Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-11-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 moritz_ I thought more about *why* it's not faster (and not that easy, for that matter)
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00:03 moritz_ nqp: try { say 1 }
00:03 p6eval nqp: Confused at line 1, near "try { say "␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤
00:04 jnthn ENOLISTOPS
00:04 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
00:04 ng_feed rakudo-ng: First cut at getting placeholder parameters in place. Seems to handle various cases I've tried.
00:05 jnthn (but sadly, don't know that we immediately win any more tests...)
00:06 chromatic I know I've written about that too, but mostly it comes down to marshalling and demarshalling.
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00:27 johnjohn101 so i hear that fedora 12 will have perl 6.
00:28 Tene Fedora 11 did too.
00:29 Tene yum install rakudo
00:29 Tene Fedora 12 *currently* has rakudo, btw.
00:30 Tene F12 has been released.
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00:32 johnjohn101 that's pretty easy.  d
00:32 johnjohn101 do you think it's that easy for ubuntu?
00:32 johnjohn101 i guess I could try it out
00:33 Tene It will be, once ubuntu gets rakudo packages.
00:33 Tene afaik, ubuntu currently does not ship Rakudo.
00:33 johnjohn101 when might that be?
00:33 Tene That's up to ubuntu, last I heard.
00:35 johnjohn101 is rakudo stable enough for real world?
00:35 Tene Depends on what exactly you're asking.  For many uses, no.  For some uses, yes.
00:36 Tene I use it regularly.
00:36 Tene The current plan is to release a Recommended For Use version in, I think March?  Maybe it was May?  Spring sometime.
00:36 Tene That's likely to be much more suitable.
00:37 johnjohn101 so early to mid next year.
00:37 chromatic April
00:37 Tene So I was right on average. ;)
00:37 johnjohn101 will that be the official perl 6?
00:38 Tene johnjohn101: any implementation that passes the test suite is Perl 6.  Perl 6 is defined by its test suite.
00:39 Tene Rakudo is the only real candidate these days, though, so the answer to what you probably mean is probably "yes".
00:39 johnjohn101 not that i'm having any problems with perl 5. I love it.
00:39 Tene So do most of the people working on Perl 6.
00:40 TimToady I think Perl 5 was designed by an idiot, but I'm in the minority.  :)
00:43 johnjohn101 it has some limitations. I'm getting a lot out of it for work.
00:46 perigrin TimToady: we could probably get a movement started behind that if you really *want* ... but I personally really like it.
00:48 TimToady it's not that bad, really, but still much more like the Wild West with free-range ranchers shooting at each other and at the farmers
00:49 japhb FWIW, I've heard that Tchaikovsky hated the Nutcracker Suite, which just goes to show you can never trust an artist's view of the work ...
00:51 TimToady or maybe it's a more modern era, where people think they ought to keep shooting wolves, and I'm trying to restore the ecosystem.  :)
00:52 TimToady ah well, metaphors are cheap, and the really good ones are often spectactularly wrong.
00:52 japhb A human restoring an ecosystem is a dubious proposition at best.  And I speak as the son of a man who spent his career restoring ecosystems.
00:53 TimToady Sure, but I've found that when I go a direction, I'm not usually all by myself.  :)
00:53 japhb But clearly, a quality metaphor trumps any underlying facts.  Truthiness is all we're really looking for.
00:53 japhb A pack of hungry ecosystem restorers?
00:54 quietfanatic Perl 5: "I am your father!"  Perl 6: "Noooooo!"
00:54 TimToady sounds like you've got the idea; carry on... :)
00:54 japhb quietfanatic, quite.
00:54 diakopter "that's not true!  that's impossible!!!!  [and you just severed my hand!]"
00:55 TimToady quitefanatic, quiet.
00:56 japhb Do we get to have a light saber battle now?  Because here I find myself without a good blaster to play the part of the roguish ... er ... rogue.
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01:15 sjohnson heh
01:17 jnthn Ooh...I have a flight tomorrow. I should probably go to bed at a sensible-ish time. Night all!
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01:18 sjohnson cya
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01:23 slavik define "sensible"
01:23 slavik we don't have "sensible"
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02:03 lisppaste3 mikehh pasted "rakudo fails to build with g++" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/90706
02:06 arnsholt mikehh: Why are you trying to build Rakudo with g++?
02:07 mikehh arnshoit: better diagnostics
02:07 mikehh arnshoit: stricter
02:08 arnsholt Well, g++ is stricter because of C++
02:08 arnsholt The conversion that makes g++ quit is perfectly legal C
02:08 mikehh arnshoit: and if I build parrot with g++ it automatically uses the same compiler top build rakudo
02:09 arnsholt Although gcc does emit a warning
02:10 arnsholt Hang on, you're building Rakudo against a Parrot you've built yourself?
02:18 mikehh arnshoit: I mainly work on building and testing parrot - I've done at least four builds and tests - up to fulltest with gcc and g++ I also test rakudo and partcl and others onagainst the build
02:19 arnsholt Fair 'nuff
02:20 arnsholt I think the easiest way to fix it is just to set CC by hand in the Makefile and live with it for now
02:23 mikehh It builds ok with parrot built with gcc but as I pasted it fails with parrot build with g++ - I could probably fix it
02:24 arnsholt Yeah, it's just a matter of adding explicit casts
02:25 mikehh right - although #include parrot/extend.h is needed in perl6.ops
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03:06 colomon phenny: tell sjohnson TCC LE used to be a commercial product, and I was a paying customer for 15 years or so.  (First it was called 4DOS, then 4NT, now TCC LE.) Now they are focusing on fancier windowing stuff and giving away the command shell for free.
03:06 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when sjohnson is around.
03:21 sjohnson thanks phenny
03:21 phenny sjohnson: 03:06Z <colomon> tell sjohnson TCC LE used to be a commercial product, and I was a paying customer for 15 years or so.  (First it was called 4DOS, then 4NT, now TCC LE.) Now they are focusing on fancier windowing stuff and giving away the command shell for free.
03:21 sjohnson ;)
03:21 sjohnson colomon: is there something i am missing?  a "by hand" resizing thing for the black console window would be like... the best thing ever
03:21 sjohnson maybe i'm just not doing something smart... i know cygwin's use of rxvt avoids this problem which is kinda cool
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03:28 sjohnson perhaps it's just unpossible in windows?
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04:07 diakopter sjohnson: Console2
04:10 diakopter sjohnson: http://sourceforge.net/projects/console/
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04:12 diakopter hmm, I seem to recall it having more features than this
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04:34 pugs_svn r29129 | lwall++ | [S04] as several folks have suggested, rename "blorst" to "blast"
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04:40 pugs_svn r29130 | lwall++ | [gimme5] force $<sym> to always be string for now
04:40 pugs_svn r29130 | [STD] rename 'blorst' to 'blast' so we can have phaser blasts
04:40 pugs_svn r29130 | parse +/- as part of complex numbers
04:40 pugs_svn r29130 | refactor infixish to accept [op]= and <<op>>=
04:40 pugs_svn r29130 | rename some terms to values
04:40 pugs_svn r29130 | don't parse colon as rad_number unless followed by \d
04:40 TimToady std: :
04:40 p6eval std 29128: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal use of colon as invocant marker at /tmp/9Es3kMoqBT line 1:␤------> [32m:[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:01 101m␤
04:40 TimToady std: say :
04:40 p6eval std 29128: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix : instead at /tmp/NamLvcywQh line 1:␤------> [32msay :[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:01 103m␤
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04:49 diakopter std: say:
04:49 p6eval std 29128: ok 00:01 95m␤
04:49 diakopter std: :say
04:49 p6eval std 29128: ok 00:01 99m␤
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04:51 diakopter std: http//puredanger.com/tech/2009/11/18/closures-after-all
04:51 p6eval std 29130: Undeclared routines:␤ 'closures-after-all' used at line 1␤     'http' used at line 1␤    'puredanger' used at line 1␤      'tech' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 100m␤
04:51 diakopter I mean.
04:51 diakopter http://puredanger.com/tech/2009/11/18/closures-after-all/
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05:12 pmichaud phenny: tell masak I plan to be updating spectest-results and announcements around 13h00 utc
05:12 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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05:49 diakopter all: I *highly* recommend watching this.  http://ecn.channel9.msdn.com/o9/ch9/2/7/8/5/0/5/IE9JSEngineEarlyLook_ch9.mp4  *very* interesting/exciting.
05:49 diakopter several mentions of Perl.  even.
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06:08 masak good morning, #perl6.
06:08 phenny masak: 05:12Z <pmichaud> tell masak I plan to be updating spectest-results and announcements around 13h00 utc
06:09 masak pmichaud: ok, that means I should probably release in the evening after all.
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06:15 Tene hi masak
06:15 masak o/
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06:19 masak phenny: tell moritz_ that I believe Mark Dominus wrote a "(implementing Perl in) C is not the answer" article, and that I've once read it online. with a bit of luck, I might find it, too.
06:19 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
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06:26 masak phenny: tell moritz_ http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/06/27/ctoperl.html
06:26 phenny masak: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
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07:19 Su-Shee good morning
07:19 masak o/
07:20 masak in searching for Mark Dominus's Perl-to-C article, I stumbled over this one: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2000/11/perl6rfc.html
07:20 masak now, I wasn't involved in Perl 6 at the time, but I found it interesting for historical reasons.
07:21 masak it's interesting, for example, to feel the vibes in that article that Perl 5 is translatable, and should be translated to Perl 6.
07:21 masak even in 2004/2005 when I jumped on the ship, I kept hearing fragments of this assertion.
07:22 masak today, I don't find it likely that people will make such an automatic migration on a large scale.
