Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-10-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 TimToady seems like a smop to make a timeout actually say "TIMEOUT"
00:19 googe joined #perl6
00:33 cotto joined #perl6
00:34 colomon Looks like the relevant evalbot code is in pugs/misc/evalbot/lib/EvalbotExecuter.pm
00:46 ihrd left #perl6
00:47 pugs_svn r28632 | lwall++ | [IO] clarify semantics and usage of note()
00:48 rhr_ joined #perl6
00:51 crythias joined #perl6
00:59 crythias joined #perl6
01:00 diakopter colomon: were you going to make that change?  I can, if you like
01:01 colomon diakopter: I have no idea how to make that change, alas.
01:01 colomon so feel free to!
01:02 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
01:04 * diakopter learned Perl's alarm quite a several years ago.  /me goes to relearn it
01:04 * sjohnson throws the Perl Album on the CD player
01:08 colomon diakopter: If you want to provide a running narrative of what it takes to do it, I'm all ears.
01:08 colomon :)
01:09 sjohnson i want to buy "The Camel Book, narrated by TimToady" on iTunes
01:09 quietfanatic joined #perl6
01:11 diakopter narrated!  lol!  there's a video!!?!?
01:12 diakopter oh
01:15 diakopter colomon: well I'm installing an alarm signal handler that exits with a special error code, which will allegedly appear in $? after wait; is done
01:16 orafu joined #perl6
01:22 diakopter evalbot control restart
01:22 p6eval joined #perl6
01:27 colomon diakopter: so should this be the new evalbot?
01:28 diakopter well
01:28 diakopter I'm testing it
01:28 diakopter didn't seem to work.
01:31 ihrd joined #perl6
01:32 diakopter and I broke other stuff :)
01:32 diakopter sec
01:33 alanhaggai joined #perl6
01:33 diakopter evalbot control restart
01:33 p6eval joined #perl6
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | lwall++ | [STD]
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | comment out useless file-scoped context declarators
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | remove all the no-longer-used {*} entries as eyesores
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | cut down the overview to those notes still in effect
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | getting readier to refactor sublanguages out to separate files
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | first to move out will be P5Regex
01:45 pugs_svn r28633 | also planning to move out symbol table and error service routines
01:46 diakopter evalbot control restart
01:46 p6eval joined #perl6
01:48 jaldhar_ joined #perl6
01:53 diakopter evalbot control restart
01:53 p6eval joined #perl6
01:58 p6eval joined #perl6
01:59 p6eval joined #perl6
02:00 crythias why don't you just call it yoyo
02:00 crythias or elevator
02:01 rhr joined #perl6
02:01 ihrd left #perl6
02:02 p6eval joined #perl6
02:04 quietfanatic rakudo: sleep 20
02:04 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«TIMED_OUT»
02:06 colomon \o/
02:06 colomon rakudo: say sin(pi+1);
02:06 quietfanatic whoops
02:07 quietfanatic diakopter: did you break evalbot?
02:07 p6eval joined #perl6
02:07 diakopter rakudo: say sin(pi+1);
02:08 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«-0.841470984807896␤»
02:08 diakopter sprixel: my $a=0; 1 while ++$a < 60000; say $a
02:08 diakopter rakudo: sleep 99999999999999999999999999
02:08 p6eval sprixel 28633: TIMED_OUT
02:08 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
02:08 crythias raduko: sleep while 1==1;
02:09 diakopter kaduro: wait while fork
02:09 quietfanatic s/raduko/rakudo/
02:09 quietfanatic rakudo: sleep while 1==1
02:09 quietfanatic Actually...
02:09 crythias hee
02:09 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
02:09 quietfanatic rakudo: sleep
02:10 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
02:10 quietfanatic is the simplest way.
02:10 crythias sudoku: 1 2 3 7 4 6 9 8 5
02:10 quietfanatic orz
02:11 quietfanatic perl6: sleep
02:11 pugs_svn r28634 | diakopter++ | [evalbot] added a TIMED_OUT message ++quietfanatic ++TimToady ++colomon --diakopter --diakopter --diakopter --diakopter
02:11 p6eval elf 28633:  ( no output )
02:11 p6eval ..sprixel 28633: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric lt (<) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric gt (>) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric lt (<) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric gt (>) at STD.pm line 40798.␤»
02:11 p6eval ..rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
02:11 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    at /tmp/a9shu8z8ry line 2, column 1␤»
02:12 diakopter std: sleep
02:12 quietfanatic std: sleep
02:12 p6eval std 28633: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric lt (<) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric gt (>) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric lt (<) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric gt (>) at STD.pm line 40798.␤ok 00:02
02:12 p6eval ..105m␤»
02:12 p6eval std 28633: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in numeric lt (<) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric gt (>) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric lt (<) at STD.pm line 40798.␤Use of uninitialized value in numeric gt (>) at STD.pm line 40798.␤ok 00:02
02:12 p6eval ..105m␤»
02:12 diakopter say wha
02:13 quietfanatic pugs: sleep
02:13 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected end of input␤    at /tmp/DzKxbWJcja line 2, column 1␤»
02:14 diakopter if ($arg->{'_from'} < $op->{'_from'}) { # postfix
02:14 diakopter pugs: sleep 2
02:14 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Unsafe function 'sleep' called under safe mode␤    at /tmp/tEgcUZjCnE line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
02:14 diakopter pugs: sleep()
02:14 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No compatible multi variant found: "&sleep"␤    at /tmp/ZtnQVDklbj line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
02:14 diakopter pugs: sleeple
02:14 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&sleeple"␤    at /tmp/BSuiRN0jiR line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
02:15 crythias sprixel: function shake(mymoneymaker)
02:15 p6eval sprixel 28633: OUTPUT«Undeclared routines:␤      function used at line 1␤  mymoneymaker used at line 1␤      shake used at line 1␤»
02:19 diakopter 1517 occurences of  if $::DEBUG  in STD.pmc.... I wonder if those were commented out...
02:19 TimToady you might get a % or two
02:19 frodwith joined #perl6
02:22 Woodi joined #perl6
02:27 diakopter std: my $a=0; 1 while ++$a < 40000; say $a
02:27 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 103m␤»
02:28 diakopter std: "function ()"
02:28 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 94m␤»
02:28 diakopter std: "function (){ }"
02:28 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 94m␤»
02:28 diakopter std: "function (){ say 4 }"
02:28 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 95m␤»
02:28 diakopter std: "function (){ say $a }"
02:28 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/5N2NAPOeJX line 1:␤------> [32m"function (){ say $a[33m⏏[31m }"[0m␤ok 00:02 97m␤»
02:28 quietfanatic Wait, is function a keyword?
02:28 diakopter std: "function (){ gripe $a }"
02:28 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/p8snJ6O1et line 1:␤------> [32m"function (){ gripe $a[33m⏏[31m }"[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤ gripe used at line 1␤ok 00:02 97m␤»
02:28 * quietfanatic didn't notice the quotes
02:28 diakopter std: "function (){ gripe \$a }"
02:28 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤  Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/etcVLvZovE line 1:␤------> [32m"function (){ gripe \$a[33m⏏[31m }"[0m␤Undeclared routine:␤        gripe used at line 1␤ok 00:02 97m␤»
02:28 quietfanatic Hohoh!
02:29 diakopter hohos are tasty
02:29 quietfanatic Bet you've never had hohohs though.
02:29 diakopter no
02:31 diakopter std:
02:31 diakopter std:
02:32 quietfanatic rakudo: sleep
02:32 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
02:32 TimToady why _?
