Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-09-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:47 mikehh rakudo (5960161) builds on parrot r411796 - make test / make spectest (up to r28216) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 (g++)
00:47 mikehh rakudo - t/spec/S03-operators/arith.rakudo - TODO passed:   120, 131-132
00:47 mikehh rakudo - t/spec/S02-names_and_variables.rakudo - Non-zero wait status: 11 (Segfault after passing tests)
00:56 colomon On Complex.sin -- seems like more or less the same thing is happening to it as happened to Num.sin.  Only difference is it looks like it really is a Complex being passed in.
00:57 colomon Is it possible Complex.sin is calling a Parrot Complex.sin function rather than the Complex.sin defined in Complex.pm?  I added a "say" in Complex.pm's sin, and it is never called, even on the Complex.sin calls that work.
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01:27 colomon rakudo: say 0.0.cosh;
01:27 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«1␤»
01:27 colomon rakudo: say 0.0.cosh('degrees');
01:27 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«57.2957795130823␤»
01:28 colomon Ummm... that can't possible be right, can it?
01:29 TimToady did you mean arccos?
01:30 colomon No, I meant cosh, hyperbolic cos.
01:30 colomon Rakudo is treating it as if the output of the function was an angle measure, and so adjusting the output by base.
01:31 TimToady hmm, that might work if the slope of the curve were .5 :)
01:32 TimToady er, 1
01:32 TimToady but somehow cosh never struck me as an identity function
01:33 * wayland76 gets it -- cosh never struck me :)
01:34 TimToady we're civilized in America; we don't cosh people, we club 'em
01:37 wayland76 Well, I learned about coshes from American comic strips :)
01:38 colomon I can't recall ever hearing of "cosh" for a blackjack-type weapon before.
01:38 wayland76 Well, you obviously don't read the right kind of comics :)
01:39 wayland76 I think it was a Phantom comic, possibly one older than I am
01:40 colomon I have been reading comics older than I am (by a few months, anyway) lately, but they were circa-1970 Iron Man issues.
01:42 colomon Anyway, can someone out there confirm I am not insane?  The hyperbolic functions take an angle as an argument, not return an angle.  If that is correct, then both the implementation and tests for cosh (and presumably the others) are flat out wrong.
01:42 colomon Take a "hyperbolic angle" according to wikipedia.
01:47 TimToady doesn't look like you can measure a hyperbolic angle in "degrees"...
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01:48 TimToady interestingly, you can think of ordinary angles as areas in a sector of a circle
01:49 TimToady it just happens to be linear in ϑ
01:52 TimToady anyway, I'd guess someone just cargo-culted the code from circular functions
01:52 colomon TimToady: where are you getting the degrees thing?
01:52 TimToady which degrees thing?  when talking about ϑ I mean circular functions
01:52 colomon and if we use that logic, do we chuck out the different bases on Complex sin / cos as well?
01:53 colomon "doesn't look like you can measure a hyperbolic angle in "degrees""
01:53 TimToady it's a measure of area
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01:53 TimToady according to wikipedia
01:54 colomon "Just as a point on a circular segment sweeps out an area proportional to the circular angle, so too it can be shown that with the above definition a point on a hyperbolic sector sweeps out an area proportional to the hyperbolic angle"
01:54 colomon Also according to wikipedia.  ;()
01:54 TimToady sure, I just doubt that anyone measures it in degrees for hyperbolics
01:55 TimToady but I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert...
01:56 TimToady haven't thought about hyperbolic functions for 35 years...
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01:56 TimToady that was back when I was intelligent but stupid
01:57 colomon They don't seem to have a lot of day-to-day uses, for sure.
01:59 * araujo guesses now TimToady is just .... intelligent??
01:59 TimToady now I'm an idiot, but a very smart one
02:00 araujo hahaha
02:00 wayland76 I engage in hyperbole but don't think much about its function :)
02:00 TimToady I prefer to be elliptical
02:02 TimToady angles are conic sections too, but they don't get much respect
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02:08 colomon phenny: tell pmichaud calls to Complex.sin appear to be rewired to calls to Parrot's Complex.sin function rather than Complex.pm's.  Not sure if this is worth fixing right away, as am having existential crisis about whether Complex trig should support anything other than radians.
02:08 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
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02:11 __ash__ colomon did you try mapping Perl6 Complex to parrot's complex like how he did with Num and Float
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05:19 pmichaud phenny:  tell colomon that I'm thinking that perhaps we should ignore Parrot's built-in Complex type altogether and just write our own from scratch in Perl 6, similar to how we did Rat
05:19 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when colomon is around.
05:19 phenny pmichaud: 02:08Z <colomon> tell pmichaud calls to Complex.sin appear to be rewired to calls to Parrot's Complex.sin function rather than Complex.pm's.  Not sure if this is worth fixing right away, as am having existential crisis about whether Complex trig should support anything other than radians.
05:23 Tene I'm working on one of the facebook puzzles, and some of this stuff would be much easier in Perl 6. :)
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05:42 sundar_ Hi.. I'm having some issues compiling parrot under Windows. Is there any guide or anything specifically for Windows?
05:48 wayland76 sundar_: I recommend the parrot channel on irc.parrot.org -- all the Parrot people hang out there
05:49 wayland76 ( #parrot channel, I should've said)
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05:54 tilt \o/
05:56 tilt can perl6 connect to mysql? :P
05:56 tilt does it have a CGI module? :)
06:05 dalek rakudo: a0494f8 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
06:05 dalek rakudo: Bump PARROT_REVISION.
06:05 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a0494f8a4576694437cc8aa933a8f5f6ff29c5e2
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06:18 Tene tilt: Perl 6 can connect to SQLite.  There's been some work on MSql support, but it's not quite there yet.
