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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 00:19 | xenoterracide left #perl6 | |
| 00:22 | cognominal | how can I do opendir/readdir in rakudo? |
| 00:29 | colomon | cognominal: as far as I know the only current way is just to run ls and capture the results. |
| 00:30 | but I may be out of the loop on this. | |
| 00:30 | cognominal | ok, fine by me. |
| 00:40 | ash_ | t/spec/S16-filehandles/dir.t has some uses of that i think, i'd referrer to those |
| 00:40 | although they are not being run by rakudo as part of their tests, so they may or maynot work | |
| 00:43 | pugs_svn | r29546 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement :: in patterns. _properly_. |
| 01:00 | Guest48051 joined #perl6 | |
| 01:03 | diakopter | .oO( the ! modifier to : is compile-time for sprixel ) |
| 01:06 | pugs_svn | r29547 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement : in patterns (modifier to repetition quantifiers or other alternations) |
| 01:08 | justatheory joined #perl6 | |
| 01:19 | Khisanth joined #perl6 | |
| 01:35 | pugs_svn | r29548 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement <commit>. |
| 01:35 | r29548 | implement character_class.toString(). | |
| 01:35 | r29548 | refactor sequence and alternation combinators to build breadth-first | |
| 01:35 | r29548 | instead of depth-first instructions. | |
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| 01:55 | pugs_svn | r29549 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement <.prior> |
| 01:59 | r29550 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implement <!> (never match anything) | |
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| 02:58 | sjohnson | hi |
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| 03:29 | Daenyth joined #perl6 | |
| 03:29 | Daenyth | Hiya all |
| 03:31 | I was wondering, for the 2009-12 release of rakudo, is parrot 1.8.0 enough? I'm (finally) updating the arch package for it, and it says that parrot is at r0 | |
| 03:33 | I'm not sure how to point the configure script to the right place | |
| 03:37 | or rather, I can see the flag, but I'm not sure where to point it :) | |
| 03:38 | rachelBROWN joined #perl6 | |
| 03:44 | diakopter | Daenyth: see http://www.rakudo.org/node/61 |
| 03:45 | TimToady: does <alpha> mean the same as Unicode Letter? | |
| 03:46 | (or Perl :alpha:) | |
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| 03:55 | Daenyth | ok |
| 03:59 | nihiliad joined #perl6 | |
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| 04:09 | TimToady | diakopter: includes _ |
| 04:09 | Daenyth left #perl6 | |
| 04:13 | diakopter | TimToady: so <alpha> means Unicode Letter or _ |
| 04:13 | I mean, | |
| 04:13 | sigh. | |
| 04:14 | Unicode Letter plus _ | |
| 04:14 | TimToady | either is a valid way to say it |
| 04:14 | diakopter | oky doky |
| 04:17 | * diakopter | steals Unicode Properties & Blocks from http://xregexp.com/plugins/xregexp-unicode.js |
| 04:19 | TimToady | though it's possible we might decide that one one the other way, and leave alpha with the pure unicode definition |
| 04:19 | diakopter | TimToady: I implemented nearly all of the backtracking control terms & operators |
| 04:19 | TimToady | since there's idfirst for the other, probably |
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| 04:26 | diakopter | ok, |
| 04:27 | TimToady | currently STD assumes it includes _ |
| 04:29 | diakopter | /\\G[_[:alpha:]]/ |
| 04:32 | TimToady: should I use the Unicode 5.2 database? | |
| 04:33 | TimToady | why not use the latest? |
| 04:34 | diakopter | heh |
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| 04:35 | vamped | what about this: is <.> the same as <graph> ? |
| 04:36 | to me "graphical character" means the same as grapheme | |
| 04:41 | TimToady | the Unicode consortium tends to use longer names for things than we do :) |
| 04:42 | but I'm not sure that <graph> is well defined | |
| 04:42 | might be a hangover from POSIX | |
| 04:42 | which usually gives me a hangover | |
| 04:43 | so it's not the same as what we call a grapheme | |
| 04:44 | since "non-printables" are also considered graphemes | |
| 04:45 | vamped | I wasn't aware of that, but it makes sense |
| 04:45 | TimToady | basically, a grapheme to Perl is just a base codepoint followed by 0 or more combining codepoints |
| 04:45 | vamped | so maybe <graph> could be viewed as a visible <.> ? |
| 04:46 | TimToady | I'd go with whatever unicode concept is closest to the POSIX concept, if unicode has such |
| 04:49 | vamped | thanks. that helps. |
| 04:51 | diakopter | hmm. how far down the Unicode vortex do I want to descend |
| 04:54 | vamped | lol @ "The Unicode codespace is divided into seventeen planes, each comprising 65,536 code points or 256 rows of 256 code points:" |
| 04:56 | "Graphic characters are characters defined by Unicode to have a particular semantic, and either have a visible glyph shape or represent a visible space" | |
| 04:56 | samlh joined #perl6 | |
| 04:57 | vamped | and POSIX defines "graph" as "visible characters". I think we have a conversion. |
| 04:58 | thinking more ... unless a space is not considered "visible" | |
