| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
|
pmichaud |
btw, I think that the new perl.org is awesome. |
| 00:00 |
|
chromatic |
Will do. |
| 00:01 |
|
mst |
thank you. |
| 00:01 |
|
mst |
chromatic++ |
| 00:01 |
|
mst |
chromatic++ # and a second one in advance for when we invoke that continuation |
| 00:06 |
|
diakopter |
Maddingue: but what I'm saying is that /usr/bin/perl is perl5, always |
| 00:06 |
|
Juerd |
Who did the new perl.org? I love it. |
| 00:07 |
|
chromatic |
I think it was Leo L. |
| 00:08 |
|
mst |
yep |
| 00:08 |
|
mst |
ranguard++ # Leo Lapworth |
| 00:08 |
|
Infinoid |
masak: ping |
| 00:08 |
|
phenny |
Infinoid: 01 Nov 19:48Z <pmichaud> tell Infinoid could you add the rakudo/ng branch commits to dalek? url is http://github.com/feeds/rakudo/commits/rakudo/ng |
| 00:08 |
|
phenny |
Infinoid: 01 Nov 19:49Z <pmichaud> tell Infinoid I think it only needs reporting to #perl6 |
| 00:09 |
|
masak |
Infinoid: pong. |
| 00:09 |
|
diakopter |
Infinoid: yay I broke dalek (again) |
| 00:09 |
|
Infinoid |
diakopter: great, so when I break it (in a few minutes), I can blame it all on you. :) |
| 00:09 |
|
Infinoid |
masak: Is there a new URL for november? I finally pulled your dalek plugin into the dalek-plugins repo, but the plugin is getting a 404 |
| 00:10 |
|
masak |
Infinoid: hm. |
| 00:10 |
|
masak |
Infinoid: it's still github.com/viklund/november |
| 00:10 |
|
mst |
right. bounce. |
| 00:10 |
|
|
mst left #perl6 |
| 00:11 |
|
Infinoid |
masak: ok, plugin had http://github.com/viklund/november-wiki. I will update it |
| 00:11 |
|
Infinoid |
(No, I hadn't planned to wait until november to apply the november patch, that's just how the randomness worked out.) |
| 00:11 |
|
masak |
oops. sorry about that. |
| 00:11 |
|
|
kidd joined #perl6 |
| 00:12 |
|
Infinoid |
masak: Should that go only to #perl6, or #parrot too? |
| 00:13 |
|
diakopter |
masak: I think that's the wrong perspective ("widely different world views")... where the rubber meets the road, what are the substantive, tangible differences? |
| 00:14 |
|
diakopter |
s/the wrong/an incorrect/ |
| 00:14 |
|
chromatic |
I can only think of one, and it's philosophical. |
| 00:16 |
|
masak |
Infinoid: #perl6 is enough, but #november-wiki is more important to me. |
| 00:16 |
|
chromatic |
Perl 5 adopted and spread Unix and Unix cultural inconsistencies to make the language more palatable to existing Unix users. |
| 00:17 |
|
masak |
diakopter: I can assure you I felt some tangible differences earlier this week. |
| 00:18 |
|
chromatic |
That might be a better way to phrase a similar idea though. Perl 5 has syntax compatibility with Perls 1 through 4. Perl 6 intends to provide the same Perlish nature with different syntax. |
| 00:18 |
|
Infinoid |
masak: can do. thanks |
| 00:18 |
|
masak |
Infinoid: thank _you_. |
| 00:18 |
|
masak |
chromatic: and different semantics. |
| 00:18 |
|
masak |
it's not just a surface change. |
| 00:19 |
|
chromatic |
Depends how deep you want to get into world views. |
| 00:19 |
|
masak |
one of the things I was asked on #perl was "can I still do <simple hello-world one-liner>?" |
| 00:19 |
|
masak |
I explained the syntactical differences, and got back a "so, no." |
| 00:19 |
|
masak |
that neatly summarizes my stay there. :) |
| 00:20 |
|
chromatic |
Baffling. |
| 00:20 |
|
diakopter |
I'm reluctant to let #perl (magnet or freenode or oftc or efnet or wtf other network) define the Perl 5 community |
| 00:21 |
|
masak |
oh, sure. |
| 00:21 |
|
masak |
I don't think for a moment they're some sort of average Perl 5 community member. |
| 00:21 |
|
chromatic |
Hence my concern for stage 2. |
| 00:22 |
|
pmichaud |
they may not be average, but they're surely vocal/visible :) |
| 00:22 |
|
masak |
yes, that's what distinguishes them. |
| 00:23 |
|
chromatic |
Maybe. Maybe we overestimate how vocal and visible most of us are to the wide world of Perl programmers. |
| 00:23 |
|
masak |
also, they type much faster than people on #perl6, because, as s1n++ pointed out "they don't have to think". :) |
| 00:23 |
|
pmichaud |
chromatic: ...you're advocating the DarkIRC? ;-) |
| 00:24 |
|
pmichaud |
"we don't know what people outside of our bubble think..." :) :) |
| 00:24 |
|
chromatic |
More like the Dark Mongers. |
| 00:24 |
|
pmichaud |
there ya go -- I couldnt' come up with a good term for it |
| 00:24 |
|
chromatic |
I would have called it DarkPM, but I don't know if you can grow a goatee. |
| 00:24 |
|
PerlJam |
greetings again. |
| 00:24 |
|
PerlJam |
what did I miss? |
| 00:24 |
|
* diakopter |
had lunch today with TimToady and 6 sysadmins/programmers who use Perl daily/hourly/minutely, and most had barely heard of Perl 6 |
| 00:25 |
|
pmichaud |
I can probably grow a goatee. I certainly had (a fake) one in a stage role at one time :) |
| 00:26 |
|
|
dalek joined #perl6 |
| 00:27 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: now I'm really scared. :) |
| 00:29 |
|
|
envi^home joined #perl6 |
| 00:29 |
|
pmichaud |
maybe we're not vocal/visible to the wide world of Perl programmers (likely not), but I think we are visible to people who are setting Perl's overall directions (both 5 and 6) |
| 00:30 |
|
|
dalek joined #perl6 |
| 00:31 |
|
pmichaud |
(and yes, we are also the people setting those directions) |
| 00:33 |
|
masak |
hence, we are visible to ourselves. *phew*. :) |
| 00:33 |
|
* cognominal |
fail to understand the <MARKED(...)> rules |
| 00:33 |
|
|
orafu joined #perl6 |
| 00:35 |
|
cognominal |
ho, I see a method in HLL-s0.pir. |
| 00:36 |
|
|
krakan joined #perl6 |
| 00:39 |
|
* PerlJam |
tends to think that he is fairly invisible to the perl-at-large-community except in the few interactions on IRC and such |
| 00:42 |
|
pmichaud |
cognominal: "MARKER" sets a marker at the current position |
| 00:42 |
|
pmichaud |
"MARKED" asks if the current position has the requested marker set |
| 00:44 |
|
cognominal |
thx, that is more or less what I gathered from a cursory (pun intended) reading of HLL-s0.pir |
| 01:02 |
|
dukeleto |
diakopter: most perl-using sysadmins i meet don't konw about perl 6 |
| 01:03 |
|
dukeleto |
diakopter: or say something like "i heard about it 5 years ago and then never heard anything again" |
| 01:06 |
|
masak |
in a way, that's good news. |
| 01:11 |
|
|
frew_ joined #perl6 |
| 01:15 |
|
dukeleto |
masak: yes, it is. |
| 01:15 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: ping. |
| 01:16 |
|
dukeleto |
i had the pleasure of explaining to someone last night what is going on with NQP-rx. they looked a bit disturbed |
| 01:16 |
|
dukeleto |
to someone that had not kept up with perl 6 in a few years |
| 01:16 |
|
japhb |
What did you tell them? |
| 01:16 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: that we will have flying cars soon ;) |
| 01:16 |
|
masak |
why did they look disturbed? |
| 01:16 |
|
masak |
I mean, I thought everyone knew about Perl 6 and the flying cars. |
| 01:17 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: just explained the reasoning for NQP and how it recently got a bunch of new features |
| 01:17 |
|
japhb |
ah |
| 01:17 |
|
dukeleto |
masak: i think the disturbedness was from not realizing how much has changed |
| 01:17 |
|
masak |
can someone help me see what I'm doing wrong here? note the indenting of the last M. http://gist.github.com/233491 |
| 01:17 |
|
dukeleto |
normal people seem to look at me like I have 3 eyes when I explain what NQP is to them for the first time |
| 01:18 |
|
masak |
dukeleto: I think most people are in that situation. Perl 6 is a black box. |
| 01:18 |
|
* japhb |
has been spending a lot of time keeping up with improvements to NQP-rx ... and pushing for even more. ;-) |
| 01:18 |
|
dukeleto |
even if they are perl people |
| 01:18 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: please, keep pushing. the more you do, the less I have to ;) |
| 01:18 |
|
japhb |
heh |
| 01:18 |
|
japhb |
http://wiki.github.com/perl6/n[…]/plumage-requests , It's What's For Dinner. |
| 01:19 |
|
dukeleto |
i just can't believe that i don't work on plumage for like a week, and now i am totally bewildered with all that is going on |
| 01:19 |
|
japhb |
(Anything in the top section that has been marked done, but not moved to the bottom section -- is stuff I am still converting Plumage to use.) |
| 01:19 |
|
japhb |
heh |
| 01:19 |
|
japhb |
I am no longer sick. |
| 01:19 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: wow, i noticed! ;) japhb++ |
| 01:20 |
|
japhb |
(He says, crossing his fingers and knocking on wood) |
| 01:20 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: glad to have you back. now please clone yourself |
| 01:20 |
|
|
Exodist joined #perl6 |
| 01:21 |
|
masak |
I think I want to make more people get disturbed in that sense. |
| 01:21 |
|
masak |
not because I like seeing them disturbed, of course, but because that's often what's needed to get excited. |
| 01:23 |
|
japhb |
"shake them up a bit" |
| 01:25 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: i totally agree |
| 01:25 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: which is why i enjoy disturbing people by explaining NQP to them ;) |
| 01:25 |
|
japhb |
:-) |
| 01:25 |
|
chromatic |
I like Rock, Paper, Scissors, Spock, Lizard MMD for that. |
| 01:25 |
|
arnsholt |
Just because you guys are talking about it, what -is- the purpose of NQP? |
| 01:25 |
|
arnsholt |
(I think I know, but now I'm not sure any more =) |
| 01:26 |
|
dukeleto |
arnsholt: it is a very easy to parse, fast-to-run subset of Perl 6 |
| 01:26 |
|
japhb |
arnsholt, what dukeleto said ... and yet, powerful enough to write other languages in (cleanly) |
| 01:26 |
|
|
nihiliad joined #perl6 |
| 01:26 |
|
dukeleto |
arnsholt: it is a bootstrap language for Rakudo to be written in, and it is used in Parrot core as well, for our parsing engine (Parrot Compiler Toolkit) |
| 01:26 |
|
masak |
perl6: class M { has M @.ms is rw; method s($i=0) { $i ~ "[{ map { "{$_.s($i + 1)}" }, self.ms }]" } }; my $m = M.new; my $m2 = M.new; $m2.ms = M.new; $m.ms = M.new, $m2, M.new; say $m.s; |
| 01:26 |
|
arnsholt |
Yeah. Essentially for bootstrapping Perl 6, no? |
| 01:27 |
|
dukeleto |
arnsholt: but from what I learn, PCT is going to be replaced by NQP-rx |
| 01:27 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: ( no output ) |
| 01:27 |
|
p6eval |
..elf 29064: Parse error in: /tmp/RTUHO94kKKpanic at line 1 column 45 (pos 45): Missing right braceWHERE: @.ms is rw; method s($i=0) { $i ~ "[{ map { "{$_.s($i + 1)}WHERE: /\<-- HERE STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic' STD_red/std.rb:255:in `_block_rest' |
| 01:27 |
|
p6eval |
..STD_red/std… |
| 01:27 |
|
p6eval |
..pugs: *** Missing required parameters: $_ at /tmp/XZcIo7EzaR line 1, column 61-78 |
| 01:27 |
|
arnsholt |
Cool |
| 01:27 |
|
dukeleto |
arnsholt: yes. |
| 01:27 |
|
PerlJam |
dukeleto: "is being replaced by" :) |
| 01:27 |
|
arnsholt |
There's a Not Quite Perl used for bootstrapping Perl 5 too, no? |
| 01:27 |
|
dukeleto |
PerlJam: is there a parrot branch that uses nqp-rx yet? not to my knowledge |
| 01:28 |
|
dukeleto |
arnsholt: yeah, it is called XS ::ducks:: |
| 01:28 |
|
japhb |
dukeleto: nqp-rx is in Parrot core. |
| 01:28 |
|
japhb |
(as of today) |
| 01:28 |
|
arnsholt |
dukeleto: Nice one ^^ |
| 01:28 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: damn! i go and do work for my $job for ONE DAY and you guys sneak it in behind my back |
| 01:28 |
|
japhb |
arnsholt, NQP is also used to implement Plumage |
| 01:28 |
|
japhb |
heh |
| 01:29 |
|
dukeleto |
NQP is probably going to be the new language to write HLL's in |
| 01:29 |
|
dukeleto |
that is what I am going to do, anyway |
| 01:29 |
|
japhb |
s/probably/ |
| 01:29 |
|
dukeleto |
japhb: it won't be *necessary* but it will definitely be sufficient :) |
| 01:30 |
|
japhb |
quite |
| 01:30 |
|
dukeleto |
some people still write HLL's in PIR or even C++ (winxed). it takes all kinds to make the world go round |
| 01:30 |
|
masak |
phenny: tell pmichaud that I don't understand why I get 0[1[] 2[3[]] 4[]] here and not 0[1[] 1[2[]] 1[]]. http://gist.github.com/233491 -- is it a lexicals bug? binding bug? |
| 01:30 |
|
phenny |
masak: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around. |
| 01:36 |
|
|
meppl joined #perl6 |
| 01:47 |
|
* s1n |
has a goatee, wonders where the "good s1n" is... |
| 01:47 |
|
s1n |
sorry, was in the scroll back |
| 01:47 |
|
masak |
s1n: :) |
| 01:48 |
|
masak |
s1n: we'll let you know if we find the "good s1n" :P |
| 01:51 |
|
s1n |
heh, i'll kill him if i find him first >:) |
| 01:51 |
|
masak |
oops. |
| 01:53 |
|
|
Wolfman2000 joined #perl6 |
| 01:57 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
evening |
| 01:58 |
|
dalek |
book: af7253e | chromatic++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod: |
| 01:58 |
|
dalek |
book: Edited classes and objects chapter: |
| 01:58 |
|
dalek |
book: * modest prose editing |
| 01:58 |
|
dalek |
book: * some formatting cleanup |
| 01:58 |
|
dalek |
book: * added a few suggestions for further improvement |
| 01:58 |
|
dalek |
book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]44c2dd1808e92924a |
| 02:04 |
|
|
ihrd1 joined #perl6 |
| 02:09 |
|
|
alester joined #perl6 |
| 02:10 |
|
dalek |
book: 424541e | masak++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod: |
| 02:10 |
|
dalek |
book: [OO] added back a lost full stop |
| 02:10 |
|
dalek |
book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/c[…]be2de76599c985ec6 |
| 02:13 |
|
|
eternaleye joined #perl6 |
| 02:15 |
|
|
eternaleye joined #perl6 |
| 02:27 |
|
|
oZ] joined #perl6 |
| 02:42 |
|
|
tideflat joined #perl6 |
| 02:42 |
|
tideflat |
std: say $@ |
| 02:42 |
|
p6eval |
std 29064: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mObsolete use of $@ variable as eval error; in Perl 6 please use $! instead at /tmp/OVR5tdz1hV line 1:------> say $@⏏<EOL>FAILED 00:01 102m |
| 02:43 |
|
|
oZ] left #perl6 |
| 02:43 |
|
tideflat |
std: say 'Hi perl 6' |
| 02:43 |
|
masak |
jnthn: oh! oh! did you see my bug from earlier? |
| 02:43 |
|
p6eval |
std 29064: ok 00:01 100m |
| 02:43 |
|
jnthn |
masak: oh noes...which one? |
| 02:43 |
|
masak |
hi, tideflat! |
| 02:43 |
|
tideflat |
HIi |
| 02:43 |
|
masak |
jnthn: hold on, I'll get it. |
| 02:43 |
|
* jnthn |
grabs something to drink while he reads it.... |
| 02:43 |
|
tideflat |
HI |
| 02:44 |
|
masak |
o/ |
| 02:44 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: evening |
| 02:44 |
|
masak |
jnthn: http://gist.github.com/233491 |
| 02:44 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: howdy. |
| 02:44 |
|
jnthn |
masak: looking |
| 02:44 |
|
|
gfx joined #perl6 |
| 02:45 |
|
jnthn |
oh noes...it has the word "lexicals" in it |
| 02:45 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: I meant to start work on a Web.pm-based pastebin yesterday, but a monumental discussion about the future of the Perl 5 and Perl 6 communities kinda got in my way. |
| 02:45 |
|
* masak |
grins at jnthn |
| 02:45 |
|
masak |
either lexicals or binding. |
| 02:45 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: I got hung up on my pastebin work due to problems with databases and catalyst myself. |
| 02:45 |
|
masak |
that's my guess. |
| 02:46 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
I'm right now trying to take care of that |
| 02:46 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: great. |
| 02:48 |
|
sjohnson |
does catalyst come with a few "use"able modules for basic html stuff? |
| 02:48 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Ouch, my brain. |
| 02:48 |
|
masak |
sorry about that. |
| 02:48 |
|
jnthn |
masak: It's fine, I'll look tomorrow. |
| 02:48 |
|
masak |
goodie. I've phenny'd pmichaud about it, too. |
| 02:48 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Can you add expected output to that gist? |
| 02:49 |
|
masak |
I can. |
| 02:49 |
|
jnthn |
Thanks, that'd help. |
| 02:49 |
|
masak |
if it makes it easier to think about: before I golfed it, the code was doing indentation. |
| 02:49 |
|
masak |
and it did it wrong. |
| 02:50 |
|
jnthn |
ah, ok |
| 02:50 |
|
masak |
the problem only shows up when the recursion is between methods, not subs. |
| 02:52 |
|
jnthn |
That's curious too. |
| 02:52 |
|
jnthn |
OK, I'm going to sleep...I've left the tab open in my browser, so it'll confront me in the morning. :-) |
| 02:52 |
|
masak |
good :) |
| 02:53 |
|
masak |
then either I'll be here before you, or my problem will confront you. :) |
| 02:53 |
|
masak |
win-win :) |
| 02:53 |
|
jnthn |
For you. :-P |
| 02:54 |
|
jnthn |
Well, I'm doing a Rakudo day tomorrow anyways. :-) |
| 02:54 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 02:54 |
|
jnthn |
They always go on until a ridiculous hour anyway, so even if I sleep until midday, it should still be productive. :-) |
| 02:54 |
|
masak |
that's a good reason for me to wake up early. :) |
| 02:54 |
|
jnthn |
lol |
| 02:54 |
|
masak |
'night |
| 02:54 |
|
jnthn |
No, not really. I'll probably start late and finish really late. |
| 02:54 |
|
jnthn |
night! |
| 02:54 |
|
jnthn |
o/ |
| 03:09 |
|
|
seanstickle joined #perl6 |
| 03:15 |
|
|
seanstickle left #perl6 |
| 03:29 |
|
PerlJam |
does "{*} #= foo" work in NQP, and/or are they some special rules to using it? |
| 03:30 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
phenny: tell masak New update on my Pastebin woes. Apparently the query I need to pull off works when there is no data inside the database. Once data is in, it breaks. Does this make sense to you? |
| 03:30 |
|
phenny |
Wolfman2000: I'll pass that on when masak is around. |
| 03:35 |
|
Tene |
Wolfman2000: explain "breaks" |
| 03:36 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
Tene: no data in the database, the query runs fine because it sees no data. data in the database, it can't seem to construct and inflate the resulting object properly without some sort of issue in the way. |
| 03:37 |
|
PerlJam |
huh ... I must've had a tab character or something between C<#=> and my identifier because it works now and all I've done is manipulate the whitespace around between the regex, C<{*}>, C<#=>, and the identifier |
| 03:37 |
|
PerlJam |
Wolfman2000: show the code. |
| 03:38 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
http://scsys.co.uk:8001/36146 <-- test file, but that should keep you happy. |
| 03:41 |
|
PerlJam |
Wolfman2000: perhaps I'm missing something, but your query seems incomplete. |
| 03:41 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
PerlJam: what do you think is missing? |
| 03:41 |
|
PerlJam |
Wolfman2000: don't you need to say something like "select * from blah where ..." ? |
| 03:42 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
