Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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00:04 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 15: .pick your game': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/15/day-15-pick-your-game/
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01:32 M8YCjC56g testing testing 1 2 3
01:32 M8YCjC56g <sigh
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01:32 diakopter testing testing 1 2 3
01:34 diakopter looking at http://github.com/rakudo/rakud​o/commits/master/docs/ROADMAP
01:34 diakopter since pmichaud reminded me it's the object of focus
01:34 diakopter or http://github.com/rakudo/rak​udo/commits/ng/docs/ROADMAP
01:35 diakopter many of the large-scale task descriptions could use more updates, imho (that I don't know enough to add)
01:35 diakopter since it was dated Aug 09 and said it was for the following 4-6 months (through Dec or Feb)
01:36 colomon I was just wondering if it would help if some of us low-level ng developers made a list of things that are blocking us at the moment.
01:36 diakopter status/expectations updates, I guess I mean
01:37 pmichaud diakopter: +1
01:37 colomon I don't know how many tuits I'll have during the holidays, but as things currently stand, it's really not worth trying to hack on ng.  Just too many holes...
01:37 TimToady you should read the backlog of #parrotsketch over the weekend too
01:37 pmichaud well, it's worth hacking on ng if you fit the particular flavor of cheese at the moment :)
01:39 TimToady .oO(a Swiss Army Cheese)
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01:46 colomon sorry, didn't mean to get complain-y there.
01:47 pmichaud no problem :)
01:47 pmichaud I'm sure it's frustrating from where you're sitting, and justifiably so.
01:48 colomon Just thinking that if array arguments, lazy iterators, and list assignment were in place, there would be a plethora of eminently hackable core things.
01:48 pmichaud array arguments shouldn't be a blocker.
01:48 pmichaud just use a scalar for now.
01:48 colomon but I'm sure we all have our own list like that.  :)
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01:48 colomon Is that sane?
01:49 pmichaud you can certainly do
01:49 pmichaud sub foo($a) {
01:49 colomon I mean, it's sort of cheating....
01:49 pmichaud well, I don't know how soon roles will land
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01:49 colomon On the other hand, given permission to cheat....
01:49 pmichaud actually, perhaps I'll go the other way (more)
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01:50 pmichaud currently the problem is that we don't have a Positional role that can be used for the binding check.  perhaps I'll just disable the binding check.
01:50 TimToady sometimes bootstrapping requires extra circularity saws
01:50 pmichaud that way one can write the correct p6 code, and we just avoid the check for the time being.
01:50 colomon woot!
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01:51 colomon that's part of the problem from my perspective, of course -- no good feel for how complex these things actually are to do, so it's hard to tell if you're waiting for a one-line hack or a major refactor.
01:51 pmichaud that's probably a better short-term solution to the lack of Positional support
01:51 pmichaud the only major refactor I know of at the moment is the lazy iterator
01:51 pmichaud and if I can't put it through quickly, I'll jsut go back to eagerness for now
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01:51 pmichaud I know that many people are eager for working lazy iterators :)
01:51 sjohnson TimToady: what do you think about a for (@array) copy { stuff; } syntax, for making $_ copied and not by reference
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01:52 pmichaud sjohnson:   for @array -> $_ is copy { stuff; }
01:52 pmichaud (already exists)
01:52 colomon pmichaud: Again I will offer to be a (possibly dumb) sounding board for lazy iterator musings, too.  :)
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01:52 pmichaud colomon: at this stage it's more an issue of me sitting down with the code and grinding through it
01:53 colomon pmichaud: gotcha.
01:53 sjohnson pmichaud: i meant without having to state $_ if you are using $_
01:53 sjohnson just a thought / suggestion...
01:54 sjohnson kinda like how for (@array) { } # doesn't need for my $_
01:56 pmichaud I don't think it's a worthwhile shortcut
01:57 pmichaud (but that's just my opinion)
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01:58 pmichaud I don't find that "-> $_ is copy"  really needs its own shortcut.
01:59 sjohnson i think great shortcuts like that pave the way for cool obfuscated code, and a bit easier writing in some cases.  but that's just my opinion too :]
02:00 sjohnson i love those implied $_ thingies
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02:02 wayland76 Well, TimToady has done his best to get rid of a lot of the implied $_ :)
02:03 wayland76 No, I exaggerate.  But he's gotten rid of a lot of the functions that do that by default.
02:03 sjohnson i wonder if he'll like my idea.  *crosses fingers*
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02:18 diakopter hugme: hug me
02:18 diakopter ok
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02:21 sjohnson hugme: hug diakopter
02:23 diakopter heh
02:24 sjohnson looks like we ran out of love quota
02:24 diakopter sigh.  netsplit again.
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02:30 * colomon is dreading heading downstairs to see why the house's main server is not reachable from any of the other machines...
02:30 sjohnson diakopter: i feel like we're drifting apart
02:31 diakopter sjohnson: orly?
02:32 diakopter lovely.  I'm even split from chanserv.
02:32 diakopter freenode: be fixed
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02:36 sjohnson diakopter: *sad face*
02:36 sjohnson hard to get serious with such huge irc buffer interruptions
02:37 diakopter :)
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02:43 sjohnson diakopter: since no perl chat is going on just yet... i was wondering if you know anything about if it's illegal to take things from a landfill
02:44 sjohnson like, car batteries citizens think are dead, but just need a recharge and could be sold 2nd hand
02:46 diakopter depends who owns the landfill, I guess
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02:52 colomon perhaps I'm too cynical, but taking reusable things from a landfill sounds like one of those things that's such an obvious good that it almost certainly is against the law or something.
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02:56 wayland76 It is against the law here in Australia
02:56 wayland76 (I think it's health measures = insurance that causes the problem)
02:57 wayland76 There are guys, though, who ask people for things off their trailers before they're put into landfill
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02:58 PerlJam Does anyone know if there's a document somewhere that lists the things that Rakudo needs from Parrot?
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02:59 diakopter PerlJam: the ROADMAP in rakudo ng
02:59 diakopter has some of them
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03:00 PerlJam Let me rephrase ...  Does anyone know if there's an *updated* document that lists the things that Rakudo needs from Parrot?  :)
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03:00 diakopter an hour or two ago, I asked pmichaud about that here
03:01 diakopter and he replied diakopter: +1
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03:01 PerlJam okay.  Just checking.   I'm reading through the logs of #parrotsketch from Sunday.  I just got to the point where they're talking about focusing on a successful Rakudo* release
03:02 diakopter TimToady recommended reading that too; perhaps I will
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03:02 diakopter WHOA long
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03:03 Wolfman2000 ...how exactly does one get "throttled" out of a room?
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03:05 diakopter I guess sending too many messages to it
03:05 spinclad Wolfman2000: doing a large cut-and-paste into the room, where your irc client doesn't do its own rate-limiting (say to 1 line/sec)
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03:05 diakopter (but if you weren't sending anything, freenode glitches)
03:06 colomon PerlJam: where are the logs of #parrotsketch?
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03:06 PerlJam http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2009-12-13
03:06 JimmyZ http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2009-12-13
03:07 Wolfman2000 spinclad: I wasn't doing a large cut and paste
03:07 JimmyZ irclog?
03:07 spinclad Wolfman2000: dunno then
03:07 spinclad vantage number one of holding such a meeting online: everyone can read the WHOLE THING.
03:08 * diakopter sets aside more than 20 minutes to read the #parrotsketch irclog
03:08 spinclad (it lasted four hours of its scheduled three.)
03:09 * diakopter scrolls more quickly
03:10 PerlJam I wrote a short article for www.perl.com 4 or so years ago about Perl 6.  Back then it felt very much like Perl 6 was 2-3 years away from an alpha release.  Today Perl 6 *still* feels like it's about 2-3 years away, but from a "beta" release  (I wish I had a good way to calibrate my Perl6-sense)
03:10 diakopter lol.  kid51: Ah! a customer has just walked thru the door!
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03:11 diakopter I dunno, 3 years ago I felt like Perl 6 already had beta releases.
03:11 colomon PerlJam: really?  it feels to me like a proper rakudo beta will be ready approx in late 2010.
03:11 spinclad PerlJam: that's progress (and there's been plenty)
03:11 PerlJam I wonder if several someones could estimate the number of person-months needed to finish Perl 6, then perhaps we could tap into the wisdom of crowds for a good answer.
03:12 spinclad colomon: it might depend on whether a good beta has to run nonglacially
03:12 diakopter PerlJam: I assume you found http://nopaste.snit.ch/19067
03:12 PerlJam colomon: What do you see "Rakudo Beta" having that "Rakudo *" does not?
03:12 spinclad PerlJam: 'finish'?
03:12 colomon I really think the speed thing will work itself over the next year.
03:12 PerlJam spinclad: you know what I mean.  (or should)
03:13 colomon PerlJam: BigInts and FatRats.  fully working (if not threaded) hyper operators.  things like that.
03:13 PerlJam "finish to the degree that ordinary programming folk would call the language "done" or "ready" "
03:13 spinclad 'good enough to call done'
03:13 diakopter PerlJam: 'finish'?  to the Synopses as they are today?  a few 2<<10 person-months
03:14 colomon Also, I'm starting to doubt that even the worst of the speed issues will be finished by R*, so those too.
03:14 diakopter PerlJam: I assume you found http://nopaste.snit.ch/19067
03:15 PerlJam diakopter: oh, I haven't seen that yet.
03:16 diakopter http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parr​otsketch/2009-12-13#i_1832393
03:16 PerlJam yeah, I'm too easily side tracked and I haven't read that far yet :)
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03:19 PerlJam It's funny, but the stuff on the Parrot Roadmap spreadsheet that's slated for 2.3 and 2.6 feels like it should be in focus for 2.0.  But I guess it's just a question of resources.
03:19 PerlJam s/stuff/some of the stuff/
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03:20 * diakopter notes with interest that "eliminate Perl dependency" is scheduled to be dropped from the roadmap
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03:24 diakopter parrot 2.3 scheduled for release in April 2010
03:24 diakopter mid-April, it seems
03:27 diakopter so it seems the goals for that release (including the 2.0 goals) are:
03:30 diakopter 1) solve TT389 - fix :anon, :method   (from Allison's last two comments, looks like a few tens of person-hours - my blind guess, including project overhead)
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03:32 diakopter 2) solve TT566 - looks like pmichaud already (today) did this
03:33 diakopter 3) same for TT568
03:33 diakopter & 567 I mean
03:34 diakopter 2) TT592 - write documentation for parrot debugger. I suspect I speak for most when I conjecture that that will slip in light of the other priorities
03:36 diakopter 3) fix/extend the garbage collector - TT607/616 - a few thousand person-hours?  I don't know.
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03:38 diakopter 4) subroutine (and transitive ones) exit handlers.  a few hundred person-hours, order of magnitude guess.
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03:39 diakopter looks like native-type-lexicals got pushed to Oct 2010
03:39 spinclad :(
03:39 diakopter along with async I/O and constant data structures
03:40 diakopter while concurrency was sent to Jan 2011
03:41 diakopter (it was already set to then, I should say)
03:43 diakopter note; here was the Nov 5 list of needs: http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/p​arrot-dev/2009-November/003223.html
03:43 diakopter PerlJam: I agree it's a question (issue) of resources.
03:46 diakopter I'd be curious to know each contributor's 90% confidence interval of how many person-hours they have available to contribute to parrot *coding* (debugging/writing/analysis, not IRC) between now and mid-April
03:47 PerlJam diakopter: that would be interesting to know.
