Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-09-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 tak11 joined #perl6
00:09 lisppaste3 diakopter annotated #87203 "yamlized 2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/87203#1
00:10 diakopter that's what it looks like without the ::Dumps
00:10 diakopter down in the ...
00:11 s1n pmichaud: i replied about the scheduling (second sat. after dallas.p6m is this weekend), let me know what you want to do
00:12 diakopter I guess if it's a Double_Double, it should always descend into .nibble
00:12 diakopter (afk )
00:16 pugs_svn r28265 | lwall++ | [viv] properly hoist EXPR fields, diakopter++
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00:18 dalek rakudo: fed7b0e | pmichaud++ | build/Makefile.in:
00:18 dalek rakudo: Add Mapping.pm to setting (missing from b29506b commit).
00:18 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​ed7b0ebbe10e1bd6e58b89acbaed5096214fb0f
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00:20 TimToady diakopter: say(1+2) was just a stupid bug--hoist didn't return it's %r
00:20 TimToady so you should have more annotations in the outer node now
00:20 ihrd left #perl6
00:22 TimToady *its
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00:43 TimToady diakopter: working on a decent sub nibbler to bypass the AUTOLOAD botch
00:44 dukeleto joined #perl6
00:49 diakopter oo cool
00:54 dalek rakudo: c52c780 | pmichaud++ | perl6.pir:
00:54 dalek rakudo: Work around inferior loop problem causing segfault on exit.
00:54 dalek rakudo: (Based on information from Whiteknight++)
00:54 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​52c780cf945aa6a55ab51530cfe694be61a6d10
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01:06 TimToady dinner &
01:27 wolverian joined #perl6
01:34 diakopter STD/viv seems ... faster ... with those last commits
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01:41 diakopter vijs: say(say(3))
01:41 p6eval vijs 28265: OUTPUT«3␤1␤␤   time in interpreter: 0.012802 s␤»
01:52 s1n diakopter: what's vijs?
01:54 s1n diakopter: emits JS from p6?
01:54 diakopter uses Larry's STD parser in Perl 5; emits its AST to JS; interpreter walks the AST
01:54 diakopter could be a "definitional" interpreter eventually... slow of course without optimization phases.
01:55 s1n interesting
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02:22 colomon pmichaud, moritz_: The post office bounced my CLA.  Is the Hillsboro, OR 97123 address still correct for the Perl Foundation?
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02:39 jrtayloriv I'm trying to understand this rule --> http://pastebin.com/d61f15c2  ... The first line of the rule says to look for zero or more <command_or_definition>s, but I don't understand what [ $ || <panic: 'Syntax error'> ]  saying. It seems from the context that it is somehow saying "if you didn't find any <commmand_or_definition>s, then something is wrong -- exception", but I don't see how it works.
02:41 pugs_svn r28266 | diakopter++ | [vijs] better not-implemented error msg
02:41 arnsholt jrtayloriv: $ means end-of-string
02:42 arnsholt So if it doesn't find the end-of-string marker after the program, it invokes the panic routine (|| is the same as | in p5 regex)
02:45 jrtayloriv arnsholt, What is "end-of-string" marker? How would it not be present?
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02:47 diakopter it means if <command_or_definition>* failed to consume all of the input (and then it looked for the eof but didn't find it), there must be a syntax error
02:48 jrtayloriv diakopter, Oh, I see. So all that [ $ || <panic: 'Syntax error'> ] is getting is leftovers from the <command_or_definition>* match ... and since there shouldn't be leftovers, we die horribly.
02:48 jrtayloriv Thanks :)
02:49 diakopter yw
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02:56 jrtayloriv diakopter, So the point where [ $ || <panic: 'Syntax error'> ] would be matched (and panic() called) is when it reaches the end of the first line of whatever is left of the input after <command_or_definition>* , correct?
02:56 diakopter probably not linewise..?
02:57 diakopter it would panic at the beginning of whatever input wasn't consumed
03:00 jrtayloriv Oops -- I see. That was just me, being stupid ... nevermind.
03:10 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1);
03:10 p6eval rakudo c52c78: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
03:17 pmichaud colomon: as far as I know that address is the correct one.
03:20 dalek rakudo: 2eca8b3 | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2009-09:
03:20 dalek rakudo: More announcement updates for the release.
03:20 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​eca8b3e16567a6478bbab68046c95698e8fd19d
03:20 dalek rakudo: ea6448f | pmichaud++ | docs/ChangeLog:
03:20 dalek rakudo: More ChangeLog updates.
03:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​a6448f6be457b81b318589557153deb13fe5f9c
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04:11 dukeleto seen jnthn
04:33 dukeleto jnthn: ping!
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04:39 pugs_svn r28267 | lwall++ | [my.t] missing ;
04:41 pugs_svn r28268 | lwall++ | [viv] fix up nibbler's AST node a bit
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05:00 * diakopter reprecompiles STD
05:03 diakopter that'll be perfect for topping the day's irclog.
05:03 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
05:03 pugs_svn r28269 | diakopter++ | [viv] extrude extraneous Dumps
05:04 diakopter er, or not.  silly timezones.
05:12 dalek joined #perl6
05:13 dukeleto diakopter: good localtime() :)
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05:22 dukeleto cognominal: ping!
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06:55 moritz_ good morning
06:56 dalek rakudo: 73a3952 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
06:56 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 436 files, 15497 (71.5% of 21671) pass, 0 fail
06:56 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​3a3952d0a858cc9e27a2afc402005b5a04bbc95
06:56 dalek rakudo: 8effbb7 | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2009-09:
06:56 dalek rakudo: Update announcement with spectest results.
06:56 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8​effbb76af85f1dff0173f7290a16a0a2fb79387
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07:18 dukeleto moritz_: howdy
07:18 dukeleto a good morning (for a release) it is. at least in some timezone
07:18 moritz_ dukeleto: oh hai
07:19 moritz_ at least for some people ;-)
07:19 moritz_ (not a very good morning health-wise for me)
07:19 dukeleto moritz_: blizkost now passes lots of tests (including most of t/base from the perl 5 test suite) : http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2009/09​/blizkost-is-passing-102-tests.html
07:20 dukeleto moritz_: sorry to hear that.
07:20 moritz_ cool
07:20 moritz_ never mind, will be fine tomorrow again
07:20 jnthn dukeleto: omg wow
07:20 dukeleto jnthn: there you are :)
07:21 jnthn dukeleto: Just invoking the blizkost exe?
07:21 dukeleto jnthn: i can't seem to do "make blizkost", but parrot ./perl5.pir t/foo.t works
07:21 dukeleto jnthn: see http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/issues#issue/10
07:22 dukeleto jnthn: as well as "make test"
07:22 jnthn I think the makefile is probably wonky.
07:22 moritz_ it is
07:22 moritz_ yesterday when a PMC changed, a 'make' didn't update anything
07:23 jnthn aye, I noticed such oddness.
07:23 jnthn Patches welcome...
07:23 dukeleto moritz_: oh noes. if I can't trust "make", who *will* I trust ?
07:23 jnthn I'll try and fix it in a bit if nobody else does though.
07:23 jnthn It's an annoying bug.
07:24 dukeleto moritz_: gmake is also required on FreeBSD  but the Configure.pl doesn't know about that
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07:26 moritz_ the blizkost@exe@ does not depend on any PMCs
07:27 dukeleto that seems not-so-good
07:28 moritz_ only "build" (the default target) depends on $(BLIZKOST_GROUP)
07:28 jnthn ah
07:28 jnthn That'd perhaps be why.
07:28 moritz_ maybe it would be saner to delegate build to blizkost@exe@
07:28 moritz_ and make the latter depend on $(BLIZKOST_GROUP)
07:29 dukeleto jnthn: do you have any comments re: http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​31c95e946ad3a299c6e1d161d7e4271b041bb938 ?
07:29 dukeleto jnthn: should we use Test::More in the test suite? Test.pm works
07:30 jnthn dukeleto: Hmm, not sure off hand.
07:30 jnthn Basically though, things to keep in mind are:
07:30 jnthn 1) Some tests in whatever are better than no tests at all.
07:31 jnthn 2) While tests for integration with other specific HLLs are OK, we probably want to be doing a bunch of tests from PIR, since this is aimed at being a compat layer for Perl 5 / Parrot, not just Perl 5 / Rakudo.
07:32 dukeleto jnthn: understood. Next up, PIR tests.
07:33 jnthn The real hard debugging task ATM is fixing the segfault I mentioned in http://github.com/jnthn/blizkost/commit/​3891cf4896674eb76312392dea5ebf6bff439e83
07:34 moritz_ another problem with the Makefile
07:34 moritz_ clean:
07:34 jnthn If that can be fixed, then we'll be starting to be useful.
07:34 moritz_ $(MAKE) $(PMC_DIR) clean
07:34 moritz_ shouldn't that be $(MAKE) -C ($PMC_DIR) clean?
07:34 moritz_ is the -C option mostly understood by the different make utilities?
07:35 jnthn Not sure - that bit for sure came from the make language shell tool.
07:36 moritz_ what it does currently is nonesense
07:37 pmichaud ugh, make_language shell is evil.  :-)
07:37 pmichaud I much prefer rakudo's approach :)
07:37 pmichaud (which avoids the recursive makefiles)
07:42 moritz_ oh, now I understand
07:42 moritz_ MAKE := make -C
07:42 pmichaud that seems evil also :)
07:42 moritz_ that explains a lot
07:42 pmichaud (which is why I didn't use it for rakudo)
07:43 pmichaud also, the make language shell tool depends on Parrot's configure scripts
07:43 * jnthn popping to Osaka for a bit - back later
07:45 * pmichaud popping to bed for a bit... back later
07:46 mberends joined #perl6
07:48 pugs_svn r28270 | lwall++ | [numeric.t] syntax error
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07:53 mberends Good morning! Aww - I just missed a useful discussion about make. My �0.02 worth is that building a Windows Rakudo with the Strawberry toolchain works if mingw32-make is renamed to make. I tried patching build/gen_parrot.pl to accept alternative names for make, as per [particle]++'s suggestion, but so far those builds still fail. The name 'make' is probably hardcoded somewhere down the line. :-(
07:55 moritz_ mberends: it seems to me that build/gen_parrot.pl uses whatever parrot uses for $make
07:56 moritz_ mberends: at which point does the build fail?
