Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 ash__ joined #perl6
00:06 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 18: Roles': http://perl6advent.wordpress.​com/2009/12/18/day-18-roles/
00:07 _jaldhar joined #perl6
00:09 diakopter pmurias: sorry (was afk)
00:10 diakopter pmurias: let's wait on that idea; keep at the translation of STD output, I'd recommend...
00:19 diakopter quiet the past hour...
00:19 pmurias diakopter: doing git svn dcommit then ;)
00:23 carlin jnthn++ # 'does' good advent posts
00:40 pmurias mildew-js now only fails to more tests then before moving to new STD (because the newer STD cannot parse those) ;)
00:41 pmurias s/to/2/
00:43 cotto_w0rk who's in charge of the advent calendar?  The code needs some indentation love.
00:46 diakopter cotto_w0rk: you? :)
00:47 cotto_w0rk definitely not me
00:48 arnsholt It'll have to be someone with the right permissions in Wordpress, I'd bet =)
00:50 * chromatic will send the release announcement later tonight
00:53 justatheory joined #perl6
01:05 dduncan joined #perl6
01:12 payload joined #perl6
01:31 JimmyZ joined #perl6
01:52 tsbtmn joined #perl6
01:53 tjc joined #perl6
02:23 agentzh joined #perl6
02:24 RichiH joined #perl6
02:30 patspam joined #perl6
02:33 colomon_ joined #perl6
02:38 tarski joined #perl6
02:43 mikehh joined #perl6
02:54 patspam1 joined #perl6
02:56 gfx joined #perl6
02:57 RichiH joined #perl6
03:08 colomon joined #perl6
03:13 justatheory joined #perl6
03:20 colomon_ joined #perl6
03:28 colomon phenny: tell jnthn Somehow all the code formatting had disappeared from your post.  I just did my best to get it back, but you might want to double-check it to make sure I got it more or less the way you would like it.
03:28 phenny colomon: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
03:50 constant joined #perl6
03:50 ssm joined #perl6
03:50 parduncia joined #perl6
04:02 constant joined #perl6
04:02 ssm joined #perl6
04:02 parduncia joined #perl6
04:15 PerlJam succeed/proceed  +1
05:03 meppl joined #perl6
05:34 matsuzine_ joined #perl6
05:44 mz_ joined #perl6
05:50 japhb nqp: my $foo; sub say_foo () { say($foo) }; INIT { $foo := "Foo"; }; say_foo()
05:50 p6eval nqp: ␤
05:50 japhb How do I make that work?
05:52 TimToady nqp: state $foo = "Foo"; sub say_foo () { say($foo) }; say_foo();  # maybe?
05:52 p6eval nqp: Confused at line 1, near "state $foo"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤
05:52 TimToady # maybe not...
05:53 TimToady obviousl you need a "so quite perl"
05:53 TimToady *ly
05:54 japhb well, sure.  :-)
05:54 japhb Of course, since I'm trying to write something to help install SQP, I'm kinda stuck.  ;-)
05:54 justatheory joined #perl6
06:12 diakopter std: so so 1
06:12 p6eval std 29369: Undeclared routine:␤  'so' used at line 1,1␤ok 00:01 104m␤
06:13 diakopter std: not 1
06:13 p6eval std 29369: ok 00:01 105m␤
06:13 diakopter std; true True
06:13 diakopter std: true True
06:13 p6eval std 29369: ok 00:01 105m␤
06:13 diakopter std: so not True
06:13 p6eval std 29369: Undeclared routine:␤  'so' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 105m␤
06:13 diakopter std: use ValleyGirl;
06:14 p6eval std 29369: Potential difficulties:␤  Can't locate module ValleyGirl at /tmp/LvcGxV390P line 1:␤------> [32muse ValleyGirl[33m⏏[31m;[0m␤ok 00:01 103m␤
06:16 diakopter std: that is, like, so like, so not True
06:16 p6eval std 29369: Undeclared routines:␤ 'is' used at line 1␤     'like' used at line 1,1␤  'so' used at line 1,1␤    'that' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 106m␤
06:16 hicx174 joined #perl6
06:19 TimToady and stuff
06:40 Caelum joined #perl6
06:46 diakopter rakudo: say (!!7).WHAT === (Bool::True).WHAT === (true 7).WHAT
06:47 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 1␤
06:47 diakopter pugs: say 3 ?? !!4 !! 5
06:47 p6eval pugs: 1␤
06:47 diakopter rakudo: say 3 ?? !!4 !! 5
06:47 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 1␤
06:48 moritz_ std: say 3 ?? !!4 !! 5
06:48 p6eval std 29369: ok 00:01 105m␤
06:48 diakopter rakudo: say 3 ?? !!0 !! 5
06:48 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 0␤
06:52 diakopter rakudo: sub so { !!$^a }; say (so not True).WHAT
06:52 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: Bool()␤
06:52 Su-Shee joined #perl6
06:59 diakopter twitter dieth
06:59 diakopter oooo http://www.flickr.com/photos/ceronman/4194674390/
07:03 diakopter I'd tweet that url, but ...
07:03 moritz_ hugme: tweet hugmetest test
07:04 hugme moritz_: Sorry, I don't have access to twitter account 'hugmetest'
07:04 moritz_ hugme: tweet hugme_test test
07:04 * hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
07:06 TimToady std: so so ...
07:06 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 107m␤
07:06 TimToady std: not so so so ...
07:06 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 105m␤
07:06 moritz_ so you think that's funny? :-)
07:07 TimToady std: not so true
07:07 p6eval std 29370: Undeclared routine:␤  'true' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 105m␤
07:08 TimToady std: so say my @friends
07:08 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 106m␤
07:09 TimToady std: [1...]
07:09 p6eval std 29370: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Missing term at /tmp/2LLfdQa8Wx line 1:␤------> [32m[1...[33m⏏[31m][0m␤    expecting any of:␤     prefix or term␤   standard stopper␤ term␤   terminator␤       whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 105m␤
07:10 diakopter oh, they recovered twitter quickly
07:12 TimToady std: 1......
07:12 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 104m␤
07:12 TimToady std: .........
07:13 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 104m␤
07:13 diakopter std: ... ... ... ...
07:13 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 104m␤
07:14 diakopter std: ...: # SLTA error
07:14 p6eval std 29370: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Illegal use of colon as invocant marker at /tmp/lavfQDCEsF line 1:␤------> [32m...:[33m⏏[31m # SLTA error[0m␤FAILED 00:01 104m␤
07:14 TimToady what do you think it should say?  :)
07:15 TimToady something like Huh?
07:15 diakopter "not everyone gets the colon"
07:15 diakopter "I think you need a colonectomy"
07:16 diakopter "..or perhaps a colostomy, or maybe just a colonoscopyo"
07:16 diakopter "..or perhaps a colostomy, or maybe just a colonoscopy"
07:17 diakopter sorry
07:17 TimToady std: so not funny
07:17 p6eval std 29370: Undeclared routine:␤  'funny' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 105m␤
07:19 diakopter std: so so !! any 1 but self
07:19 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 105m␤
07:19 TimToady std: not so eager
07:19 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 105m␤
07:20 TimToady std: not so hyper # bedtime
07:20 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 105m␤
07:20 moritz_ good night
07:20 diakopter moritz_: nite
07:20 diakopter I mean
07:20 diakopter heh
07:20 diakopter moritz_: g'morning
07:21 moritz_ :-)
07:26 mariuz joined #perl6
07:28 diakopter std: class must does must does must does must does must does must { }
07:28 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 104m␤
07:32 kaare joined #perl6
07:47 iblechbot joined #perl6
07:55 spinclad std: so not hyper
07:55 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 106m␤
07:55 chromatic joined #perl6
07:56 spinclad std: not so True
07:56 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 105m␤
07:56 spinclad std: so not True
07:56 p6eval std 29370: ok 00:01 105m␤
07:57 spinclad std: so antonymous!
07:57 p6eval std 29370: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infix at /tmp/IQ8QDSLV9V line 1:␤------> [32mso antonymous![33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤    expecting any of:␤   infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ terminator␤Undeclared routine:␤
07:57 p6eval ..'antonymous' used at lin…
07:58 spinclad std: so not the same
07:58 p6eval std 29370: Undeclared routines:␤ 'same' used at line 1␤   'the' used at line 1␤ok 00:01 105m␤
07:58 chromatic Do I have posting permissions on rakudo.org?
07:59 diakopter prob not
07:59 chromatic Can someone with permissions post the release announcement?
07:59 diakopter I think only alester and pmichaud
07:59 diakopter and jnthn
08:00 moritz_ and me
08:00 moritz_ and masak
08:00 moritz_ and all previous release managers :-)
08:00 chromatic Well volunteered!
08:02 moritz_ either rakudo.org or my internets are slow
08:03 moritz_ http://rakudo.org/node/61
08:03 chromatic Thanks!
08:03 moritz_ chromatic++ # managing one of the most difficult releases so far
08:04 chromatic Especially on a basketball night.
08:06 diakopter quietfanatic++ helped me talk out how to manage declarative API for labels/gotos in declarative MSIL generation (runsharp.googlecode.com)
08:07 masak joined #perl6
08:07 diakopter masak: hm
08:07 masak good morning.
08:09 moritz_ lolitsmasak
08:09 moritz_ is there a book release today?
08:09 Tene anyone willing to comment on preferred style for p6advent posts?
08:09 masak moritz_: yes, I have a feeling there is.
08:09 Tene Oh, it's masak!  I bet I can con him into doing it!
08:10 masak Tene: 'preferred style'?
08:10 masak we're anarchists!
08:10 Tene masak: I'm talking about Grammars... think there's any value in including the long output of .perl on a match object?
08:10 Tene 232 lines.
08:10 Tene Or just snip it?
08:10 masak eurgh.
08:11 Tene Maybe just print parts of it...
08:11 masak keep it short, I think.
08:11 moritz_ Tene: you could include a visualization
08:11 masak moritz_++
08:11 Tene ... ><
08:11 moritz_ Tene: I've written a moduel for that
08:11 Tene Orly?
08:12 moritz_ pointme: SVG::MatchDumper
08:12 pointme Sorry, I don't know anything about SVG::MatchDumper
08:12 Tene I wrote a little program once to generate graphs of STD.pm and Rakudo's grammar.  That was fun.
08:12 moritz_ http://github.com/moritz/svg-matchdumper
08:13 moritz_ I need to check if it bitrotted
08:14 Tene Hmm.  i'd need to install SVG.pm too.
08:14 Tene Maybe I just make you generate the svg for me.
08:15 lisppaste3 tene pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92302
08:19 moritz_ I don't know if it handles multi-line input...
08:19 masak wohoo! the first Rakudo release with a negative number of additional passing spectests! \o/
08:19 moritz_ nope, not useful :(
08:19 diakopter cool; I got the declarative labels/gotos to work: http://mono.pastebin.com/d37392572
08:22 masak ooh, also (.grab)++
08:22 masak TimToady: should there be an Array.grab as well?
08:24 masak (for the times when one wants to mutate the array as well as return the picked items)
08:24 colomon joined #perl6
08:25 JimmyZ_ joined #perl6
08:26 masak ooh, and (succeed/proceed)++! only good changes this mroing! :)
08:42 Chillance joined #perl6
08:42 Tene Up to 112 lines long blog post!  Almost halfway to the length of that match object. ;)
08:42 Tene Hmm.  This looks to be rather longer than most of the existing posts.
08:43 Tene Anyone willing to review it so far?
08:45 Chillance joined #perl6
08:46 mathw OH HAI
08:46 * masak reviews it
08:46 mathw Tene: what's it about?
08:47 lisppaste3 tene pasted "p6advent WIP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92303
08:47 Chillance joined #perl6
08:47 Tene mathw: grammars and action methods.
08:47 Chillance joined #perl6
08:47 masak Tene: no riff on 'today's gift' in the beginning? :)
08:47 colomon wait, where is it to be reviewed?.... oh, that's freaky, the paste came up here just as I finished typing the first half of the sentence.
08:48 Tene I'm about halfway done.
08:48 bl joined #perl6
08:48 Chillance joined #perl6
08:49 masak Tene: why token + <.ws> instead of rule?
08:49 Chillance joined #perl6
08:50 Baggio_ joined #perl6
08:50 Chillance joined #perl6
08:50 Tene masak: I didn't really want to get into regex/token/rule any more than I did, and I wanted to be precise about whitespace because it's used to differentiate answer/header, and I wanted a reason to mention leading ., and to be more idiomatic
08:51 Tene s/more idiomatic/because that's how I was initially inclined to write it/
08:51 masak :P
08:51 masak fair enough. not a big issue; I was just a tad surprised.
08:52 * Tene nods.
08:52 Tene I thought about it.
08:53 masak $_<header><text>
08:53 silug joined #perl6
08:53 masak better written as .<header><text>
08:53 colomon oooo, oooo, I want to see what comes next!
08:55 masak also, if it's not too late to change, the class name 'Answer' feels a tad confusing. would it be better to name it 'Alternative' or 'Option' or 'Item'?
08:55 Tene Those are a bit too vague, IMO.
08:55 Tene You've got your Correct Answers and Incorrect Answers.
08:56 masak it's just that Question::Answer feels like a wonky type name.
08:56 masak but oh well.
08:56 masak maybe type $.correct as a Bool?
08:56 Tene I'm a bit opinionated about that right now.  I've spent the past week trying to keep similar things in this semantic space different, so...
08:56 Tene Oh, did I not include that?
08:56 JimmyZ_ masak: http://chinesepod.com/
08:57 Tene Yes, let's.
08:57 masak JimmyZ_: 太好了! 谢谢.