PerlJam: ...right, you aren't used to DBIC |
| 03:42 |
|
PerlJam |
indeed I am not |
| 03:42 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
nevermind then. |
| 03:45 |
|
|
hercynium joined #perl6 |
| 03:46 |
|
|
envi^office joined #perl6 |
| 03:46 |
|
PerlJam |
Wolfman2000: Assuming that the query is built for you based on the criteria you've specified, is there a way to output the SQL rather than execute the query? |
| 03:47 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
PerlJam: ...not that I know of. |
| 03:47 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
I'll try messing with this some more in a few minutes. Need a break. |
| 03:59 |
|
diakopter |
chromatic: lol@ Dark Mongers |
| 04:06 |
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carlin |
That was one interesting (and lengthy!) backlog |
| 04:44 |
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| 04:44 |
|
diakopter |
Every time you turn the page, another folio magically appears |
| 05:34 |
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dukeleto |
'ello |
| 05:34 |
|
diakopter |
'i |
| 05:36 |
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| 05:37 |
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diakopter |
... in theory |
| 05:41 |
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|
quietfanatic |
events are like routines that are invoked backwards :| |
| 06:14 |
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quietfanatic |
like comefroms instead of gotos |
| 06:24 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
off to bed...perhaps there is hope yet for my Perl 6 Pastebin. |
| 06:28 |
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| 07:03 |
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pugs_svn |
r29065 | lwall++ | [perl6.org] a first whack at "reframing" |
| 07:10 |
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| 07:19 |
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moritz_ |
good morning |
| 07:25 |
|
mathw |
Morning |
| 07:32 |
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| 07:43 |
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| 07:44 |
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mathw |
Okay, now I'm confused |
| 07:44 |
|
mathw |
I can't find the action method for infix:sym<~~> in NG |
| 07:46 |
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moritz_ |
I don't think there's necessarily an action method for every infix operator |
| 07:48 |
|
moritz_ |
if there's no, it'll probably dispatch to infix:<~~> |
| 07:48 |
|
moritz_ |
(though ~~ does need one, since it's partially syntactic) |
| 07:48 |
|
moritz_ |
src/core/operators.pm |
| 07:48 |
|
moritz_ |
1:our multi infix:<~~>($topic, $matcher) { |
| 08:00 |
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| 08:11 |
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mathw |
ahah |
| 08:11 |
|
mathw |
thanks |
| 08:12 |
|
* mathw |
needs a map of the source tree :) |
| 08:13 |
|
mathw |
aaawwww |
| 08:13 |
|
mathw |
first attempt at 'when' support exploded in a highly unpleasant fashion |
| 08:14 |
|
mathw |
but then, I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing so I guess I shouldn't be all that surprised :) |
| 08:16 |
|
moritz_ |
did you do the exceptions part? |
| 08:18 |
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| 08:22 |
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mathw |
moritz_: No I've been thinking about it and have realised that when is of course more complicated than I thought |
| 08:23 |
|
mathw |
and looking at how trunk rakudo does it is not particularly enlightening |
| 08:23 |
|
mathw |
I think I'm going to have to wait for someone with knowledge to do it, and then learn from that for future things |
| 08:39 |
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mberends |
22:38 <masak> guys, I just had an hour-long privmsg discussion with mst++. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl[…]9-11-12#i_1723011 |
| 10:21 |
|
mberends |
this begin one of the most important 12 hours of backlogs in recent months |
| 10:21 |
|
mberends |
*begins |
| 10:23 |
|
mberends |
mst++ and masak++ for very constructive input regarding the relationship between Per 5 and Perl 6 |
| 10:23 |
|
moritz_ |
indeed |
| 10:23 |
|
mberends |
and (all other participants)++ |
| 10:24 |
|
* mberends |
wishes he had been present as well |
| 10:24 |
|
* moritz_ |
was mostly present, but decided to (mostly) back out in order not to make it any more complicated |
| 10:25 |
|
mberends |
moritz_: understandable, you can get up on your soapbox another time |
| 10:26 |
|
mberends |
pugs: say ('perl6' gt 'perl'); |
| 10:26 |
|
p6eval |
pugs: 1 |
| 10:26 |
|
mberends |
pugs is not entirely innocent ;) |
| 10:27 |
|
mberends |
I'm going to stop describing Perl 6 as the next version of Perl |
| 10:29 |
|
mberends |
I also think, seeing the problems mentioned, that we should seriously consider renaming Perl 6 to something else, for example Camelia |
| 10:30 |
|
|
payload joined #perl6 |
| 10:32 |
|
Su-Shee |
in my everyday lingo I usally say "rakudo perl" |
| 10:32 |
|
Juerd |
mberends: Is it not true then? |
| 10:33 |
|
mberends |
Su-Shee: Rakudo is only one *implementation*, remember the others too. |
| 10:33 |
|
Juerd |
Really, if Perl 6 isn't supposed to supersede Perl 5 (eventually), then the name with a version number makes even less sense. |
| 10:33 |
|
mberends |
Juerd: +1 |
| 10:33 |
|
Su-Shee |
mberends: I know, but interestingly, it sneaked into my wording. somehow, it feels natural. there's perl and there's rakudo perl. |
| 10:34 |
|
Su-Shee |
mberends: like british english and us english. |
| 10:34 |
|
mberends |
haha |
| 10:36 |
|
Juerd |
I wish I could convince myself to just say "Rakudo" when I mean Perl 6. |
| 10:36 |
|
huf |
it's not good enough of a name |
| 10:37 |
|
huf |
it's fine for a compiler, but not for the language |
| 10:37 |
|
huf |
it's too damn long for one |
| 10:37 |
|
Juerd |
Well, it's not the name of the language. But people will use it as if it is, anyway. :) |
| 10:38 |
|
Juerd |
No, "Visual Basic" and "ECMA Script" are too long. |
| 10:38 |
|
Juerd |
Rakudo isn't |
| 10:39 |
|
Su-Shee |
why don't we leave it to the natural evolution of language what "it" eventually will be dubbed? :) |
| 10:39 |
|
huf |
Juerd: it's 3 syllables. that's an eternity. you need something with at most 2, preferably 1 ;) |
| 10:40 |
|
huf |
or is that 'u' silent? |
| 10:40 |
|
Juerd |
Su-Shee: Because there is no such evolution just yet, but the current naming is causing confusion. |
| 10:42 |
|
carlin |
Call it Klingon; we have phasers, blorsts, borgs and nqp-rx is alien technology ... so it fits |
| 10:42 |
|
Su-Shee |
huf: no, slightly muted in japanese. the u isn't spoken very clear. |
| 10:43 |
|
Su-Shee |
carlin: and eigenstates. |
| 10:43 |
|
Juerd |
carlin: Well it wouldn't help to pick *another* already-existing name. |
| 10:44 |
|
carlin |
Google did ;-) |
| 10:44 |
|
Juerd |
Did it help? |
| 10:44 |
|
moritz_ |
notreally |
| 10:45 |
|
Su-Shee |
now that I think of it .. before I already usally said "pugs perl". |
| 10:45 |
|
Su-Shee |
moritz_: if you speak german, what do you call it? |
| 10:45 |
|
moritz_ |
"Perl Sechs" |
| 10:45 |
|
Su-Shee |
hm. ok. |
| 10:46 |
|
moritz_ |
or just "Perl", depending on context :-) |
| 10:46 |
|
moritz_ |
it's perl, after all |
| 10:47 |
|
* Woodi |
opt Perl part stays... |
| 10:48 |
|
Woodi |
maybe it will be good to do Perl5 allow to parse STD ? |
| 10:50 |
|
moritz_ |
phenny: tell masak over the weekend I might find the time to write something about the relation between Perl 5 and Perl 6. Do you think it's a good idea to step forward with this, or rather wait a bit more? |
| 10:50 |
|
phenny |
moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around. |
| 10:53 |
|
* moritz_ |
already has a conjectural title: "A bright future for Perl 5 and Perl 6" |
| 10:53 |
|
Juerd |
It would be the nth writing about Perl 5<->6 |
| 10:53 |
|
huf |
call it perl6i, that way it's not larger than perl5 ;) |
| 10:53 |
|
Juerd |
And someone googling will find all the different ones, that were written over time. |
| 10:55 |
|
moritz_ |
is that an argument for or against anything? |
| 10:56 |
|
Juerd |
Argument for amending historic posts, mostly |
| 10:56 |
|
Juerd |
Which is practically impossible. |
| 10:56 |
|
moritz_ |
well, I can only ammend what I have access to |
| 10:56 |
|
Juerd |
And it's silly all over the place. |
| 10:56 |
|
moritz_ |
and hope that I get a decent google ranking |
| 10:56 |
|
Juerd |
But then, so is the whole issue. |
| 10:56 |
|
moritz_ |
silly, but important |
| 10:57 |
|
Juerd |
Important? Do you think that it's even possible to convince the average programmer that 6 !> 5? |
| 10:57 |
|
moritz_ |
I think it's important to reduce the bad blood between the 5 and 6 communities |
| 10:57 |
|
Juerd |
The values of numbers are too much set in stone to ever change how people will see it. |
| 10:58 |
|
Juerd |
I don't think bad blood that is still there, can be reduced by clarifying the relation. Which is not meant to discourage you - by all means, please do try. |
| 11:00 |
|
moritz_ |
lunch, bbiaw |
| 11:02 |
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| 11:39 |
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| 11:54 |
|
jnthn |
Morning |
| 11:55 |
|
moritz_ |
o jnthn |
| 11:55 |
|
jnthn |
lol...beat masak! |
| 12:02 |
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| 12:53 |
|
* moritz_ |
loves rakudo ng: spectest takes <10 seconds! |
| 12:56 |
|
jnthn |
moritz_: That's only 'cus there's so few tests that pass! :-P |
| 12:57 |
|
* jnthn |
is working hard on getting us some more. |
| 12:57 |
|
* moritz_ |
is curious to see the difference when he comes back on Sunday |
| 12:57 |
|
jnthn |
Ah, you have a nice weekend break now? |
| 12:57 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 12:57 |
|
moritz_ |
t/spec/S03-operators/equality.t is a LHF, only one failing test |
| 12:58 |
|
moritz_ |
jnthn: not yet, but will soon |
| 12:58 |
|
jnthn |
:) |
| 12:58 |
|
jnthn |
Ah yes, that is LHF. Thanks. |
| 12:59 |
|
jnthn |
oh erm |
| 12:59 |
|
jnthn |
ouch. |
| 12:59 |
|
jnthn |
:-/ |
| 13:00 |
|
jnthn |
So apparently my $foo; is meant to default to Object. |
| 13:00 |
|
jnthn |
Which stringifies to Object(). |
| 13:00 |
|
moritz_ |
maybe that test is wrong. |
| 13:00 |
|
jnthn |
Dunno. |
| 13:00 |
|
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| 13:00 |
|
moritz_ |
perl6: say '' eq undef |
| 13:01 |
|
p6eval |
elf 29065: Use of uninitialized value in string eq at (eval 125) line 3.1 |
| 13:01 |
|
p6eval |
..rakudo d04cce: Use of uninitialized value1 |
| 13:01 |
|
p6eval |
..pugs: 1 |
| 13:01 |
|
jnthn |
rakudo: my $x; say $x eq '' |
| 13:01 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Use of uninitialized value1 |
| 13:01 |
|
jnthn |
rakudo: my Object $x; say $x eq '' |
| 13:01 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: 0 |
| 13:02 |
|
jnthn |
:-/ |
| 13:03 |
|
moritz_ |
I think the test is wrong. |
| 13:04 |
|
moritz_ |
at least I don't see how it could work |
| 13:04 |
|
jnthn |
Well, me either, but it's still a tad...surprising... |
| 13:05 |
|
jnthn |
rakudo: my Object $x; $x ~= "monkey"; say $x; |
| 13:05 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: monkey |
| 13:05 |
|
jnthn |
oh, that still does the Right Thing. |
| 13:05 |
|
jnthn |
oh, but not in ng |
| 13:05 |
|
jnthn |
> my Object $x; $x ~= "monkey"; say $x; |
| 13:05 |
|
jnthn |
Object()monkey |
| 13:06 |
|
|
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| 13:06 |
|
colomon |
what, my $foo is equivalent to my Object $foo? |
| 13:06 |
|
moritz_ |
yes |
| 13:06 |
|
moritz_ |
otherwise my $x = 1|2; would autothread |
| 13:07 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: that's an argument that just zooms over my head. |
| 13:08 |
|
colomon |
And why does test 8 pass while test 6 fails? |
| 13:09 |
|
moritz_ |
no idea. |
| 13:09 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah, I wondered that one too... |
| 13:10 |
|
* moritz_ |
think that's a good question for Tene |
| 13:10 |
|
moritz_ |
erm, TimToady |
| 13:10 |
|
moritz_ |
tab fail :-) |
| 13:11 |
|
* jnthn |
is happy to live in a less populated area of the alphabet :-) |
| 13:11 |
|
colomon |
I think I always thought "my $x" was equivalent to "my Any $x"... |
| 13:12 |
|
jnthn |
It can't be |
| 13:12 |
|
jnthn |
Junction !~~ Any |
| 13:12 |
|
|
masak joined #perl6 |
| 13:12 |
|
jnthn |
lolitsmasak! |
| 13:13 |
|
masak |
jnthn: I suspected you'd get here first :P |
| 13:13 |
|
phenny |
masak: 03:30Z <Wolfman2000> tell masak New update on my Pastebin woes. Apparently the query I need to pull off works when there is no data inside the database. Once data is in, it breaks. Does this make sense to you? |
| 13:13 |
|
phenny |
masak: 10:50Z <moritz_> tell masak over the weekend I might find the time to write something about the relation between Perl 5 and Perl 6. Do you think it's a good idea to step forward with this, or rather wait a bit more? |
| 13:13 |
|
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| 13:14 |
|
moritz_ |
woah, masak shows up and phenny fills 1/3 of my irssi window :-) |
| 13:15 |
|
masak |
moritz_: I'm leaning towards waiting a bit more, but to motivate that I feel like I should explain what mst and I have in store, and he advised me to deliver, not make promises, so... you put me in a bit of a spot with that question. :) |
| 13:16 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: no, it's fine if you tell me to wait based on feelings or trust :-) |
| 13:16 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: I suspected something like that, which is why I asked |
| 13:16 |
|
moritz_ |
(which I usually don't before blogging :-) |
| 13:17 |
|
masak |
moritz_: I look forward to whatever you have to write about it. please feel free to write it, and then maybe show it here before publishing, or something. |
| 13:17 |
|
moritz_ |
so I'll focus on the book instead, which also needs work :-) |
| 13:17 |
|
masak |
or that. |
| 13:17 |
|
moritz_ |
I'll see what the weekend brings. |
| 13:17 |
|
masak |
jnthn: did you fix my bug yet? |
| 13:17 |
|
* masak |
backlogs |
| 13:17 |
|
jnthn |
masak: no. |
| 13:18 |
|
jnthn |
masak: I didn't comprehend your bug yet. :-) |
| 13:18 |
|
masak |
oh. |
| 13:18 |
|
masak |
but it was right there, in your browser when you woke up! :P |
| 13:18 |
|
jnthn |
ENEEDMORECOFFEE |
| 13:18 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah, it was! :_) |
| 13:18 |
|
|
szabgab joined #perl6 |
| 13:18 |
|
jnthn |
I looked at it, and then ran to the coffee machine. :-) |
| 13:18 |
|
masak |
lol |
| 13:18 |
|
* moritz_ |
also found it a bit hard to follow :-) |
| 13:19 |
|
masak |
I think by golfing it I actually made it harder to follow. :/ |
| 13:19 |
|
masak |
when it was about indentation, it was immediate that it was wrong. |
| 13:21 |
|
moritz_ |
or if you gave them names (<a b c d e>) and print that along with the number |
| 13:22 |
|
masak |
the structure looks like this: Ma[Mb, Mc[Md], Me] |
| 13:23 |
|
masak |
now, Mb and Me should be printed with the same indentation/number. |
| 13:23 |
|
jnthn |
masak: ugh |
| 13:23 |
|
masak |
but they aren't. |
| 13:23 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Yes, I see the bug now. |
| 13:23 |
|
|
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| 13:23 |
|
* masak |
submits rakudobug |
| 13:23 |
|
jnthn |
I agree it's wrong. |
| 13:26 |
|
takadonet |
morning all |
| 13:27 |
|
|
lithos joined #perl6 |
| 13:27 |
|
masak |
takadonet: \o |
| 13:31 |
|
takadonet |
how are you doing masak? |
| 13:31 |
|
masak |
takadonet: my waking hours are a mess. I have one work day left before vacation starts. my secret project occupies all my attention. |
| 13:32 |
|
masak |
did I say secret project? I meant, um, an entirely boring project. not worth talking about, really. |
| 13:32 |
|
takadonet |
... |
| 13:32 |
|
masak |
takadonet: how are you doing? |
| 13:32 |
|
takadonet |
hehe |
| 13:33 |
|
|
NorwayGeek joined #perl6 |
| 13:34 |
|
takadonet |
masak: Busy as hell at work. Leaves no time for perl6 . Getting ready some biological data to be submitted to genbank. Just cannot wait to go back to writing some Perl 5 and Perl 6 |
| 13:36 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Oooh...you has a secret project? |
| 13:36 |
|
masak |
jnthn: no. and I've already told you about it, but you must have forgotten. :) |
| 13:36 |
|
jnthn |
I think you've told me that you have a secret project. :-) |
| 13:37 |
|
jnthn |
I don't think I know any more than that. ;-) |
| 13:37 |
|
masak |
only one week left before I get to unveil it. |
| 13:37 |
|
masak |
the tension is killing me. :) |
| 13:38 |
|
* jnthn |
thinks it's going to be something strange and loopy |
| 13:38 |
|
masak |
oh yes. |
| 13:38 |
|
jnthn |
Dunno why. Just a feeling I've got |
| 13:38 |
|
jnthn |
;-) |
| 13:38 |
|
* moritz_ |
has a vague idea what it might be, and could be totally wrong |
| 13:38 |
|
takadonet |
suddenly I want to know what it is |
| 13:42 |
|
jnthn |
.oO( collection of 100 obfuscated Perl 6 programs that all print the Austrian National Anthem ) |
| 13:42 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: say $*IN.lines |
| 13:42 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Land der Berge, Land am Strome,Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich!Heimat bist du großer Söhne,Volk, begnadet für das Schöne,vielgerühmtes Österreich,vielgerühmtes Österreich!Heiß umfehdet, wild umstrittenliegst dem Erdteil du inmitten,einem starken Herzen |
| 13:42 |
|
p6eval |
..gleich.… |
| 13:43 |
|
masak |
1 down, 99 to go. |
| 13:43 |
|
moritz_ |
that doesn't really count as obfuscated though, does it? :-) |
| 13:43 |
|
masak |
no, true. |
| 13:43 |
|
masak |
rakudo: say $*IN.lines>>.flip |
| 13:43 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: ,emortS ma dnaL ,egreB red dnaL,emoD red dnaL ,rekcÄ red dnaL!hcierstfnukuz ,remmäH red dnaL,enhöS reßorg ud tsib tamieH,enöhcS sad rüf tedangeb ,kloV,hcierretsÖ setmhüregleiv!hcierretsÖ setmhüregleivnettirtsmu dliw ,tedhefmu ßieH,nettimni ud lietdrE med tsgeil.hcielg nezreH nekrats |
| 13:43 |
|
p6eval |
..menie… |
| 13:44 |
|
moritz_ |
.oO( if you .flip Austrian it looks just like flipped German :-) |
| 13:44 |
|
jnthn |
moritz_: Strange that. |
| 13:44 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 13:44 |
|
jnthn |
I guess it's just 'cus I'm British, but Austrian and German look terribly alike to me even in their non-flipped forms. |
| 13:45 |
|
moritz_ |
it's about as close as American and British English |
| 13:46 |
|
moritz_ |
except that there are less spelling differences (color vs. colour), but more words used differently |
| 13:46 |
|
lithos |
