Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-11-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 TiMBuS joined #perl6
00:03 jnthn pmichaud: I've got a start on the packages stuff. I'll continue on it tomorrow.
00:04 jnthn pmichaud: I think I'm past the initial conceptually tricky bit (figuring out how it should look).
00:04 pnate joined #perl6
00:04 jnthn So now it's "just code" for a while. Expect to commit something tomorrow.
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00:18 bpetering hai everyone :)
00:21 bpetering jnthn: (backlogging a lil): what's the issue with Parrot/Rakudo/MSVC++ ?
00:21 alester joined #perl6
00:22 bpetering reason being, i'm stuck on a vista machine for the next 2 weeks, and if masak wants his tests i need to get Rakudo running :)
00:22 bpetering just wondering what is the best way to do so.
00:23 jnthn bpetering: ohhai
00:23 jnthn bpetering: As far as I know, it's something to do with manifest.
00:24 Juerd bpetering: feather? :)
00:24 jnthn It gets right to the end and then fails when making perl6.exe.
00:24 jnthn Juerd: shush! We might get somebody to fix Rakudo on Vista! :-P
00:24 bpetering haha :P
00:24 jnthn :-)
00:24 Juerd jnthn: You think anyone else would notice? ;)
00:25 Juerd Anyway, I'm off to bed
00:25 bpetering I think vista needs to die, and if anyone has Rakudo running on it, it's slightly more reason to let it live :)
00:25 Juerd Good localtime.
00:25 bpetering night Juerd :)
00:25 jnthn Juerd: Well, I guess the other people who are stuck on Vista. ;-)
00:25 jnthn night Juerd o/
00:26 bpetering jnthn: i'm a little impatient, and judging from masak++'s latest blog post, he is too.
00:26 bpetering so i'm thinking cygwin.
00:27 bpetering also, how hopeful are you about Rakudo on Win 7? thinking about going that route in 2 weeks or so. :)
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00:29 bpetering err, "masak++++'s SECOND latest". My goodness that man is productive.
00:31 pnate joined #perl6
00:36 bpetering jnthn: oops, reread what i wrote, don't interpret that as demanding anything from you. (waking up)
00:36 jnthn bpetering: I'm going to be doing Rakudo dev on Win7 in a month or so.
00:37 jnthn bpetering: I think it'll share the same issue as Vista.
00:38 bpetering jnthn: ok, thank you :)
00:38 orafu joined #perl6
00:38 s1n yay, i can haz references!
00:39 * s1n in reference (pun) to larry's recent commits
00:44 Wolfman2000 joined #perl6
00:44 Wolfman2000 Evening. Does anyone know if there are any web frameworks already working on Perl 6?
00:44 pnate2 joined #perl6
00:45 bpetering Wolfman2000: check out http://github.com/masak/web
00:45 Wolfman2000 bpetering: thanks. *goes to read*
00:46 bpetering Wolfman2000: np
00:47 bpetering jnthn: and keep up the good work... you and pmichaud have been fearsomely productive of late :)
00:49 Wolfman2000 ...this seems like it can be useful.  ...when it's time for me to upgrade to Perl 6 that is.
00:49 bpetering Wolfman2000: what's stopping you, out of curiosity?
00:49 Wolfman2000 bpetering: still used to 5.10.0
00:50 Wolfman2000 waiting for Perl 6 to become more...mainstream I guess
00:50 bpetering Wolfman2000: we expect to take over the world sometime around April next year :)
00:50 Wolfman2000 Then I'll keep an eye out
00:51 bpetering seriously, read about "rakudo star" - it'll make it possible for Perl 6 to start becoming mainstream :)
00:54 Wolfman2000 So that's why April 2010 is the goal. perl 6 is being released...not feature complete
00:55 bpetering Wolfman2000: Perl 6 is a specification developed at the same time as the implementations of it
00:55 Wolfman2000 I don't know if that's a good thing or not
00:55 bpetering so by necessity, the implementations have releases which implement and incomplete spec
00:56 bpetering *an incomplete
00:56 bpetering we tend to think so, because then Perl 6 can avoid the problem of "oops, the language design was frozen way before anyone tried to do anything useful with it"
00:58 Wolfman2000 ...the reason I asked about the web development stuff...I right now use Catalyst for one of my websites. If you require Perl 6 testing, any sort of tutorial or guide to convert my page to the Perl 6 web framework could be useful.
00:59 bpetering Web.pm (URL i linked you to) isn't really ready for production use
01:00 Wolfman2000 I'm guessing...not much is ready
01:01 bpetering we have nothing near Ruby on Rails yet, true
01:01 quietfanatic joined #perl6
01:01 bpetering but we're also aiming way higher than Ruby
01:01 Wolfman2000 Well, this is a Perl room
01:03 bpetering that's not a negative comment about Ruby. "It's a nice language, I use it occasionally"
01:04 Wolfman2000 Hard to tell: sarcasm on the web isn't my strong point
01:04 bpetering Wolfman2000: neither mine. (that wasn't sarcastic) :)
01:05 TimToady well, you can tell how much we like other languages by how much we borrow back from them. :)
01:05 TimToady and certainly, we like a lot of Ruby because some large percentage of it was borrowed from Perl 5 :)
01:06 Wolfman2000 TimToady: I was not aware of the language borrowing
01:06 TimToady Perl 6's twigil semantics are essentially Ruby's sigil semantics, for one example
01:06 TimToady and we're very much more Everything Is An Object than we were
01:07 TimToady on the other hand, Ruby's made some mistakes too, and we've tried not to borrow those :)
01:08 Wolfman2000 I think all languages have made mistakes at least once
01:08 Wolfman2000 PHP is looking to make one themselves with the namespace separator
01:08 Wolfman2000 ...why \?
01:09 TimToady well, at least they'll *have* namespaces...finally...
01:09 TimToady and hey, Perl used ' for a while, which was a bit of a problem
01:10 bpetering Wolfman2000: the consensus around here is that "PHP is a demon child which should have been strangled in the crib"... (or worse)
01:11 Wolfman2000 bpetering: ...hope you don't mind that I actually have some websites that use PHP then.
01:11 bpetering Wolfman2000: not at all, it succeeded for a reason - namely, it got some things right
01:11 TimToady wel, one of our main rakudo developers has a wiki in php :)
01:12 TimToady what they got right was making it dropdead easy to get started
01:12 Wolfman2000 TimToady: most wikis are in PHP
01:13 TimToady most disruptive technologies succeed by doing something better and something else worse
01:14 TimToady but I suspect the php world is quickly reaching its natural limits, much as Perl 5 has.
01:14 TimToady both will see reduced growth in the future
01:16 Wolfman2000 ...do you require more testing with Web.pm?
01:16 bpetering Wolfman2000: we'd love any sort of contribution. Testing Web.pm would be great :)
01:16 TimToady which "you" are you referring to?  "you" in this case is probably some folks who are asleep right now...
01:16 Wolfman2000 "you" in general
01:17 Wolfman2000 I have...4.7 GB of space on my virtual server. I shouldn't require that much for Perl 6, right?
01:19 TimToady I suspect that's probably a bit more than enough
01:20 Wolfman2000 ...stupid aptitude. told it to install git and it didn't even put it in the path
01:20 Wolfman2000 My virtual private server is Ubuntu, TW
01:20 Wolfman2000 BTW*
01:23 quietfanatic joined #perl6
01:24 bpetering Wolfman2000: like TimToady said, the author of Web.pm lives in Sweden, and so is probably asleep right now.
01:24 Wolfman2000 bpetering: Sweden...what's the time difference...5, 6 hours from EST?
01:25 bpetering GMT+2, I think
01:25 * bpetering looks for DateTime.pm or somesuch
01:34 jnthn It's 2:34 right now in Sweden.
01:34 * jnthn lives in the same timezone
01:34 jnthn 2:34am that is ;-)
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01:37 sjohnson Perl 6 borrows a lot of good things from Perl 5 too :)
01:38 Wolfman2000 sjohnson: I figured as such
01:38 Wolfman2000 well, I have enough time to get git, get perl 6, and hopefully figure out enough of Web.pm to put one of my websites on it
01:39 Wolfman2000 Of course...I would like to be able to keep as much of my URL names the same as possible.
01:39 alester joined #perl6
01:40 bpetering Wolfman2000: all the best :)
01:40 nbrown joined #perl6
01:46 Wolfman2000 ...I just heard my dad laugh at one of the more recent Get a Mac ads
01:47 Wolfman2000 Sounded like PC was claiming that each version of Windows would have none of the problems the previous one did. "Trust Me".
01:47 Wolfman2000 Based on my own experiences with windows...I'll say no
01:48 pugs_svn r28978 | lwall++ | [STD] $_ is ref
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01:52 carlin zaslon: still alive?
01:52 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
01:52 carlin :)
01:55 carlin I think that false alarm about pm's blog was caused by a temporary connection problem ... need error handling there. Successfully alerted to masak's post though :-)
02:04 carlin zaslon: add carlin http://theintersect.org/category/perl6/feed/
02:04 zaslon I am now following carlin's blog
02:04 carlin zaslon: link carlin
02:04 zaslon carlin's blog is at http://theintersect.org
02:05 carlin zaslon: remove carlin
02:05 zaslon I am no longer following carlin's blog
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02:22 Wolfman2000 okay, installing Perl 6 now...and I forgot there are different...builds, I guess, of Perl6. There's Parrot, Pugs, Rakudo (which seems to use Parrot)...any others?
02:23 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Parrot is a VM, not a Perl 6 implementation.  Rakudo is a Perl 6 impl that uses Parrot.  Pugs is a Perl 6 impl that doesn't use parrot.
02:23 Wolfman2000 ah
02:24 revdiablo Wolfman2000: There are other Perl 6 implementations at various stages of donenness, SMOP and STD.pm (the latter of which is really just a grammar, as far as I know)
02:24 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Rakudo is probably the most done, or at least the one with the most promising future as far as I can tell
02:24 bpetering Wolfman2000: Pugs hasn't been developed in a while... even so it's nearly as advanced as Rakudo is today, though jnthn and pmichaud are catching up fast :)
02:25 pmichaud I'm not sure I'd agree with that.
02:25 bpetering pmichaud: oh?
02:25 Wolfman2000 I'll just stick with rakudo for now since that's the one installing
02:25 pmichaud in some ways we've surpassed pugs a fair bit.
02:25 jnthn I think in some areas we're waaay past. :-)
02:25 revdiablo I thought Rakudo passed Pugs, but I could be wrong
02:25 jnthn Especially by the time ng lands.
02:26 jnthn :-)
02:26 jnthn anyway, sleep for me - night!
02:26 bpetering night jnthn, sleep well, get up late :)
02:26 diakopter 'night
02:27 revdiablo Interesting.  Googling for Rakudo, I see perlbuzz.org as the top result and perlfoundation.org as the 2nd.  Rakudo.org is the 4th
02:27 * Wolfman2000 is still compiling Perl6...or is it Parrot right now? Gah, not used to compiling during a compile I guess.
02:27 * Wolfman2000 goes back to reading the synopsis
02:27 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Most sufficiently advanced computer systems have multiple layers that can or need to be compiled separately
02:28 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Think of parrot as a required library =)
02:28 Wolfman2000 ...alright, I'll buy that
02:28 mjk joined #perl6
02:29 alester perlbuz.com
02:29 alester perlbuzz.com
02:29 alester and maybe that's because of perlbuzz.com linking to Rakudo.org everywhere
02:29 revdiablo Oh yeah, .com
02:30 revdiablo Wouldn't that increase rakudo.org's pagerank?
02:30 revdiablo Maybe the googlebots are intoxicated
02:30 alester who knows?
02:34 bpetering Wolfman2000: which parts of the synopsis are you reading?
02:35 Wolfman2000 read a bit of S09, looking at S06 now
02:35 patspam joined #perl6
02:36 bpetering it can get topsy-turvy at times :)
02:36 Wolfman2000 agreed
02:36 Wolfman2000 also, right now redoing the compilation of Perl6: seemed like it hung for too long to my liking
02:37 revdiablo Wolfman2000: If you know perl 5, you might want to take a look at this series of posts: http://perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6
02:37 revdiablo I find them much more easily digestible than the synopses
02:37 Wolfman2000 a refresher course wouldn't hurt. good idea
02:38 xp_prg joined #perl6
02:39 bpetering Wolfman2000: do you have a lot of programming experience?
02:39 Wolfman2000 bpetering: bacherlors in Computer Science. specialized more in the web development end, though.
02:40 bpetering Wolfman2000: oh, me too :) (still working on the degree though)
02:40 Wolfman2000 already have the degree from NCState
02:40 Wolfman2000 ...okay, on the same line it hung...allegedly
02:41 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Compiling rakudo hangs here." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89705
02:42 bpetering Wolfman2000: that came up a day or two ago, let me backlog and maybe i can find it for you :)
02:42 Wolfman2000 ...okay, it's advancing now
02:42 Wolfman2000 that file just took awhile
02:43 Wolfman2000 doesn't exactly help that I'm SSHing into basically a linux box in the middle of nowhere
02:44 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Running the build in screen, I hope
02:44 Wolfman2000 actually...no
02:44 Wolfman2000 never did figure out how to get screen to work on Terminal
02:44 Wolfman2000 Besides: interesting to see the build process
02:45 Wolfman2000 src/thread.c:1386: warning: suggest braces around empty body in ‘do’ statement  Don't know how much you guys care about keeping your code warning free, but this looks like an interesting one.
02:45 revdiablo It's usually pretty easy.  You type "screen" and then it seems to do nothing, you are simply given another shell.  The nice part is if your connection drops, you can ssh back in and reconnect to the terminal without losing anything.
02:45 bpetering Wolfman2000: that looks very interesting!
02:46 Wolfman2000 why would the compiler make suggestions? I thought it was supposed to just parse what it could or choke.
02:46 Wolfman2000 I never understood that.
02:50 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Some things are legal but may be problematic. Warnings are often added after the feature's been around long enough to require backwards compatibility
02:50 revdiablo Wolfman2000: The warning doesn't break back compat, but does dissuade use of problematic features
02:52 Wolfman2000 I believe someone mentioned recently that Perl 6 is being designed to avoid mistakes. Wouldn't keeping the warnings in...be a mistake?
02:52 Wolfman2000 also, new slow file: src/ops/core_ops_cg.c
02:55 * bpetering hugs Wolfman2000
02:55 Wolfman2000 ...I thank you, but no thanks
02:55 Wolfman2000 don't know you that well
02:56 carlin bpetering: we have bots for that :-)
02:56 carlin hugme: hug Wolfman2000
02:56 * hugme hugs Wolfman2000
02:56 carlin Wolfman2000: how much RAM does the box you're compiling on have?
