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zaslon |
lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 15: .pick your game': http://perl6advent.wordpress.c[…]5-pick-your-game/ |
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M8YCjC56g |
testing testing 1 2 3 |
| 01:32 |
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M8YCjC56g |
<sigh |
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diakopter |
testing testing 1 2 3 |
| 01:34 |
|
diakopter |
looking at http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]ster/docs/ROADMAP |
| 01:34 |
|
diakopter |
since pmichaud reminded me it's the object of focus |
| 01:34 |
|
diakopter |
or http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]s/ng/docs/ROADMAP |
| 01:35 |
|
diakopter |
many of the large-scale task descriptions could use more updates, imho (that I don't know enough to add) |
| 01:35 |
|
diakopter |
since it was dated Aug 09 and said it was for the following 4-6 months (through Dec or Feb) |
| 01:36 |
|
colomon |
I was just wondering if it would help if some of us low-level ng developers made a list of things that are blocking us at the moment. |
| 01:36 |
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diakopter |
status/expectations updates, I guess I mean |
| 01:37 |
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pmichaud |
diakopter: +1 |
| 01:37 |
|
colomon |
I don't know how many tuits I'll have during the holidays, but as things currently stand, it's really not worth trying to hack on ng. Just too many holes... |
| 01:37 |
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TimToady |
you should read the backlog of #parrotsketch over the weekend too |
| 01:37 |
|
pmichaud |
well, it's worth hacking on ng if you fit the particular flavor of cheese at the moment :) |
| 01:39 |
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TimToady |
.oO(a Swiss Army Cheese) |
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| 01:46 |
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colomon |
sorry, didn't mean to get complain-y there. |
| 01:47 |
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pmichaud |
no problem :) |
| 01:47 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm sure it's frustrating from where you're sitting, and justifiably so. |
| 01:48 |
|
colomon |
Just thinking that if array arguments, lazy iterators, and list assignment were in place, there would be a plethora of eminently hackable core things. |
| 01:48 |
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pmichaud |
array arguments shouldn't be a blocker. |
| 01:48 |
|
pmichaud |
just use a scalar for now. |
| 01:48 |
|
colomon |
but I'm sure we all have our own list like that. :) |
| 01:48 |
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| 01:48 |
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colomon |
Is that sane? |
| 01:49 |
|
pmichaud |
you can certainly do |
| 01:49 |
|
pmichaud |
sub foo($a) { |
| 01:49 |
|
colomon |
I mean, it's sort of cheating.... |
| 01:49 |
|
pmichaud |
well, I don't know how soon roles will land |
| 01:49 |
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| 01:49 |
|
colomon |
On the other hand, given permission to cheat.... |
| 01:49 |
|
pmichaud |
actually, perhaps I'll go the other way (more) |
| 01:49 |
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| 01:50 |
|
pmichaud |
currently the problem is that we don't have a Positional role that can be used for the binding check. perhaps I'll just disable the binding check. |
| 01:50 |
|
TimToady |
sometimes bootstrapping requires extra circularity saws |
| 01:50 |
|
pmichaud |
that way one can write the correct p6 code, and we just avoid the check for the time being. |
| 01:50 |
|
colomon |
woot! |
| 01:50 |
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| 01:51 |
|
colomon |
that's part of the problem from my perspective, of course -- no good feel for how complex these things actually are to do, so it's hard to tell if you're waiting for a one-line hack or a major refactor. |
| 01:51 |
|
pmichaud |
that's probably a better short-term solution to the lack of Positional support |
| 01:51 |
|
pmichaud |
the only major refactor I know of at the moment is the lazy iterator |
| 01:51 |
|
pmichaud |
and if I can't put it through quickly, I'll jsut go back to eagerness for now |
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| 01:51 |
|
pmichaud |
I know that many people are eager for working lazy iterators :) |
| 01:51 |
|
sjohnson |
TimToady: what do you think about a for (@array) copy { stuff; } syntax, for making $_ copied and not by reference |
| 01:52 |
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| 01:52 |
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pmichaud |
sjohnson: for @array -> $_ is copy { stuff; } |
| 01:52 |
|
pmichaud |
(already exists) |
| 01:52 |
|
colomon |
pmichaud: Again I will offer to be a (possibly dumb) sounding board for lazy iterator musings, too. :) |
| 01:52 |
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| 01:52 |
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pmichaud |
colomon: at this stage it's more an issue of me sitting down with the code and grinding through it |
| 01:53 |
|
colomon |
pmichaud: gotcha. |
| 01:53 |
|
sjohnson |
pmichaud: i meant without having to state $_ if you are using $_ |
| 01:53 |
|
sjohnson |
just a thought / suggestion... |
| 01:54 |
|
sjohnson |
kinda like how for (@array) { } # doesn't need for my $_ |
| 01:56 |
|
pmichaud |
I don't think it's a worthwhile shortcut |
| 01:57 |
|
pmichaud |
(but that's just my opinion) |
| 01:57 |
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| 01:58 |
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pmichaud |
I don't find that "-> $_ is copy" really needs its own shortcut. |
| 01:59 |
|
sjohnson |
i think great shortcuts like that pave the way for cool obfuscated code, and a bit easier writing in some cases. but that's just my opinion too :] |
| 02:00 |
|
sjohnson |
i love those implied $_ thingies |
| 02:00 |
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wayland76 |
Well, TimToady has done his best to get rid of a lot of the implied $_ :) |
| 02:03 |
|
wayland76 |
No, I exaggerate. But he's gotten rid of a lot of the functions that do that by default. |
| 02:03 |
|
sjohnson |
i wonder if he'll like my idea. *crosses fingers* |
| 02:04 |
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pmichaud |
afk for a while |
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diakopter |
hugme: hug me |
| 02:18 |
|
diakopter |
ok |
| 02:20 |
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sjohnson |
hugme: hug diakopter |
| 02:23 |
|
diakopter |
heh |
| 02:24 |
|
sjohnson |
looks like we ran out of love quota |
| 02:24 |
|
diakopter |
sigh. netsplit again. |
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|
* colomon |
is dreading heading downstairs to see why the house's main server is not reachable from any of the other machines... |
| 02:30 |
|
sjohnson |
diakopter: i feel like we're drifting apart |
| 02:31 |
|
diakopter |
sjohnson: orly? |
| 02:32 |
|
diakopter |
lovely. I'm even split from chanserv. |
| 02:32 |
|
diakopter |
freenode: be fixed |
| 02:36 |
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sjohnson |
diakopter: *sad face* |
| 02:36 |
|
sjohnson |
hard to get serious with such huge irc buffer interruptions |
| 02:37 |
|
diakopter |
:) |
| 02:37 |
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sjohnson |
diakopter: since no perl chat is going on just yet... i was wondering if you know anything about if it's illegal to take things from a landfill |
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sjohnson |
like, car batteries citizens think are dead, but just need a recharge and could be sold 2nd hand |
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diakopter |
depends who owns the landfill, I guess |
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colomon |
perhaps I'm too cynical, but taking reusable things from a landfill sounds like one of those things that's such an obvious good that it almost certainly is against the law or something. |
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wayland76 |
It is against the law here in Australia |
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wayland76 |
(I think it's health measures = insurance that causes the problem) |
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wayland76 |
There are guys, though, who ask people for things off their trailers before they're put into landfill |
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PerlJam |
Does anyone know if there's a document somewhere that lists the things that Rakudo needs from Parrot? |
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diakopter |
PerlJam: the ROADMAP in rakudo ng |
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diakopter |
has some of them |
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PerlJam |
Let me rephrase ... Does anyone know if there's an *updated* document that lists the things that Rakudo needs from Parrot? :) |
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diakopter |
an hour or two ago, I asked pmichaud about that here |
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diakopter |
and he replied diakopter: +1 |
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PerlJam |
okay. Just checking. I'm reading through the logs of #parrotsketch from Sunday. I just got to the point where they're talking about focusing on a successful Rakudo* release |
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diakopter |
TimToady recommended reading that too; perhaps I will |
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diakopter |
WHOA long |
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Wolfman2000 |
...how exactly does one get "throttled" out of a room? |
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diakopter |
I guess sending too many messages to it |
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spinclad |
Wolfman2000: doing a large cut-and-paste into the room, where your irc client doesn't do its own rate-limiting (say to 1 line/sec) |
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diakopter |
(but if you weren't sending anything, freenode glitches) |
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colomon |
PerlJam: where are the logs of #parrotsketch? |
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PerlJam |
http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2009-12-13 |
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JimmyZ |
http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2009-12-13 |
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Wolfman2000 |
spinclad: I wasn't doing a large cut and paste |
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JimmyZ |
irclog? |
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spinclad |
Wolfman2000: dunno then |
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spinclad |
vantage number one of holding such a meeting online: everyone can read the WHOLE THING. |
| 03:08 |
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* diakopter |
sets aside more than 20 minutes to read the #parrotsketch irclog |
| 03:08 |
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spinclad |
(it lasted four hours of its scheduled three.) |
| 03:09 |
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* diakopter |
scrolls more quickly |
| 03:10 |
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PerlJam |
I wrote a short article for www.perl.com 4 or so years ago about Perl 6. Back then it felt very much like Perl 6 was 2-3 years away from an alpha release. Today Perl 6 *still* feels like it's about 2-3 years away, but from a "beta" release (I wish I had a good way to calibrate my Perl6-sense) |
| 03:10 |
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diakopter |
lol. kid51: Ah! a customer has just walked thru the door! |
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diakopter |
I dunno, 3 years ago I felt like Perl 6 already had beta releases. |
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colomon |
PerlJam: really? it feels to me like a proper rakudo beta will be ready approx in late 2010. |
| 03:11 |
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spinclad |
PerlJam: that's progress (and there's been plenty) |
| 03:11 |
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PerlJam |
I wonder if several someones could estimate the number of person-months needed to finish Perl 6, then perhaps we could tap into the wisdom of crowds for a good answer. |
| 03:12 |
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spinclad |
colomon: it might depend on whether a good beta has to run nonglacially |
| 03:12 |
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diakopter |
PerlJam: I assume you found http://nopaste.snit.ch/19067 |
| 03:12 |
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PerlJam |
colomon: What do you see "Rakudo Beta" having that "Rakudo *" does not? |
| 03:12 |
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spinclad |
PerlJam: 'finish'? |
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colomon |
I really think the speed thing will work itself over the next year. |
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PerlJam |
spinclad: you know what I mean. (or should) |
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colomon |
PerlJam: BigInts and FatRats. fully working (if not threaded) hyper operators. things like that. |
| 03:13 |
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PerlJam |
"finish to the degree that ordinary programming folk would call the language "done" or "ready" " |
| 03:13 |
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spinclad |
'good enough to call done' |
| 03:13 |
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diakopter |
PerlJam: 'finish'? to the Synopses as they are today? a few 2<<10 person-months |
| 03:14 |
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colomon |
Also, I'm starting to doubt that even the worst of the speed issues will be finished by R*, so those too. |
| 03:14 |
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diakopter |
PerlJam: I assume you found http://nopaste.snit.ch/19067 |
| 03:15 |
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PerlJam |
diakopter: oh, I haven't seen that yet. |
| 03:16 |
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diakopter |
http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parr[…]9-12-13#i_1832393 |
| 03:16 |
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PerlJam |
yeah, I'm too easily side tracked and I haven't read that far yet :) |
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PerlJam |
It's funny, but the stuff on the Parrot Roadmap spreadsheet that's slated for 2.3 and 2.6 feels like it should be in focus for 2.0. But I guess it's just a question of resources. |
| 03:19 |
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PerlJam |
s/stuff/some of the stuff/ |
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* diakopter |
notes with interest that "eliminate Perl dependency" is scheduled to be dropped from the roadmap |
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diakopter |
parrot 2.3 scheduled for release in April 2010 |
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diakopter |
mid-April, it seems |
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diakopter |
so it seems the goals for that release (including the 2.0 goals) are: |
| 03:30 |
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diakopter |
1) solve TT389 - fix :anon, :method (from Allison's last two comments, looks like a few tens of person-hours - my blind guess, including project overhead) |
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diakopter |
2) solve TT566 - looks like pmichaud already (today) did this |
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diakopter |
3) same for TT568 |
| 03:33 |
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diakopter |