02:33 diakopter oh
02:33 diakopter I don't kown
02:34 envi^home joined #perl6
02:34 diakopter EOUTTATIME
02:35 diakopter EOUTATIME
02:36 diakopter http://www.entertainmentearth.com/i​mages/%5CAUTOIMAGES%5CDC21010lg.jpg
02:37 diakopter http://images.forum-auto.com/​mesimages/327677/outatime.jpg
02:39 diakopter rakudo: my $a='99'; say \\$a
02:39 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«99␤»
02:40 quietfanatic rakudo: my $a='99'; say (\\$a).WHAT
02:40 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
02:40 quietfanatic Shouldn't that be Capture or something?
02:40 quietfanatic rakudo: my $a='99'; say (\($a)).WHAT
02:40 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«Str()␤»
02:40 quietfanatic Now that really ought to be Capture().
02:41 quietfanatic unless the \() notation is gone.
02:41 quietfanatic rakudo: my $a='99'; say (¢($a)).WHAT
02:41 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " (\x{a2}($a)).W"␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2562)␤»
02:42 quietfanatic rakudo: my $a='99'; say (@%($a)).WHAT
02:42 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " (@%($a))."␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:2562)␤»
02:45 diakopter std: /''/
02:45 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 94m␤»
02:45 quietfanatic std: //
02:45 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null regex not allowed at /tmp/nqn0HhMfgR line 1:␤------> [32m//[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:01 93m␤»
02:45 quietfanatic That's what's not allowed.
02:46 quietfanatic std: /|/
02:46 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/U6ABzFhIVy line 1:␤------> [32m/|[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:02 94m␤»
02:46 quietfanatic std: /|3|4/
02:46 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 94m␤»
02:46 quietfanatic std: /|3|4|/
02:46 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/o1oPLRx6ba line 1:␤------> [32m/|3|4|[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:02 94m␤»
02:46 diakopter std: /[]/
02:46 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/jGZtAbMVTp line 1:␤------> [32m/[[33m⏏[31m]/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:03 94m␤»
02:46 diakopter std: /|[]/
02:46 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/XBtGxu9Alh line 1:␤------> [32m/|[[33m⏏[31m]/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:02 94m␤»
02:46 quietfanatic std: /[<?>]/
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 95m␤»
02:47 diakopter std: /||/
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/JHp770wPSp line 1:␤------> [32m/||[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:01 94m␤»
02:47 quietfanatic std: /</
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/So3g3UXPOk line 1:␤------> [32m/<[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 95m␤»
02:47 diakopter std: />/
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unmatched closing bracket at /tmp/ic7IMIggDm line 1:␤------> [32m/[33m⏏[31m>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:01 94m␤»
02:47 quietfanatic std: /</>/
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/AfPSobainj line 1:␤------> [32m/<[33m⏏[31m/>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 94m␤»
02:47 diakopter std: /<>/
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/tTn3ZMTrhR line 1:␤------> [32m/<[33m⏏[31m>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 94m␤»
02:47 diakopter std: /<:>/
02:47 quietfanatic std: /<??>/
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/9h0LlTyyT6 line 1:␤------> [32m/<[33m⏏[31m:>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 94m␤»
02:47 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 94m␤»
02:48 diakopter std: /<:?>/
02:48 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/Y6C9TqEBg1 line 1:␤------> [32m/<[33m⏏[31m:?>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤       assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:02 94m␤»
02:48 quietfanatic std: /<???>/
02:48 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 97m␤»
02:48 quietfanatic std: /<??????????????????>/
02:48 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/UMVdLmZHFk line 1:␤------> [32m/<???[33m⏏[31m???????????????>/[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:48 quietfanatic TimToady well?
02:48 diakopter std: /<???!!!>/
02:48 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/9wP7ekbcnX line 1:␤------> [32m/<???[33m⏏[31m!!!>/[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:48 diakopter std: /<??!!>/
02:48 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:49 quietfanatic std: /<????>/
02:49 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/M3TFAzvN20 line 1:␤------> [32m/<???[33m⏏[31m?>/[0m␤FAILED 00:02 96m␤»
02:49 diakopter std: /<0??1!!2>/
02:49 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/hWOqvAsMOm line 1:␤------> [32m/<[33m⏏[31m0??1!!2>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:49 diakopter std: /<<>>/
02:49 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:49 diakopter std: /<<<>>>/
02:49 quietfanatic std: /<? ???>/
02:49 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/8b1GjEP7wt line 1:␤------> [32m/<<<[33m⏏[31m>>>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:49 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/dgLnVlYQNW line 1:␤------> [32m/<?[33m⏏[31m ???>/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    assertion␤        name␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:49 quietfanatic std: /<!?>/
02:50 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:50 diakopter std: !/&/
02:50 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/oeVsMTZRg4 line 1:␤------> [32m!/&[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:01 99m␤»
02:50 quietfanatic std: /<!??>/
02:50 diakopter std: !/&&/
02:50 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 96m␤»
02:50 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/f2XWaPr8XF line 1:␤------> [32m!/&&[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:03 99m␤»
02:50 diakopter std: !/&<?>/
02:50 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 100m␤»
02:50 diakopter std: /&&<?>/
02:50 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:50 diakopter std: /&&/
02:51 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null pattern not allowed at /tmp/u8oxJZoNEr line 1:␤------> [32m/&&[33m⏏[31m/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     termish␤ ws␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:51 quietfanatic std: /<!!>/
02:51 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:51 quietfanatic std: /<!!!>/
02:51 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:51 quietfanatic std: /<!!!!>/
02:51 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/Vz1aYGipBB line 1:␤------> [32m/<!!![33m⏏[31m!>/[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:51 diakopter one might think we're trying to fill irclog's db
02:51 quietfanatic std: /<?!>/
02:51 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 96m␤»
02:51 quietfanatic std: /<!???>/
02:51 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:52 cottoo joined #perl6
02:52 quietfanatic std: /<!????>/
02:52 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/wJs2KjL7VY line 1:␤------> [32m/<!???[33m⏏[31m?>/[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:52 quietfanatic std: /<!!???>/
02:52 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:52 quietfanatic std: /<!!!???>/
02:52 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/IKYhq9wrup line 1:␤------> [32m/<!!![33m⏏[31m???>/[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:53 quietfanatic I don't quite understand what rules it's using here.
02:54 diakopter one could read the grammar. or the spec.  wait, whom am I kidding?
02:54 quietfanatic I SHALL READ THE GRAMMAR!
02:54 _jaldhar_ joined #perl6
02:55 cotto joined #perl6
02:55 Util joined #perl6
02:57 diakopter std: \
02:57 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 96m␤»
02:58 quietfanatic What's so funny about unspace?
02:58 quietfanatic std: /\/
02:58 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Regex missing terminator at /tmp/lRUdWIjfGH line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32m/\/[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:02 97m␤»
02:58 diakopter std: \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
02:58 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
02:58 quietfanatic std: /\ /
02:58 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤No unspace allowed in regex (for literal please quote with single quotes) at /tmp/VgK3nB7bBq line 1:␤------> [32m/\[33m⏏[31m /[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
02:58 quietfanatic cute!
02:58 diakopter std: /\' '/
02:59 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤(Possible runaway string from line 1)␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find final '/' at /tmp/449eWG0Pj0 line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32m/\' '/[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤    expecting escape␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
03:00 quietfanatic std: /\' '\/ \/' \'/
03:00 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
03:00 quietfanatic According to what I understand from the grammar, /<!!!!>/ should parse.
