Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 astrojp left #perl6
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00:26 cognominal can someone explain me (in private not to pollute the canal) the "not in kansas anymore" meme?
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01:05 diakopter rakudo: grammar Class is also { rule TOP { x } }; Class.parse("x")  #  masak
01:05 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Null PMC access in get_attr_str()␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
01:05 diakopter (saw yours above)
01:05 masak diakopter: hm, yes.
01:06 masak but a difference is that 'Class' is defined in Perl 6. 'Integer' isn't/
01:06 masak s[/][.]
01:07 diakopter oh
01:08 masak http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3705
01:09 masak diakopter: uh, I take that back. I'm not sure there is a Class class any more. I can't find it in the spec.
01:11 masak this one is kinda interesting, though:
01:11 masak rakudo: grammar Perl6Array {}
01:11 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
01:11 masak locally, 'Class Perl6Array already registered!'
01:12 cognominal masak : small programs are beautiful but it needs large languages :)
01:12 masak cognominal: maybe so. :)
01:13 arnsholt masak: It's an interesting point, but I don't agree with him in everything
01:13 masak I'm sort of hoping Perl 6 will turn out to be a small language hidden inside a large language.
01:13 arnsholt For one, shell and friends is ugly and clunky as sin
01:14 masak indeed.
01:14 masak how come shell languages are so ugly?
01:14 arnsholt And Lisp, while a very cool language, offends my aesthetic sensibilities (TimToady said something about toenail clippings and oatmeal, if memory serves)
01:15 masak arnsholt: I personally am not disturbet by the parentheses in Lisp.
01:15 arnsholt The parens are fine as such. It's just that everything looks the same (which is the point too), which makes it a lot harder to grasp the structure of the program, IMO
01:16 masak they are a consession for the compiler to eliminate the concept of precedence entirely, and they basically 'melt away' with good indentation.
01:16 masak yes, everything looking the same is a point I can understand and sympathise with.
01:17 arnsholt OTOH, the syntax (or lack thereof) does give you the possibility of Lisp macros, and they are mega-awesome
01:17 masak :)
01:18 arnsholt Returning to the post, I think he's right that bigger languages are in the future
01:19 * masak wonders what size of languages artificial intelligences will prefer
01:19 arnsholt I can sympathise with his preference for minimalist languages like C, but when he mentions the search for a small as possible set of types and operations, I can't help but think of Russell and the search for the axiomatisation of mathematics
01:19 arnsholt A wonderful idea, but blown to bits by Gödel
01:20 masak I don't know about that.
01:20 arnsholt AIs will probably use something weird
01:20 arnsholt Of course, programming languages being Turing complete won't run into the same problem
01:20 cognominal In his paper, Pike says "the art is gone". Is not Perl 6 about art?  :)
01:20 arnsholt But it's definitely a positivist trait
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01:46 colomon_ rakudo: my @a = 1..4; @a <<*=>> 3; say @a.perl
01:46 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 2, 3, 4]␤
01:47 Wolfman2000 Wonder where PerlJam is...oh well
01:47 rgrau :w
01:47 rgrau ooops, sorry
01:47 colomon_ rakudo: my @a 1..4; @a <<*>>= 3; say @a.perl
01:47 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "1..4; @a <"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
01:58 masak rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<{ }>($x) { 42 }; method foo() { my %h; say %h<foo> } }; A.new.foo
01:59 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
01:59 masak locally, this gives '42'.
01:59 * masak submits rakudobug
02:03 Wolfman2000 masak: I don't get the same thing
02:03 Wolfman2000 Null PMC access in find_method('new')  <-- that's what I get
02:03 masak that's odd.
02:03 masak maybe we should both update our Rakudos. :)
02:04 Wolfman2000 masak: looks like I already updated mine
02:04 masak excellent. I'll update mine.
02:04 Wolfman2000 of course, I may not be compiling the same options as you or something... (I just use the normal instructions)
02:05 masak oh, me too.
02:06 masak and in my experience, that has never been the cause of differences before.
02:12 masak blog post idea: Perl 6 is a result of looking at the corners on which people hurt themselves on Perl 5, and reshaping the language so that it doesn't hurt that way. the PerlMonks meditation at http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=525392 is a beautiful example, together with the last comment. "It appears you've just [made Perl 6 hurt less by telling us about how you got hurt on Perl 5]".
02:13 masak I imagine moritz_ might do it well. others are welcome to try it, too. if no-one bites, I might. :)
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02:14 masak I'm also pretty sure that there are tens of other, similar, examples.
02:20 drbean http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php​?term=we're%20not%20in%20Kansas%20anymore
02:20 masak Wolfman2000: still getting 42 here, after rebuilding newest Rakudo (master) on newest Parrot.
02:20 Wolfman2000 masak: I probably copied it wrong then. hold on
02:21 Wolfman2000 masak: ...yeah, copied it wrong last time. I got 42
02:21 masak Lesson 1 of copy-and-paste: Make sure you copy the whole th
02:21 Wolfman2000 masak-- for bad joke
02:22 masak :P
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02:28 colomon I've got a first draft of my Advent day 7 post into wordpress.  I'd appreciate it if people gave feedback.
02:28 Wolfman2000 colomon: hang on
02:28 Wolfman2000 ...who is supposed to do Day 6 again?
02:29 colomon mathw
02:29 colomon mine could go up instead in a pinch.
02:30 masak that is an attractive option. it's nice to have a post waiting for people when they wake up.
02:30 Wolfman2000 still previewing: hang on
02:30 masak I'll give it a look as well.
02:32 Wolfman2000 ...what is this [sourcecode] thing?
02:33 colomon masak: agreed.  unfortunately mathw went to bed about fifteen minutes before I could ask him how his post was coming.
02:33 masak yeah, I saw that.
02:34 colomon Wolfman2000: look at the preview.  [sourcecode] blocks are formatted as source code.  It's quite nice.
02:34 TimToady the :action vs :actions was question PM-7
02:34 masak colomon: I say go for it. change the title to 'Day 6' and change days with mathw.
02:34 masak TimToady: ah, that's why I remembered it... vaguely.
02:34 Wolfman2000 I'm presently in the edit mode: I can do so.
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02:35 masak I see I made a change that goes against Pm-7. I'll change it back.
02:36 colomon If you guys agree and can give it a quick once over to check my sanity, sure, we can run it for day 6.  It actually is a sensible follow-up to day 5 anyway...
02:36 Wolfman2000 colomon: you have about 2 hours before your post goes up.
02:36 Wolfman2000 I'm out of edit mode so you can make your last minute adjustments
02:39 pugs_svn r29266 | masak++ | [S05] reverted s/actions/action/ correction
02:39 pugs_svn r29266 |
02:39 pugs_svn r29266 | Pm-7 asserts that it should be the plural. Which means Rakudo is lagging
02:39 pugs_svn r29266 | behind, not the spec.
02:39 colomon afk for moment, wife needs computer and hers just blew up.
02:39 masak colomon: I skimmed through it, and didn't find anything to critique.
02:40 * masak submits rakudo TODO ticket for :actions
02:40 PerlJam colomon: looks good to me too  (though the paragraph where you talk about parallelizing hyperops is written in terms of Rakudo, and I would have probably writte it in terms of Perl 6)
02:41 masak the ticket is probably of little value, since this change will likely come naturally with the adoption of ng, but you never know.