07:22 perigrin masak: you didn't have a talk opposite sky's PONIE talk at YAPC::EU 2003 :)
07:22 masak no, I most certainly did not. :)
07:23 masak what was that about? could you fill me in?
07:23 masak "I always said (with considerable regret) that I did not think it was useful, but that Larry might yet prove me wrong and salvage something worthwhile from the whole mess."
07:23 masak that sentence certainly came true.
07:23 masak TimToady++
07:24 perigrin I was giving a talk opposite it ... I didn't see it :)
07:24 perigrin however PONIE was the/an attempt to run Perl5 on Parrot
07:24 masak oh, ah.
07:24 masak I believe we'll make another attempt at that soon enough.
07:24 masak and by 'we', I mean 'someone else'. :)
07:25 perigrin (my first talk ever actually)
07:25 perigrin I wish them luck with that.
07:26 masak would be fun to find this sky and extract PONIE experiences from him.
07:26 perigrin sky == Artur Bergman
07:27 perigrin also Nicholas was involved at one point
07:27 masak ok.
07:27 perigrin if you google I'm sure you'll find documentation
07:27 masak oh, I recognize sky. he looks familiar.
07:29 moritz_ good morning
07:29 phenny moritz_: 06:19Z <masak> tell moritz_ that I believe Mark Dominus wrote a "(implementing Perl in) C is not the answer" article, and that I've once read it online. with a bit of luck, I might find it, too.
07:29 phenny moritz_: 06:26Z <masak> tell moritz_ http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/06/27/ctoperl.html
07:29 masak mornin'! :)
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07:44 JimmyZ_ Good afternoon :)
07:44 colomon joined #perl6
07:45 moritz_ masak: thanks for the link
07:45 masak np.
07:46 masak JimmyZ_: 下午好!
07:47 JimmyZ_ masak: 你也好
07:47 masak ^^
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07:48 masak 我真不好. I had to go look up 午 on Google Translate because I had forgotten it. :/
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07:50 JimmyZ_ masak: 临时性健忘,没有关系的
07:51 masak you're too kind. :)
07:52 masak no, the truth is that my 中文 is bit-rotting.
07:53 cls_bsd amazing I can read it w/o Google Translate :D
07:53 masak cls_bsd++
07:54 masak I'll try to remember that 性健忘 means 'amnesia'. I might need that a lot when talking to Chinese. :)
07:55 JimmyZ_ masak: 临时性-健忘
07:55 masak JimmyZ_: only if I re-learn what I've forgotten. :)
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07:57 masak '对不起... 我有一个临时性健忘...'
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07:59 JimmyZ_ masak: learning, like eating Sugarcane, that will increase your memory
08:00 JimmyZ_ masak: I don't know whether I describe it correctly. ;)
08:00 masak aye. some of the people I admire most have kept learning all through their lives.
08:00 ng_feed rakudo-ng: moritz++
08:00 ng_feed rakudo-ng: one more passing test file
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08:01 JimmyZ_ masak: review. ;)
08:02 masak I will, I will. thanks for being the cane and the carrot.
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08:03 masak 复习了复习... :)
08:04 moritz_ cane and carrot? :-)
08:04 JimmyZ_ masak: 我们把复习比喻为吃甘蔗学习法
08:04 masak moritz_: JimmyZ_ mentioned 'sugar canes'. I believe the original expression is 'the stick and the carrot' or equiv.
08:05 masak JimmyZ_: oh.
08:05 moritz_ masak: ah. In German that's (translated back) "Sugar-bread and whip" :-)
08:06 masak JimmyZ_: 'reviewing is like eating sugar cane'?
08:06 masak moritz_: we say 'carrot and whip' in Sweden. :)
08:07 JimmyZ_ masak: sugarcne is a kind of Plant.
08:07 masak nod.
08:07 JimmyZ_ masak: it is http://images.google.com/images?q=%E7%94%98%E8%94%97&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;rls=org.mozilla:zh-CN:official&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;hl=zh-CN&amp;tab=wi
08:08 masak nodnod.
08:09 JimmyZ_ masak: not like, liken
08:10 masak JimmyZ_: 'we liken learning to eating sugar cane'?
08:12 JimmyZ_ masak: something like that, just say metaphor, analogy or figure of speech in english, I think.
08:12 masak I don't think I know what it's like to eat a sugar cane.
08:12 masak I imagine it's very sweet.
08:14 JimmyZ_ masak: we study a chapter of the article and after somedays we review it and then study the next chapter.
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08:14 * beggars only that no on can really eat sugar cane
08:14 masak JimmyZ_: sounds pretty standard.
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08:15 masak JimmyZ_: is the point that you have to eat the sugar cane in small pieces?
08:15 masak JimmyZ_: or that you eat the same cane twice? :)
08:16 JimmyZ_ masak: we also eat the sugar cane and enjoy its sweet and then eat the next piece.
08:16 masak 'its sweetness'. I see.
08:16 JimmyZ_ yes
08:17 masak I will re-learn my missing 汉字, and I will savour their sweetness! :)
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08:17 JimmyZ_ masak++
08:17 JimmyZ_ and question time. http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/ng/src/core/Any-num.pm#L12
08:18 masak :)
08:18 JimmyZ_ pmichaud, it needs no box__PN, I think.
08:18 masak ah, an ng question.
08:18 masak JimmyZ_: that's not a question. :P
08:19 JimmyZ_ just a advice.
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08:19 moritz_ why not? returning a parrot int is likely to blow up all kind of things
08:19 JimmyZ_ or a suggestion?
08:19 kst joined #perl6
08:19 masak JimmyZ_: 'just advice', or 'just a suggestion'.
08:19 masak JimmyZ_: what moritz_ said. it seems reasonable to box things.
08:20 masak JimmyZ_: all HLLs will need to do that with Parrot-native values.
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08:20 JimmyZ_ pir::ceil__IN does autoboxing, IIRC.
08:20 masak wow, Any-num.pm is 太美了!
08:21 * masak looks forward to ng
08:21 moritz_ JimmyZ_: if it would, you couldn't call box__PN on it
08:21 JimmyZ_ moritz_: why http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/ng/src/core/Any-num.pm#L4 didn't use box?
08:22 moritz_ JimmyZ_: probably because the prefix:<~> does that
08:23 masak sorry, the what?
08:23 masak Any.abs doesn't use prefix:<~>...
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08:25 JimmyZ_ moritz_, pir::op does the box op, use pir:box means that it does the box twice.
08:26 JimmyZ_ IIRC, it somebody make the misstake. and pmichaud pointed out it.
08:26 JimmyZ_ s/make/makes/
08:26 JimmyZ_ oh
08:26 JimmyZ_ maked
08:27 masak made. :)
08:27 JimmyZ_ oh :( why I had been using it for ten years along and it's still wrong.
08:28 masak English is a bitch.
08:28 masak doesn't have thousands of individual symbols that you have to learn, though.
08:32 JimmyZ_ ;)
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08:46 mathw Morning
08:47 masak o/
08:47 masak http://chris.prather.org/what-stops-me-from-using-perl-6-today.html # a nice read
08:47 masak my favourite sentence: "While Perl6 may have more polish than I expected, and is a project that is *well* on it's [sic] way to being complete, it lacks some fundamental things I love about Perl5."
08:48 spinclad like all of CPAN...
08:49 masak that's his next sentence. :)
08:49 mathw o/ masak
08:50 mathw the interesting thing with these people is seeing if there's anything they miss that we don't know about
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08:51 mathw And I'm delighted to read that particular article. It's also making me think I really need to learn Moose...
08:54 masak me too.
08:54 masak and steal all the introspection for Perl 6 :)
08:55 mathw hee hee
08:55 mathw just wish I could use Moose at work
08:55 mathw there are people there who could really benefit from it
08:55 mathw but our servers don't have Moose on them
08:56 mathw and getting a module from CPAN approved and installed is worth more effort than I want to expend on a job I'm hoping to leave soon
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09:01 scottp My google has failed me... I have tried fresh Rakudo #22 on Mac OSX And get: src/string/api.c:2187: error: 'LONG_MAX
09:02 mathw Hello scottp
09:02 mathw Is there any more of that error message?
09:02 moritz_ scottp: while running perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot?
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09:33 scottp moritz_: yes - running "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" after a fresh checkout to be sure.
09:34 scottp Ahhh... here is something that may help: /usr/include/secure/_stdio.h:53:1: warning: this is the location of the previous definition
09:36 moritz_ scottp: that's an error I've never seen before, so I'm afraid I can't help. You could try asking in #parrot on irc.perl.org though
09:36 scottp I had one other idea. The version of perl may be causing an issue. I seem to have two.
09:36 scottp Ta will do
09:38 scottp Compiling now with the other perl - will let you know. Thanks.
09:40 Su-Shee moritz_: did you by any chance read the recent iX hype about "functional and oo hybrid languages" and how suddenly language which can do both become fashionable again? ;) you should consider beating the same bush in your p6 article.
09:40 moritz_ Su-Shee: too late, it's already in print
09:40 moritz_ Su-Shee: but I'll remember it for my next one, thanks :-)
09:42 scottp YES IT WORKED.... OK One we need to add to the FAQ. Lots of Mac apps install other versions of perl, and that was my prob
09:42 Su-Shee and don't forget the comparison how "go" has only interface and mention roles. ;)
09:43 moritz_ scottp: so which one was successful?
09:43 scottp the standard mac one
09:43 scottp The /opt - which for some reason was default in my path version was wrong. My guess is it is due to compile time options, which Parrot uses to work out which C and libraries to use.
09:44 scottp i.e. the /opt perl might have libraries/headers etc that are no longer available
09:44 perigrin is there a way to test after teh fact which perl you built against?