03:00 diakopter std: /\' '/\'/'\/ '/'\//\
03:00 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 96m␤»
03:01 quietfanatic std: /<!!!!>/
03:01 p6eval std 28634: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/85tGHxoNmt line 1:␤------> [32m/<!!![33m⏏[31m!>/[0m␤FAILED 00:01 96m␤»
03:02 diakopter TimToady: std uses 96MiB with the $::DEBUG lines; 75MiB without them
03:02 quietfanatic It should parse as assertion:<!> containing assertion:<!!!>.
03:02 diakopter wait, no.  94MiB without them.
03:03 diakopter sry
03:03 quietfanatic Still, 2 meggers is significant.
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03:09 quietfanatic sprixel: say (1, 2, (3, 4), 5).map(*+1).perl
03:09 p6eval sprixel 28634: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: real method calls NYI␤»
03:31 pugs_svn r28635 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #69460
03:31 pugs_svn r28636 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT #69378
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03:52 pugs_svn r28637 | lwall++ | [STD] fix P5Regex quantified atom capture just like we did Regex yesterday
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04:06 * mberends enjoys an exciting backlog and looks forward to committing sprixel's test harness from $work
04:08 quietfanatic Okay, /<!!!!>/ should fail, but not with that error message.
04:08 quietfanatic std: /<!!!!>/
04:08 p6eval std 28636: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at /tmp/mbiQ0pPcBZ line 1:␤------> [32m/<!!![33m⏏[31m!>/[0m␤FAILED 00:02 97m␤»
04:08 quietfanatic Well, maybe it should.
04:08 quietfanatic Grr.
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04:54 pugs_svn r28638 | lwall++ | [STD] break P5Regex grammar out from STD to separate file
04:54 pugs_svn r28638 | P5 grammar will only be loaded on demand
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06:51 moritz_ \o/
06:51 diakopter moritz_: hi
06:52 diakopter rakudo: sleep 20
06:52 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
06:52 diakopter sprixel: loop (;1;) {}
06:53 p6eval sprixel 28638: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: /_undefined_/ not yet implemented; apologies from the crew!␤»
06:53 quietfanatic :)
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06:53 diakopter wait wha
06:53 diakopter pika FIRE
06:54 diakopter PK FIRE
06:54 quietfanatic It's PK fire.
06:54 quietfanatic Yeah.
06:54 diakopter oh.
06:54 diakopter sprixel: 1 while 1
06:54 p6eval sprixel 28638: TIMED_OUT
06:54 quietfanatic That won't keep running like the rakudo: sleep did, will it?
06:54 mberends diakopter: R U ready to merge Test.pm.js ?
06:54 diakopter checking
06:55 diakopter mberends: whaddya mean merge
06:55 mberends I'm about to commit some changes - hopefully they don't collide with anything you're doing in that file
06:55 carlin rakudo: 'foo' ~~ /<ws>*/;
06:55 diakopter haven't done anything
06:56 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
06:56 mberends ok, preparing commit...
06:56 diakopter carlin: it's rebuilding rakudo atm... does that repeat forever for you?
06:56 quietfanatic it may be matching the zero-width pattern infinite times
06:56 carlin diakopter: Yip
06:57 diakopter oh
06:58 diakopter moritz_: g'morning
06:58 moritz_ good morning
07:01 mberends :) moritz_
07:01 diakopter std: say 'I\'m faster now'
07:02 p6eval std 28638: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 95m␤»
07:02 diakopter o wait
07:02 moritz_ I've seen the TIMEOUT changes to p6eval in the backlog - diakopter++
07:04 diakopter TimToady wants the _ removed
07:05 diakopter and maybe the D as well
07:05 pugs_svn r28639 | mberends++ | [sprixel] first cut at skip(), 'make spectest' improved
07:06 diakopter ++quietfanatic figured out the 'exit 14' -> $? == 14  thing
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07:13 diakopter phenny: tell diakopter g'morning
07:13 phenny You can tell yourself that.
07:13 diakopter_ phenny: tell diakopter g'morning
07:13 phenny diakopter_: I'll pass that on when diakopter is around.
07:19 avuserow rakudo: say 1 + "nancy"
07:19 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:19 avuserow rakudo: say "nancy" + 1
07:19 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:19 avuserow rakudo: say "NaNcy" + 1
07:19 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:19 avuserow perl6: say "nancy" + 1
07:19 p6eval pugs, rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:19 p6eval ..elf 28639: OUTPUT«Argument "\x{6e}\x{61}..." isn't numeric in addition (+) at (eval 124) line 3.␤nan␤»
07:19 p6eval ..sprixel 28639: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: TypeError: Object nancy has no method 'do_Additive'␤»
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07:29 avuserow perl6: say undef + 1
07:30 p6eval sprixel 28639: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: /_term__S_undef_/ not yet implemented; apologies from the crew!␤»
07:30 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:30 p6eval ..rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤1␤»
07:30 p6eval ..elf 28639: OUTPUT«␤»
07:30 avuserow perl6: say undef ~ 1
07:30 p6eval sprixel 28639: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: /_term__S_undef_/ not yet implemented; apologies from the crew!␤»
07:30 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:30 p6eval ..rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤1␤»
07:30 p6eval ..elf 28639: OUTPUT«␤»
07:31 avuserow rakudo: my Str $a = "Nancy"; my Int $b = 1; say $a + $b
07:31 p6eval rakudo d91717: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:31 avuserow pugs: my Str $a = "Nancy"; my Int $b = 1; say $a + $b
07:31 p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
07:31 avuserow sprixel: my Str $a = "Nancy"; my Int $b = 1; say $a + $b
07:31 p6eval sprixel 28639: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: TypeError: Cannot read property 'M' of undefined␤»
07:31 avuserow elf: my Str $a = "Nancy"; my Int $b = 1; say $a + $b
07:31 p6eval elf 28639: OUTPUT«Argument "\x{4e}\x{61}..." isn't numeric in addition (+) at (eval 123) line 5.␤nan␤»
07:34 moritz_ dukeleto++ # http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/10​/perls-of-wisdom-perl-foundation-parrots.html
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08:25 jnthn oh morning
08:27 moritz_ \o/
08:34 Matt-W \o/ jnthn
08:35 * jnthn will make his first Rakudo commit in over a month later on today. :-)
08:35 Matt-W WHEEEEEEEEE
08:36 Matt-W is it huge and exciting?
08:39 * Matt-W may be suffering from morning giddiness and exciteability
08:39 jnthn Matt-W: Not yet
08:39 * jnthn hasn't even written the content of first commit yet ;-)
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08:40 Matt-W :(
08:42 jnthn Matt-W: Don't worry. Huge and exciting will be on the way.
08:44 Matt-W hurrah
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08:56 * spinclad poings around the room like an alleged ferret
08:58 spinclad ^v^ 'huge and exciting,' v^v 'my natural state' ^v^
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09:34 carlin I hate it when I think I've discovered a bug but can't test it through p6eval
09:35 carlin Oh!
09:35 carlin rakudo: class Foo { use Test; }
09:35 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
09:36 carlin No ...
09:36 carlin rakudo: class Foo { use Test; }
09:36 p6eval rakudo d91717: TIMED_OUT
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09:47 carlin http://gist.github.com/202884 # known?
09:49 masak don't think so.
09:49 phenny masak: 05 Oct 23:29Z <Tene> tell masak You should add weblocks to your list of web frameworks to look at.
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09:52 masak ooh! another continuations-based framework!
09:54 Tene I've heard very good things about weblocks.  Very high praise.