02:44 masak rakudo: say :2("0b1")
02:44 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 23␤
02:44 masak o.O
02:45 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say 0b1
02:45 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 1␤
02:45 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say 0b2
02:45 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Syntax error at line 2, near "say 0b2"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
02:45 Wolfman2000 okay, it has some intelligence...
02:45 masak why 23!?
02:45 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say :2(ob1)
02:45 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Could not find non-existent sub ob1␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
02:45 Wolfman2000 ...derp
02:45 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say :2(0b1)
02:45 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 1␤
02:45 masak oh, I think I get it.
02:46 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say :2(0b11)
02:46 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 3␤
02:46 masak 23 = 22 + 1 = 11 * 2 + 1 = 0xB * 2 + 1
02:46 PerlJam rakudo: say :2("0b2")
02:47 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 24␤
02:47 PerlJam rakudo: say :2("0a1")
02:47 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 21␤
02:47 PerlJam rakudo: say :2("0aa")
02:47 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 30␤
02:48 PerlJam rakudo: say :2("aa")
02:48 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 30␤
02:50 masak rakudo: "1234" ~~ /(23)/; say :4($0)
02:50 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 11␤
02:50 masak I guess it's fine to rely on :4() auto-stringifying here?
02:53 pugs_svn r29267 | masak++ | [S05] further improvements to :actions example
02:53 pugs_svn r29267 |
02:53 pugs_svn r29267 | Suggested by uasi++ on Twitter
03:02 colomon Okay, I'm cool with the post going up as scheduled at 5am UTC.  (Is that an hour from now?)  I tried to incorporate PerlJam++'s suggestions.
03:02 colomon turning my MacBook back over to my wife so she can chat with Dell tech support.
03:05 Wolfman2000 ...that makes little sense, but whatever
03:05 cognominal reading S06, I found lines 92 and 103 in contradiction.  line 92 says default scope is 'my' and line 103 says it's 'our'. Do I miss something?
03:05 colomon Wolfman2000: notice the previous comment about my wife's computer blowing up.
03:05 Wolfman2000 colomon: ah, just found it
03:06 colomon I get it back until she's off hold with Dell's on-line tech support.
03:06 colomon That Dell has been a hideous lemon, but their tech support has been awe-inspiring.
03:06 colomon I think the hard drive may be the only original component left....
03:07 masak cognominal: you probably found a fossil.
03:07 cognominal I am not sure which line is right...
03:09 cognominal I guess 'my' is right by reading further
03:11 cognominal Also in S12:221  s/;/,/g
03:12 colomon phenny: tell mathw I had my Day 7 post ready to go this evening, so swapped with you.  You're up for day 7 now.  Hope that is okay.
03:12 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when mathw is around.
03:13 Wolfman2000 ...something's telling me I should get my day 8 post ready
03:13 Wolfman2000 I may end up with day 7 at this rate
03:14 masak cognominal: do you have a pugs commitbit?
03:15 masak Wolfman2000: it could never hurt to start planning, at least :)
03:16 cognominal I should have even if I have not used it for months. Better use it tomorrow because bed time.
03:18 colomon I meant all along to try to get a few posts done and ready to go in case of unexpected need.  But I have been pretty slow, and keep on getting distracted trying to make ng work....
03:20 masak colomon++ # ng
03:37 diakopter std: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<​<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<​<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>​>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>​>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
03:37 p6eval std 29267: ok 00:01 105m␤
03:38 pugs_svn r29268 | masak++ | [S05] further corrections by uasi++
03:38 diakopter ng: say <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<​<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<​<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<34>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>​>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>​>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * 2
03:38 p6eval ng 17a1ec: 68␤
03:40 masak that's enough <>'s to last you a year, at least.
03:45 colomon rakudo: say 4++
03:45 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Unable to set lvalue on PAST::Val node␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
03:46 colomon hmmm... does that mean the (1, 2, 3, 4)>>++ example in the day 6 post is wrong?
03:46 * colomon is off to bed with that thought...
03:47 masak rakudo: say (1, 2, 3, 4)>>++
03:47 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near ">>++"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
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04:39 PerlJam rakudo: for (1;2;3) { }
04:39 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
04:39 PerlJam std: for (1;2;3) {}
04:39 p6eval std 29268: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Obsolete use of C-style "for (;;)" loop; instead, in Perl 6 please use "loop (;;)" at /tmp/eAuAnNDQ7D line 1:␤------> [32mfor (1;2;3)[33m⏏[31m {}[0m␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
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04:56 PerlJam Hrm...
04:57 PerlJam I just realized something.   If we're casting Perl 6 as another language in the Perl family of languages, then saying "obsolete use of ..." is probably not quite the right thing to say
04:58 masak well, it's obsolete from the timeline of Perl 6.
04:59 PerlJam Ask mst what he thinks about it :)
04:59 masak all that's happened is that we have two timelines nowadays; two versions of Perl history, as it were.
04:59 masak I will ask him.
05:00 masak 'obsolete' just means 'we used to do that, and now we try to avoid it for whatever reason'.
05:01 masak if you accept that the Perl 6 timeline runs back into the Perl 5 one before the fork, it's a valid use of the word.
05:01 masak ...I think. :)
05:02 * PerlJam wonders what the Perl 5 messages should look like when someone feeds it Perl 6 code
05:03 PerlJam "It looks like you gave me some Perl 6 code; I'm Perl 5 buddy!"
05:03 masak that's why we start our scripts with 'use v6;'
05:04 PerlJam Well, that too breaks the illusion of a family of languages developing in parallel.
05:04 masak yeah.
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05:06 masak nobody promised consistency. :)
05:09 PerlJam I guess it doesn't matter much as long as we have sufficient convergence
05:09 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 6: Going Into Hyperspace': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/200​9/12/06/day-6-going-into-hyperspace/
05:10 masak PerlJam: convergence on what? features? community? conferences? :)
05:10 PerlJam all that stuff
05:10 * PerlJam makes a hand wavey gesture
05:12 PerlJam btw, did someone talk to mathw about his post?
05:12 masak I don't think he's woken up yet.
05:12 masak he has a phennymessage waiting for him.
05:12 PerlJam good enough.
05:13 pugs_svn r29269 | duff++ | [perl6advent] adjust schedule to put colomon at Day 6
05:15 mdxi speaking of the advent calendar, is there a way to disable the annoying screenshot popups on link text? or am i the only one who despises those?
05:15 Wolfman2000 PerlJam: two of my websites have been moved over to NFS. Unfortunately, it looks like using frameworks such as Catalyst is a no go at this time.
05:15 PerlJam mdxi: um ... what are you talking about?
05:16 mdxi hover over a link in the article body
05:16 mdxi this is the first entry to have them
05:16 vamped they were there b4 today
05:16 PerlJam Ah ...  I wasn't seeing it hovering over the first link.
05:17 PerlJam But there's a link in the lower right corner of the popup that says "turn site preview off"
05:17 mdxi vamped: you're right. i think i read the others in w3m (oops)
05:17 masak mdxi: you're not the only one who despises those screenshots, no.
05:18 * PerlJam isn't a fan of them either
05:18 masak mdxi: they can be turned off per-server on the client side easily.