they say, Austrians and Germans are not divided but by their common language ;) |
| 13:46 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 13:47 |
|
jnthn |
Words used differently? That sounds like the path to amusement, depending on the differences. :-) |
| 13:47 |
|
moritz_ |
don't forget the Alps :-) |
| 13:50 |
|
jnthn |
phenny: tell pmichaud oh noes, I think we may have a general parsing issue with %item_assignment precedence level. Both ternary and default_value use <EXPR('i=')>, and both have parsing issues. |
| 13:50 |
|
phenny |
jnthn: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around. |
| 13:51 |
|
moritz_ |
jnthn: nah, it's mostly boring differences. In .de "Schorle" means a mixture of $thing and water, and in .at $thing and lemonade |
| 13:52 |
|
jnthn |
Aww. |
| 13:53 |
|
jnthn |
Not like "pants" in AE/BE then. :-) |
| 13:53 |
|
lithos |
there are significant differences in spoken language, though, which sometimes lead to amusement |
| 13:53 |
|
arnsholt |
jnthn: Try asking about Swiss German O=) |
| 13:53 |
|
moritz_ |
lithos: but I found the differences between spoken Austrian and Bavarian smaller than Bavarian and northern German dialects |
| 13:54 |
|
jnthn |
arnsholt: I'm under the impression that is much more different. :-) |
| 13:54 |
|
moritz_ |
it is, and it's sometimes amusing to listen to them :-) |
| 13:54 |
|
arnsholt |
Yeah. From what I've been told Swiss German is weeeeeeird =D |
| 13:55 |
|
lithos |
moritz_, that's true |
| 13:55 |
|
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oZ] joined #perl6 |
| 14:03 |
|
|
ihrd joined #perl6 |
| 14:04 |
|
|
ihrd left #perl6 |
| 14:05 |
|
PerlJam |
/ <foo>? / making an array in the match object still trips me up every time. For some reason that's a lesson that's hard for me to learn. |
| 14:06 |
|
masak |
PerlJam: I used to get tripped up by that as well. |
| 14:06 |
|
masak |
I've since come to grips with the fact that it's more consistent, for at least two reasons. |
| 14:06 |
|
PerlJam |
I understand and agree with the consistency. But it still trips me up :) |
| 14:06 |
|
masak |
nod. |
| 14:07 |
|
masak |
it will keep doing that for a while after you understand the reason. :) |
| 14:07 |
|
masak |
TimToady++ # 'spunky little sister' |
| 14:08 |
|
* moritz_ |
had to look up 'spunky' |
| 14:08 |
|
masak |
I think it fits. |
| 14:08 |
|
moritz_ |
the closest word I knew was 'spooky' - not quite the same :-) |
| 14:10 |
|
* jnthn |
had to look it up too |
| 14:10 |
|
jnthn |
Cool word |
| 14:10 |
|
PerlJam |
why do I keep seeing tweets that say "I need to write a cranky editorial about the absurdity of Perl 6 having "missed the boat." " ? Is there some meme here that I'm missing? |
| 14:11 |
|
moritz_ |
PerlJam: no, it's just something that spam bots picking up what one of us (Juerd? not sure) wrote once |
| 14:11 |
|
moritz_ |
or was it alester? not sure |
| 14:11 |
|
PerlJam |
I thought I saw chromatic say it :) |
| 14:12 |
|
masak |
it was alester. |
| 14:12 |
|
masak |
I like that bots pick that up. it's a fun tweet. |
| 14:12 |
|
Juerd |
? |
| 14:12 |
|
PerlJam |
well, I wish someone would write that cranky editorial and have the bots pick up the link to it. |
| 14:13 |
|
Juerd |
Is there a bot that tweets irc snippets?! |
| 14:13 |
|
masak |
PerlJam: alested did write that cranky editorial long ago. |
| 14:13 |
|
PerlJam |
Having the bots pickup the link to it is the important part :) |
| 14:13 |
|
masak |
Juerd: no, but some Twitter spambots mimick real tweets, and (I think) each other. |
| 14:13 |
|
Juerd |
Ah |
| 14:14 |
|
masak |
http://perlbuzz.com/2009/08/pe[…]sed-the-boat.html |
| 14:15 |
|
Juerd |
"There is no boat." I like that explanation. |
| 14:15 |
|
Juerd |
It's very concise |
| 14:16 |
|
masak |
I think the warm, fuzzy feeling I get is that, ostensibly, even *spambots* are concerned about the way Perl 6 is perceived. :P |
| 14:16 |
|
masak |
that's when you know your language is taking off. :) |
| 14:17 |
|
carlin |
No, you know your langauge is taking off when someone writes a twitter spambot in it |
| 14:18 |
|
masak |
carlin: maybe someone did, and what we're seeing is the tweeting of self-aware Perl 6 spambots. |
| 14:20 |
|
masak |
it's only natural that bots written in Perl 6 will have the spark, at least a little: http://www.girlgeniusonline.co[…]php?date=20091009 |
| 14:20 |
|
colomon |
"spunky little sister"! \o/ |
| 14:22 |
|
jnthn |
Rakudo ng has when and default blocks back again. |
| 14:23 |
|
jnthn |
To some degree anyway. |
| 14:24 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 14:24 |
|
* jnthn |
glances around for pmichaud |
| 14:24 |
|
masak |
jnthn: in a week, where will the branch be, you think? ready for merge? |
| 14:25 |
|
jnthn |
masak: It's hard to be sure at the momnet. It really depends how quickly we can bring back the setting, and then triage all the fails. |
| 14:26 |
|
jnthn |
Or, all those we decide are merge-blocking, anyway. |
| 14:26 |
|
masak |
right. |
| 14:26 |
|
* PerlJam |
puts on his optimist hat |
| 14:26 |
|
jnthn |
I've just been trying to get Any-num.pm back in, for example. |
| 14:26 |
|
PerlJam |
It'll be ready in a week. |
| 14:26 |
|
masak |
it does sound promising. |
| 14:26 |
|
jnthn |
In doing so, it's pointed out quite a few things that I've been able to fix. |
| 14:27 |
|
jnthn |
But also turned up what I think is an OPP bug. :-/ |
| 14:27 |
|
carlin |
Yay |
| 14:27 |
|
jnthn |
I've no idea how hard that will be to deal with. |
| 14:27 |
|
* carlin |
has built rakud oon vista |
| 14:27 |
|
jnthn |
We also can't parse numbers yet... |
| 14:27 |
|
colomon |
Does ng's new PARROT_REVISION have nqp-rx as part of parrot? |
| 14:28 |
|
jnthn |
I think so. |
| 14:28 |
|
jnthn |
oh, wait, maybe not... |
| 14:28 |
|
colomon |
42461 is the parrot |
| 14:28 |
|
colomon |
I'm just trying to figure out how to build ng this morning. :) |
| 14:29 |
|
moritz_ |
it has |
| 14:30 |
|
moritz_ |
rm -rf parrot_install; perl Configure --gen-parrot # profit! |
| 14:30 |
|
colomon |
and no messing around with the nqx-rx build too? |
| 14:31 |
|
moritz_ |
no |
| 14:31 |
|
PerlJam |
pmichaud++ |
| 14:35 |
|
colomon |
\o/ |
| 14:36 |
|
masak |
re-reading the mst privmsg discussion, I see that he has a concept in his mind called 'the new wave of CPAN'. could someone tell me more about that? |
| 14:37 |
|
PerlJam |
you'll probably have to ask mst about the stuff that's in his head :) |
| 14:37 |
|
colomon |
If I remember correctly, my impression was that he was talking about things like Catalyst and Moose. |
| 14:38 |
|
colomon |
CPAN projects that are the product of active development communities rather than just isolated hackers. |
| 14:38 |
|
PerlJam |
colomon: If I had to guess, I'd say it has something to do with Moose and the Mooseification of CPAN. |
| 14:39 |
|
masak |
is it somehow related to "Enlightened Perl" and "Modern Perl"? |
| 14:39 |
|
PerlJam |
(I don't see how Catalyst would come into play really other than it's an example) |
| 14:39 |
|
colomon |
an example, exactly. |
| 14:40 |
|
Su-Shee |
masak: modern perl is the chromatic stuff; enlightened perl is the organization to which mst is related afaik. |
| 14:40 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: so it's possible that "Enlightened Perl" is related to "the new wave of CPAN"? |
| 14:41 |
|
* PerlJam |
posits that speculation is less useful than asking mst directly |
| 14:41 |
|
colomon |
But then, I admit I'm trying to read mst's mind, and I can't begin to understand why someone would choose perl 5 over a properly functional perl 6, so I may not be the right person to understand him. |
| 14:41 |
|
colomon |
s/functional/working/ |
| 14:41 |
|
oZ] |
Probably going to fight the 'maturity' and 'speed' monsters for a while after 'functional' occurs. |
| 14:41 |
|
Su-Shee |
let me phrase is that way: the contemporary perl 5 seems to evolve perfectly fine with moose and family and moving towards p6 without breaking old stuff and with all the flexibility CPAN has to offer. so, think along the lines "why p6 instead?" |
| 14:42 |
|
Su-Shee |
masak I mean. |
| 14:42 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: yes. believe me, I understand that train of thought. :) been talking to mst lately. |
| 14:43 |
|
Su-Shee |
masak: enlightened perl is mostly an organization to enhance the visibility of perl itself and to lobby more/better for it. |
| 14:44 |
|
masak |
colomon: mst has a lot invested in Perl 5. I understand why he sticks to it. it's way more effective for -him- than Perl 6 even promises to be for the general programmer. |
| 14:44 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: oh, ok. I thought it was a series of pro tips, like 'Modern Perl'. |
| 14:45 |
|
masak |
I did know it was an organization, though. |
| 14:45 |
|
|
astrojp joined #perl6 |
| 14:45 |
|
Su-Shee |
well I have to admit, that the evolution around moose, poe and mojo/catalyst etc had immensely impact on my willingness to stick with perl. otherwise, I would have abandoned it long ago. |
| 14:45 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: aye; founded my mst even |
| 14:45 |
|
masak |
Tene: now that the 'spunky little sister' meme is loose, having that t-shirt would *really* be timely. :) |
| 14:46 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: nod. they constitute a revival of sorts. |
| 14:46 |
|
PerlJam |
Su-Shee: why do Moose, POE, and Catalyst matter to you exactly? |
| 14:46 |
|
* colomon |
still longs for a dark-colored Rakudo t-shirt... |
| 14:46 |
|
Su-Shee |
masak: a very impressive one. |
| 14:47 |
|
Su-Shee |
PerlJam: because it shows me the power of perl in a very impressive way at a time when I was ready to believe that python/ruby are the better choice, because supporting more "modern concepts". |
| 14:48 |
|
Su-Shee |
PerlJam: after taking a look into those projects, I was amazed _how_ immensely powerful perl really is. |
| 14:48 |
|
masak |
I feel the same. |
| 14:48 |
|
PerlJam |
Su-Shee: had python or ruby had equivalent projects, would you have gone with one of them? |
| 14:49 |
|
Su-Shee |
PerlJam: no. which is entirely personal and really only a gutt-thing: they ain't sexy. I plainly don't "like" python and I hate the fanboydom around ruby. |
| 14:49 |
|
Su-Shee |
PerlJam: perl "somehow" speaks to me. ;) |
| 14:49 |
|
masak |
as impressed as I am by Perl 6, Rakudo and the Perl 6 community, I can't help being similarly, or sometimes more, impressed by perl, CPAN and the Perl 5 community. |
| 14:49 |
|
arnsholt |
Su-Shee: That's one of the reasons I like Perl as well. The power of the language, paired with the ludicrous inventiveness (and insanity) of the community |
| 14:50 |
|
Su-Shee |
exactly. |
| 14:50 |
|
arnsholt |
Which makes Perl 5, a relatively old programming language, support pretty much any buzzword people have come up with |
| 14:50 |
|
PerlJam |
Su-Shee: You sum up well how many perl programmers think, I think. |
| 14:50 |
|
PerlJam |
Su-Shee: Perl fits my brain. |
| 14:51 |
|
* moritz_ |
wishes everybody a good weekend and disappears |
| 14:51 |
|
Su-Shee |
HOP came to the right time as well. |
| 14:51 |
|
PerlJam |
moritz_: you too! |
| 14:51 |
|
arnsholt |
That's also why I'm so excited about Perl 6. You lot are completely insane, which means the language is going to be mega-awesome =D |
| 14:51 |
|
* takadonet |
wishes he had a perl 6 debugger |
| 14:51 |
|
Su-Shee |
and consider this: |
| 14:52 |
|
Su-Shee |
"go" is suddenly all the hype and they don't have "real" classes - and so doesn't javascript (which does some very hash-y things) - so suddenly perl doesn't look so bad anymore at all.. ;) |
| 14:52 |
|
oZ] |
The Go hype will pass quickly. |
| 14:53 |
|
masak |
moritz_: lolhavetheappropriateamountoffun! |
| 14:53 |
|
arnsholt |
PerlJam: Me too! Perl fits my brain as well. Programming in Python for example gives me this horrid mental itch |
| 14:53 |
|
Su-Shee |
if the programming evolution swaps back to less OO, it's going to be interesting - especially with all the functional programming languages books suddenly popping up all over. |
| 14:53 |
|
arnsholt |
Su-Shee: IIRC, JS actually has OO. It's just not the OO you're used to from Java. It's prototype-based instead, which is quite cool |
| 14:54 |
|
colomon |
agree that programming in perl fits my brain -- which is a large part of the reason I feel that perl 6 is perl -- it fits in the same way, only better. |
| 14:54 |
|
masak |
arnsholt: you recall correctly. |
| 14:54 |
|
pmichaud |
good morning, #perl6 |
| 14:54 |
|
phenny |
pmichaud: 01:30Z <masak> tell pmichaud that I don't understand why I get 0[1[] 2[3[]] 4[]] here and not 0[1[] 1[2[]] 1[]]. http://gist.github.com/233491 -- is it a lexicals bug? binding bug? |
| 14:54 |
|
phenny |
pmichaud: 13:50Z <jnthn> tell pmichaud oh noes, I think we may have a general parsing issue with %item_assignment precedence level. Both ternary and default_value use <EXPR('i=')>, and both have parsing issues. |
| 14:54 |
|
Su-Shee |
arnsholt: that's essentially what I meant. |
| 14:54 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: morning! |
| 14:55 |
|
jnthn |
morning pmichaud :-) |
| 14:55 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll start by fixing ternary. :) |
| 14:55 |
|
PerlJam |
good morning pm |
| 14:55 |
|
pmichaud |
it's an easy fix. |
| 14:55 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Is it the same issue as with default_value? |
| 14:55 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm not sure what the issue with default value might be. |
| 14:55 |
|
pmichaud |
that one is a little trickier to imagine. do we have a short example? |
| 14:55 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: It feels like precedence. |
| 14:56 |
|
arnsholt |
colomon: Indeed. My particular fave, being a linguist with a penchant for formalisms, is the grammar stuff |
| 14:56 |
|
Su-Shee |
mine is the "compactness" of writing code. |
| 14:56 |
|
jnthn |
sub foo($x = 1) { } # fine |
| 14:56 |
|
jnthn |
sub foo($a, $b = 1) { } # fine too |
| 14:56 |
|
jnthn |
sub foo($a = 1, $b = 2) { } # confused |
| 14:56 |
|
arnsholt |
Reading the spec made me think along the lines of, "Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?!" |
| 14:56 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I think it's not stopping at the comma. |
| 14:56 |
|
PerlJam |
arnsholt: too busy holding on to the past to see into the future :) |
| 14:57 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: looking |
| 14:57 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: since |
| 14:57 |
|
jnthn |
> sub foo($a = 1, $b) { } # confused |
| 14:57 |
|
jnthn |
Symbol '$b' not predeclared in &foo |
| 14:57 |
|
jnthn |
I think that is the really incriminating one. :-) |
| 14:57 |
|
pmichaud |
easiest is to look at the parse tree |
| 14:57 |
|
arnsholt |
Ain't that the truth. And just like regexes in Perl 5, it's very excellent that the syntax is integrated in the language |
| 14:57 |
|
colomon |
arnsholt: and proper classes and operator overloading and metaoperators... it's like a dream come true for me. |
| 14:58 |
|
jnthn |
Sorry, that last one isn't confused, it gives the error I showed... |
| 14:58 |
|
PerlJam |
what does <EXPR('i=')> mean exactly? |
| 14:58 |
|
|
orafu joined #perl6 |
| 14:58 |
|
pmichaud |
parse down to the 'i=' precedence level |
| 14:58 |
|
pmichaud |
which (as defined above) should be item precedence |
| 14:58 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Yes, parse tree shows that it's swallowed up the "1, $b" |
| 14:59 |
|
pmichaud |
so whenever the operator precedence parser encounters a token with a precedence of i= or below, it should stop. |
| 14:59 |
|
arnsholt |
Reading the spec on metaoperators was fun as well. Insane stuff |
| 14:59 |
|
jnthn |
where it = default_value |
| 14:59 |
|
arnsholt |
In my mind, if I have to pick one thing that makes Perl awesome, it's the influence from functional programming |
| 15:00 |
|
arnsholt |
It makes so much sense, even if it makes some people curl up and cry =) |
| 15:00 |
|
masak |
man, "no ICU lib loaded" sucks. :( |
| 15:00 |
|
Woodi |
lastly i wonder what is plan for propper parallel programming in p6... threads, continuations ? |
| 15:00 |
|
pmichaud |
we _really_ need a FAQ |
| 15:01 |
|
masak |
another one? |
| 15:01 |
|
pmichaud |
do we have one now? |
| 15:01 |
|
masak |
Woodi: continuations aren't an example of parallel programming. but I agree those are important questions. |
| 15:01 |
|
Woodi |
not saw that question freqently... |
| 15:01 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: feels like we have hundreds at this point. :/ |
| 15:01 |
|
masak |
splintered and scattered all over the place. |
| 15:01 |
|
masak |
in various stages of info rot. |
| 15:02 |
|
pmichaud |
masak: we need one that is actually kept up to date. on perl6.org |
| 15:02 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: then perhaps pm should have said, "we really need _a_ FAQ" :) |
| 15:02 |
|
masak |
nod. |
| 15:02 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm seeing a lot of the same questions asked over and over lately |
| 15:02 |
|
pmichaud |
threads, continuations, will p5 replace p6, how will p5 use cpan, ... |
| 15:02 |
|
pmichaud |
er, how will p6 use cpan |
| 15:02 |
|
masak |
by my experience, the Perl (6) community is bad at doing official/singleton things. |
| 15:03 |
|
masak |
by design, most of the time. |
| 15:03 |
|
pmichaud |
masak: ...except for perl6.org :) |
| 15:03 |
|
pmichaud |
we have a few examples where it's worked out |
| 15:03 |
|
pmichaud |
and the test suite is another :) |
| 15:03 |
|
pmichaud |
and the spec |
| 15:03 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: yes, but there are still various other web resources where people end up instead of that one. |
| 15:04 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: the test suite and the spec are internal documents, not PR-related. |
| 15:04 |
|
pmichaud |
masak: sure, because the intertubes haven't really gotten around to making perl6.org the common path |
| 15:04 |
|
pmichaud |
I guess I should say interwebs |
| 15:04 |
|
Woodi |
pmichaud: i hang here month or so and can write somewhere answers, but first someone who KNOW answer me... |
| 15:04 |
|
masak |
I still see twitterers promoting rakudo.org as _the_ information hub for Perl 6 news. |
| 15:04 |
|
jnthn |
Thet internet is a series of tubes. |
| 15:05 |
|
carlin |
http://gist.github.com/233875 # Spectest results on Vista if anyone's interested |
| 15:05 |
|
colomon |
carlin: woah. that's a lot of failures. |
| 15:06 |
|
s1n |
about the endless Go discussion: i thought jnthn might find this interesting: http://golang.org/doc/go_lang_[…].html#overloading |
| 15:06 |
|
jnthn |