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| 05:05 | TimToady | well, it's always seemed like a relatively useless concept to me |
| 05:06 | historically speaking, mostly came down to "what won't drive my line printer crazy and spew a box of paper" | |
| 05:06 | vamped | I think that Unicode is contradictory to the past perl concept that print = graph + space. |
| 05:06 | so something might have to change | |
| 05:07 | TimToady | Perl has historically ignored most of what the standards bodies have to say :) |
| 05:07 | but if Unicode claims a particular name, we should probably try to go with it | |
| 05:09 | vamped | agreed. but then <print> and <graph> will be the same? |
| 05:09 | TimToady | certainly we should be ignoring POSIX completely now in this regard |
| 05:09 | diakopter | I'm deciding to defer libicu integration (using v8-juice + libv8) to another day. Preferably a day when I can use C++. |
| 05:10 | TimToady | someone should translate the mktables.pl program of Perl 5 to spit out Perl 6 code instead. |
| 05:10 | oh, no .pl | |
| 05:11 | diakopter | but |
| 05:13 | how 'bout if mktables expactorated JavaScript instead | |
| 05:15 | TimToady | it doesn't have to be either/or |
| 05:15 | diakopter | looking at http://github.com/github/perl/[…]/unicore/mktables |
| 05:16 | TimToady | and some implementations may go the minimalistic route to fit onto a cellphone |
| 05:17 | or into a mitochondrian repair robot | |
| 05:21 | and in theory, NFG is just integer arrays, and Perl 6 is supposed to do those fast | |
| 05:22 | and the killer is that anything like icu is unlikely to implement NFG anyway | |
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| 05:38 | diakopter | ok. I read pdd28 (again) and understood it for the first time |
| 05:38 | where is NFG in the Synopses | |
| 05:43 | ok, I just read the Unicode-in-NFG-formation thread | |
| 05:45 | seems to me the temporary-composed-codepoints should be process-wide instead of per-string | |
| 05:48 | bed& | |
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| 07:57 | Mantis | do subroutine definitions have to go before the invocation in the source |
| 07:57 | or can they go at the bottom | |
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| 09:18 | mryan | sure is quite around here... |
| 09:18 | s/quite/quiet/ | |
| 09:19 | perl6: "Hello World".say | |
| 09:19 | p6eval | elf 29550, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: Hello World |
| 09:20 | hejki | perl6: "good (GNT) morning, #perl6".say |
| 09:20 | p6eval | elf 29550, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: good (GNT) morning, #perl6 |
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| 10:04 | Su-Shee joined #perl6 | |
| 10:04 | Su-Shee | good morning |
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| 10:15 | saschi | moin |
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| 10:33 | Su-Shee | .oO(tax filing program in perl 6..) |
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| 13:49 | sharno | hi |
| 13:49 | I'm new to programming languages | |
| 13:49 | is it easy to start with perl 6 ? | |
| 13:50 | frettled | I think we'd be slightly less than perfectly honest if we said "yes" at this point in time. |
| 13:51 | soupdragon | hehe you can learn Oz from the CTM book or Scheme from little schemer |
| 13:52 | sharno | is python easier to learn? |
| 13:52 | Su-Shee | sharno: what's your background? |
| 13:53 | sharno | I know very little in programming |
| 13:53 | just some of visual basic | |
| 13:54 | Su-Shee | sharno: yes. what's your background? are you a student or do you come from social science..? |
| 13:54 | sharno | I'm student in medical colledge |
| 13:55 | Su-Shee | and what do you want to program? |
| 13:55 | sharno | I'm just learning it as a hobby not for my work |
| 13:56 | Su-Shee | then start with the language which you think is nice or speaks to you. really doesn't matter. take what you like. |
| 13:56 | sharno | mmmmmmmmmmmm |
| 13:56 | frettled | That's not very helpful ;) |
| 13:56 | sharno | thanks |
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| 13:56 | Su-Shee | nowadays, they all have nice books. |
| 13:57 | sharno | I saw these books "..........for Dummies" |
| 13:57 | Su-Shee | frettled: of course it is. there is no "best language" if you want to start to program for the fun of it. so he can take whatever he fancies or his buddies use or... |
| 13:57 | sharno: "don't" ;) | |
| 13:57 | frettled | Su-Shee: no, but if you don't really have a clue where to start, a _few_ pointers is better. |
| 13:58 | Su-Shee | frettled: hence me saying "what you think is nice" or "what speaks to you". if python looks nice to him, he should go for it. |
| 13:58 | sharno | like what? |
| 13:58 | soupdragon | I wouldn't recommend to read any books for dummies |
| 13:59 | sharno | why? |
| 13:59 | frettled | sharno: Depending on your energy and time, I'd suggest looking at two or three different languages. You will find decent beginners' books on e.g. Java, Perl (5), Python and Ruby. All of these have free (as in beer _and_ freedom) programming tools. Your choice _will_ influence on how you do your programming later on. |
| 13:59 | Su-Shee | because they're not really well done for beginners despite what the title says. |
