Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 pmurias joined #perl6
00:01 Tene masak, jnthn: a standard solution to the intimidation problem is to separate into two channels, one being new-user-oriented.
00:02 * pmurias is unsure if he should git svn dcommit mid migration to new STD mildew
00:02 Tene I remember that #perl6 used to be about Perl 6 in general, and #pugs was where pugs dev happened, iirc...
00:02 Tene #perl6-devel, maybe...
00:02 Tene #rakudo
00:02 masak but I like new users here! I just want them to be braver.
00:03 pmurias Tene: #pugs i don't remember
00:03 masak Tene: don't think it was ever #pugs.
00:03 masak it was #perl6 in early 2005 when I got here.
00:04 pmurias especially as autrijus created #perl6
00:04 Tene masak: i don't trust my memory for anything... not surprised I'm wrong.
00:05 Tene masak: might be helpful to identify why we're intimidating, and consider whether moving some of the intimidating discussion to a back room would be helpful.
00:05 masak I'm not saying splitting into two channels would be a bad move... I'd probably hang out in both channels. but I like how #perl6 is all over the place, everything from lolspeak to compiler internals.
00:05 Tene masak: I agree, I don't like the idea of pushing new users to a different channel.
00:05 Tene masak: Me too. :)
00:06 masak we even have some lolspeak in our compiler internals. :)
00:06 diakopter what?  you mean all new Perl 6 users shouldn't have to pass the #perl6 gauntlet?
00:08 Tene There shouldn't be a gauntlet, no.
00:12 Tene Okay, going home now.  The GF is dragging me out for some socializing, but I plan to lurk in the corner with my laptop the entire night hacking on Parrot.
00:12 Tene any requests for ng features?
00:13 diakopter heh
00:13 diakopter trailing while/until?
00:13 Tene Sure. :)
00:17 diakopter pmurias, mberends: http://perl_vs_v8.pastebin.com/d2c12b8a6   a simple/dumb microbenchmark.  v8 has higher startup time, but its loop scales much better
00:17 diakopter just missed mberends
00:19 masak don't worry, he backlogs.
00:21 pmurias diakopter: would would be more intresting is a v8 vs C comparision
00:21 diakopter :P
00:21 pmurias diakopter: and measuring the cost of abstraction is more important than numerics
00:23 diakopter yes, a Perl scalar is just about the same level of abstraction as a JavaScript variable...
00:23 diakopter has very similar semantics, I mean
00:25 sjohnson diakopter: is there a way to dump available methods for a type?
00:26 sjohnson rakudo:  say Array().methods;
00:26 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: invoke() not implemented in class 'ResizablePMCArray'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
00:26 pmurias diakopter: what i worry much is how having an extra layer (or two) of method calls will affect performance
00:26 pmurias * much more
00:26 jnthn sjohnson: .^
00:26 jnthn rakudo: say Array.^methods
00:26 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: ScalarshiftArraypushspliceexis​tsunshiftpopitemvaluesdelete␤
00:27 jnthn rakudo: say Array.^methods>>.name.join(' ')
00:27 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: pop item values delete Scalar  shift Array push splice exists unshift␤
00:27 hcchien joined #perl6
00:27 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb78752d4>': Failure()<0xb785928c>
00:27 sjohnson thanks jnthn
00:28 sjohnson jnthn: is there such thing as a List()?
00:28 colomon_ oh cool, zaslon is tracking perl6advent!  (if awkwardly...)
00:28 colomon_ I'm still working on the "table of contents" post....
00:28 masak yes, moritz_ added perl6advent earlier today.
00:28 masak colomon_++
00:30 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb785efe0>': Failure()<0xb7846fd0>
00:32 colomon_ It's short, but it's there now.  (Must read to my boy a bit.)
00:32 colomon_ I'm going to tackle the day 1 "How do you get rakudo working?" post in a bit.
00:33 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Perl 6 Advent Calendar': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2​009/12/01/perl-6-advent-calendar/
00:33 colomon_ btw, feel free to suggest changes or just make them if you have permission.  :)
00:37 jnthn sjohnson: List is how you refer to the type object in the namespace. List() is how it stringifies. List(...) would be a coercion, but that's NYI.
00:37 sjohnson jnthn: my reason for curisoity is because i don't see pick and sort in that array method list
00:38 jnthn sjohnson: I was gonna say "yeah, they're inherited" but...hm.
00:38 jnthn .methods without :local is meant to show the whole load up the tree.
00:43 sjohnson hmm
00:43 sjohnson not sure how that is accomplished
00:43 sjohnson *scratches head*
00:43 jnthn rakudo: class A { method foo { } }; class B { method bar { } }; say B.^methods>>.name.join()
00:44 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
00:44 jnthn offs
00:44 jnthn I'd expect that to start "bar foo ..." anyway.
00:47 masak jnthn: it starts 'bar' locally, but 'foo' comes much later.
00:48 colomon_ jnthn: do the normal instructions for building rakudo work on windows?
00:51 jnthn masak: orly?
00:51 jnthn colomon_: Should.
00:51 masak oh, wait.
00:51 jnthn colomon_: Just remember to invoke make with the right name.
00:52 masak it should be 'B is A'... :)
00:52 colomon_ jnthn: what compiler would that be using?
00:52 jnthn masak: oh!
00:52 jnthn duh yes :-)
00:52 jnthn colomon_: I build with MS VC++
00:52 masak right. 'bar', 'foo'. :)
00:52 jnthn colomon_: e.g. the Visual C++ compiler
00:52 jnthn masak: Yeah, sorry. :-)
00:52 jnthn Perl 6 ain't *that* magical.
00:53 masak jnthn: apparently, I accepted it without reflecting. :)
00:53 jnthn masak: It *is* nearly 2am. ;-)
00:54 masak that doesn't say much. :) I'm not even a little tired...
00:54 jnthn masak: Yes, same. :-/
00:54 nbrown colmon_: I use mingw on windows and that works too
00:54 jnthn masak: I gotta get up at 7am-ish for a flyg on Wednesday too.
00:55 masak a fokker? :)
00:55 jnthn I fokking hope not. :-P
00:55 colomon_ nbrown: Thanks.
00:55 jnthn masak: Ryanair don't have any of those.
00:56 masak maybe just as well.
00:56 jnthn masak: Just aluminum tubes painted blue and yellow inside with non-reclining seats and 2,50 EUR coffee.
00:56 nbrown colomon_: no problem, just thought more solutions is better
00:56 colomon_ nbrown: absolutely.  there's more than one way...
00:56 jnthn masak: Yeah. I did a Fokker once.
00:56 jnthn masak: It was...an experience. :-)
00:56 masak it was a pleasant experience, my fokker I mean.
00:57 jnthn masak: I didn't especially dislike it. Sadly, every time I fly these days I seem to get more nervous about it, not less. :-/
00:57 jnthn Meta-model compositon papers seem to help though. :-)
00:57 masak :)
00:58 jnthn Ooh...I should print another @interesting-paper off for the journey on Wed.
00:58 masak oh, definitely.
00:58 jnthn Or maybe 2 given I've got 4-5 hours of train afterwards.
00:58 masak for great justice.
01:15 cognominal joined #perl6
01:19 colomon joined #perl6
01:22 masak 'night. :)
01:22 colomon 'night.
01:22 phenny colomon: 30 Nov 15:18Z <masak> tell colomon that it may be a good idea to write an 0th blog post today, which introduces the whole Perl 6 Advent Calendar endeavour to the world.
01:22 phenny colomon: 30 Nov 15:59Z <Wolfman2000> tell colomon username for wordpress is wolfman2000. I don't know if he got it previously due to the evil PEER
01:23 colomon apparently masak and I were thinking along the same lines...  :)
01:26 agentzh joined #perl6
01:26 jnthn "Who is peer and why won't he stop resetting my connection?"
01:27 colomon Wow, cygwin takes forever to download their git....
01:30 justatheory joined #perl6
01:31 jnthn oh noes, not cygwin.
01:31 sjohnson heh
01:31 sjohnson i'm not a huge cygwin fan either
01:31 sjohnson i think it is very clunky
01:38 colomon I've long considered it essential for working on Windows boxes.
01:38 colomon But it sucks on Vista, which was part of my reason for getting my first Mac this time last year...
01:39 SirKay well there's your problem
01:39 SirKay you were using vista
01:40 colomon SirKay: Unfortunately, as a programmer who has to support Windows machines professionally, I cannot ignore it forever.
01:40 SirKay oh my.
01:40 zaphar_ps joined #perl6
01:40 * jnthn *just* managed to avoid Vista.
01:41 colomon But I couldn't bear the thought of my main laptop being a Vista machine, and erasing it and installing XP seemed a little past its sell-by date.  So I got a Mac instead.
01:41 SirKay meanwhile, I've been talking to a more experienced programmer, and he suggests that as a beginner, I should do Python instead.
01:41 colomon jnthn: I just tried to build rakudo using the standard instructions, and the --gen-parrot phase blew up on me.
01:41 jnthn colomon: On cygwin?
01:41 colomon As far as I know, I just used cygwin for git.
01:42 jnthn oh.
01:42 arnsholt SirKay: Perl vs. Python is largely a matter of preference
01:42 jnthn The msys git port works wonderfully for me. ;-)
01:42 jnthn And doesn't need cygwin.
01:42 colomon That system's Perl is active state.
01:42 jnthn colomon: How did she blow?
01:42 jnthn colomon: Yeah, that's what I have too...
01:42 arnsholt Some people prefer Python, others prefer Perl (I think you can guess where this channel stands =)
01:42 SirKay but hypothetically, if I did Python, what would I have for support?  Perl has this channel, and it has perlmonks, and whatnot.
01:43 jnthn The Perl community is one of the things that keeps me going, that's for sure. :-)
01:43 SirKay my Perl-Fu is weak but not nonexistent.  On the other hand, my Python-Fu is nonexistent.
01:43 arnsholt TBH, I don't know. Being a Perl guy, I've not paid that much attention to Python
01:43 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "How she blew" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91315
01:44 jnthn SirKay: In many ways, Python and Perl are philosophically different. I can understand how they fit easier for different people.
01:45 arnsholt As jnthn points out, the main differences between Perl and Python are the philosophy behind it, and the syntax
01:45 SirKay I'm simply concerned with no longer sucking at programming and starting to make nontrivial programs.
01:45 jnthn SirKay: If you like what you've seen of Perl so far and it seems to fit for you so far, keep exploring. It's not always an easy language to learn, but I'm very glad I made the effort.
01:46 SirKay I could go either way, to be honest.
01:48 jnthn SirKay: Sure. And you should see which fits best for you and go for it. TBH, once you learn enough langauges, they all start looking the same anyway. Apart from Haskell. That always looks insane. :-)
01:48 arnsholt Lisp is kinda funky as well =)
01:49 jnthn (And when I say "looking the same" I really mean, you start seeing that "oh, that's just a lambda" and "that's just a class declaration" and "that's just a loop"...)
01:49 jnthn Well, I do anyway. :-)
01:49 SirKay I've been starting and stopping for 16 years.
01:49 jnthn But maybe the compiler writer in me just wants to deconstruct all languages into their primitives. ;-)
01:49 arnsholt jnthn: I'm not a compiler writer (not much of one, anyways =) and I have the same experience
01:50 arnsholt Except, of course, for Haskell which melts my brain =)
01:50 jnthn arnsholt: lol
01:50 jnthn arnsholt: I did sorta figure it was likely a fairly shared experience.
01:50 jnthn :-)
01:51 jnthn SirKay: I guess I sorta started 16 years ago and got hooked somehow.
01:51 arnsholt Yeah. People who say Perl is hard can just sod off. If you wanna talk hard, let's talk Haskell =)
01:51 SirKay it's a shame, really.
01:51 SirKay if I had applied myself and started learning properly in all that time
01:51 arnsholt (I really would like to learn Haskell though. The concept is cool)
01:51 SirKay I could be a computing demigod now
01:52 SirKay Perl is not really any harder than anything else.  In fact, I'm one of those freaks who loves that you denote scalars with a dollar sign.
01:52 jnthn SirKay: To be honest, the longer I do it, the more I realize it's good to have a mixture of things in my life.
01:53 SirKay so yeah...I'll do either perl or python, I just want whatever will give me the quickest route to programming power.
01:53 SirKay That is a vain and callow desire, but yeah.
01:53 jnthn SirKay: Well, I guess you mainly want to get there so you can Build Cool Stuff. :-)
01:53 jnthn Which sure isn't a vain and callow desire.
01:54 * jnthn loves seeing cool tech in whatever language.
01:54 SirKay are you a troper?
01:54 jnthn ...troper?
01:54 jnthn I guess that means no. :-)
01:54 SirKay hmm, I guess not.
01:54 jnthn If I have to ask.
01:54 SirKay tvtropes.org
01:54 SirKay though the site is down now.
01:55 SirKay But alas.  Yes, I want to get results now, since I've been on and off for 16 years with no progress, with only myself to blame.
02:05 jnthn SirKay: Heh. I just noticed...tvtropes.org (now up again) runs pmwiki!
02:05 SirKay orly
02:05 jnthn yarly
02:05 SirKay nowai
02:06 colomon Quick, gang, a cool one line p6 script?
02:06 SirKay but yeah...uh...
02:06 jnthn SirKay: ...you fit in hear pretty well, don't you? :-)
02:06 jnthn lolspeaking fluently already. :-)
02:06 SirKay if I could prevail upon you to share with me some cool secret that is the key to everything, if you know it, I'd like to know.
02:06 SirKay I try.
