Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2009-12-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 Juerd Why does http://planetsix.perl.org/ not link to perl6.org in its sidebar?
00:06 Juerd (Why is the official address not planet.perl6.org?)
00:14 Tene Juerd: the general situation, as far as I've seen it, is that nobody so far has *maintained* an active interest in infrastructure over long periods of time, especially when crossing administrative boundaries.
00:15 Tene So it's probably not an explicit decision, but instead just where it was left byt he last person.
00:17 Tene There's no overall design or plan for Perl 6's web presence, and no single point of contact, so it usually ends up being easier to just reimplement new.
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00:59 colomon Tene patches ng, \o/
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01:02 Tene Yeah, I do that occasionally. ;)
01:02 Tene Got a couple more coming tonight.
01:07 colomon Yay!
01:08 colomon As I said a month or so ago, I have a bad feeling that every day I'm the only ng committer is two days further away the "release" of it gets.  :)
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04:57 diakopter colomon: well...
04:57 diakopter it's the Dec holiday portion of the year
04:58 diakopter people go dark
04:59 diakopter colomon: in other news, sprixel# is enlivened
05:00 diakopter I switched it to use UTF-32 as the internal representation for strings (the codepoint as a CIL UInt32)
05:01 diakopter that makes high character ranges a lot speedier to compile, for a novice like me
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07:16 * diakopter shops for a 1008HA-PU17-BK
07:20 * mberends really likes this eeePC 1000A (hostname meee)
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07:23 mberends no HDD, 2x SSD, and using swappable microSD chips as system drives
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07:31 diakopter ooo
07:31 diakopter but, 320GB hdd in the 1008ha
07:31 diakopter but ok, I see your point; yours is noiseless, no?
07:31 diakopter or does its fan ever run?
07:32 mberends still a quiet fan, that speeds up during make spectest
07:32 diakopter win7 home premium, 2GB ram... I dunno.
07:33 mberends standard 4400mAH battery gives 3-5 hours use
07:34 mberends this one came with Xandros Linux, all the new models are HDD/Windows
07:34 diakopter this one _claims_ 32W/h Polymer battery with 6 hours
07:35 mberends it has passed several unplanned drop tests :)
07:35 mberends an HDD may not have survived those
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09:17 Su-Shee good morning
09:18 colomon \o
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09:22 hejki hmm.. ISDIR from Parrot stat() returns 0 for file, 1 for dir and 2 for slink just like "normal" stat?
09:23 mberends hejki: probably, because it's not worth changing
09:25 hejki ye.. i'll implement :l then.. nowai i'm gonna still use the qx{ls -l}.comb(/^^l/).elems anymore :)
09:25 mberends cool
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09:39 hejki hmm.. it doesn't seem to act that simple :P
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10:06 hejki and there isn't ISLNK-for Parrot stat()? ISDIR does return 1 in both dir and link
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11:10 flip214 hi
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11:11 hejki ohai
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11:28 hejki any ideas how-to implement ~~ :l into rakudo? the ISDIR from Parrot stat() returns 1 for both links and dirs and there doesn't appear to be ISLNK.
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11:32 flip214 Well, is :l defined by using lstat or stat? if the latter, you shouldn't ever get ISLNK.
11:34 hejki is there even lstat() in Parrot?
11:34 hejki dno
11:38 flip214 Well, it should ... I'll be needing that, so please put it there if it isn't yet.
11:39 hejki http://www.parrotcode.org/docs/pmc/pmc/os.html
11:41 hejki nevertheless http://www.parrotcode.org/docs/ops/io.html
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11:51 masak good afternoon, #perl6.
11:52 hejki hiya masak
11:52 hejki i kinda need your confirmation here
11:52 masak hei hejki!
11:52 hejki the OS API document you pasted last night says stat number 3 is ISDEV, nevertheless in my tests it seems to behave exactly like ISLNK
11:53 hejki (i.e. returns 0 for files and dirs, 1 for links)
11:53 masak maybe the document is wrong.
11:53 hejki wonder if the parrot api doc is a bit outdated
11:53 hejki ye
11:53 masak this is outside of my field of expretise, but it sounds like an excellent question for #parrot.
11:53 masak the one on irc.perl.org.
11:53 hejki irc.perl.org ?
11:53 hejki i'm on the one on irc.parrot.org
11:54 masak I don't know if that's the same one.
11:54 masak but I see you on #parrot, so...