| 14:00 | frettled | Su-Shee: if you don't know what programming languages are out there, then that might not help :) |
| 14:00 | Su-Shee | frettled: you are really recommending _Java_ to someone who wants to take up programming as a _hobby_? :) |
| 14:00 | frettled | Su-Shee: yes. |
| 14:00 | soupdragon | there are a lot of programming languages frettled |
| 14:00 | Su-Shee | poor fellow. |
| 14:00 | frettled | soupdragon: exactly |
| 14:00 | sharno | I'm thinking about perl and python |
| 14:00 | frettled | Nah, Java is useful in its own ways. |
| 14:00 | sharno: try both. | |
| 14:00 | sharno | but can't decide |
| 14:00 | soupdragon | I wonder why a beginner will graviate towards stuff like python today |
| 14:01 | Su-Shee | sharno: they both have a nice book "learning perl/python" from O'reilly. |
| 14:01 | soupdragon: why not? | |
| 14:01 | soupdragon | rather than Oz or scheme or something like that |
| 14:02 | Su-Shee | soupdragon: I don't even know what Oz is. |
| 14:02 | soupdragon | probably just because it's new-ish and pop so there's all this advocacy |
| 14:02 | sharno | I didn't hear about Oz or scheme before |
| 14:02 | frettled | soupdragon: Oz is perhaps a bit too exotic. Scheme might be nice, it certainly used to be a decade or two ago, but I don't know how well it's developed. |
| 14:02 | soupdragon | how can it be too exotic? |
| 14:02 | Su-Shee | sharno: take python or perl, you'll be fine with it. |
| 14:02 | sharno | thanks su-shee :D |
| 14:02 | Su-Shee | sharno: later on you can learn all other programming languages. |
| 14:02 | sharno | I'll try perl |
| 14:03 | frettled | soupdragon: it might not have good beginners' guides, it might not have the programming frameworks to get started on your platform of choice, etc. |
| 14:03 | sharno | first |
| 14:03 | Su-Shee | sharno: --> #perl |
| 14:03 | soupdragon | frettled no I don't really agree with that at all |
| 14:03 | Su-Shee | sharno: http://learn.perl.org/library/beginning_perl/ |
| 14:04 | sharno | thanks :D |
| 14:04 | frettled | soupdragon: nevermind :) |
| 14:04 | sharno | it will be very useful as a beginning for me |
| 14:04 | :D | |
| 14:04 | what about perl 6 ?? | |
| 14:05 | is it hard or because it's still in development | |
| 14:05 | ? | |
| 14:05 | frettled | It's not very hard, I think. |
| 14:05 | Su-Shee | sharno: no documentation for your needs available, for starters. |
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| 14:05 | Su-Shee | sharno: if you come from perl 5, perl 6 is relatively easy to take up. |
| 14:05 | sharno | aha |
| 14:06 | frettled | Some people here _are_ working on a new Perl 6 book, which certainly will help a lot. |
| 14:06 | Su-Shee | yeah it'll be a good book, but probably not for "I'm new to programming" |
| 14:06 | sharno | I've to go now |
| 14:07 | thanks again very much | |
| 14:07 | frettled | sharno: there are some tutorials and stuff here, though: http://github.com/perlpilot/perl6-docs |
| 14:07 | see also the Documentation section on perl6.org | |
| 14:07 | sharno: good luck | |
| 14:08 | soupdragon | actually I have no idea what 'programming frameworks' are |
| 14:08 | so I might be too hasty to disagree on this | |
| 14:17 | sjohnson | hi |
| 14:17 | haven't seen masak in a while | |
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| 14:56 | colomon | sjohnson: I believe masak reported a couple of bugs this week. |
| 14:58 | sjohnson | o |
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| 15:41 | pugs_svn | r29551 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] implemented some of the default pattern methods. |
| 15:41 | r29551 | implemented a ranges() emitter (naively supports 0000-FFFF only; will have to suffice until libicu is integrated, which will provide quick generation from the real Unicode 5.2ff tables. | |
| 15:41 | r29551 | implemented xor() combinator, a deterministic (non-backtracking) alternation among (for now) deterministic choice patterns. useful for composing exclusive match checks, such as multiple codepoint ranges (so backtracking information is not stored). | |
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| 16:57 | sundar | Hi.. I'm trying to get Perl 6 up and running on my Ubuntu. I've checked out Parrot, but now I'm unable to find the tutorial which instructed how to get rakudo within it in the languages/ folder. Do I just checkout rakudo under the languages/ folder? |
| 16:58 | colomon | You can certainly do it that way. |
| 16:59 | I think most of us who aren't parrot developers checkout rakudo by itself, and have it build parrot for us. | |
| 16:59 | sundar | Yeah, that seems the most commonly suggested way, but I'm planning to develop a language under parrot, so thought this would be a better way to do it. |
| 16:59 | colomon | sure, that makes sense. |
| 16:59 | (what language?) | |
| 17:03 | I think you need to pass Rakudo's Configure.pl the --parrot-config= option to tell it where to find parrot. | |
| 17:03 | sundar | Nothing fancy, a dynamic language coded in my native language instead of English. Doing it mostly for the learning experience. |
| 17:03 | colomon | ah, cool. |
| 17:04 | sundar | Oh yeah, thanks for reminding, would have missed it. |
| 17:04 | colomon | (If you can't guess from the "I think", I always have Rakudo build parrot for me. :) ) |