07:57 zamolxes joined #perl6
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08:00 moritz_ mberends: what's the entry for make in parrot/config_lib.pasm
08:00 moritz_ s/\\/?/
08:00 mberends moritz_: I'm away from that machine atm, will look again soon. I was trying to work around the parrot/config_lib.pasm:242, which is hardcoded "make"
08:00 moritz_ oh.
08:01 moritz_ that's a parrot configure bug then
08:01 mberends it seems we need to consider gmake, nmake and mingw32-make as well
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08:02 moritz_ afaict config_lib.pasm is generated by parrot's Configure
08:02 moritz_ the correct solution is to have it set a proper entry for P0["make"]
08:03 moritz_ mberends: shall we take that to #parrot?
08:03 mberends moritz_: sure, and I'll move to the Windows machine with the problem
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08:30 klaus_ good morning
08:31 moritz_ hello
08:31 klaus_ the perl6 wiki has problems?
08:31 klaus_ some broken links
08:32 moritz_ which wiki? there are several :/
08:32 klaus_ like: http://www.perlfoundation.org/sta​tic/2.14.7.2/html/index.cgi?smop
08:32 klaus_ moritz_: perlfoundation
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08:32 moritz_ klaus_: ok. Where did you find that link?
08:32 klaus_ several wikis, thats bad ;-)
08:33 moritz_ aye
08:33 moritz_ oh, I see
08:33 klaus_ http://www.perlfoundation.org/p​erl6/index.cgi?#implementations
08:33 moritz_ that's *very* bad
08:33 moritz_ so all internal links are broken
08:34 moritz_ I'll see if I can find somebody to report to
08:34 klaus_ moritz_: thanks
08:35 sjohnson hi all
08:36 moritz_ hi
08:36 sjohnson hi moritz_
08:37 sjohnson been away in India for the last week
08:37 sjohnson missed programming in Perl :]
08:37 Matt-W Morning
08:39 sjohnson hi matt!
09:01 klaus_ moritz_: you may ask Martin Berends
09:01 klaus_ http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index​.cgi?action=revision_compare&amp;page_nam​e=perl_6&amp;mode=source&amp;Button=Compa​re+Revisions&amp;new_revision_id=20090916​122503&amp;old_revision_id=20090720163017
09:03 moritz_ mberends: feel hilighted
09:03 moritz_ mberends: did you replace those links manually, or was that some wiki software hiccup?
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09:22 viklund o/ masak
09:23 masak viklund: \o
09:24 masak viklund: thanks to Tene++, I have pretty good db support in Web.pm now. you could check out Squerl if you want.
09:25 viklund nice ;)
09:25 ejs joined #perl6
09:25 viklund Squerl?
09:25 viklund as in squirrel?
09:25 masak viklund: it's already sufficiently implemented to start thinking about trying to move November over to it.
09:25 masak viklund: yes, I learned "Squirrel" is one of the pronunciations of "SQL" :)
09:25 viklund masak: sounds good, november really needs some love (features)
09:26 masak and bugfixes...
09:26 masak to be honest, I've sort of been holding out for November (the month).
09:26 viklund yep, but it's still up, I think this is the longest time w/o crash ever!
09:26 masak \o/
09:26 masak stability, here we come!
09:26 viklund otoh I don't know if it has been that much used...
09:27 masak maybe not.
09:27 viklund last change was 88 days ago by lichtkind...
09:32 masak lichtkind++
09:34 viklund btw masak, have you seen lichtkind++ around lately?
09:34 viklund (or anyone else for that matter)
09:34 viklund hmm,
09:34 masak not really.
09:34 moritz_ 5 days ago in #perlde
09:34 viklund thx moritz++
09:34 masak FBI finally got to him, huh?
09:35 viklund masak, that was mean
09:35 masak sorry :/
09:35 viklund (but funny)
09:35 masak :)
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09:41 flip913 quit
09:41 flip913 sorry
09:41 flip913 ESC is not / in IRC
09:41 masak flip913: you can log out anytime, but you can never leave :)
09:41 flip913 :wq doesn't work either
09:42 moritz_ masak: lol, I just thought exactly the same
09:42 flip913 masak: yes, thanks ;-)
09:42 moritz_ then try :x ;-)
09:43 * mberends asks forgiveness for breaking http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi
09:44 moritz_ mberends: just fix it ;-) did you really change all these links manually?
09:44 mberends moritz_: that was a page edit via FireFox. I'd better just undo it.
09:45 moritz_ mberends: ok, I thought it was wiki software fail (not quite impossible with socialtext--)
09:47 moritz_ reqamst: I see you pushed things to your fork of tufte - just wanted to tell you that you have commit privs to my copy, so you can push directly (IMHO it makes things easier, because I don't have to watch the fork queue)
09:48 mberends moritz_: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi reverted
09:48 moritz_ mberends++
09:49 azawawi joined #perl6
09:49 azawawi hi
09:49 masak o/
09:50 azawawi masak: I finally got my November membership card :)
09:50 masak azawawi: great! viklund++
09:50 azawawi indeed viklund++
09:50 viklund viklund--, it took me 8 days...
09:51 moritz_ reqamst: ah, I see you just tested, so never mind
09:51 azawawi viklund: better late than never, viklund++ :)
09:51 masak indeed viklund-- :P
09:51 masak lunch &
09:51 moritz_ viklund: if you're happy to hand out your github API key I can make hugme add committers to november
09:52 moritz_ hugme: list projects
09:52 hugme moritz_: I know about these projects: json, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte
09:52 viklund moritz_: sounds like a good idea
09:52 viklund once I had lunch
09:53 jauaor left #perl6
09:53 azawawi moritz_: could you please add #sdl to your wonderful irc logger? :)
09:53 moritz_ azawawi: which network? perl or freenode?
09:53 azawawi moritz_: on perl
09:53 azawawi moritz_ i think let me double check
09:54 azawawi moritz_: yup irc.perl.org
09:54 moritz_ viklund: ok, when you're back from lunch you need to /msg me the API token from https://github.com/account and tell me who should have the powers to add new committers
09:55 azawawi moritz_: many thanks :)
09:55 moritz_ azawawi: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/sdl/today at your service - please announce the logs in the channel
09:56 moritz_ (it'll take a day or so to update the index pages, they are heavily cached)
09:56 azawawi moritz_: cool
09:56 azawawi moritz_++
10:00 azawawi moritz_: done.
10:00 azawawi moritz_: Let the Perl sdl games begin :)
10:00 moritz_ ++
10:16 M_o_C joined #perl6
10:18 moritz_ bah, github seems down
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10:46 masak github had DDoS issues yesterday.
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10:53 moritz_ hugme: show november
10:53 hugme moritz_: the following people have power over 'november': TimToady, [particle], masak, moritz_, pmichaud, viklund. URL: http://github.com/viklund/november/
10:54 masak moritz_++ hugme++
10:54 moritz_ and viklund++
10:56 mikehh rakudo (8effbb7) builds on parrot r41317 - make test PASS / make spectest (up to 28270) FAIL - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
10:56 mikehh rakudo - t/spec/S05-capture/caps.t - Non-zero wait status: 11 - Parse errors: Bad plan.  You planned 21 tests but ran 19
10:56 mikehh rakudo - it passes ./perl6 t/spec/S05-capture/caps.t however - also
10:56 mikehh rakudo - make t/spec/S05-capture/caps.t fails with the same error (ran both at least 3 times) and note
10:56 mikehh rakudo (8effbb7) builds on parrot r41312 - make test / make spectest (up to 28270) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64
10:57 moritz_ ah, that's a post-1.6 parrot
10:57 mikehh moritz_: yes
11:01 masak another candidate for porting to Perl 6: http://www.yuml.me/diagram/class/samples
11:01 masak I'd like both an offline version and an URL-based web service.
11:02 moritz_ once you have an offline version, the URL version is not too hard
11:05 moritz_ I've never been much of an UML fan myself
11:06 moritz_ but I'd like to have a nice tool for plotting graphs
11:06 moritz_ 'dia' (the gnome project) is quite nice, but somehow the graphs it produces are always ugly
11:12 masak we talked about over lunch today how there are no sweet-spot FOSS UML makers out there.
11:12 masak there one we've tried are either ugly or unstable.
11:13 * moritz_ not surprised
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11:19 cognominal say eval(  'sub A::t { $_[1]->{a}  };   bless {}, A', :lang<perl5> ).t( { :a<ok> } )
11:19 cognominal rakudo: say eval(  'sub A::t { $_[1]->{a}  };   bless {}, A', :lang<perl5> ).t( { :a<ok> } )
11:19 p6eval rakudo 8effbb: OUTPUT«Method 't' not found for invocant of class 'Nil'␤»
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11:29 Mimir joined #perl6
11:31 Mimir Hello, I don't know much Perl 6 but I'd like to contribute to the development process. How can I help?
11:32 moritz_ Mimir: hello and welcome to Perl 6
11:32 moritz_ Mimir: what are your skills? what would you like to do?
11:32 moritz_ we need people who write applications and libraries, people who write tests, websites, compilers, documentation, ....
11:33 moritz_ art work, good ideas - there's nothing we can't need ;-)
11:33 Mimir Well, I know Perl 5, Haskell, and some C. How about tests? What's the right way to go about that?
11:34 moritz_ http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=780001 here KyleHa describes his experience with adding tests
11:35 Mimir Okay, thanks.
11:35 moritz_ if you want to write tests, you need a commit bit for the repository where the tests live
11:35 moritz_ if you tell (or /msg) me your email address, I can give you access
11:36 Mimir kodiarfer@warpmail.net
11:36 moritz_ Mimir: you should get mail within the next few minutes
11:37 Mimir Got it! Very good, very good.
11:37 moritz_ you can obtain the test suite with 'svn checkout http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs'
11:37 synth joined #perl6
11:37 moritz_ it's a custom to add your name to the AUTHORS file to test your commit bit
11:39 Mimir Guess I'll have to learn how to use SVN first, heh.
11:39 moritz_ aye, but it's not much that you need most of the time
11:39 Mimir Works for me.