11:54 hejki so most likely yes :>
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11:54 masak the server's "real name" is magnet.shadowcat.co.uk.
11:54 BinGOs irc.parrot.org is a cname to irc.perl.org
11:54 hejki i think it'd be faster to look thru parrot sources than waiting for answer :P
11:55 hejki it doesn't seem to be the most active channel
11:55 masak it can be, sometimes.
11:55 hejki ye sure
11:55 masak I'm used to quick-ish response times there.
11:56 hejki i asked my first question over an hour ago.. :>
11:56 masak oh :/
11:58 masak bacek replies :)
12:00 hejki ye.. i'm just not sure how-to parse arrays in parrot :P
12:00 hejki looking into it
12:11 hejki i really need a better way of doing this than compiling rakudo everytime :P
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12:20 hejki hmm.. http://www.parrotcode.org/docs/pmc/array.html am i only one without any code examples on that site? :P
12:21 hejki it seems like there's "placeholders" for it
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12:57 colomon http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2009/1​2/24/exponentials-r-us-seven-computer​-science-game-changers-from-the-2000’s-and-seven-more-to-come/?single_page=true
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12:59 colomon Seems like their point 5 in their game changers for the next ten years is very well suited for Perl 6 -- if we can get to process large amounts of data quickly!
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13:17 masak well, I wouldn't mind seeing Perl 6 have a part in 1, 4, and 6, too. :)
13:22 pnu masak: what, don't you trust Perl 6 to run your car or body, since you're skipping 2 and 3? :-)
13:23 masak and here I was just trying to keep back a little. :)
13:24 masak I refer back to TimToady, who said in his latest YAPC keynote: "Would I board an airplane running Perl? ...probably not." or something to that effect.
13:24 masak :)
13:47 masak interesting. the advent calendar visitor statistics have been following a linear decline of about 100 readers per day since the 21st.
13:47 masak if this keeps up, it'll have 0 readers three or four days from now.
13:49 colomon Hmm.... does that imply that if we want to keep it going in the new year, we ought to get a bridge post up ASAP?
13:50 masak nah. don't think so.
13:50 masak I mean, the advent calendar readers found us somehow, didn't they?
13:51 masak this makes me happy: http://waffle.wootest.net/20​09/12/19/perl-6-feature-ep1/
13:52 masak and this: http://waffle.wootest.net/2009/12/23/perlinq/
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13:57 colomon wow, that's a nice blog post.
13:58 hejki dang this parrot-stuff is overwhelming :P
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14:00 masak "Parrot: we build it so you won't have to." ;)
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14:01 hejki finally got my parrot compile with my S_ISLNK-patches.. now i just need to check out with rakudo whether my optcode definition was correct (and that the macro actually works :))
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14:03 masak JimmyZ! \o/
14:04 hejki huaha.. now i can't compile rakudo anymore :P
14:04 masak why not?
14:04 JimmyZ masak: now you can see who joined #perl6?
14:04 masak JimmyZ: yes, it shows up in my client along with things people say.
14:05 JimmyZ I can see it.
14:05 masak :)
14:05 JimmyZ s/can/can't/
14:05 hejki masak: http://pastie.org/758753
14:05 hejki masak: most likely it's with my parrot opcode definition :P
14:05 JimmyZ I just can see who joined #parrot
14:06 meneldor is "v6" pragma mandatory ?
14:06 hejki i hope not :D
14:06 masak JimmyZ: 奇怪
14:06 masak meneldor: no, but it's good style.
14:07 masak meneldor: sometimes that pragma helps me out when I accidentally type 'perl' instead of 'perl6' :)
14:07 meneldor i see :)
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14:08 JimmyZ yep
14:11 masak hm, I can't build Rakudo either.
14:11 masak I'm getting this error: http://gist.github.com/264688
14:13 masak jnthn: ping
14:21 hejki masak: same with mine
14:22 hejki masak: so it's the upstream git instead of my opcode definition :P
14:22 masak seems that way.
14:22 * hejki is relieved
14:22 masak I know I built Rakudo yesterday, since otherwise I wouldn't have pushed your patch.
14:22 hejki ye
14:22 hejki i built it yday too
14:23 masak oh dang. and since I successfully rebuilt and installed parrot, now my globally installed Rakudo doesn't work. :/
14:23 masak might as well bisect and get this solved ASAP.
14:26 masak the file where the errors occur, src/binder/bind.c, hasn't been touched since 2009-10-29 in master.