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| 17:05 | sundar | :) Ok... I'll try things out, should probably work. |
| 17:08 | slavik | sundar: s/<local official language>/english/ ??? |
| 17:08 | :P | |
| 17:09 | hmm, there's an idea, localize keywords ... | |
| 17:09 | or translate | |
| 17:09 | sundar | where is that substitution run on? I don't get it actually.. |
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| 17:10 | slavik | sundar, think of it this way: the only thing that make a programming language "english" are the keywords |
| 17:10 | since function names can be in other languages and parsers don't know enough to care | |
| 17:10 | but what is keywords were translated/localized | |
| 17:11 | sundar | yeah, technically I need to write only a lexer |
| 17:11 | slavik | I mean, when you add an if statement to your language, you're basically just translating 'if' |
| 17:11 | same for while, switch, token, and other keywords | |
| 17:12 | sundar | in our language however, the sentence structure is different from English, so if we just replace if() with <local_lang_if>() it sounds awkward if you read out the code. |
| 17:12 | slavik | sundar: like if you wanted to do "int i = 5;", the only real thing you need to change is 'int' since rakudo/parrot won't care about the label |
| 17:12 | sundar | yeah, I understand it. |
| 17:12 | slavik | sundar: in Perl6, you can do: { code } if (condition); |
| 17:13 | sundar: what language is that? I know India has like 22 official languages | |
| 17:13 | according to wikipedia at least | |
| 17:13 | sundar | It's Tamil |
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| 17:14 | sundar | {code} if condition; won't be good enough either. if(condition) {something} in our language is of the structure "(condition) implies {something}" |
| 17:14 | slavik | so in Tamil, you can say "if this do that" ? |
| 17:14 | I see | |
| 17:15 | then that's tricky ... | |
| 17:15 | so there is no word for 'if'? | |
| 17:15 | hmm | |
| 17:16 | what about the 'else' ? | |
| 17:16 | sundar | else has a direct corresponding word. |
| 17:16 | slavik | like: (condition) implies {code} otherwise {other code} |
| 17:16 | so that is fine, too? | |
| 17:16 | sundar | yeah.. |
| 17:16 | slavik | sundar: do you know the shorthand for C's if? it's in Perl (should be in Perl6 as well) |
| 17:17 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%3F: | |
| 17:17 | condition ? value if true : value if false | |
| 17:17 | just substitute ? and : for proper words/terms | |
| 17:18 | sundar | yes, ternary would read good (but really, there's nothing to 'read' there :) ), but it won't scale for large pieces of code in true part or false part isn't it? |
| 17:18 | colomon | slavik: in Perl 6 it is ?? and !! instead of ? and :. |
| 17:18 | slavik | colomon: thanks :) I am not so good with Perl6 terms yet :( |
| 17:19 | sundar: so then you want to change the structure of what it looks like | |
| 17:20 | sundar: give me two Tamil characters | |
| 17:20 | colomon | slavik: it's just one of those weird little changes, I believe so that ? and : could be used more readily for other things. |
| 17:21 | slavik | fair enough |
| 17:21 | colomon: not against it ;) | |
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| 17:22 | sundar | எ, இ Why? |
| 17:22 | Can you see them properly? Here I am able to.. | |
| 17:22 | slavik | sundar: pidgin supports unicode ;) |
| 17:22 | also, give me a word for 'my' | |
| 17:22 | sundar | Ok, Empathy does too apparently :) |
| 17:23 | எனது | |
| 17:23 | slavik | and the word for 'implies' |
| 17:24 | and print | |
| 17:24 | or rather say | |
| 17:24 | sundar | implies => எனில் |
| 17:24 | say => சொல் | |
| 17:25 | there's another thing here, the 'say' should come _after_ the text to be meaningful.. :) | |
| 17:25 | slavik | and else |
| 17:25 | soupdragon | what is this great script |
| 17:26 | slavik | hmm, I just realized something ... georgian looks similar to this |
| 17:26 | also wavy type stuff | |
| 17:27 | sundar | else => அன்றேல் |
| 17:27 | elsif would be "அன்றி (condition) எனில்" | |
| 17:28 | slavik | http://paste.lisp.org/+2069 |
| 17:29 | bot didn't send the pastebin url | |
| 17:29 | sundar: but would and if-else look like that? | |
| 17:29 | sundar | slavik: to me, georgian looks like some other languages in India, not Tamil.. and also looks the alphabets are very simple, in tamil they're quite complicated. but I can see that they might look similar to others.. |
| 17:30 | wow, yes, that reads very meaningful. | |
| 17:31 | the only issue is introducing elsif also here. | |
| 17:31 | soupdragon | what if you just do s/else/அன்றேல்/ |
| 17:31 | write a big list of substitiutions and then you can just program like it's perl or whatever | |
| 17:31 | oh well it would realyl be the other way around | |
| 17:33 | sundar | soupdragon: we discussed that, the issue is for many other things the 'sentence structure' changes.. like if (condition) becomes "(condition) எனில்", so simple substitution afaic won't work |
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| 17:40 | slavik | basically, it comes down to localizing the keywords and possible structures |