02:08 jnthn colomon: role Pint[::Beverage] { }; class Beer { method drink { say "glug" } }; my Pint of Beer @beers = Pint[Beer] xx 4; @beers>>.drink;
02:09 bryan[c1] joined #perl6
02:09 jnthn colomon: Parallel dispatch, parametric roles, classes, types, repetition operator... ;-)
02:09 colomon I should have specified "that runs on rakudo-master".  :)
02:09 colomon still, awesome code there!
02:09 bryan[c1] when i try to run a perl script in notepad off my desktop it says the file cant be found, why is that?
02:10 bryan[c1] could it be my shebang line?
02:10 jnthn colomon: Er. I think that (or something very close to it) already does. ;-)
02:11 colomon Method 'drink' not found for invocant of class ''
02:11 jnthn colomon: Oh.
02:11 jnthn my Pint of Beer @beers = Pint[Beer].new xx 4; # forgot the .new call - needed to pun the role
02:11 jnthn bryan[c1]: Hi. Most likely you're interested in Perl 5 rather than Perl 6, so this isn't *quite* the place to ask. :-) On Windows, I dobut it's the shebang line.
02:11 jnthn Since those don't mean much to Windows in general.
02:12 bryan[c1] i got banned from #perl for asking a question and some dude started an argument
02:12 bryan[c1] and of course, the n00b that just came in is always wrong
02:12 jnthn bryan[c1]: *sigh* Sorry to hear that. :-(
02:12 bryan[c1] but on any note
02:12 jnthn bryan[c1]: How are you trying to run the script?
02:12 colomon rakudo: role Pint[::Beverage] { }; class Beer { method drink { say "glug" } }; my Pint of Beer @beers = Pint[Beer].new xx 4; @beers>>.drink;
02:13 bryan[c1] cmd
02:13 bryan[c1] im in the desktop directory and everything
02:13 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
02:13 bryan[c1] activeperl installed
02:13 jnthn Just typing "perl thescript.pl"?
02:13 bryan[c1] yeah
02:13 jnthn Where thescript.pl is the name of your script?
02:13 jnthn Hmm
02:13 bryan[c1] weird right?
02:13 bryan[c1] maybe i need to reinstall activeperl
02:13 jnthn Does just "perl -v" give you any output?
02:13 bryan[c1] yeah
02:14 sjohnson bryan[c1]: i would recommend Strawberry Perl over ActivePerl
02:14 jnthn bryan[c1]: Something like "This is perl v..."
02:14 jnthn OK.
02:14 jnthn Hmm. Does it say what file is not found? :-/
02:14 bryan[c1] yeah it worken jnthn
02:14 bryan[c1] yeah
02:15 bryan[c1] no such file or directory LOL
02:15 jnthn OK, so it's in your path alright.
02:15 jnthn dir myscript.pl shows it?
02:15 jnthn (where myscript.pl is file name of your script...)
02:15 jnthn Starting cmd doesn't actually dump you into your desktop directly by default, you'd need a "cd Desktop" first to do that...
02:16 bryan[c1] oh well i did that
02:16 bryan[c1] im not THAT much of a n00b
02:16 jnthn :-)
02:16 bryan[c1] C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop>
02:16 jnthn Hey, me either, but we can all make mistakes now and then. :-)
02:17 jnthn OK, in that case...yes, it's...odd.
02:17 SirKay hmm.
02:17 bryan[c1] kk ill un install AP and install straw
02:17 jnthn k
02:17 bryan[c1] only answer i suppose
02:18 zamolxes joined #perl6
02:19 JimmyZ joined #perl6
02:19 SirKay jnthn
02:20 orafu joined #perl6
02:21 jnthn SirKay: No, I don't really think there's some secret "key to everything". :-)
02:21 SirKay Okay.  But perhaps something short of that, then.
02:25 jnthn Find topics and niches that you enjoy and pursue them. Accept that computing is too big to understand everything out there, so get a sense of the bigger picture and then specialize in what you like doing most. Expect to write code now and look back at it in a year and wonder what you were thinking - and realize that means you've learned and accept it as a good thing. Accept that some things are Just Hard and don't feel bad about finding them so. Look at w
02:25 SirKay Look at w
02:26 jnthn Look at what others have done to learn from it rather than re-inventing wheels, unless all the existing wheels for the task at hand are square-shaped, in which case make a round one.
02:26 SirKay Well.
02:26 SirKay I don't want to be one of those people who thinks they're a good programmer and just more or less cribs the entire CPAN.
02:27 bryan[c1] well its there for a reason
02:27 jnthn SirKay: Knowing when to re-use what's out there, and when to make your own thing, is a difficult - but IMHO important - skill.
02:27 bryan[c1] 2(jnthn2): i installed stawberry but its still not working
02:27 jnthn bryan[c1]: What's in your script?
02:28 bryan[c1] just the shebang and print hello world
02:28 bryan[c1] well print "hello world";
02:28 SirKay I understand.  I'm just saying a lot of people just write a little code, append some cpan libraries, and call it good
02:28 jnthn SirKay: And if it just solved their problem, why isn't it good? :-)
02:28 bryan[c1] then thats what your code is sirkay, you're not expected to 'reinvent the wheel', as he just said above.
02:29 SirKay it's good, but it doesn't make you good.
02:29 bryan[c1] its still YOUR code
02:29 SirKay if that makes sense.
02:29 bryan[c1] but finding the ins and outs and makes modules is advanced stuff
02:29 SirKay Forgive me for sounding elitist about this, but...one of the main reasons I've redoubled my resolve to learn is in response to people who think they're great programmers even though much of their shit is trivial.
02:30 jnthn SirKay: I dunno. I've seen plenty of bad reinventions of things that there are already good solutions out there. :-)
02:30 SirKay I'm sure that happens, but you know what I mean.
02:30 jnthn bryan[c1]: OK, I remain...puzzled.
02:31 SirKay People who claim to be "senior cadre of the internet" for no real reason, or "core linux developers" even when they don't have a single line of code in the kernel.
02:31 jnthn bryan[c1]: Maybe try and pull out the shebang line?
02:31 jnthn Just in case.
02:31 bryan[c1] k
02:31 bryan[c1] the whole file is : print "hello";
02:31 bryan[c1] on one line
02:31 jnthn Sure, that should be fine.
02:32 bryan[c1] nope
02:32 SirKay however, I was rightly admonished, by the person who recommended I learn Python instead of Perl, to not focus so negatively, so let's just say that right now my goal is to be able to make, at the very least, nontrivial programs.  ideally I will make programs people actually use and are also nontrivial.
02:32 SirKay but nontrivial is good for a start.
02:33 jnthn OK, if there's no shebang line and that's all in the file, I guess it ain't finding the file you're trying to run. Notepad didn't by any chance follow it's annoying habbit of adding .txt to the filename when you saved it?
02:33 bryan[c1] no its test.pl
02:33 SirKay Am I making sense?
02:33 bryan[c1] sirkay, using modules isnt against any moral rules of programming
02:33 bryan[c1] just use them when you need to, no one really cares.
02:34 jnthn SirKay: It's fine to want to make nontrivial programs. It's also fine to use existing libraries to help you make them.
02:34 bryan[c1] whats with the looking down on module use?
02:34 bryan[c1] when you get deep into programming you're going to thank god for them
02:35 jnthn I sure do.
02:35 SirKay okay I have made myself misunderstood.
02:35 bryan[c1] DBI, LWP, any module with file handling
02:35 SirKay I am not saying "don't use modules" or "don't use cpan."  that would be dumb.
02:35 SirKay I am saying "it would be nice if people actually understood what went into those modules and could recreate them on their own later on"
02:36 bryan[c1] you're wondering where the skill has gone since they exist
02:36 bryan[c1] you can look at the source code for all of them
02:36 SirKay yes, I'm talking about the people who don't.
02:36 bryan[c1] well, they're thinking "all i need to learn is the syntax, i dont need to know how it works"
02:36 bryan[c1] in that case, they're probably just using perl for a specific reason
02:36 bryan[c1] or they are just a weird perl programmer
02:36 SirKay and that's why I don't really consider them programmers.
02:37 bryan[c1] then so be it
02:37 bryan[c1] you're only entitled to your own opinion
02:37 SirKay I agree with jnthn that improperly reinventing the wheel is a waste of time at best
02:38 nbrown SirKay: I think that's fine if the scope of that person's interest is to only get past their problem, but you seem more interested in learning how to program and how things work
02:38 arnsholt ISO annoys me. They've got all these nice "open" standards. Except they cost a small fortune to get
02:38 SirKay now wait.  bryan, what is the problem?  I'm not talking about you or anyone in the channel here.
02:38 nbrown SirKay: in that case, the best way is to use what you need, write what you can and learn from both as best you can
02:38 SirKay indeed nbrown.
02:38 jnthn Nicely put. :-)
02:38 bryan[c1] with all do respect sirkay, you turned it into a discussion about programming into a spouting of your opinions
02:39 bryan[c1] sorry that didnt make much sense
02:39 bryan[c1] im kinda high
02:39 bryan[c1] but that aside, i still stand by my point.
02:39 SirKay I could have said something snide, but I didn't.
02:39 jnthn SirKay: Seeking to understand stuff is fine, and a Good Thing. Please understand that people getting their job done by just using stuff is also fine. :-)
02:39 Exodist_ joined #perl6
02:39 bryan[c1] (SirKay) and that's why I don't really consider them programmers.
02:39 SirKay bryan, I admit that I sort of got on my soapbox there.
02:40 SirKay but there is a good reason for it.
02:40 bryan[c1] they dont consider YOU a programmer, you're whining about already created code
02:40 bryan[c1] try coding in c++ without the standard library
02:40 SirKay Hmm.
02:40 bryan[c1] have fun with that
02:40 quantumEd standard libraries suck
02:41 nbrown jnthn: dumb question, but where did the setting go in the ng branch?
02:41 nbrown I'm just looking at it for the first time and feel a little lost
02:41 SirKay Well man, as you say, you are entitled to your opinion.
02:41 bryan[c1] thats not my opinion
02:41 bryan[c1] i dont have an opinion on you
02:42 bryan[c1] heres what im saying
02:42 bryan[c1] if you were to have this conversation about how modules are for n00bs with some experienced programmers, they would laugh at you behind your back as soon as you walked away
02:42 bryan[c1] if they werent nice people at least
02:42 SirKay You misunderstood my point completely.
02:43 bryan[c1] no i didnt
02:43 bryan[c1] im just trying to shorten it
02:43 SirKay My point is not, and would never be "modules are for noobs."
02:44 SirKay As you say, that would be like coding in C without libraries.
02:44 bryan[c1] i know that, it was a shortened version of your point
02:44 bryan[c1] a generalized one
02:44 SirKay Except it isn't.
02:44 bryan[c1] you don't understand MY point, thats the problem
02:44 bryan[c1] im not saying you're wrong
02:44 bryan[c1] stop being so technical
02:44 bryan[c1] i dont talk that way in chat rooms
02:45 jnthn ng_feed: It's in core now
02:45 * SirKay shrugs.
02:45 bryan[c1] you think modules are for people that dont really care HOW it works, but just want to get a task done (i.e. not 'real' programmers, as you stated above)
02:45 jnthn gah
02:45 jnthn nbrown: it's in src/core/ now
02:45 SirKay And that is wrong.
02:46 bryan[c1] in more detail, people that dont look at the source of the module and understand whats really going on
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02:46 bryan[c1] you're saying that only mechanics should drive cars because they understand how it works
02:46 jnthn nbrown: Renamed it to fit a bit more with spec naming and STD...
02:46 bryan[c1] im not wrong, that was totally your demeanor this whole time, SirKay
02:46 nbrown jnthn: thanks, I felt a little lost poking around
02:47 SirKay Whatever.  I'm dropping the argument.
02:47 bryan[c1] just use the modules
02:47 bryan[c1] if you want to know how it works, look at the source code
02:47 * jnthn needs to sleep...it's late
02:47 jnthn o/
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02:55 Wolfman2000 ...alright, 11 hours then.
02:55 phenny Wolfman2000: 30 Nov 17:07Z <colomon_> tell Wolfman2000 For some stupid reason, I need the e-mail address you used to subscribe to wordpress, rather than your wordpress id.
02:55 Wolfman2000 colomon: you there?
02:55 seano` joined #perl6
02:55 colomon yes.
02:56 colomon just putting finishing touches on a "how to get rakudo" post.
02:56 Wolfman2000 So the rakudo post wll be the first gift then?
02:56 colomon yes.
02:56 Wolfman2000 Guess that means I'm getting bumped to Thursday at least
02:56 colomon Do you have a post ready to go as well?
02:57 Wolfman2000 colomon: just got online when not dealing with classes.
02:57 Wolfman2000 I was going to plan my stuff now actually.
02:57 colomon understood.
02:57 Wolfman2000 I'll be able to juggle gifts with my finals...they're all take home this semester
02:58 Wolfman2000 I know I earlier claimed the idea of multi subs with constraints...I'm wondering if Types should be introduced first before we go into multi subs and constraints.
02:58 Wolfman2000 There should be some logic and planning to the calendar.
02:59 colomon agreed that a general notion of easier to harder and building upon earlier posts would be a good thing.
02:59 Wolfman2000 ...now's a good of time as any to plan this.
02:59 Wolfman2000 If this is on the pugs repo, I think I can commit to it.
03:00 Wolfman2000 ...man, wish masak was here. This way we can plan this better.
03:00 colomon our notes (what there are) are there.
03:01 colomon Yeah, planning for more than a day or two will probably go better in the morning, when everyone else is awake again.