08:58 Su-Shee hm. why do I still have this font rendering problem in certain ranges..
08:58 JimmyZ masak: I don't know any more about it. Just find it.
08:58 mathw Tene: looks okay so far
08:59 masak JimmyZ: thanks for thinking of me.
08:59 JimmyZ :)
08:59 Tene masak: opinions on iterating over $<answer> and $<question> in the action method vs >>.ast ?
08:59 Tene We did already have a post about >>.
08:59 masak Tene: if it's without side effects, >>. is fine.
09:00 masak IMHO.
09:00 Tene Yes, I thought that too.
09:03 mathw yeah >>. is great if you're not worried about ordering or interleving
09:05 masak ordering in the temporal sense.
09:06 masak the order of the sequence that comes out corresponds to the order of the sequence that goes in.
09:07 sjohnson yo masak
09:07 masak 'sup sjohnson
09:07 mathw masak: yes, I was referring more to order of execution
09:07 mathw well, entirely, actually
09:08 masak :)
09:09 sjohnson masak: just drinking some wine and checkin the internet
09:10 masak sjohnson: well, here we are. the Internet. and we're looking back at you. :)
09:11 mathw mmmmm wine
09:11 mathw I doubt my manager would like it if I started drinking wine in the meeting we're having in a bit
09:11 mathw Although he'd probably be happy to join in
09:12 mathw Maybe I should go to the shop...
09:13 Tene oh man, this prose really needs some review.  I'm not very confident in it.  'sec, lemme post.
09:13 sjohnson just buy a nice looking bottle
09:13 sjohnson and say it's to celebrate sometihng
09:14 sjohnson much better idea than what i did, which was bring a 6 pack to work!!!
09:14 sjohnson <--- learned his lesson
09:14 lisppaste3 tene pasted "more p6advent WIP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92304
09:16 Tene I'm particularly interested in feedback on anything after /As you can guess/
09:16 JimmyZ wow,more long
09:17 Tene JimmyZ: too long for p6advent?
09:17 JimmyZ no, It's better.
09:17 spinclad Tene: s/:action/:actions/
09:18 Tene spinclad: only in ng, not in master.
09:18 Tene I'll add a note that it will be different eventually, though.  Thanks.
09:19 spinclad ah, i remembered the transition but forgot when it happened. my bad.
09:19 Tene yeah, it tripped me up too.
09:19 masak is this the first mention of the ng branch in an advent post? or did someone mention it before?
09:20 Tene enoclue
09:20 Tene day 14 mentions it
09:20 Tene "One interesting development which has not made it into the main Rakudo build yet is decimal numbers in the source are now spec’d to be Rats. Luckily this is implemented in the ng branch, so it is possible to demo how it will work once it is in mainstream Rakudo"
09:20 spinclad are the implicit {*}'s in master? they also transitioned in.
09:21 Tene spinclad: they are not.
09:21 masak Tene: "Named and Positional access (<> and []) without a variable name go to $/." -- I know what you mean, but I'm not sure a reader would.
09:21 Tene Yeah, that's not great.
09:22 masak perhaps concrete examples would be better.
09:22 Tene "Named and Positional access without a variable name ($<foo>, $[0]) go to ..."
09:22 Tene ?
09:22 masak something like "$1 translates to $/[1] and $<foo> translates to $/<foo>"
09:22 moritz_ $<foo> is a shortcut for $/<foo> and $1 a shortcut for $/[1]
09:22 masak yes.
09:23 Tene Yes, I like that.  Thank you.
09:24 Tene "Named and Positional access without a variable ($<foo> and $[1]) are translated into access to $/ ($/<foo> and $/[1])." ?
09:24 masak by the way, Happy 22th birthday! \o/
09:24 Tene Whose?
09:25 masak Tene: Perl's.
09:25 Tene Ah!
09:25 masak s/th/nd/
09:26 masak Tene: I'd slap on a ", respectively" in the 2nd parenthesis, but that's mostly because I like the word. :)
09:26 Tene ", masakspectively"
09:27 rfordinal joined #perl6
09:27 masak erm. In the Wikipedia article for Perl, under section "Future", it says "Main article: Perl 6".
09:28 masak wonder what the #perl people would think about that...
09:28 moritz_ :-)
09:28 masak I think I'll go and ask them. :)
09:33 krakan joined #perl6
09:33 masak I was quickly told that Perl 6 is not released yet. maybe next year.
09:33 JimmyZ joined #perl6
09:35 frettled Haha :)
09:36 wayland76 Well, they must be fine with it, right?
09:36 Su-Shee this bickering between the perls could stop some day. ;)
09:37 wayland76 yes -- as soon as we decide it's casting our perls before swine :)
09:40 mathw I want to know, ignoring any concerns about implementation and migration, why there are some people who say they don't like Perl 6 the language
09:40 mathw As in, what don't they like about it
09:40 mathw Why do they think Perl 5 is better?
09:41 mathw Are there technical arguments, or is it just people not wanting to deal with something different?
09:41 Tene mathw: I have a friend who HATES it, apparently because it disallows dropping a space between 'if' and parens around a condition.
09:41 wayland76 Some of them it's just CPAN, but others, I don't know
09:41 wayland76 Ah, yes, there are those
09:41 Su-Shee perl 5 is there, fast, usable, with a vast landscape of modules.
09:41 frettled mathw: Ah.  There are plenty of reasons for that, rationally and irrationally.  Rationally, Perl 5 works today, it's reasonably quick, its core features don't change every week, and yes, CPAN.
09:41 wayland76 I don't like that either (the if-space thing), but I can live with it to get the rest
09:43 frettled Yeah, the significant whitespace-thing is definitely something that you have to be extremely careful with, also in mentioning. :)
09:43 mathw Tene: but... you can drop the brackets completely!
09:43 Tene mathw: that's even worse, according to him.
09:44 mathw ...
09:44 mathw I can't comprehend that
09:44 mathw I look at Perl 6 code and it feels clean and airy
09:44 spinclad Tene: (re draft): I know I have a hard time, in exposition like this, achieving a tone that is light and still precise, complete but not heavy.  This seems a very good draft: a good choice of toy, well explained.  Perhaps in polishing I would look to maintain an awareness of the setting (opening presents under the tree) and let it help with lightness of tone.
09:44 mathw Largely because of that
09:44 wayland76 Well, I've been writing Perl and C for the last 14 years, and doing it that way.  I can understand not wanting to have to re-learn
09:45 Tene mathw: it has to do with hoe he chunks code as he reads it.
09:45 Su-Shee mathw: yeah, that's all great and pretty and shiny - and what exactly do I use in the office for web programming with a data base and SSL? or for network programming? or for parsing 200 gig logfiles _per day_?
09:45 Tene how
09:45 Su-Shee you may insist on believing it's about "not wanting to learn" - it's not.
09:46 Su-Shee (which is a pretty nasty assumption on the side of the perl6 folks, btw.)
09:47 mathw Su-Shee: I specifically said this is apart from migration issues, current development state, performance etc.
09:47 mathw It's obvious that people are going to be reluctant to move away from a proven system
09:47 Su-Shee mathw: so, what exactly is left then?
09:47 mathw The language design itself
09:47 moritz_ dislike for the language, community, learning process, websites
09:47 Su-Shee "use Perl 6 - if you don't need speed, don't have to migrate, need no module and don't need a complete implementation"? :)
09:48 Su-Shee yeah and yet you all care so very much what the perl 5 folks think about you... ;)
09:49 mathw I'm not saying those things aren't important, but I understand why people raise them, so that's why I was specifically excluding them
09:49 mathw But there are people posting things in which they say they don't like the language itself, and that's what intrigues me
09:49 lisppaste3 tene pasted "Full p6advent draft" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92305
09:49 Su-Shee mathw: so try to understand that for many people _those_ _are_ the issues. no matter how nice the language itself might be.
09:50 spinclad sure, the language has a lot of growing up to do.
09:51 mathw Su-Shee: And as I said, I'm not curious about those people because I understand those objections.
09:51 Su-Shee I'm rather undecided up until now wether or not I really like Perl 6 as long as I constantly bump into some limits. and the "it'll be there' is a little old for someone like me who already did Perl in '96 and really waited from 2000 over pugs until today. ;)
09:51 frettled heh
09:52 mathw Perl 6 the language is distinct from Perl 6 as you can currently run it, and I'm interested in why people might dislike the language.
09:52 frettled I recall that at NPW in 2006, there was something about pugs, but it wasn't terribly interesting.
09:52 frettled Rakudo and ng, however, give me positive vibes.
09:52 Su-Shee because it's typing hell on a non english keyboard. because the operator zoo is hell of confusing. for starters.
09:53 Tene Su-Shee: can you explain non-english keyboard problems with Perl 6?
09:53 moritz_ Su-Shee++ # talking turkey  (if I my trust my dictionary)
09:53 mathw The operator zoo?
09:53 Su-Shee moritz_: sounds christmassy :)
09:54 moritz_ Su-Shee: american englisch for "Tacheles"
09:54 frettled mathw: Well, as I said, the significant whitespace thingy is annoying.  There are other things in P6 which are similar enough to other languages on the surface, but which surprise you when you dig into them.  The specification is unfinished, and it keeps changing.  It's a language for theorists, not for programmers, since there is no implementation to test it on.  Etc.
09:54 Su-Shee Tene: I already hated the sigils anyway and I have small hands, I have to grab keys like @ % $ for example with annoying finger acrobatics.
09:55 frettled And yes, it's a bother on a non-english keyboard, but Perl 5 isn't much better there.
09:55 Su-Shee which is why I would prefer languages with very few special chars.
09:55 mathw An unfinished spec and a lack of implementation are not objections to the actual language, they're reasons not to use it yet.
09:56 frettled mathw: Yes, actually they are.
09:56 Su-Shee {} plainly sucks on a german keyboard.
09:56 frettled mathw: The unfinished spec most definitely is an objection to the actual language.
09:56 mathw Su-Shee: is Python more popular in Germany then?
09:56 frettled mathw: The lack of an implementation makes it an _impractical_ language.
09:56 Su-Shee mathw: perl isn't popular anymore at all, most folks switched to ruby, python, java, php. there's a functional fashion wave, though.
09:58 mathw Functional programming is an eminently sane way to think about certain kinds of system
09:58 mathw Despite what Guido might think
09:58 Su-Shee anyway. I have my reasons why I like both Perls, but there's many hurdles Perl 6 has yet to take.
09:58 Su-Shee Guido?
09:58 frettled Yep.
09:59 mathw Guido, the Python man
09:59 Su-Shee ah, that guido.
09:59 Su-Shee I don't care, I know some python, but I don't like it. it's not sexy even though it's great to type.
09:59 mathw There was some scuffle over getting rid of a load of functional constructs from the core, and an ongoing thing about tailcall optimisation
09:59 mathw Python is... not nice
09:59 frettled I like Perl 6 for the learning experience.  I like it for fixing some of the annoyances with Perl 5.  And I like it for simplifying a bunch of things.  :)
10:00 mathw It's got nice bits, but I find its inability to have strict variable declarations or parameter type annotations is a great weakness in readability and maintainability
10:00 mathw oop
10:00 * mathw -> boring meeting
10:02 Su-Shee well I want write code and get projects out and use my favorite language in the office and earn money with it and do open source and like the language and the community. if I don't get that, I ignore the language, no matter how cool or clean or nice or xy-complete its design might be.
10:03 masak Su-Shee: I think that's one of the chief (valid) criticisms of Perl 5 people. Perl 5 puts food on their family, why should they care about Perl 6?
10:04 masak Su-Shee: of course, people who think like that don't hang out on #perl6.
10:04 masak well, unless they can see the other side of the coin, that is.
10:06 Su-Shee I think, Perl (5) people need a certain dynamic in the development - they all like shiny, crazy projects and practical modules and such. and that's something Perl 6 isn't there yet.
10:06 frettled Perl 5.10 and 5.12 is upsetting the stability of Perl!  ;)
10:06 frettled s/is/are/
10:07 frettled Darn sentence rewriting thingy in my brain forgets to fix such things.
10:07 masak frettled: could be a precedence thing. :P
10:10 Su-Shee and #perl6 has a very academic taste sometimes, even I have difficulties to actually see a future for us common folks. ;)
10:10 masak Su-Shee: right. it's a bit like enduring the lowered living standards while people are redoing your kitchen. Perl 5 people say "why the heck would we want to do have breakfast at a table all wrapped in ugly plastic? our house is fine as it is, why should we switch to one which isn't even finished yet just for the promise of some great faraway future?"
10:11 masak I think p6l has a very academic taste. #perl6 used to intimidate me, but I think I've grown used to the jargon here.
10:13 Tene Okay, my p6advent post for day 21 is scheduled.
10:13 Tene If someone else could confirm that it's set to be posted at the right time, that would be great.
10:14 frettled Tene++
10:15 Tene I really have no taste for the christmas-themed flavor stuff, so anyone who thinks it needs some of that, feel free to add it.
10:15 rfordinal left #perl6
10:15 Su-Shee well, unless the futuere is actually the presence, Perl 6 is competing with many other great languages one could try who doesn't have the vast CPAN environment.
10:16 snearch joined #perl6
10:17 payload joined #perl6
10:17 masak give a Perl 6 implementation sufficient speed and sufficient access to Perl 5/CPAN, and it doesn't matter what subset of Perl 6 it implements. people will love it.
10:18 spinclad Tene++  # as of the last pasted draft, anyway.  reads well.  no access to the pending posts, will worry about that another time.
10:20 Tene masak: Given an appropriate viewing angle, you just described Perl 5. ;)
10:21 masak Tene: I'm aware of that. :)
10:21 vamped joined #perl6
10:21 masak which is why I use Perl 5 quite a lot, too.
