Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-11-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 mathw of course all the songs are still going through my head
00:01 mathw just kind of wish I'd been in more of them
00:02 mberends mathw: were there other bands performing too?
00:02 mathw no
00:02 mathw it's just that there are quite a lot of us
00:02 mathw seven singers
00:02 mathw ...one drummer
00:02 mathw poor Roger looked quite exhausted even at the halfway point
00:03 mberends good times, clearly :)
00:03 mathw yeah :)
00:03 mathw he's a great drummer
00:03 mathw he's in a proper band, too
00:03 mathw http://www.the-sons.com (plug plug)
00:04 mathw I saw a tweet about pointy blocks in rakudo-ng
00:04 hercynium joined #perl6
00:04 xinming_ joined #perl6
00:05 moritz_ yeah, we're that modern today ;-)
00:05 moritz_ twittering and stuff
00:05 mathw lol
00:05 mathw so I can return to my examination of given/when/default
00:06 moritz_ aye
00:06 moritz_ mathw: pmichaud said something about its implementation in the backlog
00:06 * mathw looks
00:07 * moritz_ just scraped 40MB of HTML pages, and leaves the job running all night
00:07 moritz_ (yes, it respects robots.txt ;-)
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00:08 * mathw finds that pmichaud gave a recipe
00:09 mathw okay
00:09 mathw now I need to learn how to resolve a merge conflict with git
00:09 jnthn mathw: first, panic and swear los.
00:09 jnthn *lots
00:10 jnthn mathw: Then, open the conflicting file, resolve the conflict.
00:10 jnthn mathw: Save it, and then git add path/to/file
00:10 jnthn and git rebase --continue
00:10 jnthn Or something like that. :-)
00:11 arnsholt Oh, you have to rebase?
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00:12 arnsholt I've struggled with that a few times, and never figured it out
00:12 jnthn arnsholt: or maybe merge --continue or something
00:12 mberends mathw: another way is to back up you changes, git reset --hard HEAD^ or something similar, git pull and edit your changes again
00:12 jnthn arnsholt: I've tended to get these on a git pull --rebase though.
00:12 arnsholt Good point all
00:13 * mathw found something that suggested git mergetool, which seems to have done the job
00:13 arnsholt I suspect the solution in my case is that I should read the whole tutorials, rather than the first ten pages or so that I've done so far =)
00:13 jnthn Oh, I was supposed to read a tutorial? :-)
00:13 mathw I spend so much time at work mucking about with svn merges I don't think my brain has much room for the git version
00:13 * jnthn just adopted the monkey-on-typewriter and asking-on-irc strategy.
00:13 mathw although git seems to do them much more intelligently anyway
00:14 mathw I love the idea that you have a commit which has an ID, and you can take a commit and stick it into another brnach and ther eit is in its original form
00:14 mathw not 'this is a commit which merges some pile of shit from this branch'
00:16 * mathw probably shouldn't be triyn gto implement given in his current mental state
00:16 quietfanatic Is there a way to have two names for one class?
00:16 mathw hmm definitely not
00:16 mathw Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0
00:18 jnthn quietfanatic: I guess you can do something like ::SecondName := ClassName; or something.
00:19 quietfanatic I though it'd be something like that
00:19 quietfanatic but it doesn't seem to work
00:19 quietfanatic Oh wait it does
00:20 TimToady als, my (::SecondName $) := ClassName
00:20 TimToady *also
00:21 TimToady I'd better start learning writing sans that letter, if the key is getting balky...
00:22 mberends TimTady: dn't wrry abut it ;)
00:22 mathw or you could start saving up for a new keyboard
00:22 quietfanatic According to chromatic++, the memory leak jnthn and I noticed has been fixed in a newer parrot than Rakudo uses.
00:22 jnthn quietfanatic: Ah, OK, cool. I thought we'd only bumped a day or two ago.
00:23 quietfanatic PARROT_REVISION say 42403
00:23 quietfanatic and it's fixed in 42431 or so
00:24 jnthn Ah, OK, cool.
00:24 * mathw -> sleep
00:24 jnthn night, mathw
00:28 quietfanatic jnthn: actually it looks like chromatic++ fixed it just now
00:28 quietfanatic so yeah :)
00:29 jnthn chromatic++
00:31 diakopter jnthn: I'm having to work around something weird in nqp
00:31 diakopter weird to me, that is.
00:32 diakopter NQP/Actions.pm  method param_var
00:32 diakopter @BLOCK[0].symbol($name, :scope('lexical') );
00:32 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
00:32 diakopter @BLOCK[0].symbol($name, :scope('lexical') );
00:32 diakopter lambdabot: die in a fire
00:33 jnthn diakopter: .symbol is a thingy that lets us store extra information about a variable.
00:33 diakopter anyway, upon reaching the Block, its symbol table can't distinguish between lexical and parameter
00:33 jnthn diakopter: Well, actually, a symbol in general.
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00:33 diakopter I have a (very) hacky workaround (as usual) :)
00:33 jnthn diakopter: Ah, I can probably clarify that.
00:34 diakopter (since I can't seem to add another attribute to those objects in that Hash)
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00:34 jnthn diakopter: parameter scope means "the source of this is a parameter, but we store it as a lexical"
00:34 jnthn So the entry in the block symbol table tells us that all lookups will be in the lexpad.
00:35 diakopter ok. the information I lack is a list of named parameters on the Block node
00:36 diakopter I thought I saw arity somewhere, but now I don't
00:37 jnthn .symbol you just saw. .symbol($name) gives the hash of everything we know about the symbol. .symbol($name, :key('value'), ... ) adds to the hash of stuff we know about it.
00:37 diakopter I modified Actions.pm in nqp to add another property, but it's not dumped
00:37 jnthn There is arity, yes - but don't rely on it too much.
00:38 jnthn Add another property to where?
00:38 jnthn When constructing the Block you mean?
00:38 diakopter to the line I pasted above
00:38 diakopter @BLOCK[0].symbol($name, :scope('lexical'), :isparam('you_know_it') );
00:38 jnthn Oh, and it doesn't dump it? :-/
00:38 jnthn That's a bit odd.
00:39 diakopter I didn't think it did... I'll try again.  I suppose with make clean this time. :/
00:39 jnthn It certainly stores them - I'm using this in Rakudo to stash bits.
00:39 jnthn Maybe it's in the dumping.
00:40 jnthn But anyway, a parameter scoped variable means "take a parameter, but then store in the lexical .name"
00:40 diakopter oh.  it's dumping it now.
00:41 diakopter right, but I don't know about the parameters without walking the Block node
00:41 diakopter thoroughly
00:41 diakopter (without adding that tag/annotation)
00:41 diakopter which did work, now.
00:41 * diakopter requests a patch to nqp :)
00:43 jnthn In PCT, we do do that.
00:43 jnthn Also, parameters get sorted based on named and slurpy flags too.
00:44 jnthn So having to walk the block node is not surprising or different.
00:44 jnthn I'd expect that you'd have to do that. :-)
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00:45 * diakopter whine
00:45 jnthn :-)
00:45 jnthn hugme: hug diakopter
00:45 * hugme hugs diakopter
00:45 diakopter but that's an entirely different interpreter mode
00:46 jnthn diakopter: Isn't that something you can do as a pre-processing step on the data structure, before you start interpreting, though?
00:47 diakopter yeah, but, there's no need for that if it's already precomputed and can be put in that symbol hash as an annotation..
00:47 diakopter I'll stick with this approach and whine/nag until you commit it :P
01:07 diakopter nqp: { sub a(){ say(55) } }; { sub a() { say(44) } }; a();
01:07 p6eval nqp: 55␤
01:07 diakopter first wins
01:08 diakopter nqp: { sub a(){ say(55) } }; { sub a() { say(44) }; a(); }
01:08 p6eval nqp: 44␤
01:08 diakopter nqp: { sub a(){ say(55) } }; { sub a() { say(44) }; a(); }; a();
01:08 p6eval nqp: 55␤55␤
01:08 diakopter that's inconsistent
01:08 diakopter pmichaud: ^^ pick one :P
01:24 pmichaud I call Parrot bug.
01:25 pmichaud still, that last one is inconsistent, yes.
01:27 * diakopter suggests updating t/nqp/11-sub.t with how you want it to work.... even if commented out... (please)
01:27 diakopter (I was working on test 6)
01:28 pmichaud the final a() should be a "sub not found"
01:28 pmichaud because sub declarations default to lexically scoped.
01:28 diakopter ... then test 6 in 11-sub.t is wrong
01:28 pmichaud could very well be.
01:29 pmichaud yes, it is.
01:29 diakopter ok, whew. :) lexical makes me happier.
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01:38 diakopter hmm... dalek needs hangup
01:39 dalek joined #perl6
01:39 diakopter dalek: wb
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02:07 Wolfman2000 evening. Doing better...time to finish setting up the SQLite database.
02:18 slavik I call lots of parrot bugs ... but is it possible to limit parrot to a memory footprint?
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03:02 colomon should we try bumping PARROT_REVISION in rakudo master, then?
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03:06 * colomon is going to go ahead and bump PARROT_REVISION to 42431 on his local rakudo and see what happens.
03:06 seanstickle left #perl6
03:18 colomon build went okay with 42431, as did make test
03:18 colomon I'm going to set make spectest going and go to bed.
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03:24 s1n wow, i'm impressed: http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html
03:26 Wolfman2000 feather experts: is there some sort of file that contains my command history? I think I need to look up mine.
03:26 s1n .bash_history?
03:27 Wolfman2000 s1n: ...would have been nice if the history I wanted was there.
03:27 s1n Wolfman2000: which shell?
03:27 Wolfman2000 bash. :(
03:27 Wolfman2000 I need to go beyond 500 lines
03:27 s1n Wolfman2000:  export HISTSIZE=2500000 #put this in your .bashrc
03:28 s1n lots of history
03:28 s1n i keep 250mil history at work lol
03:28 Wolfman2000 s1n: still have the 500 lines
03:29 s1n Wolfman2000: you have to source your bashrc and history you have now is all you'll get
03:30 s1n well, to start
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04:52 quietfanatic rakudo: class X {}; ::Y := ::X; say (sub (Y $p) {...}).signature.perl
04:52 p6eval rakudo f87efa:  ( no output )
04:53 quietfanatic perl6 -e 'class X {}; ::Y := ::X; say (sub (Y $x) {...}).signature.perl'
04:53 quietfanatic > :(Object $x)
04:53 quietfanatic I'd like this to say either :(X $x) or :(Y $x)
05:30 quietfanatic Here's another
05:30 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash<key> = "value"
05:30 quietfanatic I know that doesn't make sense, but
05:30 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Could not find non-existent sub key␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
05:31 quietfanatic I guess it's trying to be our %hash < key > = "value", but it should choke on the > = first, shouldn't it?
05:33 PerlJam no, because it chokes on calling the key sub first :)
05:34 quietfanatic But it checks that at runtime!
05:35 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash<key> = "value"; BEGIN {say "compiled okay"}
05:35 p6eval rakudo f87efa: compiled okay␤Could not find non-existent sub key␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
05:35 PerlJam a < b >= c is perfectly valid Perl
05:35 PerlJam (syntactically)
05:35 quietfanatic but not a < b > = c
05:35 quietfanatic space between > and =
05:36 quietfanatic hmm
05:36 quietfanatic rakudo: our (%hash<key>) = "value"
05:36 PerlJam std: a < b > = c
05:36 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Unable to parse declarator; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "<key>) = \""␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
05:36 p6eval std 29059: Undeclared routines:␤ a used at line 1␤        c used at line 1␤ok 00:01 102m␤
05:36 quietfanatic err
05:36 quietfanatic really?