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11:58 dalek rakudo: 4de8215 | (Martin Berends)++ | src/builtins/globals.pir:
11:58 dalek rakudo: [builtins/globals.pir] for ~/.perl6/lib use $HOMEDRIVE$HOMEPATH if $HOME does
11:58 dalek rakudo: not exist (on Windows)
11:58 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​de8215e2ac7c8699c791f983aa55eb28f7cda4a
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12:20 viklund oops, p6ism in p5: for (<>)
12:20 viklund (technically a hybrid)
12:21 moritz_ <> is forbidden in Perl 6
12:21 moritz_ std: <>
12:21 p6eval std 28270: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Obsolete use of <>; in Perl 6 please use lines() or () instead at /tmp/63lP0ucfnu line 1:␤------> [32m<[33m⏏[31m>[0m␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
12:30 viklund aye
12:30 viklund eject?
12:30 moritz_ eject? what do you mean by that?
12:31 viklund or what is that yellow symbol?
12:31 viklund in the std output
12:31 moritz_ yes
12:31 moritz_ $ echo ⏏ | utf8-dump
12:31 moritz_ \N{EJECT SYMBOL}
12:31 moritz_ very handy ;-)
12:31 viklund ha
12:32 viklund utf8-dump, where can I get that?
12:32 moritz_ http://perlgeek.de/blog-en​/perl-tips/utf8-dump.html
12:33 moritz_ no rocket science really
12:33 viklund thx
12:34 viklund well, you need to know it's there
12:34 viklund usually that is the hard part
12:34 moritz_ aye
12:35 * moritz_ doesn't feel sufficiently productive for coding, but maybe it's enough for blogging
12:36 moritz_ or maybe I should work on perl6.org instead
12:39 * masak is blogging
12:39 * Matt-W is trying to focus his mind on his afternoon's task
12:40 moritz_ I found blogging much easier when you actually did something you can blog about ;-)
12:41 hanekomu joined #perl6
12:45 Matt-W moritz_: yes, it is :)
12:56 moritz_ ok, I'm working on perl6.org now
12:56 moritz_ the idea is to make the design of the sub pages so horrible that others can't stand it and chime in with a better design
12:58 arnsholt Sounds like an excellent plan =)
12:58 Matt-W lol
12:59 Matt-W I'm trying to make a web page piled high with JavaScript work in IE6...
12:59 moritz_ make a single XMLHttpRequest which returns a rendered version of that page as .jpg ;-)
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13:04 Matt-W lol
13:04 Matt-W thing is all the JavaScript is jQuery stuff
13:04 Matt-W so it's kind of supposed to work
13:04 __ash__ joined #perl6
13:04 Matt-W but I think the google earth plugin is causing mischief with its interfaces
13:04 masak man, the use.perl.org main page is ugly. :(
13:05 moritz_ oh yes
13:05 Matt-W all of use.perl.org is ugly
13:05 moritz_ we should have a use.perl6.org with camelia design and cheerful colors
13:07 saran joined #perl6
13:07 Matt-W Hmm
13:07 Matt-W To be honest, I don't like Camelia
13:07 saran Saran is back after studying some perl basics
13:08 saran *perl6
13:08 Matt-W So I'm just going to wince quietly in a corner
13:08 Matt-W saran: welcome back!
13:09 saran yesterday was discussing with mask and mberends abt working on ".perl" function which simulates Data::Dumper in Perl 5
13:09 diakopter Camelia might like darker chroma
13:09 Matt-W Yes I saw that
13:10 Matt-W And it currently doesn't handle circular references very well
13:11 saran matt-w . yes . i need to work to find why it hangs while doing circular references
13:11 Matt-W If it's not handling them at all at the moment, I expect it hangs because it keeps following them
13:12 diakopter saran: if you want to see an algorithm that handles reference cycles (and sibling/cousin multiple references) while serializing, see the ToJS.pm I committed to pugs/src/perl6 yesterday
13:12 masak loliblogged: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39639
13:12 hercynium joined #perl6
13:13 diakopter it could be optimized a bit by eliminating the stashing of references for items that *aren't* referenced more than once (internally or otherwise)
13:13 diakopter optimized for reading, I mean.
13:13 masak Matt-W: I started out mildly disliking Camelia.
13:14 Matt-W masak: I don't mind the concept, I'd just like something that looks a bit more... professional
13:14 Matt-W Awful though that word is
13:14 masak Matt-W: what sold me was watching the hilarious reactions ("childish", "gay", "girly" etc) on Twitter. people clearly need to loosen up.
13:14 masak Matt-W: yes, that was my first reaction, too. not professional enough.
13:14 Matt-W Maybe they do, but we're talking about first impressions
13:14 diakopter it's professionally intended to be counter-culture, I assume.
13:15 masak aye.
13:15 Matt-W And if you're looking at corporate adoption and you say at your workplace let's do this in Perl 65
13:15 Matt-W s/65/6/
13:15 diakopter or 65
13:15 Matt-W And they look at perl6.org and see something that's decorated like a kindergarten, what are they going to say?
13:15 Matt-W Go away and weep because their grey suits aren't colourful enough?
13:16 Matt-W Maybe we can do colourful, I'm not a designer, I just think it needs *something*
13:17 diakopter "our company can't afford to be associated with such counter-culture; our available hiring field would diminish significantly"
13:17 * Tene points out the django pony.
13:17 Tene masak: i love the blog post.
13:19 Tene masak: have you seen keep? http://conway.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/wik​i/blog/posts/Higher-order_shell/keep
13:19 saran joined #perl6
13:20 saran Saran : am sorry..my network hangs out often
13:20 Matt-W diakopter: this is unfortunately how companies think :(
13:20 moritz_ well, maybe perl6.com should show larry in a suit rather than camelia ;-)
13:20 * Matt-W likes Strawberry Perl, maybe we just need a really nice big Camelia
13:20 diakopter django pony: ok, the distinction there in manager-think is between a "technology/product" and a "language/platform".  Generally, commitments to the latter are seen as much more binding than commitments to instances of the former, regardless of whether the perceived classificiation is "correct" or whether the distinction is even valid to any granularity.
13:21 Matt-W I'd say a designer, but preferably not the ones who did my employer's new look
13:21 diakopter syntaxes and compilers are still seen as much darker magic than apis and runtimes.
13:22 masak Tene: thank you. no, haven't seen keep.
13:22 * masak checks it out
13:22 moritz_ diakopter: well, in a sense they are ;-)
13:22 Tene masak: the description is on this page: http://conway.rutgers.edu/~ccshan/w​iki/blog/posts/Higher-order_shell/
13:22 snearch joined #perl6
13:23 masak looks like a good starting point for tote. :)
13:23 diakopter moritz_: yeah, usually, I know. :) but sometimes I let myself deludedly forget :P
13:23 * hercynium is trying to figure out if his memory of Python formerly having a cartoonish logo is correct
13:23 diakopter green viper?
13:23 Tene masak: the gf has a couple of sketches that you asked for, and is going to scan them and finish them sometime soon, just is busy with school.
13:24 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
13:24 hercynium I think it was this: http://www.vanille-media.de/images/python.png
13:25 diakopter --outline-drawings++
13:25 saran masak : i am back today after my office work
13:25 hercynium I'm sure O'Reilly will come up with something suitably "professional" when the time is right
13:25 masak saran: cool.
13:26 diakopter (--outline_drawings++ : appear to decrement, but actually stay neutral :)
13:26 * hercynium should have put "suitably" in quotes as well :)
13:26 moritz_ hercynium: and hold the copyright on it, just like the camel - not what we want
13:26 masak hercynium: ISTR Guido resisted any snake-like mascots for a long time.
13:26 hercynium moritz_: indeed
13:26 Matt-W It's a shame, because the camel is good
13:26 * Matt-W also likes the onion
13:27 pugs_svn r28271 | moritz++ | [perl6.org] intial layout for menus
13:27 hercynium however, they probably *will* have their own icon, and people in corporate life will associate it
13:27 moritz_ there's nothing wrong with that
13:27 moritz_ just like rakudo has its own logo
13:28 hercynium agreed :)
13:29 saran mosak : trying to understand this RT ticket http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=58922
13:30 moritz_ http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/perl6.org.png
13:32 masak saran: are you experimenting with names of misspelling my nick? :)
13:32 masak I'll see you faster if you write 'masak'. :P
13:33 moritz_ ma<tab key>
13:33 saran masak : am sorry abt the typo :)
13:33 masak no prob. :)
13:33 Matt-W moritz_: Does Blizkost really come under Perl 6 Compilers?
13:33 masak saran: can I help you in some way?
13:34 Matt-W (game of table tennis) &
13:34 moritz_ Matt-W: have fun
13:34 moritz_ don't know about blizkost
13:35 diakopter saran: shouldn't that remain stalled until the condition in pmichaud's comment is satisified?  (or help that condition be satisfied?)
13:35 saran masak : give me a minute..lemme understand the RT ticket
13:35 masak diakopter: probably, yes.
13:36 masak diakopter: we're just seeing if we can un-stall it at this point.
13:37 diakopter there are only a couple of options: create a new syntax (like yaml's numbered object IDs) that lets object literals reference other parts of the same object literal expression, or make it statement/phase-oriented
13:38 saran masak : in this oneliner <code> perl6 -e 'my @a = (1); @a[0] := @a; @a.perl' </code> . am more curious abt @a[0] :=@a; # is this equal to @a[0] = @a[0]:@a ? what it does ?
13:38 masak saran: the ':=' is a binding.
13:38 masak saran: it makes @a[0] point to the same memory location as @a.
13:39 Matt-W moritz_: No fun, somebody's having a meeting next to the table tennis table
13:39 masak or, I should say, the same container.
13:39 moritz_ diakopter: well, .perl is specced to return perl code. 'do { my $tmp = [1, 2]; $tmp[2] := $tmp } ' would be avalid return value
13:39 diakopter right, I wasn't (at that point) arguing for one or the other option... but the more I think about it, the more I suspect a new self-referencing object literal syntax would be extremely handy
13:39 moritz_ Matt-W: :( my next match is on Monday, and I haven't played for months
13:40 saran masak : Ok.. got it. in my words..one of the element in the array holding the parent array memory value ..correct me if i am wrong ?
