Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:06 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 14: Going to the Rats': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/14/day-14-going-to-the-rats/
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03:13 coke so, how would one return from a try block?
03:14 coke best I've got so far is to set a $flag and then have a conditional post-try.
03:19 diakopter pugs: sub a() { try { return 4 }; return 5 }; say a;
03:19 p6eval pugs: 4␤
03:20 diakopter I dunno, honestly
03:20 diakopter (I don't know whether that's up-to-spec)
03:20 coke doubt it.
03:20 coke rakudo: sub a() { try { return 4 }; return 5 }; say a;
03:20 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 5␤
03:20 coke the problem is that return is a CONTROL exception...
03:21 coke hurm. though now that I think about it..
03:22 diakopter mildew-js: sub a() { try { return 4 }; return 5 }; say a;
03:22 p6eval mildew-js: Can't open perl script "mildew": No such file or directory␤
03:22 coke (doesn't help that I'm actually using NQP)
03:22 diakopter o :)
03:25 arnsholt Reading about git makes me suspect it's not actually intended to be used by humans >.<
03:26 Wolfman2000 joined #perl6
03:26 Wolfman2000 ...I forgot. I'm supposed to post to the calendar tomorrow, aren't I?
03:26 coke diakopter: hurm. I think pugs might be right on this one.
03:28 carlin Wolfman2000: looks like it, http://dev.pugscode.org/browser/misc/perl6advent-2009/schedule
03:28 Wolfman2000 thanks for the reminder.
03:28 * Wolfman2000 has been kept busy the past few days
03:29 carlin Wolfman2000: did you see that someone attempted your Caesar cipher challenege?
03:29 Wolfman2000 carlin: I got a few email posts about it. didn't see a reason to reply.
03:30 * Wolfman2000 was also busy with wrapping up college stuff...stupid tuition and almost lost health records.
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04:10 Wolfman2000 reminder please: I know Perl 6 has .perl that should be the toString() equivalent. Are there any other similar commands?
04:17 carlin Wolfman2000: .perl returns the data structure. .Str, .Int, .Num etc. type-cast
04:18 Wolfman2000 ah, that explains that.
04:18 carlin rakudo: my %h = { foo => 1, bar => 2}; say %h.perl; say %h.Str; say %h.Int;
04:18 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
04:18 carlin argh, evalbot can't do hashes
04:19 carlin rakudo: my @h = { foo => 1, bar => 2}; say @h.perl; say @h.Str; say @h.Int;
04:19 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
04:19 carlin rakudo: my @h = <Foo bar baz>; say @h.perl; say @h.Str; say @h.Int;
04:19 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ["Foo", "bar", "baz"]␤Foo bar baz␤3␤
04:19 Wolfman2000 ...I forgot. Is there a quick way to shuffle the elements of a list around?
04:20 carlin my @a = <foo bar baz>; say @a.perl; @a .= pick(*); say @a.perl
04:20 carlin rakudo: my @a = <foo bar baz>; say @a.perl; @a .= pick(*); say @a.perl
04:20 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ["foo", "bar", "baz"]␤["baz", "bar", "foo"]␤
04:20 Wolfman2000 ...holy crap
04:21 Wolfman2000 now if only I understood what pick(*) is supposed to do with that
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04:21 Wolfman2000 ...along with .=
04:21 Wolfman2000 I thought ~ is the new concatenation operator. What does .= do now?
04:22 carlin @a .= pick(*); is the same as writing @a = @a.pick(*)
04:22 Wolfman2000 so @a.pick(*) picks the elements in random order...and then stored in @a again.
04:22 Wolfman2000 Where * means "all you can" in this context
04:23 carlin pick picks a number of elements at random
04:23 carlin rakudo: my @a = 1..5; say @a.pick(2)
04:23 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 53␤
04:23 Wolfman2000 I know it picks parameter elements
04:23 Wolfman2000 I'm writing on that tomorrow
04:24 carlin yes, * basically means everything, so it picks everything in a random order
04:25 Wolfman2000 ...and someone else is going to talk about the * soon. Oh well: sneak preview
04:28 carlin Wolfman2000: you definitely 'picked' a good topic :-)
04:28 Wolfman2000 ...urge...to groan...rising...
04:30 Wolfman2000 carlin: my post is ready for previewing.
04:46 diakopter coke: a
04:47 diakopter coke: ah
04:47 diakopter silly wireless keboard drops characters
04:47 diakopter keyboard
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05:24 dryden how goes the project?
05:25 Wolfman2000 which project? There are many in Perl 6
05:28 dryden I should have been more specific. I don't actually know enough to fully understand the progress of the Perl6 project in its entirety. I can say that I am very excited.
05:32 Wolfman2000 There are many implementations out there, with some farther along than others.
05:33 Wolfman2000 Primarily, this room focuses on Rakudo, with some also devoting time to...I think it's called Mildew
05:37 dryden I haven't heard of Mildew, I have heard of Rakudo. I've been meaning to try it out. I haven't yet, I'm concerned about performance since it runs on parrot (as far as I know).
05:37 Wolfman2000 dryden: the goal is to make it work first, then speed it up later.
05:39 dryden I definitely see your point, and completely agree with you. I'm starting to lose sight of the point in trying to make it work. Especially with Ruby having become so popular, and the recent release of stable Ruby 1.9
05:39 Wolfman2000 ...perhaps the best ones to answer your concerns are the developers of Rakudo
05:39 Wolfman2000 TimToady, pmichaud, jnthn: either of you guys here?
05:41 dryden Yikes, that's alright, I wouldn't want to disturb them. They're probably very busy.
05:47 [particle] they're probably sleeping
05:48 [particle] by the end of march, you'll see a release of rakudo named "Rakudo *"
05:48 [particle] it will be a usable subset of Perl 6, one with which you can solve everyday problems.
05:48 [particle] it may not be very fast, but it'll get the job done.
05:51 dryden That sounds really exciting, I suppose as wolfman said, step one is to get it working, and we can worry about performance later.
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05:57 dryden I think performance in the long run will still be an issue, simply because the set of "everyday problems" or applications in general are becoming more networked or web-based. And that's one area where performance still matters mostly because of server limitations and a massive number of users.
05:59 dryden By the time, Perl6 is out, stable, and performing well. Newer arguably "faster developing" languages like Ruby and Ruby based systems might have a stronghold.
06:00 dryden I'm not trying to depress anyone. I'm worried. I love Perl.
06:07 dryden I love what you're all doing. I'm so sorry for talking so much.
06:17 diakopter hm
06:20 diakopter I admit; I think dryden's comments have validity (dryden if you're reading the irclogs, feel free to return or otherwise continue the discussion).
06:24 wayland76 diakopter & dryden; have you read mst's post on Perl 5 vs. Perl 6?
06:25 wayland76 http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-trout/f_ck-perl-6/
06:26 Ryan52 mst is great
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06:42 wayland76 Well, I could do without the profanity, but he makes a good point
06:45 hejki yup
06:45 hejki perl5 is great :)
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06:59 mberends we need to hug our neighbours in #perl more - even yesterday a visitor asked what they thought of Perl 6 and the regular members just trashed it. I cannot find the log reference, but it was phrased ["Perl" 6].
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07:01 mberends masak!
07:01 masak \o/
07:01 phenny masak: 11 Dec 18:57Z <TimToady> tell masak if you call it Rocket Art you can say it's not rocket science...
07:01 phenny masak: 12 Dec 02:46Z <carlin> tell masak november and uri (owned by ihrd) have a lib/URI.pm
07:01 phenny masak: 12 Dec 03:01Z <carlin> tell masak ... but it looks like that is the last conflict \o/
07:02 hejki mberends: heh.. i'm a perl5 fanatic, but i tend to like perl6 instead of bashing it - after all it solves lots of stuff that's not that trivial in perl5 (at least without any additional modules :P)
07:02 masak carlin: I believe (but investigation needed) that it's "the same" URI.pm, possibly with improvements in the standalone repo.
07:02 hejki also i think it's a common misbelief that perl6 is even close to ready :P
07:03 masak hejki: the concept 'ready' is a mirage.
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07:03 hejki well i don't think perl6 is even close to usable
07:03 hejki atm :)
07:04 masak I respectfully disagree.
07:04 masak that said, I wouldn't use it for everything.
07:04 hejki sure, but i think that spending several tens of seconds to do for 1..10_00 -> $i is rw { $i++ } means it's not usable
07:04 masak yes, I know what you mean.
07:04 hejki (not sure if several tens of seconds are even enough for that)
07:04 hejki ye
07:04 hejki this is why i consider it being unusable :)
07:05 masak we seem to have different criteria, is all.