Woodi: The answer is that we don't know the full answer to that question yet. Perl 6 provides a bunch of places for declarative parallelism (junctions, hyper-operators, etc). async blocks for spawning threads seem to be commonly recognized as likely. STM has been posited, but may or may not be the way to go. Part of the problem is that we just don't have an implementation where we can actually experiment with this stuff yet. |
| 15:07 |
|
|
kaare joined #perl6 |
| 15:07 |
|
colomon |
s1n: aha! the one faq-answer explanation for why I will not be using Go. :) |
| 15:07 |
|
jnthn |
s1n: thanks, looking |
| 15:07 |
|
masak |
jnthn: doesn't Pugs do STM? |
| 15:08 |
|
|
kaare_ joined #perl6 |
| 15:08 |
|
Su-Shee |
all those question will pop up as long until there were a handful of articles when r* was released. |
| 15:08 |
|
Woodi |
jnthn: thank you. let hope adding threads (later) will not end like in p5... |
| 15:08 |
|
jnthn |
masak: I think it may well have done, but Haskell provides STM also, so it was based off that. |
| 15:08 |
|
masak |
jnthn: yes, of course. |
| 15:09 |
|
masak |
jnthn: what I meant was that there is/was an implementation where we can actually experiment with this stuff. |
| 15:09 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Yes, but sadly it's not so up to date at the moment with other aspects of current Perl 6. |
| 15:10 |
|
jnthn |
Plus if we want to tweak it in response to "oh, coudln't this way work better", I don't think we have anybody around capable of doing that. |
| 15:10 |
|
masak |
I'm not so sure it's _that_ difficult. :) |
| 15:10 |
|
masak |
I've been delving into the Pugs internals at times. |
| 15:10 |
|
masak |
sure, they're really scary, but not supernaturally so. |
| 15:11 |
|
Woodi |
i read STM is not so superb... what about Actor model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model), seems Go channels comes from there... |
| 15:11 |
|
masak |
I think if someone wanted to pick up Pugs development again, even some non-audreyt person, it would be quite possible. |
| 15:11 |
|
jnthn |
Woodi: Yes, I've heard varying opinions on STM. |
| 15:11 |
|
masak |
Woodi: write a proposal, and we'll try it! |
| 15:12 |
|
jnthn |
masak: I expect so, it's just that someone who wants to coming along and doing it. :-) |
| 15:13 |
|
Woodi |
masak: i am more in questions and answers (PR) then specs. but working on it... |
| 15:13 |
|
s1n |
what i find most interesting about Go: google had engineers working full time on it, it's an incredibly basic language, and yet it still took 2 years |
| 15:13 |
|
masak |
jnthn: don't look at me! I'm... busy. :) |
| 15:14 |
|
jnthn |
s1n: Well, it's not untrue that it simplifies things to not do either of those. :-) |
| 15:14 |
|
|
rfordinal joined #perl6 |
| 15:15 |
|
s1n |
jnthn: it just strikes me as funny given how much people bitch about perl6's dev time |
| 15:15 |
|
jnthn |
s1n: Well, yes. :-) |
| 15:15 |
|
jnthn |
masak: My hope is that we'll be able to start experimenting with threads things in Rakudo in the not too distant future. |
| 15:16 |
|
arnsholt |
Someone mentioned C++0x a little while ago as well |
| 15:16 |
|
arnsholt |
And they're just working on a spec! |
| 15:16 |
|
s1n |
arnsholt: it was me :) |
| 15:16 |
|
arnsholt |
s1n: Oh, right |
| 15:17 |
|
s1n |
arnsholt: they're spec has taken ~11 years |
| 15:17 |
|
s1n |
well, it's not a spec |
| 15:17 |
|
s1n |
just a change to c++98 |
| 15:17 |
|
arnsholt |
Oh? |
| 15:17 |
|
s1n |
c++ was already approved by iso, so they're just making some changes |
| 15:17 |
|
|
Psyche^ joined #perl6 |
| 15:19 |
|
PerlJam |
and, of course, the existence of C++ means that C is obsolete, right? |
| 15:19 |
|
PerlJam |
;-) |
| 15:19 |
|
s1n |
heh |
| 15:19 |
|
s1n |
ironically, they made it a different language with a different name, maybe there's a lesson there |
| 15:20 |
|
PerlJam |
We have a different name. "Perl 6" ne "Perl 5" :-) |
| 15:21 |
|
PerlJam |
but also note how everyone seems to want to keep "C" in there for C, C++, C#, C++0x, etc. |
| 15:22 |
|
s1n |
there's a B and a D too :) |
| 15:23 |
|
|
iblechbot joined #perl6 |
| 15:23 |
|
PerlJam |
yeah, but no one uses those. |
| 15:24 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: confirmed a bug in the operator precedence parser... looking to fix |
| 15:26 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud++ |
| 15:29 |
|
|
KyleHa joined #perl6 |
| 15:29 |
|
PerlJam |
someone refresh my memory on how foo {*} #= bar works. As soon as "foo" is parsed, a method named for the rule within which foo appears is fired with 2 args $/, and "bar" yes? |
| 15:30 |
|
[particle] |
correct |
| 15:30 |
|
[particle] |
in old nqp. std doesn't use #= anymore, and i don't know if nqp-rx uses it |
| 15:31 |
|
jnthn |
Yes, it's still available. |
| 15:31 |
|
jnthn |
We use it in maybe one or two places in Rakudo's grammar in ng. |
| 15:31 |
|
jnthn |
(Where we want to pop into the action method at somewhere other than at the end of the rule.) |
| 15:31 |
|
[particle] |
that makes sense, because otherwise it wouldn't be drop-in replacement |
| 15:32 |
|
jnthn |
Yes, there's that angle too. :-) |
| 15:33 |
|
jnthn |
I'm *so* happy we don't have to put {*} into every token/rule now though. |
| 15:35 |
|
PerlJam |
jnthn: what do you mean? |
| 15:35 |
|
PerlJam |
{*} was required for the method to execute? |
| 15:36 |
|
jnthn |
PerlJam: Correct. |
| 15:36 |
|
PerlJam |
huh, I don't remember that at all. |
| 15:36 |
|
jnthn |
PerlJam: See grammar.pg in master. |
| 15:36 |
|
jnthn |
And all of the {*} :-) |
| 15:37 |
|
|
mberends joined #perl6 |
| 15:38 |
|
* mberends |
returns from the dentist, having had a Good Idea |
| 15:38 |
|
* jnthn |
waits for mberends to drill it into us |
| 15:38 |
|
mberends |
ok :) |
| 15:38 |
|
jnthn |
oh gah, my punitis is playing up again... :-/ |
| 15:39 |
|
* jnthn |
listens attentively |
| 15:40 |
|
masak |
jnthn: puns about drills are boring. :P |
| 15:40 |
|
mberends |
it's almost written here a few minutes ago. To not annoy the Perl 5 community, we take a meme from the C language family and rename 'Perl 6' to 'Perl++' |
| 15:40 |
|
* masak |
feels very reluctant to rename Perl 6 |
| 15:41 |
|
mberends |
the karma bots will have to learn pre-increment, but that's doable |
| 15:41 |
|
masak |
in the worst scenario, it'll be another PR disaster. |
| 15:41 |
|
mberends |
ok, I had to get that off my mind, must travel UK->NL now |
| 15:41 |
|
* mberends |
waves |
| 15:42 |
|
masak |
mberends: o/ |
| 15:42 |
|
KyleHa |
Thanks for the idea, mberends++ |
| 15:42 |
|
masak |
we'll think++ about it. |
| 15:43 |
|
PerlJam |
I don't remember where I read it or what, but there was some company that had a bad reputation and they did a study on how much they'd have to spend to fix it. The study concluded that they could spend their entire marketing/advertizing budget on it for the next 100 years before it would make a dent in public perception. |
| 15:44 |
|
PerlJam |
Their solution was to change names. (which worked) |
| 15:44 |
|
PerlJam |
As long as perl 6 isn't irrevocably damaged, we shouldn't change the name IMHO |
| 15:45 |
|
diakopter |
or break it up into a bunch of littler pieces with more functionally descriptive names. |
| 15:45 |
|
* diakopter |
sort-of backlogged today; sigh. |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
PerlJam: I've been brought up-to-speed this week on how large the damage is. it's massive, but I don't think it's irrevocable. |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
diakopter: you mean like, PGE, PCT, nqp, Rakudo...? |
| 15:46 |
|
diakopter |
yah |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
diakopter: that's good for people who care. |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
outsiders don't, generally, care. |
| 15:46 |
|
jnthn |
That doesn't solve the problem that the language still needs a name. |
| 15:47 |
|
PerlJam |
jnthn: it's the PGET+PCT+NQP+Rakudo language! :) |
| 15:47 |
|
pmichaud |
I've been wondering if perhaps part of the solution is to focus less on "Perl 6" and more on another name, like "Rakudo" |
| 15:47 |
|
masak |
diakopter: I remember the first 2-3 times I saw diagrams with flows describing PAST->POST->PIR. all I thought was 'tech the tech tech'. |
| 15:48 |
|
masak |
diakopter: you only start caring about such abstractions as they become useful to you. |
| 15:48 |
|
PerlJam |
pmichaud: be careful not to use up all the good names too quick. |
| 15:48 |
|
PerlJam |
we'd also need to be careful not to transfer the bad vibes too |
| 15:48 |
|
pmichaud |
actually |
| 15:49 |
|
Su-Shee |
PerlJam: you mean for all the other 3458604396 perls coming up next week? :) |
| 15:49 |
|
pmichaud |
perhaps what we could lightly suggest is that Perl 5 get an additional "tag name" (more) |
| 15:49 |
|
PerlJam |
(unless that's the goal, shift all the bad vibes to a new name and then abandon the name) |
| 15:49 |
|
pmichaud |
there's already Vanilla Perl, Strawberry Perl, etc. |
| 15:49 |
|
PerlJam |
Perl 6 == Ueber Perl |
| 15:49 |
|
pmichaud |
in the case of Perl 6, we refused to have an official Perl 6 -- so we have Rakudo, Pugs, Elf, etc. |
| 15:49 |
|
* Su-Shee |
already says rakudo perl in every day talks about perl 6. |
| 15:49 |
|
PerlJam |
Perl 6 == Super Perl (comes with a cape and theme music) |
| 15:50 |
|
pmichaud |
maybe (and I do mean *maybe*) perl 5 could start doing distributions as well |
| 15:51 |
|
PerlJam |
perl is already chopped up for linux dists, we might as well exert a little control over that process by doing the chopping ourselves |
| 15:51 |
|
Woodi |
Perl 6 is like ISO standard.. Rakudo is like GCC.. |
| 15:51 |
|
PerlJam |
(at least that's how I'd pitch it to p5p) |
| 15:51 |
|
pmichaud |
perhaps the conversations could shift away from "Perl 5 versus Perl 6" to things like "Rakudo Perl versus Strawberry Perl" ? |
| 15:51 |
|
pmichaud |
which more explicitly recognizes that different distributions would be more suitable to different applications |
| 15:52 |
|
diakopter |
re: 'That doesn't solve the problem that the language still needs a name.' - okay. how about CORE, since that's what the setting calls itself |
| 15:52 |
|
pmichaud |
but they're all under this nice umbrella we know as "perl"? |
| 15:52 |
|
pmichaud |
er, "Perl" |
| 15:52 |
|
Su-Shee |
difficult. strawberry is specifically windows perl. |
| 15:52 |
|
Woodi |
maybe just write p6 compatible compiler using p5 codebase ? name is not main problem... |
| 15:52 |
|
diakopter |
COAR |
| 15:52 |
|
|
gbacon joined #perl6 |
| 15:52 |
|
|
nihiliad joined #perl6 |
| 15:52 |
|
PerlJam |
Woodi: you're giving a technical solution to something that's a social problem. |
| 15:53 |
|
Woodi |
btw. name can be "Way of Flaying Mug" |
| 15:53 |
|
pmichaud |
Su-Shee: yes, Strawberry is specifically windows perl, but that's kind of my point. |
| 15:53 |
|
PerlJam |
Su-Shee: seems like that fits right in to me. |
| 15:53 |
|
pmichaud |
if I wanted to run Perl on Windows, I'd recommend "Strawberry Perl" |
| 15:53 |
|
Su-Shee |
ah, now I got it. |
| 15:53 |
|
PerlJam |
Hmm. |
| 15:53 |
|
pmichaud |
if I want to run Perl on unix, then... |
| 15:54 |
|
Su-Shee |
pmichaud: you run perl. |
| 15:54 |
|
pmichaud |
Su-Shee: right. But if I want to run Perl 6 on unix, then ... |
| 15:54 |
|
pmichaud |
... I run Rakudo. |
| 15:54 |
|
Woodi |
PerlJam: yea, becouse name Greeky tragic problem... |
| 15:54 |
|
Su-Shee |
pmichaud: _I_ run rakudo perl. and before I ran pugs perl. |
| 15:54 |
|
pmichaud |
right |
| 15:54 |
|
diakopter |
Flaying? Flying? |
| 15:55 |
|
pmichaud |
my point is that perhaps a help to this is for perl 5 to find a way to make the same distinction between "language" and "distribution" that we've been doing for Perl 6 |
| 15:55 |
|
Woodi |
PerlJam: bad p6 name will make p6 dead, good name will make p5 unhappy... |
| 15:55 |
|
TimToady |
the name of Perl 6 is still Perl 6, and I don't see that changing |
| 15:55 |
|
pmichaud |
it's already worked well for Strawberry Perl, so we're not completely off-the-wall |
| 15:55 |
|
diakopter |
pmichaud: I think that's valid, if you combine it with my point about the cross-dependency/interop |
| 15:55 |
|
* KyleHa |
considers the set of problems that can be solved with only a name change. |
| 15:56 |
|
pmichaud |
TimToady: I think we take that as axiomatic, fwiw |
| 15:56 |
|
pmichaud |
TimToady: at least I do :) |
| 15:57 |
|
|
lithos joined #perl6 |
| 15:57 |
|
* masak |
too |
| 15:57 |
|
masak |
though I've never been as unsure about it as I am now. :/ |
| 15:59 |
|
pmichaud |
anyway, if Perl 5 can come up with other names, then to some extent we can eliminate the 6 > 5 issue. |
| 15:59 |
|
pmichaud |
or at least let that not be the focus of a discussion. |
| 15:59 |
|
oZ] |
New Perl / Perl Classic? |
| 15:59 |
|
pmichaud |
I've been specifically trying to avoid the "Classic" label. |
| 16:00 |
|
PerlJam |
oZ]: gack! no! |
| 16:00 |
|
oZ] |
;) |
| 16:00 |
|
diakopter |
Perl vLast |
| 16:00 |
|
diakopter |
(kidding) |
| 16:01 |
|
diakopter |
viPerl |
| 16:02 |
|
Woodi |
so: 1. Perl6 is new language; 2. p5 and p6 languages are uncompatible ? |
| 16:03 |
|
pmichaud |
Woodi: I'm not drawing #2 as a conclusion, no. |
| 16:03 |
|
|
alester joined #perl6 |
| 16:04 |
|
Woodi |
pmichaud: i prefer not 2. but facts tell other thing... and now we can talk about PR... |
| 16:04 |
|
PerlJam |
the real question might be are p5 and p6 culturally compatible |
| 16:04 |
|
KyleHa |
WorkInFactPerl & WorkInProgressPerl |
| 16:05 |
|
oZ] |
They're both ridiculously TMTOWTDI. |
| 16:05 |
|
PerlJam |
KyleHa: those are fine for Perl 5, but what about Perl 6? |
| 16:05 |
|
jsut|work |
it seems to me like the p6/parrot community is having significant impact on p5 |
| 16:05 |
|
PerlJam |
:) |
| 16:05 |
|
arnsholt |
PerlJam: Hopefully they will be, once the community of Perl 6 users becomes more "mainstream" |
| 16:06 |
|
|
gbacon joined #perl6 |
| 16:07 |
|
PerlJam |
arnsholt: I think it's safe to say that many people in the Perl 6 community are ardent Perl 5 users. that's a good start. |
| 16:08 |
|
PerlJam |
The problem is that there's a significant portion of the Perl 5 community that thinks we've all had our kool-aid spiked. |
| 16:08 |
|
PerlJam |
:) |
| 16:08 |
|
arnsholt |
Heh |
| 16:08 |
|
TimToady |
yes, well, there's more than one flavor of kool-aid... |
| 16:09 |
|
|
gbacon joined #perl6 |
| 16:09 |
|
diakopter |
tmtofoka |
| 16:09 |
|
pmichaud |
omg debugging is soooo much easier in nqp(-rx) ! |
| 16:09 |
|
|
ejs joined #perl6 |
| 16:10 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 16:10 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I've just ripped out some of the num-ops cheats. :-) |
| 16:10 |
|
pmichaud |
found the bug, testing |
| 16:10 |
|
pmichaud |
(testing fix) |
| 16:10 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: yay :-) |
| 16:10 |
|
pmichaud |
looks like it was a copy-pasto |
| 16:10 |
|
jnthn |
d'oh |
| 16:10 |
|
PerlJam |
does that mean that nqp has the same opp problem? |
| 16:11 |
|
pmichaud |
PerlJam: not any more it doesn't (the bug is in the EXPR code that both nqp and rakudo-ng use) |
| 16:11 |
|
pmichaud |
so yes, nqp had the same problem, but no longer does. |
| 16:11 |
|
* Woodi |
realy prefer p5 gain new functionalities... up to point it can be compatible with p6 spec... |
| 16:11 |
|
pmichaud |
PerlJam: did you add tests for the statement modifiers in nqp? |
| 16:11 |
|
PerlJam |
I did. |
| 16:12 |
|
pmichaud |
where? |
| 16:12 |
|
pmichaud |
02-if.t, etc? |
| 16:12 |
|
PerlJam |
tests 5 & 6 in 02-if.t and 04-unless.t IIRC |
| 16:12 |
|
pmichaud |
okay |
| 16:12 |
|
pmichaud |
wfm |
| 16:12 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29066 | masak++ | [perl6.org] changed border colors to better contrast with their fill colors |
| 16:13 |
|
|
ab5tract joined #perl6 |
| 16:13 |
|
PerlJam |
though, I'm trying to use {*} #= key and it's not working at all as I would like. |
| 16:14 |
|
PerlJam |
(the key doesn't seem to get set) |
| 16:14 |
|
pmichaud |
use of {*} #= ought to be rare. |
| 16:14 |
|
TimToady |
I ate the last one for supper last night. :P |
| 16:15 |
|
PerlJam |
maybe I just have old-nqp-think in my head |
| 16:15 |
|
TimToady |
{*} is a code smell that suggests decomposition |
| 16:18 |
|
masak |
wow; last year {*} was all the rage. now it's already a code smell. :) |
| 16:18 |
|
masak |
things oxidize far too rapidly in this business... |
| 16:19 |
|
pmichaud |
masak: no, they're just over-reacting. :) |
| 16:19 |
|
pmichaud |
besides, {*} is definitely a place for reducing agents |
| 16:19 |
|
TimToady |
they should only be used with cation though |
| 16:20 |
|
* masak |
groans |
| 16:20 |
|
masak |
I sense a runaway chain reaction of chemistry jokes... |
| 16:20 |
|
masak |
swimming & |
| 16:21 |
|
pmichaud |
.oO(swimming .... in heavy water?) |
| 16:21 |
|
TimToady |
I think deuterium should be renamed to something less insulting to hydrogen. |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: 9555dc3 | pmichaud++ | src/cheats/ (2 files): |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: Move <ternary> subrule into HLL::Grammar. |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]c32e26109fb119959 |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: b6a6b03 | pmichaud++ | src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir: |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: Fix bug in preclim handling of EXPR() subrule. |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]cb19261d6c394b7e1 |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: cf48f55 | pmichaud++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pir: |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: Allow Grammar.parse() to take the name of a subrule as well as a rule. |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]e1dde2b2ec9fea21b |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: 130a2bb | pmichaud++ | src/Regex/Cursor.pir: |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: Change rule argument in Cursor.parse to be a named argument. |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]e504df83f45746c73 |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: 344775f | pmichaud++ | src/stage0/ (4 files): |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: Update bootstrap versions. |
| 16:25 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]125da182fda3b543a |
| 16:25 |
|
|
justatheory joined #perl6 |
| 16:25 |
|
diakopter |
, in theory I mean |
| 16:26 |
|
justatheory |
wow, some lag |
| 16:28 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Heh. One line deletion fixes the bug? :-) |
| 16:28 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: it does. |
| 16:28 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud++ |
| 16:28 |
|
pmichaud |
at least, it appears to do so. |
| 16:28 |