09:44 moritz_ which is wrong, and being worked on
09:45 moritz_ parrot_config perl
09:45 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><perl>
09:45 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: /usr/bin/perl␤
09:45 perigrin heh
09:45 perigrin 'perl'
09:46 perigrin but I suspect that's my 5.10
09:46 scottp horrah all tests passed
09:46 moritz_ YaY
09:46 scottp where is the right place to document the problem/solution for others to find/
09:47 moritz_ probably in the README
09:50 moritz_ scottp: you can submit a README patch to rakudobug@perl.org
09:53 masak I'll go very soon (lunch+packing+flight), but before that, does anyone have any suggestion for the name of today's release?
09:53 masak out of the suggestions in the release guide, the only one I have a relation to is Lisbon.pm
09:54 moritz_ well, that's a start, isn't it?
09:54 moritz_ and...
09:54 moritz_ don't you go to some kind of perl meeting?
09:54 moritz_ is that organized by a .pm group?
09:54 masak yes, but Stockholm.pm has already been a release.
09:56 moritz_ then take Lisbon
09:57 masak goodie.
09:57 masak will switch countries, then do a release.
09:57 masak see you.
09:57 moritz_ bye, good flight
10:01 jnthn o/
10:01 * jnthn here for a little bit before going to the airport.
10:01 jnthn ooh...I just missed masak!
10:03 vamped how does one view .pod documents? gedit doesn't provide any formatting.
10:03 moritz_ vamped: perldoc $file.pod
10:04 vamped moritz: thx
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10:16 jnthn blast! We need to update our grammar!
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10:42 jnthn airport time! \o/
10:42 zaslon loljnthnhazblogged! jnthn++ 'Progress and minor frustration': http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/39917?from=rss
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11:01 pugs_svn r29131 | pmurias++ | [mildew-j] improve error messages for a missing method,
11:01 pugs_svn r29131 | CORE/{Signature.pm,Multi.pm} are loaded my mildew-js
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11:54 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
11:57 colomon \o
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12:16 carlin "I had to find out what bloody Twitter was. I thought it was a new guy playing five-eighth for England" - All Blacks Coach Graham Henry is bewildered by modern life.
12:26 dalek rakudo: b5d7e51 | pmichaud++ | docs/ChangeLog:
12:26 dalek rakudo: Update ChangeLog for release.
12:26 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b5d7e51885c81c961cc108e2f80007a9ab613a2d
12:26 dalek rakudo: 6e6a5ac | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2009-11:
12:26 dalek rakudo: Add 2009-11 announcement draft.
12:26 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6e6a5ac5fc043edf3faf159294c3d999ed725935
12:26 dalek rakudo: 40b555d | pmichaud++ | docs/ChangeLog:
12:26 dalek rakudo: Oops, named argument binding to positional parameters was already done.
12:26 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/40b555d89ca6f5c874330d791b5d48feed8ecc41
12:32 dalek rakudo: b1a2db7 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
12:32 dalek rakudo: spectest-progress.csv update: 453 files, 32753 (85.5% of 38318) pass, 5 fail
12:32 dalek rakudo: Failure summary:
12:32 dalek rakudo: S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.rakudo aborted 5 test(s)
12:32 dalek rakudo: S06-signature/named-parameters.rakudo passed 81 unplanned test(s)
12:32 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b1a2db721ad121471f0b29631c183ee79b008fc5
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12:51 pmichaud phenny: tell masak  I've added a draft announcement for the release -- update it as you see best!  thanks!
12:51 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
12:51 moritz_ phenny++
12:51 moritz_ pmichaud++
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12:56 dalek rakudo: c5c2aae | pmichaud++ | docs/announce/2009-11:
12:56 dalek rakudo: Update 2009-11 announcement with latest spectest numbers.
12:56 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/c5c2aaead18b1cd43e52e59ebc8b3396b4ee7031
12:56 dalek rakudo: 0fd222b | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
12:56 dalek rakudo: Bump PARROT_REVISION to Parrot's 1.8.0 release.
12:56 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0fd222bcf9c361a0da933cb45ccf5dacf11c08f3
12:56 ruoso bom dia...
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13:06 takadonet greeting all
13:06 moritz_ oh hai
13:07 colomon o/
13:09 colomon pmichaud: do roles work in ngyet?
13:11 pmichaud colomon: there's some support for roles, but I don't know how far along it is yet.
13:12 colomon I've been thinking of Iterator again, and how roles might interact with it.
13:14 pmichaud I'm thinking Iterator is likely a role.
13:14 colomon like having an Iterator role with both get and generate methods, and a default implementation of generate($n) which just calls get repeatedly
13:15 pmichaud could be.  There's something to be said for allowing .get to take an argument, or have some equivalent of .lines that allows a number
13:21 colomon I like the idea that implementing a really simple get function should be enough to your iterator get up and running.
13:21 pmichaud sure, makes sense
13:22 colomon and still have a system which allows smarter behaviors.
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13:26 colomon btw, one thing that came up that had me confused.  The idea that map is lazy, so it doesn't actually do anything if you don't do anything with the results of the map.
13:26 pmichaud yes, that's correct.  (remember that void context is eager, though)
13:26 colomon I don't mind map working that way (though it is troublesome for a lot of baby idioms with side effects)...
13:27 colomon is eager void context not currently working?
13:27 pmichaud correct, it's not.
13:27 colomon ah!
13:27 colomon okay, I'm cool with the language design, then.
13:27 colomon just need to get the implementation to match.  :)
13:28 pmichaud I'm trying to decide how to get map to detect that it's in void context
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13:28 moritz_ pmichaud: that's not map's job
13:28 pmichaud the alternative is to generate an "eager(...)"  call around every statement... and I'm not sure I want to do that.
13:28 moritz_ that's basically what TimToady suggested
13:28 moritz_ except he called it .Void or so
13:29 pmichaud oh, .Void might not be so bad.
13:33 payload joined #perl6
13:35 pmichaud afk for a bit
13:36 moritz_ OT question: in bash, what's the wildcard for "everything but A"?
13:38 moritz_ ah, [^A]*
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13:55 PerlJam greets
13:55 arthur-_ joined #perl6
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13:57 moritz_ hello PerlJam
14:06 carlin http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Introducing-Bad-Code-Offsets.aspx # Brilliant
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14:09 PerlJam masak++ and mst++ posts triggered lots of good responses in the blogosphere
14:10 moritz_ and KyleHa++ has brought it to perlmonks, but the monks don't seem to be interested in a serious discussion
14:23 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning
14:23 Wolfman2000 PerlJam: what's the latest discussion on? I've mainly been idling here
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14:30 KyleHa I tried to run update_test_whatever_thats_called with ng, and it took over my machine for a while--load average spike, all memory consumed.  Has this been identified already, or should I try to figure out what happened?
14:32 moritz_ KyleHa: I've experience the same thing...
14:33 moritz_ KyleHa: I suspect it's a test in an infinite loop
14:33 moritz_ which makes parrot cosume all memory
14:33 moritz_ so nothing to worry about for now :-)
14:33 moritz_ just start with resource limits set
14:33 KyleHa Well, we'd like to know WHICH test, yes?
14:34 moritz_ you can easily find out by letting `top' or `htop' running
14:34 moritz_ and then you can see which parrot process consumes all that memory, and you can also see its command line arguments
14:34 KyleHa Yes, I was going to do something like that.
14:35 KyleHa OK, thanks!
14:35 moritz_ you can also merge or rebase (locally) the autounfudge-with-limits branch
14:35 moritz_ which starts each parrot process with a resource limit
14:36 moritz_ I haven't merged it yet because it's an ugly hack that only works on *nix
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14:49 pugs_svn r29132 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] t/signature.t,t/signature-named.t
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14:53 * pmurias considers blogging about mildew-js but is concered mildew-js is not blog worthy yet
14:54 moritz_ pmurias: why shouldn't it be?
14:55 PerlJam What is "blog worthy"?  What does that mean?
14:55 pmurias PerlJam: worthy of a blog post?
14:56 moritz_ I think the question boils down to "do I waste other people's time when I blog about it?"
14:56 pmurias yes
14:56 moritz_ usually the answer is "no", because people stop reading very quickly when they are not interested
14:56 moritz_ so you only waste 5 seconds of their time, that's fine IMHO
14:57 * PerlJam never thinks of it that way.
14:57 PerlJam If I write something, it's about a topic that I find interesting or useful.  If someone else also finds it interesting, great; if not, oh well.
14:57 moritz_ the second question is "do I waste my time writing it?"
14:58 PerlJam moritz_: aye, that's the more important one IMHO
14:58 moritz_ and that depends on many factors
14:58 moritz_ usually I blog things because otherwise I write the same thing a few times in different discussions
14:59 moritz_ that's why I attempted to write the ulimative answer to "how can I handle Unicode in perl (5)", and "why are LTM and proto regexes so important" and such pieces
15:00 moritz_ and then there are things I blog about because I want people to know, and by blogging I reach many more people than via IRC
15:02 moritz_ and I think that's what pmurias is aiming at
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15:03 pmurias moritz_: what i'm unsure of is it worth to blog about mildew-js till it can run enough stuff to be interesting
15:04 moritz_ pmurias: so what *can* it run today?