02:56 Wolfman2000 256 MB
02:57 bpetering Wolfman2000: well, if you hang around long enough maybe you will :)
02:57 Wolfman2000 alright...guess I may as well learn about screen
02:58 Wolfman2000 I've disconnected from my box now
02:58 Wolfman2000 what's the quick and dirty that I need to know for using screen to connect to my box?
03:01 bpetering Wolfman2000: not sure i follow :|
03:02 Wolfman2000 ...nevermind. I think I figured out some of the basics
03:02 Wolfman2000 http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/9/16838/14935
03:03 Wolfman2000 I've got my box screen detached...I assume it's running, doing it's thing...I just don't know if it's using much of my cable modem though or if it's going faster
03:04 bpetering Wolfman2000: don't think it's possible to go faster than that
03:04 Wolfman2000 than what it was going while I wasn't screened you mean?
03:05 bpetering pretty much, not sure i have the words to express exactly what i mean
03:07 revdiablo Wolfman2000: If you ssh back in, running "screen -x" will reconnect to your prior screen session
03:07 revdiablo Perhaps I replied a little too late =)
03:07 Wolfman2000 revdiablo: I've actually been using screen -r to reconnect to my detached screen
03:07 revdiablo That works too. The difference being -x will let you connect to a session even if it's still connected elsewhere.
03:10 Wolfman2000 ...even with screen, seems like some files just take awhile to compile
03:11 bpetering sometimes things don't happen as quickly as you want
03:14 bpetering i've been wanting to upgrade my laptop for a long time, give it some more RAM... make compiles quicker :)
03:15 Wolfman2000 my laptop (primary computer) already has 2 GB, but it's over 2.5 years old
03:16 bpetering Wolfman2000: time for an upgrade? :)
03:16 Wolfman2000 bpetering: no money
03:16 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Screen won't usually speed you up much, but it'll sure be nice if you get disconnected halfway through an hour-long compile
03:21 Wolfman2000 ...does perl6 normally take an hour to compile?
03:22 TimToady no, you're probably thrashing badly with only 256m
03:23 Wolfman2000 Let's see...4 websites to my name on that box. One on Catalyst::Perl, one on Pylons, one on CodeIgniter, and one with plain PHP. Using nginx for all four of them.
03:23 Wolfman2000 well, lighttpd + nginx for the PHP solutions
03:24 Wolfman2000 ooh...Perl 6 offers multi subs. Nice. :)
03:29 carlin Thought so ... there's a memory leak that wasn't there a week ago
03:29 Wolfman2000 carlin: ...you mean some of the files I mentioned...are causing leaks?
03:30 carlin Wolfman2000: no you should be fine
03:30 Wolfman2000 ...was fine
03:30 Wolfman2000 and...my attempt at sending hte process to the background failed so I could check memory
03:31 Wolfman2000 ...ooh boy. swap space is near full
03:35 Wolfman2000 still...if it's not one file, it's another that likes to have trouble compiling
03:35 Wolfman2000 And I don't exactly have a lot of websites I can just...take off
03:36 bpetering Wolfman2000: which one?
03:37 Wolfman2000 src/ops/core_ops_cg.c  <-- that file still hates me
03:38 Wolfman2000 brb: need a drink
03:42 patspam joined #perl6
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03:46 Wolfman2000 sorry about that.
03:47 * Wolfman2000 restarts the compiling process again, then just C-a d's it
03:49 revdiablo Wolfman2000: yeah, that's the ticket
03:50 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
03:50 Wolfman2000 ...okay, this is rich. I can assign custom operators to get things like 5! to mean factorial of 5.
03:51 revdiablo Wolfman2000: It seems like a lovely feature.  I wonder how it will play out in practice.
03:51 Wolfman2000 I have to wonder if utf-8 characters can be used for these custom operators
03:51 bpetering Wolfman2000: (x)emacs?
03:51 Wolfman2000 bpetering: if you're asking what type of text editor I use on my VPS box... (x)emacs > vi(m), but nano > (x)emacs
03:52 japhb Wolfman2000, yes, you can define operators with the full Unicode character set.
03:52 Wolfman2000 japhb: Just confirmed. € is used for a doubling operation
03:53 japhb Makes defining math modules quite nice.  Like actually using the native symbols for set operations, vector calculations, calculus ...
03:54 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Square Root Prefix Function?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89706
03:55 Wolfman2000 Hopefully someone who already has Perl 6 can give that a shot
03:59 quietfanatic rakudo: sub prefix:<√> ($x) {sqrt $x}; say √2
03:59 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«1.4142135623731␤»
03:59 quietfanatic Can't change precedence yet though
03:59 quietfanatic I think
04:00 quietfanatic rakudo: sub prefix:<√> ($x) is tighter(&infix:<*>) {sqrt $x}; say √2*4
04:00 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
04:00 quietfanatic rakudo: sub prefix:<√> ($x) {sqrt $x}; say √2*4
04:00 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«5.65685424949238␤»
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04:01 quietfanatic rakudo: sub prefix:<√> ($x) {sqrt $x}; say √8
04:01 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«2.82842712474619␤»
04:01 quietfanatic huh
04:01 quietfanatic oh
04:01 quietfanatic rakudo: sub prefix:<√> ($x) {sqrt $x}; say √16
04:01 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«4␤»
04:01 quietfanatic hum
04:01 Wolfman2000 ...what is the NL character?
04:02 quietfanatic That's a newline
04:02 Wolfman2000 fanciest way I've ever seen a newline
04:02 quietfanatic Unicode FTW
04:02 Wolfman2000 what character is it?
04:02 Wolfman2000 err, point I guess
04:03 quietfanatic U+2424: ␤
04:03 Wolfman2000 I wonder if buu can put that into buubot
04:04 Wolfman2000 ENUMS!
04:04 Wolfman2000 True enums in Perl 6...oh man
04:04 Wolfman2000 so far, the main enums I've liked the best were Java's enums. They provided...more than the traditional enum
04:04 quietfanatic They're not entirely perfect yet, but they're close
04:05 quietfanatic Perl's enums will act like an int or a type
04:05 quietfanatic For instance, Bool is an enum
04:05 Wolfman2000 True and False
04:06 Wolfman2000 ...wait, Perl now has True and False?
04:06 quietfanatic enum Bool <False True>
04:06 Wolfman2000 Good grief, you're going to make me squee so much I may hurt myself.
04:06 quietfanatic They're still 1 and 0, just enum'd
04:06 quietfanatic IIRC
04:07 Wolfman2000 ...better than 0 and -1 at least
04:07 bpetering i agree completely
04:07 quietfanatic Yes; in Perl 5 I attach a ! to the beginning of every system() call
04:08 Wolfman2000 ...I meant -1 and 0
04:08 Wolfman2000 where -1 is true
04:08 quietfanatic Well -1 is true...
04:08 quietfanatic rakudo: if -1 {say "-1 is true"}
04:08 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«-1 is true␤»
04:08 Wolfman2000 quietfanatic: I'm not questioning that
04:09 Wolfman2000 I just mean...1 and 0 are more universally known as true and false
04:09 Wolfman2000 versus -1 and 0
04:09 quietfanatic of course
04:09 pmichaud plumage's Configure.nqp should use  pir::load_bytecode(...)   instead of load_bytecode(...)
04:09 pmichaud oops, wrong chan
04:10 Wolfman2000 ...can anyone perhaps tell me what a good revision of rakudo is for me to compile? I think the latest git/svn version is...not working for me.
04:11 Wolfman2000 ...wait. what version OF GCC do I have/
04:11 Wolfman2000 ?*
04:11 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . ? @ v
04:12 Wolfman2000 ...doesn't seem like I have that bug
04:12 * Wolfman2000 puts in the optimize fix...maybe that will do it
04:13 revdiablo Wolfman2000: I would probably start with one of the monthly releases
04:13 Wolfman2000 revdiablo: If this doesn't work, I'll look into it
04:14 TimToady if it's the thrashing problem, the monthly probably won't be any better
04:14 Wolfman2000 No clue if it's thrashing
04:14 Wolfman2000 that's the problem
04:14 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Is it bailing with an error or simply taking longer than you expect?
04:15 Wolfman2000 latter
04:15 Wolfman2000 I force cancel it with C-c
04:15 TimToady the core ops file is probably a huge switch statement
04:16 revdiablo Wolfman2000: Wait it out and see if it finishes
04:16 Wolfman2000 this time, I intend to
04:17 revdiablo Wow, the rakudo spectest progress graph looks pretty amazing these days
04:17 Wolfman2000 revdiablo: got a pic or link?
04:17 envi^home joined #perl6
04:17 revdiablo Wolfman2000: http://rakudo.org/status
04:18 revdiablo I wonder if any of the tests I wrote for pugs are still in there. =)
04:19 Wolfman2000 alright...looks like I'm waiting 40 minutes before checking
04:20 Wolfman2000 Hmm...is there no color for tests that are expected to fail, but pass anyway?
04:20 revdiablo Wolfman2000: btw, you can create another window in your screen session with C-a C, then bounce between them with C-a C-a
04:20 Wolfman2000 Next thing I need to learn about screen: how to keep my colors.
04:20 revdiablo I mean C-a c
04:21 Wolfman2000 revdiablo: C-a C-a seemed to work
04:21 Wolfman2000 ...oh, I see what you meant
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04:29 Wolfman2000 TimToady: is it possible to make the core ops file...well, many smaller files?
04:30 Wolfman2000 or at least, is there some way to identify if my box is being thrashed?
04:30 Wolfman2000 I can take down my websites for a few hours if need be.
04:32 TimToady you'd have to ask one of our other experts, like pmichaud++
04:32 pmichaud Wolfman2000: it's taking forever to compile parrot ?
04:32 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: rakudo...which uses parrot, so yes
04:33 Wolfman2000 seriously, the two of you have good timing
04:33 TimToady I paged him
04:33 TimToady I think he's asking whether it's during the Configure --gen-parrot or during the make?
04:34 pmichaud it's during the make
04:34 pmichaud if it's core_ops
04:34 pmichaud it's during parrot's make, sorry
04:34 pmichaud you're right, it's during rakudo's Configure --gen-parrot
04:34 Wolfman2000 so it's both
04:34 pmichaud what os, wolfman2000?
04:34 pmichaud (hard for me to find details in the backscroll)
04:34 Wolfman2000 Ubuntu 8.04 I believe
04:34 Wolfman2000 could be 8.10
04:34 Wolfman2000 but not any higher than that
04:34 pmichaud what processor?
04:35 pmichaud 64-bit or 32-bit?
04:35 Wolfman2000 don't recall that one offhand
04:35 pmichaud maybe "uname -a" will help
04:35 pmichaud if it says x86_64, then 64bit
04:35 Wolfman2000 long as C-z works
04:35 pmichaud if it says i386 or i686, then 32-bit
04:36 Wolfman2000 64 bit
04:36 * Wolfman2000 just made a new connection to his box
04:36 pmichaud how much memory on the system?
04:36 Wolfman2000 256MB
04:36 pmichaud oh.
04:36 pmichaud very likely that's not enough to build Parrot quickly
04:37 TimToady that's small even for 32-bit compile
04:37 pmichaud so I'm guessing thrashing
04:37 pmichaud how much swap?
04:37 Wolfman2000 unless I want to take my websites down for a few hours, I know
04:37 Wolfman2000 double
04:37 pmichaud yeah, definitely pretty small
04:37 pmichaud just a sec, there's an option that might help
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04:37 Wolfman2000 hard to argue that for $20/month, even in this bad economy
04:38 pmichaud try running Rakudo's Configure.pl again as follows
04:39 pmichaud perl Configure.pl --parrot-option='--cgoto=0' --gen-parrot
04:39 pmichaud that will probably get you there.
04:39 Wolfman2000 considering I haven't read much about Configure.pl, I'm not exactly aware of what that option did
04:39 pmichaud at least, it's much more likely.
04:39 Wolfman2000 at the very least, that new cgoto thing
04:39 pmichaud that passes an option to Parrot's build system saying "don't compile the computed goto option", which is what is taking so long
04:40 pmichaud from Parrot's Configure.pl:
04:40 pmichaud --cgoto=0            Don't build cgoto core - recommended when short of mem
04:40 Wolfman2000 ...why is there goto in Perl 6 anyway?
04:40 Wolfman2000 Or is this something I don't want to know?
04:40 pmichaud it's not in Perl 6
04:40 TimToady that's a C goto
04:40 pmichaud it's in the Parrot VM, in C
04:41 TimToady so yes, you don't want to know :)
04:41 pmichaud even I don't want to know (and I don't, really :-)
04:41 TimToady it only just occurred to me that _cg means "computed goto"
04:42 Wolfman2000 ...I wonder why I never learned of computed gotos in class
04:44 Wolfman2000 okay, on the first troubling file: core_ops_switch.c
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04:46 Wolfman2000 ...it's advanced quickly
04:46 Wolfman2000 or at least, quicker than before
04:49 Wolfman2000 now on core_ops_cg.c
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04:55 Wolfman2000 ...I think this is the big switch statement area. I will look forward to when the src/ops/* files are split up
04:55 Wolfman2000 ...wait a second...
04:57 Wolfman2000 GAH, I can't scroll up fast enough to stop screen
04:57 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: I just tried starting it again. Configure.pl complained of the parrot-option thing
04:57 pmichaud oh I had it wrong
04:57 pmichaud sorry about that
04:58 pmichaud perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot-option="--cgoto=0" --gen-parrot
04:58 pmichaud my bad
04:58 pmichaud (I forgot the --gen on --gen-parrot-option)
04:59 Wolfman2000 ...this is certainly an adventure
04:59 bpetering Wolfman2000: on what scale are you talking?
05:00 Wolfman2000 been awhile since I felt I could...just chuckle at my poor attempts at compiling code
05:00 bpetering ah :)
05:02 TimToady we all chuckle at ourselves frequently here, so you fit right in :)
05:02 Wolfman2000 here we go...on src/ops/core_ops.c
05:03 Wolfman2000 relatively quick
05:06 Wolfman2000 and...the switch file is at it again. I think parrot hates me
05:09 Wolfman2000 ...the big problem with screen is that I can't easily scroll up. so I have no clue when my history goes out of whack
05:11 * Wolfman2000 goes back to normal ssh mode to be sure he can copy and paste the output as required
05:11 Wolfman2000 ...good thing I can stay up for awhile tonight
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05:23 Wolfman2000 ...I think I'm seeing new files being compiled in now
05:23 Wolfman2000 compilers/imcc/imcparser.c <-- that's definitely new.