|
pmichaud |
we'll know shortly -- I'm updating parrot's copy of nqp now |
| 16:28 |
|
* jnthn |
builds a latest nqp-rx |
| 16:28 |
|
jnthn |
oh, or I can wait for that. |
| 16:29 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I've just been re-organizing value parsing a bit to look more STD-ish. |
| 16:29 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: okay, good. |
| 16:29 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I'm at the point now where I can the number parsing (for non-integers) can go in. |
| 16:30 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: I was thinking about that last night, and how I'd like to organize it. I'm thinking I'll have a string_to_num function to do it. |
| 16:30 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Sounds fine to me. |
| 16:30 |
|
pmichaud |
actually, more accurate will be string_to_rat |
| 16:30 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I'm wondering if we can parse Rat.pm yet. Maybe we can... |
| 16:30 |
|
pmichaud |
that would likely be high on the list, yes. |
| 16:31 |
|
jnthn |
I can do that now. |
| 16:31 |
|
jnthn |
I've been putting back lots of numbers bits. |
| 16:31 |
|
pmichaud |
I may put string_to_rat into HLL::Grammar, though |
| 16:31 |
|
pmichaud |
so other languages can use it :) |
| 16:31 |
|
jnthn |
Yes :-) |
| 16:31 |
|
jnthn |
Let me see what I can do with Rat. |
| 16:31 |
|
pmichaud |
in particular, it converts 123.45 into 12345 / 100 |
| 16:31 |
|
jnthn |
Cool |
| 16:32 |
|
pmichaud |
and dead.beef into 0xdeadbeef / 65536 :-) |
| 16:33 |
|
pmichaud |
(assuming base 16 on "dead.beef") |
| 16:33 |
|
jnthn |
.oO( token steak { } ) |
| 16:33 |
|
pmichaud |
too bad 'r' is so late in the alphabet, so we could do something with "beer" :) |
| 16:33 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: OK. I've got the number rule in place now, and numish...so if you like, you can take that and start to fillet out. ;-) |
| 16:33 |
|
pmichaud |
I will do that. |
| 16:33 |
|
TimToady |
just need base 28 or so |
| 16:34 |
|
pmichaud |
"beer". "ale". "mead" |
| 16:34 |
|
pmichaud |
bah |
| 16:34 |
|
|
seanstickle joined #perl6 |
| 16:34 |
|
pmichaud |
"brew" |
| 16:34 |
|
jnthn |
rakudo: say :28<beer> |
| 16:34 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: 252867 |
| 16:34 |
|
jnthn |
My new favorite number. |
| 16:35 |
|
|
gbacon joined #perl6 |
| 16:35 |
|
TimToady |
rakudo: say :16<beer> |
| 16:35 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: 48891 |
| 16:35 |
|
TimToady |
rakudo: say :2<beer> |
| 16:36 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: 199 |
| 16:36 |
|
pmichaud |
that's fixed in the ng branch, fwiw |
| 16:36 |
|
TimToady |
it's worth a free beer :) |
| 16:36 |
|
jnthn |
oh hol |
| 16:37 |
|
jnthn |
Rat just went and compiled straight off. |
| 16:37 |
|
pmichaud |
those dirty rats.... so, can we run the tests? or do we need numish for that? ;-) |
| 16:37 |
|
TimToady |
I smell a Rat smell |
| 16:37 |
|
|
oZ] left #perl6 |
| 16:37 |
|
pmichaud |
we might need the integer operators |
| 16:38 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: See my recent ng commits... :-) |
| 16:40 |
|
|
seanstickle left #perl6 |
| 16:42 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: oh damm...I think I failed. |
| 16:42 |
|
jnthn |
It actually...doesn't quite compile. |
| 16:45 |
|
jnthn |
OK, now it does. :-) |
| 16:47 |
|
pmichaud |
pmichaud orange:~/ng$ ./perl6 |
| 16:47 |
|
pmichaud |
> sub xyz($a = 1, $b = 2) { 1 } |
| 16:47 |
|
lambdabot |
<no location info>: parse error on input `=' |
| 16:47 |
|
pmichaud |
# no longer confused |
| 16:47 |
|
jnthn |
Unless you're lambdabot, of course. |
| 16:47 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud++ # thanks |
| 16:47 |
|
pmichaud |
I think this also fixes ternary (which was a different problem) |
| 16:48 |
|
|
fax joined #perl6 |
| 16:48 |
|
pmichaud |
> say 1 ?? 'yes' !! 'no' |
| 16:48 |
|
pmichaud |
yes |
| 16:48 |
|
pmichaud |
> say 0 ?? 'yes' !! 'no' |
| 16:48 |
|
pmichaud |
no |
| 16:48 |
|
lambdabot |
<no location info>: |
| 16:48 |
|
lambdabot |
lexical error in string/character literal at chara... |
| 16:48 |
|
lambdabot |
<no location info>: |
| 16:48 |
|
lambdabot |
lexical error in string/character literal at chara... |
| 16:48 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Ah, OK. |
| 16:48 |
|
jnthn |
Great. :-) |
| 16:48 |
|
[particle] |
pmichaud: what do you think about including the nqp-rx source as comments in the generated pir? |
| 16:48 |
|
KyleHa |
I love ternary! |
| 16:48 |
|
jnthn |
I can uncomment a bunch of stuff. |
| 16:49 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I seem to haz a fail in "is copy"...after fixing that, Rat might work. |
| 16:49 |
|
pmichaud |
[particle]: you mean that goes into the parrot repo? I think we should have the sources themselves as separate files. |
| 16:50 |
|
pmichaud |
the purpose of having the original source is so that parrot could fix a minor bug independent of the nqp-rx repo |
| 16:50 |
|
pmichaud |
so for that, the actual files are better |
| 16:51 |
|
[particle] |
ok, then how about line# annotations? |
| 16:51 |
|
colomon |
jnthn: Is there any real reason for "is copy" to be there in the Rat constructor? I know pmichaud did that, but I never understood why... |
| 16:52 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Because it modifies the gcd |
| 16:52 |
|
jnthn |
gah, wrong sentence, wrong nick |
| 16:52 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: Because we use gcd and then modify $numerator in the routine. |
| 16:53 |
|
colomon |
jnthn: that makes perfectly good sense. (Though I think the is copy was there before the GCD routine was...) |
| 16:53 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: Aye. I'm not sure 100%, there may well be a reason. |
| 16:54 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud++ tends to have reasons for doing things :-) |
| 16:54 |
|
colomon |
He may have just expected the gcd bit would be coming soon... |
| 16:54 |
|
jnthn |
maybe ;-) |
| 16:55 |
|
pmichaud |
it's possible that I did copy to avoid attribute initialization problems also |
| 16:55 |
|
jnthn |
ah, ok |
| 16:55 |
|
pmichaud |
anyway, do whatever makes sense for the new implementation :) |
| 16:55 |
|
jnthn |
I'm lazy...dragging in code we know works makes sense to me. ;-) |
| 16:55 |
|
pmichaud |
unless that code was based on cheats or incorrect assumptions, though |
| 16:56 |
|
jnthn |
oh crap...I broke the build I think. |
| 16:57 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Is the rw flag just "rw" or "$!rw"? |
| 16:57 |
|
pmichaud |
I think it's just "rw" right now |
| 16:57 |
|
jnthn |
And does it have to be a true value, or just non-null? |
| 16:57 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm fine with switching it |
| 16:57 |
|
pmichaud |
I think we want it to be true |
| 16:57 |
|
jnthn |
gah |
| 16:57 |
|
jnthn |
ok |
| 16:57 |
|
pmichaud |
looking |
| 16:57 |
|
pmichaud |
it checks for truth |
| 16:58 |
|
pmichaud |
(as well as non-null) |
| 16:58 |
|
pmichaud |
[particle]: aren't the line numbers in the source already? |
| 16:59 |
|
[particle] |
maybe i missed them. i'm looking at a diff of nqp-rx in the parrot repo, and it's impossible to see what actually changed |
| 16:59 |
|
pmichaud |
yes, it's very hard to see the changes from the source diffs |
| 16:59 |
|
pmichaud |
if we had the full source tree there, it'd be easy to see. |
| 16:59 |
|
[particle] |
yes, that's true |
| 16:59 |
|
pmichaud |
but seeing changes in generate code is likely to be really hard no matter what we do. |
| 17:00 |
|
[particle] |
it would be easier for me to search for /^[-+]#/ |
| 17:00 |
|
[particle] |
that's why i suggested the comments, but source is easier still |
| 17:01 |
|
pmichaud |
well, the line numbers generally appear as '.annotate "line", ##' |
| 17:01 |
|
pmichaud |
although I might not have the source files in place yet |
| 17:01 |
|
pmichaud |
(the source file annotations, that is) |
| 17:01 |
|
pmichaud |
should probably do that this weekend |
| 17:02 |
|
|
ronny_ left #perl6 |
| 17:02 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: yes, broken build here :-( |
| 17:03 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: pushed fix, but amongst it all I seem to ahve got some new test failures... |
| 17:03 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I'm not sure quite where they slipped in. Investigating. |
| 17:08 |
|
|
jan_ joined #perl6 |
| 17:09 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: ah, it was something about adding Rat back. |
| 17:10 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Backed it out of Makefile.in for now. |
| 17:10 |
|
pmichaud |
okay |
| 17:11 |
|
pmichaud |
bbiab |
| 17:11 |
|
jnthn |
I have a nasty idea what it may be... |
| 17:21 |
|
jnthn |
Yes, it is that... :-| |
| 17:21 |
|
jnthn |
class Foo { }; multi bar(Foo $x) { }; bar(Foo.new) # fail - the loadinit that builds the class ends up coming after the one for building the signature of the sub. |
| 17:23 |
|
pmichaud |
huh? |
| 17:23 |
|
pmichaud |
that doesn't seem right. |
| 17:23 |
|
pmichaud |
loadinits are supposed to be generated in the same sequence the blocks appear in the tree |
| 17:23 |
|
pmichaud |
is something happening that causes the loadinits for class Foo to be attached to something other than its block? |
| 17:24 |
|
pmichaud |
oh |
| 17:24 |
|
pmichaud |
I know what it is |
| 17:24 |
|
pmichaud |
it's that the loadinit for bar() is being attached to its outer scope |
| 17:24 |
|
pmichaud |
because it's now lexical |
| 17:24 |
|
pmichaud |
we need to do the same for the module loadinits |
| 17:25 |
|
pmichaud |
(we'll have to do that when we get to lexical classes anyway) |
| 17:26 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah |
| 17:26 |
|
pmichaud |
so, instead of putting the class setup code on the .loadinit for its block, put it on the other block |
| 17:26 |
|
jnthn |
That'll be the fix. |
| 17:26 |
|
pmichaud |
that should fix it. |
| 17:26 |
|
jnthn |
*nod* |
| 17:26 |
|
pmichaud |
(and it'll be more correct when we do lexical classes) |
| 17:26 |
|
jnthn |
Right, lexical classes should become quite easy then. |
| 17:26 |
|
pmichaud |
okay |
| 17:26 |
|
pmichaud |
any priorities you think I need to be working on today? |
| 17:26 |
|
jnthn |
OK, I can fix that. |
| 17:27 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm about to grab some lunch, but can work on a variety of things when I return |
| 17:27 |
|
jnthn |
You've dealt with some of the biggest ones. |
| 17:27 |
|
jnthn |
(the ternary and the default value issue) |
| 17:27 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll probably do num handling |
| 17:27 |
|
jnthn |
Yes, that would be excellent. |
| 17:27 |
|
pmichaud |
we need/want it for nqp as well |
| 17:27 |
|
jnthn |
In fact, what I was going to suggest. |
| 17:27 |
|
pmichaud |
okay |
| 17:27 |
|
pmichaud |
so, nom, then num |
| 17:27 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 17:27 |
|
pmichaud |
bbiaw |
| 17:28 |
|
jnthn |
k |
| 17:28 |
|
jnthn |
Actually, I could use some fresh air and I need to go to the store at some point anyway... |
| 17:28 |
|
* jnthn |
takes a break too |
| 17:38 |
|
quietfanatic |
Now, I know caller() is NYI, but is there a way to emulate it, like with PIR? |
| 17:43 |
|
PerlJam |
quietfanatic: I seem to recall that there's a PIR op that tells you such information from a Parrot perspective. |
| 17:44 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29067 | lwall++ | [S05] <foo=bar> doesn't suppress bar capture, use <foo=.bar> for that |
| 17:44 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29067 | Send :keepall off to go and live with :panic. |
| 17:47 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29068 | lwall++ | [STD] capture integer parts for pmichaud++ |
| 17:47 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29068 | add <binint> and <decint> rules, and use <fooint> consistently |
| 17:47 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29068 | use new <foo=.bar> notation consistently everywhere |
| 17:49 |
|
|
cdarroch joined #perl6 |
| 17:52 |
|
PerlJam |
Hmm. So ternary is fixed now? or no? |
| 17:54 |
|
PerlJam |
oh. nqp/rakudo need build/PARROT_REVISION bumped up. |
| 18:05 |
|
quietfanatic |
PerlJam: the annotations opcode just gives file and line. |
| 18:08 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29069 | lwall++ | [S05] fossils |
| 18:08 |
|
TimToady |
note you no longer have to say <foo=bar=bar> |
| 18:08 |
|
TimToady |
instead you say <foo=.bar> to get the old renaming semantics |
| 18:09 |
|
TimToady |
now only (...) --> $0 gets suppressed by an explicit alias |
| 18:10 |
|
TimToady |
shower & |
| 18:18 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: say Bool::False.name |
| 18:18 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Method 'name' not found for invocant of class ''in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324) |
| 18:18 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: say Bool::True.name |
| 18:18 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Method 'name' not found for invocant of class ''in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324) |
| 18:18 |
|
KyleHa |
Is it true that those are supposed to be there? |
| 18:21 |
|
colomon |
rakudo: say Bool::False.perl |
| 18:21 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Bool::False |
| 18:25 |
|
quietfanatic |
KyleHa: I'd think, but rakudo isn't quite all the way on top of enums right now. |
| 18:25 |
|
* jnthn |
back |
| 18:25 |
|
KyleHa |
quietfanatic: Thanks. |
| 18:25 |
|
KyleHa |
I can't find support for it in the spec, but maybe my grep-fu is weak. |
| 18:26 |
|
jnthn |
TimToady: Thanks for those! :-) |
| 18:44 |
|
diakopter |
nqp: say(3) if((say(3) if(3))) |
| 18:44 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: Confused at line 1, near "say(3) if("current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 448 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197) |
| 18:44 |
|
diakopter |
nqp: say(4) if(4) |
| 18:44 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: 4 |
| 18:44 |
|
pmichaud |
looks like a statement modifier buglet |
| 18:44 |
|
diakopter |
bugle[t] |
| 18:45 |
|
pmichaud |
TimToady++ change to renaming semantics |
| 18:45 |
|
PerlJam |
Does <ws> require whitespace? |
| 18:45 |
|
pmichaud |
...now I get to go try to clean up p6regex and nqp |
| 18:45 |
|
pmichaud |
PerlJam: no |
| 18:46 |
|
pmichaud |
PerlJam: but it does required <!ww> |
| 18:46 |
|
pmichaud |
*require |
| 18:47 |
|
pmichaud |
TimToady: fwiw, I'm not sure I need separate whole number and fractional captures anymore |
| 18:47 |
|
pmichaud |
it won't hurt to have them, but I think it may in fact be easier to treat it as a unit |
| 18:47 |
|
pmichaud |
(we'll see :-) |
| 18:49 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: 8d6dfe2 | duff++ | (4 files): |
| 18:49 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: [nqp] Naive while/until loop modifiers |
| 18:49 |
|
dalek |
nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx[…]6375ce15ad8db66e3 |
| 18:50 |
|
KyleHa |
@seen moritz_ |
| 18:50 |
|
lambdabot |
Unknown command, try @list |
| 18:50 |
|
pmichaud |
PerlJam++ # while/until |
| 18:51 |
|
pmichaud |
std: say 3 if(4); |
| 18:51 |
|
p6eval |
std 29069: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mTwo terms in a row at /tmp/qsKyud5JgM line 1:------> say 3 if⏏(4); expecting nofunFAILED 00:01 102m |
| 18:53 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: my $ro = 'unset'; sub x(Int $x){ $ro = 1 + $x }; sub x(Int $x is rw){ ++$x }; say x(5); say $ro; my $n = 6; x($n); say $n; |
| 18:53 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Redefinition of routine x666 |
| 18:54 |
|
[particle] |
if needs a space, no? |
| 18:54 |
|
pmichaud |
yes, it does. |
| 18:54 |
|
[particle] |
ok, i wondered about that nqp result above, looked right to me |
| 18:55 |
|
KyleHa |
Is that right? I see a ticket that seems to imply that $n should have changed. |
| 18:56 |
|
|
rfordinal joined #perl6 |
| 18:56 |
|
pmichaud |
KyleHa: need a "multi" |
| 18:56 |
|
KyleHa |
My test file says Ambiguous dispatch. |
| 18:57 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm not sure that rakudo master is able to distinguish "is rw" from "is readonly" yet |
| 18:57 |
|
KyleHa |
That seems true. |
| 18:57 |
|
diakopter |
nqp: say(3) if ((say(3) if (3))) |
| 18:57 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: Confused at line 1, near "say(3) if "current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 448 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197) |
| 18:58 |
|
KyleHa |
My question is whether that's a fair spec test. |
| 18:58 |
|
pmichaud |
if there's multi in front of sub, I think it is. |
| 18:58 |
|
pmichaud |
(a fair test) |
| 18:58 |
|
KyleHa |
OK, thanks, pmichaud++ |
| 18:58 |
|
pmichaud |
nqp: say(3) if (3); |
| 18:58 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: 3 |
| 18:58 |
|
pmichaud |
nqp: say(3) if (say(3)); |
| 18:58 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: 33 |
| 18:58 |
|
pmichaud |
nqp: say(3) if (say(3) if (3)); |
| 18:58 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: Confused at line 1, near "say(3) if "current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 448 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197) |
| 18:59 |
|
pmichaud |
oh yes, nqp doesn't do comprehensions |
| 18:59 |
|
pmichaud |
(yet?) |
| 18:59 |
|
pmichaud |
so it doesn't recognize statements inside of parens |
| 19:00 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: when you get back, I'm still experiencing lots of test failures in the ng branch |
| 19:00 |
|
pmichaud |
(in "make test") |
| 19:00 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: oh? |
| 19:01 |
|
pmichaud |
I can confirm that Rat isn't being included in the makefile |
| 19:01 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Check Makefile.in still doesn't have Rat in. |
| 19:01 |
|
jnthn |
OK. |
| 19:01 |
|
pmichaud |
and I've done realcleans |
| 19:01 |
|
jnthn |
perl -e "say 1 + 1" # works? |
| 19:01 |
|
pmichaud |
fails |
| 19:01 |
|
jnthn |
oh. |
| 19:01 |
|
pmichaud |
"null PMC access in invoke" |
| 19:01 |
|
jnthn |
Right, that's what I removed Rat to fix. |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
appears to have not fixed. or we have a dependency somewhere and a failure in "make clean" |
| 19:02 |
|
jnthn |
presumably perl6 -e "Rat.new" fails? |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
pmichaudorange:~/ng$ ./perl6 -e "Rat.new" |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'new' |
| 19:02 |
|
jnthn |