05:37 quietfanatic Well but std checks that before seeing the > =
05:37 PerlJam std: my ($a,$b,$c);  $a < $b > = $c
05:37 p6eval std 29059: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead at /tmp/Hwh0CXYkqx line 1:␤------> [32mmy ($a,$b,$c);  $a < $b > =[33m⏏[31m $c[0m␤FAILED 00:02 108m␤
05:37 quietfanatic yeah
05:37 quietfanatic rakudo: our (%hash<key> = "value")
05:37 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Unable to parse declarator; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "<key> = \"v"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
05:37 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash(<key> = "value")
05:37 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Confused at line 2, near "(<key> = \""␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
05:38 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash <key> = "value"
05:38 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Could not find non-existent sub key␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
05:38 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash < key > = "value"
05:38 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Could not find non-existent sub key␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
05:38 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash < 'key' > = "value"
05:38 p6eval rakudo f87efa:  ( no output )
05:38 quietfanatic rakudo: our %hash < 'key' > = "value"; say "here"
05:38 p6eval rakudo f87efa: here␤
05:39 quietfanatic maybe the old prefix:<=> for iteration is still hiding in there somewhere
05:39 quietfanatic rakudo: say =$*IN
05:39 p6eval rakudo f87efa: prefix:<=> has been superseded by $handle.lines and $handle.get␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
05:40 quietfanatic rakudo: say 3 > = 4
05:40 p6eval rakudo f87efa: No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'prefix:='␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
05:40 quietfanatic rakudo: say 3 < 5 > = 4
05:40 p6eval rakudo f87efa: No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'prefix:='␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
05:40 quietfanatic rakudo: say 5 < 3 > = 4
05:40 p6eval rakudo f87efa: 0␤
05:40 quietfanatic :)
05:40 quietfanatic It is the ghost of prefix:<=>
05:41 PerlJam I guess so
05:41 quietfanatic Now that I'm satisfied with that, I think our %hash<key> should either DWIM or be a syntax error
05:41 quietfanatic I do that a lot in p5 too
05:42 quietfanatic std: our %hash<key>
05:42 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:02 101m␤
05:42 quietfanatic ...
05:42 quietfanatic std: our %hash<key> = 'value'
05:42 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 102m␤
05:43 diakopter std: our %hash<key> = key<%hash>
05:43 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 102m␤
05:43 quietfanatic wait but what about undefined sub key?
05:43 diakopter std: our %hash<key> = key <%hash>
05:43 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 102m␤
05:43 quietfanatic std: our %hash<key> = nothing_in_particular
05:43 p6eval std 29059: Undeclared routine:␤  nothing_in_particular used at line 1␤ok 00:01 102m␤
05:43 quietfanatic Is key a sub?
05:43 diakopter std: key
05:44 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 99m␤
05:44 diakopter who knew
05:44 quietfanatic Maybe it's exported from Pair
05:44 diakopter rakudo: say key 4 => 5
05:44 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Could not find non-existent sub key␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
05:45 diakopter rakudo: tlety
05:45 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Could not find non-existent sub tlety␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
05:45 quietfanatic rakudo doesn't do method -> sub exportation
05:45 quietfanatic yet
05:46 diakopter rakudo: say (4 => 5).key
05:46 p6eval rakudo f87efa: 4␤
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05:47 diakopter rakudo: ::
05:47 p6eval rakudo f87efa: ResizablePMCArray: Can't pop from an empty array!␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
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05:52 diakopter rakudo: say (0 => 0 => 0)
05:52 p6eval rakudo f87efa: 0        0       0␤
05:59 Tene_ rakudo: ,
05:59 diakopter hm
05:59 p6eval rakudo f87efa:  ( no output )
06:02 colomon with parrot r42431, test #129 of t/spec/S12-attributes/instance.t gets a null PMC instead of dying "okay".  :(
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06:14 TimToady std: ::
06:15 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 101m␤
06:15 TimToady std: ::::
06:15 p6eval std 29059: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Name component may not be null at /tmp/dSsKeRWknz line 1:␤------> [32m::[33m⏏[31m::[0m␤    expecting morename␤FAILED 00:01 99m␤
06:15 quietfanatic :: is for anonymous subs and classes right?
06:15 TimToady in a declaration as a placeholder, yes
06:16 TimToady std: sub :: {...}
06:16 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 100m␤
06:16 quietfanatic Is it like $ and @ too?
06:16 quietfanatic in being a bare sigil
06:16 TimToady :: is only sort of a sigil
06:16 TimToady it used to be considered a true sigil, but it was too ambiguous
06:16 TimToady std: ::$x
06:16 p6eval std 29059: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/jvArrkMbui line 1:␤------> [32m::[33m⏏[31m$x[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ POST␤   bracketed infix␤    infix stopper␤    morename␤       postfix␤  postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤       standard stopper␤       statement modifier
06:16 p6eval ..loop␤    terminator␤     whitespace␤Oth…
06:17 TimToady std: @$x
06:17 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:02 101m␤
06:17 quietfanatic Ah
06:17 TimToady there's on difference
06:17 TimToady *one
06:17 quietfanatic ::($x) would be a symbolic reference rather than a coercion
06:19 TimToady yes
06:20 Wolfman2000 ...even sqlite is not working right for me. GAH!
06:20 Wolfman2000 phenny: tell masak the sooner I can learn how to use Web.pm to avoid the issues I'm having with Catalyst and DBIC, the better.
06:20 phenny Wolfman2000: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
06:23 Wolfman2000 what other messages do I need to pass on...
06:28 Wolfman2000 ...I've got nothing. Tomorrow will hopefully be better.
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07:09 pmichaud hugme tweet rakudoperl  nqp now understands flattening positional arguments, array constructors, floating point numbers
07:09 * hugme hugs pmichaud; tweet delivered
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07:13 Su-Shee good morning.
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07:51 moritz_ good morning.
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08:08 mathw morning
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11:33 colomon morning
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11:55 zaslon lolmoritzhazblogged! moritz++ 'Is Perl 6 really Perl?': http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/per​l-6/is-perl-6-really-perl.html
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12:23 jnthn o/
12:26 moritz_ \o
12:26 Woodi hi
12:27 colomon o/
12:27 * jnthn hates networks sometimes.
12:28 Woodi moritz_: i see one missed feature in Perl6... looks it stop to be generic unix scripting language...
12:28 Woodi to many layers: parrot or haskel ar js...
12:29 Woodi unix admins are/was main perl audience...
12:29 moritz_ Woodi: it might seem like this because many IO things aren't specced yet
12:29 moritz_ Woodi: but the plan is to make common things as least as easy as in Perl 5
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12:29 Woodi no, i talk about implementations of P6..
12:30 moritz_ how would an additional layer stop it to be a unix scripting language?
12:30 Woodi layers... perl5 is needed for linux bootstrap, autoconfigure, etc.. no one want VM for booting...
12:31 moritz_ perl5 also has a VM
12:31 moritz_ it's just better hidden
12:31 Woodi no, os developers do not like dependencies...
12:32 Woodi c perl6 implementation will be good
12:32 moritz_ will it?
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12:32 moritz_ parrot is implemented in C...
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12:33 Woodi it one layer more... perl6 with parrot will disapper from linux/unixes installators...
12:33 Woodi just afraid, and many things can happen
12:34 moritz_ actually it usually happens the other way round
12:34 moritz_ more distros ship more dynamic programming languages by default
12:34 moritz_ debian's default desktop install now even includes mono
12:34 Woodi i just talk about this
12:36 mathw Hello
12:36 Woodi hmm, see your point -> more languages will make parrot happy ? :)
12:37 moritz_ hopefully :-)
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12:37 moritz_ good afternoon mathw
12:37 Woodi hallo
12:37 mathw Parrot's really easy to build, so I doubt packagers will be too averse to rakudo depending on it...
12:37 mathw hi moritz_
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12:38 colomon so, I tried building rakudo master with parrot r42431 last night
12:38 moritz_ it is now; it used to be a horror half a year ago
12:39 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "r42431 error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90227
12:40 * beggars wondering if perl6 will be loaded by commercial unices, like a perl5 now
12:41 moritz_ colomon: that's known, yes :(
12:41 jnthn It passes all tests but then fails at exit?
12:41 jnthn Ew.
12:41 mathw beggars: at some point, hopefully, but it's a bit early to worry about that really
12:42 colomon jnthn:  no test#129 is null pmc
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12:42 colomon afk
12:42 jnthn colomon: oh.
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12:48 colomon back now.
12:49 colomon r42431 is supposed to fix a major parrot memory leak, so I thought it was a good idea to try it in rakudo ASAP.
12:50 colomon This one stupid test is the only thing stopping "make spectest" from it from being a complete success.
12:50 moritz_ do you have ICU installed?
12:51 moritz_ unicode.t aborts for me 5 tests before the end
12:51 colomon moritz_: how can I tell?
12:51 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><icu>
12:51 p6eval rakudo f87efa: Use of uninitialized value␤␤
12:51 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config>.perl
12:51 p6eval rakudo f87efa: {"hugefloatvalsize" => "16", "HAS_READLINE" => "0", "-Wno-missing-format-attribute" => "1", "HASATTRIBUTE_DEPRECATED" => "1", "backtrace" => "1", "exe" => "", "sysconfdir" => "/home/p6eval//p1/etc", "-Wimplicit-function-declaration" => "1", "-Wparentheses" => "1", "shortsize" => "2",
12:51 p6eval .."con…
12:52 Juerd length limitation fail :)
12:52 moritz_ rakudo: .say if /:i icu/ for %*VM<config>.keys
12:52 p6eval rakudo f87efa: has_icu␤icu_shared␤icu_dir␤
12:52 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><has_icu>
12:52 p6eval rakudo f87efa: 1␤
12:53 xenoterracide joined #perl6
12:53 moritz_ Juerd: Bot::BasicBot does some weird magic with word breaking, so simply allowing 5 less chars won't do
12:54 colomon I do not have ICU (%*VM<config><has_icu> == 0)
12:54 jnthn colomon: If it's just one test failing out of the whole test suite as a result of bumping the revision, but it fixes a major, major memory leak, I'd say it's the lesser evil to bump.
12:54 moritz_ that means this test won't even run on your box, xomas_
12:54 moritz_ erm, meant colomon
12:56 colomon jnthn: read the backlog last night (maybe 9pm ish?) for the memory leak discussion, which I wasn't really a party to.
12:56 gabiruh joined #perl6
12:57 colomon oh wait, you were part of this discussion.  :)
12:57 colomon http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-11-12#i_1718887
12:58 moritz_ some brave soul might want to bisect it to a specific parrot revision and submit a bug report against parrot
12:58 moritz_ does anybody know a recent good parrot rev?
12:58 Juerd Could probably be automated
12:59 xenoterracide joined #perl6
13:00 colomon well, 42403 is good and 42431 is bad, so that's a pretty narrow search range for a binary search.
13:00 moritz_ thanks colomon
13:01 colomon (or rather, 42403 is the current PARROT_REVISION -- I'm assuming that works!)
13:05 colomon BTW, parrot rHEAD had is only a couple of ticks past 42431, but it incorporates what looked like a major merge of a branch...
13:05 moritz_ a merge that changed the location of PMC headers, IIRC
13:06 xenoterracide joined #perl6
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13:21 colomon moritz_: are you trying the binary search on parrot versions, or should I do that (now that I'm done feeding my boy breakfast)?
13:21 moritz_ colomon: I failed and got distracted :/
13:21 moritz_ so if you have tuits, by all means do it
13:24 colomon okay.
13:25 colomon trying 42417
13:25 takadonet morning all
13:28 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
13:28 colomon \o/
13:34 jnthn pmichaud: morning, though I'm going to run away for a while in 5 mins.
13:37 colomon 42417 fails instance.t
13:37 colomon trying 42410
13:37 masak joined #perl6
13:37 moritz_ I hope you don't do bisecting by hand?
13:38 masak good $time-of-day,#perl6.
13:38 phenny masak: 06:20Z <Wolfman2000> tell masak the sooner I can learn how to use Web.pm to avoid the issues I'm having with Catalyst and DBIC, the better.
13:38 * masak likes Wolfman2000's attitude
13:38 xenoterracide joined #perl6
13:39 jnthn masak: hej hej
13:39 colomon moritz_: I do if it's svn.  Do you have a better way?
13:39 colomon moritz_: besides, this is a very shallow search...
13:39 masak jnthn: ahoj!
13:41 moritz_ colomon: git mirror, git-bisect
13:41 xenoterracide joined #perl6
13:42 colomon moritz_: ...right.  Why did it not occur to me to clone the svn repo in git?
13:43 moritz_ you don't even need to do it yourself
13:43 moritz_ http://github.com/leto/parrot/
13:50 payload joined #perl6
14:01 colomon Ah.  Good thing I checked my assumptions.  Turns out 42403 is broken too.
14:01 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
14:03 colomon Can someone else confirm that make t/spec/S12-attributes/instance.t fails with a null pmc on the current rakudo master build?
14:05 moritz_ yes, failes here with parrot r42447
14:05 * moritz_ checks if it's actually a NPA
14:06 moritz_ ok 129 - dies: trying to modify instance attribute when invocant is type object
14:06 moritz_ Null PMC access in set_attr_str()
14:06 moritz_ in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)
14:06 * moritz_ has a horrible idea
14:07 moritz_ it could be the last rakudo commit
14:08 colomon your substr fix?