05:23 Wolfman2000 Perl6, I will compile you yet!
05:26 Wolfman2000 TimToady, bpetering, pmichaud, et al: parrot made
05:27 bpetering Wolfman2000: \o/
05:36 Wolfman2000 ...at this point, I'm not going to be surprised if rakudo doesn't want to make now.
05:45 Wolfman2000 off to bed now. I can mess with this in the morning...and take down some of my websites if required.
05:48 bpetering good night Wolfman2000 - again, all the best :)
05:48 pmichaud once you get past the parrot build, things tend to work.
05:48 pmichaud at least, until you get to the parts that don't.  =-)
05:49 carlin rakudo: loop { my $a = 'OH HAI' };
05:50 p6eval rakudo 74f561: TIMED_OUT
05:51 carlin In 657d55cce1f1 that's fine - the process sits at ~50MiB. As of d4f03670df0af the process slowly consumes more and more memory.
05:51 carlin (Couldn't test anything between there because it segfaults during build)
05:52 pnate2 joined #perl6
06:02 carlin so I think I'll roll back the rakudo on my server, which will hopefully stop my IRC bots from leaking memory
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07:24 Su-Shee good morning.
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07:37 moritz_ good morning
07:38 Su-Shee of course you are awake. ;)
07:42 pmichaud good morning
07:42 pmichaud and yes, it's morning here also :)
07:42 moritz_ Su-Shee: just got up ;-)
07:44 Su-Shee pmichaud: welcome to the morning shift. ;)
07:44 moritz_ pmichaud: did you change time zone? ;-)
07:44 pmichaud no
07:45 pmichaud it's just that your morning is a lot later than my morning
07:45 pmichaud or something like that
07:45 pmichaud at any rate, locally right now the hour portion of the time is less than 12h, so that officially makes it morning, I think :)
07:46 moritz_ ;-)
07:49 spinclad still erev, tho, i venture; not yet boqer
07:52 * spinclad is an hour dawnward from pmichaud
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09:12 moritz_ pmichaud, [particle]: the rakudoconsulting website still links to parrotcode.org (and has one CSS validation error)
09:16 pmichaud thanks
09:16 pmichaud particle will need to fix it
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11:18 jnthn yay snow! \o/
11:26 mathw it's just grey and damp here
11:26 mathw don't know why the cat was so keen to go outside this morning
11:26 mathw he'll have already been rained on twice
11:28 Su-Shee snow? I'm envious.
11:28 mathw better move to bratislava then
11:28 Su-Shee around the corner anyway :)
11:29 jnthn Yes, I suspect it's not all so far.
11:29 * jnthn forgets which city Su-Shee is in
11:29 jnthn mathw: It doesn't matter what the cat wants to do, just that the cat is Always Right. :-)
11:29 mathw even when he changes his mind thirty seconds later
11:30 jnthn Even then. :-)
11:30 jnthn It's amazing what cuteness does for ones always-rightness.
11:30 mathw yes and my cat is almost universally agreed to be utterly adorable
11:31 mathw he even won over my Dad, who doesn't like cats
11:31 moritz_ so the perfect source for lolcat pics? :-)
11:31 mathw class Cat does Infallible { ... }
11:32 mathw http://www.flickr.com/photos/matt​ofwalton/sets/72157621820239428/ <- judge for yourself
11:33 jnthn aww
11:34 mathw That's what everyone says!
11:34 mathw he's charmed the entire PLANET
11:34 mathw even the vet thinks he's gorgeous
11:35 mathw even there he won't stop trying to cuddle people - including the woman with the giant needle she's about to stick in him
11:36 moritz_ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattofwalt​on/4062423212/in/set-72157621820239428/ <-- nice for illustrating laziness
11:37 * jnthn is taken by the cuteness
11:40 mathw My sister kept saying 'but he's so soft and cuddly!'
11:40 mathw and then shrieking when he stuck his claws in somewhere sensitive
11:41 jnthn lol!
11:44 mathw I don't think she was quite prepared for him to jump into her lap and demand stroking
11:44 mathw fortunately he had the sense not to try that with my parents
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12:39 jnthn lolitsmasak!
12:39 masak good afternoon, #perl6.
12:39 jnthn oh hai, masak
12:40 mberends oh hai you both
12:41 masak mberends! \o/
12:42 masak mberends: I thought I'd make Tuesdays "Temporal Tuesday" during the November month.
12:42 mberends hee
12:42 masak it's not directly related to November, but it would definitely be good for Rakudo Star.
12:43 NorwayGeek_ joined #perl6
12:43 * jnthn is glad masak++ is making time for this
12:43 jnthn *cough*
12:43 masak ah. time jokes.
12:44 masak been a long time since we did those.
12:44 jnthn I'm sure I can come up with more in an instant.
12:44 jnthn And sustain them for the duraction of your hacking.
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12:54 masak jnthn: :P
12:59 takadonet morning all
13:01 FCO joined #perl6
13:03 masak takadonet: o/
13:03 takadonet how are you doing masak?
13:03 masak takadonet: I'm... well-rested today. that's good, I guess.
13:04 masak it's perhaps indicative when I get to work and people say "Ah, masak! *there* you are!"
13:04 takadonet hehe
13:04 masak takadonet: how are you?
13:06 takadonet masak: feeling sick again. Got a nice perl 'script' from another bioinformatics group that taken some time to figure how it works
13:07 masak ok.
13:07 takadonet I hate that half of the input file need to be in 'dos' format and other half in unix/linux!
13:07 takadonet stupid carriage return and line feed....
13:08 masak needs to be? why?
13:09 frettled good something :)
13:09 frettled takadonet: my sympathies, btw.
13:11 takadonet Otherwise the 'parser' will fail to read the file and crash the problem. I do not want to change too much of the script since not sure if we are ending up using it or not. Depends how well it works
13:13 jnthn heh, reminds me of a talk at the Italian Perl Workshop.
13:13 jnthn Theme was essnentially, "The data is always shit!" :-)
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13:15 takadonet you can NEVER trust data from users.
13:16 jnthn s/data from // # ;-)
13:16 cognominal what am I doing wrong with the ng branch?  /Users/stef/git/rakudo-ng/parrot_install/bin/nqp --output=src/gen/signature_pm.pir --encoding=utf8 \
13:16 cognominal --target=pir src/Perl6/Compiler/Signature.pm
13:16 cognominal make: /Users/stef/git/rakudo-ng/parrot_install/bin/nqp: No such file or directory
13:17 takadonet hehe
13:17 jnthn Failing to install nqp-rx, at first guess.
13:17 cognominal probably something in my path
13:17 cognominal *PATH
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13:31 masak anyone here speaks Japanese? :)
13:31 Su-Shee badly.
13:31 masak sounds like this Twitterer is looking for information of some kind. http://twitter.com/__gfx__/status/5379551557
13:31 masak something about 'strict constructors'?
13:31 Su-Shee oh, you want japanese _read_ ...
13:32 masak ah, yes. sorry.
13:32 masak anyone here reads Japanese? :)
13:36 hanekomu masak: a bit
13:36 hanekomu what do you need?
13:36 hanekomu ah
13:36 hanekomu that link
13:38 hanekomu can't find a description about Perl6's constructor re strict
13:38 hanekomu (not sure what "de aru koto ni tsuite" means - will look up the grammar
13:38 hanekomu but ask in irc.freenode.net #soozy, where japanese perl hackers hang out
13:40 moritz_ tsuite = test suite?
13:40 hanekomu no
13:40 hanekomu ni tsuite = about, regarding
13:40 hanekomu de aru koto = thing exists
13:40 * moritz_ very bad at guessing
13:40 hanekomu i'm asking on #soozy
13:43 hanekomu kazuho on #soozy told me: "can't find description stating that constructors are strict in perl6"
13:45 jnthn "strict"?
13:45 hanekomu no idea, i just tried to translate the thing :)
13:45 jnthn :-)
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13:46 hanekomu ah, "X de aru koto" = "being X", as, so more literally it is "Perl 6's constructor being strict - I can't find a description about it."
13:47 moritz_ maybe related to http://www.cpanforum.com/posts/7293
13:48 moritz_ so if anybody cares to answers: it is an error to set a non-existing attribute in a constructor in Perl 6
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13:49 moritz_ I don't know if that qualifies as a "strict constructor"
13:50 mathw Well it's some kind of strictness I suppose
13:50 mathw does it count as an unknown named parameter i.e. ignored?
13:51 moritz_ well, there are two things you can wrong
13:51 moritz_ the first is calling it with wrong arguments
13:51 moritz_ that still fails silently in Perl 6
13:51 hanekomu afterwards, gfx tweets http://twitter.com/__gfx__/status/5379559571
13:51 moritz_ the second is mis-spelling an attribute in a constructor
13:51 moritz_ that one is caught by Perl 6
13:52 mathw umm
13:52 mathw how is that different to wrong arguments?
13:52 hanekomu something like "strict constructors strike me as being fairly high-speed. Before long I intend to implement it in Mouse"
13:52 hanekomu (if i'm not too mistaken)
13:52 moritz_ mathw: making the error in the class itself vs. on the caller side
13:55 * mathw doesn't follow
13:57 moritz_ mathw: the main difference is that in Perl 6 you have a default constructor
13:57 masak I replied to __gfx__. http://twitter.com/carlmasak/status/5391649893
13:57 moritz_ mathw: if you have a class A { has $!quuox }; and call A.new(quuuuox => 3), this is silently ignored
13:57 masak argh, meant 'non-existent argument'.
13:58 moritz_ mathw: however if you write a custom constructor in which you try to assign to $!quuuuox, you'll get an error
13:58 masak moritz_: oh. then my reply to ___gfx__ was wrong, I guess.
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13:59 mathw moritz_: okay, yes of course. I thought that was so obvious that you were talking about something else :)
13:59 moritz_ masak: just point him to our IRC discussion in the logs
13:59 masak moritz_: nod.
13:59 moritz_ it's not something that fits in 140chars if you're new to the subject
14:00 masak he doesn't seem to be, though. :)
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14:08 masak Wolfman2000: greetings! not sure if you're awake now, but I'm currently catching up on your backlog trails. it's cool that you're showing an interest in Web.pm.
14:08 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning
14:08 masak Wolfman2000: I'm sure we can think of a way for you to help the project along. :)
14:09 Wolfman2000 masak: The website in question shouldn't involve...too much work. It's just slightly horribly outdated in terms of content though.
14:09 masak which website?
14:09 Wolfman2000 www.jasonfelds.com <-- that's the Catalyst page. View it quickly: I may be tempted to bring it down so I can actually get rakudo to build
14:09 * masak views it quickly
14:10 masak 'is For Sale' is all I get.
14:10 Wolfman2000 ...for...sale?
14:10 Wolfman2000 that's a new one
14:10 masak oh, sorry. 'felds', not 'fields'.
14:11 masak trying again.
14:11 Psyche^ joined #perl6
14:11 masak ah. here we go.
14:11 Wolfman2000 tested another page of mine that's not on catalyst: the pages load right now
14:13 masak Wolfman2000: you know, I'm looking at your cretentials and thinking that you'll fit right in here. welcome aboard! :)
14:13 Wolfman2000 My resume is more updated...on my mobile page actually
14:13 Wolfman2000 www.jasonfelds.mobi
14:13 Wolfman2000 not on Catalyst, but it works on cell phones
14:14 masak why two different URLs?
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14:14 Wolfman2000 masak: fair question. mobi is for those on mobile devices: com is for everyone else.
14:14 Wolfman2000 not all phones can do com
14:14 Wolfman2000 mobi is specifically meant for mobile devices. Not just the iphones, but the other ones
14:14 masak hm.
14:15 Wolfman2000 This is more of my web development background coming in
14:15 masak nod.
14:15 sbp I worked on CC/PP for a bit, which was supposed to make this redundant
14:15 sbp man did THAT fail...
14:16 masak Wolfman2000: I greatly prefer the style sheet on your .mobi site, for what it's worth. :)
14:16 Wolfman2000 masak: That stylesheet was copied from another stylesheet without me really thinking about it
14:16 Wolfman2000 The desktop part is a slight rush job admittedly
14:18 masak Wolfman2000: there's two of us (me and Tene) who are currently finishing up our Web.pm grant. it involves providing basic tools in Web.pm for building web applications.
14:18 masak Wolfman2000: after that, I imagine we'll be focusing on a Catalyst-like framework.
14:18 Wolfman2000 how much is Web.pm usuable in its current state?
14:19 masak Wolfman2000: it runs. let me dig out a link for you to make it concrete.
14:19 masak Wolfman2000: http://github.com/masak/druid/b​lob/master/lib/Druid/Webapp.pm
14:20 masak that's about the state of the art right now.
14:20 masak what you see on that page is quite a small program which, when run, acts as a web application.
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14:21 Wolfman2000 Something about moving others around a simple board.
14:21 Wolfman2000 If it helps, my .com is...nowhere near that complicated.
14:21 masak apart from that, there are other interesting tools on the way. database layer, html templates, and simple dispatching.
14:21 Wolfman2000 As long as I can figure out Routes.pm, I think I will have a lot covered.
14:22 masak Routes.pm in the Web.pm project?
14:22 Wolfman2000 yeah
14:22 Wolfman2000 That's the only heavy thing I'm using.
14:22 masak hm, haven't looked at that one in a while.
14:22 Wolfman2000 I like /resume versus /resume.html
14:22 masak ihrd++ wrote Routes.pm. he has prior experience with Rails.
14:22 masak maybe Catalyst too. I don't remember.
14:23 masak but he couldn't continue on the project, due to the deteriorating global economy. :/
14:23 PerlJam greeble
14:24 Wolfman2000 ...if it helps, Catalyst probably has a working implementation of Routes
14:24 Wolfman2000 so you could just borrow that code
14:24 masak aye.
14:24 masak I plan to be inspired by Catalyst a great deal.
14:24 masak I've bought the book.
14:25 masak and I have good relations with people working on Catalyst.
14:25 PerlJam Catalyst++
14:25 moritz_ I just think it takes too long to figure things out in catalyst
14:25 masak I'm also looking at a number of other frameworks, to widen my perspective.
14:25 moritz_ getting started is non-trivial
14:25 masak moritz_: nod.