In a "Can't find sub &Rat" kinda way? |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
nope |
| 19:02 |
|
jnthn |
huh? |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
looks like Rat is still there somehow |
| 19:02 |
|
jnthn |
yeah |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
something wrong in the makefile, I'm guessing |
| 19:02 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll find/fix it |
| 19:02 |
|
jnthn |
cat src/gen/core.pm | grep 'class Rat' |
| 19:03 |
|
jnthn |
(Should find nothing.) |
| 19:03 |
|
pmichaud |
it's there, so core.pm isn't being updated |
| 19:03 |
|
jnthn |
oh |
| 19:03 |
|
pmichaud |
or removed when I do "make clean" |
| 19:03 |
|
jnthn |
OK, makefile fail. |
| 19:03 |
|
jnthn |
nod |
| 19:03 |
|
pmichaud |
okay, I'll fix. |
| 19:03 |
|
jnthn |
OK, thanks. |
| 19:03 |
|
jnthn |
I've sorted out that package bug...but I'm getting another weird issue as a result. |
| 19:04 |
|
jnthn |
The error/line numbers are bull. |
| 19:04 |
|
pmichaud |
oh, I see the problem. :) |
| 19:04 |
|
jnthn |
So having some fun tracking it down. |
| 19:04 |
|
pmichaud |
the PIR error line numbers? |
| 19:04 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah. |
| 19:04 |
|
pmichaud |
they've been bogus for a few weeks now |
| 19:04 |
|
|
TSa joined #perl6 |
| 19:04 |
|
pmichaud |
they always seem to correspond to the top of a sub |
| 19:04 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah, sometimes more so than others. |
| 19:04 |
|
jnthn |
:-/ |
| 19:04 |
|
jnthn |
well, that's...useless. |
| 19:05 |
|
pmichaud |
I think it has to do with annotations -- if a file has annotations in it, then the PIR line numbers are essentially lost |
| 19:05 |
|
pmichaud |
or something like that |
| 19:05 |
|
pmichaud |
anyway, it's been that way for a few weeks. very annoying and hard to debug. |
| 19:05 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29070 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 66498: quoting regex with snowman and comet |
| 19:05 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29071 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Tests for RT 66588 |
| 19:05 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29072 | kyle++ | [pm.txt] A question for TimToady |
| 19:05 |
|
|
chromatic joined #perl6 |
| 19:05 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29073 | kyle++ | [t/spec] fix multi test after talk with pmichaud++ |
| 19:05 |
|
jnthn |
Null PMC access in isa() |
| 19:05 |
|
jnthn |
current instr.: '' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1) |
| 19:05 |
|
jnthn |
# eww |
| 19:06 |
|
pmichaud |
the problem with Rat is that technically core.pm isn't out of date :-) |
| 19:06 |
|
pmichaud |
i.e., none of the files it depends on changed, even though the list of dependencies did :) |
| 19:07 |
|
pmichaud |
anyway, I'll fix it in 'make clean' |
| 19:07 |
|
Tene |
so can core.pm depend on the deps list too? |
| 19:07 |
|
pmichaud |
that's a bit hard to do in a Makefile |
| 19:07 |
|
pmichaud |
basically you need to make it depend on the Makefile |
| 19:07 |
|
pmichaud |
but some versions of make interpret that oddly |
| 19:08 |
|
Tene |
Okay. |
| 19:09 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: also, I get a fair number of compiler warnings in the *.ops and *.pmc build process -- I'll nopaste the output |
| 19:09 |
|
pmichaud |
would be good to eliminate those |
| 19:09 |
|
pmichaud |
(if we can, they look very eliminatable) |
| 19:10 |
|
pmichaud |
http://gist.github.com/234077 # compiler warnings from "make clean all" |
| 19:11 |
|
jnthn |
blech |
| 19:11 |
|
jnthn |
perl6.ops:48: warning: request for implicit conversion from ‘void *’ to ‘INTVAL (*)(struct parrot_interp_t *, struct PMC *, struct PMC *, struct PMC *, INTVAL, struct STRING **)’ not permitted in C++ |
| 19:11 |
|
jnthn |
Why do we care what C++ does?! |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
It's *C*. |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 19:12 |
|
pmichaud |
I think parrot is trying to make sure it builds in C++ |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
Sure, that this is Rakudo, not Parrot. :-) |
| 19:12 |
|
chromatic |
Some platforms don't have reliable C compilers. |
| 19:12 |
|
pmichaud |
but we use Parrot's command line. |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
Ah, yes. |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
It's still an odd warning. |
| 19:12 |
|
pmichaud |
...unless you want to create your own configure subsystem for that. |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
Oh...hmm...I know why we have it too. |
| 19:12 |
|
jnthn |
But I'm not sure how to fix it. |
| 19:13 |
|
jnthn |
Oh |
| 19:13 |
|
pmichaud |
...make the conversion not implicit? |
| 19:13 |
|
jnthn |
Maybe just a missing cast. |
| 19:13 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah |
| 19:13 |
|
jnthn |
I'd missed the "implicit" |
| 19:14 |
|
jnthn |
perl6.ops:643: warning: nested extern declaration of ‘Parrot_ext_call’ # anyone know what this one means? |
| 19:14 |
|
pmichaud |
I think it means you have a nested extern declaration of 'Parrot_ext_call' :-P |
| 19:14 |
|
pmichaud |
(No.) |
| 19:15 |
|
jnthn |
:-P |
| 19:15 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I'll see if I can quieten it down a bit later on. :-) |
| 19:15 |
|
pmichaud |
okay, great. Just wanted to let you see the warnings I was seeing. I figured you weren't seeing them on your system. |
| 19:15 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: oh no!! |
| 19:16 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I think I've just found the bug. |
| 19:16 |
|
chromatic |
You didn't include parrot/extend.h. |
| 19:16 |
|
jnthn |
Or something related to it. |
| 19:16 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: Ah...in that case it's an easy fix - thanks. |
| 19:17 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: OK, here's what I'm running into...maybe you know The Answer. |
| 19:17 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I moved the decl code for the class into the enclosing package's loadinit. |
| 19:18 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: It fixes the issue I found, but we now have a new one. |
| 19:18 |
|
jnthn |
The init code for the method emits: |
| 19:18 |
|
jnthn |
get_hll_global $P367, ["Object"], "true" |
| 19:18 |
|
jnthn |
Which is handing back null, since we don't put the thing in the namespace (no nsentry) |
| 19:18 |
|
pmichaud |
"true" is wrong. |
| 19:18 |
|
jnthn |
Worse, the loadinit is looking it up that way too, rather than by subid. |
| 19:19 |
|
jnthn |
Trying to look it up in the namespace at all is wrong, no? |
| 19:19 |
|
pmichaud |
there is no "true" in the namespace |
| 19:19 |
|
pmichaud |
there is no "true" |
| 19:19 |
|
jnthn |
Right. |
| 19:20 |
|
jnthn |
That doesn't really help me. :-) |
| 19:20 |
|
pmichaud |
what is generating that code? |
| 19:20 |
|
pmichaud |
whatever is generating that statement is wrong. |
| 19:21 |
|
jnthn |
The PAST tree I build has the loadinit of the package containing the class we're declaring. |
| 19:21 |
|
jnthn |
It has a call to add_method, and that's where the PAST for the method is living. |
| 19:21 |
|
pmichaud |
let me restate what I think you just said (or intended to say) |
| 19:22 |
|
jnthn |
However, since the loadinit we're putting this into is outside of the namespace, we have to set .namespace on the methods's block. Otherwise, the method is in the wrong ns and "export" doesn't work. |
| 19:22 |
|
pmichaud |
okay |
| 19:22 |
|
pmichaud |
thinking |
| 19:23 |
|
jnthn |
However, then the call to add_method gets emitted with a get_hll_global. |
| 19:23 |
|
pmichaud |
the PAST tree you build is the one for the class declaration |
| 19:23 |
|
pmichaud |
yes? |
| 19:23 |
|
jnthn |
Yes. |
| 19:23 |
|
pmichaud |
it contains the add_method calls, yes? |
| 19:23 |
|
jnthn |
Right |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
and the add_method calls are also the things that handle is export |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
? |
| 19:24 |
|
jnthn |
No |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
I mean as part of the class declaration |
| 19:24 |
|
jnthn |
is export is done from the loadinit of the block itself. |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
oh |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
put the class declaration into its own block with an appropriate namespace setting. |
| 19:24 |
|
jnthn |
The thing is that is export, afaik, cares about what namespace it's called from. |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
(immediate block) |
| 19:24 |
|
jnthn |
Yes, that's what we used to do. |
| 19:24 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm saying do that again. |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm saying there are two blocks |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
one for the class declaration, one for the package body |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
the class declaration one is executed at .loadinit |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
(as part of its outer package's .loadinit) |
| 19:25 |
|
jnthn |
Oh, you mean we call it from the outer package's .loadinit? |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
the package body one is treated like a normal bare immediate block |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
yes. |
| 19:25 |
|
jnthn |
Ah |
| 19:25 |
|
jnthn |
That would work, I guess. |
| 19:26 |
|
pmichaud |
the alternative is to find a way for the 'export' handler to figure out the namespace of the thing it's adding |
| 19:26 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah |
| 19:26 |
|
jnthn |
But unless it lives in that namespace...that's awkward |
| 19:26 |
|
pmichaud |
right |
| 19:26 |
|
pmichaud |
I feel more comfortable if the loadinit block lives in its own namespace |
| 19:26 |
|
jnthn |
Plus we actually for "our" scoped methods will want a namespace entry too. |
| 19:27 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah |
| 19:27 |
|
pmichaud |
we just invoke it from the other namespace's .loadinit |
| 19:27 |
|
jnthn |
Well, the block that loadinit calls, but yes. |
| 19:27 |
|
pmichaud |
to preserve the order-of-initialization |
| 19:27 |
|
jnthn |
Yup, which was the original problem I was trying to solve. :-) |
| 19:27 |
|
pmichaud |
anyway, try that. should be pretty straightforward :-) |
| 19:28 |
|
jnthn |
Aye |
| 19:28 |
|
jnthn |
ETOOMANYWRONGWAYSTODOIT |
| 19:28 |
|
pmichaud |
might be a good argument to be made that the P::C::Package should generate its own PAST::Block |
| 19:28 |
|
pmichaud |
(that is then attached to the .loadinit of the outer package) |
| 19:28 |
|
pmichaud |
er, it's own *initializing* PAST::Block |
| 19:28 |
|
jnthn |
s/attached to/called by/ but yes. |
| 19:29 |
|
pmichaud |
right, called by |
| 19:29 |
|
pmichaud |
anyway, we both know what we're saying, even if we don't know the right way to say it :) |
| 19:29 |
|
jnthn |
OK, I'll take a crack at doing it that way. |
| 19:29 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 19:29 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah :-) |
| 19:29 |
|
jnthn |
This one mighta been easier with a whiteboard. :-) |
| 19:31 |
|
pmichaud |
I am *sooooo* glad I chose to rewrite the regex engine than to try to extend PGE. r29067 would've been just about impossible in PGE (to preserve backwards compat) |
| 19:32 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 19:32 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm also glad I chose to basically ignore :panic and :keepall :-) |
| 19:32 |
|
jnthn |
heh, since they just got ripped out ;-) |
| 19:32 |
|
pmichaud |
exactly. laziness ftw |
| 19:32 |
|
pmichaud |
so far I've had good wins with "laziness" and "hubris" lately :) |
| 19:33 |
|
jnthn |
Clearly, they're the way to go. :-) |
| 19:35 |
|
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rfordinal left #perl6 |
| 19:37 |
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FCO joined #perl6 |
| 19:39 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: yay, I think it works. :-) |
| 19:42 |
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nihiliad joined #perl6 |
| 19:44 |
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nihiliad joined #perl6 |
| 19:48 |
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[synth] joined #perl6 |
| 19:48 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Something perhaps rw-ish goes awry in gcd. |
| 19:53 |
|
colomon |
what's it doing? |
| 19:54 |
|
colomon |
(is %= really already working?) |
| 19:58 |
|
jnthn |
I'm not sure... |
| 19:58 |
|
jnthn |
However, I get weird fail in 06-op-inplace.t too |
| 19:59 |
|
jnthn |
So I'm kinda wondering if something might be awry there. |
| 19:59 |
|
jnthn |
Seems the common thread here, but I'm not convinced it's not just coincidence. |
| 19:59 |
|
jnthn |
Looking. |
| 20:02 |
|
|
IllvilJa joined #perl6 |
| 20:02 |
|
IllvilJa |
rakudo: say 'Hello world!' |
| 20:02 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Hello world! |
| 20:02 |
|
IllvilJa |
It worked! :-) |
| 20:02 |
|
pmichaud |
it's possible/likely that the automatically generated routine for %= (and all of the 'x=' metaops) doesn't have quite the right signature characteristics |
| 20:03 |
|
pmichaud |
because that code was done before signatures were in place |
| 20:03 |
|
jnthn |
Ah. |
| 20:03 |
|
pmichaud |
src/builtins/assign.pir:46 |
| 20:03 |
|
pmichaud |
(maybe) |
| 20:04 |
|
pmichaud |
still, it's been working before now... not sure what would've changed |
| 20:04 |
|
pmichaud |
oh, yes I am |
| 20:04 |
|
pmichaud |
$P0 = get_global $S0 |
| 20:04 |
|
pmichaud |
probably wrong |
| 20:04 |
|
pmichaud |
might need to be find_name |
| 20:04 |
|
pmichaud |
either that or the operators defined in Rat.pm etc. need to be declared 'our' |
| 20:05 |
|
pmichaud |
as 'my' doesn't cut it yet. |
| 20:05 |
|
pmichaud |
(src/builtins/assign.pir:52) |
| 20:05 |
|
jnthn |
I've declared 'em our, I thought. Coulda missed some though. |
| 20:09 |
|
colomon |
huh. I just built latest ng, and 5/2 is a Num? |
| 20:09 |
|
pmichaud |
colomon: we're still working on some of those pieces. |
| 20:09 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: oh, let me push the Rat addition, so you cna see the issues. |
| 20:10 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: I'm cooking at the moment, so a bit distracted |
| 20:10 |
|
jnthn |
colomon: Feel free to investigate now. |
| 20:11 |
|
pmichaud |
std: 5/2.0 |
| 20:11 |
|
p6eval |
std 29073: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mConfused at /tmp/MYPRWOAoz5 line 1:------> 5/2.⏏0 expecting any of: integer postfix_prefix_meta_operatorFAILED 00:01 102m |
| 20:11 |
|
pmichaud |
okay. |
| 20:11 |
|
jnthn |
std: 5 / 2.0 |
| 20:11 |
|
p6eval |
std 29073: ok 00:02 100m |
| 20:11 |
|
jnthn |
heh |
| 20:11 |
|
pmichaud |
right |
| 20:11 |
|
jnthn |
That'll catch somebody. |
| 20:11 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 20:11 |
|
pmichaud |
was just checking to make sure my guess matched std's |
| 20:12 |
|
pmichaud |
(it did) |
| 20:13 |
|
jnthn |
I'm not entirely sure I like that, but I agree we match STD. :-) |
| 20:13 |
|
|
justatheory joined #perl6 |
| 20:14 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: my $o = rand for ^3; say $o |
| 20:14 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Lexical '$o' not foundin Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324) |
| 20:14 |
|
colomon |
jnthn: thanks. I will be traveling in a moment, but I'll try to take a look. |
| 20:15 |
|
jnthn |
kk |
| 20:15 |
|
KyleHa |
Sometimes I feel like I'm poking the soft spot on baby Rakudo's head. |
| 20:20 |
|
pmichaud |
KyleHa: that one gets fixed in ng also :) |
| 20:20 |
|
pmichaud |
as in, it'll "just work" when we have 'for' implemented. |
| 20:20 |
|
KyleHa |
pmichaud: Yay! |
| 20:20 |
|
jnthn |
Oh, nice. |
| 20:21 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: When do you expect we'll have for back in, btw? |
| 20:21 |
|
pmichaud |
tonight or tomorrow, likely |
| 20:21 |
|
jnthn |
(I know it needs map, which in turn needs effort... :-)) |
| 20:21 |
|
jnthn |
Does that imply lazy gather/take too? :-) |
| 20:21 |
|
pmichaud |
oh, statement_mod_loop:for can probably go in before map |
| 20:21 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm not sure we have to make it use 'map |
| 20:21 |
|
jnthn |
Ah, OK, just equivalent semantics. |
| 20:21 |
|
pmichaud |
right |
| 20:22 |
|
pmichaud |
statement_control:for will likely use 'map' |
| 20:22 |
|
jnthn |
ah, that's the one i was more asking after. :-) |
| 20:22 |
|
pmichaud |
at the moment I'm trying to figure out how to bring NQP into the <abc=def> new world |
| 20:28 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: What's the difficulty? |
| 20:28 |
|
jnthn |
Or is it just a case of writing the code? |
| 20:29 |
|
jnthn |
Or a case of handling the <foo=.bar> case? |
| 20:29 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29074 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 66622: statement mod "for" makes no implicit block |
| 20:29 |
|
pmichaud |
several items |
| 20:29 |
|
pmichaud |
since NQP and the regex engine are self hosted, the two grammars aren't 100% compatible |
| 20:29 |
|
pmichaud |
so using the old engine to compile a grammar with the new semantics doesn't quite work |
| 20:29 |
|
pmichaud |
so I have to get <abc=.def> to work first |
| 20:29 |
|
pmichaud |
then bootstrap |
| 20:30 |
|
pmichaud |
and then I can enable <abc=def> |
| 20:30 |
|
pmichaud |
with its new semantics |
| 20:30 |
|
jnthn |
oh! |
| 20:30 |
|
pmichaud |
so, all of the existing instances of <abc=def> have to be converted to <abc=.def> |
| 20:30 |
|
pmichaud |
then recompile |
| 20:30 |
|
pmichaud |
and re-bootstrap |
| 20:30 |
|
pmichaud |
then I can work on getting the new meaning of <abc=def> in place |
| 20:31 |
|
pmichaud |
but this means that <OPER=infix=infix> also has to work for <OPER=infix=.infix> |
| 20:31 |
|
pmichaud |
so it just gets a bit dicey |
| 20:31 |
|
pmichaud |
the new implementation will be much cleaner with the new semantics; it's just getting from here to there that is tricky |
| 20:32 |
|
pmichaud |
time to pick up kid -- bbi30 |
| 20:34 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 20:35 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: class A { enum B <c d e>; ::c = B::c }; say A::c |
| 20:35 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: ( no output ) |
| 20:39 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: class A { constant f = 3; }; say A::f |
| 20:39 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: ( no output ) |
| 20:39 |
|
KyleHa |