& 567 I mean |
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diakopter |
2) TT592 - write documentation for parrot debugger. I suspect I speak for most when I conjecture that that will slip in light of the other priorities |
| 03:36 |
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diakopter |
3) fix/extend the garbage collector - TT607/616 - a few thousand person-hours? I don't know. |
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diakopter |
4) subroutine (and transitive ones) exit handlers. a few hundred person-hours, order of magnitude guess. |
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diakopter |
looks like native-type-lexicals got pushed to Oct 2010 |
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spinclad |
:( |
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diakopter |
along with async I/O and constant data structures |
| 03:40 |
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diakopter |
while concurrency was sent to Jan 2011 |
| 03:41 |
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diakopter |
(it was already set to then, I should say) |
| 03:43 |
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diakopter |
note; here was the Nov 5 list of needs: http://lists.parrot.org/piperm[…]ember/003223.html |
| 03:43 |
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diakopter |
PerlJam: I agree it's a question (issue) of resources. |
| 03:46 |
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diakopter |
I'd be curious to know each contributor's 90% confidence interval of how many person-hours they have available to contribute to parrot *coding* (debugging/writing/analysis, not IRC) between now and mid-April |
| 03:47 |
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PerlJam |
diakopter: that would be interesting to know. |
| 03:47 |
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diakopter |
and I don't mean cage-cleaners |
| 03:48 |
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diakopter |
(no offense to them, of course; they're just as crucial, as always, just not as on the critical path here) |
| 03:48 |
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diakopter |
OMG MORE NETSPLITS |
| 03:53 |
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colomon |
#parrotsketch is awesome. |
| 03:53 |
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diakopter |
colomon: do you mean the irclogger? |
| 03:53 |
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diakopter |
:) |
| 03:53 |
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colomon |
I mean the log. |
| 03:53 |
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PerlJam |
colomon: #parrotsketch is awesome if you like silence. |
| 03:54 |
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PerlJam |
:-) |
| 03:54 |
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colomon |
the meeting, eh? |
| 03:55 |
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colomon |
it feels really good to know they're planning on focusing on making Rakudo * a success. |
| 03:56 |
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PerlJam |
#ps only has any meaningful activity about 2% of the time (except this past week where it was more like 5%) |
| 03:57 |
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PerlJam |
Yes, it's good that they are focusing on Rakudo* |
| 03:58 |
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* diakopter |
confused=> allison: we have very few languages in a "finished" state |
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diakopter |
open question: is Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt ever a good thing? |
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spinclad |
diakopter: when they are accurate perceptions |
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PerlJam |
diakopter: FUD is a good thing when it's working for you and not against you. |
| 04:05 |
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diakopter |
heh |
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spinclad |
they are easily transplanted without their roots, though, and when mass-cultivated do great harm. |
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Wolfman2000 |
I'm guessing Freenode is glitchy tonight. |
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hejki |
i'd say dwimmy |
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hejki |
like @freenode».split |
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| 06:51 |
|
sjohnson |
they need to do way instain netsplits> |
| 06:53 |
|
sjohnson |
who kill their connections.. because these irc users cannot fright back? |
| 06:54 |
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| 06:55 |
|
Su-Shee |
good morning. |
| 07:09 |
|
spinclad |
.oO( 'they need to do away with instant netsplits' ) |
| 07:10 |
|
sjohnson |
what does oO do? |
| 07:10 |
|
spinclad |
sjohnson++ # NOMOR NETSPLITZ! |
| 07:10 |
|
spinclad |
oO is the think operator |
| 07:11 |
|
spinclad |
it also takes { } if you like |
| 07:11 |
|
sjohnson |
what exactly does thinking do? |
| 07:11 |
|
spinclad |
thinking makes pictures in your head |
| 07:11 |
|
spinclad |
warning: do not believe them all |
| 07:12 |
|
sjohnson |
.oO( 'how can I avoid having to work for a living' ) |
| 07:12 |
|
spinclad |
.oO( 'is a constructor of thunks' ) |
| 07:13 |
|
spinclad |
.oO( 'avoid work' <== 'want not' ) |
| 07:14 |
|
spinclad |
otoh |
| 07:14 |
|
spinclad |
.oO( 'want not' ==><== 'want Perl 6' ) |
| 07:15 |
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| 07:24 |
|
spinclad |
mm. huffman clearly calls for the .otOh operator |
| 07:27 |
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| 07:27 |
|
flip214 |
HELO |
| 07:27 |
|
flip214 |
or maybe better EHLO |
| 07:29 |
|
sjohnson |
HELO flip214 |
| 07:31 |
|
flip214 |
Is anyone interested in a NULL PMC Access here, or should I just file a rakudobug? |
| 07:31 |
|
Tene |
http://blog.plover.com/prog/burritos.html |
| 07:31 |
|
Tene |
>< |
| 07:32 |
|
flip214 |
I've got it down to 2 files with a few bytes each |
| 07:32 |
|
Tene |
.title |
| 07:32 |
|
phenny |
Tene: The Universe of Discourse : Monads are like burritos |
| 07:32 |
|
moritz_ |
good morning |
| 07:33 |
|
Tene |
HI MORITZ |
| 07:33 |
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| 07:33 |
|
flip214 |
220 IRC server ready |
| 07:34 |
|
flip214 |
Ok, as no one jumps up and says "me, please" I'll just file a bug |
| 07:41 |
|
moritz_ |
hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 15: .pick your game http://perl6advent.wordpress.c[…]5-pick-your-game/ |
| 07:41 |
|
hugme |
moritz_: You need to register with freenode first |
| 07:41 |
|
moritz_ |
hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 15: .pick your game http://perl6advent.wordpress.c[…]5-pick-your-game/ |
| 07:41 |
|
* hugme |
hugs moritz_; tweet delivered |
| 07:56 |
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frettled |
Good post-morning! |
| 09:04 |
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Supaplex |
greetings frettled |
| 09:20 |
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| 09:20 |
|
masak |
oh hai, #perl6 |
| 09:20 |
|
moritz_ |
\o |
| 09:20 |
|
vamped |
o/ |
| 09:20 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 09:23 |
|
moritz_ |
can we somehow teach the overview posting not to send pingbacks to the other blog posts? |
| 09:23 |
|
moritz_ |
(on the advent calendar, that is) |
| 09:23 |
|
moritz_ |
they look rather spammy, which is why I deleted most of them manually |
| 09:24 |
|
sjohnson |
y0 |
| 09:24 |
|
frettled |
omgitsmasak |
| 09:24 |
|
masak |
moritz_: good thinking. blog posts not sending pingbacks to other posts on the same blog sounds like a FAQ. question is what to google for. |
| 09:25 |
|
masak |
frettled: "Please, please, don't make a fuss. I'm just plain Yogurt." :) |
| 09:25 |
|
frettled |
heh :) |
| 09:27 |
|
moritz_ |
http://codex.wordpress.org/Int[…]logging#Pingbacks not all that helpful |
| 09:28 |
|
frettled |
other than admitting that pingbacks also are of the Beast. |
| 09:29 |
|
sjohnson |
hows it going frettled |
| 09:30 |
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| 09:30 |
|
moritz_ |
found the option, and disabled it |
| 09:30 |
|
moritz_ |
Settings -> Discussion |
| 09:31 |
|
flip214 |
EHLO Back-aga.in |
| 09:41 |
|
frettled |
sjohnson: not too bad, but way too little time for things that are Perl. |
| 09:50 |
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| 09:51 |
|
masak |
"If Perl 6 didn't exist, someone would have invented it by now." |
| 09:51 |
|
masak |
this is my thought when backlogging over yesterday's discussion about P5 specializing in keeping backwards compatibility, and P6 specializing in breaking it. |
| 09:53 |
|
masak |
the people with the "research project" meme are right insofar as P6 being a great enabler of the idea of "what happens if we break the stuff that needs breaking?" |
| 09:53 |
|
masak |
"Perl 6: Perl without the brakes." :P |
| 09:57 |
|
vamped |
too many things in society exists solely to not break backwards compatibility. Way to go Perl 6! |
| 09:59 |
|
frettled |
heh |
| 10:00 |
|
frettled |
masak: I had similar thoughts a few days ago: I wondered where Perl 5 would be if not for Perl 6. |
| 10:01 |
|
masak |
frettled: it might be doing pretty well, it's hard to say. I think Moose would be affected quite a bit in some way. |
| 10:02 |
|
masak |
someone might want to make an alternative history blog post. :) |
| 10:02 |
|
frettled |
From my perspective, it looks like Perl 5 got vitalized by the Perl 6 development. |
| 10:02 |
|
masak |
I think so too. |
| 10:02 |
|
moritz_ |
if there was no Perl 6, Larry would have tried to mold Perl 5 into something less "broken" |
| 10:02 |
|
frettled |
moritz_: and we'd call it Perl 6! |
| 10:03 |
|
vamped |
if Perl 5.10 is enough, then why bother with 5.11 and 5.12 and ... ? I think that in a few years time, once Perl 6 is up, stable, with good modules, many will convert. |
| 10:03 |
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| 10:03 |
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moritz_ |
vamped: because Perl 6 is not Perl 5, and will never be |
| 10:03 |
|
frettled |
vamped: It's not _that_ long ago that I looked at the list of improvements from 5.6 to 5.8 and though «okay, so Unicode support is better, but …» |
| 10:03 |
|
moritz_ |
and there are not only people who like Perl, but also people who like Perl 5 |
| 10:05 |
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| 10:06 |
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frettled |
and there are weird guys like me, who like both Perl 5 and Perl 6 |
| 10:07 |
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| 10:07 |
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vamped |
@moritz: yes. what i'm saying though is that many people who love Perl 5 will love Perl 6 too. |
| 10:08 |
|
moritz_ |
vamped: I know. But there also many people who won't love Perl 6 |
| 10:08 |
|
moritz_ |
and remember, this is open source and volunteer driven. There's just no way to say "we discontinue $a in favor of $b" when people want to work on $a. |
| 10:08 |
|
* masak |
.oO( good thing we booted lambdabot ) |
| 10:09 |
|
vamped |
agrees with @moritz completely, while struggling to find the logic. |
| 10:09 |
|
moritz_ |
vamped: we're not on twitter, no need to prefix nicknames with an @ |
| 10:09 |
|
moritz_ |
that looks like I'm an array :-) |
| 10:10 |
|
vamped |
maybe you have multiple personalities? lol. ok. |
| 10:10 |
|
masak |
moritz_-clones! |
| 10:10 |
|
masak |
we'll order 10, and get the test suite finished early! |
| 10:10 |
|
moritz_ |
vamped: maybe I have, but on IRC I try to hide them beneath a unified interface :-) |
| 10:14 |
|
flip214 |
is there no accessor for them? not even private? |
| 10:15 |
|
moritz_ |
private, yes |
| 10:19 |
|
masak |
I'm always fascinated by different types of "X hijacking", mostly because the exploits are clever-ish. http://haacked.com/archive/200[…]on-hijacking.aspx |
| 10:20 |
|
masak |
do you think that people will send things serialized with .perl in Perl 6, and suffer for it? |
| 10:21 |
|
moritz_ |
I hope they won't, because it requires eval() in the receiver side |
| 10:21 |
|
moritz_ |
which is very dangerous anyway |
| 10:22 |
|
masak |
AFAIU, that's the way it's traditionally been done with JSON. |
| 10:22 |
|
masak |
(and yes, it's bad) |
| 10:22 |
|
masak |
a JSON parser for JavaScript wasn't written until quite recently. |
| 10:25 |
|
moritz_ |
I think firefox has a sandbox-eval that allows only side-effect free evaluation, or some such |
| 10:26 |
|
masak |
which amounts to using the JavaScript parser as a JSON parser, and smacking it over the fingers if it tries something else. |
| 10:26 |
|
moritz_ |
right |
| 10:26 |
|
moritz_ |
I wonder if we can have a :pure option to eval() in Perl 6 |
| 10:27 |
|
masak |
sounds like a fun job for a module. :) |
| 10:27 |
|
moritz_ |
sounds like poking deep into the compiler, to me |
| 10:27 |
|
masak |
yeah, probably. |
| 10:30 |
|
moritz_ |
and while glancing over the page you linked to, I think the real problem in there is that something eval()s the js. The rest is "just" a clever environment manipulation to use that for mischief |
| 10:34 |
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| 10:34 |
|
masak |
moritz_: indeed. |
| 10:35 |
|
masak |
moritz_: November the Wiki uses files, .perl and eval in lieu of a database. not because we think it's a good solution, but because it was the simplest thing that could possibly work. |
| 10:36 |
|
masak |
moritz_: so there's already a precedent in Perl 6 culture of someone doing it wrong. :) |
| 10:40 |
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| 10:46 |
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spinclad |
it would be a bit safer to eval the .perl in a constrained language, that can only build :pure constructs |
| 10:47 |
|
masak |
i.e. a standalone parser. |
| 10:47 |
|
spinclad |
yup |
| 10:47 |
|
masak |
P6ON :) |
| 10:50 |
|
spinclad |
a standalone grammar-plus-actions, anyway |
| 10:51 |
|
spinclad |
(the grammar engine being the ocean this fish swims in) |
| 10:55 |
|
masak |
hm, so subroutines default to :(@_), but &map defaults to :($_ is rw), correct? |
| 10:55 |
|
masak |
why is the former readonly but not the latter? |
| 10:55 |
|
masak |
hm, it's not &map, is it? it's anon blocks in general. |
| 10:58 |
|
masak |
I guess one motivation for making anon blocks readonly goes like this: map and for are equivalent, and we still would like to be able to do things like `$_ += 2 for @stuff;` |
| 10:58 |
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| 11:01 |
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| 11:03 |
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spinclad |
otoh you can say `@stuff .= map: *+2`; that would seem to ease the call for mutating mappers somewhat |
| 11:07 |
|
masak |
troo. |
| 11:07 |
|
spinclad |
although that replaces @stuff rather than replacing each element (which might matter); other than that i think it's equally expressive. |
| 11:08 |
|
spinclad |
it just substitues an effective '@stuff is rw' for '$stuffing is rw' |
| 11:11 |
|
masak |
heh. :) |
| 11:11 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: if the things you store in November are simple enough, you could use JSON - at the cost of a speed hit, of course |
| 11:11 |
|
masak |
moritz_: mm. my mental November ROADMAP wants to try Squerl. |
| 11:12 |
|
spinclad |
but discards any aliasing on the @stuff[*]'s |
| 11:13 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: Whatever :-) |
| 11:14 |
|
spinclad |
.oO( ROADMAP discards aliasing ) # nonono |
| 11:16 |
|
* spinclad |
thinks november is ripe for squerl |
| 11:17 |
|
masak |
and, possibly, the other way around. :) |
| 11:17 |
|
masak |
sushi & |
| 11:18 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: blocks default to -> Object $_ is ref = OUTER::<$_> or so, subroutines to *@_ |
| 11:19 |