14:25 masak I want simplicity.
14:25 masak I think Jifty does a better job there.
14:28 Wolfman2000 masak: in about...10 minuts, I'm going to pull some of my sites down to try to get the memory I require to compile rakudo properly
14:28 PerlJam masak: you want the python to our perl?  (Catalyst is "optimized" for customizability everywhere where as something like Jifty (or Rails) are optimized to getting things going quickly.  This seems very much like python and perl)
14:29 masak PerlJam: I want simplicity for small things and customizability for big things.
14:29 PerlJam (easy things easy, hard things possible)++
14:30 masak PerlJam: that may mean two different frameworks, but I'm hoping it means one, where the defaults are tailored towards getting started easily.
14:30 masak PerlJam: I'm facing the same sorts of issues with Web.pm in general.
14:30 Wolfman2000 I think Catalyst was meant to be one framework for all
14:30 masak oh, for sure.
14:30 mathw Catalyst does make easy things fairly easy, I thought
14:30 mathw I played with it for a while
14:32 PerlJam mathx: Rails' opinionated software gets you going quicker than Catalyst (at the expense of some customizability and some other design tradeoffs)
14:32 PerlJam er, mathw
14:32 mathw yes
14:32 mathw I played with Rails too
14:32 mathw I discovered that you can write a blog engine in 15 minutes
14:32 mathw But anything else will drive you insane
14:32 masak :)
14:33 masak I don't want that.
14:33 PerlJam mathw: anything significantly more complex you mean
14:33 PerlJam If you have need of simple database driven sites with small relationships between the tables, rails and jifty are perfect and simple
14:34 jnthn A lot of the time, that's enough, though.
14:34 Wolfman2000 My problem with a lot of blog packages...and many other packages in general...
14:34 PerlJam jnthn: yep, that's why the rails hype machine was able to take off.
14:34 Wolfman2000 I prefer Postgresql over MySQL. Not all of them support the good features of PG
14:34 jnthn The things that put me off e.g. Jifty are its dependencies and that it's too magical.
14:35 jnthn I don't *want* magic I can't understand.
14:35 jnthn Or that takes me weeks to grok.
14:36 PerlJam jnthn: Hmm.  s/jnthn/random perl user/  and s/Jifty/Perl 6 OOP/ and that might be a problem for Perl 6 too  ;)
14:36 jnthn Perl 6 OOP has magic?
14:36 moritz_ I think the basics are rather easy to grok
14:36 PerlJam jnthn: magic that might take people weeks to grok
14:36 Wolfman2000 I think Perl has more magic than we want to believe
14:37 moritz_ Wolfman2000: it has, but we try very hard to hide it :-)
14:37 jnthn It's got a bunch of sugar, but I'm not convinced the underlying model is all that bad. :-)
14:38 Wolfman2000 alright...time to see if I can take websites down properly (and hope my new 50x webpage shows)
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14:38 Wolfman2000 ...nope. wrong file
14:39 Wolfman2000 gah, what's the unix way of searching a file for a specific phrase again?
14:39 moritz_ grep word $file
14:39 Wolfman2000 moritz_: and if you don't recall the file the phrase is in?
14:39 moritz_ Wolfman2000: rgrep word $dir
14:39 moritz_ or rgrep -r word $dir
14:39 PerlJam I think you all mean "ack"  :)
14:40 mathw find $dir | xargs grep word
14:40 moritz_ or if you're a perl hacker you install 'ack' from CPAN and use that instead :-)
14:40 Wolfman2000 I need to see which file contains the phrase "502 Bad Gateway"
14:40 Wolfman2000 I don't recall if I have ack from cpan installed on here
14:41 moritz_ /usr/share/apache2/error/HTTP_BAD_GATEWAY.html.var
14:41 moritz_ on my debian box
14:41 Wolfman2000 moritz_: nginx
14:49 Wolfman2000 okay, pages are down, decent looking placeholder up.
14:49 Wolfman2000 Parrot, Rakudo...you're mine
14:50 moritz_ all ur birds r belong 2 us!
14:50 Wolfman2000 lots of memory and swap free. Let's do this
14:51 masak \o/
14:51 PerlJam Wolfman2000: Are you really on a system that is t hat starved for resources?
14:51 Wolfman2000 PerlJam: Virtual Private Server, 256 MB
14:52 PerlJam ah.
14:52 PerlJam good luck!
14:52 Wolfman2000 I used perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot-option="--cgoto=0" --gen-parrot to configure it. The computed gotos was part of the problem
14:52 Wolfman2000 now...it's just the slow waiting for something to happen
14:53 Wolfman2000 I'll assume that once Rakudo is up, I can put my websites back online without a problem
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14:55 masak Wolfman2000: I'd assume that, too.
14:55 [particle] until you try and run rakudo...
14:56 * moritz_ sends Wolfman2000 a spare 1GB ram module
14:56 [particle] then you might have problems, depending on your source.
14:56 Wolfman2000 moritz_: money would help more
14:56 Wolfman2000 [particle]: rakudo shouldn't require that much resources to run a simple website. at least...no more than double what Catalyst did
14:56 moritz_ Wolfman2000: I haven't yet met anybody with spare money :-)
14:57 moritz_ in terms of resource usage we're Less Than Awesome, I fear
14:57 Wolfman2000 How Less Than Awesome?
14:58 moritz_ 2 to 3 orders of magnitude in terms of run time
14:59 Wolfman2000 compared to Perl 5?
14:59 moritz_ yes
14:59 moritz_ at least last I measured
14:59 moritz_ since then run time improved, parsing got slower
14:59 Wolfman2000 If I remember my fuzzy math on that correctly...
14:59 Wolfman2000 If Perl 5 runs in 2 cycles, you're saying Perl 6 runs in 200 - 2000 cycles?
15:00 moritz_ yes
15:00 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:00 moritz_ good second morning pmichaud :-)
15:00 mathw oh hai pmichaud
15:00 Wolfman2000 ...the things I'm doing to help test an up and coming language
15:01 jnthn good less-likable part of the morning pmichaud :-)
15:01 mathw we've all done similar stuff
15:01 jnthn the early hours of the mroning are SO nicer :-)
15:01 mathw just remember, it's got to work right before it's really worth trying to make it go fast
15:01 Wolfman2000 Well, if anyone is willing to contribute to the "Help Wolfman get Perl 6 running while not breaking his other stuff by upgrading his virtual server" fund, donations are accepted.
15:01 Wolfman2000 mathw: Of course.
15:02 moritz_ Wolfman2000: I can give you access to a server
15:02 moritz_ Wolfman2000: where you can host your Perl 6 things
15:02 moritz_ (for free)
15:02 Wolfman2000 The Perl 6 stuff isn't ready yet. I was hoping to experiment on my own server. Still...this offer is tempting
15:03 moritz_ and that one builds parrot in less than two minutes, if properly parallelized :-)
15:03 masak mornin', pmichaud++.
15:03 Wolfman2000 /home/wolfman2000/repos/raku​do/parrot_install/bin/parrot  perl6_s1.pbc --target=pir src/gen_setting.pm > src/gen_setting.pir  <-- this seems to be the trouble file on the normal make process BTW
15:04 Wolfman2000 I'm guessing this one is also one big switch statement?
15:04 moritz_ yes, that's the slowest step
15:04 mathw Wolfman2000: It's the entire setting, in one file
15:04 moritz_ it's the builtins that are written in Perl 6
15:04 mathw so it's quite big
15:04 moritz_ I worked on splitting the compilation up
15:04 moritz_ but it was blocking on other things
15:04 mathw stubbed functions and classes wasn't it?
15:04 masak Wolfman2000: apart from the server moritz_ is offering you, there's also feather.
15:05 moritz_ stubbed types, yes
15:06 Wolfman2000 Alright, I see what feather is about
15:06 Wolfman2000 moritz_: any fancy or simple web page to make your cause?
15:06 moritz_ http://feather.perl6.nl/
15:06 * cognominal reads Test.pm. The is "export(:Default)" for each sub  is visual noise. Is it possible to declare default properties once to avoid these nasty repetitions?
15:06 moritz_ Wolfman2000: make what cause?
15:06 moritz_ cognominal: actually 'is export' is enough
15:07 Wolfman2000 http://www.perlfoundation.o​rg/perl6/index.cgi?feather  This is the...declaration, for lack of a better word. It encourages people to host Perl 6 stuff, as long as they give back.
15:07 Wolfman2000 I don't know how much I can give back honestly
15:07 moritz_ Wolfman2000: don't worry about that
15:07 masak Wolfman2000: what moritz_ said.
15:07 Wolfman2000 Especially since I'm in the process of changing career paths at thie moment
15:07 Wolfman2000 Trying to become a high school math/programming teacher
15:07 moritz_ Wolfman2000: if you tell masak "Web.pm is nice but $feature is a bit rough" you already gave back
15:07 masak Wolfman2000: I don't know if it shows, but we like you already. we plan to keep you. :)
15:08 Wolfman2000 As long as I'm able to make a career in doing what I need to do to put food on my table, fair enough.
15:08 masak Wolfman2000: if you don't have the tuits, that's fine. but it's often surprising how tuits keep showing up.
15:08 moritz_ having a constant influx of newbies who are willing to talk to us is very helpful, so that we can see what the entry hurdles are
15:09 moritz_ and how they change over time
15:09 masak nod.
15:09 Wolfman2000 The tuits? Sorry, that term is unfamiliar
15:09 moritz_ time units
15:09 moritz_ "I can't get around_to_it"
15:10 Wolfman2000 I've gained time units for this week, so I'm able to pull off something.
15:10 moritz_ short tuit
15:10 Wolfman2000 ...if this big file doesn't compile itself by the time The Price Is Right ends, I may have to look into that server of yours.
15:10 masak Wolfman2000: this is a tuit economy.
15:10 Wolfman2000 Since my website is down, and therefore my resume...who needs my email?
15:10 Wolfman2000 or even...gulp...my Facebook?
15:14 * moritz_ either reads faces or books, but not both at the same time
15:15 moritz_ Wolfman2000: http://www.mail-archive.com/perl6​-language@perl.org/msg20060.html for getting a feather account
15:15 Wolfman2000 moritz_: I'm torn between feather and yours
15:15 moritz_ if you want an account on my machine, just /msg me your desired username
15:16 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
15:16 moritz_ feather is a bit more reliable, but also a bit slower and more crowded
15:16 masak crowded in a good way. :)
15:16 moritz_ you can also use both, of course :-)
15:17 Wolfman2000 I only plan on having one website use Perl 6, not two
15:21 masak Wolfman2000: oh, so you actually plan to set up a website with Perl 6? then our paths will surely cross again soon. :)
15:22 masak Wolfman2000: what kind of website?
15:22 Wolfman2000 I want to turn my Catalyst website (simple resume + bonus stuff site) into Perl 6
15:22 Wolfman2000 it's right now down so I can attempt to compile Rakudo
15:22 Wolfman2000 ...attempt and fail at this point it seems
15:23 masak Wolfman2000: seems to me those pages are fairly static.
15:23 masak Wolfman2000: i.e. you could generate the HTML pages once (using Perl 6 if you want), and then just serve them staticly.
15:23 Wolfman2000 They use routes, a common header with browser detection, and a common footer. They were written with clean HTML, CSS, JS
15:24 masak ah, so basically HTML templates, then.
15:24 Wolfman2000 Not much more than that, no.
15:24 Wolfman2000 My main website doesn't use postgresql
15:24 masak you could take a look at Hitomi.
15:24 masak it's a Perl 6 fork of a Python-based HTML templater.
15:25 masak it works already, but it's not very well-tested.
15:25 masak I'd love it if someone gave it a go.
15:25 Wolfman2000 If I can find the webpage for hitomi, that would be useful.
15:25 Wolfman2000 Hopefully it works with 楽度
15:26 Wolfman2000 (yeah, felt like typing rakudo in kanji)
15:26 masak :)
15:26 masak it works only on 楽度 as far as I know.
15:26 masak hold on, I'll get you an URL.
15:27 masak or two.
15:27 Wolfman2000 I don't even know what rakudo means properly
15:27 masak "happy earth". "paradise".
15:28 TimToady that's the wrong "do"
15:29 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:30 TimToady that would be happy degree
15:30 Su-Shee I thought, there's more than one do to do it? ;) *scr*
15:30 masak TimToady: oh, you're right.
15:31 TimToady I'm always right, except when I'm not (yet).
15:31 masak Wolfman2000: http://github.com/masak/web/blob/​master/drafts/hitomi-example.xml http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39137 http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39351 http://github.com/masak/web/raw/m​aster/talks/yapc-eu-2009/talk.pdf
15:32 Wolfman2000 huh? there's a pl namespace?
15:32 masak Wolfman2000: there is now. :)
15:32 masak TimToady: you're right to a happy degree, perhaps. :P
15:32 Wolfman2000 Will that page work if sent with the text/html mime type, or does it have to be application/xhtml+xml?
15:33 Wolfman2000 Still...I think I like what I'm seeing with that first link
15:33 TimToady afk & # ~2hr
15:33 * Wolfman2000 goes to check the others
15:34 masak Wolfman2000: all the transforming is done server-side, if that answers your question.
15:34 masak Wolfman2000: you can output HTML.
15:34 Wolfman2000 masak: that does answer
15:35 Wolfman2000 also, I added myself to the github thing if it makes it easier to reach me
15:35 masak Wolfman2000: it does. what's the nick?
15:35 Wolfman2000 <--
15:35 masak good.
15:35 justatheory joined #perl6
15:35 masak hugme: add Wolfman2000 to proto
15:35 Wolfman2000 well, lower case w, but...still
15:35 hugme masak: github reported success, but it didn't work anyway - WTF?
15:35 masak ah.
15:35 masak hugme: add wolfman2000 to proto
15:35 * hugme hugs wolfman2000. Welcome to proto!
15:36 masak hugme: add wolfman2000 to web
15:36 hugme masak: sorry, I don't know anything about project 'web'
15:36 masak huh.
15:36 Wolfman2000 add wolfman2000 to Web.pm
15:36 Wolfman2000 hugme: add wolfman2000 to Web.pm
15:36 hugme Wolfman2000: sorry, I don't know anything about project 'Web.pm'
15:36 * masak does it manually
15:36 Wolfman2000 ...I'll bite
15:36 Wolfman2000 hugme: help
15:36 hugme Wolfman2000: (add $who to $project | list projects | show $project | hug $nickname)
15:36 jnthn hugme++ # error has WTF
15:36 Wolfman2000 hugme: list projects
15:36 hugme Wolfman2000: I know about book, json, november, nqp-rx, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte
15:37 jnthn ah, it doesn't know about web.