| 17:41 | sundar | slavik: spot on.. if it was the keywords alone, s/// would do the trick, with structure modifications I'm not sure how much effort this would take. |
| 17:43 | mostly though, the structure modifications I can think of are very similar, with keyword <something> becoming <something> keyword: while (condition) becomes "(condition) இருக்கையில்". | |
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| 17:45 | slavik | I think a modified gettext system could ahndle this, or whatever gnu has for localizations that create .po files |
| 17:45 | that way I could write Perl6 code in english (or russian) and sundar could open it in Tamil | |
| 17:46 | or even in original and then tell the code editor (that would have to be aware of this) to convert it to other localizations | |
| 17:46 | hmm | |
| 17:46 | I think we got something here ^^ | |
| 17:46 | sundar | Wow, that is a great idea, I never thought of it in reverse (from English to Tamil or whatever).. might help many understand code easier, esp. those not very comfortable with English. |
| 17:46 | slavik | sundar: although come to think of it, you don't really need to change '??' and '!!' |
| 17:47 | since they are just symbols, but whatever would make it easier | |
| 17:47 | hmm, who do we write to? | |
| 17:48 | sundar | slavik: yeah, we can ?? and !! itself, but then it won't read 'natural' anymore.. symbols are mostly harder to read than words. |
| 17:48 | *we can use | |
| 17:48 | slavik | sundar: to be fair, symbols need to convey meaning ;) which is what words do |
| 17:49 | sundar: to someone who only speaks/knows tamil, are ! and ? completely foreign chars? | |
| 17:50 | sundar | No not really.. we use them a lot, and anyway programmers, tamil or not, would be very familiar with them. |
| 17:50 | slavik | sundar: then I would say to have then understand the meaning :P |
| 17:50 | although if structures of operations are localized, then it doesn't really matter | |
| 17:51 | sundar | yeah, people _can_ understand the meaning, but the same holds for Perl too, and still we have 'if' constructs.. isn't it? :) |
| 17:52 | slavik | well, if is not exactly ?? !! ;) |
| 17:52 | sundar | slavik: yes, localizing structures is a great idea, I'm looking at gettext PO files now.. |
| 17:52 | slavik | but in any case, if structure for 'if' can be localized, then it doesn't matter |
| 17:52 | sundar: gettext won't support this, but this is an idea | |
| 17:53 | so there would still need to be a universal way to denote the structures. | |
| 17:53 | sundar | slavik: why wouldn't it? |
| 17:53 | slavik | sundar: because it simply can't, it works for strings, not for language structures ;) |
| 17:54 | if you were to organize perl's structures it would be a hash: %structures{'if'} = 'some structure'; | |
| 17:55 | what we would like to do is something like: %structure{'if'}{'tamil'} = 'tamil if structure' | |
| 17:55 | this would be better doable with Perl6's grammars | |
| 17:55 | since you can define a grammar with tokens and redefine it | |
| 17:56 | and Perl6 is supposed to come with the Perl6 Grammar, so all you would need to do is create copies and redefine them | |
| 17:56 | sundar | slavik: ah ok, I think I mostly understand now.. |
| 17:56 | slavik | but then you code editor would need to be in Perl6 to be able to understand it all |
| 17:56 | we want to go from a 1D array of structures to 2D array | |
| 17:57 | make sense? | |
| 17:57 | sundar | or we can redefine the 1D array when we say 'use Tamil' perhaps? |
| 17:58 | slavik | sundar: that's where the second dimension comes in, to make it easier |
| 17:58 | so that it is %structures{$locale}{$type_of_structure} | |
| 17:58 | but I am probably using structure incorrectly | |
| 17:59 | sundar | but changing to 2D would necessitate changing the current Perl6 Grammar, isn't it? |
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| 18:02 | slavik | no |
| 18:03 | the 2D 'hash' is for storing the pieces of the grammar | |
| 18:04 | sundar | slavik: Ok, so you're talking about storing our own version of the Grammar, not about changing the STD.pm, is it? |
| 18:04 | our own version derived from STD.pm, malleable to localization.. | |
| 18:04 | slavik | yes |
| 18:06 | sundar | Hmmm.. Wouldn't that be redundant compared to overriding the required parts of STD.pm alone (I'm assuming this is possible) ? |
| 18:07 | slavik | well, somewhere in STD.pm, there should be something like the following: |
| 18:07 | Grammer Perl6 { | |
| 18:07 | bah | |
| 18:08 | anyway: grammar Perl6 { ... token if { 'if' <condition> <block> } .... }; | |
| 18:08 | that would be changed to: grammar Perl6 { ... token if { <condition> எனில் <block> } .... }; | |
| 18:09 | sundar | yeah, this is the kind of overriding I was referring to.. What is the advantage of the 2D array method over this one? |
| 18:10 | slavik | well, instead of changing what is there, we simple create another instance |
| 18:11 | like: my %grammars{'default'} = grammar Perl6 {}; my %grammar{$locale} = grammar Perl6_$locale {}; where Perl6_$locale inherits from Perl6 and overrides the needed things. | |
| 18:12 | sundar | Ok, I see your idea and my idea are mostly convergent, differing only in minor details.. :) and I can see yours is better suited to extension to other languages.. |