05:18 mdxi yeah, i jsut found it thanks to PerlJam
05:18 masak mdxi: don't know how one'd turn them off in Wordpress.
05:18 mdxi nevermind :)
05:18 masak they *are* annoying, though. :)
05:19 mdxi i had been just scribbling my mouse around to make them go away. didn't actually inspect them.
05:19 mdxi i am bad programmer
05:19 masak no, they are bad widgets.
05:20 mdxi i violated Good Bug Report Standards, which i have frequently yelled at people about. karma is inescapable :)
05:20 * PerlJam found the option to disable them.
05:21 vamped oh please tell!
05:21 masak whatever Good Bug Report Standards are, I'm not sure they hold for applications you didn't ask for. :)
05:21 PerlJam I just turned them off.  Someone please test (since I already turned them off locally)
05:21 vamped i'm on board.
05:22 vamped i've disabled them already too
05:22 masak just clear your cookies, then.
05:23 masak what made us peak on 2009-12-02 with 1080 views? was it a wave of people discovering the calendar for the first time and then not coming back?
05:23 masak or did people just really like learning about C<.fmt>? :P
05:24 PerlJam I think we just got a lot of twitter coverage then.
05:24 PerlJam (more than now anyway)
05:25 masak that sounds about right.
05:25 PerlJam plus we're in a weekend and there aren't all those people who would be goofing off at work by reading the advent calendar  :)
05:26 masak :)
05:26 PerlJam We'll have to see how it goes next week.
05:27 masak hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 Advent Calendar Day 6: Going Into Hyperspace http://bit.ly/82OMFh
05:27 * hugme hugs masak; tweet delivered
05:27 * masak hugs hugme back; thanks!
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05:30 masak time to head home. not a very productive night, but quite pleasant anyway. see y'all around!
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05:57 diakopter http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pv​r/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng108.jpg
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06:24 diakopter "... talk about meta"
06:24 diakopter cute, diakopter; really cute.
06:24 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb5321970>': Failure()<0xb5319ec8>
06:24 Wolfman2000 ...here we go again
06:25 diakopter the grass is always greener, but only because of redshift.
06:25 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb53b5f8c>': Failure()<0xb53b5500>
06:25 diakopter um
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06:34 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 6: Going Into Hyperspace': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/200​9/12/06/day-6-going-into-hyperspace/
06:36 colomon joined #perl6
06:36 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb53464f8>': Failure()<0xb53400a8>
06:37 Wolfman2000 is zaslon on ritalin or something?
06:37 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Failure()<0xb5383134>': Failure()<0xb5382644>
06:37 was kicked by diakopter: diakopter
06:38 diakopter I suspect it's reporting that b/c the blog rss is not responding
06:55 pmichaud perl6advent.wordpress.com isn't responding at all for me.
06:55 pmichaud oh, there it is... taking a long time though.
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07:10 carlin Oops, that wasn't good
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07:22 carlin zaslon: add fakitymcfakefake http://blahblahfake.com/notarealrssfeed/
07:23 zaslon joined #perl6
07:23 carlin ah well, hopefully I 'fixed' it, we'll know if it happens again :-)
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08:39 * mberends returns after a Debian hibernate, during which (forgetfully) the laptop re-booted into an Ubuntu partition, updated its Linux kernel, and then returned successfully to the hibernated Debian desktop. That's impressive state management :)
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09:06 pugs_svn r29270 | colomon++ | [perl6advent] Choose my second topic.
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09:08 tann rakudo: my @a = 1..5; my @b = 6..10; my @c = @a ››+‹‹ @b; say @c.perl;
09:08 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "\u203a\u203a+\u2039\u2039 @b; "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
09:18 ng_feed rakudo-ng: colomon++
09:18 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Reactivate Int.Complex and Int.unpolar.
09:18 ng_feed rakudo-ng: colomon++
09:18 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Reactivate Num.unpolar and Any.cis.
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09:21 tann rakudo: my @a = 1..5; my @b = 6..10; my @c = @a »+« @b; say @c.perl;
09:21 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [7, 9, 11, 13, 15]␤
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: 2904c6b | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/Int.pm:
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: Reactivate Int.Complex and Int.unpolar.
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: Tidy file a touch as well.
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​904c6b75d332aa45434797fbbfce9514b01f4f7
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: 269b081 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/ (2 files):
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: Reactivate Num.unpolar and Any.cis.
09:22 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​69b0811b8906ff7f3d8d2d11bb4ee7a25ef0d46
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09:56 pugs_svn r29271 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Split complex.t into complex.t and unpolar.t.  Tweak and fudge until unpolar.t passes in ng.
09:58 ng_feed rakudo-ng: colomon++
09:58 ng_feed rakudo-ng: CHEAT: Quickly add simple N1 ... N2 operator which generates a list.
09:58 ng_feed rakudo-ng: colomon++
09:58 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Add unpolar.t to spectests.
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: 1ffe542 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/ (2 files):
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: CHEAT: Quickly add simple N1 ... N2 operator which generates a list.
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: This is not the right way to do this, but it should be an okay stand-in for a week or two, and ought to allow us to re-enable a slew of tests.
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1​ffe542fd46a6acf8c577cef665a2e32837756f1
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: 3968cf1 | (Solomon Foster)++ | t/spectest.data:
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: Add unpolar.t to spectests.
10:02 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3​968cf1c229d086e09fd8ce69accd89510e10e84
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12:02 Su-Shee good morning.
12:03 JimmyZ good morning, Su-Shee
12:04 mberends good St. Nicholas, Su-Shee
12:06 Su-Shee hm, I shouldn't have put my socks into the washing machine.. ;)
12:07 mberends aahh, now your gifts are wet :-(
12:08 Su-Shee but clean! ;)
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12:21 pugs_svn r29272 | pmurias++ | [viv] add missing VAST::Tight_and
12:21 pugs_svn r29273 | pmurias++ | [mildew] progress on porting to new STD
12:24 mberends oops. http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2009-12-06 has just lost the logs from 00:00 to 11:59 UTC. Could have sworn they were there 30 minutes ago :-(
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14:01 pmurias TimToady: the VAST nodes for methodcall contains the method name and argument only in .
14:03 ng_feed rakudo-ng: colomon++
14:03 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Move Int.unpolar to Any.unpolar, relax constraints on the type passed as the argument.
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14:06 dalek rakudo/ng: 4d71a27 | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/ (3 files):
14:06 dalek rakudo/ng: Move Int.unpolar to Any.unpolar, relax constraints on the type passed as the argument.
14:06 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4​d71a270d1a96fa8640cfdf0abd4b685427eb336
14:06 pugs_svn r29274 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Methodically test Int.unpolar, Rat,unpolar, and Num.unpolar.
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14:42 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning
14:48 mberends morning Wolfman2000, almost everyone is away today
14:48 Wolfman2000 mberends: kind of figured
14:55 pmurias mberends: hi
15:02 vamped joined #perl6
15:04 vamped mberends: ... so what happened from 0:00 to 12:00 ?
15:04 mberends hi pmurias, I'm beginning to get familiar with mildew-js :) nice work!
15:06 mberends vamped: there may have been some recent tweaks to the server code, with unintended side effects. but that's just a guess.
15:06 vamped hopefully nothing interesting was missed
15:07 mberends the rows are probably there in some tables, it's probably the SQL queries that are misbehaving.