14:08 moritz_ yes
14:08 moritz_ trying with that fix reverted right now...
14:10 moritz_ nope, without that commit it's still the same error
14:11 colomon I'm going to try a clean install of current rakudo and see what happens.
14:25 scion joined #perl6
14:29 colomon Yeah, okay, a clean checkout of rakudo master fails that test (on 64-bit linux)
14:30 colomon Okay, S12-attributes/instance.t hasn't been changed since Oct 20.
14:31 colomon time to go surfing through rakudo commits?
14:34 moritz_ maybe look at the smolder to see when it first failed
14:35 fridim_ joined #perl6
14:39 colomon 01c042fe88248e8e6a650fe4691b17706b65a13a fails, which is when PARROT_REVISION was bumped.
14:39 colomon I don't know how to find/use smolder?
14:40 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "oh, hey, hmmm..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90235
14:41 finanalyst joined #perl6
14:41 colomon whoops, no that's S12-introspection, not S12-attributes.
14:41 moritz_ http://smolder.plusthree.com/app/​public_projects/smoke_reports/18
14:41 finanalyst hi there. Any one here who can help with rakudo installation?
14:41 colomon yup.
14:42 moritz_ finanalyst: we can try
14:42 finanalyst duh. i sent an email to p6l list and got a reply! just updated to new ubuntu and forgot to install svn
14:43 colomon moritz_: errr... there's no way to drill down to see what the failures were for each of those?
14:43 moritz_ colomon: there is, you can click on the percentage
14:43 moritz_ finanalyst: p6c would have been a bit more appropriate
14:44 finanalyst p6c is ?
14:44 moritz_ perl6-compiler@perl.org
14:44 finanalyst ah. yet more shame. sorry
14:44 seanstickle joined #perl6
14:45 moritz_ no problem
14:45 colomon moritz_: ooo, looks like it worked on Nov 9.
14:46 colomon and failed on Nov 10
14:47 colomon and of course, there were no significant changes in between?!
14:47 moritz_ the maybe it's a parrot change between 9. and 10th. Nov
14:47 moritz_ people occasionally use a newer parrot version than required
14:48 * PerlJam has pretty much stopped doing that.
14:48 colomon for smolder?
14:48 moritz_ yes
14:48 moritz_ smolder also records the parrot rev
14:48 PerlJam newer-than-required parrots far too often cause breakage for me recently.
14:49 colomon I shouldn't jump to conclusions, let me see what happens here when I try them locally...
14:50 moritz_ PerlJam: yes, but some people try them to find those problems
14:51 moritz_ and to see if it's safe to bump PARROT_REVISION further
14:52 PerlJam sure, sure.
14:55 a joined #perl6
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14:56 colomon okay, fe6dd277b3ffca7efca4f303af18f7e54e7202cc works.
14:56 colomon I suspect it was just pmichaud's parrot bump that broke the test.
14:57 moritz_ so next step: test r42158 and r42403 of parrot
14:57 moritz_ or I can do that
14:57 colomon well, let me verify for sure that that's the issue.
14:57 colomon and then I'll let you do that, if you don't mind, so I can get some $work done.
14:57 pmichaud it wouldn't surprise me if the parrot bump caused the issue
14:58 dalek nqp-rx: 3795f33 | pmichaud++ | README:
14:58 dalek nqp-rx: README update.
14:58 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/3​795f33a53bddf9bda8c980712a057deb23f45eb
14:58 pmichaud but we need to figure it out before parrot's release on tuesday :)
14:58 * moritz_ wants to figure it out today
15:00 finanalyst left #perl6
15:00 masak moritz_++
15:03 colomon Okay, yup, it was the parrot bump.  929998c9c6f2a98b14005005c9a2d1ed99ca8a76 works just fine.
15:04 * colomon is very glad it wasn't his commits that weekend that broke it.  :)
15:04 colomon So yeah, moritz, somewhere between r42158 and r42403 lies the problem.
15:05 colomon Any objections to my bumping parrot revision to the version with the memory leak fixed, since it doesn't have any additional errors than the version we are already using?
15:05 moritz_ +1
15:06 moritz_ ok, parrot r42158 is clean
15:11 moritz_ with those old parrot revisions it takes ages to compile the setting...
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15:19 moritz_ passes with parrot r42403 too here
15:23 colomon errr... okay, that seems troubling.
15:28 * jnthn back
15:30 PerlJam Since the master and ng branches have diverged, there have been 16 commits to master and 174 commits to ng.  There were 175 commits between releases #21 and #22.  144 the release before.    (just some random stats to fill everybody's head with :)
15:31 PerlJam (and there have been 225 commits since the last release)
15:31 PerlJam (well, since the last release by date as opposed to by the actual commit that was tagged as the release)
15:33 colomon what's the magic code to make "make spectest" run in parallel?  (figured I should test the change again to make sure in a fresh build and on my quadcore machine)
15:34 moritz_ export TEST_JOBS=5
15:35 moritz_ git mv README IGNOREME # SCNR :-)
15:35 moritz_ hugme: hug me
15:35 * hugme hugs moritz_
15:39 nihiliad joined #perl6
15:39 colomon moritz_++ # danke
15:44 cmohe joined #perl6
15:44 * colomon doesn't see TEST_JOBS in the README, but does see spectest_smolder.  Hmmm....
15:45 masak I installed VLC today. they have a directory called GOODIES which contains all the README, LICENSE, ChangeLog etc.
15:45 masak I think having a directory GOODIES is a neat idea, but I was also a bit disappointed that it didn't actually contain any goodies. :)
15:46 cmohe left #perl6
15:49 jnthn masak: What sort of goodies should we include?
15:49 jnthn masak: I mean, different people will have different expectations. :-)
15:49 masak jnthn: I dunno. cool demos or something :)
15:50 masak Mac OS X has this weird space animation, which says "Welcome" in various languages.
15:50 masak it's simultaneously slightly bothersome and immensely satisfying. :)
15:52 * moritz_ can't understand that, all the bisecting steps look clean
15:54 jnthn masak: I guess people are more likely to look in a GOODIES direction than in the README. ;-)
15:54 colomon moritz_: do you ever get a failure doing it the way you are now?
15:54 jnthn erm, directory
15:54 * jnthn brews some tea in hope that if we drinks enough of it, his brain will eventually start working today
15:54 jnthn *he
15:54 jnthn ...well, that or I'm royal.
15:58 moritz_ colomon: nope, all pass :/
15:59 colomon moritz_:  :O  are you sure you're actually updating the parrot you are using?
15:59 moritz_ colomon: yes
15:59 dalek rakudo: d04cce9 | (Solomon Foster)++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
15:59 dalek rakudo: Bump PARROT_REVISION to 42431.
15:59 dalek rakudo: This has a spectest failure, t/spec/S12-attributes/instance.t, but that already existed at the previous PARROT_REVISION as well.  This Parrot is reputed to have solved a major memory leak.
15:59 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​04cce92f9215e8783c96a1b0884f119bc4f43be
15:59 jaffa8 joined #perl6
16:00 colomon moritz_: platform issues?  you did duplicate the bug at one point, right?
16:01 moritz_ I did, yes
16:02 am0c joined #perl6
16:03 colomon moritz_: Computers.  Ugh.
16:06 iblechbot joined #perl6
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16:22 mathw whoa
16:23 mathw I just realised what's going on with pmichaud++'s 'how to implement given' thing from yesterday
16:23 jnthn masak: oh
16:23 * mathw congratulates his brain
16:23 jnthn mathw: oh
16:23 jnthn mathw: I can't use tab completion.
16:23 jnthn oh ARGH...that was meant for masak.
16:23 pmichaud mathw++
16:23 mathw no, it's just that we deliberately choose names to make sure you're awake
16:23 pmichaud mathw: so, want to explain it back to us?  ;-)
16:23 masak jnthn: :P
16:24 jnthn mathw: Today I'm...erm...really not.
16:25 mathw pmichaud: It's parsed as an expression and a block. You want to pass the expression as a parameter to the block, which will handle it due to the way the pblock action works, so the swap and change pasttype does precisely that. Given is actually an anonymous subroutine call of a sort.
16:25 pmichaud mathw: exactly.  :)
16:25 mathw of course
16:25 mathw it still doesn't actually *work*
16:25 mathw dammit!
16:26 jnthn Aww!
16:26 mathw [matthew@asymptote rakudo]$ ./perl6 gt.pl
16:26 mathw Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0
16:26 mathw :(
16:27 mathw pmichaud: but I understand what I'm trying to do! which is great :)
16:27 jnthn mathw: Hmm. That maybe suggests there's an issue with the block sig.
16:27 mathw jnthn: that's what I thought
16:28 * mathw has a dig in the pblock
16:28 colomon what's the sample code, mathw?
16:28 mathw colomon: given 1 { }
16:28 colomon That is a block which expects 0, isn't it?
16:28 moritz_ no
16:28 moritz_ blocks without a sig default to '$_ is ref = OUTER::$_' or so
16:29 pmichaud oh
16:29 pmichaud when you call xblock, be sure to pass a (1)
16:29 mathw ah
16:29 mathw for implicit
16:29 pmichaud otherwise it assumes a block with no implicit params
16:30 pmichaud this is a change from STD.pm (which I hope STD.pm will adopt)
16:30 pmichaud thus far, the things that are in a position to know if a block has an implicit param or not is whatever requests parsing of the block
16:31 rfordinal joined #perl6
16:31 mathw [matthew@asymptote rakudo]$ ./perl6 gt.pl
16:31 mathw [matthew@asymptote rakudo]$
16:31 mathw yay!
16:31 mathw now to see if it sets $_
16:31 colomon \o/
16:31 mathw yes it does
16:32 moritz_ ship it!
16:32 mathw so that's basic given statements functional
16:32 jnthn yay!
16:32 mathw I shall send off a patch
16:32 jnthn mathw++ :-)
16:34 rfordinal left #perl6
16:35 mathw The patch is on RT#70441
16:36 seanstickle joined #perl6
16:36 jnthn mathw: applying :-)
16:37 mathw yay!
16:37 mathw this is almost like having a commit bit, only less dangerous
16:37 mathw now think, brain
16:37 mathw do when blocks need implicit
16:38 moritz_ mathw: for the next patch should git commit -am 'your commit message'
16:38 moritz_ mathw: and then git-format-patch HEAD^1
16:38 moritz_ and send the generated file
16:38 mathw doh
16:38 mathw sorry, too much svn
16:38 moritz_ that way the meta information (author, commit message, date) is preserved
16:38 moritz_ no problem, just makes life a bit easier for the one who applies
16:39 jnthn moritz_: Only if they know what to do with the patch.
16:39 jnthn moritz_: I've just applied it with the patch program.
16:39 moritz_ jnthn: git-am -s $patchfile
16:39 jnthn moritz_: I'm suspecting there's a Better Way that I shoulda known about.
16:39 moritz_ the -s adds the Signed-Off-By line
16:39 mathw would you like me to provide a proper gitlike patch instead?
16:39 mathw Because I can do that
16:39 jnthn mathw: Not this time.
16:40 jnthn mathw: Send your next one that way, and we can both learn something. :-)
16:40 NorwayGeek joined #perl6
16:41 jnthn mathw: patch applied, thanks!
16:41 mathw :D
16:41 mathw jnthn++
16:41 jnthn mathw++
16:44 jnthn pmichaud: Focus for ng today/tomorrow?
16:46 PerlJam jnthn: get it working.   ;)
16:47 mathw Okay, I need to talk about some things to do with implementing when
16:47 mathw but I can't now, as it's time to go play music again
16:47 jnthn mathw: OK, just let us known when you've time. :-)
16:47 jnthn Happy musicing. :-)
16:47 mathw at the moment, it won't be much until sunday, I'm off to london tomorrow
16:48 jnthn Ooh, fun. :-)
16:48 mathw I won't be upset if I come back and find someone else has implemented when already
16:48 jnthn Well, I hope it will be fun anyway.
16:48 jaffa8 joined #perl6
16:48 mathw yeah it should be
16:48 jnthn Cool :-)
16:48 mathw Jonathan Coulton concert on Friday night, then the Greenwich Early Music Festival on Saturday
16:49 jnthn Nice
16:50 mathw I'm looking forward to it
16:50 moritz_ have the appropriate amount of fun :-)
16:50 mathw Thanks for all the help
16:50 mathw bye!