06:19 agentzh Tene: really awesome...
06:19 Tene tilt: For CGI, the answer depends on exactly what you want to do.  The Perl 5 CGI module is very large, and includes a lot of stuff.  Much of it is available in different individual libraries in Perl 6.
06:19 Tene tilt: You should probably start looking at the web.pm repo, although remember that it's a work in progress, just like everything else around here. :)
06:20 * Tene considers erecting one of those 1995-era "Construction In Progress" animated GIFs.
06:21 Tene (give the anti-camelia crowd something legitimate to complain about...)
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07:49 Matt-W Morning
07:50 agentzh good localtime :)
07:50 moritz_ oh hai
07:52 araujo iah ho
07:53 araujo ;)
07:55 * agentzh is always waiting to use perl 6 extensively in $production :D
07:56 agentzh though looking at coco lua atm :P
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07:58 araujo coco lua?
08:00 agentzh araujo: http://coco.luajit.org/
08:00 * agentzh is currently pondering merging it into nginx's event model.
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08:21 JimmyZ_ rakudo:  my int $y = undef;
08:21 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "int $y = u"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
08:22 JimmyZ_ rakudo:  my int $y = Nil;
08:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "int $y = N"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
08:22 JimmyZ_ rakudo:  my int $y = 'a';
08:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "int $y = '"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
08:22 JimmyZ_ rakudo: my int $y = 1;
08:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "int $y = 1"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
08:22 JimmyZ_ rakudo: my int $abc = 1;
08:22 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "int $abc ="␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
08:22 moritz_ JimmyZ_: "malformed declaration" has nothing to do what you put on the right side
08:23 moritz_ JimmyZ_: it means that rakudo can't cope with left side
08:23 JimmyZ_ rakudo: my $abc = 1;
08:23 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
08:24 JimmyZ_ moritz_: rakudo doesnot support int?
08:24 moritz_ JimmyZ_: no
08:24 moritz_ no native types at all
08:25 JimmyZ_ rakudo: my Int $abc = 1;
08:25 p6eval rakudo 446d49:  ( no output )
08:25 JimmyZ_ oh, I thought It had.
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09:37 masak good late morning, cheese speleologists.
09:37 phenny masak: 10 Sep 17:13Z <pmichaud> tell masak I expect us to have a decent REPL by December.  Probably sooner than that.
09:37 masak sounds good.
09:38 masak phenny: tell pmichaud that when I run `parrot examples/pge/demo.pir`, enter 'regex a*' and then 'pir', I get a Null PMC access in get_string(). has something bitrotted?
09:38 phenny masak: yeah, sure, whatever
09:39 masak o_O
09:39 JimmyZ_ Is phenny a bot/
09:39 masak I used to think so... :)
09:39 M_o_C It should be.
09:39 JimmyZ_ phenny: Are you a bot?
09:41 JimmyZ_ rakudo: constant Num π = atan2(4,4) * 4; π.say;
09:41 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«3.14159265358979␤»
09:42 JimmyZ_ Can perl6 ouput more precision?
09:47 * masak doesn't know
09:48 JimmyZ_ :(
09:49 carlin from http://inamidst.com/phenny/modules/tell.py: elif rand > 0.999: response = "yeah, sure, whatever"     cute :)
09:49 masak one in a thousand. :)
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10:10 Matt-W Reminds me of a power I got in Champions Online last night. Experimental Blaster: 1% chance of turning target into a teddy bear
10:12 masak that would explain all the hugging on this channel.
10:14 Matt-W :)
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10:19 carlin hugme should have a 1 in 1000 chance to refuse to hug someone ;)
10:21 Matt-W no that would be wrong
10:22 Matt-W hugme: hug carlin
10:22 * hugme hugs carlin
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10:38 pmurias if i have clone a repo from github is it possible to have git reuse data when cloning my fork?
10:38 pmurias * cloned
10:39 * masak doubts it
10:39 masak though I'm pretty sure github does that, internally. they would be foolish not to.
10:40 pmurias i remember reading that they do it
10:45 pmurias fatal: http://github.com/pmurias/perl/tree/git@github.com:pmurias/perl.git/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server?
10:45 pmurias what the heck?
10:51 pmurias my fault
10:52 moritz_ pmurias: if you just 'remote add' the second clone it should reuse packs
10:52 moritz_ if you make a completely independent clone, not (obviously)
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12:02 masak suddenly I'm not so sure Bielefeld exists.
12:02 moritz_ masak: it doesn't.
12:02 masak see? :)
12:02 moritz_ at least I don't believe what THEY tell me
12:03 masak probably wise.
12:06 moritz_ @seen Su-Shee
12:07 moritz_ phenny: seen Su-Shee
12:07 moritz_ where are the bots when you need them?
12:07 wayland76 see?  lambdabot was good for something after all :)
12:07 masak hugme: hug Su-Shee
12:07 * hugme hugs Su-Shee
12:07 masak the important bot is here :)
12:08 masak wayland76: oh lambdabot is quite OK, albeit somewhat chatty. it's purl that's the great nemesis.
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12:11 takadonet morning all
12:12 moritz_ @foo
12:13 masak @morning, @takadonet. @@@
12:14 M_o_C moritz_: At least phenny is in a bad mood today.
12:20 moritz_ he, talking about random features for hugme...
12:20 moritz_ randomly refusing hugging might be a bad idea
12:20 masak nod.
12:21 moritz_ but it could look like "*hugme hugs masak and flushes" or so
12:21 masak randomly giving extra hugs might be a good idea :)
12:22 moritz_ yes
12:23 moritz_ uhm, "to flush" is very ambiguous
12:23 moritz_ it can mean become red in the face
12:23 moritz_ or you can flush a toilet
12:23 masak "blush" might be better.
