Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-11-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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Time Nick Message
00:00 Wolfman2000 Perl 6 is not fully backwards compatible with Perl 5 for many reasons.
00:00 jnthn emma: Some people dislike the break in compatibility. Others are disillusioned because, well, people ain't good with coping with the fact that some things just take a long time to do right.
00:00 jnthn They're entitled to their opinion.
00:01 emma Maybe eventually Perl6 will be thought of as the defacto perl and all of you will chat in #perl instead.
00:01 jnthn Maybe. :-)
00:01 Tene emma: Perl has a long tradition of strict backwards compatibility, at any price.  Perl 6 changes several things in incompatible ways, which is enough for some people.
00:02 Tene And then some people odn't like those changes, and then conclude that it must not be Perl anymore.
00:03 Tene I've got a friend who is fanatically upset about Perl 6 because of minor changes to how it handles whitespace, for example.
00:03 Tene He ranted to me for half an hour about it the other night.
00:03 Wolfman2000 But what can be done with Perl 6? Watch
00:03 Wolfman2000 rakudo: multi sub prefix:<√>(Num $x) { return sqrt $x; } ; say √25;
00:03 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: 5␤
00:04 fax lol
00:04 emma Well I was planning to learn perl.
00:04 fax rakudo: multi sub prefix:<√>(Num $x) { return sqrt $x; } ; say √√25;
00:04 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: 2.23606797749979␤
00:04 emma But now i don't know what I should learn. I was going to use this book -- http://www.perl.org/books/beginning-perl/
00:04 Wolfman2000 rakudo: multi sub prefix:<√>(Num $x) { return sqrt $x; } ; say √√10000;
00:04 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: 10␤
00:04 emma but now i supose that book is worthless if you believe Perl 6 is perl.
00:04 fax emma irssi scripts would be in perl 5 (the normal perl)
00:05 jnthn emma: I'm helping Perl 6 come about, but I also still a lot of my day to day work in Perl 5. Perl 5 is still a great, and very capable, langauge.
00:05 Wolfman2000 emma: I'm also helping Perl 6 by at least giving some of what's out a shot.
00:05 Wolfman2000 I'm one of the guinea pigs that makes sure the language works as it should.
00:06 Tene emma: A large part of what you'd learn from that book would apply about the same to Perl 5 and Perl 6.  As well, most people don't consider Perl 6 ready for production use yet, and wouldn't recommend it.  It's still missing quite a bit, although improving rapidly.
00:06 sjohnson Wolfpig, if you will :)
00:06 Wolfman2000 I'll soon be working with masak on a feature he's working on.
00:06 Wolfman2000 sjohnson--: Not funny.
00:06 sjohnson tough crowd
00:06 Tene http://rakudo.org/status/
00:06 Tene emma: That book would not be a bad place to start learning Perl, and if you want to use Perl today, then Perl 5 is your best option.
00:07 Tene Perl 6 has been in progress for a long time, and while it's much closer today, we don't expect to have a release we can recommend for much until... April, I think?
00:07 Wolfman2000 ...woah. didn't notice rakudoperl had a twitter page. I better follow it now
00:07 Tene It's not very active.
00:08 Wolfman2000 Well, you've just gained a follower
00:08 Tene No I haven't.
00:08 Tene My twitter account is 'tene', not 'rakudoperl'.
00:08 Wolfman2000 Tene: you get my point...I hope.
00:09 Tene Wolfman2000: Oh, I understand now.  Sorry.
00:09 Wolfman2000 it's alright
00:10 emma Tene: okay thanks!
00:10 jnthn emma: If you want to learn a version of Perl that lets you Get Stuff Done today and that's your main objective, and you don't want to run into compiler bugs, go for Perl 5. What you learn there will prime you well to learn Perl 6 when it's ready and if you like the look of what it offers. :-)
00:10 emma well that sounds pretty good then :)
00:10 emma This is sort of like an experimental perl channel and some day you will all come back to #perl perhaps.
00:11 Tene Hopefully.
00:11 Tene This is mostly a separate channel for *developing* Perl 6.
00:11 orafu joined #perl6
00:12 Tene There's some segment of the Perl community that just *hates* Perl 6.  I'm curious to find out how that changes over time after the big release next year.
00:14 s1n pmichaud: will you have time tomorrow to get that wiki up and running (or give me some control to do what needs to be done)?
00:17 nihiliad joined #perl6
00:17 s1n Tene: i suspect none. it hasn't changed much over the course of p6, so i'm not hopeful, but forward is still progress
00:19 pmichaud s1n: I think I can arrange it, yes.
00:22 jnthn pmichaud: Didn't get any energy for ng today, 'fraid (had to take care of a deployment of some web thingy...on the upside, that's taken care of now :-))
00:23 jnthn Next week is looking pretty clear though. :-)
00:23 pmichaud jnthn: no problem, you'll be more productive after I land the speed improvements anyway :)
00:23 jnthn pmichaud: Well, that too. :-)
00:23 jnthn I'll take 20 seconds compiles over 5 minute ones any day.
00:23 pmichaud I'll see how low I can get things :)
00:24 jnthn You're costing icanhascheezburger some hits in improving it though.
00:25 jnthn Anyway, I'm hoping that the Actions.pm won't grow too huge.
00:26 starek joined #perl6
00:28 starek left #perl6
00:31 pmichaud it should end up less huge than before
00:31 pmichaud although it might be "as big" because we duplicate a lot of small methods
00:32 jnthn Hmm
00:32 jnthn Yeah, there is that.
00:32 pmichaud anyway, we should end up with not-as-big methods, at any rate :)
00:32 pmichaud testing new lineof code now
00:32 jnthn \o/
00:32 jnthn I'm glad we got to the bottom of that one.
00:32 jnthn And that I didn't have to write the fix. ;-)
00:32 pmichaud yes.  and I feel better that we'll handle utf8 there also
00:33 pmichaud we should see some good code improvement there.
00:33 colomon \o/
00:36 * jnthn is moving a physical timezone west for much of December.
00:37 sjohnson masak++ for regex help earlier
00:38 orafu joined #perl6
00:42 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
00:48 pmichaud ugh, my patch isn't working
00:48 pmichaud src/string/api.c:1191: failed assertion '!PObj_on_free_list_TEST(src)'
00:49 pmichaud oh.  I think I know.
00:50 pmichaud nope, not it.
00:52 jnthn pmichaud: gah, that's nasty :-(
00:52 jnthn pmichaud: mark fail?
00:52 pmichaud probably, but I'm not sure where
00:52 pmichaud want to look at the patch for me real quick?
00:52 jnthn Sure
00:52 pmichaud (you're more familiar with this stuff than I am)
00:53 pmichaud http://gist.github.com/229000  # CodeString.pmc patch
00:54 jnthn looking
00:55 jnthn That mark is probably wrong.
00:55 jnthn moment
00:56 pmichaud I was trying to follow marks in other PMC code :-|
00:56 jnthn pmichaud: Yes, it's wrong.
00:56 jnthn You need to call SUPER()
00:56 pmichaud I couldn't find SUPER() in any other mark code, though.
00:57 pmichaud I'll try it, though.
00:57 jnthn You need to call SUPER() :-)
00:57 jnthn pmichaud: Look in the string.pmc. It marks the STRING *.
00:57 pmichaud that fixed it.
00:57 jnthn Good.
00:57 pmichaud ...wonder why other mark() don't have to do it when they're in a subclass, though.
00:58 jnthn What did you look at?
00:58 jnthn I mean, Perl6MultiSub doesn't call SUPER()
00:58 jnthn But that's because it doesn't share the same layout as what it inherits from.
00:58 pmichaud oh, I found another one -- ExceptionHandler calls SUPER()
00:58 jnthn (Becase MultiSub's layout is wrong.)
00:58 Wolfman2000 Which Synopsis covers classes again? I think I need to study that once more before I attempt the Linked List again.
00:58 pmichaud filehandle.pmc doesn't call SUPER() in mark()
00:59 jnthn pmichaud: Yes, but Handle doesn't have any markables.
00:59 pmichaud okay.
00:59 jnthn Granted, that means it's assuming stuff about what it inherits from.
00:59 pmichaud that makes sense then.
00:59 jnthn Which is probably an anti-pattern.
01:00 jnthn Since if Handle was to start having a PMC reference, then FileHandle would not mark stuff it should.
01:00 jnthn oh lol guess what
01:00 jnthn /* TODO: Consider encapsulating PIOHANDLE as a PMC type, for subclassing */
01:00 pmichaud what?
01:00 jnthn ATTR PIOHANDLE os_handle;         /* Low level OS descriptor      */
01:00 jnthn bwaha
01:00 pmichaud anyway, I have news to report
01:00 pmichaud with the lineof fix in place
01:01 pmichaud my test file b.pm
01:01 jnthn So anyway, if they do that TODO, FileHandle will need to start calling Super. :-)
01:01 darln joined #perl6
01:01 pmichaud was 55 seconds
01:01 payload joined #perl6
01:01 jnthn uh-huh.
01:01 pmichaud now 24 seconds
01:01 jnthn Win.
01:01 jnthn pmichaud++
01:01 pmichaud we'll get more win when I put the transcode back in place
01:01 pmichaud I'll do that while running make test
01:01 jnthn Sure, but you've no doubt solved the major bottleneck.
01:04 Wolfman2000 ah, here we go: S12
01:04 lichtkind good night
01:05 darln is there any place one can get a test package of Perl 6 for testing?
01:05 pmichaud darln: http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
01:05 pmichaud darln:  http://perl6.org/
01:07 darln perl6.ord gives me NXDOMAIN, I'll try out rakudo though
01:07 darln is rakudu really Perl 6 though?
01:07 pmichaud .org
01:07 darln ?
01:07 darln yeah I can't open that page
01:07 pmichaud oh, perhaps the dns server is down righ tnow
01:07 Tene darln: Yes, Rakudo is the predominant implementation of Perl 6.
01:08 pmichaud yes, rakudo really is an implementation of Perl 6
01:08 darln not getting anything with dig +trace either
01:08 pmichaud I bet the dns server was done.  I know they were doing upgrades on the server earlier today.
01:08 pmichaud s/done/down/
01:09 darln sorry, let me get this straight, theres implimentations of an imcomplete spec? curious
01:09 pmichaud why not?
01:09 Tene http://rakudo.org/status/ -- Rakudo implements this much of the spec.
01:09 pmichaud a spec doesn't have to be complete to implement it
01:10 Tene darln: The implementations drive the spec, in many cases.
01:10 darln well I'm just trying ot imagine a Perl with half the features missing :p
01:10 pmichaud ODF 1.0  was an incomplete spec, but plenty of people implemented it
01:10 pmichaud in fact, on the internet, the official way to do things is to have multiple implementations before a specification is designed and approved :)
01:10 darln pmichaud: actually didn't many people have ot fill in the gaps?
01:11 pmichaud sure.  but anyone who believes a spec is complete before implementation begins is still designing in the 1980s :)
01:11 darln and don't even get me started on 802.11 N
01:12 jnthn darln: The waterfall model just doesn't work out so well for language design. Sometimes things that seem like a Great Idea don't work out quite so well once people start writing code in the language, but there's no way for people to meaningfully write code if they don't have a way to run it.
01:12 Tene Perl 6 subscribes to the Whirlpool development strategy.
01:12 jnthn It's a process of convergence.
01:12 darln pmichaud: well most langs have a solid base spec before it's released in any usable fashion
01:12 pmichaud Perl 5 didn't.
01:13 pmichaud nor did PHP, for that matter.  :)
01:13 Tene darln: Perl 6 had a pretty good spec before anyone started working on Rakudo.  We just were realistic enough to recognize that it would change in response to the implementation, so we didn't play silly naming games with it.
01:14 pmichaud I'd actually say that most languages started without a solid base spec before they were released :)
01:14 darln um, Perl 5 built on Perl 4 which built on Perl 3, .... and similar for PHP, they all had a solid BASE
01:14 s1n darln: no, most things that have a spec were either 1 RFC'd in the 70's or have the spec created while the impl is created
01:14 pugs_svn r29022 | kyle++ | [t/spec] typo fix
01:14 pmichaud the "solid specification" came long after the language.
01:14 s1n C had no solid spec for liek what, 15 years?
01:14 pmichaud darln: there may have been a solid "base" for Perl 5, but there certainly wasn't a spec that preceded an implementation
01:14 s1n and that language is far less complex
01:15 pmichaud unless you claim that an implementation is somehow a spec, in which case my point is proven :)
01:15 darln ok maybe spec isn't the word I was looking for then
01:15 darln well, I would consider Perl5's perldoc lib to be it's spec
01:15 pmichaud heh
01:16 darln I don't think Perl ever had na officla RFC or so
01:16 s1n heh
01:16 pmichaud that's.... funny
01:16 s1n does perl5 pass it's own test suite yet?
01:16 pmichaud because perldoc explicitly says that if the docs don't match the implementation, it's the documentation that's wrong :)
01:16 darln well to me a spec is what describes all the aspects of something, and perldoc seems to be as clsoe ot that as you can get for Perl
01:16 darln s1n: actually yes it does, form what I've seen
01:16 s1n darln: which do you think came first, perl or perldoc?
01:17 pmichaud darln: sure.  but the implementation clearly comes before the spec
01:17 darln like I said, when I said "incomplete spec" a bit back I clearly used the wrong terms/words
01:17 pmichaud darln: yes, I'm picking on you a bit.  :)
01:17 s1n the only thing that speaks is code, everything else is fluff
01:17 pmichaud darln: the truth is that the language and specification co-evolve together
01:18 darln I was meaning some sort of definition or reference so one would know what is what in the lang itself
01:18 pmichaud right
01:18 pmichaud the language and specification co-evolve together
01:18 darln you can't have a lang with out some clear definitions of syntax and keywords and such
01:18 darln or I should say a usable lang
01:18 pmichaud we have a spec, and we implement the spec, and as we do the implementation we discover places where the spec is imprecise or doesn't work, so we revise the spec based on the implementation, which drives more implementation which ...
01:19 pmichaud Perl 6 is definitely a usable lang.
01:19 Tene darln: There *was* a fairly significant spec before work on Rakudo began, as I said.  It's just that nobody believed that it was final, because we all knew it would change in response to the implementation.
01:20 s1n rakudo is only now catching up to ow complete pugs was (in comparison to the spec then)
01:21 s1n pmichaud might argue it's better now with nqprx
01:21 pmichaud I think rakudo probably surpassed pugs sometime over the summer
01:21 pmichaud with nqprx it's way behind...but we should be able to catch up again in a few weeks
01:21 Tene +1
01:22 s1n the point is the spec used to drive more implementation, now the implementations are catching up to the spec and they _have_ to co-evolve, just like pmichaud said
01:23 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Nominal type check failed for parameter '$next'; expected Node but got Failure instead in Main  (um, what if I WANT undef?)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89963
01:23 Wolfman2000 I thought I had this...
01:24 jnthn Wolfman2000: The type constraints are optional. :-)
01:24 Wolfman2000 jnthn: If that's supposed to be a hint to the solution, I'm dense.
01:24 pmichaud jnthn: okay,  compiling b.pm was 55 seconds, now 16.5 seconds
01:25 jnthn pmichaud: omg
01:25 pmichaud (put in the transcoding optimization)
01:25 jnthn Nice.
01:25 pmichaud I'll measure Actions.pm from ng -- just a sec
01:25 jnthn Wolfman2000: method new(Str $name, Node $next)
01:25 jnthn Could be
01:25 jnthn method new(Str $name, $next)
01:25 jnthn Then you can pass what you like to $next
01:26 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Can type junctioning also work then? Say: method new(Str $name, Node|Failure $next)?
01:26 pmichaud jnthn: Actions.pm on my box is now 13 seconds to pir
01:26 jnthn pmichaud: huh, I want your box.
01:26 pmichaud you'll have it when I check in these changes :)
01:26 jnthn \o/
01:26 pmichaud and I still have quite a bit more optimization to put in place :)
01:26 jnthn Wolfman2000: No
01:27 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89963 "As jnthn just said, no type junctioning. Oh well..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89963#1
01:27 jnthn Wolfman2000: by the way, if you don't want to have to specify the next node, why not make it an optional param?
01:27 jnthn method new(Str $name, Node $next)
01:27 Wolfman2000 jnthn: One step at a time.
01:27 jnthn gah, paste fail
01:27 jnthn method new(Str $name, Node $next?)
01:27 jnthn Then you can call it as Node.new("Wolfman2000") :-)
01:27 envi^home joined #perl6
01:28 Wolfman2000 jnthn: then what's $next set to?
01:28 jnthn An undef, iirc
01:28 * jnthn thinks something might still be fishy here...
01:28 pmichaud I wonder if it should get set to the Node type object, though.
01:28 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah
01:28 jnthn pmichaud: That was what I was thinking might be fishy.
01:28 Wolfman2000 doesn't seem to set to undef. Otherwise, it would have failed.
01:28 Wolfman2000 ...eprhaps it's being set to Failure automatically?
01:29 pmichaud undef kinda is a Failure in rakudo at the moment
01:29 jnthn pmichaud: If it's meant to happen, I can do it easy enough.
01:29 jnthn pmichaud: It'd be consistent with var decls.
01:29 pmichaud right
01:29 jnthn So it feels right.
01:29 pmichaud I've often thought we should do that for optional params
01:29 jnthn Also it's Really Really Easy.
01:29 jnthn Yeah.
01:29 pmichaud I haven't thought that it's Really Really Easy.  At least not under the old param code :)
01:30 Wolfman2000 So...what types of junctioning are available then?
01:30 jnthn pmichaud: iirc under the new param code I think it's like, changing one line or something.
01:30 pmichaud right
01:30 Wolfman2000 If you can't junction types within a variable, what can you junction?
01:30 pmichaud jnthn: that's what I had hoped and expected
01:30 jnthn pmichaud: Heh. Maybe I did manage to get it about rightish after all. :-)
01:31 jnthn Wolfman2000: We don't handle junctions of types. It was a proposed feature of Perl 6, it may happen in the future (after 6.0.0), but it raises...issues.
01:32 jnthn Wolfman2000: I mean, you can make a variable that contains two types.
01:32 pmichaud jnthn: okay, I wonder how much the change I just made to lineno will improve the spectest speed in master :)
01:32 jnthn But you can't write a junction of types where a single type is expected.
01:32 jnthn Sorry if this is confusing...
01:32 Wolfman2000 jnthn: It is a little confusing.
01:33 jnthn I might explain it better if it wasn't 2:30am. ;-)
01:33 pmichaud in general I suspect one never needs to do  |Failure, because an undefined value can be assigned to any container
01:33 jnthn pmichaud: Oh hmm. And bound to any param?
01:33 jnthn (when there's a nominal type there?)
01:33 pmichaud don't know about that... but it might be consistant
01:33 pmichaud *consistent
01:33 jnthn Yeah
01:34 jnthn Actually it does bug me a little that Wolfman2000++'s code that he nopasted gave that error.
01:34 pmichaud I'd have to think about it a bit more when my brain is less fried and there's less noise in the house
01:34 jnthn Yeah, I'd have to think about it when I'm more lucid too. :-)
01:34 Wolfman2000 jnthn: ...I found a bug?
01:35 pmichaud currently there are 7 or 8 girl scouts here making dinner :)
01:35 pmichaud so it's a bit noisy
01:35 jnthn Wolfman2000: I'm not entirely sure. I'm not sure if the spec calls it one way or the other (can't remember it saying so).
01:35 jnthn Wolfman2000: I think I'd like it if the spec was clarified, and Rakudo tweaked, so what you nopasted would work.
01:35 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: There is something that bugs me in the current implementation. If you try to say any variable that is set to undef or Failure, it often says "Use of uninitialized value". Is there a way to...well, not have it say that? (besides check if defined)
01:36 pmichaud Wolfman2000: at the moment, no -- eventually we'll be able to do "no warnings;"  or something like that
01:36 pmichaud actually, that might not be all that far off, now that I think about it
01:36 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: Let me try this approach then. Is there a way within a class to make variables with "has" as "never undef"?
01:36 jnthn pmichaud: Heh. Does that end up compiling to setting some contextual variable like $*WARNINGS? :-)
01:37 pmichaud jnthn: no, I think it's a pragma namespace
01:37 jnthn pmichaud: ah, ok
01:37 pmichaud (and namespaces are lexical now, so...)
01:37 jnthn Yeah
01:37 jnthn OK
01:37 jnthn That'll work.
01:37 pmichaud anyway, I think it just sets a lexical
01:37 pmichaud Wolfman2000: at the moment the spec says that any container is allowed to have an undef in it
01:38 pmichaud I'm not sure there's a way to prevent that.
01:38 pmichaud oh, you could probably do it with a where clause
01:38 Wolfman2000 ...right, the new constraining thing
01:38 pmichaud I don't know if where clauses would supercede the other rule
01:38 jnthn subset DefinedNode of Node where *.defined;
01:38 jnthn has DefinedNode $!x
01:38 pmichaud well, we also have the new  :D and :U syntax
01:38 pmichaud has Node:D $!x
01:38 jnthn :D
01:38 eternaleye Wolfman2000: You can't junction type _constraints_. You can junction any kind of object AFAIK.
01:38 jnthn But we didn't implement those yet
01:39 jnthn :S
01:39 pmichaud (haven't read the latest spec to see what that does exactly)
01:39 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89963 "Well, this constraint worked." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89963#2
01:39 jnthn pmichaud: I think once STD starts parsing them, we probably can expect they're gonna stay around.
01:39 darln left #perl6
01:39 jnthn I don't know that it does yet.
01:39 pmichaud ...I think I saw that it does...
01:40 pmichaud more precisely -- I think I saw a commit message that said it did.  But I may be mis-remembering
01:40 pmichaud I know I saw a recent commit to either std or the spec about them.
01:40 jnthn std: sub foo(Int:D $x) { }
01:40 p6eval std 29022: ok 00:01 109m␤
01:40 jnthn fajn, it does.
01:40 jnthn uh, fine
01:41 jnthn ...oh well, I prefer the Slovak spelling anyway.
01:41 Tene std: class prefix { ... }; sub foo(prefix:D $x) { ... }
01:41 p6eval std 29022: ok 00:01 110m␤
01:41 pmichaud gotta be a little careful with prefix:  :-).
01:41 jnthn std: class IHASCHEEZBURGER { }; sub omg(IHASCHEEZBURGER:D!) { }
01:41 p6eval std 29022: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse signature; couldn't find final ')' at /tmp/NKfRMD0fxJ line 1:␤------> [32mEEZBURGER { }; sub omg(IHASCHEEZBURGER:D[33m⏏[31m!) { }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤       circumfix␤        constraint␤       param_sep␤      parameter␤
01:41 p6eval ..trait␤    type_constraint␤  whitespace␤FA…
01:41 pmichaud Also, I'm not sure if Int:D was parsed as a defined/undefined type or in the same category as    token  name:identifier { ... }
01:41 Tene std: class postfix { ... }; sub foo(postfix:D $x) { ... } # is this better?