03:47 diakopter and I don't mean cage-cleaners
03:48 diakopter (no offense to them, of course; they're just as crucial, as always, just not as on the critical path here)
03:48 diakopter OMG MORE NETSPLITS
03:53 colomon #parrotsketch is awesome.
03:53 diakopter colomon: do you mean the irclogger?
03:53 diakopter :)
03:53 colomon I mean the log.
03:53 PerlJam colomon: #parrotsketch is awesome if you like silence.
03:54 PerlJam :-)
03:54 colomon the meeting, eh?
03:55 colomon it feels really good to know they're planning on focusing on making Rakudo * a success.
03:56 PerlJam #ps only has any meaningful activity about 2% of the time (except this past week where it was more like 5%)
03:57 PerlJam Yes, it's good that they are focusing on Rakudo*
03:58 * diakopter confused=>  allison: we have very few languages in a "finished" state
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04:00 diakopter open question:  is Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt ever a good thing?
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04:03 spinclad diakopter: when they are accurate perceptions
04:04 PerlJam diakopter: FUD is a good thing when it's working for you and not against you.
04:05 diakopter heh
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04:08 spinclad they are easily transplanted without their roots, though, and when mass-cultivated do great harm.
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04:47 Wolfman2000 I'm guessing Freenode is glitchy tonight.
04:48 hejki i'd say dwimmy
04:48 hejki like @freenode».split
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06:51 sjohnson they need to do way instain netsplits>
06:53 sjohnson who kill their connections.. because these irc users cannot fright back?
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06:55 Su-Shee good morning.
07:09 spinclad .oO( 'they need to do away with instant netsplits' )
07:10 sjohnson what does oO do?
07:10 spinclad sjohnson++  # NOMOR NETSPLITZ!
07:10 spinclad oO is the think operator
07:11 spinclad it also takes { } if you like
07:11 sjohnson what exactly does thinking do?
07:11 spinclad thinking makes pictures in your head
07:11 spinclad warning: do not believe them all
07:12 sjohnson .oO( 'how can I avoid having to work for a living' )
07:12 spinclad .oO( 'is a constructor of thunks' )
07:13 spinclad .oO( 'avoid work' <== 'want not' )
07:14 spinclad otoh
07:14 spinclad .oO( 'want not' ==><== 'want Perl 6' )
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07:24 spinclad mm.  huffman clearly calls for the .otOh operator
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07:27 flip214 HELO
07:27 flip214 or maybe better EHLO
07:29 sjohnson HELO flip214
07:31 flip214 Is anyone interested in a NULL PMC Access here, or should I just file a rakudobug?
07:31 Tene http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html
07:31 Tene ><
07:32 flip214 I've got it down to 2 files with a few bytes each
07:32 Tene .title
07:32 phenny Tene: The Universe of Discourse : Monads are like burritos
07:32 moritz_ good morning
07:33 Tene HI MORITZ
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07:33 flip214 220 IRC server ready
07:34 flip214 Ok, as no one jumps up and says "me, please" I'll just file a bug
07:41 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 15: .pick your game http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/15/day-15-pick-your-game/
07:41 hugme moritz_: You need to register with freenode first
07:41 moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 15: .pick your game http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/15/day-15-pick-your-game/
07:41 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
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08:57 frettled Good post-morning!
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09:12 Supaplex greetings frettled
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09:20 masak oh hai, #perl6
09:20 moritz_ \o
09:20 vamped o/
09:20 masak \o/
09:23 moritz_ can we somehow teach the overview posting not to send pingbacks to the other blog posts?
09:23 moritz_ (on the advent calendar, that is)
09:23 moritz_ they look rather spammy, which is why I deleted most of them manually
09:24 sjohnson y0
09:24 frettled omgitsmasak
09:24 masak moritz_: good thinking. blog posts not sending pingbacks to other posts on the same blog sounds like a FAQ. question is what to google for.
09:25 masak frettled: "Please, please, don't make a fuss. I'm just plain Yogurt." :)
09:25 frettled heh :)
09:27 moritz_ http://codex.wordpress.org/Intr​oduction_to_Blogging#Pingbacks not all that helpful
09:28 frettled other than admitting that pingbacks also are of the Beast.
09:29 sjohnson hows it going frettled
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09:30 moritz_ found the option, and disabled it
09:30 moritz_ Settings -> Discussion
09:31 flip214 EHLO Back-aga.in
09:41 frettled sjohnson: not too bad, but way too little time for things that are Perl.
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09:51 masak "If Perl 6 didn't exist, someone would have invented it by now."
09:51 masak this is my thought when backlogging over yesterday's discussion about P5 specializing in keeping backwards compatibility, and P6 specializing in breaking it.
09:53 masak the people with the "research project" meme are right insofar as P6 being a great enabler of the idea of "what happens if we break the stuff that needs breaking?"
09:53 masak "Perl 6: Perl without the brakes." :P
09:57 vamped too many things in society exists solely to not break backwards compatibility. Way to go Perl 6!
09:59 frettled heh
10:00 frettled masak: I had similar thoughts a few days ago: I wondered where Perl 5 would be if not for Perl 6.
10:01 masak frettled: it might be doing pretty well, it's hard to say. I think Moose would be affected quite a bit in some way.
10:02 masak someone might want to make an alternative history blog post. :)
10:02 frettled From my perspective, it looks like Perl 5 got vitalized by the Perl 6 development.
10:02 masak I think so too.
10:02 moritz_ if there was no Perl 6, Larry would have tried to mold Perl 5 into something less "broken"
10:02 frettled moritz_: and we'd call it Perl 6!
10:03 vamped if Perl 5.10 is enough, then why bother with 5.11 and 5.12 and ... ? I think that in a few years time, once Perl 6 is up, stable, with good modules, many will convert.
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10:03 moritz_ vamped: because Perl 6 is not Perl 5, and will never be
10:03 frettled vamped: It's not _that_ long ago that I looked at the list of improvements from 5.6 to 5.8 and though «okay, so Unicode support is better, but …»
10:03 moritz_ and there are not only people who like Perl, but also people who like Perl 5
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10:06 frettled and there are weird guys like me, who like both Perl 5 and Perl 6
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10:07 vamped @moritz: yes. what i'm saying though is that many people who love Perl 5 will love Perl 6 too.
10:08 moritz_ vamped: I know. But there also many people who won't love Perl 6
10:08 moritz_ and remember, this is open source and volunteer driven. There's just no way to say "we discontinue $a in favor of $b" when people want to work on $a.
10:08 * masak .oO( good thing we booted lambdabot )
10:09 vamped agrees with @moritz completely, while struggling to find the logic.
10:09 moritz_ vamped: we're not on twitter, no need to prefix nicknames with an @
10:09 moritz_ that looks like I'm an array :-)
10:10 vamped maybe you have multiple personalities? lol. ok.
10:10 masak moritz_-clones!
10:10 masak we'll order 10, and get the test suite finished early!
10:10 moritz_ vamped: maybe I have, but on IRC I try to hide them beneath a unified interface :-)
10:14 flip214 is there no accessor for them? not even private?
10:15 moritz_ private, yes
10:19 masak I'm always fascinated by different types of "X hijacking", mostly because the exploits are clever-ish. http://haacked.com/archive/20​09/06/25/json-hijacking.aspx
10:20 masak do you think that people will send things serialized with .perl in Perl 6, and suffer for it?
10:21 moritz_ I hope they won't, because it requires eval() in the receiver side
10:21 moritz_ which is very dangerous anyway
10:22 masak AFAIU, that's the way it's traditionally been done with JSON.
10:22 masak (and yes, it's bad)
10:22 masak a JSON parser for JavaScript wasn't written until quite recently.
10:25 moritz_ I think firefox has a sandbox-eval that allows only side-effect free evaluation, or some such
10:26 masak which amounts to using the JavaScript parser as a JSON parser, and smacking it over the fingers if it tries something else.
10:26 moritz_ right
10:26 moritz_ I wonder if we can have a :pure option to eval() in Perl 6
10:27 masak sounds like a fun job for a module. :)
10:27 moritz_ sounds like poking deep into the compiler, to me
10:27 masak yeah, probably.
10:30 moritz_ and while glancing over the page you linked to, I think the real problem in there is that something eval()s the js. The rest is "just" a clever environment manipulation to use that for mischief
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10:34 masak moritz_: indeed.
10:35 masak moritz_: November the Wiki uses files, .perl and eval in lieu of a database. not because we think it's a good solution, but because it was the simplest thing that could possibly work.
10:36 masak moritz_: so there's already a precedent in Perl 6 culture of someone doing it wrong. :)
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10:46 spinclad it would be a bit safer to eval the .perl in a constrained language, that can only build :pure constructs
10:47 masak i.e. a standalone parser.
10:47 spinclad yup
10:47 masak P6ON :)
10:50 spinclad a standalone grammar-plus-actions, anyway
10:51 spinclad (the grammar engine being the ocean this fish swims in)
10:55 masak hm, so subroutines default to :(@_), but &map defaults to :($_ is rw), correct?
10:55 masak why is the former readonly but not the latter?
10:55 masak hm, it's not &map, is it? it's anon blocks in general.
10:58 masak I guess one motivation for making anon blocks readonly goes like this: map and for are equivalent, and we still would like to be able to do things like `$_ += 2 for @stuff;`
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11:03 spinclad otoh you can say `@stuff .= map: *+2`; that would seem to ease the call for mutating mappers somewhat
11:07 masak troo.
11:07 spinclad although that replaces @stuff rather than replacing each element (which might matter); other than that i think it's equally expressive.
11:08 spinclad it just substitues an effective '@stuff is rw' for '$stuffing is rw'
11:11 masak heh. :)
11:11 moritz_ masak: if the things you store in November are simple enough, you could use JSON - at the cost of a speed hit, of course
11:11 masak moritz_: mm. my mental November ROADMAP wants to try Squerl.
11:12 spinclad but discards any aliasing on the @stuff[*]'s
11:13 moritz_ masak: Whatever :-)
11:14 spinclad .oO( ROADMAP discards aliasing )  # nonono
11:16 * spinclad thinks november is ripe for squerl
11:17 masak and, possibly, the other way around. :)
11:17 masak sushi &
11:18 moritz_ masak: blocks default to -> Object $_ is ref = OUTER::<$_> or so, subroutines to *@_
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11:19 Juerd http://juerd.nl/i/017ac09af​78e0af54a752e3d6236b18e.png
11:19 Juerd sslh is a green technology.
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11:21 * spinclad -> bed &
11:22 Juerd Advent day 15: «my @dice = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6); my $index = int (rand() * scalar @dice); print $dice[$index] . "\n";»
11:22 Juerd That's unfair to Perl 5
11:23 Juerd my @dice = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) = print $dice[rand @dice] . "\n";
11:23 Juerd s/= print/; print/
11:23 Juerd For the single pick,  $dice[rand @dice] isn't that much worse than @dice.pick
11:24 moritz_ right
11:24 Juerd The real big benefit comes when you pick multiple things, because in Perl 5 that generally is a lot of administration if you want to avoid picking the same thing twice.
11:26 BinGOs print +(1..6)[rand 6], "\n";
11:26 Juerd «for <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $suit»  I love this use of the unicode characters.
11:29 Juerd "Juerd Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation."
11:29 Juerd I didn't say that :)
11:29 Juerd wordpress--
11:30 moritz_ and approved.
