 mberends (principle of least surprise)
09:13 masak config.proto was probably thusly named because I already had deps.proto
09:14 mberends but if you're not keen, we'll leave it
09:14 masak I'm neither keen nor anti-keen, but I don't see an overwhelming need to change it.
09:15 mberends ok, I'll wait another few months ;)
09:15 masak 哈哈
09:15 masak a bigger problem is how to find that file from an arbitrary directory.
09:16 mberends ah
09:16 moritz_ ~/.ecosystem/proto/config ?
09:16 masak moritz_: but ~/.perl6lib (as it's called nowadays) is for modules, not for config files...
09:17 masak might as well put it as ~/.proto.conf, in that case.
09:17 mberends ~/.proto/config
09:17 moritz_ what about a ~/.perl6/ which contains lib/ and other stuff?
09:17 masak mberends: ah, yes. better.
09:17 moritz_ anyway, I should stop bikeshedding :-)
09:18 mberends moritz_: :-) your ideas are always welcome
09:19 masak hehe. "laziness++ ;)" ;)
09:20 mberends we could switch Rakudo to moritz_++'s idea (~/.perl6/lib) now quite trivially, before too much depends on it
09:20 masak fine by me.
09:20 * mberends likes ~/.perl6/lib a lot. moritz_++
09:21 masak mberends: done skimming. kudos on the fine plan.
09:21 masak I have but one remaining concern.
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09:21 masak I'll try to put it into words.
09:22 masak we're setting a bit of a bad precedent here, with this non-root, $HOME-only installation.
09:22 mberends true
09:22 masak the proto philosophy is to do good behind the scenes.
09:22 masak I fear that this might do some harm.
09:23 masak take 'pun' as an example of when the $HOME-only install is not only meaningless, but outright wrong.
09:23 masak pun has no modules, only three script files.
09:23 mberends the "installed rakudo" has another lib/ directory, but installing requires root in  many environments
09:24 masak a 'make install' target (which it currently doesn't have, but it would be a good idea) would put the script files in a /bin directory somewhere.
09:24 moritz_ so you could look in ~/.perl6/proto/config or so if proto is configured for home or global installation
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09:24 masak moritz_: yes.
09:24 masak at least with user accounts configured for 'sudo', it would work.
09:26 moritz_ well, if the user has root privs she can also make the global installation dir writable for her user or group
09:26 moritz_ I think perl 5's CPAN.pm as an 'acquire root' command config
09:26 moritz_ which you can leave empty if you install in ~
09:29 mberends masak, could we run the pun scripts into parrot_install/lib/1.5.0-devel/languages/perl6/ ? that seems to do duty as a kind of installed bin/ directory.
09:30 mberends although it makes no sense to add that dir to $PATH
09:30 masak for pun especially, that would be fitting.
09:30 masak (since pun provides alternative executables)
09:32 mberends the perl6 "executable" is in /home/martin/rakudo/parrot_install/bin though, that would be the $PATH candidate
09:32 mberends sans my name, of course ;)
09:33 * mberends does not like adding directories to PATH
09:35 * mberends does 'sudo ln -s <parrot_install>/bin/perl6 /usr/local/bin' instead
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09:45 mberends ok, the "projects providing executable commands" seems to be orthogonal to module libraries, so it can remain a question to be resolved later. I'd like pmichaud's approval before replacing ~/.perl6lib with ~/.perl6/lib in Rakudo, however, although it looks sane.
09:45 masak ruoso++ # Temporal rewrite
09:46 masak mberends: nod.
09:47 moritz_ mberends: did you ask for approval before adding ~/.perl6lib?
09:47 mberends yes
09:48 mberends nobody uses it yet, so the current impact it nil. It's more a matter of what we live with in future...
09:50 masak right. that path will probably be a lot more long-lived than proto.
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09:59 cognominal what is the difference btetween the Pattern subset and the Matcher role?
10:05 masak cognominal: Pattern seems to be a role, and Matcher a subset.
10:05 Juerd moritz_: http://juerd.nl/i/661a62775d092068f4536c0fe39f8e89.png  feather2 had a high fork rate just before it crashed.
10:06 masak cognominal: but my guess is that one of them could just as well be made to go away.
10:10 cognominal object that do a role are indeed a subset of the class they belong to.
10:10 cognominal *objects
10:14 cognominal Also in
10:14 cognominal our multi method clone (::T $self --> T) {...}
10:14 cognominal our multi method clone (::T $self, *%attributes --> T) {...}
10:15 cognominal the second multi encompasses the first
10:16 cognominal is there a point of having both, it seems that's a pmc implementation detaill  that leaks into Perl 6
10:17 cognominal Anyway, it does not matter much, the neat result is the same
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10:52 moritz_ Juerd: thanks for the info - I'll look into giving stuff stricter resource limits
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11:12 masak Matt-W: *loul* @ TAIME
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11:18 Matt-W masak: eh?
11:18 masak oh, ah. "Wilson", not "Walton". sry. :/
11:18 masak it was a p6l some other Matt just sent.
11:18 Matt-W aaah
11:18 Matt-W okay
11:19 moritz_ masak: that's diakopter then, iirc
11:19 masak by the way, watch as the bikeshedding has started around Temporal again. :/
11:19 masak moritz_: aha, ok.
11:19 Matt-W I prefer not to watch...
11:19 Matt-W I have limited tuits, and diving in is unlikely to expedite the process
11:20 Matt-W Quite the opposite, in fact
11:20 * Matt-W -> lunch &
11:20 moritz_ btw http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/access.svg # updated visitors-per-day statistics from perl6.org
11:21 moritz_ the blog posts, twitters etc. about the new perl6.org layout had caused quite a wave of visitors
11:21 moritz_ (and it's a nice oocasion to show-off SVG::Plot)
11:22 M_o_C Interestingly that post got no comments :o
11:22 masak moritz_: my first impression is that the labels at the bottom are upside-down.
11:24 masak moritz_: probably because they form vertical "rows", and then they should logically have their baseline to the left.
11:24 masak er, to the right.
11:24 moritz_ masak: makes sense - I'll change that
11:25 masak an alternative might be to slant them 45 degrees ccw. but I think just rotating them 180 degrees is better.
11:26 masak moritz_++ # putting SVG graphs to good use
11:27 moritz_ rotating 45 degrees makes exact positioning much harder
11:27 M_o_C I'd also go for a 180° rotation for the time being.
11:28 masak moritz_: true.
11:32 diakopter yah
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11:33 diakopter masak: yeah, me
11:33 diakopter yeah, I, I mean
11:34 masak diakopter: ok. *loul*, then.
11:35 masak diakopter: also, thanks for not choosing a nick starting with the letter "M".
11:36 M_o_C :D
11:37 moritz_ :-)
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12:05 takadonet morning all
12:06 masak takadonet: o/
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12:16 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
12:16 ruoso good morning, pmichaud
12:17 masak morning, pmichaud
12:20 moritz_ oh hai pmichaud
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12:31 Matt-W hai pmichaud
12:31 Matt-W can haz LTM? :P
12:32 pmurias ruoso: hi
12:32 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/access.svg # now with labels rotated the other way round
12:32 masak moritz_++
12:32 ruoso hi pmurias
12:33 moritz_ masak++ for suggesting it
12:33 pugs_svn r28213 | ruoso++ | [spec-S32-Temporal] uses Instant instead of Rat for the return of time(), Allow base Duration type to work with TAI-seconds delegating to Gregorian::Duration otherwise, Add some methods to Gregorian::DateTime to make the distinction of Instant vs DateTime more evident
12:34 masak I see I will have to do some rebasing....