10:21 spinclad masak: not all subsets make a whole I would love for its sixness...
10:22 masak spinclad: true. I think I must have exaggerated.
10:22 masak but the fact is that it doesn't take very much.
10:22 vamped do I understand correctly, that perl6 will be backward compatible with perl5, and will run perl5 code?
10:22 masak I remember using a very reduced subset 18 months ago and loving it.
10:22 masak vamped: that is the idea, yes.
10:22 spinclad but speed and access to fiveness are _big_ plusses
10:23 masak vamped: not backward compatible, though. just able to bridge the language gap seamlessly.
10:23 frettled vamped: as in-line Perl 5 code
10:23 vamped wow. seems like that will be tough to pull off.
10:24 masak it's not trivial.
10:24 frettled It's a bit worse than in-line assembly in C. :)
10:24 frettled I also suspect that this is not a _top_ priority.
10:24 BinGOs if you can do that, you can leverage existing CPAN assuming you have a suitable supporting toolchain for installation etc.
10:28 * spinclad to bed &  ~~
10:30 RichiH hmm, i just had an idea.. how about an option that can be set which enables verbose signal handling? i.e., by default, it would say something like 'Caught SIGTERM, exiting' or 'Caught SIGHUP, doing nothing'.
10:31 * Tene sleep
10:31 masak RichiH: sounds like a good job for a module.
10:31 RichiH masak: or that. though i am not sure how to access that info properly
10:31 RichiH might be a weekend project if someone gives me a hint or two :)
10:32 masak S17 mentions signals, but is admittedly underspec'd.
10:33 masak RichiH: don't want to discourage you, but I fear it might be too early. Rakudo doesn't do signals yet; nor does any other implementation I know of.
10:33 RichiH masak: heh, that might be a bit of a showstopper
10:33 RichiH where should i put this idea so it does not get lost?
10:33 RichiH other than my ever-growing todo list?
10:34 Su-Shee RichiH: on the other todolist. ;)
10:36 RichiH Su-Shee: but where is it?
10:38 Su-Shee RichiH: it's logged now.
10:38 RichiH Su-Shee: link?
10:38 RichiH or do you mean 'in irc log'?
10:38 RichiH which is pretty much useless
10:39 Su-Shee (maybe one of the bots should recognize "idea" commands which are written to some list available on the web.."
10:39 Su-Shee RichiH: yes, there's an extensive irc log available.
10:40 RichiH Su-Shee: maybe a 'proposed feature' list is a tad more useful
10:40 Su-Shee I don't care how it's called :)
10:41 Su-Shee proposed features sounds like "someone should do it" - ideas are "I'll do it when I have component xy available" :)
10:41 wayland76 RichiH: Maybe you could add it to your "list of things to do someday" :)
10:42 RichiH wayland76: 11:33:47 < RichiH> other than my ever-growing todo list?
10:43 RichiH i actually _do_ plan to pursue this, but a way to say 'hey, if you get around to implement signal handling, please give me a poke because i want to implement a proper module for handling it comfortably with perl6' would be nice
10:43 RichiH as, realistically speaking, i will not know of that fact within less than a month or six
10:43 iblechbot_ joined #perl6
10:44 wayland76 RichiH: I'd say make a note to check back in about a year.  S17 is getting no love at the moment, and until it does, it won't be happening
10:45 RichiH wayland76: so it will be ready for christmas?
10:45 RichiH weee!
10:45 RichiH :p
10:46 wayland76 That's the general idea :)
10:56 vamped left #perl6
10:57 Gothmog_ joined #perl6
11:01 frettled :)
11:14 payload joined #perl6
11:16 masak hah -- RT moves so slowly that the spec overtakes it sometimes. :)
11:16 masak has anyone ever figured out why RT ticket updates are so slow in reaching p6c?
11:19 jnthn morning
11:19 phenny jnthn: 03:28Z <colomon> tell jnthn Somehow all the code formatting had disappeared from your post.  I just did my best to get it back, but you might want to double-check it to make sure I got it more or less the way you would like it.
11:19 jnthn wtf.
11:20 jnthn phenny: tell colomon Thanks for clearing that up, looks good. :-)
11:20 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when colomon is around.
11:20 jnthn thanks, phenny
11:20 pdcawley joined #perl6
11:20 masak jnthn: I didn't point it out at the time, but when reviewing the post I saw that you had used <code>...</code> around the code snippets. might have been related to that.
11:21 masak unlike <pre />, <code /> is free-form just like normal HTML, so newlines and many spaces all get collapsed down to one space in rendering.
11:21 moritz_ on perlmonks <code> preserves whitespaces
11:21 moritz_ which adds to confusion
11:22 jnthn masak: oh, hmm
11:22 jnthn it looked fine in the preview, which is all the more odd.
11:22 jnthn Anyway, thanks for fixes and question ansewrs.
11:23 jnthn masak: Your reply on precedence isn't quite right - we are parsing it as a trait mod there.
11:23 masak oh.
11:23 masak please feel free to correct me in the comments.
11:23 jnthn the does in $x does Foo; (mix-in) and the does in class Foo does Bar { } are parsed differently.
11:23 jnthn First is an operator, second is trait.
11:23 jnthn Will post :-)
11:24 masak jnthn: but how would `does A, B` get parsed?
11:27 masak lunch &
11:28 IllvilJa joined #perl6
11:28 moritz_ phenny: tell masak `does` is tighter than comma, so that `my @a = 1 does False, 0 does True` DWYM
11:28 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
11:28 rodi joined #perl6
11:33 Baggio_ joined #perl6
11:36 jnthn std: role A { }; role B { }; class C does A, B { }
11:36 p6eval std 29372: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse class definition at /tmp/C7MPpi8XBb line 1:␤------> [32mrole A { }; role B { }; class C does A[33m⏏[31m, B { }[0m␤    expecting any of:␤  trait␤  whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 106m␤
11:36 jnthn phenny: tell masak it doens't get parsed at the moment :)
11:36 phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
11:40 colomon joined #perl6
11:45 jnthn ooh! new laptop has been shipped!
12:14 colomon joined #perl6
12:26 colomon joined #perl6
12:30 moritz_ it will arrive just after you leave
12:30 * moritz_ has just handed in his diploma thesis, and dances with joy
12:30 moritz_ it's a bit hard to type while dancing
12:30 wayland76 congrats! :)
12:30 moritz_ thanks
12:30 wayland76 have to alternate then
12:31 wayland76 Does that mean that you'll suddenly not have time to do P6 stuff any more?
12:31 moritz_ it means that I'll suddenly have more time to do P6 stuff, at least until I find a job :-)
12:32 wayland76 ...but you should be spending all that time on job searching :)
12:33 Su-Shee moritz_: no oral exam?
12:34 moritz_ Su-Shee: done them already
12:34 Su-Shee moritz_: then we made diplom the same day. :) it's nice that short before christmas.
12:37 moritz_ Su-Shee: this year? :-)
12:38 frettled moritz_: oh, congratulations, this is good news!
12:40 pnu joined #perl6
12:41 Su-Shee moritz_: haha, not even this decade :)
12:42 jnthn moritz_: Congrats! :-)
12:43 moritz_ \o/
12:49 pmurias joined #perl6
12:51 meneldor joined #perl6
12:51 JimmyZ joined #perl6
13:07 * jnthn is happy that his current post attracted some more discussion than his pervious one. :-)
13:08 jnthn Some replies later...lunch!
13:11 plainhao joined #perl6
13:15 takadonet morning all
13:16 JimmyZ joined #perl6
13:19 colomon moritz_: \o/
13:19 phenny colomon: 11:20Z <jnthn> tell colomon Thanks for clearing that up, looks good. :-)
13:20 colomon jnthn: I wonder how it happened?  The code samples looked great in your draft...
13:24 frettled colomon: <code>…</code> instead of using <pre>…</pre>
13:24 frettled (or so masak suggested)
13:25 colomon ah.  definitely was <code>...</code>.  I switched them to [sourcecode][/sourcecode] and then re-indented.
13:25 frettled For my blog on blogspot, I use <pre>…</pre> for greater control.
13:25 frettled I always edit in source mode, though.
13:26 cosimo joined #perl6
13:34 constant joined #perl6
13:34 ssm joined #perl6
13:34 parduncia joined #perl6
13:37 hanekomu joined #perl6
13:37 masak joined #perl6
13:37 masak moritz_: yes, but...
13:37 phenny masak: 11:28Z <moritz_> tell masak `does` is tighter than comma, so that `my @a = 1 does False, 0 does True` DWYM
13:37 phenny masak: 11:36Z <jnthn> tell masak it doens't get parsed at the moment :)
13:38 masak moritz_: ...that's what I answered in the comment, and jnthn said it wasn't applicable because the 'does' in the class decl isn't an operator.
13:42 jnthn masak: I repliedto your post.
13:42 masak jnthn: looks good. thanks.
13:44 masak I like the other answer even better. mostly because it's a slightly provocative question. :)
13:44 masak we need that. all this advent stuff has made outsiders too nice to us. :P
13:45 jnthn masak: It's a fair enough quesiton. :-)
13:45 masak oh, definitely.
13:46 jnthn The bigger innovation is in the composition mechanism, whereas I think the asker was thinking more of the parametric part.
13:46 masak it was the combination of a knowledgeable question and the 'but isn't this just...' tone that I liked. :)
13:46 constant joined #perl6
13:46 ssm joined #perl6
13:46 parduncia joined #perl6
13:46 jnthn "but isn't that just..." is often a good question to ask anyway.
13:46 masak yes.
13:46 jnthn I often (at lesat mentally) ask it when I see new stuff.
13:47 jnthn OK, @house-chore for a bit...family are coming back tomorrow morning!
13:47 masak I think there's a class of people who prefer to learn that way. I'm one of them, too.
13:48 abra joined #perl6
13:48 constant joined #perl6
13:48 ssm joined #perl6
13:48 parduncia joined #perl6
13:49 iblechbot joined #perl6
13:50 t4n4be joined #perl6
13:52 wayland76 Goodnight all :)
13:53 orafu joined #perl6
13:54 JimmyZ goooooood evening.
14:01 masak moritz_++ # building parrot branches with Rakudo and sending emails when they fail
14:01 masak that way, I won't have to be the one to discover the build fail. :)
14:07 colomon_ joined #perl6
14:08 moritz_ hey
14:08 moritz_ I just had a "great" idea
14:08 moritz_ I could couple the IRC logs with karma tracking
14:09 moritz_ i can haz 2.6M lines of IRC logs
14:09 meneldor Hello all, what i need to be able to test perl6 on my WinXP without Administrative rights (i cannot install anything on my pc) ?
14:10 moritz_ meneldor: I'm not a windows user, so I have no idea what works...
14:10 moritz_ meneldor: but maybe the packages from http://sourceforge.net/projects/parrotwin32/ can be installed without admin rights
14:11 moritz_ meneldor: or if you already have a compiler and perl installed, you can compile rakudo from source
14:11 meneldor im not windows user too but right now im on guest Win OS so i've got some limitations :)
14:11 [particle] strawberry perl is a compiler and perl
14:11 masak PerlJam: did you follow the docs/release_guide.pod when you released the book last month?
14:11 * PerlJam would go with strawberry perl
14:12 PerlJam masak: pretty sure I did.  why?
14:12 masak PerlJam: well, I was curious about that months announcement...
14:12 gabiruh joined #perl6
14:12 [particle] download and install strawberry perl, then download rakudo and build from source
14:13 masak PerlJam: I find it here http://rakudo.org/node/60 but not in the repo itself.
14:13 PerlJam doh!  I just just checked my local repo.  I never committed it.
14:13 meneldor tnx i will try parrotwin32
14:14 masak PerlJam: I'll add that step to the release guide. :)
14:15 PerlJam committed and pushed
14:15 masak PerlJam++
14:15 meneldor dammit :) it wants to write to the registry and i dont have permissions
14:16 masak meneldor: I only know one Windows Rakudo user, and that's jnthn. pretty sure he has root, though. :)
14:17 meneldor if i was at home i could install it on my ubuntu but right now....
14:17 jnthn I also tend to build from source.
14:17 masak :)
14:17 jnthn Which you can do without admin rights if the right tools are already installed.
14:18 jnthn Which is probably the sticking point. :-(
14:18 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
14:18 dalek book: 680b5b8 | duff++ | docs/announce/2009-11:
14:18 dalek book: belated checkin of Nov release announcements
14:18 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/68​0b5b89cd66338b69c6df96c5e140e510a54993
14:18 colomon o/
14:18 dalek book: a6ee18a | duff++ | src/preface.pod:
14:18 jnthn morning, pmichaud
14:18 dalek book: Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:perl6/book
14:18 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/a6​ee18ac0f070d7b595ac8784311106ab62ce7f6
14:19 masak mornin', pm.
14:19 meneldor hmm rakudo has been installed successfuly in My documents, but PATH is not set
14:20 colomon Tene: I'd add another word or two about .ast where you introduce it -- I mean, I just figured out how it works (I think), but it took me a few reads to get there.
14:20 patspam joined #perl6
14:22 pmichaud "<ws> is a builtin regex, like <alpha>, <digit>, and friends, that matches whitespace."    <-- this phrasing always bugs me a little
14:23 PerlJam heh, I was just reading that very bit
14:23 masak it's wrong.
14:24 pmichaud "postfix:<>"  and "postfix:[]"  are also a bit on the wrongish side.  I'd eliminate the colons.
14:25 rfordinal joined #perl6
14:25 masak ...and replace them with spaces...