15:08 carlin For it to lose exactly 12 hours it looks like a config problem
15:08 arthur-_ joined #perl6
15:08 mberends yes
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15:29 pmichaud good morning #perl6
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15:34 mberends good morning pm
15:36 vamped nice advent post, pm
15:37 pmichaud vamped: thanks!
15:44 moritz_ re
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15:54 diakopter moritz_: you saw the irclog miss?
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16:06 colomon ng: say (1...10).join
16:06 p6eval ng 4d71a2: 12345678910␤
16:06 colomon ng: say (1...10).join(' ');
16:06 p6eval ng 4d71a2: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤
16:09 payload joined #perl6
16:09 * colomon realized last night that if we have working basic loops and gather / take, it's easy enough to write an operator that takes two ints and returns the sequence from one to the other.  :)
16:10 mberends :) # nqp-rx makes easy things easy and hard things possible
16:11 colomon This was in ng.  :)  I'm afraid at the moment, ng makes super easy things cool, easy things hard, and hard things beyond impossible.
16:17 pmichaud having seen the many changes to the perl 6 spec over the last month, restarting development with ng was absolutely the right move.  I'm not sure we could manage the transitions in the master branch.
16:18 slavik pmichaud: rakudong?
16:18 pmichaud slavik: yes
16:18 slavik will it have proper install packages?
16:19 colomon pmichaud: oh sure, I agree ng was absolutely the right thing to do.  It's just a bugger to program in right now.  :)
16:19 pmichaud slavik: how do you mean "proper install packages"?
16:19 slavik pmichaud: correct make install that checkinstall can make rpm/deb packages out of :P
16:19 slavik and place it into /usr/local/bin and a way to change PERL6LIB
16:20 pmichaud slavik: we already have some targets for creating rpms
16:20 pmichaud PERL6LIB might not be "real" -- at the moment it's a cheat
16:20 slavik debian gets no love :(
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16:20 slavik I see
16:20 pmichaud slavik: anyway, package/install is a goal for rakudo star, not necessarily ng
16:20 slavik pmichaud: I know
16:20 slavik it just would be easier if I could install rakudo and treat it as "perl6"
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16:55 moritz_ diakopter: yes
16:57 Wolfman2000 ...and the OS Wars in my household has taken a new turn. I've finally convinced my dad that Mac OS X > Windows
16:57 mberends :)
16:58 Wolfman2000 We may be able to salvage a nearly broken laptop and put linux on it too.
17:11 jnthn afternoon, all :-)
17:11 Wolfman2000 afternoon jnthn.
17:12 Wolfman2000 In a few hours I'll prepare my Day 8 post just in case mathw isn't able to do Day 7
17:13 mathw it's done
17:13 phenny mathw: 03:12Z <colomon> tell mathw I had my Day 7 post ready to go this evening, so swapped with you.  You're up for day 7 now.  Hope that is okay.
17:13 mathw scheduled in
17:13 Wolfman2000 nice timing mathw
17:13 mathw I was rather startled by colomon's swapping
17:13 Wolfman2000 what's your time zone again?
17:13 mathw GMT
17:13 Wolfman2000 the usual goal for us has been to get out the posts within the first hour of the new GMT day
17:14 mathw yes I should really have written it and scheduled it last night
17:14 Wolfman2000 it's alright...don't worry about it
17:14 Wolfman2000 I'll make sure to proofread it soon
17:15 * Wolfman2000 is presently installing Ubuntu on his VirtualBox
17:15 mathw please do, there may be a stupid mistake or two in there
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17:28 Wolfman2000 VirtualBox++ for working rather well
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17:31 colomon jnthn, pmichaud, etc: I'm still getting very frequent crashes in ng.
17:32 colomon If someone can clue me in on how to build with GDB debugging info in parrot, I think I can probably produce some useful GDB backtraces and valgrind runs.
17:36 mberends colomon: add -ggdb to the gcc compiler options
17:37 arnsholt colomon: If you get the help info from Parrot's config script there's an option to enable debugging symbols
17:37 jnthn colomon: I think we build an optimized Parrot by default on some platforms, which probably disables debugging info.
17:37 arnsholt Then you can pass that to Rakudo's configure
17:38 jnthn Well, it may do anyways...
17:38 * jnthn knows on his platform that it can be a case of choosing debug info or optimized build.
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17:44 colomon Thanks, guys, I'll give that a try now.
17:47 colomon Errr, I'll give that a try after I try to add just a couple more sensible unpolar.t tests, and get a bus error again.
17:51 colomon --debugging=0        Disable debugging, default = 1
17:52 colomon Does that mean -- debugging=0 disables debugging, or --debugging=1 disables debuging?
17:52 colomon is parrot build with debugging by default?
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17:58 slavik will it be possible to get thread/heap dumps of memory that parrot has allocated?
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18:00 isawallama Brooke should know.
18:01 colomon Hmmm, definitely looks like the parrot makefile I have does not have debugging: CFLAGS in parrot/Makefile includes -DDISABLE_GC_DEBUG=1 -DNDEBUG -O3
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18:05 slavik and also limit how much meamory parrot will allocate?
18:05 abbe hi everyone
18:05 abbe anyone running rakudo on freebsd ?
18:07 mberends colomon: fwiw, -NDEBUG causes all assert() macros to "disappear", ie output no code at all.
18:09 colomon guess I should ask on #parrot, eh?
18:09 abbe gcc is segfaulting for me on 8.0-RELEASE (amd64)
18:13 jnthn abbe: That's a bug in gcc. :-( There is a workaround, but I forget it...I'm sure it came up here a month or so back.
18:13 abbe jnthn: yeah, I was the one who mentioned it last month. I've forgot to followup on that :(
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18:14 abbe jnthn: Could you please look it in your archives ?
18:15 jnthn abbe: I guess it'll be searchable in the irclogs
18:15 abbe One of my friend was able to build it on his dual-quad core xeon box, but I'm not able to build it on my core 2 duo boxen.
18:15 jnthn pointme: irclogs
18:15 pointme Sorry, I don't know anything about irclogs
18:16 jnthn pointme: irclog
18:16 pointme Sorry, I don't know anything about irclog
18:16 jnthn aww
18:16 abbe oh okay, i got it from /topic
18:16 jnthn oh!
18:16 jnthn :-)
18:16 jnthn abbe: I don't have any archive of my own besides that one. :-)
18:17 abbe thanks jnthn :)
18:17 moritz_ diakopter: yes
18:25 mberends abbe: searching irclog seems not to find the issue, but it was something about freebsd 8.0 having a slightly outdated gcc (4.2x) with a bug.  your best option would be to somehow install a newer gcc.
18:26 abbe mberends: yes, I know freebsd has 4.2.1, i'm wondering if there is some workaround patch which I can apply to rakudo source for that
18:26 abbe I want to avoid depending on GCC, if possible at all.