12:34 moritz_ hugme: list projects
12:34 hugme moritz_: I know about these projects: json, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte
12:36 ruoso masak, see my last commit on Temporal.pm. It should clarify things regarding your comments on the list
12:36 masak ruoso: yes. I see it does.
12:37 masak ruoso: it's already much better than a few days ago.
12:38 masak wait, so now we have both Instant and DateTime? :/
12:38 ruoso yeah.. Instant is independent of TimeZone, Calendars and other variations
12:38 ruoso just TAI-time semantics
12:39 ruoso DateTime implements the semantics of a specific calendar
12:39 ruoso by default the Gregorian calendar
12:39 masak I will have to mull over that...
12:39 masak I'm all for being correct about these things, but I often value API simplicity more.
12:40 ruoso the definition of year, month, day, hour, minute and second is specific to the gregorian calendar
12:40 ruoso other calendars specify different cycles
12:40 pmichaud "Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler."  :-)
12:40 ruoso the hebrew calendar have the day starting at sunset
12:41 ruoso so you not only need to take the timezone in concern, but the geographical posistioning as well
12:41 pugs_svn r28214 | masak++ | fixed minor typo
12:42 masak IMO, Java made the mistake of overvaluing the "but no simpler" part, exposing too much complexity to the end programmer.
12:42 moritz_ aye; there's nothing wrong with oversimplifying things a bit
12:43 ruoso masak, it's funny you mention Java, since java DateTime doesn't support all the needed semantics
12:43 moritz_ and offer a module that exposes all the complexity
12:43 ruoso it's just wronfg
12:43 masak thus, things like these have been created: http://joda-time.sourceforge.net/
12:43 moritz_ ruoso: I don't think we should have anything more complicated than DateTime in core.
12:44 ruoso moritz_, by "anything more complicated than DateTime" you mean?
12:44 masak ruoso: my point is, I think, that the ones who win at bikeshedding and specifications are often the ones who take the most things into account. I'm not sure that always leads to the most easy-ti-use design.
12:44 masak s/-ti/-to/
12:45 ruoso masak, note that Instant and Duration are still available for the simpler use
12:45 ruoso they just don't pretend to be possible to turn TAI into a datetime spec
12:45 masak ruoso: aye. that is indeed a plus.
12:45 ruoso because it isn't
12:45 ruoso (unless you select a calendar, a time-zone and, in some calendars, the geographical position)
12:48 ruoso and most importantly... DateTimes allow you to ask things like grep { .month == 1 }, @dates
12:48 ruoso and this question should respect the original timezone used to define that objects
12:49 ruoso for instance, an order placed in Japan must have its date according to the actual date it happened, even if that TAI-second is already another date in the current timezone
12:50 masak ...so Instant is the hassle-free version of DateTime, for when you don't give a damn about dates.
12:50 ruoso exactly
12:50 masak good.
12:51 ruoso and, the same way you can't get the encoding of a Str, you can't get the Date of an Instant
12:51 ruoso you need to "encode" it using a Calendar
12:51 masak what's the way to do that for the gregorian calendar?
12:51 ruoso the default $*CALENDAR is the Gregorian Calendar
12:51 ruoso so
12:52 ruoso localtime($instant) returns what you want by default
12:52 ruoso or gmtime($instant) if you want it in the gmt timezone
12:53 ruoso or, more generically, calendartime($instant, $calendar, *%options)
12:53 masak nod.
12:53 ruoso (where Calendar::TimeZoneObservant calendars support the :time-zone option)
12:55 masak paraphrasing, "hide the appropriate amount of complexity".
12:56 pugs_svn r28215 | ruoso++ | [spec-S32-Temporal] move Duration to the top, making it more generic, while it still delegates to Gregorian::Duration if you use anything different than :tai in the constructor
13:00 * ruoso wonder about Gregorian::Calendar/DateTime/Duration vs Calendar/DateTime/Duration::Gregorian
13:00 pmichaud ruoso++  # excellent description above of the difference between Instant and DateTime
13:01 pmichaud somehow  Calendar::Gregorian feels righter to me
13:02 masak ditto.
13:02 pmichaud or perhaps even... (shudder)   Calendar[Gregorian]
13:03 ruoso hmm... I like the package-scoping
13:03 pmichaud yes, I think I prefer that as well
13:04 masak "take this fine Gregorian, and let him parameterize this Calendar..."
13:04 ruoso the thing is, what is more usfull? having to look at the Calendar sub-packages to list the supported calendars?
13:04 M_o_C What do the brackets mean?
13:04 masak M_o_C: parameterized roles.
13:04 moritz_ arguments to param... what masak said
13:04 M_o_C Ah, I already suspected it had something to do with roles.
13:04 ruoso the other idea is having an entire calendar implementation inside a package
13:05 pmichaud I somewhat like that idea
13:05 pmichaud but I'm needing to look at the existing Calendar/DateTime/Duration stuff.
13:05 ruoso pmichaud, you like all ideas :)
13:05 PerlJam good morning #perl6
13:05 pmichaud no, there are some ideas I do not like.  Such as the notion of trying to put the calendar stuff into the TAI representation :)
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13:07 masak M_o_C: watch:
13:07 masak rakudo: class Beer {}; role Bottle[::T] { multi method put(T $a) {}; multi method put($a) { die "You cannot put {$a.WHAT} in a Bottle of {T.WHAT}!" } }; class Water {}; my $beer-bottle = Bottle[Beer].new; $beer-bottle.put(Water)
13:07 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«You cannot put Water() in a Bottle of Beer()!␤in method Bottle[::T]::put (/tmp/3Bqmjdll52:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/3Bqmjdll52:2)␤»
13:07 masak Education By Beverage.
13:07 ruoso cool
13:08 moritz_ that looks like a jnthn++ example
13:08 masak jnthn++
13:08 masak it is.
13:08 * wayland76 can put water in a beer bottle :)
13:09 masak wayland76: not with my Bottle role, you can't. :)
13:09 wayland76 masak: Well, there is that :)
13:09 M_o_C Nice example indeed.
13:09 wayland76 Error: Insufficient reality in Bottle role :)
13:09 masak I still haven't used parameterized roles in a real project, but that example inspires me.
13:10 ruoso any example with Beer should inspire me
13:10 moritz_ hey, we could parameterize plots with the graph type
13:11 masak moritz_: does that buy us anything over just using Plot::PlotType?
13:11 wayland76 Hmm.  If inspire = inhale, then beer is not for inspiring :)
13:11 pmichaud http://www.pmichaud.com/perl6/rakudo-tests-2009-09-09.png  # spectest summary with updated suite size estimates
13:11 M_o_C However it sort of confuses me, as I thought roles were not meant to be standalone classes but instead classes can be constructed using roles.
13:11 moritz_ masak: don't think so
13:12 wayland76 M_o_C: Every role also works as a class.  This is called "punning".
13:12 moritz_ pmichaud: that looks quite sane to me
13:12 dalek rakudo: 872cd0d | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
13:12 dalek rakudo: Revise spectest-progress.csv results since August 2009 release to
13:12 dalek rakudo: use the updated and more-accurate counting of the spectest suite.