14:25 pmichaud yes
14:25 pmichaud thanks
14:25 pmichaud (I meant that but didn't say it)
14:26 masak :)
14:26 meneldor what means: error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected IDENTIFIER, expecting $end ('my')
14:26 pmichaud it also shouldn't be necessary to instantiate an actions object
14:27 moritz_ meneldor: what did you do to get that error message?
14:27 pmichaud Tene++   # *excellent* explanation of why .comb is better than .split
14:28 * PerlJam wishes those {*} weren't there
14:28 pmichaud yeah, this is a case where the ng branch would've been a lot more useful
14:28 PerlJam yep
14:29 pmichaud sorry about that, folks :-|
14:29 meneldor path\to\parrot.exe path\to\perl6_test_code.pl
14:29 PerlJam meneldor: show the code :)
14:29 jnthn meneldor: Ah, that's why. :-)
14:29 jnthn meneldor: You need to run perl6.exe
14:30 jnthn Not parrot.exe
14:30 meneldor ah i see :)
14:30 dalek book: c40a1dd | masak++ | docs/release-guide.pod:
14:30 dalek book: [docs/release-guide.pod] instructions to push announcement
14:30 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/c4​0a1ddf95b7f0c7c158b762abac59208ad7ef2d
14:30 meneldor but what parrot.exe does then?
14:30 jnthn Parrot expects a Parrot assembly file or bytecode file.
14:30 meneldor tnx
14:31 PerlJam meneldor: Parrot is the underlying VM that Rakudo runs upon.  (still, show us your perl 6 code :)
14:31 * PerlJam is not multi-tasking very well this morning
14:31 payload joined #perl6
14:31 meneldor im a bit confused with all these words rakudo, parrot, pugs etc :)
14:31 meneldor im not sure what to use to be able to test perl 6 code
14:32 PerlJam Rakudo is an implementation of Perl 6.
14:32 PerlJam Rakudo executes on top of Parrot
14:32 masak meneldor++ # confused but persistent!
14:32 PerlJam pugs is an obsolete, unmaintained implementation of Perl 6 that uses Haskell instead of Parrot
14:32 meneldor now im more confused :D
14:33 moritz_ meneldor: I forgot to mention, you also need the perl6 (or rakudo) addon from the parrotwin32 page
14:33 moritz_ setup-parrot-1.9.0-rakudo-24.exe
14:33 meneldor where is the old #!/usr/bin/perl :D
14:33 PerlJam meneldor: get used to it! I always feel confused myself.  I  think it's a natural state on #perl6  :)
14:33 meneldor ok tnx moritz ill try it
14:33 moritz_ and then there'll be a perl6.exe
14:34 moritz_ which you can use to run your Perl 6 programs
14:34 meneldor im perl5 fan from 7 years but i did not try perl 6
14:34 [particle] we forgive you.
14:34 meneldor :D tnx for that
14:36 mikehh joined #perl6
14:42 dalek book: 69a026a | masak++ | docs/announce/2009-12:
14:42 dalek book: [docs/announce/2009-12] created announcement
14:42 dalek book: review: http://github.com/perl6/book/commit/69​a026aa8f8eb46708398e4dc1efa807c3ad3b20
14:46 meneldor setup-parrot-1.9.0-rakudo-24.exe wants admin right to be installed :(
14:47 moritz_ :(
14:47 meneldor ok ill install it on my ubuntu later
14:47 meneldor thanks anyway moritz_
14:47 PerlJam meneldor++ tenacity is an excellent trait.
14:48 * PerlJam has discovered that Hershey's dark chocolate goes quite well with Dr Pepper
14:49 rgrau joined #perl6
14:52 anonperler joined #perl6
14:52 jnthn multi trait_mod:<tenacity>($amount) { ... }
14:54 eiro cd
14:54 eiro sorry
14:55 anonperler Hi. Just wanted to say thanks for making Rakudo self contained and easy to set up. Just built it using the instructions on day 1 of the advent calendar, and even after `make install` the whole thing is still nicely contained in its own `rakudo` directory.
14:55 anonperler Makes upgrading later on very easy (that is, `rm -fr rakudo` and then just download and build again)3.
14:55 pmichaud anonperler: you're welcome :-)
14:55 PerlJam anonperler: glad you like it.
14:55 pmichaud anonperler: glad to hear it worked out for you
14:55 moritz_ anonperler: thanks for telling us! Usually people only come here when they have problems with the build :-)
14:56 BinGOs shame rakudo ate all my memory when I tried to build it
14:56 anonperler You're welcome. Great stuff!
14:56 PerlJam BinGOs: on feather?
14:56 BinGOs On my NetBSD 3.1 box.
14:57 anonperler left #perl6
14:57 BinGOs rather parrot tried to take all my system memory
14:57 drbean joined #perl6
14:58 BinGOs Hostname: canker.bingosnet.co.uk - OS: NetBSD 3.1/i386 - CPU: 2 x Intel Pentium III (686-class), 897.32 MHz, id 0x68a - Processes: 53 - Uptime: 376d 2h 39m - Load Average: 0.24 - Memory Usage: 66.60MB/255.00MB (26.12%) - Disk Usage: 22.88GB/109.56GB (20.89%)
14:58 pmichaud 256MB ?
14:58 BinGOs ( Only one processor incidently ).
14:58 BinGOs Yes, 256MB RAM
14:59 pmichaud yeah, that's a little on the smallish side for building Rakudo at the moment.
14:59 BinGOs oh meh.
14:59 BinGOs I build blead on here all the time. but meh.
14:59 PerlJam Has anyone ever figured out what the memory requirements are t obuild rakudo?
15:00 pmichaud PerlJam: not yet
15:00 BinGOs Definitely more than 256MB then >:)
15:00 pmichaud I think 512MB is generally enough
15:00 BinGOs Well ....
15:00 BinGOs I tried on my Ubuntu box as well ...
15:00 PerlJam pmichaud: maybe.  maybe not.  I'm not so sure.
15:00 BinGOs seemed to kill that as well ... but I am running vmware server on there as well.
15:00 pmichaud BinGOs: what step eats up all of the memory?
15:01 BinGOs after parrot is built, running 'make', something to do with a pmc?
15:02 pmichaud ...with a pmc?  that would be odd, normally those are pretty lightweight.
15:02 pmichaud I would've expected it to eat up all of the memory when compling the setting.
15:02 BinGOs actually, during the perl6.pir stage I think
15:02 pmichaud that also is supposed to be light-ish
15:03 BinGOs I am not running it again to find out exactly I'm afraid.
15:03 pmichaud no problem, I can set up a vm to try it out :)
15:04 BinGOs I do have a lot of stuff going on on this box, database server, various bots, hourly rsyncs of CPAN, etc.
15:05 * BinGOs goes back to lurking.
15:06 frettled BinGOs: You have my permission to upgrade to a post-2000 computer.  ;)
15:07 BinGOs Oh hilarious.
15:08 BinGOs This little box was a). free b). quiet enough that I can have it on all the time without annoying the family.
15:09 BinGOs the other little box has only 128MB of RAM but handles all my email server needs.
15:09 PerlJam quiet boxes should never be underestimated.
15:10 PerlJam I used to have a little linux server with a fan that occasionally rattled.  It kept waking us up at night.
15:12 Chillance joined #perl6
15:12 Tene joined #perl6
15:16 ash___ joined #perl6
15:23 rfordinal joined #perl6
15:24 ash___ does anyone else get an error when they run rakudo ng branch with --trace=1  ?
15:24 masak new, fresh book release: http://rakudo.org/node/62 # moritz_++
15:25 moritz_ masak++ for doing actual release
15:25 ash___ masak++ moritz_++ *adds to my to read list*
15:26 mathw everyone++
15:27 masak nobody--
15:27 ash___ hmmm rakudo ng with --trace=3 is very random... it works one time, then bus error, then seg fault, then bus error, etc. thats odd
15:27 masak pmichaud: I changed the ticket to succeed/proceed, but I forgot to cc p6c.
15:28 pmichaud masak: ah.
15:28 masak s/changed/already changed/
15:28 pmichaud yeah, I just went from the mailing list.
15:28 pmichaud anyway, masak++
15:29 JimmyZ ng: (1..999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:29 p6eval ng b9eec4: Method 'grep' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
15:29 JimmyZ rakudo:(1..999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:29 rfordinal left #perl6
15:30 PerlJam ng still doesn't do ranges, does it?
15:30 JimmyZ so slow!
15:30 colomon ash___: rakudo ng is like that without trace at the moment, too.  I've got S32-lists/end.t 1/3 working here -- except that's 100% working 1/3 of the time, and crashing during the second test the other 2/3rds of the time.
15:30 colomon PerlJam: no real ranges.
15:31 frettled BinGOs: There's nothing wrong with free hardware.  If you'd been living in Norway, I'd have a _bunch_ of old hardware (P4 and newer) that you could get for free, even some dual Xeon thingies.
15:31 colomon PerlJam: series operator works for N1 ... N2
15:31 masak JimmyZ: I believe you need a space after 'rakudo:'
15:32 mj41 joined #perl6
15:32 JimmyZ rakudo:(1..999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say # why is it so slow?
15:32 JimmyZ real0m7.866s
15:33 rfordinal3643 joined #perl6
15:33 colomon ng: (1...999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:33 p6eval ng b9eec4:  ( no output )
15:33 JimmyZ rakudo: (1..999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say # why is it so slow?
15:33 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f:  ( no output )
15:33 colomon ng: (1...9).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:33 p6eval ng b9eec4: Method 'grep' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
15:33 FalseVinylShrub joined #perl6
15:34 colomon yeah, that's what I thought....
15:34 diakopter rakudo: (1..9).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:34 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 369␤
15:34 diakopter rakudo: (1..29).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:34 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 369121518212427␤
15:34 diakopter rakudo: (1..59).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:34 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 36912151821242730333639424548515457␤
15:34 diakopter rakudo: (1..99).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:35 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 36912151821242730333639424548515​4576063666972757881848790939699␤
15:35 JimmyZ rakudo: ([+] (1..999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0})).say
15:35 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f:  ( no output )
15:35 chromatic joined #perl6
15:35 diakopter timed out
15:35 diakopter rakudo: (1..199).grep({$_ % 3 == 0}).say
15:35 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 36912151821242730333639424548515457606366​69727578818487909396991021051081111141171​20123126129132135138141144147150153156159​162165168171174177180183186189192195198␤
15:35 diakopter rakudo: ([+] (1..299).grep({$_ % 3 == 0})).say
15:36 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 14850␤
15:36 diakopter (didn't time out)
15:36 diakopter rakudo: ([+] (1..499).grep({$_ % 3 == 0})).say
15:36 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 41583␤
15:36 diakopter (didn't time out)
15:36 masak who wants to do the January release of the book?
15:36 diakopter rakudo: ([+] (1..699).grep({$_ % 3 == 0})).say
15:36 p6eval rakudo 7f1c3f: 81783␤
15:36 JimmyZ time ./perl6 -e '([+] (1..999).grep({$_ % 3 == 0})).say'
15:37 JimmyZ real0m29.449s
15:37 JimmyZ user0m19.497s
15:37 JimmyZ sys0m0.300s
15:38 pmichaud JimmyZ: we know that there are some very slow parts of Parrot and Rakudo, especially when creating large numbers of objects
15:38 pmichaud JimmyZ: these are being worked on
15:38 pmichaud JimmyZ: if you want a more detailed answer as to why this particular case is so slow, I don't know the answer right now.
15:39 pmichaud I suspect it has something to do with GC, though.
15:39 JimmyZ pmichaud: I see.
15:40 Psyche^ joined #perl6
15:41 rfordinal3643 left #perl6
15:41 diakopter masak: consider your question bumped :)
15:42 pmichaud I'll do the jan book release, if nobody else takes it :)
15:42 masak diakopter: which question?
15:42 ash___ isn't there a GC updating in parrot around the corner?
15:42 diakopter masak: lol
15:42 masak ah, the release question. :)
15:42 moritz_ yes, but we don't know how cles the corner is :-)
15:42 pmichaud ash___: I don't know about "around the corner".
15:43 pmichaud Parrot recognizes that gc is currently a huge problem.  But I'm not sure who will step up to work on it.
15:43 chromatic Why, whiteknight and myself, of course.
15:43 pmichaud +1 to that!
15:43 moritz_ chromatic++ and whiteknight++ for that
15:44 diakopter <<64 to that!
15:45 diakopter chromatic: are you considering diving right into generational?
15:45 ash___ pmichaud: well, i have seen people talking about it in the mailing list is what i mean, its a known issue, see ( http://trac.parrot.org/parro​t/wiki/DevelopmentPriorities ) since it specifies parrot 2.0, and i think thats the next scheduled release, but then again i could be mistaken on the a number of area's so take that with a grain of salt
15:46 pmurias do any perl6 benchmarks exist?
15:47 diakopter dunno, but it would be nice if p6eval could report elapsed millis if you, say, appended a _b to the run target name
15:47 chromatic I doubt we'll go straight to generational.  We have an idea which could double the speed of the current system; it's a sweep-free, garbage-friendly system.
15:48 pmichaud ash___: that page was a working/planning document
15:48 chromatic The idea is to find the most minimal change.
15:49 * diakopter quips flippantly: minimal changes lead to, well, local maxima
15:49 ash___ pmichaud: see, i told you i am not a reliable source of whats going on in parrot (or perl)
15:49 pmichaud ash___: anyway, since the Parrot 2.0 release is 33 days away, I'm not sure there will be a new gc by 2.0 :)
15:50 pmurias diakopter: the time for snippets in the evalbot would be dominated by compile/startup time
15:50 ash___ pmichaud: yeah, there is that whole time constraint on things, you never have enough it seems, in my experience anyway
15:50 pmichaud ash___: yeah, I was going to do a study on that topic, but I ran out of time.