12:24 moritz_ indeed
12:25 masak in fact, the more variations on hugs, the better, I think.
12:25 masak "* hugme gives moritz_ a long, warm hug"
12:26 masak "* hugme jumps forward and hugs moritz_ forcibly"
12:26 masak "* hugme takes moritz_ in its arms and applies an excellent hug"
12:27 moritz_ in rare cases, hugme could also handle out positive karma ;-)
12:28 masak aye.
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12:33 masak spectesting today took 88 minutes. :(
12:33 moritz_ did it produce many exit status 11?
12:33 masak that, too.
12:34 masak a frightening amount, actually.
12:34 masak some of them are 10's.
12:34 masak and 4's.
12:34 moritz_ masak: then could you please comment on https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/998 to tell them that it happens on your platform too?
12:34 masak will do.
12:34 masak moritz_++
12:35 masak is the slowness related to this, you think?
12:35 moritz_ no
12:36 moritz_ slowness and non-zero exit status appeared at different parrot revisions
12:36 moritz_ sadly I was having a really hard time bisecting them
12:37 colomon +
12:37 phenny colomon: 05:19Z <pmichaud> tell colomon that I'm thinking that perhaps we should ignore Parrot's built-in Complex type altogether and just write our own from scratch in Perl 6, similar to how we did Rat
12:38 moritz_ that would make it easier to have different slot types
12:38 moritz_ ie a Complex of Rats or so
12:38 * moritz_ likes the idea
12:40 colomon Huh.  I don't know if it was just getting a good night's sleep or what, but all my doubts about how to handle these issues seem to have dissolved this morning.  :)
12:43 masak great!
12:44 pugs_svn r28217 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Unfudge tests for Num.sin / Num.cos with explicit base, fixed by pmichaud++'s commit d0355a5dde0973e01834d58de099e53b97fe70a6.
12:45 colomon May just mean I am confidently wrong now, but what the heck!   [:)
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12:45 masak I've gotten a lot of productive things done by being confidently wrong.
12:45 masak as long as you're still impressionable, being confident in any direction is usually a boon.
12:52 * takadonet loves using multiple cores to run the spectest
12:52 moritz_ me too
12:52 moritz_ it makes testing more convenient, but it doesn't solve the underlying problem
12:53 masak something has definitely happened. testing used to take under 30 minutes here. now almost 90.
12:54 colomon Glad that slowdown wasn't just my imagination!
12:59 * moritz_ would be glad if the slowdown was just imaginary
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13:02 moritz_ anyway, until these errors-at-exit are fixed I can't meaningfully work on the test suite without breaking rakudo
13:02 moritz_ the test summary is just useless if you have to scroll several pages, reading carefully if there are any new/relevant ones
13:03 colomon I wonder why I'm not getting these errors at exit?
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13:03 colomon (On the other hand, it seems like I keep on getting bus errors after running standalone p6 scripts...)
13:03 moritz_ colomon: which platform (CPU, OS) are you on?
13:04 colomon OS X Intel.
13:04 moritz_ masak can reproduce them - bacek can't
13:10 moritz_ maybe related to compiler versions?
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13:37 masak urgh, and now I get an ugly 'failed assertion' when running the squerl test file. :(
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14:09 masak rakudo: ((Temporal::DateTime.new(date => Temporal::Date.new(:year(2010), :month(4), :day(1)), time => Temporal::Time.new(:hour(0), :minute(0), :second(0))).epoch - time) / (60 * 60 * 24)).ceiling.fmt("%d days left until April!").say
14:09 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤202 days left until April!␤»
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14:16 colomon I'm a little disturbed at the moment by how many of the trig.t tests are actually wrong....
14:17 colomon (And correspondingly, by how many of the trig implementations in Rakudo are wrong, because they are passing the tests.)
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14:25 krunen std: class A {...}; class A {}
14:25 p6eval std 28217: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of package symbol A at /tmp/yzK5PhGbLr line 1:␤------> [32mclass A {...}; class A[33m⏏[31m {}[0m␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
14:26 krunen hmm.. no predeclaration yet
14:30 frew__ what's the recommended way to get rakudo running on win32?
14:36 colomon frew__: If you download that "Padre Standalone Plus Six" thing, it has rakudo in it.
14:37 colomon Probably about a month old now, but that's the easiest way I know of to get it.
14:37 colomon rakudo: atan(:x(1))
14:37 p6eval rakudo 446d49: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'atan'␤in Main (/tmp/8Jp1xqLOyp:2)␤»
14:38 szabgab colomon, frew__  next release of Almost six is due after the next release of Rakudo
14:39 frew__ ah, cool
14:41 colomon szabgab++
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14:51 colomon As long as I'm overhauling trig stuff -- does the "named args" section of S32-trig/trig.t make sense to anyone?
14:52 colomon It's all skipped in Rakudo, and as near as I can tell, it all depends on the name of the first argument to the trig functions.
14:53 colomon Because of the way they are currently implemented in Rakudo, these tests will never pass, and they seem pretty daft to me.
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15:01 masak as a parallelism layman, I enjoyed http://research.sun.com/projects/plrg/Publications/ICFPAugust2009Steele.pdf -- perhaps others interested in parallelism will, too.
15:02 masak actually, it's enjoyable just to leaf through a talk littered with Lisp, Haskell and Fortress code. :)
15:03 frew__ colomon: if I remember correctly that's how the named args are for all the functions
15:04 frew__ colomon: I think the named args for those are silly, but I added them into the tests because they are in the spec
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15:08 colomon In the spec where?