15:05 pmurias v6/re-mildew/TESTS-js - a subset of test mildew can run
15:06 moritz_ so it's so much that you can't summarize it in one line? :-)
15:06 moritz_ then it's blog-worthy
15:06 pmurias it has roles,subs,control exceptions
15:07 moritz_ that's blog worthy
15:07 moritz_ it also seems to have stuff that rakudo doesn't have yet
15:08 moritz_ like t/caller_my_pseudo_packages.t
15:08 moritz_ and t/throw_inside_catch.t
15:08 Wolfman2000 ...back from breakfast. pmurias: If I'm understanding you...there is a Javascript implementation of Perl 6 that is farther along than Rakudo/
15:08 pmurias t/throw_inside_catch.t is incorrect
15:08 Wolfman2000 ?*
15:08 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . ? @ v
15:08 moritz_ Wolfman2000: it's only further along in some specific areas
15:08 pmurias Wolfman2000: Rakudo is much farther
15:09 kst joined #perl6
15:10 Wolfman2000 ...right, forgot about this thought.
15:10 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:10 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my $tmp = any(1, 3); say $tmp;
15:10 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: any(1, 3)␤
15:11 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my $tmp = any(1, 3); say $tmp[0];
15:11 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Int'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
15:11 Wolfman2000 ...right. I need to figure out how to get something out of an any
15:11 pmurias rakudo: say any(1,3).pick
15:11 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: maximum recursion depth exceeded␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
15:12 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say any(1,3).pick(1)
15:12 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: maximum recursion depth exceeded␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
15:12 Wolfman2000 Alright, that didn't quite work
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15:13 pmurias moritz_: i'll blog about mildew-js once i get multis working
15:13 Wolfman2000 multis... :)
15:13 Wolfman2000 moritz_, TimToady, et al: you really got me liking the multis
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15:40 KyleHa That infinite loop we talked about earlier seems to be in sub-ref.t, the RT #63974 test, when Test.pm tries to @topic_array.perl
15:44 moritz_ ouch
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16:00 pmichaud re-good morning, #perl6
16:01 KyleHa Howdy, pmichaud!
16:04 mathw You know you're in trouble in a job interview when the interviewer says 'I really don't know who comes up with these questions to ask. Have a look at this code...'
16:05 mathw And then your eyes get all tangled up in it, because it turns out to be a semi-obfuscated way of making doubly linked lists out of hash references in Perl.
16:12 phio_ joined #perl6
16:13 moritz_ :/
16:13 kst joined #perl6
16:18 mathw moritz_: It was a new experience for me. Perl data structures are usually based around lists and hashes mixed together, rather than inventing one's own list
16:18 pnate it sounds stupid to me
16:19 pnate were they testing you to see your reaction to it or something?
16:19 mathw pnate: yes, it was, but it's a job interview question
16:19 mathw they're often a bit stupid in an attempt to get you to demonstrate knowledge in a constrained environment
16:19 mathw There was also a delightfully weird bit of C which ends up just telling you if your stack gets allocated top down or bottom up
16:21 moritz_ is that interesting? I mean unless you write malware, of course :-)
16:21 mathw No it's not interesting at all
16:21 mathw I told him what it does
16:21 moritz_ for a VM maybe
16:21 mathw and then said I have no idea why you'd care
16:21 mathw And he said he isn't sure either
16:22 mathw Clearly not writing his own questions
16:22 pnate hahaha
16:22 pnate sounds like it was equally awkward for both parties
16:22 moritz_ and he can't tell you "because we write and sell exploits", obviously :-)
16:22 mathw lol
16:22 pnate haha
16:22 mathw Well that's not the job I'm going for...
16:23 mathw They probably do have people whose job it is to find exploits though
16:42 Coke joined #perl6
16:42 Coke is there a way with straight regex to get balanced {}'d ? (e.g. so {{}} matches but {{} doesn't?)
16:42 takadonet joined #perl6
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16:44 moritz_ Coke: with recursion that should work
16:45 cspencer hello, all
16:45 moritz_ rakudo: regex b { '{' <b>? '{' }; say "yes" if '{{}}' ~~ / ^ <b> $ /
16:45 Coke moritz_: just found that on perlmonks 179555. Good idea.
16:45 p6eval rakudo 7347ec:  ( no output )
16:45 moritz_ hi cspencer, long time no see
16:45 moritz_ rakudo: regex b { '{' <b>? '}' }; say "yes" if '{{}}' ~~ / ^ <b> $ /
16:45 am0c joined #perl6
16:45 cspencer moritz_: indeed, six day work weeks took me away from the rakudo world for a while
16:45 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: yes␤
16:46 moritz_ cspencer: ouch
16:46 moritz_ rakudo: regex b { '{' <b>? '}' }; say "yes" if '{{}' ~~ / ^ <b> $ /
16:46 p6eval rakudo 7347ec:  ( no output )
16:46 moritz_ six days is tough
16:46 cspencer moritz_: yeah, i'm making up for it now with a three day a week schedule
16:47 cspencer which leaves me time to look at rakudo again
16:47 cspencer i imagine a lot has changed in the last 8 months though, so i best start re-reading all the docs :)
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16:48 moritz_ cspencer: yes, there's currently a branch on the way where we basically rewrite rakudo from scratch
16:48 moritz_ cspencer: using the new-and-shiny grammar engine which suports proto regexes
16:48 mathw it is a very, very cool branch though
16:48 cspencer i saw that on planetsix!
16:48 mathw everything's much nicer there
16:48 * mathw out
16:48 cspencer it sounds pretty awesome, though i've not had a chance to check it out yet
16:48 cspencer is that what everyone is working from now?
16:49 PerlJam cspencer: mostly.
16:50 moritz_ mostly, yes
16:50 moritz_ we've had a few small bug fixes in master
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16:59 PerlJam There have been 27 commits to master since the creation of the ng branch.  There have been 325 commits to the ng branch in the same time frame.
16:59 moritz_ wow, I wasn't aware it was that many
17:00 PerlJam (roughly)
17:00 PerlJam I should say "since the common commit ancestor of the master and ng branches" since that's all I can really tell with git merge-base.
17:01 PerlJam But I'm assuming there haven't been many (any?) merges between the branches.
17:01 rfordinal3643 joined #perl6
17:01 moritz_ afaict just one cherry-pick
17:04 PerlJam and there were about 30 commits since the last release before the ng branch was committed, so total commits between releases is 354 (so far)
17:04 PerlJam wait ... wasn't masak going to do the release this morning his localtime?  That should have already happened, no?
17:05 moritz_ PerlJam: nope, was re-scheduled for the evening
17:06 PerlJam smart move :)
17:06 cspencer git question: how do i pull a non-master branch from github?  (in this case, ng) :)
17:07 PerlJam I bet if I look at the times that the tags were made, I bet they tend to always be in the evening :)
17:07 moritz_ cspencer: when you pull, you always obtain all branches
17:07 PerlJam cspencer: after you clone the repo, just do  "git checkout ng"
17:07 PerlJam oops, that's wrong.
17:07 cspencer ah, ok :)  thanks
17:07 moritz_ and then git checkout -b ng orgin/ng
17:07 PerlJam yeah, that'll do
17:08 cspencer great, thanks :)
17:08 * PerlJam is annoyed that he keeps forgetting the syntax for making a tracking branch in git
17:09 moritz_ --track
17:09 moritz_ to the command above
17:09 PerlJam yeah, but is is "git checkout -t -b ng origin/ng" or just "git checkout -t ng"  or what?
17:10 moritz_ whenever you create a new branch you need -b
17:10 moritz_ and to track something you have to create a local branch
17:10 moritz_ or with branch.autosetupmerge you can make --track the default
17:11 PerlJam "git checkout -t origin/ng" will make a local branche for you.
17:11 PerlJam that's what it is.
17:11 moritz_ oh, I didn't know that
17:11 PerlJam I think it's only on newer gits.
17:12 moritz_ I was just stupidly typing git checkout -b ng --track origin/ng  and felt like a monkey
17:14 PerlJam checkout is git's swiss army knife
17:27 masak joined #perl6
17:27 masak OH HAI
17:27 phenny masak: 12:51Z <pmichaud> tell masak  I've added a draft announcement for the release -- update it as you see best!  thanks!
17:27 masak I can haz Riga Hotel wifi connection!
17:27 pmichaud \p/
17:27 jnthn lolitsmasak
17:27 masak \o/
17:27 masak jnthn!
17:27 masak I presume you're somewhere nearby? :P
17:27 jnthn :P
17:28 masak ok. release. :)
17:28 jnthn \o/
17:28 * masak pulls
17:28 jnthn Yeah, it's easy in Latvia, huh? ;-)
17:29 spinclad Latvia must be a small country, huh?  Hardly bigger than one hotel.
17:29 masak spinclad: actually, it's at least as big as three hotels.
17:29 spinclad (well, Riga, anyway)
17:30 spinclad just happening to bump into another just happening to be in town
17:30 jnthn Yeah, dunno how it happened.
17:31 masak complete happenstance.
17:31 masak it's not like we planned to meet at the airport or something like that. :)
17:36 pmichaud afk, lunch
17:38 mberends joined #perl6
17:38 masak mberends! \o/
17:38 mberends 'allo 'allo masak
17:38 jnthn oh hai mberends
17:39 mberends hai jnthn, are you in Riga now?
17:39 jnthn mberends: Oh yes.
17:39 jnthn mberends: And you know what?
17:39 jnthn I ran into masak at the airport too.
17:40 masak \o/
17:40 mberends -Ofun
17:40 stephenlb joined #perl6
17:40 jnthn lol...I just gave masak a merge conflict!
17:41 * mberends is in Friesland with limited web access.  Catching up backlog from last Monday...
17:41 mberends next week will be better, hotel in Groningen promises free WiFi
17:43 mberends masak: I like your blogs and historical references, but last year you said it was going to be less Western/Euro-centric
17:44 dalek rakudo: d351043 | jnthn++ | docs/ (2 files):
17:44 dalek rakudo: Tweak the release announcement and change log to clarify what the nested siggies thing really is.