01:41 p6eval std 29022: ok 00:01 110m␤
01:41 jnthn aww
01:42 jnthn std: class IHASCHEEZBURGER { }; sub omg(IHASCHEEZBURGER:D $nom) { }
01:42 p6eval std 29022: ok 00:01 110m␤
01:42 jnthn phew
01:42 Tene pew
01:42 jnthn Anyway, yeah, so, STD implements it.
01:42 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89963 "Hooray defined or syntax! :D" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89963#3
01:42 jnthn When I work out how STD parses it, I'll implement it. :-)
01:42 eternaleye rakudo: multi postfix:<:D>( Str $item ) { say "Sitem makes me happy!"; }; "Perl 6" :D
01:42 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: Sitem makes me happy!␤
01:43 Tene Sitem?
01:43 eternaleye grr
01:43 eternaleye rakudo: multi postfix:<:D>( Str $item ) { say "$item makes me happy!"; }; "Perl 6" :D
01:43 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: Perl 6 makes me happy!␤
01:43 jnthn I love how you can add smilies as custom operators.
01:43 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Think my latest pastebin version will be fine for now?
01:43 pmichaud at least for the moment
01:43 pmichaud that one might end up being an adverb
01:44 jnthn pmichaud: aww
01:44 pmichaud but smileys should be adverbs anyway
01:44 pmichaud since they modify the operation
01:44 jnthn True
01:44 jnthn Heh.
01:44 pmichaud note the difference between
01:44 pmichaud "Perl 6 is dead."
01:44 jnthn The Perl 6 grammar is optimized for parsing smilies in the correct grammatical category. :-)
01:44 pmichaud and
01:44 pmichaud "Perl 6 is dead."  :-)
01:44 jnthn Wolfman2000: looking
01:44 pmichaud it's definitely a modifier.
01:45 pmichaud yay, all tests successful in parrot trunk with my patch
01:45 jnthn yay
01:45 pmichaud now checking codetests
01:45 jnthn Wolfman2000: It's fine
01:45 Wolfman2000 jnthn++: Thanks. Maybe NOW I can make a proper linked list.
01:46 jnthn Wolfman2000: However, neater is where { .defined } since it puts the thingy it's chekcing into $_
01:46 jnthn Wolfman2000: And you can probably get away with *.defined too
01:46 jnthn ... where *.defined;
01:46 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Is there a difference between .defined and *.defined?
01:46 jnthn Wolfman2000: *.foo is equivalent to { .foo } which is equivalent to { $_.foo }
01:47 jnthn Wolfman2000: The difference is that you can drop the curly brackets with the *.defined form.
01:47 jnthn With { .defined } you need them.
01:47 jnthn *.methodname will make a closure for you.
01:47 jnthn It means you can do a lot of very neat things
01:48 jnthn like @products.sort(*.price)
01:48 Wolfman2000 ...wasn't there a new object method that expanded out classes and stuff into Strings?
01:48 jnthn To sort the array of, say, Product objects by their .price attribute.
01:48 Wolfman2000 I want to see my class node expanded into the string and its other node
01:48 jnthn Are you thinking of .perl ?
01:48 jnthn It's not *that* magical though.
01:48 jnthn But you can override it and make it output something nice.
01:49 jnthn oh wait
01:49 jnthn Or you can override .Str
01:49 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Unfortunately, $noth.perl only showed $noth.new()
01:49 jnthn Wolfman2000: Yeah.
01:49 jnthn Wolfman2000: That's one of those things that sorta sucks at the moment...I wish it did something better.
01:49 jnthn Wolfman2000: .perl is just a method though
01:49 jnthn You can override it.
01:50 Wolfman2000 If I can figure out a good way to call it...let's see.
01:50 Wolfman2000 I need to be able to print the $!name, and $!next if defined
01:50 jnthn method perl() { "Node.new(name => {$!name.perl}, next => {$!next.perl}" }
01:51 jnthn Basically, your .perl method generally wants to make recursive calls liek that
01:51 jnthn oh sorry
01:51 jnthn given your construcotr that's just
01:51 jnthn method perl() { "Node.new({$!name.perl}, {$!next.perl}" }
01:51 jnthn The idea of .perl is that it gives back something that you can eval to build something as close as possible to the original thing.
01:52 jnthn oh heh, I missed a paren too
01:52 jnthn method perl() { "Node.new({$!name.perl}, {$!next.perl})" } # finally
01:52 Wolfman2000 jnthn++: I think your original version also worked.
01:52 jnthn :-)
01:53 jnthn Yes, but you overrode .new, so it wouldn't ahve eval'd properly.
01:53 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Was I not supposed to override new?
01:53 jnthn Wolfman2000: btw, one problem with what I just showed you, if you want to do this Really Perfect.
01:53 jnthn Wolfman2000: No, you're allowed to override new. I'ts completely fine.
01:53 jnthn Wolfman2000: My point was that you're .perl method shuld hand back something that when eval'd would actually work. :-)
01:54 jnthn Wolfman2000: oh
01:54 jnthn Wolfman2000: It would have actually
01:54 Tene pmichaud: will ng get class stubbing so the setting can be broken apart?
01:54 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Which version works?
01:54 jnthn Wolfman2000: My first one.
01:54 jnthn Wolfman2000: Because positionals can be passed by name to anyway.
01:54 Wolfman2000 return "Node.new(name => {$!name.perl}, next => {$!next.perl})"; <-- that one?
01:54 jnthn Wolfman2000: Heh. Perl6 is too awesome for me.
01:54 jnthn Yes, that one. :-)
01:54 pmichaud Tene: class stubbing, of course (part of the spec)
01:54 pmichaud breaking the setting apart-- we're not sure about that.
01:55 pmichaud (yet)
01:55 jnthn pmichaud: The question was if we'll do it in ng though ;-)
01:55 pmichaud jnthn: of course we'll do it in ng, it's part of the spec :)
01:55 pmichaud the setting is supposed to go into a common lexical scope -- in some ways that's easier if the setting is all in a single compilation unit
01:55 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Perl6 may be too awesome for me as well. Perhaps we should team up more often.
01:55 jnthn pmichaud: OK, that's fine, but if we're doing the whole spec, you're doing the PDL stuff in S09. :-P
01:56 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89963 "Now with overridden perl(). Next up: what's the right way to override the submethod BUILD?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89963#4
01:56 jnthn Wolfman2000: Well, it's a new language. We're all still learning how to make the most of it. :-)
01:56 Wolfman2000 jnthn: serious question up there. I know that both new and BUILD are used for actually creating the classes.
01:57 jnthn Wolfman2000: Yeah.
01:57 jnthn Wolfman2000: Basically, they exist for different purposes.
01:57 jnthn If you want to provide a custom constructor - that is, a custom interface to the constructor - you override .new
01:57 jnthn That's what you have done.
01:58 jnthn If you just want to use whatever constructor you inheirt, but you want to do some initialization of attributes, you can instead have a submethod BUILD.
01:58 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Let me modify my file to see if I understand something...that can use both .new and .BUILD
01:58 jnthn Wolfman2000: In your example that you nopasted, you don't need to do the BUILD thing.
01:59 jnthn I mean, there's no natural use for it here.
01:59 jnthn If you want to see BUILD submethods put to decent use, see masak++'s druid.
01:59 jnthn e.g. http://github.com/masak/druid/​blob/master/lib/Druid/Game.pm
02:00 jnthn Here, there's some complex init of the attributes to be done, so that logic is put in a BUILD method.
02:00 jnthn Wolfman2000: Don't expect to be writing a new and a BUILD in every class though.
02:00 Wolfman2000 ...but it doesn't seem to have a .new
02:01 Wolfman2000 Also, I'm mixing up what $. and $! do again.
02:01 jnthn Wolfman2000: Right. It uses the default one that is inherited from Object.
02:01 jnthn Wolfman2000: It's perfectly fine to have a class with no BUILD submethod and no new method.
02:01 jnthn They're there if you need them, they're not things Perl 6 makes you write. :-)
02:02 jnthn $!foo always refers to the storage location for the attribute.
02:02 pmichaud the default .new and .BUILD are intended to cover a lot of cases for you :)
02:02 Wolfman2000 ...and feather is going slow now. This isn't good
02:02 jnthn Right, that's a better way of putting it.
02:03 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89963 "Broken version. Don't want to force users to initialize the time the nodes were made. Is this where BUILD comes in handy?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89963#5
02:04 jnthn I think that's a good example.
02:04 Wolfman2000 Method 'get_name' not found for invocant of class 'Str' in Main <-- that's the error message I get for running that file.
02:05 jnthn Wolfman2000: Oh. :-/
02:05 jnthn Wolfman2000: Oh, and I know why do.
02:05 jnthn *too
02:05 jnthn :-(
02:06 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Alright, I'll establish that I did it wrong somehow. How did I do it wrong?
02:06 jnthn Wolfman2000: Your code is probably valid Perl 6. You just hit a Rakudo bug...one that I think we'll deal with in the ng branch. Basically, if you write a BUILD submethod today, it forgets about the other initializations you're doing.
02:06 jnthn Sorry. This is just one of those "Rakudo doesn't always get it right yet".
02:07 jnthn In masak's code, there was a comment to the effect.
02:07 jnthn It's a bug in the compiler, not your mistake.
02:07 Wolfman2000 jnthn: I'm guessing ng is the most popular branch. So far, it's been suggested that I hold off on using that branch. When should I use it?
02:08 colomon ng is only "used" by maybe five people yet.
02:08 jnthn Wolfman2000: It's not popular in terms of people using it.
02:08 colomon it's under heavy development.
02:08 jnthn Wolfman2000: It's popular to talk about because it's where a lot of active development/changes are happening.
02:08 jnthn So those involved in hacking on it are talking a lot about it.
02:08 colomon it's popular because we're all super-excited for what it will bring when it is ready to be merged in with the master branch.
02:08 jnthn It's certainly not usable yet.
02:08 Wolfman2000 colomon, jnthn: when will it be merged in?
02:09 Wolfman2000 I've got perfectly valid code that I don't want to have go to waste here...and the $!timecheck variable will be useful for when I eventually implement a priority Linked List
02:09 pmichaud when we're passing roughly the same number of tests as the master branch
02:09 jnthn Wolfman2000: It's hard to estimate. I really, really hope we land it before the next Rakudo release.
02:09 pmichaud and I suspect we won't "merge" the branch
02:09 colomon pmichaud: no?
02:09 pmichaud I suspect we'll rename the existing master branch to something else, and the ng branch to master
02:10 Wolfman2000 Considering that I'm using the source of rakudo, I don't think releases mean anything to me.
02:10 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah. We may have to cherry pick back some of the changes from master too.
02:10 pmichaud jnthn: there shouldn't be too many
02:10 Wolfman2000 So...when exactly do I recompile the master for the stuff that has been put in?
02:10 colomon is that a subtle hint not to do any development on master at the moment?
02:10 jnthn pmichaud: Some folks++ have done some settings tweaks.
02:10 pmichaud colomon: I'd probably not do too much major tweakage
02:10 pmichaud we could certainly pull settings in from master
02:10 pmichaud and in fact, I suspect we'll do that instead of copying settings over from the existing branch
02:11 pmichaud rephrasing
02:11 jnthn Wolfman2000: When it happens, it'll certainly be announced here, and if you follow any of the blogs, it'll get anounced there too.
02:11 pmichaud when we get to compiling settings in ng, we'll copy them from the master branch rather than use the ones already in ng
02:11 colomon I promise not to do anything in master outside of settings.  :)
02:11 jnthn Wolfman2000: I'd like to give you a more accurate figure, but to be honest I'd be pulling it out of thin air.
02:11 checkin-it-out joined #perl6
02:11 jnthn We'll probably have a better idea in a few days time.
02:11 pmichaud yes, I think so
02:12 pmichaud I plan to push to have Test.pm running tomorrow sometime
02:12 Wolfman2000 So for now, no time stamp priority linked list. Understood.
02:13 pmichaud okay, jnthn -- ng and nqp-rx now updated to new faster code gen
02:14 Wolfman2000 ...I now have to wonder. With Rakudo in the state that it's in...how am I supposed to be sure Web.pm will be alright when masak and I handle that?
02:14 colomon Wolfman2000: The current Rakudo branch certainly works better than the Rakudo Web.pm was developed under.
02:14 checkin-it-out Hi. Regarding the standard library that's going to be part of Perl 6: is the plan to keep it minimal and rely on the CPAN|CP6AN a lot, or are there plans to make Perl 6 more "batteries-included" than Perl 5?
02:15 pmichaud checkin-it-out: we plan to distinguish "compiler" from "distribution"
02:15 pmichaud checkin-it-out: there will be multiple compilers, and multiple distributions
02:15 pmichaud some distributions may be more batteries included than others
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: e8e145d | pmichaud++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pir:
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: Remove no-longer-used $!type attribute.  (It may get replaced with
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: something else, though.)
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e​8e145d784d427bf11b1d0fceccfbfb00d036f51
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: 95cd73d | pmichaud++ | src/cheats/hll-compiler.pir:
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: Provide transcoding logic to HLL::Compiler, so that it can
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: transcode variable-width encodings to fixed-width encodings
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: for faster parsing, when possible.
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/9​5cd73d0acb7b8839e90a5b7c76755e1177d22d7
02:16 checkin-it-out Here http://perlcabal.org/syn/ I see:
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: 238f21b | pmichaud++ |  (5 files):
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: Bump PARROT_REVISION, update bootstraps.
02:16 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/2​38f21b6e0903fafe7a49e5a7f6650e95e20b0b2
02:16 checkin-it-out "30Standard perl library(TBD)"
02:16 jnthn pmichaud: It's after 3am, but I'm gonna build and check it out anyway ;-)
02:17 pmichaud huh
02:17 checkin-it-out I'm just curious to get an idea of how much will be specced, vs. how much will be implementation-dependent.
02:17 pmichaud checkin-it-out: our goal is to keep the core libraries as small as reasonably possible
02:18 checkin-it-out Ah. I see. Interesting. Thank you.
02:18 pmichaud and rely more on modules and distributions to provide the value-added features
02:18 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
02:18 Wolfman2000 To whoever knows this: when overriding .perl() and .Str(), should multi be used?
02:18 checkin-it-out That philosophy seems to have served Perl 5 well, even though it means for searching around cpanratings for me. :)
02:19 jnthn Wolfman2000: no
02:19 jnthn Wolfman2000: They don't take any arguments anyway (well, the invocant aside). :-)
02:20 pmichaud jnthn:  13.6sec for Actions.pm here
02:20 jnthn checkin-it-out: I think there'll be more encouragement for people to build "distributions", so there's an easy way to say "I want to do web stuff with Perl 6, so I can grab this package that gives me a compiler + a bunch of useful modules for web programming".
02:20 Wolfman2000 ...embedded comments now require backticks? What's wrong with just #?
02:20 pmichaud Wolfman2000: it was too easy to get things confused with   #{...}
02:21 pmichaud especially if someone was adding # to the beginnings of lines and wanted to comment out a block
02:21 jnthn checkin-it-out: Think of it a bit like Linux distros. There's the Linux kernel, but they all add other stuff.
02:21 colomon jnthn: a significant quantity of Str definitions in settings use multi...
02:21 jnthn colomon: orly? Hm.
02:21 Wolfman2000 Node.new(name => Str()<0xb5f37594>, next => Node.new(name => Str()<0xb5f50c38>, next => Failure()<0xb660aacc>))  <-- As a heads up, I think .Str looks ugly, even for what should be strings already.
02:21 checkin-it-out It's interesting to me that the Scheme community seems to be fighting the opposite battle right now: they're trying to wrangle multiple implementations together and settle on a more common spec.
02:22 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my Str $test = "Hi there."; say $test; say $test.Str;
02:22 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: Hi there.␤Str()<0x2b4fd73ece00>␤
02:22 jnthn Wolfman2000: youch.
02:22 pmichaud checkin-it-out: we have multiple implementations of a common spec already :)
02:22 Wolfman2000 Did I do this wrong as well?
02:22 pmichaud anyway, time for me to get some dinner
02:22 checkin-it-out Yes, but Scheme has them coming out the wazoo. :)
02:22 pmichaud jnthn: post a quick note to see if things are faster for you as well (and by how much)
02:23 checkin-it-out Thanks for the info pm.
02:23 colomon jnthn: really.  and I didn't write all of them.  honest.  :)
02:23 jnthn pmichaud: will do
02:23 pmichaud oh, I'm going to also do a profiling run and see if I see other optimizations that might bubble up now that we aren't swamped by that other problem
02:23 jnthn colomon: Curious - are they marked "is export" too?
02:23 colomon jnthn: nope
02:24 colomon jnthn: I know I thought multi was necessary in that case...
02:25 jnthn colomon: Ah. multi IIRC implies is export.
02:26 colomon jnthn: so Str(1/3) (for instance) is expected to work?
02:26 jnthn Thing is, TypeObj($x) is a special form, not just a normal sub call.
02:26 jnthn Because Str is a type object in the namespace
02:26 jnthn I think in the case of Str($x) it's *meant* to then call $x.Str
02:26 jnthn But then I've asked aobut things like
02:27 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my Str $test = "Hi there."; say $test; say $test.Str();
02:27 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: Hi there.␤Str()<0x2b2bda091028>␤
02:27 Wolfman2000 no difference. of course
02:27 jnthn colomon: My::Type::Like::This($x) and what that de-sugars to.
02:27 pmichaud Str is inheriting Object's .Str, and shouldn't.
02:27 jnthn colomon: And I'm not sure I've got a clear answer on that yet.
02:27 pmichaud Str should provide its own .Str, likely.
02:27 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, agree.
02:27 colomon pmichaud: agree
02:27 colomon Also Num its own .Num.
02:27 jnthn Heh
02:27 pmichaud oh dear, looks like my pprof output is 945MB
02:28 pmichaud that will take a while for pprof2cg to crunch
02:28 pmichaud time for some dinner, then
02:28 jnthn pmichaud: Long dinner. :-)
02:28 Wolfman2000 ...did I just make you guys have to do more work on Rakudo now?
02:28 jnthn Wolfman2000: Yep. :-D
02:28 colomon rakudo: say 1.0.Num;
02:28 pmichaud Wolfman2000: no, it's the same amount of work as before.   :)
02:28 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: 1␤
02:28 pmichaud Wolfman2000: you just prioritized the work a little differently for us :)
02:28 colomon rakudo: say 1.0.Num.Num;
02:28 jnthn Wolfman2000: Though for me (don't know about others), watching people using it and find faults just motivates me to make it btter. :-)
02:28 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: 1␤
02:28 jnthn *better
02:29 colomon rakudo: say "hello".Str.Str;
02:29 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: Str()<0x2b0f3af649d0>␤
02:29 checkin-it-out left #perl6
02:29 Wolfman2000 I'll take a name on the Thanks To section of the pod then.
02:29 pmichaud rakudo:  my $a = 'Hello';  say $a.Str;  say $a.Str;  say $a.Str.Str
02:29 p6eval rakudo fe6dd2: Str()<0x2b7c2cdb4410>␤Str()<0x2b7​c2cdb4410>␤Str()<0x2b7c2d7e6328>␤
02:29 pmichaud yup
02:29 jnthn oh gah, Rakudo's Configure.pl screws me over again.
02:30 * pmichaud sneaks away
02:30 jnthn lol
02:30 colomon any objections to my just adding Str.Str right now?
02:31 colomon (and should it be multi or no?  :)
02:31 Wolfman2000 colomon: If you're somehow able to figure it out, I don't object.
02:31 Wolfman2000 As far as multi...something's telling me yes.
02:31 * jnthn chases pmichaud, yelling something about him not updating PARROT_REVISION in rakudo's ng branch
02:32 jnthn colomon: Add it.
02:32 jnthn colomon: With multi, I need to ponder that a little more.
02:32 colomon okay, I'll try to get it in before bed.
02:32 jnthn colomon: It feels a tad odd to me.
02:33 jnthn colomon: But if the rest are doing the same thing, then I guess go for consistency.
02:33 jnthn That way, they might be wrong, but they'll at least be consistently wrong. ;-)
02:33 colomon jnthn: but it's not the rest, it's like half the rest.  there's no consistent pattern I could see.
02:33 jnthn Oh.
02:33 jnthn Well in that case, do what you like. :-)
02:34 jnthn My leaning is "not".
02:34 jnthn 'cus it doesn't make sense to me.
02:34 jnthn (that is, doesn't make sense why they'd want to be multi)
02:34 colomon jnthn: and I don't understand the issue enough to make a reasonable judgment.  I was just sprinkling multis everywhere because I couldn't see any drawbacks.
02:35 jnthn colomon: There probably aren't any.
02:35 colomon (though as I said, I'm only responsible for a couple of them in .Str in setting.)
02:35 jnthn colomon: I'm just not sure there's any wins either. :-)
02:35 colomon Where should I add a test for Str.Str?
02:35 yath joined #perl6
02:35 jnthn t/spec/...heck knows...
02:35 jnthn S32-str somewhere maybe
02:35 colomon S32-str?
02:36 colomon bother, none of those filenames look promising.
02:37 jnthn colomon: lol. I'm looking at them thinking the same. :-)
02:37 jnthn My second guess was gonna be S02-builtin_data_types/
02:38 jnthn But there's no str.t in there either!
02:38 Wolfman2000 I kind of have to side with S32-str myself
02:38 jnthn Yeah
02:38 colomon S32-type-casting/methods.t ?  looks like there is something likely in there already...
02:39 jnthn colomon: oh, that's not at all a bad choice.
02:39 jnthn I think you meant S13
02:39 colomon yes, right.
02:39 colomon already editing the file.  :)
02:39 jnthn Do that for now.
02:39 jnthn if moritz++ has a better idea, I'm sure he'll move it.
02:40 colomon Okay, two simple tests added.
02:41 colomon oh, actually one of the tests there already fails for this reason!
02:41 colomon lovely.
02:41 jnthn pmichaud: oh you complete show off.
02:41 jnthn pmichaud: actions.pm builds in 10 secons for me now.
02:41 Wolfman2000 colomon: Is it failing due to design or bug?
02:41 jnthn *seconds
02:42 colomon Wolfman2000: existing failure is marked as a Rakudo bug.
02:42 jnthn pmichaud++ # 27 times faster compilation of Actions.pm!
02:42 Wolfman2000 the $stringvar.Str() thing, right
02:42 Wolfman2000 Honestly, if a variable is a string, $stringvar.Str() should just return itself
02:43 jnthn Wolfman2000: Right. :-)
02:43 colomon method Str() { self; }
02:43 Wolfman2000 ...why does it feel like we're taking that from Python?
02:44 colomon compiled...
02:45 colomon make test passes...
02:45 jnthn Wolfman2000: 'cus Perl hapily steals from all the other languages? :-)
02:45 Wolfman2000 jnthn: wasn't aware of that history.
02:45 Wolfman2000 If anything, I thought everyone stole from Perl...or at least, their regexes
02:45 colomon My tests pass, the existing one still fails.
02:45 jnthn Wolfman2000: Well, it's all give and take.
02:46 jnthn Wolfman2000: I think Perl has kinda led the way in regexes really though, and I think Perl 6 is notching that up.
02:46 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "failing test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89966
02:47 colomon "got: undef"
02:47 Wolfman2000 ...what do we have to do to make paste.lisp.org allow colorizing as Perl anyway?