15:09 frew__ lemme look
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15:11 frew__ http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec/S32-setting-library/Numeric.pod
15:12 frew__ method atan2 ( Num $y: Num $x = 1 ) # I figured that since it's documented, we should test it
15:14 carlin urgh, I'm getting a bunch of random seg faults
15:22 masak carlin: during spectesting?
15:23 carlin masak: Nope, while running scripts. Usually on exit after the script has run, but I had one half-way through before
15:24 masak I've had many on exit today as well.
15:24 masak less than a week 'til next release, eh? :)
15:25 colomon frew__: Next time TimToady shows up I'll check with him, but I'd be surprised if that were his intent for the rest of the trig functions.  atan2 is a very exceptional function.  :)
15:25 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:25 phenny pmichaud: 09:38Z <masak> tell pmichaud that when I run `parrot examples/pge/demo.pir`, enter 'regex a*' and then 'pir', I get a Null PMC access in get_string(). has something bitrotted?
15:25 masak pmichaud: morning. what phenny said.
15:26 pmichaud masak:  I suspect that demo.pir has indeed bitrotted
15:26 masak ok.
15:26 pmichaud better is probably to use Perl6Grammar
15:26 * pmichaud checks
15:26 colomon Good morning pmichaud!
15:27 pmichaud nopasting...
15:29 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/185365   # new way to do demo.pir stuff
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15:29 pmichaud (Perl6Grammar has a REPL :)
15:30 masak ah.
15:32 masak works fine here too. thanks.
15:32 pmichaud although something is wrong with the example I just gave -- since it's a token we shouldn't be building a stack for backtracking
15:32 masak indeed.
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15:33 brunov Hi there!
15:33 brunov I'm reading s02
15:34 brunov And either I don't quite understand something, or there seems to be an incosistency regarding embedded comments and the definition of bracket characters
15:34 masak uh huh.
15:34 masak what inconsistency?
15:34 brunov In s02, "lexical conventions", it says "Characters with no corresponding closing character do not qualify as opening brackets."
15:35 masak snowmen, for example.
15:35 masak scnr. :)
15:35 brunov further down, when defining embedded comments, it says "comments require the "#" to be followed by a backtick ("`") plus one or more opening bracketing characters."
15:35 brunov but then the third example, the embedded comment uses the character "X" as a bracket
15:36 brunov and since "X" doesn't have a closing characer, it shouldn't count as a bracket, right?
15:37 pmichaud third example isn't an "X"
15:37 brunov oh
15:37 TimToady probably missing char in your font
15:37 brunov oooooooh
15:37 brunov *_*
15:37 brunov dumb terminal
15:38 brunov sorry!
15:38 masak I see a 「 here.
15:38 brunov ok, makes sense now. Thanks everyone!
15:38 masak brunov: no problem! see if you can come upon a UTF-8-aware console.
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15:38 masak it's worth it. :)
15:39 brunov ok, I'm using Ubuntu's default, which I think it is gnome-terminal. I'll probably have to switch if I want to read these correctly. Thanks again!
15:39 * avuserow just successfully demoed a small CompSci project written in Perl 6
15:39 TimToady I use gnome-terminal with utf-8
15:40 TimToady probably just some config somewhere
15:40 TimToady LANG or something
15:40 brunov TimToady: cool, I'll definitely look into it
15:40 masak might be fonts, too.
15:40 masak avuserow: that's great! do you have the source somewhere, so we can ooh and aah?
15:41 pmichaud avuserow: or even... a blog posting?  ;-)
15:42 avuserow hm. I could blog about it. I'll just need to clean up a bit and get rid of the deadline cruft. :)
15:42 masak avuserow: just don't overdo it! release early! :)
15:43 carlin hmm, I also see an X in perldoc from gnome-terminal but 「in vim
15:43 masak vim is correct.
15:44 TimToady brunov: for the moment you might want to read the html versions under http://perlcabal.org/syn
15:47 brunov TimToady: yes, thanks! Some POD markup will be nowhere near as harmful as not having the proper characters rendered in UTF-heavy docs like these
15:47 TimToady but I understand the desire to read the pods :)
15:48 TimToady especially if you want to edit them too...
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15:48 TimToady speaking of which, do you have a commit bit to the pugs repo, where the pod is stored?
15:48 brunov I'd be happy to!
15:49 TimToady then /msg me your email and preferred nick, and I can send a commit bit
15:49 TimToady (svn nick)
15:49 brunov TimToady: I don't think so, no. I've been lurking the channel/blogs and such, but just today I decided to get started reading the synpopsys
15:49 TimToady well, it's just nice to get instant gratification when the itch to edit comes upon you, is all :)
15:50 TimToady but anyhoo, any time you want a commit bit, show up here, and someone can help, likely
15:51 * masak is re-reading the Apocalypses
15:51 colomon TimToady: Speaking of messing with the specs (and whatnot), I have just locally rewritten all the hyperbolic trig functions to allow you to specify them in degrees, gradians, etc.
15:52 colomon I decided it was more consistent, even if most sane people will probably avoid using them in anything but radians.
15:52 * pmichaud reads backscroll
15:53 TimToady colomon: more bothersome to me is all the string args where the spec uses an enum
15:53 colomon I will work on cleaning that up once the functions work right.  :)
15:53 colomon sometime next week, probably.
15:55 colomon Once my changes have more completely infected the trig.t file, it will be easy to do the switchover there.
15:57 TimToady what was the Q about atan2?
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15:58 colomon TimToady: The spec specifies a variable name for every argument to every trig function.  frew__ wrote up a bunch of tests to make sure you could use named arguments for them all.
15:59 colomon My feeling is that the only such test that really makes sense is the atan2 test, because the $x and $y arguments do not come in the natural order, and really mean something.