13:41 masak saran: sounds correct to me.
13:41 masak saran: and thence the circularity.
13:41 diakopter it might be something like relative directory references (. or .., except not dots, or something), or alternatively absolute references with in-expression IDs
13:42 diakopter moritz_: oooohhh!
13:42 diakopter what about this
13:44 diakopter a syntax that allows just a shorthand way of typing what you just wrote... a twigil on a variable that makes it "expression-scoped"... so the do{} isn't necessary
13:45 saran masak : thanks.as u said yesterday am going to check out the function call on src/setting/List.pm, line 42
13:46 diakopter moritz_: my @b = do { my $tmp = [1, 2]; $tmp[2] := $tmp }   becomes   my @b = [1, 2, @=b]   ... or something
13:46 masak saran: yes. it might be useful to know that this is the code that runs when you do .perl on a list.
13:46 punter joined #perl6
13:48 diakopter moritz_: or using the relative "level" idea, (so "b" isn't necessary):     [1, 2, @..]
13:48 diakopter (yes, I know I got the sigils incorrect in those examples, but you see my point I hope)
13:49 moritz_ well, one could think about it
13:49 masak diakopter: sounds like a cool idea for a syntax-modifying module.
13:50 diakopter masak: but not a cool idea for the STD language?
13:50 masak in my humble opinion, no.
13:50 masak too specialised.
13:52 saran joined #perl6
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13:53 diakopter masak: I'm trying not to sound overly defensive, but when you denigrate the idea so summarily without giving any explanation, how else am I going to sound when I ask, "how is it too specialised?"
13:55 masak diakopter: sorry if I sounded too dismissive. I'll try to motivate my feeling, though in the end it's only a feeling.
13:56 masak in my day-to-day programming, I don't encounter situations where I need to introduce loops in my data structures.
13:56 masak when one does, the feature is perfect, which is why I think it would make a nice module.
13:56 diakopter My motivation is this: self-referencing data structures are extremely common; being able to serialize them declaratively (in-line, non-statement-oriented) without acrobatics would be extremely helpfull.
13:56 diakopter helpful.
13:56 diakopter well there's the difference.
13:56 moritz_ Perl 6 programmers try to solve every problem with syntax ;-)
13:56 diakopter you don't deal with those structures
13:56 masak but putting it in core would complicate the language for everyone, with fairly little average gain.
13:57 payload joined #perl6
13:58 diakopter honestly, I think it *lessens* the complexity of the language, by making it much more declarative.  There are many occasions where statement-oriented code can be "inlined" more by introducing in-expression relative references.
13:58 saran masak : As i am a newbie lemme understand --> how do i iterate over the loops --> http://www.programmersheaven​.com/2/Perl6-FAQ-Basics#for
13:59 masak rakudo: for 1,2,3 -> $value { say $value }
13:59 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤»
13:59 masak saran: like that, basically.
14:00 diakopter masak: (I'm not merely referring to serialization/.perl; I'm talking about source code in general).  Many a programmer has to "refactor" an expression out into several statements just because they have to "predeclare" some reference.
14:00 masak saran: you can also use @array.map, like the code in List.pm does.
14:01 masak diakopter: I hear ya. do you have a very convincing use case?
14:02 diakopter ok.  the serialization of STD.pm's AST.
14:02 zamolxes joined #perl6
14:02 masak diakopter: but that can be solved with the do blocks we've been talking about. no need to introduce wholly new syntax.
14:03 masak diakopter: in fact, that's how Data::Dumper does it.
14:03 masak I'd go so far as to say that $root is a great bit more readable than %........
14:03 diakopter that can't solve mutually recursive cycles (indirect cycles).  Also, it doesn't solve multiple references across the tree (that aren't a parent of each other)
14:04 masak why wouldn't it solve mutually recursive cycles?
14:05 saran masak : i cant understand what do u say " @array.map " in List.pm
14:06 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1);
14:06 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
14:06 colomon rakudo: say atanh(.9);
14:06 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1.47221948958322␤»
14:06 saran masak : you mean this line " return '[' ~ self.map({ .perl }).join(", ") ~ ']'; "
14:06 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1.1);
14:06 masak saran: yes.
14:06 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
14:06 masak saran: it says 'self.map' but 'self' here is a List.
14:07 colomon rakudo say atanh(2);
14:07 saran masak : just a little confusion..it is better to clear all small small doubts before getting into the problem
14:07 masak saran: my point is that it's another way to loop over lists, and sometimes it's preferable to 'for'.
14:07 masak saran: oh, definitely.
14:07 colomon rakudo: say atanh(2);
14:07 diakopter Let me revise that negative case to be: a combination of a mutually recursive cycle and cross-tree references.  In the most pathological case, it's just assigning a temporary "named" (or "keyed") variable to each reference in the tree, and then binding all the links afterwards.
14:07 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
14:07 colomon rakudo: say atanh(3);
14:08 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
14:08 masak saran: I'd recommend that you approach this by actually writing a test, and then try to make Rakudo pass it. that will probably help in giving the effort a short-term goal.
14:10 diakopter masak: My (perhaps) larger point is that the ability to serialize a data structure as a single expression makes it [have the potential to be] perfectly round-trippable.
14:10 Zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:10 saran masak : wat do u mean by "writing a test" . you mean simulating the circular reference error
14:11 diakopter saran: type out what you think the output of that test case should be
14:11 masak saran: yes. having a short program that causes the error will help you greatly.
14:11 masak saran: the program in the RT ticket will do.
14:12 masak saran: as I see it, your first task is to make Rakudo not hang. your second task is to make .perl output something sensible that creates such a structure.
14:12 saran masak : yes i am trying to understand the " :=" operator..
14:12 masak saran: have you found S03?
14:13 Tene masak: if we get a good version of fairy-camelia, and get a version of django running on parrot, then we'd have an excuse to make a logo for "Perl 6 on django", the form of which should be obvious. ;)
14:13 saran masak : wat is S03 ?
14:14 masak diakopter: yes, I understand. it's just that I find a some advantages in not intriducing any new syntax at all. Data::Dumper seems not to suffer too much from its way of doing things.
14:14 masak saran: http://perlcabal.org/syn/S03.html
14:14 saran masak : am studying this which may help to understand the ":=" --> http://www.programmersheaven.co​m/2/Perl6-FAQ-Variables#binding
14:15 masak saran: that might be good. the synopses are the source of all knowledge, though.
14:16 masak Tene: :)
14:17 guest1235123 does anyone think a guide to the channel's notation would be helpful? and if so, link in chan topic?
14:18 Tene guest1235123: if it seems like we have significant notation, sure.  It doesn't seem that way to me, but I'm not in a position to effectively judge. :)
14:18 smash joined #perl6
14:18 smash hello everyone
14:18 Tene guest1235123: you do want to remember, though, that nearly nobody ever reads the topic.
14:18 Tene HI SMASH
14:19 Zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:19 colomon Tene: sad to say, it took me about two months to figure out what "afk" meant.  ;)
14:20 Tene colomon: that's very much not specific to this channel... but I don't have any idea what proportion of #perl6 members are new to IRC.
14:20 KyleHa joined #perl6
14:21 colomon There probably is a useful generic guide to IRC out there somewhere...
14:21 masak I think the conventions of #perl6 would be a bit difficult to pin down.
14:21 masak people here tend to like to bend notation, adapting it on the fly.
14:22 masak which, come to think about it, is pretty appropriate.
14:22 colomon :)
14:23 saran masak : got understood from the ":=" aka it is alias what we use symbolic references in perl5 by this link http://www.programmersheaven.co​m/2/Perl6-FAQ-Variables#binding
14:23 masak saran: that's close enough, I think.
14:24 masak saran: in Perl 6, it's called 'binding'.
14:24 masak saran: you can do $a := $b, and then when you change $a, $b will also change.
14:25 justatheory joined #perl6
14:25 saran masak : yes..got it clearly. Thanks for the link
14:31 Zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
14:34 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:34 masak goooooooood morning, pmichaud!
14:34 Tene hi pm
14:36 ruoso bom dia
14:36 nihiliad joined #perl6
14:36 hercynium #perl6 is pmichaud's vietnam?
14:36 hercynium ;-)
14:37 Matt-W oh hai pmichaud
14:37 * hercynium imagines robin williams
14:43 pmichaud yes, #perl6 is my personal quagmire :)
14:43 diakopter moritz_: ok, here's a non-syntactic alternative
14:43 diakopter fix { [1,2,$_] }
14:44 diakopter suggestion courtesy of someone off-channel who can remain anonymous (or not) if they wish :P
14:44 * masak likes fix
14:45 diakopter now, deriving those fix expressions for complex structures might be tricky.  probably there's some algorithm somewhere for it.
14:45 diakopter for .perl, I mean
14:46 masak I'm having an easier time picturing that fix might blow up for some cases of loopy references, though.
14:47 Psyche^ joined #perl6
14:47 diakopter otoh, the syntax I suggested can be considered shorthand for "recursive lets"
14:49 colomon Is there a clean way to combine "when" with a flag?
14:49 colomon Something like    when $in_setup && /blue/ { do something }
14:50 colomon where $in_setup is a Bool?
14:50 pmichaud colomon: what you just wrote should work.
14:51 colomon It won't try to $_ ~~ $in_setup or something like that?
14:51 pmichaud it will actually   $_ ~~ ($in_setup && /blue/)
14:53 Intensity joined #perl6
14:53 jnthn o/
14:54 colomon and ~~ Bool is just Bool, and then it does $_ ~~ /blue/ ?
14:54 colomon That's awesome.
14:54 moritz_ at surely works for & instead of &&
14:55 moritz_ rakudo: given 'foo' { when True && /oo/ { say "bar" } }
14:55 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«bar␤»
14:55 moritz_ rakudo: given 'foo' { when True && /oof/ { say "bar" } }
14:55 p6eval rakudo 4de821:  ( no output )
14:55 moritz_ rakudo: given 'foo' { when False && /oo/ { say "bar" } }
14:55 p6eval rakudo 4de821:  ( no output )
14:55 colomon woo-hoo!
14:55 moritz_ seems to work.