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| 11:19 |
|
Juerd |
http://juerd.nl/i/017ac09af78e[…]52e3d6236b18e.png |
| 11:19 |
|
Juerd |
sslh is a green technology. |
| 11:19 |
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| 11:21 |
|
* spinclad |
-> bed & |
| 11:22 |
|
Juerd |
Advent day 15: «my @dice = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6); my $index = int (rand() * scalar @dice); print $dice[$index] . "\n";» |
| 11:22 |
|
Juerd |
That's unfair to Perl 5 |
| 11:23 |
|
Juerd |
my @dice = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) = print $dice[rand @dice] . "\n"; |
| 11:23 |
|
Juerd |
s/= print/; print/ |
| 11:23 |
|
Juerd |
For the single pick, $dice[rand @dice] isn't that much worse than @dice.pick |
| 11:24 |
|
moritz_ |
right |
| 11:24 |
|
Juerd |
The real big benefit comes when you pick multiple things, because in Perl 5 that generally is a lot of administration if you want to avoid picking the same thing twice. |
| 11:26 |
|
BinGOs |
print +(1..6)[rand 6], "\n"; |
| 11:26 |
|
Juerd |
«for <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $suit» I love this use of the unicode characters. |
| 11:29 |
|
Juerd |
"Juerd Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation." |
| 11:29 |
|
Juerd |
I didn't say that :) |
| 11:29 |
|
Juerd |
wordpress-- |
| 11:30 |
|
moritz_ |
and approved. |
| 11:50 |
|
carlin |
could someone with access merge the dupe RT #71288 with RT #64688 |
| 11:52 |
|
moritz_ |
done |
| 11:52 |
|
moritz_ |
carlin: thanks |
| 11:57 |
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| 12:05 |
|
flip214 |
what, that easy? |
| 12:05 |
|
flip214 |
"could someone with knowledge please fix my outstanding tickets?" kthxb |
| 12:07 |
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| 12:08 |
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flip214 |
Sorry for being silly today |
| 12:09 |
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| 12:11 |
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Juerd |
Heh |
| 12:18 |
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| 12:37 |
|
hejki |
rakudo: my @dice = 1..6; say @dice.pick(2); |
| 12:37 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: 64 |
| 12:38 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: say (1..6).pick(2).join: ', ' |
| 12:38 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: 6, 2 |
| 12:39 |
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| 12:52 |
|
masak |
flip214++ # "could someone with knowledge" meme |
| 12:52 |
|
moritz_ |
masak++ # handing out karma while no karma is being recorded |
| 12:52 |
|
JimmyZ |
xinming: ping |
| 12:52 |
|
masak |
Could someone with knowledge please make sure ng lands? kthxbai |
| 12:53 |
|
carlin |
mubot: karma masak |
| 12:53 |
|
mubot |
masak has a karma of 5 |
| 12:53 |
|
masak |
:) |
| 12:53 |
|
masak |
masak++ |
| 12:53 |
|
masak |
mubot: karma masak |
| 12:53 |
|
mubot |
masak has a karma of 6 |
| 12:53 |
|
masak |
that's dangerous. :) |
| 12:53 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: karma |
| 12:53 |
|
mubot |
has not yet made an impact on this world |
| 12:53 |
|
flip214 |
masak++ ++ ++ ++ ++ |
| 12:53 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: karma moritz |
| 12:53 |
|
mubot |
moritz has a karma of 7 |
| 12:53 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: karma moritz_ |
| 12:53 |
|
mubot |
moritz has a karma of 7 |
| 12:53 |
|
xinming |
JimmyZ: pong? |
| 12:53 |
|
moritz_ |
are these aliased? |
| 12:53 |
|
masak |
flip214: no whitespace before postfix ops :) |
| 12:53 |
|
flip214 |
mubot: karma masak |
| 12:53 |
|
mubot |
masak has a karma of 7 |
| 12:53 |
|
xinming |
oops, I'm an op. >_< |
| 12:53 |
|
moritz_ |
moritz++ |
| 12:54 |
|
carlin |
you could always make evalbot give you karma anyway... |
| 12:54 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: karma moritz_ |
| 12:54 |
|
mubot |
moritz has a karma of 8 |
| 12:54 |
|
carlin |
rakudo: say "masak++" |
| 12:54 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: masak++ |
| 12:54 |
|
flip214 |
rakudo: say 'flip214++'; |
| 12:54 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 12:54 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: flip214++ |
| 12:54 |
|
moritz_ |
isn't that flip215? :-) |
| 12:54 |
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| 12:54 |
|
masak |
carlin: the punishment for making the evalbot give you karma should be that the karmabot kicks you. |
| 12:54 |
|
moritz_ |
flip214: you should change your nick with every karma increment and decrement :-) |
| 12:54 |
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| 12:55 |
|
flip214 |
don't know who I am today |
| 12:58 |
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| 13:03 |
|
frettled |
moritz_: brilliant :) |
| 13:05 |
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| 13:10 |
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| 13:11 |
|
flip214 |
mubot: karma |
| 13:11 |
|
mubot |
wordpress: -1 | trace: -4 | thowe: 1 | state: -1 | sjohnson: 1 | pugs: 1 | pmurias: 14 | pmichaud: 1 | perl6advent: 3 | p6eval: -1 | nothingmuch: 1 | |
| 13:11 |
|
flip214 |
and I though that I got some, too .... |
| 13:12 |
|
flip214 |
but masak isn't listed, so that's probably ok |
| 13:13 |
|
masak |
hm... I'm philosophically opposed to 'karma lists'. |
| 13:13 |
|
masak |
but YMMV. |
| 13:13 |
|
moritz_ |
p6eval++ |
| 13:13 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: karma p6eval |
| 13:13 |
|
mubot |
p6eval has a karma of 0 |
| 13:13 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: karma foobar |
| 13:13 |
|
mubot |
foobar has not yet made an impact on this world |
| 13:14 |
|
frettled |
mubot: mu |
| 13:14 |
|
mubot |
Sorry, I don't understand that command |
| 13:14 |
|
frettled |
that's okay |
| 13:15 |
|
masak |
it should reply 'I object!' |
| 13:16 |
|
moritz_ |
:-) |
| 13:16 |
|
moritz_ |
mubot: or "I Object!" |
| 13:16 |
|
mubot |
Sorry, I don't understand that command |
| 13:20 |
|
rodi |
"I, Object" |
| 13:23 |
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IllvilJa |
Having the option of supplying a 'weight' function to the .pick() method to dynamically manipulate the probability of each element to be .picked() would be very useful. Dynamically letting individual elements get a probability of zero to exempt them from being picked would be useful too. Calls for me writing a module I guess ;-). |
| 13:23 |
|
* IllvilJa |
curses the fact there is so much to do and so little time... |
| 13:24 |
|
moritz_ |
well, time doesn't just exist, you have to take the time to do things |
| 13:26 |
|
IllvilJa |
I have to implode into a black hole, and create a little big bang and associated universe with eternal amount of time which I use to write up all kinds of fun code and then return back with the goodies... Should work. Only a few technical details to sort out. |
| 13:27 |
|
IllvilJa |
Like becoming a person again after being a black hole for 0 seconds/1 infinity.... or avoiding that the rest of the world get's sucked in in the process (which really would be in the way for my code writing...) |
| 13:27 |
|
moritz_ |
and in the time you wait for the money to be allocated, you can write a few Perl 6 modules. Sounds like a great plan :-) |
| 13:27 |
|
moritz_ |
(the money you need for buying the equiment to build a black hole, of course) |
| 13:28 |
|
coke |
moritz_: I saw that episode of SG:1. apparently you can just get it over the internet. |
| 13:28 |
|
masak |
IllvilJa: the 'weight' feature you're requesting is already spec'd. |
| 13:28 |
|
masak |
IllvilJa: but it's spec'd on Bags, and Rakudo doesn't have those yet. |
| 13:28 |
|
colomon |
Was just writing that in a comment reply. ;) |
| 13:28 |
|
moritz_ |
coke: somebody wrote the same bullshit as I did? :-) |
| 13:29 |
|
IllvilJa |
masak: sounds very good! |
| 13:29 |
|
IllvilJa |
Every day is a teacher about perl 6 :-) |
| 13:30 |
|
IllvilJa |
Ok, time to go pick up my daughter at daycare. |
| 13:30 |
|
IllvilJa |
CU later. |
| 13:30 |
|
IllvilJa |
(and thx for swift replies) |
| 13:30 |
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| 13:53 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
*yawn* morning |
| 13:53 |
|
masak |
o/ |
| 13:54 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
Guess my last topic choice was a good one. |
| 13:54 |
|
colomon |
getting a lot of interest, for sure. |
| 13:54 |
|
carlin |
Wolfman2000: I told you you picked a good topic ;-) |
| 13:55 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...of course, now I realized I should have made a Bingo example, but then I remembered that I don't recall the best way to turn 5 lists verticle. |
| 13:55 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
vertical* |
| 13:55 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
I'll let someone else deal with that. |
| 13:55 |
|
colomon |
ha! bingo never occurred to me as an example, but it's keen. |
| 13:56 |
|
slavik |
if for and map are equivalent, is there a reason to have both? |
| 13:56 |
|
moritz_ |
yes |
| 13:56 |
|
slavik |
bah, chat window didn't scroll down, but question stands :) |
| 13:56 |
|
colomon |
anyone have recommendations for a linux rescue CD? my house's mian server appears to be hosed... |
| 13:56 |
|
colomon |
*main |
| 13:56 |
|
slavik |
moritz_: for what purpose? |
| 13:56 |
|
moritz_ |
colomon: grml |
| 13:56 |
|
slavik |
colomon: ubuntu/knoppix |
| 13:56 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
colomon: not familiar with rescue CDs |
| 13:57 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
but ubuntu for getting teh data is a good idea |
| 13:57 |
|
moritz_ |
slavik: timtowtdi. They read rather differently |
| 13:57 |
|
* Wolfman2000 |
would have done so for his dad's old laptop, but the motherboard just gives up after 3 minutes. |
| 13:57 |
|
masak |
they're of different grammatical category. |
| 13:57 |
|
masak |
map is a listop, for is a special statement form. |
| 13:58 |
|
moritz_ |
http://grml.org/download/ FWIW |
| 13:58 |
|
slavik |
I see, but other than that, there is no real difference? |
| 13:58 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: thanks, trying to figure out which version to download... |
| 13:59 |
|
moritz_ |
slavik: there is, if you have a list-thing which overrides map |
| 13:59 |
|
slavik |
I see |
| 14:00 |
|
slavik |
for grammars, is it possible to have a grammar act as a parser and output error messages if it doesn't properly match? |
| 14:00 |
|
moritz_ |
colomon: grml-medium should be enough for most recovery tasks (200MB download) |
| 14:00 |
|
slavik |
since you can define tokens, it could say what token it was expecting and what it got |
| 14:00 |
|
moritz_ |
slavik: yes |
| 14:00 |
|
slavik |
sweet |
| 14:00 |
|
moritz_ |
slavik: you can also give the tokens different names in the error message |
| 14:00 |
|
moritz_ |
with the :dba ("do business as") adverb |
| 14:01 |
|
slavik |
moritz_: is there a working example of this? |
| 14:01 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: token foo { :dba<bar> '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{ ' ~~ /<foo>/ |
| 14:01 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: downloading now. danke. |
| 14:01 |
|
moritz_ |
slavik: STD.pm is full of it :-) |
| 14:01 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: Unable to find regex 'bar'in regex |
| 14:01 |
|
rodi |
STD.pm has some nice error messages. |
| 14:02 |
|
rodi |
yeah, what moritz_ said. |
| 14:02 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: token foo { :dba('bar') '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{ ' ~~ /<foo>/ |
| 14:02 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse 'bar', couldn't find final '}'in regex |
| 14:02 |
|
moritz_ |
wtf? |
| 14:04 |
|
moritz_ |
in master, src/parser/grammar.pg contains a :dba('...') |
| 14:04 |
|
moritz_ |
so I think it should work |
| 14:04 |
|
moritz_ |
ah |
| 14:04 |
|
moritz_ |
it actually worked |
| 14:04 |
|
moritz_ |
but I was confused that it gave an error message :-) |
| 14:05 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: token foo { :dba('block with curlies') '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{ ' ~~ /<foo>/ |
| 14:05 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse 'block with curlies', couldn't find final '}'in regex |
| 14:05 |
|
rodi |
wow, that's nifty. |
| 14:06 |
|
masak |
rakudo: token foo { :dba(block with curlies) '{' ~ '}' [\s+] }; '{ ' ~~ /<foo>/ |
| 14:06 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: Unable to parse block with curlies, couldn't find final '}'in regex |
| 14:06 |
|
rodi |
why does that work? |
| 14:07 |
|
slavik |
nice |
| 14:07 |
|
moritz_ |
that's a bit scary |
| 14:07 |
|
moritz_ |
it shouldn't :-) |
| 14:07 |
|
frettled |
Re: weighted pick() - I have this nagging feeling that it might be easyish to find a work-around for that. |
| 14:07 |
|
rodi |
I grok :dba<block with curlies> but not what masak wrote... |
| 14:07 |
|
PerlJam |
morning |
| 14:07 |
|
moritz_ |
rodi: it's a rakudo limitation, not spec |
| 14:07 |
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slavik |
what about token program { <statement>+ }; token statement { blah blah }, you get the idea |
| 14:08 |
|
PerlJam |
looking over the last several days of perl6 tweets, it seems that there are many more positive tweets about it. |
| 14:08 |
|
frettled |
IllvilJa: The problem with weighting pick() (or some other method), is how to fribble the notation properly. |
| 14:08 |
|
slavik |
and out of multiple possibilities for a statement to tell you what it is expecting |
| 14:08 |
|
moritz_ |
slavik: you mean like STD.pm does it? |
| 14:08 |
|
slavik |
moritz_: don't know haven't seen it :) |
| 14:09 |
|
rodi |
moritz_: gotcha, okay. |
| 14:09 |
|
slavik |
moritz_: idea is to have a parser for code where you only define grammar and then just walk the tree :P |
| 14:09 |
|
slavik |
to be able to write an interpreter in perl6 by defining the grammar and then walking the smart matcher object |
| 14:10 |
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masak |
PerlJam: definitely a positive trend since the P6AC, yes. |
| 14:10 |
|
jnthn |
o/ |
| 14:11 |
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moritz_ |
slavik: it's probably easier to define action/reduction methods to build some kind of AST as an intermediate format |
| 14:11 |
|
slavik |
hmm |
| 14:11 |
|
moritz_ |
otherwise each and every grammar change means changes to the interpreter kernel |
| 14:11 |
|
moritz_ |
and that's really painful |
| 14:14 |
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| 14:23 |
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colomon |
Ack. My server seems to turn over and die in the process of booting Linux -- whether the installed CentOS or grml off the CD. :( |
| 14:29 |
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moritz_ |
run a memcheck |
| 14:29 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: is that on the grml CD, do you know? |
| 14:30 |
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moritz_ |
might be, as a boot option |
| 14:30 |
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| 14:30 |
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moritz_ |
you can press F1, F2 etc. to get online help of the boot options |
| 14:30 |
|
moritz_ |
(while in the boot menu, that is) |
| 14:31 |
|
* colomon |
had just gone to thinking about how to rebuild the svn server on the "media" box... |
| 14:33 |
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| 14:33 |
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masak |
http://www.polettix.it/perlett[…]id_perl-5-parsing |
| 14:34 |
|
masak |
by some astounding coincidence, STD.pm currently weighs in at 5600 lines of code. but I wouldn't call it ad-hoc. :) |
| 14:35 |
|
colomon |
the good news: grml does indeed have memtest86, even in grml-medium. |
| 14:35 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
is there something magic about 5600? |
| 14:35 |
|