16:50 jnthn o/
16:50 TimToady 楽しんで!
16:52 pmichaud jnthn: nothing is at the top of my focus at the moment
16:52 pmichaud right now I'm working to get nqp into Parrot
16:52 jnthn pmichaud: OK, I'll Just Write Code then. :-)
16:52 pmichaud would like to do that today, so that we can resolve any other issues prior to release next week
16:53 jnthn *nod*
16:57 dalek nqp-rx: 660234b | pmichaud++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
16:57 dalek nqp-rx: Update bootstrapping.
16:57 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/6​60234b7166063e29045a26b5d48f2470face2dc
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17:12 ejs joined #perl6
17:12 PerlJam What's the difference betwen $<foo.ast> and $<foo>.ast ?  (what does the former mean?)
17:12 pmichaud the former would be  $/{'foo.ast'}
17:13 pmichaud it's likely an error.
17:13 PerlJam oh.
17:13 PerlJam See Actions.pm:273 then
17:13 PerlJam :)
17:14 pmichaud looks like a bug to me
17:15 jnthn Oh!
17:15 pmichaud fixing.
17:15 jnthn That's why my try statement is epic fail.
17:15 jnthn pmichaud: I'm right by there at the moment, I cna.
17:15 jnthn *can
17:15 pmichaud jnthn: okay, you can do it
17:15 pmichaud jnthn: are you working on try ?
17:16 jnthn pmichaud: Yeah
17:16 pmichaud okay.
17:16 jnthn pmichaud: Was there anything horribly wrong with the previous version?
17:16 pmichaud we might want some PAST refactors to do it right (the first set was a best guess at the time)
17:16 pmichaud and yes, the previous version really wasn't correctish
17:16 jnthn pmichaud: We'll, I've managed to turn one of the bits of inline PIR into PAST.
17:16 pmichaud it's more that it's semantically not correctish
17:17 jnthn std: do say 42
17:17 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 102m␤
17:17 jnthn gah, why do we report a missing block. :-|
17:17 pmichaud did you define statement_prefix:<do> ?
17:17 jnthn token statement_prefix:sym<do>    { <sym> <blorst> }
17:17 pmichaud hmmm
17:17 jnthn Figured it should be easy to add while doing "try2
17:18 pmichaud should be, yes.
17:18 jnthn oddly, try does seem to work.
17:18 jnthn well
17:18 jnthn "work"
17:18 pmichaud you'll need PerlJam++'s 273 fix
17:18 pmichaud to get it to work
17:18 pmichaud (to get "do" to work)
17:18 pmichaud does "do" work if followed by a block?
17:19 jnthn pmichaud: Yes.
17:19 pmichaud sounds like a parsing issue, then
17:20 jnthn > do say 42
17:20 jnthn Missing block at line 1, near "say 42\n"
17:20 jnthn > do { say 42 }
17:20 jnthn 42
17:20 lambdabot Not in scope: `say'
17:20 lambdabot Not in scope: `say'
17:21 pmichaud oh, blorst probably wants a <?[{]>
17:21 pmichaud if it calls block directly, then block will complain about the missing block before <statement> ever gets a chance at it
17:21 jnthn yeah, I'd just seen bplock panics.
17:21 jnthn right :-)
17:21 PerlJam | is still || semantics?
17:22 pmichaud at the moment, yes.
17:22 pmichaud I'll undoubtedly fix that soon, but it's not a huge blocker to progress
17:22 jnthn .oO( does blorst! sound like a good swear word to anyone else? )
17:22 jnthn pmichaud: Yes, that fixes it. \o/
17:22 jnthn pmichaud: And my try impl hangs. :-)
17:23 jnthn Oh...maybe I need to bring back the Exception class.
17:24 arnsholt jnthn: "blorst" sounds more like an onomatopoetikon to me
17:24 pmichaud "You think that keyword is cute today...."
17:25 PerlJam "onomatopoetikon"?
17:25 * PerlJam has never seen -kon like  that
17:26 PerlJam or, I guess -tikon is the suffix
17:30 arnsholt PerlJam: I don't really know Greek, so I'm not 100% that's the right spelling, but I think it's right
17:30 arnsholt Means sound word, at any rate
17:32 PerlJam I think "onomatopoeia" is it's own descriptor.  i.e.  "blorst" sounds more like an onomatopoeia to me.
17:33 PerlJam or  "blorst" is very onomatopoeic
17:35 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
17:35 jnthn OK, we have do and try
17:35 jnthn And borst fixes
17:35 jnthn However, we can't die yet.
17:36 jnthn So we only pass half of try.t :-)
17:36 moritz_ "yes, we can"
17:36 jnthn moritz_: Letting us die is my next task. :-)
17:36 PerlJam moritz_: I think jnthn means we can only die unexpectedly.  :)
17:37 PerlJam euthanasia is not an option
17:38 jnthn Amusingly, right now we die while trying to die...
17:39 pmichaud recursive die considered harmful
17:39 jnthn > die "omg"
17:39 jnthn Could not find non-existent sub &die
17:39 lambdabot Not in scope: `die'
17:39 jnthn lambdabot: Exactly.
17:39 moritz_ lol
17:40 jnthn I think die got patched recently in master too...
17:40 jnthn Hmm...can probably write some of this in the setting though.
17:40 moritz_ jnthn: and we jumped from 152 to 169 passing spectests :-)
17:41 cognominal joined #perl6
17:41 jnthn moritz_: omg 3 figures now?!
17:41 jnthn moritz_: Which ones, out of curiosity?
17:42 moritz_ (tests, not test files)
17:42 PerlJam std:  BEGIN say 42;
17:42 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 102m␤
17:42 PerlJam std: END say 42;
17:42 jnthn moritz_: aye, but last time I saw that number it was < 100
17:42 p6eval std 29059: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Missing block at /tmp/PyljtTh21x line 1:␤------> [32mEND [33m⏏[31msay 42;[0m␤FAILED 00:01 95m␤
17:43 allbery_b joined #perl6
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17:44 PerlJam rakudo has END as a statement prefix, but STD seems to disagree.
17:44 PerlJam s/rakudo/rakudo-ng/
17:44 pmichaud hmmm
17:44 moritz_ S02-builtin_data_types/parsing-bool.t 03-operators/assign-is-not-binding.t S03-operators/scalar-assign.t S03-operators/relational.t 04-statements/until.t S06-signature/closure-parameters.rakudo S12-class/inheritance-class-methods.t S32-str/append.t
17:44 pmichaud std has
17:44 pmichaud rule statement_control:END     {<sym> <block> }
17:44 pmichaud interesting.
17:45 jnthn Curious. The others are all prefixes.
17:45 PerlJam I think STD makes more sense though
17:45 * jnthn wonders if it's a fossil or deliberate
17:46 jnthn PerlJam: How so?
17:46 PerlJam BEGIN et alia can all provide some value to the runtime.  END can't.
17:46 jnthn PerlJam: Ah, good point.
17:46 jnthn so my $x = END 42 is a bit...well...
17:47 pmichaud well, END *can* provide a value to the runtime, once we add wormholes.
17:47 PerlJam pmichaud: have you been hanging out with Damian lately?  :)
17:47 pmichaud That one comes from TimToady++, actually.  See S04.
17:50 pmichaud (although it _could_ have originated with Damian :-)
17:50 allbery_b joined #perl6
17:51 jnthn 12-try.t passes again.
17:51 pmichaud \o/
17:51 jnthn pmichaud: That only leaves one file. ;-)
17:52 pmichaud I still haven't seen Mr Regex Man around yet.
17:52 jnthn Damm.
17:52 jnthn Which of us is gonna figure this out?
17:52 pmichaud oh, I'll do it
17:52 pmichaud it's not problem, really -- just hasn't been ripe yet relative to other priorities
17:52 pmichaud it's not really a blocker to running tests
17:52 jnthn OK. :-)
17:52 pmichaud except for those that might want to do pattern matching on the results
17:53 jnthn I did put parsing ~~ and stuff back in.
17:53 jnthn In fact, implemented ~~ in the setting too. :-)
17:53 pmichaud right now ~~ just calls infix:<~~>, yes?
17:53 jnthn yes
17:53 pmichaud that'll have to change a bit.
17:53 jnthn Oh?
17:53 jnthn Oh, there's some special forms...
17:53 pmichaud right.
17:53 jnthn Yeah.
17:53 pmichaud ~~ requires some syntactic analysis.  still, the version you have works for now.
17:53 jnthn Sure
17:54 pmichaud but technically it's a cheat with bugs :)
17:54 jnthn And we fall back to that anyway.
17:54 pmichaud right
17:54 jnthn So it's not wrong, just incomplete. :-)
17:54 pmichaud any ideas about the best way to tackle the spectests?
17:54 jnthn BTW, can we put the logic in a method infix:sym<~~> in actions.pm ?
17:54 pmichaud I'd like to do that, yes.
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17:55 pmichaud I haven't quite figured out where it should go yet.
17:55 jnthn We piled loads of bits into EXPR before, which got a tad...well.. :-)
17:55 pmichaud we may want it to be done as a reducecheck, similar to what is done for ternary in STD and NQP
17:55 jnthn On the spectests...
17:55 pmichaud I think 'reducecheck' needs to be generalized just a bit more.
17:56 jnthn I'd really like to get us a target - or just have spectest itself as this - that contains stuff we know that we've got passing.
17:56 PerlJam I can always count on #perl for having conversations that look like they are in english, but are clearly *not*.  :)
17:57 [1]jaffa8 joined #perl6
17:57 jnthn So we have an easy way to say "we just took a step forward, but did we take two steps back by accident"
17:57 pmichaud we could always copy spectest.data to spectest-master
17:57 jnthn Yeah
17:57 pmichaud and then comment things out in spectest.data
17:57 pmichaud (or remove them)
17:57 jnthn Commenting out means easy to re-enable.
17:57 pmichaud actually, just commenting spectest.data might be enough
17:57 pmichaud I suggest we do that
17:57 jnthn Same.
17:58 * moritz_ volunteers
17:58 jnthn moritz_: Go for it!
17:58 [2]jaffa8 joined #perl6
17:58 jnthn moritz_: Leave uncommented the ones we're already passing. :-)
17:58 pmichaud then I was just going to start looking for tests that I think are lhf and re-enabling them
17:58 jnthn Yeah
17:58 diakopter std: my $_'hihi'_
17:58 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 101m␤
17:58 pmichaud sounds like a plan.
17:58 jnthn OK, great.
17:59 pmichaud std:  my $damian_'EvilMadman'_conway
17:59 p6eval std 29059: ok 00:01 101m␤
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18:02 PerlJam I wonder how many other compilers parse a superset of the language they are for so that the compiler can generate better error messages?
18:03 _eMaX_1 joined #perl6
18:03 PerlJam I'm sure other compilers do it to some small degree, but Perl seems to go far and away beyond reason to help the programmer.
18:04 jnthn Oh
18:04 moritz_ pushed changes to t/spectest.data
18:04 jnthn We don't handle =begin yet.
18:04 pmichaud steal the one from nqp
18:04 jnthn ok
18:04 pmichaud it's pretty close.
18:04 jnthn That may quickly win back a few more tests...
18:04 pmichaud indeed, it's very likely to do that
18:05 TimToady I can argue myself into making most of the phasers take blorsts
18:05 pmichaud TimToady: it works out fine for us either way.
18:05 TimToady END say my $accum;
18:06 TimToady I just worry about CATCH a bit, since it has an argument
18:06 pmichaud the question is more whether END is a prefix or a control
18:06 TimToady or at least a $! of its own, maybe
18:06 TimToady but maybe not...
18:06 TimToady well, a $_ of its own
18:08 PerlJam TimToady: when an END blorst throws an exception, who is left to catch it?
18:08 PerlJam (assuming a universe where ENDs have blorsts)
18:09 pmichaud s/END blorst/END phaser?
18:09 moritz_ t/spec/S03-operators/equality.t nearly passes, just  not ok 6 - Undef eq '' doesn't
18:09 TimToady same person who catches it if you use a block and don't put a CATCH into it :)
18:12 TimToady we should consider the mainline code to be inside a "unit" subroutine in any case
18:12 jnthn pmichaud: (pod) worked great. :-)
18:12 TimToady not just to assume a try around it, but also to allow fail to return somewhere
18:13 TimToady so we don't get the stupid "return outside sub" error
18:13 pmichaud makes good sense
18:13 pmichaud I can make that happen pretty easily.