09:54 Tene afk sleep
09:55 Matt-W oooh
09:55 Matt-W I liked the look of Seaside
09:55 Matt-W but I didn't really want to have to deal with a Smalltalk environment
10:01 Matt-W Be nice to have something like that in Perl 6
10:02 Matt-W "When the user clicks on the appropriate link (or button), Weblocks maps the click back to the callback. If the callback is a lexical closure, the programmer will have the full context in which the closure was created despite the fact that it was created during a completely different HTTP request" yum
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11:57 carlin http://github.com/carlins/mwbot # Now using JSON
11:57 carlin 'Night all
11:57 masak carlin: oops, my bad. it was reported. http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=64688 -- marking as duplicate.
12:05 masak can we consider changing the white text on yellow background to black on yellow in http://perl6.org/ ?
12:06 moritz_ as long as all the >>MORE<< links have the same color, yes
12:06 moritz_ don't know if black is best
12:07 masak there needs to be more contrast, at least.
12:09 masak jonalv++, my colleague, pointed this out.
12:09 moritz_ then please go ahead
12:09 * masak changes all the >>MORE<< links to a darker color
12:12 * moritz_ hopes that masak++ just has to change a few lines of CSS
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12:12 takadonet morning all
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12:20 moritz_ masak: maybe the dark blue from camelia's link might be a good color
12:20 masak good idea. I'll try that.
12:21 masak waitaminute, which dark blue?
12:21 masak there's one white link in the header, and one black.
12:23 masak a darkish blue works quite well, though. I'll commit that.
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12:24 moritz_ I meant the blue from the 6 and 9 and camelia's wings
12:25 masak oh, "wings", not "link". now I get it.
12:26 * moritz_ a bit distracted. Sorry.
12:26 pugs_svn r28640 | masak++ | [perl6.org] made links dark blue instead of white
12:26 pugs_svn r28640 |
12:26 pugs_svn r28640 | The white didn't contrast enough with the pale yellow background in
12:26 pugs_svn r28640 | some of the boxes.
12:26 moritz_ got a new colleage from the Ukraine, and so far I found at least 3 different mis-spellings of his name in that various departments
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12:32 jnthn moritz_: Because it was transliterated in 3 different ways? :-)
12:33 moritz_ jnthn: yes
12:34 slavik2 moritz_: sounds about right ... what's his name?
12:34 jnthn moritz_: There's more than one way to translit it. :-)
12:34 jnthn moritz_: Is it really too hard to just use the cyrillic? ;-)
12:35 slavik2 haha
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12:35 slavik2 my name makes much more sense in Cyrillic than in Latin
12:35 masak Cyrillic makes much more sense in Cyrillic than in Latin.
12:36 jnthn Ес, бут латин ин сириллик ис од.
12:38 moritz_ I don't know his cyrillic name, and it's hardly my place to give away
12:40 moritz_ but the administration people are oddly attached to latin here
12:41 jnthn Righty. Rakudo time!
12:45 moritz_ jnthn: so what are you working on today?
12:45 jnthn moritz_: Initial pieces towards signature handling changes.
12:46 moritz_ jnthn: great. Has you grant been approved?
12:46 jnthn moritz_: Yes.
12:47 moritz_ even better!
12:47 jnthn moritz_: But not announced on news.perlfoundation.org yet, but I got email saying it has been.
12:48 moritz_ just wanted to write that it hasn't been announced :)
12:48 jnthn Yeah
12:48 jnthn I'm sure TPF will get to it.
12:48 * jnthn gets a clean Parrot tree built, since the updated one SEGV'd somehow.
12:49 masak Rakudo time! \o/
12:51 * jnthn really hopes this Parrot build works...
12:52 jnthn AARRRGH!
12:52 jnthn .\miniparrot.exe config_lib.pasm > runtime\parrot\include\config.fpmc
12:53 jnthn NMAKE : fatal error U1077: '.\miniparrot.exe' : return code '0xc0000005'
12:53 jnthn miniparrot.exe segfaults.
12:53 masak :/
12:53 moritz_ trunk HEAD?
12:54 jnthn moritz_: Whatever PARROT_REVISION wants, I just did a clean --gen-parrot
12:54 jnthn Nuked my tree and all that lot.
12:54 jnthn So it's not leftovers.
12:55 moritz_ did you also delete parrot_install/ ?
12:55 moritz_ anyway, we could just as well dump PARROT_REVISION to current HEAD to get some testing
12:56 jnthn moritz_: yup
12:56 jnthn moritz_: trying head now
12:56 moritz_ s/dump/bump/
12:58 jnthn .oO( we could just as well dump parrot... )
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13:03 jnthn OK, so
13:03 jnthn turns out we switched to optimized Parrot by defualt.
13:07 masak "fast but wrong"?
13:09 jnthn More like "fails to build quite fast" :-)
13:09 jnthn That is, Parrot fails to build. Doesn't evne get to building Rakudo.
13:09 Matt-W doh
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13:11 moritz_ so, what's up with proto?
13:11 moritz_ specifically with the installed-modules branch
13:16 mberends er, sorry sir, I found this toy called sprixel and forgot about proto... temporarily :/
13:16 masak :)
13:17 mberends it's a damn good excuse imho
13:17 moritz_ aye
13:17 masak moritz_: I'm reading the TODO list at the end of the proto script. it seems to be coming along nicely. up to step 11 completely done. step 12 part done.
13:17 masak mberends++
13:17 masak I'm thinking of givein that branch a spin. I'm looking forward to the benefits a centralized lib/ will bring.
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13:21 mberends masak: we can rendezvous in proto later in the week, tuits permitting
13:21 dalek rakudo: f845ccf | jonathan++ | Configure.pl:
13:21 dalek rakudo: On Win32, the optimized Parrot does not even build, so don't do --optimize on Win32 for now.
13:21 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f​845ccf9b0766518c8fd2f4522fc6ac1afb5bb22
13:22 masak mberends: aye. for great justice.
13:22 mberends masak: and world peace.
13:22 masak mberends: I'll also see if I can't sneak in a few tuits for the temporal-flux implementation.
13:22 masak mberends: yes, but someone set up us the bomb.
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13:23 mberends masak: urghh :(
13:23 masak did I mention recently how extremely unhelpful the line 'in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3468)' is?
13:23 masak it contains negative usefulness.
13:31 colomon masak: It is correct, isn't it?  I mean, you could look up src/gen_setting.pm:3468 and figure out what file the problem actually was in.
13:31 colomon (disclaimer: not that I have tried this myself, mind you.  I always just look where I've just made the change.)
13:32 jnthn No, it seems tos how that on parse errors, so it's useless.
13:32 masak nod.
13:34 colomon Oh, it's the last line of the file.  I see.
13:34 colomon negative usefulness indeed.
13:35 masak I've ticketed it, but I seemed to have excess LTA rage inside me.
13:35 masak I feel better now.
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13:39 Matt-W masak: breathe deeply
13:39 Matt-W It is very much less than awesome
13:39 Matt-W But we will survive the dark time
13:40 Matt-W and one day rejoice when it goes away
13:40 masak \o/
13:40 Matt-W does pmichaud's new rx engine have amazing error reporting potential?
13:40 masak possibly. it's supposed to bring us closer to STD.pm, so...
13:41 * jnthn digs into some refactoring.
13:41 jnthn oh man, where to start...