07:05 hejki yup. i love how all stuff is subjective :)
07:05 masak I wouldn't use Perl 6 for speed right now.
07:05 Supaplex let's all go back to dos 3.3.
07:05 masak then again, I wouldn't use Ruby for speed either.
07:05 hejki masak: well i'm crawling through project euler.net atm
07:05 hejki masak: and most of those do require some speed to be comfortable to test :P
07:06 hejki masak: (i've improved my algorithm skills a lot tho ! :))
07:06 masak hejki: trust me, I feel your pain.
07:06 hejki ye :P
07:06 masak hejki: wait until you run up against the complexity barriers, too. :/
07:06 hejki and the most fsced up thing is that i'd really want perl6 to be good and competetive language - cause i really do like it and the concept
07:06 masak hejki: patience. :)
07:07 hejki masak: heh.. using gaher { .. } with a for ^Inf -loop didn't work out as intetended either tbh ;>
07:07 masak no, Rakudo isn't lazy yet...
07:07 masak there's a branch going on where it will be.
07:07 hejki ye.. i'm patient, but i think that the amount of fuzz around perl6 makes other people impatient (also they might think that perl6 sucks, since they aren't aware of it's current state)
07:07 masak merge ETA one month.
07:07 hejki ahh
07:07 hejki :P
07:08 masak (that's my subjective estimate, based on current speed)
07:08 masak hejki: we try to target early adopters, and people who can fill in the blanks. :)
07:10 masak naturally, in almost any comparison against (say) Perl 5, Perl 6 is going to come up short right now. that's because no-one's ever tried this route before.
07:11 masak people who want the polished, well-tested product will have to hold their breath for a few years while people who are willing to improve the imperfect product get to work. :)
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07:12 hejki :)
07:12 masak thing is, we need more of the latter kind -- hence the active PR.
07:13 hejki i'm willing to do stuff if needed, i've never developed a language tho. :)
07:13 mberends hejki: that's the -Ofun here :-)
07:14 Supaplex lol
07:14 mberends and the most awesome language too :)
07:15 mberends er, *the*
07:15 Supaplex Larry likes my vanity license plates
07:16 mberends ... with what text ?
07:16 masak hejki: when I started getting interested in Perl 6, I had never developed a language either.
07:16 Supaplex perl6
07:17 mberends Supaplex: :-)
07:17 masak Supaplex: I remember you. you've been here before, haven't you?
07:17 Supaplex ohhh probably.
07:17 * Supaplex is still a Supaplex after all these years
07:18 masak I also remember enjoying the game 'Supaplex' many years ago on an i386 machine.
07:19 hejki masak: :)
07:19 Su-Shee joined #perl6
07:19 Su-Shee good morning.
07:20 mberends gm Su-Shee
07:20 masak Su-Shee: mornin'!
07:20 moritz_ good morning
07:20 Supaplex I still keep a 386sx16 for those good ole days myself.  Has a ide to cf adapter with a 32mb CF in it. :)
07:21 masak tonight I dreamt that we were slashdotted a second time.
07:22 moritz_ :-)
07:26 masak mberends: re #perl6: I hang on #perl6-on-freenode whenever I'm on IRC, trying to detect when people mention Perl 6. I'm sad to hear there are people trashing the language still. some of the members are very understanding post-bridge.
07:27 mberends masak: yes, I was sad too, it passed by before I could "try to help".
07:28 masak right. no use bringing it up after the fact. we'll try to be there next time instead. :)
07:28 mberends +1
07:29 Su-Shee It'll pass when there's something really nice to show off with.
07:29 masak the tendency to write '"Perl" 6' is easily understood as an expression of the feeling that Perl 6 is encrouaching somehow.
07:29 masak s/oua/oa/
07:31 masak mindshare-wise if not feature-wise.
07:31 mberends we've been through the naming debate often enough. we have make the best of what we've got.
07:31 mberends *have to
07:32 masak I'm in the "it's the right name, lay off it" camp...
07:33 hejki i guess the similarity between perl and perl6 is that both try to utilize every possible character in the syntax :)
07:33 moritz_ not quite
07:33 moritz_ since Perl 6 is Unicode-based, there are many unused characters left :-)
07:34 mberends unicode gives even more characters ... what moritz_ said :)
07:34 Su-Shee yes, wonderful. I'm already wishing for a use English ;)
07:35 Supaplex just wait until buu adds the orgasm operator
07:36 Su-Shee which will be an opengl-based sparkling 3d animated true color thingie? ;)
07:37 mberends virtual fun!
07:37 Supaplex yes. and if you don't draw it correctly, it's a syntax error.
07:37 masak some people like to think of the history of programming languages as a struggle where one 'usurps' others: http://twitter.com/byxorna/status/6641461450
07:38 hejki :P
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07:39 Su-Shee well who cares.. either perl 6 will be adopted or it won't and that doesn't depend on the name but on the environment, examples and usefulness.
07:40 hejki well i guess it has something to do with the name as well - there are loads of perl-bashers that haven't written a single line of perl
07:45 wayland76 Su-Shee: To continue our previous discussion, I just found a real reason to not use an online office suite
07:46 wayland76 It stops working when a truck drives past your house and tears the telephone line from the pole, as happened in the midst of our previous discussion :)
07:46 hejki :P
07:46 Supaplex hahaah
07:46 moritz_ ouch
07:48 Supaplex wayland76: so why do you live in a place like that? ;)
07:48 wayland76 Because it's nice out here in the country :)
07:49 Supaplex cool
07:49 Su-Shee I know why I like the city.. ;)
07:50 wayland76 In relation to that link; is Perl 6 fast?
07:50 Supaplex because it has a different smell
07:50 hejki wayland76: not atm, but i hope it'll be :)
07:50 wayland76 ok, just checking -- that's what I thought :)
07:51 wayland76 Maybe we should add it to the spec :)
07:51 moritz_ perl 6 is lightning fast - just no Perl 6 compiler so far :-)
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07:54 * Su-Shee -> office.
07:54 TiMBuS Can't return outside a routine
07:54 TiMBuS in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)
07:54 TiMBuS :I
07:55 TiMBuS ok but, what if i dont have a single return anywhere
07:55 moritz_ maybe a fail()?
07:55 moritz_ rakudo: ...
07:55 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
07:56 hejki rakudo: foo(2); sub foo (Int $x) { $x; #returns 2 }
07:56 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
07:56 hejki heh.. comments ftw :>
07:56 JimmyZ ng: sub foo { return {say $^a ~ $^b x 2 ~ 'bar2000'} }; $_ = foo; $_('f', 'o');
07:56 p6eval ng 0307c2: foobar2000␤
07:56 JimmyZ ng: sub foo { return {say $^b ~ $^a x 2 ~ 'bar2000'} }; $_ = foo; $_('f', 'o');
07:56 p6eval ng 0307c2: offbar2000␤
07:57 JimmyZ hello all, Is it right?
07:57 mberends looks right
07:57 JimmyZ ng: sub foo { {say $^a ~ $^b x 2 ~ 'bar2000'} }; $_ = foo; $_('f', 'o');
07:57 p6eval ng 0307c2: Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 2␤current instr.: '_block36' pc 260 (EVAL_1:113)␤
07:58 moritz_ TiMBuS: fail() and '...' both fall back to return() in rakudo
07:58 TiMBuS i see
07:58 JimmyZ pugs: sub foo { {say $^a ~ $^b x 2 ~ 'bar2000'} }; $_ = foo; $_('f', 'o');
07:58 p6eval pugs: *** Blocks with implicit params cannot occur at statement level␤    at /tmp/QTM8cu8d6P line 1, column 46-54␤
07:58 JimmyZ rakudo: sub foo { {say $^a ~ $^b x 2 ~ 'bar2000'} }; $_ = foo; $_('f', 'o');
07:58 TiMBuS im guessing its a fail() somewhere
07:58 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 2␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
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08:08 TiMBuS welp turns out it was a {...} i left somewhere. dang.
08:09 TiMBuS on a related note that old perl 6 irc bot i made went from using 70mb of ram to 107mb. O_o
08:12 hanekomu_ joined #perl6
08:15 carlin It'll increase more if you leave it running :-)
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08:27 diakopter wayland76: yes, why?