14:56 pmichaud it doesn't thread over &&, if that's what you're asking
14:56 pmichaud it does a normal ($in_setup && /blue/)
14:56 moritz_ aye
14:56 pmichaud if $in_setup is false, then the ~~ expression becomes    ~~ False
14:57 moritz_ but /blue/ binds to the correct $_
14:57 pmichaud if $in_setup is true, then we match /blue/ to $_
14:57 pmichaud (which is the default behavior for any regex in boolean context)
14:57 moritz_ and ~~ False is always false
14:57 moritz_ so everything is fine ;-)
14:57 masak Perl6++
14:59 colomon thanks!
15:01 jnthn ooh...a new masakpost! :-D
15:01 masak :)
15:02 alester joined #perl6
15:02 masak this iron man thing actually works. nowadays, I have a little mental variable that tells me when I need to blog. mst++
15:03 moritz_ aye
15:04 TimToady I blog on twitter once a week or so now :)
15:04 jnthn masak++ # got f**king blogging ;-)
15:04 moritz_ actually I think I still have one spare post that's going to be published on time
15:05 * jnthn didn't quite get dragged into Twitter yet.
15:05 pmichaud I find twirssi to be very helpful for twitter stuff :)
15:06 pmichaud tweets I'm interested in are just another window in my irssi client :)
15:07 jnthn that's a nie way to manage it
15:07 jnthn *nice
15:07 jnthn I guess the real issue is that I didn't convince myself of he value of it yet.
15:07 pmichaud well, since I generally have irssi open anyway, it's easy to just notice activity in the twitter window
15:08 pmichaud in some ways, twitter is like an aggregator for blog comments
15:09 masak no, that's RSS.
15:09 pmichaud I've seen RSS aggregate blog postings, but not the comments :)
15:10 viklund most blogposts have a special rss-feed just for the comments
15:10 agentzh joined #perl6
15:10 viklund (or maybe I should say, most bloggingsoftware)
15:10 pmichaud does use.perl have one?
15:11 jnthn I guess maybe I should give twitter a go at some point.
15:11 finanalyst rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[2,3,4],5); my @a=2,3,4; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a));my %hs= <a b c> Z (1,[<a b c>],5); my @as=<a b c>; say ?(all(%hs<b>) eq any(@as))
15:11 pmichaud it bugs me that I don't get notices when someone comments on an article I wrote
15:11 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤0␤»
15:11 jnthn I'm afraid of getting too hooked by it.
15:11 viklund dunno
15:11 jnthn Then, I didn't get hooked on Facebook, it's just a useful tool for keeping in touch with various people who prefer to communicate that way...
15:11 finanalyst pmichaud: junctions with eq seems to have stopped working
15:12 __ash__ my twitter account is um... dead, it gets update from an iphone app that records how long my jogs are and thats all thats on my twitter account right now
15:12 viklund doesn't look like it
15:12 pmichaud rakudo:    say (any(<3 4 5>) eq 4).perl
15:12 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«any(Bool::False, Bool::True)␤»
15:12 finanalyst rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[2,3,4],5); my @a=2,3,4; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a));my %hs= <a b c> Z (1,[<a b c>],5); my @as=<a b c>; say ?(all(%hs<b>) eq any(@as))
15:13 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤0␤»
15:13 finanalyst should both be 1
15:13 finanalyst it used to work
15:14 pmichaud rakudo:  my @as = <a b c>;  say [<a b c>] eq @as;
15:14 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:14 pmichaud rakudo:  my %hs = ('b', [<a b c>]);  say %hs.perl;
15:14 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«{"b" => ["a", "b", "c"]}␤»
15:14 masak no parens needed. :)
15:14 pmichaud rakudo:  my %hs = ('b', [<a b c>]);  my @as = <a b c>;  say %hs<b> eq @as;
15:14 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:15 pmichaud oh, yes, of course
15:15 pmichaud Rakudo is giving the correct output.
15:15 pmichaud oh, wait, maybe not.
15:15 pmichaud rechecking.
15:16 colomon ooo, just got burned by using $1 instead of $0.
15:16 finanalyst rakudo: my @x=<a b c>; say ?(all(@x) eq any(<a b c>))
15:16 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:16 pmichaud rakudo:  my %hs = ('b', [<a b c>]);  my @as = <a b c>;  say all(%hs<b>) eq any(@as);
15:16 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«all(any(Bool::False))␤»
15:16 pmichaud rakudo:  my %hs = ('b', [<a b c>]);  my @as = <a b c>;  say all(%hs<b>.list) eq any(@as);
15:16 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«all(any(Bool::True, Bool::False), any(Bool::False, Bool::True), any(Bool::False, Bool::True))␤»
15:17 pmichaud all(%hs<b>)  consists of a single element
15:17 cognominal jnthn,  probably, I don't know HLLCompiler well enough, but I don't know yet how to use load_library in blizkost?
15:17 finanalyst but when the elements are integers not strings, the junction flattens
15:17 pmichaud no, it becomes 3
15:18 pmichaud here.
15:18 pmichaud rakudo:  my %hs = ('b', [<a b c>]);  say all(%hs<b>).perl
15:18 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«all(["a", "b", "c"])␤»
15:18 finanalyst rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[2,3,4],5); my @a=2,3,4; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a))
15:18 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:18 pmichaud note that it's   all(["a", "b", "c"]) and not  all("a", "b", "c")
15:19 pmichaud so the request of using eq  becomes a test for   "a b c" eq "a" || "a b c" eq "b" || "a b c" eq "c"
15:19 pmichaud here, watch this way
15:19 jnthn cognominal: See what use impl does in Rakudo
15:20 pmichaud rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[7,8,9],5); my @a=7,8,9; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a))
15:20 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:20 pmichaud correct.
15:20 jnthn cognominal: But basically, it takes some params and hands back a hash.
15:20 cognominal impl?
15:20 jnthn implementation
15:20 KyleHa rakudo: class A { has @.a; method empty { @.a = () }; A.new.empty;
15:20 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
15:20 pmichaud finanalyst: figured it out yet?
15:21 KyleHa rakudo: class A { has @.a; method empty { @.a = () }; }; A.new.empty;
15:21 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in method A::empty (/tmp/ymny7wpRiy:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/ymny7wpRiy:2)␤»
15:21 rfordinal joined #perl6
15:22 finanalyst pmichaud: nope. i had a similar line in code that was working. I have returned to it and it stopped working
15:22 mspaulding joined #perl6
15:23 muixirt where is the separation of statements with semicolons specced?
15:23 pmichaud finanalyst: well, perhaps Rakudo was broken before.  But all of the examples above look correct to me.
15:23 finanalyst \action thinking
15:23 pmichaud muixirt: S04, I think.
15:24 pmichaud I'm not sure it's "specced" beyond the information about statement-ending blocks in S04.
15:24 masak it doesn't seem to be.
15:24 masak it's just taken to be the same as in Perl 5, I guess.
15:25 finanalyst rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[7,8,9],5); my @a=7,8,9; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a))
15:25 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«0␤»
15:25 finanalyst rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[2,3,4],5); my @a=2,3,4; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a))
15:25 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:25 cmv joined #perl6
15:25 pmichaud rakudo: my %h= <a b c> Z (1,[7,8,9],5); my @a=2,3,4; say ?(all(%h<b>) == any(@a))
15:26 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
15:26 TimToady muixirt: and S03, and STD
15:26 pmichaud because   all([7,8,9]) == any(2,3,4)
15:27 pmichaud (because +[7,8,9] == 3)
15:27 muixirt TimToady: a semicolon is an operator?
15:27 TimToady kinda
15:27 finanalyst pmichaud: I am really getting lost here
15:28 TimToady "sequencer" precedence
15:28 pmichaud finanalyst: in numeric context, all([7,8,9])  is the same as all(3)
15:28 TimToady same as feed operators
15:28 ms111 left #perl6
15:28 finanalyst ah now I see. Not intuitive!
15:29 pmichaud so the correct way to get what you want is   all(@%h<b>)
15:29 finanalyst how then to flatten [7,8,9] to 7,8,9?
15:29 pmichaud however, Rakudo doesn't have the prefix @ yet, so the workaround is   all(%h<b>.list)
15:29 finanalyst crossed msgs
15:29 TimToady std: all(@%h<b>)
15:29 p6eval std 28271: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Anonymous variable requires declarator at /tmp/PzW11pYAfA line 1:␤------> [32mall(@[33m⏏[31m%h<b>)[0m␤    expecting twigil␤FAILED 00:02 37m␤»
15:30 TimToady std: all(@(%h<b>))
15:30 pmichaud although I think that @(%h<b>) works
15:30 p6eval std 28271: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable %h is not predeclared at /tmp/J9ysZUvmTW line 1:␤------> [32mall(@(%h[33m⏏[31m<b>))[0m␤ok 00:03 37m␤»
15:30 pmichaud rakudo:   my %h = 'b', <7 8 9>;   say all(@(%h<b>)).perl
15:30 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«all("7")␤»
15:30 pmichaud oops
15:30 pmichaud rakudo:   my %h = 'b', [<7 8 9>];   say all(@(%h<b>)).perl
15:30 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«all("7", "8", "9")␤»
15:30 pmichaud there.
15:30 finanalyst thank you!!!
15:31 TimToady rakudo:   my %h = 'b', [<7 8 9>];   say all(%h<b>.values).perl
15:31 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«all("7", "8", "9")␤»
15:32 drbean_ joined #perl6
15:33 finanalyst .values makes it more understandable
15:33 phenny AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'startswith' (file "/var/www/inamidst.com/htdocs​/phenny/modules/validate.py", line 15, in val)
15:33 jnthn oh noes phenny is has a fail
15:34 finanalyst .oh noes
15:34 pmichaud ".py" ??
15:34 pugs_svn r28272 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 69192
15:34 finanalyst blasphemy!
15:34 TimToady nah, just crudity
15:35 pmichaud mail perl6bug@perl.org -s "[BUG]  phenny appears to be written in Python"
15:35 pmichaud mail perl6bug@perl.org -s "[TODO]  Implement 'use Python'"
15:36 TimToady .oO(pmichaud is a stand-up camelian)
15:36 pmichaud I'm often accused of changing my colors.