03:02 colomon what is the e-mail address you used to create your wordpress account?  just the id isn't good enough for something reason.
03:02 Wolfman2000 colomon: thought I /msg'ed you it
03:02 Wolfman2000 guess it didn't take
03:02 colomon it did.
03:02 colomon I just completely failed to notice.
03:02 colomon one sec.
03:04 colomon bingo.  you're on it now.
03:07 Wolfman2000 colomon: got the email. Nice greet message. "If you don't care, just ignore this email.  :)"
03:07 colomon :)
03:09 pugs_svn r29220 | jafelds++ | Add myself to the list of volunteers.
03:11 Wolfman2000 guess I'm definitely in now. Now we just have to figure out not only the schedule of when we speak...but the topics.
03:11 Wolfman2000 colomon: I'm guessing you've got the first day.
03:12 colomon yes.
03:13 colomon it's all cued up (queued up, too), just hoping to have some of the rest of the gang proofread it.
03:14 colomon I think you should be able to see the draft if you go to "Posts" in the dashboard.
03:14 Wolfman2000 ...we cna make drafts? wow
03:14 pugs_svn r29221 | jafelds++ | Add our gift to the schedule.
03:15 Wolfman2000 I just can't view yours.
03:15 colomon Really?
03:15 Wolfman2000 ...let me try something else
03:16 Wolfman2000 okay, maybe not. I'm not exactly used to wordpress that much here.
03:16 colomon I've never actually tried doing anything with wordpress before, so I don't quite know what its capabilities are.
03:16 Wolfman2000 I can view your published post. Don't think I can view your draft
03:16 colomon well hell.
03:17 colomon okay, I'll proof it quickly and then post it.  we can probably fix any mistakes before anyone else notices.  :)
03:17 Wolfman2000 you're brave, that's for sure
03:17 Wolfman2000 anyway, I'm debating whether we should add a list of possible topics/gifts on the schedule file as well
03:19 colomon It's probably not a bad idea.  Though I suspect masak doesn't have anything firm in mind for the days he picked (for example).
03:19 Wolfman2000 He can easily talk about Web.pm
03:19 colomon maybe should add a topic brainstorming file as well.
03:22 colomon Well, day 1 is live.
03:22 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 1: Getting Rakudo': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/01/day-1-getting-rakudo/
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03:27 pugs_svn r29222 | colomon++ | [perl6advent] Claim some dates, start a brainstorming file.
03:27 JimmyZ joined #perl6
03:30 Wolfman2000 afk
03:33 TimToady r/e
03:35 colomon r/e ?
03:35 JimmyZ ng: ~(Str.^methods).say;
03:35 p6eval ng f2ba53: succ ACCEPTS WHICH pred perl acotan roots lcfirst sec asec trim cotanh map cis log sech rand bytes sin sqrt asin cosh asinh acosech abs uc ceiling floor substr asech ord round does flip split match acosec acosh words cosech cotan atan2 reverse isa ucfirst comb tan atan cos acos fmt chop
03:35 p6eval ..t…
03:35 JimmyZ ng: say ~(Str.^methods);
03:35 p6eval ng f2ba53: WHICH pred perl ACCEPTS succ asec trim chr acotanh floor sech asech rand round sqrt asin split exp cosh match acosh words can cotan atan2 lcfirst sec map cis log sin does flip p5chop lc abs acotan acosech chomp index ceiling cotanh comb atan ord acos chop tanh atanh cosec chars roots uc
03:35 p6eval ..r…
03:35 JimmyZ rakudo: say ~(Str.^methods);
03:36 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: encode succ WHICH ACCEPTS perl sprintf Scalar Complex Str pred polar ucfirst comb tan atan cos acos fmt first trans chop rindex tanh values subst elems chomp index keys chr acotanh pairs kv capitalize pick evalfile atanh cosec exp p5chop lc join chars sinh can acotan lcfirst roots
03:36 p6eval ..reduce …
03:36 pugs_svn r29223 | colomon++ | [perl6advent] Another idea.
03:36 JimmyZ rakudo: ~(Str.^methods).say;
03:36 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:
03:36 p6eval ..sprintfScalarComplexStrpredsuccencodeperlACCEPT​SWHICHelemschompindexkeyschracotanhpairskvcapital​izepickevalfileatanhcosecexpp5choplcjoincharssinh​canacotanlcfirstrootsreducetrimaseccotanhmap:dcis​:e:flogsechminrandmaxtruncatebytessortsinsqrtasin​Intcoshgrepasinhacosechabsenducceilingp5chomps…
03:36 quantumEd coool!
03:38 JimmyZ ng++
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03:45 diakopter rakudo: Str.^methods.sort.say
03:45 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
03:46 diakopter rakudo: Str.^methods[0].PARROT.say
03:46 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Sub␤
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03:54 diakopter rakudo: Str.^methods.grep({ ~$^a eq 'capitalize' })[0]("hihi").say  # okay, so that's like JavaScript's Function.prototype.call
03:54 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Hihi␤
03:55 nbrown rakudo: class A {}; role A {}; say "alive";
03:55 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
03:55 diakopter nbrown: unfortunately we can't figure out why the evalbot spins on class definitions (and others)
03:56 nbrown diakopter: yeah I thought that was true, but it was worth a shot
03:57 nbrown std: class A {}; role A {};
03:57 p6eval std 29223: ok 00:00 105m␤
03:57 nbrown diakopter: I was just wondering if it was valid to name a class and a role the same thing
03:59 JimmyZ rakudo: Str.^methods.grep({ ~$^a eq 'foo' })[0]("hihi").say
03:59 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: invoke() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
03:59 JimmyZ ng: Str.^methods.grep({ ~$^a eq 'foo' })[0]("hihi").sayng:
03:59 p6eval ng f2ba53: Confused at line 1, near "Str.^metho"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
03:59 JimmyZ ng: Str.^methods.grep({ ~$^a eq 'foo' })[0]("hihi").say:
03:59 p6eval ng f2ba53: Confused at line 1, near "Str.^metho"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
04:04 diakopter nbrown: that's a good question
04:05 perigrin nbrown: I'm guessing here but I can't see how that would be valid given that in perl6 Roles and Classes are interchangeable-ish
04:06 perigrin it fails in Moose because a Role and a Class are each packages and you can't have two packages with the same name.
04:07 diakopter perigrin: I agree...
04:08 diakopter in fact, I suspect Role has a proper superset of Class's semantics
04:08 nbrown perigrin: I agree too, I was just trying to understand the IO portion of S32
04:08 diakopter (implying Class might be redundant)
04:08 perigrin diakopter: not exactly
04:08 nbrown and it has and IO class and role
04:09 nbrown I was trying to determine if that made sense or needed work
04:09 perigrin diakopter: I take that back ... in perl6 you may be right, I'm not entirely sure how the semantics there play out.
04:10 nbrown diakopter: I'm little confused, how might it be redundant?
04:11 perigrin nbrown: if you view a class as an set of Methods and Attributes
04:11 perigrin and a Role as a Set of Methods and Attributes
04:11 diakopter if any Class declaration means the same as a Role declaration with exactly the same content, then it's redundant
04:12 perigrin hmm yeah diakopter just said it much shorter
04:13 diakopter I don't know tho
04:13 nbrown diakopter: ok..... I guess I was a little confused by the superset comment.  I don't really see the difference between the two except how you apply them
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04:14 diakopter ng: die (*)
04:14 p6eval ng f2ba53: too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 9748 (src/builtins/List.pir:144)␤
04:14 diakopter perl6;Code;new ?
04:17 diakopter rakudo: ::die (4)
04:17 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Confused at line 2, near "(4)"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
04:17 diakopter rakudo: ::die(4)
04:17 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 4␤in Main (file /tmp/E9vXTMcdLi, line 0)␤
04:17 diakopter ng: ::die(4)
04:18 p6eval ng f2ba53: Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
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04:24 diakopter ng: my Int $a = 78.8; say $a.WHAT
04:24 p6eval ng f2ba53: Rat()␤
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04:32 Wolfman2000 I'll be back on...within an hour. even if I idle.
04:33 diakopter TimToady: S05:2291
04:34 diakopter should that list include something like "a reference to [a rule that causes a reference to] itself"
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04:37 diakopter pmichaud: any idea? (does ltm include only regular languages)
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05:10 Wolfman2000 evening/morning
05:12 diakopter , the first day
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06:30 diakopter [OT] http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/11/progra​mming-with-impossible-functions.html
06:52 TimToady diakopter: S05:2258 already disallows recursion on LTM
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07:34 moritz_ good morning
07:41 colomon morning.
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07:46 dukeleto moritz_, colomon: mornin'
07:47 colomon o/
07:49 colomon think I've got the boy asleep, back to bed for me...
07:49 moritz_ good night
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08:12 mathw Good morning
08:25 pugs_svn r29224 | moritz++ | [advent] volunteer for 4th Dec; brainstorming
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09:40 sjohnson rakudo:  my $x = "\t"; say split("\t", $x).perl;
09:40 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: ["", ""]␤
09:40 mathw hi sjohnson
09:41 sjohnson y0
09:41 sjohnson mathw: do you know if you can somehow return the same result in p5?  it will return nothing
09:41 sjohnson as opposed to two empty strings
09:42 moritz_ sjohnson: yes, write it with comb
09:42 sjohnson ...  what is that   *hides under pillow*
09:42 moritz_ $x.comb(/\T+/)
09:42 mathw comb is much like split, but you say what you want to keep
09:42 moritz_ comb is searching for what you want, split is search for what you don't want
09:43 sjohnson but in p5 though?
09:43 mathw rakudo: my $x = "\t"; $x.comb(/\T+/).perl.say;
09:43 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: []␤
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09:47 moritz_ in p5: grep length, split /\t/, $x;
09:48 sjohnson i tried Dumper on that
09:48 sjohnson doesn't print anything...
09:48 sjohnson *scratches head*
09:49 moritz_ oh wait
09:49 moritz_ I misunderstood
09:50 moritz_ print Dumper [split(/\t/, $x), $x =~ /\t\z/ ? '' : ()]
09:50 moritz_ or so
09:51 sjohnson thanks
09:51 sjohnson my brother came into my room and brought this to my attention
09:51 * mathw prefers the Perl 6 way
09:51 sjohnson i guessed correctly that it would return nothing, but he thought it was better if it did it the perl6 way
09:51 mathw I find using split and join and so forth as method calls leads to much more readable code
09:51 sjohnson i think i sold him on p6 when i ran rakudo with him in my room
09:51 mathw yay!
09:52 mathw sjohnson++
09:52 sjohnson thanks!
09:53 sjohnson he ran into this problem with Java, where it was doing only half of what p6 was doing
09:53 sjohnson something along the lines of only returning the left empty string
09:53 moritz_ mathw: agreed
09:53 mathw Ah Java
09:54 mathw some of its libraries do strange things
09:54 sjohnson yeah this do.this.that.thenthis is my kind of syntax
09:54 sjohnson another reason why i thought ruby would be great, but then perl 6 came knocking at my door
09:55 moritz_ I'm sure I'll love the feed operators once they are (partially) implemented
09:55 moritz_ writing multiple maps/greps in a statement feels always backwards
09:55 moritz_ but with feeds you can write them in forward
09:56 sjohnson i need to lose my perl virginity, and start using map more often in my code
09:56 sjohnson it's one of those things i know is very cool and powerful, but i'm afraid to use as i keep forgetting the syntax
09:56 moritz_ @list ==> map { 2*$x + 1 } ==> grep { $x !% 3 } ==> my @result
09:57 moritz_ (assuming I understood how feeds are supposed to work)
09:57 mathw sjohnson: I take it you never did functional programming then? That's how I learned to use map.
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09:57 sjohnson mathw: i've used it about 3 times, i kind of get the idea, but maybe my uses are a bit novice-level.  i use it to do quick changes to every element of a list
09:57 mathw That's a perfectly acceptable use of it
09:58 sjohnson but there are probably uses that are beyond my wildest dreams
09:58 mathw It's so ingrained in my way of thinking that I get angry with C++ for not having anonymous functions so I can easily map one over a list
09:58 mathw (bring on the next standard, which does have lambdas)
10:00 sjohnson i probably haven't done any funtional programming.  i don't fully grasp even what the term means
10:00 sjohnson i have heard it used to describe things like ocaml and haskell though
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10:02 sjohnson perl is pretty cool.  i use it a lot at work for my own use
10:03 sjohnson unfortunately not much new stuff / excuses come up to use it at work, so i try to make time for it
10:06 sjohnson i use it for all sorts of great things, like alternate vim frontends so that i quit editing 2 files at once in Vim by accident, or a handler for ls, so that if i type "ls l-"  it knows what i want to do
10:06 sjohnson or ls- l
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10:21 mathw Perl is very cool indeed
10:21 mathw Functional programming would refer to Haskell and OCaml, since they're functional programming languages
10:21 mathw Haskell being just about the purest one going, OCaml is a bit more of a mixture
10:21 sjohnson but does that mean that.. all you do is call functions?
10:21 mathw Perl supports many functional concepts
10:21 sjohnson i am not an expert with perl's OO syntax
10:22 mathw well in its purest form, it means that any function's result is entirely determined by its arguments
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10:22 mathw and before you say well of course
10:22 mathw think about functions which look at other sources of state
10:22 frettled or take user input
10:22 mathw yes
10:23 mathw unfortunately that does mean that in pure functional programming, user input and network or file I/O are difficult to fit into the overall structure
10:23 mathw you have to cheat
10:23 frettled It's when you accept input that nearly all bets are off, muahaha.