11:50 carlin could someone with access merge the dupe RT #71288 with RT #64688
11:52 moritz_ done
11:52 moritz_ carlin: thanks
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12:05 flip214 what, that easy?
12:05 flip214 "could someone with knowledge please fix my outstanding tickets?" kthxb
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12:08 flip214 Sorry for being silly today
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12:11 Juerd Heh
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12:37 hejki rakudo: my @dice = 1..6; say @dice.pick(2);
12:37 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 64␤
12:38 moritz_ rakudo: say (1..6).pick(2).join: ', '
12:38 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 6, 2␤
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12:52 masak flip214++ # "could someone with knowledge" meme
12:52 moritz_ masak++ # handing out karma while no karma is being recorded
12:52 JimmyZ xinming: ping
12:52 masak Could someone with knowledge please make sure ng lands? kthxbai
12:53 carlin mubot: karma masak
12:53 mubot masak has a karma of 5
12:53 masak :)
12:53 masak masak++
12:53 masak mubot: karma masak
12:53 mubot masak has a karma of 6
12:53 masak that's dangerous. :)
12:53 moritz_ mubot: karma
12:53 mubot has not yet made an impact on this world
12:53 flip214 masak++ ++ ++ ++ ++
12:53 moritz_ mubot: karma moritz
12:53 mubot moritz has a karma of 7
12:53 moritz_ mubot: karma moritz_
12:53 mubot moritz has a karma of 7
12:53 xinming JimmyZ: pong?
12:53 moritz_ are these aliased?
12:53 masak flip214: no whitespace before postfix ops :)
12:53 flip214 mubot: karma masak
12:53 mubot masak has a karma of 7
12:53 xinming oops, I'm an op. >_<
12:53 moritz_ moritz++
12:54 carlin you could always make evalbot give you karma anyway...
12:54 moritz_ mubot: karma moritz_
12:54 mubot moritz has a karma of 8
12:54 carlin rakudo: say "masak++"
12:54 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: masak++␤
12:54 flip214 rakudo: say 'flip214++';
12:54 masak \o/
12:54 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: flip214++␤
12:54 moritz_ isn't that flip215? :-)
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12:54 masak carlin: the punishment for making the evalbot give you karma should be that the karmabot kicks you.
12:54 moritz_ flip214: you should change your nick with every karma increment and decrement :-)
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12:55 flip214 don't know who I am today
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13:03 frettled moritz_: brilliant :)
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13:11 flip214 mubot: karma
13:11 mubot wordpress: -1 | trace: -4 | thowe: 1 | state: -1 | sjohnson: 1 | pugs: 1 | pmurias: 14 | pmichaud: 1 | perl6advent: 3 | p6eval: -1 | nothingmuch: 1 |
13:11 flip214 and I though that I got some, too ....
13:12 flip214 but masak isn't listed, so that's probably ok
13:13 masak hm... I'm philosophically opposed to 'karma lists'.
13:13 masak but YMMV.
13:13 moritz_ p6eval++
13:13 moritz_ mubot: karma p6eval
13:13 mubot p6eval has a karma of 0
13:13 moritz_ mubot: karma foobar
13:13 mubot foobar has not yet made an impact on this world
13:14 frettled mubot: mu
13:14 mubot Sorry, I don't understand that command
13:14 frettled that's okay
13:15 masak it should reply 'I object!'
13:16 moritz_ :-)
13:16 moritz_ mubot: or "I Object!"
13:16 mubot Sorry, I don't understand that command
13:20 rodi "I, Object"
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13:23 IllvilJa Having the option of supplying a 'weight' function to the .pick() method to dynamically manipulate the probability of each element to be .picked() would be very useful.  Dynamically letting individual elements get a probability of zero to exempt them from being picked would be useful too. Calls for me writing a module I guess ;-).
13:23 * IllvilJa curses the fact there is so much to do and so little time...
13:24 moritz_ well, time doesn't just exist, you have to take the time to do things
13:26 IllvilJa I have to implode into a black hole, and create a little big bang and associated universe with eternal amount of time which I use to write up all kinds of fun code and then return back with the goodies... Should work.  Only a few technical details to sort out.
13:27 IllvilJa Like becoming a person again after being a black hole for 0 seconds/1 infinity.... or avoiding that the rest of the world get's sucked in in the process (which really would be in the way for my code writing...)
13:27 moritz_ and in the time you wait for the money to be allocated, you can write a few Perl 6 modules. Sounds like a great plan :-)
13:27 moritz_ (the money you need for buying the equiment to build a black hole, of course)
13:28 coke moritz_: I saw that episode of SG:1. apparently you can just get it over the internet.
13:28 masak IllvilJa: the 'weight' feature you're requesting is already spec'd.
13:28 masak IllvilJa: but it's spec'd on Bags, and Rakudo doesn't have those yet.
13:28 colomon Was just writing that in a comment reply.  ;)
13:28 moritz_ coke: somebody wrote the same bullshit as I did? :-)
13:29 IllvilJa masak: sounds very good!
13:29 IllvilJa Every day is a teacher about perl 6 :-)
13:30 IllvilJa Ok, time to go pick up my daughter at daycare.
13:30 IllvilJa CU later.
13:30 IllvilJa (and thx for swift replies)
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13:53 Wolfman2000 *yawn* morning
13:53 masak o/
13:54 Wolfman2000 Guess my last topic choice was a good one.
13:54 colomon getting a lot of interest, for sure.
13:54 carlin Wolfman2000: I told you you picked a good topic ;-)
13:55 Wolfman2000 ...of course, now I realized I should have made a Bingo example, but then I remembered that I don't recall the best way to turn 5 lists verticle.
13:55 Wolfman2000 vertical*
13:55 Wolfman2000 I'll let someone else deal with that.
13:55 colomon ha!  bingo never occurred to me as an example, but it's keen.
13:56 slavik if for and map are equivalent, is there a reason to have both?
13:56 moritz_ yes
13:56 slavik bah, chat window didn't scroll down, but question stands :)
13:56 colomon anyone have recommendations for a linux rescue CD?  my house's mian server appears to be hosed...
13:56 colomon *main
13:56 slavik moritz_: for what purpose?
13:56 moritz_ colomon: grml
13:56 slavik colomon: ubuntu/knoppix
13:56 Wolfman2000 colomon: not familiar with rescue CDs
13:57 Wolfman2000 but ubuntu for getting teh data is a good idea
13:57 moritz_ slavik: timtowtdi. They read rather differently
13:57 * Wolfman2000 would have done so for his dad's old laptop, but the motherboard just gives up after 3 minutes.
13:57 masak they're of different grammatical category.
13:57 masak map is a listop, for is a special statement form.
13:58 moritz_ http://grml.org/download/ FWIW
13:58 slavik I see, but other than that, there is no real difference?
13:58 colomon moritz_: thanks, trying to figure out which version to download...
13:59 moritz_ slavik: there is, if you have a list-thing which overrides map
13:59 slavik I see
14:00 slavik for grammars, is it possible to have a grammar act as a parser and output error messages if it doesn't properly match?
14:00 moritz_ colomon: grml-medium should be enough for most recovery tasks (200MB download)
14:00 slavik since you can define tokens, it could say what token it was expecting and what it got
14:00 moritz_ slavik: yes
14:00 slavik sweet
14:00 moritz_ slavik: you can also give the tokens different names in the error message
14:00 moritz_ with the :dba ("do business as") adverb
14:01 slavik moritz_: is there a working example of this?
14:01 moritz_ rakudo: token foo { :dba<bar> '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{   ' ~~ /<foo>/
14:01 colomon moritz_: downloading now.  danke.
14:01 moritz_ slavik: STD.pm is full of it :-)
14:01 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Unable to find regex 'bar'␤in regex
14:01 rodi STD.pm has some nice error messages.
14:02 rodi yeah, what moritz_ said.
14:02 moritz_ rakudo: token foo { :dba('bar') '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{   ' ~~ /<foo>/
14:02 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse 'bar', couldn't find final '}'␤in regex
14:02 moritz_ wtf?
14:04 moritz_ in master, src/parser/grammar.pg contains a :dba('...')
14:04 moritz_ so I think it should work
14:04 moritz_ ah
14:04 moritz_ it actually worked
14:04 moritz_ but I was confused that it gave an error message :-)
14:05 moritz_ rakudo: token foo { :dba('block with curlies') '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{   ' ~~ /<foo>/
14:05 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse 'block with curlies', couldn't find final '}'␤in regex
14:05 rodi wow, that's nifty.
14:06 masak rakudo: token foo { :dba(block with curlies) '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{   ' ~~ /<foo>/
14:06 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse block with curlies, couldn't find final '}'␤in regex
14:06 rodi why does that work?
14:07 slavik nice
14:07 moritz_ that's a bit scary
14:07 moritz_ it shouldn't :-)
14:07 frettled Re: weighted pick() - I have this nagging feeling that it might be easyish to find a work-around for that.
14:07 rodi I grok :dba<block with curlies> but not what masak wrote...
14:07 PerlJam morning
14:07 moritz_ rodi: it's a rakudo limitation, not spec
14:07 slavik what about token program { <statement>+ }; token statement { blah blah }, you get the idea
14:08 PerlJam looking over the last several days of perl6 tweets, it seems that there are many more positive tweets about it.
14:08 frettled IllvilJa: The problem with weighting pick() (or some other method), is how to fribble the notation properly.
14:08 slavik and out of multiple possibilities for a statement to tell you what it is expecting
14:08 moritz_ slavik: you mean like STD.pm does it?
14:08 slavik moritz_: don't know haven't seen it :)
14:09 rodi moritz_: gotcha, okay.
14:09 slavik moritz_: idea is to have a parser for code where you only define grammar and then just walk the tree :P
14:09 slavik to be able to write an interpreter in perl6 by defining the grammar and then walking the smart matcher object
14:10 masak PerlJam: definitely a positive trend since the P6AC, yes.
14:10 jnthn o/
14:11 moritz_ slavik: it's probably easier to define action/reduction methods to build some kind of AST as an intermediate format
14:11 slavik hmm
14:11 moritz_ otherwise each and every grammar change means changes to the interpreter kernel
14:11 moritz_ and that's really painful
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14:23 colomon Ack.  My server seems to turn over and die in the process of booting Linux -- whether the installed CentOS or grml off the CD.  :(
14:29 moritz_ run a memcheck
14:29 colomon moritz_:  is that on the grml CD, do you know?
14:30 moritz_ might be, as a boot option
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14:30 moritz_ you can press F1, F2 etc. to get online help of the boot options
14:30 moritz_ (while in the boot menu, that is)
14:31 * colomon had just gone to thinking about how to rebuild the svn server on the "media" box...
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14:33 masak http://www.polettix.it/perlettix/id_perl-5-parsing
14:34 masak by some astounding coincidence, STD.pm currently weighs in at 5600 lines of code. but I wouldn't call it ad-hoc. :)
14:35 colomon the good news: grml does indeed have memtest86, even in grml-medium.
14:35 Wolfman2000 is there something magic about 5600?
14:35 colomon the bad news: just selecting memtest86 to run kills the system before memtest can actually start.  :(
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14:38 Wolfman2000 ...I'm starting to wonder if a primarily solo developer of a git app is supposed to be able to manage...right now 5 branches on his own.