17:44 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d351043957248727151dd2cc65c43d16cd4757b9
17:44 jnthn mberends: The Dalai Llama ain't so western. ;-)
17:44 mberends troo
17:44 masak mberends: dang it, your memory is too good! :)
17:44 mberends so this month's Rakudo release comes from Latvia :-)
17:45 moritz_ so... Latvia.pm?
17:45 masak mberends: the trooth is that I meant to scour Wikipedia for lots of non-Western history, but I never got around to it.
17:45 mberends nvm
17:45 masak it does indeed :(
17:45 masak s/:\(/:)/
17:45 mberends heh
17:46 jnthn Erm. I may have meant Lama, not Llama.
17:46 masak moritz_: actually, Lisbon.pm
17:46 masak I haven't met Latvia.pm yet, don't know if they're good guys. :)
17:46 masak ...or if they HATE PERL 6.
17:46 jnthn .oO( wish I had photoshop )
17:46 masak llol
17:47 * masak has disturbing mental visions
17:47 mberends we all use Perl 5, even if it is to build Perl 6 ;-)  like I use IE to download and install Firefox
17:47 masak "Oh no! Dalai Llama spit in my face!"
17:48 masak mberends: nice slogan. very... non-offensive. :P
17:48 mberends masak: you're too kind
17:49 masak mberends: we really should start thinking about that blog engine.
17:49 dalek rakudo: b237f9c | masak++ | docs/announce/2009-11:
17:49 dalek rakudo: [docs/announce/2009-11] filled in the name "Lisbon"
17:49 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b237f9c06fd1f7435b0f060cb332aed7d8d2e60c
17:50 masak mberends: do you think we could have a prototype for Christmas? :)
17:50 mberends masak: the problem is not only tuits, but also the numerous more shiny toys to play with.  I haz a sekrit one too...
17:51 masak oh noes!
17:51 jnthn masak: Which Christmas?
17:51 cognominal sekrit?
17:51 masak mberends: is it Perl 6-related?
17:52 masak ssszekkritt!
17:52 mberends masak: you show me yours, and I'll show you mine, and to nobody else ?
17:53 TimToady .oO(sounds like getting married...)
17:53 * mberends suspects masak has a very interesting sekrit
17:54 masak joined #perl6
17:54 jnthn oops, didn't mean to tread on ya cable...
17:54 spinclad onoezwelostmasak.. ohthereheis
17:54 * masak kicks the wifi
17:55 masak mberends: you'd be getting the short end of such a deal -- I go public on Saturday :)
17:56 mberends masak: roll on Saturday then!
17:56 masak \o/
17:56 jnthn Yay, I'll be in The Talk Where masak Reveals all
17:56 masak all spectests pass here.
17:57 * masak goes to read the release guide rather than just winging it
17:57 jnthn I can't believe I'm watching someone reading something in the docs folder.
17:57 cognominal is there a doc folder? :)
17:57 masak I'm not reading it very carefully... :)
17:58 masak hm, should I update the ROADMAP?
17:58 * masak czechs
17:58 Tene masak: I'm not exhausted so far today!  If it holds out for another six hours or so, I might get something done tonight!
17:58 KyleHa jnthn: You were using 'docs' for your diary?
17:58 masak Tene: sounds promising. :)
17:58 moritz_ masak: that's not a typical release manager job
17:59 mberends on that topic, does anyone where the docs are to get mildew-js running?
17:59 Tene KyleHa: no, for his recipe book.
17:59 jnthn KyleHa: No, just my password list.
17:59 Tene docs/tasty_curry
17:59 jnthn KyleHa: Oh, and archiving all those love letters I wrote to...whatever her name was.
17:59 moritz_ mberends: presumably either in v6/re-mildew/ or in pmurias' head
17:59 masak apart from 'Completed ROADMAP items' at the bottom, the ROADMAP looks fine.
18:00 KyleHa She was very special.
18:02 Tene I'm getting nervous, not having written any code lately... I might have to start using caffeine again.
18:02 mberends moritz_: v6/re-mildew doesn't look very doc-y and I cannot ssh into pmurias++ head
18:03 moritz_ I think that's a feature :-)
18:03 mberends security feature, yeah :-)
18:04 KyleHa If my head had a ssh port, I'd plug it with my finger.
18:04 Tene If my head had ssh enabled, I'd take a week off of work and do some tidying and code cleanup.
18:05 Tene The bug tracker for my brain hase more tickets than Parrot's.
18:05 mberends plugging with a finger is a good old Dutch tradition (dykes etc)
18:08 * mberends tries 'make' in re-mildew # JFDI
18:09 cognominal ho, I did not know that meaning of dyke...
18:10 cognominal I should remember this is not #perl
18:10 mberends cognominal: :)
18:12 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
18:15 jnthn cognominal: I, erm, learned the meaning about the water control type later too.
18:18 dalek rakudo: 1db377a | masak++ | docs/ChangeLog:
18:18 dalek rakudo: [docs/ChangeLog] added a few more changes
18:18 dalek rakudo: ...from the 'git log'.
18:18 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1db377a64104da0ae18711f0d92e4882c8fa765f
18:20 masak people might want to help review the announcement. http://gist.github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/master/docs/announce/2009-11
18:20 masak I'll especially welcome more nice things to say about Lisbon.pm.
18:21 * moritz_ reads
18:21 moritz_ one and a half lines are enough IMHO :-)
18:22 masak very well.
18:22 mberends +1
18:22 moritz_ looks fine to me
18:23 payload joined #perl6
18:24 mberends drat. re-mildew needs re-smop, and that has some b0rken C atm
18:24 colomon masak: looks good to me.
18:24 dalek rakudo: f5065b6 | masak++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
18:24 dalek rakudo: [docs/release_guide.pod] rolled releases forward
18:24 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f5065b6e0d4a5e79dde25773fec16c3b04c676c1
18:26 jnthn masak: Apparently they organized a YAPC.
18:42 colomon we have release!  \o/
18:42 jnthn masak++
18:42 PerlJam masak++
18:43 PerlJam (a rakudo release is a nice thing to come back from lunch to :-)
18:43 masak and by that, I think I'm done.
18:43 masak and my battery is running out.
18:43 masak and I've forgotten my charger :/
18:43 pmichaud masak++
18:43 mberends masak++
18:43 * masak wishes karma charged his battery :P
18:43 moritz_ masak++
18:43 jnthn masak: We can has cheez burger now plz?
18:44 masak oh yes.
18:44 jnthn \o/
18:44 masak I still think we prioritized things right. :P
18:46 * PerlJam has some reservations about a certain university's ability to prepare grad students for graduating.
18:46 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'Rakudo Perl 6 development release #23 ("Lisbon")': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39918?from=rss
18:46 masak food &
18:46 PerlJam "When I give my project report, will they ask me questions?"
18:46 reid06 joined #perl6
18:46 pmichaud masak:  what, no "On today's date in .... " quote?
18:46 pmichaud (yes, I know he left)
18:47 pmichaud PerlJam: answer is  "If your report is good enough to merit questions, yes.  If they don't ask questions, you've probably done something really wrong."
18:48 mberends offline_hotel &
18:48 PerlJam pmichaud: the follow up was funnier  ...  "Where can I find a list of these questions?"  :)
18:48 pmichaud lol
18:48 KyleHa masak++  # release of Lisbon
18:49 pmichaud "I don't understand why I have to write a report.  I already paid for the course... isn't that sufficient?"
18:51 astrojp left #perl6
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18:59 TimToady we're in the wrong business--we should sell fake Doctorates in Linguistics...
19:01 PerlJam TimToady: fake?  Just found an educational institution and make them real!
19:05 TimToady I've already paid for an educational institution...isn't that sufficient?
19:05 PerlJam The Larry Wall Center for Advanced Linguistics  :)
19:06 KyleHa Last time I found an education institution, all I learned was that I don't know what a linguistic is.  I assume it's pasta.
19:08 chromatic joined #perl6
19:08 TimToady Used to be I couldn't spell Advacned Lingristics, and now I are one...
19:11 kst joined #perl6
19:12 TimToady maybe we should rename 'void' to 'suck', since it's eager...
19:13 TimToady Perl 6, the language that sucks by default
19:13 * PerlJam goes to void his bladder
19:15 diakopter Perl 6, the language that makes [line] noise in a vacuum.
19:15 TimToady only when you vacuum up the cord, silly
19:16 TimToady actually, 'vacuum' wouldn't be a bad name for an eager void
19:18 KyleHa Vortex.
19:19 PerlJam vacwm  (hehe :)
19:19 PerlJam gyre
19:19 TimToady you don't cheat fair
19:19 TimToady Sucker
19:20 TimToady or we could call it BlackHole and guarantee it won't be used in Russia...
19:20 TimToady we could be the first language to implement the Singularity
19:22 pmichaud ...except that black holes do not suck.  :)
19:22 PerlJam You could call it the Wall (at least 3 meanings there)
19:22 diakopter hole
19:22 diakopter (implied gravity well)
19:22 TimToady well, maybe we could make mst happier by changing Suck to F-ck
19:23 pmichaud heh
19:23 pmichaud I think he already named it that.
19:23 pmichaud at least, that was the title of a recent blog post  :)
19:23 pmichaud "We've decided to rename Perl 6 to F-ck, which means that mst is now our most ardent marketer for Perl 6"
19:24 diakopter I thought we were naming 'eager void'
19:24 astrojp joined #perl6
19:24 [particle] am i in #perl?
19:25 diakopter /me whois you
19:26 TimToady [particle]: we're not swearing, just meta-swearing
19:27 perigrin F-ck.HOW seems wrong
19:28 KyleHa rakudo: WHAT( $are_you_deaf )
19:28 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Symbol '$are_you_deaf' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/ei6cL3qH7s:2)␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
19:29 KyleHa That was funnier in my head.
