Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2010-01-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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09:26 Topic for #perl6is now »ö« | http://perl6.org/ | nopaste: http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
09:26 moritz_ good morning
09:28 jonasbn moritz_: did ou submit a paper to the Open Source Days in Copenhagen?
09:29 moritz_ jonasbn: an abstract for a talk, yes
09:29 moritz_ about parsing with Perl 6 grammars
09:30 jonasbn great, I will be in charge of the Perl track running in conjunction with the Perl6 hackathon
09:31 moritz_ hope it's OK that I didn't check with you first, I just didn't think about it
09:31 sjn hello guys
09:31 jonasbn moritz_:  will you also be attending the Dutch Perl Workshop on the friday
09:32 jonasbn the 5th. of March that is
09:32 jonasbn sjn: hello
09:32 moritz_ jonasbn: my planning didn't get that far yet :/
09:32 sjn Any of you know if Mark Lentczner still hangs around here? (He's the guy that made the Perl6 periodic table of operators, http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/)
09:33 jonasbn moritz_: okay
09:33 moritz_ sjn: haven't seen him lately
09:33 sjn moritz_: what's his nick?
09:34 moritz_ sjn: not sure, need to search a bit
09:35 moritz_ maybe it was mtnviewmark?
09:35 moritz_ sjn: if you need his email address, it's mark at glyphic dot com
09:37 sjn moritz_: thanks
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09:57 meneldor hi all
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11:03 moritz_ jonasbn: in case I haven't told you: THANK YOU SO MUCH for organizing the hackathon + perl track
11:04 jonasbn no problem
11:04 jonasbn I am looking so much forward
11:04 jonasbn excuse to drink beer and hack
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11:04 jonasbn in reverse order of course
11:05 * jonasbn hopes masak does not give him a lecture on reverse now
11:05 moritz_ :-)
11:06 hanekomu what's the Perl6 Discovery Workshop? http://perl6.org.uk/psdw2010/
11:10 moritz_ never heard of it
11:32 jnthn drink beer and hack! \o/
11:32 jnthn er, morning folks :-)
11:35 colomon morning!
11:36 colomon are we allowed to drink cider and hack instead?
11:37 jonasbn perhaps we should order some Club Mate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club-Mate
11:38 jnthn colomon: I don't personally find cider so appling. ;-)
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11:39 jnthn colomon: But feel free. :-)
11:39 colomon groan
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11:45 colomon jnthn: so, picking up from last night:
11:46 colomon the good news is that map now works with $_.
11:46 colomon the bad news is that grep doesn't.
11:46 colomon ng: (1...10).map({$_*$_}).perl.say
11:46 p6eval ng f21362: (1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100)␤
11:47 colomon ng: (1...10).grep({ say $_; 1; }).perl.say
11:47 p6eval ng f21362: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
11:47 colomon arg
11:50 colomon ng: (1...10).grep({ say $_; 1; }).perl.say
11:50 p6eval ng f21362: Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤Mu()␤[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10]␤
11:51 colomon huh.  also interesting is that that's an array rather than a list?
11:51 jnthn Hmm...odd.
11:53 colomon the last detail probably comes from the current implementation of gather / take.
11:59 jnthn Yes, that's quite possible.
11:59 jnthn Would ahve to dive into the code to have a beter idea of the problem with grep here.
12:05 sjohnson hi guys
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12:05 colomon jnthn: the good news is the grep code itself is dead simple.  :)
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12:36 colomon jnthn: Woah.  Does the $blah: for invocant syntax actually work in ng?!  (backlogging your patches from yesterday)
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12:52 colomon ng: class A { method B($inv: $fred) { say $inv.WHAT; say $fred.WHAT; }; }; A.new.B("hello");
12:52 p6eval ng f21362: A()␤Str()␤
12:52 colomon \o/
12:52 jnthn Aye, I put that back yesterday. :-)
12:53 colomon jnthn: I tried to ask you about that, about five netsplits ago.  ;)
12:53 jnthn colomon: freenode fail. :-
12:54 colomon did that ever work in Rakudo?
12:54 colomon master, I mean.
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13:00 colomon rakudo: class A { method B($inv: $fred) { say $inv.WHAT; say $fred.WHAT; }; }; A.new.B("hello");
13:00 p6eval rakudo 726b83:  ( no output )
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13:02 takadonet morning all
13:09 meneldor guys when i invoke a method inside Role how to know which class is the invocant?
13:09 moritz_ with $?CLASS or so
13:09 moritz_ not sure if it's implemented
13:09 moritz_ or self.WHAT
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13:10 meneldor self.self.WHAT is : Use of uninitialized value
13:10 meneldor self.WHAT i mean
13:11 meneldor Symbol '$?CLASS' not predeclared in create
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13:13 jnthn self.WHAT I think should work. :-/
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13:15 meneldor hmm ill check my code because it doesnt work
13:15 meneldor even: say self - is undefined value
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13:18 moritz_ meneldor: did you compose the role into a class?
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13:19 meneldor you mean: class Foo does Bar ?
13:23 moritz_ yes
13:23 meneldor yea
13:24 moritz_ ./perl6 -e 'role a { method b {say self} }; class b does a { }; b.new.b'
13:24 moritz_ b()<0x7f86b0e36168>
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13:24 moritz_ and when I use say self.WHAT I get b()
13:26 meneldor moritz_:  i use it as module
13:27 meneldor my classes are in other file
13:27 meneldor then i compose an object in the first file
13:27 meneldor next im calling the role
13:28 meneldor when i do this inside the module everythink is fine
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13:28 meneldor do i have to export the role?
13:28 moritz_ no
13:28 moritz_ but you have to use the module the role is in
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13:43 * moritz_ just wrote $self->schema->resultset('Job')->search({ status => $status }) in Perl 5
13:44 moritz_ and I would have loved to write it as @.schema.resultset('Job').search({ :$status}) instead :-)
13:50 PerlJam moritz_: Well ...  port DBIx::Class to Perl 6  ;)
13:51 PerlJam greetings btw
13:57 colomon moritz_: wait, is @. equivalent to @(self). or something?
13:58 moritz_ colomon: @.foo is equivalent to @(self.foo)
13:58 moritz_ and I just reallized that it's wrong in this context
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14:00 mathw DBIx::Class in Perl 6 would be awesome
14:03 takadonet really want to start using DBIx::Class (Perl 5) in my projects
14:10 PerlJam mathw: what would make it more awesome is if it were ready for Rakudo *
14:10 * PerlJam is really wishing for lexically scoped macros in Perl 5 right now.
14:12 Alias joined #perl6
14:13 PerlJam greetings Alias
14:14 Alias \o
14:15 payload joined #perl6
14:17 Su-Shee I wish for named parameters.