10:23 frettled (input from external sources, that is)
10:23 mathw But the advantage is that pure functional code is very easy to reason about
10:23 mathw Proof of correctness is a lot easier
10:23 frettled It is, that's why provers are often written in functional languages.
10:23 mathw Absolutely
10:24 mathw Language researchers are very into it
10:24 mathw Well, some of them - some of them are presumably researching other paradigms
10:25 frettled One of my favourite difficult classes from the university was called Verifiable Programming.
10:25 riffraff joined #perl6
10:25 mathw lots of preconditions, postconditions, invariants, bound functions and proofs?
10:26 frettled No, wait, that was the name of the book.  The course was called Program Specification and Verification.
10:26 mathw I did one called Program Construction and Verification
10:26 mathw which was probably very similar
10:26 frettled The first part of the course deals with how to specify your programs in order to avoid errors, the second part uses Hoare logic etc. for verification and proving.
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10:29 mathw Yes, it's basically the same course I did then
10:29 mathw I really enjoyed it
10:30 frettled Yup.
10:30 frettled The lecturer was Ole-Johan Dahl, quite a character.
10:30 mathw Our lecturer was writing his own textbook on the subject at the time
10:30 mathw He used it as the course text, so we got handed out printouts of the late drafts of it
10:30 mathw So I've got his entire textbook in almost-final form, for free
10:30 frettled :)
10:31 mathw Although have considered buying the actual book a few times
10:31 sjohnson mathw: do you have any preference of C over C++ or vice-versa?
10:32 mathw But it's him I got my thing for correct-by-construction programming from, even if I don't get a chance to exercise that very often
10:32 mathw sjohnson: I prefer C++
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10:35 sjohnson mathw: may i ask a couple questions?  i was thinking of writing maybe an application someday, but i can never decide which one to try and learn
10:35 sjohnson C or C++
10:35 mathw Sure
10:35 sjohnson though, 99% of the things i need coded can be best coded in Perl, so it's not a huge worry, but i am still curious
10:36 mathw I do C++ for a living, so I know a bit of it :)
10:36 sjohnson i do javascript and PHP and some perl for a living, but i'm probably not the best at it :)
10:37 mathw I'm definitely not the best at it, but there's always someone better
10:37 mathw So ask away :)
10:38 jnthn o/
10:38 mathw oh hai jnthn
10:39 mathw By the way, if we're obstructing Perl talk with our other-languages talk, we'll take it somewhere else...
10:41 jnthn I was gonna say we'd happily steal things, but now I see PHP and C++ I'm not so sure that applies... ;-)
10:44 frettled hehe
10:52 mathw lol
10:52 mathw no you probably don't want to
10:53 bryan[c1] 2(jnthn2): why doesnt me perl work still?
10:58 jnthn bryan[c1]: Well, because you didn't figure out why it won't...I kinda already gave you all my suggestions last night though.
10:58 bryan[c1] last night?
10:58 bryan[c1] im still in the same day hahahah
10:59 bryan[c1] seriously though, i uninstalled activeperl and installed strawberry perl
10:59 bryan[c1] i dont understand how it could just sit there and say it doesnt exist
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13:16 takadonet hey all
13:16 moritz_ wow, quiet in here today
13:16 moritz_ hi takadonet
13:16 takadonet moritz_: how are you doing?
13:17 moritz_ stressed
13:18 takadonet moritz_: work?
13:18 mathw Hey
13:18 moritz_ kinda
13:20 moritz_ takadonet: what about you?
13:22 takadonet moritz_: Busy at work working on my large Perl 5 project (485 modules) while helping one of our co-op student speed up his Perl 5 script which working on a data set of a few million records
13:23 moritz_ takadonet: what's the project about?
13:23 moritz_ some kind of data analysis?
13:24 takadonet moritz+: Yes, for bioinformatics. I'm been heavily modifying this application called Gendb: http://www.cebitec.uni-bielefeld.d​e/groups/brf/software/gendb_info/
13:26 moritz_ sounds pretty interesting
13:27 moritz_ sadly bielefeld is part of a huge consiparcy, and I can't take anything seriously that comes out of bielefeld :-)
13:27 takadonet moritz_ : I really love it . This going to be my project for the next few years
13:27 takadonet I heard that
13:28 takadonet but really have no idea what's it really about
13:28 takadonet <--- Canadian
13:28 moritz_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy
13:31 takadonet wow hehe
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13:37 * moritz_ wonders if pmichaud++ is doing a rakudo day or so soon
13:45 payload joined #perl6
13:46 moritz_ std: undef
13:46 p6eval std 29224: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Obsolete use of undef as a value; instead, in Perl 6 please use the most appropriate of:␤       Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤   a more specific undefined type object such as Int,␤       Nil as an empty list,␤    *.notdef as a matcher or method,␤
13:46 p6eval ..Any:U as a type con…
14:04 pugs_svn r29225 | masak++ | [misc/perl6advent-2009/schedule] nailed down a few topics
14:08 colomon joined #perl6
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14:12 colomon moritz_: I hope pmichaud++ is doing a rakudo day today.  I think every day I'm the only one doing ng commits is probably two days later it gets....  ;)
14:13 mberends moritz_: Bielefeld: klasse :-)
14:13 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning
14:13 mberends morning!
14:16 perlygatekeeper joined #perl6
14:20 dbrock` colomon: haha
14:21 moritz_ colomon: I hope you're not serious; so far your ng commits looked pretty good
14:23 iblechbot_ joined #perl6
14:24 pmichaud I'm surrfering from ISP fail at the moment :0|
14:24 pmichaud *suffering
14:24 frettled Pain! Suffering! Torment!
14:24 pmichaud ISP currently giving about 30% packet loss
14:25 frettled That sounds like a good name for a TECO parser for Perl 6.
14:25 moritz_ ISP--
14:26 mberends It was off topic, but hopefully bryan[c1] of http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-12-01#i_1785868 got his Strawberry Perl to work. OTOH, something must have gone badly wrong between asking a simple question and getting banned from #perl. His argument with SirKay was something both of them should have been mature enough to avoid. It goes against the #perl6 spirit of friendliness and wasted a lot of our mindshare. Next time bryan[c1] shows up, let's giv
14:26 mberends e him lots of hugs.
14:27 moritz_ ENOHUGME
14:28 mberends awww
14:28 hugme joined #perl6
14:28 moritz_ it seems hugme doesn't recover from netsplits :(
14:28 mberends hugme: hug moritz_
14:28 * hugme hugs moritz_
14:29 moritz_ sorry huf, tab fail :-)
14:29 huf ;) OH NO
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14:36 zaslon joined #perl6
14:39 frettled mberends: yikes, I'm glad I slept through that.
14:39 frettled hugme: hug me
14:39 * hugme hugs frettled
14:39 * frettled smiles again.
14:39 mberends frettled: had to read it in the backlog. addicted to backlogging ;)
14:41 rodi joined #perl6
14:41 frettled mberends: I'm kindof addicted to backlogging, but I'm slowly getting over it.  :D
14:42 frettled So, does anybody else here want to join in implementing PST?
14:42 moritz_ PST?
14:42 frettled Pain, Suffering and Torment - a TECO parser in Perl 6 :D
14:43 xinming joined #perl6
14:44 moritz_ you mean parsing things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Ed​itor_and_Corrector#Example_programs ?
14:44 frettled yep
14:45 frettled I usually use TECO as a «STFU»-thing for people who think Perl is like line noise.
14:48 rfordinal left #perl6
14:48 frettled On a more serious note, I think it might be an opportunity for learning some grammar and parsing skills.  There is this thing about time, though, *Sigh*.
14:49 moritz_ well, my TODO list for Perl 6 is already quite long
14:49 moritz_ pushing it to the end will do it no good
14:50 arnsholt frettled: The TECO parser should have three main components, named Pain, Suffering and Torment ;p
14:51 quantumEd joined #perl6
14:51 moritz_ (among them are: implement some builtins in ng; write more for the book; blog; write for the Perl 6 advent calendar; write a synopsis on testing; hack a bit on dev.perl.org/perl6/; convince TheDamian to finally put the current version of this S26 draft into the pugs repo; ...)
14:51 frettled arnsholt: :D
14:51 rgrau_ joined #perl6
14:51 frettled moritz_: Yes, that ought to suffice for April …
14:52 moritz_ continued: help proto; investigate more about putting Perl 6 modules on CPAN.
14:53 moritz_ frettled: if I got a job as full-time Perl 6 hacker, I'd have a chance of getting 3/4 or so done until April :-)
14:55 frettled moritz_: the last thingy can be solved through forgiveness ;)
14:55 frettled moritz_: eh, the last thing from the first list, that is.
14:55 * frettled pats itself.
14:57 mathw hmm the perl 6 advent calendar
14:58 frettled yes, I should check that one out
15:03 * mathw subscribes to it
15:03 mathw Are authors required?
15:04 moritz_ yes
15:04 moritz_ see http://svn.pugscode.org/pu​gs/misc/perl6advent-2009/
15:06 mathw excellent
15:06 pugs_svn r29226 | jafelds++ | Add other ideas for topics.
15:07 mathw I shall have to think of a topic or two I can write about usefully
15:07 mathw and grab some days
15:07 mathw and sort out anything else that needs sorting out
15:08 * frettled too :D
15:08 moritz_ mathw: you don't even need to come up with ideas on your own, you can use some from the brainstorming list
15:08 mathw yes, but then there's the matter of precisely how much scope to use etc.
15:08 mathw something about Perl 6's OOP is probably a good starting point
15:08 mathw or maybe the joy of for loops
15:09 mathw when combined with pointy blocks
15:09 mathw and the Z operator
15:09 mathw and prefix:<^>
15:09 frettled . o O ( against loops?  Could we have that? )
15:09 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (1..6).pick(2)
15:09 moritz_ zip is another good idea
15:09 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 61␤
15:09 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (1..6).pick(2).join(" ")
15:09 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 5 4␤
15:09 Wolfman2000 ...I forgot. Does pick allow picking the same value twice?
15:09 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (1..6).pick(2).join(" ")
15:09 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 4 2␤
15:09 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (1..6).pick(2).join(" ")
15:10 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 1 2␤
15:10 mathw okay
15:10 frettled rakudo: say (1..2).pick(4).join(" ")
15:10 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
15:10 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 2 1␤
15:10 mathw I should sign myself up
15:10 mathw shame my pugscode SVN details are at home
15:10 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (1..2).pick(4, true).join(" ")
15:10 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Confused at line 2, near "(4, true)."␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
15:10 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say (1..2).pick(4, Bool::True).join(" ")
15:10 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: No candidates found to invoke␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
15:11 frettled The rakudobot is annoyingly quick these days ;)
15:11 Wolfman2000 ...could have thought there was an option.
15:11 moritz_ rakudo: say (1..2).pick(4, :replace).perl
15:11 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: [1, 2, 2, 1]␤
15:11 Wolfman2000 ...I thought adverbs weren't implemented in rakudo yet
15:11 moritz_ that's not an adverb to an operator
15:12 moritz_ it's just a named argument
15:12 pugs_svn r29227 | jafelds++ | Plan to discuss this topic.
15:12 Wolfman2000 ...oops. wonder why it didn't show that I uploaded schedule
15:12 * Wolfman2000 doesn't understand pugs_svn
15:13 moritz_ pugs_svn: just reports revision number, author and log message
15:13 Wolfman2000 I could have thought it also reported files on occasion
15:13 moritz_ never
15:13 moritz_ but people generally put a small moniker in square brackets into the commit message
15:14 moritz_ to indicate the subsytem that was changed
15:14 Wolfman2000 ...yeah, that
15:14 moritz_ [advent] or [t/spec] or so
15:24 rgrau_ moritz_: how about announcing the perl6 advent on twitter account? (individually or every day)
15:24 frettled or on perl6.org :D
15:26 mathw and everywhere
15:26 mathw everywhere!!
15:27 Wolfman2000 you guys are more fanatic about Perl 6 than I realized
15:29 frettled Huh?
15:29 colomon_ joined #perl6
15:30 Wolfman2000 ...don't worry about t
15:30 Wolfman2000 about it*
15:30 * Wolfman2000 starts some of his final assignments.
15:31 mathw I have pinned my entire future sanity on Perl 6
15:31 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl The Perl 6 advent calendar: http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/
15:31 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
15:32 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl perl6 advent calendar day 1: get and install rakudo http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/01/day-1-getting-rakudo/
15:32 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
15:33 moritz_ rgrau_++ # good idea
15:33 alester joined #perl6
15:34 colomon joined #perl6
15:35 ng_feed rakudo-ng: (Jonathan Scott Duff)++
15:35 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Add while/until statement modifiers
15:36 * jnthn back
15:39 jeremiah Whoah, that perl 6 advent calendar is a great idea. :)
15:41 frettled Oooh, hugme-tweeting, that's neat.
15:43 Tene pmichaud: I bet you know what I'm going to ask about. ;)
15:44 pmichaud Tene: indeed, I do
15:44 pmichaud I worked on it some last night but then ISP connection failed (and I was getting tired)
15:44 mathw I assume hugme only pays attention to certain people
15:44 mathw o/ jnthn
15:44 pmichaud and this morning I'm trying to find a 50% slowdown in Parrot
15:45 pmichaud (an as-yet-unexplained 50% execution cost, that is)
15:45 mathw ouch
15:45 jnthn pmichaud: huh?
15:45 mathw good luck
15:45 jnthn pmichaud: Parrot good 50% slower?
