Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-11-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 masak jnthn: yes, I think I knew that. now I knwo what it's called.
00:00 perigrin you can do that fairly trivially
00:00 perigrin just derive a new metaclass that does the confliciting metaclasses
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00:00 perigrin if they can't compose as Roles ... then throw an error and make the programmer manually intervene
00:00 jnthn perigrin: "do that"?
00:01 perigrin well in perl6 a Class can be treated as a Role no?
00:01 jnthn perigrin: Metaclass incompat problem, or composition applier compat problem?
00:01 perigrin metaclass incompat
00:01 perigrin sorry
00:01 jnthn Yes. I'm just not sure which properly you're proposing a solution to. ;-)
00:02 perigrin composition aplier compat ... that's I suspect always gonna be a manual process
00:02 perigrin though it may be possible you can use a similar solution there too
00:02 masak jnthn: cool AOP example!
00:02 jnthn Well, yes. If the trait comp paper brings anything out, it's that being too clever is a Bad Thing.
00:03 jnthn My main concern is working out how to flag up incompatibilities nicely.
00:03 jnthn On the metaclass compat issue
00:03 jnthn Yes, that's an interesting idea.
00:05 perigrin the thing about Clever is that it's additive
00:05 perigrin you can always add more clever later once you're sure you have a fallback position that orks
00:05 jnthn Well, yeah.
00:05 perigrin er "works"
00:06 perigrin you have no idea how long it took me to figure that out :)
00:06 jnthn For now "just forbid it" seems like the easy fallback position.
00:06 jnthn (For the applier compat one)
00:06 jnthn I'm actually also watching Moose's protocol. I read the docs and it appeared it's quite cnjectural for now.
00:06 jnthn Or at least prone to change.
00:07 perigrin yes
00:07 jnthn Do you know if anyone has built alternative application implementations yet?
00:07 jnthn And how it's panned out?
00:07 perigrin Ovid has a variation of them in Cpan
00:07 perigrin to make them more strict
00:07 jnthn I'm sure it'll be the first thing he does with the Perl 6 ones. ;-)
00:08 jnthn Anyway, the fact that somebody managed to do that is encouraging.
00:08 masak jnthn: IM IN UR S12. tell me again why .accessor shouldn't return the method itself?
00:08 jnthn masak: Well maybe it could, that's just not what it's spec'd to do...
00:09 perigrin jnthn: the fact someone couldn't do it before Ovid tried was a bug
00:09 masak spec'd where?
00:09 jnthn masak: Thus why has-accessor is a better name for the thing we do have.
00:09 perigrin :)
00:09 jnthn masak: erm, er, spectests are spec too right? ;-)
00:09 masak jnthn: do the spectests explicitly say that .accessor is Bool?
00:09 jnthn http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/spec/S12-introspection/attributes.t
00:09 jnthn Yes.
00:09 masak oh good.
00:10 masak I'll change those as well before I go to bed.
00:10 jnthn Cool.
00:10 Wolfman2000 frozen food...it can be useful.
00:10 jnthn Wolfman2000: I resorted to that tonight too.
00:10 Wolfman2000 I had Penne with White Chicken. Too little chicken
00:11 jnthn perigrin: Anyway, does metamodel.pod look something like a good start (obviously, with more filling out to come), or like an epic fail?
00:11 jnthn perigrin: If you didn't read it all yet, feel free to do so before answering. :-)
00:11 pugs_svn r29188 | masak++ | changed .accessor to .has-accessor on attribute descriptors
00:11 perigrin I skimmed it ... I think it looks like a good start
00:12 jnthn OK, that's good to hear.
00:12 Wolfman2000 jnthn: I just took a quick look...honestly, I found it a bit hard to understand.
00:12 perigrin the AOP example *is* quite nice
00:12 Wolfman2000 Then again, I'm somewhat used to this.
00:12 jnthn Wolfman2000: I wrote it and I found it hard to understand. :-)
00:14 * jnthn grabs a beer and blogs
00:14 masak jnthn: hah! -you- wrote that test file! :)
00:15 pugs_svn r29189 | masak++ | .accessor -> .has-accessor
00:16 jnthn masak: lol
00:16 masak Wolfman2000: it is hard to understand. I think I grok parts of it because I spent the weekend with jnthn. :)
00:17 masak I'm open to the possibility that .accessor was actually meant to return a method object, or similar. if so, I deserve to have my commits reverted, provided this is also explained in the spec.
00:18 jnthn masak: *nod*
00:19 jnthn masak: I'd rather go with has-accessor for now, and leave .accessor free to add that later.
00:19 masak http://createyourproglang.com/
00:19 masak jnthn: yes, but .accessor would have worked fine as both.
00:19 jnthn masak: Yes and no.
00:19 jnthn masak: We still need to supply has-constructor in the constructor call.
00:19 masak nothingmuch tweeted the above URL and wrote '- this is a joke, right?'
00:20 masak has-attribute, surely?
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00:20 perigrin in my world has-* is a predicate while * itself is an accessor for the thing
00:20 perigrin so has-accessor is a predicate and accessor() would be the accessor acceesor
00:20 jnthn masak: has-accessor even
00:20 masak jnthn: yes, but parameters can be rewired to other attributes.
00:20 jnthn :-)
00:21 jnthn masak: Well, yeah, the thing is that either way, we need to keep hold of the fact that we need to make an accessor around before we actually make one.
00:21 jnthn We can just keep it as a private attribute perhaps...
00:21 masak nod.
00:21 jnthn But I suspect for meta-programming, it may be useful to make it available.
00:21 masak jnthn: oh, I see now what you're saying!
00:21 masak we need to keep it around. yeah.
00:22 masak so .has-accessor it is.
00:22 masak maybe you should even make the parameter be typed Bool.
00:22 masak unless that is known to make life difficult for other HLLs.
00:23 jnthn masak: Slight bootstrapping issue. :-)
00:23 masak we can't use types in the MOP? :)
00:23 masak dang. :)
00:23 perigrin eh wha?
00:23 Wolfman2000 masak: ...why is that something to smile about?
00:24 masak Wolfman2000: recursion is fun!
00:24 jnthn masak: We probably need the Attribute meta-object available before we define Bool. ;-)
00:24 perigrin masak: where are you seeing that?
00:24 jnthn Well, maybe we don't.
00:24 jnthn :-)
00:24 perigrin you don't.
00:24 carlin .oO( To understand recursion you must first understand recursion )
00:24 masak and with that, I bid ye a good night.
00:24 Wolfman2000 carlin: how profound
00:25 jnthn masak: night!
00:25 * masak out
00:26 jnthn omg mst-ism! :-)
00:26 perigrin jnthn: a Bool wouldn't need to have any attributes
00:26 perigrin would it?
00:26 jnthn perigrin: Yeah, true.
00:26 jnthn I think.
00:26 jnthn :-)
00:26 jnthn Well
00:26 jnthn Hmm...I guess it needs some storage.
00:26 jnthn Am I true or am I false...
00:27 perigrin right
00:27 perigrin hmm
00:27 perigrin though
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00:27 perigrin Strange loop :)
00:27 jnthn We could always use the lower-level native types anyway I guess...apart from we don't implement those yet. :-/
00:27 jnthn Yes. :-)
00:27 perigrin Bool.HOW.attributes[0].accessor will need to be lazy :)
00:28 perigrin cause it returns a Bool :)
00:28 jnthn I can see this is going to be a bit of a headache when I get there, yes.
00:28 perigrin the Bootstrap layer is always painful
00:29 perigrin thats why you want to try to make it as small as possible
00:29 perigrin if you look at Class::MOP you'll see lots of places where things get re-defined and are initially defined as hard coded values
00:30 jnthn Yeah, I suspect it'll have to be something like that at first.
00:34 dalek november: 1c9a598 | (Jason Felds)++ | lib/November.pm:
00:34 dalek november: Quickie one-liner from login useful in register.
00:34 dalek november: review: http://github.com/viklund/november/commit/1c9a59850d0a6bc00e866496dd2f39076521483b
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01:03 zaslon loljnthnhazblogged! jnthn++ 'Laying the role meta-foundations': http://use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/39943?from=rss
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01:27 pugs_svn r29190 | lwall++ | [CORE] more nametweaking
01:27 pugs_svn r29190 | [STD] better messages on malformed/ambiguous quantifier ranges
01:27 pugs_svn r29190 | better message explaining all the things "undef" might really mean
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01:32 * jnthn -> sleep
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02:22 pugs_svn r29191 | lwall++ | [STD] catch old use of Object
02:22 pugs_svn r29191 | recommend use of new *.notdef method where appropriate
02:23 pugs_svn r29192 | lwall++ | [S32/Basics] add a .notdef convenience method for ease of writing *.notdef matchers
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02:32 JimmyZ Mu-- && ( Obj++ or Object++)
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02:48 JimmyZ ng: .say for 1..4
02:48 p6eval ng bf746a: Missing block at line 1, near ""␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
02:48 Tene see?