| 18:13 | slavik | but then you need to be able to tell what locale/language the code is in |
| 18:15 | sundar | is it possible to change the grammar used for reading the code with a use statement? like "use lang 'Tamil'" perhaps.. |
| 18:16 | but then, it's sort of circular, the interpreter must know the grammar to read that itself, isn't it? | |
| 18:16 | slavik | sundar, yes |
| 18:16 | sundar | Hmmm.. perhaps a commandline switch then? |
| 18:16 | slavik | but then you can specify a standard or something where the second line has to denote some information, similar to the firstline shebang notation |
| 18:17 | sundar | yeah, somewhat like HTML files expressing their charset using a <meta> tag.. |
| 18:17 | slavik | because if you do 'use' that means that there is a foreign language to learn |
| 18:17 | no, not that one | |
| 18:17 | the doctype at the top | |
| 18:18 | http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_DOCTYPE.asp | |
| 18:18 | that type of thing | |
| 18:18 | sundar | yeah, that's a better analogy.. |
| 18:19 | slavik | so the second line could contain some "keyword" or "locale" in the native language and then the parser would look it up |
| 18:20 | sundar | we can have it that the second non-blank, non-comment line should be a language import if we're using a language other than English. that should be backward compatible too |
| 18:20 | slavik | so that we would have %grammars{'english'}, %grammars{'русский'} and so on |
| 18:20 | sundar: how about second line that "makes sense" | |
| 18:21 | sundar | where makes sense is defined as? :) |
| 18:21 | slavik | makes sense is defined as ^#(.*)$ | $1 is in keys %grammars |
| 18:22 | otherwise 'english' | |
| 18:23 | sundar | that's a good idea, but should it be a comment line? |
| 18:23 | slavik | yes |
| 18:23 | shebang is also commented ;) | |
| 18:23 | hell make it #!(.*) | |
| 18:24 | sundar | that's because shebang is for the shell or whatever, so Perl should ignore it.. here this is something for Perl to read, so semantically doesn't make sense to have it as a comment isn't it.. |
| 18:26 | slavik | should commented so that if something doesn't support it, it won't chocke on it |
| 18:26 | or maybe it should | |
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| 18:28 | sundar | If this is to become a part of the Perl 6 standard, then yes it should choke if it doesn't support this.. |
| 18:32 | slavik: thanks a lot for so many great ideas.. I'll look into them in detail and give my ideas here later too. | |
| 18:32 | for now it's getting late for me, going to bed.. | |
| 18:41 | japhb | I'm just getting back from a month or so away -- what's the status of rakudo ng these days? |
| 18:48 | slavik | japhb: not a clue :P |
| 18:48 | japhb | I see there's no pmichaud ... is jnthn around or just idle? |
| 18:48 | seen jnthn | |
| 18:48 | ah, no seen bot | |
| 18:50 | jnthn | japhb: I'm about |
| 18:51 | japhb: Sort of. | |
| 18:51 | :-) | |
| 18:51 | japhb | jnthn, ah, hi! |
| 18:51 | jnthn | hi! |
| 18:51 | japhb | So ... what's the status of the ng branch? I've been away a while .... |
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| 18:52 | jnthn | Rakudo ng has been going slowish...both myself and pm took a break from it over Christmas and New Years, though @other++ did some nice patches to keep things moving. :-) |
| 18:53 | japhb | OK, got it. |
| 18:53 | Does it look like things will be picking up in time for the Feb release, or is there a case of burnout or @life-conflicts? | |
| 18:53 | jnthn | I'm back in action now as such, though managed to catch a cold that's been rather distracting me from doing much the last couple of days. But I think it's going away now. Kinda. |
| 18:53 | japhb | Hope you feel better soon. |
| 18:54 | * japhb | is really tired of seasonal sicknesses |
| 18:54 | jnthn | On my part, I took a break over Christmas to avoid burnout, and came back ready to hack again - I'm suffering more inability to think than lack of motivation. |
| 18:54 | japhb | heh |
| 18:54 | (burnout prevention)++ | |
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| 19:03 | szabgab | levengli, hi |
| 19:04 | szbalint | hi szabgab :) |
| 19:05 | szabgab | szbalint, trying to help levengli to get on the channel |
| 19:05 | soupdragon joined #perl6 | |
| 19:05 | perigrin joined #perl6 | |
| 19:08 | levengli | am i finally in the room? |
| 19:09 | i'm new to this room, pidgin and ubuntu. all i have to calim is perl5 | |
| 19:09 | any recognition of life will assure me that i can move on | |
| 19:09 | lumi joined #perl6 | |
| 19:10 | soupdragon | lol |
| 19:10 | levengli you have it | |
| 19:10 | levengli | my main man! |
| 19:10 | thanks | |
| 19:10 | betterworld joined #perl6 | |
| 19:10 | szabgab | levengli++ |
| 19:11 | betterworld joined #perl6 | |
| 19:11 | betterworld joined #perl6 | |
| 19:11 | levengli | ok, now that we have that out of the way and i installed rakudu and perl6 - how do i move on |
| 19:11 | any tips in familiarizing myself with perl6? | |
| 19:11 | szabgab | perl6: "levengli, hi".say |
| 19:11 | p6eval | elf 29551, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: levengli, hi |
| 19:13 | levengli | perl6: "levengli, hi".say |
| 19:13 | p6eval | elf 29551, pugs, rakudo 3867ff: levengli, hi |
