Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-10-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:07 carlin WTF? http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c​4e6d0fa19bec03b7417b5ba743aefb18e6fcdad vs my patch: http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Publ​ic/Bug/Display.html?id=68402
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02:30 * diakopter hears a pin drop
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02:44 dalek book: c170399 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/multi-dispatch.pod:
02:44 dalek book: Try to rephrase the first constraint paragraph a tad.  Still needs work IMO.
02:44 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/c1​70399a12396cef61ec51c8b19e4e610915e9e1
02:44 dalek book: 9099f17 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/multi-dispatch.pod:
02:44 dalek book: Fix trailing whitespace.
02:44 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/90​99f1781afe00c97124316d6baa805c356e3585
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04:06 frew pmichaud: you could pronouce NQP: NQP rex
04:06 frew that's at least easy to say :-)
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04:28 dalek rakudo: 0e662a7 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
04:28 dalek rakudo: Revised spectest numbers.
04:28 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 453 files, 32568 (85.1% of 38284) pass, 104 fail
04:28 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
04:28 dalek rakudo: S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.rakudo aborted 5 test(s)
04:28 dalek rakudo: S03-junctions/autothreading.rakudo aborted 78 test(s)
04:28 dalek rakudo: S12-methods/parallel-dispatch.t aborted 21 test(s)
04:28 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​e662a7b88f8d06d1db197470ab3eba9c8735128
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04:37 eternaleye_ (epic backlogging) frettled: If nobody explained Orz over the past few days, it was/is one of the races in the game Star Control II, a.k.a. The Ur-Quan Masters (the latter is the open-sourced codebase of the 3DO version). Very fun game. The Orz were from an alternate spacetime 'below' ours (the Ariloulaleelay [LGMs] were from one 'above' us) whose language could barely be given even a general translation. Somehow, their
04:37 eternaleye_ statement managed to be simultaneously cute, amusing, and absolutely terrifying.
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: efe456a | pmichaud++ | src/ (4 files):
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: Some code for naive token prefixes for regexes.
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e​fe456ae5e840698d04e89ec627c374f1b54e8dd
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06:03 Su-Shee good morning.
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06:23 sjohnson Su-Shee: hi
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: d025580 | pmichaud++ |  (4 files):
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: Some initial work on leading token prefixes in regexes.
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/d​025580d56278a6bcc67093413cad01acd405f48
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: c206489 | pmichaud++ | src/ (4 files):
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: Updated version with simple protoregex token pruning.
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/c​206489e3b9e2d5b38057820310fdc05f182e991
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: 29e11dd | pmichaud++ | src/ (2 files):
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: Clean up some debugging messages a bit.
06:23 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/2​9e11dd251d4155a42a8d13994003eeaf5856212
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06:38 frettled eternaleye: Heh, yep, that was epic backlogging :)  I don't even recall the occasion!
06:39 dalek rakudo: dda5262 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
06:39 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 453 files, 32614 (85.1% of 38326) pass, 83 fail
06:39 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
06:39 dalek rakudo: S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.rakudo aborted 5 test(s)
06:39 dalek rakudo: S03-junctions/autothreading.rakudo aborted 78 test(s)
06:39 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​da5262473b98be1a1c209768c917600ed84aa0f
06:40 dalek nqp-rx: 2577049 | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
06:40 dalek nqp-rx: [nqp]:  Add elsif/else clauses.
06:40 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/2​5770495d8531cd7a1ff8b3f14f0f0413ea25a3e
06:41 eternaleye frettled: It was when you suggested .nude as the listifier for Rats, and went /o\ - TimToady said that looked a little like an orz
06:41 eternaleye And it does look like the Orz spaceship
06:42 frettled eternaleye: ahaha!
06:42 frettled now I remember!
06:42 frettled |o| <o> |o|
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06:47 eternaleye Wait, what? So I'm reading XKDB (bash.org for #xkcd), and this one comes up: http://www.xkcdb.com/?2472 - all of the jokes ar UQM references. (The Thraddash have a ship called the Torch, the Arilou have the Skiff, the supox have the Blade, and another race is the Zoq-Fot-Pik)
06:47 eternaleye ETOOMANYCOINCIDENCES
06:47 moritz_ carlin: sorry, it seems I missed your earlier mkdir patch in RT
06:47 eternaleye *XKCDB
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07:53 mathw PCC branch landed in Parrot. That's going to be fun...
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08:24 moritz_ oh wow, the spectest graph starts to look... creative
08:34 mathw moritz_: it does?
08:45 dalek rakudo: edb2547 | jnthn++ | build/Makefile.in:
08:45 dalek rakudo: Correction to Makefile for Win32 (regression introduced by accident during resig2 merge).
08:45 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e​db2547fc190c0aa6ec509e4a6d7cd352fa50cdf
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08:56 moritz_ can somebody remind me what the difference between <?foo> and <.before <foo>> is?
08:56 moritz_ or if there is a difference at all
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09:03 colomon Ah, man, my prediction was off.  jnthn++'s merge only cleared up 4500 fails.
09:04 moritz_ well
09:05 moritz_ my predection was "a few hundred"
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09:06 JimmyZ rakudo:  <hello foo bar>>>.say;
09:06 p6eval rakudo 073d5e: OUTPUT«hello␤foo␤bar␤»
09:18 frettled «only» 4500, tsk tsk
09:19 dalek rakudo: 924e4f3 | moritz++ | README:
09:19 dalek rakudo: mention FreeBSD port in README
09:19 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9​24e4f33b3aabf17df4c1899961d850cf0a69b73
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09:57 dalek nqp-rx: 045112d | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: Rework building of initial tokens in terms of PAST.
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/0​45112d572f0faf11af8b629d0c775a8f35f85aa
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: 40d3046 | pmichaud++ | src/Regex/Cursor-protoregex-peek.pir:
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: Some infrastructure to allow protoregex peeks.
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/4​0d30464c7e1d13ed9f49e405c52ebcc6b74bc28
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: 503d396 | pmichaud++ | src/PAST/Regex.pir:
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: More peekability for enumcharclass nodes.
09:57 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/5​03d396dc54ab534a0211092215205c4dce5b278
10:03 carlin I've written a patch to move mkdir to the setting, it works on its own but if I do `$x = mkdir('foo')` or `say mkdir('foo')` etc. it causes a null PMC. How could I get around that? Putting a `return True` in it would work but that seems wrong.
10:06 carlin (it would throw an exception before it got to there if it wasn't supposed to return true)
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10:08 moritz_ carlin: if you return something from inline PIR you might have to box it
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10:11 carlin moritz_: How do you mean?
10:12 moritz_ %r = box $I0
10:22 carlin Hmm... maybe I've done it wrong
10:23 carlin This is what I've got: http://gist.github.com/215882
10:24 moritz_ the problem is that probably that $os.mkdir returns an int
10:24 moritz_ or os
10:24 moritz_ *or so
10:24 moritz_ but in Rakudo all return values must be PMCs
10:25 moritz_ so the solution is probably to make the call to mkdir in PIR too
10:26 carlin Oh okay. That shouldn't be too hard to do
10:26 moritz_ $P0 = new 'OS'
10:26 moritz_ $P1 = find_lex '$dirname'
10:26 moritz_ $S1 = $P1
10:27 moritz_ $P9 = $P0.'mkdir'($S1, ...)
10:27 moritz_ erm
10:27 moritz_ $I9 =  $P0.'mkdir'($S1, ...)
10:27 moritz_ %r = box $I9
10:27 moritz_ or something
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10:52 masak greetings.
10:52 moritz_ |o|
10:54 masak rakudo: class A { constant B = 5; has $!x = B }; A.new
10:54 p6eval rakudo 073d5e: TIMED_OUT
10:54 * masak glares at p6eval
10:55 masak anyway, that gives a Null PMC access error here. anyone else?
10:55 masak what about this one?
10:55 masak rakudo: class A { constant B = 5; has $!x = A::B }; A.new
10:55 p6eval rakudo 073d5e: TIMED_OUT
10:56 masak couldn't we just have p6eval print 'TIMED_OUT' without the delay? :(
10:56 moritz_ I can set the timeout to one second, if that pleases you more
10:57 masak it would make it seem more responsive.
10:59 pugs_svn r28878 | moritz++ | [evalbot] handle revision numbers in PARROT_REVISION which also contain a release version
11:00 pugs_svn r28879 | moritz++ | [evalbot] try to do it right this time, moritz--
11:03 carlin moritz_: that partially worked, but the return value just seems to be a random number
11:04 moritz_ src/runcore/main.c: In function ‘dynop_register’:
11:04 moritz_ src/runcore/main.c:775: error: ‘Parrot_DynOp_core_cgp_1_7_0’ undeclared (first use in this function)
11:04 moritz_ oh wow, the release version of parrot doesn't build on the server
11:05 masak that could explain it.