19:30 am0c joined #perl6
19:30 diakopter rakudo: sonic
19:31 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Could not find non-existent sub sonic␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
19:33 diakopter rakudo: standard
19:33 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Could not find non-existent sub standard␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
19:34 pmichaud "eager void" sounds like the topic of a FloMax commercial.
19:35 diakopter or Activia.
19:36 TimToady Ex Lax, for that get-up-and-go feeling...
19:44 * TimToady channels Mad Magazine from his misspent youth
19:44 PerlJam as long as you don't channel Mad Max
19:45 TimToady more like Maxfield Smart
19:45 * dukeleto imagines TimToady riding on a hog in a post-apocalyptic future
19:47 TimToady I think we haven't discovered anything with this discussion, other than that freud rhymes with void
19:48 KyleHa ...and that starts with V and that rhymes with T and that stands for Trouble!!
19:48 diakopter and with The Noid
19:50 TimToady and with Pink Floyd
19:52 PerlJam and now we're back to the Wall
19:52 * pmichaud tosses a brick at PerlJam.
19:54 * colomon wishes he were comfortably numb...
19:54 TimToady I think 'vacuum' is still the best, metaphorically speaking
19:56 PerlJam you could use "gap" and then we'd have fun with "mind the gap!"
19:58 TimToady colloquially, vacuum can be shortened to 'vac'
19:58 TimToady and that's even shorter than void
19:59 PerlJam and can be punned in a few more useful ways too
20:00 PerlJam But "vac" makes me think of "car" and "cdr" and that reminds me of lisp and lisp gives me crazy surreal nightmares.
20:00 PerlJam :-)
20:00 TimToady never heard of a CdrVac...
20:00 diakopter how about 'well'
20:01 TimToady wells aren't supposed to return Nil
20:01 PerlJam but you can get oil and/or water from them sometimes
20:02 TimToady there's the 'null' of /dev/null as well, which semantically is much like a vacuum
20:03 TimToady in the take but don't give back sense
20:05 dukeleto TimToady: what about 'sink' . mathematicians love talking about sources and sinks
20:06 TimToady that's...not bad
20:06 KyleHa Sounds like the mathematicians are really thinking of drains.
20:06 TimToady sink does imply some degree of eagerness
20:07 TimToady oh, dear...
20:07 TimToady my Sink sub {...}
20:07 * TimToady is tempted to kick himself
20:08 TimToady all things considered, sink would be an improvement over void
20:08 kst joined #perl6
20:09 TimToady apart from prior art, of course
20:09 TimToady fo() ==> bar() ==> sink;
20:09 ShaneC joined #perl6
20:10 TimToady *foo  # balky o key again... :(
20:11 moritz_ better than KitchenSink
20:11 TimToady KitchenSink is the role
20:17 pmichaud are we still thinking that expressions in void context end up with  .Void  ?
20:17 pmichaud or would that now be   .sink or .Sink or ...?
20:17 pmichaud and why does .sink suddenly remind me of .sinh  ?  ;-)
20:18 * KyleHa has a sinking feeling.
20:18 TimToady rakudo: my $_ = 'sinh'; .++; .++; .++; .say
20:18 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Syntax error at line 2, near ".++; .++; "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:19 pmichaud rakudo:  my $_ = 'sinh';  .=succ; .=succ; .=succ; .say
20:19 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: sink␤
20:19 pmichaud there
20:19 pmichaud sinks succ three times more than sinh's
20:19 * TimToady whimpers
20:20 dukeleto my Sink sub :adiabatic { ... }
20:23 dukeleto left #perl6
20:23 dukeleto joined #perl6
20:24 sjohnson diakopter++ thanks for the console tip
20:24 sjohnson will try it out
20:25 sjohnson diakopter... you GENIUS
20:29 kst joined #perl6
20:37 diakopter i see
20:37 TimToady but vacuum is still better than sink, because vacuums are eager, while sinks are lazy
20:38 cognominal :)
20:38 diakopter unless you think in terms of gravitons
20:38 diakopter well, I guess I meant
20:38 moritz_ the existence of gravitons is not yet generally accepted
20:39 TimToady sinks don't do anything; it's the earth that sucks
20:39 perigrin unless you have a disposal
20:39 moritz_ so rename to .Earth? :-)
20:39 perigrin .gravity_well
20:39 diakopter .hempty_dempty
20:40 diakopter _sat_on_a_Wall
20:40 diakopter it's an odd day.
20:40 TimToady the question is, who's to be master, that's all...
20:41 diakopter .pit
20:41 diakopter .abyss
20:41 diakopter .abysm
20:42 diakopter .gehenna
20:42 moritz_ .bikeshed_void
20:42 diakopter that's a tad more destructive
20:42 diakopter heh
20:42 TimToady black holes are evaluated only for their side effects...
20:42 mathw Evening
20:44 TimToady btw $a++; return $b;
20:44 diakopter std: return return
20:44 p6eval std 29132: ok 00:01 99m␤
20:45 TimToady .shed
20:46 diakopter std: /me sheds a tear in the spime continuum
20:46 p6eval std 29132: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Regex missing terminator at /tmp/GnzU8vHVbI line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32m/me sheds a tear in the spime continuum[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:01 100m␤
20:46 diakopter I mean
20:46 diakopter yeah
20:48 TimToady .nsa
20:49 spinclad no such acronym?
20:50 TimToady now sink anything
20:50 moritz_ you think that's cute today :-)
20:51 spinclad ===SORRY!===\nAcronym missing referent at 20:48:21
20:51 TimToady sync
20:52 diakopter TimToady: I thought you hid the deep recursion warning on std
20:52 diakopter .nom
20:52 TimToady it seems to keep cropping up in odd places, like it's not properly lexical scoped
20:52 diakopter .nom_nom_nom
20:53 diakopter use 4chan_memes;
20:53 TimToady funny think is, a sink really is a sync point
20:53 TimToady KitchenSync
20:54 dukeleto sink; sink; sink; #just to be sure
20:54 diakopter KvetchingSink
20:55 [particle]1 joined #perl6
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20:59 TimToady I really like the sink === sync correspondence, but maybe that's just my brainfever talking
20:59 christin1 joined #perl6
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21:00 buu joined #perl6
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21:01 dukeleto TimToady: what exactly are you thinking about using 'sink' for?
21:01 TimToady replacement for statement_prefix:void mostly
21:01 sjohnson cleaning dishes
21:03 TimToady but something that implies eager context more than 'void' does
21:03 baest joined #perl6
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21:07 dukeleto TimToady: 'engulf' ?
21:07 moritz_ what about 'eager'?
21:08 moritz_ it does comunicat eagerness :-)
21:08 dukeleto TimToady: should statement_prefix:void be an English verb or adjective or does it not matter?
21:08 dukeleto moritz_: there you go being logical again ;)
21:10 spinclad as a verb it means more like 'source', though
21:10 TimToady eager returns its results
21:10 Tene 'ignore'?
21:11 Tene 'discard'?
21:11 spinclad 'ignore' could be lazy
21:11 * spinclad would think 'slurp', but it's already taken
21:12 Tene I'd think slurp would return its results.
21:12 spinclad no, that would be 'void' ?8-[
21:13 * moritz_ likes 'sink'
21:14 * spinclad too
21:14 Woody2143 joined #perl6
21:15 pnate yeah, sink's good >_>
21:15 PerlJam sink +1
21:15 TimToady are those sink points?
21:18 dukeleto i have a sinking feeling that we are making progress
21:19 pmichaud joined #perl6
21:19 eiro joined #perl6
21:20 moritz_ if somebody finds an alternative name you can't easily make puns on -- that would get myvote
21:21 Su-Shee left #perl6
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21:25 TimToady but can we bear to say 'sink context' everywhere we've been saying 'void context'?
21:26 dukeleto TimToady: so 'sink context' is just shorthand for saying 'eager void context' ?
21:26 TimToady no such thing as lazy void context...
21:27 [particle] why does it seem that when rakudo enters the "next 80%", it always means totally reimplementing the last 80% again?
21:27 moritz_ because it's software.
21:27 dukeleto [particle]: why do you say that?
21:27 [particle] rakudo passes 85+% of spectests
21:27 dukeleto [particle]: is this in reference to their nqp-rx changes?
21:28 [particle] what's the next step? reimplement! :)
21:28 moritz_ that's just a meaningless number
21:28 [particle] yes
21:28 TimToady well, if a dataset of one element can be called "always"
21:28 [particle] moritz_: i know.
21:28 [particle] rakudo has been totally reimplemented before
21:28 moritz_ if you substract the trig tests, rakudo is at 70%
21:28 [particle] i was there
21:28 payload joined #perl6
21:28 dukeleto TimToady: so there will be no such think as 'void context' in perl 6, only 'sink context' ?
21:28 moritz_ if you count all tests yet to be written, rakudo is 40% there
21:28 [particle] i'm not down on it, i'm just noticing a pattern
21:28 dukeleto s/think/thing/
21:29 moritz_ [particle]: it's called "agile", that pattern
21:29 dukeleto [particle]: it could be that they made implemenation decisions due to limitations in parrot that they are going back to correct
21:30 [particle] i agree with all of that
21:30 dukeleto [particle]: i agree with your observation, just wondering about it
21:30 TimToady but you're measuring angularly, when timewise the middle of the whirlpool turns faster (we hope)
21:31 jnthn [particle]: The reasons for the current set of refactors were clearly outlined in a blog post by pm. Plesae read it.