14:18 meneldor\ joined #perl6
14:20 meneldor moritz_: it works
14:21 meneldor just silly mistake :)
14:22 meneldor if self.WHAT says MyModule(), how to compare it against class MyModule?
14:22 jnthn self.WHAT ~~ MyModule # permits subclasses too; that said, self ~~ MyModule will also do that.
14:23 jnthn But be careful...
14:23 jnthn You're making the role less useful to other classes.
14:24 meneldor i use the role with 4 classes and i wanna know which one invoke it
14:24 jnthn Why, out of interest?
14:24 moritz_ if your design is good, that should not be interest
14:24 moritz_ (except for debugging, maybe)
14:25 meneldor for debugging
14:25 jnthn Ah, for debugging makes sense then. :-)
14:27 mathw PerlJam: First we need basic database drivers then
14:28 moritz_ first DBI, then DBIx::@things :-)
14:28 moritz_ for testing and developing DBI, you can use file-based DBDs first
14:29 payload joined #perl6
14:29 mathw this is true
14:31 meneldor DBIx::@things ? what it would be :)
14:33 meneldor of im out of space today, you mean DBIx::Class etc
14:34 moritz_ right
14:34 moritz_ any classes in the DBIx:: namespace
14:37 meneldor a driver for SQLite will be good for begining
14:38 payload joined #perl6
14:38 moritz_ masak++ has written some SQLite binding, iirc
14:39 colomon http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1064622
14:41 mberends heh
14:43 PZt joined #perl6
14:44 * moritz_ wrote a reply
14:44 lumi joined #perl6
14:44 mberends the article preceding the comment is just as important http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40110
14:45 colomon sure, I figured people had read that already.  :)
14:45 colomon I forget everyone may not follow the blogs like I do.
14:46 * moritz_ reads planetsix
14:46 takadonet colomon: you are not alone. I read every piece about Perl 6 or Parrot
14:52 * jnthn -> vienna.pm
14:52 mberends good move
15:01 frettled Newsflash: security vulnerability in gzip, fixed in Debian etch, lenny and sid (unstable), unknown status for other systems.
15:01 PerlJam newsflashes are for twitter :)
15:02 mberends zippers are for flashers ;)
15:04 moritz_ now I've forgotten to add 1; to the end of a Perl 5 module. Againe.
15:04 moritz_ s/e\././
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15:04 pmichaud good morning, #perl6
15:05 moritz_ good morning pmichaud
15:05 takadonet morning pmichaud
15:05 frettled good morning :)
15:05 PerlJam greets pm
15:05 mberends hello pmichaud :)
15:06 colomon \o/
15:06 pmichaud so, for the january release I'm currently leaning towards holding the release for a few days so that we can bring the ng branch a bit farther along (but no longer than a week -- i.e., next thursday we ship ng branch no matter what).  opinions?
15:07 PerlJam Does "bring ng farther along" mean "make it master" or not?
15:07 pmichaud yes
15:07 frettled pmichaud: go for it
15:07 moritz_ pmichaud: +1
15:07 PerlJam Then holding for a week gets my vote for sure.
15:07 pmichaud other option is to ship one last release on the current master, and then immediately switch ng to be new master immediately after release
15:07 ash_ joined #perl6
15:08 pmichaud but I don't see a whole lot of purpose in another release on the old master
15:08 PerlJam indeed
15:08 colomon seems like it would require a blitz of work to make ng ready to be master in a week, but it's certainly not a bad idea.
15:08 pmichaud well, several have said we should bite the bullet and make ng master even if it means a (significant) regression.  I'm inclined to agree.
15:08 pmichaud regardless, I plan to have list assignment done today.  :)
15:08 moritz_ \o/
15:08 PerlJam \o/
15:08 pmichaud that should help a lot
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15:09 pmichaud okay, I'll go with the "hold for up to a week" plan.
15:09 ash_ pmichaud does the list changes include @ context?
15:09 pmichaud ash_: we should be able to do that reasonably quickly, yes.
15:09 ash_ cool
15:09 colomon list assignment \o/
15:10 payload joined #perl6
15:16 pmichaud S03:1996 looks wrongish.
15:17 pmichaud I thought that array assignment is "mostly eager"
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15:18 colomon really?  I would think laziness is pretty necessary -- otherwise you're forcing people to think about array versus list all the time.
15:21 colomon oooo, laziness and side effects really don't get along well, do they?
15:25 ash_ pmichaud in src/builtin/List.pir there is a list function, (that is supposed to be the long name for @()) it currently isn't working correctly, i think, if you pass a named parameter. I was letting you know since your doing some stuff with lists right now
15:25 ash_ here's an example
15:25 ash_ ng:  say list(1, 2, :b<a>).perl;
15:25 p6eval ng f21362: (1, 2)␤
15:26 ash_ the 3rd parameter should be a pair, moritz_++ noticed this
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15:33 pmichaud checking.  I think the spec changed recently here.
15:34 pmichaud if the spec didn't change, then ng has it correct.
15:34 pmichaud and :b<a> would be a named argument to list()
15:35 moritz_ I think having list() specced as a function is wrong
15:35 moritz_ and even if it where, it would have to die
15:35 moritz_ bacause list has only *@_, not *%_
15:36 pmichaud there was a long discussion about this many moons ago
15:36 pmichaud the problem is not only with list()
15:36 Intensity joined #perl6
15:36 pmichaud i.e., it's not something we can fix by recognizing 'list' syntactically
15:37 pmichaud e.g.:        for   1,2,3,:a<b> { .say }
15:37 pmichaud (although this one probably works, I guess.  hrm.)
15:37 pmichaud anyway, current spec says that    :a<b>   is always a named parameter when used as an argument
15:37 moritz_ rakudo: for 1, 2, :a<b> -> $x { say $x.WHAT }
15:37 p6eval rakudo 726b83: Int()␤Int()␤Pair()␤
15:38 pmichaud right, rakudo currently sees that okay because 'for' isn't a function call
15:38 pmichaud okay, looks as though the spec (S06) did not change
15:39 pmichaud so   list(1, 2, :a<b>)   should either throw an exception or it should contain two elements
15:39 pmichaud and, of course,  list(...)  is *always* a function call, because of the parens.
15:39 moritz_ oh
15:39 pmichaud interestingly:
15:39 ash_ so, list 1, 2, :a<b> is different than list(1, 2, :a<b>) ?
15:40 pmichaud ash: yes.
15:40 ash_ k, i see
15:40 pmichaud interestingly:
15:40 pmichaud ng:  say (list (1, 2, :a<b>)).perl
15:40 p6eval ng f21362: (1, 2)␤
15:40 pmichaud I call bug.
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15:40 pmichaud that should have three elements, not two.