18:28 mberends abbe: right, but probably no workaround documented :-(
18:30 abbe It seems some logs are wiped off
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18:30 abbe http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2009-11-04 http://[2001:4860:b006::84]/search?q=cache:tqby​-vb2MRUJ:irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/2009-11-04+s​ite:irclog.perlgeek.de+rakudo+gcc+freebsd+2009+​segfault&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a
18:33 * moritz_ wonders wtf is going on there
18:34 moritz_ it's still in the DB
18:44 jnthn Maybe the query is a bit queer. :-)
18:45 moritz_ I'll dump the database and try it locally
18:46 abbe lol
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19:13 moritz_ somehow all those rows were marked as spam
19:15 Wolfman2000 ...I think git's make test takes longer than make spectest for rakudo right now
19:15 Wolfman2000 I don't know if that's an accomplishment or not
19:16 mberends it's strange, but why compile git from source? is this your Ubuntu install?
19:17 Wolfman2000 mberends: yes.
19:17 Wolfman2000 as far as why...well, I'm not in that big of a rush.
19:18 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "unpolar.t crash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91689
19:18 colomon now with better debugging info....
19:20 arnsholt Hmm. 0x48 looks like a weird memory address
19:20 arnsholt Perhaps an unitialised variable?
19:22 jnthn colomon: Hmm. I think I saw another stack trace not so long ago that also looked like that. :-/
19:22 colomon also from me, or... ?
19:22 jnthn colomon: Maybe.
19:23 colomon I've dumped up a bunch over the last week or so.
19:23 jnthn colomon: It's not blindingly obvious from the stack trace where exactly the problem is.
19:23 arnsholt Good question. I suppose it could be, but my first guess would be that this comes from inside Parrot
19:23 jnthn colomon: The interesting bit is where we've been leading up to that point.
19:23 colomon I've still got gdb sitting open at the crash, so if there's anything I can run there that would help you...
19:23 moritz_ colomon: just read your calendar post - colomon++
19:23 arnsholt colomon: How big is the function it fails in?
19:23 colomon moritz_: danke.
19:23 jnthn arnsholt: It does, right.
19:24 moritz_ colomon: just one minor nit: (1, 2, 3)».++ isn't supposed to work
19:24 jnthn arnsholt: The question is, did it go somewhere in Rakudo beforehand.
19:24 moritz_ colomon: ++ needs an lvalue, and a literal number is not writable
19:24 colomon moritz_: I was wondering about that last night.
19:24 colomon no one was on-line who knew.
19:24 moritz_ you could write that >>.succ though
19:24 jnthn arnsholt: And did something we did in Rakudo break it.
19:24 jnthn arnsholt: Or is it completely a Parrot bug.
19:25 Wolfman2000 and my final results of make testing git...
19:25 colomon jnthn, arnsholt: I think it's a rakudo ng bug.
19:25 Wolfman2000 2 fixes, 4656 successes, 11 brokens
19:25 arnsholt jnthn: If it's an unitialised variable I think it has to be a Parrot bug
19:25 colomon The crashes in the file seem to depend on what is compiled later on in the file, if that makes any sense.
19:25 moritz_ rakudo also has some C code, which could be buggy
19:25 arnsholt From the stack trace, c isn't an argument to the function, and the return value is c->current_sig
19:26 colomon In this case, the file worked, I added a second case, and now it dies before the first case finishes.
19:26 carlin abbe: I also get a segfault compiling rakudo on 8.0
19:26 abbe carlin: you know of that workaround...?
19:26 arnsholt colomon: Anyways, try to see if c being uninitialised is possible with the flow of the function
19:27 lisppaste3 colomon annotated #91689 "code that's failing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91689#1
19:27 abbe carlin: I'm trying to port it to freebsd...
19:27 colomon With just the first is_approx there, the code works.  With the second one added, the code fails BEFORE the first one has printed out its test message.
19:28 colomon And as I said, this sort of thing has been happening to me a *lot* in ng.
19:28 colomon arnsholt: "c"?
19:28 arnsholt colomon: From the gdb trace you posted, it failed on this statement: "return c->current_sig;"
19:29 arnsholt And the error was a protection failure trying to access address 0x00000048
19:30 arnsholt Which means that c has to point at 0x48, which is an invalid memory location
19:30 abbe A work around I came across is removing all -W switches, and just keeping '-Wall', but wondering if it generates good code ?
19:30 colomon The previous line is   Parrot_Context const *c = get_context_struct_fast(interp, ctx);
19:30 abbe good as in safe, reliable.
19:31 colomon I'm pretty much completely ignorant of parrot internals, so I've no idea if that is supposed to return null or not.
19:31 colomon arnsholt: if it would help, I can rerun that code under valgrind and see what it says.
19:32 arnsholt colomon: Might be worth a try. Hopefully it'll complain about jumps depending on uninitialised bytes somehwere in get_context_struct_fast() or below it
19:32 colomon firing it up now, usually takes a few minutes.
19:36 dalek book: 1b7ec89 | jnthn++ | src/roles.pod:
19:36 dalek book: [roles] Start to fill out the roles chapter a bit.
19:36 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/1b​7ec89738197f8cea4db7c94b46237e3a766cf5
19:36 colomon unfortunately, parrot's gc fires off dozens of errors under normal conditions...
19:37 arnsholt Heh
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19:38 arnsholt Which parrot rev is this?
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19:39 lisppaste3 colomon annotated #91689 "end of valgrind on the unpolar error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/91689#2
19:39 arnsholt In case you didn't get my last: Which Parrot rev is this?
19:40 colomon 42822
19:40 moritz_ colomon: try a newer parrot version
19:40 moritz_ colomon: since that revision a branch was merged...
19:40 moritz_ and the branch had somethiing to do with calling conventions
19:41 arnsholt Sounds like a plan
19:41 colomon any advice for a particular version to try?
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19:41 moritz_ when in doubt, use HEAD
19:41 jnthn ;-)
19:42 jnthn A good general principle. :-)
19:42 * jnthn afk for a bit.
19:43 colomon all right, then, HEAD it is.
19:43 colomon yow, that brought in a *lot* of changes.  now I'm scared...
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19:48 moritz_ our multi method ord() is export { ... } # quiz question: what's the problem with this code?
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19:49 colomon does it need the self argument name to be is export?
19:49 moritz_ A: in the sub version that's generated from that, the first argument is anonymous
19:49 moritz_ right
19:49 colomon \o/
19:49 colomon of course, probably have that all over core at the moment....
19:50 colomon I have a vague memory the syntax to name the first argument doesn't work in ng yet.
19:50 moritz_ ng: class A {  method b($foo:) is export { say $foo } }; A.new.b()
19:50 p6eval ng 4d71a2: Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤current instr.: 'perl6;A;b' pc 255 (EVAL_1:112)␤
19:50 colomon and we were certainly bad about doing that in master, too.
19:51 arnsholt Does moving to head fix it?
19:52 colomon arnsholt: still compiling.
19:52 arnsholt 'k
19:52 arnsholt If not, I might have something worth checking out
19:53 colomon my first build actually failed, so I'm trying to start over again, hoping it was a glitch in my ad hoc build process rather than a parrot / rakudo incompatibility.
19:56 * colomon crosses his fingers for rakudo's make...
19:59 colomon we have a build
20:00 colomon we also have a small boy insisting I read board books to him.
20:02 colomon well, that made that version of the crash go away.
20:02 colomon let me play with things a bit and see if it pops back up again or not.
20:03 arnsholt 'k
20:04 moritz_ does dalek report from the ng branch facefully?
20:04 colomon facefully?