08:28 diakopter (why do you ask, I mean)
08:28 wayland76 diakopter: If that's in reference to the link I posted before, I thought it might be related to what dryden was asking about :)
08:30 diakopter wayland76: yes, the question you directed at me, above
08:30 diakopter whether I read the scrant at that url
08:32 diakopter I read dryden's use of "it" in "... starting to lose the point of trying to make it work.." as referring to "Perl 6 on Parrot"
08:33 diakopter since his only complaint was, precisely, "I'm concerned about performance since it runs on parrot"
08:33 diakopter his/her
08:34 diakopter (dryden's sex being unspecified)
08:35 Supaplex use Wahmbulance;
08:36 diakopter wayland76: you said "what dryden was asking about" - dryden's only question was "how goes the project?"
08:37 diakopter masak: who was trashing the language earlier?
08:37 wayland76 diakopter: I was thinking particularly of this dryden quote: "I'm not trying to depress anyone. I'm worried. I love Perl."
08:37 masak diakopter: according to mberends, someone on #perl6. I wasn't there.
08:37 masak um, #perl, that is.
08:38 masak sometimes the '6' sneaks in there, in writing as well as in speach... :/
08:38 diakopter ahhhh, I see the double typo now :) sry
08:38 diakopter actually, triple, now
08:39 Supaplex http://www.bash.org/?5300
08:39 masak diakopter: I rest my case. :/
08:39 diakopter (the earlier typos were what threw me off :)
08:39 masak Supaplex: I really like that one.
08:40 Supaplex I agree :) It fits pretty well right now.
08:41 Su-Shee *hihi* :)
08:42 diakopter HI
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09:14 dalek book: d5d9a2e | (Carlin Bingham)++ | src/ (2 files):
09:14 dalek book: [Builtins] [Preface] Fix typos
09:14 dalek book: s/postive/positive
09:14 dalek book: s/architectual/architectural
09:15 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/d5d9a2e83be3f16cfa2f207211b71d6c3c424cfc
09:15 BooK ONOES progress on the perl 6 book will wake me up!
09:18 masak BooK: maybe /ignore dalek?
09:18 moritz_ BooK: time to get a case sensitive hilight :-)
09:23 BooK moritz_: yeah :)
09:42 * masak .oO( Let's finish the Perl 6 book quickly, so we don't wake BooK up unnecessarily! )
09:43 * moritz_ has to hand in his thesis on Friday. After that he might have more time for writing book stuff
09:44 pmurias joined #perl6
09:45 masak it's fun to say "book", isn't it? :)
09:45 masak when I write "book", it shows up highlighted like a nickname in my client.
09:46 moritz_ let's just come up with a good name for it, then we can call it by name
09:46 masak <superlative adjective> Perl 6
09:47 diakopter "Up the Perl 6 Space Elevator"
09:47 diakopter "Orbiting Rakudo Star"
09:48 diakopter "Blasting Off with Perl 6"
09:49 moritz_ what about something more modest? "Using Perl 6"?
09:50 masak that's a nice title.
09:50 masak not very exciting, but perhaps we don't need exciting.
09:51 moritz_ I think it captures that idea that we want usable examples, to enable people to write usable Perl 6 code
09:51 carlin Only problem is once you have Using Perl 6, Learning Perl 6, Programming Perl 6 ... it gets confusing as to which is which
09:51 hejki ye
09:51 diakopter "Using Perl 6: The first high is free"
09:51 hejki "Landing Manual for Planet Perl6"
09:51 moritz_ carlin: so far there's neither of {Learning,Programming} Perl 6, so we can ignore them if we want :-)
09:52 hejki "The Big Book of Perl6"
09:52 hejki could it be a pun as well?
09:52 moritz_ that's definitively not what we're writing
09:52 diakopter well, sixperl call mentioned Damian+Larry ramping up on Camel6, and Stonehedge wrote a lot of LearningPerl6 already...
09:53 diakopter so, I disagree that those can be ignored
09:53 diakopter esp since they'll likely be O'Reilly
09:53 hejki "grammar Perl6 { .. }"
09:54 diakopter "Adopting Perl 6"
09:54 diakopter "Skinny-Dipping With Perl 6"
09:54 diakopter "Seducing Perl 6"
09:54 diakopter "Abusing Perl 6"
09:54 diakopter I mean, there are lots of comical tongue-in-cheek cutesy options
09:55 moritz_ diakopter: Learning Perl 6 is a sleeping project
09:55 diakopter "Implementing Perl 6" is already around 100,000 pages long
09:56 diakopter so I don't think that'll ever be printed
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09:56 diakopter "Birthing Perl 6" will need to be travailed by TimToady
09:57 diakopter "Debunking Perl 6" is plenty long too
09:57 diakopter "Trolling #perl6" is never long enough :P
09:57 mberends "Sleeping with Perl 6"
09:58 diakopter on that note, "A Taste of Perl 6" wouldn't be all that bad.
09:58 hejki "Bashing Perl6" :)
09:58 diakopter so, "Tasting Perl 6"
09:58 diakopter "Wandering Perl 6"
09:59 * moritz_ likes "A Taste of Perl 6", but it feels like it stays too much on the surface
09:59 diakopter I mean, "Exploring Perl 6"
09:59 diakopter "Drowning in Perl 6"
09:59 mberends "Diving for Perl 6"
09:59 cotto joined #perl6
09:59 diakopter oooooo
10:00 diakopter as in "Cracking the Perl 6 Oyster"
10:00 diakopter "This Oyster Tastes Like Onions"
10:01 hejki cracking the oyster sounds a bit perverted :)
10:01 diakopter oh. I thought it was the next one that was...
10:01 hejki hmm.. it would be if you'd s/Onions/Blood/;
10:02 hejki "Primal Concrete Perl6" ?
10:03 diakopter "Perl 6, Thusly"
10:04 hejki "Lo and Behold - Perl6"
10:05 diakopter "Perl 6, Exploded. Just some of the Clusters, though"
10:05 hejki :P
10:06 hejki "Practical Roundup for Perl6"
10:06 diakopter "Interring Perl 6"
10:06 masak "I made you a Perl 6, but I eated it"
10:06 diakopter or did I mean Entering
10:06 diakopter lol
10:07 diakopter "I CAN HAZ PERL6"
10:07 hejki "Perl6 makes the Cake real"
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10:08 diakopter "Perl 6 Takes the Cake"
10:08 hejki "Perl6 ICT - Intensive Combat Training course with Chuck Norris"
10:08 carlin Iridescent Perl 6
10:08 Su-Shee Perl 6 Primer which we could shorten to p6p
10:08 hejki "Adolescent Perl6"
10:08 diakopter "Perl 6: A Piece of Cake"
10:08 hejki "Perl 6: A Cuckoo for Cac"
10:08 hejki s/Cac/Caca/;
10:09 Su-Shee Diving into Perl 6
10:09 diakopter "The Nascent Perl 6".  "The Latent Perl 6"  "The Extant Perl 6"  "The Burgeoning Perl 6"
10:09 mberends "Punning in Perl 6" - the #perl6 style guide
10:09 hejki :P
10:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: that's already the name of a blog about Perl 6
10:09 masak "The Truth About Perl 6"
10:09 Su-Shee moritz_: oh, never heard of it.
10:10 diakopter "Plumbing The Depths of Perl 6: No, this is not a Perl 6 Deep Dive"
10:10 hejki "Perl6.WHAT"
10:10 * diakopter likes
10:10 diakopter "Perl6.HOW", and so forth, too
10:10 hejki ye
10:10 diakopter "Perl6.WHICH", even!
10:11 hejki "Perl6.ICANHASCHEEZBURGER - for advanced programmers"
10:11 carlin Nacreous Perl 6
10:11 diakopter "LOLPERL: formerly known as Perl 6"
10:11 carlin .oO( CLAZZ foo { HAZ $.bar; }... )
10:12 diakopter std: SEZ "O HAI, WORLD"
10:12 p6eval std 29343: Undeclared name:␤     'SEZ' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 106m␤
10:13 mberends ENEEDMOREGRAMMAR
10:13 carlin Pearlescent Perl 6
10:13 carlin LOLCAT found where correct English expected
10:14 diakopter "The Splendiferous Perl 6"  "Roundabout Perl 6"  "Approximating Perl 6"  "Approaching Perl 6"  "Designing Perl 6"  "Mutating Perl 6"
10:15 diakopter "Perl 6, ish"
10:15 hejki "Perl6-on-a-stick"
10:15 diakopter "Perl 6, or somesuch"
10:15 diakopter i kill me
10:15 Baggio_ joined #perl6
10:15 hejki "Perl6 - Schlumorp!"