02:48 colomon JimmyZ: I'm not sure what's causing the grammar panic there, but 1..4 definitely doesn't work yet in ng.
02:49 JimmyZ I thought it worked.
02:49 JimmyZ ng: gather
02:49 p6eval ng bf746a: Could not find non-existent sub &gather␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
02:49 JimmyZ rakudo: gather
02:49 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: too few positional arguments: 0 passed, 1 (or more) expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
02:49 colomon Well, it constructs a Range all right, but the Range can't do anything useful yet.
02:50 Tene ng: my @a = gather for 1, 2, 3 { take $_ ** 2 }; say @a;
02:50 p6eval ng bf746a: 149␤
02:50 JimmyZ ng: gather
02:50 p6eval ng bf746a: Could not find non-existent sub &gather␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
02:50 JimmyZ ng: .say for 1,4
02:50 p6eval ng bf746a: Missing block at line 1, near ""␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
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03:13 Wolfman2000 Reminder needed. Do classes only have methods, or can they also have subs in them?
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06:28 diakopter WELCOME BACK AFTER YOUR UNFORTUNATE NETSPLIT
06:28 diakopter o hai
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06:28 TimToady voice lambdabot
06:28 diakopter the server added them back
06:28 JimmyZ TimToady: I also don't like the english computer language with some chinese words
06:28 TimToady hard to please, ain't ya?
06:29 diakopter Musers...
06:29 JimmyZ welcome
06:33 diakopter TimToady: about the caching idea
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06:34 TimToady while the language is still mutating, I'd rather not worry about cache coherency
06:34 TimToady also, I'd like to concentrate on getting first-run compilation fast
06:35 TimToady but long haul, it might be useful
06:35 diakopter that's why it's keyed on a hash of the grammar, too
06:35 quietfanatic MUtating.
06:35 TimToady I knew cats would come into it somewhere...
06:36 TimToady unless, of course, you pronounce it mootating
06:36 quietfanatic I just regret it's causing so much friction.
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06:37 diakopter rakudo: musubi # I'm hungry
06:37 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Could not find non-existent sub musubi␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
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06:53 pugs_svn r29194 | lwall++ | [t/] unify compartmentalized undef and Object concepts into Mu
06:53 pugs_svn r29194 | test suite now contains no mention of undef or Object tokens
06:53 pugs_svn r29194 | (expect temporary rakudo regressions till Mu and .notdef are added)
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06:58 Su-Shee good morning.
06:58 TimToady howdy
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07:10 sjohnson hi
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07:14 dalek nqp-rx: ef7eef0 | tene++ |  (3 files):
07:14 dalek nqp-rx: Basic implementation of CATCH and a test for try and catch.
07:14 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/ef7eef0b3a1a4180213c8c3d092305cc020b1b04
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07:42 flip123 Hello fellows!
07:42 flip123 Ready for some more questions?
07:42 Tene Hi!
07:42 Tene Yes!
07:42 flip123 Wow, such enthusiasm that early in the morning ...
07:43 flip123 With feeds, is there an easy and nice way to feed into "return"?
07:43 flip123 As in " ==> my @a; return @a" without the temporary variable?
07:43 Tene No idea.
07:44 flip123 I tried to write "return map {} ...." and so on, but this was the wrong flow direction and didn't look that good.
07:44 TimToady nobody implements even basic feeds yet, I don't think
07:45 flip123 Oh, the basics work ... or at least they seem to.
07:45 flip123 That gets me to the next question ...
07:45 TimToady but eventually you ought to be able to say ==> return @(*) or some such
07:45 flip123 OK, I'll try. Thank you.
07:45 TimToady or run it the other way, return <== source
07:48 flip123 Well, that didn't look so good in my case.
07:48 flip123 Next problem: more often than not I'm getting "Null PMC access" while my P6 scripts get compiled.
07:48 flip123 I suppose I could run perl6.pbc with parrot tracing on ... but what should I do with the multi-MB of logfile?
07:48 flip123 I'm not sure that I could identify relevant spots there.
07:48 TimToady you'd have to take that up with the rakudofolk
07:48 TimToady who are mostly asleep right now
07:48 flip123 well, I'll try again later .... that's what my "early in the morning" was about.
07:48 Tene flip123: The general answer is "try to reduce your script to a minimal case"
07:48 flip123 Thank you nonetheless.
07:48 flip123 Tene: I'm trying to re-write a C program with about 30K lines ...
07:48 Tene Which isn't a very helpful answer.
07:48 Tene :)
07:48 flip123 it's not that easy to identify the bad spot
07:49 flip123 that's why I'm asking here
07:49 Tene No, it really isn't.  Rakudo doesn't have good tools to help with that.
07:49 flip123 Mostly I get "file unknown, line unknown" - which doesn't help.
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07:50 flip123 Well, I'll be back later ...
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08:37 mathw Morning
08:37 Tene Hi!
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09:46 JimmyZ rakudo: (1 ? 'foo' : 'bar').say;
09:46 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Confused at line 2, near "? 'foo' : "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
09:49 mathw rakudo: (1 ?? 'foo' !! 'bar').say;
09:49 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: foo␤
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09:51 mberends mathw: any news about the $interviews?
09:53 mathw mberends: yes. They've invited me to their office for the final round.
09:54 mathw Which is exciting, and scary.
09:55 mberends great, I'm sure you'd be good for them, the question is just whether they know it too.
09:55 mathw It's all very well talking to them on the phone, but actually going to their office on their expense and meeting them in person to talk about jobs is rather more real.
09:55 mberends they're serious if they're making expenses. is it for from where you live?
09:56 mberends *far
10:00 mathw mberends: About a hundred and forty miles
10:00 mberends too much for a daily commute then
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10:17 mathw mberends: Definitely. This would involve moving.
10:17 mathw One-way travel time is about three hours
10:18 mathw However, moving offers certain opportunities, so it's not a bad thing... and it's an amazing job.
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10:59 jnthn oh hai
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11:11 mathw oh hai jnthn
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11:27 dalek november: c22af29 | masak++ | lib/November.pm:
11:27 dalek november: [November] the strings should be concatenated
11:27 dalek november: masak-- for causing this when breaking lines.
11:27 mathw It is quite quiet in here today
11:27 dalek november: review: http://github.com/viklund/november/commit/c22af299669b79ddb890905ed1c555e8d491cd1a
11:27 jnthn mathw: aye, it is
11:27 jnthn mathw: Noisy masak ain't here yet. ;)
11:27 mathw lol
11:27 mathw mberends was talking but drifted away
11:28 jnthn mathw: BTW, good luck for the final bit of the job interview.
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11:40 mathw jnthn: Thanks. It's actually, I believe, four interviews in one. Should be interesting.
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11:48 jnthn .oO( junction of interviews )
11:50 mathw Well, I think you'd have to use S& to combine them
11:50 mathw Because they're not going to happen concurrently
11:52 mathw It's fortunate that Larry added that metaoperator, so I have the right terminology to talk about my interviews in Perl 6
11:53 mathw Without having to resort to explicit looping
11:54 * mathw -> lunch
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12:14 flip123 Hello everybody!
12:15 flip123 It's me again, with some fresh questions ...
12:15 flip123 #1: what's the best way to diagnose "Null PMC access" while compiling my P6 scripts?
12:15 Su-Shee answer them while they're hot! ;)
12:16 * mberends drifts on
12:17 jnthn flip123: While compiling? That's...ocuh.
12:17 jnthn flip123: Do you get a backtrace at all?
12:17 flip123 Well, maybe running, but --trace=65535 doesn't help
12:17 flip123 This here:
12:17 flip123 Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()
12:17 flip123 in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)
12:18 flip123 doesn't help that much, does it?
12:18 jnthn Nope.
12:18 jnthn I normally go and comment out the Rakudo error handler in situations like this.
12:18 flip123 This is with "PERL6LIB=lib perl6 --output=/tmp/a.pir --target=pir <input file>"
12:19 jnthn Find the line push_eh trap and pop_eh shortly after it in perl6.pir, comment them out and re-build your Rakudo.
12:19 jnthn That'll give you the "internal" stack trace instead.
12:19 flip123 in the .sub eval method?
12:19 jnthn Yeah
12:19 flip123 push_eh trap_errors
12:19 jnthn right, that one.
12:19 jnthn and below it a pop_eh
12:20 flip123 got them
12:20 flip123 but this perl6.pir will be overwritten as soon as the next "git pull" gives me something, right?
12:20 flip123 Oh well
12:20 flip123 now compiling
12:20 * flip123 is happy about 2GB ram for perl6 compilation
12:21 jnthn flip123: Well, it'll probably complain next time you git pull about the file being modified.