15:51 chromatic If we can improve freeze/thaw and constant PBCs, startup time may improve measurably for 2.0.
15:51 pmichaud chromatic: I tried switching exception handlers to constant PBCs in nqp-rx, and ran into serious FAIL
15:51 chromatic There's a good possibility that a current Parrot branch can provide a 20% runtime improvement.
15:51 diakopter pmurias: ok.. but baselines for the startup times could be subtracted away
15:51 chromatic I'd like to see the bug report there (I don't remember if you filed one).
15:52 chromatic We may have to evaluate the static-scope exception handling idea sooner.
15:52 pmichaud The :immediate subs remained subs -- they didn't become ExceptionHandler arguments
15:52 diakopter pmurias: (for comparing on the same impl)
15:52 pmichaud s/arguments/objects
15:52 chromatic Okay, I remember that ticket.  I'll work on that test.
15:52 pmichaud I couldn't reproduce it down to a small test case, though.
15:52 pmichaud the small test cases I came up with all worked fine.
15:53 pmichaud I'm going to go ahead an implement the caching strategy in past for exception handlers, that will give us a sizable win to begin with.  when constants in pbcs become available, it'll be a trivial change from there.
15:53 jferrero joined #perl6
15:53 pmichaud I'm about to file some messages noting that parrot-nqp doesn't run in the context_unify3 branch, nor can I build rakudo-ng nor nqp-rx
15:54 diakopter pmurias: but including the startup/compile time is good for comparing across impl
15:54 moritz_ pmichaud: nor can I even install context_unify3
15:54 pmichaud moritz_: hmm, that part seems to work for me.  What did you use as the prefix argument ?
15:54 pmichaud I just discovered this morning that --prefix to Parrot's configure.pl requires a full path name
15:55 moritz_ pmichaud: --prefix=/home/moritz/rakudo/parrot_install/
15:55 pmichaud hmmm
15:55 pmichaud I dunno then.  'make install' worked for me once I got the arguments right.
15:55 pmichaud (fsvo "right")
15:55 moritz_ pmichaud: I think it's actually a build problem
15:56 pmichaud it could be.
15:56 moritz_ pmichaud: that was revealed during 'make install'
15:56 moritz_ pmichaud: I ususally run parallel builds, which makes it a bit harder to see if the build failed
15:57 chromatic Coke had trouble with context_unify3.  I think it's a modest change to his PMCs.
15:57 pmichaud well, since nqp-rx doesn't have custom pmcs, it must be something else happening there.
15:58 chromatic Interesting.  We'll take a look.
15:58 jnthn fwiw, once we do get to the point of being able to try building Rakudo on top of that branch, I expect there will be difficulties.
15:58 jnthn Well
15:58 pmichaud and I'm a bit concerned about how it will impact rakudo, because rakudo has a custom dispatcher
15:58 jnthn there may be.
15:58 pmichaud so it may be a bit more involved than partcl :)
15:58 jnthn I fear we rely on contexts and call info being separate.
15:59 jnthn I brought this up when it was being discussed, and said I had no objects *provided* somebody from the Parrot team could work out how to patch Rakudo up to work with the changes.
15:59 pmichaud jnthn: rely on the design having them separate, or just the implementation?
15:59 jnthn pmichaud: I know that we, for example, rely on being able to do multiple invocations with the same callsig.
16:00 jnthn I'm not sure how that will work out if contexts and callsigs are merged.
16:01 jnthn It may or may not be a problem - I'm not familiar with what the branch has done.
16:01 pmichaud me neither.
16:01 jnthn Thus why I'd rather somebody who is write the patch.
16:02 chromatic Multiple invocations with the same call sig, how does that look?
16:04 jnthn chromatic: perl6multisub.pmc does it, iirc
16:04 jnthn chromatic: checking...
16:04 jnthn (will get you a line #)
16:05 jnthn chromatic: in master, starting line 448
16:05 jnthn In ng I think this code has changed relatively little.
16:06 ash___ ng: role A { }; say A.^methods; # is this a known issue? I can try to look into it more (although that seems like parrot stuff that i am not very familiar with)
16:06 p6eval ng b9eec4: No such attribute 'parrotclass'␤current instr.: 'perl6;RoleHOW;methods' pc 4835 (src/metamodel/RoleHOW.pir:47)␤
16:06 jnthn chromatic: It's largely similar.
16:07 jnthn ash___: I suspect just a tad incomplete.
16:07 chromatic Suppose you had a way both to clear a Context/Sig of its return values (returning them or gathering the returns) and a way to reuse a Context/Sig for a subsequent call.
16:07 chromatic Would that suffice?
16:08 jnthn chromatic: I *think* that might be enough.
16:09 jnthn chromatic: See the comment starting XXX for what I had in mind for a future change.
16:09 jnthn But I don't think that'll be a problem either.
16:09 ash___ jnthn: classes work, so i figured it was something like
16:10 jnthn ash___: Yeah, Parrot roles and Rakudo roles are having an ongoing divorce...
16:10 nihiliad joined #perl6
16:11 jnthn ash___: The only thing that the Parrot role PMC is really used for now is (1) storing the methods and (b) making punning work.
16:14 diakopter chromatic: would that break non-tailcall recursive invocations?
16:15 chromatic I'm not sure.
16:15 chromatic We might have to enable cloning.
16:15 chromatic (if it doesn't already work)
16:16 chromatic back in a while
16:17 diakopter (which would have the same (but less efficient) effect as keeping them (callsig/context) non-merged)
16:23 gbacon joined #perl6
16:23 justatheory joined #perl6
16:34 colomon_ joined #perl6
16:36 ash___ nobreak is now proceed?
16:36 PerlJam aye
16:36 PerlJam break is now succeed.
16:36 masak \o/
16:36 PerlJam and I like it!
16:37 jnthn nobreak I didn't like. I like succeed much more :-)
16:37 masak who doesn't? you can't dislike 'succeed'! ;)
16:37 PerlJam eliminates the break/continue confusion, make sense, and uses words of the same length with same suffix (for mnemonic help)
16:37 ash___ yeah, nobreak was confusing
16:38 PerlJam and having when block succeed is far more appealing than having them break  ;)
16:39 * masak is conspiring with mst again
16:39 jferrero joined #perl6
16:39 mdxi (they have the same *root*, not the same *suffix* :) )
16:40 PerlJam whatever, I'm not a linguist, nor do I play one on IRC :)
16:41 ash___ for try's is there a finally mechanism?
16:42 masak there's the LEAVE phaser.
16:42 jnthn LEAVE iirc
16:42 jnthn But you can use it in any block.
16:42 jnthn Just as with CATCH.
16:42 [particle] why isn't break now secede?
16:42 masak concede, recede...
16:42 [particle] or maybe that should be leave....
16:43 ash___ isn't there already a leave?
16:43 wlod joined #perl6
16:43 [particle] aye. but maybe it should be called secede :)
16:50 ash___ i think succeed and proceed make sense, given $letter { when "A" {  say 'its an "A"'; proceed } when "Ã" { say "its also unicode"; proceed } };
16:50 ash___ proceed makes sense
16:51 moritz_ but "A" ne "Ã" :-)
16:51 ash___ well i never said it made sense
16:53 moritz_ 17:50 < ash___> i think succeed and proceed make sense
16:53 moritz_ *SCNR*
16:55 Tene joined #perl6
16:56 mdxi do_the_next_chunk_too_i_reckon is kinda wordy, but hey, maybe dangerous things should be huffman coded that way :)
16:56 moritz_ maybe :-)
17:04 pmurias who killed svnbot?
17:05 masak some ardent committer, perhaps?
17:06 * moritz_ can't remember which host it is supposed to run on
17:06 moritz_ feather3?
17:06 moritz_ does anyone remember its host mask?
17:07 diakopter heh
17:08 diakopter pugs_svn you mean?
17:08 pmurias propably
17:09 diakopter yes, feather3
17:09 diakopter pugs_svn [n=SVNBot@feather3.perl6.nl] has joined #perl6
17:11 pugs_svn joined #perl6
17:12 pugs_svn joined #perl6
17:15 diakopter pugs_svn: owe high
17:16 pmichaud k
17:16 pmichaud ww
17:16 * moritz_ mmanges too many bots on too many hosts with too low truck number
17:17 PerlJam moritz_: you just need a family of bots to manage themselves
17:17 pmichaud sounds like it could be a new sitcom
17:17 pmichaud "The Bots!"
17:18 moritz_ PerlJam: no, I need more co-admins
17:19 masak pmichaud: "Join us next week for another episode of botty humour!"
17:19 SmokeMachine joined #perl6
17:20 TimToady you guys have bots in the belfrey
17:20 * moritz_ wonders of botty humour involves autopunning
17:20 diakopter our dingbots are dingy
17:20 pmichaud <mommybot>  I don't know what to do.... lambdabot is always speaking out of turn!
17:21 pmichaud <daddybot>  Yes, but at least lambdabot isn't as annoying as purl!
17:21 diakopter ..and purl has Tourette's
17:21 Juerd moritz_: If the truck number is low, at least document what's there and how to restart them
17:21 masak <phenny>  Why does no-one ever notice what I'm doing? Because I'm quiet, that's why!
17:22 pmichaud <hugme>  Anyone need a hug?
17:22 masak *lol*
17:22 moritz_ hugme: hug phenny
17:22 * hugme hugs phenny
17:22 masak :D
17:22 TimToady phenny: hug hugme
17:23 moritz_ phenny: tell hugme hug me
17:23 phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when hugme is around.
17:23 moritz_ hugme: hug phenny
17:23 * hugme hugs phenny
17:23 phenny hugme: 17:23Z <moritz_> tell hugme hug me
17:23 masak almost...
17:23 moritz_ too bad it didn't recurse :-)
17:23 masak that can be arranged...
17:24 PerlJam TimToady++ for succeed/proceed.  that was an excellent change.
17:24 diakopter phenny: tell phenny tell phenny tell phenny
17:24 phenny Hey, I'm not as stupid as Monty you know!
17:24 PerlJam TimToady: not so sure about "so"  though  :)
17:24 masak PerlJam: ssh! it's better than 'true'!
17:24 PerlJam It's *shorter* than 'true'
17:25 TimToady I agree that it's so so...
17:25 diakopter but not as short as !!
17:25 PerlJam I'm not quite sure what criteria make it better
17:25 TimToady the problem was the existence of true, not the absence of so
17:25 PerlJam diakopter: eh?  'so' is shorter than '!!'
17:25 pmichaud I was thinking perhaps we need "iznot" and "izso"
17:25 diakopter std: so 3; !!3
17:25 p6eval std 29373: ok 00:01 107m␤
17:25 pmichaud "iznot!"  "izso!"
17:26 diakopter PerlJam: shorter to type, ok, but longer on the screen
17:26 jnthn std: so WHAT
17:26 p6eval std 29373: ok 00:01 105m␤
17:26 PerlJam diakopter: okay, I'll grant you that.
17:27 diakopter what you want is an abbrev for 'whether'
17:27 PerlJam diakopter: but the op still needs to be wordy to be a 'not' parallel
17:27 pmichaud "really"
17:27 pmichaud if really 3 + 4 ....
17:28 PerlJam huffman defenestration.
17:28 pmichaud :)
17:28 jnthn if its 3 + 4 ...
17:28 pmichaud there's always "NOWAI" and "WAI"
17:28 jnthn uh, it's :-)
17:28 jnthn Which we can have. ;-)
17:29 masak 'truely', as in 'Im truely sorry for their lots'...
17:29 pmichaud "truly" isn't too bad :)
17:29 pmichaud if truly $a == 5 { ... }
17:29 diakopter "verily"
17:30 masak if truly $sorry { for $their.lots { ... } }
17:30 pmichaud @their, probably
17:30 masak oh, dang. :)
17:30 masak if truly $sorry { for @their.lots { ... } }
17:31 PerlJam I would think @lots would make more sense.
17:31 diakopter "iff" kinda has the "whether" connotation
17:31 pmichaud my @result = if truly .sorry for @their>>.lots;
17:31 PerlJam diakopter: I like that.
17:31 PerlJam diakopter: but it's not useful elsewhere.
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: dd78a40 | jnthn++ | src/builtins/ (2 files):
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: Code does Callable, List does Positional.
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d​d78a409115a1b6cb0b4563bc50866ec6897bd94
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: 041178b | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: Couple of role related fixes.
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/0​41178b7d05da416135deca98b2b528872ce0dd6
17:31 diakopter (and "iff" also is the direct complement to "not")
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: 21558a9 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Compiler/Signature.pm:
17:31 pmichaud "iff" sounds two-way-ish-for-me
17:31 dalek rakudo/ng: Re-enable sigil type checks in parameter lists.
17:32 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2​1558a98b1c6a39231be0a72a28c709f3d7c6aa8
17:32 diakopter well
17:32 diakopter when used in a unary sense... like I said, 'kinda'
17:32 TimToady iff is spelled ?& in Perl 6
17:32 jnthn So...does ng do hashes yet...
17:32 arnsholt iff is eq for logicians =)
17:33 pmichaud my mind keeps wondering if there's a latin root or word here
17:33 PerlJam forget latin ... what about other languages?  :)
17:33 zaslon lolmasakhazblogged! masak++ 'The wish, the tuning fork, and the one true heir': http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40037?from=rss
17:33 diakopter not vs. ver
17:34 diakopter ver, for verily, verify
17:34 pmichaud alas, "ver" tends to think "version"
17:34 arnsholt I can't quite make out from the scrollback, but what are you looking for a word for?