colomon |
the bad news: just selecting memtest86 to run kills the system before memtest can actually start. :( |
| 14:37 |
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| 14:38 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...I'm starting to wonder if a primarily solo developer of a git app is supposed to be able to manage...right now 5 branches on his own. |
| 14:39 |
|
moritz_ |
colomon: so it's CPU, motherboard or RAM. :/ |
| 14:41 |
|
moritz_ |
I have no idea where this 5600 comes from, and how fair or unfair it is to compare parsing code with BNF grammars |
| 14:41 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: now we get to find out how well those svn backups I've been making work in practice.... |
| 14:48 |
|
masak |
grrr! every time I send email to the p6u list, I get annoying an whitelisting email from some Russian guy. |
| 14:48 |
|
moritz_ |
aye |
| 14:48 |
|
masak |
wait, no. Ukrainian. |
| 14:48 |
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| 14:49 |
|
masak |
I've written about it before on p6u, asking to have him removed. but either no-one whoz op is listening, or the guy keeps coming back. |
| 14:49 |
|
moritz_ |
the latter |
| 14:50 |
|
moritz_ |
he was gone for a while |
| 14:50 |
|
masak |
really? then I'll write to p6u again. |
| 14:51 |
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| 14:51 |
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moritz_ |
don't |
| 14:51 |
|
moritz_ |
write to perl6-users-owner |
| 14:52 |
|
masak |
thanks -- I'll do that. |
| 14:52 |
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| 14:53 |
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masak |
email sent. |
| 14:53 |
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| 14:53 |
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moritz_ |
what's the opposite of an "optical dense medium"? |
| 14:53 |
|
moritz_ |
I somehow don't think that "sparse" is the right word :-) |
| 14:53 |
|
frettled |
muidem esned lacitpo |
| 14:54 |
|
* moritz_ |
.frettles flip |
| 14:54 |
|
moritz_ |
erm |
| 14:56 |
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| 14:56 |
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masak |
moritz_: 'thin'? |
| 14:56 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...okay, no clue how I got disconnected |
| 14:58 |
|
* moritz_ |
just took "medium with smaller refractive index" :/) |
| 14:59 |
|
pmichaud_ |
good morning, #perl6 |
| 14:59 |
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| 15:01 |
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| 15:02 |
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masak |
pmichaud_: good morning! |
| 15:03 |
|
masak |
moritz_: that works too. but 'optically thinner medium' sounds perfectly ok, at least. |
| 15:03 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...forgot to give the /back command. |
| 15:10 |
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| 15:10 |
|
frettled |
masak/moritz_: or «medium with a refraction index closer to 1» :D |
| 15:11 |
|
masak |
meh. |
| 15:11 |
|
frettled |
The terminology seems to be «less optically dense» and «more optically dense» |
| 15:11 |
|
frettled |
or «lower optical density» and «higher optical density» |
| 15:12 |
|
frettled |
lower or higher refraction index/index of refraction |
| 15:12 |
|
masak |
hokay. |
| 15:12 |
|
frettled |
and so on |
| 15:12 |
|
frettled |
We could of course introduce the term «undense». ;) |
| 15:13 |
|
pmichaud_ |
"optically like a fruitcake" and "optically like a mousse" |
| 15:13 |
|
frettled |
or moose |
| 15:14 |
|
moritz_ |
I don't think moose are so undense :-) |
| 15:14 |
|
frettled |
opaque like an idiot or transparent like a fool |
| 15:14 |
|
masak |
Perl 6 aims to be both :) |
| 15:15 |
|
masak |
The objects, for example, are opaque, so you can't look into them. |
| 15:15 |
|
masak |
But on the other hand, classes allow for great introspection. |
| 15:17 |
|
moritz_ |
so classes are fools? |
| 15:17 |
|
masak |
there's an OO in fool. :) |
| 15:18 |
|
masak |
but yes, I think classes are something of the court jester in programming. |
| 15:20 |
|
frettled |
:) |
| 15:21 |
|
pmichaud_ |
Wolfman2000++ # excellent advent post |
| 15:22 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
thanks pmichaud_ |
| 15:22 |
|
pmichaud_ |
at some point I'd like to see |
| 15:22 |
|
masak |
indeed, Wolfman2000++ |
| 15:22 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
Unfortunately, that looks like my last one. I gave up my last day to moritz_. |
| 15:22 |
|
pmichaud_ |
for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { @deck.push(...) } |
| 15:23 |
|
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| 15:23 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...does that actually work? |
| 15:23 |
|
masak |
aye. |
| 15:23 |
|
pmichaud_ |
rakudo: for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { say "$rank$suit"; } |
| 15:24 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: A♥A♣A♦A♠2♥2♣2♦2♠3♥3♣3♦3♠4♥4♣4♦4♠5♥5♣5♦5♠6♥6♣6♦6♠7♥7♣7♦7♠8♥8♣8♦8♠9♥9♣9♦9♠T♥T♣T♦T♠J♥J♣J♦J♠Q♥Q♣Q♦Q♠K♥K♣K♦K♠ |
| 15:24 |
|
masak |
ooh! idea for a poster: ideas/concepts in Perl 6, sorted by approximate abstraction level, with history descriptions of the languages which launched that particular feature, along with languages which took the idea further... if someone made such a poster, I'd surely buy it. |
| 15:24 |
|
masak |
if no-one volunteers, I'll make a github repo and start on it myself. |
| 15:24 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
rakudo: my @deck; for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { @deck.push(...); }; say @deck.pick(5).join(" "); |
| 15:24 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: Can't return outside a routinein Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>) |
| 15:24 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...right |
| 15:24 |
|
pmichaud_ |
well, I meant to have the Card.new in for the ... |
| 15:24 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
rakudo: my @deck; for <A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T J Q K> X <♥ ♣ ♦ ♠> -> $rank, $suit { @deck.push($rank ~ $suit); }; say @deck.pick(5).join(" "); |
| 15:25 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 7ef386: 4♠ 6♣ 7♦ 6♦ K♦ |
| 15:25 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
well, that works just as well. |
| 15:25 |
|
Juerd |
Sweet. |
| 15:25 |
|
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| 15:25 |
|
masak |
"Can't return outside a routine"? wtf? |
| 15:25 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
pmichaud_++ for what looks like an excellent use of the Cross Operator |
| 15:25 |
|
pmichaud_ |
Wolfman2000: here's the version I had... http://www.pmichaud.com/2009/p[…]lides/slide5.html |
| 15:25 |
|
jonasbn |
hello |
| 15:26 |
|
colomon |
masak: sounds cool, but I'd rather have an up-to-date periodic table of operators... :) |
| 15:26 |
|
moritz_ |
hi jonasbn |
| 15:26 |
|
Juerd |
Nah, let's stop updating old documents and keep producing new ones. |
| 15:26 |
|
masak |
colomon: I thought it was still fairly up-io-date... |
| 15:26 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, we talked about a perl6 hackathon in Copenhagen at some point |
| 15:26 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
The Z operator...it's some sort of zip thing, right? |
| 15:26 |
|
pmichaud_ |
yes |
| 15:26 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, I am ready to start organizing |
| 15:26 |
|
pmichaud_ |
jonasbn: excellent. what timeframe might we be looking at? |
| 15:26 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: infix:<Z> and &zip are synonyms. |
| 15:27 |
|
moritz_ |
and where will the hackathon be? :-) |
| 15:27 |
|
pmichaud_ |
"in Copenhagen" :-) |
| 15:27 |
|
masak |
Perl 6 hackathon in Copenhagen? woot! |
| 15:27 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
masak: I still don't quite get what it does. I'm guessing...since it's using the deck, take the name inside each deck, give it a value, and put those key pairs into the hash. |
| 15:27 |
|
masak |
let's use all of Copenhagen! |
| 15:28 |
|
pmichaud_ |
Wolfman2000: http://www.pmichaud.com/2009/p[…]ides/slide9a.html |
| 15:28 |
|
frettled |
jonasbn: \o/ |
| 15:28 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: @a Z @b produces @a[0], @b[0], @a[1], @b[1]... |
| 15:28 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
pmichaud_: your online slides don't exactly give an easy way of going to the next one |
| 15:28 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, well I have two agendas |
| 15:28 |
|
pmichaud_ |
start at http://www.pmichaud.com/2009/p[…]ides/slide12.html for an explanation |
| 15:29 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, one is to get a "Copenhagen" release |
| 15:29 |
|
pmichaud_ |
Wolfman2000: press "spacebar" or "N" to go to next slide |
| 15:29 |
|
colomon |
masak: don't think it's been updated in six months or so. I know for sure the S(equential) operators have been added since then, and I'm pretty sure others as well... have to look at the poster to figure out what else has changed. |
| 15:29 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, the second one is to do it in conjunction with our local open source conference |
| 15:29 |
|
pmichaud_ |
jonasbn: when is that? |
| 15:29 |
|
jonasbn |
which is called Open Source days |
| 15:29 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, in march 2010 |
| 15:29 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
gotcha |
| 15:30 |
|
pmichaud_ |
anyway, the code is explained starting with slide12.html |
| 15:30 |
|
pmichaud_ |
(I did this as a lightning talk) |
| 15:30 |
|
pmichaud_ |
jonasbn: march 2010 is _perfect_ |
| 15:30 |
|
pmichaud_ |
looks like march 5 + 6 |
| 15:30 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, 5th. and 6th. |
| 15:30 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, http://opensourcedays.org/2010/ |
| 15:30 |
|
masak |
jonasbn++ |
| 15:30 |
|
pmichaud_ |
masak, moritz: would you be able to make it then? |
| 15:31 |
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masak |
yes! |
| 15:31 |
|
jonasbn |
so now I just need to now what you require from me, the I will be the local liason |
| 15:31 |
|
pmichaud_ |
I might even have funding |
| 15:31 |
|
pmichaud_ |
(for others to attend) |
| 15:31 |
|
jonasbn |
or whatever the word is |
| 15:31 |
|
moritz_ |
pmichaud_: hard to tell, since I'm looking for a job these days |
| 15:31 |
|
moritz_ |
but at least there's nothing planned for march |
| 15:31 |
|
masak |
moritz_: plan it! :) |
| 15:32 |
|
moritz_ |
(but that's basically true for all dates in the first half of 2010) |
| 15:32 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, cph.pm has funds, so I just need to clear with the other guys |
| 15:32 |
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| 15:32 |
|
pmichaud_ |
jonasbn: that works too. |
| 15:32 |
|
jonasbn |
so how do you guys want me to go about this? |
| 15:32 |
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| 15:33 |
|
moritz_ |
jonasbn: yes! |
| 15:33 |
|
pmichaud_ |
jonasbn: tpf has been asking me about a perl6 hackathon |
| 15:33 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud_, great |
| 15:33 |
|
pmichaud_ |
so let me get back with them and suggest copenhagen as the location, assuming the dates + travel work out |
| 15:34 |
|
pmichaud_ |
I'll do that today + tomorrow, and send you an email later this week? (more) |
| 15:34 |
|
jonasbn |
okay, sounds good |
| 15:34 |
|
pmichaud_ |
in the meantime, have you discussed it with the open source days 2010 organizers, or do you need to do that? |
| 15:34 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
where exactly is Copenhagen? |
| 15:34 |
|
jonasbn |
I will write a proposal for the Open Source Days organizers |
| 15:34 |
|
pmichaud_ |
perfect |
| 15:35 |
|
moritz_ |
Wolfman2000: in Europe :-) |
| 15:35 |
|
jonasbn |
Wolfman2000, Capitol of Denmark, Scandinavia, Europe |
| 15:35 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
yeah, I can't make it. |
| 15:35 |
|
pmichaud_ |
Wolfman2000: too far to travel, or ... ? |
| 15:35 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
that, and I can't afford the time or money |
| 15:36 |
|
* Wolfman2000 |
is trying to become a high school math teacher in Wilmington, North Carolina, USA |
| 15:36 |
|
pmichaud_ |
there's also been discussion of putting together a rakudo* and parrot hackathon for the eastern u.s. |
| 15:36 |
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| 15:36 |
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pmichaud_ |
likely eastern pennsylvania (or something in that general vicinity) |
| 15:37 |
|
jonasbn |
do you have any material in relation to previous hackathons? |
| 15:37 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: anyway, I'd say let's make it happen :) |
| 15:37 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, that is the least part :) |
| 15:38 |
|
* arnsholt |
likes the idea of Copenhagen |
| 15:38 |
|
arnsholt |
Just a short flight away |
| 15:39 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, I expect we do it one way or the other, I just want us to be as effective as possible, so we actually contribute |
| 15:40 |
|
jonasbn |
and I want as many of you guys to participate, to hold our hands |
| 15:40 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...what day would this take place on anyway? Perhaps there are other ways of me being there without me being there...what are your thoughts of video conferencing? |
| 15:41 |
|
jonasbn |
Wolfman2000, 5th. and 6th. |
| 15:41 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
of March? |
| 15:41 |
|
pmichaud |
if we can get <masak mberends jnthn moritz TimToady>.pick(3) there I think it can be highly successful |
| 15:41 |
|
pmichaud |
I'd think we might do it in two parts |
| 15:41 |
|
masak |
I'm honoured to be on a list with those names. :) |
| 15:41 |
|
pmichaud |
early March 2010 is when we'll want to be finalizing various pieces for Rakudo* |
| 15:41 |
|
jonasbn |
Wolfman2000, Friday and Saturday |
| 15:41 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...if there is a way you can get a live feed of me or something, I can hopefully be there too. |
| 15:41 |
|
* Wolfman2000 |
has a camera on his Mac at least |
| 15:42 |
|
sbp |
chuckle, I just found this: "If you know the perl language, then that is a powerful (if otherwise incomprehensible) language with which to hack together a server." — TimBL, in http://www.w3.org/Provider/ShellScript.html |
| 15:42 |
|
jonasbn |
Wolfman2000, so do I you at least get a picture of me looking confound |
| 15:42 |
|
pmichaud |
so in addition to the conference days themselves, we might want to have a couple of days on either end where the Rakudo* core devs can work on things |
| 15:42 |
|
moritz_ |
phenny, ask jnthn there are (tentative) plans for a Perl 6 hackathon on 2010-03-0{5,6} in Copenhagen - would that suit you? |
| 15:42 |
|
phenny |
moritz_: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around. |
| 15:42 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, sounds like a good idea |
| 15:43 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
jonasbn: you also want to see if we can pull off being there digitally? |
| 15:43 |
|
masak |
sbp: Perl isn't incomprehensible, just insane in a productive-enhancing way. :) |
| 15:43 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, we will see if we can set up a venue for you guys |
| 15:43 |
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| 15:43 |
|
pmichaud |
Wolfman2000: hackathons often have an online component -- we often do a bunch via irc |
| 15:43 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
perhaps we can add Skype to the mix |
| 15:43 |
|
jonasbn |
Wolfman2000, I will see what I can do |
| 15:43 |
|
pmichaud |
Wolfman2000: in fact, it's common for two people sitting across a table from each other to be chatting via irc |