12:24 flip123 That gives me this:
12:24 flip123 Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()
12:24 flip123 current instr.: 'parrot;Parrot;Compiler;load_library' pc 29 (/home/flip/perl/p6_parrot/rakudo/parrot/runtime/parrot/languages/parrot/parrot.pir:16)
12:24 flip123 called from Sub 'use' pc 17983 (src/builtins/eval.pir:146)
12:24 flip123 called from Sub 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;Actions;_block867' pc 330281 (src/gen_setting.pir:68143) (src/gen_setting.pm:429)
12:24 flip123 called from Sub 'perl6;Perl6;Grammar;Actions;_block704' pc 329125 (src/gen_setting.pir:67763) (src/gen_setting.pm:375)
12:24 flip123 and a lot more
12:25 flip123 doesn't help *me* in any way, TBH
12:26 jnthn Means it's a "use" statement that's leading to the crash.
12:27 flip123 Yes, that's what it says. But not any file or line number. And now? Can I help someone diagnose that further?
12:35 pmurias joined #perl6
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12:45 * flip123 says thank you
12:46 bluescreen joined #perl6
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12:50 ejs2 joined #perl6
12:53 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning
12:57 masak joined #perl6
12:57 masak good somewhat-later-in-the-day, #perl6.
12:58 Wolfman2000 masak: I'm debating/thinking of putting the owrk I did on my Perl 5 written pastebin onto github. Thoughts?
12:58 masak Wolfman2000: online code is almost always a good thing.
12:58 masak then it has a URL.
13:00 Wolfman2000 ...when is it not a good thing?
13:00 masak don't know, really. at worst, it might be a waste of github. but in your case, it sounds like it might come in handy.
13:01 masak your data model, for example. I might want to look at it when I do the Perl 6 version.
13:01 Wolfman2000 masak: The frustrating part is really related to Syntax::Highlight::Perl6. I'm starting to wonder if it would be better to just make our own parser or something...valid code won't parse.
13:02 masak Wolfman2000: I think basing the highligter off STD.pm is the way to go.
13:02 Wolfman2000 ...something else is bothering me. November is hosted on github. I have a feeling github doesn't provide web hosting. How does that work?
13:02 masak Wolfman2000: you know about feather?
13:02 Wolfman2000 masak: I think that's what S::H::P6 does...either that, or it provides its own
13:02 Wolfman2000 masak: Yes, I have an account
13:02 masak oh right.
13:02 masak I run it from there.
13:03 masak Wolfman2000: yes, S::H::P6 runs on top of STD.pm.
13:04 Wolfman2000 ...it's just compiling STD.pm that's a pain, that's all.
13:05 masak it's a smaller pain than rolling your own parser...
13:05 Wolfman2000 masak: Then I kind of want S::H::P6 to be updated. I'm unsure if that will take place
13:06 masak far as I know, either azawawi or szabgab tends to that module.
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13:12 Wolfman2000 ...still torn honestly, but I may be able to go through with it
13:14 mberends good morning/afternoon! both azawawi and szabgab maintain S::H::P6 regularly, but the take a snapshot of STD.pm (which changes almost daily)
13:14 mberends *they take
13:15 Wolfman2000 mberends: so on Feather, I should ./gimme5 a lot?
13:15 Wolfman2000 or at least daily?
13:15 mberends Wolfman2000: yes, if the latest changes affect *your* Perl 6 source code
13:16 colomon mberends: I thought it was actually quite some time since S::H::P6 updated to match STD.pm...
13:17 mberends colomon: maintenance does tend to go in bursts.  It's one thing to change STD.pm, another to render it beautifully
13:17 Wolfman2000 ...and once again, there's a way for me to run ./gimme5, but I'm not doing it right
13:18 mberends 'make' in pugs/src/perl6
13:18 * Wolfman2000 always forgets that comes first.
13:18 Wolfman2000 okay...once this makes, do I have to copy STD.pm somewhere for it to be recognized by Perl 5?
13:19 Wolfman2000 ...also, am I supposed to clear either my Perl5 or Perl6 variables first?
13:20 mberends shouldn't be necessary. you will get a STD.pm5 and STD.pmc file
13:20 payload joined #perl6
13:20 Wolfman2000 ...funny...when I clear PERL5LIB beforehand, I don't get any errors on the make
13:20 Wolfman2000 well, no SORRY errors at least
13:21 Wolfman2000 only error I get is this: rm: cannot remove `CORE.syml.store': No such file or directory  But this is ignored
13:21 mberends that error is harmless
13:22 masak mberends! \o/
13:22 Wolfman2000 PERL5LIB='' make worked: potential difficulties include not being able to locate the DEBUG, NAME, and Stash modules
13:22 jeremiah OH HAI
13:22 masak jeremiah! \o/
13:22 mberends masak: \o/
13:22 jeremiah masak: :)
13:22 mberends !
13:23 colomon joined #perl6
13:23 Wolfman2000 mberends: my normal PERL5LIB path includes pugs/src/perl6. At this point, Syntax::Highlight::Perl6 should work, correct?
13:26 jeremiah Shouldn't one use PERL*6*LIB for stuff like that? Not that it really matters I suppose.
13:26 jeremiah But don't other configure scripts look for that var?
13:28 mberends Wolfman2000: dunno really, my own scripts all work without PERL5LIB
13:28 mberends jeremiah: the thing is, S::H::P6 is written in Perl 5
13:29 jeremiah Ah, okay. :)
13:29 * jeremiah goes back to lurking. :)
13:31 masak lurking is a time-honored tradition here on #perl6. :)
13:32 * mberends "lurked" offline most of the last 2 weeks, reading irclogs ;)
13:33 masak that's pretty advanced lurking.
13:33 masak you don't even show up on the radar. :)
13:35 Su-Shee lurkers anonymous.
13:35 jeremiah Well, in that case, I've been lurking here for years.
13:35 jeremiah Offline lurking of course.
13:36 mberends irclog.perlgeek.de is a wonderful thing. even works on a mobile phone # moritz_++
13:37 mberends when masak++ calls it an addiction, he's right
13:38 masak other people read the newspaper for breakfast. I read the #perl6 backlog.
13:38 mberends :-) ditto
13:39 masak overall, much better news. :)
13:39 jeremiah Still a lot of 'die'ing though . . .
13:39 mberends news about the future instead of the past
13:39 masak jeremiah: yes, but we CATCH some of them in time.
13:39 quantumEd joined #perl6
13:40 jeremiah I knew you'd TRY something like that
13:40 bloonix joined #perl6
13:40 masak it's the LAST time, I promise!
13:40 jeremiah NEXT!
13:40 mberends *groan*
13:40 Wolfman2000 ...perl puns. great
13:40 masak if we had labels, it'd be NEXT joke.
13:41 masak er, or 'next JOKE', rather.
13:41 jeremiah .punning FTW
13:42 masak jeremiah: Perl has always been about punning. it's even built into the operators.
13:43 jeremiah Yeah, one suspects that TimToady guy has a sense of humor and knows a bit about language.
13:44 riffraff joined #perl6
13:47 masak Perl: taking puns seriously.
13:48 jnthn Srsly?
13:49 jnthn :-)
13:50 jeremiah jnthn: \0/
13:50 jeremiah (just greeting you like all the cool kids do.)
13:50 sjn o/
13:50 sjn \o
13:50 Wolfman2000 jeremiah: the greeting is usually \o/
13:50 sjn \o/
13:50 sjn \o>
13:50 jnthn jeremiah: The cool kids have smaller heads though.
13:51 sjn <o/
13:51 jnthn ;-)
13:51 masak \☺/
13:51 jnthn Show-off!
13:51 masak jnthn: so I'm 'noisy', am I? :)
13:51 * masak backlogs
13:51 sjn what, no utf-8 hands? :-P
13:51 jeremiah lol
13:51 jnthn masak: I'd never say such a thing.
13:51 jnthn ;-)
13:52 masak sjn: ☜☺☞
13:52 BinGOs joined #perl6
13:52 masak jnthn: I derive some consolation from the fact that I've also been known to write some code.
13:52 jeremiah Those look more like crutches than hands.
13:52 mathw mberends: Oh so that's where you'd been.
13:52 sjn hey, it's BinGOs! :)
13:52 masak BinGOs! \o/
13:53 jeremiah I know him!
13:53 jeremiah We met at YAPC::EU 2007 I think
13:53 BinGOs you crazy people
13:53 jeremiah w00t
13:53 Wolfman2000 sjn: I'll give you a utf-8 hand. ☝
13:53 masak and he talks!
13:53 * sjn offered BinGOs a free trip to Oslo once, and he declined o_O
13:54 masak Wolfman2000: yeah, the ceiling in here should really be repainted, you're right.
13:54 jeremiah Is that you Salve?
13:54 sjn <- Salve
13:54 jeremiah Aha!
13:54 jeremiah w00t
13:54 BinGOs and you'll never let me forget it will you.
13:54 jeremiah Sheesh, I know a bunch o folk here.
13:54 jeremiah Drinks for all my friends!
13:54 sjn BinGOs: yeah, I'm still a little miffed about that
13:54 jnthn \o/
13:54 slavik joined #perl6
13:55 * BinGOs weeps gently.
13:55 masak hugme: hug BinGOs
13:55 * hugme hugs BinGOs
13:55 slavik ...