13:41 Util perl6 .say for @*INC;
13:42 Util perl6: .say for @*INC;
13:42 p6eval rakudo f845cc: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤/home/p6eval//p1/l​ib/parrot/1.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤lib␤.␤»
13:42 p6eval ..elf 28640: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at ./elf_h line 5105.␤syntax error at (eval 122) line 4, near "{␤->say"␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
13:42 p6eval ..sprixel 28640: OUTPUT«Sprixel Error: @INC is not defined␤»
13:42 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
13:43 Util rakudo: .say for @*INC;
13:43 p6eval rakudo f845cc: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤/home/p6eval//p1/l​ib/parrot/1.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤lib␤.␤»
13:43 PerlJam jnthn: begin at the beginning and continue until the end.  Then stop
13:43 Util rakudo: BEGIN { unshift @*INC, "kibble" }; .say for @*INC;
13:43 p6eval rakudo f845cc: OUTPUT«kibble␤/home/p6eval/.perl6/l​ib␤/home/p6eval//p1/lib/parrot/1.6.​0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤lib␤.␤»
13:43 jnthn PerlJam: Suddenly it's all clear to me!
13:43 jnthn ;-)
13:43 Util rakudo: use lib "kibble"; .say for @*INC;
13:43 p6eval rakudo f845cc: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤/home/p6eval//p1/l​ib/parrot/1.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤lib␤.␤»
13:43 PerlJam jnthn: or for more fun ... begin in the middle and work your way outward until you reach the edges.  Then stop.   :-)
13:43 Util :(
13:44 PerlJam jnthn: what are you refactoring?
13:44 jnthn PerlJam: Initially, signatures.
13:44 jnthn But that's a big thingy.
13:45 jnthn My initial task is to refactor the way actions deal with signatures, to make things neater, use more compile time knowledge at compile time, and get the signature AST generation pulled out into one place.
13:45 Util In Rakudo, `use lib` parses, but silently has no effect?
13:45 jnthn That won't win us much besides cleaner code initially.
13:46 jnthn Next step is re-do the way signatures are stored internally.
13:46 jnthn Then switch to constructing those.
13:46 masak ah, a signatures refactor.
13:46 jnthn With maybe a compatibility layer in, or maybe not.
13:47 jnthn After that, stop using Parrot's signature binder and start using our own.
13:47 masak that'll close a couple of signatures tickets, I imagine.
13:47 PerlJam Util: apparently
13:49 jnthn Then finally, all the missing signatures features.
13:49 Matt-W Cleaner code as a first step is probably a good thing, if it lets you see what to do next more easily
13:49 jnthn Matt-W: Yes, I think this is a place to start.
13:49 Matt-W And since we have a good test suite, it's easier to go in and do these things
13:49 jnthn a *good* place
13:49 Matt-W At my work, we don't have a good test suite, so we just can't
13:49 * Matt-W is really coming over to TDD
13:49 Matt-W or at least, comprehensive unit testing
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13:49 Util I cannot find any references to `use lib` in the specs, although S19 list `-I` as doing the equivalent, like `-I` did on Perl5's command-line.
13:49 Matt-W Util: so far I've only seen Perl 6 code say BEGIN { @*INC.push: 'foo' }
13:50 Matt-W I'm not sure if that's supposed to be the final form of it
13:50 Util Matt-W: Me, too.
13:50 diakopter phenny: g'morning
13:50 phenny diakopter: 07:13Z <diakopter_> tell diakopter g'morning
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13:55 mberends g'morning diakopter
13:56 diakopter mberends: howdy
13:59 diakopter mberends: have you explored other .t that (could possibly) have some that pass?
13:59 * diakopter hasn't finished backlogging
14:01 mberends diakopter: no, but spectest.data has a few files commented out that were partly working but died after a recent update
14:02 diakopter oh :)
14:03 mberends S04-statement-modifiers/if.t S04-statements/do.t S04-statements/for.t S04-statements/if.t S04-statements/while.t
14:07 masak rakudo: class MyMatch does Associative { method postcircumfix:<{ }> { "foo" } }; $/ = MyMatch.new; say $0
14:08 p6eval rakudo f845cc: OUTPUT«get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'MyMatch'␤in Main (/tmp/6peZmmL4bY:0)␤»
14:08 * masak submits rakudobug
14:10 mberends diakopter: next spectest improvement will be skipping blocks of code, including non-test lines. Thereafter, a spectest.data todo directive to complement the skip directive.
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14:26 mberends diakopter: I'll explore other spec/*/*.t files manually in the next few days. Later on there will be a harness extension to automatically search for more tests.
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14:32 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:32 moritz_ oh hai
14:34 jnthn pmichaud: morning :-)
14:34 masak morning, pmichaud
14:34 Matt-W o/ pmichaud
14:35 jnthn heh wtf
14:35 jnthn Failed 20/435 test scripts. -1306/29613 subtests failed.
14:36 masak negative information again :)
14:36 jnthn Literally.
14:37 masak hm, if you failed a negative amount of subtests, does that mean that you passed more than the available amount of subtests?
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15:28 masak wow. it's like the air just cleared up in here. :)
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15:28 moritz_ somebody complained in #parrot that they couldn't join - I thought I might eliminate a few possible causes :-)
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15:30 moritz_ and it worked. Welcome pyrimidine
15:30 pyrimidine o/
15:31 pyrimidine what was the problem?  Was I banned for being generally annoying?  ;)
15:31 masak
15:31 moritz_ chances are that sombody banned a spammer with a dynamic IP
15:31 moritz_ and then you got into the same IP range
15:32 moritz_ due to dynamic IP assignment from ISP
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15:32 pyrimidine interesting, as I'm at university
15:34 frettled masak: ∆?
15:34 frettled oh.
15:34 * frettled goes d'oh.
15:34 moritz_ pyrimidine: anyway, I find that banning reasons usually decay, but the bans themselves don't
15:35 frettled moritz_: are you trying to ∫ ∆?
15:35 masak we're an integral group.
15:35 frettled
15:36 diakopter but discrete.
15:36 TimToady we're an integral group, and a Infinoid group and a renormalist group
15:37 pyrimidine moritz_: makes sense.
15:38 masak luckily, we're not all masakists.
15:38 pmichaud I'm a member of all groups that refuse to have me as a member of the group.
15:38 frettled TimToady: and some may even claim that we're both rational and complex.
15:38 frettled pmichaud: you're of course welcome to be a member of that group
15:38 pmichaud darn!
15:38 KyleHa I'm not sure I'd want to be a member of any group that would have me as a member.
15:38 TimToady then there's the group of all groups that do not include themselves
15:39 KyleHa Now I have to look that up so I know whose joke I'm stealing.
15:39 masak I'm not sure I'd want to be a member of a group that would refuse to have pmichaud as a member, but of which he of course would be welcome to be a member.
15:39 frettled KyleHa: Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), perhaps?
15:39 masak I think so.
15:39 KyleHa Groucho Marx, says the Google.
15:39 frettled On your nose.
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15:41 diakopter Go ogle Google
15:44 * jnthn manages to make actions.pm a little shorter
15:44 jnthn But breaks everything in the process. Whee.
15:44 * moritz_ prefers longer and working :-)
15:45 * jnthn is working on working now.
15:45 frettled It's by breaking things we learn how pretty they look when they are in pieces.  ;)
15:45 * ruoso trying to understand if "my $a = (1, (2, (3,4)))" flattens or not...
15:47 diakopter does $a contain 1 after that?
15:47 * diakopter clueless, as usual
15:48 TimToady no, scalar assignment shouldn't ever throw anything away
15:48 TimToady since the clear intent is to capture all those values somehow
15:48 TimToady it's the somehow that is puzzling
15:49 ruoso should I consider multidimensionality as something that shouldn't been thrown away?
15:49 masak I'm of the school of thought that software is best understood by selectively disabling pieces of it to see what breaks.