14:39 moritz_ colomon: so it's CPU, motherboard or RAM. :/
14:41 moritz_ I have no idea where this 5600 comes from, and how fair or unfair it is to compare parsing code with BNF grammars
14:41 colomon moritz_: now we get to find out how well those svn backups I've been making work in practice....
14:48 masak grrr! every time I send email to the p6u list, I get annoying an whitelisting email from some Russian guy.
14:48 moritz_ aye
14:48 masak wait, no. Ukrainian.
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14:49 masak I've written about it before on p6u, asking to have him removed. but either no-one whoz op is listening, or the guy keeps coming back.
14:49 moritz_ the latter
14:50 moritz_ he was gone for a while
14:50 masak really? then I'll write to p6u again.
14:51 rjh joined #perl6
14:51 moritz_ don't
14:51 moritz_ write to perl6-users-owner
14:52 masak thanks -- I'll do that.
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14:53 masak email sent.
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14:53 moritz_ what's the opposite of an "optical dense medium"?
14:53 moritz_ I somehow don't think that "sparse" is the right word :-)
14:53 frettled muidem esned lacitpo
14:54 * moritz_ .frettles flip
14:54 moritz_ erm
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14:56 masak moritz_: 'thin'?
14:56 Wolfman2000 ...okay, no clue how I got disconnected
14:58 * moritz_ just took "medium with smaller refractive index" :/)
14:59 pmichaud_ good morning, #perl6
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15:02 masak pmichaud_: good morning!
15:03 masak moritz_: that works too. but 'optically thinner medium' sounds perfectly ok, at least.
15:03 Wolfman2000 ...forgot to give the /back command.
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15:10 frettled masak/moritz_: or «medium with a refraction index closer to 1» :D
15:11 masak meh.
15:11 frettled The terminology seems to be «less optically dense» and «more optically dense»
15:11 frettled or «lower optical density» and «higher optical density»
15:12 frettled lower or higher refraction index/index of refraction
15:12 masak hokay.
15:12 frettled and so on
15:12 frettled We could of course introduce the term «undense».  ;)
15:13 pmichaud_ "optically like a fruitcake" and "optically like a mousse"
15:13 frettled or moose
15:14 moritz_ I don't think moose are so undense :-)
15:14 frettled opaque like an idiot or transparent like a fool
15:14 masak Perl 6 aims to be both :)
15:15 masak The objects, for example, are opaque, so you can't look into them.
15:15 masak But on the other hand, classes allow for great introspection.
15:17 moritz_ so classes are fools?
15:17 masak there's an OO in fool. :)
15:18 masak but yes, I think classes are something of the court jester in programming.
15:20 frettled :)
15:21 pmichaud_ Wolfman2000++   # excellent advent post
15:22 Wolfman2000 thanks pmichaud_
15:22 pmichaud_ at some point I'd like to see
15:22 masak indeed, Wolfman2000++
15:22 Wolfman2000 Unfortunately, that looks like my last one. I gave up my last day to moritz_.
15:22 pmichaud_ for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { @deck.push(...) }
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15:23 Wolfman2000 ...does that actually work?
15:23 masak aye.
15:23 pmichaud_ rakudo: for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { say "$rank$suit"; }
15:24 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: A♥␤A♣␤A♦␤A♠␤2♥␤2♣␤2♦␤2♠␤3♥␤3♣␤3♦␤3♠␤4♥␤​4♣␤4♦␤4♠␤5♥␤5♣␤5♦␤5♠␤6♥␤6♣␤6♦␤6♠␤7♥␤7♣␤​7♦␤7♠␤8♥␤8♣␤8♦␤8♠␤9♥␤9♣␤9♦␤9♠␤T♥␤T♣␤T♦␤​T♠␤J♥␤J♣␤J♦␤J♠␤Q♥␤Q♣␤Q♦␤Q♠␤K♥␤K♣␤K♦␤K♠␤
15:24 masak ooh! idea for a poster: ideas/concepts in Perl 6, sorted by approximate abstraction level, with history descriptions of the languages which launched that particular feature, along with languages which took the idea further... if someone made such a poster, I'd surely buy it.
15:24 masak if no-one volunteers, I'll make a github repo and start on it myself.
15:24 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @deck; for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { @deck.push(...); }; say @deck.pick(5).join(" ");
15:24 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
15:24 Wolfman2000 ...right
15:24 pmichaud_ well, I meant to have the Card.new in for the ...
15:24 Wolfman2000 rakudo: my @deck; for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { @deck.push($rank ~ $suit); }; say @deck.pick(5).join(" ");
15:25 p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 4♠ 6♣ 7♦ 6♦ K♦␤
15:25 Wolfman2000 well, that works just as well.
15:25 Juerd Sweet.
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15:25 masak "Can't return outside a routine"? wtf?
15:25 Wolfman2000 pmichaud_++ for what looks like an excellent use of the Cross Operator
15:25 pmichaud_ Wolfman2000: here's the version I had...  http://www.pmichaud.com/2009/pres​/oscon-perl6op/slides/slide5.html
15:25 jonasbn hello
15:26 colomon masak: sounds cool, but I'd rather have an up-to-date periodic table of operators...  :)
15:26 moritz_ hi jonasbn
15:26 Juerd Nah, let's stop updating old documents and keep producing new ones.
15:26 masak colomon: I thought it was still fairly up-io-date...
15:26 jonasbn pmichaud_, we talked about a perl6 hackathon in Copenhagen at some point
15:26 Wolfman2000 The Z operator...it's some sort of zip thing, right?
15:26 pmichaud_ yes
15:26 jonasbn pmichaud_, I am ready to start organizing
15:26 pmichaud_ jonasbn: excellent.  what timeframe might we be looking at?
15:26 masak Wolfman2000: infix:<Z> and &zip are synonyms.
15:27 moritz_ and where will the hackathon be? :-)
15:27 pmichaud_ "in Copenhagen"  :-)
15:27 masak Perl 6 hackathon in Copenhagen? woot!
15:27 Wolfman2000 masak: I still don't quite get what it does. I'm guessing...since it's using the deck, take the name inside each deck, give it a value, and put those key pairs into the hash.
15:27 masak let's use all of Copenhagen!
15:28 pmichaud_ Wolfman2000: http://www.pmichaud.com/2009/pres/​oscon-perl6op/slides/slide9a.html
15:28 frettled jonasbn: \o/
15:28 masak Wolfman2000: @a Z @b produces @a[0], @b[0], @a[1], @b[1]...
15:28 Wolfman2000 pmichaud_: your online slides don't exactly give an easy way of going to the next one
15:28 jonasbn pmichaud_, well I have two agendas
15:28 pmichaud_ start at http://www.pmichaud.com/2009/pres/​oscon-perl6op/slides/slide12.html   for an explanation
15:29 jonasbn pmichaud_, one is to get a "Copenhagen" release
15:29 pmichaud_ Wolfman2000: press "spacebar"  or "N" to go to next slide
15:29 colomon masak: don't think it's been updated in six months or so.  I know for sure the S(equential) operators have been added since then, and I'm pretty sure others as well... have to look at the poster to figure out what else has changed.
15:29 jonasbn pmichaud_, the second one is to do it in conjunction with our local open source conference
15:29 pmichaud_ jonasbn: when is that?
15:29 jonasbn which is called Open Source days
15:29 jonasbn pmichaud_, in march 2010
15:29 Wolfman2000 gotcha
15:30 pmichaud_ anyway, the code is explained starting with slide12.html
15:30 pmichaud_ (I did this as a lightning talk)
15:30 pmichaud_ jonasbn: march 2010 is _perfect_
15:30 pmichaud_ looks like march 5 + 6
15:30 jonasbn pmichaud_, 5th. and 6th.
15:30 jonasbn pmichaud_, http://opensourcedays.org/2010/
15:30 masak jonasbn++
15:30 pmichaud_ masak, moritz:  would you be able to make it then?
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15:31 masak yes!
15:31 jonasbn so now I just need to now what you require from me, the I will be the local liason
15:31 pmichaud_ I might even have funding
15:31 pmichaud_ (for others to attend)
15:31 jonasbn or whatever the word is
15:31 moritz_ pmichaud_: hard to tell, since I'm looking for a job these days
15:31 moritz_ but at least there's nothing planned for march
15:31 masak moritz_: plan it! :)
15:32 moritz_ (but that's basically true for all dates in the first half of 2010)
15:32 jonasbn pmichaud_, cph.pm has funds, so I just need to clear with the other guys
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15:32 pmichaud_ jonasbn: that works too.
15:32 jonasbn so how do you guys want me to go about this?
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15:33 moritz_ jonasbn: yes!
15:33 pmichaud_ jonasbn: tpf has been asking me about a perl6 hackathon
15:33 jonasbn pmichaud_, great
15:33 pmichaud_ so let me get back with them and suggest copenhagen as the location, assuming the dates + travel work out
15:34 pmichaud_ I'll do that today + tomorrow, and send you an email later this week?  (more)
15:34 jonasbn okay, sounds good
15:34 pmichaud_ in the meantime, have you discussed it with the open source days 2010 organizers, or do you need to do that?
15:34 Wolfman2000 where exactly is Copenhagen?
15:34 jonasbn I will write a proposal for the Open Source Days organizers
15:34 pmichaud_ perfect
15:35 moritz_ Wolfman2000: in Europe :-)
15:35 jonasbn Wolfman2000, Capitol of Denmark, Scandinavia, Europe
15:35 Wolfman2000 yeah, I can't make it.
15:35 pmichaud_ Wolfman2000: too far to travel, or ... ?
15:35 Wolfman2000 that, and I can't afford the time or money
15:36 * Wolfman2000 is trying to become a high school math teacher in Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
15:36 pmichaud_ there's also been discussion of putting together a rakudo* and parrot hackathon for the eastern u.s.
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15:36 pmichaud_ likely eastern pennsylvania  (or something in that general vicinity)
15:37 jonasbn do you have any material in relation to previous hackathons?
15:37 pmichaud jonasbn: anyway, I'd say let's make it happen :)
15:37 jonasbn pmichaud, that is the least part :)
15:38 * arnsholt likes the idea of Copenhagen
15:38 arnsholt Just a short flight away
15:39 jonasbn pmichaud, I expect we do it one way or the other, I just want us to be as effective as possible, so we actually contribute
15:40 jonasbn and I want as many of you guys to participate, to hold our hands
15:40 Wolfman2000 ...what day would this take place on anyway? Perhaps there are other ways of me being there without me being there...what are your thoughts of video conferencing?
15:41 jonasbn Wolfman2000, 5th. and 6th.
15:41 Wolfman2000 of March?
15:41 pmichaud if we can get   <masak mberends jnthn moritz TimToady>.pick(3)   there I think it can be highly successful
15:41 pmichaud I'd think we might do it in two parts
15:41 masak I'm honoured to be on a list with those names. :)
15:41 pmichaud early March 2010 is when we'll want to be finalizing various pieces for Rakudo*
15:41 jonasbn Wolfman2000, Friday and Saturday
15:41 Wolfman2000 ...if there is a way you can get a live feed of me or something, I can hopefully be there too.
15:41 * Wolfman2000 has a camera on his Mac at least
15:42 sbp chuckle, I just found this: "If you know the perl language, then that is a powerful (if otherwise incomprehensible) language with which to hack together a server." — TimBL, in http://www.w3.org/Provider/ShellScript.html
15:42 jonasbn Wolfman2000, so do I you at least get a picture of me looking confound
15:42 pmichaud so in addition to the conference days themselves, we might want to have a couple of days on either end where the Rakudo* core devs can work on things
15:42 moritz_ phenny, ask jnthn there are (tentative) plans for a Perl 6 hackathon on 2010-03-0{5,6} in Copenhagen - would that suit you?