11:09 moritz_ ah, parallel build it is
11:09 moritz_ sequential one seems to work
11:09 moritz_ so back to the stone age
11:09 mathw Fedora 12 beta announcement includes:
11:09 mathw "Cool new stuff for developers beginning with Eclipse Galileo, which
11:09 mathw includes more plugins than ever before. Perl 6 is now included, along
11:09 mathw with PHP 5.3."
11:09 moritz_ YaY
11:11 masak brave new world.
11:12 mathw Actually Fedora 12 generally looks very cool
11:12 mathw I feel another distro change coming on
11:12 nbrown phenny: tell jnthn edb2547 fixed my make spectest issues, thanks jnthn!
11:12 phenny nbrown: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
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11:14 Su-Shee oh wow. :)
11:14 moritz_ rakudo: say '45'
11:14 p6eval rakudo 073d5e: OUTPUT«45␤»
11:14 moritz_ rakudo: class A { constant B = 5; has $!x = A::B }; A.new
11:14 p6eval rakudo 073d5e: TIMED_OUT
11:15 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><prefix>
11:15 p6eval rakudo 073d5e: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval//p1␤»
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11:15 moritz_ hrmpf
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11:24 moritz_ rakudo: class A { constant B = 5; has $!x = A::B }; A.new
11:24 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: TIMED_OUT
11:24 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><prefix>
11:25 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: OUTPUT«/home/p6eval//p2␤»
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12:02 masak do you guys remember my old article 'Rakudo: good, cool, awesome, bad, ugly, weird'? well, it turns out that only one thing remains among the things I wrote about in that article that needed to be fixed. http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/37303
12:03 masak to me, that's a pretty good indication of the progress we've had in Rakudo over the past year.
12:03 moritz_ so the only thing left is s///?
12:03 masak yes.
12:03 masak and that'll be fixed soon.
12:03 moritz_ rakudo: class A { constant B = 5; has $!x = A::B }; A.new # if it doesn't work now, I simply have no idea what's wrong, or what else to try
12:04 masak of all the 12 criticisms I could possibly conjure up in late August 2008, only one remains.
12:04 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: TIMED_OUT
12:04 masak unless you count the fact that I'm starting to hit stability limits in Rakudo/Parrot again, but I think those are new problems, not recurring ones.
12:04 moritz_ masak: agreed, on all points
12:05 masak moritz_: are you also hitting stability limits?
12:05 moritz_ masak: yes
12:05 masak interesting.
12:05 moritz_ simply by running 'make spectest'
12:05 masak oh, those.
12:05 moritz_ some of them segfaults now and then
12:07 masak to me, it seems fairly correlated with program length (in seconds).
12:08 masak also, memory consumption.
12:08 masak I can bring Parrot down with this Perl 6 program:
12:08 masak rakudo: my @a; for 1 .. 100_000 { @a.push(42) }
12:09 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: TIMED_OUT
12:09 masak here on my computer, I get src/gc/api.c:248: failed assertion 'PObj_is_PMC_TEST(obj)'
12:09 masak in fact, I'll go talk to the Parrot people about that one right now.
12:09 moritz_ bad timing.
12:10 moritz_ if they fix something, you still can't build rakudo on trunk
12:10 moritz_ because of the pcc merge
12:10 masak I'm in no hurry.
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12:19 shinobi-cl hi... does anyone knows any good examples for reading csv files in perl6?
12:20 masak examples, as in... modules for reading CSV?
12:21 shinobi-cl no, only a code like "while (<FILE<) { say $_.S/; } " etc...
12:22 masak you cannot read CSV files on a line-by-line basis. quoted values may span several lines.
12:22 moritz_ for $file-handle.lines -> $l { my @row = $l.split ','; # do something with @row }
12:22 shinobi-cl i found some on the net but they use =file syntax, which are deprecated i think
12:22 moritz_ it is
12:22 masak feel free to take a look at how http://github.com/masak/csv does it, though.
12:22 moritz_ rakudo: say ='foo'
12:22 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: OUTPUT«No applicable methods.␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 295)␤»
12:23 shinobi-cl aaahh ok that will do, thanks :)
12:23 masak :)
12:23 masak I've not announced that module, because bpetering++ promised to do something extremely cool with it first.
12:24 masak but in my not so humble opinion, the :output(MyType) setting on that module is already very cool.
12:25 shinobi-cl i just want to have a file with translated styrings, and some sort of i18n module..
12:25 masak translated styrings?
12:25 masak what's a styring, precious?
12:25 shinobi-cl sorry for any typos im using my left arm, right has a fracture :o
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12:25 shinobi-cl strings i meant
12:26 masak oh.
12:26 masak and sorry about the arm. :/
12:26 masak shinobi-cl: well, my point is that if you ever conceive of having newlines in your comma-separated values, you shouldn't be reading the file line-by-line.
12:27 masak instead, you should be using a well-written module with many tests, like mine. :)
12:27 shinobi-cl oh thanks, at least i have som days out of work..
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: 0abc653 | pmichaud++ |  (5 files):
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: Convert token peeks to use separate *__PEEK methods.
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/0​abc653d42b221373435c62231dbca4b9b362451
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: 9197d53 | pmichaud++ | src/ (5 files):
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: Switch to using !PREFIX__* instead of *__PEEK.
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/9​197d535c5353bc0d3297eaa0337b52d9d6cc281
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: c82db7d | pmichaud++ |  (5 files):
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: Initial code for subrule peeking.
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/c​82db7d4facddcfff6ae0b39e8c1efba2465238d
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: 4388311 | pmichaud++ | src/Regex/Cursor-protoregex-peek.pir:
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: Handle the case where !PREFIX_* returns a nested array.
12:27 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/4​388311d4ac688031ae42e18d9636638ffa73619
12:27 shinobi-cl oh i've did something like that in perl5 once
12:28 shinobi-cl but im guess im gonna steal your module for now :)
12:28 masak let me know how it goes.
12:29 shinobi-cl sure, the i18n part is just a small module... are you familiar with the term Team Syntegration?
12:31 shinobi-cl is a very cool idea for organizing big meetings, i want to see i i can represent it and automate the administrative parts of the Team Syntegration protocol using roles and classes
12:31 shinobi-cl ok got to go, have to see a doctor for that arm...
12:32 shinobi-cl bye and thanks masak!
12:32 masak o/
12:32 shinobi-cl left #perl6
12:32 takadonet masak always giving away code...
12:32 masak that's how the Noosphere works.
12:33 moritz_ s/giving away/sharing/
12:33 takadonet thanks moritz_ :)
12:34 moritz_ the important thing about code is that you can give away a copy with virtually no cost on your own
12:34 masak same as all digital creations.
12:34 moritz_ many people haven't understood that yet, and are therefore very sceptical about open source
12:36 takadonet don't get me wrong, I love open source. That is one of the main reason I love working in a scientific field. Everything I produce is open source
12:36 Su-Shee moritz_: I think, OSS has a pretty good reputation and standing here..
12:37 moritz_ takadonet: I didn't mean to imply that you were one of those - just that comment triggered something that has bothered me for long
12:37 moritz_ Su-Shee: aye :-)
12:40 mathw the only place I've really been where open source is distrusted is where I am now...
12:40 Su-Shee our customers are very old business, not very internet-affine. they really have problem to plainly _believe_ that they don't have to buy a postgres (or perl) licence.
12:41 mathw Ours is more like... everything we bring in from outside is a risk, and they're always looking at minimising security and stability risks
12:41 mathw and they don't see open source being very good at it, they like to be able to buy incredibly expensive commercial support
12:41 mathw sometimes I just think that they don't trust it because it's too cheap
12:42 moritz_ well
12:42 moritz_ we should start a company that sells open source software to incredibly high prices
12:43 Su-Shee "get rich fast with rakudo"? :)
12:43 moritz_ not just with rakudo
12:44 moritz_ suppose some desparate sould like mathw wanted to use postgres for his $work
12:44 moritz_ so he contacts us
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12:44 moritz_ and we create a commercial postgres version
12:44 mathw and you sell it to my employer for £100,000
12:44 moritz_ right
12:44 mathw see that would make them feel comfortable
12:44 moritz_ we get rich, and you get postgres
12:44 mathw because they're already paying vast sums of money to companies like Sun and Oracle
12:45 mathw In return, we get the kind of attention anybody with an intelligent question can get in here
12:45 mathw Or on GTK's bugzilla
12:45 mathw or...