15:49 ruoso that was my original idea when I wrote the s08 sketch
15:49 TimToady intentionally breaking things?
15:49 TimToady :)
15:50 TimToady to me, the real question is not so much what the parens are, but what the commas are
15:51 ruoso er... I wasn't really focusing on the parens, but on the Parcels
15:51 ruoso ok... let me explain why I think it should preserve the dimensionality
15:51 TimToady that's sort of what I mean, since comma means something different in a Parcel than in a list
15:52 ruoso in my head, flattening is a process that involves getting an iterator and building another list
15:52 ruoso my @a = @b
15:52 ruoso that operation gets an iterator for @b, and keeps consuming it and putting it into @a
15:52 ruoso recursively traversing into parcels
15:53 ruoso the mark for that to happen is "list assignment"
15:53 ruoso scalar assignment happens at a more simple level...
15:53 ruoso my $a = $b
15:54 ruoso take $b as an item and store into the cell of the scalar referenced by the name $a
15:54 TimToady you just desribed binding
15:55 ruoso er...
15:55 ruoso no...
15:55 ruoso my $a := $b
15:55 ruoso take $b and store "as" the scalar referenced by the name $a
15:55 TimToady assignment needs to be described in terms of copying
15:56 ruoso it copies the value from the cell of $b to the cell of $a
15:56 ruoso while binding replaces $a
15:56 ruoso s/cell of (..)/$1's cell/
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16:01 pmurias ruoso: what do you think would be a good plan for mildew-js?
16:01 diakopter ruoso: I'm going to continue playing the naive questioner here... are you describing how the Perl user (in his/her mental model) should imagine what's going on during these operations, or are you describing one possible (or the only possible) implementation of these details?  Alternatively, are you saying that those are [or should be] the same models?
16:03 ruoso diakopter, I'm describing the conceptual model on how scalars work in Perl 6... they are containers that hold values, unlike Perl 5
16:03 ruoso pmurias, I think if you make all mildew tests run in mildew-js, it'd be awesome...
16:04 diakopter the all-implementation-details-exp​osed-as-user-accessible-types strategy has to be arrested at some point.
16:04 ruoso at the point that the implementation can cheat when it knows it's dealing only with its own types
16:05 ruoso but it shouldn't stop anyone from writing a completely new object that behave like a scalar...
16:08 diakopter the every-single-aspect-of-the-lan​guage-pluggable-at-every-level strategy must be arrested at some point, too.  If not, the only [kind of] implementation that will even/ever get close to "finished" is one that builds a custom interpreter for each program it's "compiling".
16:09 ruoso er... isn't that what the spec says?
16:10 masak :)
16:10 ruoso at least for the parser we know that's true
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16:12 ruoso in fact, that's the reason why I believe Perl 6 bootstrap is not just a "cool" thing to do, but it's actually necessary...
16:13 TimToady the circularity saw is under-specified :)
16:13 moritz_ masak: for our meeting tomorrow I have some brainstorming notes ... would you like to see them now, or tomorrow?
16:13 diakopter The parsers a Perl 6 grammar generates and uses are not pluggable at every level at runtime.
16:13 ruoso yet
16:13 TimToady :)
16:14 diakopter )o(
16:14 TimToady looks like a Darth Vader lol
16:15 masak moritz_: release early, by all means. but I think I need to write down my loose thoughts befpre reading yours, so I'll do that now. :)
16:15 diakopter oh, choking-at-a-distance; I get it
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16:18 ruoso diakopter, but seriously, this is one of the reasons Perl 6 is so cool... it sets the interpreter itself in the same level of the program being run, so you can extend it in very interesting way
16:18 ruoso *ways
16:19 TimToady we're just trying to figure out how to set up the defaults so that it's still optimizable while keeping that flexibility handy
16:19 TimToady hence the recent semantic changes to .wrap
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16:19 ruoso yeah... nothingmuch always manages to convince me SMOP will be damn fast
16:19 jnthn .oO( there was a change to .wrap )
16:19 diakopter don't get me wrong; I think it's cool for that reason too. And that's one of the reasons I chose JavaScript to host sprixel's VM, since it is the most late-bound env with closures
16:20 ruoso but still, I wouldn't be much optimistic on the VM supporting all Perl 6 semantics..
16:20 TimToady well, that's why we have multiple implementations, so we can thrash out where it's okay to apply the circularity saw, and where it isn't
16:20 ruoso the question is which subset of Perl 6 are you going to support
16:21 TimToady you have to support the subset specified by the spec tests :)
16:21 diakopter ruoso: I don't understand your msg "... I wouldn't be much optimistic... " please explain.
16:21 ruoso you're probably going to implement a VM on top of the VM, and that doesn't work quite well... see KindaPerl6... which was actually the reason I started SMOP
16:21 lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "brainstorming notes for masak++ (when he did his own)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/88288
16:22 ruoso otoh, you might choose to support the "subset of Perl 6 that can actually be run by V8"
16:22 masak moritz_: I'm done, here: http://gist.github.com/203173 -- now going to read yours.
16:22 ruoso and 'by V8' I mean still being able to interoperate with regular js code
16:23 masak oh, I got some more. hold on.
16:23 pmurias ruoso: that limit's the subset significantly
16:23 moritz_ masak: look pretty orthogonal to me for now ;-)
16:25 masak new list: http://gist.github.com/203173
16:25 pmurias ruoso: but interoperating with regular js code isn't a very important thing
16:25 ruoso pmurias, depends on your goals
16:25 pmurias as there is a limited number of js libraries
16:25 diakopter ruoso: just because kp6 is too slow doesn't mean all VMs-on-VMs will be too slow.
16:26 diakopter why would one need to interoperate with 'regular js code'?
16:26 masak moritz_: yes, fairly orthogonal. but also non-conflicting, which feels promising. :)
16:26 diakopter it's using js as an assembly language
16:26 TimToady diakopter: all implementations of all languages are "too slow" for some definition :)
16:26 ruoso interoperating with regular js code might be usefull if you consider programming in Perl 6 and delivering to the browser, for instancs...
16:27 masak hm, maybe "orthogonal" implies "non-conflicting", come to think of it.
16:27 pmurias ruoso: that's what i'm mostly interested in
16:27 diakopter TimToady: right, I'm proxying whatever definition ruoso was using.
16:27 diakopter (I mean, what else could he have meant by "didn't work"?)
16:27 ruoso diakopter, think about every single method call
16:28 ruoso that have to be dispatched by the Perl 6-level VM
16:28 pmurias not nessesarly
16:28 ruoso which then results in another several method calls in V8-level
16:28 ruoso you might cheat, in some circumstances
16:28 TimToady we're trying very hard to define when you can know that you can cheat
16:29 ruoso but if you're already doing that kind of optimization, it's probably premature
16:29 diakopter right, a p6 method call (pre-increment Int let's say) uses a few hundred JavaScript USER function calls, not to mention a few thousand JavaScript "prelude" function calls V8 has already compiled to machine code.
16:29 ruoso precisely, it's not VM + VM
16:29 ruoso is VM ** VM
16:30 TimToady well, *
16:30 moritz_ only-methods could short-circuit, kinda
16:30 TimToady the spec is pretty clear about when you can think about closing and finalizing classes
16:30 TimToady and now it is clearer about when you can do agressive inlining
16:31 TimToady of multis
16:31 ruoso they can short-circuit the discovery of which methods could be dispatched
16:31 ruoso but there's still the signature binding
16:31 ruoso the context for control exception
16:31 ruoso *exceptions
16:31 ruoso and other failures
16:32 ruoso take signature binding, for instance
16:32 ruoso Capture is not a native type
16:32 ruoso which means that you can't assume it's internal representation
16:32 ruoso which basically means that you need to call a method on the capture during the signature bind
16:32 ruoso and that you need a new capture to call a method on the capture
16:32 moritz_ so you can "tie" a Capture - how ugly
16:32 TimToady but if you can see that neither the caller nor the callee cares about Capture, you can optimize it away
16:33 ruoso moritz_, not ugly, powerfull
16:33 ruoso and it's not "tie"
16:33 ruoso it's "does"
16:33 moritz_ ruoso: those are not exclusive (powerfull and ugly)
16:33 diakopter but who Captures the Capturers?