20:04 ng_feed rakudo-ng: moritz++
20:04 ng_feed rakudo-ng: Merge branch 'ng' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo into ng
20:04 ng_feed rakudo-ng: moritz++
20:04 ng_feed rakudo-ng: make ord() and chr() work with named args
20:05 colomon ooo, now I need to see how you did it.  :)
20:05 moritz_ by cheating, ,of course!
20:05 colomon :)
20:05 dalek rakudo/ng: 63caed2 | moritz++ |  (14 files):
20:05 dalek rakudo/ng: Merge branch 'ng' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo into ng
20:05 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6​3caed2942d6efee8fabb408aa3cbc1902a7440d
20:05 dalek rakudo/ng: 7fc4854 | moritz++ | src/core/Any- (2 files):
20:05 dalek rakudo/ng: make ord() and chr() work with named args
20:05 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/7​fc4854c20a040e31c690003cdd10e81b4e1e097
20:06 colomon any objections to my checking in the parrot bump?
20:06 moritz_ no objection here
20:06 colomon so you got rid of the is export and added a proto instead?
20:06 moritz_ right
20:06 rgrau more or less, how many tests does ng pass? any idea ?
20:07 moritz_ rgrau: I'll tell you after a test run :-)
20:07 colomon it just ran 1669 on mine, but I don't know how many of those are fudged.
20:08 rgrau thanks, it's only to know more or less how far is rakudo master branch
20:08 pugs_svn r29275 | colomon++ | [t/spec] Test method forms of cis.
20:09 moritz_ 1514 tests pass :-)
20:10 colomon rgrau: it's still pretty far (as you might gather from the count) but there's probably only 20 or so big things to fix and then the rest should fall into place pretty quickly.
20:10 moritz_ like, iterating ranges :-)
20:11 carlin abbe: remove -Wmissing-include-dirs
20:11 rgrau yeah, I read something about that in jnthn and masak's posts some time ago. too many yaks to  shave at first
20:12 colomon moritz_: don't know if you saw or not, but I implemented a crude Int ... Int overnight, which I suspect will help for a lot of test file uses of Range.
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20:12 pugs_svn r29276 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge split-simple2.t for rakudo-ng
20:12 pugs_svn r29276 |
20:12 pugs_svn r29276 | Somehow it blows up with the fudges, but works fine without them. Huh.
20:13 colomon moritz_: hopefully bumping parrot has gotten rid of that issue too.  :)
20:13 abbe aha, carlin :-) danke
20:13 colomon running tests now...
20:14 moritz_ Could not find non-existent sub &fail
20:14 moritz_ I "love" those
20:15 * moritz_ hopes Tene++ gives fail() a shot
20:16 Wolfman2000 hey guys! We're famous now!
20:16 Wolfman2000 http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/​12/06/196202/The-Perl-6-Advent-Calendar <-- We're on Slashdot now!
20:17 colomon no freaking way.
20:17 colomon !!!!!!!!!!!
20:18 Wolfman2000 excited now?
20:18 moritz_ woot
20:18 * moritz_ wonders if the site is still reachable...
20:18 Wolfman2000 presently is
20:18 colomon it's wordpress, they've got to be able to handle a slashdotting, don't they?
20:19 Wolfman2000 colomon: guess we'll find out
20:19 Wolfman2000 in the meantime, have to wrap up some other things. brb/afk
20:20 colomon well, that should help our number of hits for today.
20:20 moritz_ it did already
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20:20 moritz_ 1.8k hits today, which is the max so far
20:23 dalek rakudo/ng: 0a236ac | (Solomon Foster)++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
20:23 dalek rakudo/ng: Bump parrot revision to head in an attempt to get around the random crashes I have been experiencing.
20:23 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​a236ac5ef9c59860028fb07bcf63e52894967fd
20:23 carlin It took a whole 4 minutes between the story being posted and a Duke Nukem joke ...
20:24 * moritz_ not surprised
20:26 colomon you know, if SDL was working on perl 6, it would be cool to program a little game in p6 and dub it Duke Nukem Forever....
20:27 * colomon is now imagining a DNF adventure game in p6 for the Book....
20:27 moritz_ don't
20:27 moritz_ adventure games are way too long for a book
20:30 jaldhar joined #perl6
20:30 arnsholt moritz_: But it'd be puntastic! ;)
20:30 colomon It could be a very small adventure....
20:31 colomon we could explain the delay in release of Duke was due to waiting for perl 6 to be ready...
20:32 moritz_ except that DNF was discontinued
20:34 tarski joined #perl6
20:34 tarski where can i get perl6
20:34 tarski rakudo, parrot, pugs, what is the best to use right now in terms of stability?
20:35 colomon rakudo.
20:35 moritz_ rakudo is being actively developed, in contrast to pugs
20:35 moritz_ and it uses parrot under the hood
20:35 moritz_ tarski: http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo
20:36 tarski thanks
20:36 moritz_ you're welcome
20:41 colomon Advent calendar appears to be getting about 1800 hits an hour at the moment...
20:42 arnsholt Not bad. Let's hope it gives a bump in interest
20:43 colomon also, pmichaud's metaoperator post has picked up two "isn't this apl?" comments already.
20:57 carlin The important thing is that it lets people know Perl 6 is still alive and kicking
20:57 tarski building perl6 from source now :)
20:58 moritz_ colomon: are you aware of any low-hanging fruit in ng?
20:58 moritz_ (or semi-LHF)
21:04 colomon one sec, taking out garbage
21:11 astrojp left #perl6
21:12 colomon okay.
21:13 colomon off the top of my head, we could probably win back a bunch of tests by systematically doing what you did to ord to other functions.  There are fudged named argument tests all over the test suite, on functions that otherwise work.
21:14 colomon Actually, "win back" isn't appropriate for a lot of those, which never worked in rakudo as far as I know.
21:14 colomon need to change boy, will think more while doing it.
21:16 infrared joined #perl6
21:17 infrared installing rakudo on fbsd, how should i specify the parrot location?
21:19 mberends infrared: --parrot-config=<path>, but by you question you probably haven't installed parrot
21:20 mberends *your
21:20 infrared mberends: i installed it in /usr/local/parrot (non root)
21:21 mberends infrared: then confirm you have /usr/local/parrot/bin/parrot_config
21:21 infrared i do
21:22 infrared make PARROTCONFIG=/usr/local/parrot/bin/parrot_config install clean
21:22 infrared is what i'm attempting
21:22 mberends rather try this:
21:22 moritz_ perl Configure --parrot-config=/usr/local​/parrot/bin/parrot_config
21:22 moritz_ make install
21:22 mberends :)
21:23 arnsholt Telepathy =D
21:23 mberends er, Configure.pl
21:23 moritz_ right
21:24 mberends just checking, the parrot install and install-dev are the same, right?
21:24 moritz_ install = install-dev + install-base or something
21:24 mberends :)
21:25 moritz_ s/base/bin/
21:25 infrared thank you
21:26 alester joined #perl6
21:27 abbe thanks carlin and jnthn :)
21:28 Wolfman2000 Alright, time to prepare my posting...and honestly, I'll need some assistance for part of it.
21:29 colomon Wolfman2000: mathw's post is ready to go for today, it appears.