15:45 jnthn *got
15:45 jnthn lol
15:45 pmichaud jnthn: no
15:45 pmichaud see  http://nopaste.snit.ch/18908
15:45 masak joined #perl6
15:45 masak oh hai #perl6
15:45 jnthn lolitsmasak
15:46 masak omgitsjnthn
15:46 mathw \o/ masak
15:46 alexn_org joined #perl6
15:46 masak I'm thinking I might write the Dec 2 advent post about .fmt today. that way, I don't have to write it tomorrow, just post it. :)
15:46 jnthn pmichaud: huh...wtf.
15:47 mathw masak: good plan
15:47 pmichaud jnthn: that's exactly what I said :)
15:47 mathw I'm already thinking about my advent calendar post
15:47 mathw I may even do two
15:47 mathw or three
15:47 pmichaud did I get signed up for any dates this week?
15:47 mathw I haven't signed up yet
15:47 masak mathw: better grab the days before they're all occupied! :)
15:47 mathw I need my home laptop for my pugscode SVN access
15:47 moritz_ pmichaud: don't think I've seen you in the list
15:48 mathw I'd like December the 6th though
15:48 pmichaud I'll take Dec 5
15:48 masak pmichaud: do you have a pugs commitbit? :)
15:48 pmichaud masak: yes, but I have a very slow ISP connection today
15:49 pmichaud I suspect it'll take an hour to get an up-to-date copy of the pugs repo
15:49 jnthn pmichaud: It's not in any way just that somehow we keep a reference to the parse tree around?
15:49 masak pmichaud: I'll add you, then.
15:49 moritz_ pmichaud: I'll volunteer you
15:49 jnthn pmichaud: And then GC keeps marking it and so kills us?
15:49 pmichaud jnthn: and then GC cost?  might be
15:49 pmichaud jnthn: I'm working on tracking it down now.... tht's going to be my rakudo day for vienna.pm grant
15:49 mathw Could somebody updating the schedule add me for the 6th as well please?
15:49 jnthn :-)
15:50 mathw I'll porobably do at least one other day as well, but I need to think about scheduling
15:50 pugs_svn r29228 | moritz++ | [advent] reorganize brainstorm list; volunteer pmichaud++ for Dec 5
15:50 moritz_ mathw: will do
15:50 masak dang, moritz_ beat me to it. :)
15:51 pmichaud moritz_++   # thanks
15:51 moritz_ nearly-free karma
15:51 pmichaud masak++  # just because
15:51 pugs_svn r29229 | moritz++ | [advent] mathw++ for Dec. 6
15:51 mathw hugme: hug moritz_++
15:51 * hugme hugs moritz_++
15:51 masak in theory, I have made many excellent commits. :)
15:51 jnthn Ooh, I should volunteer myself too.
15:51 jnthn Not for this week though.
15:51 masak jnthn: ...before it's too late! :)
15:51 mathw I can see I'm going to have to thinka bout scheduling quickly
15:52 mathw but for now, I have to think about getting my car fixed
15:52 * mathw -> gone
15:52 jnthn masak: I only have checkouts of parts of the Pugs repo.
15:52 jnthn :-/
15:52 jnthn masak: Where is the bit I need?
15:53 masak misc/perl6advent-2009/schedule
15:53 pmichaud jnthn: misc/perl6-advent-2009
15:53 jnthn thanks
15:53 pmichaud what masak++ said
15:53 * jnthn grabs that
15:53 Tene jnthn: if you want to see if it's GC, try running with GC disabled.
15:53 jnthn pmichaud: ^^
15:53 jnthn ;-)
15:53 masak anyone want to post a comment to http://oylenshpeegul.vox.com/library/post​/perl-advent-calendars.html?_c=feed-atom about perl6advent?
15:53 pugs_svn r29230 | duff++ | [advent] volunteer for a couple of days
15:53 pugs_svn r29231 | duff++ | [advent] add a potential topic
15:54 PerlJam masak: I did, but it apparently didn't go through because of some problem setting up my vox account.
15:54 PerlJam (good $localtime btw)
15:54 masak PerlJam: ah.
15:54 masak PerlJam++ anyway.
15:56 amackera joined #perl6
15:58 PerlJam doh!  The vox email confirmation was flagged as spam.  (it's been so long since this has bitten me that I totally forgot to even check for it until now)
15:58 Tene pmichaud: very well understood.  I fell asleep as soon as I got home last night, and slept mostly through the night.
15:58 masak PerlJam: the curse of false positives.
15:58 tylerni7 joined #perl6
15:58 pmichaud Tene: yes -- at least I got a very good night's sleep... best one in a while
15:58 perlygatekeeper left #perl6
16:00 Psyche^ joined #perl6
16:01 Tene Same here. :)
16:02 pugs_svn r29232 | jnthn++ | [advent] Volunteer for two days.
16:02 pugs_svn r29233 | jnthn++ | [advent] You maded me a topic but I scheduled it.
16:02 pmichaud http://nopaste.snit.ch/18909
16:03 jnthn pmichaud: Hmm. That doesn't seem to account for all of it then.
16:03 jnthn pmichaud: How much gets blown by IMCC?
16:04 * jnthn isn't so sure why it'd be different there though...
16:04 diakopter who doth disturb my slumber [with a hilite]?
16:04 jnthn pmichaud: Check that nqp fake executable doesn't start with a different runcore.
16:05 pmichaud jnthn: that's why I did the run of nqp.pbc
16:05 pmichaud (second run)
16:05 pmichaud doesn't appear to be significant difference between nqp.pbc and nqp fakecutable
16:06 Tene Oh, I know!  I could implement macros in ng, and then write an advent post on them!  Nothing could go wrong with that plan!
16:06 PerlJam pmichaud: Would you volunteer for the Dec 24 slot?  Somehow I think it fitting that yours be the last post  :)
16:06 pmichaud PerlJam: yes, I'll volunteer for that slot
16:06 pmichaud also, note that Dec 17 is the release date
16:06 pmichaud (it's also my wife's birthday :)
16:06 PerlJam are you volunteering for that date as well?
16:07 pmichaud not yet :)
16:07 payload joined #perl6
16:08 Tene PerlJam: no, he's volunteering his wife.
16:08 pmichaud what's the pir opcode to disable gc?
16:08 PerlJam I'm not sure she'd agree to that :)
16:09 pugs_svn r29234 | duff++ | [advent] pmichaud takes Dec 24
16:09 quantumEd joined #perl6
16:10 [particle] hrmm, there's sweep 0, mark 0, and one more....
16:11 pmichaud I see  "sweepoff" and "collectoff"
16:12 pmurias joined #perl6
16:12 [particle] sweepoff will disable marking
16:13 [particle] collectoff will disable sweeping, iirc
16:13 [particle] don't quote me on that, the names are funny
16:13 arnsholt That sounds intuitive =p
16:14 pmichaud =item B<sweepoff>()
16:14 pmichaud Disable GC runs. (Nestable)
16:14 pmichaud =item B<collectoff>()
16:14 pmichaud Disable GC runs (nestable).
16:14 perlygatekeeper joined #perl6
16:14 pmichaud docs appear to be LTA
16:14 [particle] op sweepoff() {
16:14 [particle] Parrot_block_GC_mark(interp);
16:14 [particle] }
16:14 [particle] op collectoff() {
16:14 [particle] Parrot_block_GC_sweep(interp);
16:14 [particle] }
16:14 [particle] the docs are definitely LTA
16:14 pmichaud code is far more informative and concise than the docs here :-|
16:15 [particle] the op names are LTA as well
16:15 arnsholt Whut? Since when do I have +o? (Or has my IRC client lost it?)
16:15 pmichaud well, it looks to me like the problem is indeed GC, and it's far more serious than we had imagined.
16:15 [particle] don't ask why, just bask in the glow of +o
16:16 [particle] i don't understand the big slowdown between executing directly and separate compile/load/execute
16:16 arnsholt Heh
16:16 pmichaud [particle]: it's gc
16:17 pmichaud [particle]: it's the cost of marking the parse, past, and post structures, I suspect
16:17 [particle] shouldn't they disappear after compilation?
16:17 pmichaud if there aren't any references to them, probably
16:17 pmichaud I'm not sure there aren't any references
16:18 [particle] hrmm, what if you put a sweep 1; collect 1; after pir generation
16:19 [particle] unconditionally run gc after compilation finishes
16:19 pmichaud I suspect it makes no difference
16:19 pmichaud because it's the existence of the tree that is expensive, and you incur the cost on every GC run
16:19 pmichaud forcing a GC run doesn't avoid the cost later
16:19 [particle] but generating the pir is fast
16:20 pmichaud right
16:20 [particle] so, in the interpreter teardown after generating pir, all objects are unconditionally destroyed
16:20 pmichaud I'm not following where you're headed with this.
16:20 [particle] but that's not necessarially timed, because it can happen outside the gc, in global
16:20 [particle] destruction
16:21 [particle] hrmm, no, you're using 'time'
16:21 pmichaud if you're claiming that arranging for the parse/past/post trees to be reclaimed will help us, I think we're missing the point.
16:21 [particle] i'm saying, when you write pir to a file and load it back in, you've destroyed the parse/past/post trees
16:22 pmichaud [particle]: yes.
16:22 pmichaud which means that the difference in execution is due to the existence of parse/past/post
16:22 [particle] but not necessarially so when you compile/execute in the same interp
16:22 PerlJam [particle]: you think the destruction takes so much time?
16:22 [particle] and you can't mark them read-only
16:23 [particle] no, i'm thinking of ways that those trees can be skipped by gc
16:23 [particle] generational gc would help
16:23 pmichaud it's a little worse than this...
16:23 pmichaud these are not big trees
16:24 PerlJam looks like the two of you have something to bring up in #ps today  :)
16:24 pmichaud this program is *tiny*
16:24 pmichaud it has basically two subs
16:24 [particle] yes, the program is tiny, but has many pcc calls
16:24 [particle] which means many contexts and arrays
16:24 pmichaud [particle]: you're still missing the point
16:24 pmichaud the pcc calls aren't the speed bottleneck we're aiming at
16:25 pmichaud the number of pcc calls is the same when run combined and when run as separate pir
16:25 [particle] yeah, you're right
16:25 nihiliad joined #perl6
16:25 pmichaud I'm saying that fib.nqp produces very small trees
16:25 [particle] my jaw pain is getting in the way of clear thought.
16:25 pmichaud very small parse/post/past trees
16:25 pmichaud and if a program this small can produce trees that result in a 10 second slowdown
16:26 pmichaud (merely by their existence)
16:26 pmichaud then we have a serious problem for any larger programs, regardless of the number of pcc calls involved
16:27 * pmichaud prepares to write this up for parrot-dev
16:27 pmichaud oh, first I want to add my instrumentation
16:27 pmichaud (will let us see the time used for each stage of compilation)
16:28 [particle] wish you could show the # pmcs created for each stage
16:31 pmichaud is there an easy way to get that number from pir?
16:37 pmurias TimToady: would it be possible to make viv attach the unmangled operator name to nodes resulting from parsing an infix node?
16:39 TimToady that's what SYM is
16:39 TimToady or do you mean including the infix:<>?
16:40 pmurias checking...
16:40 ascent_ joined #perl6
16:41 pmurias TimToady: they don't seem to have a SYM
16:41 TimToady if I do viv -e '1 + 1' I get a SYM of +
16:41 pmurias what i want is to get * from VAST::infix__S_Plus
16:42 TimToady you mean +?
16:42 TimToady or is the * making it generic?  :)
16:43 TimToady the SYM: + is in the infixish node, not in the . node
16:44 pmurias i mean + sorry
16:44 pmurias what exactly is the . node?
16:45 masak loliwroteadraft: http://gist.github.com/246434 # Perl 6 advent blog post about .fmt
16:45 TimToady the equivalent of .caps in the match object
16:46 TimToady it the nodes in textual order as a list
16:46 TimToady for semantic purposes you generally want to use one of the named entries instead of indexing .
16:47 cdarroch joined #perl6
16:48 TimToady the . entry is more for translators and pretty-printers
16:48 pmurias the reason i couldn't find the SYM is that i pruned the '.' before dumping the tree to yaml
16:50 TimToady I guess there ought to be a name for the op to go with left and right
16:51 pmurias go with left = ?
16:53 TimToady huh?
16:54 masak TimToady: I asked a few days ago whether the PairValSet generated by SomeEnum.mapping guarantees anything about the order, when doing .pairs, .keys, etc. maybe I missed your reply in the backlogs.
16:54 TimToady it looks like I need to hoist the infix: pointer from inside its own node to the infixish node
16:54 TimToady masak: in my copy it now says PairValSeq instead, but thinking about whether that makes sense in general
16:55 pmurias TimToady: what does "go with left and right" mean in this context?
16:55 masak TimToady: also, the other question: what do we gain from talking about PairValSet and PerlValSeq rather than Set[PairVal] and Seq[PairVal]?
16:55 TimToady pmurias: I'm talking about the keys into the infixish hash
16:56 TimToady masak: been thinking about that too  :)
16:56 masak TimToady: ok, good. :)
16:58 masak from my point of view, the parameterized-roles type system looks more credible if Perl 6 dogfoods it, rather than doing the antipattern and inventing $m * $n classes. :P
16:59 TimToady well, orthogonality is good, especially where dehuffmanization is fine, but we can also have shortcut names, and a few shortcuts don't go $m * $n
16:59 TimToady they just give you N degrees of separation with a small N
17:00 masak nod.
17:00 TimToady part of what I'm trying to balance there is the utility of being able to extract the original declaration order, versus
17:01 TimToady allowing the programmer to set it up that way if needed
17:01 TimToady my @mapping = enum <foo bar baz>;  enum FBB = @mapping   # speculative syntax
17:02 TimToady well, s/my/consant/
17:02 TimToady t
17:02 masak that second assignment feels odd.