18:14 TimToady maybe the name of that sub is &?UNIT
18:14 TimToady at least inside it :)
18:15 PerlJam TimToady: Hmm.   Do you mean something different than "compilation unit" there?  Like around all compilation units?
18:15 TimToady well &?ROUTINE should work anyway
18:16 TimToady something gets "called" for any compilation unit, so we might as well think of those as anonymous routines of some kind
18:16 TimToady not clear what namespace they live in
18:16 PerlJam AETHER  :)
18:16 TimToady they haven't lived in any namespace so far
18:16 TimToady but we can at least name them from the inside via &?ROUTINE, I suspect
18:21 jnthn pmichaud: lolhalp
18:21 jnthn pmichaud: Parsing issue
18:21 jnthn class Foo { } # oh noes
18:21 jnthn class Bar { }
18:21 jnthn Results in Confused
18:21 jnthn However, remoiving the comment makes it happy again.
18:22 jnthn ENDSTMT looks like the one in NQP, fwiw
18:22 pmichaud looking
18:23 moritz_ nqp: class Foo { }; class Bar { }
18:23 p6eval nqp:  ( no output )
18:23 moritz_ rakudo: say ''
18:23 p6eval rakudo d04cce: ␤
18:23 moritz_ nqp: class Foo { } # oh noes␤ class Bar { }
18:23 p6eval nqp: Confused at line 1, near "class Foo "␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 448 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤
18:23 moritz_ nqp is also confused.
18:23 jnthn *nod*
18:23 jnthn I'd forgotten that NQP also knows the block form now.
18:24 pmichaud oh
18:25 pmichaud I see the problem.
18:25 pmichaud checking STD
18:25 pmichaud neither NQP nor ng handle the case of comments after a closing brace yet
18:26 pmichaud we need the <unv> subrule for that.
18:29 jnthn pmichaud: The one in STD looks vaguely copy-pastable.
18:29 jnthn The dba aside
18:32 pmichaud well, we'd have to fix up the <comment> protoregex, too.
18:33 jnthn pmichaud: yeah, doing that atm.
18:35 pugs_svn r29060 | lwall++ | [S04] liberalize phaser blorsts somewhat for more consistency, PerlJam++
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18:45 pmichaud jnthn: any luck yet?
18:46 jnthn pmichaud: no, I'm just causing epic fail :-/
18:46 pmichaud I'll take a look shortly, then.
18:47 pmichaud getting the ws handling correct can be a bit tricky.
18:47 pmichaud do we need comments-after-brace to be able to handle some more spectests?
18:49 jnthn pmichaud: It and the POD were the things that failed the parsing of S12-class/basic.t
18:49 jnthn Which I think we have a decent chance of passing without too many extra bits.
18:49 TimToady gee, if only it were block and statement, we could have 'phaser blasts'
18:50 pmichaud can the comments in S12-class/basic.t be reasonably moved?
18:50 pmichaud i.e., are they relevant to the thing being tested?
18:50 TimToady it can be unreasonably moved :)
18:50 jnthn pmichaud: Well, it could, but... :-/
18:51 jnthn pmichaud: Feels like we should kinda get whitespace parsing right sooner rather than later. :-)
18:51 pmichaud I'm having to do a bit of $otherjob at the moment.
18:51 jnthn Sure
18:51 pmichaud I can absolutely have it fixed in a few hours
18:51 TimToady it's pretty fundamental...
18:51 jnthn I think I'm going to have to leave this to you.
18:51 pmichaud it's not that hard, just intricate
18:51 jnthn Yes.
18:51 jnthn And there's things in here that STD doesn't have.
18:51 frettled pmichaud: Thanks for that excellent quote.
18:51 jnthn And while e.g. <!ww> I can see how maps to something in STD
18:52 jnthn <?MARKER('endstmt')> I kinda can't. :-)
18:52 pmichaud <?MARKER()>  and <?MARKED()>  are HLL::Grammar's version of the $*MEMO arra
18:52 pmichaud *array
18:52 jnthn MARKED sets a marker, MARKER checks for it?
18:52 pmichaud yes
18:53 pmichaud basically, "set a marker at this position" and "check if this position has this marker set"
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18:58 diakopter strolbs
19:00 [particle] poblorbl - pointy block or block
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19:01 jnthn pmichaud: well lol. Now I can't even parse normal comments. It's all yours, when you've time later. :-)
19:02 jnthn pmichaud: http://gist.github.com/233185 if you want to chuckle at my failpatch. :-)
19:02 * jnthn moves the comment
19:02 jnthn (locally)
19:02 * moritz_ also tried to do POD, ws and comments properly, and failed
19:03 jnthn moritz_: Yeah. It's...subtle.
19:05 jnthn oh you're kidding...S12-class/basic.t (ab)uses list comprehensions too!
19:05 moritz_ "basic"
19:05 jnthn std: is  (class A61354_1 { eval q/method x { "OH HAI" }/ }; A61354_1.x), 'OH HAI'
19:05 p6eval std 29060: Undeclared routine:␤  is used at line 1␤ok 00:01 105m␤
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19:06 pugs_svn r29061 | lwall++ | [S06] some phaser defossilization
19:08 TimToady had to read that error message several times, which is LTA
19:10 diakopter std: our ::_
19:10 p6eval std 29060: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal redeclaration of symbol _ (from line 1) at /tmp/WFMRVKvzAl line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32mour ::_[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤    expecting any of:␤      declarator␤       multi_declarator␤ typename␤       whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 100m␤
19:10 diakopter std: our ::$_
19:10 p6eval std 29060: Potential difficulties:␤  Useless redeclaration of variable $_ (from line 1) at /tmp/0yAd1be2O8 line 1:␤------> [32mour ::$_[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤ok 00:01 101m␤
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19:11 diakopter std: my $$$$$$$$$$$
19:11 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 101m␤
19:12 diakopter std: my %%%()
19:12 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 101m␤
19:13 TimToady std: my % % %()
19:13 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 101m␤
19:14 TimToady std: my %[] [%] %()
19:14 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 101m␤
19:14 dalek nqp-rx: 7b4f3e7 | pmichaud++ | src/stage0/ (4 files):
19:14 dalek nqp-rx: More bootstrap file regeneration.
19:14 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/7​b4f3e7e2d9efc081de956b2b0d28a15b856d124
19:14 dalek nqp-rx: 0b3c754 | pmichaud++ |  (27 files):
19:14 dalek nqp-rx: Remove trailing spaces from a lot of files, to make Parrot happier.
19:14 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/0​b3c754824bfc2ec0ddd604ec7c3c0dd44c25dd5
19:16 jnthn Whee. We make it through 26 our of 33 in S12-class/basic.t now.
19:17 pmichaud sometimes I think that we could write STD.pm shorter as      token TOP { .* { say 'ok' } }    :-P
19:18 pmichaud but then I see STD's awesome error messages and think... wellllllll
19:18 diakopter std: my ()
19:18 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 102m␤
19:18 TimToady std: my %[] [%] %[]
19:18 p6eval std 29060: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Anonymous variable requires declarator at /tmp/DM8uFURo0s line 1:␤------> [32mmy %[] [%] %[33m⏏[31m[][0m␤    expecting twigil␤FAILED 00:01 101m␤
19:18 TimToady std: my %[] [%] my %[]
19:18 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 101m␤
19:18 jnthn pmichaud: That approach is all well and good until you get to assigning semantics to what was parsed. ;-)
19:19 diakopter std: my ([]);
19:19 p6eval std 29060: ok 00:01 103m␤
19:19 pmichaud token TOP { .* { qqx{rakudo '$/'} } }
19:19 pmichaud # first approximation?
19:19 jnthn lol
19:32 jnthn In proclaim((not defined $!), $reason);
19:33 jnthn Should that not be parsed by
19:33 jnthn token prefix:sym<true> { <sym> >> <O('%loose_unary')> }
19:33 jnthn ?
19:34 jnthn I'm seeing that
19:34 jnthn say not 0
19:35 jnthn Is.
19:36 jnthn I suspect there's something odd-ish going on especially because:
19:36 jnthn > say true 1
19:36 jnthn 1
19:36 jnthn > say not true 0
19:36 jnthn Could not find non-existent sub &postfix:<true>
19:36 jnthn ...postfix?
19:37 masak joined #perl6
19:38 jnthn yayitsmasak!
19:38 pugs_svn r29062 | lwall++ | [STD] more blorstification, more quotes in error messages
19:38 masak \o/
19:38 moritz_ lolitsmasak.
19:39 masak I was to a surreal play about handimen, but now I'm back.
19:40 jnthn That's...not the most usual activity, but sounds fun all the same. :-)
19:43 pmichaud I'm guessing the prefix/postfix logic is a bit messed up in EXPR, then.
19:43 jnthn pmichaud: I just glanced at it, and there are LOADS of dragons in there, so I'm going to the store to buy beer.
19:44 takadonet dragons....
19:44 jnthn .oO( so today I learned that I don't understand whitespace and expressions in Perl 6... )
19:44 * jnthn also needs to eat soonish
19:44 jnthn Anyway, bbs.
19:54 PerlJam okay, I'm confused.    I thought I'd implement something since I was in Grammar.pm and Actions.pm anyway, so I hacked up the unless statement modifier which worked great.  Then I decided to add in "if" as well, and I get this error:  invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'.
19:55 PerlJam If I set :pasttype('unless'), works great.  If I set :pasttype(~$<sym>), I get that error.
19:55 moritz_ 'unless' is more correct anyway :-)
19:56 PerlJam it's correct for "unless", but not "if"  :)
19:56 PerlJam This is the diff with the unless :pasttype only: http://gist.github.com/233220
19:57 moritz_ I mean if you use ~$<sym>, and somebody overrides the sym, it'll fail to generate the code
19:57 PerlJam (both if and unless have the same semantics)
19:57 PerlJam I thought I could give if and unless the proper semantics by just putting the $<sym> in the :pasttype
19:57 PerlJam what am I missing?
19:58 PerlJam ah, never mind, I think I just realized  :)
19:58 pmichaud ...which <sym> are you adding?
19:59 pmichaud be careful with the statement modifiers -- they're a bit tricky also.  Check the master branch for some hints there.
20:00 PerlJam pmichaud: don't scare me away!  :)
20:01 jaffa8 left #perl6
20:02 pmichaud just identifying the potential dragons :-)
20:02 dalek nqp-rx: 1bc1af6 | pmichaud++ | src/stage0/ (4 files):
20:02 dalek nqp-rx: Update bootstrap files with pod-valid forms.
20:02 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/1​bc1af693d7cf5dc70f5c18b1939be5c0fdb591e
20:02 dalek nqp-rx: 1a8e0dc | pmichaud++ | src/ (4 files):
20:02 dalek nqp-rx: Clean up pod comments in source files.
20:02 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/1​a8e0dc276410559c92bd92c23b457ca6a713614
20:03 PerlJam I was trying to pick something easyish without dragons
20:03 moritz_ :-)
20:03 pmichaud right.  see my talks.  "things that look simple often aren't."
20:03 pmichaud "things that look hard often aren't."  is in there too, though.
20:04 pmichaud statement modifiers are indeed on the easy-ish side, but the naive implementations can have some issues.  Thus look at the master branch for some ideas :)
20:04 payload joined #perl6
20:05 * jnthn back
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20:18 PerlJam woo nqp sure does blow up if you use "=" instead of ":="
20:21 mathw But it does tell you why!
20:21 jnthn At least it blows up in a helpful way now.
20:22 PerlJam yeah, but I got like 50 lines of output from compiling Actions.pm and it's only the first one that was really important to me
20:23 * mathw is back (obviously)
20:23 pmichaud I'm still looking to implement more useful backtrace information into HLL compiler (a la Rakudo master)
20:24 pmichaud in fact, #parrot was just discussing backtraces :-)
20:25 pmichaud if someone wanted to translate the backtracking code from Rakudo master into some NQP-ish equivalent, that'd be a huge help :-)
20:25 pmichaud don't have to worry about catching the exceptions, just something that does similar logic for creating the messages
20:25 pmichaud s/backtracking/backtracing/
20:26 pmichaud should even be easier now, since NQP does interpolations into qq{...}  and "...", including closure interpolations :-)
20:28 seanstickle left #perl6
20:30 PerlJam pmichaud: so, should I check in my naive-doesn't-take-dragons-into-account statement conditional modifier code?
20:30 pmichaud PerlJam: if you're comfortable with it, sure!