12:46 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
12:47 moritz_ aye
12:47 moritz_ and we could also donate some of that money back
12:48 * moritz_ likes the idea, but doesn't think it's very feasible
12:48 mathw no probably not
12:48 mathw and you'd have to worry about taxes and things
12:50 masak have you people seen Mythryl? seems like a cute language, with many commonalities with Perl 6. http://mythryl.org/index.html
12:51 moritz_ I already like the name :-)
12:51 mathw except that nobody you tell about it will be able to spell it
12:51 mathw didn't tolkein spell mythryl with i in it?
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12:53 moritz_ yes
12:54 PerlJam joined #perl6
12:54 PerlJam guten Tag meine Freunde
12:54 masak and he usually spelled "Tolkien" with the i before the e. :P
12:54 mathw masak: I always get that wrong
12:54 Su-Shee PerlJam: ui :)
12:55 mathw Guten Tag, Herr PerlJam.
12:55 masak Bonan tagon, sinjoro PerlJam.
12:57 mathw Aye up, ducky
12:57 mathw (see I do speak more than two languages... I know some Midlands :) )
12:58 PerlJam I speak many languages, but I only know what I'm saying in english and maybe a little spanish  ;)
12:58 Su-Shee PerlJam: well you didn't insult us germans accidently, no worries. :)
13:00 PerlJam Su-Shee: that's the extent of the german I picked up from Diary of Anne Frank when I was in 8th grade or so.
13:00 PerlJam that and "mach schnell!"
13:02 Su-Shee That's interesting as anne frank's is orginally written in dutch...
13:02 Su-Shee "diary"
13:03 PerlJam But the germans who were oppressing her didn't speak dutch  :)
13:05 Su-Shee she was german, but lived hidden in amsterdam. I think, her father worked for some dutch company..
13:08 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
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13:25 * mathw finds the Mythryl quickstart vaguely patronising
13:33 * Su-Shee sticks with Perl 6. ;)
13:33 Su-Shee stays?
13:33 c9s joined #perl6
13:34 masak both 'sticks' and 'stays' work, methinks.
13:34 masak but 'stays' sounds slightly more excluding than 'sticks'.
13:34 Su-Shee it has a taste of "got stuck with" though :)
13:35 masak not really.
13:35 masak not when it's in the active voice.
13:35 mathw Having read a bit past the big overview
13:35 mathw I think Perl 6 is more consistent
13:40 masak how so?
13:41 mathw Just a general sort of impression
13:42 mathw Also, we don't trumpet every slightly unusual language feature as a major new thing you'll be so excited about
13:42 colomon (think I'd argue that "sticks" is slightly more idiomatic English, though perhaps that's American English...)
13:42 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
13:42 mathw colomon: it works in British as well, the meanings are slightly different
13:45 PerlJam Su-Shee: perl is glue and glue sticks
13:45 __ash__ joined #perl6
13:45 * mathw is thoroughly stuck
13:46 PerlJam Am I the only one who finds http://www.pragprog.com/titles/snfo​cus/pomodoro-technique-illustrated just a little bit ridiculous?
13:50 Su-Shee I find the pomodoro-technique a total rip-off.
13:52 jnthn oh lol I'm in Italy
13:52 phenny jnthn: 11:12Z <nbrown> tell jnthn edb2547 fixed my make spectest issues, thanks jnthn!
13:53 jnthn nbrown: I kinda hoped it would. :-)
13:54 jnthn It's relese day, yes? :-)
13:54 PerlJam yes
13:55 jnthn \o/
13:55 masak jnthn: I did found a regression caused by your merge yesterday.
13:55 masak jnthn: not too serious, though.
13:55 jnthn masak: I'm hardly surprised.
13:55 jnthn masak: I'm surprised it took you this long.
13:55 masak heh :)
13:55 jnthn Given what it was I ripped out and replaced. :)
13:56 jnthn What was it that you found?
13:56 masak http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Tic​ket/Display.html?id=69967
13:56 jnthn oh heh
13:56 masak I discovered it when I recompiled some, uh, not-yet-released Perl 6 code.
13:56 jnthn And that one is probably nothing to do with the signature binder and everything to do with the changes to package blocked.
13:57 jnthn *blocks
13:57 masak oh, aha.
13:57 masak you did that recently too?
13:57 jnthn (e.g. the ones that fixed lexicals visible outside of classes)
13:57 jnthn I did it during resig2 because it was blocking me fixing a test.
13:57 masak :)
13:57 masak then it's not wrong to say that 'the merge' caused it.
13:57 jnthn We were getting away with some stuff (sort of...ish) that we shouldn't have been before.
13:57 jnthn No, it's very likely.
13:58 masak once again, the cheese catches a bug! \o/
13:58 jnthn Yes. And a missing spectest too.
13:59 jnthn oh heh
13:59 jnthn That one might be...fun...to fix.
13:59 jnthn Oh, or it may be easy. Hmm.
13:59 jnthn Either way, I doubt I can churn out an instant patch.
13:59 masak no worries.
14:00 masak it's workaroundable.
14:00 jnthn Aye.
14:00 jnthn Out of curiosity, does a lexical instead of a constant work?
14:00 jnthn How about an our-scoped variable?
14:00 * masak tries
14:00 jnthn rakudo: class A { constant B = 5; has $!x = B }; A.new
14:00 jnthn rakudo: class A { my B = 5; has $!x = B }; A.new
14:01 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: TIMED_OUT
14:01 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 2, near "B = 5; has"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
14:01 jnthn oh dub
14:01 jnthn rakudo: class A { my $B = 5; has $!x = $B }; A.new
14:01 masak jnthn: 'my' doesn't, 'our' works.
14:01 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: TIMED_OUT
14:01 masak 'my' produces the same error as 'constant'. I'll add that to the ticket.
14:01 jnthn masak: OK. And since constants are package scoped, that probably gives us a pointer.
14:01 jnthn oh, my doesn't work?
14:01 masak nod.
14:01 jnthn Hmm
14:02 jnthn oh wait
14:02 jnthn I think constants became our scoped in the spec *after* I implemented them. :-/
14:02 jnthn So they're probably still lexical.
14:02 masak aye.
14:02 masak that is consistent with the data.
14:02 jnthn *nod*
14:03 jnthn OK, so it looks like something to do with lexicals and attr initializers.
14:04 jnthn Maybe we attach the initializer blocks to the wrong lexical scope.
14:04 masak pleased to be of destructive service.
14:04 eiro hello
14:04 masak bonjour, eiro.
14:05 eiro i didn't work on perl6 tonight: was in familly. but i thought about it
14:05 xinming_ joined #perl6
14:05 eiro bonjour masak. comment vas-tu aujourd'hui ?
14:05 masak tres biel, merci. :)
14:05 masak s/biel/bien/
14:05 eiro s/l/n
14:05 eiro haha :)
14:05 eiro bravo
14:05 moritz_ "ca va" :-)
14:05 moritz_ easier to type :-)
14:06 masak eiro: et toi?
14:06 eiro moritz_, you're right!
14:06 moritz_ though I do think it lacks a cedilla
14:06 masak it does.
14:06 moritz_ ça va?
14:06 masak 'c' before 'a' is pronounced as a 'k'.
14:06 eiro masak, je suis de charmante tres bonne humeur mais j'ai beaucoup de travail
14:06 masak eiro: moi aussi.
14:06 eiro ça va
14:06 __ash__ masak: i found an interesting issue with proto. If the library your trying to install via proto isn't in the correct directory layout it kinda messes up
14:07 * eiro is impressed by the masak's french skills
14:07 masak __ash__: oh?
14:07 masak eiro: seven years left some kind of mark, it seems. :P
14:07 eiro i want to learn german: my 6 years old daughter have a better level than mine
14:07 jnthn Five years left little mark on me.
14:08 eiro masak, sure :)
14:08 masak but most of the machinery in my brain that handles French has been co-opted by the machinery that handles Esperanto... :/
14:08 masak nuntempe kiam mi serĉas francan vorton, mi ofte trovas Esperantan...
14:08 am0c joined #perl6
14:08 eiro well ... i lived 2 years on marocco but my arab is awfull :(
14:09 masak s/arab/arabic/
14:09 masak :)
14:09 eiro thanks
14:09 __ash__ masak: i switched to the installed-module branch, and then copied the projects.list from the master to that branch and tried installing Link-C and thats how i noticed it, Link-C isn't in the right directory layout, its not in a lib folder, and proto assumes that everything in the repo that is a library is in a lib folder, just thought i'd let you know
14:09 eiro s/ma/mo
14:09 masak __ash__: oh, the installed-module branch. well, then...