02:47 colomon looks like it's calling Str.Str instead of RT69378str.Str
02:49 jnthn colomon: That's...odd.
02:49 colomon yeah.
02:49 jnthn colomon: I'm not sure. That looks like a weird bug.
02:49 Wolfman2000 Can a class be a String?
02:49 colomon I'm going to go ahead and check in what I've got so y'all cam look at it more closely.  Then I will go to bed.  :)
02:49 jnthn colomon: I need to sleep now. I'll look another time. :-)
02:50 jnthn Gah, it's nearly 4am. If I make church tomorrow^Wtoday morning it'll be a miracle...
02:50 jnthn (insomnia and sleeping in until 1pm to compensate)--
02:50 jnthn Anyway, night all
02:52 colomon night
02:52 pugs_svn r29023 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add two simple tests for calling .Str on strings.
02:55 Wolfman2000 ...what's the difference between pugs and rakudo again?
02:57 dalek rakudo: 37d480a | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/setting/Str.pm:
02:57 dalek rakudo: Add Str.Str, with a caveat.
02:57 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​7d480af47c0a016163dab49e481dc04acfbbb7d
03:04 Tene Wolfman2000: Pugs: haskell, first major impl, sleeping for years.  Rakudo: parrot, currently being actively developed.
03:05 quietfanatic jnth++ # overloading trait_mod:<is> works great!
03:07 Wolfman2000 Tene: Then...why is it being reported on pugs_svn?
03:12 Tene Wolfman2000: why is what being reported where?
03:12 Wolfman2000 Tene: The robot, pugs_svn
03:12 Wolfman2000 Is that on pugs or rakudo?
03:12 Tene Wolfman2000: that's reporting commits to the pugs repository, which also houses the Perl 6 test suite.
03:13 Tene which is distro-independant.
03:14 Tene s/distro/impl/
03:14 Wolfman2000 So Pugs has the test suite, yet Rakudo is the one being worked on
03:14 Tene the pugs *repository* is where the official test suite is currently located.
03:15 Tene because pugs has a completely open commit policy
03:15 Tene rakudo has a stricter policy for who is allowed to commit, but we want to allow anybody to help with the spec tests.
03:15 Tene so it was just left in the pugs repo... no reason to move it.
03:16 Tene there are a few other Perl 6 projects being worked on in the pugs repo.
03:17 Tene there's an evalbot in there, I think the perl6.org website is in there, a couple other smaller compiler projects...
03:17 Wolfman2000 Tene: I know feather.perl6.nl is nosted on there
03:17 Wolfman2000 hosted*
03:17 Wolfman2000 I commited some fixes to index.html
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03:23 quietfanatic I'm getting a "Internal Error: Rakudo_binding_bind_signature passed invalid signature"
03:26 pointme joined #perl6
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03:27 mubot joined #perl6
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03:28 mubot joined #perl6
03:28 carlin o_o that's three times in a row mubot has segfaulted trying to start up
03:30 mubot joined #perl6
03:33 quietfanatic I think this error has to do with my overloaded trait_mod:<is> interfering with "is export"--but it shouldn't.
03:37 eternaleye We need a paste.perl6.org
03:38 eternaleye Preferably with P6Regex-based highlighting
03:39 Wolfman2000 I may be able to make a database for planning a pastebin, but I would need help with some of the other features such as the regex highlighting and nickname remembering.
03:40 Wolfman2000 Perhaps my web development skills will come in handy
03:40 Wolfman2000 ...no psql. Crap. Alright, mysql will have to do.
03:40 Wolfman2000 Can't bother Juerd with everything.
03:43 quietfanatic Erk this is a (different) weird bug...
03:43 quietfanatic rakudo: BEGIN { .signature.perl.say for &trait_mod:<is>.candidates }; say &trait_mod:<is>.defined
03:43 p6eval rakudo 37d480: :(Object $child where all(), Object $parent)␤:(Object $child where all(), Any :hidden($hidden)!)␤:(Code $block, Any $arg?, Any :export($export)!)␤:(Code $block, Any :default($default)!)␤:(ContainerDeclarand $c, Any :rw($rw)!)␤1␤
03:43 quietfanatic This is fine (note the 1 at the end)
03:44 quietfanatic rakudo: module M; BEGIN { .signature.perl.say for &trait_mod:<is>.candidates }; say &trait_mod:<is>.defined
03:44 p6eval rakudo 37d480: :(Object $child where all(), Object $parent)␤:(Object $child where all(), Any :hidden($hidden)!)␤:(Code $block, Any $arg?, Any :export($export)!)␤:(Code $block, Any :default($default)!)␤:(ContainerDeclarand $c, Any :rw($rw)!)␤0␤
03:44 quietfanatic See the 0?
03:44 Wolfman2000 quietfanatic: I do.
03:44 quietfanatic Actually that BEGIN is quite unnecessary to reproduce.
03:45 quietfanatic rakudo: say &trait_mod:<is>.defined; module M {say &trait_mod:<is>.defined>}
03:45 p6eval rakudo 37d480: Confused at line 2, near ">}"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
03:45 quietfanatic rakudo: say &trait_mod:<is>.defined; module M {say &trait_mod:<is>.defined}
03:45 p6eval rakudo 37d480: 1␤0␤
03:45 quietfanatic Not defined in a module :(
03:45 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "eternaleye: Rough database plan for new pastebin. Unsure of pword file, but I don't want anyone to claim a name that others use." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89971
03:46 quietfanatic rakudo: say &trait_mod:<is>.defined; module M {say &CORE::trait_mod:<is>.defined}
03:46 p6eval rakudo 37d480: Confused at line 2, near ":<is>.defi"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
03:47 quietfanatic Is &trait_mod:<is> in the module referring to M::<&trait_mod:\<is\>> instead?
03:47 quietfanatic (a similarly-named subroutine but in the M:: namespace)
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03:53 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: your thoughts on my paste?
03:54 eternaleye Wolfman2000: looking at it now
03:54 Wolfman2000 *nods*
03:55 eternaleye Wolfman2000: I'm not sure I understand it
03:55 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: It's a database plan
03:55 Wolfman2000 to organize the pastes
03:58 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Yes, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Are these tables in an SQL database? Are these directories? It's very light on any form of explanation - it's like giving the datatypes of the elements in a struct, without giving any information on how the members (or the struct) will be accessed/used/etc.
03:58 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: my apologies on that. They are tables in a SQL database. At least, that's the plan.
03:59 eternaleye It's data without an algorithm
04:00 pmichaud hello again, back from dinner
04:00 pmichaud 02:31  * jnthn chases pmichaud, yelling something about him not updating PARROT_REVISION in rakudo's ng branch
04:00 Wolfman2000 evening pmichaud
04:00 mubot joined #perl6
04:00 pmichaud I did update PARROT_REVISION!
04:01 pmichaud ...I just forgot to commit+push...  :-(
04:01 eternaleye Well, there are a few things I'd recommend. One - How do you plan to handle passwords? I see the pword field, but how do you plan to store them? Hashed? Hashed and salted? For an example of a high-profile site that didn't properly secure its passwords, look at the semirecent PerlMonks snafu.
04:01 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: This was meant to be a base plan. I'm well aware of the implementation that needs to take place. I do have other websites to my name after all. ;)
04:02 eternaleye Cool.
04:02 Wolfman2000 I wanted to know if the data part was fine. I know of the algorithms to implement for the database part.
04:02 Wolfman2000 Thank you for your concern though.
04:03 eternaleye Also, I recommend looking at http://ix.io for a _really_ simple pastebin implementation that actually does really well. Its commandline client in particular is very well-done
04:04 Wolfman2000 ...alright, time to play the ignorant card. Why should I worry about having a commandline client?
04:05 eternaleye The only things I can think of that it _doesn't_ do and which are desirable are a.) the channel notification thing that paste.lisp.org does and b.) soem form of 'paste channels' so that you can group pastes of a certain type (like how lisppaste has a perl6 section)
04:06 eternaleye Wolfman2000: As far as a commandline client goes, there have been a _lot_ of times when I've needed to get input on an issue when I don't have a browser.
04:06 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: I'll admit that I could use some help with the channel notification part. As far as "paste channels" goes...hmm...is there perhaps a reason to allow a paste to go to multiple channels at the same time?
04:07 eternaleye Almost everyone has irssi+wget/curl/whatever. MFar fewer have links/elinks/lynx
04:07 eternaleye s/M//
04:07 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: you mean a text browser? Ah.
04:07 Wolfman2000 I wish you said that in the first place. I can code for a text browser easily.
04:07 Wolfman2000 ...well...almost easily.
04:08 Wolfman2000 Perl 6 will involve more UTF-8 than before.
04:08 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Possibly (think parrot and rakudo both being involved in a bug), but it would complicate implementation greatly
04:08 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Also, pasting things is _very_ difficult without X
04:09 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: You notice that I used groups and pastes separately, right? My thinking here is as follows:
04:09 eternaleye I may want to paste a file. It's much easier to go to a terminal and type 'ix $filename' than it is to open it in an editor, copy the text, go to a webpage, and paste it
04:09 Wolfman2000 ...holding my thought while I read that
04:10 eternaleye Plus, stdin. <command> | ix gives instant pasting of logs
04:10 Wolfman2000 ...so that's what you mean by a command line client.
04:10 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Yes, The ix client can also fetch pastes given the pasteid, though
04:10 Wolfman2000 I'll need a partner for this one then. I'm better with the web development part than the command line part.
04:11 eternaleye Wolfman2000: If you implement the same POST API as ix.io, or very similar, we can basically steal their client ;D
04:11 eternaleye GPL++
04:11 meppel joined #perl6
04:12 Wolfman2000 ...the GPL may be useful here, but...I admit I have my own ideas on URL implementation.
04:12 Wolfman2000 And it's that that I want to discuss here.
04:12 mubot joined #perl6
04:13 Wolfman2000 Some basics first: I'm assuming Catalyst::Perl: I have some experience with it, and this is a perl channel after all. Second: assume URL is where it's located for now.
04:13 eternaleye Well, the root page of ix.io gives a rather complete description - sufficient to interact with the server using only curl or wget. THat means it should be trivial to adapt it to fit your ideals.
04:13 mubot joined #perl6
04:13 eternaleye Okay
04:14 Wolfman2000 I have Pastes and Groups separately for the purpose of annotations. I would say http://URL/GroupID/GroupNum to load the specific paste, or GroupID on its own to load all of the pastes in that group.
04:14 Wolfman2000 If one wanted to see all of the pastes of the user, then we could go into URL/user/UserID or something along those lines.
04:15 eternaleye Okay
04:15 eternaleye Might I suggest URL/user/$username and URL/group/$groupid, so that people can look up all posts by as pecific user as well? That also makes it more extensible
04:15 Wolfman2000 What I'm right now torn about...do we allow multiple people to have the same username? Should we try to lock a screen name to one person only?
04:15 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: That's fair.
04:16 Wolfman2000 As long as we enforce that usernames have to have at least one letter.
04:17 eternaleye How about this: If a username has been 'registered' and given a password, only accept pastes with that password as belonging to that username. Otherwise, free-for-all (the IRC system, basically)
04:17 Wolfman2000 so the user's table should include an isRegistered field?
04:17 eternaleye Wolfman2000: I mean the actual text 'user' to denote that after the next slash is a username, and 'group' to denote that after the next slash is a groupid. No restrictions on usernames needed then.
04:18 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Simpler. Only add to the table when registering. If the username isn't in the table, short-circuit.
04:19 Wolfman2000 Otherwise, have all non registered posts point to an anonymous user. Fair enough.
04:19 Wolfman2000 We may want to restrict viewing the anonymous user's posts publicly though.
04:19 eternaleye Ack, I think I made a mistake in my thinking. One sec.
04:20 Wolfman2000 take your time
04:20 eternaleye How are you planning to group posts by user? As a list of ids in a field of the user table, or by selecting from pastes where user = $whatever ?
04:21 eternaleye I was assuming the latter
04:21 Wolfman2000 the second one
04:21 Wolfman2000 the first one doesn't exactly allow for good table design if I'm interpreting your statement right
04:22 eternaleye Okay. Then you don't need to map them onto an anonymous user. You've already validated that the username they want isn't registered; therefore, just give the paste the username they want!
04:22 bpetering joined #perl6
04:22 bpetering hai everyone :)
04:22 Wolfman2000 ...okay, I need to back up
04:23 eternaleye Simplest thing that could possibly work etc.
04:23 eternaleye hi bpetering!
04:23 bpetering howdy eternaleye, Wolfman2000 :)
04:23 Wolfman2000 I think there should be a table of registered users, and the pastes table should point to a registered user. If the paste is NOT of a registered user, should we still include a username field in the paste? Or do we put all of the names in the users table, and just have a boolean to see if a user is registered?
04:23 eternaleye have them type in a username when they submit a paste. Blank gets anonymous user, anything registered prompts for password, unregistered gets accepted w/o question
04:24 eternaleye Wolfman2000: I was assuming 'username' field was a string
04:24 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: If the person is unregistered, how do we get them to register?
04:24 gfx joined #perl6
04:24 eternaleye URL/register
04:24 eternaleye Separate form
04:25 Wolfman2000 alright, fair enough on that
04:25 carlin What happens if someone registers a username that has been used anonymously in the past?
04:25 Wolfman2000 carlin: ...good question.
04:26 eternaleye Hm, that is a problem.
04:27 Wolfman2000 That's partly why I think unregistered people should just be sent to anonymous
04:27 Wolfman2000 Either that, or we do away with the login stuff entirely.
04:27 eternaleye I'd say we can explicitly state that there are no guarantees about paste lifetimes made with unregistered usernames, and just wipe them on registration
04:27 eternaleye All's fair if you predeclare
04:28 Wolfman2000 ...tough love, but fair enough
04:28 eternaleye no-username pastes will be guaranteed to live for the specified lifetime - just give people the choice between vanity + security, vanity - security, and security - vanity
04:30 Wolfman2000 ...what's the difference between vanity - security and security - vanity? They seem similar sounding
04:31 eternaleye Vanity without security = unregistered username (no lifetime guarantees, but it has your name). Security without vaity = no username (Duration guarantee, but no associated name)
04:31 eternaleye *vanity
04:32 eternaleye subtraction is not commutative ;D
04:32 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: thanks for that reminder
04:33 Wolfman2000 Alright...next questions. 1) Should we host this on feather, even though this means whatever password we put on the database won't be super secure? 2) Does feather allow us to cpan and install perl 5 modules?
04:35 eternaleye I'd say security is probably not a big deal _yet_ - it will be mainly used for sharing snippets of p6 code for the forseeable future. When necessary, it can be moved and the password changed.
04:35 eternaleye Also makes it easy for it to be on the perl6.org domain, which is already hosted on feather
04:36 Wolfman2000 That answers my 1st question, and my unasked 3rd question: whether I'd have to buy a domain name.
04:36 eternaleye and IIRC Juerd admins it, which means at most you'd have to ask him - and he's in-channel
04:37 c9s joined #perl6
04:38 Wolfman2000 ...alright, I'll find out the 2nd one
04:39 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Umm...guessing we shouldn't mess with cpan yet." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89973
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: 57d2a44 | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: Add <block> subrule.
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/5​7d2a441a5662232b0712831abfa400f0f290965
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: 5559916 | pmichaud++ |  (3 files):
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: Add closure interpolation.
04:39 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/5​55991689e1f6e4a254566538d2d02fa3dc7c1e8
04:40 xp_prg joined #perl6
04:42 eternaleye Wolfman2000: What are you thinking as far as the POST API goes?
04:42 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: browser based or command line based?
04:43 eternaleye CLI
04:43 Wolfman2000 ...I'm primarily thinking of the browser end, I must admit.
04:43 Wolfman2000 The big issue I'm having is the URL format suggested by ix.io
04:44 Wolfman2000 I don't like the idea of including so much in the URL.
04:44 Wolfman2000 Plus, I'm unsure about pasting multiple things in one go.
04:45 eternaleye Wolfman2000: The thing is, the ix.io client is easily adapted to anything matching /URL\/<string.?\?[<key>'='<value>]*/
04:45 Wolfman2000 Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear
04:45 eternaleye And multipasting is not particularly important.
04:45 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: If we use Catalyst::Perl, I'd rather NOT use key=value. I'd rather use /value/value2
04:45 Wolfman2000 And Route the URL as required
04:46 eternaleye Although it might be best to adapt their client to Perl (5|6) (it's in python)
04:46 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Yes, but what about optional keys? What if I want to specify key1 and key3, but leave key2 undefined?
04:46 Wolfman2000 I caught the python comments. One of my websites, http://www.pumpproedits.com/, is in Pylons (Python framework) (hopefully that page still works). I suggest we adapt to Catalyst::Perl, which uses Perl 5.
04:47 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: Let's go over the contents then.
04:47 Wolfman2000 f:N: urlencoded contents. I assume that's the paste stuff. That should NEVER be in the URL.
04:47 eternaleye Wolfman2000: I'm not suggesting using their server; just taking their client as a model of what a 'good CLI user interface' should be
04:48 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Agreed
04:48 Wolfman2000 name:N: filename...ah, I see what you mean by command line. Rip the file contents, make those the paste.
04:48 Wolfman2000 filename: should be required honestly. If more than one file is sent in, more power to you.
04:49 Wolfman2000 ext:N: filetype: irrelevant.
04:49 eternaleye Wolfman2000: I totally agree the file contents should be POSTed, not uploaded via a GET URL
04:49 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Stdin.
04:49 eternaleye No filename in that case.
04:49 eternaleye We could default that to 'Standard Input' though
04:49 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: possibly. I don't know if we need an ext if we're using the filename though.
04:50 Wolfman2000 login: "quote" the name.
04:51 eternaleye Wolfman2000: The way ix does it is it submits non-extension filename as filename, and extension as ext. It splits off the extension when given a file, so the server doesn't need to paste the filename.
04:51 Wolfman2000 token: instead of including the token/password here, have CLI query the database, see if the name exists, and then prompt for a password.
04:51 keeth joined #perl6
04:51 eternaleye *parse
04:51 Wolfman2000 rm: not allowing people to delete that easily
04:51 Wolfman2000 id:N: no replacing easily either.
04:51 eternaleye Wolfman2000: The thing is, if it's being used at the end of the pipe, how will it read a password?
04:52 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: end of a pipe? Clarify that.
04:52 eternaleye <command> | client
04:52 eternaleye Unix pipes
04:52 eternaleye It won't be able to read a password from standard input, since that';s where the data is coming from
04:53 Wolfman2000 ...honestly, do you like the idea of people putting in a plain text password in the command line? Or am I missing something?
04:54 eternaleye 1.) Only root can read their files (.bash_history) unless they're idiots. 2.) THe client isn't long-running, so the chance of someone seeing it in the process table with something like 'ps aux' is very low
04:55 Wolfman2000 ...so we need to define the command line process.
04:55 Wolfman2000 along with how to pass files along.
04:56 eternaleye Yeah
04:56 bpetering Wolfman2000: what if you get the wrong file by (honest) mistake?
04:56 Wolfman2000 bpetering: then the file pastes
04:56 Tene see also, tools/dev/nopaste.pl in the parrot repo
04:56 eternaleye bpetering: I'm thinking we should only allow deletions whn authenticated
04:57 eternaleye bpetering: The choice is between allowing people to redact their stuff when authenticated, and preventing malicious users from deleting unauthenticated pastes
04:57 bpetering eternaleye: sounds good
04:58 eternaleye s/ authenticated/unauthenticated/
04:58 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: Permission to PM you?
04:59 eternaleye Granted
04:59 Tene eternaleye: Permission to steal your wallet?
04:59 bpetering Tene: that's rather... malicious :)
05:00 Tene s/: that//
05:00 eternaleye Tene: Denied
05:00 Tene dammit
05:00 Tene Talk about malicious...
05:02 bpetering Tene: me? think i'm getting confused with someone else... :)
05:02 Tene No, I was saying that it was malicious for eternaleye to deny me.
05:03 Wolfman2000 Tene: no wallet stealing
05:03 bpetering Tene: oh, sorry... my mistake
05:04 Wolfman2000 Alright...I can make the database structure that I'm thinking of tomorrow. I hope to get to bed within an hour.
05:05 Wolfman2000 anything else that needs discussing of this subject?
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05:09 bpetering Wolfman2000: i don't think so :)
05:09 eternaleye Tene: Besides, KDE encrypts my password wallet with AES
05:09 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Maybe we can call the client 6p (perl6 Paste), so it's nice and short like is :D
05:09 eternaleye AGHHHHH I'm lagging so ridiculously badly. I should not have tried testing BtrFS' online resize with a 250g delta. Now it's in kernelspace and I can't even kill it, despite it eating all my disk bandwidth.
05:11 Wolfman2000 We'll argue over the name later. There are still some things I need to take care of before bed.
05:11 Wolfman2000 1) finish up a homework assignment. 2) actually take care of that linked list implementation I'm behind on doing.
05:12 bpetering Wolfman2000: good luck with the homework assignment :)
05:12 Wolfman2000 bpetering: the homework is simple
05:12 Wolfman2000 just write a report based on my teacher observation experience this past Wednesday
05:14 bpetering Wolfman2000: did you learn anything interesting? :)
05:15 Wolfman2000 bpetering: last wednesday, or in general?
05:15 bpetering Wolfman2000: in general
05:16 Wolfman2000 Wilmington, NC does not offer programming classes in high schools. I'll have to just accept Math...and hope I don't get forced to teach History
05:17 Wolfman2000 I'll say more once I make my post
05:23 quietfanatic phenny: tell jnthn Unfortunately it looks like overloading trait_mod:<is> doesn't make a versatile subclassing hook, because the left argument given to it is an unnamed and uninitialized ClassHOW object.
05:23 phenny quietfanatic: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
05:24 Wolfman2000 right, phenny
05:24 diakopter quietfanatic: but you could grab it from the .source it throws by throwing and catching an exception :D
05:24 Wolfman2000 phenny: tell Juerd Planning a Perl 6 Pastebin: any assistance you can provide would be appreciated. Contact myself or eternaleye for more information.
05:24 phenny Wolfman2000: yeah, yeah
05:24 quietfanatic .source?
05:24 diakopter the error message, I mean..
05:24 Wolfman2000 ...did phenny pass the info on, or is phenny going to ignore me on that
05:25 diakopter Juerd: hilite
05:25 carlin Wolfman2000: phenny does that from time to time, IIRC in its source it has a 1/1000 chance to say that
05:25 diakopter nice
05:25 Wolfman2000 carlin: So where's my money for hitting a mini jackpot?
05:25 quietfanatic diakopter: I don't think that'll work because it's just a bare ClassHOW object that doesn't have any metadata.  It only expects me to add a parent class before it initializes it properly.
05:26 diakopter oh
05:26 bpetering Wolfman2000: your odds are better with hugme, it'll blush 1 time in 100 :)
05:26 carlin http://inamidst.com/phenny/modules/tell.py # CTRL+F for "yeah, yeah"
05:26 Wolfman2000 okay, assignment submitted
05:26 quietfanatic I don't think there's anything I can throw and catch that contains the name of the class that hasn't been defined yet :)
05:27 Wolfman2000 I got the super rare one. :D
05:28 quietfanatic But surely the name must exist somewhere higher in the stack, I just can't reach it. :(
05:28 Wolfman2000 ...alright, this may be a silly question here, but...why do we have a python bot in a perl room?