14:27 masak it's reasonable to assume, at this point, that the build error stems from updating Parrot.
14:27 masak hejki: did you update Parrot too since yesterday?
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14:38 * masak considers writing a 'Perl 6 in 2010' blog post
14:40 JimmyZ +1
14:40 JimmyZ but rakudo had stopped been developing for two months
14:41 JimmyZ s/been/being
14:41 masak that's an uncharitable way to view it. :)
14:42 masak but yes, work on ng has been less-than-painless.
14:43 JimmyZ many peoples are waiting for rakudo star ;)
14:43 masak maybe it was a case of the "let's do a number of refactors while we're in a branch" syndrome. maybe it was the fact that one or more of Rakudo's key developers were blocked/on vacation/distracted for long periods of time during Nov/Dec...
14:43 masak maybe a combination of those.
14:44 masak I still believe we can make it for the Rakudo Star deadline.
14:44 masak but we're currently eating into our very good bonus time.
14:44 hejki masak: i updated it today
14:44 hejki masak: (+ applied my patches)
14:45 masak hejki: ah. I still don't grok -why- a Parrot update would ruin the Rakudo build, but that seems to be the most likely explanation.
14:45 hejki masak: (after which rakudo didn't compile)
14:45 masak nod.
14:46 hejki parrot has updated within the couple of hours tho
14:46 hejki i think i'll checkout a fresh tree and try again
14:47 masak let me know how that goes.
14:47 hejki ye
14:49 hejki got a bunch of "ERROR: ld.so: object 'libfakeroot.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored." error msg, it compiled tho :)
14:50 masak people on #parrot might know whether that's a serious error or not.
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15:07 hejki heh.. the channel remains so silent, i bet they've noticed something gone borked and are all coding :)
15:08 masak :)
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15:27 pugs_svn r29401 | ruoso++ | [smop] remove the refactoring notice from the README
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16:02 masak over at #parrot, we've located the Rakudo build problem to some extent.
16:03 masak it is introduced somewhere between Parrot's r43076 (PARROT_REVISION) and r43275.
16:08 colomon It was a change in Parrot that did it?
16:08 colomon s/did it/caused the problem/
16:09 masak yes, but I don't see how.
16:09 masak I mean, what change in Parrot would make bind.c not compile anym...
16:09 masak ...oh.
16:10 masak perhaps there were some changes in how Parrot does binding.
16:10 masak I mean, bind.c does most things on its own nowadays, but perhaps not all of it.
16:10 masak or things may have just changed names a little in Parrot.
16:12 masak anyway, I don't have the -fu to debug it. and it's not a critical issue -- I'll just have to remember not to update my Parrot for a while.
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16:22 ash_ so whats wrong with rakudo right now? it won't build with trunk parrot?
16:24 masak ash_: hejki and I had problems for a while because we were using a too recent Parrot.
16:25 ash_ thats no good, is it an intended change in parrot? or an accidental change in parrot?
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16:26 eric256 perl6: say 1..3
16:26 hejki rakudo: (1..3).say
16:26 p6eval elf 29401, pugs, rakudo 77bf8c: 123␤
16:26 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: 123␤
16:28 ash_ ng: (1...3).say
16:28 p6eval ng 5e19f6: 123␤
16:28 ash_ yay eval bots
16:29 eric256 hehe yea
16:29 eric256 just felt like poking one for fun
16:29 eric256 rakudo: ( (1..2) X (3..4)).say
16:29 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: 13142324␤
16:30 eric256 that may still be my favorite new operator
16:30 eric256 lol
16:30 ash_ zip? isn't that a zip?