13:12 dalek rakudo: (moritz++)
13:12 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/872cd0dfa1a565de83fc4c59d76007bde74aa21c
13:12 dalek rakudo: 5960161 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
13:12 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 436 files, 14268 (69.3% of 20599) pass, 0 fail
13:12 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/59601615368406078308c5c0423ce4bf6b8252a4
13:12 wayland76 Basically, you probably won't need classes much any more
13:12 Matt-W nice big spectest jumps lately
13:12 pmichaud moritz_: there's a bit of a discontinuity between 08-20 and 08-21; I figured making the transition from the old method of counting to the new one made more sense as of a release date
13:13 ruoso wayland76, actually you will still use classes for things that really *are* classes
13:13 M_o_C masak: If it makes sense then there's no reason not to do it :) Plus you get used to using the New Stuff.
13:13 ruoso wayland76, the problem is that OO programmign started to call everything a class just because it was the only way to be done
13:13 masak M_o_C: you're half right.
13:13 M_o_C I guess I got the second one right?
13:13 masak M_o_C: I'd prefer an application where param'd roles actually fit very well.
13:14 masak I think that'd increase the joy of trying them out.
13:14 Matt-W We have parameterised roles, can we do it for classes as well?
13:14 moritz_ pmichaud: wfm
13:14 ruoso Matt-W, parametrised roles make sense because the parameter is set at class composition time
13:14 M_o_C Well, I don't know how the plot module's layed out, I just thought that moritz_'s suggestion made sort of sense from a theoretical point of view.
13:15 ruoso Matt-W, a parametrised class is simply a class that uses a parametrised role
13:15 moritz_ in the next release announcement we should mention that we changed our way of counting the spectests, which accounts for a different percentage of passed overall tests
13:15 pmichaud I was thinking either that, or simply don't cite the percentage of passed overall tests :)
13:15 pmichaud I'm still trying to come up with good answers to the "when we reach 100%, we're done" question.
13:16 Matt-W ruoso: ah okay, some slightly different thought patterns required (maybe some punning too)
13:16 moritz_ pmichaud: I could blog a few random thoughts about taht
13:17 pmichaud moritz_: that would be excellent, yes.
13:17 PerlJam pmichaud: just like we're done with perl 5?  :)
13:17 pmichaud PerlJam: yes, I've used that one also. :)   While accurate, it doesn't seem explanatory.
13:17 moritz_ my working title will be "when we reached 100% we did something wrong"
13:17 PerlJam moritz++
13:17 moritz_ s/reached/reach/
13:18 M_o_C moritz++ indeed.
13:18 pmichaud I have the sense that if you ask random X programmer  "Is Perl 5 done?"  their gut instinct is "yes", fsvo "done"
13:19 PerlJam We should asymptotically approach 100%, never quite reaching it until the language is dead.
13:19 jaffa8 joined #perl6
13:19 PerlJam pmichaud: What if you s/Perl 5/Ruby/ or s/Perl 5/Python/?  How do you think that would change the answer?
13:19 jaffa8 hi
13:19 pmichaud of course, the question "Is Perl 5 done?" pastes over the underlying notion of "which Perl 5?", since "Perl 5" is by no means a static definition.
13:19 jaffa8 I am looking for testers.
13:20 Matt-W people would say Python is 'done' I think
13:20 Matt-W in that it's released
13:20 pmichaud PerlJam: I don't think it would change the answer much
13:20 jaffa8 Would anyone bother to test something?
13:20 Matt-W what people really want to know when they ask if Perl 6 is 'done' is 'when will I be able to use it'
13:20 Matt-W although perhaps not phrased to imply quite such a level of enthusiasm
13:20 pmichaud Matt-W:  correct, mostly.
13:21 pmichaud an unfortunate side-effect of having a specification is that it provides a target that is separate from "release"
13:21 jaffa8 Would anyone bother to test regular expression converter?
13:21 PerlJam Matt-W: I don't know ...  I've seen some criticism of Rakudo Star because, while it'll be usable, it won't be the full language spec.
13:22 pmichaud Perl 5 doesn't have this problem, in that the implementation _is_ the spec.
13:22 PerlJam jaffa8: perhaps you'd get more response if you actually give people something to test than asking if they'd test it.
13:22 PerlJam :-)
13:23 Matt-W PerlJam: That is a problem, and people also see that the spec isn't done yet and so assume nothing's going to happen this decade
13:23 M_o_C Maybe it would make sense to release different versions of the spec with the rakudo releases which will contain only the implemented stuff? Because I think that even now it's somewhat awkward because of the dynamic spec.
13:23 Matt-W masak: do you have intentions for u4x with regard to Rakudo *?
13:24 jaffa8 I mean this could be tested: http://www.equinoxbase.com/p5p6regconv/converter.html
13:24 PerlJam M_o_C: I can see it now ... "Rakudo Star is Perl 6  1.0 but it implements version 3.7 of the spec"
13:24 masak Matt-W: good question. I don't know. maybe it'd be good to have some intermediate "release" of u4x by then.
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13:25 takadonet jaffa8: I will play around with it
13:25 jaffa8 ok
13:25 PerlJam M_o_C: though I think it would be a good idea to have a "spec release" just like we have implementation releases
13:26 PerlJam s/release/snapshot/ really
13:26 PerlJam (but that's the concept people have difficulty with)
13:26 masak jaffa8: first impression: it does not degrade gracefully, for those of us with JavaScript turned off by default.
13:26 jaffa8 Is there anyone who does not use javascript?
13:27 moritz_ quite many geeks, actually
13:28 masak jaffa8: blind people.
13:28 masak jaffa8: people on exotic platforms.
13:28 jaffa8 it is supposed to be modern in this design.
13:28 PerlJam jaffa8: do you or do you not put the delimiters to the regex?
13:28 masak jaffa8: people with text-based browsers.
13:28 masak jaffa8: I found a bug: (foo(bar))\2 is converted to /(foo(bar))$1/
13:29 PerlJam jaffa8: the interface makes it seem like you could put something in either the perl5 or perl6 boxes and expect it to DTRT (but it doesn't)
13:29 masak jaffa8: should be $0[0]
13:29 jaffa8 PerlJam: I am not sure what you mean
13:29 pmichaud jaffa8: I think PerlJam means that the perl6 box shouldn't be editable
13:30 PerlJam jaffa8: that the converter works both ways
13:30 PerlJam jaffa8: what pmichaud said
13:30 jaffa8 ok, it does not.
13:30 jaffa8 it is one-way only
13:31 PerlJam jaffa8: It seems like you can put delimiters, but it doesn't honor modifiers?
13:31 jaffa8 masak: are you sure about $0[0]?
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13:31 masak jaffa8: yes, it's right there in S05.
13:31 jaffa8 PerlJam,it should honor gmsx
13:32 PerlJam jaffa8: then /foo<CR>/x is broken
13:32 pmichaud I haven't been able to get it to honor gmsx
13:32 pmichaud /a\012b/ doesn't appear to work.
13:33 moritz_ jaffa8: [0-9] gets translated to /<[0..9]]>/ (]] is wrong)
13:33 jaffa8 you tear it apart, just joking
13:33 PerlJam jaffa8: you wanted testing  :)
13:33 jaffa8 continue.