05:29 bpetering Wolfman2000: thievery is a form of laziness? :)
05:30 Wolfman2000 *shrugs*
05:30 Wolfman2000 Now, to my linked list...hopefully
05:31 bpetering Wolfman2000: what're you blocking on?
05:31 Wolfman2000 bpetering: blocking on? that's a new one on me
05:31 bpetering .oO( we need a definition bot... )
05:32 carlin I could port Purl to Perl 6
05:33 bpetering ... but i'll be happy to help: "X is preventing Y from being accomplished" === "Y is blocking on X"
05:33 Wolfman2000 bpetering: Starting fresh for this one.
05:33 Wolfman2000 This time, I built the Node class separately, and got that tested. Check the IRC logs for that one.
05:34 bpetering carlin: purl seems cool. :)
05:35 carlin bpetering: you obviously haven't seen jnthn and masak complaining about how annoying it is? :p
05:36 frew joined #perl6
05:37 bpetering Wolfman2000: #89963?
05:37 Wolfman2000 bpetering: I don't recall which paste it was, sorry.
05:37 eternaleye carlin: Maybe make one change to purl, and require a leading '?' (ignoring lines that are _only_ '?')
05:38 bpetering carlin: can't be as annoying as lambdabot... unless you made it trigger on vowels, or something :|
05:42 bpetering even lambdabot is useful though. just a bit trigger-happy :)
05:42 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Null PMC access in type() in Main <-- Umm...what does this mean?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89974
05:44 eternaleye bpetering: lambdabot's only really trigger-happy in perl-based channels, because arrays lead to leading @-signs
05:45 carlin and rakudo's REPL leads to leading > signs
05:47 Wolfman2000 ...is this going to be one of those questions where I have to wait for the morning crew?
05:47 bpetering well, i couldn't have written lambdabot. i guess i'll stop complaining until i write my own. :)
05:48 carlin Wolfman2000: a Null PMC access is sort of like a rakudo segfault
05:49 Wolfman2000 ...just once, I'd like to be able to make code that just WORKS
05:50 carlin if you had a working version of that and you know what you changed to caused it would help
05:50 Wolfman2000 And I don't mean just simple square root problems.
05:51 Wolfman2000 carlin: This is my only version. Well...my feather box has node_good.pl, but that's before I implemented the linked list stuff. The Node class by itself worked.
05:51 Wolfman2000 ...well, except for when you tried to Str() a Str, but that's a rakudobug
05:53 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89974 "Rakudo must not like inner classes. Still an error though: invoke() not implemented in class 'Node'" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89974#1
05:54 Wolfman2000 ...and when I google the error message, paste 89892 is the first result. Great, I'm famous.
05:56 carlin Try changing new Node(""); to Node.new
05:56 Wolfman2000 carlin: ...did I make the same mistake again?
05:57 Wolfman2000 ...BAH
05:58 Wolfman2000 at least I have a new error now
05:59 bpetering Wolfman2000: which error?
05:59 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 annotated #89974 "set_integer_keyed() not implemented in class 'Sub' in Main <-- Umm...my classes are LinkedList and Node." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89974#2
05:59 Wolfman2000 bpetering: ^
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06:03 bpetering Wolfman2000: some things just aren't ready yet... eventually they'll "just work" :)
06:04 Wolfman2000 ...so even though I've designed the basics of the linkedlist properly this time, I still can't make it work. OY
06:04 bpetering Wolfman2000: frustrating, isn't it?
06:06 Wolfman2000 bpetering: Yes. :(
06:06 Wolfman2000 Looks like I'll have to wait for whatever's going on in the ng branch to be merged to the main branch, then rebuild rakudo
06:07 Wolfman2000 Unless you have another idea.
06:10 bpetering sometimes leading by example works wonders... rather than waiting, i mean...
06:11 Wolfman2000 you mean I should use the ng branch?
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06:29 bpetering Wolfman2000: sorry, was afk - needed a drink :)
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: ee6743c | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: Convert package_def to use <block> instead of <pblock>.
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/e​e6743c5c0ab9c2736fce89f34bd99d1cc78d873
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: 1e2187a | pmichaud++ | t/nqp/38-quotes.t:
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: Fix bug in interpolated closure test.
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/1​e2187ac4266ce48c65a650f666a350ba659c1ad
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: 457fa04 | pmichaud++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: Update handling of block arity.
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/4​57fa041277c1060dbbb49f53b64287fe62ea231
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: 992b220 | pmichaud++ |  (3 files):
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: Enable pointy blocks.
06:30 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/9​92b220de66a436f108399e5c393526a252a1485
06:30 Wolfman2000 bpetering: that's fine. apparently I never remembered to turn off /away, so I was apparently away the hwole day. :P
06:32 bpetering Wolfman2000: :P
06:33 Wolfman2000 but I've stayed up too late, so I'm off to bed for real.
06:33 Wolfman2000 We can talk more later.
06:35 bpetering Wolfman2000: sounds good.
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10:04 moritz_ good morning
10:11 dalek rakudo: 97ced10 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
10:11 dalek rakudo: [t/spectest.data] track file rename
10:11 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9​7ced10559899d15d4659ccab503edddb17742d1
10:11 fax joined #perl6
10:15 Woodi good morning
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10:17 Woodi i got impression that this # is overloaded like Lisp brackets :)
10:18 Woodi kind a virtual room would be good for it :)
10:18 Woodi with nice graohics and 3d space :)
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10:40 moritz_ the rakudo ng branch builds in 28s (with three jobs parallel on 2 cores)
10:43 moritz_ it even passes a few subtests of the spectests ;-)
10:43 Woodi woow :)
10:43 Woodi any prediction on master merge time ? :)
10:44 moritz_ this month
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10:45 Woodi ng branch is that refactoring to nqp ?
10:46 moritz_ not only that; it is also a rewrite of most of rakudo :)
10:46 moritz_ at least the parser and action methods
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10:47 Woodi as a user i mainly care about tests passed and build proces :)
10:47 Woodi and stories about development proces :>
10:47 Woodi love stories :)
10:48 moritz_ then read jnthn's and pmichaud's blogs ;-)
10:49 Woodi moritz_: i hear onece something like "monadic revolution"... i am specially interested how it grow in perl community...
10:49 Woodi begin was sponsored by Audrey..
10:49 Woodi and what happens next ?
10:50 * moritz_ only know nomads
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10:51 Woodi :)
10:52 Woodi nvm. but i am realy concern about this story... it is big paradigm shift from structural-objects to something more :)
10:52 moritz_ I always viewed monads as a concept to work around statelessness in haskell, and thus superfluous in Perl
10:53 moritz_ but maybe I'm on the totally wrong track here
10:53 moritz_ or maybe just nobody explained to properly why we might want/need explicit monads in Perl
10:54 Woodi i can be wrong... for me monads are like sandboxes with cleaners or just classes... but i thinked perl6 want to be functional language too...
10:57 Woodi or maybe extracting lazines component from functional languages is everything what we need ? :)
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11:00 moritz_ we do have other features from functional languages
11:01 moritz_ like multi sub, easy currying, closures
11:06 Woodi i am new on that names... - no idea when to use that features...
11:07 Woodi closures looks just like static fields...
11:07 Woodi btw. do rakudo have threads atm ?
11:08 moritz_ no
11:09 Woodi but planned ?
11:09 moritz_ planned, yes
11:10 moritz_ afk, lunch
11:10 Woodi smacznego :)
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11:11 pkkm can I ask about perl regular expressions here?
11:12 Woodi yes
11:12 Woodi but you should not ask if you can ask - info in topic usually:)
11:14 Woodi pkkm: polak ?
11:14 pkkm I want my pcre to catch all google ads. I don't know what I did wrong. Screenshot from online regex tester: http://img32.imageshack.us/i​mg32/3122/zrzutekranu1y.png
11:14 pkkm Woodi: tal
11:14 pkkm tak*
11:15 pkkm In that case pcre will be the same as perl regex.
11:15 Woodi mainly should :) perl5 like
11:16 Woodi here is perl6 # so a lot of new syntax ...
11:20 Woodi pkkm: you want match everything in one step...
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11:21 Woodi pkkm: maybe first catch right <script> ... </scrip> then extract what you need ?
11:21 pkkm Woodi, will it change anything?
11:22 pkkm anyway, I need this pcre in one line
11:23 Woodi pkkm: iw will make more clear regex for example
11:23 pkkm Woodi: thany You.
11:24 Woodi and error on top of image can mean that you put \ before some letter which isn't a modifier
11:24 Woodi at least not in pcre
11:25 pkkm I put it before * in (?:/\*.*\*/)?
11:25 pkkm but how could it be done without it?
11:26 pkkm \s* - whitespaces
11:26 pkkm Woodi: Do you want me to send You this pcre in plaintext?
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11:27 Woodi i think this regex is overcomplicated... for example you match two <scripts> at once and second looks like constant...
11:28 Woodi why put second in regexp ?
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11:32 pkkm I want to catch whole block of code responsible for google ads
11:32 pkkm I need it
11:32 pkkm It will be ettercap filter
11:32 pkkm look at this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/313194/
11:33 Woodi if you need blocks then catch blocks and throw away details from inside
11:34 pkkm It's intended to catch ALL google ads, even with comments and additional/removed whitespaces.
11:35 pkkm Woodi: I need to catch whole google ads code.
11:36 pkkm Woodi: And I need it in the exact form it's on website
11:36 Woodi i think that for catching blocks there is not need to describe everything inside blocks
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11:38 Woodi just match <script> google_ad_client ap to FIRST </script> and then next <script with syndication
11:39 Woodi you describe everything inside
11:40 Woodi if you want to extract more details from script blocks then use catching ()
11:41 pkkm Woodi: and what if someone has broken website like: http://paste.ubuntu.com/313202/
11:42 pkkm my pcre needs to be "bullet proof"
11:44 Woodi first script with google sindication is not ads
11:45 Woodi so you need to match only scripts with google_ad_client
11:45 pkkm <script type="text/javascript"      src="http://pagead2.googlesyndica​tion.com/pagead/show_ads.js">    </script>
11:46 pkkm it's responsible for showing ads
11:46 Woodi eg: /<!-- .+ google_ad_client = .+ -->/
11:46 pkkm I want this regex to catch WHOLE code responsible for ads
11:46 Woodi ah, right :)
11:46 Woodi look
11:47 Woodi html allows to send scripts not in order
11:47 Woodi so you cannot expect sindication will be just after google_ad_client
11:48 pkkm this regex is intended to be multipurpose, from counting ads, through marking them, to commenting them out
11:48 pkkm pcre*
11:48 Woodi so you need two regexes
11:49 Woodi it is not important yet
11:50 Woodi just make regex match what you want then use it for substitution
11:52 pkkm how can I make some strings to be matched, independent on order, with repetitions possible?
11:52 Woodi use separated regezes
11:52 Woodi keepp it simple
11:53 pkkm look at (?:(?#CAW - Comments And Whitespaces)(?:/\*.*\*/)?\s*.{​0,5}(?:/\*.*\*/)?(?#END-CAW))
11:53 Woodi terrible :)
11:53 pkkm (?:(?#CAW - Comments And Whitespaces)(?:/\*.*\*/)?\s*.{​0,5}(?:/\*.*\*/)?(?#END-CAW))
11:54 pkkm if I could do something i told about before, I wouldn't have to repeat this
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11:55 masak oh hai, #perl6.
11:55 Woodi hi masak++
11:55 masak I find the backlog's discussion with emma very interesting.
11:55 pkkm it would look like noorder("(?:/\*.*\*/)?","\s*",".{0,5}")
11:56 masak emma: welcome, and thanks for posing interesting questions.
11:56 pkkm Woodi 2^
11:56 masak sjohnson: (re regex help) no problem :)
11:57 pkkm Woodi, it would be much simpler
11:58 masak sjohnson: (calling Wolfman2000 'wolfpig', and receiving a negative reaction) that's not a 'tough crowd', that's you being rude, unfortunately.
11:58 Woodi pkkm: use (something|something_other)
11:59 masak or sometimes [something|something_other]
11:59 Woodi masak: in perl5 or pcre ?
11:59 masak in Perl 6 regexes.
12:00 Woodi in p6 [ ] is still class ?
12:00 masak sorry, were you talking about Perl 5 regexes? I don't have the entire context? :)
12:00 masak Woodi: no, it's a non-capturing group.
12:00 Woodi ok
12:00 pkkm masak: about pcre
12:00 masak kind of like (?:something|something_else) in Perl 5.
12:01 pkkm masak: ettercap pcre :)
12:01 pkkm look at context
12:01 pkkm <pkkm> how can I make some strings to be matched, independent on order, with repetitions possible?
12:01 Woodi pcre is only one :)
12:01 pkkm <pkkm> (?:(?#CAW - Comments And Whitespaces)(?:/\*.*\*/)?\s*.{​0,5}(?:/\*.*\*/)?(?#END-CAW))
12:01 pkkm <pkkm> it would look like noorder("(?:/\*.*\*/)?","\s*",".{0,5}")
12:01 Woodi it's c library :)
12:02 pkkm masak: so (sth|sth2) is not able to do that
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12:02 masak pmichaud: yes, but it captures.
12:04 pkkm Woodi, so how can I make it to be independent on order?
12:04 masak er, pkkm, not pmichaud. :/
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12:05 Woodi pkkm: use alternatives: |
12:06 Woodi pkkm: (<script google_ad_client|<script syndication)
12:07 Woodi pkkm: btw do you are allowed to sniff that stuff ?
12:07 pkkm Woodi: so will (?:(?:/\*.*\*/)?|\s*|.{0,5})* capture /*sth*/saf/*sth*/          /*comment*/
12:07 Woodi private or inside-company ?
12:07 pkkm Woodi: my home network
12:07 pkkm so I think I am
12:10 Woodi looks it will match *sth* and match saf and match last one separatelly
12:11 pkkm and will (?:(?:/\*.*\*/)?|\s*|.{0,5})* capture /*sth*/saf/*sth*/          /*comment*//*sth*/saf/*sth*/    /*sth*/saf/*sth*/          /*comment*/      /*comment*/
12:11 pkkm ?
12:11 pkkm what do You mean 'separately'?
12:12 pkkm whole pcre returns true/false
12:12 pkkm so how can something be separate?
12:13 Woodi ehmmi think /\*.*\*/ will match from start to end
12:14 masak pkkm, Woodi: so, how did you come to be discussing this on #perl6?
12:15 Woodi just anseringbot i am...
12:15 Woodi sory :)
12:15 masak no problem. just mind the signal-to-noise ratio.
12:15 pkkm Woodi: oh yes :D
12:16 * Woodi is answering&asking addicted :)
12:17 pkkm can (sth|sth2) catch more than one time?
12:17 Woodi pkkm: yes, default * and + are gready
12:17 masak greedy.
12:18 Woodi right :) and both in p5 and p6
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12:20 pkkm so (?:sth1|sth2|sth3|sth4)* would do?
12:21 moritz_ std: / (?:sth1|sth2|sth3|sth4)* /
12:21 Woodi will match one of sth, as far as it can
12:21 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/Q6fH9m0Qzs line 1:␤------> [32m/ (?:[33m⏏[31msth1|sth2|sth3|sth4)* /[0m␤    expecting quantmod␤FAILED 00:01 104m␤
12:22 Woodi std: / (sth1|sth2|sth3|sth4)* /
12:22 p6eval std 29023: ok 00:01 103m␤
12:23 Woodi std: "sth" ~~ / (sth1|sth2|sth|sth4)* /
12:23 p6eval std 29023: ok 00:02 105m␤
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12:25 pkkm oh I didn't konw we've got testing bot here :)
12:27 moritz_ rakudo: say 'foo sth3' ~~ / [ sth <[1234]> ]* /;
12:27 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: ␤
12:27 moritz_ rakudo: say 'foo sth3' ~~ / [ sth <[1234]> ]+ /;
12:27 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: sth3␤
12:32 Woodi btw. constant installing parrot and rakudo makes i write Makefile for that :)
12:32 moritz_ git pull && perl Configure --gen-parrot && make -j 3 install
12:32 moritz_ no rocket science ;-)
12:33 Woodi maybe it will be usefull for someone... located at http://perl.lunski.pl/perl6/spi
12:33 Woodi moritz_: that is a problem
12:34 pkkm std: /(?:[/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*)/
12:34 Woodi what if you want it in /usr/local ?
12:34 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/mMMNGyv0Jm line 1:␤------> [32m/(?:[33m⏏[31m[/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*)/[0m␤    expecting quantmod␤FAILED 00:02 103m␤
12:34 moritz_ pkkm: (?: is not Perl 6 regex syntax
12:34 pkkm moritz_: but it's working in pcres
12:34 pkkm std: /([/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*)/
12:34 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/BJ86v7WoW9 line 1:␤------> [32m/([[33m⏏[31m/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*)/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:02 106m␤
12:35 moritz_ pkkm: maybe, but this is a Perl 6 channel
12:35 moritz_ Woodi: then you need something more elaborate, that's true
12:35 Woodi pkkm: pcre was made for compability with superb-perl5 regexes
12:35 pkkm std: /[/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*/
12:35 moritz_ but it's still not compatible :/
12:35 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/GGL8dgX0Tx line 1:␤------> [32m/[[33m⏏[31m/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤
12:36 Woodi moritz_: and what if you must install parrot then rakudo, make mackages to place system-wide, then remove becouse new wersion was developed by someone ? :)
12:37 Woodi and even proto ask me to install it outside so i did :)
12:38 Woodi coffee &
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12:39 pkkm std: /[/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*/
12:39 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/Ooz6ZyDSlX line 1:␤------> [32m/[[33m⏏[31m/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]*/[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤
12:39 pkkm std: / [/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]* /
12:39 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/A6cj6Ct2YG line 1:␤------> [32m/ [[33m⏏[31m/\*.*\*/|\s*|.{,5}]* /[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤
12:39 hcchien joined #perl6
12:40 moritz_ it's complaining about / not being escaped
12:41 pkkm std: / [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.{,5}]* /
12:41 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead at /tmp/b2YOAUwAy1 line 1:␤------> [32m/ [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.{,[33m⏏[31m5}]* /[0m␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
12:42 moritz_ and in Perl 6 the generig quantifier is **0..5, not .{,5}
12:42 moritz_ s/generig/generic/
12:43 pkkm std: / [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.**0..5}]* /
12:43 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find right bracket at /tmp/w46Sj78XRm line 1:␤------> [32m/ [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.**0..5[33m⏏[31m}]* /[0m␤    expecting any of:␤       regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      standard stopper␤ terminator␤     ws␤FAILED 00:01 104m␤
12:43 pkkm ...
12:43 pkkm std: / [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|**0..5}]* /
12:43 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤quantifier quantifies nothing at /tmp/sVglybw7E9 line 1:␤------> [32m/ [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|**0..5[33m⏏[31m}]* /[0m␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤
12:44 pkkm std: / [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.**0..5}]* /
12:44 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse regex; couldn't find right bracket at /tmp/91c7SkqoYK line 1:␤------> [32m/ [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.**0..5[33m⏏[31m}]* /[0m␤    expecting any of:␤       regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      standard stopper␤ terminator␤     ws␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤
12:44 pkkm std: / [\/\*.*\*\/|\s*|.**0..5]* /
12:44 p6eval std 29023: ok 00:01 103m␤
12:44 pkkm :)
12:45 moritz_ std: / [ '/*' .*? '*/' | \s+ | .**1..5 ]* /
12:45 p6eval std 29023: ok 00:01 105m␤
12:45 moritz_ pkkm: since the group is quantified with a * which allows zero matches, it doesn't make much sense to allow \s* inside, which also matches an empty string
12:47 pkkm Oh!
12:47 pkkm it will match any string!
12:47 moritz_ right
12:47 pkkm lol
12:48 moritz_ that's why it's important to always test for both matches and non-matches
12:49 moritz_ too permissive matches are quite common
12:50 pkkm std: / (\s*(/\*.*\*/)?\s*) /
12:50 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/6Fikrpb5CG line 1:␤------> [32m/ (\s*([33m⏏[31m/\*.*\*/)?\s*) /[0m␤    expecting any of:␤    regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:02 107m␤
12:50 pkkm std: / \s*(/\*.*\*\/)?\s* /
12:50 p6eval std 29023: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/jfIA2iI7XX line 1:␤------> [32m/ \s*([33m⏏[31m/\*.*\*\/)?\s* /[0m␤    expecting any of:␤     regex atom␤       regex_infix␤      termish␤        ws␤FAILED 00:01 104m␤
12:50 rafl left #perl6
12:51 pkkm std: / \s*(\/\*.*\*\/)?\s* /
12:51 moritz_ pkkm: anyway, if you want to test PCRE regexes, a Perl 6 regex checker is surely not your best option ;-)
12:51 p6eval std 29023: ok 00:01 103m␤
12:56 pkkm brb dinner :)
13:28 pkkm I have to go.
13:29 pkkm see You at 17
13:29 moritz_ whenever that might be outside your timezone ;-)
13:32 Woodi moritz_: maybe you know something about including Actor model in p6 ?
13:32 moritz_ Woodi: I have no idea what the Actor model ist
13:32 moritz_ I just know that most models suck at acting ;-)
13:33 Woodi model of concurent programming...
13:33 Woodi allow no low-level races
13:33 Woodi k, thanx
13:36 moritz_ rakudo: sub f(*@_, *%_) { say @_.perl, %_.perl }; my $x = 'y'; f( $x => 5 )
13:36 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: ["y" => 5]{}␤
13:50 lichtkind joined #perl6
13:52 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
14:00 Juerd Wolfman2000: What kind of help would you need, for building that pastething?
14:00 phenny Juerd: 05:24Z <Wolfman2000> tell Juerd Planning a Perl 6 Pastebin: any assistance you can provide would be appreciated. Contact myself or eternaleye for more information.
14:01 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning. Wasn't expecting phenny to wake me up
14:02 Juerd Moin
14:02 yjh joined #perl6
14:03 Wolfman2000 Juerd: We've figured out most of the basics. Most likely we'll lose Feather for hosting right now until we end up with a paste.perl6.org or something. We've got a database plan, login plan...the big issue the command line interface, but I think eternaleye has msot of that figured.
14:03 Wolfman2000 ...oh yeah. We need some magical ability to turn perl code into colored syntax. a P6Regex matching thing
14:04 Juerd I can help you with hosting on feather but not much else :0
14:04 Juerd :)
14:05 Wolfman2000 Then the other questions...can we use mysql and cpan without issue? I tried to start cpan, but it's apparently meant for sudo users only. We each don't have our own. I wonder if mysql is similar.
14:05 Juerd See 'How do I keep my own module/library directory?' in perlfaq8 or ask me to install some modules
14:06 Juerd And ask me if you need mysql databases
14:06 Wolfman2000 Juerd: mysql I saw was available. I didn't know if I was allowed to run that on my own.