10:15 * moritz_ misses a minimum of seriousness
10:17 mberends afk & # serious things
10:17 diakopter afk& # serious things like sleep
10:19 moritz_ now I scared them off :/
10:20 diakopter o hai from sleep
10:21 diakopter "Perl 6, Delivered"
10:21 diakopter "Perl 6, Just In Time"
10:22 diakopter "Perl 6, Again"
10:22 diakopter "Perl 6, Yes, Really"
10:23 diakopter "Perl 6, We Mean It This Time For Realz Srsly"
10:28 hejki "Perl 6, Funky and Fresh"
10:30 masak "Perl 6, Seriously!"
10:43 mathw "I HAZ A PERL 6"
10:43 masak it'll never make it past copy-editing. :P
10:44 masak apart from that, I like it. :)
10:44 wayland "Perl 6, and DNF -- well, one out of two"
10:45 masak "Perl 6 Using Your Hands"
10:45 masak "Dig into Perl 6"
10:45 carlin I was thinking Forever Perl 6
10:45 wayland76 The Perly Bird Get 6 worms
10:45 hejki :D
10:45 wayland76 ...and no butterflies
10:45 carlin Perl 6: Tales from the bikeshed
10:46 wayland76 carlin++ :)
10:46 masak :)
10:46 wayland76 'night all
10:46 mathw Well obviously, it's for the LOLSPEAK translation
10:47 hejki "Peeling Perl 6"
10:48 wayland76 Perl 6: Oh what a Peeling! :)
10:48 wayland76 afk &
10:50 carlin Trawling for Perl 6
10:51 hejki "Crawing Perl6"
10:51 hejki s/w/v/;
10:52 carlin Making a pun from pearl seems clever but also cliched
10:52 hejki same goes with Perlfect
10:52 hanekomu "Do They Know It's Perl6?"
10:57 carlin * Perl 6
10:57 carlin to go with Rakudo *
11:02 mathw do cilre roda la perlxas.
11:02 mathw Or something like that
11:03 mathw my Lojban is terrible
11:18 jnthn o/
11:19 mathw o/
11:19 masak o/
11:20 carlin o/
11:20 Infinoid o/
11:21 moritz_ \o
11:23 jnthn moritz++ # dares to be different :)
11:24 jnthn Friend who has been visiting for the weekend heads home later today...so will be back to hacking on Rakudo Stuff soon. :-)
11:25 mathw yay
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13:12 pmichaud "Perl 6:  It's not for everybody (yet)... but you're not everybody."
13:12 rodi joined #perl6
13:13 moritz_ A slightly long title for a book :-)
13:13 masak "Hugs and kisses from the #perl6 crew." :)
13:13 pmichaud ...maybe a tagline more than a book title, then.   Plus I stole it from the graduate studies program of the university I work at :)
13:14 mathw "Perl 6 for Adventuresome Types"
13:15 Wolfman2000 *yawn* Perl 6: The Revolution
13:15 Wolfman2000 I don't know
13:15 * Wolfman2000 just recently woke up
13:17 pmichaud as counterpoint to "Perl 6 for Dummies", perhaps we should do "Perl 6 for Cool and Smart People"
13:19 masak could be seen as slightly elitist, I dunno...
13:19 pmichaud "Perl 6: The Adventure Begins"
13:19 mathw elitist is unfashionable
13:19 masak rakudo: class A {}; multi sub cmp(A $a, A $b) { 1 }; say (A.new, A.new).sort
13:19 pmichaud "Perl 6 Tamed"
13:19 p6eval rakudo 7ef386:  ( no output )
13:19 masak locally, "Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'"
13:20 mathw "You have six onions"
13:20 * masak submits rakudobug
13:20 pmichaud "Perl 6:  Null PMC Access"
13:20 masak \o/
13:20 meppl joined #perl6
13:20 masak pmichaud: that one has my vote!
13:20 moritz_ pmichaud: but do we want to tame it?
13:22 pmichaud "Perl 6: Warp Speed"   (probably can't get the rights from Paramount)
13:23 pmichaud afk for a while... have lots of errands this morning :(
13:30 Su-Shee Rakudo and the six Perls
13:31 meppel joined #perl6
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13:36 masak std: for ^10 { break }
13:36 p6eval std 29343: ok 00:01 107m␤
13:36 masak TimToady: shouldn't that be a compile-time error?
13:37 masak Do I correctly assume that 'augment class' changes a class within the current module scope, whereas 'augment slang' changes a slang only lexically?
13:38 * moritz_ thought that 'augment' changes globally
13:39 Wolfman2000 I'll have to leave soon for winter break work. If there are any changes that need to be made to the (planned) last gift I have for the Advent Calendar, you have my permission to make them.
13:41 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 14: Going to the Rats http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/14/day-14-going-to-the-rats
13:41 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
13:41 masak moritz_: S02:2632
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13:43 moritz_ that doesn't seem to imply to me that the scope of 'augment' is limited to a package
13:43 masak what does it seem to imply, then?
13:43 masak it's "lexically scoped".
13:44 moritz_ augment slang, yes
13:44 masak yes.
13:44 moritz_ sorry
13:44 moritz_ I was not clear about that
13:44 moritz_ I thought 'augment class' was global, 'augment slang' lexical
13:45 masak moritz_: ok.
13:45 masak so 'augment class' is not a 'language tweak' a la S11?
13:45 masak but introducing operators is?
13:46 masak Wolfman2000: great post!
13:47 Wolfman2000 No obvious errors this time?
13:47 masak Wolfman2000: '♥', '♣', '♦', '♠' -- have you considered using <>?
13:47 masak same with the 'A', '2'... above that.
13:47 Wolfman2000 masak: ...right, should have remembered that. Good idea
13:47 masak that would solve the wrapping issue.
13:48 masak also, I personally prefer Card.new(:$rank, :$suit)
13:48 masak otherwise, I see no nits to .pick :)
13:48 Wolfman2000 rakudo: @suits = <♥, ♣, ♦, ♠>; say @suits.join(" ");
13:49 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Symbol '@suits' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/O39wFpA3Oh:2)␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
13:49 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @suits = <♥, ♣, ♦, ♠>; say @suits.join(" ");
13:49 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ♥, ♣, ♦, ♠␤
13:49 mepplock joined #perl6
13:49 Wolfman2000 ...derp
13:49 moritz_ Wolfman2000: don't use , inside <...>
13:49 moritz_ rakudo: my @suits = <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠>; say @suits.join("|");
13:49 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ♥|♣|♦|♠␤
13:49 moritz_ ng: my @suits = <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠>; say @suits.join("|");
13:49 Wolfman2000 my post is updated
13:49 p6eval ng 0307c2: ♥|♣|♦|♠␤
13:50 moritz_ Wolfman2000++
13:50 Wolfman2000 of course, I'm still surprised that this worked when I tested...
13:50 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @dice = 1 5 10 20 50 100 500; say @dice.pick(10, :replace).join(" ");
13:50 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "5 10 20 50"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
13:50 Wolfman2000 ...or I didn't copy it right
13:50 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @dice = <1 5 10 20 50 100 500>; say @dice.pick(10, :replace).join(" ");
13:50 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 500 20 20 500 10 20 1 1 500 10␤
13:52 Wolfman2000 alright, everything should be good from what I can tell. I can't guarantee I'll be here when the code is made public
13:52 Wolfman2000 Still, hopefully my lack of working directly with the building of Perl 6 wasn't a hindrance.
13:53 moritz_ don't worry, if something goes awefully wrong somebody else will fix it :-)
13:53 Wolfman2000 *nods*
13:53 mathw oh, moritz_, thanks for answering that question on my Junctions post
13:53 mathw I was offline most of yesterday
13:53 moritz_ mathw: you're welcome
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15:11 takadonet morning all
15:12 masak o/
15:13 perlygatekeeper joined #perl6
15:13 takadonet masak: how are you?
15:14 masak takadonet: tired but happy.
15:14 masak takadonet: how are you?
15:14 takadonet masak: busy and want to hack on bioperl6
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16:52 masak my computer crashed.
16:53 jeremiah yuck
16:53 TimToady that seems...suboptimal...
16:53 masak once again, it is an innocent victim of my Firefox tabs.
16:53 jeremiah All ten thousand?
16:53 TimToady but did it crash *fast*?
16:53 masak more like 2.5k.
16:53 jeremiah Which tab was the culprit?
16:53 PerlJam masak: http://www.google.com/chrome  :-)
16:53 phenny PerlJam: 12 Dec 02:41Z <carlin> tell PerlJam there's a copy of your Benchmark.pm in perl6-examples lib and in its own repo, which causes problems for proto. Would you mind removing or renaming the perl6-examples copy?
16:53 masak PerlJam: :)
16:53 jeremiah Wow - you must have been reading a lot to get down to 2.5K
16:54 masak jeremiah: yes, and irreversible crashes brought it down a bit, too.