| 15:44 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: that would be awesome |
| 15:44 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, and a beer component too? |
| 15:44 |
|
jnthn |
moritz_: Not, it conflicts with the Dutch Perl Workshop. |
| 15:44 |
|
phenny |
jnthn: 15:42Z <moritz_> ask jnthn there are (tentative) plans for a Perl 6 hackathon on 2010-03-0{5,6} in Copenhagen - would that suit you? |
| 15:44 |
|
pmichaud |
...dutch perl workshop is the same time? |
| 15:44 |
|
jnthn |
http://www.perlworkshop.nl/nlpw2010/ |
| 15:45 |
|
pmichaud |
aiiiiie |
| 15:45 |
|
jnthn |
I already said I'd go there. |
| 15:45 |
|
jnthn |
Can't be in two places at once! |
| 15:45 |
|
masak |
ooh, a Dutch Perl Workshop! |
| 15:45 |
|
jonasbn |
only friday |
| 15:45 |
|
jnthn |
ETOOFATFORQUANTAMPHYSICSTOAPPLYTOME |
| 15:45 |
|
moritz_ |
jnthn: "you're so fat, the complete wave function collapses on you" :-) |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
we all are. :/ |
| 15:46 |
|
ash___ |
has anyone noticed ng's gather not acting the same as non-ng's gather? |
| 15:46 |
|
pmichaud |
jnthn: would you be able to travel from nlpw to copenhagen fairly quickly? either immediately before or immediately after? |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
ash___: I thought that was part of the idea. :) |
| 15:46 |
|
masak |
ash___: ng's gather should eventually be lazy. |
| 15:47 |
|
jonasbn |
jnthn, so at least you are in the neighbourhood, we can arrange our part for you to Saturdays (afternoonish) |
| 15:47 |
|
pmichaud |
...and is it the gather acting differently, or the take? ;-) |
| 15:47 |
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| 15:47 |
|
ash___ |
masak: well, accoding to the spec (i thought) rakudo: my @a = gather for 1..2 { }; say +@a; #=> 2 not 1 |
| 15:47 |
|
moritz_ |
ash___: that's probably because the range 1..2 doesn't work yet |
| 15:47 |
|
pmichaud |
I'm thinking Copenhagen is a lot easier for people to get to than Arnhem :) |
| 15:48 |
|
pmichaud |
I mean, being the "capital of Europe" and all :) :) |
| 15:48 |
|
masak |
ash___: is there supposed to be a 'take' inside that block? |
| 15:48 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: I thought that was Brussels? ;-) |
| 15:49 |
|
jnthn |
jonasbn: Is there any reason the two are overlapping? |
| 15:49 |
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| 15:50 |
|
jonasbn |
jnthn, we want to do it at the same time as the local Open Source Conference |
| 15:50 |
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| 15:50 |
|
jonasbn |
jnthn, which is Friday and Saturday |
| 15:50 |
|
jonasbn |
jnthn, it will be good exposure for Perl 6 and Perl |
| 15:52 |
|
arnsholt |
jnthn: I think there are several cities that claim to be "capital of Europe" =) |
| 15:52 |
|
masak |
good news! the downwards trend since the slashdotting has turned, as of yesterday. |
| 15:52 |
|
colomon |
\o/ |
| 15:52 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
...don't tell me it was my post |
| 15:53 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
All I did was choose one method, and that was it. |
| 15:54 |
|
moritz_ |
Wolfman2000: you should have said "I picked one method" :-) |
| 15:54 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
*groan* |
| 15:54 |
|
jonasbn |
well I need to cook dinner, I will join again later |
| 15:54 |
|
moritz_ |
and no, it was already rising yesterday |
| 15:54 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: the upturn was for the 14th. |
| 15:54 |
|
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| 15:54 |
|
moritz_ |
jonasbn++ |
| 15:55 |
|
masak |
but it doesn't have to mean anything. we could be down to the point where the number just fluctuates. |
| 15:55 |
|
colomon |
bet it was people who don't look over the weekend catching up. |
| 15:56 |
|
masak |
hm, sounds reasonable. |
| 15:56 |
|
arnsholt |
How many unique visitors does the blog get, roughly? |
| 15:56 |
|
masak |
arnsholt: about 1k a day. |
| 15:56 |
|
masak |
arnsholt: it was 11k the day after the slashdotting. |
| 15:57 |
|
moritz_ |
actually it was about 20k in 24 hours |
| 15:57 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
since I have to leave soon (I'll stay on IRC), I'll at least leave with one bit of good news. |
| 15:57 |
|
moritz_ |
but spread over two days |
| 15:57 |
|
colomon |
masak: that's views rather than unique visitors, isn't it? |
| 15:57 |
|
arnsholt |
11k is a lot. But 1k should give some good PR as well |
| 15:57 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
My final grades came in. I got all As this semester. I'm on my way to become a teacher! |
| 15:57 |
|
masak |
colomon: yes, that might be. |
| 15:57 |
|
colomon |
Wolfman2000: \o/ |
| 15:57 |
|
masak |
Wolfman2000: \o/ |
| 15:58 |
|
masak |
Frackin' A! |
| 15:58 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
*groan* enough with the terrible puns already. |
| 15:58 |
|
masak |
you must be new here. :P |
| 15:58 |
|
arnsholt |
Wolfman2000: One is hardly enough! |
| 15:58 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
only a month... |
| 15:59 |
|
frettled |
masak: which what was slashdotted? |
| 15:59 |
|
* frettled |
has been avoiding /. for the past years. |
| 15:59 |
|
masak |
frettled: I think it was pmichaud++'s metaoperators |
| 15:59 |
|
frettled |
aha |
| 15:59 |
|
masak |
that amused me. |
| 15:59 |
|
frettled |
:) |
| 16:00 |
|
frettled |
Day 12 has some interesting comment questions, but no answers, interesting or otherwise. |
| 16:00 |
|
frettled |
And I don't know how to answer the questions. Argh! |
| 16:00 |
|
masak |
1. "Write answer" 2. "Push submit" |
| 16:00 |
|
frettled |
:) |
| 16:01 |
|
colomon |
also the day 1 "getting rakudo" was slashdotted in the same post. |
| 16:01 |
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| 16:01 |
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frettled |
aha |
| 16:03 |
|
masak |
std: |
| 16:03 |
|
diakopter |
std: ! |
| 16:03 |
|
masak |
std: * |
| 16:03 |
|
p6eval |
std 29343: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mNegation metaoperator not followed by valid infix at /tmp/XJg5xvxpXE line 1 (EOF):------> !⏏<EOL> expecting any of: prefix or meta-prefix standard stopper term terminator whitespaceFAILED 00:01 107m |
| 16:03 |
|
p6eval |
std 29343: ok 00:01 104m |
| 16:04 |
|
masak |
std: my $hash = { 2 => { 6 +> 7, 8 => 9 }}; |
| 16:04 |
|
p6eval |
std 29343: ok 00:01 107m |
| 16:04 |
|
masak |
TimToady: ^ |
| 16:05 |
|
masak |
TimToady: S04:232 says that should fail with "closing hash curly may not terminate line". |
| 16:05 |
|
diakopter |
masak: if there's a line after it in the same block |
| 16:06 |
|
masak |
diakopter: not according to S04:232. |
| 16:08 |
|
pmichaud |
(slashdotting) not only did slashdot occur right after the metaoperators post, but I think that's about the time that Tim O'Reilly tweeted it as well |
| 16:08 |
|
masak |
nod. it was the same 24 hours. |
| 16:09 |
|
masak |
very unscientific. now we don't know which one was the bigger contributor. :P |
| 16:10 |
|
frettled |
Heh, I love the highest ranked comment on Slashdot: «Word on the street… …is Duke Nukem Forever is being rewritten in Perl 6.» |
| 16:10 |
|
frettled |
masak: you can use the Referer header for that |
| 16:10 |
|
frettled |
at least for those who haven't disabled it |
| 16:11 |
|
masak |
frettled: nod. I think the referer logs showed that Slashdot pulled in quite a bit more than Twitter. |
| 16:11 |
|
masak |
frettled: I think we should show them all by writing DNF in Perl 6. :) |
| 16:11 |
|
pmichaud |
or writing Perl 6 in DNF. |
| 16:11 |
|
masak |
frettled: and then make sure it works on a recent release of Hurd. |
| 16:11 |
|
diakopter |
std: my %a = { "hi" => "hi" }say 3 |
| 16:11 |
|
p6eval |
std 29343: ok 00:01 106m |
| 16:14 |
|
|
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| 16:14 |
|
frettled |
masak: heh, DNF = Did Not Finish :) |
| 16:16 |
|
diakopter |
moritz_: re 5600 lines; does that include the p5re grammar |
| 16:16 |
|
masak |
diakopter: was that directed to me? I don't know what it includes. |
| 16:18 |
|
diakopter |
masak: no |
| 16:19 |
|
masak |
oh, ok. svn. |
| 16:19 |
|
diakopter |
(moritz_'s comment in the backlog) |
| 16:19 |
|
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| 16:20 |
|
masak |
ah. |
| 16:22 |
|
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| 16:22 |
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ash___ |
hi? is anyone else having issues with freenode? |
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masak |
virtually everyone, I'd guess. |
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pmurias |
me too |
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frettled |
ash___: there have been repeated administrative notices about it |
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frettled |
ash___: At least one of the freenode servers is targeted by a DDoS attack. |
| 16:56 |
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frettled |
That's the risk you run with IRC servers. |
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masak |
what kind of people DDoS IRC servers? did they frequent too many channels without hugbots? |
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ash___ |
frettled: okay, just wondering if it was me, the internet in my area died for a long time yesterday, just making sure it wasn't my internet |
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Infinoid |
masak: arguably, more hugbots are always better |
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ash___ |
masak: so, ummm i never saw your response about gather/tak |
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ash___ |
gather/take |
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moritz_ |
diakopter: re 5600 lines, I have no idea where that number comes from. |
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ash___ |
in the ng branch, it does indeed seem lazy, so lazy it can't cant itself :P, because shouldn't my @a = gather for 1..2 {}; say +@a; #=> 2 ? |
| 16:59 |
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diakopter |
oh, whoops, it *was* masak who said that |
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moritz_ |
ash___: 1..2 doesn't work in ng yet |
| 16:59 |
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masak |
diakopter: I knew it! :P |
| 17:00 |
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moritz_ |
ng: my @a = gather for 1...3 { take $_ }; say +@a |
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p6eval |
ng 0307c2: 3 |
| 17:00 |
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moritz_ |
with ... it works in simple cases |
| 17:00 |
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moritz_ |
and you also need to take() :-) |
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ash___ |
ah, so it is working right, i just didn't use it right |
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frettled |
masak: Well, IRC has almost always been a (set of) place(s) for script kiddies and so on, so DDoS attacks are either just a way to show how 1337 you are, or how 14m3 the other guy is. |
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masak |
frettled: we should find on which channel they hang out, and go there and DDoS them with hugs. :P |
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frettled |
masak: haha :) |
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dalek |
rakudo/master: 55f51dc | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv: |
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dalek |
rakudo/master: "2009-12-15 00:00",7ef3861,32225,504,543,2027,35172,38173,453 |
| 17:35 |
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dalek |
rakudo/master: spectest-progress.csv update: 453 files, 32225 (84.4% of 38173) pass, 504 fail |
| 17:35 |
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dalek |
rakudo/master: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakud[…]7621c0eb996f7c68e |
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masak |
huh -- nobody is doing smartmatching for the advent calendar. |
| 17:57 |
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masak |
that's a pity. |
| 17:57 |
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frettled |
masak: then that's a good Christmas morning bonus entry! |
| 17:57 |
|
masak |
:) |
| 17:58 |
|
yath |
the christmas bonus entry should be rakudo star :P |
| 17:58 |
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coke |
... gruntlebuggies? |
| 17:58 |
|
* coke |
is wondering if the portion of his brain devoted to D. Adams is correctly riffing on frettled's nick. |
| 17:59 |
|
* coke |
is, it seems, close. |
| 17:59 |
|
frettled |
:D |
| 17:59 |
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masak |
'fredded' |
| 17:59 |
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frettled |
coke: I think Mr. Adams used the spelling «freddled». «Oh, freddled gruntlebuggit! Thy micturations are to me, like <something> to a lurgid bee!» |
| 17:59 |
|
frettled |
Or something like that. |
| 18:00 |
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coke |
micturations? |
| 18:00 |
|
* coke |
needs to dig up an emulator and set up his kids to play the text game. |
| 18:00 |
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frettled |
try «vogon poetry» on Wikipedia :) |
| 18:00 |
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frettled |
Ah, there it is: |
| 18:00 |
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frettled |
"Oh freddled gruntbuggly?thy micturations are to me/As plurdled gabbleblotchis on a lurgid bee. Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes. And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,/ Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!" |
| 18:01 |
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TimToady |
masak: the one on junctions mentions talks about smartmatching some |
| 18:04 |
|
masak |
thanks. I'll read it. |
| 18:04 |
|
TimToady |
pick a verb, any verb |
| 18:05 |
|
frettled |
verb.pick() |
| 18:05 |
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masak |
I'm writing tomorrow's post now, and I don't want to skip things or repeat myself. |
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masak |
tomorrow's advent post is ready for preview and comments. :) |
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mberends |
.oO( Arnhem .. Copenhagen ) |
| 18:36 |
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mberends |
we gotta hire us a little bus! |
| 18:36 |
|
mberends |
only 7.5 hours overnight according to teh googel |
| 18:37 |
|
masak |
mberends! |
| 18:37 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 18:37 |
|
mberends |
! |
| 18:38 |
|
mberends |
\o/ |
| 18:38 |
|
jnthn |
mberends: oh hey, that's not a bad idea, if there's a bunch of us. |
| 18:38 |
|
jnthn |
Anmd somebody is willing to drive. |
| 18:38 |
|
mberends |
I'm one banana in a bunch |
| 18:38 |
|
mberends |
and willing to drive |
| 18:38 |
|
jnthn |
I'm willing to be a banana. |
| 18:38 |
|
jnthn |
However, can't drive. |
| 18:39 |
|
jnthn |
(Can't in both senses.) |
| 18:39 |
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mberends |
no probs, I'm volunteering |
| 18:40 |
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jnthn |
mberends++ |
| 18:40 |
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jnthn |
That could be fun |
| 18:40 |
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jnthn |
Perl bus! |
| 18:40 |
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masak |
\o/ |
| 18:41 |
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mberends |
no bus errors please |
| 18:41 |
|
masak |
and no bus numbers... |
| 18:41 |
|
masak |
food & |
| 18:44 |
|
coke |
jnthn: how goes ng? |
| 18:49 |
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new2perl6 |