17:34 PerlJam or "fi"  for "fidelis"  ;>
17:34 pmichaud arnsholt: replacement for "true"/"so"
17:34 pmichaud i.e., the logical opposite of "not"
17:35 diakopter arnsholt: trying to find a better word for the combination of "bikeshed" and "yakshave" and "elephant.ignore"
17:35 pugs_svn r29374 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] add --profile option to print out the time execution and
17:35 pugs_svn r29374 | loading the setting took
17:35 arnsholt Well, truth in latin is veritas
17:35 PerlJam yeah, I was going more for "spirit" than "letter"
17:35 pmichaud and truth in government is Nil.  Or Mu.
17:36 arnsholt PerlJam: Well, my vocabulary digs out letter before spirit
17:36 pmichaud if vino ....
17:36 arnsholt But the logical opposite of not just nothing, no?
17:37 pmichaud arnsholt: we'd like a low-precedence form of  prefix:<?>
17:37 pmichaud "not" is the low-precedence form of prefix:<!>
17:37 jnthn mmm...vino :-)
17:38 arnsholt A right, now I see
17:39 Juerd pmichaud: ita
17:39 arnsholt Some kind of copula might be appropriate
17:39 Juerd pmichaud: (latin)
17:39 arnsholt "is" is taken I believe, but since someone mentioned Latin, "est" is short and means the same
17:39 PerlJam Hmmm "ta"
17:40 Juerd arnsholt: "est" declares equivalence, not being so.
17:40 arnsholt In a declarative sentence, yes
17:40 arnsholt But boolean context is essentially question
17:40 arnsholt "Is this expression true?"
17:40 Juerd false est false.
17:40 pmichaud arnsholt: the point is to be able to get a boolean value when not in a boolean context
17:41 Juerd I'd see "est" as something inherently binary. For me, it doesn't work as some prefix thing (lowprec unary)
17:41 Juerd ita $foo eq $bar works
17:41 arnsholt True. My analogy is essentially from Prolog
17:41 Juerd But I don't think it'll ring many bells.
17:41 arnsholt Yeah, there's that
17:41 pmichaud "ton"
17:42 pmichaud (not backwards :-)
17:42 Juerd One positive thing about ita is that it is as long as not.
17:42 Juerd pmichaud: Hmmmmm
17:42 masak 'indeed'
17:42 pmichaud "notnot"
17:42 arnsholt ton might be the best suggestion yet
17:42 PerlJam most of these "cute" ones will require far more explanation than should be warranted IMHO
17:42 PerlJam ergo "so" is still the winner
17:42 Juerd masak: indeed looks weird as a contrast to negation. if (not ...) { ... } ... if (indeed ...) { ... }
17:42 pmichaud PerlJam: if you say so
17:42 PerlJam IMHO again
17:43 arnsholt Juerd: You wouldn't need it in a conditional though
17:43 Juerd PerlJam: Agreed
17:43 masak Juerd: also, you don't need parens. :)
17:43 arnsholt The if forces boolean context
17:43 Juerd arnsholt: Would for stress, as documentation
17:43 arnsholt True
17:43 Juerd Dutch has a word for this and it's used all the time.
17:43 arnsholt What is it?
17:43 Juerd It's hard to explain the value of having such a word :)
17:43 Juerd "wel"
17:43 masak 'akshually'
17:44 Juerd It's the opposite of "niet" (not)
17:44 PerlJam google translate doesn't think that :)
17:44 Juerd http://forum.wordreference.​com/showthread.php?t=148276
17:45 Juerd "It is not blue" "Wel!" (Often as "welles!" or "jawel!")
17:45 Juerd In English you wuold say "Yes it is"
17:45 Juerd Or "But it is"
17:45 pmichaud or "Is so!"
17:45 Juerd Yes.
17:45 PerlJam I've seen "jawel" before.
17:45 pmichaud or "Is too!"
17:46 Juerd But it's harder to explain how "wel" is used in the context of there not being context :)
17:46 Juerd "I've decided. I will *wel* go to that party."
17:46 Juerd "I will so go" would imply enthusiasm, I think.
17:47 Tene 07:22 <@pmichaud> "<ws> is a builtin regex, like <alpha>, <digit>, and friends, that matches whitespace."    <-- this  phrasing always bugs me a little
17:47 PerlJam "wel" seems to capture the emphasis nicely, but not "truthiness"   (but maybe I'm bent)
17:47 Tene pmichaud: any recommendations on something better to day there?
17:47 Juerd To express the same thing in English I think you'd say "I am going to that party", with "am" stressed.
17:47 pmichaud I'd leave the <ws> out of the example entirely
17:47 Juerd PerlJam: "not" doesn't capture falsiness.
17:47 pmichaud just use \s*
17:48 PerlJam Juerd: I guess you're right about that too
17:49 Juerd I'd almost suggest "bool" but it'd look too much like typecasting. (Which it is...)
17:49 arnsholt Or truth
17:49 cdarroch joined #perl6
17:50 arnsholt But truth is long
17:50 pmichaud afk (kid pickup)
17:50 Juerd "truth" is ugly
17:50 Juerd my $foo = truth ...;
17:50 Juerd if not ... { ... } ...; if truth ... { ... }
17:50 PerlJam Juerd: and that's why american prefer beauty to truth  ;)
17:51 Juerd truth wants the opposite "lie".
17:51 Juerd if lie ... { ... } ...; if truth ... { ... }
17:51 Juerd That looks better :)
17:51 arnsholt Well, "lie" is the same length as "not" =)
17:51 Juerd Yes, but we already had a not.
17:52 Juerd I think we really shouldn't rename that one :)
17:52 arnsholt Indeed
17:52 arnsholt But I've got to pop out for a bit as well
17:52 PerlJam maybe we should
17:52 PerlJam if true ... { ... }   and  if untrue ... { ... }
17:52 PerlJam :)
17:52 PerlJam is has the right relative huffmanization  :)
17:53 TimToady you forget why we killed true in the first place
17:53 PerlJam No, I'm just twiddling knobs I haven't twiddled before in hopes that something useful will come out.
17:54 masak if concede ... { ... }; if deny  ... { ... }
17:54 * Juerd is happy with "so"
17:54 Juerd It's as short as !! :)
17:55 Juerd If you'd translate "wel" via Esperanto, you'd end up with "yes"
17:56 Juerd "Mi ja faros tion" - "I will *yes* do that"
17:56 Juerd Er, s/ja/jes/
17:56 frettled My goodness, Perl 6 changed again while I blinked!  ;)
17:56 Juerd Which is different from "Jes, mi faros tion" - "Yes, I will do that"
17:56 frettled What about "so true" and "make it so"?
17:57 Juerd frettled: It's just renaming fortunately :)
17:57 Juerd No big operator shifting
17:57 frettled Juerd: Yeah, but each change kills a baby COBOL programmer!  :D
17:57 Juerd thus $foo == $bar
17:59 masak just found this: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663566
17:59 masak to what extent can today's Perl 6 be said to be statically parseable.
18:00 masak I don't recognize any of the problems merlyn brings up.
18:01 TimToady masak: it's statically parseable to the extent that STD does it.  :)
18:01 TimToady since STD can't run BEGIN blocks
18:01 masak I should have expected that answer. :)
18:01 masak but what does not being able to run BEGIN blocks mean, in terms of not being able to statically parse Perl 6?
18:01 TimToady but it does fail to parse 6 .t files currently, and some of those depend on dynamic code
18:02 masak ok.
18:02 masak is there some sense in which static parsing of Perl 6 is 'better' than static parsing of Perl 5?
18:02 colomon joined #perl6
18:02 masak I mean, apart from the greatly cleaned-up grammar.
18:04 nihiliad joined #perl6
18:04 Tene masak: also, you need to run BEGIN to get macros.
18:05 masak hm, yes.
18:05 TimToady some of the failures are also failure to recognize 'use v5;' which is arguably not statically parseable :)
18:05 TimToady well, the 'use v5;' is statically parseable, but what comes after...
18:06 moritz_ is just as statically parseable as Perl 6
18:06 Tene also some traits
18:06 Tene I made the changes pmichaud recommended.  Did anybody else have changes that I didn't notice in the log?
18:07 TimToady std: so quietly use v5;
18:07 p6eval std 29374: ok 00:01 107m␤
18:08 PerlJam Tene: I thought the section where you introduce the actions could use some more explanatory prose, but since it wasn't a strong feeling, I didn't mention it earlier.
18:08 colomon Tene: I suggested a bit more explanation on .ast when it is introduced.
18:08 PerlJam Tene: I only mention it now in case you want to "polish" something, that would be my vote.
18:08 colomon (based totally on my own initial confusion reading that section.  :)
18:09 Tene hmm.  My feeling there was that it was better to get into the example ASAP, and then discuss it more in review.
18:09 Tene I'll definitely re-work that section, though.
18:09 Tene thanks.
18:10 frettled masak++ - excellent entry.
18:10 masak thanks. mst++ too.
18:11 Tene What did masak write where?
18:11 masak http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40037
18:12 Tene Yes, agreed.
18:13 * Tene afk work
18:13 masak Tene: did you consider replacing the instances of $_<something><something> with .<something><something>?
18:13 masak it's slightly easier on the eye.
18:14 PerlJam masak: I am reminded of how love isn't a zero-sum game.  The more you give, the more you create.  We lovers of Perl are spreading the love  :)
18:14 Tene I did.  I expected explicit $_ to be a bit easier to understand.  There's already a lof of new things in that post, so I tried to keep it down in a couple of ways.
18:15 PerlJam masak: (the "rule the kingdom with twice as many resources" is what triggered that thought)
18:15 masak PerlJam: yes, 'zero-sum game' was a term that came up in my discussion with mst today.
18:15 Tene PerlJam: I very much agree, and I have some very strong opinions on exactly that topic.
18:15 masak PerlJam: and that phrase was my re-wording of same. :)
18:15 masak Tene: fair enough. great post!
18:16 Tene all the thanks should go to procrastination; I couldn't have done it without her.
18:16 PerlJam Tene++
18:16 PerlJam (and masak++ and mst++ for continuing the conversation between the two halves of the Perl family)
18:17 masak heh. it's not like I have any choice. :P
18:17 * Tene successfully surpressed the urge to discuss political topics; really afk driving to work now.
18:19 * moritz_ just updated the Whatever post and scheduled it for tomorrow
18:22 colomon \o/
18:25 lisppaste3 colomon pasted "Benchmarking Mandelbrot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92324
18:26 mathw masak++ # blog post, peacemaking, hugging
18:26 pmichaud something bugs me about "save for a few CPAN modules in the Perl6:: namespace, nothing usable had trickled back into the Perl community from the Perl 6 crowd."
18:26 pmichaud I don't think that's quite true, depending on the timeframes.
18:27 supernovus joined #perl6
18:27 masak pmichaud: hm, that's true.
18:27 pmichaud The biggest example being, of course, Moose.
18:27 mberends joined #perl6
18:27 masak when I wrote that, I was thinking circa 2004.
18:27 pmichaud but quite a few other ideas trickled back into Perl 5 from Perl 6.
18:28 masak mst wouldn't give an exact date for the birth of Modernlightennaissance Perl.
18:29 pmichaud circa 2004 is fine, but it should probably be explicit.  did any of Perl Rennaissance, Modern Perl, or Enlightened Perl really begin in 2004, though?
18:29 masak no.
18:29 masak but the year is significant in that that was when I got interested in Perl 6, and mst had already lost hope.
18:30 * masak adds 'circa 2004' to the post
18:30 pmurias mberends: mildew doesn't need an old version of itself to compile it's setting
18:30 crythias joined #perl6
18:31 mberends pmurias: are you leaving the m0ld behind completely?
18:31 supernovus has anyone has anyone reported that the 2009-12 release of the Perl 6 book is missing the new chapters that the blog post talks about? The Makefile hasn't been updated to include them.
18:31 pmichaud speaking from a strictly personal perspective, the fork wasn't nearly as split or bifurcated as this post seems to make it.  But perhaps I'm a special case.
18:32 masak supernovus: oh dear.
18:32 masak supernovus: thanks for the heads-up.
18:32 pmichaud I agree that to the vast majority of Perl 5 folks, Perl 6 was at best a dream, it certainly didn't have a significant positive impact on their reality
18:32 masak moritz_: hm, that didn't occur to me at all :/
18:32 PerlJam pmichaud: you're speaking in past tense.
18:32 moritz_ masak: I didn't include it because I wanted to discuss some options first
18:32 colomon pmichaud: My impression is that the "fork" has mostly occurred as Rakudo actually gets close to producing something?
18:33 moritz_ masak: but so far my attempts to discuss it haven't had any resonance
18:33 pmurias mberends: mildew is still using m0ld
18:33 moritz_ masak: and then I forgot
18:33 masak oh, ok.
18:33 pmurias mberends: having trouble with getting cabal?
18:33 masak let's leave it as it is, then.
18:33 masak and include it in the next month's release.
18:33 pmichaud PerlJam: yes, I am speaking in past tense, because the paragraph is "circa 2004"
18:34 colomon That is to say, for a long time there Perl 6 was sort of Perl 5's wacky uncle with the crazy ideas, and Perl 5 took the better ideas and ignored everything else.
18:34 PerlJam okay.
18:34 masak pmichaud: the conflict grows with the strength of the Perl 6 community.
18:34 pmichaud masak: that's a reasonable point
18:34 colomon But with Perl 6 starting to look like it might actually produce results, suddenly it's a threat rather than a curiosity.
18:34 colomon threat to the status quo, that is.
18:34 pmichaud I'm just not sure I want to present history as being as bifurcated as this sounds.  it didn't seem that way to me.
18:34 PerlJam colomon: Hmm.
18:35 pmichaud but again, I'm a minority case.