16:54 jeremiah :(
16:54 masak bah. win some, lose some :)
16:54 moritz_ masak: maybe you should just put less in your reading queue
16:54 payload joined #perl6
16:54 masak moritz_: but there are so many worthwhile and interesting things!
16:55 diakopter masak: how many of those open tabs are duplicates? :)
16:55 masak diakopter: some. not more than 0.5%.
16:55 moritz_ masak: but they are only interesting and worthwile if you actually get around to read them...
16:55 masak moritz_: well, I do. eventually.
16:55 jeremiah What about all the tabs that you don't even know about yet?
16:55 TimToady you sure you're not looking for "worthwhile OR interesting"?  :P
16:55 moritz_ unless firefox crashes
16:55 masak jeremiah: whoa.
16:56 masak moritz_: firefox is good at bringing itself up with the tabs intact.
16:56 jeremiah Chrome does that too - but puts them in history
16:56 masak moritz_: as long as I unplug the ethernet cord while it tries to load them all in... :)
16:56 diakopter lol.
16:56 masak jeremiah: interesting. how does that work?
16:56 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
16:57 jeremiah So you have to click on a link to restore all your tabs
16:57 jeremiah Which is nice because it avoids the firefox behavior
16:57 jeremiah Which seems to be affecting your computer
16:58 masak jeremiah: only once every month or so.
16:58 jeremiah aha
16:59 _jaldhar joined #perl6
16:59 diakopter survey: if you were looking for an open-source/free-software garbage-collecting multi-stage/meta-programming multi-platform VM/compiler, which would you choose, and why?
17:00 moritz_ I'd ask diakopter :-)
17:00 jeremiah parrot - because it is the only one that fits that criteria
17:00 diakopter cheat answer :P
17:00 jeremiah ?
17:00 PerlJam jeremiah: uh ... no it doesn't.
17:00 jeremiah :)
17:00 PerlJam :)
17:00 jeremiah I was just guessing - I thought it was a trick question
17:00 diakopter you got that right
17:01 moritz_ probably depends on what you mean by "meta-programming"
17:01 PerlJam jeremiah: parrot would be my answer too  (but only because I haven't looked at any other VMs)
17:01 diakopter runtime codegen in-process/in-memory
17:01 diakopter that can be invoked on the same working set
17:02 mberends Perl 5?
17:02 mberends you didn't say multi-language :P
17:03 diakopter yeah, but any interpreter can be multi-language
17:03 diakopter :P
17:03 moritz_ Perl 5 is a very bad assembler language :-)
17:03 diakopter PerlJam: how doesn't parrot fit the criteria?
17:04 moritz_ parrot has garbage collection, but at times it's less-than-awesome
17:04 diakopter oh
17:05 PerlJam diakopter: I was being overly critical.  If you twiddle the knob  that says how successful parrot is at each of those criteria then parrot fits perfectly.
17:05 masak moritz_: parrot has speed, but at times it's less-than-awesome :)
17:06 TimToady parrot has *, but at time it's LTA. :)
17:06 TimToady *times
17:07 masak if Parrot has *, then it must be a perfect platform for Rakudo *.
17:08 TimToady I wonder if break would be easier to implement if we made it a statement_prefix...
17:08 diakopter V8 would fit the criteria, except it's not really a compiler stand-alone.  it doesn't have a bytecode/IR to which it can persist/read.  to persist state you have to build your script into an executable that links into libv8 using g++
17:08 masak swim &
17:09 * TimToady pictures masak testing a rock while swimming...
17:09 TimToady "yep, that one sinks fast!"
17:09 TimToady "I'd better let go of it..."
17:10 diakopter "we must be in the dead sea, b/c rocks float"
17:11 TimToady silly masak, you're testing pumice!
17:11 diakopter any other answers for my survey?
17:11 arnsholt I'm not at all familiar with the field, but the alternatives are more or less Parrot, JVM and CLR, no?
17:12 moritz_ mono
17:12 TimToady s/CLR/mono/ if you want FOSS
17:12 moritz_ you can look also in LLVM
17:12 Astoria` joined #perl6
17:12 moritz_ s/in/at/
17:12 arnsholt Yeah, I'm not familiar with the terminology, but yeah the .Net VM thing
17:13 TimToady you could put it on top of Haskell...
17:13 arnsholt moritz_: Good point
17:13 mberends diakopter: since V8 is open source C++, could persisting the IR be added?
17:13 arnsholt TimToady: In that case you could add any Turing-complete language, no?
17:13 TimToady that was my next point
17:14 arnsholt Oh, right
17:14 arnsholt Ignore my last then
17:14 diakopter mberends: yes, but there's no IR at all.  JS source directly to machine code that runs upon loading.  You'd have to bundle a g++ too
17:14 TimToady but Haskell turns most of those knobs pretty high
17:15 arnsholt Haskell is very cool indeed
17:15 moritz_ ... out of my reach
17:15 TimToady in spots
17:15 arnsholt moritz_: Same here. I've not managed to put in enough effort to really learn how to use it properly
17:16 diakopter new criterion: that doesn't require being able to write in Haskell, the Language of the Gods
17:16 TimToady does writing in pugs count?
17:16 diakopter :P
17:16 PerlJam I thought Perl 6 was the language of the gods?
17:16 moritz_ PerlJam: depends on the gods, really :-)
17:17 diakopter (kidding on the new criterion)
17:17 TimToady hemidemisemigods
17:17 takadonet http://xkcd.com/224/
17:17 PerlJam takadonet: exactly!
17:17 diakopter takadonet: oh yeah :D
17:21 diakopter re JVM runtime codegen/loading, how do folks do that?
17:26 arnsholt Re: Loading, that's handled by methods in java.lang.ClassLoader, AFAICT
17:26 arnsholt As for compiling, I think you need either a compiler (if you want to compile at runtime, like JSP does) or a library that gives you a sane interface to the assembler language
17:28 arnsholt I don't think you have a byte code generation lib in the standard library, like C# has (from what I understand)
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17:31 diakopter for .net/clr, there's an MIT-licensed addon library http://runsharp.googlecode.com that wraps even System.Reflection.Emit... it's what I've been experimenting with lately
17:32 diakopter clr/mono, I mean (I've been using mono)
17:33 diakopter for jvm, looks like http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/ is a good tool
17:34 arnsholt Right
17:40 diakopter (specifically, the gnu.bytecode included in kawa)
17:41 obra TimToady: ping? I recall in some writing of yours, you've stated that one of your biggest regrets about p5 is that 'use strict' isnt' the default. Am I on crack? Can you think of a convenient citation?
17:41 mberends diakopter: did you need answers, or were you just teasing us to see if we also know what you already know?
17:42 TimToady I don't think I ever said that about P5, except insofar as P6 does it differently
17:42 obra ok
17:42 TimToady I maintained for many years that was good for people to pick righteousness explicitly  :)
17:42 TimToady *that it
17:43 * obra nods.
17:43 TimToady but p6 has enough new righteousnes to pick explicitly already :)
17:43 diakopter mberends: both
17:44 obra I'm in the midst of a discussion about p5 policy and "upgrading" the defaults on users in a newer release of Perl 5, such that code that previously worked needs a "use foo" statement to make it keep working.
17:44 PerlJam TimToady: Are you sure you don't want to herd people towards righteousness with a sword?  That's been used with great success in the past.   ;->
17:44 obra That...makes me sad.
17:45 diakopter the discussion makes you sad, or the proposed "upgrading" policy?
17:46 obra diakopter: actually, the arguments against my "we should do everything we can to make sure old code keeps working" policy :)
17:48 mberends it depends what kind of damage results from breaking the old code
17:49 obra mberends: you mean whether they come after us with pitchforks or with knives?
17:49 TimToady .oO(It's the End of the World as we Know It, and I feel fine...)
17:49 * obra grins at TimToady
17:50 mberends heh, perhaps just the cost and time to rewrite the old bad bits
17:50 TimToady "Hi, I see that you have a bad bit at line 42; rewriting it for you..."
17:50 diakopter yeah. unfortunately, I'm in agreement with you. The Slippery Slope mindset is what maintainers must by necessity listen to: "if they're introducting [backward-compatability-breaking-change X] now, that basically means perl is no longer supported."  Otoh, I agree fully with the argument that the systems that have the "old" code will almost never be upgraded anyway, ever...  But it's a branding/marketing issue, unfortunately (for those who want to improve
17:51 obra TimToady: That would be a lovely solution
17:51 TimToady well, except for the little matter of write access :)
17:51 arnsholt Isn't there also precedent for keeping backwards compatibility?