15:59 colomon s/test/tests/
15:59 colomon For the other functions, the $x argument is just a placeholder.
16:00 TimToady yeah, it's sort of redundant testing of a general property of the language
16:01 colomon Well, it's a test rakudo completely fails at the moment, as none of the trig functions are implemented in terms of $x.
16:02 pmichaud also Rakudo doesn't know how to accepted named arguments into positional parameters yet
16:02 pmichaud *accept
16:02 TimToady yes, it doesn't do the general property in question
16:03 colomon pmichaud: Do we intend to re-write the trig functions into that format once it does?
16:03 TimToady on the plus side, you'll get a lot more passing tests when it is implemented :)
16:03 pmichaud ...into what format?
16:03 TimToady you're confusing named args with enums
16:03 colomon pmichaud: write now it is our Num multi method acosh($base = 'radians') is export
16:04 pmichaud the 'radians' part needs to change, yes.  (more)
16:04 colomon According to the spec it should be Num multi method acosh ( Num  $x: TrigBase $base = $?TRIGBASE ) is export
16:04 pmichaud the spec is correct :-)
16:04 colomon Not the radians, the Num $x: bit
16:04 TimToady pretty much all the numeric functions try to stick with $x and $y
16:05 pmichaud yes, we'll want to do that
16:05 colomon (Even putting a space between "func" and the open parenthesis?)
16:05 pmichaud otherwise    acosh(:x(...))   won't work
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16:05 pmichaud the space isn't critical :)
16:05 colomon Then I vote we leave the tests.
16:05 colomon Though I suspect a bunch of them will need to be rewritten.
16:06 TimToady which space are you referring to, def, or call?
16:06 colomon A huge quantity of the trig tests were wrong.  I've got a big patch to push through as soon as I've run a proper spectest.  (So in a couple of hours, at current speeds.)
16:06 colomon TimToady: "func (" is what the spec says.
16:06 colomon I would have thought it would be "func(".
16:07 pmichaud I might also suggest eliminating the "Num" constraint on $x, but I'm not as picky about that.
16:07 TimToady the space doesn't matter on the definition side
16:07 colomon TimToady: Interesting and confusing.  :)
16:07 colomon pmichaud: Oh, absolutely!  We've already implemented a few of them for Any and Complex as well, after all....
16:07 TimToady I suspect common practice will eventually be to omit the space, but historically signatures have usually had the space in most languages
16:08 colomon must go eat lunch.  Back soon.  TimToady++, pmichaud++
16:10 TimToady interestinly though, on the call side, with a space sin (...) turns into a unary named prefix, not a listop, according to S03
16:11 colomon How will take interact with the function definitions?
16:12 TimToady which probably means the current multi method is wrong, and should be prefix:<func> instead, unless we change our mind about supporting traditional math notation
16:12 TimToady func() is always a function call
16:12 TimToady func ... is named unary, same as in Perl 5, for trig ops
16:12 TimToady but most of the other named unaries have gone away
16:13 TimToady don't know how confusing it would be if trig functions turned into listop precedence
16:13 TimToady it's also a little confusing if they *don't*
16:13 colomon Does that imply that the multi method should not have $base as an optional parameter?
16:14 colomon (afk again)
16:14 TimToady operators can have named args
16:14 pmichaud how about optional positionals?
16:14 TimToady but you'd have to call it either as a function, or with a :base adverb
16:14 pmichaud okay.
16:15 TimToady but if there's a good chance of calling it with multiple args with some frequency, that's a good argument for making it listop, not unary
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16:16 TimToady if the mathematicians would be happy, I wouldn't mind blowing away named unary precedence, but that's a hard "if" to predict
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16:17 TimToady it would break things like: if sin $x == 2 {...}
16:17 TimToady well, not that that would ever be true :)
16:18 Juerd Aw, but overriding sin can be so fun!
16:18 TimToady but the precedence would be surprising if sin were a listop
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16:22 avuserow masak, pmichaud: http://auzon.blogspot.com/2009/09/applying-perl-6-in-compsci-projects.html
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16:24 PerlJam avuserow: That's your blog?
16:25 avuserow Yep
16:25 PerlJam avuserow++
16:25 PerlJam and again avuserow++
16:25 avuserow @karma auzon
16:25 avuserow hm. forgot how the bots here work
16:33 pmichaud avuserow++  # nice post!
16:35 PerlJam avuserow: did you also code a perl5 solution for your prof?
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16:37 TimToady does MAIN actually work in rakudo now?
16:37 avuserow PerlJam: no. I did shell out to Perl5 in one part to handle binary data
16:37 avuserow TimToady: yes. MAIN seems to work quite well.
16:37 PerlJam avuserow: Is he going to actually run your program?
16:38 TimToady heh, dint knowit
16:38 avuserow PerlJam: no, it was strictly "do you have code?" and "did you demonstrate it?"
16:39 pmichaud ...multi MAIN works in rakudo?!?
16:39 pmichaud hmmmm.
16:39 TimToady why didn't you use gather/take instead of push?
16:39 avuserow didn't remember about gather/take
16:39 TimToady oh wait, then it wouldn't be a scripting language
16:40 TimToady it would be FP :)
16:40 TimToady ah well, tmtowtdi
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16:41 avuserow the assignments in this class are very loosely speced, so I could've done functional without them having a problem
16:42 TimToady well, I hope your prof is impressed :)
16:43 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/185407   # multi MAIN does work in Rakudo!  jnthn++
16:44 pmichaud actually, jnthn++ probably didn't even realize that the work he did caused this to start working :)
16:44 pmichaud it just falls out of the other semantics
16:44 TimToady jnthn++ and everyone-else++
16:44 pmichaud we don't do option processing yet, though
16:45 avuserow jnthn++ # for multi-dispatch, especially for MAIN
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16:49 colomon frew__++ # For adding the positional trig tests
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16:56 takadonet hey pyrimidine
16:56 pyrimidine o/
17:03 Tene pmichaud: github is going to be migrating providers soon, and it looks like the transition might not be without problems.