16:33 hejki no
16:33 hejki Z is zip
16:33 hejki X is cross
16:33 ash_ ah, got ya, i haven't used many of those operators yet
16:33 hejki rakudo: ((1..2)Z(3..4)).say
16:33 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: 1324␤
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16:38 hejki eric256: also iirc cross and zip are available via a CPAN module for perl5 as well
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16:42 eric256 yea probably, just functions you always end up looking for or rewriting, so having them builtin will be sweet
16:43 eric256 rakudo: ( (1..4).map({ $_ X ('a'..'d')) ).say
16:43 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ") ).say"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
16:43 eric256 rakudo: ( (1..4).map({ $_ X ('a'..'d') ).say
16:43 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: Unable to parse block; couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ").say"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
16:43 eric256 oh i'm stupid
16:43 eric256 lol
16:44 eric256 rakudo: ( (1..4).map({ $_ X ('a'..'d')} ).say
16:44 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: Syntax error at line 2, near "( (1..4).m"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
16:44 arnsholt Zip is in List::MoreUtils
16:44 * eric256 fires up his local rakudo instead of debuggin in chat
16:44 eric256 lol
16:51 colomon rakudo: ( (1..4).map({ $_ X ('a'..'d')} )).say
16:51 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: 1a1b1c1d2a2b2c2d3a3b3c3d4a4b4c4d␤
16:51 colomon rakudo say (1..4) X ('a'..'d');
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16:52 colomon rakudo: say (1..4) X ('a'..'d');
16:52 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: 1a1b1c1d2a2b2c2d3a3b3c3d4a4b4c4d␤
16:57 hejki if i'm gonna try implementing {open,close,read}dir, i guess src/builtins/io.pir is the right place?
17:00 ash_ hejki: are you working in Master or ng?
17:02 hejki Master
17:04 ash_ seems right then
17:06 ash_ there or maybe in the src/setting/IO.pm
17:10 ash_ hejki: if you got them working in ng that would be really useful too, its source is organized differently and takes a little bit different approach than the Master branch, its supposed to replace master in the near future too, its kind of a refactor of rakudo
17:11 hejki ok
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19:31 pugs_svn r29402 | pmurias++ | update to newest JavaScript::XS
19:31 pugs_svn r29403 | pmurias++ | make sure unicode is yamlified correctly
19:32 pugs_svn r29404 | pmurias++ | [mildew] no longer work around the way STD handled self on my box
19:32 pmurias mberends: i fixed the bug that stopped you from building mildew
19:33 pmurias mberends: i turned out gimme5 messed up unicode and the bug was only visible on my box and mildew evolved to depend on it
19:34 mberends pmurias: good detective work!
19:35 mberends I'll update immediately :-)
19:36 ash_ how's vill coming along?
19:37 mberends ash_: slow progress. The yaml loader was unverified, but the roundtrip tester is growing steadily. That needs to be complete before climbing in to the code generator.
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19:43 mberends (in doing this I involuntarily implemented a small scale yaml serializer in C as well)
19:44 pmurias mberends: why didn't you use libyaml?
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19:46 ash_ out of curiosity, why do you need a yaml parser at this phase?
19:46 mberends pmurias: I tried every library possible from http://yaml.org and each one somehow did not deliver the required results
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19:47 pmurias mberends: what's the problem with them?
19:48 mberends ash_: a very good question. the 'viv' parser outputs AST in YAML format. Sprixel has a neat trick to use another format, but I did not understand it well enough at the time.
19:49 ash_ ah, i didn't know viv returned the ast as YAML, interesting
19:49 mberends pmurias: ISTR that libyaml did not process the anchors and aliases that viv emits correctly
19:50 cognominal viv?
19:50 mberends viv is a parser for STD.pm grammar, running in Perl 5
19:51 cognominal thx
19:51 pmurias viv is a frontend for the STD.pm grammar
19:52 mberends see http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/
19:52 ash_ so, is viv using like yaml 1.2? or are the libraries not compliant with the spec?
19:52 jjore omewhere
19:54 mberends ash_: viv uses both YAML::XS and YAML::Syck, because, er, I dunno, but I tried to refactor that recently and got a bloody nose
19:55 pmurias mberends: does mildew build now?
19:56 mberends running make..
19:56 ash_ good luck mberends
19:57 ash_ i don't know much about the yaml spec, only done really basic things with it
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19:57 mberends thanks, yaml looks deceptively simple but is a bit tricky to implement
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19:58 mberends pmurias: are these messages ok?  Variable $LexicalPrelude is not predeclared at CORE/int.pm line 48: etc etc
20:00 mberends yo masak
20:00 masak y0
20:00 * masak is all swum out
20:01 pmurias mberends: yes
20:03 mberends pmurias: still making, similar messages on CORE/Signature.pm now
20:04 pmurias mberends: expect a load of those
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20:09 masak rakudo: say 4 !! 5
20:09 p6eval rakudo 77bf8c: 4␤
20:09 masak std: say 4 !! 5
20:09 p6eval std 29401: [31m===[0mSORRY![31m===[0m␤Ternary !! seems to be missing its ?? at /tmp/e5jnNWL9Xk line 1:␤------> [32msay 4 [33m⏏[31m!! 5[0m␤    expecting any of:␤        infix stopper␤    standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤
20:09 * masak submits rakudobug
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20:12 mberends :-D perl mildew -e 'say "alive!"' # says alive!