13:34 PerlJam jaffa8: perhaps if you had an automated test suite for the converter ...
13:34 PerlJam ;)
13:34 jaffa8 I tested it.
13:34 moritz_ jaffa8: $ -> $ is also wrong
13:34 jaffa8 there are so many cases.
13:34 moritz_ jaffa8: that should be $ -> \n?$
13:35 moritz_ I planned to write such a thing for ages, never got around to it :-)
13:35 moritz_ jaffa8++
13:35 pmichaud I agree, it's pretty impressive.   jaffa8++
13:35 moritz_ std: / a++ /
13:35 p6eval std 28215: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
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13:36 moritz_ do we have the possesive quantifiers in Perl 6?
13:36 moritz_ std: / a*+ /
13:36 p6eval std 28215: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
13:37 moritz_ jaffa8++ # getting (?i:foo) right
13:39 jaffa8 so are there possesive quantifiers?
13:40 moritz_ not sure yet
13:41 jaffa8 Why do you say /foo<CR>/x is broken, what should it be?
13:41 PerlJam I thought we did it as a modifier  :keep or something
13:42 PerlJam jaffa8: it backwhacks the carriage return in the perl6 version.  It shouldn't
13:43 jaffa8 so what is wrong with /foo\<CR\>/?
13:43 JimmyZ From S02, I found parrøt and dötnet, is it right?
13:44 moritz_ jaffa8: in /x mode whitespaces in the regex are ignored
13:45 moritz_ so having an \<CR> in the translated version gives it a significance it should not have
13:45 jaffa8 ok, I know how x should work.
13:46 moritz_ re possessive quantifiers, we don't have them in Perl 6 directly
13:46 PerlJam moritz_: possessive quantifiers just don't do backtracking, right?
13:46 moritz_ right
13:46 JimmyZ Ok, I will update it.
13:46 moritz_ you can translate a*+ to [:ratchet a*]
13:46 PerlJam http://perlcabal.org/syn/S05.html#Backtracking_control  Read the fourth bullet point :)
13:47 moritz_ JimmyZ: uhm, you should give us more context to answer your question
13:47 jaffa8 moritz_, so there is no a*+ in Perl 6
13:47 JimmyZ moritz_: todo(:parrøt<0.42>, :dötnet<1.2>));
13:47 JimmyZ this line from S02
13:47 moritz_ JimmyZ: that's just an example
13:47 PerlJam jaffa8: a*+ in other regex engines  is  a*: in perl 6
13:47 JimmyZ I think it is parrot and dotnet
13:48 moritz_ JimmyZ: and I think it intentionally does not use parrot and dotnet
13:48 JimmyZ ok
13:48 moritz_ (to emphasize that it's not tied to parrot, or any other particular implementation)
13:48 JimmyZ moritz_: though I don't know why.
13:49 jaffa8 so is a*: is the same as  [:ratchet a*]?
13:49 moritz_ yes
13:49 moritz_ unless :s is present, of course :-)
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13:50 moritz_ jaffa8: the perl 5 test suite is a great source for obscure regexes that you could check
13:51 jaffa8 ok
13:52 jaffa8 I guess a++ is a+:
13:52 moritz_ aye
13:56 pmichaud okay, I have a question for the temporal design
13:56 pmichaud suppose I have a unix timestamp (# of seconds since 1-jan-1970 gmt).  How do I get the local calendar time from that?
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14:11 M_o_C Btw, it seems that rakudo.org contains no info about Rakudo *. You should probably change that.
14:12 M_o_C s/probably //
14:13 Juerd I'm sure that you can do that if you ask
14:13 Juerd And that everyone will be happy with your contribution too :)
14:13 justatheory joined #perl6
14:13 M_o_C True, problem is the only reason I realised that was because I was searching for that information.
14:14 Juerd M_o_C: http://use.perl.org/~pmichaud/journal/39411
14:14 [1]jaffa8 joined #perl6
14:15 pmichaud I'm also working on a better description of Rakudo * (but don't let that stop any efforts to go ahead and put something on rakudo.org)
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14:46 PerlJam pmichaud: the two questions that come to mind when I think about Rakudo* are:  Will it be fast? What *won't* be implemented?  The first one is just something that I tend to worry about (perhaps too much) and the second it what I hear from others in the form of  "will it have X?"  (X is often "threads" too)
14:46 rfordinal left #perl6
14:46 pmichaud PerlJam: good to know :)
14:47 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
14:48 pmichaud I think I need to run through all of the synopses and put a bunch of X<...> markers in them so that we can use them to identify specific synopsis sections
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14:53 jaffa8 PerlJam, it is already implemented partly
14:53 PerlJam jaffa8: which "it"?  Threads?
14:53 jaffa8 Perl 6
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15:18 cognominal is :@a  an array of Pairs?
15:19 moritz_ no
15:19 moritz_ it's a pair a => @a
15:19 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = <a b c>; say (:@a).perl
15:19 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«"a" => ["a", "b", "c"]␤»
15:20 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = <a b c>; say :@a.perl
15:20 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«"a" => ["a", "b", "c"]␤»
15:20 PerlJam Larry gets the colon, but man does it seem overused sometimes :)
15:20 masak PerlJam: I respectfully disagree. :)
15:20 moritz_ overused? not really, IMHO
15:21 PerlJam There's colons all over the place.  They're everywhere!   ;)
15:21 masak I had that reaction when sitting in on szabgab++'s class before YAPC too. I was honestly surprised.
15:22 * moritz_ tries to count the number of uses in the Main slang
15:22 moritz_ signature creation
15:22 moritz_ pair construction
15:22 moritz_ named parameters
15:22 masak the specific situation was that the adverb colon had just been clarified satisfactorily by szabgab. then we came upon another colon, and people sort of assumed that it'd be another adverbial colon. but it happened to be an invocant colon. this seemed to be a bit too much for people. :)
15:22 PerlJam backtracking control
15:22 moritz_ method thing ($f.method: )
15:22 moritz_ PerlJam: that's not the Main slang :-)
15:23 moritz_ adverbs (which are quite like pairs, in some sense, maybe)
15:24 moritz_ anything I forgot?
15:24 cognominal the twigil?
15:24 moritz_ that's 5 uses so far, of which 3 are rather similar
15:24 moritz_ cognominal: right
15:24 masak do double colons count? :)
15:25 moritz_ yes
15:25 moritz_ 7
15:25 masak well, there's A::B and ::T
15:25 PerlJam moritz_: in painting the picture of colons-everywhere, I'm not going to restrict my mentioning of them because of where they come from  ;)
15:25 moritz_ PerlJam: :-)
15:26 moritz_ ok, in regexes we have backtracking control (:, ::, :::), adverbs (:i) and declarations (:my $x = 3;)
15:26 cognominal I don't mind, but the doc begs for a good index and the ecosystem for a syntax aware editor that open the doc at the good page.
15:26 masak moritz_: and in quantifiers.
15:27 moritz_ masak: quantifiers? example?
15:27 moritz_ cognominal: that's what `grok' is for
15:27 cognominal grok?
15:27 moritz_ (but it needs more docs to feed it)
15:27 moritz_ literal++'s SoC project
15:27 PerlJam masak: a*: is just a special case of the non-backtracking :
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15:28 moritz_ an application, not a special case
15:28 JimmyZ rakudo: my Int $x = *; $x.say;
15:28 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
15:28 masak well, syntactically it can be seen as a separate operator.