21:31 [particle] yes, we hope, or it's not a good sink
21:31 [particle] jnthn: i understand completely
21:31 [particle] perhaps i should have used a winking smiley in my statement
21:31 jnthn [particle]: :-)
21:31 [particle] it's zeno-esque
21:31 zamolxes joined #perl6
21:32 [particle] everytime we reimplement the 80%, we do it faster
21:32 * PerlJam seems to recall that being paradoxical  :)
21:32 [particle] eventually, we'll reimplement that 80% as fast as the new cray finishes an infinite loop!
21:34 dukeleto PerlJam: The Zeno Paradox is only a paradox if you don't take into account quantum effects. At some point, it is no longer possible to "half your distance"
21:35 * dukeleto is pretty sure perl6 development harnesses quantum effects
21:35 PerlJam indeed
21:36 dukeleto when multiple people obvserve the spec, an implementation comes into being where one did not exist before
21:37 hsb joined #perl6
21:39 * [particle] waves
21:39 moritz_ dukeleto: it uses transistors under the hood, so "yes" :-)
21:39 moritz_ there you have your quantum effects
21:50 dukeleto Perl 6 : We Still Use Transistors
21:50 japhb I wonder if, as per quantum gravity, when the implementation gets dense enough, it bounces back violently (possibly creating a new universe just for the fun of it)
21:52 dukeleto japhb: i think you are talking about the 'big bounce' ? also, there is not such thing as 'quantum gravity', just a lot of out of work quantum gravity physicists :)
21:53 pmurias joined #perl6
21:53 japhb dukeleto, last I heard as of this year there was actually a quantum gravity theory that didn't produce infinities.  And it predicts bouncing at maximum density, yes.
21:53 dukeleto japhb: the hard thing is justifying why, when the density reaches the critical value, the force is 'negative' instead of 'positive' feedback
21:54 dukeleto japhb: yes, i read up on john baez's work. what i can understand, anyway
21:54 dukeleto japhb: i think i can grasp categories, and maybe even 2-categories, but when he busts out n-categories, I reach for some good scotch
21:55 japhb When 'loop quantum gravity' was all the rage, I think it had to do with quantized spacetime, such that you got a spacetime equivalent of Pauli Exclusion going on.
21:55 japhb I have no idea of the basis under the current theory, unfortunately.  The above was my memory of reports in SciAm et al.
21:56 pmurias mildew: say "hi"
21:56 * japhb hasn't taken a physics class in a really long time.
21:56 p6eval mildew: Can't locate MooseX/Declare.pm in @INC (@INC contains: src perl6-snapshot /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at src/AST.pm line 2.␤BEGIN failed--compilation a…
21:56 dukeleto japhb: john baez is a loop quantum gravity/quantum foam guy
21:57 [particle] i read that as joan baez
21:57 japhb A relative of mine got a PhD in high-energy particle physics a few years back, and now works in a basically unrelated field.  I wonder if he keeps up with current theory any more?
21:58 dukeleto japhb: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/
21:58 TimToady I have a relative who keeps up  :)
21:58 pmurias mildew: say "hi"
21:58 p6eval mildew: Can't locate MooseX/Declare.pm in @INC (@INC contains: src perl6-snapshot /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at src/AST.pm line 2.␤BEGIN failed--compilation a…
21:58 pugs_svn r29133 | pmurias++ | [re-mildew] remove unused dependency on MooseX::Declare
21:58 pmurias mildew: say "hi"
21:58 p6eval mildew: Can't locate MooseX/Declare.pm in @INC (@INC contains: src perl6-snapshot /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at src/AST.pm line 2.␤BEGIN failed--compilation a…
21:59 japhb TimToady, who would that be?
21:59 dukeleto p6eval is wreaking havok on my irc client
21:59 TimToady my son has just applied for a postdoc position at the Perimeter Institute
22:00 pmurias how can i leave a message for someone?
22:00 japhb dukeleto: ooh, that Mandelbulb fractal is very cool looking.  Nice rendering!
22:00 japhb TimToady, NICE.  Good luck to him!
22:00 dukeleto TimToady: congrats!
22:00 quietfanaytic joined #perl6
22:01 diakopter pmurias: hi
22:01 diakopter pmurias: p6eval needs MooseX::Declare?
22:01 dukeleto japhb: yes, john's "this week in mathematical physics" is usually entertaining an mind-bending
22:01 quietfanatic Gotta watch out for those fanaytics.
22:01 dukeleto quietfanatic: hola
22:01 quietfanatic dukeleto: yo
22:02 dukeleto quietfanatic: how is Link::C doing these days?
22:02 pmurias diakopter: hi
22:03 pmurias diakopter: there was a leftover 'use MooseX::Declare' left in mildew
22:03 quietfanatic It's on the backburner
22:03 quietfanatic I need to rewrite the parser again
22:04 quietfanatic I've been working more on Gamebase, which depends now on Events, which I am still contemplating
22:04 dukeleto quietfanatic: are you hitting any Parrot road blocks lately, or is it staying out of your way?
22:04 quietfanatic dukeleto: Not immediately
22:04 dukeleto quietfanatic: good to hear
22:05 quietfanatic besides the occaisonal wild null PMC
22:05 quietfanatic *occasional
22:05 quietfanatic I expect to hit a couple blocks soon though
22:06 quietfanatic such as speed
22:06 quietfanatic or, the inability to introspect constants out of signatures
22:06 quietfanatic rakudo: say :(3).perl
22:06 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: :(Int ::TYPE_CAPTURE20 where all({ ... }))␤
22:06 quietfanatic There's no 3 in there :)
22:07 quietfanatic Oh, something I came across recently:
22:07 quietfanatic rakudo: my &routine; say (:&routine).WHAT
22:07 spinclad it's there in the ... ... you gotta introspect harder
22:07 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Symbol '&routine' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
22:07 quietfanatic versus:
22:07 quietfanatic rakudo: my $routine; say (:$routine).WHAT
22:07 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Pair()␤
22:07 dukeleto quietfanatic: come talk to me if you hit speed issues, i am the parrot benchmark guy
22:08 quietfanatic Okay, I will when I get there
22:08 Tene rakudo: my $routine; say (:$routine).perl
22:08 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: "routine" => undef␤
22:08 Tene quietfanatic: what's wrong with that?
22:08 KyleHa joined #perl6
22:08 dukeleto quietfanatic: also, we are attempting to clean up our null pmc issues
22:08 quietfanatic "Symbol '&routine' not predeclared in <anonymous>"
22:08 quietfanatic when I clearly predeclared it.
22:09 dukeleto everytime someone uses p6eval, irssi craps itself. is p6eval sending out funny characters?
22:09 quietfanatic :&thing syntax doesn't work
22:09 Tene ah
22:09 Tene dukeleto: WFM
22:09 Tene dukeleto: it uses ␤
22:09 sjohnson weechat > irssi :)
22:10 dukeleto Tene: that is really pissing me off
22:10 Tene but weechat has an annoying name.
22:10 Tene dukeleto: eh?
22:10 Tene dukeleto: I was asking if that's the character that's causing problems.
22:10 sjohnson Tene: that is my one gripe about weechat... silly name
22:10 sjohnson otherwise pretty rocksolid *nix cli client
22:10 dukeleto Tene: all i see is line noise. YES. whatever you attempting to type, messes up my terminal
22:11 spinclad (need font?)
22:11 * dukeleto gotta go. keep it quantum, peeps
22:11 viklund joined #perl6
22:11 Tene I use irssi and I see it just fine.  encoding issues?
22:11 pmurias shachaf: why is weechat better?
22:11 Tene .u ␤
22:11 phenny U+2424 SYMBOL FOR NEWLINE (␤)
22:11 pmurias diakopter: hows you past interpreter doing?
22:11 sjohnson hey thats great
22:11 shachaf pmurias: Hmm, I'd be curious as to the answer to that. I've considered switching to another client.
22:12 sjohnson unicode bot
22:12 Tene .u NEWLINE
22:12 phenny U+2424 SYMBOL FOR NEWLINE (␤)
22:12 Tene phenny is very useful.
22:12 moritz_ indeed
22:12 TimToady sounds like your irssi (or screen) isn't properly in UTF-8 mode
22:13 pmurias shachaf: sorry, that was meant to be aimed at sjohnson
22:13 quietfanatic TimToady: Are there any plans in the future to standardize Perl 6's syntax tree?
22:13 diakopter pmurias: dunno..
22:13 quietfanatic say, for macros and modules to dink around with?
22:13 diakopter haven't worked on it in a day or two
22:13 shachaf pmurias: Yep. But I'd like to see the answer too. :-)
22:13 diakopter so, naturally, I've forgotten entirely about it
22:14 sjohnson pmurias: i would be happy to answer that question
22:14 sjohnson ... by screenshot :)
22:15 TimToady quietfanatic: it would be nice if our ASTs were well-typed, so even if there's more than one, we know which one it is
22:16 quietfanatic TimToady: If I could mess with the syntax tree, then I could, for instance, figure out how to reverse a reversible sub.
22:17 TimToady reverse on which level?
22:17 moritz_ except that the question if a sub is reversible is not computable (if you mean the same as I am)
22:17 quietfanatic reverse meaning flip the input and output
22:17 sjohnson pmurias: http://members.shaw.ca/smujohnson/img/weechat-screenshot.png
22:18 Tene insufficient unicorns and ponies.
22:18 quietfanatic like e(x) reverses to log(x), etc
22:18 sjohnson pmurias: this is 95% out of the box behaviour and look
22:18 Tene what's all that stuff on the sides of the chat?
22:18 sjohnson pmurias: scripts can be written in 5 scripting languages + C if you decide to
22:19 sjohnson Tene: channel list
22:19 pmurias sjohnson: colorfull nicks are nice
22:19 Tene ew
22:19 Tene I don't want that.