16:34 TimToady .oO(Sauron)
16:34 * diakopter hears a dryer whistle
16:34 pmurias ruoso: i'm planning to encode the capture shape(?) in the js method name
16:34 ruoso at some point this circularity is broken because you're using your own native implementaiton
16:35 ruoso pmurias, capture shape?
16:36 pmurias javascript only has positional arguments
16:36 TimToady how...Parcelish
16:36 pmurias so i plan to encode how the named arguments are mapped onto positionals in the method name
16:36 pmurias js method name that is
16:36 diakopter well, you can mark any of them with whatever temporary tags you like.  or use your own Arguments type. or whatever.
16:37 TimToady or reserve 1st arg for nameds
16:37 diakopter or stash them in the callsite's "this"
16:37 diakopter without using argslots at all
16:37 TimToady just stick 'em in a global
16:37 pmurias ruoso: foo.bar_method_with_the_baz_named​_argument_as_the_first_positional
16:37 diakopter global registers, YES
16:37 diakopter heh
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16:38 TimToady to the first approximation, all computer memory is global :)
16:38 ruoso pmurias, er... you're basically saying you don't have captures
16:38 ruoso which is basically going to stop you very soon
16:39 pmurias ruoso: i have captures
16:39 ruoso a capture is an object
16:40 ruoso it's not just the way you lay out the arguments to a function call
16:40 TimToady gimme5 ignores the entire subject, and just assume caller/callee syncronization of foo p5=> 42 with my %args = @_
16:40 TimToady *assumes
16:40 pmurias ruoso: if you look at -Cjs from mildew-js you can see that they are handled in exactly the same way as in regular mildew
16:41 diakopter yes, a JS runtime can't use JS calling conventions to emulate P6 calling conventions.  however, remember you can "do whatever you want" in the JS runtime to support the callin convention semantics, just like you can "do whatever you want" in whatever host language you're implementing whatever VM.
16:41 TimToady for a price, usually
16:41 pmurias ruoso: that's just a planned future optimalisation which will allow the object to pretend captures don't exist or pack the arguments into a capture
16:41 ruoso which is usually too high
16:42 diakopter but it has to be done sometime.
16:42 TimToady I'm not too worried about the price until after we're completely bootstrapped
16:42 diakopter exactly.
16:42 ruoso diakopter, you mean a VM?
16:42 TimToady though, of course, the price also slows down getting to the bootstrap
16:42 ruoso well, that's what Parrot and SMOP are
16:43 ruoso KindaPerl6 followed this path
16:43 ruoso to the point that it was simply inviable to keep working on it
16:43 diakopter ruoso: yes, just talking about having 'Capture's at all means there will be a VM
16:43 ruoso note that I'm not against sprixel at all
16:43 pmurias ruoso: keep in mind that sprixel and mildew-js use a different approach
16:43 TimToady or at least some kind of mangling/demangling of argument lists
16:43 ruoso I'm just warning you where the wall is, so you avoid bumping your head on it
16:43 pmurias sprixel is a VM written in js while mildew-js compiles down to js
16:44 diakopter pmurias: they're not that different
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16:44 diakopter mildew-js's emitted JS is still interpreted in an analogous fashion
16:44 diakopter it just constructs the operation tree differently
16:45 ruoso what do you mean by "analogous fashion"?
16:45 pmurias stackless
16:45 ruoso ah... you're using the v8 stack
16:45 diakopter No.
16:45 diakopter No, and No.
16:45 pmurias s/using/not using/
16:46 diakopter does kp6 use the Perl stack?
16:46 pmurias yes
16:46 ruoso pmurias, wo what's the difference in the approach?
16:46 TimToady but Perl is mostly stackless, except where it isn't
16:46 pmurias between sprixel and mildew-js?
16:46 ruoso pmurias, yes
16:47 pmurias sprixel walks the VAST
16:48 diakopter yah, but stack frames take up space and time to traverse them the deeper they get
16:48 pmurias while mildew-js is exactly like yeast but compiles to js instead of C
16:48 ruoso ah... right...
16:48 ruoso but they're both creating a VM on top of V8
16:48 diakopter right.
16:48 diakopter and yet V8 is only sort of a VM.  it's not an interpreter
16:48 diakopter it has managed objects/GC, but it emits all JS code to machine code
16:48 ruoso VM is actually a very imprecise definition
16:49 TimToady it's just like a machine, but not really
16:49 diakopter also, it has an extremely-optimizing-compiler for JS regular expressions
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16:51 diakopter anyway, not using the host language stack (aka "stackless") is quite a big difference between kp6 and sprixel/mildew-js
16:52 diakopter (unless kp6 was creating 0 lexicals in every frame and not passing any arguments to Perl subs)_
16:55 ruoso the difference is that in order to implement the stackless you have at least two or three native calls for each call you're doing
16:56 diakopter of course.  but one is hard-pressed to distinguish very many orders of magnitude between V8's JS native calls and C native calls.
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16:59 diakopter or similarly, how many C native calls does a smop p6 method call consume?
16:59 [particle] maybe it's better called a "nigh machine"
17:00 [particle] er, "nigh virtual machine"
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17:00 ruoso diakopter, a lot
17:02 pmichaud 16:12 <ruoso> in fact, that's the reason why I believe Perl 6 bootstrap is not just a "cool" thing to do, but it's actually necessary...
17:02 pmichaud ...does this imply that only Perl 6 can run Perl 6 ?
17:02 pmichaud also
17:02 pmichaud 16:42 <TimToady> I'm not too worried about the price until after we're completely bootstrapped
17:02 pmichaud it was never clear to me that bootstrapping was a necessary part of the process.
17:03 moritz_ I think a partial bootstrap is necessary
17:03 moritz_ like having a grammar in Perl 6
17:03 pmichaud partial, sure
17:03 ruoso at least for the grammar engine and for the built-in types
17:03 pmichaud I have no problem with that.  Rakudo has been aiming in that direction from day one... it even out-did Pugs in that respect
17:04 pmichaud but this tells me the decision I made over the weekend is likely the correct one (more)
17:04 pmichaud all of the new grammar engine stuff is being written in NQP
17:05 pmichaud which means it'll bootstrap quite nicely :)
17:05 pmichaud it's also being built outside of the parrot repo
17:06 pmichaud because I'd like it to not be tied too closely to Parrot
17:07 moritz_ so you'll redo the stuff that you already did in PIR?
17:07 moritz_ in the pct-rx brnach?
17:07 pmichaud it's now in my nqp-rx repo on github
17:07 moritz_ oh wow
17:08 pmichaud there's still some PIR there, but eventually the source will be all NQP
17:08 pmichaud except for perhaps the part that compiles down to PIR
17:08 pmichaud (I don't mind if the part that compiles to PIR is written in PIR :)
17:08 moritz_ afk
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17:19 * jnthn glances at pmichaud's nqp-rx on github
17:19 pmichaud basically it'll end up being a re-implementation of nqp
17:19 pmichaud that includes compiling regexes
17:19 jnthn pmichaud: OK, cool.