15:41 ash_ how would you be able to tell the difference between list () and list()
15:41 pmichaud by the space
15:41 colomon woah.
15:41 pmichaud ng:   say(3), 4, 5
15:41 p6eval ng f21362: 3␤
15:41 pmichaud ng:   say (3),4,5
15:41 p6eval ng f21362: 345␤
15:42 ash_ okay, i thought you could have a space after the funciton name for some reason, but apparently not :P
15:42 mathw you can, but it means something else :)
15:42 pmichaud this is also what allows us to distinguish    if 1 ...     from   if(1)
15:43 * ash_ nods
15:43 pmichaud in detail...
15:43 pmichaud say(3)    is a postcircumfix on the 'say' function
15:44 pmichaud say (3)   is a circumfix (3) argument to the say listop
15:44 * colomon nods
15:46 ash_ S03 under Comma operator precedence covers this apparently, i just missed some of the specifics, i'll re-read that section
15:47 ash_ well, some of this, not all of it
15:47 pmichaud it's mainly that postcircumfix operators don't have spaces
15:48 ash_ so, is S32-Containers list subroutine the correct definition then?
15:49 pmichaud looking
15:49 pmichaud ash_: I think so, yes.
15:49 pmichaud at least, it's correct as things stand today.
15:50 pmichaud this is one of those areas that it wouldn't surprise me if we have a spec change at some point (thus my earlier comment thinking that perhaps the spec changed recently on this point)
15:51 ash_ well i added that since it wasn't in the spec that I could find, so i am just making sure I added the right thing
15:52 pmichaud phenny tell TimToady  S03:1996 looks wrongish... any clarifications you can offer?  I thought array assignment was now mostly eager (even for iterators).
15:52 pmichaud ...ENOPHENNY?
15:52 pmichaud oh well, TimToady will see it in backscroll :)
15:53 colomon what would "mostly eager" mean?
15:53 pmichaud "mostly eager" (defined in S07) means that we iterate and fill in elements until we reach a point that we *know* will be infinite
15:54 moritz_ uhm.
15:54 pmichaud thus    @a = 1..5;   would not be a lazy assignment
15:54 moritz_ what about 1 ... $closure?
15:54 pmichaud afaik, that would tend to be eager also when assigned to an array
15:55 moritz_ even though we don't know if it might be infinite?
15:55 pmichaud correct
15:55 pmichaud see S07, and S07:72
15:56 moritz_ that's... definitively not DWIM
15:56 pmichaud I think that depens on WYM  :-)
15:56 pmichaud *depends
15:56 colomon I'm with moritz_.
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15:57 pmichaud the problem is with things like    @a = (1, 2, foo(), @b)
15:57 moritz_ pmichaud: true :-). WIM is not an inifite loop, unless there's no other interpretation
15:57 pmichaud we wouldn't expect changes to @b to be reflected in @a
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15:58 colomon but even if not... I don't want @a = 1...1000000 to create a giant array in memory unless it's actually needed.
15:58 KyleHa We had a metaoperator to making things synchronous or not recently, right?  Can we have one to make things lazier or eagerer?
15:58 pmichaud colomon: then don't use assignment -- use a feed operator
15:58 moritz_ in my mental (which might be flawed and mental) model that works like this:
15:58 moritz_ foo() is evaluated eagerly
15:58 pmichaud colomon: what you want is    my @a = 1...1000000
15:58 pmichaud er
15:59 pmichaud colomon: what you want is    my @a <== 1...1000000
15:59 pmichaud <== forces lazy evaluation
15:59 moritz_ and @b as the last item of the list is evaluated lazily...
15:59 moritz_ and has a hook
15:59 moritz_ which forces eager evaluation as soon as @b is modified
15:59 moritz_ KyleHa: there are 'lazy', 'eager' and 'hyper' prefix operators
16:00 pmichaud moritz_: so, we have to keep track of all of the things that are referencing @b ?
16:00 colomon I would have that @b's iterator would be cloned for @a.
16:01 pmichaud colomon: you'd have to clone @b itself, not just its iterator
16:01 colomon sure.
16:01 moritz_ pmichaud: of all things that lazily reference @b, yes
16:02 moritz_ something like @b[0] could be evaluated eagerly, and doesn't store a backreference
16:02 moritz_ mind you, I have no idea if this is sane or not
16:02 pmichaud unless of course @b[0] is itself a lazy container :-)
16:02 moritz_ but that would be a different level
16:03 moritz_ then @b[0] would have the possibilty for such hooks itself
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16:03 pmichaud anyway, I'll simply say that this mental model doesn't match the spec.
16:03 moritz_ fair 'nough
16:03 pmichaud and if the spec is going to change again on this point, I hope it does so sooner and not later.  It took a lot of work to even get to what we have now.
16:04 pmichaud for the better part of a year, list assignment has been "mostly eager"
16:04 pmichaud and the way to get lazy semantics is to use a feed
16:04 moritz_ and for the better part of a year, nearly nobody worked on laziness wrt list assignment
16:05 pmichaud false
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16:05 pmichaud one of the reasons why it's taken so long is because the spec wasn't solidified until after rakudo had adopted a workaround
16:05 pmichaud and patching the new spec into rakudo turned out to be a pain
16:06 pmichaud more to the point, one of the reasons that list assignment is defined as "mostly eager" is precisely because of the work we did on trying to do laziness in list assignment
16:06 colomon I say implement it as S07 as it is, so moritz_  and I can see how it works in practice.  :)
16:06 * moritz_ stands corrected
16:06 pmichaud in particular,  lazy list assignment definitely gives very surprising action-at-a-distance semantics
16:07 moritz_ aye, those should be avoided
16:07 pmichaud so, it was decided that list assignment should be eager (which matches what most people expect when they say   @a = ...), and that if laziness is desired, it should be explicitly requested
16:08 pmichaud a good example is that    my @a = $file.lines();    # should not be lazy
16:08 moritz_ should my @a = lazy { $files.lines }; by lazy?
16:09 moritz_ or does that only work in scalar context?
16:09 colomon I think this just emphasizes my functional instinct that I don't want to use = that often.  ;)
16:09 pmichaud I dunno, I haven't folded the 'lazy' function into my mental model yet
16:09 moritz_ ok
16:10 pmichaud my guess is that 'lazy' would return something that says "treat this as an infinite assignment"
16:12 colomon ah, that would be sweet.
16:13 * sjn wonders what the ö-operator does
16:13 moritz_ sjohnson: Whatever you define it to be
16:14 moritz_ erm, I meant sjn
16:14 sjn moritz_: I'm sure he does :)
16:15 pugs_svn r29567 | pmichaud++ | [pm.txt]:  Another question for TimToady++.
16:15 pugs_svn r29567 |
16:15 pugs_svn r29567 | Pm-16:  S03:1996 looks like a fossil, or at least inconsistent
16:15 pugs_svn r29567 |     with S07:72.  Any clarifications?