17:52 TimToady P5 specializes in keeping; P6 specializes in breaking it.  :)
17:52 TimToady *keeping it
17:54 obra diakopter: I have people installing
17:55 obra software I wrote in 1997 on modern machines running RedHat Enterprise 5.3 with Perl 5.10
17:55 obra and it all works just fine :)
17:55 obra TimToady: I could see a runtime rewrite and a "recompiled code cache"
17:56 diakopter obra: I hope I was clear that I thought it was a branding issue (that backward compatibility must be maintained)
17:56 obra Nod
17:57 diakopter but from where are they obtaining the 1997 software?  CD-ROMs?  or cpan?  or another website?
17:57 mberends the cost of backward compatibility accumulates over time; one solution is to sneak reporting instrumentation into the old infrastructure, using its trace logs to gradually eradicate/replace the undesired parts.
17:58 obra diakopter: upgrading existing systems.
17:59 diakopter oh... you said installing.
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17:59 obra new system. new copy of the same code they were already running. on a new Perl with deps from cpan, etc.
18:01 diakopter I hope that's a paid support contract :) b/c I wouldn't want to have to worry about that otherwise; newer deps from cpan break compatibility (often unintended) often..
18:02 * obra shrugs
18:03 obra I still don't want to screw over end users.
18:03 diakopter still, I don't see why both modes can't be supported going forward...? a local/site flag?
18:03 obra Hurting people makes them not like you.
18:03 obra diakopter: the issue is entirely one of "what does perl do without you Explicitly saying you want a certain behavior"
18:03 diakopter (with the backward-compat mode still the default)
18:03 obra right. your parenthetical expression is the topic of the debate.
18:04 diakopter I'm referring to a system-wide default
18:04 moritz_ I've been submitting patches for dev.perl.org/perl6/ for a while, and now the question has come up if we should remove links to pugscode.org there
18:05 moritz_ quick poll: [A] leave as is [B] remove most, but not all [C] remove them all
18:05 mberends B
18:05 * moritz_ votes for B, but would love to hear other opinions too
18:05 mberends moritz_: it's ok, two makes a quorum ;)
18:06 diakopter B
18:06 diakopter (but first, I see only one link there anyway...)
18:07 obra diakopter: right. Should the systemwide default be the new "better" behavior or the behavior that existed before we "fixed" it?
18:07 moritz_ some have been removed already, some are hidden on subpages
18:07 diakopter incl the subpages
18:07 diakopter there's one at the bottom of the FAQ
18:08 diakopter actually, no, it's not even a hyperlink
18:08 diakopter <a name="http://www.pugscode.org/"
18:09 diakopter and then the 1 actual link on the Status page
18:10 diakopter architecture.html definitely needs mothballed
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18:11 diakopter the copy on status.html needs lots of tense changes
18:12 diakopter "Internals" on status.html needs rewording/rewritten
18:12 moritz_ if anybody wants to help, the sources can be obtained with   svn co https://svn.perl.org/perl.org/docs/live/dev
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18:16 diakopter which pugscode link was proposed to remove?
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18:20 moritz_ Leo asked if we should remove them all
18:21 diakopter does he want all the parrot links removed too?
18:21 moritz_ nope
18:21 moritz_ let me give you a bit more context
18:22 moritz_ somewhere on one of the pages it said "for latest news re perl6, visist [...] www.pugscode.org"
18:22 moritz_ a patch of mine removes that, reasoning that there haven't been any news on pugscode.org for years
18:22 moritz_ so he asked if we should remove all links to pugscode.org
18:23 diakopter ok, but I don't see that anywhere in the svn checkout
18:23 diakopter your patch was already committed?
18:23 moritz_ index.html, perl6/status.html, perl6/faq.pod
18:24 moritz_ diakopter: don't know, I sent two patches, one was applied already, the other not
18:24 moritz_ and right now I have no overview what was in which patch
18:24 diakopter on the live site (and in svn) there is just the 1 link to pugscode, and then the other fake link on FAQ
18:25 cotto_work joined #perl6
18:25 moritz_ I see two links in svn
18:25 moritz_ index.html
18:25 moritz_ 51:  <td><font size="+2"><a href="http://www.pugscode.org/">Pugs</a></font></td
18:25 moritz_ perl6/status.html
18:25 moritz_ 46:<a href="http://www.pugscode.org/">Pugs</a> - an experimental implementation of Perl 6. Run Perl 6 today!
18:26 diakopter ok
18:26 diakopter why would Leo want to remove the Pugs links but not the Parrot links?
18:27 moritz_ probably because I told him it contains no news
18:27 cdarroch joined #perl6
18:27 moritz_ anyway, Leo asked, I'll answer that not all links should be removed
18:30 coke apparently not. bother.
18:30 coke ww
18:33 diakopter moritz_: how shall I submit patches for the site?
18:36 moritz_ diakopter: subscribe at http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/perl-org-patches
18:36 moritz_ and maybe look at http://lists.scsys.co.uk/pipermail/perl-org-patches/2009-December/thread.html for my first two patches
18:40 rgrau` joined #perl6
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19:02 IllvilJa If I want to handle YAML docs in rakudo perl6, what are my best options?  Is it already built into the language, is it a core library already included or should I install some Perl6 module from github or elsewhere?
19:04 moritz_ you should first write a YAML library, and then use it
19:12 PerlJam Didn't someone code a small YAML lib in Perl 6 already?
19:20 moritz_ I'm not aware of that
19:20 moritz_ only of JSON
19:21 KeithWolters joined #perl6
19:23 PerlJam Maybe I'm thinking of the JSON one then  (they tend to occupy the same locality in my brain)
19:24 moritz_ when you try to implement them, you'll notice very soon that they are very different beasts :-)
19:25 PerlJam aye, they're used in similar contexts which is why they're close in my brain.
19:27 moritz_ me attempts to teach people that data serialization languages and data exchange languages fill different niches don't seem to very effective
19:27 PerlJam heh
19:28 PerlJam It doesn't matter what niche they were designed for or are most useful for; people will use them however they please.
19:30 moritz_ aye
19:33 thowe joined #perl6
19:33 thowe Hello.
19:33 moritz_ hi thowe
19:39 Su-Shee JSON is YAML, btw.
19:40 moritz_ JSON is a tiny, well-defined subset of the huge multiverse of YAML
19:54 diakopter does anyone know whether either/both of the last two State of the Onion talks (video, audio, transcript/slides) are available online (or offline!) anywhere???
19:54 diakopter I'll keep asking every week until someone who knows replies... ;)
19:57 IllvilJa moritz_: PerlJam: I assume then that the currently available JSON implementation in Perl6 is the most "whippitupitudical" approach to get some basic management of structured data on storage as well as interchanged between processes [potentially via a storage media ;-) ].
19:58 moritz_ IllvilJa: right. It's just limited to numbers, booleans, undef, arrays and hashes
19:59 IllvilJa moritz_: JSON should do then.  I'm actually quite accustomed to XML, but I don't know how well THAT beast is supported in Perl6.
20:00 IllvilJa XML is a heavyweight monster that actually cooperates with me.
20:01 moritz_ there's an XML grammar somewhere on github, but to be fair proper XML support consists of far more than just a grammar
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20:04 mberends IllvilJa: the reference to YAML that you recall is probably about proto, which uses a teeny subset of the format in a very limited way
20:05 mberends and that subset is not the same subset as JSON :(
20:07 vamped rakudo: my @a = 10 ... * +1,20; @a.perl.say
20:07 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20]␤
20:07 vamped rakudo: my @a = 1.0 ... * +.1,2.0; @a.perl.say
20:07 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9]␤
20:08 vamped anyone know why there is a difference here, above: ?
20:08 moritz_ vamped: probably floating point/rounding errors
20:08 colomon presume it's the good old... what moritz said.
20:09 moritz_ rakudo: my @a = 1.0 ... * + 1/10 , 2.0; @a.perl.say
20:09 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9]␤
20:09 colomon rakudo: my @a = 1 ... * + 1/10, 2; @a.perl.say
20:09 Tene rakudo: my @a = 1.0 ... * +.1,2.001; @a.perl.say
20:09 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Multiple Dispatch: No suitable candidate found for 'cmp', with signature 'PP->I'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:09 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, 2]␤
20:09 moritz_ that did it
20:09 colomon that was Tene's I think.
20:09 colomon series operator hates me.  :)
20:09 vamped I was thinking that was a possibility, but ideally I would expect it to work as it was.
20:10 moritz_ vamped: it will, in a few months
20:10 moritz_ vamped: we have a branch where 1.0 and 0.1 are Rats too
20:10 colomon vamped: floating point numbers just don't work that way.