Hi, was just reading some of Moritz's "perl 5 to 6", and right near the beginning it says, "While Perl 5 hashes are even sized lists when viewed in list context, Perl 6 hashes are lists of pairs in that context." Is that actually a list of references to 2-item lists? |
| 18:52 |
|
moritz_ |
new2perl6: no, it's really Pair objects |
| 18:53 |
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new2perl6 |
Does Perl 6 have references? |
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moritz_ |
rakudo: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; say @(%a)[0].WHAT |
| 18:53 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: ( no output ) |
| 18:53 |
|
moritz_ |
new2perl6: not in the Perl 5 sense, but it does have call-by-reference semantics |
| 18:54 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my @array = %a; say @array[0].WHAT |
| 18:54 |
|
new2perl6 |
I know Python. In Python, everything is a reference to an object. Is that the way it works in Perl 6? |
| 18:54 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: ( no output ) |
| 18:54 |
|
moritz_ |
new2perl6: basically, yes. Except some low-level types which are "value types" |
| 18:55 |
|
moritz_ |
seems p6eval is borked |
| 18:55 |
|
moritz_ |
locally here: |
| 18:55 |
|
moritz_ |
> my %a = a => 1, b => 2; my @array = %a; say @array[0].WHAT |
| 18:55 |
|
moritz_ |
Pair() |
| 18:55 |
|
new2perl6 |
moritz_: Hm. I see. So, @(%a) is what we use now instead of @{%a} ... |
| 18:55 |
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moritz_ |
new2perl6: not quite. It's a way to force list context |
| 18:56 |
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moritz_ |
in Perl 4, @{%a} is an error, because %a is not an array ref |
| 18:56 |
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moritz_ |
erm, perl 5 |
| 18:56 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: Arg. Whoops. Yes, thank you for the correction. |
| 18:56 |
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moritz_ |
evalbot control restart |
| 18:57 |
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moritz_ |
new2perl6: there are quite a few things that look similar to Perl 5, but are a bit enhanced under the hood |
| 18:57 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: So, `.WHAT` is like Python's type(). |
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moritz_ |
probably. My python-fu is too weak :-) |
| 18:58 |
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moritz_ |
but it gives the type object associated with an object |
| 18:58 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: Ha. You're excused. ;) |
| 18:59 |
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moritz_ |
actually I wanted to learn python to hack up `cplay' a bit |
| 18:59 |
|
moritz_ |
but... I have to hand in my diploma thesis in 3 days. Yikes. |
| 18:59 |
|
colomon |
what's it on? |
| 19:00 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: Oh my. You're extra busy this week. |
| 19:00 |
|
moritz_ |
colomon: "Ballistic Transport of Spin-Polarized Electron Beams in Mesoscopic |
| 19:00 |
|
moritz_ |
Systems" |
| 19:00 |
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| 19:00 |
|
colomon |
That's a mouthful. :) |
| 19:02 |
|
new2perl6 |
moritz_: You say "basically, yes" that everything is a reference (except for some "value types"). Does Perl 6 still copy on assignment, like Perl 5? In Python, when you assign one variable to another, you get 2 references pointing to the same object. |
| 19:03 |
|
TimToady |
new2perl6: Perl 6 distinguishes assignment from binding |
| 19:03 |
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TimToady |
use := to get the Python semantics |
| 19:03 |
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| 19:03 |
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new2perl6 |
TimToady: Ah. Ok. So, by default, we get the usual expected "make a copy of this" behaviour. |
| 19:04 |
|
TimToady |
moritz_: is "mesoscopic" smaller or larger than a flea? |
| 19:04 |
|
moritz_ |
TimToady: smaller. Small enough to observe quantum effects |
| 19:04 |
|
new2perl6 |
TimToady: I mean, by default using the `=`. |
| 19:04 |
|
TimToady |
well, Penrose speculated that flea-sized was the boundary :) |
| 19:05 |
|
moritz_ |
TimToady: in our systems it's a few micrometers |
| 19:05 |
|
moritz_ |
but I don't see why there should be an upper boundary for quantum effects (but that's not really a topic I've studied) |
| 19:06 |
|
TimToady |
http://www.bartleby.com/100/211.5.html |
| 19:06 |
|
rodi |
moritz_: Penrose (again) thinks it's how (and why) your brain works. |
| 19:06 |
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| 19:07 |
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moritz_ |
I'm pretty sure I have no fleas in my brain :-) |
| 19:07 |
|
moritz_ |
at least not literally :-) |
| 19:07 |
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diakopter |
new2perl6: yes |
| 19:08 |
|
Su-Shee |
moritz_: still a real Diplom on friday? |
| 19:08 |
|
rodi |
http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/flea.php |
| 19:08 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: any hints on diffing two directory trees in Linux / OS X ? |
| 19:08 |
|
colomon |
My svn backups were two weeks out of date... :( |
| 19:08 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29344 | lwall++ | [S32/Containers] refine pick concepts on baggy things for IllvilJa++ |
| 19:08 |
|
moritz_ |
Su-Shee: yes |
| 19:09 |
|
Su-Shee |
moritz_: "last of its kind..." :) |
| 19:09 |
|
moritz_ |
colomon: unison if you want two-way merges |
| 19:09 |
|
colomon |
TimToady: are Bags still a going concern in the language, then? :) |
| 19:09 |
|
moritz_ |
Su-Shee: roughly |
| 19:11 |
|
TimToady |
I haven't seen them disappear from the spec... |
| 19:12 |
|
new2perl6 |
moritz_: You wrote, "but it does have call-by-reference semantics". So, although "my $b = $a" makes a copy of $a for assignment to $b, if I call foo($a), inside the body of foo() $a still refers to the object outside? |
| 19:13 |
|
moritz_ |
new2perl6: function calls do (read-only) binding |
| 19:13 |
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| 19:14 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: I don't think I know what "read-only binding" means... Wait. Inside the function, if I only *read* $a, it's referring to the outside object? |
| 19:14 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: sub f($x) { $x++ }; my $y = 4; f($y) |
| 19:15 |
|
moritz_ |
wtf is up with p6eval? |
| 19:15 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: Cannot assign to readonly variable.in sub |
| 19:15 |
|
moritz_ |
ah, here it comes |
| 19:15 |
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| 19:15 |
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moritz_ |
new2perl6: you can not re-assign to the parameter variable (here $x) |
| 19:16 |
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pmichaud |
new2perl6: inside of a sub, the parameter is indeed a reference to the argument. However, by default it's a read-only reference, which means you cannot use it to change the value of the argument |
| 19:16 |
|
moritz_ |
but in general you can still call mutating accessors on objects |
| 19:17 |
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pmichaud |
to get a read+write reference one would declare the parameter as "is rw", as in sub f($x is rw) { ... } |
| 19:17 |
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| 19:18 |
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pmichaud |
afk for a bit... |
| 19:18 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: I think I need to try out some examples like the one you just tried to have the rakudobot run. |
| 19:18 |
|
new2perl6 |
pmichaud: Oh, it's a constant then. |
| 19:18 |
|
moritz_ |
for value types, yes |
| 19:19 |
|
new2perl6 |
pmichaud: Ah. "sub f($x is rw) { ... }". I see. |
| 19:19 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: sub f($x) { $x.push('a') }; my $a = [1, 2]; f($a); say $a.perl |
| 19:19 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: [1, 2, "a"] |
| 19:19 |
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| 19:19 |
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moritz_ |
here you can't assign to $x, but you can mutate the object inside $x by calling methods on it |
| 19:20 |
|
moritz_ |
that's why there's usually a mutable and an immutable version of each type |
| 19:20 |
|
new2perl6 |
moritz_: Oh, I see. That makes sense. |
| 19:20 |
|
moritz_ |
for example List is immutable, Array is mutable |
| 19:20 |
|
moritz_ |
[1, 2] creates an Array |
| 19:21 |
|
moritz_ |
(rakudo doesn't do List very well yet, iirc) |
| 19:21 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: [1,2] creates a mutable "Array" ... does (1,2) create an immutable "List"? |
| 19:21 |
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| 19:22 |
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new2perl6 |
moritz_: Sorry, I guess this is getting pretty far off-topic from my original question. :) |
| 19:22 |
|
moritz_ |
new2perl6: something along these lines, yes |
| 19:22 |
|
moritz_ |
and no, perl 6 is never off-topic here :-) |
| 19:23 |
|
colomon |
moritz_: Never mind my last request, just remembered I had DiffMerge sitting around on my system. |
| 19:23 |
|
new2perl6 |
moritz_: Yes, but it's easy to suffer from this condition where, instead of reading the Synopses you just come to #perl6 and keep asking questions. :) |
| 19:23 |
|
TimToady |
rodi: well, False is 0 and True is 1 if you force numeric |
| 19:23 |
|
new2perl6 |
moritz_: s/you/I/ |
| 19:24 |
|
moritz_ |
new2perl6: so did I, reading the Synopsis is hard at first, and they don't answer all your questions :-) |
| 19:25 |
|
rodi |
TimToady: yeah, should have been more specific- I would like to pick two specific characters at render time (e.g. Bool::True is an X and Bool::False is a .) |
| 19:25 |
|
new2perl6 |
Thanks all. Bye. |
| 19:25 |
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| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
...is masak++'s "scanning" example correct? |
| 19:25 |
|
pmichaud |
(for the next perl6advent post) |
| 19:25 |
|
moritz_ |
('X', ' ')[?$x] |
| 19:25 |
|
rodi |
I have a version of it working where I simply stringify the whole array and .subst on the 1's and 0's. |
| 19:26 |
|
moritz_ |
erm, actually revert those items in the list |
| 19:26 |
|
TimToady |
<. X>[+$x] I think, if $x is already a Bool |
| 19:27 |
|
pmichaud |
phenny: tell masak I think the p6advent post ought to mention that "when" works in any block that sets $_ |
| 19:27 |
|
phenny |
pmichaud: I'll pass that on when masak is around. |
| 19:27 |
|
pmichaud |
phenny: in the scanning example, I think you may want to drop the "-> $line" in "for $*IN.lines -> $line {" |
| 19:27 |
|
pmichaud |
er |
| 19:28 |
|
rodi |
I find endless amusement by replacing methods and classes by characters and words. |
| 19:28 |
|
pmichaud |
phenny: tell masak in the scanning example, I think you may want to drop the "-> $line" in "for $*IN.lines -> $line {" |
| 19:28 |
|
phenny |
pmichaud: I'll pass that on when masak is around. |
| 19:28 |
|
moritz_ |
<. X>[+$x] looks like a nice fish operator :-) |
| 19:28 |
|
rodi |
moritz_, TimToady, thanks, works great. |
| 19:28 |
|
rodi |
heh. |
| 19:28 |
|
pmichaud |
looks like a mutant fish, though. |
| 19:29 |
|
TimToady |
swimming upside-down |
| 19:29 |
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moritz_ |
<. X>« would look better |
| 19:30 |
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* rodi |
goes to make himself a new bumper sticker... |
| 19:32 |
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TimToady |
funny day, backlogging irssi X ilbot2 gives me a large percentage of what someone said somewhere... |
| 19:32 |
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moritz_ |
TimToady: I guess Europe and the US have been on different sides of the net splits quite often today |
| 19:34 |
|
TimToady |
but it's a bit like people wandering around in a thick, sound-absorbent fog |
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| 19:54 |
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colomon |
Hmmm.... looking at day 16 post. |
| 19:54 |
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colomon |
next when $line ~~ ''; strikes me as a bit weird. |
| 19:55 |
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moritz_ |
for ... { next when '' } would be better |
| 19:55 |
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jnthn |
wants to be next if no? |
| 19:55 |
|
moritz_ |
and using $_ instead of $line |
| 19:55 |
|
jnthn |
well, only use when it testing the topic, yes |
| 19:55 |
|
colomon |
I would also explain that when and if are basically the same, except if always "continues". |
| 19:56 |
|
moritz_ |
not the same. 'when' does smart matching, 'if' coerces to Bool |
| 19:56 |
|
colomon |
I guess my issue is, won't the when statement automatically "next" if it fires? |
| 19:57 |
|
moritz_ |
right |
| 19:58 |
|
colomon |
rakudo; given 10.0 { if Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; }; |
| 19:59 |
|
colomon |
rakudo: given 10.0 { if Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; }; |
| 19:59 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: ( no output ) |
| 19:59 |
|
colomon |
well I'll be. |
| 19:59 |
|
colomon |
good thing I didn't write the given / when day! :) |
| 19:59 |
|
moritz_ |
rakudo: given 10.0 { when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; }; |
| 19:59 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: I'm a Num |
| 20:02 |
|
diakopter |
rakudo: given 10.0 { if ~~Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; }; |
| 20:02 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: hiI'm a Num |
| 20:03 |
|
diakopter |
std: given 10.0 { if ~~Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; }; |
| 20:03 |
|
p6eval |
std 29344: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mPreceding context expects a term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/mGo3t6pnvM line 1:------> given 10.0 { if ~~⏏Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a FAILED 00:01 106m |
| 20:03 |
|
diakopter |
I guess it's two ~ |
| 20:04 |
|
diakopter |
(in rakudo) |
| 20:04 |
|
diakopter |
rakudo: given 10.0 { if ~~~~~Num { say "hi" }; when Num { say "I'm a Num"; }; }; |
| 20:04 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: hiI'm a Num |
| 20:04 |
|
colomon |
and he definitely doesn't want the "-> $line" in the $*IN example. |
| 20:04 |
|
colomon |
Is masak asleep or just afk? |
| 20:04 |
|
jonasbn |
sleeping at the keyboard? |
| 20:05 |
|
colomon |
bummer. |
| 20:07 |
|
diakopter |
std: say ~~3 # TimToady: why does it find infix ~~ here? |
| 20:07 |
|
p6eval |
std 29344: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mPreceding context expects a term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/b3xclq2au2 line 1:------> say ~~⏏3 # TimToady: why does it find infix ~~ FAILED 00:01 104m |
| 20:08 |
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| 20:09 |
|
diakopter |
pugs: sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~ 55 |
| 20:09 |
|
p6eval |
pugs: 1 |
| 20:09 |
|
diakopter |
std: sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~ 55 |
| 20:09 |
|
p6eval |
std 29344: ===[0mSORRY!===[0mPreceding context expects a term, but found infix ~~ instead at /tmp/nUfuND6Or4 line 1:------> sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~⏏ 55FAILED 00:01 107m |
| 20:09 |
|
diakopter |
rakudo: sub foo() { return 55 }; say foo ~~ 55 |
| 20:09 |
|
p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324) |
| 20:10 |
|
diakopter |
imho that's an ambiguity |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:16 |
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moritz_ |
it's specc |
| 20:16 |
|
moritz_ |
foo is a listop |
| 20:16 |
|
moritz_ |
and expects a term |
| 20:17 |
|
moritz_ |
if you don't want that, write foo() |
| 20:21 |
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| 20:39 |
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ash___ |