16:15 * colomon just discovered that both his code and his test for that code are broken.
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16:57 pyrimidine moritz_: Around?
17:00 ash_ on a completely unrelated note, parrot doesn't die like it used to when you run a ParrotThread from a hll
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17:21 Tene ash_: I saw you mention that.  Interesting.
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17:23 takadonet Wow 13 commits yesterday on NG branch
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17:37 pugs_svn r29568 | lwall++ | [S03] tweak definition of when a series operator is considered infinite
17:38 TimToady pmichaud: see ^^
17:38 TimToady I'll be on the road soon, and out of touch for most of the day (incl phone call)
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17:45 PerlJam TimToady: I think pmichaud was having trouble reconciling "arbitrarily lazy" with "mostly eager" (at least that's how it seems to me)
17:46 [particle]1 TimToady: noted
17:47 clintongormley TimToady: when you get bored with redefining Perl6, please feel free to turn LaTeX into something more readable :)
17:47 TimToady PerlJam: I just defined certain 1...{something()} arbitrarily as lazy always even in mostly eager context
17:47 lumi joined #perl6
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17:48 PerlJam clintongormley: don't distract him!  ;)
17:49 clintongormley PerlJam: you guys have had him for years already!
17:49 PerlJam and we like it that way!
17:49 clintongormley :)
17:50 PerlJam clintongormley: however, I could argue that TimToady has *already* done what you've asked.   (See Perl 6 :-)
17:51 clintongormley PerlJam: yeah, now he's just fiddling
17:51 TimToady afk & # soggy fiddling^Wdriving, at least till SLO
17:52 PerlJam TimToady: be safe!
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18:21 Tene rakudo master was updated to parrot trunk, but not ng?
18:26 pmichaud yeah, TimToady's tweak doesn't really answer my question.  :-|
18:26 pmichaud oh well.
18:27 * Tene tests cherry-picking from master
18:27 Tene pmichaud: Good to see you around again.
18:27 pmichaud Tene: glad to be around again.
18:27 pmichaud (finally)
18:27 pmichaud although I did need the break.
18:29 Tene Yeah, it works with the patch from master
18:29 Tene well, compiles, at least.
18:29 pmichaud has parrot 2.0 released?
18:29 Tene Yes.
18:29 pmichaud hmmm, I didn't see the email commit for it yet.
18:30 Tene I'll run a spectest first.
18:31 pmichaud anyway -- yes, ng should bump PARROT_REVISION to 2.0 when available
18:31 Tene pmichaud: If I push this to ng, it will fail on older parrot, so you'll have to update.  s'okay?
18:31 ash_ 2.0 was put up earlier today/last night
18:32 pmichaud Tene: I don't quite understand ("fail on older parrot")
18:33 Tene Hmm.  There are some spectest failures, but I'm not sure if they're from this patch or not.
18:33 pmichaud let's just say that until we cut the jan release of rakudo, our PARROT_REVISION should be Parrot 2.0.0
18:36 Tene I should push this, then.
18:36 pmichaud wfm
18:36 PerlJam pmichaud: wrt TimToady ... what I was going to say earlier was that I don't think S03 is inconsistent with S07 in intent, but maybe the prose could be made a little better.   S03:2002 (was S03:1996) is clarified in the 3rd sentence IMHO and that seems to match what S07 says.
18:37 pmichaud PerlJam:   except it doesn't (match)
18:39 pmichaud "mostly eager" would seem to imply that it doesn't suspend upon just any ol iterator
18:39 pmichaud e.g.
18:40 pmichaud my @a = $file.lines();    # lazy or eager?
18:40 pmichaud clearly $file.lines() returns an iterator, here.
18:41 PerlJam I would say lazy.
18:41 pmichaud you would?  so then
18:41 pmichaud my @a = $file.lines();   my $b = $file.get();   say @a[0];   # which line is it?
18:42 PerlJam the first line because the .get is lazy too  :)
18:42 pmichaud no
18:42 Tene "mostly eager" obviously means that it eagerly reads half of the lines, and then reads the rest lazily.
18:42 pmichaud it's not :-)
18:42 pmichaud and even ickier:
18:42 PerlJam heh, there's a reason I'm not the language designer here :)
18:42 pmichaud my @a = $file.lines();  say @a[4];   say $file.get();   say @a[5];
18:43 pmichaud I think the whole idea of "mostly eager" was to avoid this sort of "action at a distance"
18:43 Tene pmichaud: get is a method call on the same object as you called lines on.  It's feasible that $file keeps internal state to remember what's going on.
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18:44 pmichaud Tene: the question is about the contents of @a
18:44 pmichaud not about the filehandle.
18:45 PerlJam I wonder what would happen if you forced laziness:  my @a = lazy $file.lines();  # assuming that's the proper syntax.
18:45 pmichaud that would be
18:45 dalek rakudo/ng: a440e06 | (Solomon Foster)++ |  (3 files):
18:45 dalek rakudo/ng: Get master working with Parrot HEAD.  Patch from Vasily Chekalkin.
18:45 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a440e069a36f5985ebb26775bcbfffba03afb6c1
18:45 pmichaud my @a <== $file.lines();
18:46 Tene I probably should have tweaked that commit message :)
18:46 pmichaud in that case I think it's explicit that we expect @a to be action-at-a-distance
18:46 PerlJam pmichaud: Is what I wrote the same as what you wrote?
18:46 PerlJam (do they behave the same)
18:47 pmichaud PerlJam: I don't know, I haven't folded the 'lazy' syntax into my mental model yet.  But I suspect that 'lazy' returns some sort of iterator that says "treat me lazily"
18:47 pmichaud in that case, 'lazy' is modifying the assignment (i.e., it's exercising the "not mostly eager" part of list assignment)
18:47 lumi joined #perl6
18:47 pmichaud however, I don't think that every iterator automatically implies lazy semantics
18:47 pmichaud in particular
18:48 payload joined #perl6
18:48 pmichaud nm
18:48 pmichaud bad example
18:48 * PerlJam notes that S04 is the only place that mentions the lazy keyword.
18:48 PerlJam There are no code examples.
18:49 pmichaud anyway, handling 'lazy' doesn't seem problematic to me... it just means we return something that says "I should be lazily evaluated"
18:49 pmichaud the question is more about list/array assignment itself; i.e., the default semantics
18:50 Tene *huh*.  I guess maybe I didn't realclean after cherry-picking that commit.  It worked before, but after a realclean and rebuild, ng now fails to build for me.
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18:52 pmichaud looks like the 2.0.0 commit is r43487, yes?
18:52 PerlJam did anyone ever figure out what's going on with this?