15:37 masak fortunately, I do.
15:37 moritz_ didn't it say that in the first place? :-)
15:37 moritz_ masak: I can add it, if you want
15:37 * masak hugs Wolfman2000. Welcome to Web.pm!
15:37 Wolfman2000 At least I confirmed it with help
15:37 masak moritz_: please do. :)
15:38 nihiliad joined #perl6
15:38 jnthn Add lolsql! Add lolsql! ;-)
15:38 jnthn akshually don't...
15:38 Wolfman2000 I've heard of sql, mysql, and postgresql
15:38 Wolfman2000 what's lolsql?
15:39 jnthn Wolfman2000: Erm. A couple of people being silly. :-)
15:39 masak Wolfman2000: http://www.aaronbassett.com/2009/i-can-haz-lolsql/
15:39 * mathw was tempted to write a LOLSQL parser
15:39 jnthn mathw: http://github.com/jnthn/lolsql
15:39 jnthn mathw: join the fun!
15:39 Wolfman2000 ...no thanks
15:40 jnthn :-)
15:40 jnthn Wolfman2000: It mostly serves as a small example of Perl 6 grammars.
15:41 jnthn Or at least, that's why I wrote the thing...
15:41 Wolfman2000 Lots of the pages you provided, masak, mention what's going on with Web.pm and Hitomi. I'm guessing there aren't a lot of example pages out there...live. That are easily viewable.
15:41 masak Wolfman2000: no. none.
15:41 masak Wolfman2000: it's very much an ongoing thing.
15:42 masak Wolfman2000: I had a Web.pm app online for a few minutes last week.
15:42 masak it kept segfaulting, though.
15:42 Wolfman2000 ah
15:42 Wolfman2000 so I shouldn't just flat out move my page and abandon the old one
15:42 masak no.
15:44 Wolfman2000 ...still, nothing wrong with a Perl 6 mirror I guess.
15:45 dj_goku joined #perl6
15:45 Wolfman2000 Especially since gen_setting.pm is STILL not done with its work
15:45 Wolfman2000 ...I said I'd give it until noon EST
15:45 Wolfman2000 Hopefully my patience won't snap until then.
15:47 masak Wolfman2000: if you get yourself a feather account, you can compile Rakudo in your homedir. it's definitely faster than that.
15:49 Wolfman2000 ...I am starting to think my slice is incapable of it
15:49 Wolfman2000 So I have two options. feather and moritz_
15:49 Wolfman2000 More community support, more obligations with feather
15:49 masak don't think of it as obligations.
15:49 Wolfman2000 faster speed, fewer tech support with moritz_
15:50 masak Wolfman2000: I'm on feather. I even have a home page :) http://feather.perl6.nl/~masak/
15:51 Wolfman2000 ...oh yeah. The other thing I forgot about shared web hosting
15:51 Wolfman2000 I have to get used to lack of server control
15:51 moritz_ I can give you a virtual host with AllowOverride All if that helps :-)
15:52 Wolfman2000 moritz_: I shouldn't need that much control.
15:52 Wolfman2000 If I'm writing in Perl, I can set up browser overrides anyway.
15:52 Wolfman2000 Either way, it will feel...different for me to go from having all control to not much.
15:54 PerlJam Wolfman2000: nearlyfreespeech.net
15:54 Wolfman2000 PerlJam: already have stuff in other languages besides PHP and Perl. Also have Python
15:55 Wolfman2000 I don't want to rewrite all of them
15:55 Wolfman2000 Plus, they all use Postgresql
15:55 Wolfman2000 thanks anyway
15:55 moritz_ moritz@ds80-237-201-115:~/rakudo$ time ( perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot && make -j 4  )
15:55 moritz_ ...
15:55 moritz_ real    5m2.716s
15:55 moritz_ that's a full rakudo rebuild after git clean -xdf :-)
15:56 moritz_ much faster if you can parallelize the parrot build
15:56 Wolfman2000 I should have 2 cores at least
15:56 Wolfman2000 Either way...it's all on that big file
15:57 moritz_ yes, that's the largest bottleneck
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16:17 Juerd Wolfman2000: feather accounts come without obligations
16:17 Wolfman2000 Modules and programs written in Perl 6 can also have their home on feather, if their authors work with the Perl 6 community to report and resolve bugs.
16:17 Wolfman2000 That's the obligation I'm seeing.
16:18 Wolfman2000 ...wait, I'm doing that already anyway
16:19 Juerd That's everyone's default mode of operation, isn't it?
16:19 masak exactly.
16:19 Wolfman2000 Alright, point
16:19 masak Wolfman2000: there's no need to go looking for obligations.
16:19 masak they will find you. :)
16:19 Juerd hehe
16:20 Wolfman2000 Jason Felds. jafelds@gmail.com I hope to eventually bring one of my websites to Perl 6...that, and I have some personal redemption to take care of. Even my little bits of help will go to that goal.
16:20 Juerd If that doesn't encourage you, nothing can ;)
16:20 Wolfman2000 I believe that's the information you require.
16:21 Juerd Wolfman2000: mail it please
16:21 Juerd include preferred login nawe
16:21 Juerd name
16:21 moritz_ that way it gets into Juerd's all-encompassing ticket system :-)
16:21 Juerd haha
16:21 Wolfman2000 I would need to know your email. All the page says is to request an account by e-mail to Juerd. Don't see an email address.
16:21 envi^home joined #perl6
16:21 Juerd unread=todo
16:22 nbrown04 joined #perl6
16:22 Juerd That's the system
16:23 Juerd Wolfman2000: that's the captcha/turing test of feather
16:23 Wolfman2000 Juerd: sorry, didn't fully understand that.
16:24 Wolfman2000 I'll just register myself to the perl foundation first
16:24 moritz_ Wolfman2000: you know Juerd's nickname. You know a host he owns. Try to combine that to an email address
16:24 am0c joined #perl6
16:24 Wolfman2000 ...oh
16:25 Juerd see it as a minor challenge, to find my mail address, to prove your worthiness ;)
16:25 Juerd actually feather email is probably broken
16:26 Juerd so try juerd.nl :)
16:26 Wolfman2000 well, I just sent an email to what I think is your address
16:27 Wolfman2000 ...and I failed
16:27 sbp wow, esperanto
16:27 Wolfman2000 It's not Juerd@perlfoundation.org
16:27 moritz_ Wolfman2000: $nickname at $nickname.nl
16:28 Wolfman2000 Trying again
16:28 Wolfman2000 I never remember if email addresses are case sensitive or not
16:28 Juerd they're not
16:29 Wolfman2000 ...no mail delivery failure message yet
16:29 Wolfman2000 I think I did it right
16:29 sbp phenny: "Maar ik hoor 'm wel liever dan m'n officiële naam, die ik nauwelijks nog gebruik."?
16:29 phenny sbp: "But I hear him do better than my official name, which I hardly use." (nl to en, translate.google.com)
16:29 Juerd yay!
16:30 Wolfman2000 looks like you got it then
16:30 Juerd that's not esperanto
16:30 Juerd Wolfman2000: let's see
16:31 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
16:31 nbrown04 joined #perl6
16:31 Juerd working on my mobile phone so everything is slow
16:32 nbrown04 joined #perl6
16:32 Wolfman2000 long as the email got there, then I ddi what I was supposed to
16:32 masak phenny: "Sed mi aŭdas ke li fartas pli bone ol mia oficiala nomo, kiun mi apenaŭ uzas."?
16:32 phenny masak: The eo to en translation failed, sorry!
16:32 masak phenny: at least you tried. :)
16:38 Wolfman2000 alright, I'm in feather.
16:38 Juerd ssh on a phone keyboard sucks but i created Wolfman2000 an account
16:38 jnthn masak: What language? :-)
16:38 Wolfman2000 I just got in with the first name you gave me
16:39 masak jnthn: Esperanto.
16:39 jnthn masak: Ah, ok.
16:39 masak jnthn: I'm surprised phenny detected even that.
16:39 jnthn Shoulda guessed. :-)
16:39 masak didn't expect her to succeed in translating it.
16:40 Wolfman2000 ...I don't think feather likes me trying to do unicode on nano
16:40 Wolfman2000 I wanted to put in the square root symbol in for prefix testing
16:41 Juerd welcome on board, Wolfman2000++
16:41 Wolfman2000 √ <-- when I try to put that in, it prints as ?^?^?
16:41 Juerd Wolfman2000: set LANG
16:41 Juerd ie your locale
16:41 Wolfman2000 right...how do I set that permamently again? I think I need to set it to en.utf8 or something like that
16:42 Juerd eg en_US.UTF-8
16:43 Wolfman2000 put LANG in my profile, source'd it, nano still hates me
16:43 masak export LANG
16:43 Wolfman2000 ...right, forgot that step
16:43 Juerd echo export LANG=en_US.UTF-8>>$HOME/.bashrc
16:44 Juerd found a limitation of this on screen touch keyboard: no tilde
16:45 Su-Shee not LANG. you need LC_CTYPE.
16:45 Juerd ~~~~~~ oh there it is
16:45 Wolfman2000 Seems like I need a lot
16:45 Juerd Su-Shee: LANG suffices
16:46 Wolfman2000 LANG is not sufficing for me
16:46 carlin_ joined #perl6
16:46 carlin_ left #perl6
16:46 Juerd Wolfman2000: run .bashrc after adding to it
16:46 Su-Shee Juerd: LANG sets only messages and menus and stuff like that on my system. CTYPE is what I need and if I want sorting, I need COLLATE
16:46 abra joined #perl6
16:47 Wolfman2000 Juerd: permission denied
16:47 Juerd Su-Shee: current objective is getting utf8 support. LANG fixes that
16:48 Juerd Wolfman2000: . .bashrc
16:48 Wolfman2000 I know that
16:48 Wolfman2000 I was told permission denied
16:48 Juerd not ./
16:48 Wolfman2000 ...oh
16:48 Wolfman2000 huh
16:48 Su-Shee Juerd: yes, I'm talking about the same thing and LANG is just _one_ element of possible locale settings.
16:49 Wolfman2000 Su-Shee is correct: LANG is not enough, even after running . .bashrc
16:49 Juerd sorry. i should have said 'source', not 'run'
16:50 Su-Shee Wolfman2000: check first with locale -a what you actually got.
16:50 Juerd Su-Shee: I've never explicitly set any LC_ yet I get full utf8 everywhere
16:50 Wolfman2000 ...it's utf8, not UTF8
16:50 Juerd isn't ctype implied by lang?
16:51 Su-Shee no.
16:51 Su-Shee LANG is the "weakest" of all settings.
16:51 Juerd Wolfman2000: iirc it is UTF-8 with capitals and hyphen
16:51 Su-Shee Wolfman2000: export LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
16:52 Juerd I could be mistaken of course
16:52 Wolfman2000 Juerd: according to the list, it's en_US.utf8, not en_US.UTF-8
16:52 Juerd okay
16:52 Su-Shee Juerd: depends on your system, check with locale -a
16:52 Wolfman2000 I got it workign now
16:53 Su-Shee I usally generate both versions, because who knows what needs which setting.
16:53 Su-Shee Wolfman2000: you should COLLATE as well and maybe NUMERIC
16:53 Juerd Weird. nl_NL.UTF-8 works for me
16:54 Juerd and setting lang apparently did also get me that ctype
16:55 Wolfman2000 ...do I have to compile Rakudo on my feather box first before using it? I just got an error while testing my √ prefix
16:55 Wolfman2000 perl6: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so.0.9.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
16:55 p6eval elf 28978: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/vuzzsW15ZI␤panic at line 1 column 50 (pos 50): Statement not terminated properly␤WHERE: shared libraries: libparrot.so.0.9.1: cannot open shared obj␤WHERE:                              /\<-- HERE␤  STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤  STD_red/std.rb:355:in
16:55 p6eval ..`eat_t…
16:55 p6eval ..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤    Unexpected "0"␤    expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", "^", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript␤    at /tmp/bNaxYhu3ya line 1, column 52␤»
16:55 p6eval ..rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«Confused at line 2, near ": libparro"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
16:55 Wolfman2000 ...
16:55 Juerd lol
16:55 Juerd rakudo: say 'hi'
16:55 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«hi␤»
16:56 Wolfman2000 This will take awhile.
16:56 Wolfman2000 ~jafelds/sqrt.pl contains what I'm after. I should have it set up decently...I think.
16:57 Wolfman2000 I guess the big question...am I doing something wrong with it?
16:58 Juerd gotta go
16:58 Juerd ttyl
16:58 Wolfman2000 *nods*
16:58 moritz_ Wolfman2000: yes, you have to compile locally...
16:58 moritz_ Wolfman2000: the error message indicates an ancient rakudo version
16:59 Wolfman2000 I guess I should try git and make again?
17:00 moritz_ aye
17:00 Wolfman2000 ...well, may as well reactivate my websites right now
17:02 Wolfman2000 alright, pages back up
17:03 Wolfman2000 I wonder if I should skip the make install step when I get there
17:03 h1rschnase joined #perl6
17:05 moritz_ no, you shouldn't
17:05 moritz_ make install installs into $your_rakudo_dir/parrot_install/
17:05 pmurias joined #perl6
17:05 moritz_ and then you just add $your_rakudo_dir/parrot_install/bin/perl6 ot your path, and be happy
17:06 Wolfman2000 ...so it's alright to make install? Wait...I don't even know my sudo
17:07 moritz_ you don't need sudo for that
17:07 moritz_ it's in your home where it will be installed
17:07 Wolfman2000 Funny, I didn't tell it where to PUT the files on make install. It will...just work?
17:08 moritz_ yes
17:08 moritz_ it defaults to the same dir where your parrot_config binary is
17:08 moritz_ and that's iinstalled locally by Configure --gen-parrot
17:10 hicx174 joined #perl6
17:11 Wolfman2000 alright...let me wait for the spec test to get done first, then I'll try to contribute more math prefix and postfix stuff before I have to do real life things
17:11 Wolfman2000 I wonder if my directory is visible to others
17:15 fax joined #perl6
17:15 masak Wolfman2000: I'm in ur directory. sqrp.pl
17:15 masak er, sqrt.pl
17:15 Wolfman2000 I couldn't run the file due to my compiling of rakudo right now
17:16 Wolfman2000 I plan on making mini files like this right now until I feel ready to try using Web.pm
17:16 masak Wolfman2000: good plan.