14:10 masak __ash__: so, let me see if I get this right: something in the installed-module branch assumes that a downloaded project has the .pm files in a lib/ folder?
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14:11 masak that sounds simultaneously very reasonable and a tad brittle. I'll make sure to discuss it with mberends++.
14:12 eiro moritz_, i thought about what you told to me about iso2709 and i have a reason to not use the "fixed width" informations inside the file: some of those infos are sometimes fucked (after a reencoding for exemple)
14:12 jnthn coffee break \o/
14:12 __ash__ yeah, it doesn't actually check if there is a file, one sec i'll show you what i mean
14:12 eiro so i only want to rely on separators
14:13 eiro in this case, a grammar can be a good solution, no ?
14:13 moritz_ probably, yes
14:13 eiro i can show you the perl5 code i want to convert (137 lines)
14:14 eiro jnthn, 5 years in france ? or did you mean hungary (i think you live there by now)
14:15 masak __ash__: I think you just became our first tester of the installed-modules branch. :)
14:16 __ash___ joined #perl6
14:16 __ash___ masak: http://github.com/masak/proto/blob/in​stalled-modules/lib/Installer.pm#L414 right there, it blindly copies the file from the repo into the perl6 lib, its not actually validating that the @files has any valid files in it, if the repo its pulling from has no lib folder you get an error saying cp is wrong (because it is)
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14:17 masak __ash___: hm... if @files is empty, the loop shouldn't run at all.
14:18 masak this is the first time I'm looking at that code, by the way. I probably should have long ago, but I've been too distracted with other things.
14:18 __ash___ it's running for me, then it stops because cp gives an error
14:19 moritz_ patch it! patch it!
14:19 moritz_ __ash___: do you already have commit access to proto?
14:19 moritz_ if not, what's your github ID?
14:19 masak I'm still trying to understand exactly how the wrench stops the machinery in this case.
14:19 __ash___ ashgti
14:20 moritz_ hugme: add ashgti to proto
14:20 * hugme hugs ashgti. Welcome to proto!
14:20 masak __ash___: is the problem that $file points to a non-existent file, or that the lib/ dir doesn't exist?
14:21 __ash___ masak: when irun it, here's the result: Installing link-c...usage: cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-apvX] source_file target_file
14:21 __ash___ cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-apvX] source_file ... target_directory
14:21 __ash___ installed
14:22 __ash___ so, its doing something, but its not doing the right something
14:22 masak nod.
14:22 masak do you think you could add a 'say $command' after the assignment on line 426?
14:23 __ash___ sure
14:24 masak great.
14:24 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:24 PerlJam good morning Pm
14:24 pmichaud PerlJam: need anything from me for today's release?
14:25 PerlJam dunno :)
14:25 PerlJam I update and am running the spec tests now via test_summary.pl
14:26 PerlJam s/update/updated/
14:26 pmichaud wfm
14:26 __ash___ masak: cp /Users/john/Projects/proto/cache/link-c/lib/find: : No such file or directory
14:26 __ash___ 2 of those
14:26 __ash___ are the $commands
14:27 PerlJam I'm also editing the release announcement, which I'll post here in a little while for commentary.
14:29 __ash___ so, maybe this problem is coming from how the files are found
14:29 masak mornin', pmichaud.
14:29 masak __ash___: quite possibly.
14:30 __ash___ masak: the filename is find: : No such file or directory, so yeah, i am gonna look at how you find the files
14:31 masak it's in Ecosystem.pm
14:31 masak line 83.
14:31 masak there's your assumption right there. it presupposes a lib/ dir.
14:31 masak __ash___++
14:32 masak the obvious patch would be to return an empty list if there is no such dir.
14:32 __ash__ guess just right before that we just need to check for the lib dir
14:32 __ash__ yeah
14:32 masak __ash__: will you write that patch, or shall I?
14:33 __ash__ i don't know much of the io things, i wouldn't know how to check for the directory
14:33 __ash__ i can look it up
14:33 masak excellent.
14:33 masak ISTR $file ~~ :d is implemented in Rakudo.
14:33 masak that should be enough.
14:34 __ash__ kk
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14:40 __ash__ should i return an empty array, or should i raise an error of sorts?
14:40 moritz_ maybe warn, and return an empty array?
14:41 __ash__ k, that sounds good
14:41 PerlJam okay, so test_summary.pl came back with http://gist.github.com/215969.  what do those failures mean for me exctly?
14:42 masak warning and returning an empty array sounds about right.
14:43 moritz_ PerlJam: for the release you should regress on these tests
14:43 moritz_ either by fudging them, or by commenting them out from t/spectest.data
14:43 moritz_ PerlJam: in either case you should also open a ticket for that
14:43 pmichaud ...215969 didn't appear for me
14:44 pmichaud oh, wait, stupid trailing dot
14:44 PerlJam pmichaud: did you copy the trailing . ? )
14:44 PerlJam :) even
14:44 pmichaud comment those test files out of spectest.data for the release
14:44 pmichaud you can uncomment them again after the release
14:44 pmichaud i.e., what moritz++ said.
14:45 PerlJam okie
14:45 pmichaud I'd comment them out of spectest data rather than fudge.
14:45 PerlJam what's the difference?
14:45 moritz_ comment out = operation in the rakudo repo
14:46 pmichaud we know/suspect that those tests ought to be passing, we've regressed
14:46 pmichaud if we fudge them, we somewhat lose the "regression" bit
14:46 PerlJam gotcha
14:46 pmichaud if we keep them as commented entries in spectest.data, then we know that we were passing them at one time but have gone backwards
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15:01 moritz_ I'd also put them back in right after the release
15:03 rdice joined #perl6
15:11 PerlJam Anyone have anything to add to http://gist.github.com/215981  ?
15:12 pmichaud nothing to add here.
15:12 __ash__ if i am in a tracking branch and i push do i need to specify the remote branch?
15:12 __ash__ in git
15:14 takadonet wait a min.... we are passing 85% of the spec!?!?!
15:14 PerlJam __ash__: the default is to push to "matching" remote branches, but you can change that in your config or by specifying a particular branch to push to
15:15 pmichaud yes
15:15 pmichaud but the spec has increased size significantly
15:15 PerlJam takadonet: yeah, that number is perhaps misleading.  The total number of tests went up because a bunch of passing tests got added
15:16 pmichaud so we're still failing about as many tests as before
15:16 takadonet PerlJam: I know but still little shocking
15:17 masak PerlJam: looks good to me.
15:17 takadonet wonder how many test are we going to when we release rakudo star
15:17 * pmichaud guesses *
15:17 takadonet come on 100k!
15:18 PerlJam takadonet: well, I could add bunches and bunches of passing tests so that  our percentage of spectests asymptotically approaches 100% if you want to be more shocked  ;->
15:18 PerlJam percentage of *passing* spectests
15:20 __ash__ masak: i have a git format patch if you want it for proto
15:21 masak __ash__: you're free to commit it directly if you want.
15:21 masak trust the anarchy. :)
15:21 lumi joined #perl6
15:22 __ash__ k, um... well, i am kinda git-retarded, when i do git push it says everything is up to date
15:23 moritz_ rakudo: sub a(::Int $x) { say $x }; a(5)
15:24 p6eval rakudo 924e4f: OUTPUT«5␤»
15:24 __ash__ anyone know what: error: src refspec installed-modules does not match any. mean?
15:24 __ash__ s/mean/means/
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15:25 PerlJam __ash__: you used the text "installed-modules" where you really wanted a refspec
15:26 __ash__ should that be like origin/installed-modules ?
15:26 dalek rakudo: 37956bf | duff++ |  (3 files):
15:26 dalek rakudo: Updates in preparation for release
15:26 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​7956bfca44c87cf966b8720ddb35730c3f25234
15:26 PerlJam __ash__: perhaps.  Show the command line.
15:27 __ash__ git push origin installed-modules
15:28 moritz_ I think needs to be the other way round
15:28 moritz_ git push installed-modules origin
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15:30 PerlJam __ash__: "git push origin" should probably work if you're on the installed-modules branch  (you may need to do "git config push.default current" so that git doesn't complain much)
15:31 PerlJam __ash__: or, "git push origin refs/heads/installed_modules" to be long-hand about it.  (I think)
15:31 pugs_svn r28880 | lwall++ | [S02] refine global linkage policies
15:32 __ash__ masak: i just made a new branch accidently, gonna delete that on github
15:32 masak oki.