18:52 PerlJam rakudo: my @a = List.new(1,2,3); say @a.perl;
18:53 PerlJam oops
18:53 p6eval rakudo 726b83: []␤
18:53 PerlJam ng: my @a = List.new(1,2,3); say @a.perl;
18:53 p6eval ng f21362: [(1, 2, 3)]␤
18:53 pmichaud looks like .new isn't marking the List as a flattening object
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18:54 * PerlJam has no idea what that means, but hopes that it helps whoever was working on this (ash?)
18:55 pmichaud we have to mark objects as "flatten in list context"
18:55 pmichaud so, for example
18:55 pmichaud my @a = 1,2,3;
18:55 pmichaud my $b := @a;
18:55 pmichaud my @c = (@a, 4, 5);   @c.elems := 5
18:55 pmichaud my @d = ($b, 4, 5);   @d.elems == 3
18:56 pmichaud @a is flattening.  $b is non-flattening.
18:56 pmichaud oops
18:56 pmichaud I forgot my #'s
18:56 pmichaud my @c = (@a, 4, 5);   # @c.elems == 5
18:56 pmichaud my @d = ($b, 4, 5);   # @d.elems == 3
18:57 Tene Okay, I think that's all.  Realcleaning to confirm.
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19:00 PerlJam ng: my @a = List.new(1,2,3); say @a.WHAT; say @a.perl;  my @b = 1,2,3: say @b.WHAT; say @b.perl;
19:00 p6eval ng a440e0: Confused at line 1, near "my @b = 1,"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤
19:00 PerlJam ng: my @a = List.new(1,2,3); say @a.WHAT; say @a.perl;  my @b = 1,2,3; say @b.WHAT; say @b.perl;
19:00 p6eval ng a440e0: Array()␤[(1, 2, 3)]␤Array()␤[1, 2, 3]␤
19:01 PerlJam ng: my $a = List.new(1,2,3); say $a.WHAT; say $a.perl;  my $b = 1,2,3; say $b.WHAT; say $b.perl;
19:01 p6eval ng a440e0: List()␤(1, 2, 3)␤List()␤(1, 2, 3)␤
19:01 PerlJam bah, I don't remember
19:02 pmichaud right, the difference is that List.new(1,2,3) isn't coming back flagged as a flattening object
19:02 pmichaud whereas  1,2,3  is a Parcel, and Parcels always mark themselves as flattening
19:02 Tene So, is there any spec on exactly what 'fail' outside of a sub should do?
19:03 pmichaud Tene: yes.
19:03 pmichaud it should be caught by an outermost handler of some sort
19:03 Tene What should be done with it at that point?
19:04 pmichaud I don't remember -- I just know that it's been discussed.  I think it made it into the spec (but might be misremembering that part)
19:04 ash_ I am not sure how you'd fix @a = List.new(1, 2, 3); the correct thing should be that @a[0] == 1, @a[1] == 2 etc
19:04 ash_ right?
19:04 Tene I'll look again sometime.
19:04 pmichaud ash_: that's part of what I'm working out now
19:04 Tene Need to go do $realwork now.
19:04 dalek rakudo/ng: d0de156 | tene++ | src/binder/bind.c:
19:04 dalek rakudo/ng: Missed one include to update to callcontext
19:04 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d0de156692670bfe3bb8908a26dd0f9d560d2f0b
19:04 ash_ pmichaud: okay, cool
19:05 pmichaud TimToady++ suggested that we flag all objects that flatten in list context, but I'm wondering if it's better to flag the things that don't flatten.
19:05 Tene Okay, ng builds again for me, so I don't *think* those need to be reverted, but please feel free if I'm mistaken.
19:05 * pmichaud tries out the updated ng
19:06 Tene You'll need to update parrot, too.
19:06 pmichaud shouldn't PARROT_REVISION be doing that for me?
19:06 Tene Could be.  I don't use --gen-parrot
19:06 pmichaud looks like it didn't get bumped.
19:07 Tene i think it's set to the commit after the callcontext merge, not to 2.0.0
19:07 pmichaud setting
19:07 pmichaud looks like whoever bumped it last time also incorrectly left the 1.9.0
19:08 ash_ pmichaud: should @a = list(1, 2), list(3, 4); == ((1, 2), (3, 4)) ? Just curious, I am not sure how you'd know the difference between when to flatten the argument into @ or when to make @ with an element in it
19:09 pmichaud ash_: no, that would end up being  [1,2,3,4]
19:09 pmichaud a List flattens in list context
19:11 PerlJam Is smash not doing the release?
19:12 pmichaud I think smash and I decided that we'll move him to a different month, since this release is "weird"
19:12 pmichaud so I'll do the release myself
19:12 pmichaud or I'll re-delegate to whoever happens to be around when we think it's ready to release :)
19:13 PerlJam march doesn't have a volunteer.
19:13 pmichaud ah, that sounds like a good time
19:13 PerlJam (and I find it curioius that the release guide stops at march  :)
19:13 pmichaud we just haven't pushed it farther into the new year yet :)
19:15 pmichaud ick, ng branch gives me lots of failures now
19:16 pmichaud it didn't do that yesterday
19:16 Tene I looked at a few of them.  lexical_subs dies because it uses fail outside of a sub.
19:16 ash_ joined #perl6
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19:16 pmichaud I get lots of failures throughout the spectest base
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19:18 lisppaste3 tene pasted "spectest failures in ng" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93651
19:18 pmichaud yeah, that's roughly the set I'm seeing.
19:18 pmichaud Those weren't failing yesterday.
19:19 Tene No?  I remember seeing roughly that for a while now.
19:19 pmichaud were you always building against parrot trunk?
19:19 pmichaud if so, that would be why.
19:19 pmichaud they weren't failing against 1.9.0
19:19 Tene No.  Without those patches I just pushed, it can't even compile against trunk
19:20 pmichaud I mean, have you been building against trunk when you saw those other failures?
19:20 Tene I was using parrot_revision, I thought.  if that disagrees with your experience, I was probably doing something wrong or misremembering.
19:20 * pmichaud checks.
19:24 Tene If so, feel free to revert it, and I'll re-apply and work on fixing the failures tonight.
19:26 pmichaud I probably won't revert.  we know we need the ng branch to build against 2.0.0
19:26 pmichaud it's just that those failures have to be classified as "new failures" due to 2.0.0, and not existing failures
19:28 dalek rakudo/master: 1d49284 | duff++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
19:28 dalek rakudo/master: [docs] Add tentative release dates through the end of 2010
19:28 dalek rakudo/master: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1d49284d250729f4523b5c1d756ba0a39fcfb883
19:30 pmichaud ...right.  ng branch as of f21362 (i.e., yesterday)  passes all spectests.