17:16 masak Wolfman2000: it runs fine here.
17:16 masak √25 = 5
17:16 Wolfman2000 so we can all access each other's files
17:16 masak aye.
17:16 Wolfman2000 I will keep that in mind and don't bring in my database websites over to the server
17:16 masak :)
17:17 masak I wouldn't do anything production-critical on feather. or with Perl 6, for that matter.
17:17 masak at least not without some kind of fallback.
17:17 Wolfman2000 masak: My main websites are back up on my original host
17:17 Wolfman2000 This will allow me to experiment for awhile
17:19 masak carlin: ping
17:23 hicx174 joined #perl6
17:24 masak is there any way to say "I don't want this method to be overridden" in Perl 6? like 'final' on methods in Java.
17:25 moritz_ there used to be a 'final' pragma or something
17:25 moritz_ but all in all it doesn't really make sense
17:25 Wolfman2000 the spectest has failed, BTW
17:26 moritz_ except maybe for optimization that will fire backwards somme day
17:26 masak Wolfman2000: it sometimes does. can you nopaste the summary somewhere?
17:26 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "spectest on feather" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89733
17:26 moritz_ hugme: reload data
17:26 hugme moritz_: reloaded successfully
17:26 masak moritz_: I'm pretty sure I read a good argument for 'final' on methods once. don't remember it offhand, though.
17:27 moritz_ masak: you can always bypass the 'final' by a proxy object
17:27 masak moritz_: I guess...
17:27 masak maybe Perl is too liberal for 'final' to make sense.
17:28 masak Wolfman2000: some of those look like segfaults. IO::Socket::INET is ever problematic (in the spectest suite). sinh.t I don't think I've seen before.
17:28 moritz_ sinh.t is probably a segfault or resource problem
17:29 moritz_ unicode.t is known
17:29 Wolfman2000 and make install...just worked
17:29 KyleHa I see those big trig test files bomb every so often.
17:29 Wolfman2000 just have to set the path to that and I'm good. got it
17:29 moritz_ the junction tests where changed recently, and I haven't got around to fix them up again
17:29 moritz_ hugme: list projects
17:29 hugme moritz_: I know about book, hugme, json, november, nqp-rx, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
17:30 jaffa8 joined #perl6
17:30 Wolfman2000 yay, my program works
17:30 masak \o/
17:31 moritz_ next step: world domination
17:31 Wolfman2000 <M Bison> OF COURSE!
17:31 Wolfman2000 ...sorry: like Nostalgia Critic a little much there
17:35 masak rakudo: class A { sub foo() { say "OH HAI" } }; class B { has B $!b handles <foo>; method bar { foo } }; B.new.bar
17:35 p6eval rakudo 74f561: TIMED_OUT
17:36 masak here it says "Could not find non-existent sub foo".
17:36 masak should that work?
17:36 jnthn masak: Did you meant "has A $!b" ?
17:37 masak oops. yes.
17:37 KyleHa Yeah, what jnthn++ said.
17:37 masak same result, though.
17:38 KyleHa Wouldn't $!b have to get initialized with an A.new somewhere?
17:40 masak KyleHa: even when it isn't, it contains the A type object.
17:41 masak rakudo: class A { sub foo() { say "OH HAI" } }; class B { has A $!a handles <foo> = A.new; method bar { foo } }; B.new.bar
17:41 linguini joined #perl6
17:41 masak still the same result locally. no such sub.
17:41 p6eval rakudo 74f561: TIMED_OUT
17:42 moritz_ shouldn't it complain that it can't find *method* foo?
17:42 masak no, because I'm calling the sub.
17:43 masak my question boils down to "does 'handles' concern itself with subs?"
17:43 moritz_ in my understanding 'handles' is for methods
17:43 Wolfman2000 I think I can see why perl6 requires more power.
17:43 moritz_ masak: somehow your code doesn't make sense to me
17:43 masak moritz_: what about submethods?
17:43 Wolfman2000 Hmm...what's the proper type of "fix" for a standalone character? Something similar to the standalone +?
17:44 jnthn masak: no no no no
17:44 jnthn masak: $.foo
17:44 moritz_ masak: it just does a normal dispatch
17:44 jnthn There *is* no foo sub.
17:44 masak jnthn: there is, in A.
17:44 moritz_ but you're calling a sub foo in B
17:44 jnthn oh wtf
17:44 masak moritz_: yes. I was wondering whether 'handles' could do that.
17:44 jnthn I read masak's code as what I thought it was meant to do.
17:44 jnthn masak: No, it won't.
17:45 moritz_ masak: it can't
17:45 moritz_ jnthn: me too
17:45 jnthn It shouldn't.
17:45 moritz_ ;-)
17:45 masak :)
17:45 jnthn :-)
17:45 masak Wolfman2000: I don't understand your question.
17:45 * moritz_ thinks masak++ wants to import things from A, not delegate
17:45 masak moritz_: yes, how do I do that?
17:45 moritz_ masak: in Rakudo, or in Perl 6? ;-)
17:45 Wolfman2000 ½ = 0.5. I want ½ as its own operator so to speak, and have that automatically converted to 1.0 / 2
17:46 masak moritz_: in Rakudo.
17:46 Wolfman2000 I thought infix would work...probably did something wrong
17:46 masak Wolfman2000: sounds like a term to me.
17:46 moritz_ Wolfman2000: no, you'd have to define it as a constant, which only works for identifiers
17:46 moritz_ Wolfman2000: or as a term, which is not yet implemented
17:46 Wolfman2000 so we haven't hit that point yet. got it
17:47 moritz_ rakudo: class A { sub foo { say 'bar' } }; class B { my &foo := &A::foo; method t { foo() } }; B.new.t
17:47 p6eval rakudo 74f561: TIMED_OUT
17:48 moritz_ doesn't work :(
17:50 Wolfman2000 alright, most of my working math pl files are in feather/jafelds/math
17:50 Wolfman2000 Not too much in there right now, but...it's a start
17:50 moritz_ masak: sub foo(*@_, *%_) { A::foo(|@_, |%_) } # SCNR
17:53 masak moritz_: :)
17:54 barney joined #perl6
17:54 moritz_ I'm sure you'll also find a "solution' involving eval() ;-)
17:55 masak indubitably.
17:55 moritz_ "eval -- it's Turing complete"
17:56 dukeleto moritz_: good tshirt idea :)
17:57 moritz_ dukeleto: indeed ;-)
17:57 KyleHa Every program should start with:  eval q{
17:57 stephenlb joined #perl6
17:57 KyleHa There'd be no more death!
17:57 moritz_ KyleHa: or with 'use Inline::PERL;'
17:57 moritz_ KyleHa: for those dubious PERL programmers out there
17:57 Wolfman2000 bah, my attempt at infixing failed
17:58 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Infix failure." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89735
17:58 moritz_ rakudo: multi sub infix:<^>(Num $x, Num $y) { $x**$y }; say "10^2 = {10^2}"
17:59 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«push_pmc() not implemented in class 'Sub'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
17:59 cdarroch joined #perl6
17:59 moritz_ Wolfman2000: presumably infix:<^> isn't overloadable yet :(
17:59 KyleHa "Your Inline::Perl program will run slowly the first few times that you run it. After that you will get used to it."  Har.
17:59 moritz_ must be moved to the setting to wrok
17:59 Wolfman2000 Does ^ already have a function I'm forgetting?
17:59 * moritz_ has to leave for a table tennis match, TTFN folks
17:59 moritz_ Wolfman2000: it constructs a junction
17:59 moritz_ rakudo: say (3^5).WHAT
17:59 TimToady an XOR junciton
17:59 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«Junction()␤»
18:00 TimToady *tion
18:01 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say 3^5
18:01 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«one(3, 5)␤»
18:01 Wolfman2000 ...unfortunately, I don't recall reading what junctions are
18:02 Wolfman2000 Hmm...I need a reminder
18:02 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say 5 / 2
18:02 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«2.5␤»
18:02 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say 5 // 2
18:02 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«5␤»
18:03 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (//).WHAT
18:03 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«say requires an argument at line 2, near " (//).WHAT"␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 2593)␤»
18:03 Wolfman2000 so // is an error?
18:03 TimToady std: say (//).WHAT
18:03 p6eval std 28978: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Null regex not allowed at /tmp/juFzoLXOOq line 1:␤------> [32msay (//[33m⏏[31m).WHAT[0m␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤»
18:03 TimToady STD will usually give you a better error message
18:03 TimToady but only for syntax errors
18:03 Wolfman2000 ...I wasn't trying to use regex
18:04 TimToady well, but / where a term is expected is always a regex in Perl
18:04 Wolfman2000 Just trying to do integer division
18:04 Wolfman2000 similar to how Python does it
18:04 TimToady rakudo: say 5 div 2
18:04 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«2␤»
18:04 Wolfman2000 ...
18:04 Wolfman2000 nevermind
18:06 Wolfman2000 ...right, I never understood that. There is a separate symbol for the minus sign
18:06 TimToady in p6 // is like ||, but tests for defined instead of true
18:06 TimToady (which got borrowed back to 5.10 to)
18:07 TimToady *too
18:11 TimToady masak: re "final", see S12:1814
18:13 xp_prg joined #perl6
18:13 frettled That's one of my favourite enhancements in P6.
18:13 Wolfman2000 I have to get into the real life now. Hopefully I can mess with more of P6 later.
18:13 akl joined #perl6
18:13 Wolfman2000 Look in my feather account to see what I've gotten in there.
18:21 masak TimToady: so finality works on a class level, not on a method level?
18:22 Wolfman2000 .away
18:22 Wolfman2000 err
18:22 masak Wolfman2000: whoa, you've been productive!
18:22 Wolfman2000 hard to tell if those mini fixes are productive or not
18:22 Wolfman2000 unsure how many of them are useful to the public
18:23 Wolfman2000 the only one that doesn't work right now is half.pl
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18:24 masak Wolfman2000: that's because ½ is not an infix operator.
18:24 Wolfman2000 it's a term, and terms can't be defined
18:24 Wolfman2000 yet
18:24 masak right.
18:25 Wolfman2000 I'll get this at some point
18:25 Wolfman2000 for now, *AWAY*
18:25 masak o/
18:25 TimToady std: sub term:<½> () {...}; ½ + ½
18:25 p6eval std 28978: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 124m␤»
18:27 masak someone should write an implementation that can do all the cool things STD.pm can do :)
18:27 zaslon lolpmichaudhazblogged! pmichaud++ 'A brief report on progress': http://use.perl.org/~pmich​aud/journal/39834?from=rss
18:28 TimToady masak: yes, well, non-finality is about classes.  the optimizer can do what it likes on the method level for any class that is required to be non-final
18:28 TimToady *that is not required
18:29 TimToady and most of the things you might want final methods for are really infrastructural, and therefore the proper domain of submethods
18:30 masak ah, true.
18:30 masak that's probably the answer to the question that I couldn't phrase.
18:30 TimToady and our classes are "open", but that doesn't mean we don't have final classes, which we call "roles"  :)
18:31 pmichaud btw, jnthn, I think that the new parcel and list stuff means that multiple return value semantics fall out naturally
18:31 TimToady s/final/closed/
18:31 masak pmichaud++ # blog post
18:32 masak food &
18:33 jnthn pmichaud: Me too
18:33 TimToady doesn't seem to have shown up on planetsix yet
18:33 r0bby_ joined #perl6
18:33 jnthn pmichaud: I didn't want to make it sound like part of my grant was now a no-op though. :-P
18:33 jnthn Well, OK, extracting the design from TimToady++'s brain counts as effort I guess. :-)
18:33 pmichaud jnthn: you've more than made up for it in other are.... oh, wait, I'm the grant manager.  "Yes, that's a no-op now.  You have to do some additional work to make up for it."  :-)
18:34 pmichaud oops
18:34 pmichaud you're right, you're the person who successfully extracted the needed details from TimToady.  That's an accomplishment.  :)
18:34 jnthn ;-)
18:34 pmichaud anyway, I think "done."
18:34 pmichaud well, as soon as we demonstrate that it works :)
18:35 jnthn Yay.
18:35 jnthn \o/
18:37 abra joined #perl6
18:40 PerlJam anyone happen to know how to enable cookies in FF 3.5.4 ?
18:42 justatheory joined #perl6
18:43 awwaiid They're not enabled by default for you?
18:43 PerlJam nope
18:45 awwaiid Well some prefs are in: Edit->Preferences->Privacy-> set "use custom settings for history" -> check "accept cookies"
18:46 awwaiid or you can go to "about:config", search for "cookie", and then change some settings at random.
18:46 awwaiid But I just upgraded from FF 3.0 and then 3.5 -> 3.5.4, and cookies were enabled the whole way. So maybe something else is wrong :)
18:47 Morpheus` joined #perl6
18:48 PerlJam looks like a buglet.   The "accept cookies" box was already checked, but until I viewed the checkbox and closed the prefs window, it wouldn't accept cookies from anywhere.
18:48 frettled There are no errors but user errors.  However, it varies who the user is.
18:51 frettled Argh.  I get so frustrated with Blogger/Blogspot sometimes; I started writing a blog post yesterday evening, but didn't finish it, so I saved it for later.
18:52 frettled I then edited it this afternoon, published it, and lo and behold: it's posted with yesterday's date.  *growl*
18:52 frettled Fortunately, I can fixify the date after the fact, but that may mess up people's RSS subscriptions.
18:52 frettled Today's frustration was sponsored by Google.  :)
18:56 frettled pmichaud++ - my oh my how you've been busy!
18:57 frettled Reading the summary, I get the distinct impression that you're at the SMOP stage.  :D
18:58 PerlJam He's not implementing anything in C and he's got much more implemented than SMOP
18:58 PerlJam *rimshot*   :-)
18:59 PerlJam okay, it was weak and vague and only makes sense to very few people, but I'm one of those people, so it made me smile a little and that's all that matters  :)
19:00 * jnthn -> store, ENEEDFOOD
19:01 frettled PerlJam: hee-hee :)
19:13 h1rschnase joined #perl6
19:14 FCO joined #perl6
19:18 cognominal plumage?
19:19 cognominal purl answered me :)
19:20 Morpheus joined #perl6
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20:34 crythias has anyone done any Win32::Ole perl?
20:35 crythias I just started working on it with Microsoft MapPoint...
20:37 mberends a colleague who does not use irc has written some Excel automation using Win32::Ole
20:38 aufrank joined #perl6
20:38 aufrank Hi all!