14:07 Wolfman2000 As far as modules to install...well, since this is going to be built on Perl 5 right now...Catalyst::Perl and related packages. If there is a P6Regex style package for Perl 5, that'd be great too.
14:07 Juerd You're allowed to run your own but it's easier to just get a database in the system-wide mysql
14:08 Juerd For Perl 6 projects, you're allowed to run *anything* as long as you play nice with resources, and don't do anything illegal.
14:08 Wolfman2000 We plan on moving to Perl 6 once it's more stable.
14:09 Wolfman2000 But even you have to admit that the current pastebin with its lack of Perl syntaxing is...kind of sad
14:09 Juerd It's suboptimal
14:09 Wolfman2000 ...ah. I can use cpan. I just have to set o confs
14:09 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
14:11 Wolfman2000 ...and adjust my own @INC path. Is that even possible?
14:12 moritz_ sure, with PERL5LIB
14:12 envi^home joined #perl6
14:12 Juerd use lib 'some path'; or set PERL5LIB
14:12 Juerd Or BEGIN { add to @INC here }
14:12 Wolfman2000 Juerd: I think an environment variable would work best here.
14:12 moritz_ or perl -Ipath script.pl
14:12 moritz_ perldoc perlrun # more alternatives
14:12 Juerd Wolfman2000: Catalyst is being installed right now.
14:14 Juerd Done
14:14 Juerd Wolfman2000: What's the preferred name for a database and mysql login?
14:14 Woodi there is ncurses in parrot, can i use it in rakudo ?
14:15 Wolfman2000 I forgot if mysql databases can have numbers in them. p6paste for the database, use jafelds for login. password...guess I set that.
14:15 Wolfman2000 Key thing about the database: MUST BE UTF-8
14:15 Wolfman2000 I recall postgresql really prefers the encoding set when the database is made.
14:16 Wolfman2000 I don't recall if mysql is similar.
14:16 dalek book: 5db9456 | moritz++ | src/grammars.pod:
14:16 dalek book: [grammars] describe more of the action methods, and add some RAKUDO comments
14:16 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/5d​b9456924fafe51ba777816a4555d5f99405c73
14:17 Juerd Wolfman2000: Databases don't have encodings, tables do. You're creating the tables yourself :)
14:17 Wolfman2000 Juerd: Right, mysql difference. I admit I'm more of a fan of postgresql, but I can adapt.
14:18 payload joined #perl6
14:24 icwiener joined #perl6
14:24 Wolfman2000 Note to self: careful when you use your own CPAN. You get to see all of the packages installed.
14:29 _eMaX_1 joined #perl6
14:39 colomon joined #perl6
14:39 colomon rakudo: say 1.0.Str.Str;
14:39 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: 1␤
14:40 Wolfman2000 ...what's 1.0 supposed to be?
14:40 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say 1.0;
14:40 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: 1␤
14:40 Wolfman2000 ...right, a number
14:40 moritz_ rakudo: say 1.0 * 2.0
14:40 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: 2␤
14:40 colomon 1.0 is supposed to be a Num.
14:40 Wolfman2000 So a num to a String prints the integer string
14:40 pmichaud actually, a Rat
14:40 Wolfman2000 ...but wait. It's actually printing...the number.
14:40 Wolfman2000 And not a hex code
14:41 masak joined #perl6
14:41 colomon rakudo: say 1.0.Str.Str.WHAT
14:41 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: Str()␤
14:41 colomon It's printing the string "1"
14:42 Wolfman2000 colomon++: you fixed it!
14:42 colomon Wolfman2000: It was very, very easy.  :)
14:43 Wolfman2000 Well, how soon will it show up in the master branch?
14:43 masak Wolfman2000: I'm finally putting together the clues: you're building a pastebin in Perl 6.
14:43 masak Wolfman2000: incidentally, that's something Tene++ and I have been toying with a bit.
14:43 Wolfman2000 masak: That's...not exactly how it ended up.
14:43 colomon Wolfman2000: I was just checking to see if the fix was incorporated in p6eval yet.
14:43 masak Wolfman2000: no? how did it end up?
14:44 moritz_ colomon: what fix?
14:44 moritz_ not saying OUTPUT every time?
14:44 Wolfman2000 masak: I wanted to transform one of my own websites to Perl 6. However, it was agreed by the people in here that we should have our own pastebin. We'll build it in Perl 5 first, and then when Web.pm is more stable, we transfer it into Perl 6.
14:44 colomon moritz_: Str.Str exists and works now.
14:44 moritz_ oh, I thought it was a fix to p6eval itself ;-)
14:44 Woodi masak: can you tell me how to use proto with parrot/rakudo installed system-wide ?
14:44 masak Wolfman2000: that sounds like an excellent plan.
14:45 masak Woodi: I'm not 100% sure proto handles that.
14:45 colomon moritz_: There's still one really funky test existing test to sort out.
14:45 masak Woodi: proto needs a lot of love right now. but most of it is spent on the new branch, installed-modules.
14:45 Woodi ok, thanx
14:45 colomon moritz_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/89966
14:46 Wolfman2000 masak: glad you approve. I already have a database set up with one table on feather until we're ready for the big move off
14:46 Woodi masak: i am probably to stupid to uncipher how it work...
14:46 colomon moritz_: The test violates the LSP, but should probably still work, I reckon.
14:46 masak Wolfman2000: we're currently in the paradoxical situation wherein Perl 6 syntax highlighting is done most easily in Perl 5.
14:47 colomon masak: Will that change when ng lands?
14:47 Wolfman2000 masak: So I've heard. Unfortunately, I'm not...too familiar with Perl 6 syntax highlighting. I'm hoping there is a CPAN library for that.
14:47 masak Woodi: no, that's not a great way to approach a problem. :) you should use curiosity, not feelings of unworthiness. :)
14:47 masak colomon: perhaps.
14:48 masak Wolfman2000: well, you should definitely speak to azawawi about it.
14:48 Woodi yea, positive thinking is better than self-destruction :)
14:48 colomon wasn't there a perl 6 syntax highlighting module on CPAN?  (In perl 5, of course.)
14:49 Wolfman2000 colomon: that's what I asked. If there as
14:49 Wolfman2000 was*
14:49 masak colomon: there certainly is one for Padre.
14:49 moritz_ colomon: uhm, I don't think that test is valid
14:49 Wolfman2000 masak: Unfortunately, I borked my local Perl enough so that I can't run Padre.
14:49 moritz_ colomon: since it's already a Str, there's no need why stringification should have to call .Str on it
14:49 Wolfman2000 And I'm not in a position to wipe everything off the computer and start again.
14:49 colomon masak: There was a blog post six months ago describing ripping the padre highlighting out into a module.
14:49 masak Wolfman2000: sorry, can't help you there. :)
14:50 masak colomon: URL?
14:50 colomon moritz_: ????  That was the entire point of writing Str.Str -- you should be able to call .Str on a Str, for sure.
14:51 colomon masak: no idea, that was an ironman post from the first half of the year, I think.
14:51 moritz_ colomon: sorry, I misread the test
14:52 szabgab try looking for the blog post here http://padre.perlide.org/about.html
14:52 moritz_ I thought you were using ~$thing instead of $thing.Str
14:52 masak here's the module, anyway: http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/d​ist/Syntax-Highlight-Perl6
14:53 colomon masak++
14:53 Wolfman2000 I won't give the ++ yet until I see how the HTML output format.
14:53 masak well, azawawi++, surely.
14:53 Wolfman2000 As a web developer, I do care about the output.
14:53 masak ah! an idealist! :)
14:54 colomon Wolfman2000: I doubt it has HTML output yet....
14:54 Wolfman2000 Syntax-Highlight-Perl6? It does.
14:54 moritz_ it has
14:55 colomon it does!  crazy.
14:55 colomon I thought it was supposed to plug into VIM or something like that.
14:55 Wolfman2000 colomon: I think that may be an option too.
14:55 Wolfman2000 The point is...we've got possibilities.
14:55 Wolfman2000 Granted, modifications will need to be done, but...we can probably yank out the needed text.
14:57 moritz_ colomon: that's what Text::VimColor does
14:57 Wolfman2000 Basically, we can use a modification of Syntax::Highlight::Perl6->simple_html. If we can overload it and then just rip out the code itself, even better.
14:57 moritz_ colomon: which is what I use for my websites
14:58 colomon ah.
14:59 * Wolfman2000 enjoys being able to use CPAN without worrying about permissions issues.
14:59 Wolfman2000 Alright, I have Syntax-Highlight-Perl6 installed via CPAN.
14:59 Wolfman2000 I know Catalyst is also installed, so I can soon use the custom apache I have.
15:00 Juerd automysqlbackup++ debian++
15:00 Juerd # apt-get install automysqlbackup  # no config, works well out of the box.
15:01 Whiteknight joined #perl6
15:01 Juerd It simply makes daily db dumps and puts them in /var/lib/automysqlbackup
15:01 Juerd Keeping weeklies and monthlies too.
15:03 Wolfman2000 Juerd++ masak++ good.
15:04 * masak is currently blogging about the midnight "Perl 6 isn't Perl" discussion
15:04 Wolfman2000 which one is this?
15:05 colomon moritz_: On the http://paste.lisp.org/display/89966 failure, I've just added debugging says, and it is the RT69378str.Str that is being called.
15:05 masak Wolfman2000: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-11-07#i_1699890
15:05 Wolfman2000 ...and of course the log ends with me being silly.
15:06 masak I find it comforting to see that emma still lurks on this channel, but is no longer in #perl. :)
15:07 masak that makes me hypothesise that we came off as the saner crowd.
15:07 Wolfman2000 Umm...guys? How do we install STD for Perl 5? I can't just install STD on CPAN
15:07 moritz_ 4
15:07 masak Wolfman2000: most of us just build it ourselves.
15:07 masak Wolfman2000: it's in the Pugs repo.
15:08 Wolfman2000 masak: Well, while you're here...what is $PAGER supposed to be?
15:08 masak moritz_: 4? is that your final answer?
15:08 Wolfman2000 I didn't understand that environment variable
15:08 masak Wolfman2000: something like 'less'.
15:08 masak Wolfman2000: i.e. a program that serves you text page-wise.
15:09 Wolfman2000 ...are we supposed to build via traditional means or Cabal?
15:10 masak Wolfman2000: you don't need to isntall Pugs.
15:10 masak it's just in the same repo.
15:10 Wolfman2000 masak: may as well
15:10 Wolfman2000 ...or I would, if it worked.
15:11 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Umm..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/89985
15:11 masak Wolfman2000: Pugs has nothing to do with STD.pm, besides being hosted in the same repo.
15:12 masak Wolfman2000: I'm not one to decide where you spend your time, but if it's STD.pm you're after...
15:12 Wolfman2000 masak: I will require STD.pm for Syntax::Highlight::Perl6
15:12 masak Wolfman2000: yes.
15:13 masak Wolfman2000: but for that, you don't require Pugs.
15:13 masak just the repo. I know that's a bit confusing. sorry :/
15:13 Wolfman2000 Slightly.
15:13 masak it's an accident of gistory.
15:13 masak s/g/h/
15:14 Wolfman2000 masak: pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm?
15:14 masak that's the one.
15:14 masak there's a README with build instructions, if memory serves me.
15:14 Wolfman2000 I'll expand PERL5LIB then
15:14 Wolfman2000 ...oh, can't use just yet?
15:16 Wolfman2000 /bin/sh: ./gimme5: /usr/local/bin/perl: bad interpreter: No such file or directory <-- :(
15:17 masak Wolfman2000: where do you keep Perl 5.10?
15:17 Wolfman2000 masak: I don't believe I custom built Perl 5.10 on Feather
15:17 Juerd feather has 5.10.1 as the main perl
15:17 Wolfman2000 ...I'm using the default perl, located on /usr/bin/perl
15:18 Wolfman2000 ah: gimme5 has the shebang set to /usr/local/bin/perl
15:18 Wolfman2000 I wonder if that's intentional.
15:19 * Wolfman2000 gets to making now
15:19 Juerd Hm, let's re-symlink that
15:19 s1n joined #perl6
15:19 Wolfman2000 Tell me when please: there are probably too many places I'd ahve to change the path.
15:19 Juerd That used to be a separate from-source install of Perl 5.10, when Debian still clinged to 5.8
15:20 Juerd Wolfman2000: Done
15:20 Wolfman2000 Yay for finding bugs...I think.
15:21 Wolfman2000 If nothing else, this whole experience will be a resume builder.
15:21 Wolfman2000 Not every day one gets to say they helped with the next great language.
15:22 Wolfman2000 masak: make finished. there is no rule for make install. Is it safe to use STD.pm now, and will I still have to adjust PERL5LIB to point to the pugs directory?
15:23 masak Wolfman2000: it's safe to use STD.pm now.
15:23 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:23 masak Wolfman2000: I suggest you try it out in that directory until you feel comfortable with what it does. but after that, setting PERL5LIB should be enough.
15:24 Wolfman2000 Juerd++, masak++: works without a problem.
15:26 Whiteknight joined #perl6
15:26 masak does #perl have logs?
15:28 Wolfman2000 ...I just realized. simple_html automatically generates <link href="p6_style.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">. I don't know if such a file already exists.
15:29 Wolfman2000 ...and it does. azawawi++, thank you for already making said file.
15:30 pmichaud phenny: tell jnthn  I think that creation of Code/Block/Routine/Sub/Method wrappers needs to happen at compile (BEGIN) time instead of at runtime.
15:30 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
15:31 Wolfman2000 Juerd++: Thanks for perhaps the one advantage of having everyone able to view each other's directories.
15:32 diakopter masak: for brains, yeah
15:32 Juerd Wolfman2000: Actually not my idea but I forgot who convinced me.
15:32 Wolfman2000 brb for quick breakfast...then, the Catalyst begins.
15:34 masak diakopter: I will attempt to frequent #perl more in the future. I want to be part of Perl 6 discussions when they happen there.
15:35 diakopter heh
15:36 colomon what you need is a bot that notifies you when perl 6 discussions are started there....   ;)
15:37 diakopter throw ilbot at it...
15:37 pugs_svn r29024 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Add a new test which highlights why one of the existing tests fails.
15:37 diakopter masak: you're a firefox addict, right?  use ReloadEvery and GreaseMonkey to get notified...
15:38 Juerd colomon: Why not just a highlight? :)
15:38 Juerd I've had a highlight on "unicode" and "utf-?8" for a long time.
15:39 Juerd Just to jump into discussions on several #perl's
15:39 masak diakopter: hm, sounds interesting. will investigate.
15:40 masak Juerd: ah, so that's how to clandestinely summon you... :P
15:40 diakopter masak: I mean, once moritz_ throws ilbot at it
15:40 Juerd masak: I have a highlight on feather too.
15:40 Juerd I've removed the one on UTF-8 by the way
15:40 Juerd It was triggered too often by Google URLs.
15:40 huf most of the perl6 discussion on #perl is along the lines of "you abandoned us you bastards!" ;)
15:41 masak huf: really?
15:41 huf that was my impression
15:41 huf some people think it's bloody stupid but they can at least mine it for ideas in "the real perl"
15:41 huf lots of them cant deal with the fact that it's a long time coming
15:42 huf which is a strange reason to hate perl6, but meh
15:42 Juerd People who love Perl 6 usually keep quiet, is my experience.
15:42 masak huf: I know mst's stance on it, and I respect that.
15:42 diakopter Wolfman2000: for highlighting of Perl 6 code, STD has a script for it, but it may be a bit bitrotted
15:42 colomon Juerd: because I had no idea you could set a highlight like that.  sweet!
15:42 pmichaud I think for many people it's like a jilted lover, or a promise unkept
15:42 masak huf: he doesn't think it'll make any large impact ever, but that Perl 5 will soak up the good parts and move on.
15:42 huf yeah
15:43 Juerd colomon: If you use irssi, I recommend -word -color %Y -actcolor %Y
15:43 Juerd Or some other color, but include -word so the actual match is highlighted rather than the name of the person who said it.
15:43 masak if someone wants to read and comment on my blog post about "Perl 6 is not Perl", here it is: http://gist.github.com/raw/229327/7d58b2cd1fc35​3a26d452cecaee87ea7848f6916/blog%20post%20draft
15:43 Juerd Makes finding the highlights much easier
15:43 pmichaud many people expected Perl 6 to be available in just a year or two, and that was a reasonable expectation given the things being said about it at the time
15:43 diakopter .. prophecy unfulfilled
15:44 Juerd http://juerd.nl/i/b454ff6aa​f3aeb462e68f32c75ee1485.png  # example of a highlight on "feather"
15:44 s1n i've heard a handful of comments to the effect that people think perl6 is fun thought experiment of features that might be useful to Perl (not perl5 or perl6, because perl6 doesn't exist)
15:44 pmichaud when it didn't appear, and then took longer and longer... well, people get tired of having their hopes dashed.  :)
15:44 pmichaud s1n: yes, many people who started to be opposed to perl6 begain calling it a "research project" as opposed to a real project with real deliverables
15:44 huf that's why you dont put much hope in something that's not here yet. you just wait and see.
15:44 pmichaud *began
15:45 s1n that is not the open source mentality
15:45 s1n if you want it, help make it so
15:45 Juerd masak: http://gist.github.com/raw/229327/7d58b2cd1fc35​3a26d452cecaee87ea7848f6916/blog%20post%20draft is formatted in a terrible way :)
15:45 masak Juerd: yeah, sorry about that. :/
15:45 huf true, i'm just saying that because i dont understand how perl6 (wether it ever gets done or not) hurts perl5
15:45 huf and yet that's the impression i get from a lot of people
15:46 pmichaud huf: some people think that the focus on perl 6 stole resources from perl 5
15:46 huf that somehow the existence of perl6 in its current state is harmful
15:46 s1n perl6 doesn't, impatient devs who don't want to help with perl6 hurts
15:46 huf pmichaud: so that's why perl5 development seems to have speeded up in the recent past?
15:46 pmichaud huf: i.e., that people who were working on perl6 would be working on perl5 instead
15:46 pmichaud huf: I'm not saying those people are right... I'm just saying why they think that
15:46 huf ah ;)
15:47 huf well yeah, that's the bit i *really* dont get. like it? help or at least shutup. dont like it? it doesnt hurt you so shutup. :D
15:47 pmichaud huf:  many things have been (are being) said about perl6 that are at quite a distance from reality
15:47 Juerd masak: At the amsterdam.pm meetings most people say that Perl 6 isn't Perl, but they don't mind presentations about Perl 6, so they can't be THAT convinced.
15:47 Wolfman2000 ...I'm soon going to have to do port forwarding for this one
15:47 jaffa8 is there profiling for perl 6?
15:47 s1n huf: keep in mind the people who think perl6 is stealing resources have flatly refused to join the community
15:47 masak hm. maybe I should add a paragraph about why it's the right time to be excited about Perl 6.
15:48 Juerd masak: My opinion is still that using the name Perl with a version number is a bad idea for something that isn't just an incremental update. It is confusing.
15:48 masak jaffa8: there are things in the works for Parrot, yes.
15:48 jaffa8 "in the works"
15:48 Wolfman2000 Juerd: Not all of the needed catalyst stuff was installed. I'm taking care of that on my own CPAN now.
15:48 masak Juerd: yes, but that's what I'd call a "balanced view".
15:48 jaffa8 masak, what is that?
15:48 masak jaffa8: "in progress". I don't know much more about it. people on #parrot might.
15:49 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
15:49 Juerd masak: Perl 6 really isn't what I had always thought Perl to be.
15:49 emma In the book Im reading to learn perl it mentions a project called Topaz, is this really Topaz?
15:49 masak Juerd: oh?
15:49 s1n in the end, it won't matter, perl5 is not a way forward, the people who are currently hostile towards perl6 will have a difficult choice in the future, like it or not
15:49 jaffa8 Juerd, that is like life.
15:49 huf it's rather perlish still, so i kinda get why it's called perl6 ;)
15:49 diakopter emma: I think Topaz was Perl compiler/vm in C++
15:50 s1n diakopter: it was just an attempt to rewrite the guts in c++
15:50 masak emma: Topaz got stalled around 2000-2001.
15:50 s1n it was still ugly c++
15:50 Wolfman2000 Juerd: Even with my changes to the CPAN libs, two packages didn't install. I need File::ChangeNotify and MooseX::SemiAffordanceAccessor installed please.
15:50 Juerd masak: To me, "Perl" is Perl 1..5 and "Perl 6" is Perl 6.
15:50 huf isnt that the intention tho?
15:50 markmont masak: add link to perl 6 faq to remind people, and maybe the anti-FUD page at http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?fud   ?
15:50 Juerd masak: But I'd prefer Perl 6 to have a different name instead.
15:51 emma what if the people who make perl want to make a new edition of their perl? What will they have to call it now?
15:51 masak Juerd: yes, but explain what you mean by 'what I had always thought Perl to be'.
15:51 masak markmont: good idea.
15:51 Juerd markmont: There are also my old talks "Perl 6 Myths" and the "Perl 6 fears" project.
15:51 s1n Juerd: why? Perl is what larry defines it to be, period
15:51 colomon jaffa8: there is a parrot profiler that works now, search the #perl6 backlogs (gotta run, alas)
15:51 pmichaud (parrot profiler)   for some values of "works"
15:51 Juerd s1n: Yes, that is reality. However, thoughts don't always match reality :)
15:51 s1n then realign your thoughts to reality
15:52 emma They might jump ahead of you guys and call theirs Perl 7, so that now you are stuck with Perl 8.  I think maybe you guys should be Perl (2n)  and they could be Perl (2n-1)  where n is an integer.
15:52 s1n i think it should be Perl and Perl5
15:52 s1n i.e. future Perl, dead Perl
15:52 huf emma: they are free to call the next version Perl 6.0 ;) wont affect Perl6 1.0 in any way :)
15:53 Juerd Oh
15:53 Juerd It appears the Perl6::Doc::FUD document is based on the fears project.
15:53 huf btw have you decided to call it Perl 6.0 or Perl6 1.0 yet? :)
15:53 pmichaud .oO( I wonder when Linux kernel version 3 will come out. )
15:53 Juerd Perl6::FAQ::FUD,sorry.
15:53 s1n huf: it will be Perl :)
15:53 emma If they wanted to sort of give you a taste of your own medicine they might call theirs Perl6 1.0 2
15:53 huf ;)
15:53 s1n emma: that sort of thing is childish and a huge waste of effort
15:53 huf emma: you still seem to be under the impression that there's a problem somewhere
15:54 pmichaud I think I would say it this way
15:54 masak emma: one important aspect of this, I think, is that Larry Wall, the author of Perl 1..5, is very much involved in Perl 6 development.
15:54 pmichaud there's a portion of the perl community that believes that Perl 6 represents an abandonment and "fork" of Perl
15:54 pmichaud in reality,  Perl 6 is the mainline development.
15:55 Juerd I wrote parts of that document but wasn't included in the README :/
15:55 masak emma: I have the feeling that those who actually understand what it is we do also have some amount of understanding for it.
15:55 emma huf:  i've seen people in both channels feeling like there's a problem. To me it is worrisome. I think schisms are bad news. I mean bad news for everyone who likes perl of any kind. You should all have a lot of forboding. It's not good when a community starts talking about itself more than anything else. It is a prelude to the end, if people don't restore harmony.