masak: have you tried your Configure.pm from proto with ng? |
| 20:45 |
|
ash___ |
ng: .say for 1, 2, 3; |
| 20:45 |
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p6eval |
ng 0307c2: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory |
| 20:45 |
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ash___ |
rakudo: .say for 1, 2, 3; |
| 20:46 |
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p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: 123 |
| 20:46 |
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| 20:48 |
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eiro |
hello all |
| 20:51 |
|
colomon |
hello |
| 20:51 |
|
ash___ |
so... should we be using ng? or master? i am a bit confused by the differences between those branches |
| 20:52 |
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| 20:52 |
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masak |
o/ |
| 20:52 |
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phenny |
masak: 19:27Z <pmichaud> tell masak I think the p6advent post ought to mention that "when" works in any block that sets $_ |
| 20:52 |
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coke |
unless you're hacking, I'd use master. |
| 20:52 |
|
phenny |
masak: 19:28Z <pmichaud> tell masak in the scanning example, I think you may want to drop the "-> $line" in "for $*IN.lines -> $line {" |
| 20:52 |
|
coke |
hacking -on rakudo-, that is. |
| 20:52 |
|
masak |
pmichaud: good idea and will do, respectively. thanks! |
| 20:53 |
|
pmichaud |
ash___: ng branch still has bigger holes.... for the next week or so at least, I'd stick with master |
| 20:53 |
|
pmichaud |
there will be a big announcement when we switch to ng (more precisely, ng will be renamed "master") |
| 20:53 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: also notice that 'next when...' is a bit weird |
| 20:54 |
|
ash___ |
okay, thanks pmichaud |
| 20:54 |
|
moritz_ |
masak: siince 'when' already implies somethiing similar to 'next' |
| 20:54 |
|
moritz_ |
as colomon++ pointed out |
| 20:54 |
|
masak |
moritz_: it's tautological, but not fatally so. |
| 20:54 |
|
eiro |
masak, bug reports/contribs on proto: is there the good place to chat about it ? |
| 20:54 |
|
masak |
eiro: here is fine. |
| 20:54 |
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| 20:54 |
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moritz_ |
here! |
| 20:54 |
|
eiro |
ok |
| 20:54 |
|
moritz_ |
bug reports supposedly go to the github bug tracker |
| 20:55 |
|
eiro |
moritz_, yep but i don't know the good strategy to patch |
| 20:55 |
|
eiro |
i noticed there is no verbose mode. is it ok to add a GetOption |
| 20:55 |
|
eiro |
to remove the usage of dotty-progress |
| 20:56 |
|
colomon |
masak: I believe it works, it just seems like a confusing example. |
| 20:56 |
|
eiro |
./proto --verbose --gen-parrot-anyway |
| 20:56 |
|
masak |
colomon: agreed. |
| 20:59 |
|
colomon |
btw, it's a great post. I love given / when... |
| 20:59 |
|
masak |
me too. :) that's why I claimed the topic early. |
| 20:59 |
|
masak |
oh, I should briefly mention CATCH, also. |
| 21:02 |
|
TimToady |
next as a statement modifier does not imply break semantics |
| 21:02 |
|
TimToady |
s/next/when/ grr |
| 21:02 |
|
masak |
I was thinking about that. |
| 21:02 |
|
TimToady |
so "next when" is not redundant |
| 21:02 |
|
masak |
does the spec mention that? |
| 21:03 |
|
TimToady |
yes |
| 21:03 |
|
TimToady |
but nobody reads that.... :/ |
| 21:03 |
|
masak |
:P |
| 21:03 |
|
masak |
TimToady: I haven't backlogged yet; did you see my block parsing heads-up? |
| 21:03 |
|
TimToady |
S04:923 |
| 21:05 |
|
TimToady |
haven't had a chance to look at that yet. it may be that we can relax that restriction, which was put in for pugs |
| 21:05 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, have got first response from the OSD organizers about the hackathon - they are VERY positive |
| 21:05 |
|
masak |
TimToady: sounds good. I've never felt a use for it, fwiw. |
| 21:06 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, they inquire if it would be possible to get some 45 min. presentations from some of you guys as part of the bargain |
| 21:07 |
|
masak |
I wouldn't mind giving a presentation. |
| 21:07 |
|
jonasbn |
masak, great :) |
| 21:08 |
|
moritz_ |
if I'm able to come, I'll also volunteer for a talk |
| 21:08 |
|
jonasbn |
I will try to collect the threads, is there a better way to contact your guys than via IRC? - like a mailing list or something |
| 21:08 |
|
moritz_ |
jonasbn: perl6-compiler@perl.org should work |
| 21:09 |
|
masak |
I'd say IRC is the better way, but YMMV. :) |
| 21:09 |
|
jonasbn |
moritz_, thanks, IRC is great but for giving you the complete picture, I might prefer email |
| 21:10 |
|
TimToady |
masak: I think that rule predates the notion that the inside of bracketing constructs is a statement in its own right. |
| 21:10 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: I am always glad to give presentations |
| 21:10 |
|
masak |
TimToady: aha. |
| 21:10 |
|
TimToady |
now that it is, it doesn't matter if the inner } thinks its terminating a statement |
| 21:10 |
|
TimToady |
so I think we can remove the exception |
| 21:10 |
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| 21:10 |
|
masak |
\o/ |
| 21:11 |
|
jonasbn |
I think the OSD people are quite interested in the parrot aspect in more general terms, the majority are not necessarily perl h4X0rs |
| 21:11 |
|
jonasbn |
they might even sponsor travel to some extent |
| 21:12 |
|
masak |
that's great! |
| 21:12 |
|
pmichaud |
perhaps we get could allison to come |
| 21:12 |
|
coke |
OSD? |
| 21:13 |
|
sjohnson |
hi dudes |
| 21:13 |
|
pmichaud |
coke: |
| 21:13 |
|
pmichaud |
oops |
| 21:13 |
|
jonasbn |
they require for me to give some details on requirements for the physical space - do you guys have any idea on this from previous hackathons or similar |
| 21:13 |
|
pmichaud |
coke: http://www.opensourcedays.org/2010/ |
| 21:13 |
|
masak |
"Obsessive Seduction Disorder" :) |
| 21:13 |
|
pmichaud |
copenhagen, denmark, march 5-6 2010 |
| 21:13 |
|
frettled |
masak: heh |
| 21:13 |
|
jonasbn |
masak, yes, it is going to be FUN! |
| 21:13 |
|
pmichaud |
we're looking at putting together a Perl 6 hackathon or workshop at that time |
| 21:13 |
|
masak |
frettled: don't snicker, it could happen to you! :P |
| 21:14 |
|
frettled |
masak: I hope so! |
| 21:14 |
|
pugs_svn |
r29345 | lwall++ | [S04] remove fossilized restriction dug up by masak++ |
| 21:14 |
|
masak |
"masak: removing things from the spec, adding things to RT" |
| 21:15 |
|
pmichaud |
when the spec is empty and rt is full, we will be finished. |
| 21:15 |
|
masak |
"now also in a handy bottle" |
| 21:15 |
|
frettled |
heh |
| 21:16 |
|
TimToady |
ss/thinks its/thinks it's/ # durn english orthography... |
| 21:17 |
|
frettled |
TimToady: perhaps we should switch to standardized Indonesian |
| 21:18 |
|
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| 21:18 |
|
TimToady |
as long as it's written in Kanji and Kana, I'll be fine |
| 21:18 |
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| 21:19 |
|
masak |
'use Indonesian::Standardized;' |
| 21:19 |
|
Tene |
jonasbn: If they can sponsor travel, I'll contribute. |
| 21:20 |
|
frettled |
⠗⠙⠵⠹ |
| 21:20 |
|
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| 21:20 |
|
frettled |
一三三七 |
| 21:20 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: right now I see three aspects to a workshop (more) |
| 21:21 |
|
* TimToady |
is entertained |
| 21:21 |
|
pmichaud |
one is to participate in osd, to get the word out about perl 6 |
| 21:21 |
|
pmichaud |
another is to provide a venue for people to help with hacking |
| 21:21 |
|
pmichaud |
or to learn how to get started with hacking |
| 21:22 |
|
pmichaud |
and a third is as a dedicated workshop for many of the core Rakudo contributors to meet to clear things in preparation for Rakudo* |
| 21:22 |
|
moritz_ |
we could also be presenthing the Perl 6 book |
| 21:22 |
|
pmichaud |
and yes, that also |
| 21:22 |
|
mberends |
jonasbn: I'm also happy to give a presentation to OSD |
| 21:22 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, that sounds like what we want to aim for |
| 21:22 |
|
pmichaud |
however, it looks as though one of our key players (jnthn) won't be able to make it directly to osd |
| 21:22 |
|
frettled |
oh :( |
| 21:23 |
|
pmichaud |
because he has a commitment to dutch perl workshop |
| 21:23 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, I personally just want to have a "Copenhagen" release ;-) |
| 21:23 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: oh, I'm sure we can arrange that :) |
| 21:23 |
|
pmichaud |
a few of us had already been exploring "how and where can we get a rakudo hackathon in early 2010" -- you just popped in at the perfect time |
| 21:23 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, what if the hackathon would be saturday and sunday, the dutch perl workshop is friday |
| 21:24 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: yes, that's what I'm thinking |
| 21:24 |
|
pmichaud |
some of us can attend osd on friday, to present and participate there |
| 21:24 |
|
mberends |
pmichaud: jnthn, myself and whoever else is interested could drive from Arnhem to Copenhagen together |
| 21:24 |
|
pmichaud |
then we can have a general hackathon on saturday and sunday |
| 21:24 |
|
pmichaud |
then, depending on who can stay (and both jonathan and I can), some continued rakudo* work for a couple of days after that |
| 21:26 |
|
pmichaud |
as far as what we need, it depends on how many show up |
| 21:26 |
|
pmichaud |
in general we just need a room or rooms with wifi, some writing surfaces, and availability of hacking fuel (food and/or nearby eating places) |
| 21:26 |
|
jonasbn |
so it is actually the number of participants setting the requirement |
| 21:27 |
|
pmichaud |
pretty much |
| 21:27 |
|
jonasbn |
do you have an upper limit? |
| 21:27 |
|
pmichaud |
my experience is that they tend to be self-limiting by who can come (and when), but 30 would seem to be a top upper limit |
| 21:27 |
|
pmichaud |
I need to look at the structure of osd a bit as well |
| 21:28 |
|
pmichaud |
it also depends on how many mentors are available |
| 21:28 |
|
pmichaud |
(i.e., people who can help guide others) |
| 21:28 |
|
pmichaud |
any idea how many people we'd be likely to attract from the copenhagen area? |
| 21:29 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, not at this time, but I would prefer if the attendant primarily are local |
| 21:29 |
|
jonasbn |
with you guys to help us out |
| 21:30 |
|
pmichaud |
that seems workable. At the moment we're looking that there may be about 6 of "us guys" helping out |
| 21:31 |
|
frettled |
I'm tempted to make this an excuse to go to CPH again. Don't worry, I'm house trained. ;) |
| 21:32 |
|
pmichaud |
so if there's around 20-30 participants overall, that could be good. I suspect we might do some "structured introduction" at the first part of the hackathon, to introduce newbies to Perl 6 and how things are put together, and then break up into smaller groups or individual tasks where people can hack on whatever they think will be most interesting. That formula worked extremely well at NPW earlier this year. |
| 21:32 |
|
jonasbn |
then that is what we do |
| 21:33 |
|
jonasbn |
what is your take on spectators |
| 21:33 |
|
jonasbn |
I mean regular OSD attendees |
| 21:33 |
|
pmichaud |
that'd be fine with me, unless you envision a problem |
| 21:33 |
|
pmichaud |
to me "spectator" is "rakudo hacker who doesn't realize it yet" |
| 21:33 |
|
pmichaud |
:-) |
| 21:33 |
|
jonasbn |
much of the stuff is normally "configuration", so I really look forward to putting the open source into open source days :) |
| 21:34 |
|
jonasbn |
pmichaud, great, since this is propably what we have to deal with |
| 21:34 |
|
pmichaud |
works for me |
| 21:34 |
|
pmichaud |
I may start a google group for this topic |
| 21:34 |
|
jonasbn |
please feel free |
| 21:34 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll do that later today |
| 21:34 |
|
jonasbn |
or a wave :) |
| 21:34 |
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Tene |
wave isn't public access yet |
| 21:35 |
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coke |
I have wave invites if anyone wants one. |
| 21:35 |
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jonasbn |
Tene, you want an invite? |
| 21:35 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll take an invite :) |
| 21:35 |
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coke |
pmichaud: incoming. |
| 21:36 |
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| 21:36 |
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jonasbn |
pmichaud, a google group will do |
| 21:36 |
|
pmichaud |
mberends: if driving from arnhem to copenhagen, what's the expected availability in copenhagen? |
| 21:36 |
|
pmichaud |
yes, I'll do a google group for now. |
| 21:36 |
|
pmichaud |
I'll pre-subscribe the people commenting here (let me know if you wish to not be subscribed) |
| 21:37 |
|
Tene |
jonasbn: I'm on wave already, but many potentially interested people aren't. |
| 21:37 |
|
Tene |
pmichaud: please subscribe me. |
| 21:37 |
|
pmichaud |
Tene: will do. |
| 21:37 |
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mberends |
pmichaud: driving 7-9 hours overnight, arriving early Saturday morning |
| 21:38 |
|
pmichaud |
mberends: that could work out really well, if people aren't too tired :) |
| 21:38 |
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mberends |
timezones are in the mind ;) |
| 21:38 |
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jonasbn |
what about night train? |
| 21:38 |
|
* mberends |
will look, but fears the price |
| 21:38 |
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jonasbn |
that all can have a beer |
| 21:38 |
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jonasbn |
s/that/then/ |
| 21:38 |
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mberends |
:) |
| 21:39 |
|
pmichaud |
I was even thinking of trying to make it to Dutch Perl Workshop in that case... but I'm not sure it's good for me and jnthn to both be in the same vehicle for an overnight trip in the cold of winter in scandinavia :) |
| 21:39 |
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mberends |
I'll drive *really* carefully |
| 21:39 |
|
jonasbn |
I will investigate sponsorship options in adition, so do not make any decision based on economy just yet |
| 21:39 |
|
jnthn |
pmichaud: meh, Denmark is the unhardcore point of Scandinavia. |
| 21:39 |
|
jnthn |
;-) |
| 21:40 |
|
jnthn |
No polar bears and extreme snow there, right? :-) |
| 21:40 |
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pmichaud |
it did concern me a bit in 2005 when I was driving a vehicle containing both TimToady and audreyt :) |
| 21:40 |
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jonasbn |
jnthn, weatherwise yes - coastal climate and no mountains |
| 21:40 |
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mberends |
March should be early spring |
| 21:40 |
|
jonasbn |
jnthn, I can take you to the zoo :) |
| 21:41 |
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pmichaud |
I think there may also be some sponsorship opportunities from other sources as well |
| 21:41 |
|
pmichaud |
and if there's a strong Rakudo* component, we may be able to use hague funds to support some of this |
| 21:43 |
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Tene |
I remember this was also discussed at PDS. |
| 21:43 |
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| 21:44 |
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eiro |
for someone who just wants to play with perl6, is there a difference between parrot_in_rakudo and rakudo_in_parrot ? |
| 21:45 |
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eiro |
is there a prefered choice ? |
| 21:45 |
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jonasbn |