17:03 pmichaud Tene: url?
17:03 PerlJam It's a good thing git makes complete copies of the repo on clone  :)
17:04 Tene http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2009/engine-yard-and-github-transition/
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17:06 PerlJam "In fact, the transition from Subversion to Git has been one of the most aggressive technology transitions that I’ve ever seen!"  That's so true, but really an understatement IMHO
17:06 PerlJam (regarding rails)
17:07 pmichaud well, I don't know what sort of problems we're likely to encounter
17:07 pmichaud anyway, the rakudo account is a paid account, so hopefully it'll get a measure of improved service over a free one
17:10 Tene pmichaud: Sure.  Ideally, there won't be any problems.
17:10 Tene Just wanted you to not be surprised if they have problems running on the new provider during th emiddle of the release, or something.
17:10 pmichaud is there a transition date published somewhere?
17:11 Tene I can't find it mentioned anywhere on github's website.
17:11 pmichaud Me neither.
17:13 Tene Although, that post is about an hour old.
17:13 pmichaud well, we'll keep an eye on it.  :)
17:13 pmichaud I suspect neither github nor engineyard want any black eyes here :)
17:15 Tene I'm a little bit irked by "... we didn’t want to subsidize that quota for non-Ruby developers."
17:15 pmichaud really? why?
17:16 frew__ I agree
17:17 frew__ well, they seem to have billed themselves as free for all Open Source is all
17:17 pmichaud github did that, not engineyard
17:18 frew__ I think I misunderstood soemthing
17:18 frew__ EY doesn't own GH?
17:18 pmichaud EY *hosts* GH
17:18 frew__ ok
17:18 frew__ my bad
17:18 pmichaud I don't think they own them.
17:18 frew__ I take it back
17:18 frew__ they can subsidize whoever they want then
17:18 frew__ :-)
17:18 pmichaud afaict, engine yard has been providing free(ish) server hosting for github
17:19 frew__ got it
17:20 Tene pmichaud: I don't actually object, and they can do whatever they want, it just sounded a little weird...
17:20 pmichaud EngineYard is explicitly a ruby site for ruby-hosting.
17:21 frew__ I think that for those of us not intimate with EY, GH, and rails the article is hard to understand
17:21 frew__ right
17:21 pmichaud I think it would be very hard to write an article that is easily understood.  :)
17:21 frew__ I'm not criticizing
17:21 pmichaud it will be interesting to see what github has to say about it :)
17:21 frew__ I'm saying we are on the outside so it makes it hard
17:21 pmichaud sure
17:22 pmichaud anyway, as I said, Rakudo has a paid account, so hopefully we'll get some special care
17:22 frew__ do we need special care with anything?
17:22 pmichaud I'd like to make sure we have as few service interruptions as possible :)
17:22 frew__ ah, right
17:23 Tene github and Engine Yard often disagree with each other, from what I've seen.  GitHub posts announcements saying "We're down because of engineyard fails" and engineyard responds with "No, you're down because your app can't scale and will fail entirely when doing more than two repository exports at a time"
17:23 pmichaud or, put another way, github isn't likely to be around long if they annoy their paying customers :)
17:23 frew__ you know you could do a mirror to gitorious or something, and because git works the way it does it would be easy to just mirror back and forth
17:24 frew__ I think that's what Moose does (athough it's shadowcat instead of gitorious)
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17:36 pugs_svn r28218 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Try to create proper test cases for the "forward" hyperbolic trig functions, as well as a tan and cotan.
17:36 colomon Okay, I've just pushed the morning's big trig patch.  :)
17:36 colomon If my $work continues to involve long compiles, there may be an afternoon patch as well.
17:37 dalek rakudo: 84296e4 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/setting/Num.pm:
17:37 dalek rakudo: Fix implementations of the "forward" trig functions.
17:37 dalek rakudo: Other than sin, cos, and tan, most of the forward trig functions were broken.  This patch fixes all the broken ones I have spotted thus far.  Corresponding massive overhaul to trig.t, which just appears to have been flat out wrong for many of the functions.
17:37 dalek rakudo: Note that many if not most of the inverse trig functions remain broken.
17:37 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/84296e43d89488073be442486b66e38abf2164ef
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18:04 TimToady phenny: tell masak, I particularly like the slide with "(this step requires ingenuity)" which is obviously the ??? before Profit!
18:04 phenny TimToady: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
18:05 colomon Is there a way to make git automatically do a git diff --check before committing?  Apparently I cannot remember that on my own...
18:10 TimToady phenny: tell masak also, we're missing the list split primitive; I wonder if two more or slurpy arrays in a binding should auto-split a list
18:10 phenny TimToady: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
18:12 Tene colomon: chmod +x .git/hooks/pre-commit
18:15 colomon Oooooooooo
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18:17 colomon Tene++  # I'd have known it myself if I'd just read the next chapter of Pro Git.  :)
18:17 __ash__ Is the right way to multi-thread in Parrot a Task?
18:17 colomon Wow, easy to set up client side hooks might be enough to get me to switch to git for work.
18:18 Tene __ash__: no, not as I recall.
18:18 Tene My vague memory is that tasks are run in the same thread they were created from, usually, in parrot right now.
18:19 __ash__ ah, okay, i was reading http://docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/docs/pdds/pdd25_concurrency.pod.html and it gave me that impression
18:19 Tene you want to use a ParrotThread.