15:34 __ash__ k, got it, masak, its pushed
15:34 masak thanks. will review.
15:35 masak looks good. __ash__++
15:36 masak __ash__: hm, wait. what's that you're testing in the second if statement you added?
15:36 masak that the source file exists and is a file, and that the target file... exists and is a file?
15:36 masak that doesn't feel quite right. :/
15:37 __ash__ hmm, yeah, your right, i did mess that up, i should only be checking the source, not the dest
15:37 __ash__ :-(
15:37 masak I think so.
15:38 masak even though the comment above that talks about 'non-clobbering'.
15:38 masak the question what should happen if there's a file in the target spot already is an interesting one.
15:39 masak if it belongs to the project we're trying to install, then we should probably overwrite it without a warning.
15:39 masak if it belongs to another project, we should probably stop dead in our tracks...
15:39 masak (because destroying other installed projects without asking is evil)
15:39 __ash__ then you'd need to keep track of which projects own which files
15:39 pmichaud numeric advantage of using token prefixes in protoregexes to prune the tree:
15:40 masak __ash__: aye.
15:40 pmichaud for a simple statement like  "if 3 { say(4) }"   (in NQP)
15:40 __ash__ how does cpan handle that?
15:40 PerlJam github requires flash for uploads?
15:40 pmichaud without pruning, we call 416 subrules
15:40 pmichaud with pruning, we call 270
15:40 moritz_ woah
15:40 pmichaud i.e., we avoid calling 146 subrules
15:40 masak __ash__: it puts modules in their own dirs.
15:40 pmichaud (that will fail anyway)
15:40 masak pmichaud++
15:41 pmichaud note that this number gets much bigger as we add more subrules... this is using nqp-rx's extremely limited set at the moment.
15:41 __ash__ masak: should you do that with proto?
15:42 masak __ash__: no, because that'd destroy the advantage of putting them all in one ~/.perl6/lib dir.
15:42 masak __ash__: and categorizing modules according to only their names won't work as a long-term strategy in Perl 6 anyway.
15:42 masak not that proto was ever long-term...
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15:43 pmichaud oh wait, I misquoted the numbers above
15:43 __ash__ masak: you could have proto manage them, so if you wanted a  lib from proto you might do something like use Proto; Proto::load('Stuff');
15:43 pmichaud it's more like 200 versus 130
15:43 pmichaud (each I was counting call+exit)
15:43 moritz_ still rather impressive
15:44 moritz_ rakudo: say 70/200
15:44 p6eval rakudo 37956b: OUTPUT«0.35␤»
15:44 moritz_ ok, I could have done that in my head ;-)
15:44 TimToady rakudo: say 0.35.WHAT
15:44 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/216025   # trace when pruning disabled
15:44 p6eval rakudo 37956b: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
15:44 TimToady I thing maybe that should say Rat
15:45 pmichaud yes, we haven't done that part yet.
15:45 masak __ash__: yes, but I don't want that. I want proto to go away, not to leave marks in people's code.
15:45 kent\n joined #perl6
15:45 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/216026  # trace when pruning enabled
15:46 __ash__ masak: kk, well, does proto have a list of files that projects own currently? I can add one if not and fix my error
15:46 pmichaud note that PROTO prefix is able to fail immediately without having to call any of its subrules :)
15:46 moritz_ we should only enable that (0.35 being a Rat) once we have bigints in Rakudo
15:46 masak __ash__: please sync that with mberends++, he's in charge of that branch.
15:46 masak __ash__: in the meantime, do have a look at the TODO list at the end of the 'proto' script.
15:47 __ash__ k
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: 076c241 | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: Refactor protoregex token list generation a bit, add some dump methods to
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: inspect tables.
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/0​76c24197a239490a4088666ff16adc223a4be93
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: adf59e2 | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: More refactors, add in ability to build peek tokens from subrules.
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/a​df59e2ca391da3e8f6c04c4032c92f31ef494f2
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: 8ffa9b0 | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: Fix secondary sorting of protoregex candidates.
15:52 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/8​ffa9b091facec79632b3dde1115e83d84a9532a
15:53 masak yay, evening reading! \o/
15:53 masak I'm way behind on my nqp-rx commit reading.
15:55 pugs_svn r28881 | lwall++ | [S02] document desire to have decimal literals biased toward Rat storage
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16:01 __ash__ wow, so 3.14 should be rational, and 3.14e0 will be a float, how is rational performance wise? that seems like it could be scary if you don't realize that
16:02 TimToady if you want speed, you'll be declaring 'num' anyway
16:02 TimToady so we bias towards exact instead
16:03 TimToady and the Rat literal can always cache its Num conversion
16:04 __ash__ makes sense
16:04 TimToady it's also possible that Rat will notice when all its fractions are base 10, and optimize for that
16:05 PerlJam http://rakudo.org/node/57
16:05 TimToady anyway, that's my rationale
16:05 masak :P
16:05 masak Guido has a few negative things to say about exact numbers: http://python-history.blogspot.com/2009/02/​early-language-design-and-development.html
16:06 masak (paragraph starting with 'Numbers are one of the places where I strayed most from ABC.')
16:06 rfordinal left #perl6
16:07 TimToady writing his memoirs already, is he?  :)
16:07 masak seems so.
16:07 TimToady good :)
16:08 masak anyway, I think he brings up a valid point: that Rats might tend to get very large numerators/denominators if they're used in repeated calculations.
16:08 moritz_ we have this problem in rakudo already.
16:08 masak yes, we do.
16:09 moritz_ maybe we should have a PseudoRat
16:09 masak except that Rakudo halts instead of getting slower and slower. :P
16:09 moritz_ that stays exact as long as possible without upgrading the integers
16:09 moritz_ and then auto-decrades to Num
16:10 masak in either case, it seems like a situation where it might be outright dangerous not to learn from the lessons of others.
16:11 __ash__ i know in python, you can specify a precision for your floats and if you set it high enough it doesn't use double's or floats to represent the number anymore, at that point it converts them to an arbitrary precision representation
16:13 masak swimming &
16:14 __ash__ are rational's in rakudo handled by parrot or by a different arbitrary precision library? or something else?
16:14 moritz_ just as two ints
16:14 moritz_ src/setting/Rat.pm
16:17 __ash__ http://code.google.com/p/decnum-dynpmcs/ made a library for parrot that does big decimal arithmetic, might be useful to make sure rational's don't get to slow, possibly
16:21 pugs_svn r28882 | lwall++ | [S02] tweak Rat to max out at rat64 by default
16:22 moritz_ PerlJam++ # rakudo release
16:22 dalek rakudo: 281e3b2 | duff++ | t/spectest.data:
16:22 dalek rakudo: Uncomment regressed spectests
16:22 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​81e3b29259d74e10d3ecc922157f06f5bfd60a4
16:26 TimToady hmm, I wonder if rat64 is really big enough for an Instant...
16:27 TimToady could cap it out at rat128 by default, I suppose
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16:28 pmurias hi
16:30 TimToady actually, rat64 would be fine until we start measuring seconds down to 2 ** -60 or so
16:30 TimToady and rat64 is probably a performance sweet spot for the near future
16:31 TimToady masak++, moritz++, guido++  :)
16:32 TimToady now if I could only find a performance sweet spot for my backlogging...I'm three days behind...
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16:45 PerlJam TSa's recent posts to p6l are interesting.
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17:32 japhb masak, speaking of proto going away ... I'm working on an importer for the proto projects into the Plumage metadata system.  It's going OK so far, but at the moment I'm blocked on the problem of what to do about each project's lib/Configure.pm not expecting installed parrot and rakudo, but looking for build directories instead (and in particular locations, no less).  What is your plan for the migration to installed parrot/rakudo?
17:35 pugs_svn r28883 | moritz++ | [S02] use old school math, Eirik++
17:37 moritz_ japhb: mberends did much of the proto branch that deals with installing modules...
17:38 moritz_ japhb: and he left a large TODO list in http://github.com/masak/proto​/blob/installed-modules/proto - maybe that's of interest to you
17:39 rdice joined #perl6
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17:42 japhb moritz_, checking, thank you
17:46 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
17:46 japhb Holy schnauzer noses, the difference between the installed-modules branch and master is vast.
17:48 japhb When is mberends normally about?