15:42 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
15:42 jonasbn pmichaud, sounds like a good idea
15:43 Wolfman2000 jonasbn: you also want to see if we can pull off being there digitally?
15:43 masak sbp: Perl isn't incomprehensible, just insane in a productive-enhancing way. :)
15:43 jonasbn pmichaud, we will see if we can set up a venue for you guys
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15:43 pmichaud Wolfman2000: hackathons often have an online component -- we often do a bunch via irc
15:43 Wolfman2000 perhaps we can add Skype to the mix
15:43 jonasbn Wolfman2000, I will see what I can do
15:43 pmichaud Wolfman2000: in fact, it's common for two people sitting across a table from each other to be chatting via irc
15:44 pmichaud jonasbn: that would be awesome
15:44 jonasbn pmichaud, and a beer component too?
15:44 jnthn moritz_: Not, it conflicts with the Dutch Perl Workshop.
15:44 phenny jnthn: 15:42Z <moritz_> ask jnthn there are (tentative) plans for a Perl 6 hackathon on 2010-03-0{5,6} in Copenhagen - would that suit you?
15:44 pmichaud ...dutch perl workshop is the same time?
15:44 jnthn http://www.perlworkshop.nl/nlpw2010/
15:45 pmichaud aiiiiie
15:45 jnthn I already said I'd go there.
15:45 jnthn Can't be in two places at once!
15:45 masak ooh, a Dutch Perl Workshop!
15:45 jonasbn only friday
15:45 jnthn ETOOFATFORQUANTAMPHYSICSTOAPPLYTOME
15:45 moritz_ jnthn: "you're so fat, the complete wave function collapses on you" :-)
15:46 masak we all are. :/
15:46 ash___ has anyone noticed ng's gather not acting the same as non-ng's gather?
15:46 pmichaud jnthn: would you be able to travel from nlpw to copenhagen fairly quickly?  either immediately before or immediately after?
15:46 masak ash___: I thought that was part of the idea. :)
15:46 masak ash___: ng's gather should eventually be lazy.
15:47 jonasbn jnthn, so at least you are in the neighbourhood, we can arrange our part for you to Saturdays (afternoonish)
15:47 pmichaud ...and is it the gather acting differently, or the take?  ;-)
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15:47 ash___ masak: well, accoding to the spec (i thought) rakudo: my @a = gather for 1..2 { }; say +@a; #=> 2 not 1
15:47 moritz_ ash___: that's probably because the range 1..2 doesn't work yet
15:47 pmichaud I'm thinking Copenhagen is a lot easier for people to get to than Arnhem :)
15:48 pmichaud I mean, being the "capital of Europe" and all :) :)
15:48 masak ash___: is there supposed to be a 'take' inside that block?
15:48 jnthn pmichaud: I thought that was Brussels? ;-)
15:49 jnthn jonasbn: Is there any reason the two are overlapping?
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15:50 jonasbn jnthn, we want to do it at the same time as the local Open Source Conference
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15:50 jonasbn jnthn, which is Friday and Saturday
15:50 jonasbn jnthn, it will be good exposure for Perl 6 and Perl
15:52 arnsholt jnthn: I think there are several cities that claim to be "capital of Europe" =)
15:52 masak good news! the downwards trend since the slashdotting has turned, as of yesterday.
15:52 colomon \o/
15:52 Wolfman2000 ...don't tell me it was my post
15:53 Wolfman2000 All I did was choose one method, and that was it.
15:54 moritz_ Wolfman2000: you should have said "I picked one method" :-)
15:54 Wolfman2000 *groan*
15:54 jonasbn well I need to cook dinner, I will join again later
15:54 moritz_ and no, it was already rising yesterday
15:54 masak Wolfman2000: the upturn was for the 14th.
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15:54 moritz_ jonasbn++
15:55 masak but it doesn't have to mean anything. we could be down to the point where the number just fluctuates.
15:55 colomon bet it was people who don't look over the weekend catching up.
15:56 masak hm, sounds reasonable.
15:56 arnsholt How many unique visitors does the blog get, roughly?
15:56 masak arnsholt: about 1k a day.
15:56 masak arnsholt: it was 11k the day after the slashdotting.
15:57 moritz_ actually it was about 20k in 24 hours
15:57 Wolfman2000 since I have to leave soon (I'll stay on IRC), I'll at least leave with one bit of good news.
15:57 moritz_ but spread over two days
15:57 colomon masak: that's views rather than unique visitors, isn't it?
15:57 arnsholt 11k is a lot. But 1k should give some good PR as well
15:57 Wolfman2000 My final grades came in. I got all As this semester. I'm on my way to become a teacher!
15:57 masak colomon: yes, that might be.
15:57 colomon Wolfman2000: \o/
15:57 masak Wolfman2000: \o/
15:58 masak Frackin' A!
15:58 Wolfman2000 *groan* enough with the terrible puns already.
15:58 masak you must be new here. :P
15:58 arnsholt Wolfman2000: One is hardly enough!
15:58 Wolfman2000 only a month...
15:59 frettled masak: which what was slashdotted?
15:59 * frettled has been avoiding /. for the past years.
15:59 masak frettled: I think it was pmichaud++'s metaoperators
15:59 frettled aha
15:59 masak that amused me.
15:59 frettled :)
16:00 frettled Day 12 has some interesting comment questions, but no answers, interesting or otherwise.
16:00 frettled And I don't know how to answer the questions.  Argh!
16:00 masak 1. "Write answer" 2. "Push submit"
16:00 frettled :)
16:01 colomon also the day 1 "getting rakudo" was slashdotted in the same post.
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16:01 frettled aha
16:03 masak std:
16:03 diakopter std: !
16:03 masak std: *
16:03 p6eval std 29343: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infix at /tmp/XJg5xvxpXE line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32m![33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  prefix or meta-prefix␤    standard stopper␤ term␤   terminator␤       whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤
16:03 p6eval std 29343: ok 00:01 104m␤
16:04 masak std: my $hash = { 2 => { 6 +> 7, 8 => 9 }␤};
16:04 p6eval std 29343: ok 00:01 107m␤
16:04 masak TimToady: ^
16:05 masak TimToady: S04:232 says that should fail with "closing hash curly may not terminate line".
16:05 diakopter masak: if there's a line after it in the same block
16:06 masak diakopter: not according to S04:232.
16:08 pmichaud (slashdotting)   not only did slashdot occur right after the metaoperators post, but I think that's about the time that Tim O'Reilly tweeted it as well
16:08 masak nod. it was the same 24 hours.
16:09 masak very unscientific. now we don't know which one was the bigger contributor. :P
16:10 frettled Heh, I love the highest ranked comment on Slashdot: «Word on the street… …is Duke Nukem Forever is being rewritten in Perl 6.»
16:10 frettled masak: you can use the Referer header for that
16:10 frettled at least for those who haven't disabled it
16:11 masak frettled: nod. I think the referer logs showed that Slashdot pulled in quite a bit more than Twitter.
16:11 masak frettled: I think we should show them all by writing DNF in Perl 6. :)
16:11 pmichaud or writing Perl 6 in DNF.
16:11 masak frettled: and then make sure it works on a recent release of Hurd.
16:11 diakopter std: my %a = { "hi" => "hi" }␤say 3
16:11 p6eval std 29343: ok 00:01 106m␤
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16:14 frettled masak: heh, DNF = Did Not Finish :)
16:16 diakopter moritz_: re 5600 lines; does that include the p5re grammar
16:16 masak diakopter: was that directed to me? I don't know what it includes.
16:18 diakopter masak: no
16:19 masak oh, ok. svn.
16:19 diakopter (moritz_'s comment in the backlog)
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16:20 masak ah.
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16:37 ash___ hi? is anyone else having issues with freenode?
16:38 masak virtually everyone, I'd guess.
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16:43 pmurias me too
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16:55 frettled ash___: there have been repeated administrative notices about it
16:55 frettled ash___: At least one of the freenode servers is targeted by a DDoS attack.
16:56 frettled That's the risk you run with IRC servers.
16:56 masak what kind of people DDoS IRC servers? did they frequent too many channels without hugbots?
16:57 ash___ frettled: okay, just wondering if it was me, the internet in my area died for a long time yesterday, just making sure it wasn't my internet
16:57 Infinoid masak: arguably, more hugbots are always better
16:57 ash___ masak: so, ummm i never saw your response about gather/tak
16:57 ash___ gather/take
16:57 moritz_ diakopter: re 5600 lines, I have no idea where that number comes from.
16:58 ash___ in the ng branch, it does indeed seem lazy, so lazy it can't cant itself :P, because shouldn't my @a = gather for 1..2 {}; say +@a; #=> 2  ?
16:59 diakopter oh, whoops, it *was* masak who said that
16:59 moritz_ ash___: 1..2 doesn't work in ng yet
16:59 masak diakopter: I knew it! :P
17:00 moritz_ ng: my @a = gather for 1...3 { take $_ }; say +@a
17:00 p6eval ng 0307c2: 3␤
17:00 moritz_ with ... it works in simple cases
17:00 moritz_ and you also need to take() :-)
17:00 ash___ ah, so it is working right, i just didn't use it right
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17:01 frettled masak: Well, IRC has almost always been a (set of) place(s) for script kiddies and so on, so DDoS attacks are either just a way to show how 1337 you are, or how 14m3 the other guy is.
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17:07 masak frettled: we should find on which channel they hang out, and go there and DDoS them with hugs. :P
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17:27 frettled masak: haha :)
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17:35 dalek rakudo/master: 55f51dc | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
17:35 dalek rakudo/master: "2009-12-15 00:00",7ef3861,32225,504,543,2027,35172,38173,453
17:35 dalek rakudo/master: spectest-progress.csv update: 453 files, 32225 (84.4% of 38173) pass, 504 fail
17:35 dalek rakudo/master: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5​5f51dc3b0ef48d9668f0307621c0eb996f7c68e
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17:57 masak huh -- nobody is doing smartmatching for the advent calendar.
17:57 masak that's a pity.
17:57 frettled masak: then that's a good Christmas morning bonus entry!
17:57 masak :)
17:58 yath the christmas bonus entry should be rakudo star :P
17:58 coke ... gruntlebuggies?
17:58 * coke is wondering if the portion of his brain devoted to D. Adams is correctly riffing on frettled's nick.
17:59 * coke is, it seems, close.
17:59 frettled :D
17:59 masak 'fredded'
17:59 frettled coke: I think Mr. Adams used the spelling «freddled».  «Oh, freddled gruntlebuggit!  Thy micturations are to me, like <something> to a lurgid bee!»
17:59 frettled Or something like that.
18:00 coke micturations?
18:00 * coke needs to dig up an emulator and set up his kids to play the text game.
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18:00 frettled try «vogon poetry» on Wikipedia :)
18:00 frettled Ah, there it is:
18:00 frettled "Oh freddled gruntbuggly?thy micturations are to me/As plurdled gabbleblotchis on a lurgid bee. Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes. And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,/ Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
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18:04 TimToady masak: the one on junctions mentions talks about smartmatching some
18:04 masak thanks. I'll read it.
18:04 TimToady pick a verb, any verb
18:05 frettled verb.pick()
18:05 masak I'm writing tomorrow's post now, and I don't want to skip things or repeat myself.