15:55 s1n pmichaud: yeah, i explained that to mst before and he laughed
15:55 pmichaud it may take a very long time for us to see that Perl 6 is the mainline, but ultimately that's the case.
15:55 s1n i told him there is Perl and Perl5 and he sorta refused to accept that
15:55 pmichaud s1n: mst is actually quite reasonable here, from his perspective
15:55 masak emma: that's why I'm writing that post. did you read it?
15:55 markmont I wonder if people felt the same way about FORTRAN {90,85,2003} being an abandonment or fork of FOTRAN 77?  There were similar sized changes to what Perl 6 is making, starting with free-form source input (no more character columns!)
15:56 pmichaud if someone believes that Perl 6 is an evolutionary dead end, then they'd be perfectly correct that Perl 6 is a branch and that Perl 5 represents the mainline
15:56 huf i dont see why all members of a community should believe the same thing
15:56 jaffa8 perl 6 is a step ahead concerning functionality
15:56 huf and this is especially true for the Perl community :)
15:56 masak markmont: I'm not sure FORTRAN ever had the same flavor of community as does Perl.
15:56 pmichaud huf: precisely, we don't all need to believe the same thing
15:56 huf ;)
15:56 s1n in the end, none of it matters, Perl v6 is great, if you prefer v5 don't upgrade
15:57 emma If you are all not careful about what you are doing, the worst of all possible outcomes will happen -- People will no longer consider perl 5 relevant, and people will not feel compelled to bother with perl 6 since there are many other options and nothing is written in perl 6.  All of this could mark the end of perl history.
15:57 s1n just like python3000, it's great, needs work, and is the future
15:57 huf 5 will be around for at least a decade so... it's not yet time to decide anything
15:57 huf emma: ask around. most people already consider perl to be a number of stupid fud arguments. one more wont change a thing
15:57 markmont masak: very true
15:57 emma The reason that bothers me is that I'm reading a book to learn perl so I don't want to finish it just at the end of perl history.
15:57 s1n emma: alas, all of cpan will work under perl v6
15:58 Wolfman2000 ...and I'm an idiot. I need a way to kill a socket I made
15:58 pmichaud emma: I wholeheartedly disagree.  People who say that Perl 6 has foreclosed development of Perl 5 just need to broaden their thinking a slight bit
15:58 masak emma: Perl 5 will be relevant for years to come.
15:58 pmichaud If the perl 5 developers wanted to start a new version of perl, they could certainly come up with all sorts of names besides "Perl 6" or "Perl 7"
15:59 masak emma: but Perl 6 will increasingly gain mindshare too.
15:59 pmichaud there are many ways to denote projects besides integers.
15:59 Wolfman2000 Does anyone know if there is a way to kill processes based on the name of the process ran? I need to kill script/p6paste_server.pl
15:59 huf killall?
15:59 s1n Wolfman2000: in unix, killall
15:59 emma Yes perhaps it will. But it's a very bold thing you are trying to do. And a pyrrhic victory for perl 6 will still be the de facto end of Perl.
15:59 huf or pkill or what was that one that can do regex matching
15:59 Wolfman2000 no process found. :(
15:59 pmichaud emma: we disagree on that point, but that's fine.  :)
16:00 Wolfman2000 Couldn't create daemon: IO::Socket::INET: Address already in use at /usr/share/perl5/Catalyst/Engine/HTTP.pm line 211.  <-- I forgot to close this before I temporarily disconnected from feather.
16:00 emma Something must have gone really wrong. This isn't a normal way to advance a language.
16:00 s1n emma: it will _not_ end Perl, it will continue Perl
16:00 pmichaud emma: we're willing to let history tell the tail.  At the time that Perl 6 was being designed, it was widely agreed that Perl 5 was going to die anyway.
16:00 emma I'm saying a pyrrhic victory I might not be spelling that correctly though.
16:00 pmichaud or at least that Perl 5 was on the decline
16:00 pmichaud there's a very good argument to be made that Perl 6 actually freed Perl 5 to continue developing
16:00 huf one good thing that came out of perl6 is a lot of activity to save perl5
16:01 s1n keep in mind, perl5 was mostly on a downward slide to death until perl6 and all that moose stuff was added to revive perl5
16:01 Woodi Wolfman2000: port you use is still in use by os. try use other port for now
16:02 markmont emma: I'd rather focus on what I can do with a tool than what it is called.  "victory" is getting useful stuff done, and Perl 6 is shaping up to be *very* useful for things that are difficult in Perl 5.
16:02 Wolfman2000 Woodi: I'm trying to free the port
16:02 Woodi Wolfman2000: and there is option to socket crating which prevents this behaviour...
16:02 Wolfman2000 okay, I got it.
16:02 Wolfman2000 Juerd++: thanks for htop
16:02 pmichaud more to the point, even though many in the Perl community envision some sort of ongoing battle between perl 5 and perl 6, the people focused on perl 6 don't view it that way.
16:03 pmichaud I'm going to disappear for a while to think about modules.  :)
16:03 pmichaud afk
16:03 Wolfman2000 hooray port forwarding!
16:08 * Juerd emailed lichtkind about acknowledging contributors to the FUD page (originally: pugs/docs/quickref/fears)
16:12 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'The "Perl 6 is not Perl" meme': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39861?from=rss
16:13 Wolfman2000 ...isn't zaslon another bot?
16:15 Wolfman2000 diakopter: Thanks for confirming.
16:15 diakopter Wolfman2000: did you see what I said about std syntax highlighting Perl 6
16:15 Wolfman2000 outdated
16:15 [particle] joined #perl6
16:15 diakopter outdated?
16:15 Wolfman2000 At least, if that's what bitrotting means
16:16 diakopter I said it _may_ be a bit bitrotted... but only the presentation mechanics
16:16 diakopter the Perl 6 syntax is obviously definitive/latest.
16:16 Wolfman2000 That, I can't argue with.
16:17 astrojp joined #perl6
16:17 masak ah. it was the freenode #perl that insisted that Perl 6 isn't Perl, not the perl.org #perl.
16:18 Wolfman2000 masak: ...what?
16:18 diakopter s1n: a publicity/marketing death, perhaps
16:18 masak for some reason I assumed the latter.
16:18 Wolfman2000 Freenode's #perl hates Perl 6?
16:18 Wolfman2000 ...why am I in there right now?
16:18 masak Wolfman2000: there are several #perl channels.
16:19 masak Wolfman2000: I don't know what they said. maybe I never will, because there are no public logs.
16:19 nihiliad joined #perl6
16:22 am0c joined #perl6
16:25 * masak is now under heavy fire in #perl on irc.perl.org :)
16:27 * diakopter goes to watch the fireworks
16:29 _eMaX_ joined #perl6
16:30 Woodi rakudo: say %*VM<config><build_dir>;
16:30 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: /home/p6eval/rakudo/parrot␤
16:32 diakopter what a joke... an intelligent discussion cannot be had at that message arrival rate
16:33 masak diakopter: it's tiring... :/
16:34 diakopter if only people would respect each other's comments enough to slow down about 5x
16:34 masak thank you s1n and Juerd for contributing.
16:35 diakopter otherwise it just becomes a war of who can type the fastest
16:35 * masak exhales
16:35 masak it slowed down somewhat now. :)
16:35 s1n np, this perl5 forever crap is really irritating
16:35 diakopter I suspect that's tongue-in-cheek
16:35 Woodi do http-daemon works only with rakudo configured with --gen-parrot
16:36 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say time();
16:36 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: 1257697683.48797␤
16:36 Wolfman2000 ...how exactly do we format time to a traditional YYYY-MM-DD format anyway?
16:37 BinGOs if it was perl5 I'd suggest POSIX::strftime
16:38 Wolfman2000 ...unfortunately, I'm making a Perl 6 pastebin in Perl 5. :/
16:38 masak http-daemon works regardless of the way you configure rakudo/parrot.
16:38 jnthn Woodi: --gen-parrot just makes sure you're building a revision of Parrot that Rakudo is known to work with, and then builds Rakudo against that.
16:38 phenny jnthn: 05:23Z <quietfanatic> tell jnthn Unfortunately it looks like overloading trait_mod:<is> doesn't make a versatile subclassing hook, because the left argument given to it is an unnamed and uninitialized ClassHOW object.
16:38 phenny jnthn: 15:30Z <pmichaud> tell jnthn  I think that creation of Code/Block/Routine/Sub/Method wrappers needs to happen at compile (BEGIN) time instead of at runtime.
16:38 BinGOs Oh great another pastebin
16:38 Wolfman2000 BinGOs: the one we use right now is suboptimal.
16:39 BinGOs and that is /
16:39 BinGOs ?
16:39 Wolfman2000 ...we can do better.
16:39 Woodi jnthn: i have p/r build and installed atm.
16:39 BinGOs I meant which one do you use now ?
16:39 jnthn pmichaud: Most probably, yes.
16:39 Wolfman2000 BinGOs: the topic is what's used now. It does't support Perl 6 or a concept of registered users.
16:40 Wolfman2000 We're going to fix that.
16:40 jnthn pmichaud: Now you've fixed BEGIN maybe that'll be easier.
16:40 jnthn pmichaud: If you want to just go ahead and put it in how you think it should be, I've no objections whatsoever.
16:41 BinGOs o.O CAPTCHA
16:41 Wolfman2000 BinGOs: that can be looked into.
16:42 BinGOs Nice idea, I must add it to Bot-Pastebot
16:42 jnthn quietfanatic: Things may work out better in the ng branch, when trait_mod:<is> really will just be a call on the metaclass. I'm not sure why it wouldn't work now though...
16:42 jnthn quietfanatic: I meant, will jsut do a call on...
16:43 carlin__ joined #perl6
16:43 jnthn quietfanatic: Thing is, since we do things in declarative order, in class Foo is Bar { has $!x; method wob { } } you'll be having the trait_mod called before the attr and method are known about by the metaclass.
16:44 jnthn Anyway, we may need a better hooker for these kindsa things.
16:45 jnthn masak++ # blogging and trying to improve 5-6 community relations
16:46 masak jnthn: I'm quickly losing hope, though.
16:46 masak jnthn: the people over at #perl (irc.perl.org) are, for lack of a better word, thick.
16:46 huf they're being deliberately thick
16:46 huf because you've somehow hurt their feelings ;)
16:47 Wolfman2000 masak: Reminder needed. Larry...Wall I believe, was the creater of Perl. He's also going for Perl 6. Am I right so far?
16:47 huf resolving this is about as easy as resolving the "perl is linenoise lol" misconceptions ;)
16:47 masak Wolfman2000: yes.
16:48 Wolfman2000 ...then why does it sound like everyone is going against the owner?
16:48 s1n i can't seem to get across to aperion
16:48 masak Wolfman2000: they don't believe in the effort.
16:48 s1n he has seriously flawed logic that he refuses to accept as flawed
16:49 Woodi Wolfman2000: language syntax CHANGED, what was working will not work now (without tricks)
16:49 masak s1n: outside of #perl6, people don't always run on 'logic' :)
16:49 s1n aparently not
16:49 s1n he seems incapable of reasoning
16:50 Wolfman2000 ...and mysql knows how to be annoying at times.
16:51 Wolfman2000 | Warning | 1628 | Comment for table 'groups' is too long (max = 60) | <-- how come that's never talked about?
16:51 jnthn No...surely...you can have a comment for a table longer than 60 chars?!
16:51 jnthn Ouch!
16:51 carlin__ joined #perl6
16:52 Woodi s1n: sometimes pure-practical point of view is very strong point
16:53 s1n Woodi: few people in there did a "use logic" this morning
16:53 pmichaud back again
16:53 Woodi s1n: try to talk with management ppls about making investment in new hardware :)
16:53 jnthn yayitspm!
16:53 pmichaud jnthn: I haven't quite figured out all of the pieces to Code yet
16:54 jnthn pmichaud: Me either. :-)
16:54 s1n Woodi: i do all the time, just upgraded several hundreds of thousands of development machines :)
16:54 pmichaud actually, the biggest thing I think we can use at this point is traits on subs (particularly "is export")
16:54 jnthn pmichaud: The blocker for trait mods now is afaik solely "our" routines.
16:55 pmichaud hmmm
16:55 jnthn Well, our multis.
16:55 pmichaud not sure why that's a blocker
16:55 markmont If anyone wants to give feedback before I submit (email) it, I have a patch up that makes $! contextual as jnthn++ suggested.  It also fixes the order in which find_contextual searches packages, per S02/Names.   http://github.com/markmont/rakudo/commit/​8f4d65f38d8480f76aba1ab44d9849edd61c5cc8
16:55 Woodi s1n: ask now for more :) in some environment you will not get new hw until loadaverage will be visible for external users
16:55 Woodi pure practical objections...
16:56 jnthn pmichaud: How so?
16:56 pmichaud markmont: that kinda doesn't look right to me
16:56 pmichaud $! is a lexica
16:56 jnthn pmichaud: By blocker I don't mean "insurmountable task", just "thing that hasn't been done yet that needs doing" :-)
16:56 pmichaud $1 is a lexical
16:56 pmichaud er
16:56 pmichaud $! is a lexical
16:56 jnthn Third time's a charm.
16:57 Wolfman2000 okay, I have a database dump file on my feather home if anyone wants it.
16:57 Juerd I'm sorry to inform you that Perl 6 is dead.
16:57 jnthn pmichaud: $! is a lexical but also "is context".
16:57 Juerd Stop working on it!
16:57 jnthn Juerd: omg nooooo!
16:57 Juerd Really, it's dead. #perl on magnet says so.
16:57 pmichaud jnthn: contextuals are just lexicals with a * twigil
16:57 pmichaud there's no special "store_contextual" required, afaik
16:57 Juerd You, my friends, are working on a dead language.
16:57 jnthn pmichaud: Well, now, yes
16:57 justatheory joined #perl6
16:57 Juerd :)
16:58 markmont pmichaud: S02/Names_and_variables: "$_, $! and $/ are always contextual, as are any variables whose declared names contain a * twigil."
16:58 Wolfman2000 Juerd: Your joking is...not exactly funny here.
16:58 jnthn pmichaud: Back before that happened I'm quite sure I remember a discusison along the lines of "$! is contextual"
16:58 Juerd Wolfman2000: I'm not joking. I'm just relaying the message.
16:58 pmichaud markmont: yes, although TimToady and I had a slight clarification on here about what "contextual" meant in that phrase.
16:58 pmichaud let me see if I can find it
16:58 Wolfman2000 Who is the original person that layed the message to you?
16:59 masak we're the ones with hugme. #perl on magnet are the ones who'd really need it.
16:59 jnthn Juerd: Oh no! What to do?
16:59 pmichaud Juerd: message received, thanks.
16:59 masak really, really need it.
16:59 markmont pmichaud: What started this was jnthn said that setglobal '$!' in die() looked wrong.  Especially as $! is lexical everywhere else.
16:59 Wolfman2000 masak, Juerd: you guys both realize I don't think Perl 6 is dead, right?
17:00 pmichaud markmont: sure.  what should happen is that we look up $! as a contextual and then assign or rebind it
17:00 masak Wolfman2000: what, really? :P
17:00 Juerd Wolfman2000: I don't think many people in this channel think it is dead.
17:00 Wolfman2000 ...then who thinks Perl 6 is dead?
17:00 jnthn Wolfman2000: I think there's an element of satire. :-)
17:00 * Wolfman2000 is not known for satire.
17:00 jnthn Wolfman2000: On this channel, that is. :-)
17:00 Juerd In fact, I believe that it's more alive than many other projects, including Perl 5.
17:00 jnthn On #perl it sounds like it's dillusion instead...
17:00 masak nod.
17:00 jnthn :-)
17:01 pmichaud TimToady moritz_: yes, $_ is contextual, but every block gets its own, so you never get the caller's $_ unless you say CALLER::<$_>
17:01 pmichaud the same is largely true for $!
17:01 jnthn pmichaud: I thought the point was that things could set $! by looking it up contextually?
17:01 pmichaud jnthn: sure, but that's no different from any other contextual var
17:02 pmichaud look up the variable, assign to it
17:02 * moritz_ 's head jerks up
17:02 jnthn pmichaud: Right, I'm not disagreeing with that. :-)
17:02 Wolfman2000 ...and so with these...ops that I somehow gained...I guess I'm now in a holy war of Perl 6 vs Perl 5. I don't know how I feel about that.
17:02 jnthn pmichaud: Maybe I shoulda read the patch. :-)
17:02 jnthn Wolfman2000: Erm. I haz op and I'm surely not in such a thing.
17:02 moritz_ Wolfman2000: duck your head low and hope to survive the storm ;-)
17:03 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, it should all be lookup and assign, I agree.
17:03 s1n i'm poking the bear in there
17:03 s1n pointing out how C was a bad fork of asm heh
17:04 pmichaud jnthn: anyway, the three things that would be of most help to Test.pm at this point:   augment, is export, compile-time blessing into Code
17:04 Wolfman2000 Is anyone else here familiar with Catalyst by any chance? The only catalyst website I used never had the Model.
17:04 jnthn pmichaud: I kinda was trying to avoid "blessing into" as such.
17:04 jnthn pmichaud: Just creating an instance of Code that contained the Parrot sub.
17:05 pmichaud jnthn: I think it's not avoidable.  Otherwise when we do various lookups we get the wrong type of object
17:05 jnthn pmichaud: Which lookups?
17:05 pmichaud package-scoped lookups, for one
17:05 pmichaud method lookups would be another
17:05 jnthn pmichaud: No, no
17:05 jnthn For method lookups we're putting them all in through the metaclass
17:05 jnthn pmichaud: So we just pass in the wrapped up code object. Done.
17:06 pmichaud right, but that's compile-time.
17:06 jnthn pmichaud: For package scoped we can wrap it and the install it in the namespace, at BEGIN time if you like.
17:06 pmichaud (where "compile-time" means "before INIT")
17:06 markmont For $! can someone clarify what is meant by "lookup and assign"?  Find the callers's lexpad or set a global if there is none?  Or something else?
17:06 pmichaud markmont:  the code will end up looking like
17:07 jnthn markmont: Just use the fetch, and then call '&infix:<=>'(thingy_you_looked_up, thing_to_assign_to_it)
17:07 pmichaud $P0 = '!find_contextual'('$!')
17:07 pmichaud '&infix:<=>'($P0, ... )
17:07 pmichaud what jnthn++ said
17:07 pmichaud more to the point, it will fall out naturally
17:07 pmichaud $! = ...value...     will naturally dtrt
17:08 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
17:08 markmont pmichaud, jnthn:  Many thanks!
17:08 pmichaud we just have to change the compiler so that it treats $! as a contextual lookup instead of a lexical lookup
17:10 pmichaud jnthn: (package scoped sub)  okay, wfmfn
17:11 markmont pmichaud, jnthn: I'll re-do things and put up another proposed patch for feedback later today.
17:11 pmichaud markmont: thanks.  keep in mind that a lot of this changes in the ng branch, though
17:11 pmichaud although !find_contextual is likely to continue to exist
17:12 jnthn pmichaud: Once that is done, sub trait code gen should take me very little time.
17:12 markmont pmichaud: Yep, but it looks like a choice of not continuing to learn until ng lands, using ng now (looks beyond my skill), or doing stuff now and re-doing it after ng lands.
17:13 pmichaud markmont: redoing is okay, just wanted to make sure you were ready for it :)
17:13 pmichaud markmont: didn't want you to suffer disappointement in a week or two (or possibly less)
17:13 pmichaud markmont: if you're doing this to get more familiar with the code and structure, you're on absolutely the right track :)
17:13 jnthn pmichaud: If you want to tackle "our" scoped subs now, feel free. I'm about to make dinner and really need to spend a bit of time on other bits today.
17:14 pmichaud (and you'll "hit the ground running" when ng lands)
17:14 lichtkind joined #perl6
17:14 markmont pmichaud: I appreciate that.  Yes, that's why I'm doing this, plus to help out where possible.
17:14 pmichaud jnthn: what other bits?
17:14 jnthn pmichaud: As in, things besides Rakudo.
17:14 pmichaud ah.  okay.
17:14 jnthn pmichaud: Like, emails I shoulda replied to a week ago and the like. :-)
17:14 pmichaud np
17:15 pmichaud yes, I'll have to work on them then if I'm to get Test.pm going the way I'd prefer
17:15 pmichaud whichever one of us gets to them first, great
17:15 pmichaud right now I'm working on need/import/use
17:15 jnthn pmichaud: OK. I can probably sneak a moment to throw in the sub traits application later on too.
17:15 pmichaud and getting the GLOBAL namespace set up properly
17:15 pmichaud jnthn: actually, I think augment and sub traits are about equal
17:16 jnthn pmichaud: equally important?
17:16 pmichaud yes
17:16 jnthn pmichaud: OK.
17:16 pmichaud with augment we can start putting methods into the core setting
17:16 pmichaud augment _should_ be pretty easy, it's just a different scope on the Package object
17:16 jnthn pmichaud: I can work a first cut of that up for us fairly quickly, I expect.
17:16 jnthn Yes, it should.
17:17 pmichaud and then we need the metaclass instance to know that it's okay to add methods to already-composed classes
17:17 jnthn Right now, it just won't complain if Parrot ain't going to complain. :-)
17:17 jnthn pmichaud: The only thing is that we probably can't re-call .compose
17:17 pmichaud I think we should be able to re-call .compose and it figures out "oh, I already composed this class, I just need to do some extra work here"
17:18 pmichaud in particular, I think that if $*SCOPE eq 'augment', then   "create a new metaclass" is "look up the existing metaclass object"
17:18 jnthn pmichaud: Right, I agree on that part.
17:18 pmichaud and "compose the metaclass" is "update it with whatever got registered"
17:18 jnthn Well
17:18 jnthn Yeah, it's just knowing what got added.
17:18 pmichaud it's okay to me if "add_method" is "immediate" in the case of an already-composed class
17:19 pmichaud then compose is a no-op if the class was already composed
17:19 masak after spending some time on #perl on magnet, I just want to say: I really like you, #perl6.
17:19 pmichaud masak: there's a reason we talk about changing the culture as well as the language.  1/2 :-)
17:19 jnthn pmichaud: I'll go for that as my first cut, I think.
17:19 masak pmichaud: oh yes.
17:19 s1n agreed
17:20 s1n there are a few poisonous people in the perl5 camp
17:20 masak also, it's in the atmosphere in there.
17:20 masak it's much less... respectful than the one here.
17:20 Juerd 18:19 <@masak> after spending some time on #perl on magnet, I just want to say: I really like you, #perl6.
17:20 Juerd +1
17:21 pmichaud #perl has unfortunately had that tradition
17:21 pmichaud and that somewhat pre-dates Perl 6
17:21 Juerd By a decade at least.
17:22 masak in there, it's "you're an asshole!". in here, it's more like "after looking at your arguments, and pondering a while, I'd just like to say that you, sir, are an asshole".
17:22 Juerd Hm
17:22 markmont I just read the comp.lang.perl archives for July - September 1993 to see if there were people freaking out over the changes in Perl 5 alpha 1, and there weren't.  People were focused on getting useful things done, and it was a respectful forum.