20:31 pmichaud I'll review it a bit later
20:31 pmichaud if you wanted to write an equivalent for NQP, that'd be awesome also :)
20:32 pmichaud (they should be very similar)
20:32 pmichaud time to do school pickups
20:32 pmichaud bbi30
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20:42 masak \o/ new perl.org design! very nice!
20:43 moritz_ \o/ indeed
20:43 masak clean, elegant, modern...
20:43 masak couldn't be better, IMO.
20:44 PerlJam It could do without the flash.
20:44 PerlJam but ++ to whoever updated it!  :)
20:44 payload joined #perl6
20:45 moritz_ it stopped mentioning Perl 6 on the front page :(
20:45 moritz_ and the dev page still links to the auld page
20:45 ejs joined #perl6
20:46 moritz_ ng at 159 passing tests
20:46 moritz_ *spectests
20:47 PerlJam urk.  I didn't enable the spectests for the postfix if/unless statement modifiers.
20:48 payload joined #perl6
20:48 moritz_ that's because they don't pass
20:48 moritz_ my @x = 41, (42 if $answer), 43;
20:48 moritz_ ng doesn't like that
20:49 moritz_ PerlJam: I run tools/update_passing_test_data.pl periodically to detect new passes
20:50 PerlJam ah
20:50 PerlJam good to know
20:50 moritz_ so you don't need to worry about forgotten spectests
21:01 jnthn (perl.org) Big improvement! :-)
21:02 moritz_ as always I have my complaints :-)
21:02 moritz_ but it's better than before, yes
21:02 moritz_ (for example all external links open in new windows/tabs - this is 90ies)
21:05 pmichaud oooh, perl.org!  shiny!
21:06 * pmichaud spins the books a while on the learn.html page
21:06 pugs_svn r29063 | masak++ | [docs/feather] minor grammar-o fix
21:06 sjohnson pretty clean looking
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21:11 masak Juerd: ping
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21:18 pugs_svn r29064 | moritz++ | [evalbot] don't try to build blizkost, it's bit-rotten
21:19 dukeleto blizkost has bit-rot?
21:19 dukeleto news to me
21:19 dukeleto what is up with it?
21:19 moritz_ pcc reapply branch
21:19 moritz_ or did I miss something?
21:20 moritz_ rakudo: say eval('2', :lang<perl5>)
21:20 p6eval rakudo d04cce:  ( no output )
21:20 moritz_ at least the installation on p6eval's server doesn't work
21:23 jnthn pcc reapply would have hurt it lots.
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21:39 jnthn pmichaud: oh noes build fail
21:39 jnthn pmichaud: Looks like Parrot / NQP issue.
21:39 jnthn .\pbc_to_exe.exe parrot-nqp.pbc
21:39 jnthn rc parrot-nqp.rc
21:39 jnthn parrot-nqp.rc (3): error RC2135 : file not found: parrot
21:39 jnthn RC command failed
21:43 jnthn pmichaud: oh, epic weird
21:43 jnthn pmichaud: If I make that parrotnqp instead of parrot-nqp in the makefile, it all works. :-|
21:43 jnthn (otherwise it goes looking for a file called just 'parrot')
21:46 * moritz_ is to blame, probably
21:47 moritz_ jnthn: how's the nqp executable called on your platform?
21:47 moritz_ it's parrot_install/bin/parrot-nqp here
21:48 jnthn $(PARROT_BIN_DIR)\nqp$(EXE)
21:48 jnthn Well, that's what Rakudo ng is using anyway...
21:48 moritz_ jnthn: did you git pull and reconfigure?
21:48 jnthn But I guess that is really nqp-rx.
21:48 jnthn moritz_: No no, it's Parrot that's failing to build.
21:48 moritz_ oh.
21:49 moritz_ then I'm not to blame ;-)
21:49 jnthn Since the last revision bump.
21:49 jnthn Aye, I was thinking not. :-)
21:49 jnthn I think pmichaud++ is working on getting nqp-rx into Parrot today.
21:49 jnthn So probably related to that.
21:49 japhb jnthn, it's in
21:49 japhb r42461
21:50 jnthn Aye, that's what's in PARROT_REVISION too.
21:51 jnthn oh, just changed _ to - ?
21:51 jnthn Ouch!
21:51 jnthn Maybe pbc2exe missing sone quoting.
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21:55 pmichaud msvc or windows doesn't like hyphens in names?
21:56 quietfanatic joined #perl6
21:59 jnthn pmichaud: Suspect windows command line...
22:00 jnthn pmichaud: I think the issue is something at the point of doing pbc to exe
22:00 jnthn I'm hoping it may be a lack of quoting or something else silly, that's easily fixed.
22:01 pmichaud if the problem is in a command produced by pbc_to_exe, it may not be so easily fixed.
22:02 jnthn Oh.
22:02 jnthn Because?
22:02 pmichaud well, we'd need to fix pbc_to_exe
22:02 pmichaud and it may be getting its stuff from parrot configure
22:02 pmichaud and....
22:02 pmichaud it might be easy :)
22:03 pmichaud but it might not.
22:03 jnthn heh, where's the source for pbc to exe?
22:03 pmichaud tools/dev/pbc_to_exe.pir, I think
22:04 jnthn ah, yes,
22:06 jnthn pmichaud: testing attempted fix
22:09 jnthn offs
22:10 jnthn pmichaud: Umm.
22:10 jnthn pmichaud: Even quoting it at the shell doesn't help.
22:11 jnthn pmichaud: The rc program still goes looking for parrot
22:11 jnthn stripping off the -nqp.rc
22:11 pmichaud ..... ".rc"?
22:11 pmichaud never heard of *that*
22:11 pmichaud I guess windows doesn't allow hyphens in command names?
22:11 jnthn *snort*
22:12 jnthn "Options are not case sensitive, and a hyphen (-) can be used in place of a slash mark (/)"
22:12 pmichaud yeah, but without even a space?
22:12 pmichaud I suppose we can go back to parrot_nqp...but... ugh.
22:13 * [particle]1 regularly names perl files t-whatever-i-am-testing.pl
22:13 [particle] and both 't-foo.pl' and 'perl t-foo.pl' work fine
22:13 jnthn Yeah, I've not seen this come up before.
22:14 jnthn oh hmm, wait a mo
22:14 jnthn oh
22:14 jnthn it's not the filename going to RC it seems
22:14 jnthn It's an issue inside the resoruce file
22:15 jnthn ah
22:15 jnthn adding some quotes in there maybe helps
22:16 jnthn Seems so
22:16 jnthn yes
22:17 jnthn pmichaud: patched
22:18 pmichaud what got patched?
22:18 jnthn pbc_to_exe
22:18 jnthn It wasn't quoting a name it probably needed to.
22:18 jnthn (If the name had non-ident chars, the .rc file it wrote was invalid.)
22:19 * [particle] fires up his x86 parrot devel vm
22:19 jnthn The resulting executable works.
22:19 jnthn So I figure it's kosher.
22:21 KatrinaTheLamia joined #perl6
22:23 jnthn afauk, does ng handle things like 1.0 yet?
22:24 pmichaud not yet
22:24 jnthn k
22:24 pmichaud that one is pretty easy at the moment -- Perl6Str knows how to convert strings to numbers
22:24 pmichaud we probably want to rewrite the number conversion in PIR instead of C, though
22:25 pmichaud but that can be later
22:25 jnthn Does it know how to do the Right Thing with regard to Rat?
22:25 jnthn Or are we putting that off a little?
22:25 pmichaud putting it off a little if going through Perl6Str
22:25 KatrinaTheLamia joined #perl6
22:25 jnthn k, wfm
22:26 pmichaud it's a bit recursive -- I suspect that String-to-number conversion will want to parse using the grammar, which will then want to be able to do the conversion using the string-to-number conversion :)
22:26 * masak reads that and gets dizzy
22:27 masak pmichaud: is the capitalization of String/string significant?
22:27 pmichaud not in that sentence
22:27 pmichaud I suspect that Str.Num will, at some level, end up calling into the grammar to parse its contents
22:27 jnthn eek
22:27 jnthn OK
22:28 pmichaud but inside the grammar, we'll want to be able to convert the characters we find there into their "numeric" equivalents
22:28 pmichaud we already do this for integers, that's not too challenging
22:28 pmichaud it's just figuring out the algorithm for doing the same for   123.457E123
22:28 moritz_ and then call Rat.new() from that
22:29 pmichaud well, I suspect that E123 implies "not a rat", too
22:29 moritz_ erm yes, didn't se that E
22:29 jnthn Me either.
22:29 jnthn :-/
22:29 jnthn Maybe it wants to be "e"
22:29 pmichaud we may want to get STD.pm to parse dec_number in terms of whole and fractional components
22:29 pmichaud currently it doesn't do that
22:30 jnthn nqp: sub has-a-hypthen() { }
22:30 p6eval nqp: Routine declaration requires a signature at line 1, near "-a-hypthen"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 448 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤
22:30 jnthn ...
22:30 * jnthn suspects Rakudo has the same idea as ng on hypthens. :-)
22:31 pmichaud haven't added apostrophes or hyphens in identifiers yet
22:31 pmichaud feel free t oadd
22:31 jnthn Sure
22:31 * jnthn is putting lots of little bits back
22:31 pmichaud I'd be doing the same but have distractions here :-(
22:31 jnthn We can probably throw most of Any-num.pm back in place quite easily.
22:32 jnthn I'm just hunting the parse issues atm.
22:32 pmichaud the code for num from master is workable for now
22:32 pmichaud (for parsing num and converting to float)
22:33 jnthn (secretly, I want to get the trig functions working again soon. then I can say I made thousands of tests pass again. ;-))
22:33 PerlJam pmichaud: gimme commit on nqp-rx and I'll add if/unless statement modifiers.   Or would you prefer a patch?
22:34 pmichaud hugme add PerlJam to nqp-rx
22:34 hugme pmichaud: ERROR: Can't add PerlJam to nqp-rx:  404 Not Found
22:34 moritz_ erm
22:34 moritz_ hugme add PerlJam to nqp-rx
22:34 hugme moritz_: ERROR: Can't add PerlJam to nqp-rx:  404 Not Found
22:34 pmichaud hugme list projects
22:34 hugme pmichaud: I know about book, hugme, json, november, nqp-rx, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
22:34 moritz_ PerlJam: what's your github id?
22:34 PerlJam moritz_: perlpilot
22:34 pmichaud oh, yeah
22:34 japhb PerlJam, extra points for while, until, and for in statement modifier form.  ;-)
22:35 Whiteknight joined #perl6
22:35 moritz_ perlpilot?
22:35 pmichaud ....for is special, might want to leave it out
22:35 PerlJam japhb: those will come later tonight if all goes well.
22:35 PerlJam moritz_: aye.
22:35 moritz_ hugme: add perlpilot to nqp-rx
22:35 * hugme hugs perlpilot. Welcome to nqp-rx!
22:35 japhb pmichaud, fair enough.  Never hurts to ask.  ;-)
22:35 pmichaud 'for' will require some block wrapping and management of $_
22:36 japhb nodnod
22:37 pmichaud it's fine to attempt 'for', but we likely want some $_ refactoring to take place for it
22:38 quietfanatic rakudo: say :( 4 ).perl
22:38 p6eval rakudo d04cce: :(Int ::TYPE_CAPTURE20 where all({ ... }))␤
22:38 quietfanatic Somehow I don't think I'm introspecting that
22:38 mst joined #perl6
22:38 masak guys, I just had an hour-long privmsg discussion with mst++.
22:38 masak here he is. :)
22:39 dalek nqp-rx: b7ce35e | duff++ |  (4 files):
22:39 dalek nqp-rx: [nqp] Added postfix conditional statement modifiers (if/unless)
22:39 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/b​7ce35ed1a60d547c267d2b334536407e37a2986
22:39 masak it was a bout the "Perl 6 is not Perl" blog post that I made a few days ago.
22:39 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'November 12 2009 -- some serious history awareness': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39889?from=rss
22:39 payload joined #perl6
22:39 masak hm, I should link to it from that post. hold on.
22:40 japhb PerlJam++ # Damn, that was fast
22:40 masak I feel that what mst and I discussed is important for the long-term future of the Perl 5 and Perl 6 communities.
22:40 masak I'm in no position to summarize it right now, but I will try.
22:40 japhb PerlJam, are you aware of http://wiki.github.com/per​l6/nqp-rx/plumage-requests
22:41 japhb ?