20:10 vamped ok. cool. speaking of ng?
20:10 moritz_ it just needs a lot of other things being worked on before we can merge it
20:10 moritz_ vamped: yes
20:10 diakopter ng: my @a = 1.0 ... * +.1,2.0; @a.perl.say
20:10 p6eval ng 0307c2: too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11596 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:142)␤
20:11 colomon though actually, it seems to me that series operator ought to include its last argument in the list always, no matter what?
20:11 colomon diakopter: that's NYI in ng.
20:11 colomon if you're bored, you're welcome to implement it.  :)
20:11 vamped and do I understand correctly that ng will probably not be merged by this month's release?
20:11 moritz_ colomon: yes, but if the accumulated value is larger than the limit, it won't be included
20:12 moritz_ vamped: pmichaud hasn't decided finally on that (afaik), but I think it's highly unlikely
20:12 moritz_ heck, we don't even have working hashes or ranges in ng
20:12 colomon to make it reasonable, ng would have to pass about 30,000 more tests in the next two days.
20:12 PerlJam colomon: it could happen  :)
20:13 diakopter I thought LTM in nqp-rx was the holdup
20:13 diakopter the next big thing, I mean
20:13 Tene there are some things blocking on lists API refactor.
20:13 moritz_ diakopter: that's postponed for when it's actually needed
20:14 colomon no hashes, can't pass by array, lists don't really work, ranges don't work, no list assignment...
20:15 PerlJam colomon: I've known pmichaud to not sleep for really long periods of time ... it could still happen  :)
20:16 colomon PerlJam: I can maybe believe he could take care of all the big blockers, but that still leaves rebuilding the core (aka setting) and I don't think you can run spectest fast enough to make all the needed changes in 48 hours.  :)
20:17 RichiH hmm, today's advent calendar does not go into details about what causes `say pi.Rat` and `say pi` to print different values
20:17 PerlJam I'm going to continue to wear my optimist hat this week regardless.
20:22 colomon RichiH: it's implied, sorry.
20:23 colomon basically, if you say pi.Rat, what you get is an approximation of pi as a Rat which is accurate to 1e-6 (I think).
20:23 RichiH colomon: well, because one is Rat and the other one a mere Num
20:23 colomon so the first six digits or so of pi.Rat and pi should match, and then they will diverge.
20:23 RichiH but i would have thought that pi is stored in a way that yields the same result in both contexts
20:24 colomon I guess the quick answer is, it definitely isn't.
20:24 vamped rakudo: say pi.Rat.perl
20:24 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 355/113␤
20:24 colomon in master, pi is a Num.
20:25 colomon as spec'd and in ng, pi will be a Rat.
20:25 colomon (At least, I think the spec implies pi is a Rat.)
20:25 colomon I guess once pi is a Rat, then pi.Rat will exactly equal pi.  :)
20:26 colomon (though pi isn't defined at all in ng yet.)
20:26 vamped rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-14).perl
20:26 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 80143857/25510582␤
20:27 colomon yeah, that might do it for accuracy.
20:27 colomon rakudo: say pi.Rat(1e-14)
20:27 vamped RichiH: I think that part of the post explains it. Yes?
20:27 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 3.14159265358979␤
20:27 colomon rakudo: say pi;
20:27 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 3.14159265358979␤
20:28 sjohnson rakudo:  my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a { $_ = 'x' }; say @a.perl
20:28 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ["x", "x", "x"]␤
20:28 vamped RichiH: Rat defaults to 1e-6
20:28 RichiH vamped: hmm, true
20:29 sjohnson what is the best way to avoid "writing back" to the @ var?  anyone?  :]
20:30 vamped is very excited about decimal numbers being represtented as Rats
20:30 moritz_ sjohnson: use an explicit signature
20:30 moritz_ rakudo:  my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a -> $a { $a = 'x' }; say @a.perl
20:30 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:32 sjohnson hmm
20:32 sjohnson moritz_: is this new to p6?
20:33 moritz_ sjohnson: yes
20:34 sjohnson moritz_: the p5 way is just doing $tmp = $_ i suppose
20:36 sjohnson that is kinda cool though
20:36 sjohnson moritz_: what about (in p6) if you wanted to actaully do the modifications i did, but not "write back" to the foreach array?
20:37 sjohnson but just change in side the { } scope willy nilly
20:41 sjohnson i suppose $tmp = $_ is the only way in P6 too?
20:41 moritz_ no
20:41 moritz_ 'is copy
20:41 moritz_ rakudo:  my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a -> $a is copy { $a = 'x' }; say @a.perl
20:41 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ["1", "2", "3"]␤
20:43 dakkar joined #perl6
20:43 sjohnson wow, this is pretty cool
20:43 sjohnson moritz_++
20:44 moritz_ not my idea :-)
20:45 sjohnson always ++ the messenger is my P6 motto
20:45 sjohnson looks like i really can't think up any good ideas that haven't already been done to p6
20:49 coke joined #perl6
20:49 sjohnson moritz_: is there a safe and proper way, to "is copy", and use the $_ var without too much extra writing?
20:49 sjohnson will just "is copy" be safe + smart?
20:50 moritz_ $_ is copy  works
20:52 sjohnson rakudo:  my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a is copy { s/./x; }; say @a.perl
20:52 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "is copy { "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:52 sjohnson rakudo:  my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a $_ is copy { s/./x = 'x' }; say @a.perl
20:53 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "$_ is copy"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:53 sjohnson rakudo:  my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a {$_ is copy} { s/./x = 'x' }; say @a.perl
20:53 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "is copy} {"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
20:53 vamped sjohnson: for @a -> $_ is copy {...}
20:55 sjohnson is it impossible to implement an for @a is copy syntax?
20:55 sjohnson to omit writing $_ if it's $_ ?
20:55 moritz_ the question is not if it's impossible
20:55 moritz_ but if it's really worth the trouble
20:57 vamped maybe a .copy method should be invented, so: for @a.copy {...}
20:57 colomon std: my @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a is copy { s/./x; }; say @a.perl
20:57 p6eval std 29343: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Missing block at /tmp/MwjdXT7nB4 line 1:␤------> [32mmy @a = <1 2 3>;  for @a [33m⏏[31mis copy { s/./x; }; say @a.perl[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    parameterized block␤      standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED
20:57 p6eval ..00:01 110m␤
20:58 sjohnson it is kind of cool when you can omit the $_ ... but that's just me i guess
20:58 coke is .panic a standard thing, or only NQP?
21:00 moritz_ STD.pm uses that too
21:00 moritz_ so it's quasi standard
21:02 diakopter I think panic is in the synopses somewheres
21:03 diakopter oh wait, or mabye it was removed
21:04 coke is this legal? http://nopaste.snit.ch/19081
21:05 coke if I try to put a variable in the .panic, I get an error during compilation about the angle bracket.
21:05 diakopter what does ** mean there
21:05 moritz_ separated by
21:06 moritz_ coke: I think it should work, but maybe it's an nqp limitation
21:06 diakopter I knew that, last week :)
21:06 coke moritz_: any suggestions on alternate spellings that might work? =-)
21:08 moritz_ coke: if interpolation doesn't work either... no idea
21:09 coke is "$<error>" the right way to spell that?
21:09 coke (that didn't work either.)
21:09 moritz_ it is
21:09 coke I can only get literal strings to work. (but comma separating /them/ works fine.)
21:10 coke with "$<extra>", it compiles, but then doesn't actually interpolate at runtime.
21:10 * coke finds the nqp-rx wishlist...
21:15 riffraff joined #perl6
21:17 jferrero joined #perl6
21:17 coke moritz_: added to http://wiki.github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/requests, danke.
21:18 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
21:27 vamped to install Rakudo on a computer (Ubuntu) without an internet connection, can I install on another computer (Ubuntu) and copy directory tree over? Are there any limitations to this method?
21:27 moritz_ vamped: if it's the same architecture (i386 vs. amd64) it should work
21:28 wayland76 Are they the same version of Ubuntu?  That helps too.
21:28 wayland76 Packaging systems do essentially what you're talking about
21:28 vamped will be the same version of Ubuntu. I don't know now if the other computer is same architecture.
21:28 wayland76 We can't guarantee it will work, but it's got a good chance
21:29 [particle] there are parrot packages for debian
21:29 [particle] are there rakudo packages for debian yet?
21:29 wayland76 vamped: It's also possible to just download the debian .deb file, and then use "dpkg -i <packagefile>"
21:30 moritz_ [particle]: in experimental, I think
21:32 vamped wayland76: there's a rakudo deb? where?