17:22 masak and even that is very uncommon.
17:22 Juerd masak: Uncommon in either channel.
17:22 pmichaud so if people think we're trying to break from Perl 5 -- then yes, there are some areas where we are trying to make a definitive break.
17:23 masak Juerd: just a fictional example.
17:23 Juerd It was one of my permanent channels for years
17:23 masak Juerd: I guess my real point is that people generally tend to avoid being deliberately hurtful in here.
17:23 Juerd I haven't seen much name calling.
17:26 Wolfman2000 ...well, a miracle can happen. I think I've finally got a database hooked up in Catalyst. We're partway there to having a pastebin
17:27 und3f joined #perl6
17:28 pugs_svn r29025 | pmichaud++ | [pm.txt]:  Another Pm-posed question...
17:28 pugs_svn r29025 |
17:28 pugs_svn r29025 | Pm-11: S11:257 says "Without an import list, C<import> imports
17:28 pugs_svn r29025 |     the C<:DEFAULT> imports."  How does one import one of the
17:28 pugs_svn r29025 |     other tagsets?  (I think I'm missing something obvious here.)
17:28 und3f left #perl6
17:29 jnthn pmichaud: iirc use Foo :TAG;
17:29 pmichaud jnthn: that seems to conflict with
17:29 pmichaud use Sense :EXPORT;                  # import and re-export the defaults
17:30 jnthn pmichaud: I seem to remember thinking that too.
17:30 pmichaud it could be possible that :EXPORT, :MY, :OUR, etc are just "special"
17:30 jnthn pmichaud: I think that's possible.
17:30 pmichaud and that any colonpair that isn't special is a taget
17:30 moritz_ I also think use Foo :TAG; and either :EXPORT is wrong, or special
17:30 jnthn I think it's the uppercase/lowercase convention.
17:31 pmichaud it's also the case that I'm referring to C<import> instead of C<use>
17:31 s1n just to round out my opinion, it seems clear that some people are bitter that perl6 is still on-going, they see it as we abandoned perl5 and that perl6 is unnecessarily complex
17:31 s1n none of the reasoning holds up, but then again, everyone who hates perl6 seems to forget to do a 'use logic;'
17:31 huf the root of some of that is their mistaken impression that if a project takes a long time, then it's evil.
17:31 pmichaud there's also
17:31 pmichaud require Sense :OUR<ALL> # but this works
17:32 s1n huf: yes that too
17:32 pmichaud which presumably imports the :ALL tagset
17:32 s1n but the perl community is _very_ different than c++ and python
17:32 s1n which has had the exact same problem
17:32 s1n (c++0x and python3000)
17:32 s1n yet no one in those communities were disdainful of the pending change
17:33 Wolfman2000 c++0x? That sounds like a mouthful.
17:33 s1n they act as if perl6 ran over their dog or spit in their food
17:33 Wolfman2000 python3000 at least sounds nice.
17:33 s1n Wolfman2000: they wanted the spec done by 2009, that obviously didn't happen (it's been about 11 years)
17:33 cognominal joined #perl6
17:33 pmichaud 11?
17:33 pmichaud 11?!
17:34 s1n yeah, they were talking about it right after c++98
17:34 * pmichaud subtracts  November 2009 from April 2000 and gets..... 9.5 years
17:34 s1n yay, a phd and he can do math :)
17:34 s1n yeah, c++0x is gonna be awesome, and everyone is welcoming it with open arms
17:34 s1n yet it's been in work _forever_
17:35 Juerd s1n: In a way it is comforting to see that people are passionate about Perl 6
17:35 Juerd Even if passionate in the wrong way.
17:35 pmichaud Juerd: +1
17:36 Juerd They wouldn't have spent all the time debating the issue if they really didn't care.
17:36 pmichaud If Perl 6 were truly irrelevant, then it would be far more ignored than it is :)
17:36 Juerd Yea.
17:36 Juerd (Don't tell them that! ;))
17:36 * pmichaud considers tweeting that.
17:36 Juerd Hehe
17:37 Juerd You'd be giving them ideas
17:37 pmichaud and here I thought ideas were a good thing.
17:37 Wolfman2000 ...considering how we seem to be communicating...decently...
17:37 Juerd pmichaud: Touché
17:37 Wolfman2000 I may as well ask. What are your thoughts on using Skype for chatting with each other?
17:37 Juerd I don't use Skype and I find it much easier to type English than to speak it.
17:38 pmichaud when I want to chat voice, I'd consider skype.  :)
17:38 huf skype is the devil ;)
17:38 Juerd Many of my clients want me to use skype
17:38 pmichaud but trying to illustrate a line of code over the telephone is... painful :)
17:38 huf or at least not software.
17:38 * jnthn is a native English speaker, but doesn't like voice calls still
17:38 Juerd But those conversations always turn out to be a huge waste of time.
17:38 Juerd So I don't do that anymore.
17:38 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: screen sharing is starting to make its way into skype
17:39 Wolfman2000 already on the Mac version
17:39 Juerd What use is screen sharing?
17:39 pmichaud still, with skype it'd be harder to have multiple conversations going on simultaneously, as we often do here
17:39 Wolfman2000 Juerd: to illustrate the line of code
17:39 Juerd Let me put it differently - how is screen sharing more useful than IRC?
17:39 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: I'm not suggesting we chuck IRC
17:40 Wolfman2000 Juerd: ...good question. I'll get back to you.
17:40 pmichaud Wolfman2000: wasn't necessarily taking it that way :)
17:40 cognominal joined #perl6
17:42 * Wolfman2000 is going to need to have to change his mysql password at this rate...
17:44 payload1 joined #perl6
17:44 Wolfman2000 Hmm...what IS my feather email address anyway?
17:44 Juerd jafelds@feather.perl6.nl
17:45 Juerd Hmm
17:45 Wolfman2000 ...right, should have realized
17:45 Juerd Note .nl
17:48 * jnthn should try and make it to .nl next year.
17:49 * jnthn misses stroopwaffels.
17:49 Juerd jnthn: If you come to the Perl Workshop I'll get you a box of stroopwafels to bring home :)
17:50 jnthn I'm SO coming!
17:50 Juerd perlworkshop.nl
17:50 jnthn oooh, is there a date yet?
17:50 Juerd We have a date already
17:50 jnthn oh nice
17:50 Juerd Yes. And it's very likely that it'll be held at the StayOkay in Arnhem again.
17:50 jnthn Ahh...in Arnhem again. :-)
17:50 Juerd We love that place.
17:51 jnthn The food there is win.
17:51 jnthn And it's just an all round nice place.
17:51 Wolfman2000 ...alright, more a perl 5 question, but... should use utf8; come before or after the package declaration?
17:52 Juerd Wolfman2000: Before any non-ascii code.
17:52 jnthn Juerd: OK, I'll block that date out in my calendar. :-)
17:52 Juerd Wolfman2000: Apart from that, it doesn't matter much.
17:52 Wolfman2000 Juerd++: Noted.
17:52 Juerd jnthn: Great; I'm looking forward to meeting you again.
17:52 Juerd jnthn: Can I notify the organization that you'll be there?
17:53 Wolfman2000 Still working on the website right now...this may take awhile. Not used to using the model here, and I'll DEFINITELY need more than one Controller unlike my other page.
17:57 payload joined #perl6
17:57 pmichaud std:  class A { 1 };   class B;   say('hmmm....');
17:57 p6eval std 29025: ok 00:01 108m␤
17:57 jnthn Juerd: Yes. :-)
17:58 Juerd jnthn++
17:58 jnthn Juerd: Hopefully this year the Ukrainian workshop doesn't have a date conflict, but either way, you asked first, so if that happens you get me. :-)
17:59 markmont There's a problem with setting $! in die by doing find_contextuals followed by infix:= ... infix:= can call die if the variable is read-only, and that would be bad.  I'd just copy a little code, but the actual work is done by Object::!STORE which not only can call die itself, but calls a bunch of other stuff that could, in theory, wind up calling die.  Any thoughts?
17:59 jnthn I hope not that, 'cus I like my little Ukrainian adventure each year. :-)
18:00 Juerd :)
18:01 pmichaud markmont: I'd just use store_dynamic_lex and be done with it :)
18:01 pmichaud at least for now :)
18:01 pmichaud eventually I somewhat expect it'll be bind instead of assign anyway
18:01 Wolfman2000 Juerd: I recall you said you wanted to do a kernel update or something today. Do you know roughly how much time I have before I'll be disconnected?
18:02 Juerd Wolfman2000: Yeah... about that... I forgot.
18:02 Juerd So it's not going through.
18:02 Juerd (today)
18:02 Juerd Sorry
18:02 Wolfman2000 Juerd: That's fine. Tomorrow's a better day for you to do it for me anyway due to college classes.
18:02 Wolfman2000 ...I'm still finding it funny how I'm going to become a teacher, yet I can't get rid of my Bachelors.
18:03 icwiener joined #perl6
18:03 masak it's much easier to think of the #perl denizens as cleverly programmed bots badmouthing Perl 6. it also explains why arguing with them yields little result.
18:04 markmont pmichaud: Will do :)
18:04 huf masak: i still think the basis of the problem isnt something you can get at with arguments or logic
18:04 huf because it's mostly emotional
18:04 masak nod.
18:05 pmichaud ...but we can work on the fringes a bit
18:05 masak yes, that's probably what's within range.
18:05 pmichaud every once in a while we confront someone with facts and they say "oh...."
18:05 masak :)
18:06 pmichaud I'm not sure I'd march into the lion's den, but I'll hold an occasional chat/post/tweet with a lion
18:08 s1n holy crap, #perl is chock full of people who haven't done 'use logic;' yet
18:08 moritz_ the freenode #perl, or the irc.perl.org #perl?
18:09 masak the latter.
18:09 masak we've been talking there all day with the fine folks who... have different views about things.
18:11 kidd` btw, is http://twitter.com/rakudoperl deliberately abandoned? last tweet is from September 17th.
18:11 pmichaud not deliberately, no
18:11 pmichaud I've been super-busy on nqp-rx
18:11 pmichaud I need to tweet some rakudoperl stuff
18:11 moritz_ just low on bus number ;-)
18:11 pmichaud I should just make it a point to tweet twice a day to that
18:11 kidd` maybe it could be a good way to comunicate things little by little, without having to fight with lions
18:12 pmichaud kidd`: good suggestion, but my experience has been that you need a bit of sustained effort with the lions
18:12 pmichaud something more than 140-chars :)
18:12 pmichaud maybe others would have more luck at it than I
18:13 pmichaud besides, I spent much of my week battling in a different arena with different lions :)
18:13 jnthn ;)
18:13 moritz_ pmichaud: I could write  an IRC bot which would allow more people to use the rakudoperl twitter account ;-)
18:13 pmichaud moritz_: I'd accept that
18:14 * jnthn is SO glad that he's taking the time out to cook something decent today, rather than the quickest thing he can throw together.
18:14 nbrown_ joined #perl6
18:15 frew joined #perl6
18:16 Wolfman2000 If it helps, the #catalyst people are at least being friendly towards me...then again, I'm not asking when Catalyst will use Perl 6 or anything.
18:18 masak Wolfman2000: yes, I've also had good experiences on #catalyst. they're pretty helpful.
18:18 kidd` moritz_: the twitter-IRC bot is a good idea IMHO
18:18 Wolfman2000 moritz_: The only concern I have with the twitter bot...how would you decide who can use it?
18:18 moritz_ I hope I can make hugme do that
18:18 moritz_ Wolfman2000: by nick whitelist
18:19 Wolfman2000 moritz_: Should have guessed.
18:19 xenoterracide joined #perl6
18:20 moritz_ hugme already verifies if people are registered to freenode
18:20 Wolfman2000 hugme: help
18:20 hugme Wolfman2000: (add $who to $project | list projects | show $project | hug $nickname)
18:20 frew joined #perl6
18:20 Wolfman2000 can't help but feel I'm missing some options
18:20 moritz_ hugme: cuddle Wolfman2000
18:20 * hugme cuddles Wolfman2000; moritz_++
18:20 s1n masak: you should know that i'm provoking them
18:21 moritz_ s1n: that's not always a good basis for a dialog
18:21 moritz_ Wolfman2000: ok, cuddling is not documented
18:21 masak s1n: I see. I'm not sure that's the way to go. but it's your call.
18:21 s1n conversing with them is not a dialog
18:21 masak s1n: no, but there are people listening in.
18:21 masak s1n: keeping up dignity is important on its own.
18:21 s1n i am being serious from time to time
18:22 masak I'm being serious all the time.
18:22 masak I don't have time to joke around.
18:22 masak it's draining enough as it is staying in that channel. I feel as if I've sprung a leak.
18:24 diakopter he
18:24 diakopter hee
18:25 Wolfman2000 ...and now due to what may be a misunderstanding, Catalyst is apparently giving me access to update the PODs as needed.
18:25 masak :)
18:25 masak #catalyst++
18:26 Wolfman2000 All I wanted to know was the proper way to have all controllers be able to use a common sub. Apparently now I have to create that either using a base controller or a role...whatever a role is in Perl 5.
18:27 masak probably a Moose role.
18:34 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'Week 19 of Web.pm -- building a tutorial': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39863?from=rss
18:35 masak many of the discussions on #perl seem to end up with 'yawn. let me know when Perl 6.0.0 is out.' as the conclusion.
18:35 moritz_ oh, they come to a conclusion?
18:35 * moritz_ is genuienly surprised
18:36 masak they have no trouble coming to conclusions, trust me. :)
18:38 Wolfman2000 Building a tutorial...this should be a good read.
18:38 jnthn wow masak++ blogs twice today!
18:38 masak and a third one (by necessity) coming up :)
18:38 masak and I'm already pretty tired. :)
18:38 Wolfman2000 ...you had to use my own words.
18:38 masak I shall sleep well tonight.
18:39 masak Wolfman2000: they were very fine words.
18:39 masak they warmed my heart.
18:39 * masak edits the post to say 'Wolfman2000++'
18:39 Wolfman2000 *chuckles*
18:40 Wolfman2000 Astaire? Who comes up with these names?
18:41 masak Wolfman2000: that program is a port of Ruby's Sinatra. I hope that explains it. :)
18:41 Wolfman2000 Frank Sinatra...guessing Fred Astaire. Good enough.
18:41 masak Wolfman2000: I'm guilty of the naming. suggestions welcome.
18:41 Wolfman2000 masak: I thank you for at least not using Spears
18:42 moritz_ lol
18:42 masak does she dance?
18:42 Wolfman2000 ...I wouldn't call it dancing
18:42 Tene hi masak
18:42 PacoLinux joined #perl6
18:42 masak Wolfman2000: bet she doesn't do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8n7WQIXQDs
18:42 masak Tene: oh hai
18:42 moritz_ she mostly offends the audience by not singing, but using playback
18:46 markmont Improved attempt (pmichaud++, jnthn++) at getting rid of that set_global '$!' in die: http://github.com/markmont/rakudo/commit/​1eaaa816d8581b46ec6a882dea0889d5ea4db880
18:47 Tene It kinda seems to me that $! should be a context var.
18:47 Tene ... and that's what your patch does.
18:47 Tene :)
18:47 moritz_ Tene: then apply it ;-)
18:48 Wolfman2000 masak: 4 words for that scene.
18:48 Wolfman2000 Big Lipped Alligator Moment.
18:49 masak :)
18:49 masak Wolfman2000: I kinda like it.
18:49 masak it might not take the plot forward, but hey, he's dancing on the roof.
18:49 masak that's a pretty clear metaphor.
18:50 oZ1 joined #perl6
18:50 oZ] joined #perl6
18:53 Chillance joined #perl6
18:53 s1n pmichaud: have time this evening?
18:59 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:00 s1n masak: i'm not really trying in #perl anymore
19:01 huf s1n: since at least 20 minutes ago :)
19:01 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:01 s1n they're just being fecitious (spelling?)
19:02 s1n i think the root of the problem is 2 fold: 1) it's taken a long time to get perl6 going and 2) they would have to learn something new
19:02 s1n maybe we can take something away from that
19:03 huf you're still looking for rational reasons
19:03 huf stop it ;)
19:03 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:03 s1n no, i found those reasons a long time ago
19:03 huf ah. keep it up then
19:03 s1n if there had been a not too radically different perl6 in 2002, there wouldn't be this problem
19:04 s1n i.e. if there had been a few things, like classes, junctions, and the grammar engine
19:04 s1n but that ship has sailed, so keep up the good work #perl6
19:04 moritz_ then it would have been perl 5.somthing, not Perl 6
19:05 s1n moritz_: yeah, but even if you had called it perl6, there would have been little if any resistance
19:05 s1n i think people just dont like the unknown, and perl6 is a big unknown to perl5 people
19:07 pkkm joined #perl6
19:07 s1n i think the only thing that will bridge the gap is the next BigThing written in perl6
19:07 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:08 s1n CPAN galvanized perl5, perl6 needs something epically proportioned
19:09 colomon Philosophical Question I hit last night with my rakudopatch:
19:10 colomon Should .Str be guaranteed to return Str, or is a class derived from Str okay?
19:11 moritz_ anything conforming to Str should be fine
19:11 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
19:11 * s1n has to go run 9 miles now
19:16 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:19 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:23 colomon moritz_: then I suppose I got it right last night.
19:24 colomon and I should add a test or two to verify / "document" that.
19:24 colomon I'll be away from the net for the next few hours, but I'll try to get the tests pounded out and then check them in when I have access again.
19:25 moritz_ have the appropriate amount of fun ;-)
19:28 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
19:30 cxreg joined #perl6
19:35 athaba joined #perl6
19:36 cognominal joined #perl6
19:43 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'November 8 2009 -- people may call you a troll, but...': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39864?from=rss
19:44 NorwayGeek_ joined #perl6
19:45 jnthn masak: lol :-)
19:46 jnthn Nice subject.
19:46 masak I feel exhausted.
19:46 masak I need to go lie down somewhere.
19:47 * moritz_ suggests $Home::bed
19:47 masak good idea.
19:48 Woodi masak: still here ?
19:48 Tene Hmm... getting some weird behavior from NQP.
19:48 masak Woodi: yes, but not for long, I think.
19:48 Tene -> #parrot
19:48 Woodi about last blog... look into html-template Makefile.PL and you will be know answer..
19:49 Woodi anyway, i tried 5 or so p6 modules and noone installs...
19:49 Woodi mainly build errors...
19:50 masak Woodi: oh, you're right!
19:50 masak Woodi: so it must be that proto sets PARROT_DIR, and that's why it gets further. yes that makes sense.
19:50 Woodi .pbc was required ?
19:50 masak Woodi++
19:50 masak Woodi: I think that Makefile.PL's seriously old
19:50 Tene dates back to pre-install days?
19:51 masak oh yes.
19:51 masak pre-most anything.
19:51 jnthn Prehistoric makefiles.
19:51 masak anyway, I'm in no condition to fix that today. will do it tomorrow. :)
19:51 jnthn masak: Sleep well. :-)
19:52 Woodi other modules have other bugs... not in code just in build...
19:52 masak thanks. :)
19:53 * moritz_ never had problems installing SVG or SVG::Plot
19:53 Woodi what is: RAKUDO_DIR=$PARROT_DIR/languages/rakudo
19:53 masak moritz_: this is in the installed-modules branch, though.
19:53 Woodi for me rakudo installs to /usr/bin as perl6 binary...
19:54 masak Woodi: it's something that made sense when Rakudo was always in that directory in Parrot.
19:54 masak which it was, a year or so ago.
19:54 Woodi many hardcoded things things..
19:54 scottt joined #perl6
19:55 Woodi i will try SVG :)
19:55 moritz_ masak: that's what i'm talking about, yes
19:55 Wolfman2000 ...I am really questioning if roles are really needed for Catalyst.
19:56 Woodi err... how to install svg ? no Makefile.*...
19:56 moritz_ ./proto install SVG
19:57 moritz_ worked in the installed-modules branch last I tried
19:57 Woodi no idea how to install proto :)
19:57 jaffa4 what is perl 6?
19:58 Woodi k, enought for me for today... gn good ppls
19:58 moritz_ good night Woodi
19:58 masak 'night Woodi
19:59 moritz_ jaffa4: you're not here for the first time - what is this, a quiz?
20:01 jaffa4 just a test
20:01 * moritz_ recommends writing tests for official test suite instead
20:01 jaffa4 really?
20:02 jaffa4 do not you have enough tests?
20:02 jaffa4 What kind of tests?
20:03 fax joined #perl6
20:05 moritz_ t/spec/TODO contains an (incomplete) list of tests that need to be written
20:06 Juerd Maybe that should be put in a chart :)
20:07 Juerd (j/k)
20:07 nihiliad joined #perl6
20:09 Wolfman2000 And...roles may not be needed after all.
20:09 * moritz_ fourier-transforms Juerd and puts him into a chart
20:13 Juerd \o/
20:14 jaffa4 ? t/spec/TODO
20:15 moritz_ http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/TODO
20:16 moritz_ !
20:18 jaffa4 pugscode
20:18 jaffa4 how misleading!
20:18 mathw history provides the reason
20:21 Juerd The test suite started in the pugs repository
20:21 Juerd And... still lives there :)
20:21 Juerd It likes being there I think.
20:21 moritz_ for now, yes
20:22 Juerd Many things like being there. It's gezellig.
20:22 jaffa4 rakudo: print glob "*"
20:22 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: Could not find non-existent sub glob␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
20:23 jaffa4 rakudo: print (glob "*")
20:23 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: Could not find non-existent sub glob␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
20:23 Juerd rakudo: sub glob { `ls -1 @_` }; print glob "*"
20:23 p6eval rakudo 97ced1: Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "`ls -1 @_`"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:23 moritz_ it's qx/.../ in Perl 6, and disabled in p6eval
20:23 Juerd Oh
20:24 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Re syntax highlighting of perl6, see Syntax::Hilight::Perl6 - it was written by a guy who used the nick azawawi, and it has multiple varieties of html output. One of them even has code folding ;D
20:25 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: I don't wish to get into cold folding
20:25 eternaleye (and yes, it's a P5 module)
20:26 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: aware it's P5
20:27 eternaleye (heh, scrolling down shows someone already pointed it out)
20:28 pmichaud (pugscode misleading)   two thoughts:  (1) we still have the option of moving some things into the perl6 account on github, (2)  since perl6.org now points to feather, perhaps we could now do something under the perl6.org domain
20:28 pmichaud afk, soccer game
20:28 eternaleye (FYI, I'm backlogging)
20:28 Wolfman2000 ah
20:29 Wolfman2000 pmichaud: back up a second. I thought feather was originally...different. Now...we have control over all of perl6.org?
20:31 moritz_ we have
20:32 eternaleye TimToady: Is there any chance that gimme5's shebang could be set to '#!/usr/bin/env perl'? /usr/local/bin/perl isn't particularly portable.
20:32 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: symlink already made
20:32 moritz_ Daniel White kindly agreed to make perl6.org available for us
20:32 Wolfman2000 "Daniel White"++
20:32 Wolfman2000 Dirty HTML code...watch out. Your days are numbered.