| 19:13 | levengli | cute |
| 19:13 | but on the command line, it isn't working | |
| 19:14 | should i be able to call: | |
| 19:14 | perl6 "'levengli.hi'.say" | |
| 19:14 | slavik | perl6 -e 'say "blah"' |
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| 19:14 | slavik | that's on the command line |
| 19:14 | jnthn | levengli: Depends what your goal is. If you want to learn Perl 6, there's various resources out there - see e.g. http://www.perl6.org/documentation/. Also reading other people's Perl 6 code can be a good way to get into it. |
| 19:14 | levengli | got it |
| 19:14 | starting to warm up my engines | |
| 19:15 | lichtkind joined #perl6 | |
| 19:15 | levengli | i'll start with http://perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6 |
| 19:15 | thanks | |
| 19:15 | go|dfish joined #perl6 | |
| 19:16 | Su-Shee | don't forget to say "engedit" instead of "engage" ;) |
| 19:16 | lichtkind | why current test pass numbers are decreasing? |
| 19:20 | jnthn | lichtkind: dobry vecer :-) I suspect because most dev effort is going into the ng branch, and we lost a few to Parrot regressions/changes that didn't get hunted down yet. |
| 19:21 | lichtkind | jnthn: ahoj i thought first its because some test cleanup/ removing old-bad tests |
| 19:22 | jnthn | There may be some of that too. |
| 19:22 | Though I think master is frozen against a certain version of the test suite for now anyway. | |
| 19:32 | colomon | Do we need to get master working on the latest Parrot? They're releasing this week, right? |
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| 19:35 | colomon | Or not?! "The next release of Rakudo (#15) is scheduled for March 19, 2009." |
| 19:37 | :O | |
| 19:37 | oh, wait, I'm lost in git. 2009.... | |
| 19:39 | Right, our next release is this Thursday. | |
| 19:40 | It's safe to assume, I think, that we're not going to have ng in place by then. | |
| 19:40 | So what needs to be done for release? | |
| 19:40 | I'm pretty sure master is completely broken WRT Parrot HEAD at the moment. | |
| 19:41 | .oO(Also starting to suspect I'm talking to myself) | |
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| 20:07 | jnthn | colomon: Last I saw, bacek was working on patching things up. Or I saw a patch or two from him anyway. |
| 20:08 | colomon: At the end of the day, though, I said to the Parrot folks way back, "if you do merge callsigs and contexts, it *will* cause issues for Rakudo; please work out how to patch it up before landing the branch". | |
| 20:09 | colomon | Is it a parrot patch to fix it, then? (No master commits since the tiny log function two weeks ago, according to github.) |
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| 20:09 | jnthn | Ah, I think bacek did write a patch...I thought it had been applied. |
| 20:09 | I'm guessing not though. | |
| 20:10 | Was sent to one(parrot-dev, perl6-compiler) mailing list. | |
| 20:10 | Feel free to hunt it down and apply it...for some reason I thought it had been. | |
| 20:10 | And we still had residual breakage. | |
| 20:10 | * jnthn | hopes the patch will work |
| 20:10 | jnthn | I can have a dig tomorrow, anyways. |
| 20:11 | Hopefully. | |
| 20:13 | colomon | will try to take alook when not entertaining small child. :) |
| 20:15 | korpenkraxar | hi all! I mainly stopped by to say you guys are doing a fantastic job with Perl 6! I am looking forward to help out the best way I can atm - by coding in it this year. |
| 20:16 | colomon | :) |
| 20:17 | jnthn | korpenkraxar: Sounds great. Hope it's fun, and feel free to drop by here for help. :-) |
| 20:23 | korpenkraxar | jnthn: I have a <3000 line Perl 5 project that needs a rewrite and I am hoping to do it in Perl 6. I actually have a few questions already. Maybe I should digg deeper into the documentation but these relates more to the current status of the Rakudo implementation than the actual language, so I'll ask the straight away: |
| 20:23 | What kind of Unix-type I/O can be used with Rakudo atm? Can I do Pipes and sockets? | |
| 20:25 | Second, what is the status on threading and sub-processes? | |
| 20:26 | jnthn | korpenkraxar: Sockets yes - someone did a pure Perl 6 web server. Pipes I'm not so sure about; I think Parrot can handle them. |
| 20:27 | But maybe we don't have the Perl 6 support yet. But that may not be too hard to get added, if Parrot does support it already. | |
| 20:27 | japhb | I know that at least read pipes can be used, because that's how I implement qx() for Plumage |
| 20:27 | jnthn | Oh! |
| 20:27 | I think we have qx in Rakudo too... | |
| 20:28 | korpenkraxar: Story on threading is less good though, I'm afraid - there's nothing to see yet on that in Rakudo. | |
| 20:28 | japhb | But they are implemented in extremely hackish form in Parrot -- command and args are smushed into a single string and passed to a pipe spawn routine ... which means security FAIL. |
| 20:28 | jnthn | Ouch. :-( |
| 20:28 | colomon | Is qx run the quoted text and capture its output? That worked in Rakudo last time I tried it. |
| 20:28 | jnthn | colomon: think so. |
| 20:30 | colomon | .oO(wonders if there should be a lazy version of qx) |