19:31 pmichaud (i.e., "make spectest" doesn't return any failures)
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19:34 Tene pmichaud: even t/spec/S06-advanced_subroutine_features/lexical-subs.rakudo passed on ng as of yesterday?
19:35 pmichaud yes.
19:35 Tene that should die on line 45
19:35 Tene The test is broken.
19:36 pmichaud http://nopaste.snit.ch/19310   # spectest results in ng branch as of yesterday
19:37 pmichaud why is the test broken?
19:37 Tene it calls 'fail' outside of a sub
19:37 pmichaud that's not an error.
19:38 Tene It is in current ng.  Even if we do have a global error handler, are you suggesting that it should resume from the exception?  nothing after a 'fail' shohuld be run.
19:39 pmichaud are you saying that $! should be true there?
19:39 Tene ng: say 'a'; fail 'b'; say 'c';
19:39 p6eval ng d0de15: a␤No exception handler and no message␤current instr.: '&fail' pc 14523 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:202)␤
19:40 Tene pmichaud: Ah, right, lexical eval stuff worked, so it didn't call fail.
19:40 Tene Got iy.
19:40 pmichaud right.
19:40 Tene ><
19:40 ash_ isn't the fail only called when its not 'ok'
19:40 Tene ash_: Yes, as I just said.
19:41 pmichaud anyway, after looking at things a bit further I'm about 50% certain that cherry picking the rakudo master patches for 2.0.0 into the ng branch isn't correct or sufficient
19:41 pmichaud a lot of the binding code is substantially different between the two, iiuc
19:42 * Tene nods
19:42 pmichaud otoh, rakudo does at least build when the patches are applied, so....
19:42 Tene I'll read through it tonight, if nobody gets to it before me.
19:42 pmichaud I'm not sure what to do here.
19:43 pmichaud I'm checking to make sure that rakudo master runs with parrot 2.0.0, at any rate.
19:43 Tene Personally, I'd prefer to have visible signs that it's broken and needs to be fixed RSN.
19:43 pmichaud agreed
19:44 pmichaud but since I was planning to spend the next couple of days working on list assignment and the like, I'd prefer not to be blocked
19:44 colomon Tene: imagine my surprise to discover I checked something into ng while I was out getting my hair cut.
19:44 Tene Is the lexical eval failure going to block you?  Or just confidence from spectests?
19:44 pmichaud confidence from spectests.  a lot of tests fail that I think shouldn't fail.
19:44 Tene I vote to revert, then.
19:44 Tene I'll work on it in a local branch.
19:45 colomon pmichaud: I didn't bump the 1.9.0 when I bumped the Parrot revision because it wasn't actually 2.0.0 when I did it.  Should I have deleted the 1.9.0 bit instead?
19:45 pmichaud colomon: yes.
19:45 colomon pmichaud: noted.
19:45 pmichaud we only put the 1.9.0 there when the revision number is the exact revision of the release
19:45 pmichaud the 1.9.0 says "parrot 1.9.0 as released is okay also"
19:45 pmichaud in case the parrot build doesn't contain the revision number
19:45 Tene pmichaud: I'll push a revert commit.
19:45 colomon I think moritz_ tried bumping parrot revision for ng over the weekend and ran into the same sort of problems you guys are seeing now.
19:46 colomon I don't know if he ever found a solution for them, I presume note.
19:46 pmichaud Tene: okay, wfm
19:46 colomon *not
19:46 lumi joined #perl6
19:52 dalek rakudo/ng: 3881a5a | tene++ |  (3 files):
19:52 dalek rakudo/ng: Revert updates for Parrot 2.0.0 for now.
19:52 dalek rakudo/ng: Will re-apply when we have a more-complete update.
19:52 dalek rakudo/ng: review: http://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3881a5a897eb40d73a74e63164a4ae87cc1ce835
19:52 ash_ maybe mention it to #parrot to see if they can give some insight? if we can track down a specific issue that is
19:52 pmichaud specific issue is that ng branch doesn't build/run with parrot 2.0.0
19:53 ash_ oh, what was it building with for the stuff Tene did? a part of 1.9.0?
19:53 colomon I think over the weekend someone suggested it had something to do with the return value from eval?
19:54 colomon but I was very busy with other stuff at the time, and may have misunderstood.
19:54 pmichaud ash_: parrot 2.0.0, but it gets a variety of spectest failures that aren't present when running against 1.9.0
19:57 ash_ i guess what i meant to say was can we track down a specific cause for the spectest failures in 2.0.0 with the cherry picked patches needed for ng to build against trunk parrot
19:59 KyleHa joined #perl6
19:59 colomon ash_: ?  I believe the changes to make ng compile with parrot 2.0.0 are too simple to help, and there aren't any changes yet to make it work...
19:59 pmichaud actually, I just recalled that there may be other changes needed that didn't get cherry picked
19:59 pmichaud specifically, the interface for accessing contexts changed also
20:01 pmichaud i.e., some things that were using the keyed interface were switched to use getattribute (or vice-versa, can't remember which atm)
20:02 pmichaud if that's the issue, we can't directly cherry pick the patch from master (because the source files are substantially different), but it's not a hard change to locate and make
20:02 pmichaud I might try that in a second (phone now)
20:03 ascent_ joined #perl6
20:05 colomon sorry, if I wasn't clear, the patch from master is trivial -- just PARROT_REVISION bumped, and signature changed to context in four places, two of them comments.
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21:20 sjohnson netsplits verboten
21:20 cognominal rakudo:  class A { has $.a = 10 } ; my $a .= new(); say $a.a
21:21 p6eval rakudo 1d4928:  ( no output )
21:21 cognominal ng:  class A { has $.a = 10 } ; my $a .= new(); say $a.a
21:21 p6eval ng d0de15: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
21:21 lumi joined #perl6
21:24 ash_ cognominal: i think you forgot an A
21:24 ash_ ng:  class A { has $.a = 10 } ; my A $a .= new(); say $a.a
21:24 p6eval ng d0de15: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
21:26 sjohnson hi ash
21:27 cognominal I thought that the point of the .= operator was to omit the type when instanciating
21:28 sjohnson which implementation is ng?
21:29 cognominal it is a new implementation branch forked from rakudo, once it will be mature enough it will land back to the main branch
21:29 Tene sjohnson: rakudo's development branch
21:29 sjohnson Tene: o
21:29 cognominal In the mean time neither branch is very satisfying :)
21:30 sahadev joined #perl6
21:30 PerlJam conventional wisdom is that ng will become master within one week or so.