17:50 moritz_ irregularly between 0800 and 2200 UTC
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18:03 dalek book: dfc24bd | moritz++ |  (2 files):
18:03 dalek book: simplistic Makefile which builds the book in build/book.pdf
18:03 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/df​c24bdb7207c62211ebd0216a5f97eaf83d493a
18:03 dalek book: c10a89c | moritz++ |  (2 files):
18:03 dalek book: [docs] current status for release announce
18:03 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/c1​0a89ca65f7d88bb7ee64e9fc2c0e22adb6c810
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18:20 dalek book: 3f1f4a1 | moritz++ |  (2 files):
18:20 dalek book: [MMD] include the figure into the PDF
18:20 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/3f​1f4a15f591185e4eead94b3ad3e38c685d5a13
18:25 snearch joined #perl6
18:32 dalek book: 630568d | moritz++ | src/mmd-table.svg:
18:32 dalek book: [MMD] crop the SVG to its drawing area, which in turn makes the final PDF more accessible to some viewers like kpdf
18:32 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/63​0568d6415e9d7e98a53f4d64def50550419923
18:35 icwiener joined #perl6
18:38 dalek book: f1a7cf6 | moritz++ | README:
18:38 dalek book: [README] explain PDF creation
18:38 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/f1​a7cf6f0d676ac61d4f0727d54eb4356236730f
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18:58 TSa HaloO
18:58 moritz_ hello TSa
18:59 TSa can I just start a discussion? About role invocant slots e.g.?
18:59 moritz_ sure you can
18:59 moritz_ the question if is anybody up for it
19:00 PerlJam TSa: your posts to p6l looked interesting and useful.
19:00 moritz_ I for one haven't read the p6l thread
19:00 PerlJam (that's about all the input I have :)
19:00 pmichaud I haven't read the p6l thread either :)
19:00 TSa the one I made a minute ago or the older one?
19:00 PerlJam TSa: older one
19:00 fax left #perl6
19:00 fax joined #perl6
19:00 * PerlJam read the new one
19:00 TSa the idea is to have the class a role is composed into in the invocant slot of the role type sig
19:01 pmichaud PerlJam++   # Thousand Oaks
19:01 pmichaud PerlJam: any comments on the release process itself?
19:01 TSa Perljam: the only update is that Foo means Foo[Foo:]
19:03 PerlJam pmichaud: not really. Seemed straight-forwardish.  There are a couple of grey areas where the release manager has to use his/her own judgement and being self-doubting I kind of would liked to have some more guidelines, but the other than that, no worries.
19:04 dalek nqp-rx: 981e5ea | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
19:04 dalek nqp-rx: Allow prefix token peeks to traverse through initial subrules.
19:04 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/9​81e5ead36ca28dcffc14677403a1ed229d9ca52
19:04 dalek nqp-rx: 3b82660 | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
19:04 dalek nqp-rx: Rename some internal methods to be more consistent.
19:04 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/3​b826603c2f0290ec707621c628451bba14f23fd
19:04 moritz_ PerlJam: feel free to augment the release guide, for example to be more verbose about regressing on tests
19:05 pmichaud +1
19:05 PerlJam moritz_: I feel free to modify anything ... it's just doing it without getting distracted that always seems to be the problem   :-)
19:06 PerlJam In fact, I'm surprised I was able to go through the release process without distraction (twice even!)
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19:07 pmichaud I'm wondering when nqp-rx's release cycle should be
19:07 pmichaud I'm guessing one week before Parrot
19:07 PerlJam pmichaud: once a month 2 days before the parrot release  ;)
19:08 pmichaud well, I'm hoping that parrot will include a copy of nqp-rx in its bundles
19:08 PerlJam did I read yesterday or so on #parrot that japhb was going to start using nqp-rx for plumage?
19:11 pmichaud yes
19:11 pmichaud likely so, since I expect the existing nqp/pge to be deprecated
19:12 japhb PerlJam, you read correctly.  :-)
19:13 TSa is my proposal a worthwile attempt to settle the Dogwood problem?
19:18 PerlJam TSa: I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of it.
19:18 TSa well I bind together role selection and subclassing
19:19 TSa the idea is that every role is parametric on the class it's composed into
19:19 PerlJam TSa: automatically and invisibly?
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19:19 TSa most of the time, yes
19:20 TSa actually the notation Foo[Bar:] is *the* type notation of Perl 6 then
19:21 PerlJam Well, you can quibble with TimToady on the syntax, but assuming some sort of notation exists, it sounds useful
19:21 PerlJam But it's always the repercussions that you *don't* see that get you into trouble  ;)
19:22 PerlJam I haven't looked at it long enough to see what I'm not seeing.
19:22 TSa It's backed by f-bounded polymorphism
19:23 TSa well, it depends a bit on how convenient coercion routines are to write
19:23 TSa what e.g. is the syntax to meddle with the dispatch table of an object?
19:24 spinclad class C is also { method newmethod(...) {...} }
19:24 spinclad maybe
19:24 spinclad $object does C;
19:27 spinclad (i think that answers a different question than you're asking)
19:27 TSa yeah, I just want to make sure that bark hits Dog::bark in Dogwood
19:28 spinclad (question about the meta-obj protocol for adding/wrapping/resolving methods?)
19:29 TSa yes
19:30 spinclad i think neither rakudo nor recentish spec do anything special to resolve methods to the role environment they're invoked from
19:31 spinclad (recentish meaning before the recent thread)
19:31 PerlJam spinclad: you are correct.
19:31 PerlJam (thus TSa's musings :)
19:32 TSa so at least it's a new thought?
19:32 lumi joined #perl6
19:33 PerlJam new to me anyway, dunno about jnthn or TimToady or pmichaud or anyone else who's like to have to implement the mechanisms of method access
19:33 spinclad recently we have $ob.R::method, which i'm not clear on the mechanics enabling it
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19:34 PerlJam spinclad: that's different to what TSa is proposing though.  That twiddles the method to get the right semantics. TSa wants to attach it to the "type"
19:34 spinclad but that's forcing the choice of role, not following the surrounding environment
19:35 spinclad agreed
19:36 PerlJam (does anyone else get an icky feeling when they see/hear the word "type"?  Like it's too generic these days?  e.g. "user")
19:36 TSa Hmm, the only thing it does is invoke the coercion routine as needed
19:36 spinclad (i *like* resolving types at compile time!)
19:37 TSa I like resolving issues in one spot: the class
19:38 dalek nqp-rx: b7a03fc | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/Grammar.pm:
19:38 dalek nqp-rx: [nqp]:  Make statements smarter about detecting end of block/arglist/compunit.
19:38 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/b​7a03fcb1d1fef11edcb13deb99b2c163e65e0b7
19:39 PerlJam TSa: it looks like you're saying attach enough information to the class so that later, you can say things like "for the purposes of this invocation, treat a Dogwood as a Dog so that calls to bark() within the dynamic scope it will call Dog::bark"
19:39 PerlJam TSa: correct?
19:39 spinclad my partial objection to resolving a method to its invoking role: when the role intends to call the overriding method if any
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19:40 TSa Perljam: yes
19:40 TSa spinclad: everything is under control of the object's conversion routine
19:40 spinclad in which the role provides interface and implementation, and calls the imterface.
19:40 TSa that nicely encapsulates things
19:41 TSa contrast that with $object.Role::method
19:41 TSa there the user forces an odd call on the object
19:42 spinclad conversion routine: giving the object the aspect of a given role?
19:42 TSa with a potentially wrong object environment
19:42 spinclad agreed there
19:43 TSa well, the conversions are between classes not roles
19:43 spinclad s/role/class/, then
19:44 spinclad sounds like one would want to reify the different aspects a bit then (more)
19:44 TSa sorry, could you restate the problem. I didn't get it
19:45 TSa I hope conversion routines are a well understood concept
19:45 TSa they are already part of the spec at least
19:45 spinclad give a Dogwood two attributes, its Dog aspect and its Wood aspect:
19:45 TSa ok
19:46 spinclad class Dogwood { ... has Dog $.dog = asDog(self); has Wood $.wood = asWood(self); ... }
19:47 spinclad so $dogwood.dog.bark barks and $dogwood.wood.bark grows slowly
19:48 pugs_svn r28884 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for RT #69967, constant declarations and classes
19:49 PerlJam spinclad: that's a good solution actually, except you'd use delegation and no conversions.
19:50 PerlJam (Wanting the same method from two different roles to be present in the same class is a design smell for sure)
19:50 spinclad yes, you could delegate most methods (the unambiguous ones) to $.dog or $.wood directly.
19:51 TSa the problem is always where the slot sets overlap
19:51 spinclad i don't see that you can delegate .bark to either, or that $.dog or $.wood could delegate .bark back to their $.self.