15:28 literal cognominal: "cpanp -i App::Grok" if you'd like to try it
15:28 PerlJam moritz_: now do the same tally but for other symbols in Perl.  How many different uses are there for $?  or @?  or %?  or ^? or &?  etc.
15:28 moritz_ let's take ^
15:29 PerlJam masak: yes, LTM means that it is.
15:29 masak moritz_: in ranges.
15:29 masak moritz_: meta-class.
15:29 moritz_ xor
15:29 moritz_ twigils
15:29 moritz_ prefix:<^>
15:30 moritz_ anything else we missed?
15:30 masak moritz_: ff^ et al.
15:31 PerlJam moritz_: are we counting regex too?
15:31 moritz_ PerlJam: separately, yes
15:31 moritz_ there's ^ and ^^ in regexes
15:32 PerlJam I guess what really matters is not how many syntactic categories the symbol appears in, but how many semantic categories.
15:33 PerlJam (but in any case, : wins with the most :)
15:33 masak PerlJam: of course, ^ doesn't have any : at all!
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15:33 moritz_ rakudo: say (3 ^ 5 ^ 7).perl
15:33 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«one(3, 5, 7)␤»
15:33 moritz_ we forget that one, it seems
15:34 moritz_ s/forget/forgot/
15:34 moritz_ I wonder if + or * have more :-)
15:35 masak + has five, IIRC.
15:35 moritz_ it lost its meaning as a sigil
15:35 masak Main( prefix, infix ), twigil( depr ), Regex( postfix ), version( postfix )
15:36 masak true. so, four.
15:36 PerlJam weird ... I was just trying to type "filename" and I actually typed "filebane"
15:36 PerlJam must be some kind of freud coming out there :)
15:36 moritz_ * has main (prefx, infix, term), twigil, ** (infix, term), slurpy, regex(postfix infix)
15:36 masak then there's the somewhat special + signs in 1e+5 and 42+5i, as TimToady pointed out.
15:37 moritz_ masak: + has also Regex(<+[..]>)
15:37 masak moritz_: oh, there's ++ too, if we're counting that.
15:37 masak moritz_: right, so again five. forgot that one.
15:37 masak moritz_: and there's all the num operators which start with a +.
15:37 moritz_ aye
15:37 masak but it feels weird to count those, as well as ++.
15:38 masak I think I've internalized too much of LTM for it to feel right.
15:38 moritz_ right :-)
15:38 moritz_ oh, * is not a prefix, I got that one wrong
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15:54 * TimToady fuzzes into existence
15:55 PerlJam Is there a notation for unpacking a pair within a for loop?  something like  for @array_of_pairs -> [$key,$value] { ... }  ?
15:56 masak don't think so, but I expect something like that to be a syntax-extending module.
15:58 TimToady but there's always for @array_of_pairs».kv -> $key, $value {...}
15:58 PerlJam ah!  I keep forgetting about >>
15:59 kidd_ joined #perl6
16:02 PerlJam But still, we have a sig for unpacking arrays, why not for pairs too?
16:03 masak
16:04 masak or ℘ or ℙ
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16:05 cognominal Timtoady, what linguistic books would you recommend for someone who want to understant what natural language principles  you translated to Perl
16:06 cognominal *understand
16:08 rfordinal joined #perl6
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16:11 [particle] cognominal: try http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?r=1&amp;ean=3110142554 :)
16:12 cognominal :)
16:13 cognominal the price is just not right :(
16:13 kidd_ [particle]: ist that price for real, or it's part of humour?
16:14 kidd_ it might be like reading 'Gödel Escher Bach' :)
16:15 [particle] that's for real, but you can get a cheaper version here: http://www.amazon.com/Cruel-Unusual-Intrepid-Linguist-Library/dp/0440208505
16:15 abra joined #perl6
16:17 TimToady cognominal: not much from any book, except maybe the book I'll write after Perl 6 is done :)
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16:20 TimToady some ideas from tagmemics, some UC Berkeley classes concerning on prototypes and anthropology, some notions like "How to do things with words"
16:21 TimToady most of which I absorbed through the skin, not from books
16:22 TimToady oh, maybe Umberto Eco's The Search for the Perfect Language, that's a good one
16:22 PerlJam (Umberto Eco)++
16:23 TimToady that book talks a lot about the problems of similar-things-should-look-similar
16:23 TimToady what makes foolish consistencies foolish, as it were
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16:26 PerlJam TimToady: do you read the english translations of Umberto Eco's work?
16:27 TimToady yes, my Italian is a bit rusty :)
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16:27 PerlJam I wonder what's lost in translation there :)
16:28 TimToady He seems to have very good translators, and probably helps a lot with the translations in any case
16:30 jaffa8 I read one book of Umberto, it was depressing
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16:31 TimToady jaffa8: maybe you were just depressed anyway :)
16:31 jaffa8 maybe
16:32 jaffa8 What is the effect of those books on you, anyway?
16:33 jaffa8 I mean emotionally
16:34 TimToady I find that Eco's notions of joy are not much related to surface happiness
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16:35 TimToady and there's a lot of "fun", on some level
16:35 TimToady but yes, he's not a Disney scriptwriter
16:36 hercynium joined #perl6
16:36 PerlJam I've noticed that what my wife and her family calls "fun", I think is just silly.  Not fun-silly, just silly.
16:38 TimToady anyway, the Search for the Perfect Language is non-fiction, and not exactly optimistic, but perhaps realistic
16:38 TimToady it's a history book, in any case
16:38 TimToady and doesn't talk about anything modern
16:38 TimToady except by implication
16:39 jaffa8 I have not read that one.
16:40 TimToady SWMBO is requiring me to go take a walk so I don't drop dead
16:40 TimToady bbl &
16:41 Exodist joined #perl6
16:44 cognominal thx TimToady, I like Eco
16:45 stephenlb joined #perl6
16:45 cognominal I sure will like "Programming Perl 6"
16:47 pnu joined #perl6
16:52 cognominal subtitle: create your own slang  ?   :)
16:53 cognominal somehow the missing 'in' within Programming Perl was prescient
16:53 payload (#66498) two words: snowman. comet.   :D
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17:48 cj TimToady: .pl was already taken!
17:50 bbb_ joined #perl6
17:50 pmurias joined #perl6
17:50 pmurias cj: prolog uses .pl
17:51 cj pmurias: my point exactly. ;)
17:51 bbb_ webchat wriiten in php?
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18:12 masak evening, little snowmancomets.
18:13 rbaumer joined #perl6
18:14 * masak is stuck in a Live Apple Keynote coverage
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18:29 hercynium hey there, I have a non-code-related question for you guys
18:29 masak is it Perl-6-related?
18:29 hercynium yep!
18:29 hercynium I'd like to buy a "second system" T shirt...
18:29 hercynium and maybe a few to give out at the next Boston.PM
18:29 masak cool.
18:30 hercynium which store should I buy from.... Cafe Press or Spreadshirt?
18:31 masak I don't even have the beginning of an idea.
18:31 hercynium (I can't tell the diff... maybe you make more from one or the other?)
18:31 [particle] hercynium: pmichaud set those up last week, only he knows....
18:31 masak try both, and go for the one you like better?
18:32 hercynium sounds like a plan. I'm game for it.