22:41 PerlJam nope
22:41 PerlJam well, vaguely
22:41 sjohnson hi masak
22:42 mst I'm also in no position to summarize it right now
22:42 masak sjohnson: o/
22:42 mst but we're hoping between us we won't screw it up too badly
22:42 masak nod.
22:42 japhb PerlJam, you just knocked a couple things off the request list, so I'll go fix that now.  :-)
22:42 moritz_ sounds like a good starting point ;-)
22:42 masak (1) mst explained to me where the "Perl 6 isn't Perl" meme, the strong dislike for the name "Perl 6", and the feeling that Perl 6 is a 'research project' are all coming from.
22:42 payload1 joined #perl6
22:43 masak it was refreshing to hear that story from an entrenched Perl5er.
22:43 synth joined #perl6
22:43 PerlJam mst:  what was the first perl you used?
22:43 mst PerlJam: perl5 v5_003
22:44 masak (2) the fundamental problem, if I got this correctly, is that the name/version "Perl 6" frames Perl 6 as being unequivocably better, a priori, than Perl 5.
22:44 PerlJam masak: well, it is!  ;)
22:44 masak in that sense, the name itself is a problem.
22:44 masak PerlJam: yes, I know, but... :)
22:44 masak PerlJam: please listen. :)
22:45 moritz_ I can see how that is a problem.
22:45 mst PerlJam: I accept that you believe it is.
22:45 mst I think in some respects -I- believe it is
22:45 mst the problem is
22:45 masak (3) that naming issue is like a red flag for (a fraction of) the Perl 5 community. it won't matter what you say, they'll basically hate a priori, too.
22:46 mst ... that any conversation starting a priori with the assumption that perl6 is better than perl5
22:46 PerlJam mst: Perl 5 still wins in one very big category though.  It's "complete" and stable and useable and has CPAN and a large community and ... okay maybe more than one thing
22:46 mst leaves no room for disagreement, discussion and debate
22:46 masak right.
22:46 masak (4) Perl 6 being "the next (major) version of Perl" is harmful in much the same way.
22:47 masak it presupposes that Perl 5 will be replaced and go away.
22:47 PerlJam masak: you should just cut-n-paste this to your blog  since you're writing it anyway
22:47 masak I don't think many here think that, at least not short-term.
22:47 masak PerlJam: no, we have better plans. :)
22:47 PerlJam awesome.
22:47 mst which then implies, albeit I presume unintentionally, that all the work being done on perl5 in the meantime is merely a stopgap.
22:48 masak PerlJam: this is internal discussion. I just want your reactions.
22:48 colomon jnthn: I'm very eager to help you get the trig functions running in ng.  :)
22:48 mst "all your work only exists as a stopgap until we obsolete you because we are the next version whether you agree or not" is ... not an effective position from which to make somebody like you.
22:49 hcchien joined #perl6
22:49 mst and while I'm exaggerating slightly, that's very much the perception given to a fair percentage of the people I speak to
22:49 masak (5, and finally) though the name "Perl 6" is a problem, much of the animosity could be fixed with a slight re-framing of the relation between Perl 5 and Perl 6.
22:49 masak mst outlined that re-framing, and I think I like it.
22:49 pmichaud I know I'm interjecting here, and mst+masak have likely already discussed it, but what can Perl 6 leaders do to avoid the "Perl 5 is obsolete" meme?
22:49 masak pmichaud: patience. :)
22:49 pmichaud right
22:49 masak I'm getting there.
22:50 pmichaud I just want to go on record as saying that in no way do I see Perl 5 as obsolete
22:50 mst pmichaud: plan A: invent a time machine and pick a better name and a constructive marketing strategy. but since that hasn't already happened, clearly it failed, so on to plan B with no further discussion thereof.
22:50 PerlJam Anyone who thinks perl 5 is obsolete is patently insane IMHO
22:50 masak pmichaud: nod. and I don't think people here, in general, do.
22:50 pmichaud masak: we're in agreement there
22:50 * moritz_ is eager to hear Plan B
22:51 mst PerlJam: and yet if I quoted your "<@PerlJam> masak: well, it is!  ;)" comment out of context, it could trivially be construed as such.
22:51 PerlJam and all of the work that's going into perl 5 is not a stopgap so much as easing us into the future that may include a perl 6.
22:51 masak mst: exactly.
22:51 pmichaud msg +1
22:52 pmichaud er, mst +1
22:52 pmichaud the "well, it is!"  comment is exactly the sort of thing I would think that would irritate someone worried about p5 obsolesence :)
22:52 masak mst++ outlined his "least divisive way" to express his opinion: Perl 6 and Perl 5 are two different languages that are part of the same family. that's the reframing.
22:53 pmichaud that's the mental framing I've had for quite a while now
22:53 masak my addendum to that was to express it as "Same family, different lineages."
22:53 mst which I very much like
22:53 masak that captures that it's two different codebases.
22:53 mst pmichaud: if http://dev.perl.org/perl6/ said that it would help.
22:53 mst speaking as the man running the perl-org-patches list
22:53 pmichaud mst: We can make that happen.
22:53 mst such a patch would be very very welcome
22:53 pmichaud perl6.org should say it also
22:54 moritz_ mst: I'd rather have that on perl6.org and obsolte dv.perl.org/perl6/ in favor of it
22:54 mst oh, and if you think my list can't achieve anything, I present http://www.perl.org/ as of today :)
22:54 moritz_ *obsolete
22:54 hcchien joined #perl6
22:54 pmichaud we've been planning to obsolete dev.perl.org/perl6 anyway
22:54 mst moritz_: it's up to you guys. I'd love that too.
22:54 pmichaud maybe we can find some people with tuits to throw at that issue
22:54 pmichaud we can certainly blog about the intent and maybe attract some folks
22:54 japhb mst: VERY NICE
22:54 mst ranguard++ # leo lapworth, who did most of the work
22:55 mst I just shouted a lot about it being possible to send patches
22:55 mst anyway
22:55 moritz_ is webmaster@perl.org still the best way to submit such patches?
22:55 mst http://lists.scsys.co.uk/ has the perl-org-patches list, as I blogged.
22:56 mst I'll get the various sites updated to indicate it
22:56 pmichaud afaik I still have commit privs to the dev.perl.org/perl6
22:56 mst well, if you do, just use 'em
22:56 masak the summary of the summary is: "The divide (between the communities) is real, and it sucks. There's no magic formula to make it right. But we can start by re-framing the Perl 6 image to be less offensive to Perl 5 people."
22:56 mst I'm only really asking people to use the list in order to make the list gain momentum
22:57 masak all in all, I'm very glad that discussion happened.
22:57 moritz_ masak++ and mst++
22:57 japhb mst++ masak++ # yes, indeed, thank you both
22:57 mst if we can get it so that the perl5 perception of the perl6 position is "closely related competitor" rather than "successor by fiat"
22:58 masak nod.
22:58 mst I think we can get a lot more co-operation going
22:58 masak everybody wins.
22:58 mst the eventual ideal aim here is for perl5 and perl6 to compete on shiny tech, not on "we're the next version" vs. "you're a research project"
22:58 mst I like competing on shiny tech. it's way more fun than politics.
22:59 masak as _why said, "when you don't create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than ability. your tastes only narrow & exclude people. so create."
23:03 pmichaud I agree on shiny tech.  I also like that we share shiny tech ideas with each other.
23:08 pmichaud all of the above said, and I highly agree with it, I think there are likely some Perl 6 goals that could ultimately prove to be somewhat divisive.  I wonder if we could find ways to minimize that?
23:09 masak pmichaud: do you have a concrete example?
23:09 pmichaud well, Perl 6 is not only a rewrite of the language, it's also a rewrite of the community
23:10 pmichaud there are some aspects of Perl culture that Perl 6 is in some ways aiming to reject, I think
23:10 pmichaud I don't have much more of a concrete answer than that at the moment
23:10 pmichaud and I don't want it to sound like "Perl 5 people are bad, we reject them", because that's not the intent
23:10 pmichaud (nor do I believe it)
23:12 Guest20380 joined #perl6
23:12 pmichaud but a review of some of the comments regarding Camelia and the perl6.org site somewhat hints at the sort of thing I'm thinking of
23:12 mst over the past few years, we already rewrote the community.
23:12 Guest20380 iae galera
23:13 mst or at least a large chunk of it.
23:13 mst freenode#perl is livable in, magnet is calming down, magnet #perl -will- behave themselves eventually. the tolerance for assholes nailing newbies to the wall has gone down a hell of a lot.
23:14 mst the shift on CPAN has moved to being about teams of developers co-operating to make something beautiful and of inclusive projects rather than the "lone mad hacker with his own toolkit" era
23:14 Guest20380 tem ninguem do Basil aki naum
23:14 pmichaud i.e., there's possibly a bit of a culture clash inherent in the Perl (5 and 6) community.  That's not inherently a problem, I'm simply wondering if we can recognize when that happens and find ways to mitigate any negative impacts and enhance any positive ones
23:14 Guest20380 ��
23:14 pmichaud I do agree that much of Perl culture has changed already
23:14 pmichaud (in very positive ways)
23:14 Guest20380 ��
23:14 Guest20380 q merda
23:15 was kicked by pmichaud: pmichaud
23:15 masak pmichaud: thanks.
23:15 Guest20380 joined #perl6
23:15 Guest20380 soh eu do Brasil aki
23:15 Guest20380 ?
23:15 * mst hugs Guest20380
23:15 masak eh.
23:15 was kicked by pmichaud: pmichaud
23:15 masak mst: :)
23:16 mst pmichaud: 'rewrite' is an awful term as well
23:16 pmichaud mst: I agree; I was quoting Larry and history
23:16 mst 'reenvisioning' is my first guess at a better term
23:16 mst yes
23:16 pmichaud it was an okay term at the time; we need a better phrase
23:17 mst I know you were. I'm trying to work out how we find terms that at next years' conference season you and I can both be quoting
23:17 mst without them needing to follow one of us with a bucket to mop up the sarcasm dripping everywhere ;)
23:17 pmichaud I don't mind if people follow me with buckets :)
23:17 zamolxes joined #perl6
23:18 masak perhaps not sarcasm buckets, though.
23:18 sjohnson heh
23:18 pmichaud I think we just continue the discussion.  Perhaps we start some joint presentations or lightning talks on the subject
23:19 pmichaud masak is an excellent spokesperson, and I'd be eager to see where he's going with some of this as well
23:19 masak pmichaud: thanks for the confidence.
23:19 masak I do like to frame things. :)
23:20 pmichaud as do I.  And I'm all in favor of having everyone reframe our discussions to move out of (perceived or actual) entrenched myths that are creating conflict
23:21 pmichaud especially things that are viewed as hurtful to people who really like and want to continue with p5
23:21 masak exactly.
23:21 masak mst++ again.
23:23 pmichaud anyway, concrete tasks we can address now will be to adjust the perl6-related websites to better reflect the relationship between p5 and p6
23:23 pmichaud suggestions and patches are (as always) welcomed :)
23:23 pmichaud as we approach the Rakudo Star release, we can also use that to frame the discussion
23:23 pmichaud (this actually happens sooner rather than later)
23:24 chromatic joined #perl6
23:24 chromatic Two serious questions for discussion, probably not immediate resolution.
23:24 chromatic 1) What does Larry say?
23:24 chromatic 2) What's the long-term Perl 5 development plan?
23:24 pmichaud excellent questions.
23:25 pmichaud in my experience, Larry tends to answer on his own time.  :)
23:25 wknight8111 joined #perl6
23:25 pmichaud that's fine, in some sense the "leader" doesn't want to foreclose options prematurely
23:25 mst and I think (2) is the wrong question to be asking, unless what you want is a huge argument over who has the better/more realistic plan
23:26 chromatic Let me be more specific about #2 then, because I don't want that.
23:26 chromatic Is Perl 5 stable, in the sense that it continues to get maintenance and bug fixes, but no new syntactic features?
23:26 chromatic Will it continue to backport features from Perl 6?
23:26 mst try again, this time without the word 'backport'.
23:27 chromatic Can it, will it, should it get new features that Perl 6 doesn't have, or doesn't support in the same way?
23:27 chromatic Will it continue to port features from Perl 6?
23:27 mst I would expect we'll continue to keep stealing from you and from everybody else, yes. doing anything else would be silly.