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18:25 masak tomorrow's advent post is ready for preview and comments. :)
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18:36 mberends .oO( Arnhem .. Copenhagen )
18:36 mberends we gotta hire us a little bus!
18:36 mberends only 7.5 hours overnight according to teh googel
18:37 masak mberends!
18:37 masak \o/
18:37 mberends !
18:38 mberends \o/
18:38 jnthn mberends: oh hey, that's not a bad idea, if there's a bunch of us.
18:38 jnthn Anmd somebody is willing to drive.
18:38 mberends I'm one banana in a bunch
18:38 mberends and willing to drive
18:38 jnthn I'm willing to be a banana.
18:38 jnthn However, can't drive.
18:39 jnthn (Can't in both senses.)
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18:39 mberends no probs, I'm volunteering
18:40 jnthn mberends++
18:40 jnthn That could be fun
18:40 jnthn Perl bus!
18:40 masak \o/
18:41 mberends no bus errors please
18:41 masak and no bus numbers...
18:41 masak food &
18:44 coke jnthn: how goes ng?
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18:52 new2perl6 Hi, was just reading some of Moritz's "perl 5 to 6", and right near the beginning it says, "While Perl 5 hashes are even sized lists when viewed in list context, Perl 6 hashes are lists of pairs in that context." Is that actually a list of references to 2-item lists?
18:52 moritz_ new2perl6: no, it's really Pair objects
18:53 new2perl6 Does Perl 6 have references?
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18:53 moritz_ rakudo: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; say @(%a)[0].WHAT
18:53 p6eval rakudo 55f51d:  ( no output )
18:53 moritz_ new2perl6: not in the Perl 5 sense, but it does have call-by-reference semantics
18:54 moritz_ rakudo: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my @array = %a; say @array[0].WHAT
18:54 new2perl6 I know Python. In Python, everything is a reference to an object. Is that the way it works in Perl 6?
18:54 p6eval rakudo 55f51d:  ( no output )
18:54 moritz_ new2perl6: basically, yes. Except some low-level types which are "value types"
18:55 moritz_ seems p6eval is borked
18:55 moritz_ locally here:
18:55 moritz_ > my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my @array = %a; say @array[0].WHAT
18:55 moritz_ Pair()
18:55 new2perl6 moritz_: Hm. I see. So, @(%a) is what we use now instead of @{%a} ...
18:55 moritz_ new2perl6: not quite. It's a way to force list context
18:56 moritz_ in Perl 4, @{%a} is an error, because %a is not an array ref
18:56 moritz_ erm, perl 5
18:56 new2perl6 moritz_: Arg. Whoops. Yes, thank you for the correction.
18:56 moritz_ evalbot control restart
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18:57 moritz_ new2perl6: there are quite a few things that look similar to Perl 5, but are a bit enhanced under the hood
18:57 new2perl6 moritz_: So, `.WHAT` is like Python's type().
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18:58 moritz_ probably. My python-fu is too weak :-)
18:58 moritz_ but it gives the type object associated with an object
18:58 new2perl6 moritz_: Ha. You're excused. ;)
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18:59 moritz_ actually I wanted to learn python to hack up `cplay' a bit
18:59 moritz_ but... I have to hand in my diploma thesis in 3 days. Yikes.
18:59 colomon what's it on?
19:00 new2perl6 moritz_: Oh my. You're extra busy this week.
19:00 moritz_ colomon: "Ballistic Transport of Spin-Polarized Electron Beams in Mesoscopic
19:00 moritz_ Systems"
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19:00 colomon That's a mouthful.  :)
19:02 new2perl6 moritz_: You say "basically, yes" that everything is a reference (except for some "value types"). Does Perl 6 still copy on assignment, like Perl 5? In Python, when you assign one variable to another, you get 2 references pointing to the same object.
19:03 TimToady new2perl6: Perl 6 distinguishes assignment from binding
19:03 TimToady use := to get the Python semantics
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19:03 new2perl6 TimToady: Ah. Ok. So, by default, we get the usual expected "make a copy of this" behaviour.
19:04 TimToady moritz_: is "mesoscopic" smaller or larger than a flea?
19:04 moritz_ TimToady: smaller. Small enough to observe quantum effects
19:04 new2perl6 TimToady: I mean, by default using the `=`.
19:04 TimToady well, Penrose speculated that flea-sized was the boundary :)
19:05 moritz_ TimToady: in our systems it's a few micrometers
19:05 moritz_ but I don't see why there should be an upper boundary for quantum effects (but that's not really a topic I've studied)
19:06 TimToady http://www.bartleby.com/100/211.5.html
19:06 rodi moritz_: Penrose (again) thinks it's how (and why) your brain works.
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19:07 moritz_ I'm pretty sure I have no fleas in my brain :-)
19:07 moritz_ at least not literally :-)
19:07 diakopter new2perl6: yes
19:08 Su-Shee moritz_: still a real Diplom on friday?
19:08 rodi http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/flea.php
19:08 colomon moritz_: any hints on diffing two directory trees in Linux / OS X ?
19:08 colomon My svn backups were two weeks out of date... :(
19:08 pugs_svn r29344 | lwall++ | [S32/Containers] refine pick concepts on baggy things for IllvilJa++
19:08 moritz_ Su-Shee: yes
19:09 Su-Shee moritz_: "last of its kind..." :)
19:09 moritz_ colomon: unison if you want two-way merges
19:09 colomon TimToady: are Bags still a going concern in the language, then?  :)
19:09 moritz_ Su-Shee: roughly
19:11 TimToady I haven't seen them disappear from the spec...
19:12 new2perl6 moritz_: You wrote, "but it does have call-by-reference semantics". So, although "my $b = $a" makes a copy of $a for assignment to $b, if I call foo($a), inside the body of foo() $a still refers to the object outside?
19:13 moritz_ new2perl6: function calls do (read-only) binding
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19:14 new2perl6 moritz_: I don't think I know what "read-only binding" means... Wait. Inside the function, if I only *read* $a, it's referring to the outside object?
19:14 moritz_ rakudo: sub f($x) { $x++ }; my $y = 4; f($y)
19:15 moritz_ wtf is up with p6eval?
19:15 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Cannot assign to readonly variable.␤in sub
19:15 moritz_ ah, here it comes
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19:15 moritz_ new2perl6: you can not re-assign to the parameter variable (here $x)
19:16 pmichaud new2perl6: inside of a sub, the parameter is indeed a reference to the argument.  However, by default it's a read-only reference, which means you cannot use it to change the value of the argument
19:16 moritz_ but in general you can still call mutating accessors on objects
19:17 pmichaud to get a read+write reference one would declare the parameter as  "is rw", as in    sub f($x is rw) { ... }
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19:18 pmichaud afk for a bit...
19:18 new2perl6 moritz_: I think I need to try out some examples like the one you just tried to have the rakudobot run.
19:18 new2perl6 pmichaud: Oh, it's a constant then.
19:18 moritz_ for value types, yes
19:19 new2perl6 pmichaud: Ah. "sub f($x is rw) { ... }". I see.
19:19 moritz_ rakudo: sub f($x) { $x.push('a') }; my $a = [1, 2]; f($a); say $a.perl
19:19 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: [1, 2, "a"]␤
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19:19 moritz_ here you can't assign to $x, but you can mutate the object inside $x by calling methods on it
19:20 moritz_ that's why there's usually a mutable and an immutable version of each type
19:20 new2perl6 moritz_: Oh, I see. That makes sense.
19:20 moritz_ for example List is immutable, Array is mutable
19:20 moritz_ [1, 2] creates an Array
19:21 moritz_ (rakudo doesn't do List very well yet, iirc)
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19:21 new2perl6 moritz_: [1,2] creates a mutable "Array" ... does (1,2) create an immutable "List"?
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19:22 new2perl6 moritz_: Sorry, I guess this is getting pretty far off-topic from my original question. :)
19:22 moritz_ new2perl6: something along these lines, yes
19:22 moritz_ and no, perl 6 is never off-topic here :-)
19:23 colomon moritz_: Never mind my last request, just remembered I had DiffMerge sitting around on my system.
19:23 new2perl6 moritz_: Yes, but it's easy to suffer from this condition where, instead of reading the Synopses you just come to #perl6 and keep asking questions. :)
19:23 TimToady rodi: well, False is 0 and True is 1 if you force numeric
19:23 new2perl6 moritz_: s/you/I/
19:24 moritz_ new2perl6: so did I, reading the Synopsis is hard at first, and they don't answer all your questions :-)
19:25 rodi TimToady: yeah, should have been more specific- I would like to pick two specific characters at render time (e.g. Bool::True is an X and Bool::False is a .)
19:25 new2perl6 Thanks all. Bye.
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19:25 pmichaud ...is masak++'s "scanning" example correct?
19:25 pmichaud (for the next perl6advent post)
19:25 moritz_ ('X', ' ')[?$x]
19:25 rodi I have a version of it working where I simply stringify the whole array and .subst on the 1's and 0's.
19:26 moritz_ erm, actually revert those items in the list
19:26 TimToady <. X>[+$x] I think, if $x is already a Bool
19:27 pmichaud phenny: tell masak   I think the p6advent post ought to mention that "when" works in any block that sets $_
19:27 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
19:27 pmichaud phenny: in the scanning example, I think you may want to drop the  "-> $line"  in "for $*IN.lines -> $line {"
19:27 pmichaud er
19:28 rodi I find endless amusement by replacing methods and classes by characters and words.
19:28 pmichaud phenny: tell masak in the scanning example, I think you may want to drop the  "-> $line"  in "for $*IN.lines -> $line {"
19:28 phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
19:28 moritz_ <. X>[+$x] looks like a nice fish operator :-)
19:28 rodi moritz_, TimToady, thanks, works great.
19:28 rodi heh.
19:28 pmichaud looks like a mutant fish, though.
19:29 TimToady swimming upside-down
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19:30 moritz_ <. X>« would look better
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19:30 * rodi goes to make himself a new  bumper sticker...
19:32 TimToady funny day, backlogging irssi X ilbot2 gives me a large percentage of what someone said somewhere...
19:32 moritz_ TimToady: I guess Europe and the US have been on different sides of the net splits quite often today
19:34 TimToady but it's a bit like people wandering around in a thick, sound-absorbent fog
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19:54 colomon Hmmm.... looking at day 16 post.
19:54 colomon next when $line ~~ '';  strikes me as a bit weird.
19:55 moritz_ for ... { next when '' } would be better
19:55 jnthn wants to be next if no?
19:55 moritz_ and using $_ instead of $line
19:55 jnthn well, only use when it testing the topic, yes
19:55 colomon I would also explain that when and if are basically the same, except if always "continues".
19:56 moritz_ not the same. 'when' does smart matching, 'if' coerces to Bool
19:56 colomon I guess my issue is, won't the when statement automatically "next" if it fires?
19:57 moritz_ right
19:58 colomon rakudo; given 10.0 { if Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; };
19:59 colomon rakudo: given 10.0 { if Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; };
19:59 p6eval rakudo 55f51d:  ( no output )
19:59 colomon well I'll be.