19:51 TSa correct, the nformation must come from the environment
19:52 PerlJam s/environment/programmer/
19:52 TSa in my proposal the environment are constraints on the container
19:53 TSa Perljam: the programmer is not present when calls are performed ;)
19:53 spinclad in this case, the environment within the Dogproxy and Woodproxy attributes, each of which realizes .bark
19:53 TSa except when single stepping in the debugger, of course
19:54 TSa so the programmer has to encode her intentions into the environment
19:54 spinclad the proxies give separate places to put the different behaviors
19:54 PerlJam right.
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19:55 TSa the vehicle in Perl 6 for this purpose are  type constraints
19:55 TSa as  in most other languages as well btw
19:56 spinclad i don't yet see that that is the vehicle at present
19:57 PerlJam Right now, I see this particular problem as a rare-ish edge case.  Once people start using roles in the ways we envision (or ways we can't yet envision), we'll get a better handle on how to solve the problem.
19:57 PerlJam I mean Moose has had roles for a while now and I don't think anyone has seriously run into this problem except as a thought experiement.
19:57 moritz_ have they? we should ask the Moose roles
19:57 moritz_ s/roles/guys/
19:58 * moritz_ distracted
19:58 spinclad i don't see how one passes an object-with-constraint around (as argument, etc) without making it a full proxy object
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19:59 TSa this is simple: it is a store or n-store in the container
19:59 dr_df0 hi, all
19:59 pugs_svn r28885 | moritz++ | [t/spec] Tests for RT #69893, wrapping subroutines in traits
19:59 PerlJam moritz_: good idea.
19:59 TSa or call or no-call in dispatch
19:59 spinclad and i don't see the type constraints on a container governing the method resolution on the object in it.
20:00 TSa indirectly they do
20:00 spinclad (as currently spec'd and implemented, at least)
20:00 TSa because they enforce type and type dispatches methods
20:01 TSa this is at least my understanding
20:02 TSa the interesting question is when exactly coercion routines are called
20:02 PerlJam TSa: as late as possible ;)
20:02 spinclad (on the other hand, in Array[int32], say, the Array is providing the type when boxing and the typecheck when unboxing)
20:02 PerlJam Perl 6 is a lazy language after all  :)
20:02 pmurias TSa: you don't intent for a proxy object to be created?
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20:03 dr_df0 I've got problem with latest rakudo/parrot on snow leopard
20:03 dr_df0 when trying to start in stops with: dyld: lazy symbol binding failed: Symbol not found: _tgetent
20:03 dr_df0 any ideas?
20:04 PerlJam dr_df0: latest from the repo?
20:04 TSa pmurias: I don't understand that question
20:04 dr_df0 PerlJam: yes
20:04 moritz_ dr_df0: rakudo is known not to build with newest parrot
20:05 moritz_ dr_df0: itstill needs the 1.7.0 release
20:05 vallor hi hi there -- where can i find a list of targets for the --target option for the Rakudo perl6?  And also:  I found the --target=pir, but when I try to run it with parrot, I get: error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected PREG, expecting '(' ('$P25')
20:05 dr_df0 moritz_: ok, so I need not to run Configure.pl with --gen-parrot then?
20:05 PerlJam maybe rakudo should start requiring exact parrot revisions modulo a --dev switch to Configure.pl or something
20:06 spinclad dr_df0: i think you should, it should fetch 1.7.0 for you
20:06 pmichaud PerlJam: a range of revisions might work out okay
20:06 dr_df0 spinclad, moritz_: that's what I did then, on a freshly updated git repository
20:06 spinclad dr_df0: sorry, ignore that maybe, i think i forgot what --gen-parrot does
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20:07 pmurias TSa: Foo[Bar:] is non-specced syntax?
20:07 lisppaste3 vallor pasted "perl6 vs. parrot -- syntax error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89117
20:07 PerlJam pmurias: correct
20:07 TSa not yet at least
20:08 pmichaud it will all change soon anyway, as Rakudo will have to also specify the version of nqp-rx it's using
20:08 TSa roles don't have an invocant slot in their type signature
20:09 TSa but my idea is to put the class it is composed into there
20:09 pmurias what would be the point?
20:09 TSa then you always thing in terms of the duo of role and class when you think type in Perl 6
20:10 pmurias why would i need to do that?
20:10 pmurias s/need/want/
20:10 PerlJam TSa: so ... if the roles are parameterized on the class they are composed into and that syntax is exposed, what does   class Dogwood does Dog[Fred:] does Wood[Barney:} { ... }   mean?
20:10 PerlJam er, s/:}/:]/
20:11 japhb pmichaud, this issue is actually coming up for Plumage, as I need to design the tools for upgrading HLLs/modules installed by Plumage, and making sure they don't trip over incompatible Parrot (and soon nqp-rx) versions.  I also want to be able to allow the user to ask Plumage to upgrade Parrot to latest version compatible with the installed projects.
20:11 TSa sort of that Dogwood inherits from Barney and Fred
20:11 PerlJam "sort of"?
20:11 japhb pmichaud, I could use some input on where you see your pain points there.
20:11 TSa and installs these classes as contraints on the roles Dog and Wood
20:12 PerlJam Hmm
20:12 pmichaud japhb: I hadn't gotten to the pain points for that yet.  But in general I've been thinking of extending Rakudo's Configure.pl script a bit for that
20:12 pmichaud it's worked out well, and it's pretty simple
20:13 TSa Perljam: sort of because you would otherwse write that with 'is'
20:13 pmichaud in fact, I just stole Rakudo's Configure.pl script for nqp-rx and only needed a couple of small modifications (mostly in messages)
20:14 PerlJam TSa: now you're violating one of the perl 6 design principles I think  :)
20:14 TSa which one?
20:14 japhb pmichaud, hmmm.  I guess I'd just request that the version dependencies be easy to parse out of wherever you put them.  (build/PARROT_REVISION is a nice idea)
20:14 dr_df0 pmichaud: on ubuntu perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot works well
20:14 dr_df0 with the lates version of parrot
20:14 PerlJam TSa: similar things shouldn't be different (or something like that)
20:15 japhb It looks like I need to teach Plumage to be able to read dependencies after fetching the project
20:15 * PerlJam is operating mostly on intuition right now
20:15 vallor okay, will break it down for ya:  perl6 --target=pir myprogram.pl > myprogram.pir ; parrot myprogram.pir # is that supposed to work?  could the system's installed parrot be different than that used by rakudo?  or...?
20:15 japhb Or after configuring it, hmmm
20:16 PerlJam TSa: anyway, I think there's a kernel of a good idea in your proposal, but you and TimToady or jnthn will have to work out the details.  :)
20:16 pmichaud vallor:  that doesn't work yet
20:16 vallor ah, okay -- then i'm not crazy :)
20:16 pmichaud the myprogram.pir file is missing the dynops and dynpmc loading
20:16 pmichaud and there's traditionally been a bug in parrot that prevents that from working.  (The bug may have been fixed, but rakudo hasn't been updated for it yet)
20:17 vallor thank you.  :)  what --target= can I use with perl6 then, that would work with parrot, if any?
20:17 pmurias TSa: how is Foo[Bar:] different from Foo&Bar?
20:18 pmichaud vallor: there's not one at present.
20:18 spinclad pmichaud: ooc, is there any obstacle to loading multiple dynops/dynpmc's, say as needed by multiple modules one uses?
20:19 pmichaud rakudo won't ever be able to compile completely standalone parrot code -- you'll always need the libraries and dynamic pmcs/opcodes present
20:19 TSa in Foo&Bar both are types in Foo[Bar:] Foo is a role and Bar a class
20:19 vallor daaaag nabbit...okay, will wait patiently -- but it's nice to get one's feet wet with perl6 -- I'm a perl5 guy, it's been my favorite language for a long time (though I barely program anymore)
20:20 PerlJam vallor: why do you want PIR out of rakudo anyway?
20:20 pmichaud we're trying to shorten the wait :)
20:20 TSa in my proposal Foo&Bar actually means Foo[Foo:] & Bar[Bar:]
20:20 vallor PerlJam: or pbc -- the idea being being able to pre-compile some often-used bits of perl for faster invocation on web sites
20:20 japhb pmichaud, but there should be nothing preventing outputting a PIR file that includes a header to load the dynpmcs/dynops, neh?
20:21 japhb s/header/:init sub.