22:19 Tene and a user list too?
22:19 sjohnson Tene: colorful nicks make it a lot easier to read a multiway convo
22:19 sjohnson Tene: these are all easily disableable :)
22:19 sjohnson ctrl-N toggles my user list
22:20 Tene pmurias: http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/nickcolor.pl
22:20 quietfanatic s/e(x)/e^x/
22:21 pmurias quietfanatic: that's a very hard problem
22:21 pmurias unless you write your program using bijections only
22:22 TimToady such a program could run on a quantum computer with arbitrarily low energy requirements :)
22:23 TimToady since it's the forgetting that takes energy
22:23 moritz_ so we just need to simulate a quantum computer in polynomial time :-)
22:24 TimToady I saw a polynomial dance once...
22:24 mathw Quantum Perl
22:24 mathw that could be interesting
22:25 TimToady something that might interest both my sons :)
22:25 pmichaud "We've decided to change the name of Perl 6 to 'Future Perl'."
22:25 pmichaud :-)
22:25 TimToady Perl 5 is the "Once Perl"?
22:25 pmichaud "Alternate Reality Perl"
22:25 moritz_ or qperl for quantum perl
22:25 pmichaud or just qerl
22:25 PerlJam ARPerl?  ARP?
22:26 pmichaud although we did once consider "perm", since that's "perl".succ
22:26 quietfanatic pmurias: You could at least figure it out for compositions of unary functions known to be reversible
22:26 Whiteknight joined #perl6
22:26 PerlJam Quantum Perl wouldn't be a bad alternative to Perl 6 if ever we contemplated a name change  :)
22:26 TimToady the Perly Exclusion principle says you can't have Perl 5 and Perl 6 in the same spot
22:26 huf it's quite quantum as it is, with so many name-ideas floating around
22:26 diakopter mind your p'5 & q'5
22:27 TimToady ow, I can dish it out today, but I can't take it...
22:27 quietfanatic pmurias: er, right, bijections, that's what those are...
22:28 TimToady no sqrt for you, young man!
22:29 quietfanatic TimToady: Okay I'll just use ±sqrt instead.
22:29 sjohnson diakopter: :)
22:29 moritz_ you can reverse injective functions; they don't need to be bijective
22:29 TimToady Good News: I have solved your problem!  Bad News: The answer is a junction.
22:29 moritz_ :-)
22:30 sjohnson worse news:  won't be available till christmas
22:30 sjohnson ;)
22:30 quietfanatic .oO(or an autothreading set that you're *allowed* to pull values out of)
22:31 TimToady there's some kind of buzzing in my ear... :P
22:31 slavik will we have "for all (@list) { }" ?
22:32 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1..5; .say for all(@list)
22:32 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Symbol '@list' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/FMY7JkXig0:2)␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
22:32 TimToady slavik: hyper for @list { }
22:32 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1..5; .say for all(@a)
22:32 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: all(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)␤
22:32 quietfanatic rakudo: my @a = 1..5; say all(@a)
22:32 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: all(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)␤
22:33 slavik I mean the automatic multithreading type of for all
22:33 slavik I believe it was changed to something else
22:33 KyleHa rakudo: my $parse = Perl6::Grammar.parse( 'say "Hello world"' ); $parse.^methods().join('|').say
22:33 p6eval rakudo 7347ec:  ( no output )
22:33 moritz_ slavik: all() autothreads already
22:34 slavik who implemented it?
22:34 moritz_ rakudo: say 1+all(3,4)
22:34 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: all(4, 5)␤
22:34 moritz_ slavik: jnthn++ did
22:34 slavik jnthn: I <3 you!!!
22:35 TimToady since all() are really the only ones that are true sets, maybe we could let you get the values from an all
22:35 slavik *cough* I can haz assertions in grammer? *cough*
22:35 moritz_ slavik: in nqp-rx yes, in rakudo not yet
22:35 slavik nqp-rx ???
22:36 moritz_ the thing that rakudo's grammar and action methods are written in
22:36 slavik how does that get put into rakudo?
22:37 moritz_ ng: grammar A { token TOP { (\d+) <?{ +$0 < 256 }> } }; say A.parse('127')
22:37 p6eval ng 2a3149: Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1630 (src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:888)␤
22:37 moritz_ ng: grammar A { token TOP { (\d+) <?{ +$0 < 256 }> } }; say(A.parse('127'))
22:37 p6eval ng 2a3149: Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1630 (src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:888)␤
22:37 quietfanatic TimToady: Something to be said for that, namely this.
22:39 quietfanatic Of course, then people will want to say all(0..*) to get the set of natural numbers...
22:39 moritz_ std: grammar A { token TOP { (\d+) <?{ +$0 < 256 }> } }; say(A.parse('127'))
22:39 p6eval std 29132: ok 00:01 113m␤
22:39 moritz_ ng: grammar A { token TOP { (\d+) <?{ say($/) }> } }; say(A.parse('127'))
22:39 p6eval ng 2a3149: Method '!cursor_start' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: 'perl6;A;TOP' pc 194 (EVAL_1:91)␤
22:40 TimToady and note that none(0..*) is also an infinite set
22:40 moritz_ ng: grammar A { token TOP { (\d+) <?{ say('alive') }> } }; say(A.parse('127'))
22:40 p6eval ng 2a3149: Method '!cursor_start' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: 'perl6;A;TOP' pc 194 (EVAL_1:91)␤
22:40 TimToady but then, so is none(0)
22:40 moritz_ ng: grammar A { token TOP { (\d+) } }; say(A.parse('127'))
22:40 p6eval ng 2a3149: Method '!cursor_start' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'␤current instr.: 'perl6;A;TOP' pc 194 (EVAL_1:91)␤
22:42 quietfanatic TimToady: I'm wondering if a true mathematical set type wants to be implemented in terms of matchers, so that you can have things like that.
22:42 TimToady it's very easy to turn a set into a list, and a list into a junction
22:43 gbarr joined #perl6
22:43 TimToady especially if the set already has a % or @ sigil, then it's just any(%set) == $whatever
22:43 quietfanatic So you get Int for the set of integers, and Int&none(0) to get non-zero integers
22:43 TimToady assuming set types listify to only keys
22:44 quietfanatic but then you're back to junctions
22:44 quietfanatic Does any(%hash) only get the keys?
22:45 quietfanatic or is that special for a Keyset?
22:45 quietfanatic oh,you just answered that
22:45 TimToady Set types return only the keys, since the value is known to be 1
22:45 * quietfanatic is slow today
22:47 quietfanatic rakudo: class X {has &.routine}; X.new(:routine({say "x"})).routine.()
22:47 IllvilJa joined #perl6
22:47 TimToady and there's a reason subsets are called subsets
22:47 p6eval rakudo 7347ec:  ( no output )
22:48 quietfanatic ah, I suppose that's right
22:48 quietfanatic though you still can't call methods on them :(
22:48 moritz_ currently p6eval times out for everything that contains a class definition
22:48 TimToady you can, but you'll just get the method on the underlying object type
22:48 quietfanatic moritz_: is that what it is? Okay
22:48 quietfanatic yeah and that's rarely useful
22:49 moritz_ quietfanatic: I have no idea what it is or why, I just observe the symptoms
22:50 quietfanatic moritz_: Is it true for the machine p6eval is running on, or only for p6eval?
22:51 quietfanatic Anyway, the above code snippet prints nothing.
22:51 quietfanatic it doesn't call the routine
22:51 quietfanatic why doesn't it?
22:52 quietfanatic (I mean prints nothing locally as well)
22:54 quietfanatic ah, but:
22:54 quietfanatic saying .routine.().() does run it.
22:54 quietfanatic I think that first .() is interpreted as an argument list to the method call.
22:55 quietfanatic This is not what I expected.
22:55 jan_ joined #perl6
22:55 moritz_ quietfanatic: only in conjunction with evalbot - for example the spectests run fine on it
22:56 quietfanatic moritz_: huh.
22:57 quietfanatic s/is not what I expected/seems wrong to me/
22:58 TimToady wrong according to S12:441 too
22:58 moritz_ agreed on both
22:59 constant_ joined #perl6
23:02 BinGOs joined #perl6
23:02 quietfanatic rakudo: say.(3)
23:02 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: 3␤
23:03 quietfanatic I think this is the same issue.
23:04 pmurias did anyone have any succes with integrating vim with a debugger?
23:04 pmurias i'm thinking of adding debugging/tracing to mildew-js
23:06 PacoLinux joined #perl6
23:09 colomon TimToady: I need to head off to get dressed for a concert, but before I go -- do you think it's right for Range.Str to list all the elements in the Range?  That's Rakudo's old definition, but it seems odd to me for any Range with "more than a few elements" in it.
23:17 explorer joined #perl6
23:25 quietfanatic re eager void: for statement prefix, how about 'just'? :)
23:25 quietfanatic just do {...}
23:28 ihrd joined #perl6
23:30 mfollett joined #perl6
23:36 mfollett I have a question regarding Rakudo.  My understanding is that Parrot is moving to LLVM underpinnings.  If Parrot does that will Rakudo be able to JIT to GPUs?
23:39 diakopter mfollett: afaik, parrot is still only considering building llvm underpinnings.  However, I don't think a move to LLVM necessitates enabling "JIT to GPUs".
23:39 beggars joined #perl6
23:40 cotto_work joined #perl6
23:41 mfollett diakopter: Ok, thanks, I've seen some hand waving from other groups talking about using LLVM and I've been curious what it would really mean in the context of Rakudo, if anything.
23:42 mfollett diakopter:  It was making a lot of assumptions that didn't really seem reasonable, but I figured I'd ask around.
23:46 shachaf joined #perl6
23:47 mfollett left #perl6

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