20:39 aufrank I just saw pmichaud++'s gist comparing NQP to JSON and had to come ask what's going on with that example
20:39 obra_ crythias: you probably #perl
20:39 pmichaud we're just looking at alternate serialization formats for Parrot's PAST output format
20:40 pmichaud lots of people have been asking about a yaml-based version, we thought we might try json as a simpler first step
20:41 aufrank I see.  And is a declaration of &infix:<+> really embedded within a declaration of &say?  What would that even do?
20:41 pmichaud those are ast representations of calls
20:41 pmichaud call &infix<+>, pass the result to &say
20:41 aufrank ah
20:41 pmichaud i.e., it's the PAST representation of   say($a + 1)
20:42 aufrank thx
20:44 aufrank I've really enjoyed observing as the pace of development has increased in the past couple of weeks.  You folks are doing great.
20:47 Su-Shee left #perl6
20:47 pmurias pmichaud: wouldn't it be harder to serialize to a simpler structure, json can't serialise cyc
20:47 pmurias pmichaud: wouldn't it be harder to serialize to a simpler structure, json can't serialise cycStąd nk=0k(x)1 .
20:48 pmurias sorry
20:48 pmichaud pmurias: we're just playing at the moment
20:48 pmurias * serialize cyclic datastructures
20:48 pmichaud pmurias: it's not intended for anything "real"
20:48 pmurias json is yaml
20:48 pmichaud yes, true.
20:49 masak joined #perl6
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20:57 crythias ah. yes. sorry.
20:58 masak mberends: Temporal time! :)
20:58 mberends ooh!
20:58 masak mberends: I'll do this publicly, in a branch in a Rakudo fork.
20:59 mberends the old temporal-flux one?
20:59 masak might as well.
20:59 masak unless it's easier to delete that one and rebranch.
21:01 mberends dunno, git can be surprising in tasks like that
21:01 masak nod.
21:02 icwiener joined #perl6
21:03 masak moritz_: ping.
21:03 * mberends is watching a BBC programme about black holes
21:04 masak mberends: they're a fascinating subject. it's easy to get sucked in.
21:04 * mberends did
21:04 masak :)
21:04 masak I'm still a bit surprised that I understand the concept of Hawking radiation.
21:05 sjohnson Q: are \b for backspace / word boundary (in p5) separated in Perl 6?
21:05 masak sjohnson: when does \b mean backspace?
21:06 sjohnson masak: according to P5 camel book
21:06 masak sjohnson: not saying you're wrong, just asking.
21:06 masak I've never used \b in that sense myself.
21:07 masak sjohnson: I don't see \b in perldoc perlop, for example.
21:07 masak sjohnson: belay that; it's because I'm blind.
21:07 * sjohnson hands masak a cloth for his glasses ;)
21:07 masak thanks.
21:08 masak sjohnson: I guess the answer is the same for P6 as for P5, then: \b means backspace in strings, and word boundary in regexes. :)
21:08 masak either that, or the former meaning got an early retirement in Perl 6. I don't know.
21:08 masak rakudo: say "OH HA\bI"
21:08 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
21:08 masak no, there it is.
21:11 sjohnson i believe it also means backspace in regex's too
21:11 sjohnson Camel book p161
21:12 masak sjohnson: no camel book on my shelf; sorry.
21:12 sjohnson \b is under the table "Regex Metasymbols" twice :[
21:12 masak sjohnson: but you might be right -- it might mean it in char classes, for example.
21:12 masak just a guess.
21:12 sjohnson masak: to see the behaviour in P6, should i consult / dig thru the S## sheets?
21:13 masak sjohnson: S05.
21:13 sjohnson thanks!
21:13 masak but playing with p6eval might be just as profitable.
21:13 masak rakudo: say "\b" ~~ s/<[\b]>/
21:13 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«s/// not implemented, try .subst as workaround at line 2, near ""␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
21:13 masak um.
21:13 masak rakudo: say "\b" ~~ /<[\b]>/
21:13 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«␤»
21:13 frettled lolitsmasak :D
21:14 masak lolitsfrettled \o/
21:14 sjohnson masak: it's changed in p6
21:14 masak ugh. doing two parallel builds of Rakudo slows down my computer. don't try this at home.
21:15 frettled masak: evidently, you need a better computer.
21:15 masak I doubt it.
21:15 frettled «Here's a nickel, kid, get yourself a better computer.»  (STR)
21:15 masak :P
21:17 masak mberends: actually, there's no temporal-flux branch in the rakudo repo. and thinking about it, I feel like a branch in a fork might be overkill. I'll just work in master, unless I'm trying out something experimental.
21:18 mberends initially it's pimped up constructors, right?
21:20 * mberends was just yanked back from the event horiz^W^W^W dozing off
21:20 Wolfman2000 joined #perl6
21:20 masak right. a perfect job for TDD, actually. :)
21:20 Wolfman2000 ...alright, you guys couldn't keep me away
21:21 frettled Dozing off is a perfect job for me.
21:21 frettled That, and inane blogging.
21:22 mberends frettled: you made blogging an S&M art form
21:22 masak mberends: I also killed off TimeRange in temporal-flux-perl6syn.
21:23 mberends as overkill for a foundation layer?
21:23 masak as reinventing the wheel when a range of DateTime would do the trick.
21:23 masak and I want to express my slight dissatisfaction that the most common class in the whole hierarchy is called Gregorian::DateTime. Huffman cries in his grave.
21:24 frettled mberends: thank you, I think
21:25 frettled masak: It looks like there is room for some improvement in naming, yeah
21:25 mberends masak: Huffman would have called it Cal or something like that
21:25 frettled sorry for not being overly involved in this work, life's been way too busy, but at least you guys get useful stuff done :)
21:25 masak mberends: I've proposed Time before. even DateTime would be fine by me.
21:26 frettled I like Time because it's short, to the point, and covers it all.  mberends likes DateTime for other reasons.  ;)
21:26 masak mberends: having the Gregorian:: prefix there feels very correct, in the sense the Java time classes are correct.
21:26 justatheory joined #perl6
21:27 mberends it's understandable to avoid being Gregorian-centric, when StarDate might be adopted as the standard during the lifetime of Perl 6
21:27 frettled Oooh, cool feature on a wish list near you: automatic class expansion if there are no name space collisions.
21:27 masak mberends: yes, but must avoiding being Gregorian-centric amount to being long-winded?
21:28 masak frettled: enums already do that, in a sense.
21:28 mberends no, a brief label would be so much better
21:28 justatheory joined #perl6
21:28 frettled Example: Let's say we have the two modules Gregorian::DateTime and Granny::Weatherwax.  Because there are no other modules with similar names, you can simplify to Gr::DT and Gr::W
21:28 masak frettled: as long as it doesn't lead to some horrible action-at-a-distance, I would be fine with it.
21:29 masak oh, belay that. I just read your clarification.
21:29 frettled Ideally, Gre::DT and Gra::W
21:29 masak no please no.
21:29 frettled >:->
21:29 masak frettled: you'll just have to do it as a module like everybody else. :P
21:29 mberends the 'use' spec (S11) allows for abbreviated aliases
21:30 frettled My goodness, Perl 6 is becoming the EMACS of programming languages!  ;)
21:31 frettled In other words: every feature you ever think of is already there.
21:31 Wolfman2000 frettled: I can't override infix operations yet. :(
21:32 frettled Wolfman2000: it's probably on the ToDo list, then.
21:33 stephenlb joined #perl6
21:34 mberends frettled: What's the date? Some date without a time. What's the time? Some time without a date. It's intuitive to keep those separate.
21:34 frettled mberends: except that «time» is the concept of, well, time.
21:35 frettled mberends: «time of day» is the one that's without specific meaning without a date
21:35 frettled «Time» is the all-encompassing thing, the fourth dimension in spacetime.
21:36 mberends frettled: sure, but what we commonly call stuff is as simple as possible
21:36 frettled And no, I don't think we need a SpaceTime class, although that would be kindof cool.
21:36 frettled mberends: yes, and using «Time» would make it simpler than «DateTime»
21:37 frettled Time of day, if that should be subclassed somehow, could be e.g. Time::TimeOfDay, Time::TOD, or somesuch.
21:38 mberends that needs more Huffman contraction, being very frequently used
21:39 frettled Then perhaps it shouldn't be subclassed, but rather be methods in the Time class.  Subclassing only for specific features which are less frequently used.
21:40 mberends right. keep it simple as far as possible
21:40 frettled If there is a strftime method, for instance, that clearly belongs to the parent class.
21:40 masak here's how Ruby does it. http://ruby-doc.org/core/classes/Time.html
21:40 masak discuss.
21:41 frettled Well, from a brief glance, Ruby's approach seems sensible enough.
21:42 frettled However, I don't see anything about localization.
21:42 masak frettled: ZoneOffset?
21:42 frettled Nopes.
21:42 frettled Localization also implies translations of month names, day names, abbreviations, standard formatting etc.
21:43 masak ah.
21:43 mberends strftime() was always my favourite. duct tape :)
21:43 frettled Leaning on the operating system's libraries may be a very good idea.
21:43 frettled mberends: yeah, I like that one, too.
21:44 arnsholt frettled: Might result in the same function differing across platforms though
21:44 hudnix joined #perl6
21:44 masak my plan is to use one day a week during November to put together a temporal-flux proposal that p6l can't affort to refuse.
21:44 frettled arnsholt: Yes, but that's life.
21:45 frettled arnsholt: There's always going to be a lot of things that are platform specific.  I don't know which is worse; implementing localization yourself, or leaning on the OS's implementation.
21:45 moritz_ re
21:45 moritz_ masak: pong
21:45 masak moritz_: oh hai. I accidentally reviewed your last Rakudo commit. it doesn't work.
21:46 frettled heh
21:46 masak rakudo: my $c = Complex.new(1,2); say $c.perl
21:46 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«Complex.new(1.perl, 2.perl)␤»
21:46 frettled «accidental review» - that's a wonderful way of putting it.
21:46 * moritz_ dumb
21:46 masak moritz_: it would work in ideal Perl 6.
21:46 Wolfman2000 ...complex numbers? wow
21:47 masak moritz_: did you perchance not write tests for this? :P
21:47 masak *SCNR*
21:47 moritz_ will fix it later
21:48 masak moritz_++
21:49 xenoterracide joined #perl6
21:50 pmurias frettled: automatic generation of abbreviations would lead to new modules making old code ambigious
21:50 frettled pmurias: yep
21:52 masak jnthn: if a where clause in a param list is a regex match, does $/ get set so that it's accessible from within the routine? if not, is there any way to do that?
21:52 jnthn heh
21:52 jnthn masak: I dunno off hand. I guess you can try it. :-)
21:53 jnthn It may well work.
21:53 masak oh, you can be sure I'll try. :)
21:53 hudnix joined #perl6
21:53 jnthn Since the where clause is invoked relative to the context of the routine you're in.
21:54 moritz_ masak: even in perfect Perl 6 my last patch is wrong
21:54 moritz_ +        "Complex.new($.re.perl, $.im.perl)";
21:54 moritz_ doesn't end in a postcircumfix
21:54 moritz_ so only the $.re is interpolated
21:54 masak moritz_: oh, you're right.
21:54 masak jnthn: sounds promising. :)
21:55 jnthn rakudo: sub f($x where /\d+/) { say $/ }; f("abc123def")
21:55 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value␤␤»
21:55 jnthn bah!
21:55 jnthn fail!
21:56 sjohnson rakudo:  use justdoit;
21:56 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«Can't find ./justdoit in @*INC␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
21:56 masak jnthn: could you... make it happen? :)
21:56 frettled Make it so.
21:56 masak and then we'll spec it! \o/
21:56 jnthn masak: It may turn out that it just fixes itself in ng anyway. Not sure.
21:56 moritz_ it's already specced
21:57 jnthn I'll keep it in mind.
21:57 jnthn I think it probably should work anyway.
21:57 masak \o/
21:57 moritz_ if the RHS is not a block, it's parsed as the RHS of a smart match
21:57 masak moritz_: yes, but...
21:57 masak moritz_: that doesn't automatically mean that $/ is propagated into the routine, right?
21:58 jnthn oh hmm, that's true.
21:58 masak just got the error "set_pmc() not implemented in class 'default'" from my fork'd Rakudo.
21:59 jnthn Sounds very fork'd to me. ;-)
21:59 masak wonder what I did? :)
21:59 moritz_ masak: not sure which scope it is in
21:59 moritz_ masak: or what happens if you have multiple such things
21:59 masak moritz_: the last one, in case of multimples.
21:59 masak provided this makes sense at all.
22:00 masak moritz_: parameters are evaluated LTR anyway.
22:01 moritz_ masak: yes, but binding time != evaluation time
22:01 jnthn Yes, order of parameter binding is LTR.
22:01 moritz_ masak: and where clauses are executed at binding time
22:01 moritz_ doesn't calling positionals by name change that?
22:02 masak I was worried something like that might spoil the fun. :)
22:02 masak oh well.
22:02 moritz_ doesn't have to be a show-stopper
22:04 jnthn moritz_: Calling positionals by name does *not* change the order in which the parameters are bound.
22:04 jaffa8 left #perl6
22:04 jnthn rakudo: sub foo($x where { say 1 }, $y where { say 2 }) { }; foo(1,2); foo(x => 1, y => 2); foo(y => 2, x => 1);
22:04 p6eval rakudo 74f561: OUTPUT«1␤2␤1␤2␤1␤2␤»
22:04 moritz_ so :($a, $b) := \(3, a => 4) binds $b first, and then $a?
22:05 jnthn moritz_: No.
22:05 moritz_ wow
22:05 jnthn moritz_: It's *always* bound in the order the parameters are declared in the signature.
22:05 * moritz_ genuinely suprised
22:05 jnthn Yes, that was one of the fun parts of writing the binder. ;-)
22:05 moritz_ do we have tests for that? ;-)
22:05 jnthn It's actually not a big deal to do really though.
22:05 jnthn moritz_: Not yet. ;-)
22:05 jnthn It is spec though.
22:06 jnthn It's a line of spec that caused me to toss my first binding algorithm when I was designing the new binder. :-)
22:06 moritz_ is it also spec that constraints have to be evaluated as seldom as possible?
22:07 moritz_ if not, it'll make testing with side effects in the constraints much harder
22:08 jnthn moritz_: Just make a constraint that requires the compiler to solve the halting problem in the test. ;-)
22:08 jnthn I think not doing them would count as an optimization.
22:08 jnthn But it'll be a hard opt to do.