15:36 drbean_ joined #perl6
15:37 Tene pmichaud: I can bump HLL interop support for pynie higher on my task list if you'd like.
15:38 pmichaud Tene: that's okay, I won't be needing it anytime soon.
15:38 pmichaud I have to get some grammar engine work done first
15:39 mspaulding joined #perl6
15:39 jnthn yay!
15:39 jnthn pmichaud: Does PGE have contextual var decls yet?
15:39 masak \o/
15:39 pmichaud jnthn: not yet
15:40 masak is there a Rakudo release today?
15:40 pmichaud particle++ is release manager for today
15:40 masak [particle]++
15:41 pmichaud jnthn: I'm likely to do protoregexes this next week, then contextuals and lexicals after that
15:41 pmichaud today/tomorrow I have to do $otherjob stuff :-(
15:41 jnthn oh, re-ordering?
15:41 jnthn It worked out better that way?
15:42 pmichaud well, I'd like NQP to be parsing regexes, using something similar to the way STD.pm parses regexes
15:42 pmichaud so in order for that to happen I really need protoregexes
15:42 jnthn aha, OK.
15:42 jnthn Sounds sane.
15:42 * jnthn looks forward to it
15:43 * masak also
15:43 TimToady jnthn: http://www.programmersheaven.co​m/2/Perl6-FAQ-Variables#binding is now wrong on the subject of ::=
15:43 colomon pmichaud: Still looking at the Perl Foundation address after my bounce from their Oregon address -- their contact page has a "Grand Ledge, MI" address.
15:43 Tene pmichaud: you expect to need python support for something?  for what?
15:43 pmichaud then when NQP is parsing regexes, I can add the contextual declarations to NQP's parser much more straightforwardly than trying to add it to PGE's current regex parser
15:43 jnthn pmichaud: OK, makes sense from an efficiency POV.
15:43 pmichaud Tene: I was making a funny earlier
15:43 Tene pmichaud: Ah, right. ><
15:44 pmichaud jnthn: also, protoregexes are the outstanding item on my Hague grant
15:44 * Tene still waking up... slowly.
15:44 jnthn TimToady: I need to give that FAQ a good look over generally for spec movements...it's not really kept up.
15:44 pmichaud I think I might fix := and ::= for Rakudo day this next week
15:45 jferrero joined #perl6
15:45 masak great times ahead, it seems.
15:46 jnthn Yeah!
15:46 jnthn I'm liking this month.
15:46 jnthn :-)
15:48 Tene It looks like my life might be starting to settle down soon, hopefully...
15:49 Tene masak: I heard you got squirrel working well... just with sqlite, or does it have mysql support too
15:49 am0c joined #perl6
15:49 Tene ?
15:49 masak Tene: it had a name change for starters. it's now known as Squerl. :)
15:49 masak Tene: it uses your SQLite3 module.
15:50 masak no MySQL support yet. would be nice to have that too.
15:50 masak will blog about it tomorrow.
15:51 masak right now I'm mostly porting and passing tests from Sequel. I would blog today, but I want a few more tests before I do.
15:51 jnthn Awww...squirrel was a cute name.
15:52 masak it still sounds the same. :)
15:52 TimToady rhymes with Perl
15:54 Tene masak: i can download from your github repo, yes?
15:54 masak aye.
15:55 masak I'm currently filling up t/squerl/02-dataset.t... slowly.
15:55 Tene oh, it's in web
15:55 masak yes.
15:56 masak it would be nice if tote were already written at this point, then I would have used it for writing and passing tests. :)
15:56 Tene Yay, github crashing again!
15:56 masak they're being DDoSed. :/
15:56 Tene orly?
15:56 * dukeleto says "screw you" to the lamers DDoS'ing github
15:57 masak Tene: http://twitter.com/github/status/4056522781
15:58 masak yes, it seems really meaningless. why would anyone want to DDoS github?
15:58 guest1235123 Squerl, pronounced like an Amerkin would? I like.
15:59 dukeleto masak: perhaps they hate freedom and/or free software
15:59 masak dukeleto: :)
16:01 sjohnson hi TimToady !
16:01 sjohnson back from India
16:01 masak o/ sjohnson
16:01 sjohnson hi masak too
16:01 sjohnson :)
16:01 masak how was India?
16:02 sjohnson surprisngly a lot of fun
16:02 sjohnson didnt thin i'd have so much fun in a 3rd world country
16:03 sjohnson think
16:03 masak nice to hear.
16:03 masak India does seem an interesting country.
16:05 Tene masak: "Apparently the attackers are targeting a specific project on GitHub" -- http://twitter.com/github/status/4034616135
16:05 araujo joined #perl6
16:05 dukeleto Tene: yeah, that is really lame
16:06 mspaulding joined #perl6
16:06 masak still -- I wonder which project, and why.
16:06 Tene Me too.
16:06 araujo hello
16:07 dukeleto araujo: good localtime()
16:07 masak araujo: \o
16:07 araujo hi dukeleto masak
16:07 araujo :)
16:08 Zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
16:10 colomon rakudo: acosh(-1)
16:10 p6eval rakudo 4de821:  ( no output )
16:10 colomon rakudo: say acosh(-1)
16:10 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
16:13 dukeleto rakudo: say acosh(NaN)
16:13 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
16:13 masak food &
16:14 rfordinal joined #perl6
16:16 colomon cosh on reals has to be positive, so acosh of a negative is NaN.  Makes perfect sense.  :)
16:19 dukeleto colomon: indeed
16:19 colomon I'm still feeling through these things while I work on the trig tests.
16:19 dukeleto colomon: i wrote most of the tests dealing with NaN in t/spec, if you have questions, let me know
16:20 colomon Ooo, hey, I do have one.
16:20 dukeleto rakudo: say acosh(Inf)
16:20 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
16:20 colomon Okay, two, actually.  I don't think you wrote any tests for Inf and inverse functions?
16:21 ejs joined #perl6
16:21 dukeleto that may be wrong. since lim( cosh(x) ) = Inf as x -> +- Inf, it is not a one-to-one function there and acosh(Inf) should probably be NaN
16:21 dukeleto i need more coffee to make be sure
16:22 dukeleto colomon: I just did :)
16:22 dukeleto colomon: yes, it looks like the inverse functions don't know that Inf is special
16:22 dukeleto rakudo: say acosh(-Inf)
16:22 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
16:22 dukeleto ok, that is good
16:24 jnthn sleeep
16:25 dukeleto colomon: perl 5's Math::Complex says that acosh(Inf) = inf (not sure I buy that) and I just found a bug when you try to do acosh(-Inf): Math::Complex::make: Cannot take real part of '-Inf'
16:26 colomon Are you saying you turned up a Perl 5 bug?  :)
16:26 dukeleto colomon: in general, any function where multiple input values map to the same output value, the inverse function at that point should return NaN
16:26 dukeleto colomon: looks like it. fun fun
16:27 cognomore joined #perl6
16:27 colomon dukeleto: that can't be right, that would blow the heck out of the normal inverse trig functions
16:27 dukeleto colomon: i am not talking about periodic functions
16:27 dukeleto that i should have clarified
16:27 colomon so any non-periodic functions where multiple input values map to the same output should be NaN.
16:28 colomon that makes sense, I suppose.
16:28 colomon My first question, which got sidetracked:
16:28 dukeleto the inverse function at that point should be NaN, that is.
16:29 dukeleto colomon: so basically, this means the hyperbolics, or to say in another way, the exponentials and logs
16:29 colomon only an issue with cosh, isn't it? (he said, looking at the graphs of the hyperbolic functions)
16:30 dukeleto colomon: sech(x) is an even function as well
16:30 dukeleto colomon: this happens with even functions on the real line
16:30 colomon ah, yes, nearly invisible on the graph I was looking at.
16:31 colomon dang it, I can't find the number I was looking at in the log.
16:31 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1)
16:31 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
16:31 colomon That's it.
16:31 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1.1)
16:31 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
16:31 colomon atanh is NaN if x > 1, divide by zero if x == 1
16:32 colomon I'm think it should be NaN if x >= 1
16:33 lionWrk joined #perl6
16:33 dukeleto colomon: they both are forms of "NaN", just that one is loud and one is quiet. Dividing directly by zero usually seems to trigger an exception, where doing other non-sensical things gives you a NaN value
16:33 dukeleto colomon: you may want to ask TimToady what he wants
16:33 pmichaud yes, I'm wondering if returning a failure is actually more correct here
16:34 pmichaud just like divide by zero should return a failure
16:34 dukeleto pmichaud: you mean a Failure exception object thingy ?
16:34 pmichaud yes
16:34 __ash__ ruby makes a distinction between Nan and runtime errors like division by zero, btw
16:34 dukeleto pmichaud: see, you *are* interested in ieee754-2008 ;)
16:35 rfordinal left #perl6
16:35 pmichaud in particular,   my $a = 3 / 0;   should not throw an exception
16:35 colomon I'd be okay with that (though there'd be tests to be rewritten :) ) as long as the failure is consistent for atanh(1) and atanh(1.1).
16:35 dukeleto __ash__: the perl 6 spec says that you should be able to lexically define how NaN's are propagated (quiet or signalling)
16:35 colomon pmichaud: Actually, 3 / 0 returns a valid Rat.
16:36 pmichaud okay,   3.0 / 0 then
16:36 colomon rakudo: my $a = 3 / 0; say $a.perl;
16:36 dukeleto rakudo: say 3.0 / 0
16:36 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1/0␤»
16:36 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
16:36 dukeleto rakudo: say 3/0
16:36 p6eval rakudo 4de821:  ( no output )
16:36 __ash__ dukeleto: ah, got ya, makes sense
16:36 pmichaud rakudo:   my $a = 3.0 / 0;
16:36 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
16:36 pmichaud rakudo is wrong there.
16:37 pmichaud (I tried fixing it once but ran into a few issues so saved it for another day)
16:37 pmichaud note that    "say 3.0 / 0"  *does* throw an exception
16:37 pmichaud because we're then trying to take the value of a Failure, which throws its associated exception
16:38 dukeleto pmichaud: so you mean, if you attempt to stringify a Failure, it croaks ?
16:38 pmichaud if the Failure has been unhandled, yes.