18:35 pmichaud because I'm well on the inside looking out
18:35 masak pmichaud: I didn't see it that way until I started spending time with mst.
18:35 masak there's a whole other world out there! :P
18:36 masak they call themselves Perl 5 people, and their hats look funny.
18:36 pmichaud well, if the "fork" views makes all of this more palatable for the p5 side of things, I'm willing to go along wit hthat
18:36 pmichaud *view
18:36 masak <mst> absolutely nothing in there to complain about
18:37 masak <mst> I think we're getting better at this :)
18:37 pmichaud I'd just want to avoid any sense of trying to designate one heir as the "one true heir"
18:37 masak well, that's the point, isn't it?
18:37 Su-Shee and it would be really nice if folks like me who actually live and work in _both_ perls not get the feeling to be forced to one side or the other by getting constant teasing from both sides.
18:37 masak it's the "one true heir" thinking that creates friction.
18:37 PerlJam masak: were you on #perl earlier when I mentioned how Perl 6 treats the "fat comma"?
18:38 masak PerlJam: #perl on freenode?
18:38 PerlJam aye
18:38 masak I was, but I must have missed it.
18:38 * masak backlogs
18:38 Su-Shee (and this gossiping here isn't really much better than the same over there...)
18:39 masak Su-Shee: sure it is! we have more hugs! :)
18:40 Su-Shee yeah. and all this butterflies and flowers and hugging really doesn't hide certain assumptions what perl 5 folks might think not very well. ;)
18:40 PerlJam masak: how would you interpret LoeNerd's reaction?  (if you're really backlogging)
18:41 masak even the bots hug each other today.
18:41 supernovus I use Perl 5 and Perl 6 both (although currently in seperate projects), and once Blizkost supports XS modules, I'll probably start using them together. :-)
18:41 PZt joined #perl6
18:41 IMeMyself joined #perl6
18:41 masak PerlJam: I see you in various places in the backlog, but didn't find anything on fat commas....
18:43 kst joined #perl6
18:44 patspam douglas crockford made an interesting comment recently about how they're deliberately not giving the next planned version of javascript a version number (yet at least)
18:45 patspam and why he doesn't like html5 being called "5" yet because it hasn't been recognised by any standards bodies yet
18:45 moritz_ it's a bit too late for that in Perl 6 :-)
18:45 masak Haskell Prime suffered, according to some #haskell folks I've talked to, from the fact that it wasn't a significant improvement on 98. mainly because the latter is really good.
18:46 patspam yeah, very different political sphere, but interesting to compare
18:46 masak PerlJam: no, I give up. I can't find the place you're referring to. I've found LeoNerd and fat commas, but I don't find you in it.
18:46 PZt joined #perl6
18:47 masak ah, found it!
18:47 Su-Shee masak: you'll find the more or less same discussion for Lisp under the slogan "worse is better"
18:49 masak PerlJam: ok, here's what I think: LeoNerd belongs to the set of people who want to make a point out of Perl 5 and Perl 6 being "different languages". since I could successfully argue for them being both different languages and the same language, I don't find making such a point important. but he does. maybe he even feels that you're on his lawn or something, due to talking Perl 6 on #perl.
18:50 payload joined #perl6
18:51 frettled He's Texan?
18:52 masak PerlJam: I'm no psychologist, but perhaps we are considered a threat by some, and they react by hostility. maybe they're afraid that we'll flood #perl with academic theory and vapourware releases. :)
18:52 Su-Shee (or maybe they just see the academic tendencies here and the abstractness and compare it to their dynamics and plainly stick with theirs.. ;)
18:53 frettled If I'd felt comfortable banging rusty nails with my wibbly bits, I would probably ask for a link to the IRC log in question.  But I don't think I do.  :)
18:53 Su-Shee it's really interesting that you all think that the perl 5 folks feel threatened instead of maybe just once assuming that they have a good reason for their view.. ;)
18:54 masak frettled: I'm not sure there are IRC logs for #perl.
18:54 masak I was backlogging in my client.
18:54 frettled masak: aha
18:54 frettled You know what I like about #perl6?
18:55 masak Su-Shee: it's a typical from-the-inside rationalization, I guess.
18:55 masak frettled: no, what do you like about #perl6?
18:55 moritz_ Su-Shee: I am interested in why Perl 5 folks dislike Perl 6. Just when the only answer is "because it's not there yet" there's nothing I can do with that answer
18:55 moritz_ Su-Shee: and that includes infrastructure and libraries
18:55 xinming_ joined #perl6
18:56 Su-Shee moritz_: you could take it it is meant - that someone just doesn't care about Perl 6 until it's really there and has a basic set of libs.
18:56 frettled Every other online community that I've joined, I've had to start out as an utterly deferential n00b who doesn't speak up, because, well, you're always a friggin' n00b every time you join a new online community, nevermind how much experience you have in the field or tech in question.
18:56 frettled But not so here.
18:56 masak I can proudly and without hesitation say that Perl 6 has one helluva development process, with spec/spectests/implementation reacting faster than any language process I know of.
18:56 moritz_ Su-Shee: so what would be my conclusion to draw from accepting that?
18:56 moritz_ Su-Shee: that I should leave poeple allone?
18:57 Su-Shee moritz_: you don't have to conclude anything from it, just take it as they say it and leave it at that.
18:57 PerlJam Su-Shee: I'm a "perl 5 folk" and I don't understand those *other* perl 5 folk who seem to react as if they are being threatened.
18:57 Su-Shee I'm half of a perl 6 folks and my doubts are growing every day and I understand very much what the fivers talk about.
18:57 masak PerlJam: but you're Perl 6 infected, too.
18:57 PerlJam Su-Shee: just like I don't understand those people that think that there is some sort of competition between Perl and Ruby or Perl and PHP or Perl and Python, etc.
18:58 pmurias moritz_: "because it's not there yet" is a valid reason
18:58 PerlJam Su-Shee: In my mind it doesn't have to be "Perl xor Ruby", but it can (and sometimes should) be "Perl *and* Ruby"
18:58 moritz_ pmurias: I know.
18:58 masak PerlJam: there should be a term for that kind of disease. maybe zerosumgameitis.
18:58 PerlJam masak: heh
18:59 Su-Shee PerlJam: but this channels enters exactly this competetition every day over and over again by implying the 5ers feel threatened or by joining the other channel and teasing around.
19:00 nihiliad joined #perl6
19:01 frettled Su-Shee: If that's how it appears, then we should amend our ways.
19:02 frettled Usually, though, I think that we're quite constructive, both in terms of community, and in terms of technology.
19:03 masak we definitely have our myths and misconceptions about the other side.
19:03 masak no question.
19:03 frettled And looking at how other people react as well as how we _think_ that other people react is an important part of the first.
19:03 Su-Shee actually, I think that there is no conflict and that all this is artificial anyway, because we're talking 5 folks in one channel and 5 in another - what the silent masses really think we just don't know.
19:03 frettled We are different enough within this channel that we can at least enlighten ourselves a bit.
19:03 frettled Su-Shee: well, we know that they're either being silent here or noisy somewhere else ;)
19:03 masak Su-Shee: I disagree.
19:04 masak Su-Shee: Perl 6 has had, and still has, directly provocative slogans that would enrage Perl 5 people if we weren't so insignificant.
19:04 masak "the next major version of Perl"
19:04 Su-Shee it would annoy mst and three others. ;)
19:05 pmurias and what is the next major version of Perl 5 supposed to be named?
19:05 frettled pmurias: that's a contradiction in terms
19:05 supernovus Perl 5.12 :-)
19:05 TimToady it is certainly the case that Perl culture has *always* been about teasing, even back at Perl 1 :)
19:05 frettled pmurias: "5" is the major version
19:06 frettled 5.10.1 => major version 5, minor version 10, patch level 1
19:06 masak Su-Shee: it's an intriguing idea that the whole conflict phenomenon is limited to five people on each side. that's not congruent with my experience, however.
19:06 pmichaud 18:58 <masak> PerlJam: there should be a term for that kind of disease. maybe zerosumgameitis.
19:06 pmichaud Jim Collins (author)  calls it "Tyranny of the 'Or'"
19:06 frettled samiam
19:06 supernovus I'd say in the case of Perl 5.10.1, 5 is the language varient, 10 is the 'major version' and '1' is the minor version. That's just my own opinion though :-)
19:06 frettled pmurias: not the xor?  :D
19:06 masak pmichaud: cool.
19:06 Su-Shee masak: I think, you're implicitly counting the public status of the 5 (let it be 12, then.. )
19:07 frettled supernovus: and that's (deliberately?) misunderstanding what "major version" means
19:07 pmichaud the opposite of which is "Genius of the 'And'".  He uses it to refer to business and organizational settings where people get trapped in an either/or mentality instead of finding ways to acheive all goals simultaneously
19:07 masak Su-Shee: I agree to the extent that the high-profile people are the most vocal in the debate. but I have no reason to believe that they are not expressing concerns that are more widespread.
19:08 moritz_ maybe we need to rename both Perl 5 and Perl 6 to completely diffent names :-)
19:08 frettled pmichaud: ah, so it's also sort of covering NIH?
19:08 masak moritz_: funny, that's what mst said. :)
19:08 frettled moritz_: white perl and black perl?
19:08 pmichaud "Strawberry Perl"   "Rakudo Perl"
19:08 frettled The Programming Language Formerly Known As Perl 5
19:09 pmichaud "Pugs"
19:09 masak Funny Glyph Perl.
19:09 mikehh joined #perl6
19:09 supernovus Perl 5 becomes Perl -> and Perl 6 becomes Perl *  ... that would go over well methinks ;-)
19:09 frettled Perl star?
19:09 moritz_ supernovus: not at all
19:09 Su-Shee masak: well if I ask the three dozen perl fellows I know which are the john and jane perl in berlin, they mostly tend to have a friendly view towards a new Perl, but they plainly wait until it's tangible for _them_ and their expectations. mr shee will try perl 6 - when it has mysql DBI and can parse his 200 gig per day.
19:10 masak "Wanted: Perl star programmer"
19:10 supernovus haha
19:11 frettled I think we should have a PostgreSQL DBI before that ;)
19:11 * Su-Shee will answer to "perl starlet wanted" ;)
19:11 Su-Shee frettled: well that excludes most ISP offering LAMP
19:12 masak Su-Shee: perhaps it all comes down to the fact that people engage differently in what's commonly thought of as 'the community'. my feeling is that the Perl 5 community has woven some sort of Perl 6 aversion/dislike/mistrust into itself.
19:12 frettled Su-Shee: ";)" is a winking smiley, which means...?
19:12 Su-Shee frettled: in my old school internet smiley dictionary it's "irony"
19:12 PerlJam masak: a vocal subset of the Perl 5 community ...
19:12 pmichaud PerlJam: +1
19:12 ShaneC joined #perl6
19:12 masak PerlJam: yes, but a subset which sets the tone.
19:13 pmichaud ... a subset which sets a tone that we're attuned to :)
19:13 Su-Shee which sets the tone in a very few places.
19:13 masak like conferences.
19:13 PerlJam Su-Shee: cite your use of "few"
19:13 pmichaud oh, I tend to agree with Su-Shee.  I hear from a lot of folks that use p5, are interested in p6 "when it's ready", but don't at all feel threatened by it
19:13 PerlJam I've seen it on IRC, perlmonks, twitter, blogs, encountered it in real life conversations, etc.
19:13 pmichaud they're just not vocal in their "I'm not threatened"-ness
19:14 Su-Shee masak: honestly, do you think the swedish perl community really cares as a whole what the 10 grand old dogen of perl 5 think about perl 6?
19:14 frettled Su-Shee: In my smiley list from 1985, it's the dwarf version of ;-), which is «Winky smiley. User just made a flirtatious and/or sarcastic remark. More of a "don't hit me for what I just said" smiley.»
19:14 frettled pmichaud: mm
19:14 Su-Shee frettled: well I mean it in irony and/or sarcastic way. and yes, something I actually do pun on being female.
19:15 frettled Su-Shee: but in either case, it was clear that I wouldn't mean what was written _seriously_.
19:15 frettled Su-Shee: both to you and other readers.
19:15 mikehh joined #perl6
19:15 pmichaud anyway, I don't think think any Perl 6 aversion is completely woven into the Perl (5) community.  It's there among many of the more visible and vocal members... but of course we don't hear from the people who aren't really threatened by Perl 6
19:16 frettled Su-Shee: I think I'll take a break now, because I can see that we're on the verge of hostility.  Sorry about that.
19:16 colomon pmichaud++
19:16 Su-Shee frettled: uhm what?
19:16 masak Su-Shee: I think the reason non-Perl people think that Perl 6 === DNF is due to bad or confused messages. I think there are similar reasons for Perl 5 people (not all of them, but some) not liking Perl 6.
19:17 Su-Shee frettled: I'm lying on the sofa with chocolate and hot tea and candles and chat about the politics and dynamics of programming communities... if that's hostile.. :)
19:17 PerlJam Su-Shee: you're female?!?  ;)
19:17 ash___ in parrot, is there an easier way to print a hash in a way to see its contents? using say just did: Hash[0xdeadbeef]
19:17 Su-Shee masak: "DNF"?
19:17 masak Duke Nukem Forever.
19:17 Su-Shee ah :)
19:17 masak inherent in the talk about 'setting the tone' is the idea that if our tone is good enough, we get to set it to some degree.
19:17 pmichaud ash___: see "dumper.pir"
19:17 ash___ pmichaud: thanks
19:17 pmichaud ash___: I generally do   _dumper(hash)
19:17 constant joined #perl6
19:17 ssm joined #perl6
19:17 parduncia joined #perl6
19:17 PerlJam Su-Shee: or, put another way ... on IRC, no one knows you're *not* male. :)
19:18 ash___ pmichaud: would _dump($P2) function the same?