13:56 iblechbot joined #perl6
14:00 * jnthn could use a drink right now...after just discovering an SQL query with raw unvalidated unescaped formdata being interpolated into it... *sigh*
14:01 BinGOs_ joined #perl6
14:02 masak wonder if a government will ever be overthrown due to an SQL injection.
14:02 perigrin joined #perl6
14:02 mathw hugme: hug jnthn
14:02 * hugme hugs jnthn
14:03 * ruoso hopes PHP with register_globals and magic_quotes to be ruled illegal then
14:03 payload joined #perl6
14:03 Wolfman2000 ruoso: I believe PHP 6, when it comes, will disable the magic quotes and register globals functions
14:04 Wolfman2000 Anyway, I'm going semi afk...I want to knock out as much homework as I can now before I think about my fun stuff today.
14:11 colomon_ joined #perl6
14:11 * pmurias thinks about writing Acme::CGI::magic_quotes
14:13 mathw purpose?
14:21 colomon joined #perl6
14:27 colomon_ joined #perl6
14:34 pmurias mathw: Acme modules are supposed to be useless
14:35 sjn masak: it's a module that gives you all kinds of Magic quotes (e.g. "Sim sala bim!" or "Abrakadabra!")
14:35 masak sjn: mis-tab? mathw?
14:35 * sjn thought that was obvious
14:35 sjn ah :)
14:35 sjn yep :)
14:36 * masak wants such magic quotes
14:37 mathw ah
14:37 mathw I see
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14:59 moritz_ re
14:59 colomon joined #perl6
15:00 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:02 jnthn morning, pmichaud
15:02 payload joined #perl6
15:06 ejs joined #perl6
15:08 masak morning, pm.
15:09 * Wolfman2000 is glad that this assignment is at least a semi fun one...
15:09 Wolfman2000 I get to make a movie with iMovie. :D
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16:01 frettled pmichaud: good localtime()
16:01 cognominal pmichaud++,  jnthn++  # thx for you blogs
16:02 pmichaud frettled: good localtime()
16:07 sjohnson rakudo:  say localtime().perl
16:07 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Could not find non-existent sub localtime␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
16:08 moritz_ rakudo: say time
16:08 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: 1259164722.05861␤
16:09 sjohnson hello masak good 2 see u
16:09 masak sjohnson: very good to see you too.
16:09 sjohnson moritz_: time is now a constant thing?
16:10 sjohnson no more cpan dependencies for simple time?
16:10 sjohnson rakudo:  say time.WHAT
16:10 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Num()␤
16:10 sjohnson if so, great
16:10 sjohnson ( `ー´)
16:10 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say time
16:11 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: 1259164900.63664␤
16:11 Wolfman2000 ...right. How DO you format this sucker?
16:12 masak Wolfman2000: you might want to check my Temporal-flux project.
16:12 Wolfman2000 masak: right now taking care of my homework
16:13 masak right, no problem.
16:14 pmurias homework--
16:20 colomon_ joined #perl6
16:21 Wolfman2000 pmurias: And what do you normally do in the day?
16:29 snearch_ joined #perl6
16:34 TimToady hmm, planetsix seems to be hung
16:34 masak was it something I blogged? :/
16:34 jnthn masak overloaded it!
16:34 TimToady maybe it's slashdotted :)
16:35 Wolfman2000 almost done with my movie assignment...
16:35 pmurias Wolfman2000: studing cs
16:36 Wolfman2000 pmurias: computer science? Sounds like the path I took. Where are you going?
16:37 pmurias University of Wrocław, Poland
16:37 Wolfman2000 Not familiar with that...symbol between c and a
16:37 Wolfman2000 Looks like a cursive t
16:38 Su-Shee it's similar to a w like in "what"
16:39 pmurias Wolfman2000: ł is a modified l
16:40 Wolfman2000 ah
16:40 pmurias it's pronouced the way Su-Shee wrote
16:40 Wolfman2000 l = w?
16:41 frettled TimToady: perlcabal.org is apparently struggling, too.
16:42 frettled masak: I'm cooking up a new blog post about time handling in Perl 6, I thought I'd briefly compare the spec with Rakudo's current implementation with Temporal-flux's ideas
16:42 BinGOs joined #perl6
16:42 Su-Shee pmurias: my personal favorite is the politician Zbigniew Brzeziński to pronounce. ;)
16:43 masak frettled: cool!
16:43 perigrin_ joined #perl6
16:43 masak frettled: I'm sure you'll think of things I haven't considered.
16:43 jnthn Su-Shee: Ouch...I just tried and my tongue broke.
16:43 jnthn :-)
16:44 frettled masak: I'll try to keep the general framework for now, not really the specifics.
16:44 Wolfman2000 one version of my movie has been exported... m4v file, 24 megs for about 4 minutes. Is that a decent size?
16:46 cognominal joined #perl6
16:47 frettled jnthn: Try «ɡvbrdɣvnis» (Kartvelian for «he's plucking us»)  ;)
16:47 masak very useful phrase.
16:47 frettled Yes, now you know what to say when you're in a specific part of Georgia.
16:48 Su-Shee cute v-like letter with the sling.. :)
16:48 frettled Su-Shee: there's more cuteness in the article I stole it from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_cluster#Consonant_clusters_crosslinguistically
16:49 frettled But we should be careful, or TimToady will use some of this somewhere in the spec.
16:49 Wolfman2000 frettled: and what's wrong with that?
16:49 frettled «not that there's anything wrong with that»
16:50 Su-Shee oh, I don't mind, I'm from the humanities department anyway..
16:50 frettled oh, the humanity!
16:50 * jnthn finally finishes the bug-fixing rampage in a codebase he hates hacking on...which he'd managed to procrastinate for 3 months.
16:51 jnthn Now I can do Rakudo stuff. \o/
16:51 arnsholt joined #perl6
16:51 masak \o/
16:51 kst` joined #perl6
16:51 arnsholt masak: Thank you ^^
16:51 Su-Shee the context stuff was the first thing I understood when I learned programming (with perl.) "of course everything has a context, how couldn't it.."
16:51 frettled jnthn: yay
16:52 masak arnsholt: we've been waiting all day for you. :)
16:52 arnsholt =D
16:54 masak frettled++ # 'he had in his possession a bunchberry plant'
16:54 masak frettled: that article rocks! :)
16:55 mofino joined #perl6
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17:01 ng_feed joined #perl6
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Get us building signatures for subs/methods/role bodies lazily.
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Various tweaks to make sure we're getting as far as properly requesting the role applier.
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: First cut of role to class application. Very incomplete, but works for applying methods from a single role, and shows things flow through the overall model correctly.
17:01 moritz_ turns out ng_feed died whenever the connection to github was dodgy
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Fill out collision and requirement handling a bit. Note that we do it all ourselves - later, we'll track enough to give better errors, but also it'll make it easier to totally drop basing this of Parrot's Role PMC in the future.
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: masak++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Merge branch 'ng' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into ng
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Write Perl6::Metamodel::RoleToClassApplier in NQP instead of PIR. Yay!
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: masak++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Merge branch 'ng' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into ng
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: masak++
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: [docs/metamodel.pod] rw review
17:01 ng_feed rakudo-ng: KyleHa++
17:02 ng_feed rakudo-ng: S14-roles/namespaced.t passes now
17:02 ng_feed rakudo-ng: (mberends)++
17:02 ng_feed rakudo-ng: [docs/metamodel.pod] minor typo and layout corrections
17:02 KyleHa ng_feed playing catch-up?
17:02 TimToady combining the ++ lines with the following line would cut the number of lines in about half
17:03 moritz_ KyleHa: yes
17:05 moritz_ TimToady: good idea... but programming is hard, I need to go shopping first :-)
17:06 Wolfman2000 moritz_: what's ng_feed programmed in?
17:06 TimToady programming would be easier if you used a good language :)
17:06 moritz_ ng: say (1, 2, 3).join('|')
17:06 p6eval ng af3d38: 1|2|3␤
17:06 moritz_ Wolfman2000: Perl 5 + POE
17:06 Wolfman2000 I've used Perl 5...I don't recall POE.
17:07 KyleHa Perl 5 IS a good language!
17:07 moritz_ Wolfman2000: POE is a framework for asynchrone calls
17:07 moritz_ "cooperative threading"
17:08 Wolfman2000 I wonder if Perl 6 has that built in
17:08 moritz_ it hasn't
17:09 moritz_ (and shouldn't)
17:09 TimToady well, ==> could be viewed as an event queue
17:11 dbrock` does Perl 6 support constructors for roles?
17:11 * moritz_ thought ==> was just syntactic sugar for some function calls
17:11 TimToady ==> implies threading
17:11 TimToady just like | implies processes in shell
17:11 moritz_ so it's hyper?
17:12 TimToady no, it's pipeline
17:12 TimToady like the difference between a SIMD machine and a Cell processor
17:12 TimToady hyper is SIMD
17:12 TimToady ==> is cell
17:12 moritz_ dbrock`: since roles can't be instantiated directly, I'm not sure what to make of your questions
17:12 moritz_ *question
17:13 moritz_ dbrock`: you can write a constructor in a role, and the class you compose the role into can use it
17:13 TimToady dbrock`: it supports lazy initializer values with closures that can be called when the role eventually participates in a real object
17:14 TimToady see WHENCE in the specs
17:14 * moritz_ really goes to the shops
17:15 masak swimming &
17:16 KyleHa @in ==> map { step1() } ==> map { step2() }
17:16 lambdabot Maybe you meant: index instances instances-importing id wn
17:16 rjh_ joined #perl6
17:16 KyleHa So is it possible for some calls to step2() to happen before some calls to step1() ?
17:17 colomon joined #perl6
17:17 jnthn KyleHa: Yes.
17:18 jnthn KyleHa: Well, not for the dependent values.
17:18 KyleHa Right.
17:18 KyleHa Far out.
17:18 KyleHa ...and if I want to avoid that, I use "S==>" instead, right?
17:18 jnthn KyleHa: But basically, that's start two threads or something like that.
17:18 jnthn I'm not sure ==> are operators...
17:18 jnthn std: my @in; @in S==> map { step1() } S==> map { step2() }
17:19 p6eval std 29194: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Can't sequence ==> because sequencer operators are too fiddly at /tmp/yHNAf7im2f line 1:␤------> [32mmy @in; @in S==>[33m⏏[31m map { step1() } S==> map { step2() }[0m␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤
17:19 KyleHa That answers that, thanks.  8-)
17:19 jnthn Last time I was told I was too fiddly was back at primary school. :-)
17:20 KyleHa Is there to be a facility somewhere to limit the number of threads one might spawn?  Say I have a really long chain of ==>, but I never want more threads than cores.
17:22 jnthn Well, S17 is as good a thread spec as we have at the moment, so if it doesn't say something on that, then the answer is currently unspec.
17:22 KyleHa OK, thanks.
17:22 jnthn I'd really like to be able to play with getting threading stuff into Rakudo. It'll almost certainly not happen until next year really though.
17:23 mberends joined #perl6
17:23 jnthn It'd be really -Ofun to play with that stuff though. :-)
17:24 zamolxes joined #perl6
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17:52 moritz_ rakudo: 1 ==> 2
17:53 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Feed operators are not yet implemented in Rakudo, sorry␤in sub
17:54 * moritz_ is scared of running spectest in master
17:56 payload joined #perl6
17:56 jnthn moritz_: What's to fear? :-)
17:56 Wolfman2000 it takes awhile to run perhaps jnthn?
17:56 Wolfman2000 Also, not all of the spec tests pass
17:57 moritz_ jnthn: lots of fallout
17:58 moritz_ from the s/undef//g and s/Object/Mu/g changes
17:58 jnthn moritz_: Ah.
17:58 moritz_ so far 10 tests run, 4 are "Dubious"
17:59 Wolfman2000 ...ah yes. 無
17:59 * Wolfman2000 likes his IME for the most part.
18:03 Wolfman2000 What's next? 祭無?
18:04 Wolfman2000 bonus points to whoever knows the kanji
18:06 dbrock` moritz_: the "instantiation" of a role is an "object part", and it's often useful to initialize that part before it's used
18:07 jnthn "object part"?
18:07 moritz_ what is an "object part"?
18:07 dbrock` a bunch of attributes
18:07 jnthn dbrock`: Yes, but you can't instantiate a role. It puns into a class if you try.
18:07 gbacon joined #perl6
18:08 jnthn dbrock`: Then you get the same semantics as if you'd defined the attributes in the class.
18:08 dbrock` if I have class A does R, and then say A.new, then A's constructor is invoked
18:08 dbrock` I want R's constructor to be invoked as well
18:09 dbrock` TimToady: (thanks, by the way; I'm not ignoring your answer, I just didn't fully understand it)
18:09 jnthn dbrock`: Where "R's constructor" means...?
18:09 moritz_ dbrock`: roles are flattened into classes
18:10 moritz_ dbrock`: so any constructor is flattened into the class too
18:10 jnthn dbrock`: Constructors into Perl 6 are nothing more special than methods that happen to call bless.
18:10 dbrock` jnthn: a routine that sets up R's part of the object
18:10 jnthn *in
18:10 dbrock` all the superclass constructors will be called automatically, right?
18:10 KyleHa Nonexistent sub Mu, method 'notdef' not found...
18:11 jnthn dbrock`: Superclass BUILD methoeds will be called automatically.
18:11 jnthn dbrock`: Again: Perl 6 doesn't have constructors that are any more special than a method that calls bless.
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18:11 jnthn dbrock`: The name "new" isn't at all special.
18:12 dbrock` okay, so maybe by "constructor" I mean "BUILD method"?
18:12 jnthn dbrock`: Perhaps, yes.
18:12 jnthn dbrock`: I'm really not sure how they get handled with respect to roles though.
18:12 dbrock` I don't really consider A.new to be a constructor; I would maybe call it a factory method or something
18:12 jnthn dbrock`: I mean, again, they're just methods, so subject to flattening composition again.
18:12 jnthn dbrock`: So not quite sure off hand how to do what you're after.
18:13 jnthn dbrock`: Of course, anything you write as the RHS of a "has $.x = ..." in a role will be run.
18:13 dbrock` okay, so I guess if I put a BUILD method into R, then it will get run automatically upon object construction?
18:13 jnthn dbrock`: Not under current semantics.
18:13 dbrock` okay
18:13 jnthn dbrock`: Under current semantics it'll be ignored iff the class has a BUID.
18:13 dbrock` oh, so there can only be one BUILD?
18:13 jnthn dbrock`: and conflict with a BUILD provided by other roles if they provide one.
18:14 jnthn dbrock`: Yeah, that's the issue. It's just a (sub)method
18:14 dbrock` I see
18:14 dbrock` hmm
18:14 jnthn hmm indeed. :-)
18:14 dbrock` that seems... bad
18:14 * jnthn wonders what TimToady meant by WHENCE.
18:15 jnthn dbrock`: Yeah, it'd be nice if we had a good solution for that.
18:16 moritz_ is there a reason why a class can't have two BUILD methods?
18:17 jnthn moritz_: I don't really get the question.
18:17 jnthn moritz_: I mean, it's exactly the same as "is there any reason why a class can't have to X methods?"
18:17 dbrock` I guess the real question is, "what if a class could have multiple copies of the same method?"
18:17 moritz_ jnthn: are there multi-submethods?
18:17 jnthn moritz_: There are.
18:18 jnthn Well
18:18 jnthn I guess there are. :-)
18:18 jnthn Not quite sure we handle those completely right yet.
18:18 moritz_ and I think BUILDALL should just call all matching BUILD submethods
18:18 jnthn moritz_: I guess if we get people to mark their BUILD as multi or introduce a proto method BUILD in their class, then the ones from roles would merge.
18:18 moritz_ (with .* )
18:19 jnthn Well, .* needs a bit of care, since it also walks the hierarchy.
18:19 jnthn But some mechanism like that, yes.
18:19 jnthn That's the best I can think of right now.
18:19 TimToady see S12:2086
18:20 * TimToady will be offline for the next 7-8 hours
18:22 jnthn TimToady: I know that section, I'm just not quite clear how exactly it applies here, since we don't really ever do any auto-vivification, that's all.
18:22 jnthn TimToady: OK, catch you later. :-)
18:22 jnthn (We don't auto-viv when composing the role into a class, I meant.)
18:22 TimToady BUILD autovivifies role's WHENCE blobs
18:23 TimToady by incorporating them into the arguments
18:23 jnthn OK...what does attachign a WHENCE block to a role look like
18:24 jnthn role Foo { has $.x; is WHENCE { x => 42 }; }
18:24 jnthn maybe s/is/will/...
18:24 TimToady it's not attached to the role, it's just another arg to .bless
18:24 TimToady FOO{ :x(42) } or some such
18:25 TimToady *foo
18:25 TimToady *Foo
18:25 jnthn TimToady: Ah. I think the issue here is that dbrock` wants to write something insdie the role body that will get run at BUILD-time.
18:25 TimToady gah
18:25 jnthn *inside
18:25 jnthn Every time, not just on a particular invocation.
18:25 jnthn If I understand correctly, we'd pass that Foo{ :x(42) } in the call to new/bless?
18:26 TimToady at one time we had role's BUILD methods called automatically as part of class's build, not sure where that went
18:26 TimToady yes
18:26 jnthn OK, that makes sense to me.
18:27 jnthn It's just not quite the answer to the problem at hand. Calling role's BUILD methods automatically is...well...awkward in that the effect of the role on the class should be over by composition time really...ordinarily, dispatch doesn't go looking inside roles.
18:27 jnthn I guess we can work out some way to have them all called though.
18:28 TimToady Wolfman2000: I can read the kanji, but that doesn't mean I understand what "festival emptiness" means...
18:28 Wolfman2000 the festival of nothing/festival of emptiness
18:28 Wolfman2000 or the empty festival
18:28 jnthn Nobody attended. :-)
18:28 Wolfman2000 ...and thus, my joke got hijoked
18:29 Wolfman2000 jnthn++: bravo
18:30 jnthn ng: Nil
18:30 p6eval ng af3d38:  ( no output )
18:30 jnthn ng: say Nil
18:30 p6eval ng af3d38: ␤
18:30 TimToady that's okay, I think
18:30 moritz_ ng: say Nil.perl
18:30 p6eval ng af3d38: ()␤
18:30 moritz_ no objetions here either
18:31 jnthn erm
18:31 TimToady well, off we go &
18:31 jnthn ...the PIR that Nil generates looks...
18:31 jnthn ng: say Nil.WHAT
18:31 p6eval ng af3d38: List()␤
18:31 jnthn oh, Nil is a sub...
18:32 * jnthn was doin it rong.
18:32 dbrock` something is actually called Mu?
18:33 Wolfman2000 dbrock`: Mu is the new undef
18:34 dbrock` haha, okay
18:34 dbrock` awesome
18:39 jnthn ng: my @x = 1,2,3; say @x.elems;
18:39 p6eval ng af3d38: 3␤
18:39 moritz_ ng: my @x = 1, 2, 3; say @x.perl
18:40 moritz_ that hangs, dang
18:40 p6eval ng af3d38:  ( no output )
18:40 jnthn :-(
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18:51 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
18:51 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Start to fill out role to role application, including flagging up conflicts. Sort of works, but it appears that some issue in push and another issue prevent the conflict analysis working out properly just yet.
18:53 moritz_ jnthn: in master, where is class Object defined?
18:53 dalek nqp-rx: 7387be6 | tene++ |  (3 files):
18:53 dalek nqp-rx: Add CONTROL blocks
18:53 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/7387be6cd758a37d883c6b3f475d8cda11a448dd
18:54 moritz_ I tried to change it to Mu, but I get "Parent isn't a Class." errors from perl6;ClassHOW;onload
18:54 jnthn moritz_: Ouch
18:54 jnthn moritz_: Well, there's references to it all over the place.
18:54 moritz_ $P1 = get_hll_global 'Mu'
18:54 moritz_ $P1 = p6meta.'get_parrotclass'($P1)
18:54 moritz_ addparent $P0, $P1
18:54 jnthn It's sometimes known as Perl6Object in lower-level bits too.
18:55 moritz_ the addparent dies
18:55 jnthn That's kinda odd.
18:55 moritz_ so I suspect that Mu isn't set up properly as a class
18:55 moritz_ hm
18:56 jnthn Yeah, it could be a non-fun change.
18:56 jnthn moritz_: tbh
18:56 jnthn moritz_: I'd just do something somewhere on startup that does somethin glike
18:56 moritz_ I guess it's called Perl6Object in the low level stuff because Object is already known in parrot?
18:56 jnthn $P0 = get_hll_global 'Object'
18:56 jnthn set_hll_global 'Mu', $P0
18:56 jnthn Just to alias it.
18:56 jnthn That should get a bunch of the tests back.
18:56 moritz_ I'll try that instead, thanks
18:57 jnthn And also, importantly, give the userbase chance to migrate.
19:00 * jnthn afk for a little bit
19:11 dalek nqp-rx: ae0666c | tene++ | t/nqp/44-try-catch.t:
19:11 dalek nqp-rx: Update test plan
19:11 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/ae0666cf489a209c1aa2bffb1a829ce689a3b146
19:13 dalek rakudo: 2eb38b5 | moritz++ | perl6.pir:
19:13 dalek rakudo: alias Object and Mu, as suggested by jnthn++; wins us back quite a few tests
19:13 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2eb38b5bf07f1c4392a9d1d75f3fd1cf7d877105
19:14 szabgab just for the record azawawi is doing   S::H::P6 but he seem to be busy with other stuff lately, we have not seen him on #padre for a while
19:15 slavik joined #perl6
19:16 Su-Shee hi szabgab.
19:16 pjcj joined #perl6
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19:31 dalek rakudo: 2fc0a98 | moritz++ | src/setting/Object.pm:
19:31 dalek rakudo: implement Object.notdef
19:31 dalek rakudo: This wins us back most spectests. Most remaining failures are related to
19:31 dalek rakudo: autovivification returning Failure, not Mu.
19:31 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2fc0a9886f310a560c7d0449fa272b7baac0c8a5
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19:36 Wolfman2000 phenny: tell Juerd I wonder how easy it is to upgrade Git, or if I should just install a local copy without doing the make install step.
19:36 phenny Wolfman2000: I'll pass that on when Juerd is around.
19:39 IllvilJa joined #perl6
19:40 * moritz_ does a full-ugprade on feather1
19:41 cognominal_ joined #perl6
19:41 Wolfman2000 moritz_: I forgot you had control over Feather. Should I disconnect from ssh?
19:41 moritz_ no need
19:42 moritz_ since each ssh connection spawns its own process, the connections survive an upgrade
19:48 rfordinal left #perl6
19:49 pmichaud hugme add coke to nqp-rx
19:49 * hugme hugs coke. Welcome to nqp-rx!
19:49 Juerd The system was recently dist-upgraded, and that included git. Is that already too old?
19:49 phenny Juerd: 19:36Z <Wolfman2000> tell Juerd I wonder how easy it is to upgrade Git, or if I should just install a local copy without doing the make install step.
19:50 szabgab Su-Shee, rehi
19:50 moritz_ it's 1.6.5.3
19:50 moritz_ now
19:51 Wolfman2000 moritz_++: thanks. Thinking of using git for...well, hosting the Perl 6 pastebin running on Perl 5
19:52 moritz_ like github's gists?
19:52 Wolfman2000 moritz_: yeah
19:53 Wolfman2000 Still slightly hesitant, but...I may do so tonight while helping parents out with making desert
19:53 moritz_ Wolfman2000: do you have a basic version running already?
19:53 Wolfman2000 of my work? basic, but it works. It's not in a repo though
19:53 moritz_ ok
19:54 Wolfman2000 not every little thing I want works, but...well, I guess that's where we come in
20:04 dalek nqp-rx: 294d493 | (Will Coleda)++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
20:04 dalek nqp-rx: rebuild stage0 after tene++'s try/CATCH/CONTROL additions.
20:04 dalek nqp-rx: review: http://github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/commit/294d4939a6b6e6a49cf4eeb3745c7ea771eb2340
20:04 kst`` joined #perl6
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20:34 lisppaste3 moritz_ pasted "rakudo master spectest summary" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91111
20:37 colomon joined #perl6
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20:47 colomon_ joined #perl6
20:50 * jnthn back from nomz
20:51 jnthn moritz_: Heh. The paste-bin apparently considers this an emergency. ;-)
20:52 ruoso joined #perl6
20:59 moritz_ rakudo: say 4679 / 60
20:59 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: 77.9833333333333␤
20:59 moritz_ on 2 cores. That's... not quick
21:02 bluescreen joined #perl6
21:04 quantumEd joined #perl6
21:04 jnthn moritz_: It took 78 minutes? Ouch. :-(
21:04 moritz_ aye.
21:05 Tene jnthn: this is the part where you tell moritz that ng is 20x faster.
21:05 jnthn Tene: Yeah...apart from it's not.
21:05 arnsholt Sounds about right. IIRC spectest takes about half an hour on my four-core desktop
21:13 Wolfman2000 moritz_: I know you claim feather has an updated git, btu when I re-connected to feather, I'm still on the behind version. Is this intentional?
21:13 gbacon joined #perl6
21:14 slavik joined #perl6
21:18 moritz_ Wolfman2000: which version do you see?
21:18 Wolfman2000 1.5.6.5
21:18 * moritz_ too
21:19 moritz_ wait
21:19 moritz_ that's not the version of the git package
21:19 Wolfman2000 ...so source is the best way to go.
21:19 moritz_ that's because the first git in $PATH is /usr/local/bin/git
21:19 moritz_ Wolfman2000: nope
21:19 moritz_ just use the one in /usr/bin :-)
21:19 Wolfman2000 ...and right now bit is...yep
21:19 Wolfman2000 err, git is pointing to usr/local/bin
21:20 masak joined #perl6
21:20 masak o/
21:20 Juerd Why *is* there a git in /usr/local?
21:20 Wolfman2000 Juerd: you tell me. I don't install stuff on there.
21:20 Juerd Does anyone depend on that old one?
21:20 * Wolfman2000 doesn't.
21:21 Juerd Probably was installed there because debian was lagging behind
21:21 masak did this twitterer not sleep because of Perl 6 regular expressions? http://twitter.com/uasi/status/6058798285 - man, I need to learn Japanese so I won't have to bother other people with translations when Google Translate fails... :)
21:21 Wolfman2000 of course, now I forced /usr/bin to come ahead of /usr/local/bin, so I don't know what sort of dangers there are with that.
21:21 moritz_ any objections to removing the git in /usr/local/ ?
21:21 Wolfman2000 If need be, I can always alias.