18:32 hercynium heh
18:32 finanalyst left #perl6
18:32 hercynium when I saw that logo on a slide at YAPC::NA, I think it was pmichaud whom I said "where can I get that on a shirt?"
18:35 pmichaud http://cafepress.com/rakudo
18:35 pmichaud http://rakudo.spreadshirt.com/
18:35 pmichaud http://zazzle.com/rakudo
18:35 hercynium ooo, I think I found something that explains it... spreadshirt is based in europe?
18:36 hercynium so, for me in the US, cafepress would probably be best to benefit perl6?
18:36 pmichaud I've heard some people say they like spreadshirt's quality better
18:37 pmichaud I've not tried any of them myself yet as far as actually purchasing any products, so I don't know the relative quality
18:37 pmichaud which is partially why I did all three :)
18:37 hercynium OK, cool.
18:37 hercynium thanks, pmichaud and masak
18:38 moritz_ spreadshirt charges $ 14 for shipment to Germany. *gulp*
18:39 hercynium holy shipping charges batman
18:39 hercynium ;-)
18:43 masak rakudo: class Feeling { method mouth { ... } }; class Happiness is Feeling { method mouth { ")" } }; class Sadness is Feeling { method mouth { "(" } }; role Smiley[Feeling $f] { method smile { ":-" ~ $f.mouth } }; say Smiley[Happiness].new.smile
18:43 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«:-)␤»
18:44 pmichaud rakudo: class Feeling { method mouth { ... } }; class Happiness is Feeling { method mouth { ")" } }; class Sadness is Feeling { method mouth { "(" } }; role  Smiley[Feeling $f] { method smile { ":-" ~ $f.mouth } }; say Smiley[Happiness].new.smile
18:44 pmichaud oops
18:44 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«:-)␤»
18:44 pmichaud rakudo: class Feeling { method mouth { ... } }; class Happiness is Feeling { method mouth { ")" } }; class Sadness is Feeling { method mouth { "(" } }; role  Smiley[Feeling $f] { method smile { ":-" ~ $f.mouth } }; say Smiley[(Happiness, Sadness).pick].new.smile
18:44 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«:-)␤»
18:44 pmichaud rakudo: class Feeling { method mouth { ... } }; class Happiness is Feeling { method mouth { ")" } }; class Sadness is Feeling { method mouth { "(" } }; role  Smiley[Feeling $f] { method smile { ":-" ~ $f.mouth } }; say Smiley[(Happiness, Sadness).pick].new.smile
18:44 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for '_block127'␤in Main (/tmp/dnqQdbuowh:2)␤»
18:45 masak o_O
18:45 pmichaud :-(
18:45 masak rakudo: class Feeling { method mouth { ... } }; class Happiness is Feeling { method mouth { ")" } }; class Sadness is Feeling { method mouth { "(" } }; role Smiley[Feeling $f] { method smile { ":-" ~ $f.mouth } }; say Smiley[Sadness].new.smile
18:45 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
18:45 masak rakudo: class Feeling { method mouth { ... } }; class Happiness is Feeling { method mouth { ")" } }; class Sadness is Feeling { method mouth { "(" } }; role Smiley[Feeling $f] { method smile { ":-" ~ $f.mouth } }; say Smiley[Sadness].new.smile
18:45 pmichaud Sadness.
18:45 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
18:46 masak p6eval--
18:46 pmichaud rakudobug:  Rakudo doesn't know how to be sad.
18:46 masak pmichaud: what could have caused the 'no applicable candidates' above?
18:46 arnsholt What's the meaning of the "second system" slogan?
18:46 pmichaud masak: I don't know.  I'm still learning the dispatch.
18:47 masak arnsholt: there's something called "second system syndrome".
18:47 Juerd arnsholt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
18:47 arnsholt Oh, right, right
18:47 pen12346 joined #perl6
18:47 M_o_C Is that second system thing explained somewhere? Because I don't really understand what it means.
18:47 arnsholt Juerd's Wikipedia link is pretty good
18:47 TimToady backlog about 30 seconds
18:48 M_o_C Meh, sorry
18:48 mberends joined #perl6
18:48 masak mberends! \o/
18:48 M_o_C Didn't notice scrollbar was half way up
18:48 pmichaud "...to design the successor as an elephantine, feature-laden monstrosity. "
18:48 pmichaud ...is that Perl 6?  ;-)
18:48 Juerd butterfline?
18:48 masak pmichaud: yes, but done right. :)
18:49 lmc joined #perl6
18:49 pmichaud "...to design the successor as an elephantine, feature-laden monstrosity done right."
18:49 masak Smiley[Happiness]
18:49 jaffa8 elephantine?
18:49 jaffa8 Is that positive?
18:49 masak jaffa8: no.
18:49 TimToady depends on whether you think elephants are oversized, I suppose
18:50 Juerd jaffa8: Sure. Elephants have good memory.
18:50 jaffa8 or powerful?
18:50 masak jaffa8: it means "large", "bulky", "unwieldy"
18:50 TimToady there's too much subtle elephantism in the world
18:50 mberends masak: \o/ doin' da proto
18:50 hercynium Elephants are excellently adapted animals
18:50 masak mberends++
18:50 hercynium (and I think they're cute)
18:50 masak they are.
18:51 pen12346 http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&amp;l=1357&amp;u_id=363435
18:51 masak "elephantine" is still usually not a compliment.
18:51 TimToady just like "femenine"
18:51 TimToady *feminine
18:51 TimToady gah
18:51 jaffa8 the end is "done right"
18:51 Juerd An elephant's end is done right?
18:51 masak pen12346: hello, are you perchance a spammer?
18:52 TimToady and thereby hangs a tail
18:52 was kicked by TimToady: TimToady
18:52 pen12346 joined #perl6
18:52 masak that was quick.
18:53 masak probably a bot.
18:53 pen12346 left #perl6
18:53 masak ...with hurtable feelings.
18:54 Juerd role Bot { has Feeling $feeling; }...
18:54 masak Bot[Sadness]
18:54 TimToady the rejoin was presumably to check if it was also banned
18:54 pmurias j
18:54 masak TimToady: ah. bot psychology.
18:56 TimToady "Tune in next week, same bot time, same bot channel!"
18:56 * hercynium groans
18:57 TimToady carefule, you're showing your age
18:58 masak TimToady: not necessarily. that series aired in my country when I was growing up.
18:58 TimToady .oO(cultural backwaters...)
18:58 * hercynium used to watch reruns as a kid, in the 80's
18:59 masak I suspect ours weren't reruns.
18:59 hercynium The Batman TV series was a paragon of televised onomatopoeia
19:00 mberends masak: .oO( preload project.state file with @old_project_names? )
19:00 TimToady why do my fingerse keepe adding extra e's on the endse of wordse these dayse?
19:00 masak mberends: .oO( your call. programmer's privilege how much to serve the transitioning user. )
19:01 hercynium why was the first thing I thought of after reading that the word "goats"
19:01 moritz_ hercynium: too much /.e?
19:01 masak hercynium: thanks for sharing. :)
19:01 rba_ joined #perl6
19:01 * hercynium has spent too much time in #perl on magnet
19:02 hercynium ok, work has a bug. later guys!
19:02 masak work does indeed have a bug.
19:03 masak my neighbour, too. he came in here coughing earlier.