20:21 pmichaud japhb: header
20:21 pmichaud :init sub is too late
20:21 PerlJam vallor: you could use mod_perl6
20:21 japhb I meant :immediate
20:21 japhb sorry
20:21 pmichaud no, there shouldn't be anything preventing that.  Last time I tried it (several months ago) there was a bug that prevented it from working in a .HLL
20:21 * PerlJam suddenly wonders if jhorwitz has been keeping up with rakudo
20:22 TSa I'll have to think about the meaning of 'class C does A[B:]' though
20:22 pmichaud :immediate seems to be lost inside of .pbc files
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20:22 vallor PerlJam: that's a possibility, didn't realize there was a mod_perl6 out there
20:22 japhb pmichaud, oh, ouch
20:23 PerlJam vallor: mod_parrot and mod_perl6.  I'm not sure how up-to-date they are though.
20:23 moritz_ last time I tried one could add the .loadlib lines manually
20:23 pmichaud :immediate really does mean "do it now, while I'm compiling".  But the code that is executed immediately isn't stored in the .pbc, or at least not in a form where it's loaded via load_bytecode.
20:23 pmichaud s/loaded/executed/
20:24 pmichaud the primary purpose for :immediate seems to be to create constant PMC structures that are pre-compiled into the bytecode
20:24 japhb pmichaud, so if it's not an :immediate sub, what kind of "header" are we talking about?  Is there some PBC header that contains a list of dynops/dynpmcs to load?  (I haven't read about the disk format for PBC files)
20:24 pmichaud .load_library
20:25 pmichaud .HLL 'perl6', 'perl6_group'
20:25 pmichaud and
20:25 pmichaud .load_library 'perl6_ops'
20:25 japhb I thought .identifier was a PIR macro ... or is the syntax dual-purpose?
20:25 pmichaud the .HLL line loads in the dynpmcs from perl6_group.so
20:26 pmichaud .identifier is a "directive"
20:26 japhb ah so
20:26 * japhb has Mental Model Fail
20:26 pmichaud in these cases it indicates extra information to be placed into the bytecode that is handled automatically when the bytecode is loaded
20:27 pmichaud (but they aren't executable 'opcodes' in the normal sense, and they live outside of any Parrot sub)
20:27 japhb I think I understand now.
20:27 japhb Thank you, pmichaud++
20:28 lisppaste3 vallor annotated #89117 "pir file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89117#1
20:28 vallor there are .HLL "perl6" lines in the .pir file
20:28 lumi joined #perl6
20:29 PerlJam moritz_: there's no build dir in the book repo.  Should I make one or just add the mkdir() line in the Makefile?
20:29 pmurias TSa: what class Dogwood does Dog[Dogwood:] {...} does is make Dogwood a Dogwood which does the Dog role but not an Object which does the Dog role? right
20:29 pmurias ?
20:29 moritz_ PerlJam: oh, I forgot...
20:30 PerlJam I was just going to make an empty dir in the repo (empty except for .gitignore that is)
20:30 PerlJam make
20:30 PerlJam oops
20:30 spinclad pmurias: parsefail
20:31 vallor PerlJam: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
20:31 vallor :P
20:31 TSa pmurias: correct you got it
20:32 TSa the strange thing in my proposal is to put another class there
20:32 pmurias TSa: that seems contradictory
20:32 spinclad s/is/it/: parsewin
20:33 TSa I see no contradiction
20:34 TSa Dog[Object:] is a different type then Dog[Dogwood:]
20:34 TSa but they share everything the Dog role defines
20:34 pmurias Dog[Dogwood:] is a subtype of Dog[Object:]
20:35 dalek book: aeb5b66 | moritz++ | build/.gitignore:
20:35 dalek book: gitignore
20:35 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/ae​b5b663b78f4f5cadd742fc94e38f7281bc30b2
20:35 pmurias TSa: according to common sense
20:36 * spinclad &  # thanks TSa for discussion
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20:40 pmurias TSa: your "role invocant slot in type sig (was: unusual invocants)" email seems to imply you don't want Dog[Dogwood:] to be a subtype of Dog[Object:] but that will confuse loads of people
20:41 pmurias and doesn't to give us much
20:41 wayland76 joined #perl6
20:42 wayland76 I've temporarily dropped out of the P6 community, but I just came to say pmichaud++ for grammar works, and jnthn++ for sig binding :)
20:43 TSa pmurias: hmm, Dog[Dogwood:] is a subtype of Dog[Object:] but not of Dog[Dog:]
20:43 TSa this is the important point
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20:44 pmurias what is a subtype of Dog[Dog:]?
20:45 TSa everything that does the Dog role and is a subclass of the associated Dog class
20:46 TSa but you can prevent the latter subclass relation by explicitly setting the invovant when composing the role
20:47 snearch joined #perl6
20:47 PerlJam Hmm.
20:47 TSa then Dogwood is not applicable where a Dog[Dog:] is expected
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20:48 PerlJam TSa: Beagle[Object:] is a subtype of Dog[Dog:]?  (assuming that class Beagle is Dog { ... } )
20:49 TSa no, Beagle is a class so Beagle[Object:] is ill-formed
20:50 PerlJam ah, sorry, I had the relationship backwards for a second.
20:50 PerlJam never mind me.  nothing to see here :)
20:51 TSa OK, thanks everybody for your feedback on my idea
20:52 moritz_ PerlJam: now the build/ directory should exit
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21:19 * colomon is in Toronto
21:19 colomon How is the release coming?
21:19 moritz_ it's done.
21:19 moritz_ PerlJam++
21:19 quietfanatic joined #perl6
21:20 colomon \o/
21:20 ShaneC1 joined #perl6
21:20 cognominal in nqp-rx/src/HLL/Grammar.pm,   I have trouble make sense of that rule cail :   <OPER=postfix=postfix>
21:20 cognominal *call
21:21 lumi joined #perl6
21:21 cognominal pmichaud?
21:22 moritz_ two aliases
21:22 moritz_ it calls the postfix rule
21:22 moritz_ and you can access that as $<OPER> or $<postfix>
21:22 cognominal two alias by the same name?
21:23 moritz_ if you just do <OPER=postfix> you can only access it by $<OPER>, not by $<postfix> anymore
21:23 cognominal ok, thx
21:24 cognominal is this specced somewhere?
21:25 moritz_ cognominal: somewhere in S05, presumably ;-)
21:25 cognominal :)
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21:30 PerlJam moritz_: who is doing the first book release?  you or masak?
21:30 moritz_ PerlJam: me
21:32 moritz_ PerlJam: anything you want to get in before?
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21:32 moritz_ (oh, you have about 18 hours or so)
21:33 PerlJam Just making some mods to the preface right now and perhaps some minor editing to other chapters later.
21:33 pmichaud <foo=bar=baz>  isn't explicitly specced in S05, but it was discussed as being valid on IRC some time ago
21:34 pmichaud I decided I preferred having an OPER= alias instead of explicit closure blocks to hoist the <O> information to the higher rule
21:34 pmichaud so then the operator precedence parser always just checks the <OPER> binding for any <O> information
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21:35 cognominal pmichaud, thx for the explanations
21:35 pmichaud and yes,  <OPER=foo=foo> means that the foo subrule is captured as both <OPER> and <foo>, as moritz++ explained :)
21:35 japhb What is <O> ?
21:35 moritz_ if it's valid, it shoudl be in S05
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21:36 pmichaud in STD.pm, the <O> capture contains the operator precedence and associativity information
21:36 japhb ah!
21:36 pmichaud for example   $<O><prec>  is the precedence for whatever operator token was jus tparsed
21:36 pmichaud $<O><assoc> is its associativity
21:36 japhb gotcha
21:36 pmichaud in STD.pm the <O> information is folded into the match object via the PrecOp role/methods near the top of STD.pm
21:37 pmichaud I decided I preferred to have an explicit  <O(...)>  subrule to do the same.
21:37 pmichaud (which also makes sense because it's capturing to <O> )
21:37 pmichaud it also makes it easy to fold in custom <O> information that isn't provided by the role
21:38 pmichaud as in   <O({ %associative, :fiddly })>
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21:38 pmichaud (or something like that)
21:41 pmichaud In NQP's case, it gives us an easy place to hang opcode and structural information
21:41 pugs_svn r28886 | moritz++ | [S05] allow multiple aliases as per IRC consesus
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21:49 PerlJam Hmm. I haven't recieved my announcement email back from p6l.  I wonder if it's being moderated because I used my gmail account to send it.
21:50 moritz_ I received one
21:50 moritz_ don't know if from p6a or p6l
21:51 PerlJam well, that's good enough for me then.  It'll get back to me eventually  :)
21:51 PerlJam I sent it to p6a and Cc: p6l, p6c
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22:16 pmichaud PerlJam: I suspect moderation
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