19:59 colomon good thing I didn't write the given / when day!  :)
19:59 moritz_ rakudo: given 10.0 { when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; };
19:59 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: I'm a Num␤
20:02 diakopter rakudo: given 10.0 { if ~~Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; };
20:02 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: hi␤I'm a Num␤
20:03 diakopter std: given 10.0 { if ~~Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; };
20:03 p6eval std 29344: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/mGo3t6pnvM line 1:␤------> [32mgiven 10.0 { if ~~[33m⏏[31mNum { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a [0m␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
20:03 diakopter I guess it's two ~
20:04 diakopter (in rakudo)
20:04 diakopter rakudo: given 10.0 { if ~~~~~Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; };
20:04 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: hi␤I'm a Num␤
20:04 colomon and he definitely doesn't want the "-> $line" in the $*IN example.
20:04 colomon Is masak asleep or just afk?
20:04 jonasbn sleeping at the keyboard?
20:05 colomon bummer.
20:07 diakopter std: say ~~3 # TimToady: why does it find infix ~~ here?
20:07 p6eval std 29344: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/b3xclq2au2 line 1:␤------> [32msay ~~[33m⏏[31m3 # TimToady: why does it find infix ~~ [0m␤FAILED 00:01 104m␤
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20:09 diakopter pugs: sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~ 55
20:09 p6eval pugs: 1␤
20:09 diakopter std: sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~ 55
20:09 p6eval std 29344: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/nUfuND6Or4 line 1:␤------> [32msub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~[33m⏏[31m 55[0m␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤
20:09 diakopter rakudo: sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~ 55
20:09 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
20:10 diakopter imho that's an ambiguity
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20:16 moritz_ it's specc
20:16 moritz_ foo is a listop
20:16 moritz_ and expects a term
20:17 moritz_ if you don't want that, write foo()
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20:39 ash___ masak: have you tried your Configure.pm from proto with ng?
20:45 ash___ ng: .say for 1, 2, 3;
20:45 p6eval ng 0307c2: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
20:45 ash___ rakudo: .say for 1, 2, 3;
20:46 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 1␤2␤3␤
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20:48 eiro hello all
20:51 colomon hello
20:51 ash___ so... should we be using ng? or master? i am a bit confused by the differences between those branches
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20:52 masak o/
20:52 phenny masak: 19:27Z <pmichaud> tell masak   I think the p6advent post ought to mention that "when" works in any block that sets $_
20:52 coke unless you're hacking, I'd use master.
20:52 phenny masak: 19:28Z <pmichaud> tell masak in the scanning example, I think you may want to drop the  "-> $line"  in "for $*IN.lines -> $line {"
20:52 coke hacking -on rakudo-, that is.
20:52 masak pmichaud: good idea and will do, respectively. thanks!
20:53 pmichaud ash___: ng branch still has bigger holes.... for the next week or so at least, I'd stick with master
20:53 pmichaud there will be a big announcement when we switch to ng (more precisely, ng will be renamed "master")
20:53 moritz_ masak: also notice that 'next when...' is a bit weird
20:54 ash___ okay, thanks pmichaud
20:54 moritz_ masak: siince 'when' already implies somethiing similar to 'next'
20:54 moritz_ as colomon++ pointed out
20:54 masak moritz_: it's tautological, but not fatally so.
20:54 eiro masak, bug reports/contribs on proto: is there the good place to chat about it ?
20:54 masak eiro: here is fine.
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20:54 moritz_ here!
20:54 eiro ok
20:54 moritz_ bug reports supposedly go to the github bug tracker
20:55 eiro moritz_, yep but i don't know the good strategy to patch
20:55 eiro i noticed there is no verbose mode. is it ok to add a GetOption
20:55 eiro to remove the usage of dotty-progress
20:56 colomon masak: I believe it works, it just seems like a confusing example.
20:56 eiro ./proto --verbose --gen-parrot-anyway
20:56 masak colomon: agreed.
20:59 colomon btw, it's a great post.  I love given / when...
20:59 masak me too. :) that's why I claimed the topic early.
20:59 masak oh, I should briefly mention CATCH, also.
21:02 TimToady next as a statement modifier does not imply break semantics
21:02 TimToady s/next/when/ grr
21:02 masak I was thinking about that.
21:02 TimToady so "next when" is not redundant
21:02 masak does the spec mention that?
21:03 TimToady yes
21:03 TimToady but nobody reads that.... :/
21:03 masak :P
21:03 masak TimToady: I haven't backlogged yet; did you see my block parsing heads-up?
21:03 TimToady S04:923
21:05 TimToady haven't had a chance to look at that yet.  it may be that we can relax that restriction, which was put in for pugs
21:05 jonasbn pmichaud, have got first response from the OSD organizers about the hackathon - they are VERY positive
21:05 masak TimToady: sounds good. I've never felt a use for it, fwiw.
21:06 jonasbn pmichaud, they inquire if it would be possible to get some 45 min. presentations from some of you guys as part of the bargain
21:07 masak I wouldn't mind giving a presentation.
21:07 jonasbn masak, great :)
21:08 moritz_ if I'm able to come, I'll also volunteer for a talk
21:08 jonasbn I will try to collect the threads, is there a better way to contact your guys than via IRC? - like a mailing list or something
21:08 moritz_ jonasbn: perl6-compiler@perl.org should work
21:09 masak I'd say IRC is the better way, but YMMV. :)
21:09 jonasbn moritz_, thanks, IRC is great but for giving you the complete picture, I might prefer email
21:10 TimToady masak: I think that rule predates the notion that the inside of bracketing constructs is a statement in its own right.
21:10 pmichaud jonasbn: I am always glad to give presentations
21:10 masak TimToady: aha.
21:10 TimToady now that it is, it doesn't matter if the inner } thinks its terminating a statement
21:10 TimToady so I think we can remove the exception
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21:10 masak \o/
21:11 jonasbn I think the OSD people are quite interested in the parrot aspect in more general terms, the majority are not necessarily perl h4X0rs
21:11 jonasbn they might even sponsor travel to some extent
21:12 masak that's great!
21:12 pmichaud perhaps we get could allison to come
21:12 coke OSD?
21:13 sjohnson hi dudes
21:13 pmichaud coke:
21:13 pmichaud oops
21:13 jonasbn they require for me to give some details on requirements for the physical space - do you guys have any idea on this from previous hackathons or similar
21:13 pmichaud coke:  http://www.opensourcedays.org/2010/
21:13 masak "Obsessive Seduction Disorder" :)
21:13 pmichaud copenhagen, denmark, march 5-6 2010
21:13 frettled masak: heh
21:13 jonasbn masak, yes, it is going to be FUN!
21:13 pmichaud we're looking at putting together a Perl 6 hackathon or workshop at that time
21:13 masak frettled: don't snicker, it could happen to you! :P
21:14 frettled masak: I hope so!
21:14 pugs_svn r29345 | lwall++ | [S04] remove fossilized restriction dug up by masak++
21:14 masak "masak: removing things from the spec, adding things to RT"
21:15 pmichaud when the spec is empty and rt is full, we will be finished.
21:15 masak "now also in a handy bottle"
21:15 frettled heh
21:16 TimToady ss/thinks its/thinks it's/ # durn english orthography...
21:17 frettled TimToady: perhaps we should switch to standardized Indonesian
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21:18 TimToady as long as it's written in Kanji and Kana, I'll be fine
21:18 hercynium joined #perl6
21:19 masak 'use Indonesian::Standardized;'
21:19 Tene jonasbn: If they can sponsor travel, I'll contribute.
21:20 frettled ⠗⠙⠵⠹
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21:20 frettled 一三三七
21:20 pmichaud jonasbn: right now I see three aspects to a workshop (more)
21:21 * TimToady is entertained
21:21 pmichaud one is to participate in osd, to get the word out about perl 6
21:21 pmichaud another is to provide a venue for people to help with hacking
21:21 pmichaud or to learn how to get started with hacking
21:22 pmichaud and a third is as a dedicated workshop for many of the core Rakudo contributors to meet to clear things in preparation for Rakudo*
21:22 moritz_ we could also be presenthing the Perl 6 book
21:22 pmichaud and yes, that also
21:22 mberends jonasbn: I'm also happy to give a presentation to OSD
21:22 jonasbn pmichaud, that sounds like what we want to aim for
21:22 pmichaud however, it looks as though one of our key players (jnthn) won't be able to make it directly to osd
21:22 frettled oh :(
21:23 pmichaud because he has a commitment to dutch perl workshop
21:23 jonasbn pmichaud, I personally just want to have a "Copenhagen" release ;-)
21:23 pmichaud jonasbn: oh, I'm sure we can arrange that :)
21:23 pmichaud a few of us had already been exploring "how and where can we get a rakudo hackathon in early 2010" -- you just popped in at the perfect time
21:23 jonasbn pmichaud, what if the hackathon would be saturday and sunday, the dutch perl workshop is friday
21:24 pmichaud jonasbn: yes, that's what I'm thinking
21:24 pmichaud some of us can attend osd on friday, to present and participate there
21:24 mberends pmichaud: jnthn, myself and whoever else is interested could drive from Arnhem to Copenhagen together
21:24 pmichaud then we can have a general hackathon on saturday and sunday
21:24 pmichaud then, depending on who can stay (and both jonathan and I can), some continued rakudo* work for a couple of days after that
21:26 pmichaud as far as what we need, it depends on how many show up
21:26 pmichaud in general we just need a room or rooms with wifi, some writing surfaces, and availability of hacking fuel (food and/or nearby eating places)
21:26 jonasbn so it is actually the number of participants setting the requirement
21:27 pmichaud pretty much
21:27 jonasbn do you have an upper limit?
21:27 pmichaud my experience is that they tend to be self-limiting by who can come (and when), but 30 would seem to be a top upper limit
21:27 pmichaud I need to look at the structure of osd a bit as well
21:28 pmichaud it also depends on how many mentors are available
21:28 pmichaud (i.e., people who can help guide others)
21:28 pmichaud any idea how many people we'd be likely to attract from the copenhagen area?
21:29 jonasbn pmichaud, not at this time, but I would prefer if the attendant primarily are local
21:29 jonasbn with you guys to help us out
21:30 pmichaud that seems workable.  At the moment we're looking that there may be about 6 of "us guys" helping out
21:31 frettled I'm tempted to make this an excuse to go to CPH again.  Don't worry, I'm house trained.  ;)
21:32 pmichaud so if there's around 20-30 participants overall, that could be good.  I suspect we might do some "structured introduction" at the first part of the hackathon, to introduce newbies to Perl 6 and how things are put together, and then break up into smaller groups or individual tasks where people can hack on whatever they think will be most interesting.  That formula worked extremely well at NPW earlier this year.
21:32 jonasbn then that is what we do
21:33 jonasbn what is your take on spectators
21:33 jonasbn I mean regular OSD attendees
21:33 pmichaud that'd be fine with me, unless you envision a problem
21:33 pmichaud to me "spectator"  is "rakudo hacker who doesn't realize it yet"
21:33 pmichaud :-)
21:33 jonasbn much of the stuff is normally "configuration", so I really look forward to putting the open source into open source days :)
21:34 jonasbn pmichaud, great, since this is propably what we have to deal with
21:34 pmichaud works for me
21:34 pmichaud I may start a google group for this topic
21:34 jonasbn please feel free
21:34 pmichaud I'll do that later today
21:34 jonasbn or a wave :)
21:34 Tene wave isn't public access yet
21:35 coke I have wave invites if anyone wants one.
21:35 jonasbn Tene, you want an invite?
21:35 pmichaud I'll take an invite :)
21:35 coke pmichaud: incoming.