18:19 Tene __ash__: *please* feel free to try it and let me know what you find out.
18:20 __ash__ I was planning doing some tests with it, making Tasks and all in parrot
18:20 Tene I was rathe runable to sort out the various bugs with Threads and HLLs in Parrot the other day. :(
18:20 __ash__ I'll let you know, i have been reading over that and the tests and the Task core stuff, to see what I can learn, just thought i'd ask in case someone knew already
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18:29 pugs_svn r28219 | lwall++ | [S06] supply missing list splitting primitive as a form of binding, masak++ for
18:29 pugs_svn r28219 | cf  http://research.sun.com/projects/plrg/Publications/ICFPAugust2009Steele.pdf
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18:35 __ash__ from PIR can you get a block as a function pointer? like a pointy block?
18:36 TimToady phenny: tell ruoso please read the Guy Steele slides mentioned above and think about hyper iterators in terms of balanced (more or less) list splitting
18:36 phenny TimToady: I'll pass that on when ruoso is around.
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18:55 __ash__ Tene: yeah, Tasks's aren't parallelized by default, they go to the built in schedule of the current instance of parrot and lets parrot do whatever it wants, so you can make a schedule that uses green threads or pthreads or forks or whatever you want, kind of nice i guess, but if you want a real posix thread then you have to use parrotthread
18:59 Tene __ash__: did you figure out the block thing?
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20:13 dalek rakudo: 3b63817 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
20:13 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 436 files, 14267 (69.2% of 20603) pass, 5 fail
20:13 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
20:13 dalek rakudo: S32-str/samecase.rakudo aborted 5 test(s)
20:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3b6381761a44cb1865c8063a9e57bd0fe0ba4171
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20:33 __ash__ Tene, no i never figured out the block thing
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20:34 Tene __ash__: are you in #parrot on irc.perl.org ?
20:34 __ash__ no, irc.perl.org likes to get mad at me, sometimes wheni connect from my school campus it just hangs, i'll try
20:34 lisppaste3 tene pasted "parrotthread example for __ash__" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86957
20:40 __ash__ Tene: do you know how to get a block's invoke function in perl6? like, specifically what I am doing is a simple async function that takes a block and then gives it to your example to execute
20:41 payload joined #perl6
20:41 lisppaste3 tene pasted "Perl 6 async implementation for __ash__" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86958
20:41 Tene __ash__: like that?
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20:48 __ash__ yeah, like that, i didn't know you could do it that way, intersting
20:49 Tene __ash__: you don't even need the inline PIR... I just used that so I coul dmake a parrotthread.
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20:50 __ash__ hm... thats a lovely debug message
20:51 Tene __ash__: oh, by the way, that doesn't work.
20:51 Tene Because of Parrot's current problems with threads.
20:51 __ash__ thats the wrong way to do it?
20:51 Tene forgot to mention that...
20:51 Tene __ash__: it's the right way to do it, but Parrot is broken.
20:51 __ash__ okay, thats what I was curious about
20:52 __ash__ anyone have any ideas about whats going on?
20:52 __ash__ is it that ParrotThread run_clones from within a HLL don't retain the HLL?
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20:57 Tene __ash__: the problem is that Parrot just does the wrong thing when it's trying to clone the interpreter.
20:57 __ash__ but didn't the pure PIR version work?
20:58 Tene __ash__: the pir version I posted earlier does a lot less.
20:58 Tene It doesn't have PIR classes, it doesn't have any dynamic libraries loaded...
20:58 Tene and those are the two things that I've run into it failing to copy correctly.
20:59 Tene When it enters the code path that's supposed to copy those, it does something broken instead, or runs into some data it' snot expecting, o rsomething.  Those code paths are completely untested, afaict.
21:00 __ash__ Hmmm, sounds like some simple tests would be helpful then, so, its specicially dynlibs and PIR classes?
21:00 Tene __ash__: I'm not entirely sure of the details.  For the former, look at ticket 757 in parrot's trac.
21:00 Tene for the latter, add this at the beginning of the .pir:
21:01 Tene .loadlib 'libsqlite3'
21:01 Tene or any other .so on your system
21:02 __ash__ hm... mine didn't crash, i ran it 3 times, i added the .loadlib outside of the main sub though, should it be inside the main sub?
21:02 Tene no, outside.
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21:04 Tene try adding this as the first line inside the main sub:
21:04 Tene .include 'test_more.pir'
21:04 __ash__ What system are you on btw? I am on OS X
21:04 Tene linux x86_64
21:04 __ash__ do i need to touch a test_more.pir?
21:05 Tene no, it will be loaded from Parrot's include directory.
21:05 __ash__ alright
21:05 Tene do you actually have libsqlite3.so ?
21:05 __ash__ that one failed for me
21:05 __ash__ yeah, i have libsqlite3.so
21:05 Tene Hmm.
21:06 Tene The issue revealed by including test_more.pir has a possible fix in a pair of patches on tt757
21:06 Tene I don't understand what's going on well enough to be confident applying them.
21:06 __ash__ i have /opt/local/lib/libsqlite3.dylib and /usr/lib/libsqlite3.dylib (OS X uses .dylib not .so)
21:06 * Tene nods.
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21:37 pugs_svn r28220 | fglock++ | mp6 - simplified 'make' inside tokens
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22:16 jdv79 just wondering if stream and exception mgmt is better in p6?
22:17 pmichaud Yes.
22:17 TimToady but define "stream"
22:18 jdv79 handles like pipes and file handles
22:18 TimToady and then define "and"
22:18 jdv79 they are only related in my mind cause i've hit annoyances in p5 with them
22:18 jdv79 they are not related.  just grouped in the same question.