pmichaud, who are the 6 of you? - is that the complete list you mentioned earlier? |
| 21:45 |
|
pmichaud |
jonasbn: basically, depending on who can make it. |
| 21:45 |
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Tene |
eiro: if you're just playing a bit, no difference. |
| 21:45 |
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jnthn |
mberends: There is a night train Koln - Copenhagen. |
| 21:45 |
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colomon |
pmichaud: I guess I would be interested in being on the IRC support end of things for the hacking, at least a bit. (depending on time zones, I suppose :) |
| 21:45 |
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eiro |
thx Tene |
| 21:46 |
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jonasbn |
pmichaud, okay and sponsorships is a great motivator I guess |
| 21:46 |
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jnthn |
mberends: That depends on getting to Koln by 21:00 or so, iirc. |
| 21:46 |
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pmichaud |
as I said, we were already starting to try to put something together for the list I gave earlier |
| 21:46 |
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| 21:46 |
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pmichaud |
one of the things we didn't yet have was an event+location that was in the right time frame and generally easy for folks to get to |
| 21:47 |
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pmichaud |
you just provided that :) |
| 21:47 |
|
[particle] |
last time i was in Koln there was a guy singing dylan covers really badly in the main square. |
| 21:47 |
|
[particle] |
hope he's not still there. |
| 21:48 |
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masak |
my daft draft is now updated with everyone's suggestions, and I probably won't touch it until it publishes itself at 00:01. |
| 21:48 |
|
masak |
should anyone find any last-minute corrections or improvements, you have my permission to just go in and make them. |
| 21:48 |
|
masak |
good night, everyone. |
| 21:48 |
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jnthn |
night, masak |
| 21:48 |
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pmichaud |
masak++ # excellent |
| 21:49 |
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jonasbn |
pmichaud, so we are talking room for 30 + 6? |
| 21:49 |
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pmichaud |
jonasbn: yeah, that seems reasonable. might say 40 just to be on the safe side |
| 21:50 |
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pmichaud |
anyone remember about how many perl6-hackers we had at npw? |
| 21:50 |
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jonasbn |
40 in total |
| 21:50 |
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pmichaud |
right 40 in total |
| 21:50 |
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pmichaud |
I want to say that at npw we had about 20 perl 6 hacking folks |
| 21:51 |
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pmichaud |
might've been 25 |
| 21:51 |
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jonasbn |
pmichaud, I think we will land on the same number |
| 21:51 |
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pmichaud |
:) |
| 21:51 |
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pmichaud |
agreed |
| 21:52 |
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pmichaud |
frettled: if this is a good excuse for you to come to cph, I'm sure we'd like having you |
| 21:53 |
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ash___ |
are there any perl 6 related events going on in/near/around Atlanta, GA? |
| 21:54 |
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eiro |
it seems that proto comes with a little YAML parser: why don't use YAML.pm ? |
| 21:55 |
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moritz_ |
where's that YAML.pm everybody keeps talking about? |
| 21:55 |
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mberends |
eiro: proto needs to be self contained, to begin installing any modules |
| 21:56 |
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eiro |
moritz_, perl -MYAML -E 'say $INC{"YAML.pm"}' |
| 21:56 |
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eiro |
/usr/share/perl5/YAML.pm |
| 21:56 |
|
eiro |
:) |
| 21:57 |
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moritz_ |
eiro: that's not a Perl 6 module |
| 21:57 |
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eiro |
mberends, ok ... so the patch i'm writting is dumb: i began by including Getopt::Long :) |
| 21:57 |
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eiro |
moritz_, yep, understood |
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| 21:58 |
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coke |
ah, TimToady was about, so I can ask again, what should this do: |
| 21:58 |
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coke |
rakudo: sub foo { try {return 5}; return 4}; say foo() |
| 21:58 |
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p6eval |
rakudo 55f51d: 4 |
| 21:58 |
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mberends |
eiro: write a Perl 6 Getopt::Long, and use it :) |
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pmichaud |
coke: I'm pretty sure it should return 5 |
| 21:58 |
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pmichaud |
note that option handling is described in Synopsis 19, too :) |
| 21:59 |
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coke |
that was my reading of the spec, too. |
| 21:59 |
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coke |
want an RT? |
| 21:59 |
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| 21:59 |
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coke |
(it's also an issue in NQP) |
| 21:59 |
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mberends |
eiro: the proto script itself is a small bootstrap written in Perl 5, the rest is Perl 6 |
| 22:00 |
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eiro |
mberends, yep but this boostrap failed for me so i plan: |
| 22:00 |
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coke |
odd. perl6 queue has 279 new and 279 open tickets. |
| 22:00 |
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eiro |
- to add a verbose mode to know what's really happening (remove ./dotty-progress use ) |
| 22:00 |
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Tene |
eiro: there's a Getopt library in Parrot that you can use from Rakudo. |
| 22:00 |
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eiro |
- to fix the bug |
| 22:01 |
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eiro |
Tene, yeah but i'm patching the perl5 code |
| 22:01 |
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mberends |
eiro: good idea :) |
| 22:02 |
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eiro |
i'll just handle a -v as first argument: no need of GetOptions for that |
| 22:02 |
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eiro |
is this ok ? |
| 22:03 |
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mberends |
also add a -h for help |
| 22:05 |
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| 22:06 |
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eiro |
ok ... perhaps a multiflag ... $ARGV[0] =~ /^-/ and @options = ( split //,$ARGV[0] )[1,-1] |
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mberends |
eiro: whatever works for you initially. several other proto developers are likely to refactor the code anyway. |
| 22:10 |
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eiro |
mberends, when this refactoring will come true ? |
| 22:10 |
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jonasbn |
good night all you lovely Perl 6 ppl - I hope it will work out to get you to Copenhagen |
| 22:10 |
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| 22:12 |
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eiro |
oops ... i click on the "fork button" on github :) |
| 22:13 |
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mberends |
eiro: it tends to happen in the course of other proto development. it needs volunteer time, so it's quite irregular. behind that is the philosophy that proto is the simplest thing that could possibly work, and that it should make way for a better tool asap. |
| 22:14 |
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Tene |
can anyone here confirm that try{} in Perl 6 should *NOT* catch return? |
| 22:14 |
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| 22:14 |
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mberends |
eiro: are you looking at proto's installed-modules branch? |
| 22:15 |
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coke |
Tene: aside from me? =-) |
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Tene |
coke: last I heard, you were asking whether it should or not. Did you have this confirmed? |
| 22:16 |
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| 22:16 |
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coke |
pmichaud agrees. |
| 22:16 |
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Tene |
is this all control exeptions, or just return? |
| 22:16 |
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coke |
all control exceptions, no? |
| 22:16 |
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eiro |
mberends, no... i'm on master |
| 22:16 |
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eiro |
mberends, not good ? |
| 22:16 |
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coke |
"A CATCH block handles only "bad" exceptions, and lets control exceptions pass unhindered." |
| 22:16 |
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Tene |
coke: okay. thanks. |
| 22:17 |
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coke |
(from S04) |
| 22:18 |
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eiro |
mberends, i'm on here now |
| 22:18 |
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mberends |
eiro: the installed-modules branch is more recent, and would perhaps be more suitable for your patching |
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eiro |
mberends, ok... i install gittk to see that (i'm not skilled with git) |
| 22:19 |
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mberends |
eiro: ok |
| 22:22 |
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eiro |
mberends, if i push my patches in my github fork, is it easy for the git maintainers to merge with their own repos ? |
| 22:22 |
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eiro |
is that the best way to do ? |
| 22:22 |
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moritz_ |
eiro: tell us your github ID |
| 22:22 |
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moritz_ |
then we'll add you to proto as a committer |
| 22:22 |
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moritz_ |
and you push directly |
| 22:22 |
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moritz_ |
less hassle, everyone's happy :-) |
| 22:23 |
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eiro |
my github id is eiro |
| 22:23 |
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moritz_ |
hugme: add eiro to proto |
| 22:23 |
|
* hugme |
hugs eiro. Welcome to proto! |
| 22:23 |
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eiro |
:) |
| 22:23 |
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eiro |
thanks |
| 22:23 |
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mberends |
moritz_++ # coolness! |
| 22:24 |
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moritz_ |
eiro: thank you for the great patches to come :-) |
| 22:25 |
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sjohnson |
y0 |
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eiro |
moritz_, haha ... i don't know if it would be great patches :) |
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pmurias |
mberends: is you secret project ready to be unvailed |
| 22:44 |
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pmurias |
? |
| 22:45 |
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mberends |
sorry, was afk. no, unfortunately :( |
| 22:45 |
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moritz_ |
what's the matter with your guys? everbody has a secrit project, it seems :-) |
| 22:46 |
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moritz_ |
masak, mberends, tene... |
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mberends |
too ashamed to show the (buggy) code ;) |
| 22:47 |
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eiro |
:)) |
| 22:47 |
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mberends |
HDD = Hubris Driven Development, has pros and cons |
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frettled |
moritz_: I only know about others' secret projects, I don't have any of my own. |
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wayland |
I can tell you what's up with the secret projects; those who talk about their projects (I have maybe 4 I talk about) aren't actually working on them :) |
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carlin |
talk while the tests are running :-) |
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Wolfman2000 |
back from errands/work. pmichaud: I replied to your post. |
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Wolfman2000 |
pmichaud++ |
| 23:16 |
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pmichaud |
Wolfman2000: replied to your reply to my reply :) |
| 23:16 |
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Wolfman2000 |
Nothing wrong with shortcuts, but often times roleplaying games also look at the values of individual dice, not just the total. |
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frettled |
I want to write a reply to the reply^3, but I think it may turn into a blog entry instead. |
| 23:24 |
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frettled |
Yet another excuse for delaying my post about time, the setting, and Temporal.pm. |
| 23:26 |
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carlin |
http://gist.github.com/257402#file_gistfile1.txt # What does it mean if rakudo keeps dying with this output? |
| 23:27 |
|
Tene |
That's a Parrot bug. |
| 23:28 |
|
Tene |
You should report it to parrot and open a trac ticket about it, ideally. |
| 23:28 |
|
Tene |
The GC and calling conventions are getting some attention lately, so chances are good of getting someone to notice it. |
| 23:28 |
|
Tene |
If you could identify which line it's failing on, that would be ideal. |
| 23:31 |
|
* IllvilJa |
impatiently checking the Perl 6 advent calendar (it has been December 16th for over 30 minutes now in Sweden...) |
| 23:33 |
|
carlin |
IllvilJa: it has been the 16th for 12 hours and 30 minutes here :-) |
| 23:34 |
|
jnthn |
carlin: ooh...what are the winning lottery numbers for the morning draw? ;-) |
| 23:34 |
|
IllvilJa |
The men from the future :-D. We are time travelers! |
| 23:36 |
|
Wolfman2000 |
The post for the 16th is to come in...at least 30 minutes from now |
| 23:36 |
|
carlin |
Tene: filled the program with warn statements, so I'll wait until it crashes again and then open a trac ticket |
| 23:36 |
|
Tene |
carlin: Great, thanks. |
| 23:37 |
|
wayland |
carlin: Where are you? New Zealand? |
| 23:37 |
|
carlin |
wayland: yip |
| 23:37 |
|
wayland |
(Australia myself :) ) |
| 23:39 |
|
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| 23:39 |
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hanekomu_ joined #perl6 |
| 23:53 |
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| 23:54 |
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| 23:56 |
|
sjohnson |
hi |
| 23:56 |
|
colomon |
Next Advent post should be in five minutes... |
| 23:56 |
|
IllvilJa |
Wooooo! |
| 23:57 |
|
* IllvilJa |
hitting 'reload' button frantically |
| 23:58 |
|
eiro |
ok .. patch is working but i can't push: |
| 23:58 |
|
eiro |
http://pastebin.com/d1d46eef4 |