21:30 pmichaud $x .= y  is just a shortcut for   $x = $x.y
21:30 pmichaud just like $x += 2   is a short cut for $x = $x + 2
21:31 ash_ cognominal: for .= new you'd need to have the variabled typed, like my A $a .= new() translated to my A $a = A.new();
21:32 pmichaud the variable doesn't have to be typed, it just has to be initialized to the protoobject
21:32 pmichaud i.e.,  my $a = A;   $a .= new;   also works
21:32 pmichaud (typing a variable initializes it to the protoobject)
21:32 cognominal thx, I as confused
21:32 ash_ yeah, true, pmichard can explain it better than me, listen to him
21:35 PerlJam still, my A $a .= new; should work.
21:35 pmichaud I think there's a problem with .= in ng branch
21:36 PerlJam From the error, I'd guess that there's a problem initializing $a with A() in  my A $a;
21:36 bartolin joined #perl6
21:36 ash_ is there a reason eval bot dies when you define a class in the master branch?
21:36 pmichaud ng:  my A $a;  say $a.WHAT;
21:36 p6eval ng d0de15: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
21:37 cognominal ng: say "hi!"
21:37 p6eval ng d0de15: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
21:37 pmichaud > class A { has $.a; };   my A $a;  say $a.WHAT;
21:37 pmichaud Mu()
21:37 pmichaud PerlJam++ ftw
21:37 bartolin hello all
21:37 pnate joined #perl6
21:37 * ash_ waves
21:38 PerlJam something is brokenish with p6eval.  It's taking a long time to regen the perl6 executable.
21:38 PerlJam ng: say "oof"
21:38 p6eval ng d0de15: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
21:38 PerlJam It's been  that way for more than 10 minutes
21:38 PerlJam rakudo: say "oof"
21:38 p6eval rakudo 1d4928: oof␤
21:39 PerlJam oh, I guess the ng branch is broken due to the recent updates of PARROT_REVISION, etc.  ?
21:39 ash_ how does p6eval make ng? shouldn't it be using --gen-parrot?
21:40 PerlJam ash_: wish I knew
21:40 pmichaud oh, I bet the revert caused problems.
21:40 pmichaud when the 2.0 update was put in, it updated to Parrot 2.0.0, which fails
21:40 ash_ does anyone know how to access it? i don't have that kind of permission
21:40 pmichaud then when it was reverted, p6eval is still using 2.0.0, because it's  >= the current PARROT_REVISION
21:41 ash_ those silly >= that might need to be = : P
21:41 pmichaud well, in general we want >=
21:41 pmichaud p6eval is a bizarre case, as is the case of reverting a PARROT_REVISION change
21:41 ash_ yeah, sure, in general
21:41 pmichaud it might not matter soon -- I think I may have a patch to get ng working with 2.0.0
21:43 pmichaud spectesting now.
21:43 PerlJam who runs p6eval?
21:43 pmichaud in general, I think moritz++ handles it
21:45 ash_ ah, well, if pmichaud++'s patch doesn't fix it, we can bug him when he's around next
21:51 cognominal what's new with Parrot 2.0.0?
21:51 pmichaud argggh, my patch didn't fix it.
21:52 pmichaud looks like I'll have to track this one down a bit further.
21:52 PerlJam cognominal: http://www.parrot.org/news/2010/Parrot-2.0.0
21:52 pmichaud ugh, looks like a lexicals problem.
21:52 cognominal thx
21:59 pmichaud or an eval() problem
22:01 ash_ i think colomon said that when they tried to move ng to trunk parrot over the weekend they came to the conclusion the it was an eval issue
22:04 colomon That's what I thought they said.
22:04 colomon For some mysterious definition of "they".
22:05 colomon Maybe chromatic or somebody like that?  Not one of our Rakudo "regulars".
22:05 * PerlJam wonders what a "rakudo regular" is
22:06 colomon http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-01-17#i_1907489
22:06 PerlJam cognominal: note that chromatic did the Dec release for rakudo  :)
22:06 pmichaud eval doesn't seem to be able to even parse.
22:07 PerlJam er, s/cognominal/colomon/
22:07 colomon PerlJam: Someone whose name I see often enough that I think of them as a person instead of a random login.
22:07 colomon (often enough on #perl6)
22:07 colomon chromatic being the exception that proves the rule, or something.
22:07 pmichaud oh, maybe it can't parse phasers.
22:07 colomon anyway, that link is the snatch of conversation I was remembering.
22:08 colomon and bacek was the mysterious person whose name I didn't remember.
22:08 ash_ okay, completely off topic but when i think if phasers i think of star trek
22:09 colomon possibly referring to conversation on #parrot.
22:09 colomon ash_: that's completely intentional.
22:10 * PerlJam doesn't recall a STUN block in the Synopses
22:10 PerlJam ;)
22:10 pmichaud eval() is failing to parse "my $x = 3;"
22:11 pmichaud although it's able to do "my $x"
22:12 * pmichaud sees how to track this down
22:13 pugs_svn r29569 | wayland++ | I suggest that these changes constitute an implementation (in POD) of Richard Hainsworth's
22:13 pugs_svn r29569 | suggestion
22:17 bartolin I'm totally new here, but I've got a question.
22:17 pmichaud ohhhh ick ick ick ick
22:17 bartolin I hope it's neither too silly nor does it disturb you.
22:17 bartolin The question is: Can I write something like
22:17 bartolin class Chessplayer { has Array of Int @.old_ratings; }
22:18 bartolin I want to make sure that "old_rating" are integers and nothing else.
22:18 pmichaud bartolin: it'd be   { has Int @.old_ratings; }
22:18 pmichaud the @ already means "Array"
22:18 Tene bartolin: array of array o fint?
22:18 Tene Yeah.
22:18 bartolin Ahh!
22:18 Tene pmichaud: ick ick ick?
22:18 bartolin Thanks a lot!
22:18 pmichaud my @ns := $outer_ctx<current_namespace>.get_name;
22:19 pmichaud contexts no longer support the hash interface
22:19 pmichaud guess I'll pir:: this one
22:19 Tene That would do it.
22:21 mikehh_ joined #perl6
22:22 sjohnson so tene... hows it going?
22:22 bartolin Hrm. I tried class Chessplayer { has Int @.old_ratings; } but this doesn't work:
22:22 bartolin my $player = Chessplayer.new( old_ratings => [2200,2150] );
22:23 bartolin if gives: Array assignment type check failed; expected Int, but got Array
22:23 pmichaud I'm not sure that will work.
22:23 pmichaud [2200,2150]  isn't declared as an Array of Int -- it's an Array of Object
22:24 pmichaud (yes, this is a weird section of the spec at the moment)
22:24 bartolin Aha.
22:24 PerlJam seems to work fine in ng  ;)
22:24 pmichaud PerlJam: maybe because it's not doing parameterized type checking
22:25 bartolin So there is (ATM) no easy way to declare an Array of Int (for "old_ratings")?
22:25 pmichaud declare, yes, assign, no.