22:18 TimToady whew! :)
22:20 TimToady any particular annoyances you want to know about?
22:21 TimToady esp with streams, since we think we have the exceptions very much under control
22:21 jdv79 just capturing, redirecting, and tying them.  esp. the STD handles.
22:22 TimToady most of that now falls naturally out of "context variables"
22:23 jdv79 it seems like the abstraction isn't high enough so different ways of seemingly doing the same thing cause odd errors
22:23 TimToady well, there will always be issues syncronizing the abstractions with the various OSes ideas of concrete
22:24 TimToady *synchronizing
22:24 jdv79 i did see a blurb about context vars lately.  sounds very nice.
22:24 TimToady certainly redireciton we can do on a subcall by subcall basis
22:24 TimToady and filehandles are just objects, so it's pretty easy to substitute anything else that implements the correct roles
22:25 TimToady filehandles aren't "special" symbols like they are in P5
22:25 jdv79 ok, thanks.  that's what i was looking for.
22:26 TimToady and file operations tend to map nicely into lazy lists, if you want them to
22:26 TimToady however, p6 will be a little pickier about expicitly closing files for the same reason
22:26 TimToady *explicitly
22:27 TimToady otherwise it gets really easy to get race conditions in a lazy language
22:28 TimToady and you can't rely on timely destruction to close your files when you might be running on a random GC on a random VM
22:28 TimToady tradeoffs...
22:29 jdv79 makes sense.
22:30 TimToady basically, anything transactional should be orthogonal to control flow, as much as possible
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22:31 TimToady hopefully we can give support for transactions that looks like control flow, however
22:31 TimToady see STM and such
22:32 mikehh rakudo (3b63817) builds on parrot r41220 - make test PASS / make spectest (up to 28220) FAIL - Ubuntu 9,04 i386 (g++)
22:32 mikehh rakudo - 1 direct fail - t/spec/S12-introspection/walk.rakudo - Non-zero exit status: 1 - Parse errors: Bad plan.  You planned 10 tests but ran 8.
22:32 mikehh rakudo - ./perl6 t/spec/S12-introspection/walk.rakudo - fails with (after ok 8):
22:32 mikehh rakudo - set_pmc() not implemented in class 'Failure'
22:32 mikehh rakudo - in regex _block424 (t/spec/S12-introspection/walk.rakudo:92)
22:32 mikehh rakudo - called from method Perl6Object::WALK (src/gen_setting.pm:1871)
22:32 mikehh rakudo - called from Main (t/spec/S12-introspection/walk.rakudo:94)
22:32 mikehh rakudo - t/spec/S03-operators/arith.rakudo - TODO passed:   131
22:32 mikehh rakudo - I got 112 tests PASSing but exiting with Non-zero wait status: 11
22:32 jdv79 i thought STM was dropped for now cause it was too much
22:32 TimToady talking evenutalities here
22:33 TimToady *eventualities
22:33 mikehh on amd64 I got  - t/spec/S03-operators/arith.rakudo - TODO passed:   120, 131-132
22:33 TimToady we want to get to a model where transactions can be written on top of an underlying event model
22:34 mikehh so 120 and 132 don't pass on i386
22:34 TimToady much like a TCP connection doesn't have to worry about the underlying back-and-forth
22:35 TimToady but it's a long-term vision, I suspect
22:35 TimToady we will have to build it up post-6.0.0, I think
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22:39 TimToady basically, we'd like to take a monadic view of transactions as a computation of a series of events, but hopefully hiding the mental anguish of your typical monadic languages
22:40 sharada TimToady: by using delimited continuations?
22:42 TimToady perhaps, this is all subject to negotiation as we go forward, and our understanding of the problem matures from the viewpoint of the naive programmer
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22:54 jdv79 wait, so how will scope guards be done then?
23:12 TimToady depends on what you mean by "scope guards", I suppose
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23:17 Caliginous_ Hi!
23:17 Caliginous_ is there perl mod to do same shit as flashgot or flashget?
23:18 jdv79 do x when this block is "done"
23:18 Caliginous_ done?
23:18 jdv79 upon exiting a scope run x
23:18 Caliginous_ where do I fine done?
23:19 jdv79 there is no done
23:19 donri joined #perl6
23:20 donri can you do something similar to inheritance and/or mixins with grammars?
23:21 TimToady yes, grammars are just classes that happen to be based on cursors
23:22 TimToady Caliginous_: in Perl 6 there will be a LEAVE block.  were you asking about Perl 5 or Perl 6?
23:22 Caliginous_ no!
23:22 Caliginous_ is there perl mod to do same shit as flashgot or flashget?
23:23 Caliginous_ or can I run flashgot from Mozilla::Mechanize?
23:23 TimToady are you asking about Perl 5 or Perl 6?
23:23 diakopter Caliginous_: I wrote a Perl 5 script to do multithreaded downloading (using WWW::Curl::Multi) but it works on win32 only afaik.
23:23 lambdabot diakopter: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:23 donri TimToady: cursors?
23:24 TimToady donri: abstraction of a match state in a particular language
23:24 Caliginous_ I ried that
23:24 Caliginous_ it said no messages
23:24 donri roger
23:25 TimToady but all token/rule/regex are really just methods, given that base
23:25 jaldhar joined #perl6
23:26 TimToady they're just always called on a cursor, and always return a cursor
23:26 TimToady but there are certainly ways of attaching other information to such a cursor, which is how we get match trees and ASTs
23:28 donri TimToady: can i treat a grammar both as a class and a role or just either?
23:45 donri also means you can have methods and attributes in a grammar huh?
23:48 s1n joined #perl6

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