17:02 TimToady the arg the other way is that it gives better introspection of an enum you didn't set up
17:03 TimToady but it pretty much precludes just using the Stash as the source of it, since that's unordered
17:03 TimToady so we'd have to have the mapping be stored duplicately
17:04 pmurias TimToady: it might be better to always have an args attribute instead of sometimes having left and right
17:04 TimToady or not use a stash, and fake a lookup with Foo::bar is used
17:04 zloyrusskiy joined #perl6
17:06 masak TimToady: I'm looking at gimme5 and LazyMap.pm, taking breaks when my brain explodes. what do 'B', 'C' and 'L' stand for in the blessed LazyMap hash? 'block', something and something?
17:09 TimToady block, called, and lazy
17:09 masak thanks.
17:10 TimToady thing is, a given call of the block may produce more than one value, and iter only returns one
17:10 masak I see.
17:10 TimToady but calling the block again on the processed value would be wrong, so they're stored separately
17:11 justatheory joined #perl6
17:11 TimToady it's actually pretty awful to try to debug code using it :/
17:11 colomon masak++  # had no idea about .fmt before this.
17:11 TimToady which was the other reason for avoiding lazymaps whenever possible; it wasn't just about efficiency
17:11 masak I also looked a bit at the STD.pm5 output. it doesn't help me yet, except that I note that it's full of lazymap calls.
17:12 TimToady only where something might backtrack
17:12 masak colomon: I'm surprised about how unknown .fmt is. :)
17:12 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'Failure()<0xb4ff6b24>': Failure()<0xb4ff605c>
17:12 TimToady unfortunately, it tends to propagate upward to the top of the rule
17:12 masak zaslon: no, I haven't!
17:12 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
17:14 TimToady I wonder if zaslon restarts itself periodically and gets confused when it does
17:15 masak maybe I should blog more about failures... :)
17:15 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'November 30 2009 -- gobsmacked but still in the loop': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39966?from=rss
17:15 masak zaslon: oh, come on! that was yesterday.
17:15 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
17:16 masak zaslon: don't be sorry, be quiet! </space-balls>
17:16 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
17:16 * colomon feels slightly guilty about encouraging masak to blog again less than 24 hours after finishing his marathon...
17:17 masak colomon: not to worry. it was my own choice. :)
17:17 masak it will be a few days before I summarize the November blogging, though.
17:19 pugs_svn r29235 | pmurias++ | [mildew] start updating to newest STD
17:19 pugs_svn r29236 | pmurias++ | [mildew] t/01-sanity/01-tap.t passes using the new STD
17:19 justatheory_ joined #perl6
17:20 masak I think I'll withdraw now to make some tea, and stare a bit more at the LazyMap implementation. :)
17:20 masak see y'all around. o/
17:20 TimToady pmurias: you do get args for a list associative operator, but it seems like ->{left} is faster than ->{args}[0]
17:21 pmurias faster to type?
17:22 pmurias TimToady: having args for left and right associative operators would allow the same code branch to handle them
17:22 pmurias TimToady: btw, VAST is now much sainer then when i made the STD snapshot
17:26 TimToady I blame diakopter++
17:27 TimToady that's not left and right as in associative, that's just the left arg and the right arg
17:27 TimToady the op may or may not be associative at all
17:29 TimToady but possibly I should rename args to "parcel" anyway, in which case it makes more sense to do binaries and unarys that way too
17:30 TimToady *unaries  # who invented this stupid orthography, anyway
17:30 stephenlb joined #perl6
17:34 pmurias was orthography designed or were the most common ways to write something codified?
17:34 TimToady mostly the latter
17:38 TimToady but Samuel Johnson could have used a course in morphophonemics before doing his dictionary  :)
17:39 TimToady and Webster's fixes were mostly cosmetic huffmanizations
17:40 TimToady maybe we should all just switch to chinese characters, and then we wouldn't have to worry about how it's pronounced to read it.  :D
17:46 zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': http:
17:46 jnthn failurl
17:47 frettled heh
17:47 brrant joined #perl6
17:47 sjn frettled uses http as a protocol for his blog! NICE! :D
17:48 frettled :D
17:48 zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': http:
17:48 * frettled eyes zaslon suspiciously.
17:49 frettled hmm, how did I use those bots again.  *checks earlier blogpost*
17:50 frettled pointme: zaslon
17:50 pointme Tracks blog posts. It can be instructed to follow new blogs from the channel if you are particularly brave. It is written in Perl 6: http://github.com/carlins/rssbot
17:50 moritz_ pointme: hugme
17:50 pointme Hugme hugs people! And gives commit access to various repos. It's source is at http://github.com/moritz/hugme/
17:50 frettled zaslon: link frettled
17:50 zaslon frettled's blog is at http://howcaniexplainthis.blogspot.com/
17:50 frettled So that works, but not the one that's extracted from RSS/Atom, hmm.
17:51 diakopter pmurias: hi
17:51 zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': http:
17:54 zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': http:
17:55 moritz_ lolzaslonfail
17:57 frettled I have a strong suspicion we'll see a repeat performance in thirty seconds.
17:57 zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': http:
17:57 frettled oh
17:57 frettled Argh.
17:58 fridim_ joined #perl6
17:59 was kicked by moritz_: moritz_
18:00 frettled Duh, good point, I could have done that, too.  :)
18:00 TimToady I was just about to, but was waiting for one more time :)
18:01 pmurias diakopter: hi
18:02 frettled . o O ( I wonder if I can manage to sneak in a question to Barack Obama about Perl 6 when he's in Oslo next week )
18:02 pmurias when will Perl 6 be founded? ;)
18:03 frettled «Will the US increase Perl 6 funding to secure peace?»
18:03 moritz_ 0.1% of their defense costs will do nicely
18:04 moritz_ "defense"
18:04 TimToady given the email logs, Perl 6 climate research is obviously all faked
18:05 frettled this may cause some concern
18:05 * TimToady wonders how often the phrase "just fake it for now" pops up...
18:06 snearch joined #perl6
18:07 barney joined #perl6
18:07 moritz_ echo 'select count(*) from irclog where line like "%just fake it%";' | mysql moritz5
18:07 moritz_ count(*)
18:07 moritz_ 5
18:08 moritz_ "fake it" 68 times :-)
18:08 diakopter Results 1 - 10 of about 2,750,000 for "just fake it"
18:08 TimToady and we've lost all the data from before 1980!!!
18:09 diakopter (google)
18:09 diakopter bing:  1-10 of 152,000,000 results
18:09 diakopter lol
18:09 TimToady (all the Perl 6 data)
18:10 moritz_ bing knows a lot more about faking than google
18:10 diakopter oh, and bing just found 3,000,000 more instances... now it says 155,000,000
18:10 diakopter way to go bing!
18:11 jnthn Yeah, but is it just faking it? :-)
18:12 TimToady and if so, is it really 155,000,001?
18:12 Wolfman2000 ...is bing really supposed to be that good, despite it being a Microsoft product?
18:13 TimToady vacuums have to be good at sucking
18:14 moritz_ I've banned bing from some of my sites, because the crawler referer-spammed
18:16 frettled I think we've router-blocked Yahoo's crawlers, because they insist on DDoS-ing our webservers.
18:16 diakopter Ω.suck
18:16 diakopter std: Ω.suck
18:16 p6eval std 29236: Undeclared routine:␤  'Ω' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 103m␤
18:17 TimToady gee, where'd you find the horseshoe dingbat?  :)
18:17 frettled pure luck
18:17 TimToady but as you can see, if you hang it upside down, all the luck runs out
18:18 moritz_ frettled: that one is curious too... three times more hits from yahoo crawler than from googlebot, but only about 1% of visitors coming from it
18:18 frettled yeah, that was clumsy, diakopter.
18:18 diakopter Ѡ
18:18 TimToady what's that, a goat-shoe?
18:18 frettled moritz_: they typically send several parallel crawlers, visiting the same URLs, for reasons unknown to Man.
18:19 diakopter cyrillic omega, apparently
18:19 diakopter but yes, used as goat shoes in the #perl pen
18:19 frettled so it's not Ѡelsh?
18:21 TimToady I wonder how soon governments start outlawing fonts that contain indistinguishable glyphs...
18:22 frettled There has already been something about it for IDN.
18:23 frettled The cyrillic version of a, for instance, cannot be used for at least some TLDs.
18:23 mberends joined #perl6
18:24 moritz_ the German NIC only allows 4 non-ascii characters that commonly used in .de
18:24 moritz_ (in .de domains, that is)
18:28 TimToady whenever my cat sits on my lap between my laptop and the base station, my wifi connection drops; I must have a dense cat
18:28 moritz_ .oO( or the cat interferes? )
18:29 TimToady cats do seem to know a lot about wavefunctions
18:30 frettled Your cat obviously contains a lot of water.
18:30 frettled It's water-fat.
18:30 TimToady saltwater, I believe
18:31 frettled You know how to use your krysknife, I suppose. ;)
18:35 frettled Or perhaps you are not Fremen.  Hmm.  Wrong context?
18:36 allbery_b one of the major absorption frequencies of water is in the middle of the 2.4 wireless band
18:37 kthakore joined #perl6
18:37 allbery_b inconvenient around "ugly bags of mostly water"
18:37 kthakore hi
18:37 Avada joined #perl6
18:37 frettled allbery_b: yup, that was the hint, sortof.  It's bloody annoying.
18:37 kthakore can some one answer this?  http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/co​mments/a9r6s/why_perl_lost_it/c0giz5a
18:37 kthakore I am curious as well
18:38 kthakore what would the perl6 code of that look like?
18:39 jnthn say $foo[0]<bar>
18:40 kthakore jnthn:  wat are the equivalents of the other line?
18:40 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}, {baz => 38, bye => 71}, {qux => 99, yow => 11}; say $foo[0]<bar>;
18:40 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Symbol '$foo' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/IssprLTGsq:2)␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
18:40 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}, {baz => 38, bye => 71}, {qux => 99, yow => 11}; say @foo[0]<bar>;
18:40 brrant joined #perl6
18:41 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
18:41 Wolfman2000 ...wonder where I went wrong.
18:41 * Wolfman2000 just goes back to his homework.
18:41 kthakore Wolfman2000: *g*
18:41 jnthn my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}, ...;
18:42 jnthn rakudo: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]<bar>
18:42 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
18:42 jnthn ...
18:42 jnthn Anyway, the main point is that you don't dereference stuff explicitly in Perl 6.
18:42 Wolfman2000 ...can't just be the both of us, can it jnthn?
18:43 jnthn Wolfman2000: Suspect it's the bot. It's been acting up for ages.
18:43 jnthn rakudo: class Foo { }; say "ok"
18:43 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
18:45 dakkar joined #perl6
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18:46 pmurias kthakore: that reddit post is very silly
18:47 TimToady but you repeat yourself
18:50 Wolfman2000 jnthn: I just ran my short program on Feather. It worked
18:50 kthakore p6eval:  um ...
18:51 kthakore Wolfman2000:  wth?
18:51 kthakore he just called me silly and left :p
18:51 kthakore hilarious
18:52 kthakore oops he didn't call me silly stupid me
18:52 Avada left #perl6
18:52 kthakore jnthn:  anywho ... are there different way of accessing the @foo like in perl5
18:55 jnthn kthakore: Well...there are...but unlike Perl 5 I think there's One Obvious Right Way. :-)
18:55 jnthn kthakore: I mean, you could write @foo[0]{'bar'} too.
18:56 Wolfman2000 actually jnthn, that fails on rakudo
18:56 Wolfman2000 Could not find non-existent sub bar
18:56 jnthn Wolfman2000: I suspect you didn't write what I just did.
18:56 * Wolfman2000 just compiled the master branch too
18:56 jnthn Wolfman2000: Note the quotes :-)
18:56 jnthn (around bar)
18:56 Wolfman2000 @foo[0]{'bar'}
18:56 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
18:56 Wolfman2000 well aware
18:57 jnthn :-S
18:57 jnthn ng: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]{'bar'}
18:57 p6eval ng a77213: get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Block'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
18:57 jnthn oh, we didn't do hash composers in ng yet.
18:57 jnthn rakudo: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]{'bar'}
18:58 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d:  ( no output )
18:58 moritz_ ng: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]{'bar'}
18:58 p6eval ng a77213: get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Block'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
18:58 Wolfman2000 ng: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]<bar>
18:58 p6eval ng a77213: get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Block'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
18:58 kthakore jnthn:  ah ok
18:58 Wolfman2000 ...sounds like a good thing to implement soon jnthn
18:59 moritz_ ng: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}.(); say @foo[0]{'bar'}
18:59 p6eval ng a77213: get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'Undef'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
19:05 jnthn Wolfman2000: Yeah...can likely steal it straight from master.
19:05 iblechbot joined #perl6
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19:11 kthakore moritz_:  so ... Perl6 cannot access an element from a array of hashes?
19:18 moritz_ kthakore: well, it can
19:18 moritz_ rakudo has problems with p6eval, and ng with hash literals
19:18 frettled std: my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]{'bar'}
19:19 p6eval std 29236: ok 00:01 108m␤
19:19 moritz_ but in principle it works just fine
19:19 moritz_ $ perl6 -e 'my @foo = {bar => 42, hi => 32}; say @foo[0]{"bar"}'
19:19 moritz_ 42
19:20 masak joined #perl6
19:21 diakopter that's interesting
19:21 diakopter o wait; lagged
19:21 diakopter backlagged
19:22 masak what do we tell this person? http://twitter.com/dpcwollmann/status/6239724751
19:22 frettled ac
19:22 frettled That you got op!