19:07 TimToady there are a lot of people hacking here in silicon valley
19:07 * masak groans
19:07 TimToady you get an assist
19:08 masak :)
19:09 TimToady in fact, I took up golf just so I could be a hacker³
19:10 masak I just ran out of homonyms.
19:11 diakopter and they locked the door behind you
19:12 masak what is this, pun Wednesday or something? :)
19:16 diakopter what bug? it works for me...
19:19 diakopter TimToadye: how's the weather
19:20 jaffa8 rakudo : /a\012b/
19:21 jaffa8 rakudo:  /a\012b/
19:21 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Alphanumeric metacharacters are reserved at offset 14, found '1'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
19:21 TimToady std: /a\012b/
19:21 p6eval std 28215: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex backslash sequence at /tmp/ONKRl2GVpb line 1:␤------> [32m/a\[33m⏏[31m012b/[0m␤    expecting backslash␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
19:21 TimToady std: /a\0o12b/
19:21 p6eval std 28215: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
19:21 TimToady std: /a\o12b/
19:21 p6eval std 28215: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
19:22 TimToady rakudo: /a\o12b/
19:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
19:22 TimToady rakudo: say "a\o12b" ~~ /a\o12b/
19:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«a␤b␤»
19:23 TimToady diakopter: a bit hot
19:23 moritz_ I have been thinking if abolishing want() was a bit too much
19:24 moritz_ specifically I thought about keeping a mechanism for querying if something is in void context or not
19:24 moritz_ for two reasons
19:24 moritz_ 1) getting good warnings
19:24 moritz_ 2) making lazy lists eager
19:24 moritz_ somebody[tm] said that 'for' and 'map' are synonymous
19:25 moritz_ if that's true, and you do 'for @list { .say }' not everything might be printed
19:25 moritz_ because the for would be lazily evaluated
19:25 TimToady void is automatically eager
19:26 masak I've been wanting proper continuations in the language lately. especially after realizing that PIR has them.
19:26 moritz_ but how does builtin know it's in void context?
19:26 moritz_ s/does/does the/
19:26 moritz_ or the list
19:28 TimToady it doesn't know, it just returns an iterator
19:28 moritz_ and something calls $it.void on it?
19:28 moritz_ which exhausts the iterator
19:29 TimToady something like that
19:29 moritz_ ok, who or what calls .void?
19:30 TimToady the implicit statement_prefix:<void> we put at the front of void statements, maybe?
19:31 moritz_ wfm
19:32 pmichaud ak
19:32 pmichaud afk
19:32 TimToady hmm, I think we need to define the inside of a gather as "void lazy" though, if void is eager
19:33 TimToady well, gather is magical in any case
19:34 TimToady the laziness is attached to the takes, not to the outer loop
19:34 araujo joined #perl6
19:34 jaffa8 rakudo: my $v="\033"; print $v;
19:34 TimToady it's more of an async context there
19:34 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«\123 form deprecated, use \o123 instead at line 2, near "\\033\"; pri"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
19:37 hercynium joined #perl6
19:39 araujo hello
19:39 masak o/
19:42 jaffa8 ok, I fixed the errors you mentioned me.
19:42 jaffa8 thanks, masak and pmichaud.
19:43 jaffa8 and others.,
19:43 TimToady .oOo°  # michelin man waving
19:43 araujo hah
19:44 masak jaffa8: still just an empty page for us non-JavaScripters, though.
19:44 jaffa8 there should be a message too.
19:44 masak there isn't.
19:45 jaffa8 I can see it in Opera.
19:45 jaffa8 what browser do you use?
19:45 masak Firefox 3.
19:45 masak I see it when I view source.
19:45 jaffa8 yes, it is in the header.
19:47 jaffa8 masak, try now.
19:47 masak aye, that works.
19:47 masak jaffa8++
19:49 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
20:00 masak proto's projects.list now contains 35 projects.
20:00 TimToady phone
20:01 moritz_ masak: that's another thing we can chart over time ;-)
20:02 masak moritz_: oh, indeed. thanks to git.
20:02 masak I've been thinking the same thing, actually.
20:05 jaffa8 What happened to the perl 5 to perl 6 converter?
20:05 moritz_ I guess it bitrotted
20:05 masak is there code somewhere, publicly?
20:06 jaffa8 Could it convert code partially?
20:06 ruoso TimToady, have you seen my changes to Temporal.pod?
20:07 masak ruoso: TimToady is currently on the phone.
20:07 moritz_ masak: in pugs/misc/
20:07 * masak looks
20:07 moritz_ misc/pX/Common/P5_to_P6_Translation
20:08 masak ooh, Haskell.
20:08 jaffa8 Is it in Haskell?
20:09 masak seems so.
20:09 masak it was a common tool during the Golden Age.
20:09 M_o_C Golden Age of what?
20:10 moritz_ of pugs
20:10 masak ...of the history of Perl 6, actually.
20:10 masak what we have now is nice and all, but it's relatively calm compared to the activity back then.
20:10 M_o_C so to what does "it" refer? The converter, haskell or pugs?
20:10 masak Haskell.
20:11 jaffa8 I have doubts if Haskell is really compact
20:11 araujo the converter is in Haskell? :)
20:11 jaffa8 there are so many lines.
20:12 araujo jaffa8, it is ... compared to many languages out there
20:12 araujo also, remember to do this comparison with static languages too
20:12 masak jaffa8: there are probably many lines because it does a whole lot.
20:12 moritz_ araujo: Haskell *is* a static language ;-)
20:12 araujo food
20:13 masak Haskell is definitely a static language.
20:13 masak anyone who has tried to get a program through GHC can tell you that.
20:13 moritz_ aye
20:14 araujo you feel it very dynamic once you get used to it you know :P
20:14 masak yeah, yeah. :)
20:14 masak I feel dynamic once I get going with Java too.
20:16 araujo I remember an interview of this guy ... the STL C++ author (what is his name?) ... telling that he never got used to java , I do think java is a hard language to get used to though
20:17 jaffa8 but where is MADSKILLS?
20:17 araujo Haskell might look tough or ugly at first, but people can certainly get used to it since it is a very simple language
20:17 moritz_ knowing Eiffel and C I didn't find it too hard to get used to Java
20:17 M_o_C moritz_, masak: Does "static" only apply to typing or are there other things which can be static/dynamic about a language?
20:17 justatheory joined #perl6
20:18 masak good question. binding?
20:18 masak syntax evaluation?
20:18 moritz_ monkey patching, for example
20:19 M_o_C syntax evaluation? # True, didn't think of that.
20:19 moritz_ but yes, run time tzping and eval() are very typical points
20:19 mberends araujo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stepanov
20:19 jaffa8 if I like about ghc..
20:19 jaffa8 it is very easy to make an exe out of it.
20:20 moritz_ I saw a great talk (only on youtube, sadly) where the speaker defined dynamic languages as "languages like perl, ruby, php, python, tcl and javascript"
20:20 * masak would like a language with a built-in dynamic Alexander Stepanov...
20:20 araujo mberends, that one :)
20:21 colomon rakudo: my $a = 1; my @b = (1, 2, 3); say ($a <<-<< @b).perl
20:21 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«[0, -1, -2]␤»
20:22 moritz_ phenny: tell Su-Shee http://rakudo.spreadshirt.net/de/DE/Shop/Index/ Perl 6 goodies without horrible shipping costs. Sadly spreadshirt.de doesn't allow images on dark t-shirts (wtf?)