21:34 moritz_ http://packages.debian.org/rakudo
21:34 moritz_ 2009-09 - ancient already :-)
21:35 vamped :( I think I'll just try copying directory tree (if it's same arch, otherwise ??)
21:35 moritz_ otherwise: rsync or copy rakudo and parrot tree over, and build from source
21:36 moritz_ instead of using --gen-parrot, you can also
21:36 moritz_ cd parrot/; perl Configure --prefix=$path_to_rakudo/parrot_install; make install
21:36 moritz_ cd ..
21:36 moritz_ perl Configure.pl
21:36 moritz_ make install
21:36 vamped vielen Dank, moritz.
21:37 moritz_ bitteschön :-)
21:48 Intensity joined #perl6
21:49 meppel joined #perl6
21:55 * coke cries, as the machine that he had unicode all setup on is now dead, so he's stuck with ?'s again. =-)
21:56 moritz_ coke: http://perlgeek.de/en/article/set-up-a-clean-utf8-environment unfinished and unreviewd, but maybe still of help
21:56 diakopter coke: ?? ? ???? ?????? ?
21:56 diakopter (kidding)  afk&
21:58 coke moritz_: eh. I'll focus energies on resurrecting the dead machine.
21:59 coke but keep that for future reference, thank you!
21:59 coke but *will keep...
22:03 wayland76 I don't know that there is one.  I guess I just assumed there was
22:03 wayland76 vamped: ^^
22:03 mepplock joined #perl6
22:04 wayland76 Coke: Þát´s ñó góød
22:04 wayland76 (Sorry :) )
22:05 moritz_ the IRC logs show such characters usually correctly, so if he's *really* curious he just needs a working browser
22:06 Tene I guess I've just been spoiled by fedora...
22:06 vamped wayland76: tháńks änÿwæy
22:07 wayland76 Well, but if the browser doesn't support unicode either... :)
22:08 wayland76 Oh, and s/Þat/Ðat/, sorry :)
22:09 vamped @Tene: I'm too spoiled by Ubuntu to go back to Fedora ;)  -- but that's a topic for another forum :D
22:09 wayland76 I'd argue that all the packaging systems are rubbish :)
22:11 moritz_ if you don't want downgrades, dpkg/apt is great :-)
22:15 wayland76 I want a packaging system that works on every OS, so that my perl programs can be packaged once, run anywhere
22:16 wayland76 I want a packaging system that can be relied upon by other software; mozilla plugins?  Use a package.  <other software> plugins?  Use a package.  These pieces of software should just be able to call upon a library function to generate themselves a plugin manager
22:16 moritz_ if you write one, I'll test it for you :-)
22:17 moritz_ aye, plugin systems have been reinvented far too many times
22:17 diakopter the cpan client needs a special mode where it detects being run as root, and detects whether it's set to use the system package systems, and (if possible) builds/installs packages for the distributions it's requested to install/upgrade
22:17 diakopter dpkg/yast/yum/pkgadd
22:17 diakopter port on macs
22:17 moritz_ automatically shelling out to CPANPLUS::Dist::*
22:18 pmurias joined #perl6
22:18 wayland76 Oh, yeah, I also want it modular; specifically, I want to be able to replace/modify the algorithm that chooses which packages to install
22:19 BinGOs I use pkgsrc on Darwin, good luck forcing me to use ports
22:19 moritz_ but I guess it'll work the other way round in the end
22:19 pmurias diakopter: re looking for a vm what are you planning to implement?
22:19 diakopter BinGOs: (or whatever)
22:19 moritz_ large applications will ship as VMs
22:19 moritz_ erm, VM images
22:19 wayland76 Do I want to delay my software packages a week behind the releases?  Can be done.  Do I want to make one of my repos take priority over another, even if there's a more recent version?  Can be done :)
22:19 BinGOs edge-cases are going to burn.
22:19 moritz_ and maintain their own environment
22:20 wayland76 Oh, yeah, did I say I also want to support both source and binary distros? :)
22:20 moritz_ and world domination, too!
22:20 diakopter wayland76: well yeah :P
22:20 wayland76 Well, *of course* world domination :)
22:21 diakopter integration of usually-bundled C lib dependencies would be nice too
22:21 diakopter while we're dreaming...
22:22 wayland76 diakopter: I don't understand
22:22 wayland76 integration of C lib dependencies with what?
22:23 wayland76 with the C lib dependencies of other packages?
22:23 moritz_ XML::LibXML depends on libxml-2.0
22:23 diakopter exactly
22:23 diakopter (what moritz_ said)
22:23 moritz_ -dev, of course :-)
22:23 wayland76 But are you saying you want to bundle libxml-2.0 into the same package?
22:25 diakopter I'm saying it would be nice if a distribution that depended on libxml-2.0 could tell cpan to use the system libxml-2.0 if available, to optionally install a system libxml-2.0 if available, and to optionally fallback to building/installing a bundled libxml-2.0 .tar.gz (optionally with custom patches & install destination)
22:25 moritz_ for me declaring the dependency would be enough
22:26 patspam joined #perl6
22:27 pmurias diakopter: bunlding a C lib is not very elegant
22:27 pmurias * bundling
22:27 diakopter yeah, but plenty do it
22:27 diakopter (already)
22:27 diakopter I'm trying to provide other options
22:27 moritz_ more elegant than dying with an error message that only geeks understand, if at all
22:29 pmurias but installing the appropriate package via the package manager would be great
22:32 slavik will parrot have a configurable library loader?
22:33 vamped left #perl6
22:36 diakopter slavik: there's this  http://github.com/quietfanatic/link-c
22:37 slavik diakopter: something like that
22:37 alfieANDfred joined #perl6
22:37 slavik so that it would be possible to define the loading policy and libraries
22:38 slavik basically, parrot should be able to do what the jvm can do, but not use java as the language
22:39 wayland76 My idea is that CPAN should simply be another repository that declares dependencies, just like anything else.
22:39 diakopter moritz_: I agree with what you said about large applications..
22:42 pmichaud Right now I'm leaning towards not merging ng for the release
22:42 pmichaud I'd rather do good work over time than rush to get things in
22:42 PerlJam pmichaud++
22:43 moritz_ sounds sensible
22:43 diakopter is LTM still planned for nqp-rx?
22:43 pmichaud planned, yes, but how much we do depends more on what we need for Rakudo *
22:43 diakopter oh
22:44 wayland76 pmichaud: Didn't I say something about February for LTM? :)
22:44 pmichaud wayland76: you probably did.  If there's a LTM feature that I find we absolutely have to have for Rakudo*, I'll undoubtedly expedite it
22:45 pmichaud right now my focus is more on getting ng landed and making sure we're covering the items in the ROADMAP
22:45 am0c joined #perl6
22:47 wayland76 Yeah, I did.  You were saying that it would be done by the end of Summer 2009.  I said February 2010 :)
22:47 pmichaud well, I have sufficient LTM for us to get protoregexes working
22:47 PerlJam wayland76: So ... which christmas will Perl 6 be "released"?
22:47 pmichaud PerlJam: 2008
22:48 wayland76 I can't tell until pmichaud makes a prediction.  Then I'll double that :)
22:48 * PerlJam tries to tap into wayland76's clear psychic abilities
22:48 PerlJam wayland76: so, christmas 4016?  :)
22:48 wayland76 sufficient LTM for protoregexes counts as something
22:49 wayland76 Ok, what I really mean is (wayland76 predicted time) = (pmichaud's predicted time) - (date of prediction)
22:49 wayland76 whoops
22:49 wayland76 Ok, what I really mean is (wayland76 predicted time) = [ (pmichaud's predicted time) - (date of prediction) ] * 2 + (date of prediction)
22:50 wayland76 sufficient LTM for protoregexes counts for a lot, I meant.  pmichaud++
22:51 wayland76 pmichaud: Are you meaning that -ng should be merged after the December release?
22:59 pmichaud wayland76: I'm simply meaning it likely won't happen before
23:02 moritz_ in git, how can I find the point where two branches were... well, branched?
23:02 moritz_ or the first differing commit, or so
23:02 PerlJam moritz_: git merge-base A B
23:03 moritz_ PerlJam: thanks
23:03 PerlJam moritz_: try git merge-base master ng # for instance
23:03 PerlJam or you can use SHA1s
23:19 moritz_ I looked in rakudo master if there's anything worth cherry-picking to ng
23:19 moritz_ didn't find anything really
23:20 moritz_ most commits in master were made to the setting
23:20 moritz_ and despite all its smartness, git doesn't seem to like to cherry-pick patches to renamed files
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