Is that supposed to output '3', or just have a better error message? |
| 20:43 |
|
jnthn |
iirc, constants are now package scoped (Rakudo didn't catch up with that yet). |
| 20:43 |
|
jnthn |
So I'd expect it to work. |
| 20:43 |
|
jnthn |
nom - bbs |
| 20:43 |
|
KyleHa |
OK, thanks. |
| 20:48 |
|
TimToady |
alternately, we need to make A::f able to pull something out of A's lexical scope somehow; the 'ourness' of constants feels like a kludge |
| 20:59 |
|
|
oZ] joined #perl6 |
| 21:00 |
|
TimToady |
perhaps there's some relationship between packages and exportable lists |
| 21:01 |
|
TimToady |
perhaps the package is the :ALL list |
| 21:02 |
|
TimToady |
I guess that's not very different from saying constants are "our" though |
| 21:03 |
|
jnthn |
TimToady: Why did constants become our scoped? |
| 21:03 |
|
TimToady |
so that the A::b notation would find them |
| 21:03 |
|
jnthn |
Ah, ok |
| 21:03 |
|
TimToady |
otherwise Bool::True is hidden |
| 21:03 |
|
jnthn |
Well, to the extent that Bool::True is a constant... :) |
| 21:04 |
|
* jnthn |
has given up on trying to work out what Bool::True is. |
| 21:04 |
|
TimToady |
what I tell you three times is a constant? |
| 21:04 |
|
jnthn |
We've been through enum element and role so far, so I guess constant is fine too. ;-) |
| 21:05 |
|
TimToady |
enums are considered constants, among other things... |
| 21:05 |
|
jnthn |
.oO( one other thing is "mind-bending to implement" :-) ) |
| 21:05 |
|
jnthn |
Anyway, I guess in that case, yes we'd like Bool::True to be visible. |
| 21:06 |
|
jnthn |
I wonder if part of the issue is that we're treating constant as a scope declarator. |
| 21:06 |
|
jnthn |
So we thus don't have the option or "our constant" or "my constant" |
| 21:06 |
|
TimToady |
they could be considered to be in the sub slot instead |
| 21:07 |
|
TimToady |
or equiv to the subset declarator |
| 21:07 |
|
jnthn |
The latter is more along the lines of what I was pondering. |
| 21:07 |
|
jnthn |
Not quite sure what the fallout of making them be that way is though. |
| 21:07 |
|
TimToady |
well, all constants are just subsets of one value |
| 21:07 |
|
pmichaud |
back |
| 21:08 |
|
jnthn |
oh hai |
| 21:08 |
|
pmichaud |
one that that hasn't been constant is our notion of constant :-) |
| 21:08 |
|
|
quietfanatic joined #perl6 |
| 21:08 |
|
TimToady |
and since subsets kinda follow class semantics, they'd reasonably default to 'our' |
| 21:09 |
|
pmichaud |
"constants aren't, variables won't" |
| 21:09 |
|
TimToady |
it is the sun! no, it is the moon! |
| 21:09 |
|
pmichaud |
"what light through yonder window breaks?" |
| 21:09 |
|
TimToady |
must be a pretty powerful light beam to break a window... |
| 21:10 |
|
TimToady |
X-ray laser, maybe |
| 21:10 |
|
pmichaud |
nah. Windows breaks on my computer all the time. :-) |
| 21:11 |
|
TimToady |
I think we should rename Windows 7--it's an insult to all the Windows Vista users... :P |
| 21:11 |
|
jnthn |
.oO( Perl Vista ) |
| 21:11 |
|
pmichaud |
I was thinking much the same earlier today. |
| 21:11 |
|
pmichaud |
We all know that Windows 98 is better than Windows 95, so it must be *way* better than Windows 7. |
| 21:12 |
|
TimToady |
"requires Windows 98 or better..." |
| 21:12 |
|
pmichaud |
(and for folks reading the backlog -- yes, I fully recognize that the 6 > 5 has a different flavor; I'm not intending to be sarcastic here, just humorous.) |
| 21:12 |
|
[particle] |
were you discussing the defenestration of luminescence again? |
| 21:13 |
|
* PerlJam |
quotes pmichaud out of context |
| 21:13 |
|
pmichaud |
.oO( is there any other way I get quoted? ) |
| 21:14 |
|
TimToady |
obviously, 6 is only 20% better than 5 |
| 21:14 |
|
[particle] |
no way is 5 more than 80% of 6, i don't care what you say. |
| 21:14 |
|
PerlJam |
TimToady: makes sense. Improvement increments asymptotically approach 0% over time. |
| 21:14 |
|
|
masak joined #perl6 |
| 21:15 |
|
pmichaud |
void qq{pmichaud}; # quoting pmichaud out of context |
| 21:15 |
|
TimToady |
that's why the bell labs folks had to go all the way from System V to Plan 9 |
| 21:15 |
|
masak |
Perl 9 |
| 21:16 |
|
PerlJam |
TimToady: so, Perl 5 is like AT&T Unix, and Perl 6 is like BSD Unix? |
| 21:16 |
|
PerlJam |
(complete non sequitur, but that's just how the brain (okay, *my* brain) works some times) |
| 21:16 |
|
TimToady |
well, that would be one way to reframe it... |
| 21:17 |
|
* pmichaud |
wonders if Camelia can grow horns. |
| 21:17 |
|
PerlJam |
and a tail |
| 21:17 |
|
chromatic |
Do you really want a slake moth as your language mascot? |
| 21:17 |
|
TimToady |
though it would upset both the people who prefer BSD and Perl 5, as well as the people who prefer SysV and Perl 6, if there are any |
| 21:17 |
|
masak |
the Norwegian horntail...? |
| 21:18 |
|
TimToady |
maybe we should call in Perlaris, and rename Rakudo * to North * |
| 21:19 |
|
[particle] |
i wonder if rakudo * will mark the completion of the second 80% of perl 6 |
| 21:19 |
|
PerlJam |
All the wrong connotations at once! |
| 21:19 |
|
Tene |
Maybe just change the vowel. Parl. |
| 21:19 |
|
masak |
Purl. |
| 21:19 |
|
* masak |
shudders |
| 21:19 |
|
pmichaud |
Tene: *Now* you're talking! |
| 21:19 |
|
PerlJam |
Tene: and huffmanize it: P |
| 21:19 |
|
jnthn |
masak: No no no too many bad connotations! |
| 21:19 |
|
TimToady |
PTSD |
| 21:19 |
|
masak |
PTSD 6. |
| 21:20 |
|
[particle] |
the S is for 6. |
| 21:20 |
|
TimToady |
Maybe we should rename Perl Six to Perl Sex. |
| 21:20 |
|
masak |
I don't see a problem with that. |
| 21:20 |
|
PerlJam |
Perl does already power a porn site |
| 21:21 |
|
Tene |
We'd need to rename the operators, though. |
| 21:21 |
|
pmichaud |
The MooseX folks might protest. |
| 21:21 |
|
TimToady |
but it's only powered by Perl Vibe |
| 21:21 |
|
PerlJam |
Tene: we already have a goatse op ! |
| 21:23 |
|
[particle] |
the grammar is named fine. |
| 21:27 |
|
masak |
TimToady: can you reframe my pangs of regret over :keepall joining :panic? |
| 21:27 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: did you have a usecase for it? |
| 21:27 |
|
masak |
yes. even the spec itself did. |
| 21:28 |
|
pmichaud |
oh, we already know of use cases. |
| 21:28 |
|
TimToady |
we just don't want to implement it |
| 21:28 |
|
pmichaud |
+1 |
| 21:28 |
|
masak |
'for forcing a grammar that throws away whitespace and comments to keep them instead' |
| 21:28 |
|
PerlJam |
"forcing"? that doesn't sound very perlish at all. |
| 21:28 |
|
masak |
how is that done in a post-:keepall world? |
| 21:28 |
|
pmichaud |
I think we look at :keepall as a post-6.0.0 feature |
| 21:28 |
|
TimToady |
turns out, however, that .caps and .chunks cover much the same ground |
| 21:29 |
|
pmichaud |
indeed, they do! |
| 21:29 |
|
masak |
hokay. I like that answer. |
| 21:29 |
|
sjohnson |
y0 |
| 21:29 |
|
masak |
sjohnson! \o/ |
| 21:29 |
|
pmichaud |
afk for a bit -- another kid to retrieve |
| 21:30 |
|
TimToady |
eventually they run out |
| 21:30 |
|
sjohnson |
（´ー｀ ） |
| 21:30 |
|
[particle] |
you need a leash! |
| 21:30 |
|
PerlJam |
[particle]: they'd just chew through it |
| 21:30 |
|
pmichaud |
it will likely be at least another 11 years or so before our kids run out :) |
| 21:30 |
|
|
rgrau joined #perl6 |
| 21:33 |
|
masak |
I need to write a cranky editorial about the absurdity of Perl 6 having "missed the boat." |
| 21:33 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: heh! |
| 21:33 |
|
masak |
man, I love that sentence! |
| 21:34 |
|
masak |
it's often spouted on Twitter by scantily-clad beautiful women. |
| 21:34 |
|
Su-Shee |
missed _what_ boat? |
| 21:34 |
|
masak |
I think there's some conditioning going on here. |
| 21:34 |
|
[particle] |
perl 6 is taking the hoverboard instead |
| 21:34 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: exactly. there is no boat. |
| 21:34 |
|
PerlJam |
Su-Shee: the USS Titanic. |
| 21:34 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: that's what the cranky editorial eventually said. |
| 21:34 |
|
Su-Shee |
masak: are you really going to bother? |
| 21:35 |
|
masak |
and then it cut the wires holding the elevator and zoomed up the shaft, holding Trinity in one arm. |
| 21:35 |
|
PerlJam |
masak++ lol |
| 21:35 |
|
|
TiMBuS joined #perl6 |
| 21:35 |
|
masak |
(I know that movie far to well.) |
| 21:35 |
|
masak |
too bad they never made any sequels. |
| 21:36 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: bother what? writing cranky editorials? no. |
| 21:36 |
|
|
Wolfman2000 joined #perl6 |
| 21:37 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
afternoon |
| 21:37 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: I'm just waiting for the day when someone releases a you tube video of some actors doing things they never did in real life based on samplings from other movies and it looks *real* |
| 21:37 |
|
PerlJam |
masak: that day is nigh upon us I expect |
| 21:37 |
|
masak |
Su-Shee: it wasn't I who said that sentence, it was 'frostyamy', a dark-haired 20-spmething wearing but a necklace. |
| 21:37 |
|
masak |
s/spmething/something/, though an oddly appropriate misspelling. |
| 21:38 |
|
japhb |
nqp: sub foo () { return 0 if 0; return 1; }; say(foo()); |
| 21:38 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1current instr.: 'parrot;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1630 (src/Regex/Cursor-builtins.pir:179) |
| 21:38 |
|
japhb |
"Kaboom, Kaboom!" |
| 21:38 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: \o |
| 21:38 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: enum A <b c>; say A.c; say 'alive' |
| 21:38 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: update since you were asleep. I have...a better idea of what went wrong with my pastebin planning the past week. It wasn't so much the database as it was my poor attempts at understanding DBIC docs. |
| 21:39 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: ( no output ) |
| 21:39 |
|
masak |
I never sleep. I 'regenerate'. |
| 21:39 |
|
* jnthn |
finally thinks he's worked out why Rat is broken... |
| 21:40 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: that sounds good. I'll try to do some pastebin work too now. |
| 21:41 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29075 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Label test for RT 66636: package-scoped constant |
| 21:43 |
|
KyleHa |
Is that A.c call on the enum A supposed to work? |
| 21:45 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
rakudo: enum A<b c>; say A::c; say 'alive'; |
| 21:45 |
|
masak |
KyleHa: I think it's A::c, as Wolfman2000 has it. |
| 21:45 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: ( no output ) |
| 21:45 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
I think rakudo hates enums |
| 21:45 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: no, it's just p6eval being lazy. |
| 21:45 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: Rakudo used to hate enums, though. |
| 21:45 |
|
KyleHa |
masak: So is A.c expected to die? |
| 21:46 |
|
masak |
KyleHa: I think so. there's no method .c |
| 21:46 |
|
KyleHa |
Good enough for me. |
| 21:46 |
|
masak |
just a name A::c in the A package. |
| 21:47 |
|
|
Exodist joined #perl6 |
| 21:50 |
|
|
M_o_C joined #perl6 |
| 21:53 |
|
|
M_o_C joined #perl6 |
| 21:55 |
|
|
M_o_C joined #perl6 |
| 21:55 |
|
|
justatheory joined #perl6 |
| 21:55 |
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|
fax joined #perl6 |
| 21:56 |
|
masak |
priceless. fellow enters #perl (freenode) and asks the people there to help him finish a conversion of a Perl script to Python. the people there freeze him out, and he leaves dejected. his last words: "I gues they were right about wht they said about perl... it really is a shitty community" |
| 21:56 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29076 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 66648: acessing enum element as method |
| 21:56 |
|
masak |
naturally, I chatted him up afterwards. :) |
| 21:56 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: ...wow |
| 21:56 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
can't say I fully understand what is meant by freezing out, but...still |
| 21:57 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: they didn't actually do much. they suggested he ask his python question on #metallica. |
| 21:57 |
|
masak |
whatever that means. I don't understand the jokes on #perl. |
| 21:58 |
|
masak |
they also asked him, sarcastically, to be more specific about his issue. |
| 21:58 |
|
jnthn |
I really don't get that. Perl rocks far more than Python. ;-) |
| 21:58 |
|
|
pnate2 joined #perl6 |
| 21:58 |
|
jnthn |
#perl sounds like an...odd...place. :-) |
| 22:01 |
|
masak |
yes. I don't know why people prefer such an atmosphere. maybe it's a hormone thing. |
| 22:01 |
|
chromatic |
Remember that the first wave of Perl adoption was system administrators. |
| 22:02 |
|
Tene |
masak: it was meant as a demonstration of how #perl isn't the right place to be asking python questions... no more appropriate than #metallica. |
| 22:03 |
|
masak |
Tene: ah. |
| 22:04 |
|
KyleHa |
I thought it meant the band would be more familiar with snakes than programmers. |
| 22:05 |
|
masak |
the person in question appears a bit untrained in asking smart questions. not that that makes it any more motivated to shun him. |
| 22:06 |
|
Tene |
I didn't see it as shunning. The response I saw was "We're not going to write python code for you, and it's a bit silly of you to ask. If you want some Perl help from us, go ahead and tell us what you want." |
| 22:06 |
|
Tene |
Which seems completely reasonable to me. |
| 22:07 |
|
Tene |
Maybe I've got whatever #perl has, though. :) |
| 22:09 |
|
masak |
Tene: I didn't react until the fellow left with a disappointed message. |
| 22:09 |
|
masak |
I think I'm extra sensitive to sentences containing 'community' right now. :) |
| 22:09 |
|
Tene |
:) |
| 22:11 |
|
|
pnate joined #perl6 |
| 22:12 |
|
|
zamolxes joined #perl6 |
| 22:15 |
|
* jnthn |
cries |
| 22:16 |
|
jnthn |
*sigh* |
| 22:16 |
|
jnthn |
I hope the bug I just found ain't what I think it is. |
| 22:16 |
|
Tene |
What's that? The ng branch is too stressful? You want me to delete it for you? |
| 22:16 |
|
masak |
Tene: last time I checked, that's not how you reduce someone's stress. :P |
| 22:16 |
|
KyleHa |
jnthn: It's just a flesh wound! |
| 22:16 |
|
jnthn |
Tene: It's git, do what you like. :-P |
| 22:17 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: ping |
| 22:18 |
|
chromatic |
pong, jnthn |
| 22:18 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: Do you have vague recollections of an IMCC optimizer issue a while back, where something of the form "foo"() could end up getting mapped directly to a constant PMC lookup? |
| 22:19 |
|
jnthn |
If so - did the code that did this get ripped out, or was an alternative "if there's a lexical of the same name" rule added? |
| 22:19 |
|
jnthn |
I think it's just bitten me again in a more subtle case. :-( |
| 22:19 |
|
chromatic |
That sounds familiar, but I can't recall any details at the moment. |
| 22:20 |
|
jnthn |
OK. |
| 22:20 |
|
jnthn |
I can try and reduce this to something small. |
| 22:20 |
|
chromatic |
That could be because I fixed it and remember how I fixed it, or because I think I know how to fix it. |
| 22:20 |
|
chromatic |
I'm happy to fix any test case you can provide, though. |
| 22:20 |
|
jnthn |
I'm pretty sure you fixed something along these lines. |
| 22:21 |
|
chromatic |
That sounds like something I would do. |
| 22:21 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 22:21 |
|
chromatic |
I keep meaning to get a Poor Impulse Control tattoo on my hand to remind me never to volunteer to fix something like IMCC again. |
| 22:21 |
|
masak |
in the end, I couldn't help the fellow at all. (it was a Python problem above my abilities.) but I sent him off to #python, hugged him and sent my best wishes from the Perl community. :D he seemed very pleased with this. |
| 22:21 |
|
chromatic |
Now I'm one more oblique SF reference away from a hat trick. |
| 22:22 |
|
jnthn |
I've been thinking "oh no, what on earth is wrong with MMD", whereas it seems we're not entering the dispatcher at all... |
| 22:22 |
|
KyleHa |
Hey, chromatic, you tried Snow Crash? |
| 22:23 |
|
chromatic |
I reviewed it, years ago. |
| 22:28 |
|
|
colomon joined #perl6 |
| 22:30 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: say 1.WHAT |
| 22:30 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Int() |
| 22:30 |
|
masak |
rakudo: say i.WHAT |
| 22:30 |
|
KyleHa |
rakudo: Int.WHAT = Str; say 1.WHAT; |
| 22:31 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Could not find non-existent sub iin Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324) |
| 22:31 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo d04cce: Str() |
| 22:31 |
|
jnthn |
KyleHa: EWWW. |
| 22:31 |
|
KyleHa |
jnthn: What should it do? |
| 22:31 |
|
jnthn |
KyleHa: ng does: |
| 22:31 |
|
jnthn |
> Int.WHAT = Str; say 1.WHAT; |
| 22:31 |
|
jnthn |
Cannot assign to readonly value |
| 22:31 |
|
lambdabot |
<no location info>: parse error on input `=' |
| 22:32 |
|
KyleHa |
That's what I was thinking too. |
| 22:32 |
|
jnthn |
We tend to get such things less wrong in ng. :-) |
| 22:32 |
|
|
Su-Shee left #perl6 |
| 22:34 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: Ah, I think the problem basically boils down to "if the target sub is marked :anon, the optimization shouldn't apply, since a lookup of it through the namespace would not work". I can probably write a small code example for that, but I may be able to write a patch too... |
| 22:37 |
|
|
PacoLinux joined #perl6 |
| 22:38 |
|
chromatic |
I'll take the test. I'm sure you'd rather work on Rakudo than IMCC, and I don't mind doing the IMCC part with a test. |
| 22:38 |
|
chromatic |
We don't want to blow your instruction cache OR your data cache here. |
| 22:39 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: Heh. OK, looking at IMCC the problem is actually not so much writing the patch, but I can't actually find where on earth that opt happens. :-) |
| 22:39 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: Will try and hack up some short PIR example. |
| 22:39 |
|
chromatic |
That's usually the case. |
| 22:40 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29077 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 70237: assignment to .WHAT dies |
| 22:41 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: half an hour's work. do you want to see my (modest) progress? |
| 22:41 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: sure |
| 22:41 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: You want a Trac ticket, or is a nopaste OK? |