20:22 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when Su-Shee is around.
20:22 colomon rakudo: my $a = 1; my @b = (1, 2, 3); say ($a «-« @b).perl
20:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Non-dwimmy hyperoperator cannot be used on arrays of different sizes or dimensions.␤in Main (/tmp/LipUHwW8BT:2)␤»
20:22 araujo Ok, anyway .. perl6 is going to be a dynatic language
20:22 colomon Aha!
20:22 araujo food time!
20:23 masak Perl 6 is also going to be a static language.
20:24 jaffa8 so my is not going to be needed.
20:24 rapacity joined #perl6
20:24 araujo dynatic is dynamic+static!
20:24 TimToady stynamic
20:25 masak dynastic
20:25 M_o_C dyntastic :)
20:25 TimToady well, now that quietfanatic is starting to follow in my footsteps...
20:26 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
20:26 araujo hah, food time for real :P
20:28 vmbrasseur joined #perl6
20:29 TimToady jaffa8: I am now imagining a style of programming that uses only 'state' declarations
20:30 masak 'dynstatic'?
20:30 TimToady "never call any closure more than once, or it will misbehave"
20:30 dukeleto joined #perl6
20:30 TimToady sort of a single-closure-semantics paradigm
20:31 [particle] static-single-assignment
20:32 TimToady sort of hyper structured programming: every block should have a single entry point, and you should only ever call it once
20:32 masak YaY! first Squirrel test passes!
20:32 moritz_ use_ok('Squirrel'); ?
20:32 TimToady sorta like html
20:32 masak moritz_: I've never understood those use_ok tests...
20:33 TimToady I'm an HTML programmer; what is this loop thing you keep talking about?
20:33 masak loops are just a special case of on-the-fly code generation.
20:33 moritz_ uhm, you can write loops with only state variables
20:34 colomon masak++ # even though as a dog lover I am required to be anti-squirrel...
20:34 moritz_ why? do squirrels attack your dog?
20:35 colomon moritz_: No, but my dog would spend all her time chasing squirrels if given the chance.
20:35 masak they gang up on the dog, turn it over, and carry it away...
20:35 diakopter TimToady: wait, but, here's the question about this new language you're pondering:
20:36 colomon I've also sustained minor injuries as she lunged at a squirrel while I've had her on leash....  :)
20:36 moritz_ which keeps her fit and healthy - isn't that an argument for squirrels?
20:36 diakopter when you call one of these single-use routines, does control return back to the callsite or to directly after where the routine was declared? :)
20:36 colomon moritz_: shhhh... I can't be heard saying things like that.
20:37 TimToady diakopter: I knows a goto when I sees one.
20:38 TimToady moritz_: yes, you can write a loop, but your hosed if you put a loop inside a loop, 'cause then the inner loop wouldn't reset
20:38 TimToady *you're
20:39 TimToady unless, of course, you recreate the closure :)
20:39 diakopter hosed like piped?
20:39 moritz_ unless you manually reset the variables in the inner loop, of course
20:39 TimToady the intertube is a series of hoses
20:39 diakopter and the biggest one goes on forever
20:40 TimToady well, yes, the entire universe *is* inside a black hole, so?
20:41 moritz_ saying the univers is *in* something implies that there's an outside, which kinda contradicts the defintion of "universe"
20:41 TimToady I guess a black hole looks kinda like a hose in spacetime
20:41 * ruoso decommute &
20:41 TimToady yeah, well, just because that's how the university defines universe doesn't make it so :P
20:42 buubot joined #perl6
20:42 * [particle] refills his klien bottle
20:42 mberends rakudo: class Installer { method fetch { ... }; method fetch { ... }; };
20:42 diakopter TimToady: it's goto, but with context injection
20:42 TimToady wie klien ist es?
20:42 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
20:42 pmichaud My dog chases squirrels all the time.  And rabbits.  Her day is totally incomplete if she doesn't get to go out looking for rabbits, and she very forcefully lets us know that it's time to go look for rabbits.
20:43 masak mberends: I think I reported that as a bug once.
20:44 mberends why am I not surprised? ;)
20:44 buubot joined #perl6
20:44 eiro joined #perl6
20:44 colomon pmichaud: I'd love to live somewhere rural enough I could let my dog chase off-leash to her heart's content.  She'd love it even more, of course!
20:44 TimToady STD won't catch that one yet, since metaclasses are their own namespace
20:44 pmichaud oh, my dog doesn't get to be off-leash :)
20:44 rapacity joined #perl6
20:45 pmichaud at least, not normally.  Sometimes she manages to slip her collar and then we go a-chasing her (as happened last night, unfortunately)
20:47 TimToady diakopter: mostly, the weather here has either been 10 degrees hotter or 10 degrees cooler than predicted
20:48 masak mberends: yup: http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=57788
20:48 mberends :) masak++
20:49 pyrimidine joined #perl6
20:49 TimToady well, STD will find the subs, since it checks lexpad and package names
20:49 TimToady but methods no longer go into either of those by default
20:50 pyrimidine joined #perl6
20:57 * masak uses a given inside a gather!
21:00 stephenlb joined #perl6
21:23 [1]jaffa8 joined #perl6
21:26 masak phenny: tell Tene that I've made nice progress on Squirrel. I've pushed it so that you can see (in the Web.pm repo). try running t/squirrel/sqlite-write.t -- the second test fails for me, even though I think it ought to pass. it's a mystery. will look at it tomorrow with fresh eyes.
21:26 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when Tene is around.
21:26 masak g'night, people.
21:35 sundar_ joined #perl6
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23:16 s1n pmichaud: so you fixed Env?
23:17 pmichaud I did.
23:18 justatheory moritz_: honk
23:18 s1n pmichaud: no proxy objects?
23:18 pmichaud I decided that %ENV itself would be the proxy for the entire environment
23:19 s1n how did you fix that? was the change a parrot change?
23:19 pmichaud i.e., I decoupled %ENV from Parrot's Env object, and we just set the environment when we're about to do something where that's liable to make a difference
23:19 pmichaud e.g., just before run()
23:20 pmichaud and opening a command pipe
23:20 s1n hmm, the change was in run()?
23:21 pmichaud several places
23:22 s1n looks like !hash_to_env does some of those bits
23:22 pmichaud but the convincing case is that   { my %*ENV = <a hash>;   run("command");  }   has to work
23:22 tak11 joined #perl6
23:23 pmichaud so that told me that proxy objects weren't really the way to go.
23:23 pmichaud sorry I missed yesterday's meeting;  things got hectic around the house and I ended up forgetting about it until it was too late.  I did remember it the day before, though :)
23:23 s1n pmichaud: it seemed way complicated to me but i wasn't in any position to argue with jnthn about it
23:24 pmichaud well, I was the one who originaly thought we'd need proxy objects, so it's ultimately my fault :)
23:24 s1n it's alright, like i mentioned after the hackathon, i suspected people would miss this one
23:25 s1n no sweat, mini-hackathon in two weeks :)
23:25 pmichaud let me check that it's on my calendar... :)
23:26 pmichaud It is.
23:27 patspam joined #perl6
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23:49 ab5tract joined #perl6
23:49 * ruoso .oO( it seems Temporal bikes^Wspec work stabilized a bit)

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