16:38 pmichaud er, has not been handled
16:39 * dukeleto thinks about being unhandled
16:40 pmichaud S04:  "If you test a C<Failure> for C<.defined> or C<.true>, it causes C<$!>
16:40 pmichaud to mark the main exception as I<handled>; the exception acts as a
16:40 pmichaud relatively harmless undefined value thereafter.  Any other use of the
16:40 pmichaud C<Failure> object to extract a normal value will throw its associated
16:40 pmichaud exception immediately.
16:41 jauaor joined #perl6
16:41 jauaor :)
16:41 iblechbot joined #perl6
16:41 pmichaud afk, errands
16:44 colomon rakudo: say acosh(0)
16:44 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
16:44 colomon rakudo: say acosh(1)
16:44 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«0␤»
16:49 finanalyst left #perl6
16:54 colomon masak: "tote" == "Totally Obsessive TDD Environment" ?
16:55 zaphar_p2 joined #perl6
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17:04 moritz_ [particle]: how's the release going?
17:04 moritz_ (or when?) ;-)
17:20 colomon dukeleto: re multiple input values mapping to one output value -- cosh graphs a parabola-style shape, with cosh(x) == cosh(-x).  by your argument, acosh should only be defined for 1.  Presumably it is actually defined to take the positive branch of the function, and therefore acosh(Inf) = Inf is perfectly reasonable.
17:24 jrtayloriv joined #perl6
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17:49 pmurias diakopter: what i think would be a very cool thing would be to have a debugger/tracer for vivjs which would highlight the exact bit of code that is executed
17:50 pmurias as the AST you are executing has a direct mapping to places in source code
17:50 diakopter pmurias: that would be cool...
17:50 diakopter like a dynamic edition of that std-highlight webpage form thing
17:51 pmurias yes, something like that
17:54 diakopter moritz_: is /msg p6eval anything_not_matching_prefixes supposed to try [and fail] to call STD_syntax_highlight
17:57 pmurias diakopter: it's not supposed to fail
17:58 pmurias the path in the evalbot is incorrect
17:58 diakopter o
17:59 pmurias it moved to STD_highlighy
17:59 pmurias s/y/t/
17:59 pmurias std_highlite actually
18:00 TimToady std: say "howdy $world"
18:00 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:00 diakopter std: "$world"
18:01 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:01 sm` joined #perl6
18:02 TimToady std: say "howdy $world"
18:02 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:02 TimToady grrr
18:02 sjohnson uh oh
18:02 TimToady std: 42
18:03 p6eval std 28272: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 37m␤»
18:03 TimToady std: say "howdy $world"
18:03 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:03 TimToady probably not giving it enough time to recalculate the "" grammar, but that ought to be cached already, y'd think
18:04 sjohnson it's because it knows that $world will be "world" anyway
18:04 sjohnson DOES NOT COMPUTE
18:04 TimToady std: say "howdy $IO-monad"
18:05 p6eval std 28272: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $IO-monad is not predeclared at /tmp/SlySsoyROO line 1:␤------> [32msay "howdy $IO-monad[33m⏏[31m"[0m␤ok 00:04 38m␤»
18:05 TimToady that was the problem :)(
18:05 * TimToady tries to figure out what his typo smiley means...
18:05 TimToady a grimace, perhaps
18:06 TimToady diakopter: see ^^
18:19 diakopter std: "HOWDY $WORD STOP"
18:19 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:20 diakopter cornfusion
18:20 he_ joined #perl6
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18:21 diakopter std: "howdy $IO-monad"
18:21 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:22 diakopter std: say "howdy $IO-monad"
18:22 p6eval std 28272:  ( no output )
18:24 diakopter std: say "","howdy $IO-monad"
18:24 p6eval std 28272: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $IO-monad is not predeclared at /tmp/IiQXrPPXE4 line 1:␤------> [32msay "","howdy $IO-monad[33m⏏[31m"[0m␤ok 00:04 39m␤»
18:26 bloonix joined #perl6
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18:38 pugs_svn r28273 | fglock++ | [mp6] Javascript emitter and runtime updates - grammar works
18:40 sjohnson joined #perl6
18:41 diakopter rakudo: say("Meesa »ö«")
18:41 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Meesa »ö«␤»
18:41 diakopter pugs: say("Meesa »ö«")
18:41 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Meesa »ö«␤»
18:46 pugs_svn r28274 | lwall++ | [STD] don't record null nibbles unless whole string is ''
18:46 pugs_svn r28274 | [viv] handle bracketing quotes correctlier
18:46 diakopter two for the price of 1
18:46 * diakopter reluctantly types `make`
18:47 diakopter I mean, excitedly.
18:53 jrtayloriv Is it OK if I move the <ws> rule of a grammar to the bottom, following all of the places where it is used? Or is using a rule/token similar to C functions, in that I must declare it somehow before I use it?
18:53 azawawi joined #perl6
18:54 TimToady it's like methods, so it doesn't matter what order you declare them
18:54 jrtayloriv And it's location in the source make any semantic difference at all?
18:54 jrtayloriv TimToady, thanks
18:54 TimToady in fact, in STD it's not just *like* methods, it *is* mehtods
18:54 TimToady *methods
18:55 TimToady rakudo too, these days
18:55 colomon rakudo: say cotanh(0)
18:55 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
18:55 TimToady though perhaps not Perl 6 methods...
18:55 colomon rakudo: say cotanh(.5)
18:55 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«2.16395341373865␤»
18:56 colomon rakudo: say cotanh(100)
18:56 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«1␤»
18:57 colomon rakudo: say acotanh(1)
18:57 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
18:58 colomon TimToady: That reminds me -- we meant to ask you if trig functions should be allowed to return divide by zero.
18:58 colomon rakudo: say acosh(1.1)
18:58 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«0.443568254385115␤»
18:59 colomon wrong one
18:59 colomon rakudo: say acosh(1)
18:59 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«0␤»
18:59 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1)
18:59 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«Divide by zero␤»
18:59 colomon rakudo: say atanh(1.00001)
18:59 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
18:59 TimToady if you get divide by zero when the limit is going to Inf, why not return Inf?
18:59 colomon rakudo: say atanh(.99999)
18:59 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«6.10303382276111␤»
19:00 colomon rakudo: say atanh(.9999999999)
19:00 p6eval rakudo 4de821: OUTPUT«11.859499013855␤»
19:00 colomon TimToady: Good question.
19:01 TimToady seems like we should use Inf/NaN where it makes sense, and reserve exceptions for, er, exceptions that are more exceptional...
19:01 colomon I was thinking atanh(1) ought to be NaN to match all the atanh values greater than 1, but Inf does seem to make sense there.
19:01 colomon TimToady++
19:01 TimToady after all, we may be passing these values off to some other language that hasn't a clue about unthrown exceptions
19:02 pmurias joined #perl6
19:02 colomon I will try to work that into my tests (though I don't know if I can figure out the PIR to actually implement it).
19:04 donaldh joined #perl6
19:10 Tene I really need to update some of the web stuff to use context vars where appropriate.
19:11 pugs_svn r28275 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Split the trig function by trig function info off into a separate file, trig_functions.  Add tests for inverse functions on rational numbers.
19:17 sri_kraih joined #perl6
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19:23 sjohnson joined #perl6
19:25 sjohnson sorry about all the reconnects
19:25 sri_kraih joined #perl6
19:35 kent\n joined #perl6
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19:40 Aisling joined #perl6
19:50 pugs_svn r28276 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add inverse Int tests as well.
19:51 colomon The trig test generator generates 6238 tests at the moment.  (Not included in the official spectests yet...)
19:52 colomon All pass on my copy of rakudo, planning on checking them in after the release today.
20:02 pmichaud (after release) +1
20:07 chturne joined #perl6
20:07 chturne #join #pugs
20:17 zerhash joined #perl6
20:40 pugs_svn r28277 | mimir++ | Added self to AUTHORS.
20:45 Khisanth joined #perl6
21:12 zamolxes joined #perl6
21:14 cmv joined #perl6
21:25 dalek rakudo: 05e7604 | (parrot user)++ | :
21:25 dalek rakudo: fixed bad math
21:25 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​5e760425dff9c4f630d9cb5f600891407735290
21:25 dalek rakudo: 41f7ba7 | (parrot user)++ | :
21:25 dalek rakudo: Merge branch 'master' of http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo
21:25 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​1f7ba7b8f860286a3f3a5091dfaedfedbbc45c9
21:25 dalek rakudo: 2953ac7 | (parrot user)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
21:25 dalek rakudo: fix typo
21:25 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​953ac774e41cc428fff24b2c190c970cf226553
21:44 ihrd joined #perl6
21:47 ihrd left #perl6
21:59 pmichaud particle++ # Rakudo #21
22:00 [particle] (thundering hoarde)++ for making the release easy this month
22:01 [particle] somehow i think of rakudo devs more as pirates than pack animals
22:03 kolibrie joined #perl6
22:05 masak joined #perl6
22:05 masak o/
22:05 sjohnson hi
22:06 masak I didn't plan to come back tonight. but I discovered a number of bugs, so I thought I'd report them before going to bed.
22:06 masak nothing beats writing app code for finding bugs.
22:07 * sjohnson pats masak on the back
22:07 masak rakudo: sub foo(Bool :$x) {}; foo(:x)
22:07 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected Bool, but got Int for $x in call to foo␤in sub foo (/tmp/M4rN5Eiet4:2)␤called from Main (/tmp/M4rN5Eiet4:2)␤»
22:07 * masak submits rakudobug
22:08 masak rakudo: class A { has $.a; method x(Str $:x) {}; method all() { $!a } }
22:08 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«Invalid twigil used in signature parameter. at line 2, near ") {}; meth"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1262)␤»
22:08 * masak submits rakudobug
22:08 masak oops, no that's not it.
22:08 masak rakudo: class A { has $.a; method x(Str :$x) {}; method all() { $!a } }
22:08 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«No such attribute '$!a'␤in Main (/tmp/gwwL4ES70M:2)␤»
22:08 masak there you go.
22:08 masak rakudo: say "oh hai" .= uc
22:08 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
22:08 masak rakudo: say "oh hai" .= "uc"
22:08 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«.= must have a call on the right hand side at line 2, near " .= \"uc\""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2722)␤»
22:08 * masak submits rakudobug
22:10 tak11 joined #perl6
22:12 lucs_ joined #perl6
22:13 diakopter re: Cobra & Ioke thread... ships passing in the night.