20:12 masak \o/
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20:17 mberends mildew 'make test' issues lots of noise, but also ........ok quite regularly :-)
20:17 * colomon has just found he no longer remembers the all the various Perl 6 interpreter / compiler projects underway.  (If he ever actually knew them...)
20:20 pmurias mberends: noise?
20:21 mberends pmurias: not audible noise literally, but warning and error messages
20:21 mberends I'll do a nopaste at the end
20:21 rjbs Do we have a factoid bot in here?
20:22 rjbs One I could ask about, say, mildew? :)
20:22 colomon pointme: mildew
20:22 colomon point: mildew
20:22 masak ENOPOINTME
20:22 mdxi i googled 'perl6 mildew' and got somethinig which seems accurate enough
20:22 pmurias mberends: two failures are to be expected
20:22 colomon masak: pointme was right, right?
20:23 masak yes.
20:23 mberends moritz_++ knows everything, but his bot fingers are operated by a human ;)
20:23 masak :)
20:31 mberends mildew test summary: Files=57, Tests=195, 836 wallclock secs ( 0.56 usr  0.17 sys + 781.27 cusr 23.98 csys = 805.98 CPU)
20:31 lisppaste3 mberends32 pasted "mildew 'make test' output for pmurias++" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/92738
20:31 pugs_svn r29405 | pmurias++ | [mildew] unbreak SDL using example
20:32 ruoso pmurias, I was thinking... the integration with p5 doesn't need to take the smop code inside it
20:32 ruoso that's just making it harder
20:32 ruoso and provides few benefits
20:33 ruoso it's probably better to simply link to smop externally
20:33 pmurias not entangling with the perl5 build process is definitly a good idea
20:34 ruoso everytime I start looking at the p5 build process I give up ;)
20:34 pmurias i guess you are not the only one
20:36 pmurias mberends: you need Coro and to upgrade MooseX::Declare (or so other Moose thing)
20:36 mberends pmurias: thanks, will do and will repeat the tests
20:38 pugs_svn r29406 | pmurias++ | [mildew] remove obsolete test
20:38 pugs_svn r29407 | pmurias++ | [mildew] tests which fail due STD bugs shouldn't be included in make
20:38 pugs_svn r29407 | test
20:39 pmurias ruoso: i think all the modifications to p5 we will need to do is have it set the RI on SV*
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21:03 ash_ colomon: do you know if anyone's looked at my patch i emailed to the perl bug tracker? issue #71554
21:05 colomon ash_: I haven't seen any sign of it, but it's certainly possible I missed it.
21:05 colomon I'm sure it hasn't been checked into github yet.
21:06 ash_ yeah, i didn't see it in github yet
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21:06 ash_ just curious if it was something related to the patch or if it was just people have been busy
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21:07 colomon My guess is the people who know what to make of it are busy.
21:08 colomon ie no checkins at all from jnthn or pmichaud in that time, as far as I know...
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21:15 ruoso pmurias, we also need to implement the SMOP p5 interpreter and SV RI
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21:23 pmurias ruoso: that doesn't have to bundled with the perl5 code
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21:28 pmurias mberends: if you want you could try getting the js backend to work too, you need to install JavaScript::V8 from CPAN for that
21:29 mberends pmurias: sure thing. re-running test with Coro and newer MooseX::Declare atm
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21:38 * ruoso later &
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22:18 mberends pmurias: mildew all PASS (55 files, 229 tests) :-)
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22:21 Tene pmichaud: ping.  I need to consult with you about rakudo's use of HLL interop spec.
22:25 eiro 5~5~
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22:33 pugs_svn r29408 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71462: Smartmatch a type yields Int, not Bool
22:33 pugs_svn r29409 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71460: Null PMC access
22:33 pugs_svn r29410 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71268: NPMCA from accessing result of "for ^1 {}"
22:33 pugs_svn r29411 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71064: hash access broken by postcircumfix:<{ }>
22:33 pugs_svn r29412 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71062: dies calling grammar named "Integer"
22:33 pugs_svn r29413 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71044: an Int variable should not accept Mu
22:34 pugs_svn r29414 | kyle++ | [t/spec] Test for RT 71022: infinite loop
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23:33 pugs_svn r29415 | unobe++ | Moved list/array-specific .perl tests to separate file
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