17:19 jnthn pmichaud: And context vars? :-)
17:19 pmichaud native compilation, not using PGE
17:19 pmichaud yes, and context vars
17:19 jnthn pmichaud: Cool.
17:19 jnthn pmichaud: I've started refactoring signature stuff a little today.
17:19 pmichaud good deal
17:19 diakopter pmichaud:  sounds like a VM :)
17:19 jnthn The first baby step was to create a Perl6::Compiler::Signature class that we instantiate and deal with from actions.pm
17:20 jnthn Rather than doing the AST generation in actions.pm itself.
17:20 pmichaud diakopter: it's more like a miniperl6 or kindaperl6, I think
17:20 diakopter ok
17:20 pmichaud but it'll have a working grammar engine inside
17:20 jnthn Thus I can switch to a new signature representation more easily, but also we collect all the info together.
17:20 pmichaud jnthn: sounds like a win
17:21 jnthn pmichaud: OK, glad you like the idea. :-)
17:21 pmichaud in many ways that's what STD.pm is also doing -- it creates its own signature objects during parsing
17:22 jnthn pmichaud: Aye, and I expect the two will converge more over time.
17:22 jnthn Getting us having a parse-time signature object at all is, I think, a good first step.
17:22 jnthn I'm getting clsoe.
17:22 jnthn Apart from, I get a GC segfault right now. :-/
17:22 pmichaud sounds good to me, except for the gc segfault :)
17:22 pmichaud the most interesting piece of nqp-rx right now is src/Regex/OPP.pm
17:23 pmichaud which is a miniature operator precedence parser modeled after STD.pm's
17:23 jnthn I just saw the .pm in there and was liike "ooh"
17:23 jnthn But it hurt my head a little ;-)
17:23 pmichaud it hurts less than STD.pm's opp :)
17:23 jnthn hehe
17:23 jnthn Does it compile and work already?
17:23 pmichaud the mini opp doesn't worry about adverbs, for example.  It's intended to handle more traditional operator precedence parsing
17:24 pmichaud not yet
17:24 pmichaud I'm having to work out some bootstrapping issues to get all of the pieces to work
17:24 jnthn How are OPP.pir and OPP.pm related?
17:24 pmichaud OPP.pir is the hand-translation of OPP.pm
17:24 jnthn ah, bootstrapping?
17:24 pmichaud yeah.
17:25 pmichaud also, there are some operations that OPP.pm wants that aren't really supported in NQP yet.  I'm having to think about those a bit.
17:25 pmichaud for example, binding an object's attribute
17:26 jnthn signature.pm has some inline PIR in hope of something similar in NQP in the future. :-)
17:26 pmichaud good to know
17:26 pmichaud I'll take a look at it.  We'll figure something out.
17:27 jnthn I'm hoping to finish/commit this piece today.
17:29 jnthn After that, it'll be onto starting to stub in the new low level signature PMC.
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17:38 japhb moritz_, ping
17:38 japhb moritz_, http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/today is missing lines in the middle of my report (if just the end cut off, I'd think it was just lagged, but the EOR at the end is there).  What happened?
17:40 jnthn oh yeah, parrotsketch...
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17:46 japhb moritz_, nevermind, looks like a throttle that my client didn't recognize
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18:08 masak pmichaud: should Regex/OPP.pm really be Regex/OPP.pg, or is the intro comment in Regex/OPP.pir wrong?
18:08 pmichaud don't know yet.
18:08 pmichaud I need to re-read what the latest synopsis changes say about file suffixes.
18:09 pmichaud when all is said and done, it's likely to be .pm
18:09 masak ok.
18:09 pmichaud so I suspect the intro comment is wrong
18:09 pmichaud want a commit bit so you can fix it?  ;-)
18:09 pmichaud or we can add the project to hugme
18:10 masak I'd love one.
18:10 pmichaud how does one add projects to hugme?
18:10 masak (1) be moritz_ (2) ??? (3) project!
18:13 pmichaud masak:  you now have commit rights :)
18:13 pmichaud also add yourself to CREDITS, if appropriate :)
18:13 pmichaud oh wait, I didn't push that yet?
18:13 masak not appropriate yet, perhaps.
18:13 pmichaud pushed
18:15 masak what relation does pct-rx have to nqp-rx? why is one a Parrot branch and the other a github project?
18:16 pmichaud the parrot branch is now gone
18:16 pmichaud I've decided to develop this project external to parrot
18:18 pmichaud so it's just nqp-rx.
18:18 masak ah.
18:18 masak that's why I see so many similarities.
18:18 pmichaud nqp-rx is a (new) implementation of nqp that also can compile regexes
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18:18 pmichaud and it compiles regexes without PGE -- i.e., it's independent of the old PGE system entirely
18:18 pmichaud (at least it will be, once we're bootstrapped)
18:18 masak oh, so the goal is to bootstrap? cool.
18:18 pmichaud yes
18:18 pmichaud but also to get the tools to be written in NQP
18:18 pmichaud _including_ the regex engine
18:19 masak it sounds very sane, I think.
18:19 pmichaud nqp-rx is also intended to be the primary (and full) interface to the parrot compiler toolkit
18:19 pmichaud i.e., one can write a compiler using only nqp-rx, no other tools needed
18:20 pmichaud hopefully this will enable us to also target other backends :)
18:20 pmichaud or others can use nqp to bootstrap their own systems
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18:21 masak I pushed the one-char fix.
18:21 pmichaud thanks :-)
18:22 japhb pmichaud, how far is nqp-rx from being able to replace at least NQP-as-it-exists-now?
18:22 pmichaud japhb: at least a week away
18:22 japhb I'm wondering when I need to start testing Plumage on nqp-rx ...
18:22 pmichaud more likely "approximately a week away"
18:22 japhb Ah, that's actually sooner than I expected, cool!
18:22 pmichaud yes... NQP itself wasn't hard to implement the first time
18:22 pmichaud so I suspect it'll be even easier the second time around :)
18:22 japhb And then I get to start bugging you for all the features that are currently driving me nuts by not being in NQP.  :-)
18:22 pmichaud I think I did NQP before in just a few days
18:22 pmichaud no.
18:22 pmichaud then you get to start adding the features you want to nqp-rx
18:22 pmichaud :)
18:23 japhb aww, making me write my own dogfood.  :-)
18:26 masak pmichaud: I suppose this rewrite will give us tracing, so that we can do what Damian's Regexp::Grammars does. :)
18:26 pmichaud masak: yes, that's intended
18:26 masak \o/
18:26 pmichaud but I could use some specs on what the tracing should look like
18:26 masak http://gist.github.com/163370
18:26 masak I wrote that one during YAPC::EU, after seeing Damian's talk.
18:27 pmichaud niiiiiiice
18:27 masak :)
18:28 masak it's just a start, I suspect.
18:28 pmichaud but I like the approach very much
18:28 pmichaud it hadn't occurred to me to keep a separate tracing object
18:28 pmichaud in that sense it acts like action methods
18:28 pmichaud it's also easy to turn on/off
18:28 masak aye.
18:28 masak that's the idea.
18:29 pmichaud we'll start with that somehow
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18:42 pmichaud it's not a subclass.
18:42 pmichaud PGE/Regex.pir actually puts methods into PGE;Match
18:42 masak oh!
18:42 masak yes, it does.
18:42 masak now I see.
18:42 jrtayloriv joined #perl6
18:42 pmichaud that dates from the time when we didn't know the exact relationship between Match, Regex, and Grammar (and hadn't heard of Cursor yet)
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