19:18 pmichaud ash___: do you mean as opposed to _dumper($P2)  ?  I don't think so
19:18 pmichaud but _dumper(...)   is Parrot's generic data dumper
19:18 Tene I've been known to be not-male on IRC a few times.  Haven't worked out how to pull it off outside of IRC yet though.
19:18 Su-Shee PerlJam: well I'm not really hiding it but I don't have to wear it on my shirt.. a wait I just said I want a rakudo starlet shirt.. ;)
19:19 ash___ oops i meant _dumper($P0), just wanted to make sure it worked with the $P0 style registers
19:19 pmichaud ash___: it's supposed to be able to dump any PMC type
19:19 pmichaud (if the PMC type has the appropriate methods defined, which Hash, Array, etc. do)
19:19 ash___ pmichaud: alright, thanks
19:19 * masak heads home
19:19 Tene bye masak
19:20 masak I'll be happy to talk more about communities some other time!
19:20 masak it's a discussion worth having.
19:20 constant joined #perl6
19:20 ssm joined #perl6
19:20 parduncia joined #perl6
19:21 * PerlJam wonders if there's any divisiveness between "old school" perl 5 hackers and those that use things like Moose and Modern::Perl.   I haven't noticed any, but that doesn't mean it's not out there.
19:22 supernovus PerlJam: I have seen a little bit, but not as much as Perl 5 versus Perl 6.
19:24 ash___ in pir code, is the first param always self for a method sub?
19:24 Tene ash___: 'self' is a special register, always pointing to the invocant.  it's not passed as a param.
19:24 supernovus At work, we have a few people who consider Moose, Modern::Perl and/or perl5i to be "slow, bloated overkill", and don't want us to use it in work related projects.
19:25 Su-Shee PerlJam: there are. I know mostly "no moose, no poe, no catalyst" perl people.
19:26 supernovus Having never used POE or Catalyst, I guess I fall into some subset of that demographic, but I do use Moose (via MooseX::Declare) and my own branch of perl5i in a lot of projects.
19:27 moritz_ supernovus: I think the question is not if you use those things or not, but if you reject them
19:27 ash___ Tene: do you know what would be passed to something if you did role A { }; A.^methods; as the first parameter?
19:27 moritz_ ash___: the type object
19:27 moritz_ A.^methods is short for A.HOW.methods(A)
19:27 Tene A.^methods is the same as A...... yeah, what he said.
19:28 Su-Shee supernovus: I don't use Catalyst for example, I'm a qmail-mojo-unixoid-kiss-yagni-kind-a-girl.
19:28 PerlJam Everytime I think of some useful feature of Perl being "slow", it reminds me of the time I spent benchmarking the difference in speed between Perl 4 and Perl 5.  Ultimately I came to realize that it didn't matter so much that Perl 5 was slower than Perl 4 because Perl 5 was just so much *better*  :)
19:30 pmurias joined #perl6
19:30 ash___ moritz_: okay, well, there is an issue in ng's RoleHOW methods method src/metamodel/RoleHOW.pir#157 it doesn't have the attribute 'parrotclass'
19:31 moritz_ ash___: I'm not familiar with that code :(
19:31 ash___ ng: role A { method a { return 'b'; }}; say A.^methods;
19:31 p6eval ng 21558a: No such attribute 'parrotclass'␤current instr.: 'perl6;RoleHOW;methods' pc 4866 (src/metamodel/RoleHOW.pir:47)␤
19:32 pmichaud ash___: the problem is that very few of us know how type objects (A) get mapped internally
19:32 ash___ moritz_: you don't need to, i am just talking outloud mostly, trying to figure our whats going on to see if i can make a patch
19:32 moritz_ ash___: great :-)
19:33 pmichaud so, if you define role A { ... } -- I think only jnthn++ could say precisely what its type object ends up looking like
19:33 pmichaud (internally, that is)
19:34 pmichaud I can say that it's not going to be exactly the same as the type object for a class, and so I don't know its internal details
19:34 supernovus Well, in the case of Catalyst, I've never had the need for a MVC Web framework. For simple scripts, "use CGI::Simple" is all I really need.
19:35 ash___ pmichaud: jnthn++ said it was possibly only partially implemented, so i am seeing if i can figure it out thats all
19:36 japhb joined #perl6
19:36 Su-Shee supernovus: I'm undecided on the whole MVC thing yet...
19:36 Su-Shee still?
19:37 Tene "still"
19:44 jnthn Role type objects aren't so interesting, really. Mostly, they just need to know what their metaclass is, handle punning if somebody tries to call a method on them, and so forth. :-)
19:44 ash___ i see whats wrong
19:44 jnthn The actual info is in the metaclass.
19:44 jnthn At the moment we still somewhat base that on a Parrot role, but soon we can (I expect) stop doing so.
19:44 ash___ that methods method lists RoleHOW's methods not the specific Role's methods
19:46 jnthn Ah
19:46 jnthn That's a bug then.
19:47 jonasbn joined #perl6
19:47 ash___ ng: role A { method a { return 'b'; }}; say A.HOW.^methods;
19:47 p6eval ng 21558a: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
19:48 jonasbn left #perl6
19:48 jonasbn joined #perl6
19:48 ash___ on my computer that returns the list of methods in RoleHOW, but for some reason A.^methods also gets dispatched to that function
19:48 ash___ jnthn so, thats not the method that should be handling the a specific role's ^methods method?
19:54 moritz_ ttp://lastofthecarelessmen.blogspot.com/​2009/12/now-with-grammar-and-tests.html
19:54 moritz_ the tests can be greatly simplfied
19:55 moritz_ with given $match<ABC::broken_rhythm> { is .<<note>[0]<pitch><basenote> ... }
19:55 moritz_ erm, .<note>...
19:55 moritz_ sadly I don't manage to post code in the comments
19:55 jnthn ash___: Doing SomeRole.^methods should call SomeRole.HOW.methods(SomeRole)
19:56 jnthn ash___: And SomeRole.HOW should return an instance of RoleHOW
19:56 colomon moritz_: post the link to the irc log there?  :)
19:56 jnthn So yes, it's the right method.
19:56 jnthn the method  is probably buggy.
19:56 moritz_ colomon: or I just hope the author lurks here :-)
19:56 moritz_ likewise regex barline { '|' | ':|' | '|:' | ':|:' | '::' }
19:56 moritz_ looks like it would need LTM to work
19:57 moritz_ reordering the longest alternatives to the front would help
20:05 moritz_ wanted to post a link to that blog post, but now it doesn't respond at all when press the preview or submit button
20:08 jferrero joined #perl6
20:10 kaare_ joined #perl6
20:23 ash___ jnthn: how would you access the method list of a Perl6Role from pir?
20:24 ash___ if you know, if not i can try to find out
20:32 jnthn ash___: Currently, those are stored in the underlying Parrot role object (which is stored as an attribute in the metaclass instance), so you can get that and then do meth_list = inspect that_thing, 'methods' or so.
20:33 ash___ jnthn: k, i'll try that
20:39 TimToady heh, today's /. quote: Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him. - Fyodor Dostoevski
20:40 moritz_ how fitting
20:41 PerlJam Are you implying that Perl 5 people are evil?  ;->
20:42 moritz_ no :-)
20:43 * jnthn afk for a while
20:46 TimToady note that it is part of my belief system that a non-evil person can nevertheless be an evildoer.
20:48 reqamst joined #perl6
20:49 TimToady same goes for companies :)
20:50 diakopter yelp won't help google stay less evil
20:50 TimToady and, from time to time, language designers...
20:50 PerlJam TimToady: There's a little yin and yang in all of us.
20:55 cj TimToady: http://karma.colliertech.o​rg/~cjac/tmp/isurvived.png
20:56 cj moritz_: http://ilbot.colliertech.org/ubuntu-us-wa/today
20:57 moritz_ cj: thanks
20:58 cj moritz_: you bet.  thanks for your help.  /lastlog moritz_: will get you a couple of deps you should add to your HOWTO
21:00 justatheory joined #perl6
21:00 moritz_ cj: Bot::BasicBot and Calendar::Simple - did I miss any other?
21:05 pmurias joined #perl6
21:13 takadonet left #perl6
21:19 cj moritz_: let me check my logs
21:20 cj Date::Simple
21:20 * frettled wants Dating::Simple
21:21 cj Bot::BasicBot v0.81 (newer than lenny)
21:21 cj those seem like the only ones I mentioned in the channel
21:41 patspam joined #perl6
21:46 uva joined #perl6
21:52 * wayland76 wants Dating::TheRightPerson :)
21:54 ash___ is that a  perl 5 module? i don't see it in cpan
21:59 meppl joined #perl6
22:00 TimToady wrong cpan, you want the Complementary Person Analysis Network for that one
22:01 wayland76 Is that Open Source? :)
22:02 mberends has Dating::More been written yet?
22:02 IllvilJa What is the best way, non-blocking way to check if the user has pressed a key? (Considering a Perl6 program running in a terminal session)
22:02 IllvilJa Oh, and of course, if a key is pressed... what key as well :-).
22:07 frettled wayland76: Anyway, that's NYI
22:08 mberends IllvilJa: there is no way to read keys without blocking. Even the mature Perl 5 ways are said to not always work, afair.
22:09 moritz_ there's Term::ReadKey, but it's *nix only, and has no real tests
22:10 moritz_ (for Perl 5, that is)
22:11 TimToady your best bet for Perl 6 right now is probably to write a helper program to read the terminal and send in the keystrokes as events via a socket
22:12 moritz_ but we don't have non-blocking socket reads either :Z/
22:12 moritz_ s/Z//
22:12 PerlJam blocking--
22:13 TimToady blocking is okay if there's only one source of events, and the problem is event-driven...
22:13 TimToady in general, polling solutions are going to bite you sooner or later
22:14 frettled especially the electronic ones
22:14 ash___ how do you get the type of a pmc in pir? class $P0, $P1 seems to work, is that what that function does? or am i crazy
22:18 Wolfman2000 joined #perl6
22:18 moritz_ ash___: maybe #parrot would be more responsive to PIR questions
22:18 ash___ thats on the perl irc server right?
22:22 moritz_ yes
22:22 moritz_ irc.perl.org
22:23 wayland76 ash___, moritz_: No, it's on irc.parrot.org
22:23 moritz_ wayland76: that's a DNS alias
22:24 moritz_ $ host irc.parrot.org
22:24 moritz_ irc.parrot.org is an alias for irc.perl.org.
22:24 wayland76 Ah, ok :)
22:25 wayland76 So now I've simplified my IRC config :)
22:30 ash___ ng: say ''.^methods;
22:30 p6eval ng 21558a: Null PMC access in inspect_str()␤current instr.: 'perl6;ClassHOW;methods' pc 3898 (src/metamodel/ClassHOW.pir:372)␤
22:31 ash___ i think there are some problems with introspection at this moment in ng
22:32 IllvilJa Ok, if I do a blocking read of a single keypress... is there a way for that?
22:33 JodaX joined #perl6
22:33 IllvilJa (But no non-blocking read of keypresses... that would be disastrous if I would attempt to reimplement good old unix 'hunt' in perl 6 ;-) )
22:33 Tene IllvilJa: I've done some Curses stuff with rakudo.  It likely won't work anymore without some updates to rakudo's inter-hll loading, though.
22:34 Gruber joined #perl6
22:34 d4l3k_ joined #perl6
22:34 r0bby_ joined #perl6
22:34 nothingmuch_ joined #perl6
22:34 elmex joined #perl6
22:35 yves joined #perl6
22:35 p6eval joined #perl6
22:36 simcop2387_ joined #perl6
22:37 Infinoid joined #perl6
22:37 IRSeekBot joined #perl6
22:38 buubot joined #perl6
22:43 stephenlb joined #perl6
22:47 wayland76 joined #perl6
22:53 ash___ moritz_: $a.^methods; translates to $a.HOW.methods($a) or $a.HOW.methods($a.WHAT) ?
22:58 ash___ nm, i checked S12, its the first one $a.HOW.methods($a)
22:58 ash___ found another bug then
22:58 mikehh joined #perl6
23:01 zaslon lolmoritzhazblogged! moritz++ 'Publicity for Perl 6': http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/per​l-6/publicity-for-perl-6.html
23:05 mberends moritz_: it has been an incredibly successful Perl 6 Advent blog.  Well done!
23:06 uva voice test
23:07 constant joined #perl6
23:07 ssm joined #perl6
23:07 parduncia joined #perl6
23:09 ash___ ng: ''.^methods;
23:09 p6eval ng 21558a: Null PMC access in inspect_str()␤current instr.: 'perl6;ClassHOW;methods' pc 3898 (src/metamodel/ClassHOW.pir:372)␤
23:10 ash___ should i put ng branch bugs in the perl 6 bug tracker?
23:11 pugs_svn r29375 | mberends++ | [pugs/src/perl6/vill] introducing vill, a viv+llvm mashup
23:11 constant joined #perl6
23:11 ssm joined #perl6
23:11 parduncia joined #perl6
23:13 constant joined #perl6
23:13 ssm joined #perl6
23:13 parduncia joined #perl6
23:15 constant joined #perl6
23:15 ssm joined #perl6
23:15 parduncia joined #perl6
23:19 patspam joined #perl6
23:20 PerlJam All you perl6advent people look at my draft for Day 20 and send me some commentary.  (I know it needs work)
23:20 PerlJam Gotta go now, but I will backlog  (or you can tell phenny)
23:24 am0c joined #perl6
23:32 Tene PerlJam: s/xpress/express/
23:53 sjohnson oh, the bliss of Perl -> PHP serializers

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo