Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:03 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 23: Lazy fruits from the gather of Eden': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/​day-23-lazy-fruits-from-the-gather-of-eden/
00:06 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 22: Operator Overloading': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/200​9/12/22/day-22-operator-overloading/
00:09 zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 23: Lazy fruits from the gather of Eden': http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/​day-23-lazy-fruits-from-the-gather-of-eden/
00:12 diakopter zaslon: thanks
00:12 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
00:13 diakopter zaslon: i see
00:13 zaslon Sorry, I don't understand that command
00:20 dduncan question, are there multiple NaN values or just one?  the synopsis talk as if there is just one but I thought I read otherwise somewhere, such as a different NaN for each general reason we don't have a number
00:21 dduncan in the latter case, NaN sounds like a specialized unthrown exception
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01:28 colomon_ dduncan: I think the spec is still vague on that.
01:42 Baggio_ joined #perl6
01:48 diakopter http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/1/55760-what-sh​ould-we-teach-new-software-developers-why/fulltext
01:59 ash__ diakopter: thats why my degree says 'Software Engineer' not computer science, well hopefully when i get it next semester
01:59 diakopter http://schneide.wordpress.com/2009/1​2/21/the-fallacy-of-the-right-tool/
02:00 diakopter ash__: oh :)
02:01 diakopter oh look, the essay isn't copyrighted yet until 2010
02:01 diakopter heh
02:01 ash__ i like to think i can program, or am better at the programming side of 'computer science' but that may be a biased opinion
02:02 ash__ dang, they are a month ahead of everyone else
02:02 eternaleye diakopter: That is an awesome post
02:02 ash__ i'd hate to be in one of his classes, if he's that far ahead i'd never catch up
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02:03 ash__ speaking of ACM, i gave a presentation on perl6 and rakudo at my school, and am probably going to give it again next semester
02:05 diakopter eternaleye: which one? the Stroustrup essay or the Softwareschneiderei GmbH post
02:05 eternaleye Stroustrup
02:08 diakopter ash__: re your degree-to-be, he writes 'Preferring the labels "software engineering" or "IT" over "CS" may indicate differences in perspective, but problems have a nasty way of reemerging in slightly different guises after a move to a new setting.'
02:12 diakopter imho, students should be awarded distinct measurements of achievement in their demonstrated ability in the areas of Problem/Goal Analysis/Identification and Measurement/Experiment Design/Implementation
02:17 diakopter the first category is Analyzing a Problem (and in the absence of having a Problem to Analyze), Identifying a measurable Goal for improvement
02:20 diakopter the second category is Designing and Implementing Measurements and Experiments, obviously :)  Computers, their softwares, and the states of those softwares are the subjects/universe for compsci students, and the rest falls out from there.  </hand_wave>
02:24 diakopter otoh, "Computer Scientists" Science is an very different discipline.
02:26 sjohnson hi
02:27 diakopter sjohnson: hola
02:28 sjohnson hows it goin!
02:28 diakopter Blackberry data services down globally for 4 hours
02:31 eternaleye ouch
02:32 ash__ diakopter: my schools main distinction between CS and Software engineering is software engineers have more project based classes and have to take a few extra classes like software process vs cs that have to take more theoretical classes on programming and a few more EE-ish related classes
02:34 eternaleye ash__: What school?
02:37 ash__ auburn
02:37 ash__ university in auburn al
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03:34 colomon_ ng: (1...11).grep(*%3)>>.say
03:34 p6eval ng 9d5018: too few positional arguments: 3 passed, 4 (or more) expected␤current instr.: 'perl6;Code;new' pc 11669 (src/builtins/Positional.pir:125)␤
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03:35 colomon_ ng: (1...11).grep({$_ % 3})>>.say
03:35 p6eval ng 9d5018: Method 'grep' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
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03:45 freakazoid_42 hello
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05:40 restrictedinfini m new to this community
05:40 restrictedinfini can someone guide me how to get started
05:41 mberends yes, tell me a bit about your interests
05:51 dduncan that didn't last long
05:52 mberends probably didn't get the right kind of help :-/
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06:04 mberends that Bjarne Stroustrup article http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/1/55760-what-sh​ould-we-teach-new-software-developers-why/fulltext is close to my heart in sentiments but disappointing for lack of practical solutions
06:08 mberends "teachers should program more", "students should write bigger programs", "only qualified programmers should be allowed to supply certain software". That last one whiffs of closed shop trade unionism.
06:09 mberends I'd expected better from Bjarne
06:13 mberends actively participating in #perl6 has done more to improve my programmer skills than over 10 years in the classroom (they were not idle years either, just commercially oriented). :)
06:31 spinclad can somebody haz edit privs on wordpress for the latest advent?  i presume  "sort { $^a[1]  $^b[1] },"  has a hidden spaceship in it, cloaked by the html encoding.
06:31 spinclad and "The second property of gather is that {s//while /}the take calls ..."
06:31 spinclad and "sub hamming-sequence() # 2**a * 3**b * 5**c, where { all(a,b,c) <= 0 }":   s/ <= / >= /
06:32 mberends thanks, will do
06:33 spinclad mberends++
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06:37 mberends spinclad: spaceship or cmp ?
06:38 mberends ok, date, <=> is correct
06:41 mberends that missing 'while' had me puzzled a few hours ago as well
06:45 agentzh joined #perl6
06:48 mberends fixed. spinclad++
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07:13 Su-Shee good morning
07:14 mberends good morning
07:29 moritz_ good moroning
07:31 diakopter moritz_: GO DMONRNGIO
07:31 diakopter I mean..
07:31 diakopter :)
07:31 moritz_ :-)
07:32 diakopter ok, I got my little grammar compiler up to 9m compiled RE invocations/second.
07:32 constant joined #perl6
07:32 diakopter I'd say that's a good place to arrest the premature optimization for now
07:34 moritz_ 9M or 9m? :-)
07:34 diakopter oh; lol
07:34 diakopter 1e6
07:34 diakopter I mean
07:34 diakopter 9e6
07:35 diakopter but yeah, 100 seconds/invocation would be, ... slow
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07:36 mberends 9 millicompiles is worse than GGE
07:36 diakopter invocations, not compiles
07:47 mberends heh, after a wrong tar option: tar: Cowardly refusing to create an empty archive
07:48 mberends cowards!
07:48 * moritz_ likes that
07:48 moritz_ that always happens when I accidentally use c instead of x
07:49 mberends indeed :)
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08:01 diakopter bryan[c1]: wb
08:01 bryan[c1] ?
08:02 diakopter you were here a day or two ago, iirc
08:02 lisppaste3 bryan[c1] pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92520
08:02 bryan[c1] indeed i was
08:02 bryan[c1] cant understand why that doesnt work
08:02 bryan[c1] must be retarded or something
08:02 diakopter Perl 6 doesn't have a 'use strict;'
08:02 bryan[c1] im banned from #perl
08:02 bryan[c1] so its 5.x
08:03 bryan[c1] sorry
08:04 mberends bryan[c1]: would you still be banned if you dropped the [c1] from your nick?
08:04 xinming mberends: what's wrong with c1?
08:04 bryan[c1] not sure if that would really make a difference
08:05 mberends actually, you could assume another nick such as ReallyGrovellingNewbie ;)
08:05 bryan[c1] :(
08:05 bryan[c1] how the hell is it not working
08:05 mberends but those #perl types are sometimes like the vultures in Lion King
08:06 diakopter bryan[c1]: it needs a semicolon after the first print
08:06 bryan[c1] oh LOL
08:06 bryan[c1] now you made me feel dumb
08:06 * bryan[c1] cries
08:07 bryan[c1] LOL
08:07 diakopter hugme: hug bryan[c1]
08:07 * hugme hugs bryan[c1]
08:07 mberends xinming: suffixes for uniqueness are fine, but they are quite noisy when not required
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08:13 flip214 fröhliche weihnachten
08:16 flip214 rakudo: my $a="a:a:a"; $a.=subst( rx{ \: $ }, "."); say $a;
08:16 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: a:a:a␤
08:16 flip214 rakudo: my $a="a:a:a:"; $a.=subst( rx{ \: $ }, "."); say $a;
08:16 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: a:a:a.␤
08:16 flip214 rakudo: my $a="a:a:a:"; $a.=subst( rx{ \: $ }, "X"); say $a;
08:16 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: a:a:aX␤
08:16 flip214 rakudo: my $a="a:a:a:"; $a.=subst( rx{ ':' $ }, "X"); say $a;
08:16 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: a:a:aX␤
08:17 flip214 rakudo: my $a="a:a:a:"; $a.=subst( rx{ ":" $ }, "X"); say $a;
08:17 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Confused at line 2, near "( rx{ \":\" "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
08:18 flip214 Is this wrong? Shouldn't that work, too, like with single quotes?
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08:29 moritz_ just NYI
08:29 diakopter o/ ciao4nowUpals
08:37 TiMBuS|Away joined #perl6
08:44 mathw o/
08:44 lisppaste3 bryan[c1] pasted "n00b" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92522
08:45 bryan[c1] dont click that
08:45 bryan[c1] well you can but its stupid
08:50 dduncan so you basically posted a button that says "don't click me"
08:50 bryan[c1] actually i forgot it posted into the channel
08:51 bryan[c1] im used to using copypastas that dont do that sort of thing
08:51 dduncan okay
08:51 bryan[c1] plus its a stupid 10 line beginner program
08:52 bryan[c1] sorry if it was such a bother
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09:09 moritz_ no problem
09:09 meneldor hello all
09:13 mathw Hello meneldor
09:14 meneldor do anyone use p6 for web now?
09:14 meneldor is there something like the old CGI.pm
09:15 moritz_ I think there is, in the November repo
09:17 mathw Web.pm
09:18 mathw which I believe November's been converted to use, but it's a separate project
09:18 mberends mathw: the conversion is very partial so far
09:19 mathw mberends: I didn't know how much had been done
09:20 mberends November has only just kept ahead of bitrot in the last few months, because of more important other projects
09:21 mberends November the CGI.pm is probably usable though
09:22 mberends *the November
09:24 mberends afk & # shower
09:26 moritz_ hugme: list projects
09:26 hugme moritz_: I know about book, gge, hugme, ilbot, json, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
09:27 moritz_ hugme: add moritz to november
09:27 * hugme hugs moritz. Welcome to november!
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09:33 bacek o hai
09:33 moritz_ are new November features still generally prototyped in p5w?
09:33 moritz_ hi bacek
09:33 bacek std: my @tentura; say ?all(<id>.defined << @tentura)
09:33 p6eval std 29388: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of << to do left shift; in Perl 6 please use +< or ~< at /tmp/tILw2Wwz7D line 1:␤------> [32mmy @tentura; say ?all(<id>.defined << [33m⏏[31m@tentura)[0m␤FAILED 00:01 109m␤
09:33 baest joined #perl6
09:33 dalek november: a194133 | moritz++ |  (2 files):
09:33 dalek november: start to get rid of the undef term
09:33 dalek november: review: http://github.com/viklund/november/commit​/a1941333bc99a03ef5b63cb27b3e53d52fe52c0a
09:33 bacek std: my @tentura; say ?all(defined << @tentura)
09:33 p6eval std 29388: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤(Possible runaway string from line 1)␤Unsupported use of << to do left shift; in Perl 6 please use +< or ~< at /tmp/Z65coUomna line 1 (EOF):␤------> [32m @tentura; say ?all(defined << @tentura)[33m⏏[31m<EOL>[0m␤FAILED 00:02 108m␤
09:34 bacek moritz_, how hyper-operators should work on methods? (And should they?)
09:34 moritz_ rakudo: say <a b c>>>.uc
09:34 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: ABC␤
09:35 bacek rakudo: my @a=(a, undef, b); say ?all(@a>>defined)
09:35 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Confused at line 2, near "(@a>>defin"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
09:35 bacek erm...
09:35 bacek rakudo: my @a=(a, undef, b); say all(@a>>defined)
09:35 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Confused at line 2, near "(@a>>defin"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
09:36 moritz_ rakudo: my @a=(a, undef, b); say all(@a>>.defined)
09:36 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Could not find non-existent sub a␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
09:36 moritz_ you still need a dot
09:36 moritz_ rakudo: my @a=('a', undef, 'b'); say all(@a>>.defined)
09:36 bacek rakudo: my @a=('a', undef, 'b'); say all(@a>>.defined)
09:36 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: all(Bool::True, Bool::False, Bool::True)␤
09:36 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: all(Bool::True, Bool::False, Bool::True)␤
09:36 moritz_ rakudo: my @a=('a', undef, 'b'); say ?all(@a>>.defined)
09:36 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: 0␤
09:36 bacek heh :)
09:37 moritz_ the junction only collapses in boolean context
09:37 bacek rakudo: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, ( id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a>>.<id>.defined)
09:37 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: Confused at line 2, near "( id => 'b"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
09:37 bacek rakudo: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a>>.<id>.defined)
09:38 TiMBuS|Away joined #perl6
09:38 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
09:38 moritz_ you probably want @a».<id>».defined
09:38 moritz_ std: my @a; @a».<id>».defined
09:38 p6eval std 29388: ok 00:01 106m␤
09:38 bacek rakudo: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a>>.<id>>>.defined)
09:39 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
09:39 bacek looks like rakudo timing-out...
09:39 bacek rakudo: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a>>.<id>)
09:39 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
09:40 bacek sigh... Did I broke it?
09:40 bacek rakudo: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }); say ~@a;
09:40 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
09:40 bacek std: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a>>.<id>>>.defined)
09:40 p6eval std 29388: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤     Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤   an undefined type object such as Int,␤    Nil as an empty list,␤    *.notdef as a matcher or method,␤ Any:U as a type
09:40 p6eval ..constraint␤       or fail() …
09:41 bacek std: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => Mu }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a>>.<id>>>.defined)
09:41 p6eval std 29388: ok 00:01 108m␤
09:41 bacek ookey
09:41 bacek afk # dinner
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09:45 mathw mmm dinner
09:45 mathw that would be nice
09:47 Tene Okay, I'm now halfway to having my scheme macros not suck.
09:47 Tene Got the pattern matching half working properly.
09:48 mathw yay
09:49 Chillance joined #perl6
10:09 dalek november: d598e32 | moritz++ | lib/ (2 files):
10:09 dalek november: remove the undef term from November
10:09 dalek november: review: http://github.com/viklund/november/commit​/d598e32327b51a254b1c71fda2a82c4b5b4bc3f1
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10:23 bacek rakudo: my @a = { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }; say ~@a
10:24 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:24 bacek interesting.
10:24 bacek rakudo: my @a = { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }; say @a.WHAT
10:24 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:25 JimmyZ rakudo: my %a = { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }; say %a.WHAT
10:25 bacek std: my @a = { id => 'a' }, { id => undef }, { id => 'b' }; say @a.WHAT
10:25 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:25 p6eval std 29388: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of undef as a value; in Perl 6 please use something more specific:␤     Mu (the "most undefined" type object),␤   an undefined type object such as Int,␤    Nil as an empty list,␤    *.notdef as a matcher or method,␤ Any:U as a type
10:25 p6eval ..constraint␤       or fail() …
10:25 bacek JimmyZ, I need list of hashes
10:25 bacek std: my @a = { id => 'a' }, { id => Mu }, { id => 'b' }; say @a.WHAT
10:25 p6eval std 29388: ok 00:01 107m␤
10:26 JimmyZ rakudo: my @a = { id => 'a' }, { id => Mu }, { id => 'b' }; say @a.WHAT
10:26 bacek rakudo: my @a = ({ id => 'a' }); say @a.WHAT
10:26 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:26 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:26 hejki rakudo: my @a = { id => "a" }, { id => undef }, { id => "b" }; say ~@a
10:27 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:27 hejki rakudo: my @a = { id => "a" }, { id => undef }, { id => "b" }; ~@a.say
10:27 JimmyZ rakudo: my %a = ({ id => 'a' }); say %a.WHAT
10:27 agentzh joined #perl6
10:27 JimmyZ rakudo: my %a = ({ id => 'a' }); say @(%a).WHAT
10:27 Tene bacek: what you've been doing works fine for me locally.
10:27 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:27 Tene it just takes too long for p6eval.
10:28 bacek Tene, ah, thanks.
10:28 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:28 p6eval rakudo 8dc189:  ( no output )
10:28 flip214 happy xmas, and a nice new year everyone.
10:30 TiMBuS|Away joined #perl6
10:32 bacek std: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => Mu }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a >> .<id> >> .defined)
10:32 p6eval std 29388: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please use +> or ~> at /tmp/6KNP33WdIy line 1:␤------> [32m=> Mu }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a >> [33m⏏[31m.<id> >> .defined)[0m␤FAILED 00:01 108m␤
10:37 bacek std: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => Mu }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a » .<id> » .defined)
10:37 p6eval std 29388: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Unable to parse argument list; couldn't find final ')' at /tmp/uVS2r1UsxO line 1:␤------> [32md => Mu }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a »[33m⏏[31m .<id> » .defined)[0m␤    expecting any of:␤ infix or meta-infix␤      infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤
10:37 p6eval ..terminator␤F…
10:37 bacek std: my @a = ( { id => 'a' }, { id => Mu }, { id => 'b' }); say ?all(@a».<id>».defined)
10:37 p6eval std 29388: ok 00:01 108m␤
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11:13 bacek_ rakudo: my $a; say $a.defined; say all($a).defined;
11:13 p6eval rakudo 8dc189: 0␤1␤
11:13 bacek_ interesting. Is it expected behaviour?
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13:07 mberends hi pmurias
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13:21 pmurias mberends: hi
13:22 mberends just reading smop/lowdoc/01_base.pod
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15:11 rjbs also: thanks for those questions; reminded me that I needed to update my linode to use Pobox SASL again
15:12 Baggio_ joined #perl6
15:12 rjbs mischan
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16:01 pmurias mberends: anything needs fixing in lowdoc/01_base.pod
16:01 pmurias ?
16:03 mberends pmurias: nothing urgent, I think I can correct a few minor things. It is a fairly good explanation, helped me quite a bit, thanks :)
16:05 mberends pmurias: Q: is it best to assume that the re-mildew and re-smop directories can be ignored, because you are moving the content gradually into mildew and smop?
16:05 pmurias re-mildew and re-smop were renamed to mildew and smop
16:06 pmurias mberends: are you sure you have an up to date checkout?
16:07 mberends oh, then I'll delete the fossils left over locally. maybe even svn rm them.
16:07 mberends pmurias: my pugs tree might be quite old, but it is current
16:08 pmurias mberends: it seems to be a git-svn thing that it left empty directories
16:08 mberends pmurias: removing, thanks
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16:15 pmurias mberends: you svn rm them?
16:16 mberends pmurias: busy with that, yes. not complete yet.
16:17 mberends (must manually weed out generated (non svn) files first)
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16:19 pmurias mberends: just rm -fr re-smop, svn checkout re-smop and svn rm re-smop
16:19 pmurias * svn update
16:19 mberends pmurias: ah, thanks! ( /me svn n00b )
16:23 pugs_svn r29389 | mberends++ | [v6] remove re-smop and re-mildew, please now use smop and mildew
16:23 pmurias perl6 doesn't have reserved identifiers?
16:23 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
16:23 moritz_ \o/
16:23 mberends good morning pmichaud
16:24 pmichaud can only stay for a moment -- I'm about to write my advent post; if anyone has any huge ideas for things they really want to see there then please let me know :)
16:24 pmichaud otherwise, I'll start writing in about an hour or so
16:26 pmichaud I have two possible themes in mind:   (1)   "The Path to Rakudo Star",   and (2)  "Yes, Virginia, there is a Perl 6"
16:26 pmichaud (http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/ for those who want the reference to #2 :-)
16:26 moritz_ unresolved cultural reference at line (2)
16:26 mberends pmichaud: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2009-12-20#i_1857710
16:26 * [particle] wonders if there's a virginia.pm...
16:27 mberends pmichaud: and 17:53
16:29 masak joined #perl6
16:29 masak \o/
16:29 mberends \o/ masak
16:29 pmichaud masak:  (from backscroll)
16:30 pmichaud 16:24 <pmichaud> can only stay for a moment -- I'm about to write my advent post; if anyone has any huge ideas for things they really want to see there then please let me  know :)
16:30 masak moritz_: earlier today, you said that "" quotes were a feature of Perl 6 regexes, just NYI in Rakudo. on what do you base that?
16:30 pmichaud 16:24 <pmichaud> otherwise, I'll start writing in about an hour or so
16:30 pmichaud 16:25 <pmichaud> I have two possible themes in mind:   (1)   "The Path to Rakudo Star",   and (2)  "Yes, Virginia, there is a Perl 6"
16:30 pmichaud 16:26 <pmichaud> (http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/ for those who want the reference to #2 :-)
16:30 pmichaud "" quotes are a feature of Perl 6 regexes, yes.
16:30 masak pmichaud: hm. hm hm hm.
16:30 moritz_ masak: S05/Simplified lexical parsing of patterns/
16:31 masak moritz_, pmichaud: thanks!
16:31 moritz_ (Double quotes are also allowed, with the same interpolative semantics as the current language in which the regex is lexically embedded.)
16:31 pmichaud nqp-rx even implements them.  :)
16:31 masak \o/
16:31 pmichaud (with full interpolation semantics)
16:32 pmichaud okay, I have to run some errands.  If anyone has ideas or suggestions, please highlight my nick
16:32 pmichaud (or votes on those two themes)
16:32 * mberends downvotes the Virginia meme, denial being associated with deniers
16:32 moritz_ masak: I recommend to read S05 some day, it's well worth it :-)
16:32 masak pmichaud: I'd like the 24th post of Perl 6 to blow people's minds away, so that they are left staring at the screen, drooling in Mac-fanboi-like awe.
16:32 pmichaud (for #2, the post would make sense even without knowing the cultural reference :-)
16:32 pmichaud masak: well, I don't have a "blow people away" subject off the top of my head -- unless there's one hiding in topic-suggestions
16:33 masak pmichaud: I'm of two minds: maybe a vision post is the right thing to do, maybe it isn't. it all depends on how it's written, I guess.
16:34 pmichaud I had been aiming more at a "strong finish that lets people know we're still making progress and that April is in sight"
16:34 masak yes, something like that.
16:34 pmichaud mberends: downvote noted, thanks!
16:34 masak only with fireworks, subwoofers, and strong winds.
16:35 snearch joined #perl6
16:35 pmichaud mberends: (I had similar reservations... not sure I want to push back against negatives.  I can do the "yes virginia" post as a normal non-advent post if I still feel like it :-)
16:36 moritz_ http://lastofthecarelessmen.blogspot.co​m/2009/12/good-thing-perl-is-dead.html something along these lines might also work (much humour)
16:36 mberends +1 to "The Path to Rakudo Star" because it would be inspiring to have some glimpses into the mind of an awesome compiler design(er).
16:37 pmichaud yes, I was just thinking that perhaps the 24th advent post (blow people's minds away) would be a description of how the compiler works in the ng branch, showing off the regexes, action methods, etc.
16:39 moritz_ that would be awesome
16:39 moritz_ +1 from me
16:39 masak pmichaud: yes; perhaps with relatively little focus on internals and much focus on the delivered functionality.
16:39 masak here's my highly subjective list of the posts poeple liked the most: .fmt, looping, .pick, given/when, roles, grammars/actions
16:39 masak (based on a combination of number of comments and my subjective tastes)
16:40 pmichaud okay, gotta run.  Please add comments and suggestions... I'd be happy if the 24th post was a community post instead of just me :)
16:40 pmichaud (wish I had thought of that a week ago, though)
16:41 masak most posts are community posts. :)
16:41 masak community++ # you guys are great!
16:41 masak (and gals, and butterflies)
16:59 cotto_w0rk I really liked the Whatever post.
17:02 moritz_ thanks
17:11 cotto_w0rk (plus it's great that Whatever is now a technical term)
17:16 pmichaud and "phasers" too :-)
17:42 pmurias mberends:  did you manage to get mildew to run?
17:49 masak yes, I liked the Whatever post too.
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19:13 Tene pmichaud: any chance you're around today?
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19:59 pmichaud Tene: here, but working on my advent post.
20:00 kaare_ joined #perl6
20:01 Tene pmichaud: Just want a little sanity check on some macro stuff I'm working on, implementing it in my scheme compiler first.
20:03 pugs_svn r29390 | pmurias++ | [mildew] fix smop backend
20:03 pugs_svn r29391 | pmurias++ | [mildew] refactor AST.pm to use MooseX::Declare
20:04 Tene My current implementation strategy is to cache the text of the macro body on definition, and then each time the macro is evaluated, set some context vars corresponding to what was matched, and call back into the compiler to ask for an AST of the cached macro body, with action methods that will check for the $*MACRO or whatever for the arguments to the macro.
20:05 kaare_ joined #perl6
20:06 pmichaud Well, "cache the text of the macro body" triggers my "that doesn't smell right" sense.... but it may be correct in this particular application
20:06 rjbs macros aren't textual, are they?
20:06 pmichaud rjbs: we're talking in scheme, here.
20:06 * rjbs had assumed they were some sort of parameterizable syntax tree mumblehandwave.
20:06 Tene Yes, also raises a warning for me.
20:07 mberends pmurias: sorry, I've not managed to get mildew to run (yet). If there are any instructions I'd like to know about them, otherwise I shall document while learning what to do.
20:07 Tene Um, I guess I *could* make something like that.
20:07 rjbs Even in Scheme, I'd think that.  I'm just peanut-gallerying, though.  Don't mind me.
20:07 pmichaud I'm not familiar enough with scheme macros to be able to say
20:07 * rjbs should not be distracting anyone from "works and can be improved later"
20:07 Tene build an object that has an AST and also holds references to nodes in the tree.
20:08 pmichaud Tene: yeah, we may want a parameterizable AST or something like that
20:09 rjbs pmichaud: They must be syntactically valid, afaik, although they need not be semantically sensible outside the context of the macro.
20:09 rjbs Doh, I just tried to install mzscheme on this workstation and it failed.  Instead, I will go shower and shave. &
20:11 Tene rjbs: I wouldn't be doing textual substitution, I'd be re-evaluating the same text each time in a different context.
20:11 Tene So, effectively a parameterized AST, just with a shady implementation. :)
20:12 pmichaud Tene: anyway, I don't have much further comments about it at the moment.  Perhaps the best first-cut is to go ahead with a text-based macro, just to explore it further and see what works or doesn't work.
20:12 Tene pmichaud: would you be comfortable with an implementation like that for rakudo, or would you much prefer to see some kind of parameterizable AST first?
20:12 pmichaud but also know that we're likely to throw it away
20:12 Tene Or do you withold judgement until you see an impl? :)
20:13 pmichaud well, for rakudo I'm wanting to avoid macros at the moment, unless the implementation is almost trivially simple
20:13 pmichaud iirc, macros aren't on the critical path for rakudo star, and I'm a bit concerned that the specification is still immature
20:14 moritz_ it won't get mature unless somebody implements it
20:14 pmichaud moritz_: correct, but right now my focus is on getting the ng branch landed
20:15 pmichaud I'm afraid that macros might end up being a huge distraction and/or pose difficulties for the other pieces that we *do* need to implement for Rakudo *
20:15 pmichaud thus I'm in favor if the implementation is trivially simple
20:15 pmichaud it could also be done in a branch
20:16 Tene pmichaud: If protoregexes get implemented as it sounded like the spec will flal out after talking with TT, I expect a macro implementation to be almost trivially simple.
20:16 pmichaud Tene: right -- so I'd need to review the spec changes
20:16 Tene pmichaud: what do you see as the current priority for work on ng?
20:17 pmichaud but one of the lessons of the past couple of years is that if advanced features go into the implementation too soon, it makes it really hard to refactor some of the core features later on
20:17 Tene :) yes.
20:18 pmichaud right now the priority has to be getting roles and classes back to where they were, list/array handling, and list assignment
20:18 Su-Shee joined #perl6
20:18 pmichaud I know I'm way behind on the list stuff
20:19 Tene Ah, yes, I was still waiting on that.  I remember now.
20:19 pmichaud i just need a day's effort to finish it, but it also has to be a day with the right energy levels on my end
20:19 pmichaud Anyway, I need to get back to my advent post or I won't be done in time.
20:19 Tene Yes, I'm done harassing you for now. :)
20:22 rjbs Tene: Right, I figured -- the difference being that you could crash earlier with an AST.  Anyway, I think pmichaud is right to suggest "jfdi first and see how it goes"
20:22 KyleHa joined #perl6
20:27 Tene rjbs: fwiw, it looks like S06 not only suggests textual macros, but also that an implementation should support macros of things that wouldn't be valid code on their own... unbalanced brackets, etc.
20:28 Tene kinda like: macro start_debug { "if $debug {" }; macro end_debug { "}" };
20:32 pdcawley joined #perl6
20:33 rjbs Tene: Weird.  I will defer my worrying until later.
20:34 Tene fwiw, *I* don't plan to implement those any time soon. :)
20:35 rjbs :-)
20:35 rjbs phew, I got a better-than-z-machine scheme installed.
20:37 bluescreen joined #perl6
20:38 Tene You could install my scheme: http://github.com/tene/steme/ ;)
20:39 rjbs I'll see if I Can have a look later.  Company calling, soon.
20:40 Tene rjbs: I'm just trolling. :)
20:40 * rjbs wouldn't mind looking, really.
20:40 rjbs just so pressed for time lately :|
20:41 rjbs at least I can stop worrying about advent calendar code for 11 months, soon.
20:41 rjbs (I guess I could've stopped worrying like 3wk ago)
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21:22 pmichaud advent post draft now available
21:22 pmichaud comments welcomed
21:22 Wolfman2000 Good thing I came in now. Hang on.
21:25 Wolfman2000 pmichaud++ for the post
21:26 ejs joined #perl6
21:27 pmichaud in some ways I see the Perl 6 grammar (and the new regex design) as being another of TimToady's many gifts the world... and time will tell the tale of how valuable it truly ends up being.  :)
21:28 pmichaud *gifts to the world
21:32 pmichaud anyway, I'm taking a break for a bit.  Comments welcomed.  Editors are free to improve the draft however they see fit.  It's currently set to publish at 00:01 UTC.
21:32 pmichaud (about 2.5 hours from now)
21:35 mberends Wolfman2000: could you apply your superior styling to the source code bits?
21:35 Wolfman2000 mberends: My "styling" isn't exactly superiour.
21:35 pmurias mberends: http://www.perlfoundation.org/pe​rl6/index.cgi?smop_dependencies might help with installing smop
21:35 Wolfman2000 superior*
21:36 Wolfman2000 But where exactly do you want me to work my magic anyway?
21:36 mberends rule statement { ... etc
21:36 Wolfman2000 I think I know what you mean. Hang on
21:37 Wolfman2000 ...I would, but pmichaud is currently editing the post
21:39 pmichaud looking
21:39 pmichaud it looks right on my screne
21:39 pmichaud *screen
21:40 pmichaud okay, I'm no longer editing on my browser.
21:41 Yaquishael joined #perl6
21:41 Wolfman2000 Even on refresh, it claims you are
21:42 pmichaud okay, just a sec
21:42 pmichaud I have to edit something anyway
21:44 mberends imho the source code styling in http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/15/day-15-pick-your-game/ or http://perl6advent.wordpress.com/​2009/12/17/day-17-making-snowmen/ look nicer
21:44 Wolfman2000 mberends: I figured you meant that
21:44 mberends :)
21:46 pmichaud okay, I'm not editing now (I think)
21:46 pmichaud anyone have content comments?  does it work okay as a final post?
21:46 Wolfman2000 You think wrong. Content is okay
21:46 pmichaud how do I tell wordpress that I'm no longer editing the post?  ;-)
21:47 pmichaud oh, I suppose I could log out.
21:47 mberends logout?
21:47 mberends ;)
21:47 pmichaud okay, I've logged out.
21:47 Wolfman2000 ...my screen refuses to change
21:47 pmichaud Wolfman2000: perhaps you need to log out and in again :-)
21:48 alester joined #perl6
21:49 pmichaud oooh, I like this post:  http://waffle.wootest.net/20​09/12/19/perl-6-feature-ep1/
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22:00 mberends pmichaud: the post is much more serious than most of the previous ones. Is there a way to lighten it up? (I know it's probably hard). One idea could be to showcase some of the more awesome error messages.
22:05 pmichaud pick one :-)
22:05 mberends perhaps convert some of the sentences that contain lists to bullet points, eg paragraph 3 custom operators etc
22:05 pmichaud I prefer lists, especially when it's short as here
22:05 * pmichaud looks for awesome error messages
22:06 * mberends doesn't know the error messages well enough
22:06 pmichaud I was thinking about the ?: -> ?? !!  error
22:06 mberends should be good, yes
22:06 ShaneC1 joined #perl6
22:08 mberends 'Confused' is Not Awesome
22:10 pmichaud updated.
22:11 pmichaud fixing quotes.
22:11 * mberends likes
22:14 mberends pmichaud: s/resolve many of the long-standing problems/finally add long-awaited features/
22:14 pmichaud +2
22:14 pmichaud updated.
22:15 pmichaud have to run for a bit again.. feel free to make further edits
22:15 pmichaud I agree, this one isn't quite as light as some of the earlier ones... I'll keep thinking of ways to improve that
22:16 mberends looks better to me now
22:16 pmichaud thanks for the comments
22:16 * moritz_ likes it
22:16 mberends :)
22:16 pmichaud back in a short while
22:16 pmichaud ah, if moritz++ likes it, then I feel I've at least achieved the minimum bar :)
22:17 pmichaud it might not be a blockbuster ending.... but I was having trouble coming up with anything more blockbuster.  And upon reflection, I really think the grammar is an important feature of Perl 6.
22:18 pmichaud anyway, afk for a short while
22:18 moritz_ I finally had another idea for a 24th posting :-)
22:18 moritz_ "building an awesome language"
22:19 moritz_ that describes how our process works to make error messages, integration of other languages, module loading etc. awesome
22:19 moritz_ well, it's still kind of weak
22:19 moritz_ anway, bed time for me
22:19 moritz_ have a nice localtime everybody
22:19 mberends likewise moritz_
22:23 * mberends edits the post a little, trimming unnecessary extra words
22:33 Tene masak: the following test passes in steme: http://github.com/tene/stem​e/blob/master/t/05-macro.t
22:39 masak Tene: looking
22:40 masak Tene: hm, I don't grok what it does at first reading.
22:42 Tene masak: the debug macro is expanded at compile-time into an 'if', so the argument to debug isn't evaluated if debug-enabled is false.
22:42 sjohnson yo masak
22:42 Tene the ` means "insert the ast for this macro argument"
22:42 Tene afk, errands
22:43 masak sjohnson: y0
22:43 masak Tene: I'm starting to see it now.
22:43 masak Tene: cool. :)
22:44 Psyche^ joined #perl6
22:44 masak pmichaud++ # the advent post
22:45 masak hm... I'm not so good at English... is "these sort of things" the way to write it? sounds strange to me.
22:45 masak I'd have it as "this sort of things" or "these sorts of things".
22:46 * mberends is hacking the words, just saved a bit
22:46 masak mberends++
22:47 mberends it's technically accurate, but awkward in that sentence
22:49 mberends singular throughout works better. saved.
22:50 Tene masak: also spoke with TimToady about spec clarifications needed for P6 macros.
22:50 masak \o/
22:52 masak pmichaud++ # again
22:52 masak it's a very good finish to the Calendar. going out with style! :)
22:53 pmichaud also, if there's one thing that I think is a killer feature of Perl 6, it's the extensible grammar.
22:53 masak aye.
22:53 pmichaud and parsing in general
22:53 pmichaud that, to me, is what will really set Perl 6 apart relative to its contemporaries
22:54 masak *cough* Lisp *cough*
22:54 masak oh. right. contemporaries.
22:54 pmichaud yes, I know Lisp can do that.  But there's a reason nobody uses Lisp.  :-)
22:54 mberends pmichaud: would it be too off topic to show an example of a DSL grammar?
22:55 pmichaud mberends: in the post?
22:55 mberends yes
22:55 pmichaud no, not too off topic at all, I don't think.
22:55 pmichaud I didn't have a DSL in mind at the time :-)
22:55 mberends lolsql
22:55 pmichaud where's the grammar for that?  haven't seen it yet
22:56 mberends jnthn++ posted one somewhere
22:56 mberends or blogged about it
22:56 pmichaud http://github.com/jnthn/lols​ql/blob/master/icanhazsql.p6
22:56 pmichaud it would be good if those were converted to protoregexes
22:57 mberends it's a bit big to add to the post in full
22:57 pmichaud <value> and <statement> would be good candidates for protoregexes there
22:57 pmichaud especially statement
22:57 * pmichaud reworks the grammar quickly
22:59 pmichaud oh, maybe not.  hrm.
23:00 pmichaud not sure it fits with the rest of the post.
23:00 masak if it doesn't fit, leave it as it is.
23:01 pmichaud afk, have to help with dinner
23:01 pmichaud as before, edits to the post are welcomed :-)
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23:07 sepi_ hi
23:07 sepi_ is perl 6 faster than 5
23:07 sepi_ ?
23:09 masak sepi_: perl 6 is not an implementation like perl 5.
23:10 masak sepi_: but to answer your question straight: no. right now, if you want speed above all else, go with perl 5.
23:11 sepi_ ok
23:11 masak 'night, #perl6.
23:12 bryan[c1] joined #perl6
23:12 sepi_ i'm a c/c++  programmer
23:12 racheldaBROWN joined #perl6
23:12 sepi_ but i'm searcging for a scripting language to embed in my c++ apps
23:13 sepi_ everybody say use lua, but i like perl's syntax more than any other scripting languages
23:13 mberends perl 5 is the most suitable and will remain so for at least another year
23:15 sepi_ is there any outsanding app built with perl, for example python has blender in its hand, but what about perl
23:15 sepi_ ?
23:16 Khisanth isn't the answer for speed above all else "assembly"? :)
23:16 Khisanth or maybe stacks of cash
23:16 sepi_ :)
23:17 sepi_ but it's rediciolus to use it
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