22:26 bartolin Ahh, okay. Thanks a lot for the explanation!
22:26 pmichaud although you might try    old_ratings => (2200,2150)
22:26 pmichaud although I suspect that fails to bind for the same reason
22:28 bartolin Oops. I thought, I tried that before asking. But it gives no error. I have to test it in detail ...
22:35 bartolin pmichaud: Thanks a lot.   old_ratings => (2200,2150)   seems to work for me.
22:35 pmichaud yay, down to just two errors in ng (using Tene++'s patch)
22:36 pmichaud oh wait, more than two
22:36 pmichaud still, much closer than before
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23:05 * jnthn is back
23:09 lucs joined #perl6
23:11 frettled in black?
23:12 |Jedai| joined #perl6
23:13 frettled I was thinking about trying to explain how the (slightly delayed) January release of Rakudo is important because it's going to be based on ng (it still is, right?), but I'm kindof stuck; it's easy to say that it's a rewrite to make it easier to actually implement the spec, but, uhm.  Hm.
23:13 frettled That's what I get for not being more involved in Rakudo myself.  :)
23:16 frettled I guess what I'm struggling with is generating positive buzz.
23:17 pmichaud I'm planning to issue an announcement in a couple of hours
23:18 pmichaud the main reason for the regression is that we've had to refactor a lot of rakudo's internals in order to properly implement the spec
23:18 sjohnson hi frettled
23:18 pmichaud yay, ng now passes on parrot 2.0.0
23:19 jnthn January release is haz a delay?
23:19 jnthn pmichaud++ # yak shaving so we can run on 2.0.0
23:19 pmichaud jnthn: yes, I've decided to push the release back up to a week to give a little bit more time to see what can be done with the ng branch
23:19 pmichaud I was leaning that way already, concensus on #perl6 this morning was that this approach made more sense
23:20 pmichaud also I don't see a strong reason for releasing another old-master Rakudo since not much has changed there
23:20 pmichaud someone who really wants the more complete version can just get Rakudo #24
23:20 jnthn pmichaud: OK, but I highly doubt ng will be really ready *that* far ahead of the February release.
23:20 pmichaud oh, my plan is to make ng the new master within the week
23:20 payload joined #perl6
23:20 jnthn That's too optimistic.
23:21 pmichaud even if it's a significant regression.
23:21 jnthn Then why do it?
23:21 pmichaud because otherwise I'm afraid we're stagnating a bit.
23:21 jnthn I agree it *has* to be before the Feb release.
23:21 pmichaud well, I had been thinking it *has* to be before Jan release
23:21 pmichaud I'm not sure I want to push back to Feb.
23:21 frettled pmichaud++: oh, passing on parrot 2, that's nice!
23:22 frettled jnthn: the catch-phrase «release early, release often» comes to mind ;)
23:23 * colomon is thinking there will be much working like crazy to get ng ready in the next week....
23:23 frettled sjohnson: oh, hai, forgot about you (sorry)
23:23 pmichaud several people have commented to me that we should go ahead and make the ng branch into master
23:23 jnthn pmichaud: On their own heads be it.
23:23 ash_ jnthn if you know of anymore bugs i can help with let me know
23:23 frettled I think it's good to do so now, because it gives us more time using it.
23:24 pmichaud I think I should have list assignment working tonight.
23:25 frettled My argument is a bit weird, but it's based on one kind of typical human behaviour: we use what's the "standard", follow the flock.
23:25 pmichaud frettled: right, I think we'll all have a bit of extra incentive on things if we go ahead and bite the bullet now
23:25 c9s__ joined #perl6
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23:25 pmichaud if it doesn't work, I'm willing to take the blame.
23:26 frettled Bonus for you guys who work on ng: I believe that making the ng branch master a bit early will lead to more feedback.
23:26 pmichaud well, as long as we don't thrash around handling the "feature XYZ used to work but doesn't work" sorts of comments
23:26 frettled :D
23:28 frettled pmichaud: I'm sure you'll get a bunch of nice masakbugs.
23:28 jnthn ash_: I noted a test yesterday...I think it was S02-builtin-data-types/anon_block.t
23:28 colomon I do wish we had proto fully working, or something like that, so we could smoke test the features people are actually using.... a lot of the spectests seem very obscure.
23:28 jnthn ash_: It may not be too much to make that one work.
23:29 frettled colomon: yeah, that would help a lot, too.
23:30 pmichaud one thing that would help is for people to find other files (e.g. release_guide, DOCS, etc) that have changed in the master branch and make sure they're up-to-date in the ng branch
23:30 ash_ jnthn: if your still doing role stuff, http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=71554 has a patch i amde a while back that may or may not still be applicable
23:31 colomon do we have a list of what doesn't work in ng right now?  I mean, the big things?
23:31 frettled pmichaud: so I should pull the current version now, and then I can compare with what I get afterwards.  I'll do that, and if I can get my life sorted properly again, I'll chip in. :)
23:32 pmichaud colomon: I'll probably start making a list as soon as I have the already know big things out of the way
23:32 pmichaud those being:  list assignment, hashes, various grammar-related items
23:33 colomon is there still the mucked up dispatching of operators?  (er multis in general?)
23:33 pmichaud I'm guessing yes, but what's mucked up?
23:33 jnthn ash_: Thanks.
23:33 jnthn pmichaud: Remember that Parrot issue that is a bug but isn't a bug?
23:33 colomon what jnthn says.
23:33 pmichaud chromatic has that fixed in parrot trunk, I think.
23:34 pmichaud or is about to have that fixed.
23:34 pmichaud doesn't help for the current ng, now.
23:34 pmichaud *no.
23:34 jnthn OK.
23:34 colomon pmichaud: make the list somewhere we can all edit it?  :)
23:34 pmichaud colomon: that's what git is for :-)
23:34 colomon Off to orchestra now, looking forward to finding out what happens while I am out.  :)
23:34 pmichaud or if we need non-rakudo committers to be able to edit, then do it on the github wiki
23:35 pmichaud let's just do it on the wiki for now, then
23:35 * pmichaud creates a page
23:35 frettled \o/
23:36 pmichaud http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/rakudo/ng-major-features-needed
23:36 pmichaud feel free to add to the list
23:38 jnthn pmichaud: I'm happy to take on the last one of those, but not today. :-)
23:39 pmichaud jnthn: that's fine
23:39 pmichaud just pushed updated ng to github
23:39 pmichaud ENOPHENNY
23:40 pmichaud Tene: you don't need to work on the context conversion for 2.0.0 in ng branch -- already took care of it (was mostly dealing with lexical and outer context issues)
23:40 dalek joined #perl6
23:40 pmichaud okay, time for a short break, then list assignment.
23:43 ash_ ng: say 'test?'
23:43 p6eval ng d0de15: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤

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