19:22 masak ooh, I'm scared. :)
19:22 masak oh wait.
19:23 frettled GNU readline support would be Really Neat.
19:23 masak is it doable?
19:23 frettled I suppose so, but it's not a straight plugin, because there are at least two ways of doing it.
19:23 mberends anything NCI is hard
19:24 frettled I haven't added readline to other code in several years, and I've only done it once.
19:24 mberends frettled: TAALTWTDI ?
19:24 masak dang. but doesn't the REPL alreadu use something like GNU ReadLine?
19:24 frettled I shot myself in the foot and didn't get it to understand all the cool commands that people - me included - usually expect from «readline support»
19:24 frettled mberends: yep
19:25 mberends ooh!
19:25 moritz_ masak: parrot has a config probe for readline too
19:25 PerlJam doesn't rakudo grok readline if parrot does or something?
19:25 moritz_ I guess that's a good question for pmichaud
19:26 masak sometimes I've been toying with the idea of introducting &prompt and GNU readline to each other.
19:26 PerlJam I have one box where rakudo seems to be readline-aware (but that appears to have happened quite by accident)
19:26 masak maybe `prompt("> ", :@history)` or sump'n.
19:27 moritz_ PerlJam: the REPL, or prompt()?
19:29 PerlJam the REPL
19:29 moritz_ it is here, too
19:29 frettled Hmm, yes, running ./perl6 in the September 13 edition of rakudo _does_ yield a command history
19:30 frettled it understands ESC-b and ESC-f for backward-word and forward-word, etc.
19:41 masak sushi &
19:41 perlygatekeeper left #perl6
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20:12 diakopter TimToady: does a non-greedy quantifier terminate ltm?  pmichaud?
20:12 PerlJam HLL::Compiler handles the REPL and the command line, right?
20:19 diakopter TimToady: duh, I see the answer right there (sry)
20:19 diakopter sweet
20:19 diakopter that makes the right-to-left conversion much easier :)
20:20 pdcawley joined #perl6
20:22 Tene PerlJam: Yes.
20:23 pugs_svn r29237 | colomon++ | [perl6advent] Add topic to Dec 7, minor brainstorming notes.
20:24 diakopter compiling leading LTM patterns is analogous to computing leading FIRST patterns, but a tad higher order.
20:24 masak pointme: masak
20:24 pointme masak submits rakudo bugs ;-)
20:25 masak pointme++ # spreading the meme that the bugs are MINE! :P
20:25 moritz_ pointme: moritz
20:25 pointme Sorry, I don't know anything about that project
20:25 masak we should definitely add something on project moritz.
20:25 moritz_ neither do I
20:33 moritz_ colomon, masak: I think my access to perl6advent.wordpress.com doesn't work... I'd dump my post in the pugs repo instead and let one of you publish it, if that works for you
20:35 masak moritz_: sure, but it's too bad. better to have the post marked up by its author.
20:36 colomon moritz_: do you have a wordpress account?
20:36 moritz_ colomon: yes
20:37 colomon e-mail?
20:37 colomon address, I mean?
20:37 colomon for it?
20:37 moritz_ colomon: the one you sent the invitation for
20:37 moritz_ s/for/to/
20:38 colomon okay, you're in now.
20:39 moritz_ works
20:39 moritz_ colomon++
20:41 moritz_ what format does wordpress want? html?
20:41 colomon html or it has a rich test editor.
20:41 bluescreen joined #perl6
20:42 moritz_ ok. So I'll write in pod, convert it to HTML and feed that into wordpress :-)
20:42 diakopter note to others who may ever follow this (reversing) strategy: alternations keep their left-to-right order, it's just sequence (both, concat, etc.) whose order needs switched (incl all literals more than 1 char in length)
20:42 colomon That appeared to be masak's plan as well?  :)
20:45 colomon I need to sit down and learn pod at some point.  pod and grammars.
20:47 * arnsholt is considering volunteering to write something on grammars
20:47 arnsholt Except I should probably read for my exams instead =)
20:53 PerlJam colomon: er... how do I post to perl6advent?
20:54 colomon PerlJam: did you register with wordpress?
20:54 PerlJam aye
20:55 colomon pobox e-mail?
20:55 PerlJam (I apparently already had an account that I've never used)
20:55 PerlJam yes, duff@pobox.com
20:55 colomon okay, you're in there too.
20:55 PerlJam ah.  okay
20:56 PerlJam colomon++
20:57 ascent_ huh, any ideas for domain perl6.pl? :)
20:58 moritz_ forward it to perl6.org until you have a good idea :-)
20:58 moritz_ hey, if you read "pl" as "people" it would be a great domain for a community site
20:59 Tene I could post something on... exceptions?
20:59 PerlJam Tene: go for it.
20:59 moritz_ Tene: sure, good idea
21:00 colomon I'd take exception to that.
21:00 Tene Hm.  I'd need useful examples of exceptions use, though...
21:00 colomon ;)
21:00 quantumEd joined #perl6
21:00 Tene see, colomon objects, I can't do it.
21:00 Tene I'll think of something else, then.
21:00 PerlJam I think he was just punning.
21:01 PerlJam (for the humor of it)
21:01 colomon exactly.
21:01 colomon apologies, it was irresistible.  I'm surprised no one beat me to it.
21:02 PerlJam Hmm. I like Wordpress' interface for editing posts much better than blogspots.
21:03 colomon so far I am very impressed with Wordpress, except that the invite thing seems not to work quite as I imagined.
21:03 moritz_ colomon: so you have to invite *and* add people to the blog?
21:03 colomon moritz_: yes.
21:03 PerlJam invite == invite people to use wordpress
21:04 moritz_ rakudo: my Int $x; $x *= 30; say $x
21:04 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 30␤
21:04 colomon The interface implied that it would be automatic, but as far as I could tell it never worked that way.
21:04 PerlJam moritz_: that's a feature!  ;)
21:04 moritz_ PerlJam: I know, I just wanted to be sure it worked in rakudo
21:04 PerlJam rakudo: my Int $x;  $x += 1; say $x;
21:04 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: 1␤
21:05 ShaneC joined #perl6
21:05 PerlJam (just checking :)
21:05 colomon It has an "Add user to my blog as a contributor" tick box I ticked, but no one ever got added.
21:05 colomon ng: my Int $x; $x *= 30; say $x
21:05 p6eval ng a77213: 0␤
21:05 colomon d'oh!
21:06 PerlJam colomon: well, a Mu Int is devoid of value.  :)
21:06 colomon ng: say Int ~~ Mu
21:06 p6eval ng a77213: 1␤
21:08 masak ng: Mu[Mu]
21:08 p6eval ng a77213: Method 'postcircumfix:<[ ]>' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' pc 243650 (src/gen/core.pir:25138)␤
21:09 masak jnthn: "invocant of class ''"?
21:09 moritz_ ng: 3[4]
21:09 p6eval ng a77213: Can't postcircumfix:<[ ]> foreign objects yet.␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<[ ]>' pc 243650 (src/gen/core.pir:25138)␤
21:10 masak foreign objects?
21:11 moritz_ alien Ints
21:11 masak ng: trois[quatre]
21:11 p6eval ng a77213: Confused at line 1, near "trois[quat"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
21:12 * moritz_ changed his image on gravator.com and is surprised that github updated it immediately
21:12 masak nice new image.
21:12 colomon ack, too much perl 6 makes programming in C++ painful.
21:13 moritz_ masak: thanks. I put it on my CV today
21:13 colomon I mean, why can't I just say for trimmed_surfaces, breps -> $brep { ... }  ?  Requiring a new loop to iterate over each array is a PITA.
21:13 PerlJam colomon: too much perl6 makes programming in <insert almost any language> painful.
21:15 masak ooh! pmichaud-on-parrotdev says I can speed up my Perl 6 code by turning off GC. :P
21:17 sjohnson yo masak
21:20 masak sjohnson: hi there!
21:21 ShaneC joined #perl6
21:23 sjohnson rakudo:  my $x = "\t";  say split("\t", $x).perl;
21:23 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: ["", ""]␤
21:24 colomon PerlJam: I almost thing that one of my projects for next year ought to be building a p6 interface for my $work C++ libraries, just to make writing tests easier...
21:24 sjohnson TimToady: is the above ^^ possible in p5, without getting complicated?  or was its split not meant for this, where as p6 has comb and split
21:25 PerlJam sjohnson: my $x = "\t"; print split(/\t/, $x, -1), "\n";
21:25 moritz_ I've written my advent post for Dec 04, and scheduled it for publishing
21:25 PerlJam sjohnson: (not sure what part you think might not be possible)
21:25 PerlJam moritz++
21:26 moritz_ those of you who have admin access can probably view it already, and review/correct/bikeshed
21:26 colomon dude!  scheduling ahead of time!  awesome!
21:26 PerlJam colomon: yes, blogspot has that too, but it's way klunky
21:26 sjohnson PerlJam++ # awesomeness
21:28 colomon I see PerlJam has gotten to work, too.  :)
21:28 PerlJam colomon: not really :)
21:28 PerlJam But I plan to do what moritz_ has just done as well.
21:29 masak moritz_: ooh, scheduled posts! I gotta take a look at that.
21:30 colomon moritz_++ # nice post
21:30 moritz_ thanks colomon
21:30 colomon The newline formating is a little off, if you don't mind I will try to clean it up.
21:31 moritz_ feel free
21:31 masak moritz_: can I change the dash in the title to a colon, to conform with today's post?
21:31 moritz_ masak: sure
21:32 masak I'll wait a bit, to avoid edit conflicts. :)
21:33 brrant joined #perl6
21:33 colomon "Warning: Moritz is currently editing this post"
21:35 PerlJam There have been 59 views for Day 1.  Not bad for no advertising :)
21:35 * moritz_ plans to do some advertising tonight
21:35 colomon how's that?
21:35 PerlJam moritz++
21:36 colomon masak -- I take it this means you can see scheduled posts as well?
21:36 colomon (I took care of the dash, btw.)
21:36 masak aye.
21:36 masak thanks.
21:37 moritz_ colomon: can you resubmit your changes? I fear I have hit reload accidentally
21:37 moritz_ and undone your changes :(
21:37 moritz_ moritz--
21:37 colomon not sure if I can resubmit, but I'll see.
21:37 * PerlJam wonders if there's a widget for displaying code
21:37 PerlJam (maybe syntax highlighted)
21:37 moritz_ I've now logged out so that it dosn't happen again
21:38 colomon yay, still had all the changes sitting in my browser.
21:38 colomon PerlJam: I believe someone told me there was over the summer, but I don't remember the details.
21:39 colomon (because I wasn't using wordpress at the time, so it was irrelevant to me.)
21:39 colomon oh, moritz_'s test comments don't match the actual functions called.  :)
21:40 moritz_ dammit
21:42 PerlJam Hmm.  I wonder how/if we should use the categories?
21:42 moritz_ I don't see much benefit. tags > categories
21:43 colomon moritz_: shall I fix them?
21:43 moritz_ colomon: please do, if you feel like
21:44 PerlJam masak: you'll let us know when your entry is ready for critique?  :)
21:44 colomon done.
21:44 masak PerlJam: oh, it has been all day. :)
21:44 moritz_ colomon++
21:45 colomon So far, I'm really liking the blog setup for the calendar.  PerlJam++ for suggesting creating a blog for it.
21:45 PerlJam colomon++ for actually doing it! :)
21:45 masak colomon++ PerlJam++
21:45 moritz_ lolmoritzhazblogged: http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/per​l-6/perl6-advent-calendar.html
21:46 masak would somebody mind changing the theme of the perl 6 advent blog -- or show me how to do it? the current one feels a bit drab.
21:46 moritz_ masak: put a camelia in there somewhere!
21:46 PerlJam camelia +1
21:47 PerlJam If it could be styled similar to perl6.org, that would be awesome
21:48 masak the blog has had 295 views today. I think it'll 10x or more before December is over.
21:49 colomon I think probably only PerlJam and I have permission to change the theme.
21:50 moritz_ colomon: then you need to hand out theme bits liberally :-)
21:50 PerlJam indeed.
21:50 PerlJam The chance me changing the theme is close to zero right now.  :)
21:50 masak either is fine by me. :) as long as the theme changes.
21:51 * moritz_ just redditted it
21:51 PerlJam masak and moritz are now admins too
21:52 colomon PerlJam++
21:52 masak yay, responsibility! \o/
21:52 PerlJam and jnthn
21:52 jnthn huh...what...
21:52 jnthn I have to be responsible?!
21:53 PerlJam you have the option to be responsible.
21:53 colomon I would definitely encourage someone other than me to work on the theme.  My web pages are pretty uniformly boring.  :)
21:54 masak heh. I just got called a 'true [Perl 6] believer' on Twitter. again. :)
21:54 PerlJam Where in pugs is perl6.org?
21:55 colomon (well, hopefully my content isn't that boring, but the style is very "1997 clean" .)
21:55 sjohnson @karma
21:55 lambdabot You have a karma of 4
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21:58 moritz_ PerlJam: docs/feather/perl6.org/
21:58 PerlJam yeah, just found it  :)
21:58 PerlJam thanks
21:59 moritz_ PerlJam: feel free to put it as the second item under Community on the front page
21:59 moritz_ PerlJam: the IRC channel takes too much space there
22:04 pugs_svn r29238 | duff++ | [perl6.org] Add link to Perl 6 Advent calendar
22:05 PerlJam so ... how does the website get updated?