21:29 Wolfman2000 colomon: right. Well, I'll get mine ready now for tomorrow then
21:29 colomon mathw: I just spent day 6 telling people not to do @a>>.say.  :)
21:30 colomon mathw: also, in the ^$n paragraph, the last character is lost.
21:30 Wolfman2000 ...I may be able to use >>. somehow. At least, if I can figure out how to change my .map version
21:30 colomon mathw: other than that, very nice post!  methodical and clear, IMO.
21:32 carlin abbe: np, it certainly is a weird gcc bug
21:34 moritz_ "This could have been written using a bare <code>say</code> subroutine call, but I prefer the method call syntax."
21:34 moritz_ not true.
21:34 moritz_ not in Perl 6
21:34 abbe carlin: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/q​uery-pr.cgi?pr=ports/139010 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/q​uery-pr.cgi?pr=ports/139012 the updated PR will appear here in few minutes.
21:36 moritz_ mathw: mind if I remove that sentence?
21:37 mathw it's not true?
21:37 moritz_ rakudo: for 1..4 { say }
21:37 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: say requires an argument at line 2, near "}"␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 2610)␤
21:37 mathw cool
21:37 mathw I like Perl 6 a little more
21:37 moritz_ oh, one more thing
21:37 moritz_ ^@array.elems Z @array
21:37 moritz_ can even be written nicer
21:37 moritz_ as @array.kv
21:38 mathw I think that requires a new paragraph
21:38 mathw as it's a progression from the original idea
21:38 mathw so I'll add one for it when you've removed that sentence
21:39 mathw and as for not using >>.say, it should work fine if your I/O system thinks in lines, and you don't care about ordering...
21:39 mathw although >>.say is likely to be rare,  ithink
21:39 mathw >>.something-else-which-doesnt-do-IO is more likely I think :)
21:40 cspencer joined #perl6
21:40 Wolfman2000 ah, here's what I was looking for... [sourcecode light="true"]
21:41 moritz_ mathw: I'm storing the post right now, but it takes ages :/
21:41 mathw booooooo
21:41 mathw slow bad
21:41 mathw but we can cope
21:41 moritz_ that's the /. effect
21:41 moritz_ still I'm amazed the site is still up :-)
21:42 moritz_ done
21:42 Wolfman2000 moritz_: preparing my draft as you guys speak
21:42 Wolfman2000 haven't been affected that much
21:42 moritz_ mathw: I also changed ^@array.elems Z @array to @array.kv
21:42 mathw as I said,  iwas going to add another paragraph for that
21:43 moritz_ oh, I thought you meant the other thing (empty say)
21:43 mathw heh
21:43 mathw I'll sort it out
21:43 moritz_ mathw++
21:44 moritz_ @karma mathw
21:44 lambdabot mathw has a karma of 14
21:44 mathw gosh
21:44 mathw how did that happen
21:44 moritz_ mathw++ # like this
21:45 mathw yes I know that
21:45 Su-Shee left #perl6
21:45 moritz_ :-)
21:45 mathw but I'm surprised it's been that much since I changed my nick
21:50 Wolfman2000 ...I hope I didn't mix up all of the purposes of .comb now...
21:50 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @tmp = "Hello".comb; say @tmp[1];
21:50 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: e␤
21:50 Wolfman2000 ...probably have to recompile rakudo or something
21:51 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say "Hello".comb;
21:51 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Hello␤
21:51 moritz_ rakudo: say "Hello".comb.join('|')
21:51 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: H|e|l|l|o␤
21:51 Wolfman2000 moritz_: I know of that too
21:51 moritz_ rakudo: say "Hello".comb(/<[ao]>/).join('|')
21:52 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: o␤
21:55 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say "Perl 6 Advent".comb(/<alpha>/).join('|');
21:55 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: P|e|r|l|A|d|v|e|n|t␤
21:56 moritz_ rakudo: say "Perl 6 Advent".comb(/<alpha>+/).join('|');
21:56 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Perl|Advent␤
21:56 Wolfman2000 moritz_++: Another good one.
21:56 Wolfman2000 But I don't want to deal with too many regex patterns yet
21:56 Wolfman2000 That's a gift for another day. :)
21:57 cspencer left #perl6
21:57 Juerd_ I finally found out why I don't like python's ":".join(list)
21:57 Wolfman2000 Juerd_: counterintuitive?
21:57 Juerd_ You can't do foo.split(":").join(":").split(":").join(":")...
21:58 Juerd_ So here's a rule: opposite operations should be stackable as methods :)
22:00 Tene moritz_: would a simple &fail that just throws an exception be okay for now?
22:00 Tene could be caught with try { ... }
22:01 synth joined #perl6
22:01 moritz_ Tene: making it an alias for return Mu; would be a better stopgap solution, I think
22:01 Tene Oh?
22:01 Tene Okay, I can do that.
22:01 slavik Juerd_: python in general is proud to be dumb
22:02 slavik GIL?!
22:02 Tene slavik: rakudo can't do threads *at all*
22:02 slavik Tene: not yet :P
22:02 Juerd_ slavik: Python is certainly not dumb.
22:02 slavik Tene: what's the point of having threads if they aren't concurrent? why not just go back to Solaris ...
22:02 Juerd_ slavik: It has a few design bugs. So does Perl 5. And, as I'm sure we'll eventually discover, so will Perl 6.
22:03 slavik Juerd_: GIL is there by design
22:03 Juerd_ I don't know what GIL is
22:03 Juerd_ Do you know what a design bug is? :)
22:03 Tene global interpreter lock
22:04 slavik ie: no thread concurrency
22:04 pmurias joined #perl6
22:04 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say "5065726C36".comb(/<xdigit>**2/).map: { chr(:16( $_ ) ) } ).join('');
22:04 Juerd_ Design bugs are, by definition, by design :)
22:04 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Syntax error at line 2, near ").join('')"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
22:04 slavik also ... OpenGL in Python is 50% slower than C/Perl for a very simple reason ...
22:04 Wolfman2000 ...BAH
22:05 slavik for every opengl call, there is a call to glError()
22:05 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say "5065726C36".comb(/<xdigit>**2/).map: { chr(:16( $_ ) ) } );
22:05 * Wolfman2000 copied too much
22:05 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Syntax error at line 2, near ");"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
22:05 slavik the red book explicitly says not to do this.
22:05 Wolfman2000 rakudo: say "5065726C36".comb(/<xdigit>**2/).map: { chr(:16( $_ ) ) } ;
22:05 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Perl6␤
22:05 Juerd_ Wolfman2000: Did you know the bot also responds to private messages? :)
22:05 Wolfman2000 Juerd_: ...that may be useful.
22:06 slavik I also dislike the almost java like + for string cat
22:06 slavik it should be either explicit like Perl or automatically converted like Java
22:06 * Juerd_ sighs
22:06 Wolfman2000 Python is an interesting beast.
22:06 moritz_ slavik: did you mean javascript?
22:06 slavik "val = " + str(some_val) + "\n" is messed up IMO
22:07 Juerd_ Context is great. Most languages don't have it.
22:07 slavik moritz_: javascript as well. I mean how Java does an auto .toString() for any object that you try to cat to a string
22:07 Juerd_ dog
22:07 carlin rakudo: say "5065726C36".comb(/<xdigit>**2/).map: { chr '0x' ~ $_ }; # Wolfman2000
22:07 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Perl6␤
22:07 Tene slavik: Please try to keep the language-bashing down a bit.