23:28 pmichaud "port features" == "take ideas"
23:28 mst and there's about you guys and lisp that I really enjoy stealing things from :)
23:28 * masak makes a mental note of the word 'backport' as being incendiary
23:28 pmichaud Perl has a long tradition of stealing ideas from many sources :)
23:28 pmichaud and then making them much better than the original
23:28 mst right, see also PerlX::MethodCallWithBlock for a very first sketch at stealing a ruby feature :)
23:28 chromatic The word "backport" appears in a lot of messages on p5p.  I mean no offense; I merely grabbed what appears to be a pervasive term of art from existing discussions.
23:29 chromatic I suppose the real question is:
23:29 mst chromatic: I took none. but we need to reframe the conversation.
23:29 pmichaud +1
23:29 mst chromatic: might as well start with me and thee.
23:29 chromatic 2a) Is there a concrete plan for Perl 5 to evolve in a different direction from Perl 6?
23:29 masak chromatic: the discussion so far today has been about this re-framing.
23:29 pmichaud speaking as a bit of an outsider,  here's my opinion
23:29 pmichaud it's a little premature to say "concrete plan"
23:30 pmichaud Perl 5 has also been going through some growing pains of late, and I think it needs a bit more time to "gestate"
23:31 pmichaud it's already heading in that direction.
23:31 pmichaud (this becomes speculation)
23:31 pmichaud in some ways, people have been able to blame Perl 6 for lack of P5 progress.  legitimate or no, it's been an energy drain for p5 folks
23:32 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl the ng branch now passes 8 spectest files, or 137 individual tests
23:32 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
23:32 pmichaud in some ways, we've not well identified this notion of p5 and p6 being a family of languages as opposed to p6 replacing p5
23:32 masak +1
23:33 mst the CPAN community already stopped waiting for perl6; and while it's outside of core, Moose does some things differently and is in a similar space to the perl6 OO system in some respects
23:33 pmichaud if we get the "dual language" meme going (I don't have a better term atm), then a real conversation about "what is the future of p5" can take place
23:33 pmichaud indeed, that conversation has already started, but I don't feel we're at a point for concrete plans yet.
23:33 mst I -definitely- regard Moose and p6meta as "two of the same family"
23:33 pmichaud (outsiders view)
23:33 chromatic There's part of my concern about this framing: what mst calls "Perl 5" is different than from what other people call "Perl 5".
23:33 masak pmichaud: 'dual lineage'?
23:34 chromatic I'm personally comfortable with considering Perl 5 + CPAN as "Perl 5", but not everyone understands it that way.
23:34 pmichaud masak:  perhaps.
23:34 mst chromatic: that's a marketing problem for perl5 to fix.
23:34 mst I think.
23:34 chromatic Precisely.
23:34 pmichaud also a bit more than marketing, I suspect, but also a process problem
23:34 mst there's work going on over both.
23:34 Maddingue people outside the community only know "Perl"
23:34 pmichaud in some ways perl 5 history and processes have not been conducive to growth vis-a-vis cpan
23:35 pmichaud the long periods of times between releases may be a symptom of that
23:35 pmichaud (and this is also being worked on as well)
23:35 mst chromatic: here's the thing: I don't think we want to start digging into the deficiencies of current perl5 process here
23:35 chromatic I agree; this is the wrong place to bring up that morass.
23:36 mst so I don't really understand why you brought it up at all
23:36 mst I don't think it -can- be part of this discussion.
23:36 pmichaud even if we don't bring it up, others might
23:36 pmichaud we might want a good answer
23:36 mst my answer is going to be "that's not the bloody point!"
23:37 chromatic I suspect that might not satisfy some people.
23:37 mst I suspect that if we let it start, it will skip straight to argument.
23:37 pmichaud I agree it's not the point -- the question is how to frame an answer that helps the inquirer see the question from our collective perspective
23:37 chromatic That's because there are very real questions in the minds of some people.
23:37 mst I'd rather leave "some people" unsatisfied than ignite a flame war that makes things worse
23:37 mst yes. there are "very real questions" in the minds of "some people" on both sides.
23:37 chromatic Let me try a different question then.
23:38 mst -that- is why I don't want to touch it with a bargepole.
23:38 pmichaud it's the same sort of question I get when people ask "when will Perl 6 be finished", to which my response is "huh?  What does 'finished' mean?"
23:38 diakopter I believe these issues will be better understood once perl6<->perl 'integration/interop' is better understood.
23:38 chromatic 2b) *How* will Perl 5 have friendly competition with Perl 6 on shiny tech?
23:39 diakopter I believe this because it's my (strong) suspicion that a perl6 that implements the spec will need to link/embed perl
23:39 mst libraries. syntax approaches. object model.
23:39 chromatic In core or not?
23:40 Juerd masak: pong
23:40 masak Juerd: thanks -- my problems went away in the meantime. :)
23:40 Juerd Neat
23:40 masak Juerd: might have new ones tomorrow, though. :)
23:40 mst I don't believe that's relevant. perl6 is designed to allow libraries to change -everything-.
23:40 mst perl5 is my VM; CPAN is my language
23:41 chromatic Sure, but we're not marketing to mst.
23:41 chromatic I am Jane Average Programmer.  I've heard of Perl 5 and I've heard of Perl 6.
23:41 chromatic Which do I use for what purpose?
23:42 Juerd Jane will probably use 6 because 6 > 5.
23:42 masak and what do (balanced) people in the respective communities tell me about the two languages?
23:42 mst but the entire point of friendly competition is for us both to be able to argue 'us', isn't it?
23:42 pmichaud actually, Jane might end up using Python.
23:42 diakopter chromatic: JAP will use whatever JAP's boss/coworkers put in front of her.
23:42 Maddingue Perl 5 can do anyhting. Perl 6 will.
23:42 Juerd masak: What people say will only matter if they're asked, or if they somehow reach out.
23:42 chromatic Python 2 or Python 3?
23:43 * moritz_ finds the current debate a bit unbalanced
23:43 mst for the past some number of years the perception of perl6 as an unreleased successor that makes new development on perl5 pointless has resulted in Jane using python. or ruby. or whatever.
23:43 moritz_ one mst, many Perl 6 advocates
23:43 chromatic Who says I'm advocating Perl 6 in this debate?
23:43 mst among other reasons and other problems; hyperbole on my part, sorry.
23:44 moritz_ ... and one chromatic ;-)
23:44 masak Juerd: not arguing with that.
23:44 moritz_ s/advocates/fans/ maybe
23:44 mst which is fine. chromatic and I both have you outnumbered :)
23:44 moritz_ :-)
23:45 moritz_ ok, I'm thinking about clarifying the relation between Perl 5 and Perl 6 on perl6.org
23:45 moritz_ what do you guys think where it should go?
23:46 mst but playing the "what's your long term plan? how -will- you compete?" game is ... wrong. the enlightened perl stack has already gained us a fair few converts, and a fair few reconverts.
23:46 masak moritz_: well, it currentlu says 'next major version' next to the spokesbug.
23:46 moritz_ (and gals, of course)
23:46 masak moritz_: that needs to change.
23:46 mst maybe we're not competing on your terms; that's fine. we don't expect you to compete on ours.
23:46 mst that would be no fun :)
23:46 chromatic It's not about competing.
23:47 mst then I'm still not sure how the future plans of each language affects the reframing of the relationship
23:47 masak yuck, someone changed the yellow color of the yellow boxes on perl6.org :(
23:47 chromatic Six is a bigger number than five.
23:47 chromatic You need some clever marketing to work around that, if you want to change the obvious perceptions.
23:48 diakopter pugs: say('perl6' > 'perl')
23:48 p6eval pugs: ␤
23:48 mst yes. that's going to be an absolute bastard.
23:48 masak pugs++
23:48 chromatic Thus:
23:48 masak pugs has already reframed :)
23:48 chromatic 2c1) Does Perl 5 have a future?
23:48 moritz_ masak: feel free to play with colors of perl6.org; I'm not all that happy with them
23:48 Maddingue chromatic: yes
23:48 mst chromatic: yes.
23:48 masak moritz_: I might.
23:48 chromatic 2c2) What's the relationship of Perl 5's future to the relationship of Perl 6's future?
23:49 chromatic I'm not asking these questions for me.  I'm brainstorming what Jane Average Programmer might want to know.
23:49 mst 2c2: "much less hostile than currently if we pull this off"
23:49 masak moritz_: the green and yellow border colors are the most wrong right now. the red one's fine.
23:49 pmurias joined #perl6
23:49 * diakopter copies/pastes: these issues will be better understood once perl6<->perl 'integration/interop' is better understood.
23:49 diakopter (perl6 depending on perl5)
23:49 mst diakopter: yes, we heard you, but that's so much not the point, mate
23:50 mst pushing it back behind a technical deadline isn't a good plan
23:50 gbacon joined #perl6
23:50 pmichaud diakopter: I agree with mst  - I think that's not really the answer
23:50 pmichaud saying that we have interop really doesn't answer the question someone is likely to ask about p5's or p6's future
23:50 masak this is a social issue.
23:50 mst masak and I are planning to continue the discussion on how our communities currently see each other and how we would like them to see each other
23:51 mst that's the first step
23:51 chromatic Oh, then I misunderstood the point.
23:51 diakopter but if perl6 depends on (links/embeds) perl5, then they're usable from each other, and there's no issue here, because the choice to use one is the choice to use the other.
23:51 mst chromatic makes a lot of good points about things we'll need to know in order to take the second step: present that new and better view to the wider world
23:51 masak nod.
23:51 chromatic I thought you were on the second step already.  My mistake.
23:51 pmichaud chromatic: not quite yet -- we're still trying to frame a few things, I think
23:52 masak chromatic: earlier today, we were on the zeroth step, or worse. :)
23:52 chromatic Then feel free to take a continuation and get back to this later.
23:52 mst chromatic: we'd started discussing the -mechanics- of step two in terms of what needs to be updated where
23:52 diakopter why must there be a distinction?  Make Perl 6 a Perl 5 extension, and vice versa.  End of discussion.  No mutual exclusivity.
23:52 masak chromatic: we don't have continuations, we have to emulate them with closures. :/
23:52 pmichaud diakopter: because we're not sure how to technically achieve that yet.
23:53 pmichaud diakopter: that is and remains a goal for us, yes.  But a Perl 6 will exist before it's able to have that level of integration with Perl 5.
23:53 mst diakopter: the point of this conversation is to deal with the distinction between communities and between attitudes and between worlds and between perceptions
23:53 Maddingue diakopter: you'll have to make sure that the new /usr/bin/perl will execute flawlesslyall the existing programs then
23:53 chromatic I was going to tell mst to hit Ctrl-Z and then come back to that shell later, but I haven't figured out a polite way to taunt him yet.
23:53 masak diakopter: there's a distinction because there are two distinct communities, with widely different world views.
23:54 pmichaud I have to leave shortly -- here are my takeaways
23:54 cognominal it is funny to contrast perl.org and perl6.org colorwise :)
23:54 masak cognominal: *lol*
23:54 masak cognominal: not fair! they upgraded today! :)
23:54 pmichaud 1.  p6 folks try to update perl6 descriptions to frame it as a companion to perl 5 and not a successor
23:55 pmichaud 2.  masak and mst continue to hold the conversation.  I'm more than willing to participate in that conversation if I can be helpful to it.
23:55 masak you most definitely can.
23:55 mst chromatic, however, probably shouldn't to begin with.
23:56 mst too much bad blood with some of the people I have to convince.
23:56 masak but he has a continuation for later.
23:56 mst absolutely; and when we get there we invoke that, because the results will be important
23:56 pmichaud 3.  especially as Rakudo Star progresses, look for ways to help position the information about it to continue to promote/support p5
23:56 chromatic I have no desire to continue any bad blood with anyone.
23:56 pmichaud (which has really always been my intent)
23:56 pmurias pmichaud: perl5 interop is not hard, i implemented one  over christmas for mildew (and mildew is much less mature then rakudo)
23:57 pmichaud pmurias: mildew doesn't have some of rakudo's current baggage.
23:57 mst chromatic: I know you don't. but I hope you understand how what I'm asking of you will make this easier.
23:58 pmichaud pmurias: I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it will take a bit of work to achieve the level of interop that would be needed to bring about the "seamless community" that diakopter envisions.
23:58 pmichaud just figuring out CPAN in a Perl 6 context is its own descent into hell :)
23:58 chromatic Sure, I'm comfortable sitting out on this one unless I see important questions getting overlooked.
23:59 mst so. masak and I'll get things rolling, and we have plans for how to engage a bunch more people in constructive discussion
23:59 * masak is excited
23:59 mst chromatic: sure. but come yell at me/masak so we can try and resolve any omissions first if we think that'd be better?

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