22:06 moritz_ by cron job
22:10 colomon perl6advent got its first comment!  \o/
22:11 * PerlJam doesn't believe it.
22:13 jnthn \o/
22:13 jnthn Nice!
22:13 colomon ng: say (7/4+2/3).perl
22:13 p6eval ng a77213: 29/12␤
22:17 PerlJam ng: say (4/4+2/3).perl
22:17 p6eval ng a77213: 5/3␤
22:18 PerlJam rakudo++
22:19 avar Who turned Perl into Lisp?:)
22:19 sundar Hi.. Is it possible to enable readline support in the interactive perl6 interpreter?
22:20 masak sundar: it's enabled here.
22:23 moritz_ more specifically the readline header files need to be installed when parrot is configured
22:23 masak moritz_++ # a reply which actually helps
22:25 moritz_ libreadline5-dev on debian
22:27 sundar I'm on a Solaris machine.. I'll try to find if it has readline headers... Though, I'll have to then configure and build both parrot and rakudo, isn't it?
22:28 moritz_ right
22:29 moritz_ rakudo: say %*VM<config><readline>
22:30 p6eval rakudo 7ce13d: Use of uninitialized value␤␤
22:30 moritz_ on my computer that gives "define"
22:31 moritz_ and the parrots Configure.pl says, among other things
22:31 moritz_ auto::readline -      Does your platform support readline.................yes.
22:37 PerlJam okay, so I said the chances of me changing the theme for perl6advent were zero ... turns out it was closer to one (such is being binary).   I've just added a couple of Camelia to the header, but perhaps it inspires someone to do better
22:37 PerlJam (the past 30 minutes was the most I've ever played with GIMP too :)
22:37 frettled :)
22:38 frettled PerlJam++ - the website did improve
22:43 arnsholt Is the plural of Camelia Cameliae? =)
22:44 jnthn Depends on the language I guess. :-)
22:44 frettled Papilio Camelia?
22:45 arnsholt True, true
22:45 * jnthn chooses Camelie ;-)
22:45 arnsholt Lepidotera celopardalis? =D
22:45 arnsholt Er, Lepidoptera
22:45 arnsholt And camelopardalis
22:46 arnsholt Apparenly I fail at writing
22:46 frettled ng: say arnsholt.fail;
22:46 p6eval ng a77213: Could not find non-existent sub &arnsholt␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
22:46 frettled ;)
22:47 arnsholt ^^
22:53 pmurias joined #perl6
22:58 pmurias kthakore: rehi
23:02 diakopter pmurias: g'morning? :)
23:04 pmurias diakopter: it four minutes past midnight here
23:04 diakopter oh
23:06 moritz_ 22:48 <@masak> the blog has had 295 views today. I think it'll 10x or more  before December is over.
23:06 moritz_ 50x at least, if we continue to blog
23:06 masak moritz_: :)
23:07 masak do I hear 250x? 250x, anyone?
23:07 masak moritz_: I meant per day.
23:08 moritz_ oh.
23:08 moritz_ I thought you meant in sum
23:08 IllvilJa joined #perl6
23:12 masak IllvilJa! \o/
23:12 frew__ joined #perl6
23:13 IllvilJa Howdy!
23:14 IllvilJa Just did my first github commit and push!
23:14 IllvilJa Tiny patch, replaced 3 characters with 2 other characters in a Build.PL script.  But still, baby steps!
23:15 masak IllvilJa++
23:15 frew__ joined #perl6
23:16 IllvilJa Anyone knows if Russ Allbery is here at times?  I submitted, by mail, a patch for his Term::ANSIColor module.
23:16 masak is it a Perl 5 module?
23:16 IllvilJa The purpose were to let the colors 8 through 15 (you know, those BRIGHT and GOOD LOOKING colors) be available in addition to the duller color 0 through 7...
23:16 IllvilJa Yes it is perl 5.
23:17 masak I don't recognize the name "Russ Allbery".
23:17 allbery_b this channel is for perl 6 development.  perl 5 modules are somewhat irrelevant.
23:17 masak IllvilJa: I'm very familiar with those bright and good looking colors, yes. :)
23:17 IllvilJa I asked about it on #perl, and I got a good response to ask the quesion on some mailing list for module maintainers on CPAN (but has not gotten around to do it yet)
23:17 allbery_b (and no, I am not Russ)
23:18 masak IllvilJa: my teens were spent in BASIC. both text mode and EGA used those 16 colors. :)
23:18 IllvilJa (I know, I accidentally IMed you when I thought you were Russ... then realized I perhaps should use the 'info' command of Pidgin and thus understood I were mistaken...)
23:19 IllvilJa The thing is that I (probably incorrectly) think Term::ANSIColor is a good candidate to port to perl6.
23:19 masak just to be clear: I am not Russ, either.
23:20 masak IllvilJa: I think it would, too.
23:21 IllvilJa Maybe I should decide to be Russ, accept my own patch and when I try to port Term::ANSIColor to Perl 6 include support for the bold colors numbered 8 through 15.
23:22 masak then we can brag that the Perl 6 module is better than the Perl 5 module. :P
23:22 IllvilJa Um.. rather have it as an example that the Perl5 module's patch should be implemented and get Term::ANSIColor 2.03 created :-D.
23:23 masak or that. :)
23:28 * masak gets through the whole &LazyMap::iter subroutine, and actually understands it!
23:28 IllvilJa The nice thing with Term::ANSIColor is that it is a conceptually simple module, so I can follow the "you are not good enough" approach and create some very "baby perl 6"-ish module which works but otherwise is "full of fail".
23:29 IllvilJa Then I can improve it over time and learn some perl 6 in the process (or hope someone who is good enough tries to improve it ;-) )
23:29 frew joined #perl6
23:30 moritz_ sounds like a very good plan
23:30 masak I don't speak for everybody, but the "you are not good enough" approach is the only one I've ever followed. it might be too early for anyone to do anything else with Perl 6. :)
23:31 colomon masak: LazyMap::iter ?
23:31 IllvilJa Worse is better.  Fail is success.  Absolutely useless is optimal.  Hm... we start to sound a bit like Orwell's 1984 now...
23:31 masak colomon: ok, look, so I'm trying to steal STD's backtracking for GGE.
23:31 moritz_ IllvilJa: the amazing thing is that it actually works. I started perl6-projects.org, somebody contributed a nice design. I blogged about an XML grammar, somebody else made a module of it, and put it on github, improved it etc.
23:31 masak colomon: in so doing, I've been given a few pointers from TimToady where to look.
23:32 colomon masak: ah.  carry on, then.  ;)
23:32 moritz_ masak: why? doesn't PGE do backtracking in a module that fits better for GGE?
23:32 masak colomon: I think I just understood the core part of it. still don't really see where the backtracking takes place, though.
23:32 * colomon still longs for iterator interface in ng...
23:32 masak moritz_: PGE cheats. :(
23:32 moritz_ masak: how so?
23:32 masak moritz_: it uses Parrot's coroutines and continuations.
23:33 masak moritz_: of course, if you do it *that* way, then it's easy!
23:33 moritz_ masak: well, then get real continuations into Perl 6, and do it that way :-)
23:34 masak moritz_: believe me, the thought has occurred to me. :)
23:34 masak cf my last talk.
23:35 frettled IllvilJa: What about 256-color while you're at it?  :D  (http://frexx.de/xterm-256-notes/)
23:36 pmurias masak: gather/take can be used for getting coroutines
23:37 moritz_ pmurias: the laziness of gather/take is not completely guarntueed by the spec
23:37 moritz_ pmurias: does smop have continuations?
23:37 IllvilJa frettled: Well, the 16 color palette seem to be some sort of "standard" that many terminal emulators support.
23:37 masak pmurias: yes. that doesn't mean I (1) like that as my only option, or (2) see how to cross routine boundaries with gather/take.
23:37 pmurias moritz_: the could be easily implemented
23:38 IllvilJa With color 3 being dull yellow and color 11 is corresponding bright (and vivid and enlightening) yellow...
23:38 frettled IllvilJa: Yes, it's based on 16-color ANSI.  The 256 color palette is based on 256-color ANSI, IIRC.
23:38 IllvilJa Yes.  I think the gnome-terminal (and it's underlying widget, vte) only supports the 16 color palette.
23:38 pmurias moritz_: smop has one-shot continuations - one would have to add a .clone method to them
23:39 frettled IllvilJa: 256-color support is part of the xorg distribution, see e.g. http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/X11apps/X1​1apps-14.1/xterm/xterm-235/vttests/256colors2.pl for how to print those.
23:39 moritz_ so, let's summarize
23:39 moritz_ actively developed Perl 6 compilers:
23:39 frettled IllvilJa: but your platform may not necessarily have it compiled into xterm, of course.
23:39 moritz_ rakudo, mildew, something JS based
23:39 moritz_ rakudo can use parrot's continuations
23:39 IllvilJa Ok, 256 colors might show up in some future version of the Perl 6 Term::ANSIColor module :-).
23:39 pmurias diakopter: what is your current continuation?
23:39 pmurias diakopter: err compiler
23:39 frettled IllvilJa: \o/
23:40 moritz_ mildew would not be hardpressed to get support via smop
23:40 frettled IllvilJa: goodie, because it's been in rxvt for ages :D
23:40 IllvilJa frettled: I'm a bit old fashioned, I'm damaged from learning programming on (Microsoft!!) basic on a Commodore 64 back in the 1980.s :-).
23:40 moritz_ sprixel used something CPSy anyway, afaict
23:40 colomon IllvilJa: same here.
23:40 pmurias moritz_: it would be also be easy to add them to mildew-js
23:40 moritz_ so, what stops us from real, guarantueed continuations in Perl 6?
23:40 IllvilJa So 256, 4096 and 32 bit colors are really nice, but I'm a sucker for few-color (lack of) aesthetics.
23:41 frettled IllvilJa: I may have learned programming at least thrice, the second time in Microsoft BASIC on an IBM PC.  :)
23:41 masak moritz_: TimToady thinks continuations are like naked singularities. they should not be exposed directly in a programming language.
23:41 IllvilJa I were shocked a couple of years ago to learn that the Basic I "grew up on" on the Commodore 64 actually were written by Microsoft.
23:41 masak moritz_: but 'the event horizon is a lazy list'.
23:42 moritz_ masak: maybe it's one of those things that should be made possible, not necessarily easy?
23:42 colomon IllvilJa: almost every small computer's basic was microsoft's back then, as far as I know.
23:42 masak IllvilJa: yes. that's stuff that Bill Gates actually wrote, rather than copied. :)
23:42 moritz_ anyway, bed time here
23:43 moritz_ 'night
23:43 frettled IllvilJa: Anyway, people who _really_ need this can of course reuse the code in the 256colors2.pl script, but it's nice to have things in modules for some people :)
23:43 masak night, moritz_++.
23:43 IllvilJa Seriously, the good thing with having just support for 16 colors is that you can give each color a symbolic name ('yellow', 'bright_red' etc). Then of course 256-colors support can use some sort of parametric names like color_33 or such...
23:43 colomon goodnight, moritz_
23:43 frettled IllvilJa: I think it's cool that you're patching, though.
23:43 frettled IllvilJa: uh, there are far more than 256 color names out there :D
23:43 frettled IllvilJa: See rgb.txt (IIRC) in any X11 distribution.
23:44 pmurias moritz_: continuations limit your choice of implementation methods
23:44 frettled IllvilJa: http://sedition.com/perl/rgb.html
23:44 IllvilJa frettled: yes, but I would go even more nuts if I try to sort them out and map them to 256 specific colors.  Then I think parametrized color names (specifying r, g and b of each color as part of the name) is more manageable.
23:44 frettled IllvilJa: those are well-defined in 8 bpc (16.7 million colors)
23:45 frettled IllvilJa: the color codes are there, the mapping is already done by others.
23:45 IllvilJa frettled: ok.  seem like some area to learn some more about in the future.
23:46 * jnthn prints out two papers to read on his journey tomorrow
23:46 pmurias jnthn: which ones?
23:47 IllvilJa Well, it is fun to know that Bill Gates did SOME things that has benefit me directly.  (Another thing I think Microsoft created were the DHCP standard which also is a very nice thing to have)
23:47 frettled IllvilJa: it's going to be out there on the intertubes for as long as we live, I suppose, so it should be easy to check out.  And of course, it's in your Linux distribution if it uses Xorg, and if you use Emacs, you can easily look them up.
23:47 IllvilJa frettled: cool then.
23:48 IllvilJa frettled: but as stated before, ignorance is strength, failure is success and worse is better, so I go initially for a worse variant which only knows about 16 colors...
23:48 frettled IllvilJa: for instance, my favourite settings for an xterm or Emacs is cornsilk as the foreground color, black background.  The reason is that white on black is too contrasty.
23:48 frettled IllvilJa: hee-hee :D
23:49 frettled IllvilJa: yep, better to actually implement a small improvement than none at all.
23:49 frettled Anyway, enough bike-shedding on my part for tonight, goodnight!
23:49 IllvilJa frettled: I have a sick habit of creating one single colorscheme of foreground/background/cursor for every host I'm connecting to (and a matching terminal icon symbol).  Makes it easy to instinctively track all different terminal windows I have lying around.
23:50 IllvilJa So yes, being able to use colors is not just a nice thing, it's critical to quickly manage all SSH connections.
23:50 IllvilJa At least for me.
23:52 jnthn pmurias: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/vie​wdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.32.1784 and http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/​old/paepcke93userlevel.html
23:58 slavik joined #perl6

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