22:15 Kodi joined #perl6
22:15 Kodi Could someone change the Pugs SVN username "mimir" to "Kodi", or just give "Kodi" a commit bit (email "kodiarfer@warpmail.net")? I'd like to be to referred to by my first name in SVN logs.
22:15 masak rakudo: class A { has $.a; method x(Str $x) {}; method all() { $!a } }
22:16 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«No such attribute '$!a'␤in Main (/tmp/sHzJVfEqwb:2)␤»
22:18 masak rakudo: say "oh hai"."uc"
22:18 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
22:19 masak rakudo: my $a = "oh hai"; say $a.="uc"
22:19 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
22:19 masak rakudo: my $a = "oh hai"; say $a .= "uc"
22:19 sjohnson heh
22:19 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«.= must have a call on the right hand side at line 2, near " .= \"uc\""␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2722)␤»
22:19 pmichaud std:  my $a;  $a .= "uc";
22:20 p6eval std 28277:  ( no output )
22:20 pmichaud hmmmmm
22:20 sjohnson std's been busted for a while now
22:20 pmichaud std:  my $a;  $a .= uc;
22:20 sjohnson std: 3;
22:20 p6eval std 28277: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 38m␤»
22:20 p6eval std 28277: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 36m␤»
22:20 sjohnson nevermind
22:20 pmichaud std:  my $a;  $a .= 'uc';
22:21 p6eval std 28277: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Possible obsolete use of .= as append operator; in Perl 6 please use ~= instead at /tmp/kNhxZT6Qhy line 1:␤------> [32mmy $a;  $a .= [33m⏏[31m'uc';[0m␤  Useless use of quotes at /tmp/kNhxZT6Qhy line 1:␤------> [32mmy $a;  $a .=
22:21 p6eval ..'uc'[33m⏏[31m;[0m␤ok…
22:21 pmichaud yes, that's what I expected.
22:23 masak Matt-W: thanks for the kind words on p6l.
22:23 Kodi left #perl6
22:25 masak colomon: (re TOTE eq 'Totally Obsessive TDD Environment') sure, why not? :)
22:26 diakopter for posterity (I mean backscroll), I sent a pugs commitbit invite to Kodi as requested
22:27 Tene Me too!
22:28 patspam joined #perl6
22:29 nothingmuch joined #perl6
22:30 KatrinaTheLamia joined #perl6
22:30 Tene hi katrina
22:35 pugs_svn r28278 | Kodi++ | Insignificantly changed lead of AUTHORS to test new commit bit (I'm Kodi Arfer).
22:37 masak KatrinaTheLamia: \o
22:37 masak yay, I'm on reddit! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen​ts/9lkmt/helpfully_addictive_tdd_on_crack/
22:38 masak in summary, the commenters say it's been done already, it's trivial, they misread TDD twice, and they wish there was a Perl 5/.Net version. :)
22:39 diakopter 77
22:39 diakopter hm
22:39 diakopter (oops)
22:41 KatrinaTheLamia hai masak
22:41 KatrinaTheLamia hi Tene
22:54 masak use.perl.org does not degrade gracefully when js is turned off... editing a post turns up a blank page.
22:55 pugs_svn r28279 | diakopter++ | [vijs] non-interpolated Str can be said; TimToady++ for fixing/optimizing lots in STD/viv
22:58 diakopter vijs: say("Meesa »ö«")
22:58 p6eval vijs 28279: OUTPUT«Meesa »ö«␤␤     time in interpreter: 0.015203 s␤»
22:58 diakopter purty
23:02 masak hm... even with js, use.perl doesn't permit me to edit my post. :/
23:03 avuserow masak: I think you can blame slashcode for that
23:04 masak oh?
23:05 avuserow yeah, I don't think they have editing. slashdot doesn't at least, and they both run slashcode
23:06 masak up until today, I've been able to edit my posts just fine.
23:06 masak and I think I've seen updates to Slashdot posts as well.
23:06 masak not comments, mind. posts.
23:06 diakopter vijs: say("Meesa »ö«");say(say(' hi hi ', say 445))
23:06 p6eval vijs 28279: OUTPUT«Meesa »ö«␤445␤ hi hi 1␤1␤␤   time in interpreter: 0.045923 s␤»
23:06 avuserow masak: my mistake, thought you meant comments
23:09 masak rakudo: class A { method foo { say "A" } }; class B is A { method foo { say "B"; nextsame } }; B.new.+foo
23:09 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«B␤A␤A␤»
23:14 pmichaud that looks correct to me
23:14 masak same here.
23:14 masak I had an old sticky note where it Null PMC'd. it doesn't any more.
23:15 masak rakudo: class A { method foo(::T $ :) { say T.perl } }; A.new.foo
23:15 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«A␤»
23:16 masak std: class A { method foo(::T $:) {} }
23:16 p6eval std 28279: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 40m␤»
23:16 masak rakudo: class A { method foo(::T $:) {} }
23:16 p6eval rakudo 2953ac: OUTPUT«Invalid twigil used in signature parameter. at line 2, near ") {} }"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:1262)␤»
23:16 * masak cackles
23:17 masak pmichaud: is it reasonable to expect Rakudo to parse the above '$:' as '$ :'?
23:18 pmichaud is std parsing it that way?
23:18 masak good question.
23:18 masak it's not throwing an error, at least.
23:19 pmichaud I suspect std might be parsing it as '$:'
23:19 * pmichaud looks
23:19 masak why then doesn't it complain?
23:20 pmichaud why should it?  $: is valid
23:20 pmichaud it's the same as    method foo(::T $)
23:20 * masak blinks
23:20 masak yes, that's my point.
23:21 masak er, unless it isn't.
23:21 TimToady it has a param sep of ':'
23:21 TimToady so I think it's making it the invocant
23:21 pmichaud okay
23:21 pmichaud that's fine -- that's what masak++ is asking for
23:21 pmichaud let's see what Rakudo is doing
23:22 masak pmichaud: why would 'method foo(::T $:)' be the same as 'method foo(::T $)'? the first one has an invocant, the other one has that plus a param.
23:22 pmichaud masak:  just as $ is an anonymous placeholder variable, $: could be considered that as well depending on the parsing
23:22 TimToady $: requires a name at STD:1783
23:22 pmichaud (it's not that way, but it's possible for a grammar to treat it as such)
23:22 pmichaud yes, I see that
23:24 TimToady I don't know why param_var isn't slurping it as a twigil though
23:24 pmichaud right, that's my point :)
23:25 masak pmichaud: do you think http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=67846 would be hard to fix? I'm considering trying it myself. it's getting to be enough of an itch after tonight's hacking session.
23:25 pmichaud looks like param_var wants a \w after the <twigil>
23:25 pmichaud [<?before <.twigil>\w> <twigil>]?
23:25 TimToady line 3062, yes
23:26 TimToady that would be it
23:26 pmichaud Rakudo doesn't have that check.
23:26 pmichaud We can add it.
23:26 masak \o/
23:26 masak pmichaud: should I submit this to RT?
23:26 pmichaud sure.
23:26 * masak makes it so
23:26 TimToady why do I get the feeling that colon is overloaded to within an inch of its life already?
23:26 pmichaud ...inch?
23:26 pmichaud that much?
23:27 TimToady nanomicro?
23:27 pmichaud better.
23:27 masak attoparsec.
23:27 TimToady probably with a large negative imaginary component
23:27 diakopter non-breaking space
23:27 pmichaud zero-width space :-)
23:27 diakopter I mean.  that.
23:27 TimToady a BOM maybe
23:27 TimToady that has a large negative imaginary component, I suspect
23:27 pmichaud yes, it's aBOMinable
23:28 masak no argument there.
23:28 diakopter pmichaud++ # often translating my thoughts to typing better than I do.
23:28 TimToady sec...
23:30 pmichaud rakudo: class A { method foo(::T $ :) { } }   # just checking
23:30 p6eval rakudo 2953ac:  ( no output )
23:30 pmichaud okay
23:30 pmichaud let me fire up my other box and see if I can make the trivial change and spectest it while still working on $otherjob tasks :)
23:31 TimToady back
23:32 TimToady vijs: say 'hello ' ~ 'world'
23:32 pmichaud TimToady: would   [ <twigil> <.before \w> ]?   be a better construction?
23:32 p6eval vijs 28279: OUTPUT«execute(): execute error: undefined at viv line
23:32 p6eval ..142.␤[{"T":"noun__S_value","BEG":4,"WS":1,"_sp​ecific":1,"SYM":"value","value":{"T":"value__S_q​uote","BEG":4,"WS":1,"_specific":1,"SYM":"quote"​,"quote":{"T":"quote__S_Single_Single","BEG":4,"​WS":1,"_specific":1,"SYM":["'","'"],"nibble"…
23:34 masak 'night, #perl6.
23:34 TimToady o\
23:35 masak that looks like someone scratching his head. :)
23:35 TimToady pmichaud: possibly, though it may be that I had that and was working around some difficulty
23:35 TimToady masak: that's because we don't know what to think when you're gone
23:35 pmichaud I know what to think:  "Gee, I wonder when masak++ will be back."
23:36 TimToady well, if I said /o\ you'd feel guilty about leaving
23:36 masak :)
23:36 diakopter TimToady: lol.
23:36 masak I'll try to sleep quickly.
23:36 diakopter _o_
23:36 masak flight attendant.
23:37 diakopter |_o_|
23:37 pmichaud |-o-|   # tie fighter
23:37 TimToady sending semaphores?
23:37 TimToady »ö« <-- Darth Camelia
23:38 frew_ joined #perl6
23:38 sjohnson tie fighter heh
23:38 sjohnson i remember my brother one that old DOS game in a raffle
23:38 sjohnson we never played it
23:39 sjohnson one => won
23:40 diakopter what a great game.  I still play the theme jingles on a piano whenever I see one.  kindof annoying of me, I know.
23:42 jrtayloriv joined #perl6
23:54 colomon I never played TIE Fighter, but I played a good bit of X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, and it was great fun.

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