| 20:35 | korpenkraxar | jnthn: ahh, too bad with the threading. I am looking to write a daemon that listens to multiple pipes/sockets for input and threading would have been nice. Does that also limit the ability to do for do system() or "backticks" calls? |
| 20:37 | (sorry about that horrible last sentence) | |
| 20:38 | jnthn | korpenkraxar: Believe those work - well, their Perl 6 equivalents anyway (run and qx) |
| 20:39 | rakudo: run("ls") | |
| 20:39 | p6eval | rakudo 3867ff: operation not permitted in safe modein Main (file /home/p6eval//p2/lib/parrot/1.9.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib/Safe.pm, line 24) |
| 20:39 | jnthn | Yeah, implemented but we don't let you do that with the eval bot. ;-) |
| 20:50 | korpenkraxar | jnthn: last and likely the most stupid question, does the funny daemon pragma (in lack of a better word): while (1) { listen_for_input_on_socket; do stuff } work as expected in Rakudo. In other words, can my program listen for input indefinitely while consuming very little CPU cycles using the corresponding loop in Perl 6? |
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| 20:53 | jnthn | korpenkraxar: If you're just doing a blocking socket read, don't see why it'd so anything different than you'd expect. |
| 20:53 | korpenkraxar | gr8 |
| 20:53 | jnthn | korpenkraxar: The syntax in Perl 6 is just loop { ... } by the way. :-) |
| 20:53 | (loop can take some extra stuff, but bare loop is infinite) | |
| 20:55 | korpenkraxar | :-) yeah I am pretty ignorant at this point. Sorry. Looking forward to the first Perl 6 books. |
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| 20:57 | jnthn | korpenkraxar: See http://github.com/perl6/book/ for information about one book that's in progress. |
| 20:58 | Tene | korpenkraxar: Yes, that works as expected, IF you are only dealing with one socket. |
| 20:58 | If you're trying to listen on many sockets, you have to poll them individually. Rakudo does not have 'select' or async IO. | |
| 20:59 | jnthn | Tene: Does Parrot support select yet? |
| 21:00 | (If so, I guess it's probably not so hard to expose it in Perl 6...) | |
| 21:00 | korpenkraxar | Tene: thanx. this is the kind of stuff and gotchas I need to know but which is hunt down. |
| 21:01 | Tene | jnthn: no, no select. |
| 21:01 | korpenkraxar: Rakudo does not support threads at all. | |
| 21:01 | jnthn: writing a Select PMC has been on my tasklist for months, but never got around to it. | |
| 21:03 | korpenkraxar | Tene: ok. I thought that was needed to do external systems calls at all, or capture input from commands. Good to know. |
| 21:03 | njthn: Tene & Co: thanx for taking your time with my questions. It is encouraging to know an IRC like this is only a few clicks away. | |
| 21:03 | Tene | No problem. Glad to help. |
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| 21:14 | diakopter | hi #perl6 |
| 21:14 | Tene | Hi! |
| 21:19 | diakopter | Tene: hi, what's up |
| 21:20 | Tene | Just hanging out at home. I slept in a bit today. |
| 21:22 | diakopter | my mental TODO list seems to have vanished. I could've sworn there were a few large items in it yesterday. |
| 21:22 | Tene | I hate that. |
| 21:22 | I theoretically keep a todo list in a text file, but I nearly never update or check it. | |
| 21:23 | I seem to have lost all momentum on rakudo/parrot, which is disappointing. I was really enjoying that for a while. | |
| 21:24 | I'm considering working on updating rakudo to parrot trunk. | |
| 21:25 | diakopter | how many tests fail |
| 21:25 | Tene | Dunno. I haven't tried applying the patch from the list. |
| 21:27 | diakopter | oh. moritz reported the patch's effect on ng. and bacek replied that he'll work on fixing the issues (eval). |
| 21:28 | well | |
| 21:29 | patspam joined #perl6 | |
| 21:30 | diakopter | I think I should make it a goal today to get an nqp-rx clone running. er, maybe it'll take 2 days. |
| 21:31 | I suspect the grammar portion is expressive enough | |
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| 22:06 | colomon_ | Tene: Master needs to be patched to work with latest Parrot before it can be released Thursday. |
| 22:06 | Tene | colomon_: Yes, I know. I'm confused about why you're telling me this. |
| 22:10 | colomon_ | Saw a bit of conversation in the backtrace. Wanted to make sure I'm not the only one worrying about it. |
| 22:10 | You seemed a likely suspect. | |
| 22:11 | Tene | ah |
| 22:11 | Perhaps. >.> | |
| 22:11 | PacoLinux joined #perl6 | |
| 22:11 | Tene | I'm leaving to run errands in just a bit. I'll see if I can talk myself into looking at it when I get back. |
| 22:12 | colomon_ | If someone could post a link to the patch, it might help me take a look if I ever get ten minutes of peace today.... :) |
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| 22:16 | diakopter | colomon_: it's linked from http://groups.google.com/group[…]/10f507c989f9ac45 |
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| 22:27 | colomon_ | diakopter: thank you! |
| 22:36 | cspencer | i'm having issues building the version of parrot required by the latest rakudo-ng version. is this a known problem? |
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| 23:09 | * colomon | has the patch building on master while he runs out to get spicy beef with peanuts.... |
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