21:36 payload joined #perl6
21:36 jonasbn pmichaud, a google group will do
21:36 pmichaud mberends:  if driving from arnhem to copenhagen, what's the expected availability in copenhagen?
21:36 pmichaud yes, I'll do a google group for now.
21:36 pmichaud I'll pre-subscribe the people commenting here (let me know if you wish to not be subscribed)
21:37 Tene jonasbn: I'm on wave already, but many potentially interested people aren't.
21:37 Tene pmichaud: please subscribe me.
21:37 pmichaud Tene: will do.
21:37 mberends pmichaud: driving 7-9 hours overnight, arriving early Saturday morning
21:38 pmichaud mberends: that could work out really well, if people aren't too tired :)
21:38 mberends timezones are in the mind ;)
21:38 jonasbn what about night train?
21:38 * mberends will look, but fears the price
21:38 jonasbn that all can have a beer
21:38 jonasbn s/that/then/
21:38 mberends :)
21:39 pmichaud I was even thinking of trying to make it to Dutch Perl Workshop in that case... but I'm not sure it's good for me and jnthn to both be in the same vehicle for an overnight trip in the cold of winter in scandinavia :)
21:39 mberends I'll drive *really* carefully
21:39 jonasbn I will investigate sponsorship options in adition, so do not make any decision based on economy just yet
21:39 jnthn pmichaud: meh, Denmark is the unhardcore point of Scandinavia.
21:39 jnthn ;-)
21:40 jnthn No polar bears and extreme snow there, right? :-)
21:40 pmichaud it did concern me a bit in 2005 when I was driving a vehicle containing both TimToady and audreyt :)
21:40 jonasbn jnthn, weatherwise yes - coastal climate and no mountains
21:40 mberends March should be early spring
21:40 jonasbn jnthn, I can take you to the zoo :)
21:41 pmichaud I think there may also be some sponsorship opportunities from other sources as well
21:41 pmichaud and if there's a strong Rakudo* component, we may be able to use hague funds to support some of this
21:43 Tene I remember this was also discussed at PDS.
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21:44 eiro for someone who just wants to play with perl6, is there a difference between parrot_in_rakudo and rakudo_in_parrot ?
21:45 eiro is there a prefered choice ?
21:45 jonasbn pmichaud, who are the 6 of you? - is that the complete list you mentioned earlier?
21:45 pmichaud jonasbn: basically, depending on who can make it.
21:45 Tene eiro: if you're just playing a bit, no difference.
21:45 jnthn mberends: There is a night train Koln - Copenhagen.
21:45 colomon pmichaud:  I guess I would be interested in being on the IRC support end of things for the hacking, at least a bit.  (depending on time zones, I suppose  :)
21:45 eiro thx Tene
21:46 jonasbn pmichaud, okay and sponsorships is a great motivator I guess
21:46 jnthn mberends: That depends on getting to Koln by 21:00 or so, iirc.
21:46 pmichaud as I said, we were already starting to try to put something together for the list I gave earlier
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21:46 pmichaud one of the things we didn't yet have was an event+location that was in the right time frame and generally easy for folks to get to
21:47 pmichaud you just provided that :)
21:47 [particle] last time i was in Koln there was a guy singing dylan covers really badly in the main square.
21:47 [particle] hope he's not still there.
21:48 masak my daft draft is now updated with everyone's suggestions, and I probably won't touch it until it publishes itself at 00:01.
21:48 masak should anyone find any last-minute corrections or improvements, you have my permission to just go in and make them.
21:48 masak good night, everyone.
21:48 jnthn night, masak
21:48 pmichaud masak++  # excellent
21:49 jonasbn pmichaud, so we are talking room for 30 + 6?
21:49 pmichaud jonasbn: yeah, that seems reasonable.  might say 40 just to be on the safe side
21:50 pmichaud anyone remember about how many perl6-hackers we had at npw?
21:50 jonasbn 40 in total
21:50 pmichaud right 40 in total
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21:50 pmichaud I want to say that at npw we had about 20 perl 6 hacking folks
21:51 pmichaud might've been 25
21:51 jonasbn pmichaud, I think we will land on the same number
21:51 pmichaud :)
21:51 pmichaud agreed
21:52 pmichaud frettled: if this is a good excuse for you to come to cph, I'm sure we'd like having you
21:53 ash___ are there any perl 6 related events going on in/near/around Atlanta, GA?
21:54 eiro it seems that proto comes with a little YAML parser: why don't use YAML.pm ?
21:55 moritz_ where's that YAML.pm everybody keeps talking about?
21:55 mberends eiro: proto needs to be self contained, to begin installing any modules
21:56 eiro moritz_,  perl -MYAML -E 'say $INC{"YAML.pm"}'
21:56 eiro /usr/share/perl5/YAML.pm
21:56 eiro :)
21:57 moritz_ eiro: that's not a Perl 6 module
21:57 eiro mberends, ok ... so the patch i'm writting is dumb: i began by including Getopt::Long :)
21:57 eiro moritz_, yep, understood
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21:58 coke ah, TimToady was about, so I can ask again, what should this do:
21:58 coke rakudo: sub foo { try {return 5}; return 4}; say foo()
21:58 p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 4␤
21:58 mberends eiro: write a Perl 6 Getopt::Long, and use it :)
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21:58 pmichaud coke:  I'm pretty sure it should return 5
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21:58 pmichaud note that option handling is described in Synopsis 19, too :)
21:59 coke that was my reading of the spec, too.
21:59 coke want an RT?
21:59 cotto_work joined #perl6
21:59 coke (it's also an issue in NQP)
21:59 mberends eiro: the proto script itself is a small bootstrap written in Perl 5, the rest is Perl 6
22:00 eiro mberends, yep but this boostrap failed for me so i plan:
22:00 coke odd. perl6 queue has 279 new and 279 open tickets.
22:00 eiro - to add a verbose mode to know what's really happening (remove ./dotty-progress use )
22:00 Tene eiro: there's a Getopt library in Parrot that you can use from Rakudo.
22:00 eiro - to fix the bug
22:01 eiro Tene, yeah but i'm patching the perl5 code
22:01 mberends eiro: good idea :)
22:02 eiro i'll just handle a -v as first argument: no need of GetOptions for that
22:02 eiro is this ok ?
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22:03 mberends also add a -h for help
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22:06 eiro ok ... perhaps a multiflag ... $ARGV[0] =~ /^-/ and @options = ( split //,$ARGV[0] )[1,-1]
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22:08 mberends eiro: whatever works for you initially. several other proto developers are likely to refactor the code anyway.
22:10 eiro mberends, when this refactoring will come true ?
22:10 jonasbn good night all you lovely Perl 6 ppl - I hope it will work out to get you to Copenhagen
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22:12 eiro oops ... i click on the "fork button" on github :)
22:13 mberends eiro: it tends to happen in the course of other proto development. it needs volunteer time, so it's quite irregular. behind that is the philosophy that proto is the simplest thing that could possibly work, and that it should make way for a better tool asap.
22:14 Tene can anyone here confirm that try{} in Perl 6 should *NOT* catch return?
22:14 hicx174 joined #perl6
22:14 mberends eiro: are you looking at proto's installed-modules branch?
22:15 coke Tene: aside from me? =-)
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22:15 Tene coke: last I heard, you were asking whether it should or not.  Did you have this confirmed?
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22:16 coke pmichaud agrees.
22:16 Tene is this all control exeptions, or just return?
22:16 coke all control exceptions, no?
22:16 eiro mberends, no... i'm on master
22:16 eiro mberends, not good ?
22:16 coke "A CATCH block handles only "bad" exceptions, and lets control exceptions pass unhindered."
22:16 Tene coke: okay.  thanks.
22:17 coke (from S04)
22:18 eiro mberends, i'm on here now
22:18 mberends eiro: the installed-modules branch is more recent, and would perhaps be more suitable for your patching
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22:19 eiro mberends, ok... i install gittk to see that (i'm not skilled with git)
22:19 mberends eiro: ok
22:22 eiro mberends, if i push my patches in my github fork, is it easy for the git maintainers to merge with their own repos ?
22:22 eiro is that the best way to do ?
22:22 moritz_ eiro: tell us your github ID
22:22 moritz_ then we'll add you to proto as a committer
22:22 moritz_ and you push directly
22:22 moritz_ less hassle, everyone's happy :-)
22:23 eiro my github id is eiro
22:23 moritz_ hugme: add eiro to proto
22:23 * hugme hugs eiro. Welcome to proto!
22:23 eiro :)
22:23 eiro thanks
22:23 mberends moritz_++ # coolness!
22:24 moritz_ eiro: thank you for the great patches to come :-)
22:25 sjohnson y0
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22:26 eiro moritz_, haha ... i don't know if it would be great patches :)
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22:44 pmurias mberends: is you secret project ready to be unvailed
22:44 pmurias ?
22:45 mberends sorry, was afk. no, unfortunately :(
22:45 moritz_ what's the matter with your guys? everbody has a secrit project, it seems :-)
22:46 moritz_ masak, mberends, tene...
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22:46 mberends too ashamed to show the (buggy) code ;)
22:47 eiro :))
22:47 mberends HDD = Hubris Driven Development, has pros and cons
22:52 frettled moritz_: I only know about others' secret projects, I don't have any of my own.
22:55 payload joined #perl6
22:58 wayland I can tell you what's up with the secret projects; those who talk about their projects (I have maybe 4 I talk about) aren't actually working on them :)
22:58 carlin talk while the tests are running :-)
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23:11 Wolfman2000 back from errands/work. pmichaud: I replied to your post.
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23:15 Wolfman2000 pmichaud++
23:16 pmichaud Wolfman2000: replied to your reply to my reply :)
23:16 Wolfman2000 Nothing wrong with shortcuts, but often times roleplaying games also look at the values of individual dice, not just the total.
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23:24 frettled I want to write a reply to the reply^3, but I think it may turn into a blog entry instead.
23:24 frettled Yet another excuse for delaying my post about time, the setting, and Temporal.pm.
23:26 carlin http://gist.github.com/257402#file_gistfile1.txt # What does it mean if rakudo keeps dying with this output?
23:27 Tene That's a Parrot bug.
23:28 Tene You should report it to parrot and open a trac ticket about it, ideally.
23:28 Tene The GC and calling conventions are getting some attention lately, so chances are good of getting someone to notice it.
23:28 Tene If you could identify which line it's failing on, that would be ideal.
23:31 * IllvilJa impatiently checking the Perl 6 advent calendar (it has been December 16th for over 30 minutes now in Sweden...)
23:33 carlin IllvilJa: it has been the 16th for 12 hours and 30 minutes here :-)
23:34 jnthn carlin: ooh...what are the winning lottery numbers for the morning draw? ;-)
23:34 IllvilJa The men from the future :-D.  We are time travelers!
23:36 Wolfman2000 The post for the 16th is to come in...at least 30 minutes from now
23:36 carlin Tene: filled the program with warn statements, so I'll wait until it crashes again and then open a trac ticket
23:36 Tene carlin: Great, thanks.
23:37 wayland carlin: Where are you?  New Zealand?
23:37 carlin wayland: yip
23:37 wayland (Australia myself :) )
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23:56 sjohnson hi
23:56 colomon Next Advent post should be in five minutes...
23:56 IllvilJa Wooooo!
23:57 * IllvilJa hitting 'reload' button frantically
23:58 eiro ok .. patch is working but i can't push:
23:58 eiro http://pastebin.com/d1d46eef4

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