21:21 Juerd The problem with manual installation to get a newer package, is that it will eventually be outdated again, and there's usually no record of which files to delete to get rid of it. :(
21:21 Wolfman2000 moritz_: symlink perhaps?
21:22 Juerd moritz_: None from my part. I'd suggest keeping the files around just in case.
21:22 iblechbot joined #perl6
21:23 Juerd leto has a git source tree in ~leto/git/git
21:24 Juerd Why the hell is my ls sorting case insensitive? :(
21:24 moritz_ moved.
21:24 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
21:24 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Update some array creations.
21:24 Wolfman2000 1.6.5.3
21:25 Wolfman2000 moritz_++: Thanks
21:25 moritz_ to /usr/local/old/bin
21:25 Juerd moritz_: How did you determine which files to move?
21:26 Juerd Same mtime?
21:26 Tene Juerd: lang/locale
21:26 moritz_ Juerd: just everything in bin/git*
21:27 Juerd Tene: It does this even with LANG=C
21:27 Tene Huh.
21:27 Juerd moritz_: There's more, though
21:27 moritz_ Juerd: aye, just found it
21:28 moritz_ just also moved share/git*
21:28 takadonet left #perl6
21:28 moritz_ only the stringiterator left
21:36 diakopter Juerd: isn't there a way to set up a local repo with a lower priority (that can store one's custom .debs) so that when a newer version is released in the public repos, it becomes available?
21:40 moritz_ diakopter: there is
21:40 moritz_ but it's a bit fiddly to set up
21:42 compactwater joined #perl6
21:43 compactwater Quick question: I've installed Perl 6 Rakudo, but I'm lost on how to install dependencies.
21:44 masak compactwater: what kind of dependencies?
21:44 compactwater All the ones for ilbot
21:44 compactwater http://moritz.faui2k3.org/en/ilbot
21:45 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
21:45 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Get role composition conflict detection and resolution by having a method provided working again.
21:45 alester joined #perl6
21:45 masak compactwater: just so we're on the same page here: ilbot and Rakudo are completely distinct.
21:45 masak one does not depend on the other.
21:46 moritz_ right, ilbot is a perl 5 program
21:46 compactwater It says Perl6, doesn't it?
21:46 _eMaX_ joined #perl6
21:46 masak compactwater: is your goal to have ilbot up and running?
21:46 Tene compactwater: it's a Perl 5 bot that logs the #perl6 IRC channel.
21:47 compactwater Oh. That's where I was confused
21:47 compactwater masak, yes
21:47 masak compactwater: then, as moritz_ said, you don't need Rakudo for that.
21:47 compactwater Oh. I feel stupid.
21:47 compactwater Well, thanks for that, I was way off.
21:48 jnthn pmichaud: plz we can haz identifiers in nqp with hyphens in them? :-)
21:48 moritz_ compactwater: it was developed for a Perl 6 channel, not in Perl 6
21:48 colomon jnthn: did the ng issue where operators dispatched to the wrong version ever get sorted out?
21:49 jnthn colomon: I don't remember hearing that it was sorted out, and the lack of S06-multi tests passing makes me fear not. :-/
21:49 Su-Shee left #perl6
21:49 masak compactwater: now that you have Rakudo installed, you might as well try it out a little. :)
21:49 moritz_ oh, and the spam deletion is bitrotted
21:49 * frettled chickened out on blogging about Temporal.pm, and wrote another piece instead.  Need.  More.  Time.
21:50 compactwater Sadly, I'm not even a Perl programmer. I'm just setting up a quick bot for a network
21:50 Tene frettled: can't you use Temporal.pm to give yourself more time?
21:50 jnthn colomon: It got bogged down in not settling on a solution.
21:50 masak compactwater: ah. well, best of luck.
21:50 frettled Tene: I'll ask my friend Tai about that.  ;)
21:50 colomon jnthn: seems like that's an important one to land soon.
21:51 moritz_ should I move ilbot out of the pugs repo, and into a separate github project?
21:51 jnthn colomon: Agree.
21:51 Wolfman2000 moritz_: how many projects are in the pugs repo anyway?
21:51 Wolfman2000 Some separation will probably be good
21:51 jnthn colomon: Trouble is, the fix I wanted originally won't fly.
21:51 moritz_ Wolfman2000: close to * :-)
21:52 SimonAW joined #perl6
21:52 Wolfman2000 moritz_: you do NOT have infinite projects on pugs
21:52 moritz_ no, close to
21:52 Wolfman2000 I still don't believe that
21:52 frettled heh
21:52 SimonAW Good evening, gentlemen.
21:53 frettled moritz_: I think I may like github, it seems slightly more useful.
21:53 moritz_ one of our math profs used to say "... and the logarithm of infinity is around 5" (regarding the slow growth of the log function)
21:54 frettled SimonAW: What you say !!
21:54 SimonAW ;)
21:54 SimonAW Although it's my favorite meme i consider it "common courtesy" ;)
21:55 Wolfman2000 alright, afk
21:55 SimonAW I mean at least I didn't say "How are you ~" ;)
21:55 frettled SimonAW: yep
21:59 frettled SimonAW: Hmm, it looks like I scared all of them into science by picking up that meme.
22:00 masak frettled: 'scared into science'? :P
22:00 SimonAW Aw, never mind...
22:00 frettled heh
22:00 masak SimonAW: did someone set up us the bomb?
22:01 masak frettled: I wish I could scare more people into science...
22:01 frettled masak: me, too
22:01 jnthn .oO( how is meme formed? )
22:01 frettled ICANHAZMEME, OMGWTFBBQ!
22:01 SimonAW oO( OMG, what did I do? )
22:01 jnthn SimonAW: Don't worry, it doesn't take much to set off a chain of events like this on #perl6. :-)
22:01 masak jnthn: they need to do way instain mother.
22:02 jnthn masak: She needs to lady to rest?
22:02 masak jnthn: my pary are with the father. I am truly sorry for your lots.
22:02 SimonAW Okay, to get back ontrack: Do I get that right that parrot is still using svn but kind of moving to git?
22:03 moritz_ SimonAW: there are tentative plans to move parrot to git after the 2.0 release
22:03 SimonAW Nice, nice...
22:03 frettled \o/
22:05 SimonAW Oh, I realise I should be in #parront on irc.perl.org for that question...
22:06 sjohnson parront == chinese knockoff of parrot
22:06 SimonAW sjohnson: Oh, snap!
22:06 masak sjohnson: je ne parront francais.
22:07 masak sorry, je ne parront PAS francais.
22:07 moritz_ lol
22:07 SimonAW It is late here (11pm)
22:07 moritz_ I was just about to correct masak++ :-)
22:07 masak SimonAW: here, too!
22:07 masak moritz_: je ne besoin PAS du correction.
22:08 moritz_ masak: s/PAS/JAMAIS/ :-)
22:08 masak well, wouldn't go that far...
22:08 masak I have been known to be wrong.
22:09 * masak re-deflates head
22:09 SimonAW masak: Correction: My writing skills are more susceptible to... lateness(?) ;)
22:09 masak SimonAW: ah. quality is a function of time? :)
22:09 SimonAW hehe
22:10 frettled which Temporal.pm currently does not help us wth
22:10 SimonAW Oh dear. Is this all going right off to the logs?
22:10 masak SimonAW: you bet.
22:10 frettled Mwaha.  Mwahahahaha.  MUAWHWWHHAHAAAAA!
22:10 masak 'everything you say can, and will be used against you...'
22:10 moritz_ SimonAW: yes. But there is so many bullshit in here that it's virtually impossible to find a particular piece of bs in it :-)
22:11 masak not if you use my special bs search engine.
22:11 moritz_ built on top of the GGE?
22:11 masak naturally.
22:11 jnthn /<bs>/
22:11 SimonAW GGE?
22:11 moritz_ then it's too slow to find anything useful :-)
22:12 moritz_ SimonAW: the Glacial Grammar Engine
22:12 frettled Gary Gygax Enterprises?
22:12 masak SimonAW: during the past few months, I've been writing a Perl 6 parser in Perl 6.
22:12 frettled SimonAW: and that explains his funny mood
22:12 masak s/parser/grammar engine/
22:13 SimonAW Heh
22:13 * masak tilts his head madly
22:13 SimonAW Indeed. It would alter my mood as well if I could write a Perl parser.
22:13 frettled Somehow, Freddy Mercury missed that verse in «I'm going slightly mad».
22:13 masak 'ven I push dis button, you vill all vaporize...'
22:14 masak whoa. I just had a semi-strong deja vu. have I played mad scientist before here on #perl6? :)
22:14 frettled but then the grammar engine will spend so long handling the command that the vaporization may have temporal correlation with the Sun turning into a red giant.
22:15 masak frettled: ingenious, isn't it?
22:15 masak boil, fools!
22:15 frettled masak: yes, yes, quite.  Now hand me the beaker with the turquoise bubbly in it, please.
22:15 * masak pouts and hands over beaker
22:16 * frettled sips.  Mmmmmm.
22:16 masak that's engine grease, you know.