22:09 moritz_ I think I know a decent way to test it
22:09 jnthn For any non-trivial case.
22:09 jnthn :-)
22:09 masak I agree with jnthn. it feels strange to spec 'as seldom as possible'.
22:09 masak better to leave it up to the implementations.
22:10 moritz_ I don't need that constraint for valid testing
22:12 masak I'm getting strange errors.
22:13 jnthn "Monkey eating beach ball can not handle banana."?
22:14 masak ok, slightly strange errors.
22:14 * masak slowly inches away from jnthn
22:14 jnthn At least now your error doesn't feel so strange any more.
22:14 masak true.
22:15 masak first, it was that set_pmc() error.
22:15 masak now, it's "Can only transform an Object to p6opaque"
22:16 jnthn Ouch.
22:16 jnthn Those are gutsy errors.
22:16 jnthn masak: How're you achieving them?
22:16 moritz_ I've seen that with outdated files lying around in the build or install dir
22:16 masak jnthn: I don't know yet.
22:17 jnthn The only time you'll run into "default" normally is if some dynpmc type name looking went pear-shaped, which really should not happen.
22:17 pugs_svn r28979 | moritz++ | [t/spec] binding happens in parameter order
22:17 moritz_ regexes ftw
22:18 moritz_ this test is a bit permissive, but it doesn't blow up if the dispatcher does more checks than necessary
22:18 Wolfman2000 Hmm...alright, feather question. Where exactly is pugs/docs/feather/~?
22:18 moritz_ Wolfman2000: where did you get that reference form?
22:18 moritz_ s/form/from/
22:18 Wolfman2000 http://feather.perl6.nl/~/
22:18 moritz_ might refer to the pugs svn repo
22:19 moritz_ Wolfman2000: if you put something in the public_html folder in the home dir, it'll show up on http://feather.perl6.nl/~wolfman2000/
22:19 Whiteknight joined #perl6
22:20 Wolfman2000 moritz_: actually, ~jafelds
22:20 Wolfman2000 it does show
22:20 Wolfman2000 but I want to update the listing
22:20 Wolfman2000 ...and yeah, looks like I need pugs as well
22:20 Wolfman2000 alright, what's the proper way to get pugs?
22:21 moritz_ there's an INSTALL file in the pugs repo that describes that
22:22 moritz_ ah
22:22 moritz_ the ~ dir in the pugs repo
22:22 moritz_ how surprising ;-)
22:22 moritz_ in pugs/docs/feather/~/
22:27 tak11 joined #perl6
22:30 frettled moritz_: originally there was a nothing dir, but then Emacs auto-saved a backup copy ;)
22:31 Wolfman2000 and...I don't have any $PAGER variables, and thus can't perl Makefile.PL pugs
22:31 frettled hrm, that's buggyish
22:32 moritz_ Wolfman2000: you shouldn't be doing that anyway
22:32 jnthn frettled: Sometimes Emacs is nearly as buggy an OS as Windows, eh? ;-)
22:32 Wolfman2000 so someone else will have to update the website listings to see my username
22:32 frettled jnthn: Yeah, but with fewer remove execution vulnerabilities ;)
22:33 moritz_ Wolfman2000: if you want pugs installed, you need to follow the "INSTALLING PUGS VIA CABAL" instructions in the INSTALL file
22:45 masak here's my progress for the evening: http://github.com/masak/rak​udo/blob/master/temporal.t http://github.com/masak/rakudo/bl​ob/master/src/setting/Temporal.pm
22:45 masak all tests pass.
22:45 masak now blogging about it.
22:46 moritz_ do we have a book meeting tomorrow?
22:46 masak yes, I think so.
22:46 masak but I'll be unable to attend. :/
22:46 moritz_ ok
22:47 jnthn oh book...I forgot to write this week :-(
22:47 * jnthn <- fail
22:47 moritz_ you wrote code that week
22:47 moritz_ that's fine too
22:47 jnthn Yeah, and the week before...
22:48 moritz_ so we can have something to write about ;-)
22:48 jnthn :-/
22:48 moritz_ anyway, I'd also welcome reviews of what I wrote over the weekend
22:50 frettled masak: where's your yak?
22:51 masak frettled: sorry?
22:51 frettled masak: I have a razor, but I see no yak :(
22:51 masak frettled: is this a very contrived way of saying you want to contribute?
22:52 masak very well. first read this: http://github.com/masak/temporal-flux-perl6syn​/blob/master/S32-setting-library/Temporal.pod
22:52 masak then write tests. kthxbai.
22:52 masak the interesting things start at line 209.
22:52 frettled masak: No, it's a very contrived way of saying that it looks fine enough that there is no need for yak shaving
22:53 masak frettled: thanks. but there's a lot of redundancy in there.
22:53 frettled masak: yes, a bit
22:55 frettled But at the moment, I don't really see how you can easily get around that.
23:00 masak me neither.
23:01 frettled But if I for some reason should have an epiphany, I'll be sure to let you know, perhaps even in the form of a patch.  :)
23:02 masak excellent. I'd expect nothing less. :)
23:03 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'November 3 2009 -- doing it with style and sophistication': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39836?from=rss
23:05 frettled Wotzthiszaslonthing?
23:06 masak it's a bot written in Perl 6. carlin++
23:06 diakopter zaslon: hi
23:06 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:07 moritz_ zaslon: help
23:07 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:07 moritz_ zaslon: you're repeating yourself
23:07 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:07 diakopter zaslon:
23:07 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:09 masak zaslon: Sorry, you don't understand that command?
23:09 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:10 * masak thought so
23:13 fax Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:13 jnthn fax: get me a beer
23:14 jnthn ...bah, useless bot.
23:14 moritz_ hugme: hug jnthn
23:14 * hugme hugs jnthn
23:14 jnthn hugme++
23:14 frettled maybe it can fax you a beer drawing
23:14 masak 'night, #perl6.
23:14 jnthn night masak++
23:14 moritz_ 'night
23:14 frettled yep, nighty-night!
23:14 jnthn frettled: That'd be an amazing feat, given I don't actually have a fax machine. :-)
23:15 frettled jnthn: what century are you living in, anyway?  :)
23:15 jnthn 21st. Fax machines were so 20th century. ;-)
23:19 moritz_ does anybody know the URL to the svn repo that holds the perl.org website?
23:24 TimToady I used to edit the specs via https://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design but I suspect it was all indirect via combust
23:25 frettled Not via the pugs repo?
23:25 TimToady not till we moved the specs there
23:25 frettled D'oh :D
23:25 moritz_ it seems https://svn.perl.org/perl.org/ is the correct URL, but it won't let me in
23:26 TimToady std: D'oh:D
23:26 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«Undeclared name:␤      D'oh used at line 1␤ok 00:01 104m␤»
23:26 moritz_ not even with the svn.perl.org account info
23:27 ronny_ joined #perl6
23:27 diakopter std: D'oh :D
23:27 TimToady looks like a new cert as of August
23:27 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«Undeclared name:␤      D'oh used at line 1␤ok 00:02 103m␤»
23:27 ronny_ hi
23:27 TimToady hmm, why isn't that two terms in a row
23:28 TimToady but it works for me after I allow the new cert
23:28 diakopter std: :D :D :D
23:28 moritz_ because D'oh is a listop, expecting a term?
23:28 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 102m␤»
23:28 TimToady oh, it's parsed as a sub call, D'oh
23:28 moritz_ hi ronny_
23:29 TimToady std: class D'oh {...}; D'oh:D
23:29 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 105m␤»
23:29 TimToady std: class D'oh {...}; D'oh :D
23:29 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 105m␤»
23:29 moritz_ ah, I only have access to the live/ subdir
23:29 diakopter std: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D
23:29 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 102m␤»
23:29 frettled ooohkaaay.
23:29 TimToady okay, :D in adverbial position
23:30 tak_ joined #perl6
23:30 ronny_ whats the current state of the different perl6 implementations? didnt find any information on completeness of the language and other interesting things like bindings
23:31 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/status
23:31 moritz_ that's about rakudo at least
23:31 Tene ronny_: that looks like several questions...
23:31 moritz_ pugs is mostly sleeping for several years now
23:31 diakopter std: (::C:(Int))
23:31 moritz_ kp6 and elf also look rather dormant
23:31 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 110m␤»
23:32 tak_ joined #perl6
23:32 moritz_ mildew and sprixel are being developed actively
23:32 moritz_ but both aren't very usable yet
23:32 TimToady ooh, I have an idea!
23:32 TimToady it might even be a good idea
23:32 jnthn uh-oh :D
23:32 * diakopter takes responsibility in that case
23:32 TimToady we have bare infixes, and infixes in [op]
23:33 TimToady but there's no special reason to say $a [eqv] $b
23:33 TimToady what if that were special, and set $! on failure?
23:33 moritz_ set $! to what?
23:33 TimToady whatever you want for testing
23:33 moritz_ to the thing that fail() retunredß
23:33 moritz_ s/ß/?/
23:34 ronny_ hmm, yes, so rakudo is the one to beet on
23:34 TimToady ok $a [eqv] $b, 'message including $!';
23:34 diakopter zaslon: beet on rakudo
23:34 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
23:35 diakopter ronny_: yep, these days..
23:35 TimToady that is, [op] where infix is expected would capture its arguments sufficiently well to implement is, is_deeply, etc
23:35 TimToady the parser would just do that for you somehow
23:36 ronny_ diakopter: i suppose i'll grab it and test if i might like the actual language better than python
23:36 TimToady or set some other variable than $! maybe
23:36 moritz_ you can like and use more programming languages than just one ;-)
23:37 frettled TimToady: perhaps set any variable by programmer's choice?  *g,d&r*
23:37 ronny_ moritz_: yeah, but its certainly distracting for single projects to use more than one, (sometimes 2 is acceptable tho)
23:37 TimToady and for parsers that aren't up to implementing [op] that way, fudge could easily translate to some other form
23:37 moritz_ ronny_: yes
23:38 diakopter std: say \|\|\|&eval
23:38 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 130m␤»
23:38 moritz_ TimToady: so you want to diag($!) on failed tests?
23:38 moritz_ or something similar?
23:39 ronny_ moritz_: and since im unhappy with pythons library situation im taking a look at other things every now and then
23:39 TimToady the [op] form would just capture all the data that we wish we could with "ok $a op $b" now, but can't
23:39 moritz_ ronny_: well, Perl 6's library situation isn't bright either at the moment
23:39 moritz_ ronny_: though we're working on improving that ;-)
23:39 ronny_ moritz_: well, i suspect that will change
23:39 TimToady and it would be useful for run-time testing of assertions, as well
23:39 moritz_ I'm sure it will
23:40 moritz_ TimToady: sounds useful
23:40 diakopter std: $%
23:40 moritz_ maybe that also answers the questions how error messages propagate from exceptions
23:40 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«[31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Obsolete use of $% variable; in Perl 6 please use Form module instead at /tmp/ea0lcjGPdj line 1:␤------> [32m$%[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤»
23:41 diakopter std: ::Form
23:41 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 102m␤»
23:41 ronny_ moritz_: perl5 already has shown the emphasis on good libs in perl, i just never liked the language itself, perl6 seems to be more close to my liking as a language
23:41 moritz_ then 'foo' [~~] /f ~ f o*/ would set $! to "Unable to match regex, can't find final 'f' at $thing"
23:41 frettled hmm, interesting
23:44 diakopter std: \|\|\|\|\|()
23:44 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 110m␤»
23:45 TimToady well, maybe not that much, but certainly 'expected /f ~ f o*/ but got "foo"' or some such
23:45 diakopter std: \|/\|/|/\|\|\//|()
23:45 justatheory joined #perl6
23:45 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 110m␤»
23:46 moritz_ I'd expect ~ to explicitly tell me what it was looking for
23:47 TimToady it could be made to happen, if individual [op] checkers can work differently, but I was looking for something that would work with any relational
23:47 diakopter std: ::foo [[[eqv]]] ::bar
23:47 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 104m␤»
23:49 TimToady and that could easily be fit into fudge for implementations that aren't up to treating [op] specially yet
23:50 TimToady I guess if we want the failure mode of // we need $/ to contain interesting values of false
23:50 diakopter std: ::foo ***** ::bar
23:50 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 104m␤»
23:50 TimToady so maybe [op] sets $/ when it fails
23:51 TimToady $/ could be false, while $<left> and $<right> could interesting
23:52 TimToady or $<lastpanic> or whatever
23:53 TimToady ltext op rtext larg rarg errmsg
23:54 diakopter std: $<>
23:54 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 104m␤»
23:55 TimToady std: $<><><><><><><>  # diamonds are forever
23:55 rjbs joined #perl6
23:55 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 104m␤»
23:55 TimToady more like
23:55 rjbs First off, thanks, #perl6, for introducing me to U+2424.  What an awesome glyph.
23:55 TimToady std: $$$$$<><><>
23:55 p6eval std 28979: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 104m␤»
23:56 * TimToady bows
23:56 moritz_ rjbs: ;-)
23:56 dukeleto TimToady: wow.
23:56 rjbs Nextly, I was wondering if I would be extremely foolish to hope that we'll have persistent lexicals in the repl for R*.
23:57 moritz_ rjbs: not foolish, it's on the ROADMAP
23:57 jnthn rjbs: We very much want them.
23:57 jnthn rjbs: Highly likely we'll have them for R*.
23:57 rjbs That's great.  It's been a sort of annoying stumbling block for just messing about.
23:57 TimToady there's probably some way to fake it now with nested evals of closures :)
23:57 jnthn Yeah, fully agree.
23:57 jnthn TimToady: Yes yes, it'll just involving some cheating and lies. :-)
23:58 rjbs TimToady: If I wanted to cry in my beer, I'd stay in Perl 5. ;)
23:58 rjbs Hm.  I have no small beer at home.  Curses!
23:58 nihiliad joined #perl6
23:58 jnthn rjbs: Whatever's wrong with the big beer? ;-)
23:58 TimToady one large works as well as several small
23:58 rjbs no...
23:58 frew__ joined #perl6
23:58 rjbs I have one 12 flox (ISB) of beer at home.
23:59 rjbs IT is 20 percent alcohol by volume.
23:59 jnthn Whoa.
23:59 moritz_ even Starkbier usually has less
23:59 jnthn That's some serious beer.
23:59 TimToady That's no moon!  That's a space station!!!
23:59 rjbs This is the "famous" Dogfish Head 120 Minute Pale Ale.
23:59 rjbs I'm going to split it with a friend, I think.

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