| 22:41 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: http://feather.perl6.nl:8110/cgi-bin/show?id=314 |
| 22:42 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: http://gist.github.com/234236 is the nopaste is enough |
| 22:42 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...farther than me |
| 22:42 |
|
masak |
:) |
| 22:42 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: of course, I started in the wrong end. |
| 22:42 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
then again, we're at different points |
| 22:42 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: no telling if I started on teh right end or not. I got hung up. |
| 22:42 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: *all* you can do at this point is look at that paste. :P |
| 22:42 |
|
* masak |
likes starting in the wrong end |
| 22:43 |
|
masak |
now I have something do blog about today |
| 22:43 |
|
masak |
and, uh, I need to hurry! :) |
| 22:43 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
then hurry away |
| 22:43 |
|
* masak |
hurries |
| 22:43 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: I realize that we could actually get to the point of saying "well hey, let's rip the opt out alltogether, since you could still do this if it was non-anon". For now, a more convervative "look for the :anon flag and don't apply the opt in that case" will unblock me. |
| 22:44 |
|
chromatic |
jnthn, that should work. I'll try to have it in the next 24 hours. |
| 22:44 |
|
pmichaud |
back for a bit |
| 22:45 |
|
chromatic |
Fixing the optimization the right way probably requires pirc. |
| 22:45 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: OK, great, thanks. :-) |
| 22:45 |
|
jnthn |
chromatic: I've added to the gist another amusing example in which we can call by name an anonymous sub. :-) |
| 22:46 |
|
pmichaud |
22:34 <jnthn> chromatic: Ah, I think the problem basically boils down to "if the target sub is marked :anon, the optimization shouldn't apply, since a lookup of it through the namespace would not work". I can probably write a small code example for that, but I may be able to write a patch too... |
| 22:46 |
|
pmichaud |
that answer feels very wrong |
| 22:46 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Well, the existence of the optimization at all could well be argued to be wrong... |
| 22:46 |
|
pmichaud |
it could be, yes. But I'm not sure it is (more) |
| 22:47 |
|
pmichaud |
the "optimization" is the only way to get to a :anon sub without using a constant lookup |
| 22:47 |
|
pmichaud |
i.e., for a long time, parrot's model was that one would get to an anon sub by name |
| 22:47 |
|
jnthn |
I'm not quite sure relying on a mis-applied optimization for a feature is a great plan... :-S |
| 22:48 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: You can do it by subid now, no? |
| 22:48 |
|
pmichaud |
put another way, assuming that 'foo'(3) always goes through the namespace isn't/hasn't been Parrot's model. |
| 22:48 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: you can do it by subid by doing a constant lookup, yes. |
| 22:48 |
|
|
fax joined #perl6 |
| 22:48 |
|
pmichaud |
my point is that the change you're proposing almost absolutely requires a deprecation cycle |
| 22:49 |
|
pmichaud |
because the classic way to get to anonymous subs is through the "optimization" |
| 22:49 |
|
jnthn |
Ouch. |
| 22:49 |
|
pmichaud |
(it was the only way to do it before we had subid) |
| 22:49 |
|
jnthn |
*sigh* |
| 22:49 |
|
jnthn |
We've had subid for quite a while though. But yes, people may have come to rely on it. |
| 22:49 |
|
chromatic |
Let's see what the change breaks in Parrot's test suite first. |
| 22:50 |
|
pmichaud |
chromatic: that's reasonable, although I'm sure I've written a fair bit of code that uses :anon subs in exactly this way. |
| 22:50 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Turns out whipping setting .name out of routine_def fixes the problem (but of course, causes other ones). |
| 22:51 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I'm not quite sure what the next most desirable workaround is. |
| 22:51 |
|
pmichaud |
a flag on a sub that says "never short circuit to me" ? |
| 22:52 |
|
pmichaud |
or perhaps the existence of some other flag can indicate that |
| 22:52 |
|
jnthn |
I had thought :anon was such a flag, but now you've made me think again on that. |
| 22:52 |
|
pmichaud |
no, :anon is definitely *not* that flag :) |
| 22:52 |
|
pmichaud |
at least, not historically |
| 22:53 |
|
jnthn |
IMHO, the current semantics should be deprecated. But I can understand that they may need a deprecation cycle. |
| 22:54 |
|
pmichaud |
we're clearly talking subs here, not methods? |
| 22:54 |
|
jnthn |
Yes. |
| 22:54 |
|
pmichaud |
exported or no? |
| 22:54 |
|
pmichaud |
i.e., with the & sigil or no? |
| 22:54 |
|
jnthn |
The problem (and I went tracing through the multi-dispatcher before realizing this) is that we construct and install a Perl6MultiSub in &infix:<+> |
| 22:55 |
|
jnthn |
But then within core, calls to that are getting re-written to the top candidate. |
| 22:55 |
|
jnthn |
So we never - within core - enter the multi-dispatcher. |
| 22:55 |
|
jnthn |
It's actually not a problem outside of core, because it's a separate compilation unit. |
| 22:55 |
|
pmichaud |
ah, and they're being rewritten because the subs don't have :multi |
| 22:55 |
|
pmichaud |
the existence of :multi also disables the optimization, fwiw |
| 22:56 |
|
jnthn |
I guess maybe that woulda suppressed it too... |
| 22:56 |
|
jnthn |
hmm |
| 22:56 |
|
jnthn |
Not really sure I want to go that way though. |
| 22:57 |
|
jnthn |
But it explains why we've not hit this before. |
| 22:57 |
|
pmichaud |
we'd also end up fixing it if we turned them into lexicals (which needs to eventually happen to), but I think it's a bit premature to be doing that |
| 22:57 |
|
pmichaud |
*too |
| 22:57 |
|
jnthn |
oh, and then they're exported? |
| 22:58 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah, I fear so. |
| 22:58 |
|
jnthn |
Does it actually have to be done like that? |
| 22:58 |
|
pmichaud |
CORE is a lexical scope, yes. |
| 22:58 |
|
pmichaud |
it's not a package. |
| 22:58 |
|
jnthn |
ew |
| 22:58 |
|
jnthn |
OK. |
| 22:59 |
|
jnthn |
Actually, though, we still need to solve the general problem, or it'll impact user's code. |
| 22:59 |
|
pmichaud |
the nicest approach going forward (from the PIR side, not necessarily IMCC) would be to have a flag that says "don't optimize calls to this sub" |
| 22:59 |
|
pmichaud |
i.e,. to take it out of consideration for the optimization |
| 22:59 |
|
pmichaud |
of course, we'd end up using that flag on basically, everything. :) |
| 23:00 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah. |
| 23:00 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: there. I'm done hurrying. :) |
| 23:00 |
|
zaslon |
lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'November 13 2009 -- crying wolf and slinging mud': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39894?from=rss |
| 23:00 |
|
pmichaud |
another way could be a pragma that turns off that particular optimization altogether in IMCC |
| 23:00 |
|
jnthn |
That could be cleaner. |
| 23:00 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
crying wolf? I don't like the sound of that |
| 23:00 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: it's about Armero, not about Web.pm :) |
| 23:00 |
|
pmichaud |
so IMCC defaults to its current behavior, but with the pragma in place it never performs the direct-call-to-sub optimization for things in the compilation unit |
| 23:00 |
|
pmichaud |
the pragma sounds bestish |
| 23:01 |
|
jnthn |
Alternatively, we teach PAST to never emit 'foo'() but always find_name... |
| 23:01 |
|
pmichaud |
I don't want to do that in PAST, though. |
| 23:01 |
|
pmichaud |
that removes a capability. |
| 23:01 |
|
jnthn |
Hm |
| 23:01 |
|
pmichaud |
We could set a flag in PAST that says to always do find_sub_not_null |
| 23:01 |
|
jnthn |
.oO( removes a bug ) |
| 23:01 |
|
jnthn |
;-) |
| 23:02 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah, we could do that but...well... |
| 23:02 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll do that if it's the best approach, but I'd prefer an imcc-level fix, since it's an imcc-level thing we're trying to address |
| 23:02 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah, agree. |
| 23:02 |
|
|
jan____ joined #perl6 |
| 23:02 |
|
jnthn |
I really, really don't want a PAST-level flag for this. |
| 23:03 |
|
jnthn |
Anyway, the upshot is that we're going to kinda block on a resolution to this. |
| 23:04 |
|
jnthn |
Whichever one we end up going for. |
| 23:04 |
|
pmichaud |
chromatic: any opinions about an imcc pragma to disable this optimization versus other approaches? |
| 23:05 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: I'm thinking about going to bed, in an unexpected homage to sane sleep times. |
| 23:05 |
|
pmichaud |
(I have to depart in, oh, 8 mins) |
| 23:05 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: ...this is unexpected. |
| 23:05 |
|
jnthn |
masak: huh |
| 23:05 |
|
masak |
:) |
| 23:05 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Who'm I gonna talk linguistics with at 3am now? :-P |
| 23:05 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
jnthn: 3 am which time zone? |
| 23:05 |
|
masak |
that was an awesome conversation. :) |
| 23:06 |
|
jnthn |
Wolfman2000: Mine. |
| 23:06 |
|
masak |
jnthn and I are in GMT+1. |
| 23:06 |
|
jnthn |
masak++ # better answer than mine :-) |
| 23:06 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
While I'm stuck in...I think it's GMT-5 or something along those lines |
| 23:06 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
EST |
| 23:06 |
|
masak |
nod. |
| 23:06 |
|
jnthn |
What's it actually called? CET or so? |
| 23:06 |
|
jnthn |
Central European Time? |
| 23:06 |
|
masak |
aye. |
| 23:06 |
|
jnthn |
It's called that in Sweden too? :-) |
| 23:06 |
|
masak |
CET is either GMT+1 or GMT+2 depending on season. |
| 23:07 |
|
masak |
jnthn: what are you implying? :P |
| 23:07 |
|
masak |
some parts of Sweden are Central European! |
| 23:07 |
|
jnthn |
masak: That there's a disconnect between the geographical region known as "central Europe" and the timezone. :-) |
| 23:07 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: I have to leave shortly -- can I leave it to you and chromatic to work out the details? If an imcc-level flag isn't likely, I'll see about a PAST fix of some sort. |
| 23:08 |
|
jnthn |
I guess there's more than one definition of Central Europe though :-) |
| 23:08 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Can do. :-) |
| 23:08 |
|
pmichaud |
or you could just emit bogus subnames |
| 23:08 |
|
masak |
jnthn: given how the time zones span the Earth, I think a horizontal interpretation of Central is in order in this case. |
| 23:08 |
|
pmichaud |
and use :nsentry() |
| 23:09 |
|
masak |
s/a horizontal/an East-West/ |
| 23:09 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Gah, you just go on making good points, don't you. :-) |
| 23:09 |
|
masak |
that's one of my character flaws. |
| 23:09 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: Emitting empty subnames was fail, but yeah..hmm. |
| 23:09 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: It's like, after midnight here, so I'll probably wait and see if a fix emerges in the near future. |
| 23:10 |
|
jnthn |
It's not like I'm going to get all that much more doen. |
| 23:10 |
|
jnthn |
*done |
| 23:10 |
|
masak |
jnthn: what have you done? will you blog? |
| 23:10 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: that works for me |
| 23:10 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: are you planning to be around over the weekend? |
| 23:10 |
|
* masak |
hasn't been keeping up |
| 23:11 |
|
jnthn |
masak: I was *hoping* to be able to blog that I've made a bunch of tests for Rat pass again, and maybe even get Complex and Num back in. |
| 23:11 |
|
pmichaud |
my schedule looks much the same as it has been -- a few hours here and there interrupted by various family-related stuff |
| 23:11 |
|
jnthn |
masak: In reality, I've spent two hours tracking down an obscure bug. :-| |
| 23:11 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Such is software dev. |
| 23:11 |
|
masak |
jnthn: I know the feeling. :/ |
| 23:11 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I'll be around. |
| 23:11 |
|
pmichaud |
okay |
| 23:11 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm gone for a while -- bbi120ish |
| 23:11 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I need to rest a bit at some point, and I need to do a little @other-job. |
| 23:11 |
|
jnthn |
But I'll be around for sure. |
| 23:12 |
|
jnthn |
masak: It's OK...I'm happy I found what's wrong. |
| 23:12 |
|
masak |
jnthn++ |
| 23:12 |
|
jnthn |
masak: Just means I'm not going to be able to write a very exciting post. |
| 23:12 |
|
masak |
jnthn: 'honesty' ge 'excitement' |
| 23:12 |
|
jnthn |
True. :-) |
| 23:13 |
|
masak |
but also 'lying' ge 'honesty', so... er... |
| 23:13 |
|
jnthn |
"Today I got the ng branch passing all tests again!" |
| 23:13 |
|
masak |
:) |
| 23:13 |
|
jnthn |
It's true. I've had it passing all the tests that it passed this morning. ;-) |
| 23:14 |
|
* jnthn |
had to look up where Armero is |
| 23:14 |
|
jnthn |
(well, click the link, anyway :-)) |
| 23:14 |
|
masak |
Colombia. |
| 23:15 |
|
jnthn |
Yes. |
| 23:15 |
|
jnthn |
Whoa. Epic disaster. |
| 23:16 |
|
jnthn |
People are weird about volcanos though. |
| 23:16 |
|
jnthn |
When I was in Italy, I went to Vesuvius, and people are still building WAY closer than is a good idea to the thing. |
| 23:16 |
|
jnthn |
Or so the vulcanologist was saying anyway. |
| 23:16 |
|
masak |
nod. |
| 23:16 |
|
jnthn |
Apparently the soil is really fertile. |
| 23:16 |
|
masak |
figures. |
| 23:17 |
|
jnthn |
Due to ash from pervious erruptions. |
| 23:17 |
|
masak |
lots of inorganic... yes. |
| 23:17 |
|
jnthn |
So it's a great place for growing grapes. |
| 23:17 |
|
jnthn |
And making wine. |
| 23:17 |
|
jnthn |
I tried some. It's good wine. But still...quite a risk living there. :-/ |
| 23:17 |
|
masak |
tradeoff. (1) make great wine (2) possibly die in volcano eruption |
| 23:18 |
|
jnthn |
Yeah |
| 23:18 |
|
jnthn |
Well, erruptions are not exactly a frequent event I guess. |
| 23:18 |
|
|
quietfanatic joined #perl6 |
| 23:18 |
|
jnthn |
Which probably makes it harder to convince people it's a problem being there... |
| 23:19 |
|
* jnthn |
gets onto the non-disaster part of masak++'s blog post :-) |
| 23:20 |
|
masak |
sometimes the non-disaster part is below the ❦ :) |
| 23:20 |
|
jnthn |
masak: I love it apart from this line: say @found[0][2]; |
| 23:20 |
|
masak |
yeah, non-ideal. |
| 23:20 |
|
masak |
feel free to make a comment about it! :) |
| 23:20 |
|
jnthn |
OK, so long as you agree it's non-ideal, I'm happy something ideal will happen in the future. :-) |
| 23:21 |
|
jnthn |
I just did. :-P |
| 23:21 |
|
jnthn |
oh, you mean on the...right... |
| 23:22 |
|
* masak |
prefers public flogging |
| 23:23 |
|
jnthn |
You've publicly flogged. Enjoy! |
| 23:23 |
|
masak |
gracias. |
| 23:23 |
|
jnthn |
Nech sa paci. |
| 23:23 |
|
jnthn |
uh |
| 23:23 |
|
masak |
the n00b from #perl is back, privmsging me! |
| 23:23 |
|
jnthn |
De nada. |
| 23:23 |
|
jnthn |
:-) |
| 23:24 |
|
jnthn |
.oO( should try and at least language match occasionally ) |
| 23:24 |
|
masak |
seems the #python people were assholes. :) |
| 23:24 |
|
jnthn |
lol |
| 23:24 |
|
jnthn |
I guess now he can take his experiences and extrapolate to "programmers" ;-) |
| 23:24 |
|
masak |
guess so. |
| 23:25 |
|
masak |
anyway, now he's asking simple Perl questions, so I can actually help him. |
| 23:25 |
|
oZ] |
Hah. |
| 23:32 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
WOOT! Finally got something I can share! |
| 23:33 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: money? :) |
| 23:33 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak, oZ], others: http://i33.tinypic.com/sq6z46.png <-- I believe I'm now able to show which pastes are recent. |
| 23:34 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: cool! |
| 23:34 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
That was what was bugging me this past week. |
| 23:34 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
Mainly due to my incompetence with DBIC |
| 23:34 |
|
masak |
recent. dang, I should add timestamps to my pastes. :) |
| 23:34 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: I have timestamps AND an expires column in minutes |
| 23:34 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
already got the query made |
| 23:34 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
and it works |
| 23:34 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000++ |
| 23:35 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...I'm still giving a thumbs down to mysql-- however. |
| 23:35 |
|
oZ] |
Wolfman2000++ |
| 23:43 |
|
diakopter |
nqp: sub a() { return 7,[4,5,6] }; say(a()) |
| 23:43 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: 2 |
| 23:43 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...and my database structure is slightly off. Figures. |
| 23:44 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...now important is annotating pastes anyway? |
| 23:44 |
|
masak |
not very. |
| 23:44 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: Usually easier to just make new pastes? |
| 23:44 |
|
diakopter |
nqp: sub a() { return 7,[4,5,6] }; say(a()[1]) |
| 23:44 |
|
p6eval |
nqp: 3 |
| 23:46 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...I have new stuff to think about then. |
| 23:47 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: we're starting from different directions in that sense too. |
| 23:48 |
|
|
hcchien joined #perl6 |
| 23:48 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: you do design-implement-design. I do implement-design-implement. :) |
| 23:48 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: I don't quite get what that means. |
| 23:49 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: I didn't phrase it too well. |
| 23:49 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: I think your design is more deliberate than mine. |
| 23:49 |
|
masak |
my design is more by-need. |
| 23:50 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: Well, I'm partly cheating by using one of my other website layouts right now. |
| 23:51 |
|
masak |
that's permissible. :) |
| 23:51 |
|
|
astrojp joined #perl6 |
| 23:54 |
|
|
astrojp left #perl6 |
| 23:57 |
|
masak |
'night, #perl6. |
| 23:57 |
|
jnthn |
night masak |