22:08 wayland76 joined #perl6
22:08 slavik like: int a = 5; System.out.println("" + a); will wrap the 'a' in Integer class and call .toString() on it
22:08 slavik Tene: I am done :P
22:08 Wolfman2000 carlin++: ...I think I like that even more.
22:08 Tene We all do it a bit, but it's not quite the spirit we want for our community. :)
22:08 Wolfman2000 I'm going to borrow that for my post tomorrow.
22:11 foudfou joined #perl6
22:11 Wolfman2000 To all Perl 6 Advent admins and editors: my Day 8 post is ready for critiquing.
22:13 Wolfman2000 ...ah. So THAT'S how I was supposed to do it...?
22:13 Wolfman2000 alright, which to PM
22:14 foudfou hi all, I was wondering: is there a chance to see the statement ending semi-colons as optional ?
22:14 moritz_ foudfou: no
22:14 foudfou :-)
22:14 moritz_ foudfou: only those preceeding a curly brace at the end of a line
22:14 jonathanturner joined #perl6
22:15 jonathanturner The Perl 6 Advent thing was a cool idea.  I'm sure it's getting a lot of people playing with the current Perl6 builds
22:15 Tene foudfou: it's not likely you'll win much support for that as a lgobal language change, but you could certainly write a module that implements that change in a defined lexical scope with macros.
22:16 Wolfman2000 ...alright, I need more assistance from the experts. Presently, I'm using .map { method } over >>.method. I'm trying to figure out the right way of implementing it with my upcoming post.
22:16 Wolfman2000 jonathanturner: If nothing else, we've got a lot of people now due to Slashdot
22:16 Tene foudfou: use OptionalSemis; # Semicolons are optional after this, until the end of the scope
22:16 Tene Wolfman2000: you need a leading . on method
22:16 moritz_ jonathanturner: nearly 3k visitors from slashdot today, YaY
22:17 Tene rakudo: (1,2,3).map { .say }
22:17 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "{ .say }"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
22:17 Tene rakudo: (1,2,3).map: { .say }
22:17 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 1␤2␤3␤
22:17 jonathanturner moritz_: nice
22:17 Wolfman2000 Tene: I'm trying to avoid using map actually
22:17 nihiliad joined #perl6
22:17 Tene Ah.
22:17 Wolfman2000 I want to use the hyperoperator.
22:17 Wolfman2000 but in this case, I need to use...well, let me PM you
22:18 jonathanturner just had a quick question on the zip operator... if I do: ([1, 2, 3] Z [4, 5, 6]).perl.say I get [1, 4, 2, 5, 3, 6] instead of [(1, 4), (2, 5), (3, 6)].  is this flattening normal, or am I just reading it wrong?
22:18 moritz_ jonathanturner: it's a limitation in rakudo right now
22:19 moritz_ jonathanturner: it doesn't implement slices yet, which would be needed for the correct semantics
22:20 jonathanturner moritz_: how involved is the implementation side of it?  might be a fun project to help with
22:20 Limbic_Region joined #perl6
22:20 moritz_ jonathanturner: I don't really know; I guess pmichaud is the right person to ask
22:20 Limbic_Region FYI, there is an unanswered Rakudo question at PerlMonks - http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=811292
22:21 moritz_ Limbic_Region: I'll look at it later
22:24 zamolxes joined #perl6
22:24 moritz_ std: module Foo-1.0;
22:24 p6eval std 29276: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse module definition at /tmp/jGZLFG1mw9 line 1:␤------> [32mmodule Foo[33m⏏[31m-1.0;[0m␤    expecting any of:␤       trait␤  whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
22:25 moritz_ rakudo: module Foo:ver<1.0>;
22:26 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
22:26 moritz_ rakudo: module Foo:ver<1.0>; say 1
22:26 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 1␤
22:27 foudfou left #perl6
22:33 |Jedai| joined #perl6
22:37 Wolfman2000 Tene++: Thanks for the help and reminding everyont that Perl 6 is still the language of TIMTOWTDI
22:37 colomon joined #perl6
22:37 Wolfman2000 colomon: updated my piece. Have a crack at it if you want.
22:38 arnsholt On a somewhat relevant note, does anyone know who submitted the calendar to slashdot?
22:38 * arnsholt is curious =)
22:38 Wolfman2000 "timothy"
22:38 Wolfman2000 Specifically, http://www.monkey.org/~timothy/
22:39 colomon Wolfman2000:  need to make and eat dinner, but I'll try to take a look after.
22:39 astrojp joined #perl6
22:40 moritz_ there was a Timothy Nelson on p6l some time ago, iirc
22:40 moritz_ and maybe even here on irc, not sure
22:40 Wolfman2000 *shrugs* doesn't bother me.
22:41 moritz_ ah, but he usually uses wayland76 as a nick ;-)
22:42 arnsholt Ah. That name I recognise
22:44 Wolfman2000 that one I don't
22:45 moritz_ Wolfman2000: you should add the rot13 example that you mentioned at the end
22:45 moritz_ right now it's quite a cliff hanger
22:45 Wolfman2000 moritz_: I was hesistant since I already have a lot of information
22:45 moritz_ Wolfman2000: then at least put it in a paste bin and link to it, or so
22:46 Wolfman2000 moritz_: Hmm...good points. I'll look into it after I have dinner
22:46 moritz_ (and I also fixed KyleHa's name in the post :-)
22:46 wayland76 I didn't submit to Slashdot
22:47 wayland76 But I saw the article, and dropped by in case we needed help explaining things to visitors
22:47 Wolfman2000 then why does it say posted by timothy?
22:47 r0bby joined #perl6
22:47 moritz_ Wolfman2000: I think there's more than one timothy in the world :-)
22:47 wayland76 Seeing as how the name is in the Bible, it crops up in cultures all around the world where Christianity has been an influence
22:49 wayland76 In this case, it appears to have been "Timothy Lord", who is not to be confused with "Timothy Nelson" (the latter is me :) )
22:49 Wolfman2000 wayland76: thank you for clearing that up
22:51 wayland76 No worries :)
23:02 jnthn Wow, the calendar made /. :-)
23:06 astrojp_ joined #perl6
23:07 Wolfman2000 jnthn: few hours too late
23:11 zamolxes jnthn: meh, I was used with the reddit and hn trolls, completely forgotten about the /. ubertrolls
23:13 jnthn Wolfman2000: Heh, I was afk for a few hours. :-)
23:14 jnthn Wolfman2000: Sorry that my comment was a dupe, but it is fitting for a comment on /. ;-)
23:14 Wolfman2000 jnthn: it's alright
23:19 ssm joined #perl6
23:19 * jnthn checks when his entry is needed for...and is relieved to see he still has a few days to prepare :-)
23:21 r0bby joined #perl6
23:27 colomon 6570 hits on the Advent blog so far today.
23:29 moritz_ it's kinda fun watching the stats searing up :-)
23:30 Limbic_Region left #perl6
23:34 jan_ joined #perl6
23:41 wayland76 Everyone should post at least one comment; it's looking a little sparse.  Maybe we should troll slashdot :).
23:41 colomon Wolfman2000: Your post looks pretty solid to me, though it might be fun to add the rot13 code too.
23:46 payload joined #perl6

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