22:16 frettled yummy
22:16 * moritz_ sends a micro black hole from the LHC to swallow masak's button
22:16 masak hey! where'd my button go?
22:16 * moritz_ cackles madly
22:17 masak I'm trying to blog here, and you guys are making it very difficult. :P
22:17 moritz_ masak: there's an easy fix... hide your IRC window :-)
22:18 frettled masak: if only you'd spaced your blog entries as weekly instead of nearly daily posts, you'd have an arsenal big enough to make mst just give in and ask you for his color already
22:18 frettled haha
22:18 frettled Did I manage to say that before or after he logged off?
22:19 SimonAW This is weird. I tried to find information on how to checkout parrot but found myself playing tetris on the web a few seconds later.
22:20 diakopter SimonAW: it happens
22:21 diakopter http://www.parrot.org/download\
22:21 diakopter http://www.parrot.org/download
22:21 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
22:21 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Tweak to attribute meta-object API.
22:21 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
22:21 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Start to fill out the Attribute meta-object implementation. Untested, beyond the fact that it compiles.
22:21 moritz_ it compiles - let's ship it!
22:21 SimonAW diakopter: Ya, stumbled upon SVK
22:22 jnthn moritz_: I'm almost certain it'll explode on use, but since nothing tries to use it, that's fine.
22:22 jnthn ;-)
22:22 frettled That's the power of science!
22:22 frettled </mythbusting>
22:23 jnthn It'd be fun to implement the whole metamodel in NQP some day...rather than just parts of it.
22:25 pugs_svn r29195 | moritz++ | [irclog] move sources to github
22:26 frettled jnthn: If it's fun, I'm sure you'll find the time and energy to do it.
22:26 jnthn frettled: It may make some other future things easier... But it's not so needed for ng.
22:28 jnthn It is vaguely curious how this is shaping up.
22:28 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
22:29 frettled Yes, I'm fascinated by the rapid development.
22:29 moritz_ hugme: reload
22:29 hugme moritz_: reloaded successfully
22:29 justatheory joined #perl6
22:29 moritz_ hugme: list projects
22:29 hugme moritz_: I know about book, gge, hugme, ilbot, json, november, nqp-rx, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
22:32 diakopter i'll call success when hugme gets kicked for flooding on `list projects`
22:34 diakopter masak: you there?  watching the irclogs?
22:34 jnthn I'm in ur irclogs, whatchin ur memes.
22:36 frettled diakopter: enter a comment in his blog, he'll notice ;)
22:38 diakopter wait, does GGE *actually* stand for glacial?
22:38 diakopter as in glacially slow?
22:38 moritz_ yes
22:38 jnthn diakopter: Yes really!
22:39 * jnthn was at the talk and saw the beautiful glacier picture
22:39 diakopter is it really that slow?
22:39 moritz_ diakopter: why don't you try it? :-)
22:39 diakopter well...
22:40 jnthn moritz_: Lack of time? ;-)
22:40 frettled Don't tell us - you started a process three days ago, and it hasn't finished yet?
22:40 diakopter I'm busy [re-]writing my own dynamic grammar engine in javascript...(jsmeta)
22:40 moritz_ running the optable tests took less than 10 minutes on my machine :-)
22:41 diakopter .. optimizing for Perl 6, which just means ripping out all the memoization and left-recursion-evasion
22:41 diakopter it already supports parse-time grammar mutation/defintion
22:41 diakopter and rule 'categories'
22:42 diakopter it's, like, fast, and stuff
22:42 moritz_ rakudo: say Bool.defined
22:42 ShaneC joined #perl6
22:42 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: 0␤
22:43 diakopter whereas jsmeta uses a trampoline and js method lookups, the new thing uses opcodes/switch/case and a much more efficient node-cloning technique
22:43 diakopter pmurias: remind me to show you
22:43 diakopter or now
22:43 pmurias diakopter: hi
22:43 frettled Hmm, where did zaslon go?
22:43 diakopter pmurias: are you doing object cloning (or object prototype-derivation)?
22:43 pmurias of what?
22:44 diakopter js objects
22:44 astrojp joined #perl6
22:46 pmurias i'm not doing object cloning (i'm still unsure about the question)
22:46 huf_ joined #perl6
22:47 pmurias diakopter: you mean how is the js object representing a perl6 object created?
22:53 dalek rakudo: f151334 | moritz++ | src/setting/ (2 files):
22:53 dalek rakudo: get rid of undef in the setting
22:53 dalek rakudo: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/f1513348f71777c0ec13c46b1efe2d9b1a0f2c47
22:56 masak joined #perl6
22:57 masak diakopter: I'm here.
22:57 Tene masak: no you aren't!
22:57 masak diakopter: GGE hasn't bloomed out yet to show its full slowness. I have high hopes,  though.
22:57 masak diakopter: I'll come back to you when I have hard figures.
22:59 patspam joined #perl6
23:00 zeke_ joined #perl6
23:00 * jnthn watched with despair at just how glacial GGE was at BPW.
23:00 masak jnthn: that was mainly compilation.
23:01 masak jnthn: for such a small regex, running is pretty OK.
23:01 jnthn masak: Ah...OK, that's not quite so bad then.
23:01 masak jnthn: no. but I really got to track down that compilation bug.
23:05 lisppaste3 masak pasted "jnthn: ever seen anything like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91118
23:06 jnthn masak: No.
23:06 jnthn That looks...screwed up.
23:07 masak ah! good news!
23:07 mikehh joined #perl6
23:07 moritz_ masak: what's the return status of the compilation?
23:07 moritz_ echo $?
23:07 jnthn masak: Does --target=past give anything interesting?
23:07 frettled masak: why does that remind me of Farnsworth in Futurama?
23:07 masak jnthn: I managed to minimize the whole file to this 'my $var = 42; my $var = 5; say $var'
23:07 masak jnthn: let me check.
23:08 jnthn masak: A dupe var causes it?!
23:08 masak moritz_: 0
23:08 masak jnthn: uh huh.
23:08 jnthn bbq!
23:08 masak this needs fixing.
23:08 jnthn er, 'bbq!
23:08 jnthn Well, yes.
23:08 jnthn So do the other n-hundred tickets in RT.
23:09 jnthn This one certainly ranks high on wtf factor though.
23:09 masak jnthn: good news is, if I find and remove the origin of the warnings, I solve the problem. :)
23:09 jnthn rakudo: my $var = 42; my $var = 5; say $var
23:09 p6eval rakudo 7347ec: Redeclaration of variable $var␤5␤
23:10 jnthn ng: my $var = 42; my $var = 5; say $var
23:10 p6eval ng c8b9b4: Redeclaration of symbol $var at line 1, near " = 5; say "␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
23:10 masak jnthn: oh, it runs fine.
23:10 jnthn Heh. ng panics!
23:10 jnthn So I can't see if it's "already fixed" without fixing that first... :-(
23:10 * masak submits rakudobug
23:11 frettled «Results 1 - 10 of about 26,500 for "masak submits rakudobug". (0.38 seconds)»
23:11 masak frettled: lol
23:12 ng_feed rakudo-ng: jnthn++
23:12 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Use the compose method on Attribute to do accessor method generation now, rather than doing it in the actions. This means that we're now implementing the Attribute meta-object API from metamodel.pod and using it.
23:12 mikehh joined #perl6
23:13 jnthn The upshot of the above is that we've much of what we need for custom accessor generation now.
23:14 frettled nice!
23:14 frettled Good night!
23:14 moritz_ good night
23:15 jnthn o/
23:15 moritz_ \o
23:15 jnthn That was to frettled, not 'cus I'm going. ;-)
23:16 masak I am. 'night.
23:16 masak frettled: night!
23:18 sjohnson what is everyone's favourite non-ascii open and close bracket for doing giant qq/ type strings?
23:18 moritz_ «...»
23:27 Tene ⦃ ⦄
23:30 Juerd diakopter: Not that I know of, but you could use a version number just below the expected one that Debian will use. e.g. 1.19999 if the actual number is 1.2.
23:40 xenoterracide joined #perl6
23:45 diakopter pmurias: no, I mean cloning nodes in the interpreter
23:46 diakopter or cloning any js object in the runtime
23:46 diakopter I'm just curious if your runtime does anything like that, because I have a very efficient way to do it
23:47 diakopter Juerd: moritz_ replied that there is (a way)
23:50 Juerd diakopter: I'd be very surprised. I only know of several ways to *prevent* such upgrades.
23:55 diakopter Juerd: ? http://wiki.debian.org/HowToSetupADebianRepository
23:55 pmurias diakopter: the code a compiled js switch is kept seperate from the data
23:56 Juerd It's not clear to me how that has anything to do with lowering priority
23:56 Juerd Good night for now
23:56 Juerd zz
23:57 pmurias diakopter: mildew-js is very very unoptimised atm
23:57 diakopter ok... have you committed lately?
23:57 diakopter or worked on it lately?
23:58 pmurias i think i last comitted yesterday
23:58 pmurias multis now work

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