20:40 ash__ joined #perl6
20:41 ash__ hi
20:41 moritz_ hi ash__
20:41 ash__ i am a perl developer for last 5 years
20:42 ash__ is perl 6 ready for production use?
20:42 moritz_ not yet
20:43 Juerd It will be, before another 5 years have passed :)
20:43 ash__ this is a childish question
20:43 mathw Juerd: It's so good to be able to say that :)
20:43 ash__ is there any value for using perl6
20:43 moritz_ sure
20:43 Juerd mathw: I've been saying it for at least 5 years now ;)
20:44 mathw ash__: definitely
20:44 Juerd As a new product, Perl 6 needs a lot of testing.
20:45 ash__ every now and then i check for perl6 but things are not geting anywhere,
20:45 mathw I beg to differ
20:45 mathw Progress is being made very steadily now
20:45 Juerd And knowing Perl 6 early might help in the future. I hope to guide businesses through the transition from 5 to 6.
20:45 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/status <-- doesn't look like "going nowhere" to me
20:46 Juerd ash__: It's certainly getting somewhere.
20:46 ash__ could you please tell me why shall we use perl6
20:46 mathw Because it's better
20:46 Juerd ash__: Because you like it, love it, or because it's the best tool for the job.
20:46 ash__ in what sense
20:46 mathw That's the overly simple answer of course
20:46 oZ] Everyone: This is my first day in #perl6, and it seems there's already been three queries on whether perl6 is real and relevant or not. Is this the usual, or does today just suck?
20:46 mathw Plenty of better languages have fallen over the years
20:46 moritz_ because Perl 5 has not much space left for evulation
20:46 Juerd ash__: But if you don't like it, don't love it, or if it isn't the best tool for the job, there are still many other programming languages that may suit you better.
20:46 moritz_ oZ]: today is particularly bad
20:47 mathw oZ]: It's high, but a lot of people still ask. The thing with the people who ask in here is that they can get good answers.
20:47 Juerd oZ]: That's today.
20:47 oZ] Gotcha. I've noticed you guys are 20x more pleasant than #perl, so we're off to a good start. Forgive the lurking.
20:47 moritz_ oZ]: and welcome to #perl6 ;-)
20:47 ash__ i know perl, php, java, c#, perl is the one provide me living
20:47 Juerd Lurkers are great... just a bit scary ;)
20:47 oZ] Thanks. :)
20:47 mathw ash__: For me, the key things in Perl 6 are the object-oriented programming model, the grammar system and lazy evaluation (as well as the cleaned up syntax, increased consistency and junctions)
20:48 mathw Having the ability to use Perl 5 modules will help people make the transition
20:48 ash__ from my experience its not only the language other thing like good IDE etc for example ruby on rails
20:48 Juerd ash__: Perl 6 is not yet interesting as a tool to use in your job. For now, it's being used by people who do it for fun and/or because they care.
20:48 mathw Hopefully the Rakudo Star release will get Perl 6 into a lot of hands so people can try it for themselves
20:49 mathw There's a lot of stuff in my job I'd do with Perl 6 now, if it was up to speed
20:49 ash__ without having supprting ide and framework it will be very difficlt to become succesful
20:49 Juerd ash__: Ruby on Rails makes people sad in the long run.
20:50 eternaleye (backlogging) jnthn: dillusion (n.): You think you see a pickle, but it isn't really there.
20:50 mathw yes, and Perl 5 has huge momentum with CPAN and the installed base
20:50 oZ] With any luck, Padre may be actually useful and usable some day, and the IDE issue will imrpove.
20:50 Tene ash__: there are MANY people who successfully use Perl with no IDEs.
20:50 mathw it should be more possible to write good IDEs for Perl 6
20:50 Tene Me, for example.
20:50 mathw But I'm one of those programmers who don't get on with them very well
20:51 * Juerd never used an IDE with Perl.
20:51 Juerd Linux is my IDE :)
20:51 mathw With the noteable exception of C#, I do tend to use an IDE for that
20:51 Juerd I never understood the point of IDEs, to be honest.
20:51 oZ] Tene: That may be true, but IDEs are useful for many people, myself included. I may currently use TextMate, but I'd be a Komodo user if it wasn't so slow.
20:51 szabgab and you are in the top 0.001% of the programmer community
20:51 huf shells and programmer's editors are complex enough to do anything an ide can
20:51 Juerd szabgab: Ordered by what? :)
20:51 ash__ well personaly i use notepad
20:51 szabgab amount of perl usage :-)
20:52 Wolfman2000 ash__: Get thee to notepad++ right now.
20:52 mathw Juerd: a really good one is helpful if you're unfamiliar with the libraries, or for exploring an unfamiliar codebase, but it has to be a good one. C# gives the advantage of the reflection systems
20:52 ash__ i have three developer work underme
20:52 Juerd n...notepad. For real?
20:52 mathw wow, notepad
20:52 ash__ they dont want to use notepad , they need ide
20:52 oZ] I think he meant 'Notepad++'.
20:52 mathw man
20:52 huf i hope so
20:52 ash__ yes notepad++
20:52 mathw ah
20:52 mathw okay
20:52 moritz_ ash__: there's an IDE with Perl 6 support already, and good syntax hilighting for vim
20:52 mathw that's a completely different program then
20:52 szabgab karma notepad
20:53 Juerd ash__: You need a programmer's editor; IDE's have that. But you can use a good editor without the rest of the environment.
20:53 Wolfman2000 @karma notepad
20:53 lambdabot notepad has a karma of 38
20:53 moritz_ @karma notepad
20:53 lambdabot notepad has a karma of 38
20:53 szabgab ty
20:53 Wolfman2000 ...we're giving notepad too much karma when we suggest the ++ version
20:53 Wolfman2000 We need to fix that.
20:53 Tene ash__: moritz is right, if you want a good Perl (5,6) IDE, you should take a look at padre.
20:53 Juerd @karma c
20:53 lambdabot c has a karma of 0
20:53 Juerd Huh, what?
20:53 huf :))))
20:53 moritz_ @karma C
20:53 Juerd C is supposed to top the karma ranking.
20:53 lambdabot C has a karma of 0
20:53 Juerd In EVERY channel.
20:53 Wolfman2000 Apparently not.
20:54 moritz_ Juerd: unless people like C-- ;-)
20:54 mathw I think it's special-cased
20:54 szabgab overflow ?
20:54 moritz_ @karma C
20:54 lambdabot C has a karma of 0
20:54 moritz_ yes, special cased
20:54 szabgab C reached karma overflow
20:54 moritz_ I just --'ed
20:54 Juerd (special case)--
20:54 szabgab karma++
20:54 szabgab @karma
20:54 lambdabot You have a karma of 75
20:54 szabgab @karma karma
20:54 lambdabot karma has a karma of 1
20:54 huf @karma a
20:54 lambdabot a has a karma of 5
20:54 Juerd @karma
20:54 lambdabot You have a karma of 6
20:54 Juerd Yay
20:54 Juerd I can haz 6
20:55 ash__ i used debian, but with ubuntu i am more comfortable
20:55 Wolfman2000 I know this isn't the right room, but...any reason why my database connecting isn't working here? (This is for work on the new website.) http://scsys.co.uk:8001/35949
20:55 ash__ with a shell script(from net) I been able to install whole contelpanel
20:55 oZ] ->search()->count();
20:55 ash__ and hosting 200 website so far so good
20:55 oZ] er, without the parens for your code. :)
20:55 Wolfman2000 oZ]: I'm not searching for anything. I want all.
20:56 Juerd Wolfman2000: That's searching with no conditions.
20:56 ash__ i love the power of commandline but still ease of use is a key factor
20:56 oZ] What Juerd said.
20:56 oZ] You have to have a query to get the count.
20:56 Wolfman2000 ...and now I have an exception.
20:56 Wolfman2000 due to lack of >
20:57 Wolfman2000 oZ]: placed the empty search() in, didn't change the query, still have the original error.
20:59 Wolfman2000 oZ]: If it matters, it seems that my Model folder only contains DBIC.pm, while my tables are in Schema/Result/TableName.pm
21:00 fax left #perl6
21:01 fax joined #perl6
21:01 oZ] Wolfman2000: That should be the proper placement, and then your model() line is checking the DBIC model for a schema called Users. Does your Users class' defined columns match the database? I'm still checking.
21:01 Wolfman2000 oZ]: Not calling any columns here: just the table names.
21:02 ash__ ok bye for today
21:03 oZ] Wolfman2000: Could you paste your connect_info, whether it's inside Model/DBIC.pm or the yml file?
21:03 Wolfman2000 oZ]: hang on
21:04 lisppaste3 wolfman2000 pasted "Connect info" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90004
21:04 Wolfman2000 oZ]: that's from Model/DBIC.pm
21:04 Wolfman2000 Everything below that connect batch is POD
21:05 eternaleye Wolfman2000: (re Symlink already made) Yes, on feather. But my box doesn't have a /usr/local/bin/perl either. `env perl` just calls the first one in $PATH.
21:06 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: can't help you there
21:06 Juerd env is not portable.
21:08 oZ] Wolfman2000: Sorry for the delay. Get rid of that last hashref, and just supply mysql_enable_utf8 as a fourth key to the connect_info hashref.
21:09 Wolfman2000 oZ]: No error...but at this point it's me not using a template correctly.
21:09 oZ] Heh.
21:09 oZ] Well, it's progress. :)
21:09 mubot joined #perl6
21:09 Wolfman2000 Okay, I stashed it in $c->stash->{users}. The templates should be able to call c.users
21:10 pointme joined #perl6
21:10 zaslon joined #perl6
21:11 eternaleye Wolfman2000: My point was that /usr/local/bin/perl breaks for a lot of people. `env perl` falls under the heading of 'sensible defaults', because almost all of the time it will DTRT
21:11 oZ] Wolfman2000: Stash gives keys to root, so it's just [% users %]
21:11 Wolfman2000 oZ]++: We have progress!
21:12 oZ] Woo!
21:12 moritz_ might I remind you that this is a Perl 6 channel?
21:12 Wolfman2000 moritz_: Might I remind you that this is for a Perl 6 website?
21:13 carlin joined #perl6
21:13 moritz_ Wolfman2000: it's still Perl 5
21:13 Wolfman2000 Besides: normal support channels went dead awhile ago.
21:13 oZ] Wolfman2000: Feel free to message me privately.
21:13 eternaleye moritz_: He's working on a pastebin for Perl 6
21:13 moritz_ eternaleye: I know
21:13 IllvilJa joined #perl6
21:16 jan_ joined #perl6
21:16 nihiliad joined #perl6
21:22 pdcawley joined #perl6
21:33 icwiener joined #perl6
21:44 mj41_ joined #perl6
21:54 Wolfman2000 http://i34.tinypic.com/4j429y.png  The colors and layout can change. The point is: we have a basic front end.
21:55 eternaleye \o/
21:56 Wolfman2000 I figure the recent pastes will go on the left, and any other needed navigation can go in the footer.
22:00 xabbu42 joined #perl6
22:20 hcchien joined #perl6
22:21 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
22:24 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
22:37 _eMaX_ joined #perl6
22:38 pmurias joined #perl6
22:40 pugs_svn r29026 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Four tests showing that DerivedFromStr.Str returns an object of type DerivedFromStr (when inheriting Str.Str's implementation).
22:45 colomon joined #perl6
22:48 * carlin finally got Apache to exec perl6
22:48 Wolfman2000 carlin: Using Web.pm for this, or something else?
22:49 carlin Wolfman2000: just a basic Hello world script at the moment, was going to have a poke around at Web.pm later though
22:50 Wolfman2000 carlin: You may get to poke at Web.pm first: I've been charged to take care of a new pastebin for us.
22:52 kst joined #perl6
22:56 hugme joined #perl6
22:58 moritz_ hugme: twit hugme_test this line now appears on twitter, if everything worked
22:58 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
22:59 Wolfman2000 moritz_: you use rakudoperl, right?
22:59 Wolfman2000 that is, for twitter
23:00 moritz_ Wolfman2000: no, that's pmichaud's account
23:00 moritz_ Wolfman2000: but I hope to use that too, soon ;-)
23:00 Wolfman2000 which one is yours?
23:01 Wolfman2000 dinner: afk
23:02 moritz_ Wolfman2000: currently I have only hugme_test for testing hugme
23:03 frettled Hey, guys, what should I blog about tonight?  :D
23:06 frettled Sorry, didn't mean to scare everyone else into fetal positions beneath their desks!
23:07 moritz_ frettled: blog about the bots in #perl6 ;-)
23:07 frettled Hmm!
23:07 frettled And those are the ones that have a Voice instead of op, right?
23:07 frettled :D
23:08 moritz_ right ;-)
23:08 frettled How do I classify the bug-submitting bot, AKA masak?
23:08 moritz_ your choice ;-)
23:09 frettled muahaha.
23:09 frettled Let's see.  I've forgotten what dalek does.  I genuinely don't know what ilbot2 and ilogger2 do, except I suspect the latter is responsible for the web updates.
23:09 frettled Add IRSeekBot to that list.
23:10 moritz_ dalek reports commmits to rakudo, nqp-rx, the book and so on
23:10 Juerd dalek announces commits
23:10 Juerd "the book" ;0
23:10 Juerd s/;0/:)/
23:10 moritz_ is the logging bot corresponding to irclog.perlgeek.de
23:10 moritz_ ilogger2 for another one; don't know about IRSeekBot
23:10 frettled lambdabot takes care of karma for us, lisppaste3 handles the paste.lisp.org bits, phenny is a secretary, and pugs_svn tracks pugs commits?
23:11 Juerd Pugs repository commits
23:11 frettled p6eval handles various online Perl 6 code evaluation
23:11 Juerd Which holds more than just pugs
23:11 jnthn Mainly the test suite and spec are what get reported by pugs_svn
23:11 frettled yup, like the spec
23:11 frettled mm
23:12 moritz_ and masak usually doesn't have voice, but handles RT submissions nonetheless ;-)
23:12 frettled :D
23:13 moritz_ http://transfixedbutnotdead.com/2009/11​/08/best-things-in-life-come-in-threes/ lovely
23:13 frettled haha :)
23:13 pmurias_ joined #perl6
23:14 moritz_ zaslon reports blog posts
23:15 frettled ah, yes, our newish bot member
23:16 jnthn *and* zasolan is written in Perl 6 \o/
23:16 carlin pointme provides links to projects tracked by proto
23:17 carlin and mubot dies every 12 hours or so but also tracks karma
23:17 Juerd Where's zasolan's source? :)
23:17 Juerd s/zasolan/zaslon/
23:18 Juerd http://github.com/moritz/rssbot
23:18 carlin pointme: rssbot
23:18 pointme carlins's rssbot is at http://github.com/carlins/rssbot/
23:18 Juerd Correct spelling helps in google too.
23:19 frettled Are the numbers for ilbot2, ilogger2 and lisppaste3 fixed, or just chosen because the names without numbers were accidentally taken when the bots logged back on the last time?
23:20 moritz_ frettled: ilbot2 is the successer of ilbot, which sucked :-)
23:20 frettled moritz_: :D
23:21 meppl joined #perl6
23:23 frettled perl6: my $a; say $a+$a;
23:23 p6eval pugs: 0␤
23:23 p6eval ..rakudo 97ced1: Use of uninitialized value␤Use of uninitialized value␤0␤
23:23 p6eval ..elf 29026: Use of uninitialized value $a in addition (+) at (eval 122) line 4.␤Use of uninitialized value $a in addition (+) at (eval 122) line 4.␤0␤
23:23 frettled hah
23:23 frettled std: my $a; say $a+$a;
23:24 p6eval std 29026: ok 00:02 109m␤
23:26 eternaleye joined #perl6
23:27 markmont left #perl6
23:28 markmont joined #perl6
23:30 sunnavy joined #perl6
23:32 frederico joined #perl6
23:33 sbp joined #perl6
23:33 arnsholt joined #perl6
23:35 nsh joined #perl6
23:35 frettled There, I think I got it all down now, let's see.
23:35 frettled hrm, paste.lisp.org is irresponsive.
23:37 frettled No, it's my ISP's international provider's link across the Atlantic that's buggy.  GRR.
23:38 oZ]1 joined #perl6
23:39 Whiteknight joined #perl6
23:39 frettled whoa.  that killed Firefox, too.
23:40 frettled good thing I saved my blog entry first, haha
23:41 frettled http://pastebin.com/d473612bc
23:41 frettled Juerd, jnthn, moritz_ - any corrections/comments?
23:42 starek joined #perl6
23:42 starek left #perl6
23:42 moritz_ frettled++
23:43 moritz_ frettled: mabe you could mention that mubot also handles aliases for karma tracking
23:43 frettled What kind of aliases are those?
23:43 frettled As in moritz_ and moritz being the same?
23:43 moritz_ for example kyle is know as KyleHa here on the channel, but as kyle on pugs, so he has two karma accounts on lambdabot
23:43 moritz_ right
23:43 jnthn frettled: If you're noting that zaslon is written in Perl 6, it may be wroth noting that mubot also is. :-)
23:44 jnthn Our own dog food. We're nomming it.
23:44 Wolfman2000 back from dinner. I have to say...I'm not a big fan of steak.
23:44 moritz_ jnthn: s/dog food/bot food/ ;-)
23:44 jnthn ;-)
23:44 frettled jnthn: ah, brilliant, thanks!
23:44 jnthn Wolfman2000: Next time, I'll happily eat it for you...
23:44 * jnthn <3 steak
23:45 Wolfman2000 jnthn: Fine a way to allow teleportation, and perhaps we'll have something.
23:45 s1n heh, now if the irc bots saved all the logs and the log browser were hosted up off Web.pm (or some such), that would be dogfooding it :)
23:45 Wolfman2000 s1n: I think that's one of the goals.
23:46 carlin frettled: pointme is also written in Perl 6
23:46 frettled whoa, neat!
23:46 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: You here? Got a question for you regarding the new website.
23:46 quietfanatic Hi #perl6
23:46 moritz_ hola
23:47 frettled okie-dokie
23:47 quietfanatic jnthn: When executing "Foo is Bar {...}" the call to trait_mod:<is> has no knowledge of the name "Foo".  That's what I meant.
23:47 Khisanth joined #perl6
23:47 kst joined #perl6
23:47 Wolfman2000 Evening Khisanth. Surprised to see you in here.
23:47 frettled Now all I need to do is to add my blog to zaslon, and, ehrm.
23:48 jnthn quietfanatic: Ah, ok
23:48 jnthn quietfanatic: That may well be fixable.
23:48 carlin zaslon: help
23:48 zaslon usage: add <name> <link to rss feed> | remove <name> | link <name>
23:48 frettled hrm, zaslon doesn't answer privmsg with help.  *clickaurl*
23:48 moritz_ frettled: or play zaslon yourself ;-)
23:48 frettled ah, there it happened anyway.
23:48 s1n what is zaslon? #feels out of the loop
23:48 jnthn quietfanatic: I mean, we parsed the name already...
23:48 frettled zaslon: add frettled http://howcaniexplainthis.blo​gspot.com/feeds/posts/default
23:48 zaslon I am now following frettled's blog
23:48 jnthn quietfanatic: I'll see what I can do. :-)
23:49 reid05 joined #perl6
23:49 carlin lets see if it worked
23:49 carlin zaslon: link frettled
23:49 quietfanatic jnthn++
23:49 zaslon frettled's blog is at Failure()<0xb71e5584>
23:49 frettled heh
23:49 s1n lol
23:49 carlin aww :(
23:49 frettled carlin: I suspect the problem is that blogspot uses Atom, not RSS.
23:50 moritz_ astrojp: add frettled http://howcaniexplainthis.blogspo​t.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss
23:50 moritz_ zaslon: add frettled http://howcaniexplainthis.blogspo​t.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss
23:50 zaslon Sorry, I am already following frettled's blog
23:50 moritz_ zaslon: remove frettled
23:50 zaslon I am no longer following frettled's blog
23:50 moritz_ zaslon: add frettled http://howcaniexplainthis.blogspo​t.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss
23:50 zaslon I am now following frettled's blog
23:50 moritz_ zaslon: link frettled
23:50 zaslon frettled's blog is at http://howcaniexplainthis.blogspot.com/
23:51 carlin \o/
23:51 moritz_ astrojp: sorry for the mis-hilight
23:51 s1n what's the general purpose of zaslon? linking perl6 blogs in irc?
23:51 frettled yup
23:51 carlin It won't announce the most recent post though
23:51 frettled s1n: and what moritz_ suggested I blog about tonight, is what the bots here do.
23:52 s1n frettled: okay, i'll have to read it after my system upgrade
23:52 moritz_ frettled++ nice post
23:52 moritz_ maybe we should link that on perl6.org or so
23:53 jnthn It'd probably make the channel a little more understandable for those who are new to it. :-)
23:53 eternaleye Wolfman2000: What's the question?
23:53 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: We didn't discuss all URL formats. When it comes to registering...should we attempt to keep the same URL, or can we allow a different URL to take place?
23:54 pnate joined #perl6
23:55 s1n pmichaud: ping
23:55 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Not sure what you mean by 'when it comes to registering'. Are you asking whether we should use the same URL scheme for retrieving a user's posts regardless of whether it's registered vs. different based on registration status?
23:55 pugs_svn r29027 | moritz++ | [perl6.org] link to bot explanations
23:55 frettled moritz_: sure, but perhaps better, copy the contents into a more permanent location than a blog.
23:56 frettled moritz_: that makes it easier for other people to fix it when it gets out of date next week, too :D
23:56 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: ...no. The registration page will have a URL. Should that same URL be used for POST/submitting?
23:56 moritz_ frettled: good idea, will look into that tomorrow
23:56 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Ah. I'd say no, since they do different things. Maybe URL/register and URL/submit ?
23:57 astrojp moritz_: no problem. :)
23:57 moritz_ frettled: community/bots.html might be good
23:57 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: Basic no was all I needed. I feel awkward about using submit on its own.
23:57 moritz_ frettled: if I'm allowed to rip off your blog post for that ;-)
23:57 frettled moritz_: sure, consider it some sort of public domain thingy text, copyright transferred to the Perl 6 community™
23:57 eternaleye Wolfman2000: Well, if we use /submit, we can have that be the webinterface page for pasting something as well
23:58 moritz_ frettled++ again
23:58 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: Won't be that easy to work with on Catalyst from what I'm seeing. Let me get more done if possible.
23:58 payload joined #perl6
23:58 moritz_ bed &
23:58 Wolfman2000 You can check out what I'm doing on my feather box if you want.
23:58 frettled I doubt that the text would have what we call «verkshøyde» in Norwegian, that is, «a work worthy of (copyright) protection» :)
23:58 eternaleye Wolfman2000: /submit for webinterface and /submit/auto for POST w/ client?
23:58 frettled moritz_: goodnight!
23:58 * frettled hits the sack as well.
23:58 moritz_ frettled: it's nice to ask anyway ;-)
23:59 frettled Thanks for the inspiration, guys!
23:59 moritz_ sleep well too
23:59 frettled moritz_: absolutely, that's my position as well.  Thanks for the assistance and idea!
23:59 nihiliad joined #perl6
23:59 Wolfman2000 eternaleye: I'll see what I can do. No guarantee.
23:59 frettled moritz_++ of course

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